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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 14:42:10 GMT -5
D"There are 46 other text listed within scripotyre as credible sources credible information The Jews respect it all – you say it is all false because Rome says so R" OH we have a problem here Houston. So the Common received text is a Rome edit, is it?
Prove this to me Dave.
Is not the torah of Moses the same scrolls the Jews have?
Are we not supposed to study the Books of Moses first?
Does not the Books of Moses speak of two powers during Creation?
Yes, two trees. two powers.
One tree had a talking rebellious leader who entered into a flying serpent to talk Eve into sinning.
In order to establish if this tree is bad, and thus a sinful tree, we need only ask did the serpent sin by lying to Eve, so she could sin with the serpent?
You say the serpent did not sin.
I say the serpent did sin.
The words of Moses are clear to me. This is not some Rome edit, as you claim. God created two trees in Eden, one tree was bad, and called tov/Ra
This bad tree had a leader attached to it, a serpent, who could talk of sin, lying and murder.
So you call Jesus a liar?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
This latter rain torah reference has to fit here in the second tree, otherwise Scripture is too complex for simple minds. What does Jesus say about the BEING behind the serpent. He is a liar, a murderer from the beginning.
You make things so complicated, that there are maybe three beast powers, all of different origin. God created two trees, one tree represented GOD, the other tree represented the opponent. Simple.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 5, 2021 17:03:39 GMT -5
D"There are 46 other text listed within scripture as credible sources credible information The Jews respect it all – you say it is all false because Rome says so R" OH we have a problem here Houston. So the Common received text is a Rome edit, is it? Prove this to me Dave.After the destruction of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D., with increasing persecution from the Romans and competition of new writings from among the newly formed Christian Church, the Jewish leaders came together and declared its official canon of Scripture, eliminating seven books from the Septuagint. These books that were removed are called the Apocrypha. These books are Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), the Wisdom of Solomon, First and Second Maccabees, the two Books of Esdras, additions to the Book of Esther, additions to the Book of Daniel, and the Prayer of Manasseh. You can find copies of these online at apocrypha.org/ or you can order them through any bookstore. There were other books that are not included in our modern day version of the Old Testament but were referred directly by name. They are often referred to as the "lost books of the bible". Many of these books really have been lost to time, history and the destruction of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. When reading the Old Testament have you ever thought to yourself what are they talking about when they say "is it not written in the book of" or "written in the book of" and cited a reference, but you just didn't know what they are or where to find them? Here are where these books are cited and the name of the "missing" scroll/book. Exodus 24:7 cites the Book of the Covenant. This book may possibly be included in Exodus 2-23. Numbers 21:14 cites the Book of the Wars of the Lord. Missing. There is also a Book of Wars included in the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is not the same book; however it is a very detailed military account of the future battle of Armageddon. Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18 cites The Book of Jasher. Several versions of this book exist and it is hard to know which copy and/or translation can be determined to be authentic, however, they are worth a read. 1 Chronicles 27:24 cites The Book of the Annals of King David. 1 Chronicles 29:29 cites The Book of Gad. 1 Chronicles 29:29 and 2 Chronicles 9:29 cites The Book of Nathan. 2 Chronicles 9:29 cites The Book of Abijah. 2 Chronicles 12:15 cites The Book of Shemaiah and The book of Iddo. 2 Chronicles 20:34 cites The Book of Jehu and The Book of the Kings of Israel. 2 Chronicles 33:19 cites The Sayings of the Seer's. Malachi 3:16 cites The Book of Remembrance. This is not the Complete list – there are 46 all togetherIt may intrigue you to know that throughout the world there are quite a few versions of what is considered Holy Scripture. For instance, it is not just the Catholic bible that includes a few more books than our Protestant bible. The Catholic Bible has 7 more books in the Old Testament that include Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch. The Greek Orthodox Bible includes these and four more; these additions are called 1 Esdra (a.k.a. Ezra), 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees and Psalm 151. And in addition to the books included in the Roman Catholic Bible and Greek Orthodox Bible, the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible includes Enoch, Jubilees, 3 Ezra, and 4 Ezra. Many of these books mentioned above are known as the Apocrypha