Post by Dave on Jan 7, 2024 15:34:17 GMT -5
If you post many sources, "saying the names they are called does not matter" than why do you promote archons as a name so much?
To make the difference clear
I have offered to call them by any name you want – we could just call them demons – we could call them principalities - we could call them the boogy man – but they are not OT satan
The biggest difference between us is your idea that these SHAD or Shedim under various names, "serpents" . "demons", "archons", "sinning angels" whatever, exist separately to the HaSatan, and that the HaSatan is a different creature, a good angel doing the bad job of prosecuting humans for their sins.
Difference #1 - Hebrew satan = an good-guy angel of the Lord
The beast – are beast – created creatures of biology – beast of the field that God had made – Gen 3:1
Difference #2 – goodguy angels of the Lord – do not reproduce
The term – serpent’s seed = they do reproduce
Gen 6 – the archon – proved they were beast – because they did reproduce
Difference #3 – your goo-guy angel – recreated himself – change his assigned role within creation
Your satan rebelled out of his own pride (yeater ra) because he hates God – and opposes God’s right to rule the universe
Angels – do not have (yester ra) – it is a commandment given to beast / animals
Difference #4 – your satan – created himself – proving that creation can change and create itself
Scripture clearily says – nothing exist that God did not make – John
Scripture clearily says – God made everything for His own pleasure – Rev
Scripture says the Archon – and all the INVISIBLE undesirables in our lives were created by God for God
Whereas mainstream Christian groups see HaSatan as the chief of the shedim or shad, and that their is no difference to the NT Shad and the OT shad, or between the OT Satan and the NT Satan. We see Satan as the chief SHAD who opposes human salvation.
mainstream Christian groups see HaSatan as the chief of the shedim – you mean Catholic
SDA definition of fallen angels is copy paste from Roman Catholic Catechism – both in cause and effect
No one ever heard this tradition until Rome started preaching it with the authority of OUR CHURCH ONLY EMPIRE – there is only one way through a Catholic Church door
The same message sounds familure today by many OUR WAY ONLY groups
HaSatan as the chief of the shedim – one is an angel the others (pl) are beast / biology / serpents
their is no difference to the NT Shad and the OT shad, - what you wrote is correct
or between the OT Satan and the NT Satan – ERROR – not true – religious tradition – Catholic
1- OT Jews – and Jews today – have two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast)
2- the NT authors had two groups G4566 from the 1% (only mentioned once)
the NT is talking more specifically about G4567 from the 99% who is Rev 12 BEAST / Gen 3 serpent
Apart from your John and Job - The Satan's source document, with a little hint that the evil was done by some other being, you do not have an scholars who support this difference in evil agency.
I have presented to you – and presented many other sources OT satan and NT satanas are not the same
OT satan - is friends with God – serves God – never refuses or disobeys God
NT satanas – is no one’s fried – malevolent – destructive – our real struggle (ARCHON)
James Tabor called this the Greatest Paradigm Shift In The History Of Though
Jewish Job and Catholic John were not discussing the same satan at all
Jewish Job had many small satans in the world + the the prosecutor
Catholic John spoke of his evil demon – the dragon – the father of evil
OT Jews – and Jews today – have two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast)
NT Pentecostal Messianic Jews of the first and second century AD – the original Christians
Were all Jewish and – have two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast)
The only thing that changed was vocabulary -
two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast) Reb 12 BEAST – who is the serpent beast of the field we call devils and G44567 satanas
OT demonology = NT demonology
The only thing that changed was vocabulary
Mathew 5:17-20 – nothing changed – demonology was not changed – theology was not change but fulfilled – (Jewish Theology + The Messiah ) = NT Pentecostal Messianic Jews = Gentile Christians
This is the theology / demonology of Jesus G4567 satanas = Beelzebub and OT shedim – a beast
By the 4th century Rome changed it all
We see Hebrew Satan (an angel) as the chief SHAD (a beast of the field / serpent) who opposes human salvation.
Correct – and the only way this is true – is if you rewrite the OT – to change the personality of Hebrew satan from friends with God to God’s personal enemy
The challenge to you has always been – validate you Ezk 28 satan god of evil – precept upon precept, line upon line with the bulk of the OT – or even NT
Satan – OT or NT – NEVER opposes God – impossible
OT satan opposes man
NT satanas oppose man and all creation – the rocks – the stars – and man
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Our difference is I see Satan as the chief being for his SHAD. They were all once messengers from heaven, ie angels that sinned.
