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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 13:23:48 GMT -5
We agree much here, except two points:
To you the chief archon was made by GOD, as a design by GOD to test humans, the chief archon came into being, lying, arrogant, and thus doing ra, but this is not considered sinning because the Being was created with RA in the beginning.
So He has no free will because He was made with RA, hence cannot sin, because He cannot be non-sinful, he cannot choose, he cannot know any better but be evil. He simply is designed to do Ra, and test humans so they do Ra.
Is this what your saying Dave? This function is testing humans yes, maybe even opposing humans, yes, I get your world using "satan" to mean a "human opposer".
However consider your model:
Did GOD create a BEING doing RA, for the sole purpose of making free will humans to do RA, and thus eternally die, should they fail to turn to GOD? Is this a loving God?
Design something so I might lose out on God, and thus forget God? God why did you design this in the first place? Since I have free will, I choose to forget God... the chief archon who has no free will, designed to be Bad, only trips me up to forget GOD.
Well your model makes this RA Being, weak, since GOD designed RA, GOD can overcome RA, and the chief archon so easily... I don't see this as a contest... it's not a war either... and it's not something where a being opposes GOD....
Your model does not explain where weeds come from, where our epi-genetic propensities come from, where our carnal flesh comes from, why are we born with propensities?
OK testing I get, but why did our universe become decaying, wear out, just because of sinning from Adam, why massive changes? Why not have Eden today, with just a Being helping us to forget GOD?
We have testing yes. But in Eden we have obedience. This is not testing, is it? Obedience is not testing... it's a legal requirement to follow law, or die... nothing to do with testing? Don't follow your idea of testing if we have laws requiring obedience?
God has laws that judge us, no need for testing, no need for a RA Being designed to test us....if we disobey the law we die, that's what law says... so why test us? don't get this? God gave Adam one simple law command.... that's it... so please explain why a tester was needed who did RA deliberately yet could not sin, to get Adam to disobey law, who could sin.... that's not a fair test... in fact it's unfair to humans.
The only reason Eve was tripped up is because the TESTER was doing RA, so Eve would choose to do RA. Is this fair? no... I would argue in court of law, since we are judged by law, why is this TESTER testing us in the first place? Obedience is obedience, if I see disobedience in a person, how does that help me see obedience? It doesn't, therefore it's not a test. Something wrong here in your model.
For example we expect police who follow law to obey law as we humans also obey law. But if I see archon-police speeding in their cars, while they are above laws, book me for speeding because I am subject to laws, how is this a fair test of a true God of Judgement? It's not...
It's much easier to simply require obedience to laws. Simple. All must follow law. Law demands death if you break law. Life if you obey law. Simple. No testing required.
So if Job is perfect, complete and following GOD 100% correctly, why does GOD further test him? Can you answer this?
And if Jesus walking on earth as the Son of Man, is following GOD 100% correctly, why does the chief archon also test Jesus? Test Him for what? He already knows God 100%. Test Jesus for what? I asked this question once before? You didn't really answer it.
(you did say to show humanity played out for us - Jesus experienced humanity for us...yes by why? Law says if you break law, you eternally die. Jesus came as human to take our eternally die requirement of law, so a part of Jesus has to experience eternal death, in order to save us. Law cannot be changed, law can only be satisfied. )
I don't get why on earth would a loving GOD what to test humans at all, if they love him 100% of the time. And are fully 100% obedient, as Adam was before He chose to disobey? Your a parent, I hope you don't test your children, to see if they love you more? They already love you... why test them further? Sure their loving is a babe, immature, but it's true, child like, yes... does baby love really need testing? No really, such love needs a patient parent, unconditional parent...
Love is unconditional isn't it? No testing attached? Dysfunctional love is conditional, thus we obey the ten commandments of love, but when we reach that complete connection with GOD, what happens?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What's Paul talking about here? What's wrong with our flesh? This is our DNA?
What is sin? Are you saying the chief archon cannot sin? Only do lying, deceiving etc, are sinful trait, but because it is designed to do that, it's a Being that does bad, but cannot sin? Is this it?
SO if Adam and Eve had no problem with their DNA, before they sinned, why was the serpent allowed to test them?
Dave you not explaining the reason, nor origin of testing perfect humanity?
Nor are you defining relationship.
A being designed to do RA, does not have relationship with humans nor relationship with GOD, God is love. Love is relational. Love demands relationships. A robot designed to do Good (angels) or Bad (archons) is not a relationship, its a servant.
Why design humans with free will (the first of creatures with this) to be the first creatures ever with potential to develop love fully? wow...what a privilege...
Yeah, but why not angels also....
Why do you limit angels without free will?
The only source of your arguments for a chief archon designed to do BAD, is from Gnostic writings? Are you sure they are true?
Summary:
Humans are the first creatures to have free will? God designed BAD Beings to be BAD, they cannot sin.
Humans are placed on earth for this testing... no reason given, just for developing choice and for God's glory. Humans who choose Bad is a sin.
Makes sense...
Why did God choose to make free will creatures, if He was doing fine before from eternity?
Why does love need to be more fully developed? if the loving was fine already?
Shalom
In my model, since GOD is love, and GOD was loving from eternity, everything was fine, nothing needed changing...ever...angels had free will, fully developed already to be loving.... nothing was wrong anywhere.... for trillions of zillions of years.... no need for anything ever different....
The relationships were perfect, ,the obedience of the law was 100% full. Nobody ever challenge the laws.
Shalom again
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Post by Dave on Jul 7, 2020 17:29:54 GMT -5
To you the chief archon was made by GOD, as a design by GOD to test humans, the chief archon came into being, lying, arrogant, and thus doing ra, but this is not considered sinning because the Being was created with RA in the beginning. To me the chief archon was made by the HS – the left hand of GOD, as a design by GOD to test all creation and humans are a small part of that
So He has no free will because He was made with RA, hence cannot sin, because He cannot be non-sinful, he cannot choose, he cannot know any better but be evil. He simply is designed to do Ra, and test humans so they do Ra. The Chief Archon woke up with the nature of SELF Can he sin? – ants do what they do – bacteria do what they do – some kill humans – some keep man so sick that they are focuses on something other that God
Is this what your saying Dave? This function is testing humans yes, maybe even opposing humans, yes What I am saying is that the archon test all creation, man is just one small part of their function
I get your world using "satan" to mean a "human opposer". SEE what you do – you twist things – satan to me means “accuse” you prefer ‘oppose’ All the word ever means = accuse or oppose If the sentence is about a cat and dog you forced definition of human opposer’ fails In a sentence about a dog and cat you force the word to mean “God’s personal rival opposer” Stop reading so much bias into each translation – accuse or oppose are just verbs
However consider your model:
Did GOD create a BEING doing RA, for the sole purpose of making free will humans to do RA, and thus eternally die, should they fail to turn to GOD? Is this a loving God?
For the sole purpose – I have no idea – such a limited one dimensional view The archon do temp man to keep our eyes off the prize Is this a loving God – Not if you are a Feel Good Catholic with a God of tov in an eternal struggle with a god of ra
Design something so I might lose out on God, and thus forget God? God why did you design this in the first place? Since I have free will, I choose to forget God... the chief archon who has no free will, designed to be Bad, only trips me up to forget GOD.
It is obvious you do not understand or you wouldn’t ask why
You are a father How did you receive love from your children – by locking them in a bubble Now that they are grown – mature – how do you receive this love – as one dad to another – is it satisfying?
The Parable of the Prodigal Son – is this not a valued passage for the SDA?
Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. Luk 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. Luk 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. Luk 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: Luk 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Once man sins – he is dead – until he returns to God What was dead is now alive What was lost is now found This makes God happy –
Only by letting us go - from heaven into the 3D contest - can we choose to return to Him
I once had fish – could I feel their love? Maybe not? Do they love? They are robots. Now I have dogs – when they run off (It happens) I worry about them – I have already lost 2 to coyotes and 1 to a Mountain Lion – then there are cars and road + hunters with guns I complain about them all the time they are gone – but the whole family is relieved that their loved ones came home I know I love them because I worry – I know they love me because they returned to me – I am the one true home
Well your model makes this RA Being, weak, since GOD designed RA, GOD can overcome RA, and the chief archon so easily... I don't see this as a contest... it's not a war either... and it's not something where a being opposes GOD.... YES! CORRECT! Ra = weak God can overcome ra at any moment – no contest for God It is not a war either – choshek could not occupy the same space as God - it had to go One became hidden and pushed away into darkness Today – the contest = Gen 3:15 on earth – not in heaven
Your model does not explain where weeds come from, where our epi-genetic propensities come from, where our carnal flesh comes from, why are we born with propensities?
Weeds were created by God for their specific function I want to say this because weeds are a great example One man’s trash is another man’s treasure Weeds – you called them dysfunctional – if they were biologically dysfunctional they would die
The poppy – herion – how many wars have been fought over this weed? – bad terrible drug trade But if you have broken your leg – been in a major car crash – undergoing major surgery – you would choose a medicinal pain killer prescribed by a doctor
All opioids come from opiets come from opium comes from poppy gum comes from Poppies
where our epi-genetic propensities come from, where our carnal flesh comes from, why are we born with propensities? Yester ra is a product of (Mind/Body) survival instinct - alph syndrome Yester tov is a product of soul (soul + (Mind/Bosy)) which is left out of the decision makeing process most of the time
OK testing I get, but why did our universe become decaying, wear out, just because of sinning from Adam, why massive changes? ra = entropy on a multiverse scale - universe scale - galactic scale - here To forget God is an entropy of memory There is so much more to the story of the heavens than just man here on earth
We have testing yes. But in Eden we have obedience. This is not testing, is it? Obedience is not testing... it's a legal requirement to follow law, or die... nothing to do with testing? Don't follow your idea of testing if we have laws requiring obedience?
Ask to obey a law is not a test? Hmmmmm? It test if you will obey or not.
The only reason Eve was tripped up is because the TESTER was doing RA, so Eve would choose to do RA. Monkey see - monkey do Man is suppost to stop and ponder the consequences of his choices You are right - Eve probably didn't think it fair because the serpent lied This is an excuse for choosing poorly - this is justification for disobedience
Is this fair? no... I would argue in court of law, since we are judged by law, why is this TESTER testing us in the first place? On man’s level with man’s law using man’s sense of justice there is a question of God being unfair
Obedience is obedience, if I see disobedience in a person, how does that help me see obedience? It doesn't, therefore it's not a test. I LIKE IT – dogs – robots – vrs man’s ability to choose – this is why man is superior to angels
For example we expect police who follow law to obey law as we humans also obey law. But if I see archon-police speeding in their cars, while they are above laws, book me for speeding because I am subject to laws, how is this a fair test of a true God of Judgement? It's not...
YES it is – you talk all about it but do not recognize it If it is archon- man Pharisee bringing charges against Jesus as God – is unfair That is why satan tested Jesus alone in the wilderness – fair test
It's much easier to simply require obedience to laws. Simple. All must follow law. Law demands death if you break law. Life if you obey law. Simple. No testing required. OK robots never break the law – but we are no robots We are man – and all have sinned – therefore no one can ever return to God – simple
Wait – Christ came so that even tho you are a sinner – you are fully eligible for salvation All you have to do is say – I believe and you are saved – easy – anyone can say it All convicts probably say it just before they are hanged – salvation is easy speech
No – James says – faith will result in works OH – James also says – works are a test of faith
So if Job is perfect, complete and following GOD 100% correctly, why does GOD further test him? Can you answer this?Because the contest is not over until death - as long as Job was 3D mortal he was still 100% fully emersed in the Contest of life
And if Jesus walking on earth as the Son of Man, is following GOD 100% correctly, why does the chief archon also test Jesus? Test Him for what? He already knows God 100%. The archon already knows – I LIKE IT – YES! Probably already knew the outcome - knew Jesus would never sin
SO – this testing was not for the archon – they already know 100% This testing was for me and you – so we can know 100%
Law says if you break law, you eternally die. Jesus came as human to take our eternally die requirement of law, so a part of Jesus has to experience eternal death, in order to save us. Law cannot be changed, law can only be satisfied. ) I LIKE IT
I don't get why on earth would a loving GOD what to test humans at all, if they love him 100% of the time. And are fully 100% obedient, as Adam was before He chose to disobey? Do humans love him 100% all the time and are fully obedient 100% of the time? You ask a hypothetical question – Was Adam 100% obedient? - NO So from the very beginning the man was already <100% obedient
Love is unconditional isn't it? – YES No testing attached? – so the gift of free will – the gift to chata – is not a test
What's Paul talking about here? What's wrong with our flesh? This is our DNA?
