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Post by Dave on Jul 13, 2020 16:28:17 GMT -5
Dave writes:"We should study the Prodicial Son One son stayed home – always saved – like angels who never left their first estate One son – stayed away from home and we are given the impression – he lived in sin When the lost son returns – he is more valued – why?
Because the lost son came home on his own Because the lost son appreciates the fathers forgiveness Because the father appreciates how hard it was for the son to return
The first son the one that stayed home – are like the angels – sure they love God – they know no other The lost son – had to admit he was wrong – had to admit he was selfish – had to confess to himself that he was wrong – this is the human experience
The Son (angels) who stayed home, had an experience of love as you say. Correct. Did the Son who stayed home, sin or do RA? No The Father never tested him to do RA or to sin either? They just loved each other. For me – this probably describes the angels in heaven – they just worship
True the Son who loved His Dad and stayed home never knew forgiveness, but he wasn't missing much, really, who wants to do RA anyhow? It's not love anyhow. As you say – SELF Yester ra of Self wants to do carnal satisfaction – it is an instinctive function of (Mind/Body) animal – alpha male syndrome
Much of your yester Tov and tester Ra, applies to AFTER sin came into the Father's world of love, You don't see this.... After? – Seriously – please be serious Could Eve have chosen yester ra - if it did not exist with her Could Adam have chosen yester ra to join Eve in sin – if it did not exist within him This was God’s gift to man – the ability to choose It existed in Eve and Adam all the time – or they could have never choose it
Every man = (Mind/Body) animal – that has listened to yester ra – at least once in our lives Maybe it was at age 2 months - but Jesus and God both have told us – we are all sinners
I am not talking about AFTER SIN or RA came, but before it came.
You have the HS creating the archons during the creation of man, hence BOTH RA and TOV during man, BEFORE they SINNED, hence it's not a choice to sin, you already have BEINGS sinning.
Please tell me your impression of this passage Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. Before Gen 1:3 Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. There was no mortal man Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Cities – of whom – no mortal men – no earth to have mortal cities Your Feel Good God of LOVE ONLY – had FIERCE ANGER Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. choshek Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. The earth will mourn – because the Beast and his archon are cast from heaven to earth
You cannot program a choice, if both pathways of choice are already running. Sin is a choice. So if you provide two options to choose between it eliminates choice I really do not understand your point
You have archons already doing the RA choice, and God doing the Tov choice, Creating man with no choice, because both choices are already running. I have God creating man with no choice - ? – you know better
In my model, the sinning Being is told to Adam and Eve during their Creation, so they are aware of the sin already in the universe. OK – how does this make your satan the free will leader of evil Instead – you claim that Eve was fully informed making her choice even worse
Rob replies: "My friend, its true RA does not exist under light that is very strong and very large as a source, or of the object causing the RA shadow gets too close to the light source. If fact by definition and logic, a sinner is not going to have a close relationship to a light source, nor be anywhere near it. Yet – standing in God’s presence your satan revolted And when your satan stand before the Lord in Job – satan was not consumed by God’s light / destroyed
It does say in Rev, war in heaven. It also says angels were fighting in the war. Why isn’t ra destroyed by the light – your shadow actually fights a standoff with the light of God
Your model cannot explain where sinning came from. Only that God created a RA being who was designed to do sinning. That model says GOD designed sinning, and makes God a sinner because of the designing.
You can call God a sinner if you want to – you seem to have the authority My God is the absolute Creator of everything – period You can deny this all day long – yet in the end there is only one Creator
My model has love and its opposite pathway, both fully known by God and programmed as a choice by God, but only one pathway was open (tov) and the other pathway was closed (ra) unless a love being chose to open it, thus no longer love GOD. Hence love has risk. OK – then the Chief Archon spoke
This model implies some creature sinned long before man sinned. And thus GOD has to react to this sinning... Again you have the Creator playing defense to an aggressor god God is absolute – plays defense to no one What a ridicules idea But you would never diminish God
That means to sin or not to sin, is NO longer a choice. Sinning is a response to GOD.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
We are tempted with choices each and every day The more pious we become – the harder the testing
Your model also removes love as a risk. WHAT – the father takes a risk every time the prodicial son leaves home, because not all sons return – do they
My wife loves me whether I am good or bad, You just gave me three post in a row telling me that it is impossible to do good and bad Either you are all good – or all bad
But you are correct - love is unconditional - God loves us even if we have forgotten all about him - He never stops loving us
But this is uni-directional -
Bi-directional love would be when creation / man loves God back uncondidtionally
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 14:02:42 GMT -5
Please tell me your impression of this passage
The story of the destruction of Jerusalem is a metaphor of the cities of the world destroyed during the second coming of Jesus, after the RA they do is fully reached.
The destruction is a simile of how the earth was before it was created.
Your asking me, does our universe come naturally with RA, before GOD makes Tov out of it? Since all things come from GOD, the simple answer for me is no. God only makes this Tov. But I see your view, and its natural conclusion.
I do not see GOD as a Being who makes order from disorder. I see GOD as a Being who is order, period. What's all this disorder than? Its the result of sin....
---------- You didn't answer our differences:
Rob says:"I am not talking about AFTER SIN or RA came, but before it came.
You have the HS creating the archons during the creation of man, hence BOTH RA and TOV during man, BEFORE they SINNED, hence it's not a choice to sin, you already have BEINGS sinning.
