Rabbi Friedman - The Soul and the Afterlife

[Dave]

Jun 7, 2020 18:15:13 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Dave writes: "Proportional Punishment
Some a little – some a lot – some never get out
And some are granted a divine pardon

There are many aspects of our theology that differ.
Scripture does not speak of the dead receiving "Proportional Punishment ".
That is a Catholic doctrine.

In Hebrew when a person dies, they remain in the grave, nothing happens to them.

Then why does every Jew on the planet sit shiva for 7 days than then pray the kaddish for another 11 months?
Stop pretending you understand the Jewish culture or religion



Rabbi Friedman - The Soul and the Afterlife: Where Do We Go From Here?
Presented at the Sinai Indaba annual Torah convention of the foremost international Jewish leaders and thinkers - Nov 8, 2012

[Deleted]

AM I going to hell?
Ask the rabbi on campus. I did
Rabbi said, we don't believe in hell?

I won't to know am I going to hell, or not?

Do we know what hell is?
Is there life after death?

Life lives. Life can't die. Death can't die.

Can a living thing die? no
Body borrow life from the soul.
Body returns to dust, soul go back to being a soul, among souls.

Continued life of the living soul.

What lives on?

Your memories, your wisdom, pains and pleasures, live on.
Life can't die.

Life lives, bodies go back to dust.

The rabbi is mixing the term "rucwach" with "nepesh".

Sure the Holy Spirit takes the records of your character back to GOD,
but it is not a soul, its your character, the spirit, that the Holy Spirit empowers you to be, you, with GOD, in relationship.

Does our rabbi say, the soul speaks in the after life? or does the thoughts that very day perish?

Shalom

These are Jewish texts, not Hebrew texts, speak of things from the precepts and traditions of men:

"For three days after death the soul hovers over the body intending to reenter it." (Lev. Rabbah 18:1)

"At the hour of a man's departure from this world, his father and relatives gather round him, and he sees them and recognizes them, and likewise all with whom he associated in this world, they accompany his soul to the place where it is to abide." (Zohar 1, 217b)

According to the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, "When a man is on the point of leaving this world…the Shechinah shows herself to him, and then the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah" (Zohar III, 53a).

"In the World to Come there is no eating or drinking, nor jealousy, or animosity or rivalry—but the righteous sit with crowns on their heads and enjoy the radiance of the Shechinah." (Talmud Brachot 17a)

"In the World-to-Come there is no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies... The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body." (Talmud Ta'anit 11a)

"When a man departs to his eternal home, all his deeds are enumerated before him." (Talmud Ta'anit 11a)

"Angelic messengers help the person complete the process of life review by counting up the days that a man has lived, the sins that he has committed and all the works that he has accomplished." (Zohar I:79a)

"But the souls of the virtuous are in the hands of God, no torment shall ever touch them. In the eyes of the unwise, they did appear to die, but they are at peace." (Wisdom of Solomon 3:2)

They are in direct conflict with the Hebrew texts.

Shalom

[Dave]

These are Jewish texts, not Hebrew texts,
These Jewish text written in Hebrew by Torah Hebrews are not Hebrew text - I don’t get it

speak of things from the precepts and traditions of men:
Says Roman Christendom - the Jews value and appreciate all of their heritage not just that portion allowed by Rome

According to the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, "When a man is on the point of leaving this world…the Shechinah shows herself to him, and then the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah" (Zohar III, 53a).

You do know that the Shechina is the female aspect of God = the Holy Spirit
Gods’s female nature among man

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

"In the World to Come there is no eating or drinking, nor jealousy, or animosity or rivalry—but the righteous sit with crowns on their heads and enjoy the radiance of the Shechinah." (Talmud Brachot 17a)

So - you do not accept the New Heaven and Earth promise
I thought you and Ellen White make a big deal about it - use it to prove that prophesy for the Jews dose NOT have to be fulfilled

"In the World-to-Come there is no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies... The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body." (Talmud Ta'anit 11a)

Joh 8:31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; 32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

"When a man departs to his eternal home, all his deeds are enumerated before him." (Talmud Ta'anit 11a)
Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Jer 16:17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways; they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity concealed from mine eyes.