What is sin? Are you saying the chief archon cannot sin? Only do lying, deceiving etc, are sinful trait, but because it is designed to do that, it's a Being that does bad, but cannot sin? Is this it?
SO if Adam and Eve had no problem with their DNA, before they sinned, why was the serpent allowed to test them? You said the magic word here Adam and Eve were blessed beyond all angels with the gift of Free Will And because of this gift – the serpent was ALLOWED to test them
Dave you not explaining the reason, nor origin of testing perfect humanity? Answered
Nor are you defining relationship…. A robot designed to do Good (angels) or Bad (archons) is not a relationship, its a servant. YES! – they serve the Lord in whatever role they are given Your boss gives you a job – and sustains you via paycheck – but this is not a relationship between you and your boss I just do get you – of course it is a relationship But you will say it is not a LOVE relationship – and I’ll say, if your boss hated you wouldn’t have a job
Why design humans with free will (the first of creatures with this) to be the first creatures ever with potential to develop love fully? wow...what a privilege... YES! - AMAZING GRACE – YES! We will judge the angels one day – this is why some are jealous of us
Yeah, but why not angels also.... Why do you limit angels without free will? Why must you anthropomorphize the heavens? Ahl + agl + any writing was written to man for man – is about man and his relationship to the spirit realm all around him – which leads man to seek that Kingdom even more
Scripture is not a text book of angels Their creation story is not even in the Torah Because the Torah is not about them – it is about man
The only source of your arguments for a chief archon designed to do BAD, is from Gnostic writings? Are you sure they are true?
True? - are there weak translation sections - YES - are their translation errors - yes! Yet it is the most origional - unedited First Christians though stream available To say they are 100% without error is just stupid - or a belief To say they are 100% without value is equally stupid - or a belief
When will you ever consider studying the book of Luke with me It is not 100% without error Maybe it is a weak translation section - or miss translated - or a basterd text planted to introduce doubt
Humans are the first creatures to have free will? God designed BAD Beings to be BAD, they cannot sin. OK – I am going to go back to - Scripture is not a text book of angels Do we know the rules and obligations of angels or even their substance? You anthropomorphize the heaven
Humans are placed on earth for this testing... no reason given, just for developing choice and for God's glory. Our mission here is to remember what we once gnosis / God / Torah – then to share that information with as many fellow souljourners as possible To reveal God’s Glory in this world – to reveal God in this world
Why did God choose to make free will creatures, if He was doing fine before from eternity? The Sunday school answer – 1- how was God doing before creation – zero information to make any comments 2- I had a fish tank with little biological fish robots – I couldn’t really feel their love 3- man was created – God didn’t want another robot – he wanted a love relationship with man (Your terms) Why does love need to be more fully developed? if the loving was fine already? The fine love already was not bi-directional You yourself said – God’s love is unconditional God’s love was radiating outwardly through the spirit all over the place Now with man – Love can also RETURN unconditionally – bi-directional
In my model, since GOD is love, and GOD was loving from eternity, everything was fine, nothing needed changing...ever...angels had free will, fully developed already to be loving.... nothing was wrong anywhere.... for trillions of zillions of years.... no need for anything ever different....
The relationships were perfect,,the obedience of the law was 100% full. Nobody ever challenge the laws.
Then the rest of your model includes 1/3rd of all free willing angels that decided to hate God – then their leader satan recreated everything in ra image - and God has been waring wagainst satan since the very begining and still is unable to ovecome satan But - you say you don't elevat satan?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 14:12:36 GMT -5
Greetings Dave,
That was an interesting reply... Over the months you have taught me that I should re-write my website into three parts. As a "spiritual Jew", the scrolls of Moses must be considered first. Than the other prophets of the OT. And lastly the testimonies of Jesus in the NT.
You will find in my discussions throughout, I have by and large given you OT verses, which you ignore because you have material outside of Moses that is more important to you. That is your choice, but I am told by Jesus to rely only on the scrolls of Moses and the Prophets. This is what I do.
You say a lot "Rob: You anthropomorphize the heaven and God"
Maybe so, but aren't the Scrolls of Moses written with this in mind?
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
First scroll of Moses also includes:
Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Here is a test, as you say, based on Law, the penalty is dying death. And the sentence is eternal death.
Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
How much do we know about this serpent? How much do we know about lying?
We must use only the Scrolls of Moses.
Rob: "The only reason Eve was tripped up is because the TESTER was doing RA, so Eve would choose to do RA.
Dave: "Monkey see - monkey do Man is suppose to stop and ponder the consequences of his choices You are right - Eve probably didn't think it fair because the serpent lied This is an excuse for choosing poorly - this is justification for disobedience
Now you get around these questions by saying GOD is both a power of Tov and Ra, hence the tester does Ra, while GOD wants us to choose Tov. The Law serves the purpose if our choices are made. Obedience means we live, disobedience means we die.
Are any of these concepts in the Scrolls of Moses?
Ex 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed <shama`> obey <shama`> his voice <qowl>, and do <`asah> all that I speak <dabar>; then I will be an enemy <'ayab> unto thine enemies <'oyeb>, and an adversary <tsarar> unto thine adversaries <tsuwr>.
Jeff Benner has some different meanings?
Ex 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, presser unto the pressed.
I didn't know "<tsuwr>." has verb and noun meanings, must mean "pressor and pressed".
SO flint rock is highly pressed. Why is our Heavenly Father highly pressed?
Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's <'elohiym> anger <'aph> was kindled <charah> because he went <halak>: and the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah> stood <yatsab> in the way <derek> for an adversary <satan> against him.
Notice the Hebrew word "satan" to oppose, is in the scrolls of Moses.
elohiym's nose is kindled, and functions to oppose Baalim, a human.
Here we see God described like a person with personality and Baalim, as a human person also with personality. God opposes his person and personality.
Nu 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
This story shows that GOD is opposing Baalim because his personality is perverse to God's personality. Does the ass ever normally be dysfunctional? no, the ass speaks no. The ass is showing the man something else.... Using the same logic, is the member of God here normally dysfunctional to men? no, but in this case God is opposing the man... why? Because Baaliam and his way is wrong.
The Father wants us to press together under his laws of obedience....not like Baalim, and do their own thing, falling away from God....so God opposes Baalim and His way.
This is what I get from the scrolls of Moses so far...
The pictures are not the same pictures you're presenting Dave.
Ge 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Beguiled me... tricked me...
nasha - debt - also deceive - problem here? polysemous word.
Only used once by Moses....
Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed...
If the serpent was designed to do RA, why curse it? "the strong head, Head"
The ancient meaning has two heads, is a relationship word between two heads, one acting strong over the other head, ...
Why do I seek out ancient Hebrew meanings? Because Moses wrote in ancient Hebrew, not Modern Hebrew, as Jews claim. Hence I use Jeff Benner for this help.
Ge 12:3 And I will bless <barak> them that bless <barak> thee, and curse <'arar> him that curseth <qalal> thee:
This word opposes bless, is a contrasting word, bless / curse.
This word is used 34 times by Moses, so important to consider.
Why does God curse the serpent, if the serpent was designed by God to do ra?
Ex 4:3 And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. 4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
Why is Moses afraid of the serpent? if it only does Ra?
Nu 21:6 And the LORD <Y@hovah> sent <shalach> fiery <saraph> serpents <nachash> among the people <`am>, and they bit <nashak> the people <`am>; and much <rab> people <`am> of Israel <Yisra'el> died <muwth>.
Here we see another Hebrew word next to serpent, the "saraph" meaning "burning".
Nu 21:9 And Moses <Mosheh> made <`asah> a serpent <nachash> of brass <n@chosheth>, and put <suwm> it upon a pole <nec>, and it came to pass, that if a serpent <nachash> had bitten <nashak> any man <'iysh>, when he beheld <nabat> the serpent <nachash> of brass <n@chosheth>, he lived <chayay>.
The look of faith unto the pole of the "burning" a symbol of something, causes healing.
God is using the symbol of Ra to cause healing? or does this symbol refer to other beings of burning who destroy the serpents claim to kill people?
I showed you in the NT, Jesus is also a "seraph" and destroys the serpent's claim to empower people with ra.
If Jesus comes to destroy the serpent of RA, than GOD is not Ra, nor designed Ra as a test for man.
Ge 3:15 And I will put <shiyth> enmity <'eybah> between thee and the woman <'ishshah>, and between thy seed <zera`> and her seed <zera`>; it shall bruise <shuwph> thy head <ro'sh>, and thou shalt bruise <shuwph> his heel <`aqeb>.
This was spoken to the serpent... it's a war...
God will put 'eybah between the serpent and the woman, between the serpent's seed and the woman's seed.... Jeff Benner unravels this sentence in a video...
But it seems the serpent is cursed and cursed more by God, hardly any suggestion here of some design element by God as a tester of Ra, to get humans to do Ra.
Now is GOD a God of both tov and ra?
Ge 2:9 Gd made: ... the tree <`ets> of life <chay> also in the midst <tavek> of the garden <gan>, and the tree <`ets> of knowledge <da`ath> of good <towb> and evil <ra`>.
Yes, God knows both tov and ra, but God did NOT, repeat, did NOT, create a tree like that for mankind, only a tree called "chay" "ie" living.
So where does RA come from?
From the serpent....
...whom God cursed and will tread his heel first and later his head...
The word "cursed" means "strong head, Head" suggests one opposing another.
What about the word "satan" ?
"The prickle covering over the nations"
The prickle or thorn, becomes a symbol of sin... weeds are plants doing Ra. Was this a natural thing for such plants in the beginning? no
Notice the covering letter....
Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent <nachash> was <hayah> more subtil <`aruwm>
"aruwm" "The twisting Head Secure, flows"
6191, "The twisting Head, flows"
naked "The looking head secure flows"
The letter twisting is lost in modern Hebrew, but restored by Jeff Benner, and fits nicely the meaning of the concept of sin, where one is twisted up, the thorn which causes a twisting, and the opposer which causes a prickle covering over the nations.
There is not a single hint anywhee in Moses writings of some TESTER designed for RA, doing some "good job" for "God" who also does "tov and ra". Sure God knows both "tov and ra", but God does not do both "tov and ra".
You have God creating a tester of ra? Where is this in Moses writings? its not.
So where did this serpent come from?
Nu 14:18 The LORD <Y@hovah> is longsuffering <'arek> <'aph>, and of great <rab> mercy <checed>, forgiving <nasa'> iniquity <`avon> and transgression <pesha`>, and by no means <naqah> clearing <naqah> the guilty, visiting <paqad> the iniquity <`avon> of the fathers <'ab> upon the children <ben> unto the third <shillesh> and fourth <ribbea`> generation.
No hint from God... God is opposite of the claims and doings of the serpent. God curses the serpent.
Ge 4:7 If <'im> thou doest well <yatab>, shalt thou not be accepted <s@'eth>? and if thou doest not well <yatab>, sin <chatta'ah> lieth <rabats> at the door <pethach>. And unto thee shall be his desire <t@shuwqah>, and thou shalt rule <mashal> over him.
Why is chattaah seen as a ruler?
Ex 10:17 Now therefore forgive <nasa'>, I pray thee, my sin <chatta'ah> only this once <pa`am>, and intreat <`athar> the LORD <Y@hovah> your God <'elohiym>, that he may take away <cuwr> from me this death <maveth> only.
Why do we pray to forgive our chattaah? to save us from death?
It seems we are under a curse... the curse GOD cursed to the serpent.
What did Cain do that was RA? He killed Abel? What did the serpent do that was wrong? The snake lied to Eve, making her do RA.
Notice what GOD did when Adam sinned?
Ge 3:21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Clothing is a covering made from killing animals, to cover over our nakedness. This become a symbol of chattaah. Man lost our covering.... did we have a covering? Yes, a covering of light from the HS within us.
So here are some themes here in Moses writings...
Your turn Dave, where in Moses writings is any hint of Lilith, or chief archons created to do only Ra, or of GOD doing Ra. We are introduced a serpent, who becomes a pole symbol lifted up, causing us who sin to look at it and live....in the NT we know what this means, but did the OT people know also?
