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Post by Dave on Jun 28, 2020 7:24:35 GMT -5
Thanks for this D – Soul Sleep, I had forgotten the term Sadly, many fear their souls will have to wait indefinitely for heaven. "Soul sleep"—the belief that the soul rests after death in an unconscious state, or ceases to exist, until the final resurrection—finds its roots in the common "sleeping" metaphor for bodily death. Although this metaphor appears in Scripture, a thorough study shows that the metaphor of sleep refers only to the earthly body's inanimate state after death, not to the soul. A metaphor that becomes doctrine for some Metaphors are never more valid than the thing they are trying to illuminate
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 16:14:29 GMT -5
So this metaphor is not real, "soul sleep" is not real.
Just as "cherub chata" is a metaphor too, and not real too?
Since half of the Bible is poetry, full of similes and metaphors, these verses are not real either?
Just what is poetry, and how does it work? I used to write poetry as a 16 year old kid, are you all trying to tell, that my poems are not real?
Here is one of 14 poems called Creation Poems, written aged 16 or so, a long time ago, lets look at the metaphors and similes in it:
Day One
Mighty light in labour,
Dawns upon the earth,
Slowly she awakens,
Creation into renewed birth.
One humble insect,
On wing toiling long,
Diligently she gathers,
Her portion of nature's fuel,
Among coloured rainbows,
She sings buzzing song,
Obediently her faithful work,
Reflects His patterned rule.
No fruits of her work,
Are easy to see,
Let us question our role,
Of grace from Thee.
One humble servant,
Who sings Scripture's Word
Diligently he gathers,
His manna of Holy Fuel,
Faith outward active,
For he surrendered heard,
Responds without a question,
To our blessed Saviour's Rule.
For faith is nothing
Anyone can see,
We should be a worker,
In our Lord's mercy
1. Why "labour" and who's she? with "renewed birth" Obviously the Holy Spirit, so is this real or a metaphor, or just a non-real allusion.
2. "Among coloured rainbows" is a poetry term for flowers? so is this real or a metaphor, or just a non-real allusion?
3. the middle couplet joins the natural to the man, so what is the bee and her faith about, compared to the man and his faith in GOD, so this natural object lesson is just an illusion or a metaphor we can ignore from Scripture?
4. "His manna of Holy Fuel" is manna a simile of the Holy Scripture's word? According to this 16 year old writer, yes. But you say, its a metaphor, an illusion, not really there in Scripture?
So let's try another Creation Poem about death now:
Day One
O strange night,
That you may be;
Ye have no control,
Over me.
See the rabbit here,
Her young in a furrow;
The dingo pack digging down,
To take the life;
But life feeds the jaws,
Of death without sorrow;
As she dies to keep her young,
From the ivory knife.
A rabbit dies willing,
To free her young;
Without any thought or care,
To how life is hung;
And what of Man? Are we
Scared of this quick death?
Fate, chance or accident,
May take you any time;
But if you worry, much
Sooner goes your breath,
For death is a slave,
To your rags of time.
Death is a sleep,
Where God sends you;
The end of life,
The beginning too.
5. Why does the author parallel night or darkness to death? Is this a poetry metaphor also not real, not in the Scriptures?
6. But if you worry, much
Sooner goes your breath,
Is not living about breath, and death about not breathing, the powers of GOD, who alone is living.
7. Death is a sleep,
Where God sends you;
The end of life,
The beginning too.
Obviously this 16yr old author is wrong, death is not a sleep, where GOD sends you. We do not emerge from the void of darkness into the light, nor do we go back there when GOD's presence is absent?
So the metaphor of creating earth is wrong too?
Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
This is not true either? Are we from earth, are we not first void, without form until the presence of GOD comes over the earth?
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Waters is a symbol of people, ie a metaphor of where humans come from. The HS of GOD moved over the earth, breathing in us the "breath of GOD".
This creation is told again in another metaphor, the valley of dry bones.
