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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 4:34:56 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, great to talk to you again Of course " man is a special thing" Dave writes: " You just make him an animal standing judgment next to the dogs, squirrels, and fish
Rob replies: "Scripture says man is an animal, with the same nephesh forces as ordinary animal's have. Ec 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.All living creatures have nephesh and experience death. Paul didn't answer this question did he? What does Paul say? 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Messiah (whether in the body I don’t know, or whether out of the body I don’t know—God knows)—fourteen years ago, he was caught up to the third heaven. Ge 1:24 ¶ And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let the earth <'erets> bring forth <yatsa'> the living <chay> creature <nephesh> after his kind <miyn>, Dave writes: "This passage is about the land creatures – no nephesh hereRob replies: the passage says the living nephesh after their kind... Ge 9:4 But <'ak> flesh <basar> with the life < nephesh> thereof, which is the blood <dam> thereof, shall ye not eat Any creature with blood in it has a nephesh... Ge 9:10 And with every living <chay> creature <nephesh> that is with you, of the fowl <`owph>, of the cattle <b@hemah>, and of every beast <chay> of the earth <'erets> with you; from all that go out <yatsa'> of the ark <tebah>, to every beast <chay> of the earth <'erets>. This passage "living nephesh" lists creatures of this: The fowl... the cattle... Ge 37:21 And Reuben said" Let us not kill <nakah> <nephesh> him."SO obviously nephesh can die. Le 11:46 This is the law <towrah> of the beasts <b@hemah>, and of the fowl <`owph>, and of every living <chay> creature <nephesh> that moveth <ramas> in the waters <mayim>, and of every creature <nephesh> that creepeth <sharats> upon the earth <'erets>: Again fowls have living nephesh, which you claim they don't. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 23, 2020 11:25:41 GMT -5
Dave writes: "You just make him an animal standing judgment next to the dogs, squirrels, and fish Rob replies: "Scripture says man is an animal, with the same nephesh forces as ordinary animal's have.
Ec 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
If we are just the same as animals - please give me your scripture that animals are saved being with eternal life in heaven
We are the same - or are we different?
Dave writes: "This passage is about the land creatures – no nephesh here Rob replies: the passage says the living nephesh after their kind... You are 100% Correct and I am wrong - I was too quick -
Any creature with blood in it has a nephesh... So now you are saying insects and single cell organisms are different I though all creature were just like animal man
Again fowls have living nephesh, which you claim they don't. I did not make this claim I said your proof is invalid- the verse you offer dose not prove your point
Father gave me a red wagon, and a dress prove to me that the dress is red
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 13:44:48 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
The Creation Science people say the insects and lower life don't have the breath of life hence make different classes , but I am not sure I agree. I prefer not to get too deep in my studies.... so we stick to Scripture we know easily...
The topic was, do animals have nephesh... yes they do.
Now you raise, but man is special... yes man is.
Where is the Scripture for that?
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Only here.
The HS does not record the character of animals, only that of mankind. Only we have free will that chooses salvation.
Dave writes: "Father gave me a red wagon, and a dress prove to me that the dress is red
In Hebrew, we do not have adjectives, only noun constructs.
Our Father gives me the Spirit wheels, and a Covering. Is the covering of something from the characteristics of the Spirit? Yes
This verse is similar
Eze 1:12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.
As they move forward, the HS moves them forward.
Eze 1:13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
Here it says as they appear like fire, even red fire, because the HS as an agency empowers the red fire over their faces.
So if Our Father gives us the red firey wheels that transports us forward, our faces will glow red, because the dress covering is also red like the fire around us.
Does this help you Dave? This chapter of the mystery powers of GOD is truly interesting... Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 23, 2020 20:11:58 GMT -5
You are conflicted – and you are not consistent in your theology Now you raise, but man is special... yes man is. Where is the Scripture for that? Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Dave inquires: " Please explain this statement in more detail So when we die - we do not go to heaven The HS only returns with our "character record" So when we die - we do not go to heaven .....No The HS only returns with our "character record" .....yes When you figure out what you mean – we can talk further – right now you just keep talking in circles
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 13:51:56 GMT -5
DO a study of death and spirit yourself.