Well what about this?
Ge 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Ge 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
You say a lot "Rob: You anthropomorphize the heaven and God"
Well here is a simile, does GOD function as a father? yes, with a son? yes Notice a one and only son. Who dies the chattaah offering for sin. Who opposes the serpent of RA on a pole.
Ge 1:31 ¶ And God <'elohiym> saw <ra'ah> every thing that <'aher> he had made <`asah>, and, behold, it was very <m@`od> good <towb>.
"maod towb"
Jeff Benner "much good"
No hint of anything with RA in it, nothing RA at all, all much good.
This comes from Moses writings.
Dave writes" You ask a hypothetical question – Was Adam 100% obedient? - NO So from the very beginning the man was already <100% obedient
Rob replies: No, man did not sin one hour later as Jews say. Adam was fully obedient for over 30 years, hundreds of Sabbath meetings with GOD...
How do I know this? Because Jesus died exactly 4000 years after sin time began, not creation time which began from day one.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 8, 2020 18:22:52 GMT -5
You will find in my discussions throughout, I have by and large given you OT verses, which you ignore because you have material outside of Moses that is more important to you. That is your choice, but I am told by Jesus to rely only on the scrolls of Moses and the Prophets. This is what I do. I would say – I seek additional input to help week out religion from my theology Theology is a doctrine of sorts – a belief system Your theology is much different then mine
You say it is because I don’t read it as you do - to I admit guilt I say you do not read it as I so – to whit you must be defensive because I believe in Gnostic Junk
Again – I say your views are dictated / filtered through / your SDA religion Scripture can be read to support over 2000 different denominations When I looked at Mormonism it sure didn’t look like my Presbyterianism The Jehovah Witness came knocking at my door (this was fun – an x-middle school mate) I offered to study it with him – today neither of us are Jehovah Witness
The Baptist Church is a powerful evangelic voice in America The Baptist church is considered a “cult” in Russia, and Germany
Protestants look at Catholics and see – Christianity?
I say – it is the same problem you have with character and personality vrs the soul being Which character / personality of Judeo-Christian Christianity is the true one
I say these characters and personalities are all various expressions / projections of the (real thing ‘- DEEP WITHIN) at the heart of all of them – one base theology
This is what I seek – the base theology without the contamination of religion For example – your responses are emotionally based – you read the emotion of your religious pre-programming into the text
If I tell you there is a bunny in the cloud – you will also see it If you grow up thinking satan lives in Ezk 28 you will see satan every time you look This is called cognitive closure – it is a yester ra function of the brain and why we JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS
As a serious Christian I wanted to study the ahl with the pros – like ask a Rabbi – AHR was just the last Slowly I began to see that much of what I thought I knew is Roman Mythology – I became aware of my own – indoctrination by church doctrine
At the same time in my life – I was a science geek
I have always been consumed by the Flood story and its scientific application and/or validation Einstein and Relativity – science validation scripture
Rom 1:20 – Darwin rediscovered the creation sequence through nature Sea – land – small – then bigger – then man Darwin was a true scientist – but he did not give the credit to a Creator
Darwin’s peers of the scientific community at the time already knew and taught as fact since 1688 when Francisco Redi proved spontaneous generation impossible
But evolution begins by spontaneous generation and the gets worse Today – no one accepts Darwin – Evolution is another science built upon Darwin Intelligent design has been around for >100 Years – you just cannot teach it and get funding from the beast
Science = scripture to me – or should I say any science that supports scripture seems to stand (Einstien) Rom 1:20 = Psa 19:1
You say a lot "Rob: You anthropomorphize the heaven and God" Maybe so, but aren't the Scrolls of Moses written with this in mind? I don’t mean to offend but say in an assertive way – the beings in heaven are different You keep using absolutes – cannot do this – man sins so and angel can also sin
I maintain – other ‘higher dimensions / heavens’ has different physics – therefore different rules It is arrogant of a gold fish to definitive of the realm of the eagles – different dimension all together All flying things have wings – except the flying squirrel All flying things have feathers – except the insect ones Sorry – the gold fish just do not have enough information
Rob: "The only reason Eve was tripped up is because the TESTER was doing RA, so Eve would choose to do RA.
Man is supposed to stop and ponder the consequences of his choices You are right - Eve probably didn't think it fair because the serpent lied This is an excuse for choosing poorly - this is justification for disobedience
Ex 23:22 Jeff Benner has some different meanings? Ex 23:22 I didn't know "<tsuwr>." has verb and noun meanings, must mean "pressor and pressed". SO flint rock is highly pressed. Why is our Heavenly Father highly pressed? Flint rock? Don’t get the reference
Look at your question - Why is our Heavenly Father highly pressed Exo 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. An angel is with Israel Exo 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Is this Christ – maybe on some level – but Christ is not an angel This angel has God’s authority Exo 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. Exo 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. This is a physical promise that belong to Israel vrs Canaan
Where do you see God oppressed? This is between man (Israel) and the men of Canaan (with archon other gods) God takes man’s side in battel – with blood and guts – But as the Israeli hack their enemies to death with swords God – God steadies their hand
God does no ra? – But the Christians will say this is righteous judgment Nu 22:22 - Notice the Hebrew word "satan" to oppose, is in the scrolls of Moses. YES! The word satan mean accuse / oppose - agree
Here we see God described like a person with personality and Baalim, as a human person also with personality. God opposes his person and personality. Are you trying to argue that God = satan
Isn’t that in violation of the bulk of scripture God does not do the ra
This story shows that GOD is opposing Baalim because his personality is perverse to God's personality. You say – this story shows God = satan because of personality I say it is much simpler – God uses the ra (satan) to facilitate God’s Will
The Father wants us to press together under his laws of obedience....not like Baalim, and do their own thing, falling away from God.... Spoken like a true Catholic – if you only try harder - keep trying – follow legalism
so God opposes Baalim and His way. YES! – to facilitate God’s will – Balaam was on his way to influence an entire nation God said – not My Will – therefore – not allowed – no contest The question from this stopre should be for you Who is the satan here – God or the angel of the Lord
God = satan? Just how does that fir with Ezk 28?
Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed... If the serpent was designed to do RA, why curse it? "the strong head, Head" Why does God curse the serpent, if the serpent was designed by God to do ra?
H779 – אָרַר - A primitive root; to execrate: - X bitterly curse
G1944 - ἐπικατάρατος - imprecated, that is, execrable: - accursed. From G1909 and a derivative of G2672; (Doomed)
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
1- In the First AION / Age – the beast was ejected from heaven to earth 2- The Second AION / Age – is a repeat performance of the First AION / Age In the Second AION / Age the archon are already in/on earth – so where could the serpent fall to from the tree – to the ground – in and on the ground / earth
Why do I seek out ancient Hebrew meanings? Because Moses wrote in ancient Hebrew, not Modern Hebrew, as Jews claim. Hence I use Jeff Benner for this help. Cool Ge 12:3 And I will bless <barak> them that bless <barak> thee, and curse <'arar> him that curseth <qalal> thee:
Ex 4:3 And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. 4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
Why is Moses afraid of the serpent? if it only does Ra? Because snakes are notorious for doing ra – DUH The point here is – when the serpent is on the ground it is 100% serpent But when the hand of God is upon it – via the HS – via Moses – the serpent is whatever God Wills
Nu 21:6 Here we see another Hebrew word next to serpent, the "saraph" meaning "burning". I see this as burring – like the burning bush – the essence of spirit These were disembodied archon / evil spirits
Nu 21:9 God is using the symbol of Ra to cause healing? or does this symbol refer to other beings of burning who destroy the serpents claim to kill people?
This is the power of gnosis – once the people could truly see what was afflicting them – it no longer had any power over them – this is why the archon operate by deception – expose them and the choices become clear
I showed you in the NT, Jesus is also a "seraph" and destroys the serpent's claim to empower people with ra. If Jesus comes to destroy the serpent of RA, than GOD is not Ra, nor designed Ra as a test for man. First you say – Jesus came to destroy satan’s claim to empower people Then you say – Jesus came to destroy satan Which theology belongs to you
Ge 3:15 And I will put <shiyth> enmity <'eybah> between thee and the woman <'ishshah>, and between thy seed <zera`> and her seed <zera`>; it shall bruise <shuwph> thy head <ro'sh>, and thou shalt bruise <shuwph> his heel <`aqeb>.
This was spoken to the serpent... it's a war... And the war is between Eve’s seed and satan’s seed –
So where does RA come from? From the serpent.... ...whom God cursed and will tread his heel first and later his head... God created the tov and the ra and even the wicked Satan – the serpent did not create anything – he simply presented the option – made the suggestion
You have God creating a tester of ra? Where is this in Moses writings? its not. In the beginning God created everything – period So where did this serpent come from?
Ge 4:7 Why is chattaah seen as a ruler? Whatever mammnon consumes your worship – is your ruler – archons work in many way from many angles
Ex 10:17 Why do we pray to forgive our chattaah? to save us from death? Day of Atonement – Confession – if you are honest with God is usually always a confession How can we be honest with ourselves – if we cannot be honest before the Lord
It seems we are under a curse... the curse GOD cursed to the serpent. We feel curse because (yester ra) is strong – and we live in an age when the archon have really maximized there bombardment upon our souls
What did Cain do that was RA? Again – satan only suggest the information necessary to make Cain jealous Satan did not make Cain do it – Cain made the Choice
Gen 1:2 Rev 12:7 – the beast was ejected to earth – cursed to earth Gen 3 the Serpent was ejected to the ground After Cain killed Able – God cursed the earth After the flood the rainbow was an apology to the earth -
He killed Abel? What did the serpent do that was wrong? The snake lied to Eve, making her do RA. Correction – there is no evidence that the serpent was a snake before the curse We do not know what the serpent looked like – we only know what he looked like after the curse
Notice what GOD did when Adam sinned? Ge 3:21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. YES! – very Jewish – we are born naked – but them put on earthly clothes – the more we sin the more stained our clothing becomes When Enoch went into heaven – he had to exchange his earthly clothing for heavenly clotheing
The Rabbi says – proportional punishment is like the washing machine of heaven washing our stained clothing clean
Your turn Dave, where in Moses writings is any hint of Lilith, or chief archons created to do only Ra, or of GOD doing Ra. Lillith, archons = serpent = choshesk God doing ra – sending the angel of death to the Egyptians
Is this God doing ra? Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. Num 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. Num 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
We are introduced a serpent, who becomes a pole symbol lifted up, causing us who sin to look at it and live....in the NT we know what this means, but did the OT people know also? Are you suggesting that Christ is the serpent?
Well what about this? YES! Robert – what about this and you claim that God does not test man Ge 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Ge 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Ge 1:31 ¶ And God <'elohiym> saw <ra'ah> every thing that <'aher> he had made <`asah>, and, behold, it was very <m@`od> good <towb>. Jeff Benner "much good" No hint of anything with RA in it, nothing RA at all, all much good.
Except the entire saga of Gen 1:2 The ra of Gen 1:2 is all apart of the greater good evidently
Christians say – the WWII Holocaust was ra Rabbi says it was the biggest tov of the 20th century – ½ were martyred and ½ rededicated themselves to the Torah
This comes from Moses writings. Dave writes" You ask a hypothetical question – Was Adam 100% obedient? - NO So from the very beginning the man was already <100% obedient
Rob replies: No, man did not sin one hour later as Jews say. Adam was fully obedient for over 30 years, hundreds of Sabbath meetings with GOD... How do I know this? Because Jesus died exactly 4000 years after sin time began, not creation time which began from day one.
What does time have to do with it 100% perfect implies 0% chance for imperfect – ever Adam and Eve were created with free will – the free will to be <100% perfect
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 5:14:50 GMT -5
I will get back to you Dave, (ran out of thoughts about this So Moses does not detail why the serpent appears in Eden, why doesn't Moses explain who the serpent represents? or is? We do know that the serpent was placed on a pole, which allowed people to look at the symbol to be healed of their serpent bite. We also know the serpent was cursed for tricking Eve to sin. We know Jesus also died on a pole, lifted up like the serpent... the symbol means something important. Maybe Richard is right, maybe I am debating and wasting your time. I can't understand if we are both restricted to Moses scrolls, how can we also see the writings so differently? However I have enjoyed talking with you, it's strange we see things differently... and no I do not consider Gnostic writings as junk, the selections you showed me were OK. I will get back to you Dave, I will ask God for further guidance. Take care and enjoy your walk in Jesus. Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 13:59:30 GMT -5
Greetings Dave:
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: You agreed the serpent lied. This makes the serpent a "provider for lying" - a father of lies.