"Angelic messengers help the person complete the process of life review by counting up the days that a man has lived, the sins that he has committed and all the works that he has accomplished." (Zohar I:79a)

"But the souls of the virtuous are in the hands of God, no torment shall ever touch them. In the eyes of the unwise, they did appear to die, but they are at peace." (Wisdom of Solomon 3:2)
John 3:16 do I need to quote it for you

They are in direct conflict with the Hebrew texts.
Really? How do you know?
after death the soul hovers over the body intending to reenter it." (Lev. Rabbah 18:1)
I don’t know what the foundation of this is - but this is why the first 3 days of shiva are the most intense
Please show me the scripture that this statement violates

"At the hour of a man's departure from this world, his father and relatives gather round him, and he sees them and recognizes them, and likewise all with whom he associated in this world, they accompany his soul to the place where it is to abide." (Zohar 1, 217b)

I don’t know what the foundation of this is - but does this change anything - does it alter the theology so much that we have to ban everything Jewish
Again - Please show me the scripture that this statement violates

[Dave]

Life lives, bodies go back to dust.
The soul is immortal / eternal - life lives
The body is animal and is not eternal
Is this so confusing?

The rabbi is mixing the term "rucwach" with "nepesh".
These two terms are so close related it is difficult to tell them apart sometimes

H5315 - nephesh - soul / life / person / mind / heart / creature / body
Gnostic = locality
H7307 - rûach - spirit / wind / breath,
Gnostic - no locality - the expression of soul or mind over a distance

Example - The Trinity
God is unimaginable - way beyond our ability to understand
But we experience Him in two way His nephesh = Christ - a locality - a person
Or we experience His rûach = The Holy Spirit - God expressed through a distance - spirit

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

I will discuss two aspects with you:

According to the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, "When a man is on the point of leaving this world…the Shechinah shows herself to him, and then the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah" (Zohar III, 53a).

When a man is on the point of dying and leaving his body, the Holy Spirit shows herself to him, and the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Holy Spirit.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No mention of ruwach here.

Ge 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Ruwach mentioned here as the phrase "holy spirit of living"

Ge 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Here both Hebrew words in Gen 2:7 and Gen 6:17 are here as one phrase.

So the Holy Spirit administrates the breath of living in all creatures.

So Nephesh = Dust + Holy Spirit administration.

Or

Nephesh = Dust + Holy Spirit relationship partnership.


Is there anything eternal the person owns? No, however the word "spirit" also administrates our character, the bits of the divine we choose to develop "as our own",
so our "character" or "spirit" is ours, we take to heaven, the "bit" that makes this relationship unique, or "us".

Does Scripture mention this?

Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
(KJV)

Our records of character return via the Holy Spirit to GOD.

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The ruwach goes forth, not the nephesh. So when we die, the body and thoughts also end, the holy spirit returns to GOD with our character record.

Now the traditions and precepts of Jewish writings show this:

According to the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, "When a man is on the point of leaving this world…the Shechinah shows herself to him, and then the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah" (Zohar III, 53a).

When a man is on the point of dying and leaving his body, the Holy Spirit shows herself to him, and the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Holy Spirit.

This is not what the Hebrew Scriptures show.

You make the claim the Jewish writings are also torah teachings?

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

What is torah and the witnesses to torah?

Lu 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Ac 28:23 ¶ And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
(KJV)

Moses and the prophets. Moses wrote we assume the first five books in Hebrew, the ancient Hebrew or paleohebrew. Prophets add witness to the books of Moses.

So Moses comes first, and true prophet witnesses add to Moses Hebrew.
I would suspect false prophets writes false teachings, and true prophets write true teachings.

Most of my texts come from Genesis, a book of Moses. Eccel and Palms are prophets adding to Moses, in harmony.

Zohar III, 53a, is a prophetic writing Not in harmony with these.

Shalom

[Dave]

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No mention of ruwach here. -
When the doctor told you to breath - I bet he was speaking about air - included are things like nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, argon and much more

Ruwach mentioned here as the phrase "holy spirit of living"
So the Holy Spirit administrates the breath of living in all creatures.
So Nephesh = Dust + Holy Spirit administration.
Or
Nephesh = Dust + Holy Spirit relationship partnership.
Interesting - you are saying that created beings are (Nephesh = Dust - Spirit)
Which is the same thing as saying (Nephesh = Dust + Ruwach)
OK - The Holy Spirit is the sustainer of all thing - this was your lesson to share

The ruwach goes forth, not the nephesh. So when we die, the body and thoughts also end, the holy spirit returns to GOD with our character record.
YES! spirit = expression through a distance - movement

Now the traditions and precepts of Jewish writings show this:

According to the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, "When a man is on the point of leaving this world…the Shechinah shows herself to him, and then the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah" (Zohar III, 53a).

