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Post by Dave on Aug 14, 2021 7:41:04 GMT -5
D"Please give me a scripture that = moral law for angels Show me the laws or commandment that govern God! CORRECT ROBERT THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR – end of story R" I present to you Noahide laws considered by Jews to be universal even for angels. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah I postulate to you these laws are eternally binding for all creatures including angels.The Noahide Laws - www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/Seven commandments which, according to Jewish tradition, are incumbent upon all of humankind.In the ninth chapter of Genesis, we read this: God speaks to Noah and his children as they exit the ark: ‘Behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you.’ (Genesis 9:9) Behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you.’Postulate all you want – assume all you want – I ’ll just stick with scrpture
--------------------- R" Now I submit to you that the fallen angels or angels of darkness existed in the Jewish theology at least 100BC or 100 AD, hundreds of years before your Roman edit claim. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/angels-and-angelology-2The War Scroll (1QM 13:10–12). So confused – when I wanted to address this Gnostic text with you – you mocked it Now you present it as Jewish scripture Please try to at least appear consistent
Either Gnostic literature is all fake and evil with no truth in it Or it compose a large section of Jewish scriptureI would love to discuss the War Scroll with you – why wouldn't you touch it beforeBut if you want to post this GNOSTIC literature as Hebrew scripture – I’ll Play(P.S. War Scroll for the Dead Sea was found alongside the Book of Giants and Enoch I am glad to see you realize there is more to Judaism that you ever admitted)The War Scroll describes two angels of prime importance: "The Prince of Light" and "The Angel of Darkness," with whom were associated "the sons of righteousness" and "the sons of darkness" respectively (1QM 13:10–12). Yes – the story of the four horsemen YES – the battel of the end of days lasting 38 years – 3 major battels - beginning in the Middle East – then the Balkans – and the third and last battel in Europe
The angels of light are Christians The angels of darkness are the Archon released for the Abyss in Rev 9 and their followersThese angels were in perpetual conflict and thought to fight on the sides of the two armies at the "last battle," when the Angel of Darkness and his army would be destroyed. This is likewise expressed in the Manual of Discipline (1QS 3:20–22), "In the hand of the Prince of Light is the dominion of all the sons of righteousness… and in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the dominion of the sons of evil." Some have supposed that the Prince of Light was Uriel but others think he was Michael, for he is described in the War Scroll (1QM 17:6) as being sent by God in "eternal light" (cf. Dan. 10:13, "Behold Michael, one of the leading princes has come"). Christ is the Prince of light The Angel of Darkness seems to have been Belial: "But for corruption you have made Belial, an angel of hatred and his dominion is in darkness" (1QM 13:11). Belial is a term occurring in the Hebrew Bible which later became personified as the devil in Jewish and Christian texts. Alternate spellings include Baalial, Balial, Belhor, Beliall, Beliar, Berial, Bylyl and Beliya'al. WikipediaBaal / Beelzebub / the leader of the shedim - archon----------------------------------- Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, Shows that other elohiym powers (false gods) exist, and that God is jealous for true supremacy.YEP – false gods / pseudo-gods / non-God gods / other gods – archon all of them
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2021 16:03:00 GMT -5
Oh I see, you dismiss the word "Angels" as a Jewish mistake in writing, they are archon and demi-god archons, shedim, demons or devils, not fallen angels... OK I see.
Now wonder the Jewish writings are confusing to me also Dave.
I would rather stick to the Hebrew the Hebrews wrote.