or what is also known as the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament. Books like Enoch, Jubilees, 3 Ezra and 4 Ezra can be found online or in a translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls. All these books were widely read and distributed throughout the early church. Jude, a New Testament writer, refers to Enoch in Jude 1:14 and his prophecies. You can find The Book of Enoch at www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm. Already mentioned, Enoch is also considered scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and was returned to us, the western world, by a travel writer named James Bruce. He returned from Ethiopia in 1773 with three copies of Enoch. It should be mentioned here that the Dead Sea Scrolls were around during the time of Jesus and most likely were selected as a place to hide many scrolls following the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are copies of many of the Old Testament books, some of the Apocryphal texts, Enoch, Jubilees, The Book of Giants, Book of Noah, Book of Patriarchs, books of wisdom, prayers, liturgical texts, hymns, blessings and general rules for the community. Also, found among these scrolls is the famous copper scroll that describes hidden treasures. All the books of the Dead Sea Scrolls should be read if you really want to be a serious truth seeker. Jesus did NOT include the Synoptic or Gnostic Gospels as scripture because, obviously, it had not been written yet either. What we have learned here today is that Jesus knew of and considered all of the TANAK as scripture. He may also have read and considered other sources as scripture because at this time there were many manuscripts in circulation. This is not the Complete list – there are many more seen as commentaryIs not the torah of Moses the same scrolls the Jews have? Are we not supposed to study the Books of Moses first?2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for restoration, and for training in righteousness, And the Jews or the Copts didn't burn any out of existeance ot kill people for reading it They saved it all - respected it all So the Common received text is a Rome edit, is it? Prove this to me Dave.Where do you think the Roman Canon come from? Utah? Russia, Australia?1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 1Th 5:21 but test all things, hold fast to what is good, One tree had a talking rebellious leader who entered into a flying serpent to talk Eve into sinning. In order to establish if this tree is bad, and thus a sinful tree, we need only ask did the serpent sin by lying to Eve, so she could sin with the serpent? God created two trees in Eden, one tree was bad, and called tov/RaGod never called it a bad tree – a tree of raGen 2:16 Then Adonai Elohim commanded the man saying, “From all the trees of the garden you are most welcome to eat. Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. God never called it a bad tree – a tree of ra - But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and EvilYou say the serpent did not sin.Gen 3:13 Adonai Elohim said to the woman, “What did you do?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me and I ate.” Eve says the serpent deceived1 King 22 a volunteer spirit agrees to be a deceiving spirit for the Lord You have failed to answer why you think it a sin to serve the LordJoh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, YEP – The Devil is of the Beast and the Serpent Race – just like satanas – Rev 12 – your favorite verseWhat was the lie? = I am First there is none other than me – SELF What is the murder – Entropy –Rev 12:3 … a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 … so that whenever she gave birth he might devour … You make things so complicated, that there are maybe three beast powers, all of different origin.NOPE – all Rev 12:3 the Beast and his army – satanas’s seed / offspring – seed of the Beastoffspring – on a spiritual / invisible level – other gods, Baal, Molech, Dogon, Allah, evil spirits, shedim, archon, Jinn, demons = invisible archon – devils, which are termed satanas of Chaldean origin in the agl offspring – in a visible level bane elohiym at times / shedim at times, Jinn at times, archon at times, shapeshifters, demons, Aliens and UFOs – interdimensional visitors – devils, satanas of Chaldean origin in the agl – Principalities offspring on the human level – bae elohiym + women = Nephilim = Rephiem + satyrs = Amorite and Goliath = 13 Families and the Global Beast of the system – one WORLD government under the ruler of the WORLD
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2021 16:39:42 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, Happy Sabbath
Nicely presented. Yes there are other books mentioned in the torah, not found there. However I trust the Jews who selected the torah books were in fact holy and right before the Lord. Detail to me who this authority was, and how the common received books came about?
This is similar to this principle:
Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Perhaps the Jews, some right before the Lord, decided to make a smaller selection of Books as the Common Received Text. Do we need additional books to ascertain all the major truths of the Lord? I don't think so.