So if "soul sleep" is a metaphor....
SO tell me, are metaphors real? or imaginary?
Do metaphors represent something else that is real?
Why do we have to make poetry so complicated?
To me, poetry are pictures that show us pictures of something else. Both pictures are real, but its a comparison. A simile. Showing us the real, in a way we can understand.
Scripture compares death to darkness, and a sleep, also of darkness.
Show me the Scriptures where the "soul" is "eternal" and continues "talking with GOD in heaven" say?
The poetry prayer of 107 speaks about "soul" "Death" and "Evil", but the prayer does not speak of the "soul" as "eternal" or "Taking in heaven".
Pr 19:15 ¶ Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger. 16 ¶ He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.
If the soul is eternal, why does the soul have to follow commandments, lest the soul dies?
Dave says only man received this "breath of life", other animal nephesh did not.
Gen 2:7
the breath <n@shamah> of life <chay>
All animals that breath use this Hebrew word n@shamah
So I cannot see your value of adding more to these words...
Some verses use both the breath <n@shamah> <ruwach> of life <chay>
So I suppose you say the body dies, but the soul lives on?
Where is this idea in Scripture?
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
What words are here "ruwach" the HS.
Also "chayah" the word meaning "living" also used to mean quicken or eternal life.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Again same words, no "nephesh" mentioned here.
So this is a metaphor too?
Lu 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
This poetry picture is about coveting, something Jews did... they did not share blessings with others...
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Is this verse which Jesus spoke, a truth found in Scripture, or a falsehood these coveting man believed in? How do we know which verses are what they are? In other words where does Scripture tell us how to study Scripture?
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
SO Jesus is speaking a metaphor here, not real, death is not a sleep?
Again, how do we study Scripture? What does Scripture say?
Joh 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
What question would Jews ask Lazurus? Did you remember anything when you died? He said nothing? Why is not anything written in the Scriptures if the soul goes elsewhere? Nothing written... nothing happens...
Now write a detailed account using Scripture that speaks of the soul talking in heaven after death?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 28, 2020 19:31:26 GMT -5
So this metaphor is not real, "soul sleep" is not real. It is a real metaphor about mortal death of (Mind/Body)
Just as "cherub chata" is a metaphor too, and not real too? It is a real metaphor about men getting too big for it britches OR - if you must - the Chief Archon - who woke up alone and mistakenly said - He is first there is no other - which is consistant with the bulk of scripture But it is not about angels having the free will to oppose God - which is in conflict will all scripture
Since half of the Bible is poetry, full of similes and metaphors, these verses are not real either? They are real poetry and metaphors and all of scripture is real Most scholars come to see over time that there is layer upon layer of meaning within scripture Chuck Missler says Jesus Christ can be seen in every scripture
Your argument so far = only the metaphor is valid and you pick individual words to argue over
I used to write poetry as a 16 year old kid, are you all trying to tell, that my poems are not real? Who says you poems are not real poems? Are you suggesting that your poems supersede scripture?
Her portion of nature's fuel, - nice line
Is not living about breath, and death about not breathing, the powers of GOD, who alone is living. Are speaking of your soul - your mortal life - or are you saying that God is the only living form in the entire universe?
Do metaphors represent something else that is real? Why do we have to make poetry so complicated? Because you do not listen to the poetry - you argue over word choices and miss the point
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me will not hunger, So Jesus is a literal food - is it unleven bread? and we must eat it - I mean eat Him Instead of ginger bread - we are to make Jesus bread and eat it
AND I LOVE THIS ONE THE MOST Jesus heals a diseased infirmed man and says to him Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus … said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. So the church preached for centuries that disease was a result of sin If you are sick - it is because of something you did
Pr 19:15 ¶ Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger. 16 ¶ He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die. Our Jewish mission is to remember and then share the Gospel Slouthfulness and an idle are not seeking the Kingdom of God - not even trying to remember
If the soul is eternal, why does the soul have to follow commandments, lest the soul dies? As you say - because of the sin of one guy - we have entered the contest and the Torah is for this world
Dave says only man received this "breath of life", other animal nephesh did not. Gen 2:7 All animals that breath use this Hebrew word n@shamah So I cannot see your value of adding more to these words... Some verses use both the breath <n@shamah> <ruwach> of life <chay>
Are you telling me that there is Zero difference between you and a goldfish at a pet store? Man is just animal - there is nothing spiritual about man
So I suppose you say the body dies, but the soul lives on? Where is this idea in Scripture?