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Once you die, your thoughts that very day perish, you stop living. You have no control over the HS who empowers you with living. The HS returns to GOD, and keeps records of the character you developed. That way you can be made living again at a later time.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 24, 2020 16:41:54 GMT -5
God said - let there be - and animals were created (Mind/Body) Some animals have a more developed Mind in that (Mind/Body) dogs over ants
I do not have an oissue with your insistance that this (Mind/Body) is energised by God or even the HS - because the HS is the matrix / ether / sustainer of the ALL
But - Gen 2:7 - man becomes (Soul + (Mind/Body)
When we die - (Mind/Body) completely dies - Agree But the Soul returns to God - to the presence of God - to heaven
Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.”
God test man - we live in a Contest
Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of humankind and the destiny of animals are one and the same. As one dies, so dies the other. Both have the same breath—a human has no advantage over an animal—both are fleeting. Ecc 3:20 Both go to one place. Both were taken from the dust, and both return to the dust.
Agree - (Mind/Body) goes to the dust
Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?
However - man is different when (Soul + (Mind/Body)) dies (Mind/Body) dies just like every other animal But - (Soul) returns to God
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 14:06:25 GMT -5
Dave you write:
But the Soul returns to God
This answer is NO
Nephesh does not return to GOD
Ruwach returns to GOD
And the verse you did not quote
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
Very simple and clear, is it not?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 25, 2020 19:18:33 GMT -5
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Word game Soul = locality Spirit = motion
Unless you think man has multiple spirits within - is this your point
You say the Rawach can only be the HS – so it is only HS that return to heaven with our memories No men in heaven – only memories
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
Very simple and clear, is it not? – YES!
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 18:32:36 GMT -5
You say the Rawach can only be the HS – so it is only HS that return to heaven with our memories No men in heaven – only memories
"so it is only HS that return to heaven with our memories, yes, if you have died"
"No men in heaven – only memories" Of course some men are raised and in heaven, Moses is one example of this. Others never saw death, like Enoch and Elijah. Others were raised from Jesus, who came to life again. Jesus was raised fully human again, ate food etc, yet retains his divinity .
Some are raised from grave, some went straight into heaven.
Why are you struggling with my words?
Where does Scripture speak of an eternal soul? It doesn't.
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Post by Dave on Jun 27, 2020 0:42:33 GMT -5
First you say"so it is only HS that return to heaven with our memories, yes, if you have died" Then you say Because you are not consistent – no men go to heaven – the HS only take their memories – but the heavens are filled with men – to which you say of course Which is it – do we go to heaven as an individual Or is it just our memories WOW – is this not the entire point of Christianity! – eternal life!Animals are (Mind/ Body) – if you want to call that (Nephesh/Body) OK But Gen 2:7 man is the only animal to receive the breath Wisdom 15:11 Because he knew not the one who fashioned him, and breathed into him a quickening soul, and infused a vital spirit. Man – (Soul +(Nephesh/Body)) The Book of the Secrets of Enoch – AKA – Slavonic book of Enoch23:2 And Pravuil told me: 'All the things that I have told thee, we have written. Sit and write all the souls of mankind, however many of them are born, and the places prepared for them to eternity; for all souls are prepared to eternity, before the formation of the world.'WOW – is this not the entire point of Christianity! – eternal life! Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. Should not perish – but have eternal lifeoh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. Eternal life – they shall never perish1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1Jn 5:11 And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Eternal life – how many more verses shall I post?Does not say – don’t exist until you are born a mortal – then die and sleep in a grave until laterMar 12:24 Jesus said unto them, Is it not for this cause that ye err, that ye know not the scriptures, nor the power of God? Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as angels in heaven. Mar 12:26 But as touching the dead, that they are raised; have ye not read in the book of Moses, in the place concerning the Bush, how God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: ye do greatly err. So this verse: Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Doesn't this just say God knows you before you're made, He is all knowing? And He knows all your going to do before you're born? YES! – God is omniscient – Agree Before thou camest out of the womb God sanctified thee This is a personal exchange between you and your Creator within the WombWe were created long before the physical world took shape The First aion / age took place in the heavens – in the spirit realm The Perfect race of Adam – the Bride of Christ present in Gen 1:2 To be repeated within the physical world – a reflection of heaven above Enoch wrote done the names of all the souls – is this the Book of Life? - unknown
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 2:14:22 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Dave: "Which is it – do we go to heaven as an individual
Rob: Yes, if your straight with GOD
Dave: "Or is it just our memories
Rob: I spoke this because GOD remembers who you are, so you can be fully raised, if required. So what makes you you, is fully remembered and recorded by GOD. So should you die, either righteous or unrighteous, you remain in the grave, until GOD raises you. Not all righteous are raised immediately upon their dead. David is still n the grave sleeping, as Scripture alludes to.