YEP – you teach Catholic FALLEN ANGELS
1- God created angels to serve and praise (yester tov)
2- then one of them rose up with pride (yester ra) and changed himself into the god of evil
This teaches a weak God that cannot control His own creation
The idea that anyone could FALL from unrequited love (GRACE) is an oxymoron
The idea that a created being could change / alter God – God’s Plan against God’s Will is just BLASPHEMY
You and Ellen White take it even farther – two gods in heaven locked in a struggle for God’s throne
As soon as you say God is tov only --- you need another creator god to create himself
The only thing your Ezk 28 self-made god of evil serves is to ELEVATE satan to godhood
ABSOLUTE SATANIC BLASPHEMY
Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be.
The Beast – exist – therefore all a part of God’s Plan – God’s Will
As a man do I like it / do I wish it was different / it is our reality / our story
What is that reality – God’s Plan – written into creation from the beginning
Creation → darkness → LIGHT → man’ choice (ignorance or obedience) → salvation → New Birth → New Heaven and Earth
What is that reality – God’s Plan – written into scripture
Creation → darkness → LIGHT → man → salvation → → New Heaven and Earth
What is that reality – God’s Plan – written into scripture?
Gen 1:1 – Beginning
Gen 1:2 – darkness / choshek / ignorance
Gen 1:3 – the LIGHT of truth
Gen 1:4 – God likes the Light / good – chosen
Gen 1:4 – a separation / salvation that illuminates the darkness – a harvest
Gen 1:5 – Day 1
Gen 1:1 – Beginning = Rosh Hashanah
Gen 1:2 – choshek = Yom Kippur
Gen 1:3 – the LIGHT of truth = Sukkot / Tabernacles
Gen 1:4 – God likes the Light / good – chosen = Purim
Gen 1:4 – a separation / salvation that illuminates the darkness – a harvest – Peasch /Passover
Gen 1:5 – Day 1 - a harvest – Shavout - Pentecost
Gen 1:1 – Rosh Hashanah – since your birth
Gen 1:2 – Yom Kippur – you need to decide for yourself – believe or not
Gen 1:3 – Sukkot - the Gospel is right in front of you
Gen 1:4 – Purim – salvation is only from the Lord -
Gen 1:4 – Peasch /Passover – Jesus Christ is the Messiah
Gen 1:5 – Day 1 - a harvest – Shavout - Pentecost
Jewish belief #2 – God tests His people. - Why does God test His people? Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
You claim this is not fair
Truth – God is omniscient – and knew exactly what would happened as soon as He man made with biology – because biology comes with (yester ra) needs
Truth – you can have the best dog in the world – loves you with is own life – would die for you to save you – love – true love –-- but--- lock him in the house and go away
Sooner or later (yester ra) bodily needs of the flesh will shit on your carpet
Truth - god new exactly what would happened – your satan changed nothing
Truth - god new exactly what would happened – and God placed Eve and the serpent in the same garden
Jewish belief #3 - Why does God do it? - To reveal Himself, to reveal His power and glory
(to prove that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God)
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
1- this is the reality of living like an animal
2- and the promise of salvation
Beginning = Rosh Hashanah
Gen 3:15 feels like a curse – and is also the promise of salvation – the promise of the Messiah
Gen 3:15 feels like Gen 1:2 – darkness / choshek / ignorance + Gen 1:3 – the LIGHT of truth
Gen 3:15 feels like Gen 1:2 – darkness / choshek / ignorance + John 3:16
Gen 3:15 = Gen 1:2 – choshek + John 3:16 + a separation / salvation / a harvest – Shavout
Gen 3:15 = Gen 1:2 – choshek + John 3:16 + Rev 20 + Rev 21
This is the message / teaching of Judaism and Christianity
In all of this “satan” is represented as ignorance and darkness
Hebrew satan is not ignorant of God – is not ignorant enough to oppose God – instead obeys / serves
Ignorance comes with being a created being of matter – first thought – SELF – (yester ra) – animal
The BEAST of Revelation = the dragon = the serpent
Gen 3:1 the serpent is a beast of the field – the God made
God made them – for a purpose
God place the serpent and man in the same garden and knew what would happen
God allowed it to happen
God USED the serpent to test Eve
Gen 3:14 – God cursed the serpent
Gen 3:15 - God USES the serpent
Gen 3:15 - God forces the serpent and his seed into the contest
Gen 3:15 – God forces the women and her seed into the contest
Gen 3:16 - God curse the woman
Gen 3:17 – God curse man
Gen 3:17 – God cursed the ground
Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be.
