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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2022 11:12:18 GMT -5
Robert said - You stick to your Jewish writings and your Gnostic writings, Daves response -Correct Judaism is the foundation of Judeo-Christian theology – not Rome - or Ellen WhiteJesus saidMat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. The authors of my Gnostic writing are James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas – men who actually walked and talked with Jesus Christ both before and after the resurrection The very same authors of the agl/NTI will stick with the torah that Rome preserved – ‘The Received Text’ - Men like Luther, Huss, Spurgeon, Wycliffe, Tyndale, and later of course Ellen White, these early pioneers had the inspired messages of God, and demonstrate a truth worth dying for. All post Roman Fallen Angel theologyRobert will stand with our Seventh Day keeping pioneers of the reformation. The bases of our differences 1- (From Wikipedia) Sola scripturaSola scriptura, meaning by scripture alone, is a Christian theological doctrine YES – this is Robert’s demand – if it is not in the Torah it is not true or real This is exactly what the Inquisition said to Galileo – if he saw moons around Jupiter they must have been in his telescope (1609) I didn’t realize there was a technical term for a larger view of reality - Prima scripturaSola scriptura may be contrasted with prima scriptura, which holds that, besides canonical scripture, there are other guides for what a believer should believe, and how he or she should live. Examples of this include the general revelation in creation, traditions, charismatic gifts, mystical insight, angelic visitations, conscience, common sense, the views of experts, the spirit of the times or something else. Prima scriptura suggests that ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures. Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork. Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Prima scriptura – is Gnosticism – Things only happened one way – and all thing point to that Creator Does not matter the scale – galactic or sub-atomic – the Intelligent Design validates the Intelligent Designer2- Dominate Mainstream Christendom = Calvinism – as my traditional Presbyterian background Dispensation – to everything there is a time – an Age for this- followed by an Age for that Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season and a time for every activity under heaven: Ecc 3:2 a time to give birth and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted; Ecc 3:3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build up; Ecc 3:4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance; Ecc 3:5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather stones, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing; Ecc 3:6 a time to seek and a time to lose, a time to keep and a time to discard; Ecc 3:7 a time to tear apart and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak; Ecc 3:8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. Dispensationalist at extreme say – this verse belongs to this age and that verses belongs to a different age Predestination – we are all / many of us are / some of us are predestined for either tov or ra Basically – God can reach down and USE any one He wants for anything he wants to facilitate God’s Will on earth – (Abraham – Joseph – Moses – Joshua – David – Solomon ----Judas – who raises up the Chaldeans at the end?) The SDA are originally Lutheran theology based – it is all Free WillNot sure what they teach of dispensation if at all – Robert plucks verses out from anywhere and applies they wherever he needs them – context or not D""Amalgamation of Man and Beast": How can this be a reference to man on man – as you claim - he says man on beast R" I think it's a reference to Genetically modified humans. We have reached this stage now, 20 years ago I didn't have a clue to what she was referring to.I read the passage – where is your reference?Why do you have to invent a man-made justification to twist scripture to fit your doctrine? OK – your comments have ranged from – the son sons of Seth – to aliens from other planets created before creation – and now to GMOsQuestion – who did the genetic manipulation? 2nd Question – how did these GMO bane elohiym get into heaven to present themselves to God D"Cause of Some Volcanic Eruptions/Earthquakes: One of the causes of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes is said to be the presence of oil and coal burning below the surface of the earth. [3SG 79, 80] Ooops! – I guess she should have stopped before she just starts making up crapR" Can't find that reference, but here is some other writings that help:-(1885) Subterranean Fires Burning—These mountains to me are significant. Subterranean fires, although concealed in them, are burning. When the wicked shall have filled their cup of iniquity then the Lord will rise out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. Why do you pretend you cannot find the source – especially when the sources is footnotedWhy do you refuse to address issues head on and honestly? Instead of discussing Ellen White’s words – you post something different to discussInstead of discussing Gnostic James or John – you spent a year talking about Simon Magnus (google search for ) [3SG 79, 80]Spiritual Gifts. Volume 3, Ellen G. White, 1864Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times larger than any trees which we now see. They were of great durability. They would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. At the time of the flood these forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some places large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. This coal has produced oil. God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes and fiery issues. The action of fire and water upon the ledges of rocks and ore, causes loud explosions which sound like muffled thunder. These wonderful exhibitions will be more numerous and terrible just before the coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction. Coal and oil are generally to be found where there are no burning mountains or fiery issues. When fire and water under the surface of the earth meet, the fiery issues cannot give sufficient vent to the heated elements beneath. The earth is convulsed—the ground trembles, heaves, and rises into swells or waves, and there are heavy sounds like thunder underground. The air is heated and suffocating. The earth quickly opens, and I saw villages, cities and burning mountains carried down together into the earth. God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. A prophet is limited to their words and experience, For example what is this ? Na 2:4 Seem like motor cars to me?How is this a defense for Ellen Whites scientific observations?1- They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE - petrified wood never becomes coal Coal beds pre-date petrified wood 2- This coal has produced oil. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE – true you can make a hydrocarbon fuel from coal – coal gas – Hitler fueled his country with it - But oil and coal are made by two different processes 3- . God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSEBoth earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of Whole Earth Decompression Both earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of harmonic balance and plate tectonics 4- God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR GOD OF TOV ONLY - does no ra?5- Leprosy From Eating Pork: Pork was forbidden to the Israelites by God because it caused "scrofula" (TB of lymph glands, espec. the neck), "especially in that warm climate" of the Sinai desert. Also, "swine's flesh above all other flesh-meats, produces a bad state of the blood," affects the mind, "and the finer sensibilities are blunted" by its use. (4SGa 146, 1863, in 2SM 417) Ooops! – I guess she should have stopped before she just starts making up crap This is a true statement – very rarelySo I admit there is a hint of trurth hereThe reason Jews were to stay away from Pork – the 99.99% of the other parasites that pigs carry Lev 11:7 The pig, though it has a split, divided hoof, does not chew cud, so it is unclean to you. Generally, any animal that eats other animals, whether they kill their food or eat carrion, - Lev 13-31 Or carrion animals that eat carrion - Exo 22:30-31 Pigs fail both requirements Pigs are also the sacrificial offering to Tammuz – because he was killed bu a wild bore at age 40 Weep for Tammuz 40 days – Ezk 8 = Abomination
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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2022 12:44:28 GMT -5
6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?
EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).
BIBLE: NO "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20).
Dave adds Eph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
Mat 25:34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Scripture does not support Ellen White
7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN?
EGW: NO "The angels had cautioned Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labor in the garden; with him she would be in less temptation than if she were alone. But absorbed in her pleasing task, she unconsciously wandered from his side. On perceiving that she was alone, she felt an apprehension of danger. ... She soon found herself gazing with mingled curiosity and admiration upon the forbidden tree" (Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 53, 54).
BIBLE: YES "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it" (Genesis 3:6).
Apologist: This is an argument over semantics, insisting that "with her" (KJV, NASB, RSV, Amp & Darby versions, among others, do not include the words "who was" [with her]) means that he had been with her during her entire walk to the Tree and conversation with the serpent.
Gen 3:6 καὶ εἶδεν ἡ γυνὴ ὅτι καλὸν τὸ ξύλον εἰς βρῶσιν καὶ ὅτι ἀρεστὸν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἰδεῖν καὶ ὡραῖόν ἐστιν τοῦ κατανοῆσαι, καὶ λαβοῦσα τοῦ καρποῦ αὐτοῦ ἔφαγεν· καὶ ἔδωκεν καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον.
καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον. And - to – man – of hers – with – her – she supplied And to her man with her she supplied And to her man with her she gave
ἀνδρὶ - G435 - ἀνήρ - A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir. μετ᾿ - G3326 – μετά – meta - A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment;
The Greek (LXX) does not support Ellen White Scripture does not support Ellen White
8. WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN?
EGW: YES "Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law" (Evangelism, p. 598).
BIBLE: NO "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (1 Timothy 2:14).
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
WAIT – just a minute ago Ellen White said that Adam was not even there – Eve was alone Robert also plays the same word game – it wasn’t Eve that fell – it wasn’t until Adam took the bite Roberts also admits that Eve lied first – but when the serpent deceived it was a sin of lie
This is just male centric / male dominate – chauvinist H120 – אָדָם - 'âdâm - From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.) Mankind – any man – every man – all men – including women of the same species
THE POINT - The Right hand is the Hand of male - instruction and salvation The Left hand - feminine - is the hand of mystery and judgment
If Ellen with is correct with #7 then #8 must be error If Ellen White is correct with #8 then #7 must be in error She contradicts herself as well as scripture
9. WHO PLUCKED THE FRUIT?
EGW: THE SERPENT “The serpent plucked the fruit of the forbidden tree and placed it in the hands of the half-reluctant Eve.” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 55).
EGW: EVE “Without a fear she (Eve) plucked and ate.” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 56).
BIBLE: EVE “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.” (Genesis 3:6).
Ellen White contradicts herself as well as scripture Scripture does not support Ellen White
10. WHO SPOKE TO CAIN?
EGW: ANGEL "Through an angel messenger the divine warning was conveyed: 'If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?'" (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 74).
BIBLE: LORD "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right will you not be accepted?' ... So Cain went out from the Lord's presence" (Genesis 4:6, 7, 10, 13, 15, 16).
Gen 4:6 (TLV) Then Adonai said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? Gen 4:6 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4:6 (YLT) And Jehovah saith unto Cain, 'Why hast thou displeasure? and why hath thy countenance fallen? Gen 4:6 (LXX) καὶ εἶπεν κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῷ Καιν Ἵνα τί περίλυπος ἐγένου, καὶ ἵνα τί συνέπεσεν τὸ πρόσωπόν σου;
Gen 4:6 (HOT) ויאמר יהוה אל קין למה חרה לך ולמה נפלו פניך׃H H3068 – יְהֹוָה - yehôvâh - (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:
Gen 4:6 WHM וַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־קָ֑יִן לָ֚מָּה חָ֣רָה לָ֔ךְ וְלָ֖מָּה נָפְל֥וּ פָנֶֽיךָ׃ H3068 יְהוָה Yhvah (yeh-vaw') - 1. (meaning) the self-Existent or Eternal, the I AM.
