Judaism and Christianity on Satan: Rabbi Singer

[Dave]

Jewish satan as an obedient servant of God -vrs- a Christian Free Will villain

7:25 – Angels have no Free Will

8:40 – Hinduism – neo-monotheism. It has always been mon-thiestic with a Trinity of a god Head. Bahama the Creator, Shiva the Destroyer, and Vishnu who has came as a man twice to impart wisdom and knowledge. They say, their God is one – but has a multitude of faces and they are awaiting the Third coming.

8:50 – All Gnostics are pagan. Jews think Christians pagan – therefore Christian Gnostics = pagan to Jews. Gnostic literature is a compost if many txt from may cultures and much of it is totally pagan. I am a Gnostic Christian than embraces ahl first, agl second, and value of the Gnostic Gospels found within the Nag Hammadi Text, written by the same authors as the agl Canon

10:15 – Gnostic Christians were crushed by the Roman church
10:50 - Satan is NOT God’s enemy

10:50-13:10 – God created Evil (RA), and why God created the Contest

15:30 – Book of Job
16:30 – Satan obeys God

21:45 – you have never sin without make a – CHOICE

23:00 – Thank God for satan
26:25 – the archon help us forget the consequence of Sin
27:00 – 1 Chronicles 21:1 -vrs- I Samuael 24:1
28:00 - Isaiah 14 = Babylon
33:20 – Exk 28 = Tyre / USA?

[Dave]

Oct 17, 2019 22:27:50 GMT -5 Dave said:

Gnostic Archon = Christian Demons = Jewish Sheidim = Islamic Jinn

7:50 – Frankenstein
10:00 – Archon are not a DIRCECT product of creation – but a by-product of creation – a consequence of creation – Entropy
11:40 – Gnostics and Christian place the creation of the Archon in the Gap
13:15 – Archon are a by-product of creation – a product of something already made
14:00 – Entropy of Creation

14:30 – Lilith – 100% Jewish
3 theories of Lilith and her offspring with ‘The Adam’
Premise 1 = Adam – to the Jews means more than just Eve’s husband, Abraham was an Adam, Israel at Sinai was an Adam.
Premise 2 = Our reality is a reflection of heaven – God’s will on Earth, as in heaven.
Theory 1 – Gnostic - Adam in the Gap = creation + female Lilith = offspring = female –Archon – the by-product of creation – the resulting Entropy of the Negentropy / creation
Theory 2 – Jewish – Lilith may have been earthly Adam’s first wife that had offspring before Eve – but then they say, none of it was physical – it all happened in spirit form – and it all happened on day 6
Theory 3 – Christian – before Christ was ever born Judaism is pagan and all this is myth

17:50 – How did they come to be
18:30 – what is the Talmud
20:20 – Archon reproduce (100% Islamic Jinn)
20:40 – what do they look like? – The Christian view is from Dante’s Divine Comedy
23:25 – they can take any form – shapeshifters (100% Islamic Jinn)
24:00 – 32:55 – The life of a demon / Archon
They can fly, have the knowledge of angels, they can multiply, they can die, they eat (100% Islamic Jinn)
Islamic Jinn feed off of our fear – our negative energy we generate when we fear
24:56 – they are egocentric – only concerned with themselves – their own importance Gnostics say they are jealous of man because we have Free Will and they do not. Islam says, they are jealous of us because we took over earth from them. Christians just say they are hate.
26:45 – They exist where humans cannot – Jewish in the earth, in the air, in the first realm above us – Gnostic = Jewish + on the moon, in Saturn, in space – Islamic = Jewish + Gnostic + dark alleys, toilets, fortune tellers, grave yards – Christendom = either everywhere or locked away
33:00 – Lilith = Chief Archon?
43:55 – 52:15 - Asmodeus is the king of the demons. – different than satan. Gnostics simply say there are hierarchies among the Archon - (100% Islamic Jinn)
51:50 – Archon / demons are more spirit than physical - (100% Islamic Jinn)
53:00 – Jewish exorcism
53:45 – Are Archon / Demons Real?
54:00 – Where are they?
55:20 – Archon / Demons are associated with grave yards (100% Islamic Jinn)

55:55 – Angels
51:25 - 10 levels of angels - The Gnostic difference elohiym and bane elohiym

Gnostic view – 'el (singular) = Creator – Josh 22:22 God of gods – the 'el of elohiym pl = all heavenly host – The Trinity, angels, and archon
'el + 9 levels of elohiym – 8 levels of angelic elohiym + 1 level of Archon elohiym
Making the bane elohiym = offspring of the Archon elohiym – NOT angelic elohiym
Catholic view – Creator Father and Trinity + 9 levels of angels – the lowest level being called – powers and principalities (Archon)
Christian view – Trinity + angels – then the angles rose up against God and some of them changed species to be demons

58:00 – I LOVE this description of fire and elohiym
1:00:00 – What do angels look like – no form – can take on any form

1:07:00 Angel satan – obedient servany – The Prosecutor
1:08:30 – satan the Divine Prosecutor
1:09:20 – satan the tester

1:10:40 – Elijah
1:11:50 – Abraham 3 visitors – angels don’t eat, have sex, or mingle in this world in any way.

If angelic elohiym do not have sex - then they cannot be the bane elohiym of Gen 6 - However, Archon elohiym do have sex

1:13:26 – Jewish Joke
1:13:45 – Creating angels

1:15:00- Recap
1:15:20 – Why they exist
1:16:30 – Entropy of creation
1:17:30 – Tumah + Kedushah + CHOICE
1:18:20 – The parable of the King

[Dave]

I have great respect for Chuck Misler - his presentation of satan
1:09 - satan hinders
1:20 - satan wants to keep productivity down
2:30 - satan can only act with the permission of God - All Ra is father filtered
3:00 - Eph 6 is real and alive URGENT!
3:20 - The Gnostic Contest
3:50 - satan has convinced us that he doesn't exist - always operates by deception
4:30 - The Archon are real and active today

Not once does Chuck Missle mention Ezk 28 or Isa 14
Not once does he suggest that satan has Free Will
In fact, Missler says, satan can only act with God's permission (God's servant)
Missler does say - and makes the point - the Contest is alive - The archon are real and in your face - TODAY

[Dave]

0:26 - Demons are real entities (the archon offspring of the Chief Archon)
0:45 - Demon Spirits (Archon) = 'other gods' desiring worship
2:10 - only one devile (overseer) + many demnons (Archon)
satan has locality - but has a large staff
2:49 - awareness of our own inventiations to the Archon
3:10 - Possession
3:30 - Possession is not a 'mental health issue'
4:30 - Very real - very powerful - spirit realm
4:50 - Human history - validates the Reality of the Archon (David Ike, 13 Famlies)
5:30 - necromancing - fortune tellers - saiances
5:59 - they have angelic knowledge - they know Christ
6:08 - their destiny is sealed - No Fre Will
6:20 - Conspicquous participation in Global Governments (David Ike, 13 Families)
7:00 - Christendom being led by Archons (Coporate prayer in Sun day church, Christmas, and Easter)
8:00 - Achons alway operate by deception
8:45 - The Armor of Eph 6 - PRAYER
9:45 - Jewish exorcisms - always formal part of Judaism
11:05 - the Archons fate is sealed - NO FREE WILL
12:15 - the difference between the devil, satan, and demons
Archon leadership can manafest (bane elohiym)- while archon off spring seek embodment
The idea Missler uses to suggest demons are the disembodies spirits of the Nephilim = 100% Coptic = 100% Gnostic from the Book of Jubilees chpt 10 - and Book of Enoch chpt 15
12:45 - the Reality of the Rephiem

Not once does Missler ever say anything about Ezk 28 or Isa 14
Not once does Missler ever suggest satan has Free Will

[Dave]

Book of Jubilees
www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jub/jub24.htm

X. 1 And in the third week of this jubilee the unclean demons 2 began to lead astray †the children of† 3 the sons of Noah; and to make to err and destroy them. 2. And the sons of Noah came to Noah their father, and they told him concerning the demons which were, leading astray and blinding and slaying his sons' sons. 3. And he prayed before the Lord his God, and said:

God of the spirits of all flesh, 4 who hast shown mercy unto me,
And hast saved me and my sons from the waters of the flood,
And hast not caused me to perish as Thou didst the sons of perdition; 5

For Thy grace hath been great towards me,
And great hath been Thy mercy to my soul;
Let Thy grace be lift up upon my sons,
And let not wicked spirits rule over them
Lest they should destroy them from the earth.

