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Post by Dave on Sept 12, 2021 18:23:35 GMT -5
D"OH I see – you think – but you have no evidence I say the Hebrew word for archon – shedim and satyr ‘sar’ is also appropriate as in the prince of Persia (Dan 10) R" I can accept that too, but not much about shedim or satyr in the OT.T hat Rome allows you to know – in from the greater temple Scrolls there is a lot of information Rome has taught you to deny anything except what they want you knowDe 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. YES! – the ‘other gods’ of the 99% - that desire sacrifice are archon – are of the serpent race – are a satanas from the 99%www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/demons-and-demonologyR" I will try to read some Jewish ideas. "A demon is an evil spirit, or devil, in the ordinary English usage of the term. This definition is, however, only approximate. In polytheistic religions the line between gods and demons is a shifting one: there are both good demons and gods who do evil.YES in the pagan religions of the 99% had multiple players of all types - correct In monotheistic systems, evil spirits may be accepted as servants of the one God, so that demonology is bound up with angelology and theology properYES – very Jewish – God is absolute – His Will – His Plan – God is in control, or they may be elevated to the rank of opponents of God, in which case their status as diabolic powers differs from that of the demons in polytheism.YES – this is the Catholic doctrine that distances itself from the originalYES this is 100% SDA – which has its origin in Roman Catholic doctrineR" You present a different view. The author here assumes polytheistic religions verses monotheistic religions.Correct – the 1% - which is Israel - were monotheistic All of the 99% ate polytheistic – because there are 200 bane elohiym that came to earth as gods Usually about 20 major players and 200 total – Egypt, Sumar, Assyria, Hittites, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Vikings, Polynesia, Native American Indian, Australian AborigineDoes making GOD into ONE godhead of three members of the godhead, a polytheistic religion ? NO, not in my understanding, but Jews do not consider this idea.The Jews are dualist – God and the Spirit of God, Shekinah, Holy Spirit – that comes among the people The addition of Jesus Christ changed dualism into a Trinity because God is Christ No difference between God/Christ +HS/Shekinah then God + Christ + HSThere is Only One GodDoes having ONE GOD design bad and demons as a part of His over design, acceptable picture of GOD as love? In my view of GOD, no, but Jews are happy that demons and bad things also come from God. The Jews see God as absolute – period The Jews understand that they are being tested in this world – obstacles are put in our way to overcome – helping man to see – you can’t do it alone – anything I need to atone for (Yom Kippur) – God does tabernacle with man – twice (Sukkot) ) and salvation come only by the Lord (Pirum) + the sacrifice of the Lamb (Passover, Passover, Passover) followed in 50 days by the harvest (Pentecost) You have been taught Catholic feel Good God that does only tov – and cannot come to terms with most of the ahl – God couldn’t kick Adam ad Eve out that’s mean – God couldn’t have killed an entire planet of people with a flood – God could not have done Sodom and Gomorrah – Oops – you just deny scripture A Jew will agree with you – God plan and Will are the ultimate tov – but there sure is a lot of ra down here with manDefense against evil spirits was a concern in Mesopotamia from earliest times, beginning with the Sumerians, Where is Mesopotamia and Sumerians = Chaldeans Defense against evil spirits was a concern in Mesopotamia from earliest times, beginning with the Sumerians, = was against G4567 - Σατανᾶς - Of Chaldee origin; the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan.YES – Absolutely AgreeDemons, however, have less power, A hierarchy of command – like a military – Generals – Captains - PrivatesIncantations often list four, or even seven, classes of demons. Don’y know about number of orders – just that they appear in many forms to fit different occasionsDemons are messengers of the lord of the underworld, and march before him. They live in deserts and near graves, and many of them are ghosts, spirits of the dead, especially of those who died by violence or were not properly buried. Messengers of the BEAST – correctThe rest is all Chaldean teaching and is still the teaching of Islam today Sickness may be thought of as caused by demonic possession, and some demons have the name of the specific disease they bring, thus "Headache," or "Fever." YES – King Solomon tells us this as wellLamashtu is the hag who kills children in the womb and newborn babies. Like many other demons, she is depicted as a composite monster. Lilitu, the Mesopotamian succubus, is mentioned once in the Bible as Lilith (Isa. 34:14;) Lamashtu = Lilith – King Solomon – Archon – all of Chaldean origin R" You present a different view. But I note the Bible does mention these things.NOPE -this is very much my view – a Jewish view – I just call them archonAnd the view of everyone in Israel at the time of Jesus Christ No one ever believed in your satan god until Rome invented him "Israel's official religion contrasts sharply with contemporary polytheisms in the role assigned to demons, which in the Bible is practically nil. Magic was prohibited among the Israelites from very early times, for already the oldest collection of laws, the Book of the Covenant, contains the command: "You shall not tolerate a sorceress" (Ex. 22:17 [Eng. 22:18]; cf. Deut. 18:10–12), and Saul put the practitioners of necromancy out of the land (I Sam. 28:3). Since much of pagan magic was protective – intended to keep demons away or to expel them – obviously Israel's religion aimed at a very radical extirpation of traffic with demons. POINT – this information is kept in the Kabbalah Nowhere does any Jew call any of this fake – it is all 100% real and all 100% Jewish The Jews knew of it because it is from the 99% - the Jews recorded itJdg 2:1 Now the angel of Adonai came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and He said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and took you into the land which I swore to your fathers. I also said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. Jdg 2:2 Now as for you, you must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land. You must break down their altars.’ But you have not listened to My voice. What is this you have done? Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’” Calamities and illnesses were not from demons but from the Lord. "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Amos 3:6). Although God does not always accomplish His will immediately, but uses angels and spirits as agents, it is ordinarily made explicit that the spirits are under His control. The evil spirit which troubles Saul is "an evil spirit from the Lord" (I Sam. 16:14). Calamities and illnesses were not from demons but from the Lord God - uses angels and spirits as agents Hebrew satan and JobHebrew satan and 2Sam24 the spirits are under His control. – good and bad R" You present a different view. God is the author of all bad and good spirits? I do not have this view.Everything is from God – even the archonCol 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities (archon). All was created through Him and for Him. Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things. "Therefore, one must not overestimate the importance of the numerous small traces of belief in demons which survive in the Bible, or underestimate the difficulties involved in interpreting them. Just as some Mesopotamian demons have names which are also common nouns, so in biblical cases like dever and mavet (mawet; see below) it is hard to be sure when these are proper names and when not. Hebrew satan – Greek satanasR" We have become learned to accept poetry as symbolic and other writings as fact. So sad. YES – you want to turn everything into a simile, or metaphor so it means something elseForeign gods are called shedim (Deut. 32:17; Ps. 106:37; cf. I Cor. 10:20), rendered "demons" or "devils" in most translations. The word is related to Akkadian šêdu ("demon"; good or evil). YES – all of Chaldean origin – all from the 99%R" These demon/spirits are mentioned in Scripture, but who or what are they? Where do they come from?They are all archon – that desire worship within the 99% - the serpent race – bane elohiym – Nephilim God is only knew to the 1% - God’s chosen people – Israel Everyone knows inside there is a god – and fall for any entity that can do magic R" Clash words with words until the reader is overwhemed in confusion. YES – this is your problem – you just stumble over words and completely miss the meaning This is a masonic principle designed to get people overwhelmed and angry, clash the Bible with the Bible, the limited tanak with a broader tanak, with a Bible version with another Bible version, so in the end the reader give up.NO – it is so you question – seek – learn It is wrong to drink the Kool-Aid – just join any ole church and learn then man-made doctrineSo the common person doesn't read, and so religion becomes the culture under it's leader.YES – ABSOLUTELY – and this is the problem with the corner churchOver time all the disagreers leave and the remaining is that pastors personal fan club – been there done that New Testament demonology in part reflects contemporary popular belief, YES – Catholic Fallen Angels is a pagan belief!Solomon made use of male and female demons to build the Temple (Git. 68b) and to bring him water from India with which he was able to grow all kinds of exotic plants not otherwise growing in Erez Israel (Eccles. R. to 2:5). R" Can this be proven, or is this a writing by humans not inspired?It is common teaching within Judaism – unlike you – they respect King Solomon the guy that built their templeR" Some rabbi have different opinions? Traditions of men?DUH – This is so refreshing it is crazyAsk a Christina a question – you get an absolute ‘one way’ answer Ask a different Christian and you get a different ‘one way’ answer In the end – we have 2500 registered different ‘one way’ denominations – some are so different it is hard to pick a good Bible Church Aska Rabbi and he will say – Well Rabbi A says, but Rabbi B says, and Rabbi C from 1650 said …. Always 5 opinions – BUT ONE JUDAISM The kabbalists made use of all the motifs current in the Talmud and Midrash with regard to demons. Yep – 1Th 5:21 but test all things, hold fast to what is good, The works of the kabbalists also contain contradictory conceptions of the demons and the power of imagination. Yep - Always 5 opinions – BUT ONE JUDAISMR" Yes Jews have different views. Overwhelming to consider these views. Masonic principle, make universities to compound the simple Bible schools, make deeper meanings, more complexity removes the faith of the simple.And that is why a new Christin should not attend an advanced classYou claimed to be Christian for many years – missionary – you own web-site to preach to the world – I met you in a chat room filled with PhDs discussing linguistics and translationPs 131:1 ... neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. 2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child Keep things simple but not simpler, a saying by my second favorite Jew, Albert EinsteinYou are over your head trying to defend a man-made doctrine elevation satan to godhood--------------------------- D"What does this passage have to do with Erasmus drafting the Textus Receptus? PLEASE TEACH ME THIS! – there might be a Nobel Prize in it for us R" OH, so show me a BIble verse that the Jews have the key to salvation, that salvation comes from following the Jewish culture, Jewish thought and all of the Jewish tanak, not just the limited tanak? Can you answer a direct question – you want me to believe that the disciples picked the very document to become the agl – you said it – now document it Especially when some of it was not even written yet?