So are there any midrash or talmud comments on Ezekiel 28 at all by the Jews? Or is this passage off limits, like Daniel prophecies of the messiah?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 14, 2021 17:59:43 GMT -5
Oh I see, you dismiss the word "Angels" as a Jewish mistake in writing, they are archon and demi-god archons, shedim, demons or devils, not fallen angels... OK I see.The word is messenger – it is you that is all tongue tied over words I would rather stick to the Hebrew the Hebrews wrote.No you don't - you want to argue english - the word is messengerSo are there any midrash or talmud comments on Ezekiel 28 at all by the Jews? Or is this passage off limits, like Daniel prophecies of the messiah?Already posted a complete answer just yesterday And 2 yrs agoR" Yeah I get what your'e saying Dave, but does any Jewish talmud or sage speak of the Hebrew passage in Ezekiel about the cherub chata thing? I haven't found any as yet? Are there any midrash or talmud writings on this passage? Jewish Talmud has nothing to do with spiritual JudaismAlready discussed it once before – but let's listen to Rabbi Singer againponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/408/judaism-christianity-satan-rabbi-singerJudaism and Christianity on Satan: Rabbi Singer - video Jewish satan as an obedient servant of God -vrs- a Christian Free Will villain 7:25 – Angels have no Free Will8:40 – Hinduism – neo-monotheism. It has always been mon-thiestic with a Trinity of a god Head. Bahama the Creator, Shiva the Destroyer, and Vishnu who has came as a man twice to impart wisdom and knowledge. They say, their God is one – but has a multitude of faces and they are awaiting the Third coming. 8:50 – All Gnostics are pagan. Jews think Christians pagan – therefore Christian Gnostics = pagan to Jews. Gnostic literature is a compost if many txt from may cultures and much of it is totally pagan. I am a Gnostic Christian than embraces ahl first, agl second, and value of the Gnostic Gospels found within the Nag Hammadi Text, written by the same authors as the agl Canon10:15 – Gnostic Christians were crushed by the Roman church 10:50 - Satan is NOT God’s enemy10:50-13:10 – God created Evil (RA), and why God created the Contest15:30 – Book of Job 16:30 – Satan obeys God 21:45 – you have never sin without make a – CHOICE23:00 – Thank God for satan 26:25 – the archon help us forget the consequence of Sin 27:00 – 1 Chronicles 21:1 -vrs- I Samuael 24:1 28:00 - Isaiah 14 = Babylon 33:20 – Exk 28 = Tyre / USA?This is an interesting thread Dave. So many differences with my own views. Where to begin? Much we have discussed before.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 15:53:13 GMT -5
Greetings Dave.
So if you come across Hebrew word meanings in verses you don't like or don't fit the majority you leave them alone. Fair enough. I am guilty of that myself...not all Scripture makes sense, even to me...
"divers kinds" seems now to refer to GMO, but before this I thought it mean "hybrid kinds"? just one example, some things are not well understood.
Hab 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
'chebyown" meaning? Not a clue. Something came out of Jesus hand during creation....
De 32:11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: 12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. 13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
Why does Scripture say YHWH alone "badad" did lead them, when verses before and after speak of the HS and the Father (flint rock)? Jeff suggests this is more like in a different part of the tent, but not separated from the family tent. Hmm? But there are many such verses, Dave I struggle with, and I am happy to admit this. Hebrew is a difficult language to study.
I feel writing things in poetry was done on purpose so where have different levels of appreciation and understand, variety is OK, as long as we have the same basic understanding of salvation.
I don't mind you calling the rulers of darkness archons Dave, it's a Greek term, the NT was written in Greek, so they say, so feel free.
Your Gnosticism is a different matter, but I will try to investigate this cathar group you speak about who were persecuted for their faith.
Enjoy your day, we are approaching the end of time. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 15, 2021 22:55:50 GMT -5
Greetings Dave. So if you come across Hebrew word meanings in verses you don't like or don't fit the majority you leave them alone. Fair enough. I am guilty of that myself...not all Scripture makes sense, even to me... Scripture does make sense – it just does not fit SDA Catholic Fallen Angel doctrine – or these other SDA vegetarian shark ideasSo the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD? Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 4:30:47 GMT -5
Your strange in your logic Dave
D"Two words from Exk 28 are GOLD - then you try your best to make them true D"You said once – it is error you read scripture as written – you must get the underlying metaphor
R" I never said that. As for "cherub chata" let's try another example:-
Help me out with this verse:-
Le 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
kil'ayim used only in two verses.
When I read this 30 years ago, I could not make out the Lord's commands here.
Any suggestions Dave?