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Regarding your presentation of the beast power in the Garden.. is interesting...
You link the word deceive that Eve said, to the lying medium, who so called volunteered for the Lord, Hence you say it is OK to sin and deceive if the Lord asks you to?
Let's explore this idea?
Ge 3:13 And the woman said , The serpent beguiled me <nasha'>, and I did eat .
What does this word mean?
"Seed over the nations is pressed strong" The idea of pressing strongly, as to make you stressed from debt.
Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. 16 ¶ As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Here nasha is paralleled to death and salvation, the pressing strongly of the debt of death.
1Ki 22:22 ... I will be a lying <sheqer> spirit <ruwach>
You make a link to the same idea, not even the same word, or the same agency.
What is sheqer?
"Pressing over the horizon (unknown) head" comes in both verb and noun forms.
Means to lie.
Ps 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. 10 ¶ My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart. 11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. 12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. 13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors. 14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.
This passage gives major clues. First the RA of the wicked comes to an end. He who causes mischief, born lies.
What is this mischief?
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow <'acown>, Hmm? not the same Hebrew word....
"Strong thorns secured over the nations" to Harm...
Thorns is typically a simile of sin...but is also use to turn, or protect??
OK Dave, I will give it to you, the words in Hebrew are not easy to identify...
Eve saw herself into a debt of death by eating the forbidden fruit.
The lying medium is not linked so easily as you suggest. Neither is the idea of mischief. But this deceiving power does born lies.
SO on the balance of probabilities, I think the serpent did lie to Eve and thus make her experience a debt of death.
Now you ask is this GOD wanting a sinless person to be a sinning person?
In 1 Kings 22, God is asking a different question, who shall help this sinning person to do more sinning?
I do not see these themes as related.
Also the word volunteer is not in the text.
Unpack this sentence to me?
Eve says "Ge 3:3 lest ye die. <muwth>"
Satan replies "Ge 3:4 Ye shall not surely die:<muwth><muwth>"
Both are speaking of different things. Eve says <muwth> once, but Satan says <muwth> twice.
The serpent has to be borning lies here. Jesus said in the beginning the devil borns lies, and is the Father of lies.
When you do harm (mischief) do you experience <muwth><muwth> ? Yes
You are in Exodus 21, to give eternal living for eternal living. Therefore <muwth><muwth> or eternal death is the consequence for harm.
Eve got the message of GOD wrong saying you only <muwth>, in fact you <muwth><muwth>.
What is important is the serpent negates God's words, saying you do not <muwth><muwth>. This is a lie.
When Adam and Eve missed God's power, all kinds of things began to cease to not exist....<muwth><muwth> is not immediate, it is gradual.
1) God shrank from them, exposing their nakedness 2) Humans blame others as self and pride enter 3) The serpent lies again, but gains entry into the fabric of man's DNA. While the angels can sin and return to GOD, but choose not to, mankind cannot, because the DNA experiences harm from the temptor, and thus mankind is inherited with corrupted flesh. 4) The penalty for this is eternal non existence.
Enjoy your Sabbath, it's cold here, 13 degrees. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 6, 2021 22:17:56 GMT -5
Yes there are other books mentioned in the torah, not found there. However I trust the Jews who selected the torah books were in fact holy and right before the Lord. Detail to me who this authority was, and how the common received books came about?
You are playing a game I have always talked about the totality od scripture You began claiming the received text – which for every other Bible student on the planet means the 66 book of the ahl + agl Now you talk about the Torah as the received text
So who knows what you mean – you change definition in the middle of a conversation just to spoil the conversation
As for the complicated process of organizing the Roman Canon – read a book / or take a class Stop speaking from ignorance - it shows
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2021 15:59:20 GMT -5
D" Stop speaking from ignorance - it shows
R" I am not ignorant Dave, I simply postulating that maybe God saw fit to reduce the numbers of books for Christian Gentiles. Have you considered this idea?
You didn't answer the rest of my post Dave?
Regarding your presentation of the beast power in the Garden.. is interesting...
