Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 17:49:21 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I can see why this "other view" is so powerfully presented to you. It sort of makes sense, and the Scriptures sort of make sense, at least at first.
Dave writs: "Fixing was not my word choice – I would not have said it I would have said – we come here to endure the Contest of Gen 3:15 Because a prodigal son that returns is more precious.
I LIKE this.
Dave presents: "1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.
What does not decay – you realize that scripture is referencing two entirely different dimensions of existence Flesh and blood is of this dimension – there is nothing mortal in heaven – does not decay"
Sounds OK but:
Lu 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Lu 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Obviously Jesus did not have a "spirit body" after resurrection, Jesus has a "flesh and blood body", that had scars that healed and also required food.
So your text has to refer to no one can go to heaven with flesh bodies with corrupted DNA inside, that would cause a dying daily process. The DNA has to be fully restored as before sin and decay entered our world.
Dave writes: "The Gospel of the Egyptians - The Nag Hammadi Library After five thousand years, the great light Eleleth spoke: "Let someone reign over the chaos and Hades." … And the great angel Gamaliel spoke to the great Gabriel, the minister of the great light Oroiael; he said, "Let an angel come forth, in order that he may reign over the chaos and Hades."
I am not convinced GOD deliberately created the world with "chaos and Hades" to begin with. God may know both function and dysfunction, but GOD is not interested in dysfunction. Such chaos is about sin, alien to GOD. In fact disorder is alien to GOD, GOD is always functional, never a god of disorder as you imply.
God engineered creation to experience both function or dysfunction, should Adam choose dysfunction, but the lower world did not exist until Adam sinned.
You have archons created via the Holy Spirit of GOD, long before Adam sinned, makes the concept of later sinning pointless and meaningless. You also state archons have no free will, so cannot sin, are just programmed chaos machines to make mankind with free will choose to sin. Why? so love can be more fully developed. (my answer, you like)
Question: Was this need to make love more fully developed, necessary for the worlds to witness to? The question can be similar to, was it necessary for the unfallen worlds to see sin in action? What is sin? Or even chaos?
You make sin limited only to mankind, and mankind who only has free will. No other creature has this free will but mankind? I find this strange.
SO your implying "love was never demonstrated" for trillions of years in the universe, the angels cannot love, they are programmed to praise. A solitary divine Being cannot love, since it has only two expressions of itself, but not two beings capable of independent loving.
SO where is this "highly relational relationship stuff called love" in your universe? Only with man, not ever demonstrated before?
I would like to suggest love was in the universe trillions of years before man ever existed, in the three family members each loving each other, sure "poly" many divine members, with unique styles of love. But you have yet to prove the Hebrew word "elohiym" is NOT a family word to begin with.
The angels also demonstrate love in action, and have free will just as other heavenly creatures have, so love was developed fully for trillions of years.
So what went wrong? Nothing went wrong.
You reject this one verse, "cherub sinned", but it explains the "War in heaven" and the reason why things went wrong.
How did GOD react to the sin in heaven? He cast all the sinning angels to "earth a place also called hades". Than created a universe around the earth, with specifically mankind in mind as jury witnesses for court, so this "sin charge" would be forever ended in court.
When Adam sinned, why is there a court ruling over his sinning?
Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation,
What court ruling changed what in man?
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
God said the day you eat the fruit, you will daily die...
Death has to be the gradual withdrawal of God's presence from mankind, until the DNA, so fragmented by lost information, becomes corrupt, unable to respond to the live giving spark of divinity, that the "living machine" slowly dies, until the "living machine" stops working. You speak of this spark as an immortal part of man, if that were so, why does the man "daily die", ie the "spark becomes less able to sparkle you". When you plug a cord into the divine generator, the spark flows into the cord providing energy to do things. If the cord is removed or severed, the flow stops. The doing also stops. There is nothing the cord itself owns. It was just the material to allow the spark to flow or not to flow. Sin is like electrical resistance, sin opposes the flow of power from GOD. But you define "living machines" owning divine sparks, termed souls. This is not how "energy machines" work on earth, neither in the science world, nor in the spiritual world, or the biological world.
It was simply "a relationship that went wrong". Why did the angel change relationship? Scripture does not answer this question, but it does say the angel chose to sin, before the Most High, causing a relationship that opposes love.
If you remove mankind from your model, where is the "divine demonstration of loving" in your universe? You haven't got any... Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2020 20:38:39 GMT -5
Dave writs: "Fixing was not my word choice – I would not have said it I would have said – we come here to endure the Contest of Gen 3:15 Because a prodigal son that returns is more precious.