D"Still confused – you support Catholic doctrine R" Sabbath on Saturday is not a Catholic doctrine Dave. What are you saying?The doctrine of Fallen Ange4ls is 100% a Roman Catholic invention Rob. What are you saying?
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Post by Dave on Sept 13, 2021 10:10:58 GMT -5
there are both good demons and gods who do evil. YES in the pagan religions of the 99% had multiple players of all types – correct
What is a good demon / archon / Jinn – in the religions of the 99% The religion of the beast, devils, serpent race, satanas from Chaldean origin
1- According to King Solomon – the archon can control nature – wind / rain / disease Any archon ‘other god’ that manipulated any of these – appeared as a god to primitive man
Make it rain just once for man – and you are their god – ad a good one/helpful/ prayer answer ‘other gods’ – archon doing tricks
Just as in the end-of-days the anti-Christ will call fire down from heaven The religion of the beast, devils, serpent race, satanas from Chaldean origin
2- helpful demons fight with a leader in battel – they are on the same side
3- Islam – The religion of the beast, devils, serpent race, satanas from Chaldean origin tell of genies in a bottle – wish granters – selfish wish granters – (yester ra) wish granters
All of it good to those who worship the ‘other gods’
What is a bad demon / archon / Jinn – in the religions of the 99% The religion of the beast, devils, serpent race, satanas from Chaldean origin
They torture man / torment man / punish man for NOT PLEASING their ‘other god’
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2021 14:18:16 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" And the view of everyone in Israel at the time of Jesus Christ No one ever believed in your satan god until Rome invented himR" Is it possible that the origin of RA with a sinning creature was established, unraveled revealed LATER? as the notion of former and latter rains imply? D" Everything is from God – even the archonR" I don't have a problem with God creating all creatures, why don't you see one creature sinned, causing other creatures to sin? D" NO – it is so you question – seek – learn It is wrong to drink the Kool-Aid – just join any ole church and learn then man-made doctrineR" I watched the movie of Edward Fudge, this week again for you Dave, the book he wrote " the Fire that consumes" a true movie based on true events, of a nerd who studied all things, in All writings, including Gnostic, Jewish Kabbalah, OT and NT Hebrew, reading Greek from age 6, etc, etc. He overturned an era of tradition and error in Church. No such thing as a proportional punishment, and the climate of his study was realizing that the soul is not eternal upon death....no....the soul dies when the body dies and there is not eternal burning hell for the soul.... I do seek and learn, I suggest you watch the movie, Mr Fudge. The movie was put together by Mrs Arrabito , her husband Jim Arrabito died from Masons who killed him, warned him not to preach against the Catholics, but He did in his own calm sweet way. endrtimes.blogspot.com/2007/10/james-jim-arrabito-on-jesuits.html"Jim Arrabito who interviews these witnesses was EL-iminated by the Jesuits when his plane was sabotaged in 1990. Ex Jesuit Alberto Rivera was also EL-iminated by the Jesuit order with the notorious "poison cup" or "Cup of borgia" in 1997.I have met Mrs Arrabito personally, a lovely SDA lady, and she presented to us the Mr Fudge movie. SO yes, I do seek and learn. D" YES – Catholic Fallen Angels is a pagan belief!R" It cannot be pagan if it is written in Ezekiel the prophet of God in chapter 28, where a poetry parallel is made between King tyre and the King of all RA, a cherub. D" Aska Rabbi and he will say – Well Rabbi A says, but Rabbi B says, and Rabbi C from 1650 said …. Always 5 opinions – BUT ONE JUDAISMR" You are allowed opinions Dave. Ask a SDA person about the coming prophecies of the end of time, and I will say, well the Marion Berry theory of faith says this, and the Dave Westbrook theory of faith says this, and the Steven Bohr says this in Daniel 12, and Professor Walter Veith says this...SO there are some differences on these prophecies for the end times. You are allowed opinions Dave. D" And that is why a new Christin should not attend an advanced class You claimed to be Christian for many years – missionary – you own web-site to preach to the world – I met you in a chat room filled with PhDs discussing linguistics and translationR" Yes, maybe God brought us together, and maybe I should be getting back to that website, you have taught me a few things, and I do to edit my website, a complete make over really would help. Will take years. First I would get rid of that mistake over the kathestemi Greek meaning, how silly of me, stupid software mistake, however, is it childlike, easy to use, but shows many things simple can lead to mistakes. D" You are over your head trying to defend a man-made doctrine elevation satan to godhoodR" Not really, I have other experts before me, Jim Arrabito, Walter Veith. All videos about truth as they saw it. 'It would be nice to meet a SDA-JEW and ask him how you left your Jewish roots behind? That would help me discuss things with you better. However SDA is similar to A Jew, just not the same as traditional Jewish culture. We have hundreds of less rules on Sabbath keeping for example. But we do not cook on Sabbath. D" you want me to believe that the disciples picked the very document to become the agl – you said it – now document it Especially when some of it was not even written yet?R" Be reasonable Dave, I showed you a principle.... The torah means teachings, showing principles of the way to go, and one principle for Gentiles is making things less complicated....
Question: How many Sabbath rules are there for the tradional Jew to admonish? That would be nice to view them all, and show you how SDA Sabbath rules are different.D" The doctrine of Fallen Ange4ls is 100% a Roman Catholic invention Rob. What are you saying?R" Not as I read it in the true prophet writings of Ezekiel 28. D" What is a bad demon / archon / Jinn – in the religions of the 99% The religion of the beast, devils, serpent race, satanas from Chaldean originR" I get all the 200 labels of demons mentioned in Scripture, and agree with their so called labels... but in the SDA circles we are only more interested in the origin of the RA creatures and how they came to be. The true prophet writings of Ezekiel 28, tell the reader that a cherub sinned and fell from God, causing war in heaven to continue as war on earth. Not some bustle, this war is ongoing, and is why partly Jesus came to earth, to get rid of the prince of this world, and he did this by dying on the cross. Such things are mysteries, but this war is ongoing, until Rev 21-22 when God removes the outer temple, leaving on the inner temple in the new city, no more sin or RA forever again. Our own prophet sent by God for the latter rain, Ellen White calls this ongoing war a Great Controversy. Shalom I have backed up all my files now, ready for the death on this Lenovo. God's grace to you and your wife and daughters.
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Post by Dave on Sept 14, 2021 0:49:29 GMT -5
D"And the view of everyone in Israel at the time of Jesus Christ No one ever believed in your satan god until Rome invented him R" Is it possible that the origin of RA with a sinning creature was established, unraveled revealed LATER? as the notion of former and latter rains imply? YES – it is called the agl – Revelation chapter 12
D"Everything is from God – even the archon R" I don't have a problem with God creating all creatures, why don't you see one creature sinned, causing other creatures to sin?
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned.