For years I thought it meant no hybrids, not I think it means no GMO.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 16, 2021 9:37:26 GMT -5
D"You said once – it is error you read scripture as written – you must get the underlying metaphor R" I never said that. How can you have the authority to play word games with ancient Hebrew If you don't even know your own native languageQuestion #5 – If 1 Chr 21 if filled with disobedience – ra – and sin with your satan; doesn’t this make your God of 2 Sam 24 disobedient to Himself – doing ra – and sinning?Hmm? You have to read the cause the affect carefully, not read the verses as they are written, because Hebrew does not write in sequenced time, but as Jeff explains block logic. What type of Christian would tell another soul - not read the verses as they are written? I have tried to get you to take our conversation about the Lord seriously – if you want jsut to play games then you need yo up your game – to show scripture some respectYou argue in circles – just to argue - until you eventually end up contradicting yourselfand I have pointed out your various flip flops mmany times I have begged you to pick one theology and stick with it If you were true student – you would admit your embarrassment
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 14:21:17 GMT -5
D"What type of Christian would tell another soul - not read the verses as they are written? R" Jeff Benner tells us to? I suggest you read Jeff Benner some more. No answer about Le 19:19 ? It is one of my food commands Dave? D"I have begged you to pick one theology and stick with it R" I do stick with one theology... so can't you answer Le 19:19 ? Only two verses, so easy to study, surely the Jews have answers to this verse? D" You argue in circles – just to argue - until you eventually end up contradicting yourself R" Really? That is a big thing you say? spiritualsprings.org/ss-1126.htmMy breakfast today, sweet potatoes from our own garden. Notice they are brown already and this is healthy fresh food, as soon as you peel them they go brown, as soon as you eat them they go brown. This is how fresh food should be, no preservatives and no spoiling chemicals inside. Healthy food. The potatoes from Wickham Farms are soaked in Postassium Nitrate to stop the bacteria spoiling your food. This is deception, bacteria should spoil food immediately as your are eating it, that it what good health is about. Eating food fresh has taken for me a different view of things. We have developed God's food view the wrong way round. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 16, 2021 18:36:27 GMT -5
No answer about Le 19:19 ? It is one of my food commands Dave? ... so can't you answer Le 19:19 ?I know you want to change the subject – it is your tacticI have put a more serious question before you Can you explain your disingenuous actions? Are you capable of having an honest academic discussion or not?HAVE I MADE MY POINT CLEAR TO YOU ROBERT?YOU ARE PLAYING A GAME WITH ME - I DO NOT THINK DISCUSSIONS OF THE LORD OR GOD'S WORD A GAME OR SOMETHING TO BE MOCKED WITH IRREVERENCEIrreverence - a lack of respect for people or things that are generally taken seriously.Where is your academic credibility, integrity, honesty, or respect? - Christian? D"You said once – it is error you read scripture as written – you must get the underlying metaphor R" I never said that. How can you have the authority to play word games with ancient Hebrew If you don't even know your own native languageQuestion #5 – If 1 Chr 21 if filled with disobedience – ra – and sin with your satan; doesn’t this make your God of 2 Sam 24 disobedient to Himself – doing ra – and sinning?Hmm? You have to read the cause the affect carefully, not read the verses as they are written, because Hebrew does not write in sequenced time, but as Jeff explains block logic. What type of Christian would tell another soul - not read the verses as they are written? I have tried to get you to take our conversation about the Lord seriously – if you want just to play games then you need to up your game – to show scripture some respectYou argue in circles – just to argue - until you eventually end up contradicting yourselfand I have pointed out your various flip flops mmany times I have begged you to pick one theology and stick with it If you were true student – you would admit your embarrassment D"What type of Christian would tell another soul - not read the verses as they are written? R" Jeff Benner tells us to? I suggest you read Jeff Benner some more. I am confused – did you say it or didn’t you say it? – Do you support your own statement or don’t you? Do you mean it – or don’t you mean it?Where is your academic credibility, integrity, honesty, or respect? - Christian?Can you explain your disingenuous actions?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2021 4:41:31 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Have a read of Jeff Benner's website. I might have grow up as a SDA person, but as I matured from milk to meat, as the KJV puts it, Jeff Benner has influenced more than anybody else//// Why? He sees as I see languages do not have much polysemy I also like the Ancient Hebrew He put together He presents Hebrew thought nicely. I know you want to change the subject – it is your tacticI have put a more serious question before you Can you explain your disingenuous actions? Are you capable of having an honest academic discussion or not?HAVE I MADE MY POINT CLEAR TO YOU ROBERT?Irreverence - a lack of respect for people or things that are generally taken seriously.Where is your academic credibility, integrity, honesty, or respect? - Christian?
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Post by Dave on Aug 17, 2021 6:52:34 GMT -5
Robert – I have been dead serious with you And you repay me by playing some game just to corrupt and cast doubt
Can you explain to me why you think scripture is something to be mocked and played with? Can you explain to me why your respect for me or this forum is wanting?