But some righteous were raised upon dying, such as Moses, and Jesus.
Some went straight on into heaven without dying, such as Enoch and Elijah.
Dave: WOW – is this not the entire point of Christianity! – eternal life!
Rob: AN eternal soul, is not the same as eternal life.
Adam and Eve received eternal living as long as they ate of the tree of living. We humans get the same experience in heaven.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 27, 2020 9:59:30 GMT -5
Dave: "Which is it – do we go to heaven as an individual Rob: Yes, if your straight with GOD So what makes you you, is fully remembered and recorded by GOD. So should you die, either righteous or unrighteous, you remain in the grave,
Still confused So we go to heaven as individuals – but we don’t go to heaven as individuals it is only our memory
So should you die, either righteous or unrighteous, you remain in the grave, until GOD raises you. Not all righteous are raised immediately upon their dead. David is still n the grave sleeping, as Scripture alludes to.
So we don’t go to heaven as an individual or as memories we just go to the grave and wait
But some righteous were raised upon dying, such as Moses, and Jesus.
Now God only raises only some of the righteous First Fruits is only for some Christians not all Christians Please explain this statement
How can you claim to be a Hebrew expert and not recognize the Jewish Divine Pardon Now you actually claim that the Promise of eternal life is only for some Christians
You are denying John 3:16 = all believers shall never perish – but have eternal life Why do you deny this?
Rob: AN eternal soul, is not the same as eternal life. This is a word game you play to keep it confusing My individuality – that thing that makes me=me – my soul has eternal life
My soul has eternal life – but you say this cannot mean my soul is eternal It is a word game
Ruwach I have a spirit – you have a spirit – and God has a spirit My spirit = ruwach – your spirit = ruwach – and God’s spirit – rawuch Therefore you say – the HS = ruwach – Therefore you say – my ruwach and your ruwach are just HS trapped within us WORD GAME
You deny the spirit – how can you pray in the spirit if you deny the spirit What does praying in the spirit mean to you – you close your eyes and the HS prays for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 16:16:06 GMT -5
Dave writes:
My soul has eternal life
No, you can be granted access to the tree of life, and eating it weekly, grant you eternal living, I showed you this before with Adam and Eve, and you agreed?
Dave writes: "
Therefore you say – my ruwach and your ruwach are just HS trapped within us WORD GAME
You obey Scripture or you don't obey Scripture, it's no word game. You cannot control or trap the HS within you.
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
Don't you understand what this verse is saying Dave?
Nothing can trap GOD, control GOD or such things.
Why twist my words, I never have used trapped.... divinity partners with humanity, its a relationship that causes "ongoing living"...
The words "eternal life" is a poor translation... The Hebrew is "chayah" which means living.
All references are NT only
Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)
This is a poetry parallel.
Sin - death Grace - Straightness (the fruit of which is eternal life)
So eternal life is the opposite of eternal death. And Sin is the opposite of being straight.
You speak of eternal life as if you own it, part of you... no You do not own anything, not even your character, this you receive daily from GOD too. Everything is based on GOD.... so your eternal living depends upon your daily living and supporting of God's powers.
Dave writes:"
First Fruits is only for some Christians not all Christians Please explain this statement
So GOD chose to raise some before the great raising of the righteous...during the Second Coming of Jesus. They are first fruits...
Le 2:12 As for the oblation of the firstfruits, ye shall offer them unto the LORD: but they shall not be burnt on the altar for a sweet savour.
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Our greatest hope, is the hope of eternal living in Jesus, when sleep in the grave.