You do not understand this. If mankind has both RA and TOV already running in a world, it's not a fair test. Yet the archons were already in the world, correct. Doing RA, helping Eve to also do RA.
Notice my words: "You have the HS creating the archons during the creation of man, hence BOTH RA and TOV during man, BEFORE they SINNED, hence it's not a choice to sin, you already have BEINGS sinning.
If fact Dave is GOD created RA Beings programmed to do RA, but no free will, than they aren't sinning, but its no choice.... so sinning is not a choice.... not to an archon anyhow.
So why does the serpent tempt man to to RA, if there is nothing in it for the RA Being?
Having man watch RA Beings doing something totally different to love, is by definition causing these sinless innocent creatures to be wounded....am I right? Therefore the Designer who designs this function is wounding the creatures doing love, because they see Beings not doing love. Therefore GOD is wounding his creatures of love, with this abomination. It's a sin by GOD to create RA Beings doing RA, goes against the concept of love totally.
Something very wrong with your model and the programmed pathway of choice.
You cannot program a choice, if both pathways of choice are already running. Sin is a choice.
You have archons already doing the RA choice, and God doing the Tov choice, Creating man with no choice, because both choices are already running.
And for sinless innocent creatures to view RA, is wounding them. Violating their mind.
For example, some humans mock me because I would never enter an Adult Shop with them. I refuse. I also refuse to watch R rated movies. I also refuse to smoke and drink strong drinks.
Imagine innocent sinless creatures watching a RA Being slashing some creature to death with horror sounds screaming from it as it dies....But you have GOD created this for man to watch? It is by definition a wounding of the man....
A being who lies to another being with words, is a sin of murder. But because he has no free will, he doesn't know its wrong. Weird.
Why didn't the serpent rape the woman, slap her face and be brutal to her? Why the deception? Is not all these elements of RA available to it? Yet only lying and subtle deception we see.
Why is the RA made to mimic the TOV? The RA Being has to be making decisions, and making choices to do RA, implies a free will to choose a deeper or more deceptive RA, is it not?
Explore Dave, this aspect of choice....
The RA Being is making a choice to make RA more deceptive... more subtle...more crafty....it did not come with full blown RA all guns blazing...why is that? Because it chose not to...therefore has free will to choose...
And you say Eve had already RA in her? No she didn't.... a Choice to choose RA as opposed to choose Tov, yes, but until you choose, the RA doesn't exist. A sin doesn't exist, until you sin. A propensity to sin, doesn't become a habit of sinning, until you awaken the genes by choosing.
The coded pathway for RA was in her, in the universe even...but was waiting for choice to choose. This code is written in the DNA.... ready should the code be ever required.... no second Creator was required.... the code was already there....but NOT running....
Rob writes: "Much of your yester Tov and tester Ra, applies to AFTER sin came into the Father's world of love, ...You don't see this....
Dave writes: " After? – Seriously – please be serious Could Eve have chosen yester ra - if it did not exist with her Could Adam have chosen yester ra to join Eve in sin – if it did not exist within him.
The simple answer to this is NO.
In fact if the serpent did not exist, I doubt if the couple would have ever sinned. GOD engineered both pathways, yes. The Tov is for love. The RA is the opposite of love. Both pathways have to be fully encoded for a choice to exist.
The DNA was ready for either of both choices.... inside both couples... But GOD only awaken one pathway for mankind, they were born with one pathway open, the other was closed. They were born, sinless in love and loving GOD.
Rob writes:"This model implies some creature sinned long before man sinned. And thus GOD has to react to this sinning...
Dave writes:" Again you have the Creator playing defence to an aggressor god God is absolute – plays defence to no one What a ridicules idea But you would never diminish God
Rob replies: God is love. Now you say I make GOD like a human, well some aspects of are human like. Love. Love is relational. Love requires co-eternal divine Beings co-operating with each other. You don't have a family of members like that. You call this polytheism.
Does love (tov) have it's opposite? Yes its called (ra). Does GOD do Ra? no never. Love cannot demonstrate not love, and still call itself love. That makes no sense.
After Ra came into the world, (via sinning) what does love do? Starting doing some ra to bring back the RA creatures to tov again? This might be so? as you show me many texts where GOD seems to be doing RA, but its a difficult thing to ponder Dave.
Love has risk. The creatures may not choose to love you back.
What would you do if you created a child Dave, that refuses to love you back?
Suppose you have children like this, probably they will never speak or see you again. What does love do?