The Beast – exist – therefore all a part of God’s Plan – God’s Will
D" Sorry Robert – the REAILTY OF THE ARCHON – permeates history and current events
ROB" I agree, the "whatever you call them" do permeate history, and current events, the SHAD and the chief SHAD have been with opposing humans for a long time, since the beginning.
This is a true statement
+
We see Satan as the chief SHAD who opposes human salvation.
I do not believe this is true
Space aliens gods? Ancient astronauts, Baal, Dogon, Arabic Jinn - Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Nags, serpent gods - Are the OT shedim – it is myth today – it is superstition
NOPE –all real – all the beast – all the dragon – all the serpent – al biological crated beings – the NT calls archon / satanas G4567
ROB" I agree, the "whatever you call them" do permeate history, and current events, the SHAD and the chief SHAD have been with opposing humans for a long time, since the beginning.
This is a true statement
Question for you - the OT shedim
Space aliens gods? Ancient astronauts, Baal, Dogon, Arabic Jinn - Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Nags, serpent gods – devils and demons of all sizes and shapes
Why did your God of tov only allow this to dominate the entire world long before Abram
When asked before – you said – “I Dunno”
Jews have an answer – Gnostics have an answer
Jewish belief #3 - Why does God do it? - To reveal Himself, to reveal His power and glory
(to prove that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God)
Socrates - quote – “To form a crucible to reveal the truth”
Why John 3:16 – Jesus Christ is only the 1st coming – age of the Gentile – 2nd coming?
Jewish belief #3 - Why does God do it? - To reveal Himself, to reveal His power and glory
(to prove that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God)
Socrates - quote – “To form a crucible to reveal the truth”
If you allow it – Judaism is very simple - Gnostic Christianity of the Nag Hammadi is simple
Authoritative Teaching – a early Christian commentary
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What is the only requirement
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.”
Rom 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart it is believed for righteousness, and with the mouth it is confessed for salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever trusts in Him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all—richly generous to all who call on Him.
Rom 10:13 For “Everyone who calls upon the name of Adonai shall be saved.”
Repeat – Jesus , His Disciples, His followers, His Apostle – the First Christians were Pentecostal Messianic Jews
Repeat – their Theology and Demonology was Jewish
Repeat – Mathew 5:17-20 – nothing changed – except vocabulary
You on the other hand see Satan as a good angel and the SHAD as archons creatures opposing man.
Hebrew satan H7854 / G4566 – is an angel of the Lord
Who is assigned a hated role within creation – a hard job –a dirty Job
All men are sinners – who likes the prosecutor – no one
Zec 3 – the prosecutor is saying – Joshua is a sinner – don’t let him into heaven
Zec 3 – God says – sorry prosecutor – I like / I forgive / I save / I garnt a Divine Pardon
In Christian Lore / mythology – St Peter standing at the pearly gates – allowing only the worthy into heaven – always a good guy – never the satan
Gnostic – there is a demon in the sky – catching you on your way into heaven – allowing only the worthy to pass
James Tabor – we wake up in hell – facing our demons – and they ask ‘who are you’
If you say – I am a child of God and my home is in heaven – they let you go home
If you say – I am Carlos from Spain – they trap you in hell for re-education
Hebrew satan is not lost from the theology – but all of Judaism has become obscure in the revelation of the NT Gospel and the age of Roman Catholic dominance
Just as the shedim have become obscure in the age of Roman Catholic dominance
--------------------------
I have yet to see any scholar saying the Greek satanas word is a different creature than the Hebrew Satan word. ,
Just your word game to justify your disbelief – your need for disbelief
If Ezk 28 is about man – If Isa 14 is about man – then Ellen White’s Great Controversy fails.
If satan is not the god of evil – then God becomes the God of tov and ra
Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be.
The Beast – exist – therefore all a part of God’s Plan – God’s Will
I re-read your posts. So you are a book junkie. I met a Pastor once who had a collection of 10,000 books, filled a double garage with 12 shelves. I asked do you read them all? He said yes.