When a man is on the point of dying and leaving his body, the Holy Spirit shows herself to him, and the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Holy Spirit. (If it is saved - we are talking about the saved)

This is not what the Hebrew Scriptures show.

Given that the Shechinah is the Holy Spirit - and the Holy Spirit is just the Spirit of God
So - when you die - you do not believe that you will meet your maker?
Is this your point?

You make the claim the Jewish writings are also torah teachings?
NO I DON’T - stop putting words in my mouth
The Torah is just one of the many Jewish writings the Rabbinic community find valuable for illumination and instruction - it is an entirely different attitude that following Rome stamp of approval of what is valuable or not

Tell why you repeatedly suggest the Catholic Church has the authority to tell Jews what they can and cannot read

So Moses comes first, and true prophet witnesses add to Moses Hebrew.
I would suspect false prophets writes false teachings, and true prophets write true teachings.
YES Curious isn’t it = people believe that the authors of the agl also wrote heresy at the same time
Paul, Peter, James,and John

Zohar III, 53a, is a prophetic writing Not in harmony with these.
So the Zohar - which is a set of Rabbinic Commentary -s not in Harmony with the same text it makes comments on?

OR - you do not fathom its depth - that is a possibility

[Deleted]

Dave the Bible collection scrolls of Hebrew was finalised (except for Rev) as early in 55AD, because the Dead Sea scrolls have all scrolls there. The NT ones in Greek, the OT ones in Hebrew, some paleohebrew.

55AD is hundreds of years before any Catholics came on the scene and just a few years after Jesus left for heaven.

Dave writes: So - when you die - you do not believe that you will meet your maker?
Is this your point?

When you die, you also die, nothing happens. During your resurrection we will all meet our Creator. Only righteous ones meet the Creator first, to be with Him forever after He comes to earth, in the Second Coming. The wicked meet the Creator later, only to see what they missed, and finally die again in a state of eternal non-existence.


Rob writes: " The ruwach goes forth, not the nephesh. So when we die, the body and thoughts also end, the holy spirit returns to GOD with our character record.

Dave writes: YES! spirit = expression through a distance - movement

Rob replies: You cannot agree with all these words....Which do you agree to?

When we die:
The ruwach goes forth, returns to GOD
The nephesh needs a body, so ceases to be nephesh.
The holy spirit returns to GOD with our character record.

You just agreed to all these statements


According to the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, "When a man is on the point of leaving this world…the Shechinah shows herself to him, and then the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah" (Zohar III, 53a).

The Holy Spirit does NOT show herself to your soul (nephesh) and your (nephesh) does not go out in joy an love to meet the Holy Spirit.

This text is WRONG.

SO how can you agree with me?

The Rabbi says life lives, the dead cannot live.

Dave writes elsewhere: "Life lives, bodies go back to dust.
The soul is immortal / eternal - life lives

The nephesh is NOT immortal, nor eternal.

Only the Holy Spirit is immortal and eternal.

The Rabbi mixes two Hebrew words "ruwach" and "nephesh".

Ruwach is C2 and nephesh is E.

So your E = M (dust) + C2.

When you die

M - C2 = nothing. There is no living E, it ceases to be. M returns to soil.
C2 returns to GOD.

You only exist in partnership with GOD, without GOD you cease to exist. simple.

Only GOD is immortal and eternal.