Again you have the Parent playing defence to an aggressor.... what else do you do? The child hates you...they have their reasons, but emotions are not real reliable for decisions are they?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 15, 2020 18:44:42 GMT -5
The story of the destruction of Jerusalem is a metaphor of the cities of the world destroyed during the second coming of Jesus, after the RA they do is fully reached. The destruction is a simile of how the earth was before it was created. Jer 4:23 Before Gen 1:3 Jer 4:24 Jer 4:25 There was no mortal man Jer 4:26 Cities – of whom – no mortal men – no earth to have mortal cities – were all those cities named Jersulam? Your Feel Good God of LOVE ONLY – had FIERCE ANGER Jer 4:27 choshek Jer 4:28 The earth will mourn – because the Beast and his archon are cast from heaven to earthYour asking me, does our universe come naturally with RA, before GOD makes Tov out of it? Since all things come from GOD, the simple answer for me is no. God only makes this Tov. If you accepted the Trinity you would see your question unnecessary 1st is God then The HS and Christ are a product of speaking the Word Everything else – follows after that
All of Jon 1:1-4 = Tov + Tov + Tov – ra came later I do not see GOD as a Being who makes order from disorder.So if the archon lead you astray – God does nothing? WRONG! God allows the ra to have its way with you – until you cannot take it anymore Is God doing the ra – no yetzer ra and the archon are doing fine all by themselves Maybe it is just yetzer ra – the archon don’t even have to help The POINT – my prodocial son – is repent and return home – order from disorder
--------- You have the HS creating the archons during the creation of man, hence BOTH RA and TOV during man, BEFORE they SINNED, hence it's not a choice to sin, you already have BEINGS sinning. You do not understand this. If mankind has both RA and TOV already running in a world, it's not a fair test. Yet the archons were already in the world, correct. Doing RA, helping Eve to also do RA. CorrectNotice my words: "You have the HS creating the archons during the creation of man, hence BOTH RA and TOV during man, BEFORE they SINNED, hence it's not a choice to sin, you already have BEINGS sinning. Correct – during the First Aion / AgeIf fact Dave is GOD created RA Beings programmed to do RA, but no free will, than they aren't sinning, but its no choice.... so sinning is not a choice.... not to an archon anyhow. Again – Scripture is for man – it is not a text book on the heaven or the being that live thereSo why does the serpent tempt man to to RA, if there is nothing in it for the RA Being? Why did satan test Job – because God asked him to If God asked you to lay down your life – would you argue with God? What if it mean your own destruction – and God asked it of you to help facilitate His Will
Having man watch RA Beings doing something totally different to love, is by definition causing these sinless innocent creatures to be wounded....am I right? Therefore the Designer who designs this function is wounding the creatures doing love, because they see Beings not doing love. Therefore GOD is wounding his creatures of love, with this abomination. It's a sin by GOD to create RA Beings doing RA, goes against the concept of love totally. Are you right? You claim God is a sinner – and you invoke the Feel Good Clause – God is Love God is also – jealous – angry – full of wrath – vengeful – and puts a lot of people to death Reality is bigger than just one church doctrine Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi LibraryAnd before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this worldSomething very wrong with your model and the programmed pathway of choice. You cannot program a choice, if both pathways of choice are already running. Sin is a choice.You can never program choice – Duh You can only program the options from which to choose
You have archons already doing the RA choice, and God doing the Tov choice, Creating man with no choice, because both choices are already running. Let’s see man is in a world with tov and ra – but has no choice I think this is the whole point of being a man – the creature that can chooseAnd for sinless innocent creatures to view RA, is wounding them. Violating their mind. Sounds like modern mediaWhy didn't the serpent rape the woman, slap her face and be brutal to her? Why the deception? Is not all these elements of RA available to it? Yet only lying and subtle deception we see. gnosis - if the sevil came out today and said follow me - the choice would be obvious - gnosisWhy is the RA made to mimic the TOV? The RA Being has to be making decisions, and making choices to do RA, implies a free will to choose a deeper or more deceptive RA, is it not? gnosis- if the sevil came out today and said follow me - the choice would be obvious - gnosisExplore Dave, this aspect of choice.... The RA Being is making a choice to make RA more deceptive... more subtle...more crafty....it did not come with full blown RA all guns blazing...why is that? Because it chose not to...therefore has free will to choose... gnosis - if the sevil came out today and said follow me - the choice would be obvious - gnosisAnd you say Eve had already RA in her? No she didn't.... a Choice to choose RA as opposed to choose Tov, yes, I(Wiki) n Judaism, yetzer hara (Hebrew: יֵצֶר הַרַע) is the congenital inclination to do ra, by violating the will of God.
In traditional Judaism, the yetzer hara is not a demonic force, but rather man's misuse of things the physical body needs to survive. Thus, the need for food becomes gluttony due to the yetzer hara. The need for procreation becomes sexual abuse, and so on.
www.britannica.com/topic/yetzer-ha-tov Talmudic doctrine of man In Talmud and Midrash: Doctrine of man …impulse, personified by two angels, yetzer ha-ṭov (the good inclination) and yetzer ha-raʿ (the evil inclination), which enter each man after birth. It is the duty of man to overcome his evil inclination, and it is for this that he is rewarded. Moreover, since there is corporate responsibility, not only…The coded pathway for RA was in her, (yetzer ra – animal instinct) This code is written in the DNA.... ready should the code be ever required.... YES! – animal DNA (Mind/Body) yetzer ra was there ... the code was already there....but NOT running.... If it was not running then Eve could not have chosen itGOD engineered both pathways, yes. The Tov is for love. The RA is the opposite of love. Both pathways have to be fully encoded for a choice to exist. The DNA was ready for either of both choices.... inside both couples... YES! – just as I sayAfter Ra came into the world, (via sinning) what does love do? Starting doing some ra to bring back the RA creatures to tov again? This might be so? as you show me many texts where GOD seems to be doing RA, but its a difficult thing to ponder Dave. God uses the ra to facilitate His WillWhat would you do if you created a child Dave, that refuses to love you back? Suppose you have children like this, probably they will never speak or see you again. What does love do? Again you have the Parent playing defence to an aggressor.... what else do you do? The child hates you...they have their reasons, but emotions are not real reliable for decisions are they? I have an answer for this that I hope I never have to implement It is called – TOUGHT LOVE and you kick their ass out into the streetMy sister married a jerked-over Amish man His family was 100% Amish until he was 13 yrs old – then his dad left the church All of his relation is Amish – and they still shun They let their kids – room-scrava (screw around) I can tell you stories about Amish girls coming to my house to change into blue genes The Amish guys could always afford to party hardy – and we did There point as a culture = get secular world out of your system before you join the church After you join – the church – the same conduct will get you excommunicated and shuned This is called TOUGHT LOVE – because we all have to learn our own lessons This is one thing Rich and really agree upon – we are all called differently Gnostic scripture says – some have particular lessons to learn – Some learn their lesson from books – some from parents – but most have to learn it the hard way Which makes the story of the Prodicial Son so much more relevant than just a simple storySome are called to heal – some to listen – some to teach If we are the body – then there are all types – hands – feet – eyes – hearts – and mouths
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 14:21:54 GMT -5
Dave writes: "If God asked you to lay down your life – would you argue with God? What if it mean your own destruction – and God asked it of you to help facilitate His Will
God is totally reliable , tests man obedience to law, but GOD cannot go outside Hs own laws. Eze 4:12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. 13 And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them. 14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth. 15 Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.