I do not deny scripture Sin came into this world by the actions of one man – EVE – then Adam
R" I watched the movie of Edward Fudge, this week again for you Dave, I do seek and learn, I suggest you watch the movie, Mr Fudge. Seriously - do I owe you the time to watch a movie you suggest This where I say - Oh I watched it long ago - it didn't say much
D"YES – Catholic Fallen Angels is a pagan belief! R" It cannot be pagan if it is written in Ezekiel the prophet of God in chapter 28, where a poetry parallel is made between King tyre and the King of all RA, a cherub. Ezekiel 28 has absolutely nothing to do with Chaldean satanas – or the serpent race – or the Beast The Beast of Revelation was never friends with God – cherished The Beast of Revelations never enjoyed God’s Glorious heavens The beast appeared, in a plurality, and was cast into physical creation You came here preaching – precept upon precept, line upon line We studied each and ever verse – 23 + 49 – not one of them validate your view To which you said – precept upon precept, line upon line doesn’t matter – you have Ezk 28 and Rev 12:7 Hebrew satan serves the Lord – you refuse to answer why it is a sin to serve/obey the lord The best you had was – whoever oppose man oppose God Butwhen God opposes man – you refuse to answer why God is a sinner I have asked you for a pre-Rome reference to the doctrine of Fallen Angels – you have provide none in 2 years I have asked you to quote one Rabbi that acceopt that doctrine– you have provide none in 2 years Your only comeback is Ezk 28 –your view is not validated by the bulk of scripture Your view was ever a Jewish teaching – it was invented by Rome
D"Ask a Rabbi and he will say – Well Rabbi A says, but Rabbi B says, and Rabbi C from 1650 said …. Always 5 opinions – BUT ONE JUDAISM R" You are allowed opinions Dave. A Rabbi is intelligent enough to realize – he does not know it all Only Christians and their ‘one way’ claim to know it all – 2500 different ‘one ways’ proves thay know nothing except how to fracture the Christian faith
D" you want me to believe that the disciples picked the very document to become the agl – you said it – now document it Especially when some of it was not even written yet? R" Be reasonable Dave, I showed you a principle.... The torah means teachings, showing principles of the way to go, and one principle for Gentiles is making things less complicated.... I have shown you the history and the reality – I do not accept your assumptions
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2021 5:18:08 GMT -5
D" YES – it is called the agl – Revelation chapter 12R" OK, and were the archons initally designed to be good creatures in heaven? They were designed to be RA creatures weren't they? So in Rev 12 it says the devil and his messengers fought a bustle with Michael and his messengers. Question: which messengers are these creatures? Easy: how many creature kinds are mentioned in heaven? Your view: 1) archons 2) cherubs No other creature named. See why I choose the cherub, over the archon, which is not a named creature kind, but a word meaning to rule/ruler. D" I do not deny scripture Sin came into this world by the actions of one man – EVE – then AdamR" First does the Greek imply gender male or gender female or gender both? It implies gender male doesn't it? Second isn't Hebrew patralineal? meaning gender males are Lords, not their wives. Third you deny that Adam was prince of earth, so Adam's sinning only matters. Not Eve. D" Oh I watched it long ago - it didn't say muchR" Than you will be emotionally touched by his Greek ability, his thoroughness and his willingness to read also Gnostic writings as well as Kabbalah. He was paid to research properly and he did. Yet he said there is no soul that lives after the body dies, and no proportional punishment. And you say the movie didn't say much....really? D" Ezekiel 28 has absolutely nothing to do with Chaldean satanas – or the serpent race – or the BeastR" Maybe, but it does say a cherub sinned. Is this correct or not? Let's forget the application of the words, did the Hebrew say a cherub sinned, that was once perfect and later found with iniquity? Is that what the sentence reads Dave? Forget about application, does the verse actually say that? I know you apply the verse to a man, but does the verse actually say a cherub sinned? y/n? D" We studied each and ever verse – 23 + 49 – not one of them validate your viewR" Now that is a false statement. You whittled away my presentation. I make the statement that the word satan in both verb and noun forms must mean the same action, with different levels of action. The word I selected in "oppose or opposer (one who opposes)" Zec 3:1 Satan (satan-noun) standing at his right hand to resist (satan-verb) him This verse is a good one to begin, both uses of this Hebrew word must have the same basic meaning, only difference in action. Yet the KJV translation ignores Hebrew language rules according to Jeff Benner. Ps 109:29 Let mine adversaries (satan-verb) be clothed with shame, Nu 22:22 ...the Messenger of YHWH stood in the way for an adversary (satan-noun) against him. These three verses are all I need to present my case. First the Hebrew word does not mean the English word "SATAN" some evil being, as Catholics present. You have presented this idea no end to mock me and all who are deceived by this. The Hebrew word means "oppose/opposer (one who opposes)" This single English meaning fits all the verses of context, both verb and noun forms. Zec 3:1 The Opposer (satan-noun) standing at his right hand to oppose (satan-verb) him Ps 109:29 Let mine opposers (satan-verb) be clothed with shame, Nu 22:22 ...the Messenger of YHWH stood in the way for an Opposer (satan-noun) against him. According to the OT Hebrew, GOD is also able to be an opposer, as in the example of opposing the road Baalim traveled on. Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan (Satanas): for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Now in the Greek NT you make a big deal over the word Satanas, but since this word related or rooted must come from Hebrew roots, has to be the word (satan-verb) or (satan-noun) , not some other idea as you claim. SO this meaning along with all other NT verses reads the same as the OT examples: Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Opposer for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Clearly in the Bible there are beings who oppose God, because Jesus was God on earth. There is also an example of messengers of God also as an opposer. Why did God become an opposer to Baalim? Because Baalim is a wicked prophet, and GOD is opposing the wickedness in the prophet. What about this opposer, opposing Jesus (dressed as God in human from) , where does this Opposer come from? We know in Zec 3:1 an opposer opposed Joshua the high priest. Nowhere are we humans allowed to term this creature who opposed Jesus as God on earth, a being called "the Satan" but a tradtion has stuck. I term the being as the opposer, because the Hebrew word means oppose/opposer in all the verses of context. D" To which you said – precept upon precept, line upon line doesn’t matter – you have Ezk 28 and Rev 12:7R" Every verse I showed you, oppose/opposer fits. You can have opposers in tennis match agreeing to each other in friendly terms, but in a contest they oppose each other, this is what Job is about, God and the opposer. The serpent in the garden is a different hebrew word. Only in the latter rain is the term serpent clarified. Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan All these different labels are the same being. What would these Greek words be in Hebrew? So we differ in application, but you cannot differ in the word meaning of the word (satan-verb) / (satan-noun) . Dictionary adversary "one's opponent in a contest, conflict, or dispute". Keeping English simple, an adversary is the same as an opposer/oppose. Question what is it about a being that causes relationships to oppose? Answer: sin So if any being or creature has sin in the relationship, the word "oppose" applies. Hence God opposed Baalim because he was a RA prophet An opposer opposes God because the opposer sins against God. Question: Can an opposer be friendly to it's opponent? Why not? Especially if the creature has no power of his own. D" Hebrew satan serves the Lord – you refuse to answer why it is a sin to serve/obey the lordR" Yes there are some verses where it seems the opposer is serving the Lord. For example Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Sthe Opposer came also among them. Question: Here is a meeting, with two groups, sons of God and the Opposer. That means the sons of God are straight in the eyes of God and the Opposer is crooked in the eyes of the Lord. So what is valued here in the meetings? Sin verses sinlessness. One group is sinless, the Opposer is belonging to a group of sinning beings. Job is declared sinless. The opposer opposes this idea. The opposes wants to establish a challenge. God accepts the challenge. All Job has is in thy power God says. This seems the opposer is serving God. But just like a tennis match the rules are set, and both opponents are to adhere to the rules. D" The best you had was – whoever oppose man oppose GodR Yes many verses show the opposer opposing man. D" But when God opposes man – you refuse to answer why God is a sinnerR" God opposed Baalim as an opposer to Baalim. The word oppose/opposer does not imply you have sinned or not sinned. The term itself is not an evil word. It simply means you are opposing another being for some reason. Why did God oppose Baalim? Because Baalim is a sinning prophet. Therefore God opposes sin, and is an opposer to sin. A being sinning by definition is also opposing God and thus an opposer of God. The key to the word meaning of oppose/opposer is the sin problem. D" I have asked you for a pre-Rome reference to the doctrine of Fallen Angels – you have provide none in 2 yearsR" Hmm? The angels are classified in Hebrew as cherub, as well as other related words. In Ezekiel 28 its says a cherub who was once sinless began to sin. How is it no Jew ever commented on this hundreds of years ago? Take another verse Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (bad translation "day one" ) Why has no Jew ever commented about day one, in Gen 1:5 and this significance? Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Why has no Jew ever commented on how a generation of time is made in a single yom of time? This is talking about relativity here, yet only the Jew Einstein spoke of this. Since GOD inspired the Hebrew, we should expect humans NOT to understand all the contents, until there are revealed by God, in this life or the life to come. D "I have asked you to quote one Rabbi that acceopt that doctrine– you have provide none in 2 yearsR" Sorry, not familiar with Jews... many Jews secretly worship a trinity, in Jerimieah's time, not all Jews follow traditional beliefs. D" Your only comeback is Ezk 28 –your view is not validated by the bulk of scriptureR" Salvation is based on works, if you follow the bulk of scripture in the OT. Salvation is based on the shedding of animal blood if you follow the bulk of Scripture in the OT. Question: Where is truth? Is it in lots of verses, or one that is neglected and hidden? Why is the Bible a parable and with hidden secrets? D" I have shown you the history and the reality – I do not accept your assumptionsR" Hmm? fair enough, it would be great to attend Jewish churches you and I and discuss this with Jews who are willing to talk. I would love to talk to an SDA-Jew for example and ask him some questions. www.bing.com/search?q=EGW+with+Jew%3F&cvid=ab62787454f544008a71b1938d7098c0&aqs=edge..69i57.5675j0j1&pglt=161&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=LCTSJewish Rabbi claims Ellen White was a Jewish Mishnaic Writer Christ the Way of Life "The Messiah, the Way of Life”
Artist Elfred Lee's Testimony of Yahshua’s Life by Rabbi Joe Kagan Artist Elfred Lee - "I met Rabbi Joe Kagan at Weimar Institute in CA. His family had come from Eastern Europe where his aunt had been raped while a priest stood over her with a crucifix saying, "This is what you get for killing Christ." So you can imagine the feeling of many Jews towards Christianity. American Christians are not at all like Europeans.