Shalom

[Dave]

Dave the Bible collection scrolls of Hebrew was finalised (except for Rev) as early in 55AD,
Agreed
because the Dead Sea scrolls have all scrolls there.
If the dead Sea Scrolls validate the Jewish Cannon according to you – lets discuss the War Scroll
The NT ones in Greek,
16 small fragments of one possible text – does not factually make the entire agl was present
You stretch the facts
the OT ones in Hebrew, some paleohebrew.
And several you will reject as cannon

What of all the Jewish literature that existed from 200 BC.
Enoch was there!
You say it also not relevent or ignore it exist

55AD is hundreds of years before any Catholics came on the scene and just a few years after Jesus left for heaven.
Robert – Irenaeus first distributed Roman Index in 90AD

Dave writes: So - when you die - you do not believe that you will meet your maker?
Is this your point?
When you die, you also die, nothing happens.
Not consistent with 1 Sam 28

During your resurrection we will all meet our Creator.
OK – so you will meet your maker

Dave writes: YES! spirit = expression through a distance - movement
Rob replies: You cannot agree with all these words....Which do you agree to?
Let me say it again
Soul = locality
Spirit is the expression of the soul through a distance


According to the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, "When a man is on the point of leaving this world…the Shechinah shows herself to him, and then the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah" (Zohar III, 53a).

The Holy Spirit does NOT show herself to your soul (nephesh) and your (nephesh) does not go out in joy an love to meet the Holy Spirit.
I really do not see your issue – you invent a word game
Question – is each and every death absolutely the same – where is your proof
The Zohar is definitely speaking of a saved soul – a Christian – meeting the Trinity seems joyous to me

Why isn't it facinating to you that 1000s of yeats of Rabbinic commentary sound so Christian


The Rabbi says life lives, the dead cannot live.
Dave writes elsewhere: "Life lives, bodies go back to dust.
The soul is immortal / eternal - life lives

The nephesh is NOT immortal, nor eternal.
Hmmmm? What a non- Jewish and non-Christian idea
At the Great White throne judgment – you say all the believers are gifted with eternal life
Why does God have to throw any to their second death?
If the are not eternal beings they all will just die out on their own

NO – at the Great White Throne Judgement
If you believe you simple continue
If you don’t – you are cast to the death of soul/spirit

Only the Holy Spirit is immortal and eternal.
To you this is a separate being than God or Christ
So are God and Christ mortal in your world – this is what you are saying
Or – the HS = God = Christ and they are all eternal beings

Only GOD is immortal and eternal.
A moment ago you said that oit was your other being HS that was eternal
Are you confused – or they are not two different being after all

[Deleted]

Dave you write confusing, mixing the topic.

Rob wrote: The nephesh is NOT immortal, nor eternal.
Dave wrote: Hmmmm? What a non- Jewish and non-Christian idea

But it is the true Hebrew idea, the word nephesh has two form verb and noun
the verb means energize and the noun means energy.

When the dust and divinity come together, the humans live with energy.
When the divinity leaves the human, the energy goes away and ceases to be.

Only the ruwach, the Father and the Son, are divine, immortal and members of the elohiym family kind.

Humans are creatures, from dust partnered by GOD, we become living energy.
Apart from GOD we would cease to exist.

Now if you think nephesh is immortal, show me a Hebrew text.

You bring up 1 Sam 28, the witch causing a deception, so Samuel's voice comes back. Saul uses evil, to get answers. God uses the evil to give him his answer.

Question: does this mean the evil is true?

Is this how we study Scripture, chose the contexts we like and ignore the ones we don't like?

Question: so it's OK to go to a medium, and contact the dead?


Dave writes: "Soul = locality
Spirit is the expression of the soul through a distance

I have no idea what your talking about, and this is NOT answering my ideas. SO please unpack what your saying here? Thank you.

Shalom

[Dave]

Rob wrote: The nephesh is NOT immortal, nor eternal.
Dave wrote: Hmmmm? What a non- Jewish and non-Christian idea

Dave -
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

From God we came and to God we return

Jews believe that we are immortal – our essence – our soul – call it whatever you need to
That spark within you began in heaven – not with conception
That spark within you does not extinguish when your mortal body dies
That spark within us – returns to God – from which it came

But it is the true Hebrew idea, the word nephesh has two form verb and noun
the verb means energize and the noun means energy.
The noun for me = soul - you could say it is the energy within me – my essence - OK
The verb for me = the energy that energizes our essence – OK I can see that – and that energy came from God via the HS that sustains all things everywhere - sure

Rob -When the dust and divinity come together, the humans live with energy.
Dave - YES! -= we are Soul + (Mind/Body) – and the Soul is the energy of our essence - OK

Rob - when the divinity leaves the human, the energy goes away and ceases to be.
Dave - Comatose - dead inside – OK - sure

Rob - Only the ruwach, the Father and the Son, are divine,
Dave - all three aspect of God are divine = Creator – Male Christ – Female Holy Ruwach
Because all three are God 3 in 1

Rob - Only the ruwach, the Father and the Son, are divine, Immortal
Dave - So now none of the angels are immortal as well
Do you have a story of any angel being put to death or dyeing of old age – other than Rev 20
Do all of the angels get thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is the death of spirit?
What did the angels do wrong? – did all of them turn away from God?