I LIKE this. – it fits my reality
Flesh and blood is of this dimension – there is nothing mortal in heaven – does not decay" Sounds OK but:
Lu 24:37 – 43 - Obviously Jesus did not have a "spirit body" after resurrection, Jesus has a "flesh and blood body", that had scars that healed and also required food.
Again – you insist that God, Christ, the HS, and all of the angels must be like / act like / and think like men
I just demonstrated to you the intra-dimensionality of all these beings You are trapped here because you are corporeal – made of 3D substance The heavens are so much more
The Apocryphon of John - The Nag Hammadi Library The teaching of the savior, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple.
And it happened one day, when John, the brother of James - who are the sons of Zebedee … - (WHO?) - behold, the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken. I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light a youth who stood by me. While I looked at him, he became like an old man. And he changed his likeness (again), becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms.
He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass,
Point – ahl and agl all refer to – I saw the LIKENESS OF They knew they were not describing it accurately – it was in the likeness of this or that = It was in the likeness of multiple things
Jesus was in the form of multiple things in front of John - is this a corruption of His divinity Or a simple realization that He is a multiple dimensional being – Angels have different forms – different faces – to represent to different sides to their function
We are just stupid dust bodies that are easily fooled into seeing whatever they want us to see
During the period of the Nag Hammadi – the 50 days before Pentecost Jesus was fully human – and divine with all its implications – He could come and go as He willed What age is Christ? Immortal – so if John saw Him as a young boy or an old man or a servant To me – this is not shape shifting – it is just a fact that Christ transcends time
So your text has to refer to no one can go to heaven with flesh bodies
OK – I will clarify for you – noting corporeal – nothing made of 3D matter You cannot force a 3D being into a 2D reality – by definition it is not compatible You cannot promote a 3D being into the higher dimensions / heavens without altering his 3D construct
They must put on their heavily clothing
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
God engineered creation to experience both function or dysfunction, should Adam choose dysfunction, but the lower world did not exist until Adam sinned.
God created it all – correct – Gnostic call this the ALL to mean much more than just 3D reality In the first age / aion – choshek happened – the archon were given a new home to rule – earth Adam and Eve are the second age / aion – the serpent is already here – this is his domain – earth Adam and Eve began in Eden – it was your tov only paradise – but they were ejected to where They were ejected to a world where the archon were on the ground – their world – they had it first The Rabbi says a lower world – isn’t a world that is now tov and ra lower than just tov only?
No matter how you look at it Adam and Eve – to a step down – or the whole world just came into view as it truly is – the gift of knowledge
You have archons created via the Holy Spirit of GOD, long before Adam sinned, makes the concept of later sinning pointless and meaningless. First age / aion – second age / aion – the contest repeats itself Adam and Eve / mankind is given a second chance – in a world filled with archon, bane elohiym, Nephilim, chimeras – Noah become the Christ savior Mankind starts over – but they organize to take the battle back to the archon – who are now in heaven God looks down and says – doing this they can do anything What were they doing – reaching for the stars Jewish legend says – as they built the tower – they shot their arrows in the heavens which returned bloodied – who were they fighting God? And God said STOP IT – to the contest was limited only to the earthly perspective
You also state archons have no free will, so cannot sin, are just programmed chaos machines to make mankind with free will choose to sin. Why? so love can be more fully developed. (my answer, you like)
Question: Was this need to make love more fully developed, necessary for the worlds to witness to? The question can be similar to, was it necessary for the unfallen worlds to see sin in action? What is sin? Or even chaos?
You make sin limited only to mankind, and mankind who only has free will. No other creature has this free will but mankind? I find this strange. The ahl and agl were written for man – it is the view of the heavens given to man by God It is the instruction manual for man to become close to his creator – to awaken – to remember In the meantime – it is the instruction manual for how to do Mitvah It is a history of the Jewish people filled with information The Rabbi will tell you that the Torah was the Template upon which God dropped the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet to form all creation
It is not an instruction manual on how to be an angel – Gnostic literature is full of angelic beings doing different functions – all were are told about ids their functions
Other than the writings of King Solomon The Nag Hammadi is the only other surviving texts that speak of the archon side of the theology This was additional – secret revelations given to the deciples
SO your implying "love was never demonstrated" for trillions of years in the universe, the angels cannot love, they are programmed to praise. A solitary divine Being cannot love, since it has only two expressions of itself, but not two beings capable of independent loving.