Scripture does not support Ellen White
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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2022 16:24:12 GMT -5
D"1- They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE - petrified wood never becomes coal Coal beds pre-date petrified wood R" Hmm? Are you saying coal does not come from wood, or just petrified wood? Coal certainly does come from wood... (happened during the one time event, known as the great Noahan Flood) What about the coal layer?video Why almost all coal was made at the same time Dillon asks " Why almost all coal was made at the same time?I will get back to you on this video Dillon. Coal was formed sometime before Day 5 of creation The Flood of Noah was on Day 7D"2- This coal has produced oil. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE – R" Can this be tested? Does squeezing fresh trees and wood together make oil from the material, under pressure?Absolutely – oil is not a fossil fuel – many oil wells are deep under the ocean floor – no fossils there – no coal there Hydrocarbon percolated upward through the mantel to be trapped under the crust and cook into oil that continues to percolate upward through the crust to pool in pockets. This is an ongoing process – oil wells emptied in the 1940s are pumping again because they refilled with new oil
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Post by Dave on Feb 21, 2022 12:51:10 GMT -5
D" Are you willing to admit that you are unwilling to look at the discussion - honestly?R" I could say that about you? spiritualsprings.org/ss-1061.htmA study of mine proving that EGW is a Hebrew BIble translator or expounder, same idea? But you haven't looked at my study, only critics of the writings of Ellen White, based on spurious theories of the past. Science cannot evaluate the past very well, but science can evaluate the present, the actual writings of words Ellen White wrote. Hence I study this. D" Am I am looking at the 55 times she is accused of contradicting scripture I agree – some of it is spurious Some of it is to outrageous to ignoreR" Post one of her errors Dave and we will discuss. Just one. In the balance of probabilities, if one error is overturned, than all the others can be as well. Prophets are prophetic for a reason. Not all prophetic messages are easily understood. OK Robert here we are – waitingHere is the issue I wish you to make clear1- You run around claiming Torah only 2- Yet – you add the words of your own prophet Ellen White to the Torah 3- YES – Ellen White contradicts the Torah and herself 4- I add the words of a text that begins = “And it happened one day, when John, the brother of James - who are the sons of Zebedee - had come up to the temple, …” - and you claim the disciples of Jesus Christ never spoke to Jesus – or didn’t know what was said 5- I add the words of James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas - and you claim the disciples of Jesus Christ never spoke to Jesus – or didn’t know what was said You offer Ellen White that changes the Torah – contradicts Torah I offer the words of the disciples of Jesus Christ – men who walked and talked with Jesus Christ both before and after the resurrection – that never contradict the Torah or the agl – only supplements Just what type of double standard is this? The disciples validate that Jesus Christ was God incarnate – 100% Trinity Ellen white denies scripture Ellen White teaches that Divinity died The disciples validate life after death and the souljourn of the spirit Ellen White teaches the grave and no spirit The disciples validate the Beast of revelation – that ancient serpent – satans seed – devils and satanas Ellen White is 100% Catholic Fallen Angels with a satanic god of evil The disciples validate the Contest of Gen 3:15 between man and WORLD and man and archon (Eph 6) Ellen White teaches the Great Controversy – an eternal struggle between two gods in heaven OK Robert here we are – waiting Here is the issue I wish you to make clearWhy do the words of a wife of an elder of a failed prophesy group supersede scripture But the disciples who wrote the agl/NT are all questionable Gnostic men and heathens.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2022 15:05:01 GMT -5
You have quite a list here Dave, where do we begin? whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-contradictions-html/Index to the 53 False Charges: 1. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL? 2. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN? 3. WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN? 4. WHO SPOKE TO CAIN? 5. DID PRE-FLOOD HUMANS MATE WITH ANIMALS AND GIVE BIRTH TO NEW SUB-HUMAN SPECIES AND RACES? 6. DID GOD OR AN ANGEL SHUT THE DOOR OF NOAH'S ARK? 7. WAS THE TOWER OF BABEL BUILT BEFORE THE FLOOD? 8. WAS THE TOWER OF BABEL BUILT TO ESCAPE ANOTHER FLOOD? 9. WAS MOSES' WIFE ZIPPORAH, A "CUSHITE?" 10. WERE THE ISRAELITES DESTROYED BY GLUTTONY? 11. DID GOD SEND RAVENS TO FEED ELIJAH? 12. DID SAMSON DISOBEY GOD WHEN HE MARRIED A PHILISTINE? 13. DID THE HIGH PRIEST CARRY THE BLOOD OF SACRIFICED ANIMALS INTO THE HOLY PLACE EACH DAY? 14. DID CHRIST RESEMBLE OTHER CHILDREN? 15. WAS THE MAN JESUS CHRIST ALSO TRULY GOD? 16. WHILE TEMPTING JESUS, DID SATAN CLAIM TO BE THE ANGEL WHO HAD SAVED ISAAC FROM CERTAIN DEATH? 17. WHO CHOSE JUDAS TO BE ONE OF JESUS' TWELVE DISCIPLES? 18. DID DOGS EAT JUDAS' REMAINS? 19. DID HEROD PLACE A TATTERED ROBE ON JESUS? 20. DID JESUS FAINT THREE TIMES UNDER THE CROSS? 21. DID SATAN TEMPT CHRIST AFTER HE FASTED FORTY DAYS? 22. WAS MARY LED AWAY FROM THE SCENE AND JESUS' BONES BROKEN DURING HIS CRUCIFIXION? 23. DID JESUS' HUMANITY AND DIVINITY DIE ON THE CROSS? 24. DID JESUS DIE TO GIVE US A SECOND PROBATION? 25. WAS THE ATONEMENT FOR SIN COMPLETED AT THE CR0SS? 26. DOES THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CANCEL SIN? 27. ARE CONFESSED SINS TRANSFERRED TO THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST? 28. WHO BEARS OUR SINS? 29. DOES GOD REQUIRE A TRESPASS OFFERING BEFORE HE PARDONS US? 30. CAN WE SAY WE ARE SAVED RIGHT NOW BY CHRIST'S GRACE? 31. CAN THE FAITH OF BELIEVING PARENTS SAVE THEIR CHILDREN? 32. WILL THE SINS OF THE SLAVE BE TRANSFERRED TO THE SLAVE MASTER? 33. CAN IGNORANT SLAVES BE SAVED? 34. CAN WE LEGITIMATELY SAY "I HAVE CEASED TO SIN"? 35. WILL OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS EARN ME GOD'S FAVOR? 36. DOES OUR OBEDIENCE AND FAITH RECONCILE US TO GOD? 37. AS A CHRISTIAN DO I STILL STAND CONDEMNED BEFORE GOD? 38. MUST I BE PERFECT BEFORE CHRIST WILL ACCEPT ME? 39. DID JESUS ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY TEMPLE BEFORE OCTOBER 22, 1844? 40. ARE THE FORGIVEN SINS OF THE SAINTS NOT BLOTTED OUT UNTIL THE GREAT DAY OF FINAL AWARD? 41. DID PAUL LEARN THE GOSPEL FROM MEN IN THE CHURCH? 42. WHAT IS "THE SEAL OF GOD"? 43. ARE WE REQUIRED TO KNEEL EVERY TIME WE PRAY? 44. WILL PEOPLE BE LOST BECAUSE THEIR PASTOR IS UNTIDY? 45. IS IT A SIN TO BE SICK? 46. WILL GOD PREVENT THE WICKED FROM KILLING HIS PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO RECEIVE THE MARK OF THE BEAST? 47. DO THE WICKED TRY TO REPENT AS THEY EXPERIENCE THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES? 48. CAN SATAN ANSWER PRAYERS DIRECTED TO GOD? 49. WILL WE KNOW THE EXACT DAY AND HOUR OF CHRIST'S SECOND COMING? 50. DOES JESUS RETURN TO EARTH AT THE STROKE OF MIDNIGHT? 51. WILL THE SAVED HAVE WINGS IN THE RESURRECTION? 52. COULD JESUS SEE THROUGH THE PORTALS OF THE TOMB? 53. DID ENOCH THINK TO SAVE SODOM? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 21, 2022 15:19:44 GMT -5
You have quite a list here Dave, where do we begin? DUH MORE ROBERT NONSENSEOK Robert here we are – waiting Here is the issue I wish you to make clearWhy do the words of a wife of an elder of a failed prophesy group supersede scripture But the disciples who wrote the agl/NT are all questionable Gnostic men and heathens. Questions 1-3 are all about Dillons video on coal Question 5 – I gave her credit for – did you miss that? Questions 6-9 are very troublesome AND TO AVOIDMORE ROBERT NONSENSE – such honesty – so academic –I asked you a direct question AYou responded with B and answered B – and think your slickAvoid the direct question – refuse to take a stand - always change the question – alter the statement – misrepresent it into something you want to answer I am speaking about the questions on this thread to you – not some other list you presented6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL? 7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN? 8. WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN? 9. WHO PLUCKED THE FRUIT?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2022 15:36:06 GMT -5
D"The authors of my Gnostic writing are James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas – men who actually walked and talked with Jesus Christ both before and after the resurrection The very same authors of the agl/NT R" you write one author of GNosis was Paul, but in 1 Timothy 6:20 Paul says to avoid Gnosis? So what are you playing around with here Dave? Where is your evidence? How do you not know these writings were published and had deceptions labelled on them, as if made by certain men?