Rob - Humans are creatures, from dust partnered by GOD, we become living energy.
Apart from GOD we would cease to exist.
Dave - DUH – without God nothing exist

Now if you think nephesh is immortal, show me a Hebrew text.

1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
You say – when we die nothing happens
Scripture says – not all – the death and heaven experience is different for all of us - Proportional
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruptibility , and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible will have put on incorruptibility and this mortal will have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Only immortal being in heaven – no mortals at all

Eze 18:4 Behold, every living soul is Mine—the soul of father as well as the soul of son—both are Mine. Behold, the soul who sins is the one who will die.

Who dies? – You imply that we all die and some are gifted with eternal life as a reward
I hold – we are all created immortal – it is up to us to screw it up
Death is a punishment – not the status quo

You bring up 1 Sam 28, the witch causing a deception, so Samuel's voice comes back. Saul uses evil, to get answers. God uses the evil to give him his answer.
God uses the ra to facilitate his will – you finally get it
For months you have been arguing that this idea was impossible
I am glad to see that you have finally come around

Question: so it's OK to go to a medium, and contact the dead?

May 31, 2020 9:04:38 GMT -5 Dave said:

NOW – why in the world would any Christian even consider speaking to an archon?

The Koran has an excellent version of mediums
You think they are speaking to the dead – but they are actually speaking to a Jinn imposter
Posing as your dead person – they have enough knowledge to make you believe them
But all the rest is a lie

Islamic Jinn = Gnostic Archon

[Deleted]

Dave writes: "God uses the ra to facilitate his will – you finally get it
For months you have been arguing that this idea was impossible
I am glad to see that you have finally come around

You might be right, God uses the stiff necks from the Exodus and gave them further stiff neck things to do, even the entire old covenant is full of things any human powered self, can do. God even go the stiff necks to kill the Amorites, after their iniquity was full.

Is there anything wrong with self powered righteousness? Not really, but you can't be saved from it? You have to support Jesus powers which work in you instead. GOD waits for the babe and snatches most of us from the fire as firebrands, dealing with us in our ra, hoping to save some of us, at just the right moment.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Paul summarizes both covenants here very nicely.


You agree without GOD nothing exists.

If the saved put on immortality, this means we continue forever in partnership with GOD. God cannot create humans with divinity. Divinity only comes from being already divinity from eternity. But you can be partnered with GOD for eternity.

You ask can angels die?
Do not the wicked angels along with Satan, the cherub who sinned, finally go to the lake of fire and cease to exist?

The rabbi speaks, God created a higher universe order and a lower universe order.
SO the man volunteers to enter the lower order in order to fix it. Really?

Why would GOD create a dysfunctional universe in the first place? The Rabbi suggests GOD is a creator of both good and bad universes... a lower world that needs fixing...

Scripture does not say this, the so called dysfunction came into our world because Adam sinned. And before Adam a "cherub sinned", the one verse of Hebrew you reject, as you told me.

This "spark" you speak of, the comes from the elohiym powers via the Holy Spirit, is not owned by you, ever, it is given in partnership, you are only a steward, never an owner. Already you make proud claims of ownership of the "spark" , the tree does not claim, I am alive, I own my spark? The fish does not claim, I own my "spark". God gives the "energy" to whatever matter it wills to give it. You cannot claim ownership of partnership, that would be a sin:

Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.

Your doing this here, it is a common sin of us all. We become living energy and we boast, I am a owner of my spark, my destiny is mine? No

Once you choose to be partnered to GOD , you give up free will, All things flow through you, from GOD, including your speech and your walking and your joy. The freedom you have is only via GOD. We call this robotic servitude but it is true freedom. Our talking and walking and doing comes empowered by GOD. We must never lose our dependency, we never become independent, just as the members of GOD are also never independent.