His family moved to the US while he was young. At age 13 he debuted at Carnegie Hall as a cantor. He had a beautiful, tenor voice. He received a very high education and became a rabbi. I met him in his later years in 1978 after he had been on Ronald Reagan's staff in Sacramento as their research man. If there were any questions about any subject, he was the one that did the research and found the answers.
He had a very negative attitude towards Christianity. He would never touch the New Testament. However, he knew the Jewish Old Testament (Torah) extremely well as a highly educated rabbi would. One day he got hold of a book called "Patriarchs and Prophets" by Ellen G. White. He read it with astonishment and wanted to know who this Ellen White was. That is when I met him. He was asking who is this Ellen G. White, and what university did she attend. We told him she only had a 3rd grade education. "Then, where did she learn Hebrew?" he asked. We told him that she never knew Hebrew, but was the most prolific female writer in history and that this was only one of her books.
He was amazed at her knowledge, saying that the information in this book (Patriarchs and Prophets) is Mishnaic. The Mishnah is part of the Hebrew scholarship. He said the Mishnah had only been translated into English 30 years ago and that only high-level rabbis knew this information. This is the history of my people and it is very, very accurate. He also said that you have to know Hebrew to be able to write like this because her sentence structure is not English, it's Hebrew...The rhythm, the meter, the arrangement of words and expressions are not English. He said it's as if she wrote in Hebrew and it was translated into English.
My family and I developed a strong friendship with Joe, his wife and son. As we studied the Bible and some Ellen White books together one day, he said, "I am convinced that Ellen White was inspired by the same source that inspired the Hebrew prophets. I want to become a Christian. I accept Jesus Christ as my Messiah." Now, he would not have come to Christ through reading the Bible. Even though the Hebrew Bible is full of prophecies pointing to the Messiah, it took Ellen White's writings to prove to him that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of all the Hebrew prophecies. And only then did he pick up the New Testament and read about his Jewish Messiah.
Many times I saw him cry. I was in the middle of a painting commission for a large mural called "Christ The Way of Life" for the world headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventist church in Washington DC. He became very involved with that painting. The painting had originally been inspired by James and Ellen White who had commissioned an engraver to do a black and white drawing of the subject. He confirmed to me that Ellen White's concept was very accurate on the whole plan of salvation in both the Old and New Testament, but that the engraver had misrepresented her concepts. So he helped me in many details to make the painting historically and theologically accurate; especially regarding the sanctuary section, the Hebrew writing on the cross and the last supper scene. He told me to paint Jesus and his disciples at an oriental style table, sitting on mats on the floor - not Roman couches as the medieval artists painted. Further, he said their heads would be covered and he made sure I painted the wine, the unleavened bread and the bitter herbs and their symbolism exactly as they would have been.
He approved of the whole painting and we had an unveiling ceremony at the Auburn SDA Church in late 1979. He had written a song to go with the painting and sat at the organ as we unveiled the painting. He wept as he sang the words of Jesus on the cross quoting Isaiah, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" He sang and sang and wept and wept, his whole body shaking. There was not a dry eye in the whole church. His voice was so beautiful.
The original painting hangs in the new SDA world headquarters in Silver Spring, Maryland where they have posters and Bible studies of the painting. I could never have done it without the inspiration of Rabbi Kagan and Ellen White. I wish they were still alive!
We were at his secret baptism in the Bear River above Sacramento on Saturday night Dec. 22, 1979. There were four of us present. He could not even tell his wife and son that he was now a Christian. As he came up out of the cold water praising God and singing to his new Messiah, he said, "I am now a completed Jew. I have now accepted the Old and New Testament and the Messiah that all Jewish prophets told us about!" I was recently in Europe giving some workshops on art and some of my archeological work in the Middle East. I happened to meet a Jewish family from Israel. Shalom David was originally from Iraq and his wife from Chile.
They were now attending a college in Europe where I met with quite a bit of opposition to the writings of Ellen White. This Jewish family invited me to their home for Shabbat (Friday night supper.) It was a most enjoyable occasion as his wife and beautiful children sang and celebrated the arrival of Sabbath as Jews have done for thousands of years. I told them the story of Rabbi Kagan and he got very excited. He said, "The same thing happened to me! I would have rather burned the Bible then touch it! I wanted nothing to do with Christianity, but I also read the writings of Ellen White and the Spirit of God was on that woman. Her writings are as if she wrote in Hebrew.
You can definitely hear the Hebrew rhythm, meter and expressions in her books. I also believe she was inspired by the same source as the Hebrew prophets. And she has helped me fall in love with Jesus Christ, my Messiah." I just met yesterday with a rabbi living here in California - Rabbi Ben. It was a follow up to a Sabbath meal I was invited to this last Sabbath with him and a group of Adventists. He went through the whole ceremony at the meal just like Rabbi Kagan and as my new friend (Shalom David) in Europe had. So yesterday we were talking over Hebrew ceremonies and how they are still effective in healing disease.
Rabbi Ben told me that he has also had the same experience. He hated the Bible but that Ellen White brought him to Christ and helped him read the New Testament and fall in love with the Messiah. He also told me that he had gone to visit one of the most influential rabbis in America who is in his 90s who must remain unnamed. While in this rabbi's library talking, he was scanning the many, many books on his walls and there he saw the book "Patriarchs and Prophets" by Ellen White. Rabbi Ben asked him about it and where he had gotten it, "Why do you have this book by a Christian author?" The rabbi said, "This as a very authoritative source on our history."
Rob" I believe like the Rabbi here that Ellen White wrote and spoke and lived like a Jew, in the light she understood in her time. Shalom my friend
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Post by Dave on Sept 15, 2021 8:16:09 GMT -5
R" OK, and were the archons initally designed to be good creatures in heaven? They were designed to be RA creatures weren't they?The only though held by the First Archon was – SELF (yester ra) A cow only thinks of SELF (yester ra) – is a cow a RA cresture? So in Rev 12 it says the devil and his messengers fought a bustle with Michael and his messengers. Question: which messengers are these creatures?Easy – they are the BEAST + all his plurality / offspring – the serpent race that we know from Gen 3 are biological - We know they are the most crafty / sunning / devious of all the biological creatures Gen 3:1 But the serpent was shrewder than any animal of the field that Adonai Elohim made. We know God compares them to cows – livestock We know they are of matter (some matter) Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life. This is why they are called the serpent race – all of the same family – BEAST / Great Red Dragon Some are called devils – some are called satanas – they are all false prophets how many creature kinds are mentioned in heaven?KINDS? As in different types? The Jews have 9 and this makes sense because there are 10D – 1 for every D – except the 1st D is the singularity of God alone. Of course there is more than one opinion among the Jews with some variation. Chayoth Ha Kadesh, Ophanim, Erelim, Hashmallim, Seraphim, Malakim, Elohim, Bene Elohim, Cherubim , and Ishim (wiki) Cherubim have four faces, one of a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle (later adopted as the symbols of the four evangelists). They have four conjoined wings covered with eyes (although Revelation 4:8 appears to describe them with six wings like the seraphim), a lion's body, and the feet of oxen. Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden and the throne of God. The cherubim are mentioned in Genesis, Exodus, 2 Chronicles, Ezekiel and 1 Kings.