1- I have always studied with several opened book spread out in front of me
Check this book – reference that book - check that fact –
Most of my books are marked up – I use my own markings to locate information – my book have multiple book tooth picks – penciles – strips of paper sticking out as book marks – vrs all hr pages I bend the corner of the page
When I’m limited to a single screen – I end up with multiple tabs – just doesn’t flow the same for me
Do I read them all – cover to cover – very few
I can't afford such things, but I do like reading. Most of my reading is on the www.
Remember I am a medical professional – I have $$$$ in text book – reference books – continuing ed books – I once paid $400 for a microbiology text book – and $500 on a microbiology CD-Rom - but it all came off my taxes
As for Greek – I own 10-15 for me – but of those I just use 3
As for Greek – I bought a collection by Xenophon from a library closing sale
I use amazon – I will read or hear something – and buy the book just for that passage
Because of James Tabor – I just bought The Gospel of Peter in Greek
OVER TIME IT JUST ADDS UP
Am I bragging – my wife will say it is too much
What would be your best book Dave?
1- Bible doesn’t count
2- best in what category?
Most memorable first book I could not put down = Marathon Man – William Goldman
The books I have re-read the most = Ring World Trilogy by Paul Hogan
The books that impacted my life views =
Passport to Patagonia – Jacques Valley
Messengers of Deception - Jacques Valley
What is on my desk
The Waters Above – JL Moody – a discussion of the firmament above – very hard read
Many Infallible Proofs – Phillip Morris
Angels – Billy Graham
Origin of the Species – Darwin – a surprise not evolution as I was taught
The Creation according to the MidRash Rabbah – Wilfred Shuchat – very hard read
The Quantum Zoo – Marcos Chown – very hard read
Decoding Reality, and the Universe of Quantum Information – Vlatko vedral – very hard read
Genesis, Zen and Quantum Physics – Jeff Brenner
Heretics – the Creation of Christianity from the Gnostics to the Modern Church – Johnathan Wright
The Earth Moves -, Galileo and the Roman Inquisition - Dan Hofstadter
Essay on the Jinn (demons) – Abu Ameenah Bilah Phillips – Islamic
The book of Giants, Fallen Angels and their Giant Sons – Dead Sea Scrolls
Several different Bibles - and a Koran
Herndon's Earth and the Dark Side of Science - J. Marvin Herndon
Maverick's Earth and Universe - J. Marvin Herndon
NASA: Politics above Science - J. Marvin Herndon
To make the difference clear
I have offered to call them by any name you want – we could just call them demons – we could call them principalities - we could call them the boogy man – but they are not OT satan
The biggest difference between us is your idea that these SHAD or Shedim under various names, "serpents" . "demons", "archons", "sinning angels" whatever, exist separately to the HaSatan, and that the HaSatan is a different creature, a good angel doing the bad job of prosecuting humans for their sins.
Difference #1 - Hebrew satan = an good-guy angel of the Lord
The beast – are beast – created creatures of biology – beast of the field that God had made – Gen 3:1
Difference #2 – goodguy angels of the Lord – do not reproduce
The term – serpent’s seed = they do reproduce
Gen 6 – the archon – proved they were beast – because they did reproduce
Difference #3 – your goo-guy angel – recreated himself – change his assigned role within creation
Your satan rebelled out of his own pride (yeater ra) because he hates God – and opposes God’s right to rule the universe
Angels – do not have (yester ra) – it is a commandment given to beast / animals
Difference #4 – your satan – created himself – proving that creation can change and create itself
Scripture clearily says – nothing exist that God did not make – John
Scripture clearily says – God made everything for His own pleasure – Rev
Scripture says the Archon – and all the INVISIBLE undesirables in our lives were created by God for God
Whereas mainstream Christian groups see HaSatan as the chief of the shedim or shad, and that their is no difference to the NT Shad and the OT shad, or between the OT Satan and the NT Satan. We see Satan as the chief SHAD who opposes human salvation.
mainstream Christian groups see HaSatan as the chief of the shedim – you mean Catholic
SDA definition of fallen angels is copy paste from Roman Catholic Catechism – both in cause and effect
No one ever heard this tradition until Rome started preaching it with the authority of OUR CHURCH ONLY EMPIRE – there is only one way through a Catholic Church door
The same message sounds familure today by many OUR WAY ONLY groups
HaSatan as the chief of the shedim – one is an angel the others (pl) are beast / biology / serpents
their is no difference to the NT Shad and the OT shad, - what you wrote is correct
or between the OT Satan and the NT Satan – ERROR – not true – religious tradition – Catholic
1- OT Jews – and Jews today – have two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast)
2- the NT authors had two groups G4566 from the 1% (only mentioned once)
the NT is talking more specifically about G4567 from the 99% who is Rev 12 BEAST / Gen 3 serpent
Apart from your John and Job - The Satan's source document, with a little hint that the evil was done by some other being, you do not have an scholars who support this difference in evil agency.