JOB was given much, and taken away much. Notice what He says:

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(KJV)

Only the redeemer liveth, not JOB, he is a vessel to exclaim this fact. His energy is not his, He speaks of who this energy that lives is, His redeemer.

Shalom Happy Sabbath.

[Dave]

Dave writes: "God uses the ra to facilitate his will – you finally get it
For months you have been arguing that this idea was impossible
I am glad to see that you have finally come around

You might be right,

If the saved put on immortality, this means we continue forever in partnership with GOD. God cannot create humans with divinity.
Human never become gods - OK - what is your point?

You ask can angels die?
Actually I asked -
Do you have a story of any angel being put to death or dyeing of old age – other than Rev 20
So you answered - Do not the wicked angels along with Satan, the cherub who sinned, finally go to the lake of fire and cease to exist?

OK - I’ll play your game
Where is your scripture that says 1/3rd of all your angels in heaven are thrown into the Lake of Fire
There is no such scripture
Rev 20 says 3 beings - The Beast - satan - and the false prophet
You told me that meant - you one and only cherub satan and two humans
I will quote you - if you deny this

The rabbi speaks, God created a higher universe order and a lower universe order.
Actually - God created 7 universes / dimensions / realms of existence about us
The first dimension is a singularity that is omnipotent, and omniscient
The second dimension - is a planar reality that supports the 3rd
The third dimension - is out world - it is the lowest world with definition
above us = 4th, 5th, 6th, 7, 8, 9, and 10

SO the man volunteers to enter the lower order in order to fix it. Really?
Man has Free Will - God will not force you - your choices are your choices - definition of Free Will

Why would GOD create a dysfunctional universe in the first place? The Rabbi suggests GOD is a creator of both good and bad universes... a lower world that needs fixing...
You do not think our reality requires fixing?

And before Adam a "cherub sinned", the one verse of Hebrew you reject, as you told me.
I reject that is an expression of angelic Free Will in opposition to God
That is Catholic mythology

Just a moment ago you agreed - "God uses the ra to facilitate his will “

This "spark" you speak of, the comes from the elohiym powers via the Holy Spirit, is not owned by you, ever,
We were created in heaven - we existed in heaven prior to our conception
The spark owned by me - it is me
It is this spark that will stand judgment

it is given in partnership, you are only a steward, never an owner.
Of your animal shell - we are just passing through - on our souljourn

Already you make proud claims of ownership of the "spark" , the tree does not claim, I am alive, I own my spark? The fish does not claim, I own my "spark". God gives the "energy" to whatever matter it wills to give it. You cannot claim ownership of partnership, that would be a sin:
And the difference between biological forms and those that contain the breath of life

Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
100% Gnostic - they forgot, what they once knew - YES!

Your doing this here, it is a common sin of us all. We become living energy and we boast, I am a owner of my spark, my destiny is mine? No
So you believe in predestination?
Why study - why becvome a Christian
If your fate is predetermined - you can do nothing to change it

Once you choose to be partnered to GOD , you give up free will,
So - no Christian in the history of the world has ever turned away?

All things flow through you, from GOD, including your speech and your walking and your joy. The freedom you have is only via GOD. We call this robotic servitude

Now who has no free will and is just a robot - man
So in your world - angels have free will to oppose God
but man has no free will to do the same
You really are confused

JOB was given much, and taken away much. Notice what He says:

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(KJV)
Only the redeemer liveth, not JOB, he is a vessel to exclaim this fact. His energy is not his, He speaks of who this energy that lives is, His redeemer.
I wish I followed your thinking
The fact that Jesus Christ if the savior and will be there at the end for us - proves that Job doesn’t exist?
Or Job is actually Christ in man’s clothing pretending to be Job

[Deleted]

I am sorry you don't understand.

So Dave according to you and the Jews, the soul is eternal and living, therefore cannot ever die.

So what happens to the wicked people, the ones the refuse to accept GOD, what happen to their eternal soul?

I suppose the body dies, as bodies separated from the soul dies, but what happens to the wicked person's soul?

So no angels ever sinned according to you. And mankind was in this lower ordered world to fix what exactly. the archons who sin? What is exactly sin?
What happens to the archons and the children they fathered, do they have souls too? And where do these souls go? How is this fixing this lower world?