D"Sola scriptura may be contrasted with prima scriptura, which holds that, besides canonical scripture, there are other guides for what a believer should believe, and how he or she should live. Examples of this include the general revelation in creation, traditions, charismatic gifts, mystical insight, angelic visitations, conscience, common sense, the views of experts, the spirit of the times or something else. Prima scriptura suggests that ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures R" Yes you use GNostic + Scripture = a prima scriptura supporter.
I follow sola Scriptura, EGW is just a Hebrew English translator, and helps us to read the Hebrew better in English.
The fact you avoid Ezekiel 28 on cherubs that sin, tells me you do not listen to the sola scriptora.
D"NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE - petrified wood never becomes coal Coal beds pre-date petrified wood R" What? Are you saying the Flood did not make wood into coal, some was made in petrified wood some into coal, some tree trucks have both petrified wood and coal along the truck length.
Where I live in Australia we have tree trunks upside down with coal in them. Some got to be turned into coal and some were not transformed.
D"NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE – true you can make a hydrocarbon fuel from coal – coal gas – Hitler fueled his country with it - But oil and coal are made by two different processes R" Your assumption. Has anybody tested this idea?
D"This is a true statement – very rarely So I admit there is a hint of trurth here R" Yes stay away from scavengers....
Dave comments on "EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347). D"Scripture does not support Ellen White R" OK you are introducing too many themes, too much confusion, to waste time arguing.
I said discuss one theme, and one theme only.
D"Coal was formed sometime before Day 5 of creation The Flood of Noah was on Day 7
R" DId you write this Dave? Please explain, because I see this as a goof?
D"Absolutely – oil is not a fossil fuel – many oil wells are deep under the ocean floor – no fossils there – no coal there R" Maybe not all oil comes from plant material. Maybe coal does exist under the ocean?
D"Why do the words of a wife of an elder of a failed prophesy group supersede scripture R" Because science has tested her as a prophet, while she was alive....and in vision, she never breathed but spoke without breathing water vapor.
And her writings are inspired, as we have studied them.... Yes I have studied them as no SDA has, using studies of tsuwr and cela rocks to name a few, but you ignore my studies too? Do Jews understand the Father in heaven as a simile of tsuwr rock?
D"But the disciples who wrote the agl/NT are all questionable Gnostic men and heathens. R" How can science test the past writings we assume to be of the apostles? They appear to be deceptions because they do not align with the Moses torah.
D"I am speaking about the questions on this thread to you – not some other list you presented R" OK than list and discuss ONE theme only. It would only take ONE error to bring all the messages EGW received from GOD, to become uninspired. Choose your best error you think of as error and lets discuss that, make your questions very specific.
For example, I asked Jews where did the shedim come from? All I got was a legend about Adam being alone from Eve for 100+ years and having sex with strange creatures, blah blah.... weird stuff, not in the torah account.
IN the torah, it explains where shedim come from, but you ignore this....