I have presented to you – and presented many other sources OT satan and NT satanas are not the same
OT satan - is friends with God – serves God – never refuses or disobeys God
NT satanas – is no one’s fried – malevolent – destructive – our real struggle (ARCHON)
James Tabor called this the Greatest Paradigm Shift In The History Of Though
Jewish Job and Catholic John were not discussing the same satan at all
Jewish Job had many small satans in the world + the the prosecutor
Catholic John spoke of his evil demon – the dragon – the father of evil
OT Jews – and Jews today – have two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast)
NT Pentecostal Messianic Jews of the first and second century AD – the original Christians
Were all Jewish and – have two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast)
The only thing that changed was vocabulary -
two unrelated groups – Hebrew satan (angel)+ shedim (beast) Reb 12 BEAST – who is the serpent beast of the field we call devils and G44567 satanas
OT demonology = NT demonology
The only thing that changed was vocabulary
Mathew 5:17-20 – nothing changed – demonology was not changed – theology was not change but fulfilled – (Jewish Theology + The Messiah ) = NT Pentecostal Messianic Jews = Gentile Christians
This is the theology / demonology of Jesus G4567 satanas = Beelzebub and OT shedim – a beast
By the 4th century Rome changed it all
We see Hebrew Satan (an angel) as the chief SHAD (a beast of the field / serpent) who opposes human salvation.
Correct – and the only way this is true – is if you rewrite the OT – to change the personality of Hebrew satan from friends with God to God’s personal enemy
The challenge to you has always been – validate you Ezk 28 satan god of evil – precept upon precept, line upon line with the bulk of the OT – or even NT
Satan – OT or NT – NEVER opposes God – impossible
OT satan opposes man
NT satanas oppose man and all creation – the rocks – the stars – and man
---------------------------------------
Our difference is I see Satan as the chief being for his SHAD. They were all once messengers from heaven, ie angels that sinned.
YEP – you teach Catholic FALLEN ANGELS
1- God created angels to serve and praise (yester tov)
2- then one of them rose up with pride (yester ra) and changed himself into the god of evil
This teaches a weak God that cannot control His own creation
The idea that anyone could FALL from unrequited love (GRACE) is an oxymoron
The idea that a created being could change / alter God – God’s Plan against God’s Will is just BLASPHEMY
You and Ellen White take it even farther – two gods in heaven locked in a struggle for God’s throne
As soon as you say God is tov only --- you need another creator god to create himself
The only thing your Ezk 28 self-made god of evil serves is to ELEVATE satan to godhood
ABSOLUTE SATANIC BLASPHEMY
Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be.
The Beast – exist – therefore all a part of God’s Plan – God’s Will
As a man do I like it / do I wish it was different / it is our reality / our story
What is that reality – God’s Plan – written into creation from the beginning
Creation → darkness → LIGHT → man’ choice (ignorance or obedience) → salvation → New Birth → New Heaven and Earth
What is that reality – God’s Plan – written into scripture
Creation → darkness → LIGHT → man → salvation → → New Heaven and Earth
What is that reality – God’s Plan – written into scripture?