Why do you have beings thrown into the lake of fire, if mankind was supposed to fix the lower world, please explain, why they didn't fix up everything?

You don't answer why God created a lower world full of archons, who are almost the same as humans, for they sexually mate with us. Yet what happens to them and the children of archons?

In fact Scripture declares the entire universe is wearing down, so how does man fix this, the laws of chaos and entropy that wears out our lower world?

Please explain what exactly does mankind fix? If GOD creates all things, including the second birth process we call salvation, I don't get the impression mankind fixes anything.

This lower world thing that need fixing, has so many questions that Scripture doesn't answer... I would love you to write your responses...

You asked the question why GOD didn't throw all the fallen angels into the state of non-existence, the lake of fire? Would this not cause free will choice to become dictatorial? God is love, fallen angels are allowed to see the fruit of their choice. So they live longer than humans do. Locked up in the abyss, a sort of prison is a kind of living death anyway.

So it's your turn, please explain what man does to fix this lower world?

SHalom

[Dave]

So Dave according to you and the Jews, the soul is eternal and living, therefore cannot ever die.

1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.

What does not decay – you realize that scripture id referencing two entirely different dimensions of existence
Flesh and blood is of this dimension – there is nothing mortal in heaven – does not decay

So what happens to the wicked people, the ones the refuse to accept GOD, what happen to their eternal soul?
Without the Jewish Divine Pardon – which is Salvation through Christ
Proportional Punishment – the time fits the crime
At the end of the aion / age, when we are judged – if you have not yet been purified

Eze 18:4 Behold, every living soul is Mine—the soul of father as well as the soul of son—both are Mine. Behold, the soul who sins is the one who will die.

Then Lake of Fire witch is the death of souls – these souls fail to continue

And mankind was in this lower ordered world to fix what exactly.
You are very one dimensional
Dimension 1,2, & 3 are the minimum necessary to build a corporeal reality
The 3rd dimension is the lowest order that has form and substance

Our universe – is that 3D corporeal reality

Why does man always think of heaven and angels above them somewhere
It isn’t a direction in space – it is an increase in energy level

Enoch and Paul both looked down upon man in the 1st heaven (from their vantage point) and saw man upon earth
The 2nd heaven was a realm of many beings – tending the furnaces of stars – tending orbits
Jews, Catholics, and Islam will tell you this next higher level – the one closest to us – is the domain of the principalities, shedim of Solomon, and Islamic Jinn
Gnostic literature does not say this except that Jinn and principalities = archon
The 3rd heaven was “Padadise” – looked like Eden – the destination of the obedient to Allah
The 4th heaven – or 5th held the Gigori – who are the imprisoned Nephilim
Finally when Enoch reaches heaven 7 – his angelic escort could go no farther
The Gab-briel picked Enoch up and set Him before the face of the Lord and Enoch saw heavens 8,9, and 10 simultaneously

Of course Enoch did – the have a 3D experience you need 3 Ds

The expression – I am in 7th heaven is a Jewish expression – meaning I am in the highest heaven


Point – We exist in a 10 dimensional reality / heaven l planes of existence / realities / parallel universes

Peter, James, and John saw Jesus Transfigured right in front of them – then they saw dead prophets – it was a glimpse into one of those higher dimensions / heavens

Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.
Eze 1:7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.
Eze 1:8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.
Eze 1:9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.
Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
Eze 1:11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.
Eze 1:12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.
Eze 1:13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
Eze 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Angelic beings are multidimensional beings / intradimensional beings – they are nothing like man

Point – we were created – when everything eles was created back in the first aion / age – the age that happen in heaven – Chief Archon / Lillith / Jer 4 / Gen 1:2

From God we came and to God we return
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.”

Prophet to the nations – remember what you already gnosis and help other souljourners to also remember – this is our mission on earth (remember and share/teach)

114 more closely related verses

So no angels ever sinned according to you.
Sin = choice between a movement toward tov or movement toward ra
The choice to Seek ye First the Kingdom of Heaven – or the choice to ignore your calling (we are all called)
Is sin as simple as saying don’t eat chocolate cake?