Excuse me - do you not understand the implications of ‘eternal life’? Or shall I quote more Enoch - How about the Books of Creation or Jashar
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
What words are here "ruwach" the HS. So your man is just an animal carrying around the HS Eve was just the HS than sinned
Ruwach means spirit - you force it to mean only the HS Satan - means accuser - you force it to mean only God's personal opposer It is a word trap
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Again same words, no "nephesh" mentioned here. So this is a metaphor too?
I have looked at this question yours - and I really do not know how to answer There is no mention of feet either - so these must be footless soldiers - is this your logic?
Lu 16:19 ¶ This poetry picture is about coveting, something Jews did... they did not share blessings with others... You are anti-semetic / racest All rich men don't behave the same - only Jews In you study of Hebrew words - you should really spend some time on the word Quorbats
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Is this verse which Jesus spoke, a truth found in Scripture, or a falsehood these coveting man believed in? How do we know which verses are what they are? In other words where does Scripture tell us how to study Scripture?
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Neither man is sleeping in the afterlife However - their mortal bodies are both dead in the ground - this is the metaphor
Joh 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
What question would Jews ask Lazurus? Did you remember anything when you died? He said nothing? Why is not anything written in the Scriptures if the soul goes elsewhere? Nothing written... nothing happens...
Pope Urban also said - the moons of Jupiter must be within Galego’s telescope because they are not written in scripture
Now write a detailed account using Scripture that speaks of the soul talking in heaven after death?
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 2:36:38 GMT -5
Dave asks: "Are you telling me that there is Zero difference between you and a goldfish at a pet store? Man is just animal - there is nothing spiritual about man?
Rob replies: Correct.
However, since we made in the image of GOD, a little under GOD, with creative powers and a free thinking mind like GOD, we are different to the other animals, which are not made in this image. This makes mankind a special creature, even though our biological functions are the same as other animals.
Which Scripture tells us we are special?
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (KJV)
Dave writes: "Ruwach means spirit - you force it to mean only the HS
Rob: Actually the word ruwach means "wind", a "special wind", not ordinary wind.
The Holy Spirit as a Divine Being is the Shadday.
The duality function of the Holy Spirit is "wind" that is actually an agency, or medium.
Science says "wind" is a medium, the media of air carries energy as an agency, over the space. Therefore the HS is a agency for GOD's power.
But this word is also meant to mean "character", the qualities that man creatures, who they are as personalities, what translations term "spirit".
This is what your referring to...."spirit" ...
but where in Scripture is our "spirit" also an "eternal soul"
Here your not using the term "nephesh" but "ruwach" in this special case...
Where is this special case clearly written?
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Do you have any Scriptures that speak of your "spirit" as an "eternal soul"?
There is only one verse I know of:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
What does this phrase "eternal spirit" refer to? Not sure. Perhaps you have other Scriptures to speak of the "spirit" as a "soul"?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 29, 2020 3:13:08 GMT -5
Dave asks: "Are you telling me that there is Zero difference between you and a goldfish at a pet store? Man is just animal - there is nothing spiritual about man? Rob replies: Correct. However, man is different Confusing – man is a slug or is a man Why does the LXX use the term ‘Human being” for Adam But living creature for animals?