St. Thomas Aquinas imagined Satan as a fallen Cherub. (mid 12th Century AD)(wiki) St. Thomas Aquinas is 100% Catholic! The Catholic Church honors Thomas Aquinas as a saint and regards him as the model teacher for those studying for the priesthood, and indeed the highest expression of both natural reason and speculative theology.how many creature kinds are mentioned in heaven?If you include the broader Canon – there could be 100s of different types God assigns some to different tasks – heavenly duties/chores Only arrogant man thinks the 7 heavens above us are emptyD"I do not deny scripture Sin came into this world by the actions of one man – EVE – then Adam R" First does the Greek imply gender male or gender female or gender both? It implies gender male doesn't it? WORD GAME!Adam = man, mankind, any man, every man – does Eve belong to a different species?D"Oh I watched it long ago - it didn't say much And you say the movie didn't say much....really?That was your reply to me – when I asked yo to watch and comment on a movieD"Ezekiel 28 - I know you apply the verse to a man, but does the verse actually say a cherub sinned? y/n?That is what is printed in the ahl – correctDoes your view of satan as God’s oppose fit the bulk of scripture – NO Precept upon precept, line upon line – is your satan the god of evil - NOD"We studied each and ever verse – 23 + 49 – not one of them validate your view R" Now that is a false statement. You whittled away my presentation. [ One of us is making a false statement – that’s for sureI make the statement that the word satan in both verb and noun forms must mean the same action, with different levels of action. The word I selected in "oppose or opposer (one who opposes)"NO SIR – you are not allowed to change your theology after two years of aregiuing that your satan opposes God in a Great ControversyZec 3:1 Satan (satan-noun) standing at his right hand to resist (satan-verb) him This verse is a good one to begin, both uses of this Hebrew word must have the same basic meaning, only difference in action Satan is opposing Joshua as God’s faithful prosecutor – working for God not opposing GodPs 109:29 Let mine adversaries (satan-verb) be clothed with shame, YES King David had opposersNu 22:22 ...the Messenger of YHWH stood in the way for an adversary (satan-noun) against him. This adversary is an ANGEL OF THE LORD – working for God not opposing GodThese three verses are all I need to present my case.Proving that Hebrew satan is an AGLEL OF THE LORD – working for God not opposing GodWhat do these verses have to do with proving that the SDA Great Controversy is a valid doctrine?NOTHINGThe Hebrew word means "oppose/opposer (one who opposes)" According to the OT Hebrew, GOD is also able to be an opposer, as in the example of opposing the road Baalim traveled on. Your Great Controversy mandates that satan is evil (ra) and opposes God You God is a satan – you refuse to answer why this doesn’t make your God a sinner and evil Now in the Greek NT you make a big deal over the word Satanas, but since this word related or rooted must come from Hebrew roots, 100% absolute garbage – please correct every Greek text book in existenceIf you just make up stuff – you can just make up anything you want I’ll stick with 2000 years of consistent Greek translation by 1000s of scholarsClearly in the Bible there are beings who oppose God, because Jesus was God on earth.MAN OPPOSED JESUS – the evil spirits of that day knew exactly who Jesus was and their fateWhy did God become an opposer to Baalim? To facilitate God Will / God’s Plan on earthWhat about this opposer, opposing Jesus (dressed as God in human from) , where does this Opposer come from?1- You deny that Jesus Christ was God -= you have 3 different individuals working together sxo love can exist 2- this oppose couldn’t oppse Jesus – Christ did not play satan’s game – just quoted scripture back to satan Mat 4:10 Then Yeshua says to him, “Go away, satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship Adonai your God, and Him only shall you serve.’” Where dose this oppose come from – the archon live in physical creation – they are at home here – this world is their kingdom – their domainWe know in Zec 3:1 an opposer opposed Joshua the high priest.YEP – God’s prosecutor – opposing Joshua not God – rather – working for GodR" Every verse I showed you, oppose/opposer fits.Correct it fits satan opposing man in service to the LordYou can have opposers in tennis match agreeing to each other in friendly terms, but in a contest they oppose each otherWhat does this have to do with Hebrew satan being an angel of the Lord working for the Lord?How does this prove that your satan hates God and opposes GodThe serpent in the garden is a different hebrew word. Only in the latter rain is the term serpent clarified. Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan All these different labels are the same being. What would these Greek words be in Hebrew?YES – Correct – all different names for the serpent race that we know are made with some matter and have nothing in common with the angels of the LordQuestion what is it about a being that causes relationships to oppose? Answer: sinBut you refuse to answer why God is sinning by opposing BalaamHence God opposed Baalim because he was a RA prophet YES – this makes your God a satan – who is a sinner and is only hates and opposes God So now your God is opposing Himself because God is a satanI know sounds all screwed up and nonsense – but it is your presentation The Great Controversy – satan opposes God – hates God – wants others to also hate God – turned 1/3rd of all God’s angels against God D"Hebrew satan serves the Lord – you refuse to answer why it is a sin to serve/obey the lordR" Yes there are some verses where it seems the opposer is serving the Lord.EVERY VERSE shows us this – but you refuse to answer why it is a sin to obey GodD"The best you had was – whoever oppose man oppose God R Yes many verses show the opposer opposing man.What does this have to do with your Great Controversy where satang hates God and opposes God Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Why has no Jew ever commented on how a generation of time is made in a single yom of time? This is talking about relativity here, yet only the Jew Einstein spoke of this. WHAT – no Jew has ever denied Psa 90:4 Why is it that a Jew name Einstein could understand relativity without his Jewish education Why have all the leading quantum physicis been primarily jewisjh – specifically Ashkenazi Jews D"I have asked you to quote one Rabbi that acceopt that doctrine– you have provide none in 2 years R" Sorry, not familiar with Jews... many Jews secretly worship a trinity, in Jerimieah's time, not all Jews follow traditional beliefs.OH COME ON – zero evidence of your satan god before Rome If the doctrine of Fallen Angels existed before Rome – where is it?D"I have shown you the history and the reality – I do not accept your assumptions R" Hmm? fair enough, it would be great to attend Jewish churches you and I and discuss this with Jews who are willing to talk. I would love to talk to an SDA-Jew for example and ask him some questions. You want to talk at them – not listen to them And that is why you have issues with people engaging you seriouslywww.bing.com/search?q=EGW+with+Jew%3F&cvid=ab62787454f544008a71b1938d7098c0&aqs=edge..69i57.5675j0j1&pglt=161&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=LCTSJewish Rabbi claims Ellen White was a Jewish Mishnaic Writer Christ the Way of Life Shall I post something from Mormonism proving Mormonism is valid Maybe I should post something from a Muslim telling why Islam is valid All of them rely on the precepts of men – same scripture
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Post by Dave on Sept 15, 2021 12:17:59 GMT -5
POINT – Robert – you are taking a beating here and still you hang in there – much respect!
I believe in One True God – you do not – you have 3 I believe that Jesus Christ was God on earth – you deny this – God 1 is in heaven and God 2 is on earth so they can talk to one another I believe in the spirit – you do not – it is a sin to believe man has a spirit I seek the spirituality known to the First Fruits – you mock the idea I accept scripture as written – the Best of revelation – the serpent race = Gen 3 serpent race
Absolutely – the broader Canon calls them Beelzebub and the shedim – also a race of matter creatures Every person of the entire globe was exposed to them – this is their WORLD Every culture has a complete history with these false gods – ‘other gods’ – absolutely every one!
The ahl calls them baal, molech, dogon, chermush, isthar, etc etc etc NAMES DON’T MATTER – they are all ‘other gods’ of this WORLD I accept scripture as written – the Best of revelation – the serpent race = Gen 3 serpent race – comparable to a cow (livestock) or to the other beast of the field – eating dust
You ‘believe’ – correction – you have been taught, then you have reinforce that training to say: Two words from Ezk 28 – cherub chata – prove that angel became the evil satan that hates God and talked 1/3rd of God’s angels to also hate God – and they are all are at war against God – in an attempt to alter God’s Plan / God’s Will You even go so far as to say – your satan god change all of God’s creation when Eve took a bite Recreated the entire DNA of everything- or you say – well God was FORCED to respond to your satan god
This forum is a crucible for the truth – is it come out? And from my perspective – more truth comes from the Canon + the Broader Canon – than just your Roman Canon limit
Dose anything here from that Broader Canon change scripture – or help illuminate scripture? Does anything from the Broader Canon suggest the ahl or agl is error – NO Does it deny the Gospel of Salvation or deny the reality of Christ – NO Dose it disagree with Jewish teaching – NO – it is Jewish teaching Does it disagree with the agl – NO
It only disagrees with the Roman Doctrine of Fallen Angels A Jew believes in Hebrew satan A Messianic Jew still knows all about Hebrew satan but adds the agl A Messianic Jews knows Hebrew satan + now they know the Messiah and are told about the Beast
Rome – rewrites the ahl while suppressing the identity of the archon /Beast 1- elevating Hebrew satan to a god of evil 2- this only diminishes God – God is no longer in control of His own Plan 3- your satan recreated his own from and function – sorry no evolution 4- your satan – also changed 1/3rd of the angels God made to serve and praise Him 5- God can’t even hang onto to his own angels – specifically designed to be with Him 6- Weak God – even angels can fall from God’s Grace
What is the satanic teaching of the Roman Catholic You need the Church and the Priest All a spiritual Christain needs is to serve the Lord
To reinforce your dependency on the CHURCH - the Fallen Angels will get you - if your sick the Fallen Angels are hurt you for not listening to the CHURCH - you better come more often and tithe more The Babtist really get carried away - eternal hell fire and brimstone
It is all a Roman Catholic Myth Truth - the Beast - the serpent race are all around us - living in this world with us - we are the tourist here - we are the vistors to their world - their kingdom They are creatures made with some matter - (why some? - because they are invisible or visible) they exist here as physical creaures and invisible entities (evil spirits)= archon spirits
They have always been here - the bane elohiym have always been here - the offspring of the Beast have always been here During the age of Adam/Noah - they were on the ground here as gods and nephilim + spirits During the age of Israel - they were on the ground as rephiem and invisible 'other gods' Today - they are on the ground as the 13 families + their invisible masters Soon (if not already) they will be on the ground again as in the days of Noah Where do they come from - Rev 9 the Abyss is open and they are release How did they get into the abyss? - jailed there for their sins committed during the age of Noah - which is Gen 6 - what is their sin (sinning angels -Jude) - reproduce after your own kind - the commandent given to the animals in Gen 1
precept upon prept, line upon line - it all fits together
If I am 18yrs old with an erection am I evil or just an animal with (yester ra)? Why am I self-conscious about my erection – (yester tov) Which should I choose to act upon? Which is mitzvah or chata?