I have tried to challenge you to up your game – take this conversation ore seriously To take the convesation to a higher level - and you revert to more game play You choose to mock me – mock the lord – refuse to answer questions – and post complete garbage just to say – it isn’t your view and you do not even support what you post.
You post garbage – then accuse me of supporting it – just because it has a Gnostic label
Your god satan must be so proud of you that you cause so much disruption in so many religious circles Well done my good and faithful servant
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2021 14:03:47 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
We have discussed many topics together, you and I over the years now, some 1300 posts, the major theme was about the fact that SIN originated from a cherub who sinned first before man, not from GOD who intentionally created a creature with RA in mind, who we both agree can be called an archon, a ruler of darkness. We both agree there are in fact archonic rulers of darkness, but we do not agree about the origin of these archon rulers of darkness.
In fact the biggest stumbling block to any Christian converting to Gnostic beliefs as I have read from the Internet and from you, is the idea that GOD created a flawed universe, that natural RA exists, meat eating carnivores, meat eating sharks, natural decomposing from trees, naturally dying animals, all existed long before Adam sinned. This idea is wrong for several reasons.
(1) God is absolutely perfect and would not put up with entropy, or friction, or chaos, or anything that is not totally functional. To even suggest this idea, makes GOD weak, imperfect and unable to rise above imperfection.
(2) You create another death term that is natural dying, as well as a death term for Adam who sinned, whereas the Bible does not define death in natural terms like this. All of creation experienced death when Adam sinned, because God cursed the ground, the source from which all things depend.
(3) You have the idea that it is OK for GOD to create RA creatures on purpose, and this is OK. Such an idea also destroys the word SIN, and you get around this by saying only man has free will, so the Sin problem really can be about man, not about archons who sin, or dumb animals who sin, because these creatures while they might do RA, do not actually sin because they have no free will to choose GOD, so are doing what GOD programmed them to do.
(4) You agree the serpent deceived Eve in the garden, maybe even lied?? But it is OK for a serpent to do this because that is what the serpent was created for, to test or tempt man to break his free will, and sin. I do not get the idea of why a sinless GOD with sinless Adam and Eve, all with perfectly functional love, would require a creature to break free will, by choosing to be dysfunctional, and thus sin? You simply posted Gnostic writings, it is the Father's wish to bring glory....not much of a reason... I mean slapping your wife's cheek every day and than loving her afterwards, is this supposed to make her love you more?
There is no need for testing or tempting, once we have sinless humans, in fact the free will thing you speak of is also unnecessary. We just bask in the love of GOD forever... just as angels have, but you assume they do not have free will either.
(5) You seem to think God is weak when one of his creatures sinned long ago? So when Eve sinned first according to you, did this make God weak? Surely God must have cried when Eve sinned, and Adam sinned. And so now we have millions of humans, the only creatures with free will all disobeying God, 9/10 of them sinning, does this not concern you that GOD is weak and unable to make humans love GOD correctly?
And yet when I suggest this same problem also happened in heaven and GOD lost 2/3 of the angels to sin, you say God is weak, and this opposing angel is strong? I don't see your logic, when on earth is the same war GOD had with the war in heaven over his angels.
You get around this by saying the devil has messengers (aggelos) not angels, so the angels do not sin. But in Luke 1:19, and 26 Gabriel comes by name as a messenger (aggelos). Surely Jews and Christians do not consider Gabriel just some undefined creature in heaven without free will? Gabriel is a cherub, an angel.
D"You post garbage – then accuse me of supporting it – just because it has a Gnostic label
R" Dave the torah scriptures is a much more reliable source for truth. I do not have to pick and choose which verse to read or reject. Sure the Hebrew verses may have some difficulties for others reading them, Jeff explains Hebrews write in block logic, so Western readers may miss this, but this is NOT a problem with the language, it's a problem with Greek thinking readers reading the Hebrew. There are no errors in the Scripture, that I have found, sure a few human lapses in memory, a few typos, a few problems over historical accounts about Jesus' birth, but no errors in the messages from GOD. Humans wrote the Scriptures using the inspiration from the HS, in the language of man. Therefore I do not have to seek supplementary readings from Gnostic sources. If I have trouble reading the Hebrew, I may use Ellen White or Jeff Benner or some other scholar, but generally I use only the common received books that the disciples chose to use in their days from AD55.
D"Can you explain to me why you think scripture is something to be mocked and played with?
R" Mocked with? I do not mock Scripture. Take for example our battle over the meaning of kathestemi.