1Co 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Dave writes: "Still confused So we go to heaven as individuals – but we don’t go to heaven as individuals it is only our memory"
For most of us, when we sleep, we sleep in the grave until the Second Coming. That very day our thoughts perish.
God remembers who we are and can raise us exactly as we were, so we need not worry about losing our memories of us. All sleep in the grave until the raising day, there are two raising days, the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked, these days are separated by 1000 years.
Some humans, first fruits, are in heaven today, fully as humans.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 27, 2020 17:38:51 GMT -5
Dave writes: My soul has eternal life
No, you can be granted access to the tree of life, and eating it weekly, grant you eternal living, I showed you this before with Adam and Eve, and you agreed?
You obey Scripture or you don't obey Scripture, it's no word game. You cannot control or trap the HS within you.
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
Don't you understand what this verse is saying Dave?
Nothing can trap GOD, control GOD or such things.
OK – let me try and understand your theology again There is no such thing as individual man – we are just animal robots that carry around the HS At mortal death ‘individual man’ never goes to heaven – the HS only has a record of the past
Then – regardless if you are a Christian or not – all animal men go to the grave Then later (sometime) – regardless if you are a Christian or not – only some get the reward of salvation Then later (sometime) – are animals bodies are resurrected in a heaven that must be a 3D construct just like earth – to accommodate animal bodies – of only a few
This animal cannot trap or control God – I absolutely agree My spirit within me is mine – no one else’s I was form before the foundation of the world – me – the individual
Just as angel Michael is an individual – or Angel Gab-briel is an individual
I am not the HS I am not God This is very scientology - we are all gods because we all have a piece of God within us
Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)
This is a poetry parallel. Sin – death Not poetry – just fact The wages of sin = death – remember Eve – mortal death However – through Jesus Christ we have salvation and eternal life (it is a shame you do not believe this)
Grace - Straightness (the fruit of which is eternal life) = salvation through Jesus Christ
So eternal life is the opposite of eternal death. – very profound And Sin is the opposite of being straight. - again
You speak of eternal life as if you own it, part of you... no If you do not have faith in it – you probably don’t have it If you doubt the promise of Judaism or Christianity – you probably don’t have it
You do not own anything, not even your character, this you receive daily from GOD too. Everything is based on GOD.... so your eternal living depends upon your daily living and supporting of God's powers.
So I am just an animal robot doing what God tells me to do every day So, when Eve disobeyed God – it was God that disobeyed God Are the angels also pieces of God within angelic bodies?
Dave writes:" First Fruits is only for some Christians not all Christians Please explain this statement
So GOD chose to raise some before the great raising of the righteous...during the Second Coming of Jesus. They are first fruits...
Again – you claim that the promise is only for some If you die in Christ – where it is OT or NT – you are saved – no discussion – fact If you do not believe this how can you be a Christian
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
If you believe in Jesus Christ – you are the First fruits – whether ahl or agl
1Co 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Those who slept from the time before the flood – you should include the passage instead of just a word 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. First – those who die in Christ Second – those who come later – after proportional punishment Third – those who come later with the Rapture – if you believe it And those at the end
For most of us, when we sleep, we sleep in the grave until the Second Coming. That very day our thoughts perish. Not if you have died in Christ
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Post by Dillon on Jun 27, 2020 23:48:19 GMT -5
HOME RESOURCES ARTICLE LIBRARY Awake beyond the Grave: What the Bible Says about Soul Sleep July 16, 2013by Brian Leicht
Death raises many questions: When will it happen? What will it be like? What is the soul's destiny? Chuck Swindoll addresses that last question in Growing Deep in the Christian Life:
When the believer dies, the body goes into the grave; the soul and spirit go immediately to be with the Lord Jesus awaiting the body's resurrection, when they're joined together to be forever with the Lord in eternal bliss.
Sadly, many fear their souls will have to wait indefinitely for heaven. "Soul sleep"—the belief that the soul rests after death in an unconscious state, or ceases to exist, until the final resurrection—finds its roots in the common "sleeping" metaphor for bodily death. Although this metaphor appears in Scripture, a thorough study shows that the metaphor of sleep refers only to the earthly body's inanimate state after death, not to the soul.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I speak with Scott every day. That would be hard if he was not listening.
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