You suggest the serpent was created by GOD without no free will, but with deliberate lying in his personality. You are therefore suggesting GOD creates personalities who are also a "provider of lies".
Does Scripture declare this?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do
Light is of GOD, darkness is the absence of GOD.
Peace is the presence of GOD, RA is the absence of GOD. The YHWH does. The verse is making opposite remarks concerning GOD. Either you have GOD in your lives, or you don't have GOD in your lives. Notice the contrasts are described using light.
Light can create shadows. Shadows are similes of RA. There are always two kinds of shadows on earth, the umbra shadow and the pre-umbra shadow, both are created by GOD and made observable by YOUR relationship to GOD as the SOURCE of light.
The RA comes observable when your FAR from GOD. The RA vanishes when your CLOSE to GOD. Its a simple science experiment anyone can do, playing around with shadows. So being CLOSE to GOD, the RA ceases to exist, and we have only GOODNESS all the time with GOD.
You need to consider this simple experiment about shadows...
What does Jesus say about this "provider of lies" - "father of lies" ?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
This has to relate to the serpent who first spoke lies in the beginning, in Eden in Genesis. Therefore the serpent is a father of lies. A murderer from the beginning.
You suggest GOD created this serpent as a tester, doing RA for a functional purpose. Jesus words in John, do not suggest this idea. There is nothing functional about a dysfunctional Being, doing the Father's will.
You have pointed out the Father can make some good come out of dysfunctional aspects of our living under RA, this is another topic.
Regarding this serpent, the only clue we have in the scrolls of Moses is this:
Ge 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
The Father and His SON, requires the SON to lay down his life as a burnt offering for sin.
Where did sin come from? The serpent, the "provider of lies" the "Father of lies" - the "Murderer from the beginning".
Your saying "sin or RA" was intentionally created by GOD in a Being sinning all the time, without consequences because this Being has no free will. There is no Hebrew text for this idea.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
There is no text anywhere saying the soul created with RA continues living. The soul that does RA shall die. This is why Jesus died, to free those doing RA from death. Yet you say GOD can create agents of RA and they continuely live? that contradicts Scripture.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Why does Jesus identify the lifting up of Himself to the pole, to bring judgement upon the serpent, the prince of this world, also lifted up on the same pole, will draw all men to me?
This can only make sense if both beings of "saraph" on the pole, are opposers of each other. Yet you do not consider the serpent opposing Jesus, the Son of GOD, the Son of MAN.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 10, 2020 5:25:37 GMT -5
We suffer from the Jewish / Catholic divideOne God vrs your two god systemAnd your argument at every turn = God cannot do that – so a different god must be in control First you diminish the Creator then empower your other god Let ask you outright who is responsible for all of world history and the world we live in today You will say satan is responsible because he is a god in opposition to the Creator According to you God cannot even create a trusted angelic servantYou ask always – why doesn’t God just make tovAnswer – because your love would only be uni-directionalIf man is a robot and is just programmed to love God – your love is still uni-directional Only be giving man ‘Free Will’ was man able to turn away Only by turning away – can man develop his love response to God – now love is bi-directional Why doesn’t SDA consider the story of the Proticial Son just as relevant as cherub chata?************** Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: You agreed the serpent lied. This makes the serpent a "provider for lying" - a father of lies. You suggest the serpent was created by GOD without no free will, but with deliberate lying in his personality. You are therefore suggesting GOD creates personalities who are also a "provider of lies". OK – this is an entire study on its own – what is a lie?You insist firmly that the serpent lied – because 900 years later Adam and Eve died Serpent said eat and you won’t die Eve ate and didn’t fall over dead – she lived another 800+ years Did the serpent lie? Did she fall dead at that moment? No lie there But it is a spiritual reference – if you eat you will did spiritually – death of spirit This is not a lie – it is a deception – it is a lie within a truth ****** Isa 45:7 Light is of GOD, darkness is the absence of GOD. Peace is the presence of GOD, RA is the absence of GOD. BOOM – This is the first issue I have with your shadow model Where can you hide from God? = where is God absent? This is CONTRADICTORY to the bulk of scripture that say clearly God is UbiquitousThe RA comes observable when your FAR from GOD. Distance = forgetfulness – I am cool with thatThe RA vanishes when your CLOSE to GOD. Except your cherub that is closest to God is the father of ra If your Ezk 28 cherub was with God – prized – cherished - then how did ra blossom there next to God
Its a simple science experiment anyone can do, playing around with shadows. So being CLOSE to GOD, the RA ceases to exist, and we have only GOODNESS all the time with GOD. So when God called satan to his counsel in Job Why didn’t you satan cease to exist? And only become Good? You need to consider this simple experiment about shadows... It is a nice Sunday school lesson It fails its own definition – just in the two examples here What does Jesus say about this "provider of lies" - "father of lies" ? Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. This has to relate to the serpent who first spoke lies in the beginning, in Eden in Genesis. Therefore the serpent is a father of lies. A murderer from the beginning. NO – this has to refer to the serpent who fist spoke a lie in the beginning – long before Eden
You suggest GOD created this serpent as a tester, doing RA for a functional purpose. Jesus words in John, do not suggest this idea. There is nothing functional about a dysfunctional Being, doing the Father's will. Think long and hard about your own English – there is nothing functional (tov) in doing God’s WillHere again – this is a fundamental difference between us – I try not to double speak You have pointed out the Father can make some good come out of dysfunctional aspects of our living under RA, this is another topic. Is it – you just made the claim nothing functional in facilitating God’s WillGen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. There is a much bigger picture here – God’s Plan = to save much people alive Not busy damning everyone to hell because we have all sinnedRegarding this serpent, the only clue we have in the scrolls of Moses is this: Ge 22:13 The Father and His SON, requires the SON to lay down his life as a burnt offering for sin. Where did sin come from? The serpent, the "provider of lies" the "Father of lies" - the "Murderer from the beginning". SEE this – are you telling me 1- God did not test Abraham? 2- It was satan who tested Abraham?
Has to be – because God test no man – your scripture is conflicting Your satan is in control everywhere But you say you don’t empower him – just give him the credit for everythingThis is a fundamental foundation for Islam God told Abraham to kill Isaac and Abraham didn't - the Jews are not supposed to exist So if God temps no man - therfore this was satan tempting Abraham to disobey God Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. This must be satan testing Abraham and therefore the blessing to Abraham come also from satan Truth - God test man all the time Truth - God can do anything he wants - even being the satan to Balaam Gnostic - Does God do it directly or is there always a middle man ( a satan - an archon doing God's Will) In contrast - on the salvation side of scripture - God always uses a middle man / Christ / HS Your saying "sin or RA" was intentionally created by GOD in a Being sinning all the time, without consequences because this Being has no free will. There is no Hebrew text for this idea. YES! – I believe scripture when is tells us ra was created by God – there is only one Creator And as I read scripture – it only take to the second verse to see the consequence
Eze 18:4 There is no text anywhere saying the soul created with RA continues living. The soul that does RA shall die. Agreed – and we are all sinners so we will all die the same death Adam and Eve experienced – Mortal death – or does the SDA teach Adam and Eve are locked always in hell somewhere OH – they are still sleeping in the grave and at the final judgment they will awakened and be judged black or white – dead or alive – no other option for those disobedient non-nelievers Wait – they do believe? This is why Jesus died, to free those doing RA from death. Yet you say GOD can create agents of RA and they continuely live? that contradicts Scripture. You are going to have to quote me I say beings that do ra never die – live continually – please tell me where I say thisIn the end – the BEAST, DEVIL, and false prophet are cast into the Lake of FireYet you do not consider the serpent opposing Jesus, the Son of GOD, the Son of MAN. The only way satan could have opposed the Christ story would be to keep Jesus alive If Jesus would have just died of old age – like Moses – He would have been no more special than Moses
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 17:27:20 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Shalom Shabbath!
Dave suggest Rob follows" "We suffer from the Jewish / Catholic divide Dave writes: One God vrs your two god system Rob replies: there is only ONE Family, yes. The conflict is over a Creator Creature conflict and challenge. "NOT two god system"
Since GOD can click his finger and kill any being that sins, He chooses not to, otherwise other angels will say love is no longer love and free. But the key thing GOD is in control.
When you go to a court room, the judge is greater than all the parties present. Correct? Suppose one agent was trying to bring down the judge.... he brings in a person as a witness... does this prosecutor have to obey the judge? of course, yet he hates the judge, want him gone, but the judge is the most powerful one here.... unless you can bring him and the court system down somehow.... but how?
Why does the Judge say his Opponent, have you considered my witness Job?
The Opponent says, you protect him, how can I make him sin if you protect him.
Very well says the Judge, do what you like, but you cannot kill him. The Opponent obeys...he has to? Why? Because his own life comes from the Judge, so there has to be a different way to bring the judge down...this was provided by GOD, the creation of humans who have never seen sinning in heaven before.
These creatures are blamless, created AFTER sin occurred in heaven, and told about the Opponent in Eden for over 30 years....
Notice this verse:
Jas 2:19 Thou believest "support" that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe,"support" and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith "support" without works is dead?
Notice the devil has a concept of support, and his own support him, so making him a provider of sin.
But those that support GOD receive his powers of support. Our works are His works of righteousness. Support means you guard the law, and claim the promises of the law, but you do not keep them using your own human powers.
The Opponent supports GOD, because He has too, God is the only source of living there is, without GOD nothing exists, so in order to have a different world, where SELF reigns, the Opponent has to get a divine Being to sin, a Divine Being who tries to rescue humans, by becoming a human.
The law says:
Ex 21:22 ¶ If Being strive, and hurt HS with humans, so that her fruit depart from her, 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
The Opponent knows by getting humans to sin, He faces a kingdom of eternal sinning, as long as the Rescuer does not give His eternal life for humans eternal death.
Jesus born under law as a human, means he was daily dying in this body... so a natural old age death, would serve no purpose.... he had to exchange his eternal life for our eternal death, and this is an eternal sacrifice, not a temporary gift...
That means Jesus is the Son of GOD in heaven with scars on his body, a reminder of RA, the eternal affects of sin, some creature wanted to see... But GOD never wanted creatures to see.
Dave writes: "According to you God cannot even create a trusted angelic servant
Rob replies:" Two thirds of free will angels chose not to sin, along with those that did sin. The majority of angels chose not to sin.
Dave writes: "Answer – because your love would only be uni-directional
Rob replies:" That's ridiculous... love is love... hate is not love.... lying is not love.... fornication is not love ..... murder is not love.... love by definition is bi directional, you can love or not love... that's what love means...
Sure I agree not loving, was never seen before, but just because creatures have never seen not loving, does not mean one has to observe this as a part of our loving experience.
YOu saying I should do smoking, so my love experience is more developed? no I should do sex outside of my marriage, so my love experience is better developed? no
Dave writes: " Why doesn’t SDA consider the story of the Proticial Son just as relevant as cherub chata?
Rob replies:" The so who stays is selfish, the one who strays loves the Father more deeply, but returns with nothing. One is full of self, the other empty of self. Its a great story of love, and the conflict with self.
Dave writes: "OK – this is an entire study on its own – what is a lie? Did the serpent lie? Did she fall dead at that moment? But it is a spiritual reference – if you eat you will die spiritually – death of spirit
Rob replies:" Any wounding is a sin, the serpent spoke the lie, because he had not died as he perceived? The Opponent mis understood dying. The command saying the day you eat you will "dying die" the Hebrew has "muwth muwth" written twice. Did anything change that very day? yes Ground was cursed Weeds began Entropy began Universe began to decay DNA corruption began Mutations began Sin entered the world and RA became inherited God withdrew from man HS shrank around mankind, exposing their naked bodies A sacrifice was made for their sins The serpent was cursed Just a few of the changes that yvery day...the humans daily died, as said. The first death is a daily living slow decay of dying, the relationship to GOD strains over time, until we fall... Than the final straw is when GOD removes his presence from you forever, and you cease to exist. The oppoent has not seen this part yet, so assumed God was lying, so He lied to Eve.