To me the term refers to the idea of establishing a person to become a ruler.
But you do not like my simple child like way to doing this.... too childish you say... not correct....
Perhaps you could email Jeff Benner for me and ask him, what is the Hebrew equivalent for kathestemi in Greek.
Would he not say shalliyt from Genesis 42:6 ?
It's funny you finally admitted that archon means a ruler over the darkness. Same idea as kathestemi, a ruler who rules over you. But you didn't like that idea much either. You say the archons do not rule mankind, they just trip you into worldly ideas. What is demon possession of humans than, archons ruling humans?
D" Robert – I have been dead serious with you And you repay me by playing some game just to corrupt and cast doubt
R" In a walk with GOD doesn't doctrines matter, for your walking with God may cause you to wander off the track?
Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Wine is a poetry simile for doctrines, and the whole world is confused by the Babylonian system of Confusion, also in their language known as the Gateway to Heaven.
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Doctrines matter, getting truth correct is serious.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
We need to be careful we are not follow traditions of men.
1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Yes the seducing spirits and doctrines of the rulers of darkness.
But you say GOD is the creator of both light and darkness?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, God is firstly and always naturally LIGHT, in HIM there is no darkness.
Isa 45:7 I create darkness: Obviously darkness does not normally exist with GOD because God has to create darkness.
These ideas are paralleled to tov and ra.
God is normally and naturally always TOV, ie functional.
GOD is not associated with darkness or RA, these things are dysfunctional. SO Why does GOD reluctantly create these things? Because so SIN wants them to exist. And SIN only comes from creatures who are sinless, but want to sin, because of their free will.
This is why the Scriptures say
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
Who was perfect? Both man and cherub.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,
WHo became proud? Both man and cherub.
Verse 15 and thou hast sinned: .. and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
And who sinned in verse 15, specifically the cherub sinned, but we also know man sins too.
Sure the poetry metaphor is about man, but it's also about cherubs. It says so in Hebrew.
This is why there was a war in heaven over the cherubs.
The same problem as GOD is having on earth, with man.
God saved over 3 million Hebrews in the Exodus, how many walked into the promised land? Only 2. Why that makes God weak and unable to save humans, you say...How come they failed?
More importantly why couldn't God save them unto perfection?
Maybe the free will is super strong, or there is an enemy who trips the humans daily? A creature who opposes GOD so God cannot save humans so easily?
My views are stable and logical Dave, you can read them in our website any time you like, they exist in published form, years before I met you. You can study how I read Scripture there, and how I understand the words I read, and the fuzzy translations issues at times.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 17, 2021 15:29:24 GMT -5
STILL NO STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM YOU - WHY IS THAT ROBERT?
In fact the biggest stumbling block to any Christian converting to Gnostic beliefs as I have read from the Internet and from you, is the idea that GOD created a flawed universe, that natural RA exists, meat eating carnivores, meat eating sharks, natural decomposing from trees, naturally dying animals, all existed long before Adam sinned. This idea is wrong for several reasons.
A Christian converting to Gnostic beliefs Can you explain this to me – you treat Judaism or First Century Messianic Judaism as separate and different religions – from your SDA religion Why is that?
is the idea that GOD created a flawed universe, that natural RA exists Yes Robert ra exist – why do you call God’s creation flawed It is not a Jewish belief or a Messianic Christian belief The idea that God created mistakes and error is an SDA teaching
Your God tried to make a tov would – but was weaker than your satan god who changed all God's creation and God's Plan against God’s Will My God is absolute and created everything for a purpose – Col 1:16 - even the powers and arhcon = for Him by Him I will never deny scripture
You create another death term that is natural dying, as well as a death term for Adam who sinned, Yes Robert there are two death – one of mortality thanks to Eve – and one of spirit at the Great White Throne judgment - that is up to you – your choice
You have the idea that it is OK for GOD to create RA creatures on purpose I do not consider God’s creation flawed – if there are ants at a picnic it is all part of God’s nature and the delicate balance that only reflect the intelligent designer – the One True Creator My God is absolute and created everything for a purpose – Col 1:16 - even the powers and arhcon = for Him by Him I will never deny scripture
You agree the serpent deceived Eve in the garden, maybe even lied?? But it is OK for a serpent to do this because that is what the serpent was created for, to test or tempt man to break his free will, and sin. Fact – God test his people – I do not deny scripture as you choose you do Fact – God does not do it directly - he has nature for that – created things – animals – ants and archon Fact – sometimes – those messengers that test us are invisible spirits (archon) Fact – sometimes those – messengers that test us are just other men – at the command of men – who are manipulated by men – who are manipulated by the invisible archon
I do not get the idea of why a sinless GOD with sinless Adam and Eve, all with perfectly functional love, would require a creature to break free will, by choosing to be dysfunctional, and thus sin Fact – God test his people – I do not deny scripture as you choose you do
I say and the Jews say – it is all God’s creation = God’s Plan / God’s Will You teach that a created being by God – rose up and changed all of God’s plan against God’s Will
So you teach – God cannot know the future – God did not know the future So your satan god actually deceived God But you claim you would never diminish God - sure
I teach God is omniscient – of course God knew what choice Eve would make So why didn’t God prevent it – why did God allow it to happen Because it is God’s Will / God’s Plan – no one else’s
Exo 20:11 For in six days Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Thus Adonai blessed Yom Shabbat, and made it holy.