You link the word deceive that Eve said, to the lying medium, who so called volunteered for the Lord, Hence you say it is OK to sin and deceive if the Lord asks you to?
Let's explore this idea?
Ge 3:13 And the woman said , The serpent beguiled me <nasha'>, and I did eat .
What does this word mean?
"Seed over the nations is pressed strong" The idea of pressing strongly, as to make you stressed from debt.
Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. 16 ¶ As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Here nasha is paralleled to death and salvation, the pressing strongly of the debt of death.
1Ki 22:22 ... I will be a lying <sheqer> spirit <ruwach>
You make a link to the same idea, not even the same word, or the same agency.
What is sheqer?
"Pressing over the horizon (unknown) head" comes in both verb and noun forms.
Means to lie.
Ps 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. 10 ¶ My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart. 11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. 12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. 13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors. 14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.
This passage gives major clues. First the RA of the wicked comes to an end. He who causes mischief, born lies.
What is this mischief?
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow <'acown>, Hmm? not the same Hebrew word....
"Strong thorns secured over the nations" to Harm...
Thorns is typically a simile of sin...but is also use to turn, or protect??
OK Dave, I will give it to you, the words in Hebrew are not easy to identify...
Eve saw herself into a debt of death by eating the forbidden fruit.
The lying medium is not linked so easily as you suggest. Neither is the idea of mischief. But this deceiving power does born lies.
SO on the balance of probabilities, I think the serpent did lie to Eve and thus make her experience a debt of death.
Now you ask is this GOD wanting a sinless person to be a sinning person?
In 1 Kings 22, God is asking a different question, who shall help this sinning person to do more sinning?
I do not see these themes as related.
Also the word volunteer is not in the text.
Unpack this sentence to me?
Eve says "Ge 3:3 lest ye die. <muwth>"
Satan replies "Ge 3:4 Ye shall not surely die:<muwth><muwth>"
Both are speaking of different things. Eve says <muwth> once, but Satan says <muwth> twice.
The serpent has to be borning lies here. Jesus said in the beginning the devil borns lies, and is the Father of lies.
When you do harm (mischief) do you experience <muwth><muwth> ? Yes
You are in Exodus 21, to give eternal living for eternal living. Therefore <muwth><muwth> or eternal death is the consequence for harm.
Eve got the message of GOD wrong saying you only <muwth>, in fact you <muwth><muwth>.
What is important is the serpent negates God's words, saying you do not <muwth><muwth>. This is a lie.
When Adam and Eve missed God's power, all kinds of things began to cease to not exist....<muwth><muwth> is not immediate, it is gradual.
1) God shrank from them, exposing their nakedness 2) Humans blame others as self and pride enter 3) The serpent lies again, but gains entry into the fabric of man's DNA. While the angels can sin and return to GOD, but choose not to, mankind cannot, because the DNA experiences harm from the temptor, and thus mankind is inherited with corrupted flesh. Mischief is done. 4) The penalty for this is mischief is life for life, hence why Jesus had to die.
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Post by Dave on Aug 8, 2021 20:58:02 GMT -5
D" Stop speaking from ignorance - it shows R" I am not ignorant Dave, I simply postulating that maybe God saw fit to reduce the numbers of books for Christian Gentiles. Have you considered this idea? Your understanding of the complicated and political process that gave Rome its revived text – VERY WANTINGYou didn't answer the rest of my post Dave? Regarding your presentation of the beast power in the Garden.. is interesting... You link the word deceive that Eve said, to the lying medium, who so called volunteered for the Lord, Hence you say it is OK to sin and deceive if the Lord asks you to? Eve lied first and nothing happened Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceiveEnd of discussion – your opinions of Ellen White - your assumptions – and your doctrine is error ANSWER THE QUESTION You need everything to be evil – you want everything to be evil because to are trapped within a satanic cult
You freely admit it Robert comes along – agrees that the Catholic Church is satanic His Walter Veith theology says the Catholic Church invented Islam Yet – Robert preaches that Catholic satanology as fact and has no idea (he says) who Allah isISN’T THAT FACINATING!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2021 14:38:49 GMT -5
D"Eve lied first and nothing happened Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive
R" SO the lying serpent is allowed to lie, but Eve is not allowed to lie?