Rob: Actually the word ruwach means "wind", a "special wind", not ordinary wind. The duality function of the Holy Spirit is "wind" that is actually an agency, or medium. Now we are having a real discussion – wind = movement – special wind
But this word is also meant to mean "character", the qualities that man creatures, who they are as personalities, what translations term "spirit". I would say “character” is who you are alone in the dark – more closely to the real me – subconscious me – character is an expression of the soul – the thing that makes me=me
Spirit = movement = wind = the projection of the soul over a distance = movement Spirit = personality – the person we pretend to be in public I have a soul – you have a soul – but it is our spirits that interact
Soul = a thing = a location Spirit = communication
God is a thing – and has a location (although it is beyond my comprehension) How does God communicate – via spirit (which in His case = HS) and of course - or as His image = Christ
but where in Scripture is our "spirit" also an "eternal soul" eternal life = eternal spirit = eternal soul – why argue vocabulary
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
SEE – the HS and the spirit within us are two separate things One belong to God and one belongs to me
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Post by Dave on Jun 29, 2020 3:19:41 GMT -5
If you want to understand what it is like to be Jewish please study this word
korban (קָרְבָּן qorbān), also spelled qorban or corban
Hint - it means so much more than an animal sacrifice Make it a new thread
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Post by Dave on Jun 29, 2020 3:49:39 GMT -5
Jewish MidRash 1st book of Adam and Eve
Adam and Eve are expelled from the garden – where did they go? 1:9 And God commanded him to dwell there in a cave in a rock--the Cave of Treasures below the garden. The Cave of treasures in Jewish legend = the hiding place of the Books of Enoch that Noah used to build the ark (heavenly scientific text books) – every Bible study you have ever heard about ‘gopher wood’ being some type of pitch based laminate / plywood comes from this book – Jewish MidRash
3:1 GOD said to Adam, "I have ordained on this earth days and years, and thou and thy seed shall dwell and walk in it, until the days and years are fulfilled; when I shall send the Word that created thee, and against which thou hast transgressed, the Word that made thee come out of the garden and that raised thee when thou wast fallen. 2 Yea, the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled."
3 Points #1 – this was written 350 BC Egypt – I have even read criticism of John that he got his text from this more ancient pagan (Jewish) text #2 – why doesn’t this verse make every Christian jump up and down with the joy of validation? Yet – you and every other Catholic out there consider this to be Gnostic junk (your words) #3 – this is the beginning text of the 5500 year prophesy – that sounded almost SDA
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 14:07:38 GMT -5
Interesting.
You say I play word games, but you do also:
SEE – the HS and the spirit within us are two separate things One belong to God and one belongs to me
The verse is difficult to translate:
But your saying "ruwach" can mean "two separate things" ? That is your word play.
Ro 8:16 The Holy Spirit administrates our witness with our spirit, (administrated by the Holy Spirit) that we are the children of God:
Now this makes the word "ruwach" retain it's single basic meaning. It's function as medium of GOD's power, is an ambassador or administrator, processing the "breath of living" in us, and the "character development we do, using aspects of God's character of love"
I asked for you other texts to back up your claim, the "spirit" is something you own. You didn't supply any.
You asked me before, is God the only one who is living? I would say yes. Man lives because the divine presence of GOD within him, lives, making the partnership of humanity with divinity, also live.
Without GOD nothing would exist. You agree with this?
Even your character development is developed by taking the aspects of God's love. You develop them as a unique collection, that makes you unique. You are a steward of God treasures of love.
Are you sure Adam and Eve, with perfect memory, would need to write books? I am not even sure if Enoch had to write books, would not the whole of humans also have perfect but failing memories since the fall, have no need for books until a much later stage?
Though the Gnostic comments are interesting. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 30, 2020 10:02:34 GMT -5
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
SEE – the HS and the spirit within us are two separate things One belong to God and one belongs to me
Interesting. - You say I play word games, but you do also:
But your saying "ruwach" can mean "two separate things" ? That is your word play.