Psa 104:1 Bless Adonai, O my soul. Adonai my God, You are very great! You are clothed with splendor and majesty— Psa 104:2 wrapping Yourself in light as a robe, stretching out heaven like a curtain, Psa 104:3 laying beams for His upper rooms in waters, making the clouds His chariot, walking on the wings of the wind, Psa 104:4 making His angels spirits, His servants a flaming fire. Psa 104:5 He set the earth upon its foundations, so it should not totter forever and ever. Psa 104:6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment—the waters standing above the mountains. (Your Feel Good God of Tov only - killed everyine save 8 + zillions of animals)
Psa 104:7 At Your rebuke the waters fled. At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. Psa 104:8 The waters go up the mountains, then down to the valleys—to the place that You assigned to them. Psa 104:9 You set a boundary to the waters that they may not cross over, so they may not return to cover the earth.
Psa 104:10 You make springs gush into the valleys. They run between the mountains. (Oops - according to Robert High pressure waters breaking through to the surface is a ra)
Psa 104:11 They give drink to all the beasts of the field—the wild donkeys quench their thirst. Psa 104:12 Beside them the birds of the sky dwell—they sing among the branches. (I wonder - all of Roberts animals did not eat before Adam - did they drink? If it was a sin to BE FRUITFULL AND MYLTIPLY - was a sin to piss on the ground?) Psa 104:13 He waters mountains from His upper rooms. The earth is full of the fruit of Your labors. (Oops - Roberts call snow sin)
Psa 104:14 He causes grass to spring up for the cattle, and vegetation for man to cultivate, to bring forth bread out of the earth, (how do you cultivate with causing ra - to the weeds or the ground?)
Psa 104:15 wine that makes man’s heart glad, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains man’s heart. (Oops - wine - Robert's god is such a sinner)
Psa 104:16 The trees of Adonai are satisfied, the cedars of Lebanon that He planted, Psa 104:17 where birds make their nests, and the stork—her home is the fir trees. Psa 104:18 The high mountains are for wild goats, the cliffs a refuge for rock badgers. Psa 104:19 He made the moon for appointed times, the sun knows its going down. Psa 104:20 You bring darkness, so it becomes night, when all the beasts of the forest prowl. Psa 104:21 The young lions roar for prey, seeking their food from God. (lions? - food from God? - sin and ra from God)
Psa 104:22 But when the sun rises, they gather and lie down in their dens. Psa 104:23 Man goes out to his work, and to his labor until the evening. (YES - Thank You Eve = Gen 3:15)
Psa 104:24 Adonai, how countless are Your works! In wisdom You made them all—the earth is full of Your creatures. (Scripture must be wrong - Roberst says 1/3rd of the creaturs were recreated by satan - because his god cannot create archon - only satan can - so is more powerful Robert's god or Robbert's satan)
Psa 104:25 There is the sea, vast and wide, teeming with gliding things innumerable, living creatures, both small and large. Psa 104:26 There, ships go to and fro. Leviathan—You formed to frolic there. (Dinos? - no they had to created by satan - or they never existed)
There is no need for testing or tempting, once we have sinless humans Anyone claiming to be a sinless human is a bold face liar worse than the archon
You get around this by saying the devil has messengers (aggelos) not angels, so the angels do not sin. But in Luke 1:19, and 26 Gabriel comes by name as a messenger (aggelos Look everyone – it is a Robert word game
D"You post garbage – then accuse me of supporting it – just because it has a Gnostic label R" Dave the torah scriptures is a much more reliable source for truth. Do you deny your own irreverence?