The lying serpent lied and was banished from heaven to earth for war and for lying we assume? And a 1/3 of the messengers of heaven went with this lying serpent? So what about the 2/3 of the messengers in heaven who did not fall with this lying? Who are these 2/3 Dave?
So it's OK for a serpent to be lying? and take 1/3 of the messengers with Him? Who are the 2/3? more archons who never lied?
ISN’T THAT FACINATING!
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Post by Dave on Aug 9, 2021 23:29:19 GMT -5
D" Eve lied first and nothing happened Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceiveR" SO the lying serpent is allowed to lie, but Eve is not allowed to lie? The lying serpent lied and was banished from heaven to earth for war and for lying we assume? Ah Yes – the marking of a true student of the word of God I asked - Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceiveAnd you respond with religious posturing and an assumptionR" SO the lying serpent is allowed to lie, but Eve is not allowed to lie?Did I say the serpent was allowed to lie – No – the serpent deceivedNow you say - Eve is not allowed to lieOK game player – I’ll play a gameDid God explain the promise of salvation to Adam in Gen 2:17 – God lied according to you Eve lied to the serpent – nothing happened Abraham lied to save his own life and allowed the Pharaoh to bed Sarah That lie – saved Abraham, the promise of Isaac given to Sarah, and the linage of Isaac Jacob – lied to get the inheritance from Isaac Rahab – lied to protect the Israeli spies That lie (sin according to you) saved the spies, Israel, Rahab life, and Rahab’s soul I ask again - Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive And now I will also add – Show me the commandment that for man to lie is a sin against GodCan you answer a direct question – is it possibleOr do you evade / avoid / dodge so you don’t have to answer? Ah Yes – the marking of a true student of the word of God
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 4:58:53 GMT -5
D"Did God explain the promise of salvation to Adam in Gen 2:17 R" Yes explained the process, of sacrifice and the mischief wrought upon Eve, the mother of all living. Just not written down, as the first truth is oral and easily remembered.
D" Abraham lied Jacob – lied Rahab – lied R" Yes humans sin and the Bible shows us the sinning plainly, as lies.
D"I ask again - Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive
R" Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Other elohiym powers before GOD, this includes the archonic rulers of darkness, the angels who also sinned with their free will to sin.
Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness, to another person (including GOD)
Ex 20:17 Thou shalt not covet (including the powers of GOD)
These laws are eternal and unchangeable. All creatures obey these laws, unless they are cursed by sin.
D"Show me the commandment that for man to lie is a sin against God R"Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness, to another person (including GOD)
Ex 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
When people sin, who do they sin against? Answer GOD.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 10, 2021 8:24:30 GMT -5
D"Did God explain the promise of salvation to Adam in Gen 2:17 R" Yes explained the process, of sacrifice and the mischief wrought upon Eve, the mother of all living. Just not written down, as the first truth is oral and easily remembered.
OH – just how much of your theology is instruction from God that is not in your Torah WOW – what an answer – God said it for sure / fact / no one just wrote it down Maybe I’ll use that to prove little green men on Mars are real – God said it, just didn’t write it down And I thought you were a student of the Torah / scripture – what outside source tells you this fact about God’s Word – Ellen White?
D" Abraham lied – and was saved Jacob – lied – and was saved Rahab – lied – and was saved R" Yes humans sin and the Bible shows us the sinning plainly, as lies. So salvation comes from the sin of lying? Interesting theology you have – which one of your two gods teaches salvation through lying
D"Show me the commandment that for man to lie is a sin against God R"Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness, to another person (including GOD)
The ninth commandment says, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16). Two or three witnesses were needed in ancient Hebrew law to establish a claim under civil law or a crime under criminal law. A false witness could lie under oath during judicial proceedings in order to establish guilt in a criminal case, or fault in a civil case. Since judgment based on false testimony could destroy the life or property of innocent human beings and discredit a country's system of justice, the penalty for perjury was very severe.
But the commandment against bearing false witness has a much broader application. Outside the context of the courts, it is termed slander. It is possible to bear false witness or slander by spreading rumors.