If I choose chata and (yester ra) – what am I missing? I am missing choosing (yester tov)
Man = (yester tov)+(yester ra) Man is the creature that can choose Man is the creature with the FREE WILL to choose Choose (yester tov) enough – it will lead you – because you strength it Trials and tribulation produce – endurance – faith building – strengthen the spirit within – allowing yourself to not only hear it but also listen to it
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 14:43:44 GMT -5
Greetings Dave THis was emailed to me from the Messanic Jews today:- "But, as Yom Kippur begins today, 99% of the Jewish People do not know Yeshua, and their names are not in His book."
Why do Jews not know Jesus as their Saviour, if their faith system is in the support of GOD? Something is wrong with their belief system, don't you think? Yom Kippur begins today, the easy fast day for all Christians. I will remember to support this.
D" The Jews have 9 and this makes sense because there are 10D – 1 for every D – except the 1st D is the singularity of God alone. Of course there is more than one opinion among the Jews with some variation. Chayoth Ha Kadesh, Ophanim, Erelim, Hashmallim, Seraphim, Malakim, Elohim, Bene Elohim, Cherubim , and Ishim.
Can I have all the Hebrew verses for each of these creature types please? "Ben elohiym" I believe is a idiom to any creature who intelligently gives his will to God, includes both humans, angels and all other unfallen creatutes of the universes of God. I would not term this word as a creature-kind, but a functional descriptor of some quality about their character.
"Elohim" How can elohiym me a creature kind? I thought elohiym refers to the ONE uncaused cause? "Cherubim" is a creature kind. Why? Because it is paralleled to the creating, forming and building of the sanctuary, as a pattern of things created, so the cherub is a creature-kind, of many different functions assigned to them.
"Seraphim" is a functional descriptor of the "cherub". It's a word that means "burning". But the other words, I am not familiar with, please supply verses for them.
So if there was a bustle in heaven one of these 9 creature messengers must be the creature that GOD had a bustle with. Question: which one?
D"WORD GAME! Adam = man, mankind, any man, every man – does Eve belong to a different species? R" The word adon, and adonai are special words which the woman called the foundation leader of the home, her Lord. For example Sarah and Abraham. Abraham was a Lord and spoke to another LORD, who blessed Him.
These are examples of the gender masculine love that must dominate the actions of the home, the responder love does not dominate, only the provider love dominates and the responder love, responds. This is how loving works in a family power. However you do not consider elohiym to be a divine family power.
However you do not consider elohiym created humans in the image of divine family power.
You think it's important to see the provider love sinned first dominated the family governance. It's no word game, Dave.
D"when I asked you to watch and comment on a movie R" Edward Fudge makes a light bulb relization that the soul dies when the body dies. Bingo. All the movie leads to this pivotal moment. Yet the statement takes just 3 seconds of the movie.
RP"Ezekiel 28 - I know you apply the verse to a man, but does the verse actually say a cherub sinned? y/n? D" That is what is printed in the ahl – correct
R" SO if the Hebrew verse is correctly written, why do you wrestle with its application?
D" Does your view of satan as God’s oppose fit the bulk of scripture – NO R" I would not say it like that, your are defining a Catholic view, as you were raised a Catholic.
I would say the statement like this
My view is; God has a cherub that Opposes GOD because the cherub chose to sin.
Does this idea fit the bulk of scripture ? Well how many other verses in the Bible describe a cherub sinning? Let's see
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men,
Jude writes a poetry parallel, he begins by defining the subject as "ungodly men" - therefore these creatures are all sinning before GOD. Therefore all these creatures are OPPOSERS of God, because they oppose God. Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
The OPPOSERS God destroyed. Now Jude moves to generally the destruction of all Opposers who oppose God. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate,
While the term is aggelos, it is referring to angel creature kinds, not messengers, these are a parallel to the passage above, ungodly angels, who also sin and thus oppose God, .
Jude 1:7 ...giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh,
I find it strange Dave you do not allow yourself to see these ungodly angels going over to strange flesh to have sex with woman as your view wants in Gen 6, even Enoch your Gnostic writing says, the angels came down to have sex with the daughters of men.
So these verses do support Ezekiel 28.
The Greek word arche, is listed here.
Jude 1:8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
These cherub defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil...
Why is one cherub in particular termed a devil? Not some prosecutor as you twist, but an accuser of the humans?
Because if ungodly angels sin, and ungodly humans sin, how come some humans can be saved? The ungodly angels fight over this right of God to save some humans. Notice the name in Greek.
Jude 1:12 ..., without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Why are ungodly angels who sin, twice dead, plucked up by the roots? God gave them a second chance, earth, and these angels keep on sinning, twice dead. Jude 1:13 ...; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
The angels are termed stars, see Job, yet they will experience umbra shadow of death. Nonexistence.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
THis book you admonish will condemn you, you don't follow your own Gnostic book, terms the angels choosing to become ungodly, fornicate and have sex with human daughters.
Jude 1:15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, both ungodly humans and ungodly cherubs
Jude 1:15 and to convince all that are ungodly among them both ungodly humans and ungodly cherubs
Jude 1:15 of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, both ungodly humans and ungodly cherubs who sin
Jude 1:15 and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against GOD.
both ungodly humans and ungodly cherubs who sin against GOD, as OPPOSERS of GOD.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought
Same as in Jude, again backing up Ezekiel 28. Just as GOD and his angels war over humans who sin on earth.
Just as GOD and his angels war over angels who sinned in heaven.
Just as GOD and his angels war over angels who sinned on earth.
The same theme over the sinning problem continues.
RP" I make the statement that the word satan in both verb and noun forms must mean the same action, with different levels of action. The word I selected in "oppose or opposer (one who opposes)" D" NO SIR – you are not allowed to change your theology after two years of arguing that your satan opposes God in a Great Controversy R" I have not changed my theology? You are emotional again. I have always used the term "oppose/opposer" any creature that sins "opposes God and is an opposer of God",.
D"Satan is opposing Joshua as God’s faithful prosecutor – working for God not opposing God One of us is making a false statement – that’s for sure R" You are Dave, how can oppose, opposer suddenly also mean working for God?
Zec 3:1 An Opposer (satan-noun) standing at his right hand to Oppose(satan-verb) Joshua.
OK let's right in who Joshua stands for ? Same Hebrew spelling.
Zec 3:1 An Opposer (satan-noun) standing at his right hand to Oppose(satan-verb) Yashuah.
OK lets make it easier
Zec 3:1 An Opposer (satan-noun) standing at his right hand to Oppose(satan-verb) JESUS.
Why does an opposer oppose Jesus as our high Priest in heaven?
You say the opposer is helping Jesus as our high priest in heaven?
Does Jesus need some creature to investigate the sinning records of humans, Jesus is atoning for?
Today is Yom Kippur, so you better get this day right, or your name in Not in the Lamb's Book of Life?
Does Jesus need a prosecutor to Help Jesus save sinners? Y/n?
Ex 23:21 Beware of Jesus, and obey Jesus' voice, provoke Jesus not; for Jesus will not pardon your transgressions: for the Father's name is in His Son, Jesus.
Not a single mention of any other creature help.
Ps 79:9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Who removes sin, Salvation the Person does.
Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Only saved under the name of Salvation, the Person.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
No mention of other creatures helping the names added to Jesus book of life.
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
No mention of other creatures helping the names added to Jesus book of life
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. I am sorry Dave to burst your view thinking, but Jesus does not need helpers helping Jesus investigate sinners who sin. Zec 3:1 An Opposer (satan-noun) standing at his right hand to Oppose(satan-verb) JESUS.
OK why does an Opposer oppose Jesus on the day of Atonement?
Because the Opposer gets the sins, he tricked unto the supporters of Jesus, and carries the guilt until the Opposer dies of those sins. The Scapegoat is a symbol of the Opposer. Some Jews also see Azarial as a symbol of the creature taking the sinning atoned for by Jesus away.
D"Proving that Hebrew satan is an AGLEL OF THE LORD – working for God not opposing God What do these verses have to do with proving that the SDA Great Controversy is a valid doctrine? NOTHING R" Dave, those three verses show the term "oppose and opposer" fits all the contexts of the other verses as well. First I establish the verses mean "oppose and opposer" .... but you rush ahead into application....
First does not sinning oppose GOD? Y/n? Is the one sinning an OPPOSER of God, y/n?
Get this foundation right and the application follows later, see my comments on Jude.
D"You God is a satan – you refuse to answer why this doesn’t make your God a sinner and evil R" YOu twist, you mock
God is not a Satan. No
God can OPPOSE sinning creatures who sin, YES.
God is an OPPOSER of sin, Yes.
But a creature who sins also OPPOSES God.
A creature who keeps on sinning becomes an OPPOSER of GOD. God never opposes a sinless creature.
Please use the Hebrew term correctly. Stop using the wrong meaning of the Hebrew/....."the Satan"... the correct term is "an opposer".... any creature who sins becomes an Opposer of GOD. AND God also OPPOSES the sinning.