I also asked you for a scholar study of satan and satanas, as different words, yes one is Hebrew and one is Greek, but if the Greek is a translation of the Hebrew, than the satanas must refer to the Hebrew satan. But you ignore this idea completely and make the Greek refer to the Hebrew idea of shedim. This is word play on your part and completely off track. ANd you wonder why I avoid Gnostic thinking. Paul told us to In 1 tim 6:20
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 22, 2022 18:24:47 GMT -5
Now I have discussed the passage in question. Yes some parts Science may disagree with. I read things like this way back in 1980. I AGREE 1- she does not agree with science – scripture does She does not agree with science because she goes too far – while scripture is less specific 2- She goes too far – with period dated information Meaning – her information is only relative to her timeExample – her scientific views are very 19th century centric WIGS (ARTIFICIAL HAIR PIECES) COSMETIC POISONING WASP-WAIST CORSETS AND PHYSICAL TRANSMISSION PROBLEMS A LITERAL "MIASMA" DANGERS FROM EATING OF CHEESE All of her comments on these topics are all period dated – what she said was true in 1880s - and relevant to the 1880sThis does not validate Ellen White as a Prophet of God that has corrective teaching for the Torah This does not validate that Ellen White is consistent with the TorahNow to some evidence EGW may not write word meanings correctly, I am honest with you, when I studied how she writes the English with Jeff Benner Ancient Hebrew meanings. Q6: Does Ellen White follow Ancient Hebrew?What is your point?Caesar’s Messiah is 100% consistent with the agl/NT It never contradicts the ahl/OT Does this mean we should let it change the Torah for us?I WILL ALSO AGREE that many of the criticisms are Gnostic in natureDid God do a thing – or did God accomplish His task via an angel Example - DID GOD OR AN ANGEL SHUT THE DOOR OF NOAH'S ARK?------------ Ellen White - Prophet or Error?D"The authors of my Gnostic writing are James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas – men who actually walked and talked with Jesus Christ both before and after the resurrection The very same authors of the agl/NT R" you write one author of GNosis was Paul, but in 1 Timothy 6:20 Paul says to avoid Gnosis? So what are you playing around with here Dave? Where is your evidence? How do you not know these writings were published and had deceptions labelled on them, as if made by certain men? YES – Paul wrote 85% of the agl/NT Paul also wore - The Prayer of the Apostle Paul Paul also wrote - The Apocalypse (Revelation) of Paul = AKA 3rd Epistle to Corinth – where Paul speak of his his adventure in heaven2Co 12:2 I know a man in Messiah (whether in the body I don’t know, or whether out of the body I don’t know—God knows)—fourteen years ago, he was caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows)— 2Co 12:4 he was caught up into Paradise and heard words too sacred to tell, which a human is not permitted to utter. YES – Paul wrote 85% of the agl/NT And Rome says he also wrote Gnostic heresy – please explain this to meJames, John, Paul, Peter, all contributed to the agl/NT And Rome says they also wrote Gnostic heresy – please explain this to meD" Sola scriptura may be contrasted with prima scriptura, I follow sola Scriptura, EGW is just a Hebrew English translator, and helps us to read the Hebrew better in English But the question to you – is Ellen White a Prophet from God that speaks truth – or does she contradict scripture?R" Yes you use Gnostic + Scripture = a prima scriptura supporter. Absolutely Correct – Roman’s 1:19 + Psa 1:2 – all creation testifies to the One True CreatorD"NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE - petrified wood never becomes coal Coal beds pre-date petrified wood R" What? Are you saying the Flood did not make wood into coal, some was made in petrified wood some into coal, some tree trucks have both petrified wood and coal along the truck length.19th century science The flood of Noah did create petrified wood – there is much evidence of this I have been to and through the Petrified Forest many times The Flood of Noah did not create coal – coal predates the flood by 3 Biblical Days D"Coal was formed sometime before Day 5 of creation The Flood of Noah was on Day 7 R" DId you write this Dave? Please explain, because I see this as a goof? Both discussion of Question #1 Petrified Wood becoming oil and Question #2 coal turning into oil were addressed by Dillions video – Nov 2021 you comments are 4 months lateWhat about the coal layer?Video Why almost all coal was made at the same time D"NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE – true you can make a hydrocarbon fuel from coal – coal gas – Hitler fueled his country with it - But oil and coal are made by two different processes R" Your assumption. Has anybody tested this idea?Your command of common knowledge is lackingDave comments on "EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347). D"Scripture does not support Ellen White R" OK you are introducing too many themes, too much confusion, to waste time arguing.
I said discuss one theme, and one theme only.Bull Shit – each discussion is clearly numbered #1, #2, #3, etc – just so you can keep trackWhy does your prophet disagree with scripture? If she disagrees with scripture then – is she truthful – is she from God Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 28:10 For it must be ‘precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.’ D"Why do the words of a wife of an elder of a failed prophesy group supersede scripture R" Because science has tested her as a prophetSorry Robert – her science is 19th century at best – does not stand the test of time While - the science within scripture has always been mocked – until it is proven correct more and more by modern science And her writings are inspired, as we have studied them.... If this is true – why does she contradict scripture?D"I am speaking about the questions on this thread to you – not some other list you presented R" OK than list and discuss ONE theme only. It would only take ONE error to bring all the messages EGW received from GOD, to become uninspired. Listed as asked – numbered as asked #1, #2, #3. Etc so you wonlt be confused Choose your best error you think of as error and lets discuss that, make your questions very specific.
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Post by Dave on Feb 22, 2022 22:12:35 GMT -5
6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347). BIBLE: NO "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20). Dave addsEph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, Mat 25:34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world; Scripture does not support Ellen White7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN?EGW: NO "The angels had cautioned Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labor in the garden; with him she would be in less temptation than if she were alone. But absorbed in her pleasing task, she unconsciously wandered from his side. On perceiving that she was alone, she felt an apprehension of danger. ... She soon found herself gazing with mingled curiosity and admiration upon the forbidden tree" (Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 53, 54). BIBLE: YES "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it" (Genesis 3:6). Apologist: This is an argument over semantics, insisting that "with her" (KJV, NASB, RSV, Amp & Darby versions, among others, do not include the words "who was" [with her]) means that he had been with her during her entire walk to the Tree and conversation with the serpent. Gen 3:6 καὶ εἶδεν ἡ γυνὴ ὅτι καλὸν τὸ ξύλον εἰς βρῶσιν καὶ ὅτι ἀρεστὸν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἰδεῖν καὶ ὡραῖόν ἐστιν τοῦ κατανοῆσαι, καὶ λαβοῦσα τοῦ καρποῦ αὐτοῦ ἔφαγεν· καὶ ἔδωκεν καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον. καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον. And - to – man – of hers – with – her – she supplied And to her man with her she supplied And to her man with her she gave ἀνδρὶ - G435 - ἀνήρ - A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir. μετ᾿ - G3326 – μετά – meta - A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment;The Greek (LXX) does not support Ellen White Scripture does not support Ellen White 8. WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN?EGW: YES "Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law" (Evangelism, p. 598). BIBLE: NO "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (1 Timothy 2:14). 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. WAIT – just a minute ago Ellen White said that Adam was not even there – Eve was aloneRobert also plays the same word game – it wasn’t Eve that fell – it wasn’t until Adam took the bite Roberts also admits that Eve lied first – but when the serpent deceived it was a sin of lie This is just male centric / male dominate – chauvinist H120 – אָדָם - 'âdâm - From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.) Mankind – any man – every man – all men – including women of the same species THE POINT - The Right hand is the Hand of male - instruction and salvation The Left hand - feminine - is the hand of mystery and judgmentIf Ellen with is correct with #7 then #8 must be error If Ellen White is correct with #8 then #7 must be in errorShe contradicts herself as well as scripture9. WHO PLUCKED THE FRUIT? EGW: THE SERPENT “The serpent plucked the fruit of the forbidden tree and placed it in the hands of the half-reluctant Eve.” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 55). EGW: EVE “Without a fear she (Eve) plucked and ate.” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 56). BIBLE: EVE “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.” (Genesis 3:6). Ellen White contradicts herself as well as scriptureScripture does not support Ellen White
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2022 5:08:08 GMT -5
OK Dave, I will choose one theme for you and we will discuss it thoroughly and this theme only.