This passage tells us that GOD does not go outside his own laws, even though he may test man to do so.
Dave writes: "Why did satan test Job – because God asked him to
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
God does not ask Satan to test Job, but to consider how GOD has saved Job, how much Job loves GOD.
Why would GOD ask Satan have you considered this human who loves me? Is this not evidence of a conflict going on between two parties?
Dave writes: "Are you right? You claim God is a sinner – and you invoke the Feel Good Clause – God is Love God is also – jealous – angry – full of wrath – vengeful – and puts a lot of people to death Reality is bigger than just one church doctrine
You claim that God is a sinner, because you claim GOD is jealous, angry, full of wrath, and puts a lot of people to death.
I do not claim any of this... GOD is love...and has never wounded anybody. Nor ever violated his own laws.
What does law say:
Ex 21:22 ¶ If men hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
This means any mischief on children born, the penalty is eternal death. Since humans are alive when we shouldn't be alive, implies GOD is kind, gracious and allowing all humans a second chance of living, despite this law. The law does not state when the final penalty is applied. Only that it is applied.
Notice GOD is a a burning, love burns hate to death. Do you really think a wicked person would enjoy living among only humans of Tov, who love the human of RA, that the human could or would convince the other humans of Tov to do Ra, once all things are restored? The wicked person would hate being there...eternal death would be a sweet release from the burning of his soul. Scripture says Ra will never appear a second time. Gone forever.
Dave quotes: "Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi Library And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world
Rob replies" Sorry Dave I dodn't see some of your material as inspired at all. Scripture tells me a different reason why sin, and therefore RA, came into our unverse... through an angel who sinned.
Dave writes: "You can never program choice – Duh You can only program the options from which to choose
Correct. Could the serpent choose to be more or less RA with it's dealings with Eve?
Therefore the serpent could choose carefully it's words. This implies free will to choose. Your archons are not robots programmed by GOD to do ra and sin without free will.
They are free will fallen angels choosing to do ra and sin because they love doing these things. They chose to make humans sin and do ra, so their own kingdom would be fixed into eternity. Thus God could not destroy it.
They were hoping by getting sinning immortalized they might stop the laws of eternal death from operating.
The death of Jesus broke this claim, so their impending fate of eternal death is sealed with certainity.
Dave writes: "gnosis - if the evil came out today and said follow me - the choice would be obvious
Correct. But you did not acknowledge an archon choosing to be crafty and sneaky and deceiving, implies free will to choose these things, does it not?
You quote your answer twice, without acknowledging my point...the archons have free will. All angels do.
Some angels are sinning angels, and love only sinning and ra. The do this, because they hate GOD....God is a source of stable immortal rules, but these angel hate rules. Many people I know also do not like laws, yet they know some laws are nice, they follow them grudgingly.
Dave quotes" In traditional Judaism, the yetzer hara is not a demonic force, but rather man's misuse of things the physical body needs to survive. Thus, the need for food becomes gluttony due to the yetzer hara. The need for procreation becomes sexual abuse, and so on.
Rob replies: " The beastly carnal nature does these things because the encoded DNA is faulty and the ruler over them empowers this faulty DNA. Can those who love RA support a ruler of RA? is there Scripture for this idea?
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
The devil support . Or the devils have faith.
What is faith? a creature who supports another creature so collective power runs.
We call this peer group pressure. In a crowd its easier doing sin and ra.
Remove the ruler of RA, dismiss the crowd of RA, and the invidual doers of RA fail in doing RA. Is there in Scripture a "prince of this world" who does RA?
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Is there any Biblical evidence of Satan changing man's DNA to suit a being becoming more RA like?
Job 15:35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit. (KJV) Here aven can be born.
Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.
Here aven can be born.
Thus propensities are DNA triats that are born.
Ps 36:4 He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.
Epigenetics changes your DNA wich is changed by you making decisions of RA.
Where did mischief come from?
You say GOD created it in some Ra Beings on purpose. I say it came from a angel who sinned.