No I don’t - ruwach means spirit - what else do I make it mean God has a spirit - it is called the Holy Spirit We have a spirit - it is called man It was breathed into us at Gen 2:7
Man’s spirit was created before earth Man’s spirit existed in heaven with the Holy Spirit / God Then man’s spirit was mated to an animal body at conception at mortal death - our spirit return to God / Holy Spirit
You mother has blood in her veins You have blood in your veins are you arguing that my blood is only mom’s - not mine - then why do I have daddy’s blood type?
Dog means dog I have a dog - I have currently 3 dogs - they are not the same dog they are 3 different dogs I have a car -= you have a car - therefore by your words logic - therefore your car belongs me
How about house - I have one - you have one - who do they belong to?
God has a spirit = HS - the HS = God The spirit with me and you is not the HS - or that would make both you and I GOD! The HS can commune with your spirit - guiadance / comfort / revelation You can commune with the HS - this is called prayer
If you are born again - you can walk in communion
Why does Jesus need to come into your heart if the HS is already there?
Now this makes the word "ruwach" retain it's single basic meaning. It's function as medium of GOD's power, is an ambassador or administrator, processing the "breath of living" in us, and the "character development we do, using aspects of God's character of love"
You asked me before, is God the only one who is living? I would say yes. So every life in the universe is just GOD - satan is GOD - the BEAST is GOD - the DEVIL is GOD - Hitler was GOD So when EVE disobeyed GOD - GOD disobeyed GOD and if your satan hates GOD - and your satan is God - then Gods hates God
Man lives because the divine presence of GOD within him, lives, making the partnership of humanity with divinity, also live.
So - either everyone of us is saved because God is within us you are more than a Christian - you are GOD
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 13:42:49 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I note a problem here, and to be fair, it is a problem to me too...
The word is "ruwach", which let's say means "spirit".
1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
I am trying like you to fathom how this word works...
In your view, GOD creates both good and evil, so GOD is the author of the good spirit and the evil spirit that comes over Saul. My problem with this is GOD does not do evil. The Evil comes as a result of breaking relationship with GOD.
Notice the sentence, Saul departs from GOD, breaks relationship.
If you break relationship there is a change in the administration of your character (spirit).
If you say your spirit is eternally you from the beginning, why do we develop as babies growing up in the Lord? And how does Saul get a evil spirit, when he had a good spirit?
Dave asks: "If you are born again - you can walk in communion
Why does Jesus need to come into your heart if the HS is already there?
1) Because Jesus is divine, but his divinity is hampered by his humanity, and cannot be inside all the redeemed all over the world at the same time, unlike the HS which can, so the HS becomes another comforter or helper for Jesus, so for the redeemed, the Holy Spirit also administrates the "breath of salvation" that flows from Jesus, as well as the "breath of living" that flows from the Father.
2) Also, love is always highly relational, so requires community effort. You don't like this idea of love, and see GOD as a single entity with three expressions, E M and C2.
When GOD visits man, Genesis 16,17. ; the YHWH came with the Shadday, again a community effort, because love is always relational. The meeting of Moses at the burning bush, the picture begins with a messenger of Elohiym, than YHWH, again a community response because love is always relational.
Dave writes: "So every life in the universe is just GOD
Rob replies: No, that would be pantheism. God is like quantum and creates matter, than adds further sparks or living so some matter ordered so with the DNA lives.
If I have a computer with DNA code in it (BIOS) and plug in power (sparks of life), the computer becomes energized (nephesh verb) as a living energy (nephesh noun). The computer can talk, respond and do, much like a human can.
But this does not make the computer a god, or a human, even though humans engineered the computer. Once you shut down the computer, the memories remain on disc, the power sparks return to the source, and that very second the living energy stops thinking and doing.
Since the computer lives in sinners world, the metal and technology is subject to decay, so the bit rot happens and eventually the disc of memories fade and decay causing the whole machine to die. Nothing short of a miracle can awake a very old computer as it rusts away.