Dave posts "
6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?
EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).
BIBLE: NO "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20).
Dave adds Eph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
Mat 25:34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Scripture does not support Ellen White
R" Rather than just say "Scripture does not support Ellen White" explain your view?
I imagine since God is all knowing, the provision for sinning was made as soon as the great uncaused cause came to be.
However once the sinless humans began to sin, God held a meeting with His Son and the Son agreed to lay his life for the mischief, caused by the mischief maker.
Hence the plan of salvation was unfolded to Adam after He fell.
Now explain to me, how there is an error here? Both writings are seeing salvation from two different viewpoints.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 23, 2022 5:20:21 GMT -5
R" Rather than just say "Scripture does not support Ellen White" explain your view?
Scripture clearly says – it was God’s Plan – God’s Will from the beginning As in God is Absolute and in control
Ellen White controdicts scripture! She says God had to change His plan because creation went out of His control Therefore God lost control to another force and is not absolute
However once the sinless humans began to sin, God held a meeting with His Son The only scripture to support this comes from Joseph Smith - "The Other Testamaent of Jesus Christ" Again the similuarities between SDA and Mormons is interesting since they both appear at the same time.
NEXT!
7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2022 5:38:46 GMT -5
D" 7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN?
How would we know either way when Scripture lacks specific detail?
EGW gives more detail, than Scripture does.
I suspect Adam was nearby, but not close enough to hear the serpent speak to the woman.
DOn't forget, a recording angel and visions told EGW what to write, she never writes her own views, she only writes what God moves her to write, or directly tells her to write.
How do we know which spirit moved her or if the god was the true or false god, ? Easy....by her fruits we test the prophet, also by the messages align with Moses torah.
I found rather than seek why EGW has more or less info than Scripture, look for errors in the words themselves she wrote, for example do they align with Hebrew?
This makes the case for inspiration more testable.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 23, 2022 6:04:41 GMT -5
7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN? How would we know either way when Scripture lacks specific detail?Most of us believe scripture – why don’t you?Gen 3:6 Now the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a thing of lust for the eyes, and that the tree was desirable for imparting wisdom. So she took of its fruit and she ate. She also gave to her husband who was with her and he ate. EGW gives more detail, than Scripture does. And her detail contradicts scriptureHow do we know which spirit moved her or if the god was the true or false god, ? Easy....by her fruits we test the prophet, also by the messages align with Moses torah. Then why does she teach that Christ cannot be God? Then why does she teach that God died Then why does she teach man has no spirit Then why does she teach there is no First Fruits only the grave Then why does she teach no such thing as baptism of the Spirit Then why does she teach you can fall from God’s Grace as the angels do Then why does she teach there are two gods lock in a Great Controversy in heaven Then why does she teach daily rituals to maintain your saslvation? by her fruits we test the prophetThen why does she preach against spiritual ChristianityI found rather than seek why EGW has more or less info than Scripture, look for errors in the words themselves she wrote, for example do they align with Hebrew? This makes the case for inspiration more testable.OH – but to apply that same logic to the authors of the agl James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, or Thomas is absolute heresy TALK ABOUT A DOUBLE STANDARDIsa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 28:10 For it must be ‘precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.’ You have made absolute standards for everyone elseEither Ellen White is truthful and supports the Torah - or she does NOTWhy do you and Ellen White preach against the agl/NT and it authors? In favor of a two god system that elevates your Hebrew satan to godhood?YES - I have two gods and two kings - whats wrong with that? NEXT!
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Post by Dave on Feb 23, 2022 14:36:47 GMT -5
Robert does not understand why Eve is at fault – it is all about the male Adam
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one (human being- feminine Eve) and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all (humanity) because all sinned.
(Rom 5:19) For just as through the disobedience of one , (human being- feminine Eve) many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man,(Jesus Christ) many will be set right forever.
Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, - (human being- feminine Eve)
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman (human being- feminine Eve) being deceived was in the transgression.
POINT – the teaching – the precept – the concept – the idea The Right hand is the Hand of male - instruction and salvation The Left hand - feminine - is the hand of mystery and judgment
The Right Hand is the Hand of male - instruction and salvation = Christ The Left Hand - feminine - is the hand of mystery and judgment = Holy Spirit Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them.
Who said – let there be – and creation happened – male – God the Father / Christ – the Right Hand Where did the Beast just appear from – the Left Hand – the hand of mystery and judgment
Robert does not understand why Eve is of the Left hand – it is all about the male Adam (Right Hand)
E= mc2 E = Right Hand + Left hand Father = Right Hand + Left hand God = Christ + Holy Spirit
Father = Right Hand + Left hand Two sides of the same Coin – Heads + Tails
For going on 3 yrs now you have argued against the authors of the agl/NT – James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas - only because Rome called them Gnostic
Let’s look at one of you biggest criticisms
The Hypostasis of the Archons (The Reality of the Rulers) - The Nag Hammadi Library On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle – referring to the "authorities of the darkness" – told us that "our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities (archon) of the universe and the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you inquire about the reality of the authorities.
Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, "god of the blind."
His thoughts became blind. And, having expelled his power – that is, the blasphemy he had spoken – he pursued it down to chaos and the abyss, his mother, at the instigation of Pistis Sophia. And she established each of his offspring in conformity with its power - after the pattern of the realms that are above, for by starting from the invisible world the visible world was invented.