Stealing – lying – and all that = sin choice sure – it is all an act of disobedience
But these are all LEGAL consequences of the choice to do them

You can discuss a drunks bad social skills - Or his – wife beating – his child abuse – his inability to keep a job – his declining health – all these things are true
But if you do not identify that base “choice” to drink you will never SAVE him

the archons who sin?

Do archons sin if sin involves a free will choice they lack – Hmmmmmm?

What happens to the archons and the children they fathered, do they have souls too? And where do these souls go?

Do they have souls – they are living beings – therefore they have independent locality
Angel Michael is a different being than angle Gab-briel
You are different than me – our spark – our essence – our souls are independent

The archon have souls because a lot of them are held in chains in heaven
Of the 10% that was allowed to remain after the flood – scripture says because they were born of earth, at death their souls – remain on earth as evil spirits

How is this fixing this lower world?
Fixing was not my word choice – I would not have said it
I would have said – we come here to endure the Contest of Gen 3:15
Because a prodigal son that returns is more precious

Fixing the lower word – let’s think like a Hasidic Jew
Even you agree now – the archon pre date Adam and Eve
When they we cast out of heaven – where did they go – earth

So Adam and Eve were in paradise
And the archon were on earth – with ZERO opposition
The sar of earth = an archon

Eve knew man had to fall to the lower world earth to prove the archon wrong
Job proved satan wrong
Moses and the Exodus was for what purpose
Jews say – so the whole world will know the name of the God of Israel

Why do you have beings thrown into the lake of fire,
Scripture has beings thrown into the Lake of Fire

if mankind was supposed to fix the lower world, please explain, why they didn't fix up everything?
Jesus Christ was supposed to return and establish his kingdom – why - why

You don't answer why God created a lower world full of archons, who are almost the same as humans, for they sexually mate with us.
Already had this conversation – scripture says they failed at first – but had to shapeshift before the women would accept them
Archon are from the spirit realm – they are not the same as man
God fathered a child = spirit + human =

You asked the question why GOD didn't throw all the fallen angels into the state of non-existence, the lake of fire? Would this not cause free will choice to become dictatorial? God is love, fallen angels are allowed to see the fruit of their choice. So they live longer than humans do. Locked up in the abyss, a sort of prison is a kind of living death anyway.

1- Rev 9 happens before Rev 20
2- 1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The Bride in heaven will sit in judgment of the angels – archon included
What will happen to them depends on your religion

Jewish – might say, hey, they were doing what they had to – they didn’t know any better
A Baptist might say – burn them in hell fire for all eternity – for ever and ever
I know what Richard would say – Jesus said, forgive them for they knew not what they were doing
A Unitarian will say – in the end all will be saved even the wicked

After a great battle – a troubled soldier goes to his rabbi for help
Torah says ‘thou shall not murder’ and during the battle that soldier single handedly killed several of the enemy. It began as a premeditated cold calculated ambush to kill the enemy, but once the battel raged on he became so angry and full of hate that killed even enemy he could find.
And the Rabbi says – so, that was war – have you ever murdered anyone?

Scripture doesn’t exactly say – dose it
I have heard the argument before that the word satan could represent a lot of beings tossed into the Lake of Fire – or that the word beast is also a plurality – and of course there are many false prophets
It is a hopeless study because – scripture does not tell us

Here is one last silly attempt to think like a Jew
No greater love has he that lay his life down for another
Who was this written about – Jesus right?

What of Judas – someone had to play his role
By volunteering – Judas saved one of his fellow disciples

[Dave]

Jun 14, 2020 0:05:40 GMT -5 Dave said:

Here is one last silly attempt to think like a Jew
No greater love has he that lay his life down for another
Who was this written about – Jesus right?

What of Judas – someone had to play his role
By volunteering – Judas saved one of his fellow disciples

The Gnostic Overseer

The Gospel of the Egyptians - The Nag Hammadi Library
After five thousand years, the great light Eleleth spoke: "Let someone reign over the chaos and Hades." … And the great angel Gamaliel spoke to the great Gabriel, the minister of the great light Oroiael; he said, "Let an angel come forth, in order that he may reign over the chaos and Hades." Then the cloud, being agreeable, came forth ……

Volenteering to serve the Lord - as Christ did - and as Judas did

Is the Gnostic Overseer satan - I have no idea
But if satan is God’s servant then why the Lake of Fire
No greater love has he that lay his life down for another