[paragraph continues] 4. But do Thou bless me and my sons, that we may increase and multiply and replenish the earth. 5. And Thou knowest how Thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and created in
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order to destroy. 6. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous from henceforth and for evermore." 7. And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. 1 8. And the chief of the spirits, Mastêmâ, 2 came and said: "Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them hearken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men." 9. And He said: "Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the place of condemnation." And one of us 4 He commanded that we should teach Noah all their medicines; for He knew that they would not walk in uprightness, nor strive in righteousness. 11. And we did according to all His words: all the malignant evil ones we bound in the place of condemnation, and a tenth part of them we left that they might be subject before Satan 5 on the earth. 12. And we explained to Noah all the medicines of their diseases, together with their seductions, how he might heal them with herbs of the earth. 13. And Noah wrote down all things in a book as we instructed him concerning every kind of medicine. Thus the evil
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spirits were precluded from (hurting) the sons of Noah. 14. And he gave all that he had written to Shem, his eldest son; for he loved him exceedingly above all his sons. 15. And Noah slept with his fathers, and was buried on Mount Lûbâr in the land of Ararat. 16. Nine hundred and fifty years he completed in his life, nineteen jubilees and two weeks and five years. 17. And in his life on earth he excelled the children of men save Enoch because of the righteousness, wherein he was perfect. For Enoch's office was ordained for a testimony to the generations of the world, 1 so that he should recount all the deeds of generation unto generation, till the day of judgment.

The Book of Jubilees is quoted by Jews and Christians and endorses Enoch

The Book of Enoch
15:8. And now, the giants (Neplilim), who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. 9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ from the holy Watchers (Archon) is their beginning and primal origin; ⌈they shall be evil spirits on earth, and⌉ evil spirits shall they be called. [10. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] 11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, ⌈but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded ⌈from them⌉.

[Deleted]

This is an interesting thread Dave. So many differences with my own views. Where to begin? Much we have discussed before. So I pray to GOD and ask what makes us different?

I think the answer is this Greek word "archon". Let's start in only the NT torah, using Greek.

What does "Archon" mean in the Greek NT context?

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities "arche" or "archon" ??, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

There are 36 contexts that use archon, the word means "ruler or prince or both' this is not a BEING but a TITLE or FUNCTION a Being does. This is a major point.

Mt 9:34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

As this example shows...

Now we have to ask what does the OT torah also say about the NT torah, both torah has to have the same harmony.

In the OT Hebrew this word is "sar" meaning prince.

Is there a passage similar to the one above?

Da 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Here the word "archon" is used twice as a title ... the archon of Persia
Michael the chief archon...

So we need to identify who Michael is, and who the archon behind Persia might be?

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

If we don't study any more between the OT and NT torah, we see already Michael is associated with angels, and the dragon also with angels, assuming the Greek term "aggelos" is the Hebrew word "cherub" in this context.

Sometimes "aggelos" is also "messenger" as in "malak". So much for Greek.

So confirm for me how you see "archon" in the Greek.
1) Does the word mean a title or a being?
2) Does the word mean prince or ruler, ie a title?
3) where is this word in the Hebrew torah?

You might say, to be fair that Eph 6:12 the context make "archons" a Being?

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against "princes", against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places

Sometimes saying one is a "prince" is saying one is a Being. So does the Hebrew talk about "archons" as a created being? no it doesn't. The only created being mentioned in Hebrew torah is "adam" as a kind of humans and "cherub" as a kind of angel.

Shalom in the torah.

[Dave]

00:45 – The Tanak is 3 time larger than the Christian OT
01:30 – The Christian OT is 1/3rd of the Tanak
06:10 – Satan is not a NOUN – it is averb
09: 00 - I can be your satan – you can be mine
(Gnostic –we ca be Christ to another – like Abraham, Moses, Cyrus)
09:20 – Job
15:00 – Our ‘dirty clothing’
20:15 – a great explanation of Zorasterism
(There is only one Creator God Ahura Mazda – but man is trapped with a duality of good and evil, powers of good (gods) pull us one way – powers of evil (gods) pull us another – Their doctrine for man = in all things choose right)
20:50 – only ONE FORCE in the world = God
Gnostic – Agreed – BUT – God does not do the RA Himself (God is Good attitude), Gnostics have a very real and active spiritual realm – God’s angels are busy
Gnostic – as a consequence / byproduct / ‘indirect’ creation of TOV = RA (entrpy is a Law of God)
This indirect creation (feminine in nature) = archon – different then angels that are the agents of entropy RA – like rust on a car – just keep corroding away
21:45 – The Rabbi misstates dualism
Gnostic – dualism exist – TOV and RA and we are trapped within the Contest between the two
As a Gnostic – this does not make Good God and Bad god – this make one Creator that created the paradigm beneath him – Christ / HS – Male / female – TOV and RA – Yin and Yang – whatever

23:30 – What the Rabbi’s teach about satan
24:12 – satan is a blessing!
ID vrs Ego – cool – very modern psychology – I like it – Shia Islam calls this Jihad – the inner struggle (Sunni think it an outer struggle against the world – ISIS)
25:30 – satan allows virtue

26:50 Mitzvah = Virtue
27:15 – The Jewish New World to Come
Jewish rewards in heaven = a score of your life – Mitzvah 0 – Sin 1 – is all it takes to be a sinner
28:00 – The Bread of Life from the Kabbalah

Christianity
28:40 – misstates Christianity as I see it
Jews work and earn their reward in heaven – they grow their spirit within
He says Christian say it is a free gift - AH – but the free gift only comes if you work for it

30:25 – Rabbi really bashes Christianity
I see his criticism – but as a Christian I was confused
As a Gnostic – we have the archon
In the sliding scale between TOV on the way down to RA – I see James 1:13 – God doesn’t do it directly – He has a staff for that – a department for that – a sub-department – like the sanitation department of a much larger government
Christians have a large TOV department staffed by many angels – host
Gnostics have a RA department – with its own staff (an indirect byproduct of creation)
Does satan have FREE WILL – he is not stupid – he is intelligent enough to run an entire department of creation. Within that department he has the ability to govern his own staff – with limits set by God
Gnostics see the ‘overseer’ job is to make sure his staff doesn’t cross God’s boundaries – he restrains the RA – Rust still happens and will overtake the car – unless it is restrained

[Deleted]

Dave your reply doesn't answer my query about archons?

ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/409/judaism-job?page=1&scrollTo=2848

This link goes to a video I did watch about Jewish view on Job.

Jews have a concept of Ha-satan as a good angel doing a bad task of running negative aspects an attorney would do in the heavenly court.

They also say the "yester ha ra" and the "Yester hara tov" is built into the body from Creation, as GOD created both TOV and RA.

If you read my commentaries, I have learned a lot about Jewish views.

I do not agree with these views in the Hebrew torah, but I do see why and how they came up with their views. There is not much written in the OT, so its easy to see a different view.



One question I could NOT get answered by the Jews is this:-

1) If God disdains the RA but created RA with TOV, why create RA at all?

I have read in Jewish material if one is hungry bad enough they would steal. There is a text for this in Proverb. Jews do NOT have a concept of original sin, hence they see RA and TOV always in Creation.

2) So GOD isn't almighty enough to create a universe without RA?

Jews may not have answered this question. For one thing, it would create an origin of sin, which Jews do not have in their theology.

Now for Gnosticism

1) Now not sure about Gnostism, so I have asked you about the Archon. You mention archon mentioned in the Solomon book, can you show me the verse and book please? I want to check out the actual Hebrew of this word.

[Deleted]

OK First Rabbi Singer

Rabbi SInger youtu.be/Ud7fDvOen_A

Rabbi SInger says "

6:00 satan can mean to "impede".

Rob investigates this word meaning:-

impede VERB
delay or prevent (someone or something) by obstructing them; hinder.
synonyms:

hinder · obstruct · hamper · put a brake on · restrain · block · stand in the way of

1Ch 21:1 The Opposer stood up against Israel, (Rob)
1Ch 21:1 The Impeder stood up against Israel, (Singer)

Zec 3:1 ...and the Opposer standing at his right hand to oppose him. (Rob)
Zec 3:1 ...and the Impeder standing at his right hand to impede him. (Singer)

Ps 109:29 Let mine impeders be clothed with shame, (Singer)
Ps 109:29 Let mine opposers be clothed with shame, (Rob)

Nu 22:22 The angel of the LORD stood in the way for an opposer against Baalim. (Rob)
Nu 22:22 The angel of the LORD stood in the way for an impeder against Baalim. (Singer)

I do not see any differences with Singer's meaning or Rob's meaning of "satan-verb-noun"

Now an application:

Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Impeder came also among them

Impeder : (dictionary) "someone obstructing someone"

What process does the impeder impede of God? The salvation process of Job.

How can we be sure of this?

Job 1:8 God asks the Impeder, hast thou considered Job, whom God declared perfect.
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?

Now what does a hedge do? It protects one against enemies

Why is the impeder complaining to God to remove his hedge? Obviously the impeder is normal the being who obstructs salvation.

Isn't this the same process of a prosecutor? No, a prosecutor prosecutes one guilty of a crime, or sin, such as breaking the laws of God.

But salvation is a process of pardoning one breaking God laws, because the confesser asks for pardon, so what does a prosecutor have anything with the salvation process, based on requested pardon? nothing
However an Impeder who impedes the salvation process is in fact what this Impeder is doing.
------------------------------------------

Singer says"

9:09 All Gnostics are pagan, also saw this good and bad deities,
some Gnostics believe in few as 2 some as many as 365 deities


Rob comments"

So technically Gnostics follow polytheism, and have this idea of good and bad deities.
-----------------------------------------------

Singer says"

11:51 no angel ever went into rebellion against God

Rob comments"
Why doesn't singer notice in Ezekiel 28 the passage of the cherub chata? Not a single comment about this passage, totally ignored.
--------------------------------------------------
Singer says"

God created evil (Is 45:7 says so) to give man free will.
Imagine a world without evil, man would be loyal like a dog is always loyal, has no satan in its life


Rob comments"
Question: Everything comes from God, so of course God must also create the ra from your choice to choose.
The energy in the powder, in the bullet, in the gun is in your hands, to choose how the bullet is used for good or evil, yet the energy of movement comes from God.

Question" If you have free will to choose, why do you need an agent influencing your choices?
Answer you don't.

Question if the moral tempting agent was removed, could the humans of free will choice, be able to sin? Yes
Man is capable of sinning without a Satan, why does Singer say otherwise?

Question: not all dogs are loyal to humans, eg the dingo would attack a human normally. Why is that? Because the dingo has ra inherited in its behaviour.
-----------------------------------------------
Singer says"

11"35 Job is oldest book in Bible
God gives satan permission to act in a certain way
satan does exactly what God tells him to do

Rob comments"
God and the Impeder undergo a challenge over salvation process. The salvation process cannot continue if the person seeking salvation is killed, hence God only limits this part of the process of salvation.

Notice God set no such anything on the Impeder:-

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto the Impeder, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;
Where is the directions to act in a certain way? There are none, only do not end the salvation process.
Singer "satan does exactly what God tells him to do" is a false claim.

If there was no hedge, what would the Impeder normally impede? The salvation process, by getting humans to sin every day against God. But Job sought salvation and so a hedge was set up to hold off the Impeder from impeding the flow of blessings from God.

But the Impeder asks for one more attack on the character of Job. God agrees to the challenges of the Impeder.
To understand why, one would have to study salvation and why sin is so offensive to God.

-------------------------------
Singer says"

18:10 earliest mention of satan, genesis 3, serpent the snake
satan slides onto your radar, take the money don't give it back,
Never sin without choosing to sin, otherwise you are a liar.
DOn't go to a nude beach, no free will there, being straight with you
In drink alcohol too much, your free will is gone, but you had free will to choose to go to pub
temptation becomes overwhelming...
a church of god does not put himself in such a predicament


Rob comments"

Singer says the serpent is the earliest mention of satan, the impeder.
Yet Dave makes the serpent into some other being, like satanas??? Singer sees the serpent as the Impeder.
If temptations from the Impeder can become overwhelming, why would God create such a being in the first place?

If God is the author of good and evil, how can God be good and a God of love? He can't , because God cannot be both good and evil. Creating a person's choice to do evil, is not the same thing as God doing evil personally.
-------------------------------------------------

Singer says"

23:04 satan is not an enemy of God, satan is a servant of God


Rob comments"

So if there are no enemies of God, why does the law say
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Obviously there must be other enemies before God. These enemies are called elohiym powers.

But if GOD created a moral agent to tempt humans so they develop free will, than; this moral ra agent cannot be an enemy of God. So God has no enemies. One could say the moral agent tempting humans causes the humans to worship them as an elohiym power? Maybe, but this makes the Impeder can become overwhelming as a temptor?

Imagine your wife insists you walking a nudist beach everyday, so she can tempt / test if your remain loyal to her only? Is such a test fair? Is this an act of love? No, it is an act of tyranny. I cannot understand why God would create a moral ra agent to tempt humans to not love God? Got nothing to do with free will choice. Free will can choose already. What Singer is saying doesn't add up.

How can a moral ra agent be a servent? That makes the evil the agent does good in the eyes of God? But for man who falls in evil, the evil is bad in the eyes of God? I see a double standard here?

One might say the moral evil agent has not free will to choose God out of love. Only the passion to do evil is all the agent has. Why would God make animals without free will? Makes no sense? Either God is love or God is not love. Love requires free will choice. Why even the birds sing melodies with languages in their voices, science says, that is a free will praise to their Maker.