1- This document is 100% about Paul’s letter to the Ephesians
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers (archon), against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
2- This “First Archon” has offspring –
3- This process takes place when? - - after the pattern of the realms that are above, for by starting from the invisible world the visible world was invented. - after the pattern of the realms that are above, - Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens …
for by starting from the invisible world the visible world was invented. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created … the earth Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep,
"Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness.
This ruler, by being androgynous, made himself a vast realm, an extent without limit. And he contemplated creating offspring for himself, and created for himself seven offspring, androgynous just like their parent.
Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and satanas, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (messengers – satan’s seed – bane elohiym – archon) were cast out with him.
The archon are the ‘other gods’ that deceive the whole world The archon are the serpent gods of India, the Levant, South/North America, and even Australia Aborigine + all of the 99%
The bane elohiym – offspring of the Beast – took on human form in Gen 6 Gen 6 Nephilim are real Post-Flood Rephiem are real Non-terrestrial beings (Aliens) do in fact visit this world Intra-dimensional beings do in fact visit this world/dimension
Just outside our field of vision – are entities that are anything but human – that have been manipulating this world from the outside for eons – David Ike
These entities can possess / work through – certain humans - because there is a genetic link – Nephilim – Rephiem – ancient priest/kings acting as the interface between gods and man Modern day 13 families that rule the world – Illuminati – Freemason – Bilderbergs – shadow government – etc
Robert – please tell us how this First century Messianic Jewish Commentary contradicts scripture
Robert has traditionally always has had 2 issues with this passage 1- The Holy Spirit cannot create according to Robert
Rebuttal – TRINITY – there is only One True God - One true Creator
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Some things were created by the Right Hand and some by the Left Hand
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
100% Jewish theology – 100% agreement with the Apocalypse of Gnostic John
2- does not support Hebrew satan as the god of evil Rebuttal = DUH
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2022 15:56:30 GMT -5
D"Gen 3:6 Now the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a thing of lust for the eyes, and that the tree was desirable for imparting wisdom. So she took of its fruit and she ate. She also gave to her husband who was with her and he ate R" Doesn't say Adam was with Eve all the time, Also the serpent spoke to Eve, not Adam first. In Hebrew culture it is a sin to speak to the woman of the home before your Master/Lord. So obviously Adam was not there when the Serpent spoke to Eve, she was separated from Adam.
In Hebrew there is a word Jeff Benner explains very well. Separated from the home, but not alone.
De 32:4 He is the Rock <tsuwr>, De 32:11 As an eagle <nesher> stirreth up <`uwr> her nest <qen> De 32:12 So the LORD <Y@hovah> alone <badad> did lead <nachah> him,
Jeff Explains that "badad" does not mean the YHWH-Jesus was alone from the Father and the HS when leading Israel here, only separated from them say in a different part of the family home.
In your view seeing you have only One Strong Authority, you say the tsuwr rock and cela rock are similes of the same GOD, as the eagle is also and the YHWH. If this is all so, why have so many similes for ONE Authority, including masculine and feminine. Your theory makes no sense, especially when it says Let us make mankind in our image. SO I suspect Eve was "badad" from Adam, separated but not alone. Hence both writings are correct.
D"Then why does she teach that Christ cannot be God? Then why does she teach that God died Then why does she teach man has no spirit Then why does she teach there is no First Fruits only the grave Then why does she teach no such thing as baptism of the Spirit Then why does she teach you can fall from God’s Grace as the angels do Then why does she teach there are two gods lock in a Great Controversy in heaven Then why does she teach daily rituals to maintain your saslvation?
R" too many themes Dave. What is you point here? to mock and ridicule? I do not mock and ridicule GNostic writings, only that they are not inspired as the Hebrew torah is. D"OH – but to apply that same logic to the authors of the agl James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, or Thomas is absolute heresy
TALK ABOUT A DOUBLE STANDARD R" OK than what pray tell is Paul speaking of here? In 1 Tim 6:20, to avoid gnosis?
D"In favor of a two god system that elevates your Hebrew satan to godhood? R" Facts you say yourself Dave, the Satanas is a demi god, are they not ?, rising to the standard of the Most High. yet somehow you say the Satanas archon shedim were created by God to tempt man to sin. I do not buy into that theory. SO what was this gnosis Paul told Timothy to avoid?
I will stick to the Moses torah, that we all know, and is perfectly preserved. You have to show me a scholar that the Greek word satanas is shedim and not satan in Hebrew. Still waiting.
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D"WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN?
EGW: YES "Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law" (Evangelism, p. 598).
BIBLE: NO "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (1 Timothy 2:14).
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
WAIT – just a minute ago Ellen White said that Adam was not even there – Eve was alone Robert also plays the same word game – it wasn’t Eve that fell – it wasn’t until Adam took the bite Roberts also admits that Eve lied first – but when the serpent deceived it was a sin of lie
This is just male centric / male dominate – chauvinist R" Adam was a prince and lord of the home, His kingdom is ruled by Him.
Nothing male dominate – chauvinist about this, this is Hebrew.
Dave quotes "EGW: YES "Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law" (Evangelism, p. 598)"
Rob quotes a fuller context" Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law. But Adam fell, and by his sin he opened the floodgates of woe upon our world. Again, Satan told Cain that he need not follow expressly the command of God in presenting the slain lamb as an offering. Cain obeyed the voice of the deceiver; and because God did not accept his offering, while He showed His approval of Abel's offering, Cain rose up in anger and slew his brother. " (Evangelism, p. 598)"
Sometimes you have to read the context Dave. Cain was not obeying God fully. So Cain was deceived by a lukewarm approach with God. Adam was deceived in this kind of approach.
Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
What does this say in Greek?