How did Abraham, Jacob, or Rahab slander or are participate in a rumor?
D"I ask again - Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive R" Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Lying is mentioned where? Or false witness, or rumor, or slander
Ex 20:17 Thou shalt not covet (including the powers of GOD) Lying is mentioned where? Or false witness, or rumor, or slander
God did not tell Adam the whole true in Gen 2:17 – it is an omission of fact Eve lied to the serpent – nothing happened In your Torah - salvation comes from the sin of lying?
Show me the commandment that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive Not your opinion – not your SDA assumptions – not Ellen White Show me the commandment
Is it impossible for you to answer a direct question Or do you just choose not to anwer
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2021 4:21:01 GMT -5
D"How did Abraham, Jacob, or Rahab slander or are participate in a rumor? R" Abraham did not lie, ie make a false witness, he merely didn't say all the facts about Sarah, his wife
Not familiar with Jacob's context
Rahab hid the spies from those seeking them, to protect their lives, made a diversion? Is it necessary to state all the facts thus lead to a person's downfall? Jeff Benner discusses this issue and it is not considered lying.
SO Dave, if you wish to discredit Scripture, please explain your terms...
Otherwise for me, the serpent lied and discredited the very words of GOD, that is what lying means.
D" Lying is mentioned where?
R" The details of the moral commands are written in the judgments:
Specifically for lying:-
Ex 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: Ex 23:1 Thou shalt not put thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; Ex 23:2 neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline Ex 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.
D" Show me the commandment ...that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive Is it impossible for you to answer a direct question Or do you just choose not to anwer? R? Pr 26:4 ¶ Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Joh 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins...
Eze 28:16 ...I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 11, 2021 7:49:27 GMT -5
D"How did Abraham, Jacob, or Rahab slander or are participate in a rumor? R" Abraham did not lie, ie make a false witness, he merely didn't say all the facts about Sarah, his wife
Oh – I see – Abraham deceived instead of lied
Gen 2:17 – God did not include all the facts – God deceived instead of lied
Jud 2 – Rahab hid the spies and claimed she didn’t know where they were – she didn’t lie – she just didn’t include all the facts – she didn’t lie – she deceived
Jacob didn’t lie when he told Isaac that he was actually Esau – it was a deception
Otherwise for me, the serpent lied and discredited the very words of GOD, that is what lying means. You just argued that it is not a lie to deceive Yet – Eve says the serpent deceived – you say the serpent lied Please pick one theology and stick with it
D" Show me the commandment ...that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive R" The details of the moral commands are written in the judgments:
Specifically for lying:- Ex 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: Ex 23:1 Thou shalt not put thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; Ex 23:2 neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline Ex 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.
Exo 23:1 Do not to spread a false report. Do not join hands with the wicked by becoming a malicious witness. Exo 23:2 “Do not follow a crowd to do evil. Nor are you to testify in a case, to follow a crowd and pervert justice. Exo 23:6 You are not to pervert justice to your poor in his dispute. Exo 23:7 Stay far away from a false charge. Do not kill the innocent and the righteous, for I will not justify the guilty. Exo 23:8 Take no bribe,
It is a court of Law
Again - D" Show me the commandment ...that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceive
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 12:56:04 GMT -5
R" Please pick one theology and stick with itFirst you said the angels do not follow the moral law. Second I would expect therefore, that archons do not follow moral law. Third, you say moral law was only introduced for humans. Fourth, you say not even God follows his own moral laws. Fifth, to confuse me you say Abraham lied, therefore it's OK for archons to lie. Sixth, you are splitting the Bible assessment of tov and ra into different functions for different creatures. You can do this because you do not have a Great Controversy. D" Again - D" Show me the commandment ...that says the serpent is not allowed to lie or deceiveJoh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. This verse clearly says angels and archons are required to follow moral laws. Therefore even GOD must follow his own moral laws, if all the creatures also have to. So why does the lion murderer, and the worm destroy, and the chief archon devil also known as the serpent, murder and lie ? Because SIN entered the universe, that's why. You divide the RA into two origins, the angel prosecutor (of which there is no evidence, only conjecture) and the Satanas completely different to the Satan, but you admit the demons and the same as the devils. Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Here all the RA labels are the same sinning Being. Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: You have twisted this, you don't like 1/3 of creatures choosing to sin. You do not even like a SIN problem for GOD. This makes GOD weak to you? Well saying ra is a natural fundamental of all things, makes God seem weak to me. I showed you in other posts that RA is always associated with SIN. So natural RA does not exist. The lion murders because of the curse of sin from Adam. Why is this? because Adam was a ruler over creation, but failed to rule sinlessly. Why was there two trees in the Garden? because there were two powers in this Creation of earth? You ignore the tree of life, and glorify the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You also glorify RA into some uncaused cause, that GOD naturally uses in His Creation? If that were so, why does the next Creation exclude all aspects of ra seen in our Creation? Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: SO if lions become vegetarians, sharks also become vegetarians. Laugh and mock all you want, but the Scriptures imply this change. Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. No sea of salt No sun of heat, therefore no umbra shadows No meat eating creatures No tears no natural death no spiritual death no more pain no diseases all former things pass away therefore no ra of anykind Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. All traces of ra (except the wounds on the body of Jesus) are destroyed forever Seventh, you are go off track in your view, you say GOD can even create Creatures intentionally with RA in them (archons who have self, archons who deceive naturally, archons who lie and also murder, it's all OK because GOD created this ra on purpose fdr these programmed living machines ) What your theology does is make GOD the creator of all things, including RA, which somehow is NOT associated with SIN, only the free will of man to choose RA is associated with SIN. By stating this idea, you place mankind into a different playing field, and all the other creatures are exempt from moral laws, because only man has free will to choose. You are welcome to your theory, but its not the theory of faith, the Bible teaches. There is one simple science proof, I can use to make your entire theory of faith fall, Darkness. R" First how much of this website do you support? www.gnosticdoctrine.com/2020/06/the-valentinian-trinity-and-origins-of.htmlGnostic Doctrine is a research websites about Gnostic theology.
The Valentinians generally believed that our universe originated from the primeval intermingling of two realms of Light and Darkness, or Spirit and Matter
The basic logic behind the trinity goes like this: The Spirit or Light represented the highest and finest substance that originated from the essence of the highest and most sublime God. Matter represented death and evil, and everything that was opposed to God. The Soul is a composite substance comprised of both spiritual and material essences. R" DO you support these words Dave? “When light mixed with darkness it made the darkness shine. When darkness mixed with light it dimmed the light, and it became neither light nor darkness, but rather gloom. This gloomy archon has three names: the first name is Yaldabaoth, the second is Sakla, the third is Samael” (Apocryphon of John, 11:52; quoted from Marvin Meyer, Nag Hammadi Scriptures, HarperCollins, pg. 116).
In the Apocryphon of John the soul of mankind originates from Yaldabaoth and is of like nature to himself (15). Sophia’s spirit is breathed into Adam and he then becomes a superior nature to his Creator (19f.). R" DO you support these words Dave? Only after sin did Adam become like the Opposer of GOD your so called "Yaldabaoth". Why do you support the idea that Adam is like Yaldabaoth before Adam sinned? Since when can a medium (HS) breath into Adam? Scripture does not say this? The Valentinian Trinity mandates that there are three theological principles that correspond to the three natures: Spirit, Soul and Matter. The spiritual God is the supreme Being, the Secret God of the Valentinians. The Soul God is the Demiurge. This is the God of justice, the Creator, that was revealed in the Bible. R" DO you support these words Dave? Spirit, Soul and Matter? Soul God? Secret God? Material God? Cosmocrator God? How many Gods does Gnosticism have? And then the material God was identified with Satan, and was referred to by some Gnostics as the “Cosmocrator” or “World-Ruler.” Each God was the governor of its peculiar domain, whether of Spirit, or of the Soul, or of the material world, where all power falls into the hands of predators.