AGAIN – THREE forms E = mc2 I am says as a man in 3D reality I can see and measure / experience the m and c2 Also as a 3D man – I am equally unable to measure the E / experience the E
Exo 33:17 Adonai answered Moses, “I will also do what you have said, for you have found favor in My sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Then he said, “Please, show me Your glory!” 19 So He said, “I will cause all My goodness to pass before you, and call out the Name of Adonai before you. I will be gracious toward whom I will be gracious, and I will show mercy on whom I will be merciful.”
Exo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” No man can experience the E – we are of different substance
Exo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. Exo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.”
God said to Moses – you can see my Glory (Holy Spirit – c2) And Moses got to see God’s back – (Image – Christ – m) But no one can see the E
Dose this eliminate the E from the equation? NO!
First you say: SO where is this "highly relational relationship stuff called love" in your universe? Then you say: The angels also demonstrate love in action
Again – if you have to have a human equivalent Newborns love you – they know no other nature
You can argue that newborns have free will and that some newborns oppose God – but it just seem silly
Question - So what went wrong? Good Question – a catholic who has one sided theology – what I call the Feel Good Christians Good is only Good / only tov – then Christians are left with the question – what went wrong?
Scripture says – again
Isa 45:7 (TLV) I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity (ra). I, Adonai, do all these things. Pro 16:4 Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Answer – nothing went wrong – we live in the multiverse God created God is in absolute control – God’s will – God’s plan
Do you insist that God’s plan isn’t a good one just because you cannot understand the view from His perspective?
You reject this one verse, "cherub sinned", but it explains the "War in heaven" and the reason why things went wrong.
The Contest moved from the First age / aion to the next age /aion in a cyclical manner
When Adam sinned, why is there a court ruling over his sinning? Because he “choose” to follow Eve Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, YES! – absolutely agree – started with the very first married homo sapaien couple - Carnal
What court ruling changed what in man? OK – I know you have a long study about DNA – cool However – we are Adam and Eve – they chose – and we choose
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; Look me in the eye Robert and tell me you have never sinned Or that when you did sin – it wasn’t your fault – it was Adams fault Sorry Robert – we are all Adam – and as children we choose carnal every time By the time you fell to your knees before the Lord – you were already as guilty as Adam ever was
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 13:56:56 GMT -5
Greetings Dave:
You present some interesting ideas:
You present a very interesting passage:"
The Apocryphon of John - The Nag Hammadi Library The teaching of the savior, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple.
And it happened one day, when John, the brother of James - who are the sons of Zebedee … - (WHO?) - behold, the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken. I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light a youth who stood by me. While I looked at him, he became like an old man. And he changed his likeness (again), becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms.
He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass,
Why isn't this message in the Hebrew Scripture?
"There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son."
Sure light is a family of many forms, heat, UV, radio, Xrays, gamma rays, etc.
So the Gnostic say light can express a "Father, Mother and Son" form from this one family of light. It could make sense, but where is such a concept found in the Hebrew Scriptures?
Shalom
PS perhaps here:
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)
Three descriptions of water?
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Is this helping?
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 15, 2020 20:58:42 GMT -5
Why isn't this message in the Hebrew Scripture?
1- it was written after the close of the ahl 2- probably written after 70AD 3- place on the Roman Index
(Wiki) - History A book called the Apocryphon of John was referred to by Irenaeus in Adversus Haereses, written about 185, among "an indescribable number of secret and illegitimate writings, which they themselves have forged, to bewilder the minds of foolish people, who are ignorant of the true scriptures"[2]—scriptures which Irenaeus himself was establishing as the "Fourfold gospel" that his authority helped make the canonical four.
"There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son."
Sure light is a family of many forms, heat, UV, radio, Xrays, gamma rays, etc. YES! - we live in a multiverse - heaven is of an entire different energy level - each heaven
So the Gnostic say light can express a "Father, Mother and Son" form from this one family of light. It could make sense, but where is such a concept found in the Hebrew Scriptures? Using your words Father light can express Mother and Son
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. What translation? - all mine say water
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2020 13:41:13 GMT -5
Greetings Dave,
About your model view of elohiym, expressions from the same entity, "Father expressions, Mother expressions and Son expressions". There is no love, no relationship because there are no bodies separated from each other.
In other words, your model cannot love. Is not relational. Cannot demonstrate love.
Whereas my model can demonstrate love, is love, and is not three gods as you would like to view them.