--------------------------------------------------------

Singer says"
23:18 if there was no satan, nobody would ever want to sin?
Rob comments"
That is a false claim. If we have free will, than we can still choose to sin.
-------------------------------
Singer says"

two primary passages:-

28:15 Is 14: 12 morning star...plant venus, brightness morning star. called lucifer, bright
talking of babylon, read chapter, from beginning, enemies of God destroyed.
verse 4, babylon
no Babylon around when this was written. its a really a prophetic...
Babylon is a lion, loses its wings, and heart of lion.
no satan image here, morning star, metaphor, planet venus, I am so bright I keep shinning as sun comes up
sun rises and venus is gone too.
Babylon too will disappear.


Rob comments"
OK let's see....

Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation;
Isa 13:2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain,
Isa 13:6 ¶ Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand;
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, ...and he shall destroy the sinners ...
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil,

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place
Isa 13:19 ¶ And Babylon, ..., shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 14:4 ¶ That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon,
Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest,

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming:
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave,
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, ...., son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell.

The passage is talking of salvation and it's opposite, sin.
The king of sin on earth first was babylon.
Another king of sin, weakens the nations, it cannot be a planet called venus.
This king of sin is brought down to hell? Not some planet called venus
-----------------------------------


Singer says"
Other passage abused....Ezekiel 28
read 26, 27 talking about tyre, about economic power...
Tyre was Israel best friend, wealthy dues to ships, etc
supplying stuff to Israel... this best friend becomes arrogant
say to Tyre, the man...
look at literature first.... not chemistry book....you soar like garden of Eden
39:44 I love America... what will America do today?
America needs to be blessing Israel...

Rob comments"
Not a single comment of the "cherub chata" passage. The words are ignored.
Obviously some angel sinned.

Not even considered.

--------------------------------------------

Singer talks but does not discuss in depth the details I have outlined here.

Shalom

[Dave]

Thank you for taking it seriously

Singer says"
9:09 All Gnostics are pagan, also saw this good and bad deities,
some Gnostics believe in few as 2 some as many as 365 deities
Rob comments"
So technically Gnostics follow polytheism, and have this idea of good and bad deities.
As you read with me – the Aprochrapon of John tells us that the First Archon fathered 365 other archon – made 365 archon offspring for himself

Rabbi Singer is aware of this information – quotes it – why don’t Christians
Correct Robert – all of the religions of the 99% are polytheistic
200 on an average with 20 major players – all of different names – but names don’t matter
-----------------------------------------------

Singer says"
11:51 no angel ever went into rebellion against God
Rob comments"
Why doesn't singer notice in Ezekiel 28 the passage of the cherub chata? Not a single comment about this passage, totally ignored.

Talking about ignoring scripture

Exo 20:1 Then God spoke all these words saying,
Exo 20:2 “I am Adonai your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exo 20:4 Do not make for yourself a graven image , or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or on the earth below or in the water under the earth.

Exo 25:18 Also make two cheruvim of gold, from hammered work, at the two ends of the atonement cover.
Exo 25:19 Make one cheruv at one end and one cheruv at the other end. Of one piece with the atonement cover you are to make the cheruvim at its two ends.
Exo 25:20 The cheruvim are to spread out their wings above, shielding the atonement cover with their wings, each facing its companion. The faces of the cheruvim are to be turned toward the atonement cover.

Why does your god instruct Israel to violate the 10 Commandments?

Rob comments"
Not a single comment of the "cherub chata" passage. The words are ignored. Not even considered
Obviously some angel sinned.

Obvious to who – only you
Why dose God require Israel to make images of heavenly angels for the Ark of the Covenant to keep the 10 Commandment that demand no images of heavenly things
Does scripture contradict itself?
Dose God contradict himself?
Tell me how your theology is consistent with God laws – you say God cannot break
Prove to me that the Hebrew word cherub only means an angel from heaven
Or – are you teaching that the Jews put two satans on the ark?

Scripture must validate itself = precept upon precept, line upon line – Catholic satan is a myth
--------------------------------------------------
Singer says"

God created evil (Is 45:7 says so) to give man free will.
Imagine a world without evil, man would be loyal like a dog is always loyal, has no satan in its life

Rob comments"
Question: Everything comes from God, so of course God must also create the ra from your choice to choose.
God must also create the ra from your choice to choose. - What does this mean?

Ra existed before eve – the only thing that changed in the garden was KNOWLEGDE
Now may KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE between tov and ra
It is not the tree of tov and ra as you present – it is the tree of knowledge between the two
Now man knows the definition of sin - disobedience

Question" If you have free will to choose, why do you need an agent influencing your choices?
Answer you don't.
You are correct Robert – there is no need for a god of evil – Catholic satan in opposition to God who wants your soul for his own kingdom – it is Catholic Myth

Question if the moral tempting agent (Catholic satan) was removed, could the humans of free will choice, be able to sin? Yes
Yes – (yester ra) is all man needs to sin – to be selfish and disrespect the Lord
You are correct Robert – there is no need for a god of evil – Catholic satan in opposition to God who wants your soul for his own kingdom – it is Catholic Myth

-----------------------------------------------
Singer says"
11"35 Job is oldest book in Bible
God gives satan permission to act in a certain way
satan does exactly what God tells him to do
Yep - your opposer did not oppose the Lord - absolutley obeyed

-------------------------------
Singer says" 18:10 earliest mention of satan, genesis 3, serpent the snake
Rob comments"
Singer says the serpent is the earliest mention of satan, the impeder.
Yet Dave makes the serpent into some other being, like satanas??? Singer sees the serpent as the Impeder.
Yes the serpent of the garden was very much satanas – because it was a beast of the fieilds – a biological creature – fully defined in the agl Rev 12 – The serpent race – the devils – the satanas – the family BEAST – archon

If God is the author of good and evil, how can God be good and a God of love? He can't , because God cannot be both good and evil. Creating a person's choice to do evil, is not the same thing as God doing evil personally.

Either scripture is wrong – or your teaching that God is always nice and pleasant – never causes any harm – can do no ra – IS LOPSIDED – it is not consistent with the bulk of scripture
Let me ask you own question – how can a God of love only cast so many souls into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death? – or damn so many to hell for eternal torments if you like ‘The Fire that Consumes’

God is love – He is also righteous and fair

-------------------------------------------------

Singer says"
23:04 satan is not an enemy of God, satan is a servant of God
Rob comments"
So if there are no enemies of God, why does the law say
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Obviously there must be other enemies other gods before God. These enemies other gods are called elohiym powers.other gods

You completely ignore the 99% - you ignore reality – scripture and God is a global event
Rev 12:7 the Beast and his archon are cast into this world – they live here – the whole wold – all of it
There are 33 ‘other gods’ – archon – serpents race devils – satanas in the Levant alone
Every ancient culture of the 99% has around 200 ‘ other gods’ with about 20 major players
These ‘other gods’ are always humanoid- selfish – greedy – in family units that fight amongst themselves
Not just near Israel – but the whole globe – everywhere outside of the 1%

But if GOD created a moral agent to tempt humans so they develop free will, than; this moral ra agent cannot be an enemy of God. So God has no enemies.
You talk like a evil Catholic – Did God allow the evil Beast to enter the world to temp man to evil – NO
The Beast was of matter – was selfish and only though of (yester ra) so out of heaven you go
The Beast was not made for man – the Beast just appeared – as with entropy is inherent to creation
Baboons are not evil – their only motive is self-amusement / self-satisfaction
Baboons are not evil – their only motive is SELF (yester ra)