Rob writes: "the code was already there....but NOT running.... Dave writes:If it was not running then Eve could not have chosen it
You don't understand programming? When you make an IF CONDITION statement, the pathway of code does not RUN until the IF CONDITION statement is executed. And it the IF CONDITION statement is never executed, the other encoded code never runs.
Rob writes:" The DNA was ready for either of both choices.... inside both couples... Dave writes:" YES! – just as I say
No, you didnt say that. You said the RA code was already running in Eve. I am saying the RA code did not run, until Eve chose to do sinning.
Dave writes: "I have an answer for this that I hope I never have to implement It is called – TOUGH LOVE and you kick their ass out into the street
God's way is different.... He sends his Son to rescue us in our sinning with Satan, and pay the law penalty for sin, which is eternal death.
Dave writes: "This is called TOUGH LOVE – because we all have to learn our own lessons
So raping women, killing people, torturing people to death for fun, get all this RA out of you system so you come to church faithfully now forever doing tov? That's ridiculous? Does it really work?
Imagine the tortured soul forever stained with the one you killed... the one you raped, the one you wounded with words.... you don't need to do RA so you never do RA again.... Love kills RA, learn to experience full on Tov, from GOD, the love we don't know...
Dave writes:" Which makes the story of the Prodicial Son so much more relevant than just a simple story
Rob replies. Perhaps. There is a song" I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me... I don't think we understand Jesus dying on the cross, the eternal sarifice for our eternal death, an exchange of bodies.
Learn what love is, and you never do RA....
doing RA does not stop you doing RA... only love does.
Like the song says, we don't understand love at all.
Will answer your other posts later.... how to work now.... cheers ... have a good day Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 16, 2020 23:31:28 GMT -5
Dave writes: "If God asked you to lay down your life – would you argue with God? What if it mean your own destruction – and God asked it of you to help facilitate His Will
Rob answers: God is totally reliable, tests man obedience to law, but GOD cannot go outside Hs own laws. Eze 4:12 This passage tells us that GOD does not go outside his own laws, even though he may test man to do so.
So your answer is – if God asked you to lay your life down for your fellow man – you would argue the law with God
Yet – Jesus Christ laid his life down for you In fact – all the disciples laid their lives down for you
Dave writes: "Why did satan test Job – because God asked him to Job 1:8 God does not ask Satan to test Job, but to consider how GOD has saved Job, how much Job loves GOD.
Ok – I change my answer – God told him to do it Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!”
You claim that God is a sinner (I do not), because you claim GOD is jealous, angry, full of wrath, and puts a lot of people to death. I do not claim any of this... GOD is love...and has never wounded anybody. Nor ever violated his own laws.
God is a jealous God – I have – 113 total verses Deu 4:24 (TLV) For Adonai your God is a consuming fire—a jealous God. Exo 34:14 (TLV) For you are to bow down to no other god, because Adonai is jealous for His Name—He is a jealous God. Deu 6:15 (TLV) for Adonai your God in the midst of you is a jealous God. Otherwise the anger of Adonai your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you from the face of the earth. Nah 1:2 A jealous and avenging God is Adonai. Yes, Adonai is the avenger and master of wrath. Adonai is avenger to His adversaries, Yes, a keeper of wrath for His foes.
God gets angry – 100+ verses Deu 9:8 (TLV) At Horeb you provoked Adonai to wrath, and Adonai was angry with you—enough to destroy you. Exo 32:10 (TLV) Now therefore, leave Me alone, so My wrath may burn hot against them, and so I may consume them—and make from you a great nation!” Job 4:9 (TLV) By the breath of God they perish; by the blast of His anger they vanish. Eze 7:8 Now, soon, I am about to pour out My fury on you. I will exhaust My anger on you. I will judge you according to your ways. I will bring all your abominations on you.
GOD is love...and has never wounded anybody Num 16:35 (TLV) Fire also came out from Adonai and consumed the 250 men offering the incense. Gen 18 – Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 6-8 – the Flood of Noah Exo 12:23 Adonai will pass through to strike down the Egyptians,
Sorry Robert – God is Love – is only one facet of God’s character Christians say 10 – Jews say 10
What does law say: Ex 21:22 ¶ If men hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
This is a Mosanic Law about causing a woman to have a miscarriage
Rob replies" Sorry Dave I dodn't see some of your material as inspired at all. Scripture tells me a different reason why sin, and therefore RA, came into our unverse... through an angel who sinned. And by definition this makes you 100% Catholic – this is exactly what they preach Elevate their satan and diminish God
Dave writes: "You can never program choice – Duh You can only program the options from which to choose Correct. Could the serpent choose to be more or less RA with it's dealings with Eve? Here you go again – we were discussing Adam and Eve Both choices had to be available to them – or there is no choice to make
Therefore the serpent could choose carefully it's words. This implies free will to choose. Your archons are not robots programmed by GOD to do ra and sin without free will. BOOM! – Immediately you make it apply to the angels in heaven Sorry Robert – that = mythology We have no knowledge that angels have yetzer tov or ra We have no knowledge of angels being born as mortal babies – suckling their mortal mothers We have no information – to JUMP to you conclusion Angels must act like man = mythology
They are free will fallen angels choosing to do ra and sin because they love doing these things. They chose to make humans sin and do ra, so their own kingdom would be fixed into eternity. Thus God could not destroy it.