A Jew cannot violate His own Hebrew.
If the two bodies become unified into one body, the Father's body is the same as the Wife's body in marriage, we have essentially one body. Yet Hebrew writes all things as grammar masculine and grammar feminine, only two forms, for a reason. Everything in Hebrew has these two expressions of the WORD.
Hebrew says masculine He singular created the heavens and earth. yet clearly the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were all present as well. Gen 1:26 says let us create. Why does Scripture write us? With feminine and masculine, the "Us" would not be written, but when two masculines bodies are present, "Us" is written.
Jeff Benner speaks Hebrews sees things as parts of a whole. Have you read His books such as Living Word?
Jeff translates GOD as "elohiym powers" this is respectful. But He dares not to unravel the Hebrew word "elohiym" whereas I do, given Ephesians 3:15,16
Elohiym is given the Hebrew word "family" here.
Is this another one verse theology you also reject?
Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 16, 2020 22:24:07 GMT -5
A Jew cannot violate His own Hebrew. You keep telling that that the entire jewish community is wrong - you say this a lot
If the two bodies become unified into one body, God is not a mortal being - stop comparing Him to an animal
Jeff Benner speaks Hebrews sees things as parts of a whole. 3 parts of 1 whole - I agree
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 13:55:04 GMT -5
Dave replies: "You keep telling that that the entire Jewish community is wrong - you say this a lot
Greetings Dave, thanks for your answer.
Well you respect Jews, and are influenced by them. As a "Jew" you do not read the "Jewish writings" with respect, you ignore sentences you don't like... Gordon does the same thing...
"cherub chata" you ignore, remember?
Jews do not read line upon line, neither do you. Jews pick which contexts fit their view, and ignore the ones that don't like.
So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals" Gordon, 2003
Compare this with:
"It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural."(Gordon, 2003).
So all this means the word "elohiym" changes meaning depending upon context.
Do all Hebrew words work like this? No. This is really strange way to ascertain meaning of a word. I could not understand German is words have different meanings depending upon context.
Yet I can read German, if I use my technique that says words in any language have a single basic meaning (unless its a multiple meaning word - rare).
For example "herr" in German means "Lord".
Gordon has an interesting comment to make about this verse.
"Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a "great God". On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them. The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them."
So Gordon would say Dagon is not a multiple god, I thought these gods belonged to a family of deities?
Ge 20:13 And it came to pass, when ELOHIM (with plural verb) caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.
"So contrary to the expected rule of Elohim getting a singular verb, here Elohim gets a plural verb. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". From this verse alone it indeed appears that Abraham worshipped multiple gods whom he believed had caused him to wander from his father's house. However, this hardly fits the overall picture."
So Gordon follows the majority of contexts about ELohiym, he does not fit all contexts into a single basic meaning.
Yet when I read Martin Luther's translation of Hebrew into German, every German word is the same for each Hebrew word. Luther makes the German words consistent. This is how a translation should be.
Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2020 0:49:18 GMT -5
Well you respect Jews, and are influenced by them. As a "Jew" you do not read the "Jewish writings" with respect, you ignore sentences you don't like... Gordon does the same thing...
"cherub chata" you ignore, remember?
The King of Tyre - what about him - got to big for his britches We are all the King of tyre What am I ignoring? You ignore that your view is entirely inconsistent with each and every reference to satan in the ahl we went over all 49 + 23 and you never once showed me satan opposing God
In fact you just gave up and ignore all of them and then the entire book of Job
Jews pick which contexts fit their view, and ignore the ones that don't like. A Jewish Rabbi understands the ahl better than you and I ever will You have no clue what goes on the in Jewish Institute in Jersusalam
So all this means the word "elohiym" changes meaning depending upon context. How much time did we spend on Polysemy - you said absolutely no polysemy in Hebrew More word games - or by preaching absolutism you keep having to make exceptionss to your own absolutes
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2020 9:54:00 GMT -5
When we die: The ruwach goes forth, returns to GOD The nephesh needs a body, so ceases to be nephesh. The holy spirit returns to GOD with our character record. You are very inconsistant Please explain this statement in more detail So when we die - we do not go to heaven The HS only returns with our "character record" So - you never stand judgment? - You are not even at the Great White Throne Judgment - only a "record of your character" So no one ever goes into the Lake of Fire because it only the "record of us" For me - we live as soul - soul is life Soul pre-exist conception - life pre-existed conception After birth - we exist as life within a body (Soul + (Mind/Body) Every other animal running around here exist as (Mind/body) Only Man exist as (Soul + (Mind/Body) After mortal death - life continues to live - the Soul continues and returns to God Life lives - the Soul continues after its return to God At Judgement - each Soul is judged If you are not written in the Book of life - you cease to continue If you are - you simply continue This view is 100% Jewish and Christian and Gnostic You are the only person I have ever met that gets so twisted up in vocabulary
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2020 4:52:27 GMT -5
Greetings Dave:
Le 17:15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean.