The archon – the family Beast – is not quite angelic (invisible) – or not quite animal (visible) – they walk a fine line in-between – AND – they are the most devious / cunning / sly of all the beast of the field

So God has no enemies
Correct – God is absolute – who can stand against God – No One
Rev 12:7 war – was not a long protracted conflict between two equal powers
God said get out – Michael chased them out the door
To make it a war – possibly the archon attempted to resist – screamed – begged – whined – cried – during their full retreat - but they couldn’t stand even against Michael

One could say the moral agent tempting humans causes the humans to worship them as an elohiym power? Maybe, but this makes the Impeder can become overwhelming as a temptor?
This has nothing to do with your satan – it could be the worship of Caesar Augustus – Emperor Ito – it could be football – you job – science – evolution – Mormonism – Buddhist – government

Anything that keeps you sidetracked – focused elsewhere – anywhere but upon God

The archon do not have to be catholic evil – they can fuel your love of football. Give you strength even – help you run faster – be a winner – be the alpha – be dominate – King Tyre

The archon do not have to be catholic evil – they can empower you through Hollywood – make you famous – help you – stroke you – Tom Cruise and his Scientology – Ophra Winfry and her own religion - King Tyre

Imagine your wife insists you walking a nudist beach everyday, so she can tempt / test if your remain loyal to her only? Is such a test fair? Is this an act of love? No, it is an act of tyranny. I cannot understand why God would create a moral ra agent to tempt humans to not love God?

Deu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in (through this) wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.

So you have gone from God is Love only to God is a Tyrant

How can a moral ra agent be a servent?
No one is saying that except the Catholic Church and you and you evil worship
How can a (yester ra) agent be a servant? - we use horses and oxen as servants – God is probably better at it then we are
--------------------------------------------------------

Singer says"
23:18 if there was no satan, nobody would ever want to sin?
Rob comments"
That is a false claim. If we have free will, than we can still choose to sin.

You do not understand him because you think of satan as a god of evil
He sees satan as this world – cold, hunger, disease, war, other gods trying to kill them, other men trying to kill them – (does he need a god of evil on top of all that) – no – its all world - its all archon and archon's kingdom
-------------------------------
Singer says"
two primary passages:-
Ez 28:15 Is 14: 12 morning star...plant venus, brightness morning star. called lucifer, bright
talking of babylon, read chapter, from beginning, enemies of God destroyed.
verse 4, babylon
no Babylon around when this was written.
Excuse me – Kingdom of Babylon 1895 BC–539 BC
Ezekiel lived c.600 BCE - c.550 BCE and dealt with: Babylonian Captivity
PLEASE TRY TO STICK TO THE FACTS – it is not helpful to make up stuff on the fly

The passage is talking of salvation and it's opposite, sin.
The king of sin on earth first was babylon. (a man)
Another king of sin, weakens the nations, it cannot be a planet called venus.
Correct it is (yester ra- vanity)
This king of sin is brought down to hell? Not some planet called venus
Correct it is (yester ra – vanity)

This issue of Catholic satan divides the faith – it keeps Christianity away from the Jews
Isn’t that the point of Catholic satan?

Ponder the correlation between – the chuch and scripture

Synod of Laodicea - Canon 29
www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be ignorant of this mystery—lest you be wise in your own eyes—that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Now that you understand (better) the Jewish mindset
Why doesn’t the witness of a human sacrifice necessary to keep them for hell fire for all eternity work? Especially when that human sacrifice did not fulfill all the scripture that the messiah must.

Look at this – is this the hand of God? – or bazaar coincidence?

Please review another of these videos –

Kabbalah Angels and Demons – or – Satan is not who you think he is

[Deleted]

D"Why does your god instruct Israel to violate the 10 Commandments?
R" Why change subject?

The text says "no other elohiym's before my face"

The making of a symbol of God's throne, where God sits, with cherub on both sides looking at God, is not representing a different elohiym power, is it?

Ye are not to worship a different elohiym power, the commandment text says.

Making symbols of where God is and how the community of God looks, is not an idol of technology.

Please elaborate, your brevity is confusing

D"Obvious to who – only you
R" OK show me a different Rabbi who spend some 20 minutes discussing the cherub chata verse and its obvious applications in the Jewish religion. Is there such a rabbi?



D"Why dose God require Israel to make images of heavenly angels for the Ark of the Covenant to keep the 10 Commandment that demand no images of heavenly things
Does scripture contradict itself?
Dose God contradict himself?
Tell me how your theology is consistent with God laws – you say God cannot break
R" totally change the subject do we? How about addressing Rabbi Singer
He does not address the details....

Ekekiel 28 cherub chata, why doesn't he discuss this? Does any rabbi discuss this?



D"Prove to me that the Hebrew word cherub only means an angel from heaven
R" Jews say this, Singer says this, you have to defend Singer to me, not me defend Jewish stuff to you.


D"God must also create the ra from your choice to choose. - What does this mean?
R" Man engineers the gun from atomic material God allows to exist, because the movement of atoms comes from GOD who empowers the atoms to exist. The gun also has chemicals also with energy that comes from God.
The man decides to murder a human with the gun's bullet. Who kills the human? The human did. How is the RA allowed to exist, is because GOD engineers the world so the sin is allowed to be observed.

Normally sin and ra would not be allowed to exist, ever. But you differ on this with me. Your god lives with flawed imperfection ideals all the time naturally; my view of God doesn't (unless dealing with sin for the first time in His universes).

D"Ra existed before eve
R" Apart from darkness from angels sinning first, yes, I agree. But OUR Creation was perfect and without RA directly impacting mankind, despite the sinning angels living on earth with man causing some ra already on the earth. Since God is greater than you and me, He can create a finely tuned world to exist despite some ra in it, but from man's point of view, until man sinned, there was no RA impacting man in any way.


RP"Question" If you have free will to choose, why do you need an agent influencing your choices?
D" Answer you don't.
You are correct Robert – there is no need for a god of evil
R" You agree with me. WOW.... Let's talk down Singer. Singer is wrong utterly. Man can sin without a satan agent, without any moral ra agent, Man has free will and can sin whenever man chooses to. So Singer is wrong with his ideas, let's agree to that.

D"Yes – (yester ra) is all man needs to sin
R" Hmm? details? That implies the yester ra was created already into the man? No

Where I see mankind received yester ra, only after Adam sinned. The difference between us? My view of GOD does not create flaws or imperfections in any creature.... that includes archons too. So where did the ra from the archons come from? For me? From their own free will to choose sinning. That's why I see the archons as fallen angels, and the Book of Enoch, your writings agrees with me. 


D"Yep - your opposer did not oppose the Lord - absolutely obeyed
R" so unwilling to discuss all my details arn't you?

What process does the impeder impede of God? The salvation process of Job.

How can we be sure of this?

Job 1:8 God asks the Impeder, hast thou considered Job, whom God declared perfect.

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?

Now what does a hedge do? It protects against Impeders who impede the salvation process.

Why is the impeder complaining to God to remove his hedge? Obviously the impeder is normally the being who obstructs salvation process. But you don't get this do you?

A further point I add here about your prosecutor idea. It is false. Why? Because when a sinner confesses his sins to the Sin-bearer, the sinner already is pleading guilty, so there is no need for a prosecutor. The Sin-bearer takes the sins of the guilty one and atones for the transgressions, making the sinner sinless. Again no need for a prosecutor. The sinner is pardoned. No need for a court room either, as the sinner declares himself/herself already guilty of the transgressions committed. A court room is only necessary for wicked ones who do not confess to their sins they have done, so maybe a prosecutor is required here. 