See – and it leads you right back to your main theology – satan rules God’s Will
Mat 8:29 And they screamed, “What’s between You and us, Ben-Elohim? Have You come here to torment us, before the appointed time?”
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night—to the ages of the ages.
They were hoping by getting sinning immortalized they might stop the laws of eternal death from operating.
Sorry Robert – the archon know their fate The idea that satan would / could / might / wants to overthrow God is Catholic
Dave writes: "gnosis - if the evil came out today and said follow me - the choice would be obvious Correct. But you did not acknowledge an archon choosing to be crafty and sneaky and deceiving, implies free will to choose these things, does it not?
Again – Biblical Free Will has everything to do with MAN – choosing between Seeking God with all his heart, mind, and soul
Again – you force angelic beings of acting just like man Being crafty and sneaky and deceptive is rampart throughout the animal kingdom Being crafty, sneaky, and deceptive is a product of animal instinct If my Gold Fish finds its way out of a maze – or avoids being eaten by a predator – does this mean the Gold Fish also has the Free Will to Seek God or not?
You quote your answer twice, without acknowledging my point...the archons have free will. All angels do. Absolutely disagree – the way you mean it Wild Horses, cows, pigs, chickens, ducks all have the ability to choose hay or oats, turn left or right, take a nap or stay up all night – this they can choose It has nothing to do with the Free Will choice to seek God or not Tigers, lions, rats, moles, mosquitoes, ants all do what they do It has nothing to do with the Free Will choice to seek God or not
Angels do what they do Archon do what they do No changing species allowed -
Some angels are sinning angels, and love only sinning and ra. How do you know what they love? The do this, because they hate GOD.... Let's revisit the 49 + 23 verses - satan does not oppose God
Try again – you have presented a circular argument You say yetzer ra did not exist within her until Eve chose it I say – if she didn’t possess yetzer ra – she NEVER COULD HAVE CHOOSEN IT It is a circular argument – the chicken laid the egg, but the chicken came from the egg
You say GOD created it in some Ra Beings on purpose. I say it came from a angel who sinned. Absolutely Correct – with correction I say The left hand of God – created the First Archon – and God allowed it to happen, by the Will of the Father to it all happen – God’s Will – God’s creation – God’s plan You have another god - in a two god system
Dave writes: "I have an answer for this that I hope I never have to implement It is called – TOUGH LOVE and you kick their ass out into the street
Dave writes: "This is called TOUGH LOVE – because we all have to learn our own lessons Dave writes:" Which makes the story of the Prodicial Son so much more relevant than just a simple story
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 16:57:28 GMT -5
Dave you change the definition of free will:
Dave writes: "Again – Biblical Free Will has everything to do with MAN – choosing between Seeking God with all his heart, mind, and soul
Again – you force angelic beings of acting just like man Being crafty and sneaky and deceptive is rampart throughout the animal kingdom Being crafty, sneaky, and deceptive is a product of animal instinct If my Gold Fish finds its way out of a maze – or avoids being eaten by a predator – does this mean the Gold Fish also has the Free Will to Seek God or not?
Wild Horses, cows, pigs, chickens, ducks all have the ability to choose hay or oats, turn left or right, take a nap or stay up all night – this they can choose It has nothing to do with the Free Will choice to seek God or not Tigers, lions, rats, moles, mosquitoes, ants all do what they do It has nothing to do with the Free Will choice to seek God or not
Your saying angels and archons do not choose GOD because they have no free will to choose God. Why would God create mere robots?
Intelligence to choose, make changes from gathered input, reason, are all signs of a brain operating in creatures. Now you add to this, only man can "choose his Saviour", and this is termed "Free will". So if man doesn't choose GOD, than this is also using free will? correct? and we would term this a "sin"?
So your saying animals apart from man, cannot sin or do ra because they have no free will?
I would agree only the "spirit of man" goes upward on death, thus only man is saved by GOD if the free will chooses GOD. But you have made a very narrow meaning for free will.
You write in your post that archons are intentionally designed by God's left hand to do sin, hate and ra. And that do this willingly, knowing that their end is also predetermined. Since they have no free will to choose GOD, they do not mind dying the eternal death. Wow... what a creature. Designed to make men kill, murder and rape...a design feature created by GOD....
And you support this idea by saying GOD also kills man, also is jealous and angry of man, and you say Christians do not explore other character traits of GOD, God is not only love. There are 9 other traits.
Dave writes: "Try again – you have presented a circular argument You say yetzer ra did not exist within her until Eve chose it I say – if she didn’t possess yetzer ra – she NEVER COULD HAVE CHOOSEN IT
You do not understand programming.
If I write a DNA code for all aspects of living, including Tov emptions and Ra emotions, all the code must exist in the DNA before the creature is made.
Than you impose "Free will as a choosing God function" but I would say the creature has to be choosing GOD all the time, in order to be allowed to live, so free will must be more than what you narrow definition implies.
No creatures can live unless empowered by God and thus be connected to God. So the man, who is given a choice to IRQ ( Interrupt Request Question ) is a process where (your correct only humans have IRQ) to STOP their connection to God.
When you press a function key on your computer you cause other programmes running to stop working to process the IRQ. Before this, the RA process was NOT running.
Mankind does not cause the RA process to run until the IRQ asks the process to run, until the man chooses the IRQ request.
Now if you already running fully every day with GOD, in the powers of GOD, totally joyful, why would you do IRQ and stop God running in you? This could only happen if another Being tests you to do this...