Just because computers run on sparks of quantum which is some how flowing from GOD does not mean the computer is like god or even a god, as you say.
Science says when you connect power, there is a emf force at the speed of light, and a slow flow of electrons. What powers the computer, like just what is electricity, is a mystery... so let's not pretend we understand these things, at this level.
The memories on the hard drive of a computer become you over time, as you develop typed words and thoughts on your living machinery. Scripture termed this "spirit", the administration of you develops, as you develop from a babe to a full man of thinking.
SO is there a divine part inside the computer from it's beginning? Yes. Its called the BIOS, the basic input output system that tells the matter and its bits, that in a logic ordered world, you can become a living machine, if energized.
Where did this BIOS come from? From a clever human who programmed the code.
Without this code, the living machine would not work. What causes the character of the computer, is you developing your own world of inputs and outputs. This only happens while your at your computer while it's a living machine.
So from this analogy, I don't think the Holy Spirit actively drives your matter as living energy every moment as a Personal presence, but than I am not certain either. All I can say, is the Holy Spirit functions as a mediator or medium or agency for the flow of input and output so you function as you. And without this BIOS or the HS, nothing would become of you. As humans we require a divinity element to us, because love is relational and needs partnership and co-operation.
But like the BIOS in computers, it is not a computer's memory of hard drive character, it is merely the firmware that drives you as you. Without it, nothing of you would develop.
I hope this analogy of the computer helps you. It makes sense to me.
Dave writes: "
1 God has a spirit - it is called the Holy Spirit 2 We have a spirit - it is called man 3 It was breathed into us at Gen 2:7
4 Man’s spirit was created before earth 5 Man’s spirit existed in heaven with the Holy Spirit / God 6 Then man’s spirit was mated to an animal body at conception 7 at mortal death - our spirit return to God / Holy Spirit
Rob replies line by line:
1 The Father has character, that is revealed by the Holy Spirit. 2 Man has character, that is administrated by the Holy Spirit.
3 The "breath of living" allows our character to develop inside it's body. 4 God knows all your character before you develop your character. 5 Your character is known in heaven, but characters require bodies with them. 6 Your character develops as a babe in its body, GOD's foreknowledge knows you. 7 at mortal death, the character development stops. The administration ends.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 30, 2020 18:05:00 GMT -5
I note a problem here, and to be fair, it is a problem to me too... It is your method of word identification
The word is "ruwach", which let's say means "spirit". OK - lets agree it means spirit - it has more meaning and implications - but spirit works for me Wind - cannot be contained - you can feel it but not see it -you can only see the result of it Wind - if you capture it and measure it - it is not wind anymore it is just air
1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
In your view, GOD creates both good and evil, so GOD is the author of the good spirit and the evil spirit that comes over Saul. My problem with this is GOD does not do evil. The Evil comes as a result of breaking relationship with GOD.
WHAT? Never in a million years have I ever heard of this phenomena being described as you just did
Notice the sentence, Saul departs from GOD, breaks relationship. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul If this was the HS ruwach that is Saul - why didn’t Saul fall dead without his spirit
If you break relationship there is a change in the administration of your character (spirit). And how does Saul get a evil spirit, when he had a good spirit? Then you think Saul’s spirit was replace by and evil spirit - WHAT!
1- Saul is in communication / communion with God - Just as a Christian would describe ‘Born Again’ 2- this is a two way conversation - or is the HS God just speaking to the God HS 3- then God sends a demon / archon onto Saul - like I could sick my dog on someone - to trouble Saul
3 different spirits here - the God/HS speaking to Saul and the evil spirit
If you say your spirit is eternally you from the beginning, why do we develop as babies growing up in the Lord? Because we entered the carnal Contest -
Dave asks: "If you are born again - you can walk in communion Why does Jesus need to come into your heart if the HS is already there?