COmpare the two Greek words "paraptoma" and "apatao"
Notice what EGW does say:
I quote"
To the tempter's ensnaring question she replied: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
By partaking of this tree, he declared, they would attain to a more exalted sphere of existence and enter a broader field of knowledge. He himself had eaten of the forbidden fruit, and as a result had acquired the power of speech. And he insinuated that the Lord jealously desired to withhold it from them, lest they should be exalted to equality with Himself. It was because of its wonderful properties, imparting wisdom and power, that He had prohibited them from tasting or even touching it. The tempter intimated that the divine warning was not to be actually fulfilled; it was designed merely to intimidate them. How could it be possible for them to die? Had they not eaten of the tree of life? God had been seeking to prevent them from reaching a nobler development and finding greater happiness.
Such has been Satan's work from the days of Adam to the present, and he has pursued it with great success. He tempts men to distrust God's love and to doubt His wisdom. He is constantly seeking to excite a spirit of irreverent curiosity, a restless, inquisitive desire to penetrate the secrets of divine wisdom and power. In their efforts to search out what God has been pleased to withhold, multitudes overlook the truths which He has revealed, and which are essential to salvation. Satan tempts men to disobedience by leading them to believe they are entering a wonderful field of knowledge. But this is all a deception. Elated with their ideas of progression, they are, by trampling on God's requirements, setting their feet in the path that leads to degradation and death.
Satan represented to the holy pair that they would be gainers by breaking the law of God. Do we not today hear similar reasoning? Many talk of the narrowness of those who obey God's commandments, while they themselves claim to have broader ideas and to enjoy greater liberty. What is this but an echo of the voice from Eden, “In the day ye eat thereof”—transgress the divine requirement—“ye shall be as gods”? Satan claimed to have received great good by eating of the forbidden fruit, but he did not let it appear that by transgression he had become an outcast from heaven. Though he had found sin to result in infinite loss, he concealed his own misery in order to draw others into the same position. So now the transgressor seeks to disguise his true character; he may claim to be holy; but his exalted profession only makes him the more dangerous as a deceiver. He is on the side of Satan, trampling upon the law of God, and leading others to do the same, to their eternal ruin.
Eve really believed the words of Satan, but her belief did not save her from the penalty of sin. She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth. Notwithstanding the sophistry of Satan to the contrary, it is always disastrous to disobey God. We must set our hearts to know what is truth. All the lessons which God has caused to be placed on record in His word are for our warning and instruction. They are given to save us from deception. Their neglect will result in ruin to ourselves. Whatever contradicts God's word, we may be sure proceeds from Satan.
The serpent plucked the fruit of the forbidden tree and placed it in the hands of the half-reluctant Eve. Then he reminded her of her own words, that God had forbidden them to touch it, lest they die. She would receive no more harm from eating the fruit, he declared, than from touching it. Perceiving no evil results from what she had done, Eve grew bolder. When she “saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat.” It was grateful to the taste, and as she ate, she seemed to feel a vivifying power, and imagined herself entering upon a higher state of existence. Without a fear she plucked and ate. And now, having herself transgressed, she became the agent of Satan in working the ruin of her husband. In a state of strange, unnatural excitement, with her hands filled with the forbidden fruit, she sought his presence, and related all that had occurred.
An expression of sadness came over the face of Adam. He appeared astonished and alarmed. To the words of Eve he replied that this must be the foe against whom they had been warned; and by the divine sentence she must die. In answer she urged him to eat, repeating the words of the serpent, that they should not surely die. She reasoned that this must be true, for she felt no evidence of God's displeasure, but on the contrary realized a delicious, exhilarating influence, thrilling every faculty with new life, such, she imagined, as inspired the heavenly messengers.
Adam understood that his companion had transgressed the command of God, disregarded the only prohibition laid upon them as a test of their fidelity and love. There was a terrible struggle in his mind. He mourned that he had permitted Eve to wander from his side. But now the deed was done; he must be separated from her whose society had been his joy. How could he have it thus? Adam had enjoyed the companionship of God and of holy angels. He had looked upon the glory of the Creator. He understood the high destiny opened to the human race should they remain faithful to God. Yet all these blessings were lost sight of in the fear of losing that one gift which in his eyes outvalued every other. Love, gratitude, loyalty to the Creator—all were overborne by love to Eve. She was a part of himself, and he could not endure the thought of separation. He did not realize that the same Infinite Power who had from the dust of the earth created him, a living, beautiful form, and had in love given him a companion, could supply her place. He resolved to share her fate; if she must die, he would die with her. After all, he reasoned, might not the words of the wise serpent be true? Eve was before him, as beautiful and apparently as innocent as before this act of disobedience. She expressed greater love for him than before. No sign of death appeared in her, and he decided to brave the consequences. He seized the fruit and quickly ate.
After his transgression Adam at first imagined himself entering upon a higher state of existence. But soon the thought of his sin filled him with terror. The air, which had hitherto been of a mild and uniform temperature, seemed to chill the guilty pair. The love and peace which had been theirs was gone, and in its place they felt a sense of sin, a dread of the future, a nakedness of soul. The robe of light which had enshrouded them, now disappeared, and to supply its place they endeavored to fashion for themselves a covering; for they could not, while unclothed, meet the eye of God and holy angels.
They now began to see the true character of their sin. Adam reproached his companion for her folly in leaving his side and permitting herself to be deceived by the serpent; but they both flattered themselves that He who had given them so many evidences of His love, would pardon this one transgression, or that they would not be subjected to so dire a punishment as they had feared. " End quote
So Adam did not offend as Eve did, He decided to die with her, so his offence is as Scripture declares it.
SO both are correct, as the writings detail things from different angles.
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D" Robert does not understand why Eve is at fault – it is all about the male Adam
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one (human being- feminine Eve) and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all (humanity) because all sinned.
Rob: "In Hebrew the master of the home is masculine, and the transgressions flows through the masculine not the feminine.
D"Robert – please tell us how this First century Messianic Jewish Commentary contradicts scripture R" I already have and you acknowledge this.
D"1- The Holy Spirit cannot create according to Robert R" correct, a MEDIUM is just a passive conductor of energy within the medium and without the medium. Sure the Shadday might different, but not the ruwach.
Ruwach means medium, like wind, a process of carrying the energy from somewhere else.
Shalom
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