The difference between us Dave is you have archons already running a RA process, without free will, created intentionally by God, before the humans were created, so the idea of RA was intentionally designed and planned by GOD.
You add to this idea by saying God does RA, God kills people, God get jealous and God gets angry.
BUT I am saying God never creates RA, never kills people, never gets jealous and never gets angry, but these statements need some deeper clarification.
God allows RA to be observed, so when you walk away from GOD, you get RA. God can even use RA to make TOV come from it, but GOD never does RA personally.
God's grace allows people to live, even though law says they must die, so each living people is on probation, to see if they accept the Son of Living, who empowers living in them, but they must choose this gift. God removes his grace from some earlier than others for complex reasons. One reason is the "no wounding" rule of the moral code. To allow some to continue doing RA may wound others a chance of salvation, so we have an enormous judgement to look over every single case and decision made by GOD.
The texts of GOD is jealous should read GOD is zealous. Jealous is a sin of envy, zealous is passion of desire. One leads to sin, the other does not.
God flares at the nose, is not a sin. Getting angry is not a sin unless you wound somebody with your emotions.
Dave writes :"This is a Mosaic Law about causing a woman to have a miscarriage
Rob replies: "
Ex 21:1 ¶ Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
A judgement is HOW you INTERPRET the TEN WORDS.
In any court room, previous cases are used for determining future cases against law.
This is not Mosaic law, but Jesus making detailed accounts of how to interrupt the ten words of the moral code.
Code number 6 says "no wounding".
You can wound somebody with words, with deeds, with violence, by causing miscarriages, etc, etc.
Since GOD wrote moral law with his finger, these laws must apply to all creation, to angels, to archons and to God Himself.
Yet you have GOD doing wounding, by intentionally creating archons that wound.
So God does not follow His own laws? according to you?
God does not wound, he has a department for that? Is this passing the buck?
Dave writes: "See – and it leads you right back to your main theology – satan rules God’s Will
Rob replies: Does not Jesus I have come to judge the "prince of the world"?
What is a prince? A ruler who rules.... your words...
"it leads you right back to your main theology – a Ruler rules God’s Will"
Dave writes:"Ok – I change my answer – God told him to do it Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!”
Rob replies: " You are twisting the passage"
Is the reason why Satan walks up and down the earth, is because He is a Ruler and this is His kingdom? Yes or no?
Rulers come to meetings with GOD.
GOD asks Satan, the Ruler, have you considered Job, he is perfect, He no longer follows you as a Ruler, He follows Me as a Ruler.
Spite, the prince says, let me do wounding to him, and he will curse you and follow me once more.
Very well the other Ruler says, but don't take my powers of living in Him from me. After all He chooses Me, not you.
Explore the Scripture evidence for "ruler" Dave... the "prince of the world" is really the "ruler of the world".
Two beings on a pole, were two rulers on a pole, the King of the world (Jesus) and the King of the world (Satan).
We are not fornicators they said, not like you, sneer, snigger.
Well my Father and I are one. My Y DNA comes from my Father in heaven. There was no fornication. Your DNA comes from the Devil. He was a wounding agent from the beginning of Creation. Ye are of your father of lies.
If you consider Jesus words "ruler of this world" you would understand why there was a war in heaven, kings fight over their kingdoms.
Once Satan got mankind to sin, who is their Strong Authority, in this model of rulers? Would not Satan change the DNA code a little here and there, delete a letter, add a letter. There were 24 chromosomes originally, now there are 23.
One set is joined.
Why do you think "Evolution" exists, a satanic invention, make changes, and you have a second creation.... no need for a second Creator, as you imply. How much was changed we do not know... God is always in control, after all GOD was the rightful Ruler of this creation.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 18, 2020 0:42:30 GMT -5
Dave you change the definition of free will:
Dave writes: "Again – Biblical Free Will has everything to do with MAN – choosing between Seeking God with all his heart, mind, and soul
(Wiki) #1 Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. No one forces you to choice – each choice is your own – on your own
(Wii) #2 Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen Moral responsibility – guilt or praise Seek God with all your heart, Mind, and soul – or not Any choice other than seeking God – ‘misses’ – and is in the direction of dysfunction
Your saying angels and archons do not choose GOD because they have no free will to choose God. Why would God create mere robots? I’m saying angels praise – and do whatever else they do I’m saying archon do whatever they do – test and tempt and whatever else they do Man is special – The Rabbis say, man = the creature that chooses
Intelligence to choose, make changes from gathered input, reason, are all signs of a brain operating in creatures. (YES) Now you add to this, only man can "choose his Saviour", and this is termed "Free will". So if man doesn't choose GOD, than this is also using free will? correct? and we would term this a "sin"?
Intelligence to choose, make changes from gathered input, reason, are all signs – YES! Rom 1:20 Psa 19:1
Take two men out into the wilderness alone Carnal/ animal man works hard all his days until he dies – VAIN
One carnal / animal man comes to recognize God in creation – Abraham One carnal / animal man comes into communion / communication / Born Again – Abraham Now spiritual man Abraham has a “Moral Responsibility” to share his revelation with all the other carnal / animal men so they also can become spiritual men – in communion – born again This is our mission - to remember and share / teach other souljourners - help them to also remember
So your saying animals apart from man, cannot sin or do ra because they have no free will? Animals are (Mind/Body) – driven by instinct – not a moral code of ethics Ants just do what they do
I would agree only the "spirit of man" goes upward on death, thus only man is saved by GOD if the free will chooses GOD. But you have made a very narrow meaning for free will.