1) Because Jesus is divine, but his divinity is hampered by his humanity, and cannot be inside all the redeemed all over the world at the same time, unlike the HS which can, so the HS becomes another comforter or helper for Jesus, so for the redeemed, the Holy Spirit also administrates the "breath of salvation" that flows from Jesus, as well as the "breath of living" that flows from the Father.
So your argument = Christ cannot do something Christ cannot commune with all the Christians at the same time - you Gods head is a limited thing that cannot do stuff - you rob the divinity of it divinity - Christ cannot
2) Also, love is always highly relational, so requires community effort. You don't like this idea of love, and see GOD as a single entity with three expressions, E M and C2. That community would be you and God / The Trinity
Dave writes: "So every life in the universe is just GOD …. I hope this analogy of the computer helps you. It makes sense to me.
Let’s talk about your computer Where did the computer come from - man crested it from the dust of the earth all the plastic, copper, aluminum, and tin ate just atoms each atom = invisible clouds of E - that are held together by sub-atomic forces This invisible sub-atomic world is best measured as waves of E or E in motion
For me - this moving E = HS = the sustainer of all creation - that we see as the electromagnetic wave spectrum E=mc2 There no (m) anywhere that is not defined by its (c2) which is just and expression of the E
So now I have a computer (m) totally composed of (E) and sustained by the (C2) of E But so far this computer does nothing it is just (Body) The (Body) won’t even turn on - come alive - until it is plugged back into the electromagnetic spectrum of E we call electricity
So I have a computer made of E - on one level - sub-atomic and a computer energized by E - on a different level / dimension - 3D reality So man downloads into that lifeless computer (BIOS) - not the computer = (Bios/Body) What does BIOS do - it runs the clock and other important body functions - instinct
If you wasn’t to call this (Nephesh/Body) - (intelligence / instinct / Mind - Body) Now I have a living creature - that consumes energy and will one day break down and die
Did you ever play with a ‘Commodore 64’ - my 14 yr old daughter’s calculator can do more than that computer did
Then - Gen 2:7 - God breathed into that first man computer - the breath of life - our operating system Without Windows - your (Nephesh/Body) (Mind/Body) does not do much at all so now the man computer = (Windows +(Mind/Body))
Then here is my next point - not every computer got “Windows” as an OS Some man computers got - Mac OS, Lynix, Umbuntu, Dos, Android, or many more
Each computer is the same on the inside (Mind/Body) - but we are each an individual
Same as (Soul + (Mind/Body)) - Mind Body is pretty much the same But we each have a different SOUL - which is our spirit
1 The Father has character, that is revealed by the Holy Spirit. 2 Man has character, that is administrated by the Holy Spirit. So our character is the HS 3 The "breath of living" allows our character to develop inside it's body. And the HS is allowed to change and develop?
The HS = GOD - why don't you consider youself callig yourself GOD If the person that thinks within you is just the HS - then you are claiming to be God
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 2:39:09 GMT -5
Interesting discussion here Dave... Like your answers... let me think more on what you have said...
Rob : Man has character, that is administrated by the Holy Spirit. Dave: Man has character that is the HS.
Have I summarized your view correctly?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 1, 2020 10:00:22 GMT -5
Rob : Man has character, that is administrated by the Holy Spirit. Dave: Man has character that is the HS. Have I summarized your view correctly?
No - and you know you havent you keep telling me that man has no spirit of his own - there is no such thing as man’s independent spirit - man is not an individual
You say we are just an animals like a dog - and the HS within us drives us like a bus
I say - man was created as an independent spirit before the world was created This independent spirit is a soul - a person - an individual
At conception - God mates us with our animal body
Our spirit - has a mortal souljourn
at moral death - our soul / our spirit returns to God where it continues to live it continues to live - in Hades (which does not mean hell) - some receive judgment - some receive pardon
on a different level - the sub-atomic level The E that energizes each atom within me = that matrix / ether / the electromagnetic spectrum that fuels everything - the rock - the trees - the water - as well as living matter
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 12:38:40 GMT -5
Sorry.