Dave writes: "BOOM – This is the first issue I have with your shadow model Where can you hide from God? = where is God absent? This is CONTRADICTORY to the bulk of scripture that say clearly God is Ubiquitous
Rob replies:" Light is everywhere, yes. Light sneaks even around corners. You cannot hide from GOD, yes. But the shadow experiment is made from straight rays of light, special math and science property of light... you are avoiding the simple experiements, God creates RA, only by allowing RA to be observed.... RA is the absence of GOD, therefore GOD cannot be everywhere, as you claim. You need GOD to make RA observable, but inside the region of a umbra shadow, no light, no God exists...its science... and true affect.
Technically some other stray light might be in there, but you are ignoring maths and science principles...
Dave writes: "Except your cherub that is closest to God is the father of ra If your Ezk 28 cherub was with God – prized – cherished - then how did ra blossom there next to God
Rob replies:" Scripture does not tell us why Sin started in this angel, only that sin started...
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground,
This is the only text on the matter, why this angel sinned... He was the only angel allowed to sit on a throne right next to the Son of GOD. A creature so highly honoured.
Dave writes: "Why didn’t you satan cease to exist?
Rob replies:" The first death is a daily dying death... a corruption of relationship a straining of GOD, you with GOD
The second death is the final act, when you are removed from GOD forever:
Notice the text on this:
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague "striking" wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
God strikes those with separation from HIM, and the atoms fall from your face, you cease to exist. You agree the archons come to an end, so why did GOD create them with a beginning... Humans have a beginning, some have an end, but humans exist forever.... so why if GOD created RA in a RA being, does this RA Being not exist forever? Why does your testing and the Tester come to an end?
Rob writes: "Therefore the serpent is a father of lies. A murderer from the beginning. Dave writes: "NO – this has to refer to the serpent who fist spoke a lie in the beginning – long before Eden
Rob replies:" You are avoiding my question.... the serpent is a provider of lies.... sure the Opponent was lying after he began sinning... long before Eden existed...
Rob says"" There is nothing functional about a dysfunctional Being, doing the Father's will.
Dave replies: "Think long and hard about your own English – there is nothing functional (tov) in doing God’s Will
Rob replies: that's not what I said: "There is nothing functional about a dysfunctional Being," You neglect the term "Being"... Why create a RA Being doing dysfunction to Test humans, and then kill the RA Being, and stop the Testing of humans.... you make GOD less than God, creating something with temporary existence... a beginning but no eternal existence..
You have a God who creates love as uni-directional as you claim, no angels who love, no free will... man is the only creature able to love fully.... why are you limiting the awesome GOD we have?
Dave writes: "SEE this – are you telling me 1- God did not test Abraham? 2- It was satan who tested Abraham?
Has to be – because God test no man – your scripture is conflicting Your satan is in control everywhere But you say you don’t empower him – just give him the credit for everything
Rob replies: we have had this before" YOur twisting Hebrew meanings:
God tests Abraham to love deeper, yes.... Satan tempts man to sin, to love less... not "test" as you claim... same Hebrew word, one has a positive meaning the other a negative meaning, but same word
Ge 22:1 ¶ And it came to pass after <'achar> these things <dabar>, that God <'elohiym> did tempt <nacah> Abraham <'Abraham>,
KJV has this Hebrew word wrong here, nacah / test Abraham, not tempt Abraham
Ex 16:4 ...that I may prove <nacah> them, whether they will walk <yalak> in my law <towrah>, or no.
test them if they love, not tempt them to sin
For example " bless / curse "tempt / test
Rob writes: "Eze 18:4 There is no text anywhere saying the soul created with RA continues living. The soul that does RA shall die.
Dave replies: "Agreed – and we are all sinners so we will all die the same death Adam and Eve experienced – Mortal death –
Rob replies: The wages of sin, and thus RA is immortal death, not mortal death, why do you play with words... Death - the absence of GOD forever....
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 10, 2020 19:55:11 GMT -5
Dave suggest Rob follows" "We suffer from the Jewish / Catholic divide Dave writes: One God vrs your two god systemRob replies: there is only ONE Family, yes. The conflict is over a Creator Creature conflict and challenge. "NOT two god system"Dear Robert I have said much here because it is obvious that that my words mean little. I have no opinion on the gnosic material presented here. However, you have said something that must be addressed. Dave writes: " See – you have two Kings and two godsYes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that? Everything is wrong with that. You need to make up your mind – your theology is not consistantSince GOD can click his finger and kill any being that sins, He chooses not to, otherwise other angels will say love is no longer love and free. But the key thing GOD is in control. God allows the chaos that happens within the contest – absolutely Neither Chief Archon or Eve had to choose Self Both was an expression of arrogance – self over blind obedienceWhen you go to a court room, the judge is greater than all the parties present. Correct? Suppose one agent was trying to bring down the judge.... he brings in a person as a witness... does this prosecutor have to obey the judge? of course, yet he hates the judge, want him gone, but the judge is the most powerful one here.... unless you can bring him and the court system down somehow.... but how? This is such a disastrous exampleIn a court room – the Judge is the ultimate authority of the law The prosecutor also works on the same side as the law – his’s job – is to accuse the accused of all the laws he has broken The defense – is also working for the law – but we have no excuse Therefore the only defense is a divine pardon / salvation
In a court room if the prosecutor attacked the judge he would be fired The prosecutors job is to attack / accuse / oppose the accuses - manWhy does the Judge say his Opponent, have you considered my witness Job? Because Job was righteous If you are lost to the world anyway why would any archon ever waste their time with you – they have already won your attention But – only if you reach for the Lord – do they have to get in your face
This is why saint Arasthmus can write about struggling with a demon While an average American church goes – just cannot relate – to them demons are the product of Hollywood and the late night horror showThe Opponent says, you protect him, how can I make him sin if you protect him. YES! – as you have said – if we are close to God ra cannot be there alsoVery well says the Judge, do what you like, but you cannot kill him. The Opponent obeys...he has to? Why? Because his own life comes from the Judge, so there has to be a different way to bring the judge down...this was provided by GOD, the creation of humans who have never seen sinning in heaven before. Yes! – the archon have a free hand to decieveThese creatures are blamless, created AFTER sin occurred in heaven, and told about the Opponent in Eden for over 30 years.... HELLO – English pleaseWho are you speaking of – you opponent The opponent obeys – because he has too – YES! – always in service to the Lord - always These creatures are the bad-angels? I do not follow you – please explainNotice this verse: Jas 2:19 Thou believest "support" that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe,"support" and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith "support" without works is dead? OK – again I ask – and I will keep asking If the demons all have free will – and they know – why don’t they all fall on their face and repent They do not – because they cannot – or much of the rest of scripture will not unfoldNotice the devil has a concept of support, and his own support him, so making him a provider of sin. Satan does not give you the power of free will God give this gift to you –
If I shot a man Who is at fault – me or the gun Who made the decision to pull that trigger – me or the gun You can blame your choice on the gun all you want – you have no excuse ********** Dave writes: "According to you God cannot even create a trusted angelic servantRob replies:" Two thirds of free will angels chose not to sin, along with those that did sin. The majority of angels chose not to sin.OH – that make God all powerful huh? – only 2/3rds of His creation is willing to follow HIn – only 2/3rds Love Him But you would never diminish God?****** Dave writes: "Answer – because your love would only be uni-directional Rob replies:" That's ridiculous... Before angels and man – God’s love only radiated from God to creation Once the elohiym – heavenly beings were created – love returned to God in the form of praise Once man is created – love can return to God – unconditionally – genuine YOu saying I should do smoking, so my love experience is more developed? no I should do sex outside of my marriage, so my love experience is better developed? No I donlt say these things to you – the archon suggest them to youIf you smoke – your mortal life will be shorter – just ask me If you are un faithful – your mortal life might seem fun – but only if you “choose” to ‘forget’ the consequences Dave writes: " Why doesn’t SDA consider the story of the Proticial Son just as relevant as cherub chata? Rob replies:" The so who stays is selfish, the one who strays loves the Father more deeply, but returns with nothing. One is full of self, the other empty of self. Its a great story of love, and the conflict with self. And you do not see this as the story of manWe existed in heaven with God before our conception We strayed away into this mortal world contest We will all return to God eventually The one who comes home on his own – becomes born again – personal Pentecost – is valued more deeply – is more precious Dave writes: "OK – this is an entire study on its own – what is a lie? Did the serpent lie? Did she fall dead at that moment? But it is a spiritual reference – if you eat you will die spiritually – death of spirit Rob replies:" Any wounding is a sin, the serpent spoke the lie, because he had not died as he perceived? The Opponent mis understood dying. The command saying the day you eat you will "dying die" the Hebrew has "muwth muwth" written twice. Did anything change that very day? yes Ground was cursed – need a verseWeeds began – no new creation – weeds already existed, just not in Adams gardenEntropy began – sorry – Gen 1:2 disagreesUniverse began to decay – sorry – Gen 1:2DNA corruption began – no commentMutations began – not in scripture until Gen 6 and then not by AdamSin entered the world and RA became inherited – The earth was already home to the archon – are you saying that no archon sinned before Adam – and then we have the issue of the Serpent that predated EveGod withdrew from man - agreeHS shrank around mankind, exposing their naked bodies - OKA sacrifice was made for their sins - OKThe serpent was cursed – from the tree to the groundThan the final straw is when GOD removes his presence from you forever, and you cease to exist. - agreedDave writes: "BOOM – This is the first issue I have with your shadow model Where can you hide from God? = where is God absent? This is CONTRADICTORY to the bulk of scripture that say clearly God is Ubiquitous Rob replies:" Light is everywhere, yes. Light sneaks even around corners. You cannot hide from GOD, yes. ... but inside the region of a umbra shadow, no light, no God exists...its science... and true affect.Again - Where can you hide from God? = where is God absent? This is CONTRADICTORY to the bulk of scripture that say clearly God is Ubiquitous Dave writes: "Except your cherub that is closest to God is the father of ra If your Ezk 28 cherub was with God – prized – cherished - then how did ra blossom there next to God Rob replies:" Scripture does not tell us why Your shadow experiment mandates it to be impossible – ra right in the presence of the lightDave writes: "Why didn’t you satan cease to exist? Rob replies:" The first death is a daily dying death... a corruption of relationship a straining of GOD, you with GOD Your shadow experiment hakes it impossible Ra cannot exist in the presence of the lightNotice the text on this: Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague "striking" wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. God strikes those with separation from HIM, God does ra – against the enemies of Jerusalem Question – how many enemies of Jerulam were ever introduced to the God od Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? – How could these enemies of Jerusalem be considered separated form a God they never met? Dave writes: "SEE this – are you telling me 1- God did not test Abraham? 2- It was satan who tested Abraham? test them if they love, not tempt them to sin For example " bless / curse "tempt / test
And the answer to my question is – who tempts / tested Abraham – God or satan?
Rob replies: The wages of sin, and thus RA is immortal death, not mortal death, why do you play with words... Death - the absence of GOD forever.... So each and every human is destined for eternal / immortal death Game over – why be a Christian – why bother
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 17:47:20 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave writes: "You need to make up your mind – your theology is not consistant
Sometimes we talk to laymen using their terms, because a child like understanding needs child like language and words.... the KJV was translated for children using simple words the KJV used. But their words are not Hebrew, they are English.
In the Hebrew, there are no names for "elohiiym powers", YHWH means "he exists" and "ab" means "provider". There is no label "god", the Hebrew word "al" or "el" means "Strong Authority" a functional description of a power, like a judge, or government or family leader.
Jesus also spoke differently to different people, in the light they could understand. A teachers job is to match the learning to the learner. To edify and uphold the person who is listening. Truth is ever unfolding, and from eternity truth is ever unfolding deeeper and deeper. We are all saved as babes in Jesus, ever growing in knowledge and grace.
Dave writes: "This is such a disastrous example In a court room – the Judge is the ultimate authority of the law The prosecutor also works on the same side as the law – his’s job – is to accuse the accused of all the laws he has broken.
OK, what about a Being who wishes to take on the Judge, how would you describe that?
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This Being wanted the seat of the Father, His job, His power and his right to be the Judge. So how would you describe the usurping of the Judge Himself?