Dave : WRITES "Only Man exist as (Soul + (Mind/Body)
All living creatures with breath of life in them, are nephesh. So please explain this Bible verse clash with your view?
Dave writes: "For me - we live as soul - soul is life
No where does Scripture say this.
Creatures have the "breathing <n@shamah> of life <chay>" or and both:
"breath <ruwach> (Holy Spirit) of life <chay>"
No where does it say nephesh is chay.
Job 10:1 ¶ My soul <nephesh> is weary <naqat> of my life <chay>;
Job does not describe "soul as life"
Ps 66:9 Which holdeth <suwm> our soul <nephesh> in life <chay>,
?
Ps 143:3 For the enemy <'oyeb> hath persecuted <radaph> my soul <nephesh>; he hath smitten <daka'> my life <chay> down <daka'> to the ground <'erets>; he hath made me to dwell <yashab> in darkness <machshak>, as those that have been long <`owlam> dead <muwth>. 4 Therefore is my spirit <ruwach> overwhelmed <`ataph> within me; my heart <leb> within <tavek> me is desolate <shamem>.
No mention of soul is life, in fact it says Holy Spirit is overwhelmed as the soul is smitten to the ground in death.
Dave inquires: "
Please explain this statement in more detail So when we die - we do not go to heaven The HS only returns with our "character record" So - you never stand judgment? - You are not even at the Great White Throne Judgment - only a "record of your character" So no one ever goes into the Lake of Fire because it only the "record of us"
So when we die - we do not go to heaven .....No
The HS only returns with our "character record" .....yes
So - you never stand judgment? The Holy spirit returns to the dry valley of bones, and breaths upon them the breath of life once more, and the dead all rise, their character records return to each one as before they died.
There are two resurrection's, the first is for the saints, the second is for the wicked. Both face judgement, the saints are saved by grace in Jesus during judgement, but the wicked stand with their sinning records.
So no one ever goes into the Lake of Fire....yes wicked are destroyed... they experience personal pain for each proportional sinning they did, and when they die the nephesh is reduced to ash, and the character record of them is lost forever. Nothing remains of anything of their existence.
The only eternal memorial of sin, is the scarred body Jesus has, the wounds on his hands, a memorial of victory over sin. The memories of the saints will fade over time, but we never forget our Saviour.
Hope this helps Shalom Happy Sabbath
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2020 12:13:17 GMT -5
Le 17:15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean.
Dave : WRITES "Only Man exist as (Soul + (Mind/Body)
All living creatures with breath of life in them, are nephesh. So please explain this Bible verse clash with your view?I really do not follow your thinking I say the grass is green - but you say I’m wrong because roses are red Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among them, that eateth any manner of blood, I will set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. Speaking about ahl followers - Blood is not Kosher - do not eat itLev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life. 1- Life of flesh is blood - remove the blood flesh dies Blood is a metaphor for our souls with us (it is who we are) Our souls is the life within us 2- It is a metaphor for - life for life - Jesus for us 3- This is also a medical text - blood was to be burnt on the alter and never eaten Today we call it Blood Born Pathogens - hepatitis, herpes, STDs, (today HIV) eating blood could expose you to thousands of potential health risksLev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. Lev 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among them, who taketh in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten; he shall pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. Do not eat the blood - medical textLev 17:14 For as to the life of all flesh, the blood thereof is all one with the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh; for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. now your text - is a promise of salvationLev 17:15 And every soul that eateth that which dieth of itself, or that which is torn of beasts, whether he be home-born or a sojourner, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. dieth of itself - old age, accident, warfare or dieth by animal attack - lion, tigers, bacteria, viruses he can was himself (this is the key - washing himself) - but will never be clean Until ---- - until what?