Gen 1:1 – Beginning
Gen 1:2 – darkness / choshek / ignorance
Gen 1:3 – the LIGHT of truth
Gen 1:4 – God likes the Light / good – chosen
Gen 1:4 – a separation / salvation that illuminates the darkness – a harvest
Gen 1:5 – Day 1
Gen 1:1 – Beginning = Rosh Hashanah
Gen 1:2 – choshek = Yom Kippur
Gen 1:3 – the LIGHT of truth = Sukkot / Tabernacles
Gen 1:4 – God likes the Light / good – chosen = Purim
Gen 1:4 – a separation / salvation that illuminates the darkness – a harvest – Peasch /Passover
Gen 1:5 – Day 1 - a harvest – Shavout - Pentecost
Gen 1:1 – Rosh Hashanah – since your birth
Gen 1:2 – Yom Kippur – you need to decide for yourself – believe or not
Gen 1:3 – Sukkot - the Gospel is right in front of you
Gen 1:4 – Purim – salvation is only from the Lord -
Gen 1:4 – Peasch /Passover – Jesus Christ is the Messiah
Gen 1:5 – Day 1 - a harvest – Shavout - Pentecost
Jewish belief #2 – God tests His people. - Why does God test His people? Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
You claim this is not fair
Truth – God is omniscient – and knew exactly what would happened as soon as He man made with biology – because biology comes with (yester ra) needs
Truth – you can have the best dog in the world – loves you with is own life – would die for you to save you – love – true love –-- but--- lock him in the house and go away
Sooner or later (yester ra) bodily needs of the flesh will shit on your carpet
Truth - god new exactly what would happened – your satan changed nothing
Truth - god new exactly what would happened – and God placed Eve and the serpent in the same garden
Jewish belief #3 - Why does God do it? - To reveal Himself, to reveal His power and glory
(to prove that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God)
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
1- this is the reality of living like an animal
2- and the promise of salvation
Beginning = Rosh Hashanah
Gen 3:15 feels like a curse – and is also the promise of salvation – the promise of the Messiah
Gen 3:15 feels like Gen 1:2 – darkness / choshek / ignorance + Gen 1:3 – the LIGHT of truth
Gen 3:15 feels like Gen 1:2 – darkness / choshek / ignorance + John 3:16
Gen 3:15 = Gen 1:2 – choshek + John 3:16 + a separation / salvation / a harvest – Shavout
Gen 3:15 = Gen 1:2 – choshek + John 3:16 + Rev 20 + Rev 21
This is the message / teaching of Judaism and Christianity
In all of this “satan” is represented as ignorance and darkness
Hebrew satan is not ignorant of God – is not ignorant enough to oppose God – instead obeys / serves
Ignorance comes with being a created being of matter – first thought – SELF – (yester ra) – animal
The BEAST of Revelation = the dragon = the serpent
Gen 3:1 the serpent is a beast of the field – the God made
God made them – for a purpose
God place the serpent and man in the same garden and knew what would happen
God allowed it to happen
God USED the serpent to test Eve
Gen 3:14 – God cursed the serpent
Gen 3:15 - God USES the serpent
Gen 3:15 - God forces the serpent and his seed into the contest
Gen 3:15 – God forces the women and her seed into the contest
Gen 3:16 - God curse the woman
Gen 3:17 – God curse man
Gen 3:17 – God cursed the ground
Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be.
The Beast – exist – therefore all a part of God’s Plan – God’s Will
D" Sorry Robert – the REAILTY OF THE ARCHON – permeates history and current events
ROB" I agree, the "whatever you call them" do permeate history, and current events, the SHAD and the chief SHAD have been with opposing humans for a long time, since the beginning.
This is a true statement
+
We see Satan as the chief SHAD who opposes human salvation.
I do not believe this is true
Space aliens gods? Ancient astronauts, Baal, Dogon, Arabic Jinn - Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Nags, serpent gods - Are the OT shedim – it is myth today – it is superstition
NOPE –all real – all the beast – all the dragon – all the serpent – al biological crated beings – the NT calls archon / satanas G4567
ROB" I agree, the "whatever you call them" do permeate history, and current events, the SHAD and the chief SHAD have been with opposing humans for a long time, since the beginning.
This is a true statement
Question for you - the OT shedim
Space aliens gods? Ancient astronauts, Baal, Dogon, Arabic Jinn - Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Nags, serpent gods – devils and demons of all sizes and shapes
Why did your God of tov only allow this to dominate the entire world long before Abram
When asked before – you said – “I Dunno”
Jews have an answer – Gnostics have an answer
Jewish belief #3 - Why does God do it? - To reveal Himself, to reveal His power and glory
(to prove that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God)
Socrates - quote – “To form a crucible to reveal the truth”
Why John 3:16 – Jesus Christ is only the 1st coming – age of the Gentile – 2nd coming?
Jewish belief #3 - Why does God do it? - To reveal Himself, to reveal His power and glory
(to prove that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God)
Socrates - quote – “To form a crucible to reveal the truth”
If you allow it – Judaism is very simple - Gnostic Christianity of the Nag Hammadi is simple
Authoritative Teaching – a early Christian commentary
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What is the only requirement
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.”
Rom 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart it is believed for righteousness, and with the mouth it is confessed for salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever trusts in Him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all—richly generous to all who call on Him.
Rom 10:13 For “Everyone who calls upon the name of Adonai shall be saved.”