Dave: "If the demons all have free will – and they know – why don’t they all fall on their face and repent
Rob replies" Scripture says
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; (KJV) Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
If creatures no longer hear the voice of the HS in their conscious, because they have seared the communication channel, than GOD no longer speaks to them, and they are totally empowered by SELF.
Such creatures are enemies of GOD and GOD treats them as enemies as well.
Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Re 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Such creatures even OPPOSE GOD, and become OPPOSERS....
I refer to another Christian and his writings:
It is impossible that God would encourage and exalt sin. It is necessary, therefore, that God’s wrath and death be taught as the wages of sin (Rom. 6:23). Since human nature has been so corrupted and blinded in Paradise by the venom of the devil that it perceives neither the magnitude of sin nor feels and trembles at the punishment of sin, God’s wrath and eternal death, that doctrine which makes these evils apparent and visible needs to be preserved in the Church. That doctrine is the law. (page34)
www.lutheranpress.com/docs/ODE-prev-Ch1.pdf
When Adam was first created, the law was for him not only something possible, but even something enjoyable. He rendered the obedience the law required with all his will and with gladness of heart, and did so perfectly. Yet what now, after the fall, is impossible, is so not by fault of the law, but by our fault. It is not the fault of the one binding, but of the one sinning, hence this statement, The law urges us to do what is impossible, needs to be understood fittingly, for if you want to preserve the strict sense of the words, it sounds as if God himself is being accused of burdening us with the impossible law. Yet it is sin and Satan, who made the possible and enjoyable law impossible and terrifying, who are to be accused . (page 36)
Martin Luther writes that sin and sinning first came from Satan, the Devil, the serpent in Eden.
I also spoke to my Son who is a Facebook computer programmer, and asked Him would a supreme computer programmer write code that is inheritnently bad code, so that Beings naturally do bad things in order to test humans? (My Son is not a practicing Christian).
He said no.
Programmers do not write bad code. A Supreme Programmer would write all things functional, not include dysfunctional elements to his programming. The most common dysfunctional elements in programing is "logical errors". Such errors are difficult to find and rectify. He did say that netflex movies have coined a term called "chaos monkey" where some programmers intentionally write logical errors to let it go in a system in order to see how the system copes with logical errors in mind. In other words to test the system in staying functional despite logical errors. Than the programmer fixs the system to make it even more functional.
If a creature began to question his love, this is a risk a programmer does in order to get a love response. It's a element of love, risk. YOu cannot programme as you claim angels without free will, that by definition lowers the risk factor and creates mere robots that praise.
Your programmer woudl be programming a safe kind of loving, which is not really love at all. A supreme programmer would take the risk to properly define love in his creatures, knowing full well the risk that such creatures might not want to love you back. Once such sinning happens, than you allow the ra to continue while you tell your system so it is robust enough to stand the ra cancer growth, so your system of programming never allows this risk to happen ever again.
Thus the chaos monkey is limited in time, God's time is brief, man's time is a long time, but soon the programme will return to iits functional state, and ra will never appear again.
My son does not know of any programmer deliberately creating dysfunctional code, all the programming is always fully functional.
If you have a look at the DNA, why is the code packed with dyfunction in mind, why so much error checking? Hundreds of error checking programmes? Why, if the code was meant to live in a functional world?
Well if the programmer knew one day that the code would choose to disobey and thus run opposite to love, than such a decision would terminate the code immediately, and the love / hate response would not work, nor even exist as a response. If the response never worked, than it is not a response, hence we again have a programme that cannot be a pathway... so a programmer has to make a pathway for all decisions of love including the decision to choose not love, this pathway must be fully coded as well. Hence the programmer who knows all things, has to write this pathway as well.
AND so in this sense the programmer creates and enginneers RA as well. He has to because the Love response must have a NON_LOVE response as well, otherwise its not love. Hence the physical laws of RA, the chemical laws of RA and the moral and spiritual laws of RA must be written in this pathway as well, otherwise the pathway of love is not fully developed. But does the programmer do this things of RA, hell no. But in order to fully develop LOVE, the other pathway must also be fully developed and encoded from eternity, and written down as LAW. This is why the programmer knows GOOD from EVIL, both pathways are by defintion fully encoded, so LOVE is fully written as a code of law. When the creatures respond to the love, they seek only the pathway of love, never its opposite, even though they have the choice to do so....
Is there something wrong in the code for a creature to explore the other side of love? nothing wrong with the code, so why did a creature choose the other side? There is no reason given, no logical errors ever existed on the love pathway, otherwise the programmer wasn't a good programmer...hardly a thing to think about or question?
But for some reason the creature chose the other side of love, and walked further and further from GOD, thus the RA shadows came into view for everyone to see, the dark side of love, if you will.... is there a dark side of love? I don't think so, only choice, to choose a different pathway, to walk away from GOD.
Now Dave for a programmer of TOV to create intentionally a Being of RA, is not good programming. No where is the tree of living labelled with TOV or RA. Only the second tree is.
There was war in heaven, long before mankind was created. You ignore this latter rain teaching.
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
You agree the RA Being lied.
A supreme programmer would not engineer a RA Being doing RA. this is not love. You cannot create both pathways of choice at the same time. It's not a choice than. A supreme programmer must offer both pathways, and than ask in risk for his creatures to walk on one pathway only.
Your idea of both pathways offered and running, from creation must no sense, removes choice, and thus makes a poor programmer, and removes love....
During creation both pathways of love was running, because a Being chose to sin before man ever sinned, thus both pathways of love, was thrust into the creation of human beings.
I choose to accept the Bible with the verses that read "cherub chata" because this make sense...
The supreme programmer is responding to the "chaos monkey" that ruined the pathway of love. And this is why humans were created, to fix the opposers claim:
"you cannot be like the Most High, nor take my place as the Most High" Isa 14:14 "sin will never appear a second time" Na 1:9
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 12, 2020 0:50:19 GMT -5
Dave writes: "You need to make up your mind – your theology is not consistant Sometimes we talk to laymen using their terms, because a child like understanding needs child like language and words.... the KJV was translated for children using simple words the KJV used. But their words are not Hebrew, they are English.So because we can use laymans terms we can completely rewrite the meaning of the text? Is English Judaism is different than Hebrew Judaism? – NO Are English Messianic Jews different then Hebrew Judaism? – NO – Christ is a fulfillment of the ahl Is English Catholicism different than Hebrew Judaism? – ABSOLUTELY a different religion!In the Hebrew, there are no names for "elohiiym powers", YHWH means "he exists" and "ab" means "provider". There is no label "god", the Hebrew word "al" or "el" means "Strong Authority" a functional description of a power, like a judge, or government or family leader.Agree - Iam that I am - I exist El – singular authority - is the best fir literary term plurality - Trinity - who become elohiym of various hierarchy (your divinity and angels)Jesus also spoke differently to different people, in the light they could understand. agl written in the world wide accepted language of Law, trade, and commerceA teachers job is to match the learning to the learner. To edify and uphold the person who is listening. Truth is ever unfolding, and from eternity truth is ever unfolding deeeper and deeper. We are all saved as babes in Jesus, ever growing in knowledge and grace.To match learning with the learner – YES! – scripture is timeless – AND
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Jesus came to fulfill the ahl – NOT REPLACE it with CatholicismDave writes: "This is such a disastrous example OK, what about a Being who wishes to take on the Judge, how would you describe that? If a prosecutor becomes the accused – he is no longer on the side of the law, or an employee of the law – therefore is no longer the prosecutor, but the accused
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. This is about the star Venus It is also about King Cyrus – who is representative of any man / every man – who thinks of himself as the master of his own fateThis Being wanted the seat of the Father, His job, His power and his right to be the Judge. So how would you describe the usurping of the Judge Himself? Dennis Rodman – became famous for his basketball abilities – he is a self-proclaimed atheist - He is a joke on American TV, broke, in rehab, and friends with North Korea Michael Jordan – became famous for his basketball skills - he is an out spoken Christian – He is the father of many outreach programs in the Chicago area and loved everywhere How many rock-n-roll or movie stars – become famous – fall away from God – end in drug addicted ruin Sadam Hussain – thought he was a US ally (Iran vrs Iraq) – he used his arrogance to 1- think he can single handedly take over an entire different nation – who happens to export 40% of their oil to the US and is next door to Saudi Arabia who exports 90% of their oil to the west In the end – which was only 132 days later the first US movement – Sadam Husain was hiding alone in a hole Hitler – tried to conquer the world and had a special hatred for the Jews Nepolean – Alexander the Great – Genghis Khan - Judas - Pharaoh How about President XI of China currently All that happened was – American said we will no longer support China’s economy, if China refuses to international codes of conduct – why should America continue to be China’s #1 customer while they use the profits to build a war machine aimed back at us. Currently – China is suffering the wrath of God – Disease – unemployment – bank failures – and most of their neighbors are working together as a military rebuttal to China There are endless examples of Isa 14 and Ezk 28 Dave: "If the demons all have free will – and they know – why don’t they all fall on their face and repentMt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. If creatures no longer hear the voice of the HS in their conscious, because they have seared the communication channel, than GOD no longer speaks to them, and they are totally empowered by SELF. Such creatures are enemies of GOD and GOD treats them as enemies as well. Excuse me – I ask about demons – you offer a verse clearly about men / man But you say you don't anthrophorphize the heavens I just came across this today – when your on the right track – the pieces simply fit togetherAnimal (Mind/Body) – vrs – man (Soul + (Mind/Body)) Around 250 BC – Ptonomy gather together LXX of the best Egyptian Greek Rabbis to translate the LXX The LXX is translated by Greek speaking Jewish Rabbis Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature (G2062) that hath life (G2198), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. G2062 - ἑρπετόν - (to creep); a reptile, that is, a small animal: - creeping thing, serpent. G2226 - ζῶον - zōon - Neuter of a derivative of G2198; a live thing, that is, an animal: - beast. G2198 – ζάω - zaō - A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively): - life (-time), (a-) live Animal (G2226) = (G2198/G2062) – (Mind/Body)Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living (G2226) creature (G2602) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1st – all English translations – even the KJV – does not jive with the LXX Gen 1:21 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὰ κήτη τὰ μεγάλα καὶ πᾶσαν ψυχὴν (G5590) ζῴων (G2226) ἑρπετῶν (G2062), ἃ ἐξήγαγεν τὰ ὕδατα κατὰ γένη αὐτῶν, καὶ πᾶν πετεινὸν πτερωτὸν κατὰ γένος. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλά. English – living creature that moveth Greek LXX – every creature that moveth and spirit (G5590) and life (G2226) G5590 – ψυχή -spirit, abstractly or concretely - the animal sentient principle only; G2226 - ζῶον - zōon - Neuter of a derivative of G2198; a live thing, that is, an animal: - beast. This is more inclusive – this is (G5590/G2226) – (spirit/animal) Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man (G444) in our image,G444 - ἄνθρωπος - anthrōpos - From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man. G435 - ἀνήρ - a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir. G3700 - ὀπτάνομαι, ὄπτομαι - optanomai - The first a (middle voice) prolonged form of the second (primary) which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternates of G3708; to gaze (that is, with wide open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from G991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from G1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while G2300, and still more emphatically its intensive G2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection Man = (G3700 + (G435) = (G3700 + (G2226)) = (G3700 + (G2198/G2062) Man = (Wide open eyes – gnosis – awareness of God + (Mind/Body)) Man = a human beingLiving creatures are NEVER referred to as living beings – just living creatures Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Jesus came to fulfill the ahl – NOT REPLACE it with CatholicismI refer to another Christian and his writings: It is impossible that God would encourage and exalt sin. (AGREE) It is necessary, therefore, that God’s wrath and death be taught as the wages of sin (Rom. 6:23). Since human nature has been so corrupted and blinded in Paradise by the venom of the devil (AGREE) that it perceives neither the magnitude of sin nor feels and trembles at the punishment of sin, God’s wrath and eternal death, (who knows what the devil thinks – NT tells us the demons/archon know full well their fate) that doctrine which makes these evils apparent and visible needs to be preserved in the Church. That doctrine is the law. (page34) Agree – just like Numbers 21 – just like Christ – expose it – make it visible – so the choice is obvious – couldn’t agree morewww.lutheranpress.com/docs/ODE-prev-Ch1.pdfWhen Adam was first created, the law was for him not only something possible, but even something enjoyable. (it still is) He rendered the obedience the law required with all his will and with gladness of heart, and did so perfectly. Yet what now, after the fall, is impossible, is so not by fault of the law, but by our fault. (YES!