I hate to tell you this but the Impeder here talking to God is impeding the salvation process, and stopping the confession of sins unto His SON Jesus. So the NT calls this Impeder an accuser of the brethren. 

Why does GOD allow Himself to be challenged by this sinning Impeder claims? To absolutely prevent sin arising a second time. God allows the Impeder to argue all the excuses He can. God knows Job will suffer but not fall, but the Impeder doesn't know this. 

I repeat , a hedge prevents Impeder attack on human sheep.
Removing the hedge, allows Impeder attack on humans sheep. 

Who asked the hedge of GOD to be removed? The Impeder did. 


D"Yes the serpent of the garden was very much satanas – because it was a beast of the fieilds – a biological creature
R" Yes Dave, but Singer says this serpent is the same guy as Job's satan... Singer is not agreeing with you. Singer is not saying there are two kinds of moral ra agents, only one is spoken.

D"Either scripture is wrong – or your teaching that God is always nice and pleasant – never causes any harm
R" correct God is always a god of love, not a trace of ra in God anywhere.

D"Let me ask you own question – how can a God of love only cast so many souls into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death?
R" Look at Sodom, the humans were tortured some for just 0.1 seconds, some maybe 3 seconds of time, the fire that consumes causes the humans to cease to exist. Nothing remains. Nothing.

Is not love allowed to have some consequences to your actions? Y/n?

D"Obviously there must be other enemies other gods before God. These enemies other gods are called elohiym powers. other gods
R" Oh so these other gods are not enemies of God? How convenient for you.


D"There are 33 ‘other gods’ – archon – serpents race devils – satanas in the Levant alone
Every ancient culture of the 99% has around 200 ‘ other gods’ with about 20 major players
These ‘other gods’ are always humanoid- selfish – greedy – in family units that fight amongst themselves
Not just near Israel – but the whole globe – everywhere outside of the 1%
R" And God never considers them as enemies of God, something to remove and destroy because it's ra and evil?
Let me guess? God created them to be useful and a servant of God, so they cannot be bad, and therefore exist with mankind in the next heaven and earth for all eternity? Is that correct? no

So something is wrong with your theories Dave?

Why would God create something and than destroy that creation later, after all the archons have no free will?

D" Did God allow the evil Beast to enter the world to temp man to evil – NO
R" SO now the beast itself decides to evil, God didn't create this action? I thought the archons are programmed? Now they have free will? Which theories do you present Dave? Explain?

D"Baboons are not evil – their only motive is SELF (yester ra)
R" God curses the ground, so all animals and plants feel the loss of God in their lives when Adam sinned. God nothing to do with inherent ra, before Eve sinned, as you claim.

D"Correct – God is absolute – who can stand against God – No One
Rev 12:7 war – was not a long protracted conflict between two equal powers
God said get out – Michael chased them out the door
To make it a war – possibly the archon attempted to resist – screamed – begged – whined – cried – during their full retreat - but they couldn’t stand even against Michael


R" correct but any creature sinning Dave becomes by definition an enemy of GOD.

So these archons must have free will than, otherwise God would not have kicked them out, when they decided to sin? Can you explain your views with some clarity please?

D"This has nothing to do with your satan – it could be the worship of Caesar Augustus – Emperor Ito – it could be football – you job – science – evolution – Mormonism – Buddhist – government
R" correct but you also ignore that other creatures have free will and sinned before man sinned.
You so ignore all this. In fact you say only man has free will.

Your God must be fearful of having free will creatures, in case too many creature choose to sin?
One angel sinned because he was the closest to God where the laws are written and he reads them every day.
Highest creature of all creatures. Not considered by Jewish rabbi, why is that?

D"Deu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in (through this) wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.

So you have gone from God is Love only to God is a Tyrant
R" I get the need to test/tempt after sin comes.
I don't get the need to test/tempt when both creature and GOD remain sinless and perfect.

Do you ever consider the sinless state of both Creature and Creator?
Do you need a tester /test than? Absolutely not. Not ever.

D"He sees satan as this world – cold, hunger, disease, war, other gods trying to kill them, other men trying to kill them – (does he need a god of evil on top of all that)
R" He didn't say that Dave. Than Singer is deceiving me than with his words?


D"This king of sin is brought down to hell? Not some planet called venus
Correct it is (yester ra – vanity)
R" hang on, Singer calls this Venus, not some human or angel agent, just a planet.
Somebody is lying Dave?

D"This issue of Catholic satan divides the faith – it keeps Christianity away from the Jews
Isn’t that the point of Catholic satan?
R" Really? how about asking your Rabbi, why nobody talks of the passage in Ek 28 "cherub chata"
Why is this verse ignored?

D"Please review another of these videos
R" OK, but I bet you the Rabbi does not discuss "cherub chata" does it?

Shalom

[Dave]

D"Why does your god instruct Israel to violate the 10 Commandments?
R" Why change subject?
You have an entire religion built around two words – cherub chata
You insist that this can only possible mean that a beloved angel of the lord became your satan

God says – make no images of anything in the heavens
Then 5 chapters later – God says – make two images of cherub and place them on Israel’s most cherished religious symbol

You claim – God told Israel to violate the 10 Commandments because cherub only means angel

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4311-cherub
Ezek. xli. 18-25 and other passages show that the number and form of the cherubim vary in different representations. The books of Kings and Chronicles contain, in the main, a description of the cherubim of Solomon's Temple. The Ark was placed between the two colossal figures of cherubim, carved in olivewood and plated with gold, ten cubits high, standing in the adytum () and facing the door. The distance between the points of their outstretched wings was ten cubits; the right wing of the one touching the point of the left wing of the other, while the outer wings extended to the walls (I Kings vi. 23-28; viii. 6, 7; II Chron. iii. 10-13, v. 7-8). II Chron. iii. 14 states that they were woven in the veil of the adytum; and in Ex. xxvi. 1, 31 and xxxvi. 8, 35 they are also referred to as wrought into the curtains and veil of the Temple. In Ex. xxv. 18-22, xxxvii. 7-9; Num. vii. 89 mention is made by the priestly writer of two cherubim of solid gold, upon the golden slab of the , facing each other. Their outstretched wings came together above, constituting a throne on which the glory of Yhwh appeared, and from whence He spoke.

In the early days of Israel's history the cherubim became the divine chariot, the bearer of the throne of Yhwh in its progress through the worlds (I Sam. iv. 4; II Sam. vi. 2; I Chron. xiii. 6). The cherubim of the Ark of the Covenant seem to be meant here, and this is probably also the case in II Kings xix. 15; Isa. xxxvii. 16; Ps. lxxx. 1, xcix. 1 (see Rahlfs, und in den Psalmen," 1892, pp. 36 et seq.). At an earlier period the cherubim were the living chariot of the theophanic God, possibly identical with the storm-winds (Ps. xviii. 11; II Sam. xxii. 11: "And he rode upon a cherub and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind "). Here is a conception similar to that of the Babylonians, where the cherubim originally symbolized the winds.

"Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbahhttps://www.jstor.org › stable
by D Arbel · 2005 · Cited by 14 — Tradition to Commentary: Torah and Its Interpretation in the Midrash Sifre ... "Ezekiel 28: The Fall of Adam," in Literature on Adam

Questions about Eve's Iniquity, Beauty, and Fall: The "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbah" Traditions of Eve

www.thetorah.com/article/the-cherubim-their-role-on-the-ark-in-the-holy-of-holies
Dr. RabbiZev Farber - The Cherubim: Their Role on the Ark in the Holy of Holies
The most intriguing and surprising aspect of the Ark, and possibly the whole Mishkan, are the Cherubs on the Ark’s cover. What are cherubs? The Torah describes them in detail in Exodus 25:

Tradition has interpreted the Cherubs to represent anything from a child to a man, woman to an angel, from a bird to a Torah scholar. Ancient Near Eastern evidence answers this uncertainty, or at least tells us what the Cherubim originally meant.

D"Why does your god instruct Israel to violate the 10 Commandments?
R" Why change subject?
You have an entire religion built around two words – cherub chata
You insist that this can only possible mean that a beloved angel of the lord became your satan

R" Really? how about asking your Rabbi, why nobody talks of the passage in Ek 28 "cherub chata"
Why is this verse ignored?

Sorry Robert – there is much Rabbinic commentary on Ezk 28 – specifically about you cgerub chata
They discuss the fall of man – the fall of Adam – the fall of Eve

Ekekiel 28 cherub chata, why doesn't he discuss this? Does any rabbi discuss this?R" OK show me a different Rabbi who spend some 20 minutes discussing the cherub chata verse and its obvious applications in the Jewish religion. Is there such a rabbi?
Already done – long ago
You just do not like what they say

Making symbols of God and how the community of God looks,( Heaven) is not an idolatry
WHAT DID YOU SAY?

RP"Question" If you have free will to choose, why do you need an agent influencing your choices?
D" Answer you don't.
You are correct Robert – there is no need for a god of evil
R" You agree with me. WOW....
YEP – (yestr ra) is the biological programming for self - all creatures of matter suffer from (yester ra)

Let's talk down Singer. Singer is wrong utterly. Man can sin without a satan agent, without any moral ra agent, Man has free will and can sin whenever man chooses to. So Singer is wrong with his ideas, let's agree to that.
WHAT – you are surprised that I agree with you and Rabbi Singer – then you say
So Singer is wrong with his ideas, let's agree to that.
I really have no idea of your point or even the direction you are trying to take me

Man has (yester ra) = man is selfish all by himself – man sins all by himself
There is no need for a god of evil (your satan) to invent sin or create sin or force you to sin

D"Yes – (yester ra) is all man needs to sin
R" Hmm? details? That implies the yester ra was created already into the man? No
Where I see mankind received yester ra, only after Adam sinned.

So there was no (yester ra) to choose – until after Adan chose (yester ra)
I swear officer there was no gun in my hand – until after I shot someone
Sure Robert – only the most intelligent believe this

D"Yep - your opposer did not oppose the Lord - absolutely obeyed
R" so unwilling to discuss all my details arn't you?
You demand that the definition of your satan is that he opposes God
So why doesn’t he oppose God – instead – he obeys God

D"Yes the serpent of the garden was very much satanas – because it was a beast of the fieilds – a biological creature
R" Yes Dave, but Singer says this serpent is the same guy as Job's satan... Singer is not agreeing with you.
Rabbi Singer does not have all the information does he? The agl Rev 12 fully defines the sertpent for Christians

D"Either scripture is wrong – or your teaching that God is always nice and pleasant – never causes any harm
R" correct God is always a god of love, not a trace of ra in God anywhere.
D"Let me ask you own question – how can a God of love only cast so many souls into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death?
R" Look at Sodom, the humans were tortured some for just 0.1 seconds, some maybe 3 seconds of time, the fire that consumes causes the humans to cease to exist. Nothing remains. Nothing.
Why would God create something and than destroy that creation later,
R" correct God is always a god of love, not a trace of ra in God anywhere.

D" Did God allow the evil Beast to enter the world to temp man to evil – NO
R" SO now the beast itself decides to evil, God didn't create this action?
Dose a baboon decide to be evil
Dose a bacterium decide to be evil
Dose a virus decide to be evil

D"He sees satan as this world – cold, hunger, disease, war, other gods trying to kill them, other men trying to kill them – (does he need a god of evil on top of all that)
R" He didn't say that Dave. Than Singer is deceiving me than with his words?
Tell expert Hebrew student – what evil did the Jews face – cold, hunger, disease, war, other gods trying to kill them, other men trying to kill them – (does he need a god of evil on top of all that)

Your disrespect for the Jews and what they had to endure so that you could know Christ personally is noted

D"This issue of Catholic satan divides the faith – it keeps Christianity away from the Jews
Isn’t that the point of Catholic satan?

[Deleted]

D"Sorry Robert – there is much Rabbinic commentary on Ezk 28 – specifically about you cgerub chata
They discuss the fall of man – the fall of Adam – the fall of Eve
R" There is? Where, show me a video just on Jewish commentary of Ezek 28, the fall of angels, or what they say?

D"WHAT – you are surprised that I agree with you and Rabbi Singer – then you say
So Singer is wrong with his ideas, let's agree to that.
I really have no idea of your point or even the direction you are trying to take me
Man has (yester ra) = man is selfish all by himself – man sins all by himself
There is no need for a god of evil (your satan) to invent sin or create sin or force you to sin
R" Dave, Rabbi Singer says if there was no satan, than all humans would not sin, as they are programmed to be holy. But as you say, man has yester ra within him, "man is selfish all by himself – man sins all by himself", therefore what Singer said is false, wrong.

RP" R" Yes Dave, but Singer says this serpent is the same guy as Job's satan... Singer is not agreeing with you.
D" Rabbi Singer does not have all the information does he?
R" Oh, but you are willing to listen to him? If we listened to Mrs White God gave her all the truth correctly, (maybe some truth is not revealed) but no mistakes in presenting truth shown to us, there is a difference here. Singer is making one error according to you, but not according to me on this point. In other areas, Singer does make errors to me too.

D"Dose a baboon decide to be evil
Dose a bacterium decide to be evil
Dose a virus decide to be evil
R" SO you affirm the archons are programmed to be self, to do ra, these actions are not coming for choices of free will. So if these creatures are a byproduct of creation, intentionally the same as the bacteria, the virus and the babbon, these archons should also remain in the next creation for mankind, and so mankind is tested/tempted to sin for forever by archons in the next paradise? Is this your view Dave?

I say this because the bacteria, the virus and the babboon is there in the next creation for man, but not the archon. Why not? Because they sinned intentionally using free will. The bacteria and the virus do ra, because of the curse of sin, from higher order creatures, ie man. If this curse of sin is removed, the lower order of creatures do no ra. 

If you say the archons are removed in the next heavenly bliss, than their existence in our world now, had nothing to do with your view.

In fact a god creating creatures with ra seems like an imperfection to me. Prone to kill, eat others and spoil the perfection of creation, seems like a god dealing with flaws, ie imperfection. I thought God was above all the imperfections of ra and able to create perfectly functional things in all creatures?


D" what evil did the Jews face – cold, hunger, disease, war, other gods trying to kill them, other men trying to kill them – (does he need a god of evil on top of all that)
R" YOU raise an interesting question Dave. Where does the evil spirit come from if the word spirit means medium, a function property of the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that when the first creature sinned, God holds that creature accountable for all the sins that follow, making that first creature into an elohiym power God opposes.

I get the impression that the medium is a conduit for the flow of power (all that flows from God, and administrated by God), so the first being that sinned becomes the selected agent God chooses to make into this elohiym opposing power, so a evil flow of power is allowed to flow via the medium of the HS.