Repeat – Jesus , His Disciples, His followers, His Apostle – the First Christians were Pentecostal Messianic Jews
Repeat – their Theology and Demonology was Jewish
Repeat – Mathew 5:17-20 – nothing changed – except vocabulary
You on the other hand see Satan as a good angel and the SHAD as archons creatures opposing man.
Hebrew satan H7854 / G4566 – is an angel of the Lord
Who is assigned a hated role within creation – a hard job –a dirty Job
All men are sinners – who likes the prosecutor – no one
Zec 3 – the prosecutor is saying – Joshua is a sinner – don’t let him into heaven
Zec 3 – God says – sorry prosecutor – I like / I forgive / I save / I garnt a Divine Pardon
In Christian Lore / mythology – St Peter standing at the pearly gates – allowing only the worthy into heaven – always a good guy – never the satan
Gnostic – there is a demon in the sky – catching you on your way into heaven – allowing only the worthy to pass
James Tabor – we wake up in hell – facing our demons – and they ask ‘who are you’
If you say – I am a child of God and my home is in heaven – they let you go home
If you say – I am Carlos from Spain – they trap you in hell for re-education
Hebrew satan is not lost from the theology – but all of Judaism has become obscure in the revelation of the NT Gospel and the age of Roman Catholic dominance
Just as the shedim have become obscure in the age of Roman Catholic dominance
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I have yet to see any scholar saying the Greek satanas word is a different creature than the Hebrew Satan word. ,
Just your word game to justify your disbelief – your need for disbelief
If Ezk 28 is about man – If Isa 14 is about man – then Ellen White’s Great Controversy fails.
If satan is not the god of evil – then God becomes the God of tov and ra
Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be.
The Beast – exist – therefore all a part of God’s Plan – God’s Will
I re-read your posts. So you are a book junkie. I met a Pastor once who had a collection of 10,000 books, filled a double garage with 12 shelves. I asked do you read them all? He said yes.
1- I have always studied with several opened book spread out in front of me
Check this book – reference that book - check that fact –
Most of my books are marked up – I use my own markings to locate information – my book have multiple book tooth picks – penciles – strips of paper sticking out as book marks – vrs all hr pages I bend the corner of the page
When I’m limited to a single screen – I end up with multiple tabs – just doesn’t flow the same for me
Do I read them all – cover to cover – very few
I can't afford such things, but I do like reading. Most of my reading is on the www.
Remember I am a medical professional – I have $$$$ in text book – reference books – continuing ed books – I once paid $400 for a microbiology text book – and $500 on a microbiology CD-Rom - but it all came off my taxes
As for Greek – I own 10-15 for me – but of those I just use 3
As for Greek – I bought a collection by Xenophon from a library closing sale
I use amazon – I will read or hear something – and buy the book just for that passage
Because of James Tabor – I just bought The Gospel of Peter in Greek
OVER TIME IT JUST ADDS UP
Am I bragging – my wife will say it is too much
What would be your best book Dave?
1- Bible doesn’t count
2- best in what category?
Most memorable first book I could not put down = Marathon Man – William Goldman
The books I have re-read the most = Ring World Trilogy by Paul Hogan
The books that impacted my life views =
Passport to Patagonia – Jacques Valley
Messengers of Deception - Jacques Valley
What is on my desk
The Waters Above – JL Moody – a discussion of the firmament above – very hard read
Many Infallible Proofs – Phillip Morris
Angels – Billy Graham
Origin of the Species – Darwin – a surprise not evolution as I was taught
The Creation according to the MidRash Rabbah – Wilfred Shuchat – very hard read
The Quantum Zoo – Marcos Chown – very hard read
Decoding Reality, and the Universe of Quantum Information – Vlatko vedral – very hard read
Genesis, Zen and Quantum Physics – Jeff Brenner
Heretics – the Creation of Christianity from the Gnostics to the Modern Church – Johnathan Wright
The Earth Moves -, Galileo and the Roman Inquisition - Dan Hofstadter
Essay on the Jinn (demons) – Abu Ameenah Bilah Phillips – Islamic
The book of Giants, Fallen Angels and their Giant Sons – Dead Sea Scrolls
Several different Bibles - and a Koran
Herndon's Earth and the Dark Side of Science - J. Marvin Herndon
Maverick's Earth and Universe - J. Marvin Herndon
NASA: Politics above Science - J. Marvin Herndon