- not satan’s fault – out fault – our choices are our own) It is not the fault of the one binding, but of the one sinning, hence this statement, The law urges us to do what is impossible, needs to be understood fittingly, for if you want to preserve the strict sense of the words, it sounds as if God himself is being accused of burdening us with the impossible law. Yet it is sin and Satan, who made the possible and enjoyable law impossible and terrifying, who are to be accused . (page 36) OH YES! – if you embower the archon over you then SELF tell you the law is impossible – I agree with this"Just Prayers" = just forgeve me for this - and just forgive me for that - an appology Martin Luther writes that sin and sinning first came from Satan, the Devil, the serpent in Eden. You force these three individuals to be the same god like being For me – each is a player in a larger game If you would say that the first sin came from the Chief Archon – I would agree – you could even call it the Beast – but the serpent in that garden could have been any archon I also spoke to my Son who is a Facebook computer programmer, and asked Him would a supreme computer programmer write code that is inheritnently bad code, so that Beings naturally do bad things in order to test humans? (My Son is not a practicing Christian). He said no. Programmers do not write bad code. A Supreme Programmer would write all things functional, not include dysfunctional elements to his programming. The most common dysfunctional elements in programing is "logical errors". Such errors are difficult to find and rectify. So – even tho the programmer did not directly insert dysfunction code “logical errors” sneak in sometime anyway OR - what I think is dysfunctional on my level serves a higher functionality I am unaware of Christians see the Holocaust as a ra - Rabbi Freiedman calls it the biggest tov of the 20th centuryHe did say that netflex movies have coined a term called "chaos monkey" where some programmers intentionally write logical errors to let it go in a system in order to see how the system copes with logical errors in mind. In other words to test the system in staying functional despite logical errors. Than the programmer fixs the system to make it even more functional. So – why can’t you see ra as the chaos monkey? God sent the ‘chaos monkey’ unto Job – did it detect logical errors with Job - NO The chaso monket did not write itself - the programmer wrote deliberately as a tool to test the system Sounds Gnostic to me
Your programmer woudl be programming a safe kind of loving, which is not really love at all. A supreme programmer would take the risk to properly define love in his creatures, knowing full well the risk that such creatures might not want to love you back. YES! The Father of the prodicial son took a big risk letting his son go Knowing full well he may never see him againThus the chaos monkey is limited in time, God's time is brief, man's time is a long time, but soon the programme will return to iits functional state, and ra will never appear again. You will have to unpack this statement – don’t get itMy son does not know of any programmer deliberately creating dysfunctional code, all the programming is always fully functional. Nor do I So – we as Christians have two choices God is unable to write a perfect code – because the world is corrupt OR – it is a perfect code – man, from his limited 3D perspective, just don’t understandMY turn to speak of programmingwww.google.com/search?q=self+replicationg+computer+codes+with+errors&rlz=1C1AVFC_enUS838US838&oq=self+replicationg+computer+codes+with+errors&aqs=chrome..69i57j33l2.3371150j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8A “QUINE” is a non-void PC program which takes no info and produces its very own duplicate source code as its solitary yield. The standard terms for these programs in the computability theory and computer science literature are "self-replicating programs", "self-reproducing programs", and "self-copying programs Elohiym – angels – archon – single minded
However – man has been given FREE WILLIn computer science, self-modifying code is code that alters its own instructions while it is executing – usually to reduce the instruction path length and improve performance or simply to reduce otherwise repetitively similar code, thus simplifying maintenance. Self-modifying code is generally frowned upon. Not only is it hard to read and debug, it also creates problems with the cache (``cache coherence''). ... Similar to registers, cache memory is fast in comparison to ``main'' memory (but cache is typically a little slower than registers.) And code errors abound!Well if the programmer knew one day that the code would choose to disobey and thus run opposite to love, than such a decision would terminate the code immediatelySo why didn’t God stop your Exk 28 So why didn’t God stop Eve No immediate termination there Now you are insulting God – God was taken by surprise – God didn’t see it coming – God didn’t know This is all consistent with the Catholic mandate that satan alters everything Gnostic / Jewish / most Christians – God is Omniscient - periord But for some reason the creature chose the other side of love, and walked further and further from GOD, thus the RA shadows came into view for everyone to see, the dark side of love, if you will.... is there a dark side of love? I don't think so, only choice, to choose a different pathway, to walk away from GOD. Only Catholic preach that their satan is powerful enough to change his God given assignmentThere was war in heaven, long before mankind was created. You ignore this latter rain teaching. Gen 1:3 – the light = salvation The Chief Archon and his archon were relocated from the heavens to the earthGe 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: You agree the RA Being lied. The serpent deceived – did she fall over dead – NO – she died laterI choose to accept the Bible with the verses that read "cherub chata" because this make sense...Yet the Jews will tell you it is contradictory to all of the ahl - you just say that all Jews have always been wrong – they do not know the ahl as well as Rome The supreme programmer is responding to the "chaos monkey" that ruined the pathway of love.So – either God created this chaos monkey as I say Or this chaos monkey has a second creation Or this chaos monkey is so powerful it can re-write its own code - become its own programmer
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2020 17:36:13 GMT -5
Interesting reply Dave, you left out some aspects of my Son's reasoning...
Consider the supreme programmer. In order to fully develop LOVE, the other pathway must also be fully developed and encoded from eternity, and written down as LAW. This is why the programmer knows GOOD from EVIL, both pathways are by definition fully encoded, so LOVE is fully written as a code of law. When the creatures respond to the love, they seek only the pathway of love, never its opposite, even though they have the choice to do so....
You made no comments on this. You cannot have both pathways running at the same time, for any creature created by GOD, otherwise it's not a choice, and the creature has no free will to choose.
You state during the Creations of humans, GOD created both the love pathway and the RA pathway together, with both running. The archons ran the RA pathway, so they could do GOD's will and test the humans to follow the love pathway.
Question: DO both pathways run together, is this a logic question for choice? Is this a test? No it's not a test.
In any program, the Test is a question regarding your input... does this input follow love principles ? Yes or No. You follow the direction of yes or no.
The creature must follow TOV in order to live. Does it need a RA pathway fully running in order to follow TOV? No it doesn't.
You agreed the serpent did RA, so the creature saw RA, thus followed doing RA. Monkey see, monkey do. Is this a fair test? no
But it happened this way in Genesis...
We are not told much of the details.... why is this? Is not this story about man, not about the archons and where they came from? We are not told much about GOD either, nor how the serpent came to be...
In fact Jews say Adam fell within an hour of creation... I don't see this...
Since we know a RA being spoke RA influencing Eve to follow RA, we have to ask, where did this RA Being come from and why was it in the Eden garden?
You claim GOD created the RA Being , who naturally only knows RA.
But this is also opposite to TOV, the Love factor GOD is LOVE.
So why would GOD who is LOVE create a BEING opposite to LOVE.?
In other words GOD created it's own ANTI-CHRIST? A Being who opposes Christ?
But you say the RA Being only opposes man, never GOD? How is this so? when a RA Being doing RA is the opposite to God's character of Love?
A supreme programmer would not create both pathways running at the same time, for a creature doing love, than it's not a choice. It's confusion, but no choice.
Love requires risk, thus while both pathways must exist fully, only one pathway is allowed to run, with GOD. Yet you say both pathways run fully side by side, with the creation of man in mind. This is not love, it's not choice.
You have to ask where did this RA being come from and why was it doing RA? You follow Gnostic writings saying GOD created a RA Being doing only RA. Scripture does not say this.
There are many Scripture pictures that make your idea wrong.
1) Love has two contrast pathways (a) Tov or (b) Ra. You do one or the other. You cannot do both at the same time. Scripture is full of this idea of contrasts.
2) War is a fighting over contrasts. We are told angels fought over other angels. Angels are created creatures you assume do not have free will.
3) Pride is a contrast opposing the other Person. You rightly say many humans want to be like the Most High, but you refuse to acknowledge Scripture which says the angels fought in a war with other angels.. surely an angel also wanted to be like the Most High too?
4) Cherub chata - we are told a high ranking angel chose to sin. But you ignore all these 4 pictures because you do not like the outcome.
Does Moses in Genesis speak of angels? Yes
Ex 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Moses tells us angels sit on both sides of the Most High, above the mercy seat of His throne.
We are not told anymore than this? Why? Was Adam told about the serpent in the garden? Was He told about it as a tester? Why is Genesis silent about the Being behind the serpent?
Dave writes:"If a prosecutor becomes the accused – he is no longer on the side of the law, or an employee of the law – therefore is no longer the prosecutor, but the accused
OK so why does the Accused debate over the Human?
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (KJV)
Why does the Opposer oppose Man, the Joshua man, GOD wants to save from eternal death?
Because the Opposer does not want mankind to be saved from eternal death...
Why though?
Could it be the Opposer is also facing eternal death one day? That the opposer wants his kingdom to last forever?
If this opposer is an angel, who lived years with GOD directly but chose to sin against GOD, should GOD offer these angels a gift of repentance?
If mankind, who also lived with GOD, at least one Sabbath, than chose to sin, because the angel managed to get Eve to sin, followed by Adam, is this fair, or would GOD offer them a second chance?
I see differences here with angels who sinned and man who sinned.
You don't see sinning as a problem with angels. Yet there was war in heaven... is not the word "War" a "RA" word? it's certainly not a "love word".
You say the serpent was a archon, but most probably the chief archon, the one archon who sinned first...is not sin a big deal in Scripture?
But how can sin be a big deal, if you have GOD creating creatures that sin, as a part of His will?
Shalom
Regarding the programming quine. I will get back to you. Note the program, does not read file input.
Ask yourself, as a programmer, if you want love as a response, do you need both outcomes of choice, running at the same time, in order to test love? Would that make you love your Creator more? I doubt it.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 13, 2020 8:50:55 GMT -5
Consider the supreme programmer. In order to fully develop LOVE, the other pathway must also be fully developed and encoded from eternity, and written down as LAW. This is why the programmer knows GOOD from EVIL, both pathways are by definition fully encoded, so LOVE is fully written as a code of law. When the creatures respond to the love, they seek only the pathway of love, never its opposite, even though they have the choice to do so....
You made no comments on this. You cannot have both pathways running at the same time, for any creature created by GOD, otherwise it's not a choice, and the creature has no free will to choose.
If I understood your point I would respond A computer program that is programmed to love? –not sure I know how to answer this You always speak in emotions – my computer does not love – does not hate – or ever gets jealous
So if we were computer programs If you love God – then you can only be love If you don’t love God you can only be hate Is this how reality works in Australia?
You state during the Creations of humans, GOD created both the love pathway and the RA pathway together, with both running. The archons ran the RA pathway, so they could do GOD's will and test the humans to follow the love pathway.
Question: DO both pathways run together, is this a logic question for choice? Is this a test? No it's not a test.
So within you – you have nature driven yeater ra and soul driven yeater tov – at the same time God created tov and ra – and He even created the wicked for the end of days God did this – God does this – I accept scripture as written
In any program, the Test is a question regarding your input... does this input follow love principles ? Yes or No. You follow the direction of yes or no.
Does a computer program operate on love? Does your computer have any emotion at all?