Free Will is God’s Gift to man – choose God – or not Man is the creature that chooses
You write in your post that archons are intentionally designed by God's left hand to do sin, hate and ra. To do sin – hate – ra Hmmmmmm- very catholic evil The Archon promote entropy – throughout creation A mud slide – slides due to the laws of mechanics and entropy A mud slides – slides and kills 15,000 forms of wild life (living creatures – (Mind/Bodies)) – no one cares A mud slides – slides and kills 25 people in a village = satan at foot – catholic evil – boo! (Mythology) Yes the archon promote entropy Yes the archon promote the mud slide Do the archon care if there is a village below – or not?
The archon are under God’s control Some have specific assignments – Gen 3 Serpent – Gen 6 Nephilim - 1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul,
And that do this willingly, knowing that their end is also predetermined. Since they have no free will to choose GOD, they do not mind dying the eternal death. Wow... what a creature.
Ants, ameba, angels, and archon do what they to do – they all serve a function So, Mr Catholic – why doesn’t Rev 20 say satan and 1/3rd of all the angels are cast into the Lake of Fire Do all the archon die an eternal death – I do not know – scripture does not say
Wow... what a creature. Designed to make men kill, murder and rape...a design feature created by GOD.... Make men kill murder, and rape – how very catholic evil The archon would be just as happy if you were a football fan and had no time for God The archon would be just as happy if you were a Buddhist pacifist
And you support this idea by saying GOD also kills man, God has cause the death of an entire planet worth of man and living creatures God cause the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah Just how much scripture must you deny to maintain your theology
also is jealous What do you do with the 113 scriptures that says God is a Jealous God? Just how much scripture must you deny to maintain your theology Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Just how much scripture must you deny to maintain your theology
and you say Christians do not explore other character traits of GOD, God is not only love. There are 9 other traits. YES - Feel Good Christianity preaches God is Love only therefore everything other than love must be from a second provoder - satan
Dave writes: "Try again – you have presented a circular argument You say yetzer ra did not exist within her until Eve chose it I say – if she didn’t possess yetzer ra – she NEVER COULD HAVE CHOOSEN IT
If I write a DNA code for all aspects of living, including Tov emptions and Ra emotions, all the code must exist in the DNA before the creature is made. Correct – both are present at the time Eve was created - Correct Both tetzer tov and yetzer ra had to be present within Eve - or there was no choice
Than you impose "Free will as a choosing God function" but I would say the creature has to be choosing GOD all the time, in order to be allowed to live, OK Mr Catholic – why doesn’t your satan and 1/3rd of all the angels just die According to you – they do not choose God – they hate God
No creatures can live unless empowered by God and thus be connected to God. So – your satan is connected to God – empowered by God - but hates and opposes God?
The difference between us Dave is you have archons already running a RA process, without free will, created intentionally by God, before the humans were created, so the idea of RA was intentionally designed and planned by GOD.
POINT Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (ra): I the LORD do all these things.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities (G746), or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities (G746), against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
G746 - ἀρχή - archē - ARCHON
o the idea of RA was intentionally designed and planned by GOD. – Correct
Col 1:16 God made the archon for HIM + Eph 6:12 the archon serve to fulfill Gen 3:15 The Gnostic Contest
You add to this idea by saying God does RA, God kills people, God get jealous and God gets angry. BUT I am saying God never creates RA, never kills people, never gets jealous and never gets angry, but these statements need some deeper clarification.
So – you need to justify how much scripture? Just how much scripture must you deny to maintain your theology
God does not wound, he has a department for that? Is this passing the buck? Now you are mixing in James 1:13 God tempts no man – I say he has a department for that But – God can wound anyone he wants God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, - AND STOP MAN – make man unable to work together for common cause
Dave writes:"Ok – I change my answer – God told him to do it Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!”
Rob replies: " You are twisting the passage" God doesn’t turn Job over to satan?
Once Satan got mankind to sin, who is their Strong Authority, in this model of rulers? After Eve choose poorly You say a lot of things happened
The First Book of Adam and Eve - CHAP. VIII.
8:1 THEN Adam wept and said, "O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us."
8:2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish."
8:3 When Adam and Eve had heard these words from God, they went their way; praising and worshipping Him with a sorrowful heart.
8:4 And God ceased to commune with them.
Eve was not alone in the garden with the serpent She could see the angels in the heavens other MidRash scrip says they could see the music that the angels sang in the heavens
Shakesphere – the world is but a stage – and all the heavens are the audience
Eve choose poorly in the full view of all creation
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 4:01:54 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
You write well. I don't have anything further to say right now.
You replies are kind and the Scripture you supply are confronting.
I will spend some time with GOD and get back to you later.
Richard says I am debating for debating sake and wasting your time. I hope not. I don't debate other topics. I consider you a friend, and want to save you, as surely you want to save me, indeed Jesus wants to save us both.
I get your yester tov and yester ra struggle. You have been great for discussing matters, and it was not a waste of time at all. I learnt a lot.
May God bless you. I hope to see you one day in heaven, we can continue to discuss and ponder the things we both enjoy. Shalom
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