How about this than?
Rob : Man has character, that is administrated by the Holy Spirit. Dave: Man has character, that is powered by an eternal spirit, given to us by GOD, but is independent from GOD, that develops in man as us. Have I summarized your view correctly?
I don't like this statement I wrote because it is essentially the same as mine.
What do you mean by independent?
Technically nothing is independent from GOD, so my above statement is wrong, even the atoms as you say require the power E from GOD to exist. Only empty space is truly independent from GOD, but then you have nothing.
To me Man's character develops uniquely from God's character, because we pick and choose daily promises we like, promises we don't like, and so using variety from over some 3,500 Bible sees promises, we develop characters that are unique, yet all derived from God's broad character of love. So in that sense our character is unique, but it is never independent.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 1, 2020 14:47:38 GMT -5
char·ac·ter - Biology - noun 1. the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual. "running away was not in keeping with her character" Similar: personality, nature, disposition, temperament, temper, mentality turn of mind 2. a person in a novel, play, or movie. Similar: persona, person, role, part 3. the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing. one such feature or trait; characteristic. moral or ethical quality: a man of fine, honorable character.
Rob : Man has character, that is administrated by the Holy Spirit. So you are saying that your personality, the way you behave is administered by the HS What do you mean by administered? Provided and then let go to run its own course? or the HS dictates each and every thing you think?
Dave: Man has character, that is powered by an eternal spirit, given to us by GOD, but is independent from GOD, that develops in man as us. Have I summarized your view correctly?
NO - and it might be cultural difference - in America a man’s character is the reflection of his mind - not his soul The soul does not develop / evolve with in us - it comes to us fully mature The soul does not age - does not grow old - the soul is eternal = eternal life
A man’s personality can change over time - war / trauma
Maybe this is why you think angels can change whenever they want to
What do you mean by independent? my soul is a unique essence / being - it is not mortal - it is not the product of Mind it was breathed into man at Gen 2:7 and this makes us different that all the other living creatures they are living creatures - man is a living being / human being (Soul + (Mind/Body) Why don’t we say cow being -or canine being - because they are just (Mind/Body) my soul is as independent as each and individual angel
Technically nothing is independent from GOD, so my above statement is wrong, even the atoms as you say require the power E from GOD to exist. Only empty space is truly independent from GOD, but then you have nothing.
Not nothing - God is omnipresent - the HS = omnipresent - the matrix / ether E=mc2 - think of it as E = space (matter) time (C2) - no matter where you are - you are in space time See - you think only one dimensionally - the E that sustains the atom is of a different frequency, different amplitude, different level than the HS that speaks to your soul
Just as visible light is only a small portion (very small) of the EM Spectrum The sun shines down upon your face Visible light is illumination your environment simultaneously - infra red and ultra violet are effecting your body in ways you cannot feel - until it is too late You do not experience the untra violate as a corporeal thing - you only feel its result - sunburn You don’t even know the CAUSE is there - but you sure suffer its consequences
To me Man's character develops uniquely from God's character, because we pick and choose daily promises we like, promises we don't like, and so using variety from over some 3,500 Bible sees promises, we develop characters that are unique, yet all derived from God's broad character of love. So in that sense our character is unique, but it is never independent.
Man’s character / personality / a product of intellect (Mind/Body) does learn and grow - YES And as a student - we learn the proper direction to grow from the Torah Remember Valentinus - the ordinary Christian or Jew get stuck in the legalism of the Torah They learn and TRY HARDER - force themselves to stay current with all the latest religious rituals.
However, the goal is - for both Jew and Christian is to see the message in the law - to see the Gospel in the Law - come to understand the Law within your heart NOT YOUR CONSCIOUS MIND of (Mind/Body)
Many many linguistic experts are far from saved Many many ordinary guys like you and me - get it - just as King David did
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