The creature must follow TOV in order to live. Does it need a RA pathway fully running in order to follow TOV? No it doesn't. Really – in this 3D world creatures must do tov only to live To live we murder other animals and eat them – no ra there So people in Australia are either 100% totally tov or they are 100% totally ra
In fact Jews say Adam fell within an hour of creation... I don't see this... Time is a stupid argument 6 days vrs 13.5 Billion years 1 hour vrs 133 years in Adam’s life
TIME IS NOT LINEAR Science says so and scripture says so
You claim GOD created the RA Being , who naturally only knows RA. 1- The HS created the Chief Archon 2- Does the Chief Archon only know ra – I have no idea – anyone who thinks they know is just making it up
But this is also opposite to TOV, the Love factor GOD is LOVE. So why would GOD who is LOVE create a BEING opposite to LOVE.? In other words GOD created it's own ANTI-CHRIST? A Being who opposes Christ? OK lets see – what does scripture say – what is the plan for humanity God’s plan for humanity = Mathew 10 - tribulation – Armageddon – and the earth destroyed by fire This is God’s plan as laid out in scripture Either God is in absolute control and we are living in God’s plan – or God is not worth worshiping
Catholics preach – God had a nice plan – but satan over threw that plan now we are living in satan’s world ran by satan
Sorry – Jews and Gnostics – say God is in control – and it God’s plan we are living
But you say the RA Being only opposes man, never GOD? How is this so? when a RA Being doing RA is the opposite to God's character of Love? I have begged and begged for you to give me a verse demonstrating that satan is anti-God Each and every verse in scripture has satan does exactly what God tells him to do within the limit established by God – ra is a tool of the Lord
A supreme programmer would not create both pathways running at the same time, for a creature doing love, than it's not a choice. It's confusion, but no choice. So – the world does not have both tov ad ra in it – prove that to me Man does not have yester ra and yester tov as part of the duality of their nature Man is always just 100% tov – which would be Jesus Christ Or man is 100% totally ra – like the Chief Archon / Beast Very black and white - all or nothing - in or out - also not consistant with the bulk of scripture
Love requires risk, thus while both pathways must exist fully, only one pathway is allowed to run, with GOD. Yet you say both pathways run fully side by side, with the creation of man in mind. This is not love, it's not choice. Man is yester ra + yester tov -= both at the same time – and we continually choose between them
You have to ask where did this RA being come from and why was it doing RA? You follow Gnostic writings saying GOD created a RA Being doing only RA. Scripture does not say this.
There are many Scripture pictures that make your idea wrong.
1) Love has two contrast pathways (a) Tov or (b) Ra. You do one or the other. You cannot do both at the same time. Scripture is full of this idea of contrasts.
2) War is a fighting over contrasts. We are told angels fought over other angels. I know this guy that has a showdown experiment – it is simple Shadow ra cannot exist in the presence of the light tov So in Gen 1:3 ra was ejected from the light – from heaven to earth How long does that take with your shadow experiment? Once you expose the shadow to full light – how long does the shadow remain – hanging on fighting for it position in the light
In your shadow experiment – that war last <0.00001 sec But then you preach that war is still ongoing – the light just cannot win over the shadow You do not even believe your own example
3) Pride is a contrast opposing the other Person. You rightly say many humans want to be like the Most High, but you refuse to acknowledge Scripture which says the angels fought in a war with other angels.. surely an angel also wanted to be like the Most High too? There you go – angels act like men – surely angels would want this or cannot do that because men do or don’t
4) Cherub chata - we are told a high ranking angel chose to sin. But you ignore all these 4 pictures because you do not like the outcome. I do not read these scriptures the same way you do – because they do not fit with the bulk of scripture You believe in an entirely different religion than the Jews You believe in a system with two opposing gods – Jews do not
Does Moses in Genesis speak of angels? Yes Ex 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. Moses tells us angels sit on both sides of the Most High, above the mercy seat of His throne. Cool - when I was a marine I wore green - relevance?
Dave writes:"If a prosecutor becomes the accused – he is no longer on the side of the law, or an employee of the law – therefore is no longer the prosecutor, but the accused OK so why does the Accused debate over the Human? What? An accused would be defending himself – not accusing anyone – that is the job of the prosecutor
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Why does the Opposer oppose Man, the Joshua man, GOD wants to save from eternal death? Because the Opposer does not want mankind to be saved from eternal death... Why though? The accuser / oppose was doing his job – that is what an accuser does – accuse The function of the prosecutor is to accuse the defendant of all his crime – expose the accused’s crime This is satan’s job – to expose us for who we are – yester ra following men
Could it be the Opposer is also facing eternal death one day? Rev 20
If this opposer is an angel, who lived years with GOD directly but chose to sin against GOD, should GOD offer these angels a gift of repentance? So your God is not the God of love and mercy – but the God of vengeance This is why the angels have no free will – they do as they are assigned If they had free will – they would surely choose God – but you say God would have no love, no mercy, and reject them anyway -
If Catholic doctrine is correct – as you claim – then God is not a God of mercy and forgiveness Then the story of the Provincial Son is invalid OR – scripture was written for man about man – and you anthropomorphize the heavens
If mankind, who also lived with GOD, at least one Sabbath, than chose to sin, because the angel managed to get Eve to sin, followed by Adam, is this fair, or would GOD offer them a second chance? I see differences here with angels who sinned and man who sinned. God never gives second chances? Hmmmmmmm? Is this what scripture tells you?
You don't see sinning as a problem with angels. Yet there was war in heaven... is not the word "War" a "RA" word? it's certainly not a "love word".
What about the war between Eve and God She rose up to be as God Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, Ezk 28 – Isa 14 How many centuries did this war go on? 600 years 6000 years? No – it was over before it started – NO CONTEST
You say the serpent was a archon, but most probably the chief archon, the one archon who sinned first...is not sin a big deal in Scripture? YES! – all bad-guy beings = archon The serpent – no way of knowing his true identity Could have been the Chief Archon directly – or any of his archon sent for this mission It could have been the General – or the Major – or the Captian – or the Sargent – or the private
But how can sin be a big deal, if you have GOD creating creatures that sin, as a part of His will? You can deny scripture all you want Scripture says – God created the tov and the ra – and the wicked for the end days If you would stop fighting scripture – and let it speak to you – You must deny so much scripture to maintain your catholic doctrine Now you want to tell me God cannot forgive – won’t forgive
Ask yourself, as a programmer, if you want love as a response, do you need both outcomes of choice, running at the same time, in order to test love? Would that make you love your Creator more? I doubt it.
Lets see – if I made humans with only yeater ra – God could just send them all to hell – easy if I made humans with only yeater tov – God could just save them all
Is this reality? NO
Reality says – God made man with both yester ra and yesster tov – now we do have choice This is call free will – the ability to choose – tov the direction toward funcationality – or ra the direction toward dysfunctionality
Does man have a choice or not?
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Post by Dave on Jul 13, 2020 9:18:52 GMT -5
Ask yourself, as a programmer, if you want love as a response, do you need both outcomes of choice, running at the same time, in order to test love? Would that make you love your Creator more? I doubt it.
We should study the Prodicial Son One son stayed home – always saved – like angels who never left their first estate One son – stayed away from home and we are given the impression – he lived in sin When the lost son returns – he is more valued – why?
Because the lost son came home on his own Because the lost son appreciates the fathers forgiveness Because the father appreciates how hard it was for the son to return
The first son the one that stayed home – are like the angels – sure they love God – they know no other The lost son – had to admit he was wrong – had to admit he was selfish – had to confess to himself that he was wrong – this is the human experience
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
But you say the RA Being only opposes man, never GOD? How is this so? when a RA Being doing RA is the opposite to God's character of Love? I have begged and begged for you to give me a verse demonstrating that satan is anti-God Each and every verse in scripture has satan does exactly what God tells him to do within the limit established by God – ra is a tool of the Lord What about God's character of Wrath? - Righteous Judgment? - or Jealousy? When God throws people into the Lake of Fire - this is love? When God sidtracks an entire culture with homsexuality - this is love? When God turns his people over to their enimies - this is love? Moses did all that he did - but could not see the promise land - Love? When God opened the ground and swallowed Korah - love?
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Is this God doing tov or ra According the Catholic Feel Good God of love and mercy only - how is this possible
Question - was this a ra punishment for Korah and his men Or was this a tov for the rest of Israel Whose lesson was it - Korah's ot Israels
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
God uses the ra to facilitate His Will - to save much people alive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 14:16:37 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Too many clashing statements to reply to, I am trying to be objective:
Dave writes:"We should study the Prodicial Son One son stayed home – always saved – like angels who never left their first estate One son – stayed away from home and we are given the impression – he lived in sin When the lost son returns – he is more valued – why?
Because the lost son came home on his own Because the lost son appreciates the fathers forgiveness Because the father appreciates how hard it was for the son to return
The first son the one that stayed home – are like the angels – sure they love God – they know no other The lost son – had to admit he was wrong – had to admit he was selfish – had to confess to himself that he was wrong – this is the human experience
The Son (angels) who stayed home, had an experience of love as you say. Correct. Did the Son who stayed home, sin or do RA? No The Father never tested him to do RA or to sin either? They just loved each other.
True the Son who loved His Dad and stayed home never knew forgiveness, but he wasn't missing much, really, who wants to do RA anyhow? It's not love anyhow.
Much of your yester Tov and tester Ra, applies to AFTER sin came into the Father's world of love,
You don't see this....
I am not talking about AFTER SIN or RA came, but before it came.
You have the HS creating the archons during the creation of man, hence BOTH RA and TOV during man, BEFORE they SINNED, hence it's not a choice to sin, you already have BEINGS sinning.
Something very wrong with your model and the programmed pathway of choice.
You cannot program a choice, if both pathways of choice are already running. Sin is a choice.
You have archons already doing the RA choice, and God doing the Tov choice, Creating man with no choice, because both choices are already running.
In my model, the sinning Being is told to Adam and Eve during their Creation, so they are aware of the sin already in the universe.
Now this creates a problem, it may be unfair to say much about sinning happening already on another place in the universe, to say sinless, brand new created creatures. In fact describing things strange to brand new creatures would not edify them, hence your words may wound them. SO GOD out of love keeps things simple... do not eat of one tree in the garden....
Dave writes: "I know this guy that has a showdown experiment – it is simple Shadow ra cannot exist in the presence of the light tov So in Gen 1:3 ra was ejected from the light – from heaven to earth How long does that take with your shadow experiment? Once you expose the shadow to full light – how long does the shadow remain – hanging on fighting for it position in the light
In your shadow experiment – that war last <0.00001 sec But then you preach that war is still ongoing – the light just cannot win over the shadow You do not even believe your own example
Rob replies: "My friend, its true RA does not exist under light that is very strong and very large as a source, or of the object causing the RA shadow gets too close to the light source.
If fact by definition and logic, a sinner is not going to have a close relationship to a light source, nor be anywhere near it.
I noticed this in many ways:
1) Naughty kids always sit in classrooms furthest from the teachers desk. 2) Non-believers tend to sit around shadows in the dark, not in the light areas, under light.
However, if you walk away from light, away from GOD, and as far as possible from a light source, can a RA shadow exist? According to you, no? Why do you even say that?
Suppose God's place is a galaxy called the Golden Galaxy Andromeda in the North of the Milky Way Galaxy, (clue: Gabriel travels from here to earth during Daniel's prayer, at speed of light, such a prayer of say 15 minutes, means a distance from earth to heaven of some millions of light years)
So if Satan is banished to earth, 2.5 million light years away, is this far enough away for an awesome Father light to allow a umbra RA shadow to existence with this once Bright Star, KJV calls Lucifer?
It does say in Rev, war in heaven. It also says angels were fighting in the war.
Sure I get your repeating use of tov and ra, AFTER sin came into the universe, especially when mankind sinned.... but your not investigating your model that says sin and ra was already in mankind's world BEFORE they sinned.
I am saying you cannot make love, as a choice, if you don't make love as a choice. And to do this you require only one pathway open, the other pathway closed, but could be opened if the love being chooses.
This story is in your prodigal son story. The Son who never sinned.
Your model cannot explain where sinning came from. Only that God created a RA being who was designed to do sinning. That model says GOD designed sinning, and makes God a sinner because of the designing.
My model has love and its opposite pathway, both fully known by God and programmed as a choice by God, but only one pathway was open (tov) and the other pathway was closed (ra) unless a love being chose to open it, thus no longer love GOD. Hence love has risk.
This model implies some creature sinned long before man sinned. And thus GOD has to react to this sinning... is the sinner allowed to live or not? The law says no. You cannot have a CREATOR designing a SINNING BEING, as you claim.
That means to sin or not to sin, is NO longer a choice. Sinning is a response to GOD.
Your model also removes love as a risk.
My wife loves me whether I am good or bad, because love is just a response. I was taught love is choice. I choose to love my wife even if she is good or bad. My love to her is not a emotional response. My love is a principle.
If God was love, He can and does love both the ra and tov person. But the law also says any ra is not allowed to exist, ever. But you have GOD creating RA, before sinning even took place???
Sure I get God doing some ra, to win people back to tov, after ra comes into the world, but your saying GOD created RA before sin even started.... That is wrong... its not a choice....not love either....
SHalom
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