We enter heaven with our earth garments stained with sin until - we receive our heavenly garments - divine pardon(salvation through Christ)Lev 17:16 But if he wash them not, nor bathe his flesh, then he shall bear his iniquity. If we do not receive this heavenly pardon (salvation through Christ) - proportional Punishment until the Lake of FireDave writes: "For me - we live as soul - soul is life No where does Scripture say this. How about Lev 17?Job does not describe "soul as life" Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; Word game - Job’s Soul (the spark that makes him Job) is weary of his 3D existance Psa 66:9 Who holdeth our soul in life, And suffereth not our feet to be moved. Psa 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: Thou hast tried us, as silver is tried. As we pass through this Contest - God holdeth our Soul H7760 - A primitive root; to put (used in a great variety of applications, literally, figuratively, inferentially and elliptically): - X any wise, appoint, bring, call , care, cast in, change, charge, commit, consider, convey, determine, + disguise, dispose, do, get, give, heap up, hold, impute, lay (down, up), leave, look, make (out), mark, + name, X on, ordain, order, + paint, place, preserve, purpose, put (on), + regard, rehearse, reward, (cause to) set (on, up), shew, + stedfastly, take, X tell, + tread down, ([over-]) turn, X wholly, work.As we pass through this Contest / testing - God holdeth our Soul -
Psa 23:4 Yea, thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me;Psa 143:3 For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; He hath smitten my life down to the ground: He hath made me to dwell in dark places, as those that have been long dead.The archon persecuted my soul and ruined my mortal existence until I die just like everyone before meNo mention of soul is lifeYou are so trapped in your word games - stuck in vocabularySo when we die - we do not go to heaven The HS only returns with our "character record" So you have this theory that when we die - we experience no heaven - not even any type of judgment at all upon entering heaven - we all just sleep Then later we are reunited with our resurrected bodies - then judged Scripture pleaseI will tell you right now that this view is not constant with Judaism, or Christianity, or even Gnosticism at all
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2020 16:16:52 GMT -5
You spoke nicely about the blood context of Lev 17, but missed the context we introduced: that is, that man only has a soul.
Man does not only have a soul, all living creatures also have soul.
Lev 17:16 says when a soul dieth of itself, do not eat the meat.
Le 7:24 And the fat of the beast that dieth of itself, and the fat of that which is torn with beasts, may be used in any other use: but ye shall in no wise eat of it.
Le 22:8 That which dieth of itself, or is torn with beasts, he shall not eat to defile himself therewith: I am the LORD.
Why can't we eat such animals that are clean? Because they died of itself, meaning it died of cancer or some internal disease, making eating the animal bad for you, even though it is a clean animal to eat.
That is off topic, like you telling me about blood, also off topic...
Question: Is man the only creature with a soul?
Answer: No
Let 17:16 says this.
Ps 42:1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.
A poetry simile of parallel, as deer pants, man's soul pants.
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Our soul is valued, but the bird's soul is not, but GOD notices all that fall to the ground. This passage is also a simile.
Ge 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Birds have nephesh, ie soul
Ge 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth,
Whales have soul.
There are numerous texts on this Dave... Man is not the only creature with a soul.
Rev 19 speaks of the second coming of Jesus, as a both judgement and war.
Rev 20 adds details to Rev 19
Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Satan and all sinful angels are bound to earth for 1000 years, while all things are dead, so the saints with Jesus, judge the fate of the dead people, the wicked. Why they miss out on eternal life.
Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The saints, with Jesus judge the wicked, the wicked angels and Satan, as to why they failed in sin.
Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
After the 1000 year Sabbath rest, the whole of mankind is raised. Satan sees a chance to get all the wicked to fight for the city that descends upon the earth.
The rest of Rev 20, describes the fate of the wicked, after judging them, GOD gives them also a judgement. He places a video over the sky showing Jesus, who came and died, and than every wicked person sees the sins that kept them from heaven.
All are defeated, and bow on their knees to Jesus, who shows that love is stronger than sin, even the wicked angels bow and Satan too on their knees. Soon all the wicked are destroyed and seen no more... the eternal flames of love, the blazing glory of GOD making the saints fireproof, burn the wicked who are not fireproof, are burned according to their sins, some faster than others. Satan is the last creature to die, than there is nothing, all traces of sin cease to exist, except the scars on the body of Jesus.
Read Rev 19 and 20, and you get the picture easily, as it is written.
Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2020 23:49:35 GMT -5
Question: Is man the only creature with a soul? Answer: No Let 17:16 says this.Lev 17:16 But if he wash them not, nor bathe his flesh, then he shall bear his iniquity. This proves insects and squirrels have souls – how?Ps 42:1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. A poetry simile of parallel, as deer pants, man's soul pants. My soul longs for the Lord as a deer longs for the babbling brook This proves insects and squirrels have souls – how?Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Absolutely – man can only kill the body – archon help you forget (don’t awaken)29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Absolutely – God is Omniscient31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. YES! – because we are the creature that chooses We are the creatures that knew God before conception – souljourning here with the Free Will choice – and will return to God when mortality is at an endGe 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Birds have nephesh, ie soulLook at what you do – this passage says Waters – bring forth -“moving creature that hath life” - and fowl So you say – this is proof Birds “hath life” also I say - Not from this verse – you violate grammar There are numerous texts on this Dave... Man is not the only creature with a soul.There are numerous text on this Rob … the are many living creatures – but man is the only one with the breath of life
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man is the only living soul We are the only creature with a Free Will choice to seek God or notSo when we die - we do not go to heaven .....No The HS only returns with our "character record" .....yes 1Pe 3:18 (TLV) For Messiah once suffered for sins also—the righteous for the unrighteous—in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Ruach. 1Pe 3:19 (TLV)Through the Ruach He also went and preached to the spirits in prison. Who did Jesus preach to? If everyone is asleep?Why aren’t the Rich man and Lazareth asleep in Luke 16 You have offered this verse as proof no one goes to heavenJoh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, … and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2Co 12:4 (Paul) How that he was caught up into paradise, comments
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 13:03:27 GMT -5
It's funny how we can get different Scriptures to suit out different views.
Why is the "moving water context", talking about whales, which you ignore, but you focus upon my "fowl context" and say I violate scripture, grammar.
Either the "water moves in all things", or it doesn't. According to you, only mankind has the water moving of the breath of life from the Holy Spirit, all other creatures do not have "nephesh", according to you.
OK what about whales in this context?
Ge 1:21 And God <'elohiym> created <bara'> great <gadowl> whales <tanniyn>, and every living <chay> creature <nephesh>.
I see "chay" "nephesh" which "elohiym bara". Simple enough. All creatures have nephesh which is alive because of GOD's power of life in them.
OK in the second questions, you can find passages where some people are raised to heaven, such as Enoch, Elijah and possibly others. Question: Does the "nephesh apart from the flesh" go to heaven, or did these "nephesh with their flesh" go to heaven, which is it? You're changed the topic concerning death and life.
My point is from Scripture, once you die, everything dies. Once you are raised to life, everything lives, including the flesh and body. You cannot separate this into parts as you are doing.
Sure their is an eternal relationship within the nephesh, but this is the Ruwach, the Holy Spirit as a divine Person, not some eternal "spark" you claim ownership of. Matter cannot own anything. All things come from GOD, you said this yourself and agree to this, yet you also make this absurd exception that Man, only Man has an eternal soul? What Hebrew word is that? It's not nephesh, because all creatures, such as the whale have nephesh with chay, just as mankind does. Its not ruwach, that word means "Holy Spirit" in many applications. There is no Hebrew word for your idea, hence why Jews mix these Hebrew words to invent a brand new concept, that is not in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Now if Jesus walked with and spoke to stiff neck people, He was trying to save... Did Jesus speak to them always in His ideal language of love and truth, or did Jesus try to break through the stiff necks, and reach them in their error of their ways, with the mixing of confusion they were mixed up in?
This is an important question, otherwise all the parables must contain truths at every level.
Mustard seeds must be the smallest seeds of all the herbs. Lazurus must have gone to hell with a talking thinking soul component.
What is the truth that Jesus spoke in their error that He was trying to break them from?
Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
And this point:
Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (KJV)
So the teachings of Moses and the prophets are our guide to truth. Begin with these messages first, and get all the other lines of Scripture in harmony.
I have done this, I show you Genesis 1:21. Whales have "nephesh with chay", they got this from the "moving water" . What is the moving water a symbol of?
Ge 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The powers of Elohiym via the Holy Spirit, fluttering as a bird upon the water, is this a symbol of.
This means the nephesh is alive because the GOD's powers flowing in the flesh (the matter) GOD chooses to make living.
It is clear from Genesis, that all creatures have this "chay nephesh" thing. Not just mankind only.
Scripture tells us to begin with the teachings of Moses, and the prophets, and spread out upon every line upon line from there. This is what I do.
Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 22, 2020 15:05:13 GMT -5
It's funny how we can get different Scriptures to suit out different views. Why is the "moving water context", talking about whales, which you ignore, but you focus upon my "fowl context" and say I violate scripture, grammar. My father gave me a red wagon, and a dress Prove to me from this one sentence that dress is red You say it proves the bird’s have nephesh
Either the "water moves in all things", or it doesn't. YES! – the HS is the matrix and either that supports all things According to you, only mankind has the water moving of the breath of life from the Holy Spirit, YES! – Gen 2:7 – the only creature with the breath of life that makes him a living being - Correct all other creatures do not have "nephesh", according to you. I do? – what about the tree, dog, and fish – living creatures
OK what about whales in this context? Ge 1:21 And God <'elohiym> created <bara'> great <gadowl> whales <tanniyn>, and every living <chay> creature <nephesh>.
I see "chay" "nephesh" which "elohiym bara". Simple enough. All creatures have nephesh which is alive because of GOD's power of life in them. Simple enough – for whales I thought I said maybe – they sing to God
OK in the second questions, you can find passages where some people are raised to heaven, such as Enoch, Elijah and possibly others. Question: Does the "nephesh apart from the flesh" go to heaven, or did these "nephesh with their flesh" go to heaven, which is it? You're changed the topic concerning death and life.
What does Paul say? 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Messiah (whether in the body I don’t know, or whether out of the body I don’t know—God knows)—fourteen years ago, he was caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows)— 2Co 12:4 he was caught up into Paradise and heard words too sacred to tell, which a human is not permitted to utter.
You're changed the topic concerning death and life. SDA and you say there can be no men in heaven – we are all in the grave sleeping To think otherwise is a sin
Scripture tells of at three exceptions to your absolute rule – I ask you to justify your absolute rule and you say I am off subject
My point is from Scripture, once you die, everything dies. Once you are raised to life, everything lives, including the flesh and body. You cannot separate this into parts as you are doing Then how are Moses and Eliash standing with Christ during the transfiguration They should both be sleeping in the grave Why isn’t anyone in Luke 16 sleeping in a grave
Sure their is an eternal relationship within the nephesh, but this is the Ruwach, the Holy Spirit as a divine Person, not some eternal "spark" you claim ownership of. I hear what you are saying Adam was not an individual being – he was just a spark of the HS Eve was not an individual being – she also was just a spark of the HS Therefore it was the HS that fell from grace And it is not the individual you or me that stand judgment – just the spark of the HS
If Adam and Eve are not individual beings – then how can you blame the state of the world on Adam as you do
This is an important question, otherwise all the parables must contain truths at every level. Mustard seeds must be the smallest seeds of all the herbs. Lazurus must have gone to hell with a talking thinking soul component.
First you say no one enters the great beyond / afterlife Now you tell me Lazarus went to great beyond / afterlife You have a conflicting theology
Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. YES! – there are no such thing as Ghost – only archon imposters
And this point:
Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. YES! – even as Israel did not listen in the age of Abraham – so the Gentiles will also not listen during the age of the Gentile
So the teachings of Moses and the prophets are our guide to truth. Yet! – you do your best to discredit all of Judaism
I have done this, I show you Genesis 1:21. Whales have "nephesh with chay", they got this from the "moving water" . What is the moving water a symbol of? Moving water = Holy Spirit – the matrix of the universe Ge 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Yes! – this is how God move upon / through / over a distance as Spirit = God’s Spirit = Holy Spirit
The powers of Elohiym via the Holy Spirit, fluttering as a bird upon the water, is this a symbol of. Birds flying in the air – ZERO prove they have the Nephesh from this single senttence My father gave me a red wagon, and a dress Prove to me from this one sentence that dress is red You say it proves the bird’s have nephesh
This means the nephesh is alive because the GOD's powers flowing in the flesh (the matter) GOD chooses to make living. YES! – the HS is the Matrix / ether / that supports and sustains the ALL
It is clear from Genesis, that all creatures have this "chay nephesh" thing. Not just mankind only.
Your earlier passage was about things that crawled and swam in the waters – and birds No proof from this passage nephesh in Birds
Gen 1:24 Then God said, “Let the land bring forth living creatures according to their species—livestock, crawling creatures and wild animals, according to their species.” And it happened so. Gen 1:25 God made the wild animals according to their species, the livestock according to their species, and everything that crawls on the ground, each according to its species. And God saw that it was good.
This passage is about the land creatures – no nephesh here
We are speaking of two entirely different things I am speaking of the soul – you speak of the energy that fuels the other creatures
To me man is a special thing You just make him an animal standing judgment next to the dogs, squirrels, and fish
|
|