D"100% absolute garbage – please correct every Greek text book in existence If you just make up stuff – you can just make up anything you want R" OK cross reference the LXX verses to the NT verses and see what the LXX does with your terms satan and satanas. ANd let me and other readers see your stuff.
D"MAN OPPOSED JESUS – the evil spirits of that day knew exactly who Jesus was and their fate R" Again you are not reading Jude very well. These evil spirits are ungodly angels who left their first estate and sinned, therefore opposing God.
D" You deny that Jesus Christ was God -= you have 3 different individuals working together so love can exist R" Well there are two Hebrew words for love.
One cannot be loving on their own. A provider cannot respond to himself. That is selfish love. Does the term self exist in a sinless world? No
Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Jeff says this word "thyself" is wrong, it means to compare.
SO love your neighour like God love you.
If God made gender male and gender female in their image, there must be two personalities of loving within elohiym. Gen 1:26. Love cannot be loving on it's own. Impossible. Love cannot be loving to other creatures with complete perfection. Ge 2:20 ...but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
So angels or other creature kinds cannot reference Gen 1:26
God has a help mate within the elohiym kind. "In their image".
Jews ignore their own Scripture on the sinless concept of a family.
Question Who fed the visitors from heaven food? Sarah, Abraham or servants? Answer the family did, but it is written as Abraham did, the foundation Lord.
D"YEP – God’s prosecutor – opposing Joshua not God – rather – working for God R" I suggest you study Yom Kippor carefully.
D"YES – Correct – all different names for the serpent race that we know are made with some matter and have nothing in common with the angels of the Lord R" Not according to your Gnostic book of Enoch, the fallen angels causes the serpent race.
D"But you refuse to answer why God is sinning by opposing Balaam R" Word game Dave. Since when does oppose also mean sin? Or opposer mean sinner? There are two Hebrew words for a reason, to make different meanings.
Like you mix ruwach and nephesh together too.
Stop twisting the word meanings of words....
D"YES – this makes your God a satan – who is a sinner and is only hates and opposes God So now your God is opposing Himself because God is a satan R" No it makes God an opposer of creatures who sin.
Sinners are creatures who sin, God is never seen in any verse as a chata, pesha or such terms for sinning.
There is a reference to RA RUWACH, but RA is not direct sinning, it is the FRUIT of sin, that becomes RA.
Again watch carefully the word meaning of Hebrew words, defined the words carefully first, than do application.
D"What does this have to do with your Great Controversy where satan hates God and opposes God R" you twist from your Catholic training.
satan is a term meaning oppose. Does an opposer hate? maybe, can?
A sinner is one who sins, and by defintion opposes God. Does a sinner hate God? Maybe, since the sinner loves his sinning and God hates the sinning he does. Read through my comments of Jude in this post.
D"OH COME ON – zero evidence R" Why did Jews worship the Queen of heaven long ago?
D"If the doctrine of Fallen Angels existed before Rome – where is it? R" If the doctrine of Amanuah in Salvation existed before NT – where is it?
hidden, of the 3 million Hebrews saved in Exodus, only 2 made it to the promised land. Scripture does not made things easily spelled out for a reason....
D"Maybe I should post something from a .... R" Shame on you, discrediting the witness of a fellow Jew who loved Mrs White.
D"I believe in One True God – you do not – you have 3 R" Hebrew defines a sinless family as One foundation Lord, all power flows through Him. The Hebrew tent had one door that cross the masculine quarters, not the whole family. The men ate first, especially before visitors.
In fact Hebrew defines a marriage as ONE unit, both couples are seen as ONE DNA strand. SO Dave you are made of one DNA strand? All other humans have two strands that complementy each other? ANd four copies of that strand from two couples, all considered as ONE info about you. D"I believe in the spirit – you do not – it is a sin to believe man has a spirit R" I believe in the spirit of Jesus, and man to to acquire literally the spirit of Jesus in us via a creative process. You do not support this idea. You think made has his own spirit he must develop on his own...
D"I accept scripture as written – the Best of revelation – the serpent race = R" YOu don;t even support your Gnsotic book of Enoch which says angels came down from heaven to sexually fornicate with woman....
D"well God was FORCED to respond R" Question" Can RA really exist is GOD does nothing to make RA exist?
If a sinner wants to sin, technically immediately they shoudl cease to exist... do you agree? Therefore , yes, GOD has to respond when a creature sins..... go figure....
The prodigal son, the responder GOD was responding every day.... looking...waiting....crying....
Come one Dave, SIN is a big problem to God.... D"This forum is a crucible for the truth – is it come out? And from my perspective – more truth comes from the Canon + the Broader Canon – than just your Roman Canon limit R" Yes it has been OK, I enjoyed battling with you. SHalom for now
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Post by Dave on Sept 15, 2021 23:36:35 GMT -5
Why do Jews not know Jesus as their Saviour, if their faith system is in the support of GOD? Something is wrong with their belief system, don't you think?
Or they are God’s chosen people Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be ignorant of this mystery—lest you be wise in your own eyes—that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Rom 11:26 and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
How can Israel be called back together from the ends of the earth to re-establish the Nation of Israel before Ezk 38 – if they no longer exist? You need to read your scripture more
D"WORD GAME! Adam = man, mankind, any man, every man – does Eve belong to a different species? R" It's no word game, Dave. So only men are cursed – and only men became sinners Women everywhere are not included in sin or salivation WORD GAME
D"when I asked you to watch and comment on a movie R" Edward Fudge makes a light bulb relization that the soul dies when the body dies. Bingo. All the movie leads to this pivotal moment. Yet the statement takes just 3 seconds of the movie. How many times have I asked you to watch something and you blew me off Is this a fair two way discussion?
RP"Ezekiel 28 - I know you apply the verse to a man, but does the verse actually say a cherub sinned? y/n? D" That is what is printed in the ahl – correct R" SO if the Hebrew verse is correctly written, why do you wrestle with its application? Precept upon precept, line upon line – scripture must validate itself You have not shown me one verse to validate Ezk – if you cannot then you either do not understand the verse – or you do not have enough information
D" Does your view of satan as God’s opposer fit the bulk of scripture – NO R" I would not say it like that, your are defining a Catholic view, as you were raised a Catholic. I would say the statement like this My view is; God has a cherub that Opposes GOD because the cherub chose to sin. YEP – 100% Catholic doctrine of Fallen Angels – word for word on the SDA website
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, MEN – how does this prove your satan opposes God?
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
The OPPOSERS God destroyed. YEP – God sent the angel of death onto the Egyptians and drowned the army in the Red Sea Or maybe it was one of your other gods because your Father God is not allowed to do harm - your doctrine
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, Yep – the messengers that did not keep their first estate – the Archon of gen 6
While the term is aggelos, it is referring to angel creature kinds, not messengers, Aggelos are messengers - DUH
Jud 1:7 In the same way as these angels, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them—having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after a different sort of flesh—are displayed as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire. Yep – the archon of Gen 6
For 2 years you have argued – angels cannot mate with women Now it is your argument – flip flop Christian
Jude 1:12 ..., without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Why are ungodly angels who sin, twice dead, plucked up by the roots? God gave them a second chance, earth, and these angels keep on sinning, twice dead. HOW CAN YOU ASK THIS - YOU DENY THE SECOND DEATH - מותH תמות׃H - remember
RP" I make the statement that the word satan in both verb and noun forms must mean the same action, with different levels of action. The word I selected in "oppose or opposer (one who opposes)" D" NO SIR – you are not allowed to change your theology after two years of arguing that your satan opposes God in a Great Controversy R" I have not changed my theology?. I have always used the term "oppose/opposer" any creature that sins "opposes God and is an opposer of God",. Correct – you insist that the term satan means to oppose and hate God – war against God It is your Great Controversy – two opposing Gods in a constant wars with one another
D"Satan is opposing Joshua as God’s faithful prosecutor – working for God not opposing God One of us is making a false statement – that’s for sure R" You are Dave, how can oppose, opposer suddenly also mean working for God? Because he is God’s prosecutor accusing Joshua - DUH
D"Proving that Hebrew satan is an AGLEL OF THE LORD – working for God not opposing God What do these verses have to do with proving that the SDA Great Controversy is a valid doctrine? NOTHING R" Dave, those three verses show the term "oppose and opposer" fits all the contexts of the other verses as well. So what – how does this prove your satan opposes the lord – opposes the lord
D"Your God is a satan – you refuse to answer why this doesn’t make your God a sinner and evil R YOu twist, you mock God is not a Satan. No God can OPPOSE sinning creatures who sin, YES. God is an OPPOSER of sin, Yes. And you claim it the definition of your satan the opposer Yes – I mock your word game
D"100% absolute garbage – please correct every Greek text book in existence If you just make up stuff – you can just make up anything you want R" OK cross reference the LXX verses to the NT verses and see what the LXX does with your terms satan and satanas. ANd let me and other readers see your stuff. G4567 - Σατανᾶς - Of Chaldee origin; the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan. Does not exist in the ahl G4566 - Σατᾶν - Of Hebrew origin [H7854]; Satan, Does not exist in the ahl Greek for H7854 hebrew satan = G1228 – διάβολος - a traducer; specifically Satan, false accuser, devil, slanderer.