If you look at the day of atonement ritual, one creature holds all the evil and sins of Israel, and that one being carries those sins of ra forever until the goat dies. This is the Biblical way GOD accounts for sin and all ra, unto the first craeature that chose to sin. And the first that sinned was not Adam, nor Eve, but an angel closest to God.


D"Your disrespect for the Jews
R" I do not disrespect Jews, however they are extremely difficult to get emails from. They are also steeped stubbornly in their views, and do not consider the Hebrew their Hebrew prophets wrote.
----------------------
Kabbalah of angels and demons, souls and humans; video by Rabbi Wolf

(strike, a 1hr 19 minutes???)

Rabbi Wolf says"

10:00 1)one level of creation ' let there be, direct creations...
2) another level of creation, by product,

Rob says"

The notion that GOD cannot create functionally is blasphemy. God is above all flaws, all imperfections and greater than man's wisdom. God never created a flawed creation as you suggest or Wolf suggest.

Rabbi Wolf says"

11:51 no let the be demons, let there be shedim
possibly shedim came after 6th day...
Shedim not needed, as a by product of other things, the shedim came to exist
Shedim are impure, not good or bad.
Shedim came around as a result of the absence of purity.
Lack of something, allowing the shedim to exist.

Rob says"

Such weird ideas. Not found in Genesis. Everything God created was pure, as His words are pure. Creation is based on words, Jesus spoke and the Creation followed. So now we entertain the idea that the words spoken were impure and not correctly spoken.

If you look in Ezek 28 you find the angel sinned long before mankind existed. Not after day 6.


Rabbi Wolf says"

14:41 Midrash says blah blah and we get with Adam this name Lilith.
Where did these women come from and where was Eve ?
Why didn't Eve know about her?
Estrangement between Adam and Eve....lonely for over 100 years, in that time got involved with Lilith
Some sort of negative activity takes place.
Adam was happy because kids resembled Adam's appearance.

Rob says"

Weird and totally unfounded. No evidence of this in Genesis. So are Jews allowed to make up extra words... do not add to the words of the torah God says....
SO Adam sinned some more after this one sin in Eden? I doubt this. I suspect Adam sinned only once in 930 years.
So did Eve, sin only once as well. Not what these sinning humans are suggesting.

Rabbi Wolf says"

Lilith is not human per se,
17:26 They produce thousands of children.
Midrash concludes these are not humans as such.

Rob says" Weird.

Stop on 19 minutes. Listen to rest later.

Is there any commentaries on Ezekiel 28 by Rabbi Wolf? Speed up reading and investigating his claims.

Shalom

[Dave]

D"Sorry Robert – there is much Rabbinic commentary on Ezk 28 – specifically about you cherub chata
They discuss the fall of man – the fall of Adam – the fall of Eve
R" There is? Where, show me a video just on Jewish commentary of Ezek 28, the fall of angels, or what they say?
I have – you pretend you cannot find the link
There are 4 videos here – 2 from the Jerusalem institute for Hebrew Studies
You just do not like what they say

No one ever heard of your cherub chata idea until Rome invented it

RP" R" Yes Dave, but Singer says this serpent is the same guy as Job's satan... Singer is not agreeing with you.
D" Rabbi Singer does not have all the information does he?
R" Oh, but you are willing to listen to him?
Yes – I will listen to him and then add the agl to his words

D"Dose a baboon decide to be evil
Dose a bacterium decide to be evil
Dose a virus decide to be evil
R" SO you affirm the archons are programmed to be self, to do ra, - (yester ra)

In fact a god creating creatures with ra (yester ra)seems like an imperfection to me.
Correct man was perfect - then choose to sin - Ezk 28
Agreed – you think all of God’s creation/ Will / Plan was corrupted by your satan god
God the Creator weak – evil god satan strong - can force God to alter His Will and His Plan

D" what evil did the Jews face – cold, hunger, disease, war, other gods trying to kill them, other men trying to kill them – (does he need a god of evil on top of all that)
R" YOU raise an interesting question Dave. Where does the evil spirit come
Rev 12:3 – written for all to see and understand – The Beast – the serpent race – devils and satanas - archon

----------------------
Kabbalah of angels and demons, souls and humans; video by Rabbi Wolf

Rabbi Wolf says"
10:00 1)one level of creation ' let there be, direct creations...
2) another level of creation, by product,

Rob says"
The notion that GOD cannot create functionally is blasphemy.
Balance is functional – you think that the world was a magical kingdom or a fairy tale

Rabbi Wolf says"
11:51 no let the be demons, let there be shedim
possibly shedim came after 6th day...
Shedim not needed, as a by product of other things, the shedim came to exist
Shedim are impure, not good or bad.
Shedim came around as a result of the absence of purity.
Lack of something, allowing the shedim to exist.

Rob says"
Such weird ideas. Not found in Genesis. Everything God created was pure
YEP – Rev 12 the Great Beast just appeared – from the Left hand – the Hand of Mystery

If you look in Ezek 28 you find the angel sinned long before mankind existed. Not after day 6.
NO YOU DON’T – you find cherub chata

Rabbi Wolf says"
14:41 Midrash says blah blah and we get with Adam this name Lilith.
Where did these women come from and where was Eve ?
Why didn't Eve know about her?
Estrangement between Adam and Eve....lonely for over 100 years, in that time got involved with Lilith
Some sort of negative activity takes place.
Adam was happy because kids resembled Adam's appearance.
Mid rash = Jewish Legend - their way of explaining ½ matter creatures – ½ Adam (man - matter) + ½ Lilith
Thankfully we have the words of the disciples John, James, Peter, Phillip, Thomas, and Paul for better definition

Rob says"
Weird and totally unfounded. No evidence of this in Genesis. So are Jews allowed to make up extra words... do not add to the words of the torah God says....
No – the Jews are just exposed to a lot more information than you (I mean Rome) allows

SO Adam sinned some more after this one sin in Eden? I doubt this. I suspect Adam sinned only once in 930 years.
AH – the great harm of only reading ½ of the legend
Every Jewish Commentary will also say – this did not happen in the physical world – but the spiritual world – the Jewish way to refere to the First Age – Gen 1:1-3 – creation – darkness – light of salvation

Rabbi Wolf says"
Lilith is not human per se, - YEP – piritual in heaven – their story of the Beast and the archon
17:26 They produce thousands of children. – YEP – the only heavenly creatures within scripture that has offspring / bane elohiym / archon

Midrash concludes these are not humans as such. – Yep not human - archon

[Deleted]

Greetings

I followed your presentation, and agree that it is logical and sound, if you follow the tanak with the added words of wisdom from so called Jewish prophets, other than Moses, Ezekiel and Isaiah.

Question: How do you tell the difference between an inspired prophet and a false prophet?
If a false prophet is proven to be false, than their writings should be expelled from Scripture.

My Jewish prophets wrote this, for testing the prophets:-

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Ac 28:23 ¶ And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening

SO we have so far, torah of Moses, first five books of Bible, Psalms, and lastly the prophets, what were they?

The PROPHETS, Myaybn, nabiaim, or teachers, including Joshua, Judges, the two books of Samuel, and the two books of Kings: these were termed the former prophets. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi: these were termed the latter prophets.

Now this comes from Adam Clark, so if this is incorrect, show me a Jewish idea of what was considered the prophets.

But one thing is clear, all the writings have to agree with Moses writings.

SHalom