The “devil” is the Cosmocrator. His rule signifies the law of the jungle and of all people who have no godly capacity at all. The Valentinians believed that all material substance, and evil, originated from Sophia’s griefR" DO you support these words Dave? From the HS grief? What? ----------------------------------------------- Now back to darkness. Explain to me where chosek came from? Or is chosek a fundamental ? Part of the uncaused cause? Einstein says dark cannot be broken down and studied, so dark does not exist. Explain how dark is some fundamental as light is. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: Light is formed from God because God is light Dark is created from nothing because God has nothing to do with dark Therefore normally darkness does not exist. Normally RA does not exist either, a simile of darkness. So where does darkness come from? nothing Why does God create darkness? Because creatures wish to sin Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 12, 2021 14:00:12 GMT -5
First you said the angels do not follow the moral law. What is moral law – give me your definition You say God is Love and does ra – so I am confused by your definitions Please give me a scripture that = moral law for angels Please give me your scripture for any of the rules and commandment s for angels
Angels do what they do in the service of the lord in praise of the lord What about that is immoral?
Second I would expect therefore, that archons do not follow moral law. Same answer Show me the commandment for cows – what do they do that constitutes immorality
Third, you say moral law was only introduced for humans. What is moral law I know of the 10 commandment and the 613 other commandment and the commandments of Jesus Christ
Is is moral to kill and murder – God sure does a lot of it
Fourth, you say not even God follows his own moral laws. Show me the laws or commandment that govern God!
Fifth, to confuse me you say Abraham lied, therefore it's OK for archons to lie. 1- Abraham lied to save his own life and the promise of Israel 2- you said Abraham didn’t lie – he only deceived 3- Eve says the serpent deceived her – you disagree with scripture – end of story
What your theology does is make GOD the creator of all things, including RA, CORRECT ROBERT THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR – end of story
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2021 4:13:22 GMT -5
D" Please give me a scripture that = moral law for angels Show me the laws or commandment that govern God! CORRECT ROBERT THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR – end of storyR" I present to you Noahide laws considered by Jews to be universal even for angels. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_NoahIn Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח, Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach), otherwise referred to as the Noahide Laws[1][2][3][4] or the Noachian Laws[1][5] (from the Hebrew pronunciation of "Noah"), are a set of imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God as a binding set of universal moral laws for the "sons of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[1][2][4][5][6][7][8]
The Seven Laws of Noah include prohibitions against worshipping idols, cursing God, murder, adultery and sexual immorality, theft, eating flesh torn from a living animal, as well as the obligation to establish courts of justice.[1][4][5][6][7][12][13]I postulate to you these laws are eternally binding for all creatures including angels. R" Please note my research into Jewish stuff, does not mean I support these things. I support the ten commandments, written by God's finger are moral laws binding for God, angels, humans and all living things. --------------------- R" Now I submit to you that the fallen angels or angels of darkness existed in the Jewish theology at least 100BC or 100 AD, hundreds of years before your Roman edit claim. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/angels-and-angelology-2The War Scroll describes two angels of prime importance: "The Prince of Light" and "The Angel of Darkness," with whom were associated "the sons of righteousness" and "the sons of darkness" respectively (1QM 13:10–12). These angels were in perpetual conflict and thought to fight on the sides of the two armies at the "last battle," when the Angel of Darkness and his army would be destroyed. This is likewise expressed in the Manual of Discipline (1QS 3:20–22), "In the hand of the Prince of Light is the dominion of all the sons of righteousness… and in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the dominion of the sons of evil." Some have supposed that the Prince of Light was Uriel but others think he was Michael, for he is described in the War Scroll (1QM 17:6) as being sent by God in "eternal light" (cf. Dan. 10:13, "Behold Michael, one of the leading princes has come"). The Angel of Darkness seems to have been Belial: "But for corruption you have made Belial, an angel of hatred and his dominion is in darkness" (1QM 13:11).----------------------------------- GOD does not transgress his own moral laws, Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; God does not lie. Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. God rests on his own ceasing day Sabbath. Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, Shows that other elohiym powers (false gods) exist, and that God is jealous for true supremacy. Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? GOD judges all creatures equally, those who ruwach goeth upward, are held accountable for their sins. Shalom
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