D"Can you explain to me why you think scripture is something to be mocked and played with? R" Mocked with? I do not mock Scripture. Take for example our battle over the meaning of kathestemi.
To me the term refers to the idea of establishing a person to become a ruler. But you do not like my simple child like way to doing this.... too childish you say... not correct.... Agree your teaching is ERROR – FLAWED – WRONG .... too childish you say... not correct....
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(kathestemi) = were made = verb – past tense plural Were made what? = sinners, the direct object
(kathestemi) many be made= verb – future perfect tense plural Will be made what? = righteous
(kathestemi) = verd – to make – to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
To me the term refers to the idea of establishing a person to become a ruler. That would be (kathestemi archon)
Perhaps you could email Jeff Benner for me and ask him, what is the Hebrew equivalent for kathestemi in Greek. Would he not say shalliyt from Genesis 42:6 ?
Look everyone another Robert word game G746 - ἀρχή - (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): Chief / first in time – as you argued yourself for many posts Gen 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ Let’s try your Robert method = In the GOVENOR God created the heavens and earth
Archon used as first in rank of a nation / country / province = governor Yes – Jess Brenner is correct – it is only you that are so confused You spent many post arguing that archon could only mean in the beginning – you said there is no way it means entries of darkness You argued against Jeff Brenner definition for months – now you post his definition as fact
D" Robert – I have been dead serious with you And you repay me by playing some game just to corrupt and cast doubt Doctrines matter, getting truth correct is serious. Man made doctrine outweigh the word of God? Are you sure you want to admit this?
We need to be careful we are not follow traditions of men. You just declared that man-made doctrine is greater than scripture – so your words have no meaning
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Post by Dave on Aug 18, 2021 12:05:42 GMT -5
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(kathestemi) = were made = verb – past tense plural Were made what? = sinners, the direct object
(kathestemi) many be made= verb – future perfect tense plural Will be made what? = righteous
(kathestemi) = verd – to make – to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
To me the term refers to the idea of establishing a person to become a ruler. That would be (kathestemi archon)
Act 7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who (made thee ruler) a ruler (archon) and a judge over us?
Act 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he (made him ruler) governor (hēgeomai) over Egypt and all his house.
Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who (made thee ruler) a ruler (archon) and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
(kathestemi) = verd – to make – to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 4:43:52 GMT -5
D" Can you explain this to me – you treat Judaism or First Century Messianic Judaism as separate and different religions – from your SDA religion Why is that?R" I do ? examples please? Did Jesus follow all the traditions and precepts of the Jews in His day? I follow the Hebrew way, which means to cross over, to follow and support Jesus, my Saviour. D" Yes Robert ra exist – why do you call God’s creation flawed It is not a Jewish belief or a Messianic Christian beliefR" so RA is not dysfunctional than? the opposite of functional? Please understand what Jeff Benner is saying. Tov and RA are opposite word meanings. Perfection to me means all functional. A plane has 5 million parts of TOV functionally designed to fly in the air of RA, which includes some natural ra. Question: How does GOD fly ? Does He travel with some ra?Ps 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. God rides in his cherub creatures who are carried by the winds of the medium (HS). Not a single mention of atmosphere, or matter, but only divinity moves the divinity and his creatures of matter. True perfection would not include natural ra. I look forward to the radio or the TV that does use electricity that never runs down, due to zero electrical resistance. I look forward to being carried by the HS every time I walk. Because friction will not exist in perfection. Is this utopia alien to your thinking Dave? D" My God is absolute and created everything for a purpose – Col 1:16 - even the powers and arhcon = for Him by Him I will never deny scriptureR" I do not deny Scripture either Dave. Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities (arche) , or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: I agree that the arche were created by GOD in the beginning. Scripture says so right here Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, You suggest these archon (rulers) are shedim and devils and demons are products of archons mating with humans forming demi-god like elohiym powers that oppose GOD, according to Gen 6. But the Scripture has a different source of the opposing elohiym power, a cherub who sinned. I too will never deny scripture. But you ignore this verse, and other verses that build from this. D" Yes Robert there are two death – one of mortality thanks to Eve – and one of spirit at the Great White Throne judgment - that is up to you – your choiceR" No Dave, you preach there are three deaths. One is the natural death of animals experiencing natural ra. So you are saying Adam might have naturally died due to his inherit ra? Than there is the loss of immmortality What happened when Adam sinned. Than there is the loss of existence, the second death in the Lake of Fire. D" I do not consider God’s creation flawed – if there are ants at a picnic it is all part of God’s nature and the delicate balance that only reflect the intelligent designer – the One True CreatorR" You do not consider ants crawling over your picnic dysfunctional? If we lived in heaven in perfection we could talk to the ants using our pineal gland and ask them to wait for our crumbs they are welcome to, and everybody is happy. In fact a free will talk to ants would be nice, since you say ants have no free will to communicate. D" Fact – God test his people – I do not deny scripture as you choose you doR" Love in a sinless world never has to test the loving response. Don't you get that Dave? If God needed to test a love response, it's because some sinning was already in the Garden of Eden. The two trees of elohiym power, you also ignore? D" Fact – God does not do it directly - he has nature for that – created things – animals – ants and archonR" SO God created RA to make our world dysfunctional and well as functional? What does Genesis say Dave? Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. Not a single mention of ra. D" Fact – sometimes – those messengers that test us are invisible spirits (archon)R" They do not test us Dave, they tempt us to sin. You twist the positive meaning of the Hebrew, where its negative meaning is understood. Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: D" Fact – sometimes those – messengers that test us are just other men – at the command of men – who are manipulated by men – who are manipulated by the invisible archonR" so shedim possession, or demon possession is just mere manipulation by the invisible archon? Rp" I do not get the idea of why a sinless GOD with sinless Adam and Eve, all with perfectly functional love, would require a creature to break free will, by choosing to be dysfunctional, and thus sinD" Fact – God test his people R" That is not answering my question Dave. Slapping your wife's face daily will not make her love you more deeply every day. Yet this kind of abusive love happens to many marriages. Sure Dave, your view is flawed. D "I teach God is omniscient – of course God knew what choice Eve would make So why didn’t God prevent it – why did God allow it to happen Because it is God’s WillR" I thought Eve had free will, so how can GOD prevent it? ?? – why did God allow it to happen, Because it is God’s Will? ? Is it not God's will for love to respond freely...? without force or influence Dave? Does slapping a wife, make her respond to the husband out of love or out of fear? D" Psa 104:13 He waters mountains from His upper rooms. The earth is full of the fruit of Your labors. (Oops - Roberts call snow sin)R" You are quoting a world with RA in it already Dave, because adam sinned and God cursed the ground. Mountains did not exist in the perfect world of Eden, maybe hills did, but not jagged mountains. Neither did snow or rain. --------------------------------------------------- D" Agree your teaching is ERROR – FLAWED – WRONG .... too childish you say... not correct.... D"Look everyone another Robert word game D" Let’s try your Robert method = In the GOVENOR God created the heavens and earthR" wow Dave, you are using the wrong Hebrew word. governor = shalliyt Gen 42:6 beginning = re'shiyth Gen 1:1 What are you presenting here Dave? ------------------------------------- Rp" To me the term refers to the idea of establishing a person to become a ruler.D" T hat would be (kathestemi archon)R" I see. So kathestemi just means "to establish" and archon means a "ruler"? OK Mt 25:21 ...I will make <kathistemi> thee <se> ruler <kathistemi> over <epi>... Mt 25:21 .....se katasthsw eiselqe eiV....... Textus Receptus I see my electronic Bible software left out "eiselqe" Mt 24:45 ....hath made ruler over .... Mt 24:45 ....on katesthsen o kurioV autou epi.... I see my electronic Bible software left out " o kurioV " I owe you an apology Dave for my electronic Bible software is rather poor in its making interlinear words for the Greek, and leaves out important Greek words. I am rather mad about this discovery and will have to rewrite entire webpages, plus abandon maybe even whole doctrinal themes, or at least change them. God inspired me to purchase this simple electronic software many years ago, but I see now it's not perfect enough to use for those seeking deeper levels of truth. I like the Power CD Bible software because it would seek Greek or Hebrew words and list all verses for you, but now I discovered this software does not do interlinear very well, rather poorly in fact. So it seems "kathestemi" means to establish. You are correct. So this dramatically weakens Romans 5:19. Thanks for posting this "That would be (kathestemi archon)" I now see my error, is caused by faulty software on the part of my programmer Phil LIndner 2003. Shalom
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