D"But you refuse to answer why God is sinning by opposing Balaam R" Word game Dave. Since when does oppose also mean sin? TO OPPOSE MAN IS TO OPPOSE GOD this is your presentation – proof that your satan hates God and opposes God because satan opposes man – that is a sin
D"YES – this makes your God a satan – who is a sinner and is only hates and opposes God So now your God is opposing Himself because God is a satan R" No it makes God an opposer of creatures who sin. And to oppose man is to oppose God – did you mean it – are you changing your position flip flopper
D"What does this have to do with your Great Controversy where satan hates God and opposes God R" you twist from your Catholic training. satan is a term meaning oppose. OH – you satan doesn’t hate God – he just opposes God OK – what dose all your noise hear have to with proving your satan opposes God?
D"OH COME ON – zero evidence R" Why did Jews worship the Queen of heaven long ago? Judges 2:1-5 read it - you should really spend more time in scripture
D"If the doctrine of Fallen Angels existed before Rome – where is it? R" If the doctrine of Amanuah in Salvation existed before NT – where is it? Nice answer Robert – no answer – then attack the Jews Elish knew more about Faith than his servant or you Are you questioning the faith of Isaiah and anyone else from the ahl
D"Maybe I should post something from a .... R" Shame on you, discrediting the witness of a fellow Jew who loved Mrs White. I bet I can find a testimonial that garbage is a good diet – does it mean it is fact Why do you rely on the precept of men instead of scripture?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2021 14:15:27 GMT -5
Greetings" RP"Why do Jews not know Jesus as their Saviour, if their faith system is in the support of GOD? Something is wrong with their belief system, don't you think?
D" Or they are God’s chosen people Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be ignorant of this mystery—lest you be wise in your own eyes—that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Rom 11:26 and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
How can Israel be called back together from the ends of the earth to re-establish the Nation of Israel before Ezk 38 – if they no longer exist? You need to read your scripture more R" Dave you need to read your scripture more. I will allow the Mesanic Jews comment on this:-
"And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all… For He shall bear their iniquities…." (Isaiah 53:6, 11) Rabbis of ancient times viewed Isaiah 53 as a Messianic prophecy. Most agreed that it speaks of the Messiah of Israel. Sadly, this Messianic prophecy has been effectively hidden from most Jewish people, even those who faithfully attend synagogue services, by omitting the entire chapter from the Sabbath readings. R" Traditional Jews do not even read Isaiah 53, or Daniel 8-9, or the NT.
Why? Maybe because the chapter so perfectly describes the atonement Yeshua made for us through the sacrifice of His own life as the suffering servant.
Revealing the Jewish Messiah to the Jewish People through their own Scriptures is why we so desperately need to make the Messianic Prophecy Bible available to them! The current rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 proposes that this passage does not speak of the Messiah but that it speaks of the nation of Israel. This interpretation seems to have gained serious adherents only in the 13th century. In reality, it is a deception that is promoted throughout the Jewish community to blind Jewish people from seeing that Isaiah 53 perfectly describes Yeshua who suffered for our sins. Not all rabbis have agreed with this willfully wrong interpretation. In a strongly worded 14th century commentary, Rabbi Moshe Kohen ibn Crispin said: “[In contrast to those] having inclined after the stubbornness of their own hearts and their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret the parasha [Isaiah 53] in accordance with the teachings of our rabbis, of the King Messiah… and adhere to the literal sense. Thus I shall be free from forced and far-fetched interpretations of which others are guilty.” R" The Jews are traditionally stubborn stiff necked and do not even follow their own Hebrew Scriptures.
Similarly, Moses Alshech, a 16th century rabbi, preacher, and Bible commentator said, “Our rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet [Isaiah] is here [chapter 53] speaking of the Messiah.” Numerous rabbinic commentators also take for granted that Isaiah 52:13–53:12 refers to the Messiah. The following quotes are gleaned from traditional rabbinic sources: “He, Messiah, shall intercede for man’s sins, and the rebellious, for his sake, shall be forgiven.” (Jerusalem Targum on Isaiah 53:12) “And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon them as it is written, ‘By his stripes we were healed,’ and ‘he carried the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.’” (Genesis Rabbah on Isaiah 53:5, 12) In a limited sense, however, Israel has suffered as an azazel "scapegoat" for the nations. Because of the blindness with which Adonai temporarily afflicted Israel with regard to their Messiah, salvation (Yeshua) has come to the Gentiles. "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in… and so all Israel shall be saved…. (Romans 11:25–27) R" Notice the context of the Messanic Jews describing the fate of the traditional Jews.
"And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity [avon] of us all." (Isaiah 53:6) In Hebrew, the word iniquity is avon. This word differs from the Hebrew word for sin (chata) which means to fall short and miss the mark. Avon is rooted in the Hebrew verb avah meaning to twist and to distort. It signifies an inner crookedness or spiritual state of being bent — in other words, perversity, as well as a willful departure from the law (Torah) of God R" Funny I thought Avon means "guilt". The Jews writing here consider "being bent, preverse, crooked" Hmm? Why is there no Hebrew word for guilt than, according to Jews? Notice they say 99% of Jews are lost, why? Because they do not follow their own Scriptures.
This conclusion comes from the Messanic Jews themselves.
D"So only men are cursed – and only men became sinners Women everywhere are not included in sin or salivation WORD GAME R" You twist and make your own doctrines Dave. word game. In Daniel's time, the older wise men failed before the King, so the king ordered the death of all wise men, this included the other younger wise men, like Daniel. Not all things make sense to you because you do not think in Hebrew culture, which is different to Greek cultural thinking. D"Precept upon precept, line upon line – scripture must validate itself You have not shown me one verse to validate Ezk – if you cannot then you either do not understand the verse – or you do not have enough information R" Let's try another example of your problem Dave. You play word games and make false applications.
You say satan has one meaning, than has another meaning. For example a friendly prosecutor. Avon, does this mean "being bent, preverse, crooked" or simply one with "guilt?
Ge 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My "guilt" is greater than I can bear. (First use of this word)
Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine "guilt"? (oldest and first use of this word in Job)
Job 10:14 ¶ If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine "guilt". Somebody who has guilt is "bent, perverse and crooked", so why make the meaning complex?
But you Dave say the word "satan" also means "prosecutor" you play word game and twist opposite meaning upon the word. In Zechariah, Jesus is our high priest, saving people from their sinning. God is allowed to save people from their sin? Yes. So you pick a word that carries accusation yet doing a service, ie prosecutor. The opposer opposes Jesus doing his job of atoning for sin. How is this a being doing friendly service to God?
Zec 3:1 and Prosecutor standing at Jesus' right hand to prosecute Jesus.
Both noun and verb forms of this word have to have the same meaning. So if a prosecutor prosecutes the Saviour of the world, is this a good service to Jesus? No, its evil to suggest this.
RPJude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, D" Yep – the messengers that did not keep their first estate – the Archon of gen 6
RP" While the term is aggelos, it is referring to angel creature kinds, not messengers, D" Aggelos are messengers - DUH R" Dave the context cannot be messengers, but reference not to their functional action of carrying a message, but to their being a creature. OK so there is NO way to identify in the NT Greek who these messengers are? How clever to destroy the latter rain of the torah, using a terrible translation? Suits you doesn't it?
Question how does the LXX translate verses with cherub in them?
Gen 3: 24 καὶ ἐξέβαλε τὸν ᾿Αδὰμ καὶ κατῴκισεν αὐτὸν ἀπέναντι τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς καὶ ἔταξε τὰ Χερουβὶμ καὶ τὴν φλογίνην ρομφαίαν τὴν στρεφομένην φυλάσσειν τὴν ὁδὸν τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς.
You read Greek, what does this mean here? I don't see aggelos here?
Does the LXX have aggelos for cheribum anywhere else in the OT?
Give me some examples of how the LXX translates cherub please, as I do not read Greek that well.
Also tell me how the LXX translates the OT term satan, no examples of satanas you claim in the OT?
Thanks for this word study. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 16, 2021 15:09:17 GMT -5
RP"Why do Jews not know Jesus as their Saviour, if their faith system is in the support of GOD? Something is wrong with their belief system, don't you think? D" Or they are God’s chosen people Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be ignorant of this mystery—lest you be wise in your own eyes—that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Rom 11:26 and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
How can Israel be called back together from the ends of the earth to re-establish the Nation of Israel before Ezk 38 – if they no longer exist? You need to read your scripture more R" Dave you need to read your scripture more. I will allow the Mesanic Jews comment on this:- Sadly, this Messianic prophecy has been effectively hidden from most Jewish people, even those who faithfully attend synagogue services, by omitting the entire chapter from the Sabbath readings. R" Traditional Jews do not even read Isaiah 53, or Daniel 8-9, or the NT. a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; It is the hand of God – saved to be of use later in God’s Plan Why do you deny scripture?
The current rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 proposes that this passage does not speak of the Messiah but that it speaks of the nation of Israel. It speaks of both
R" The Jews are traditionally stubborn stiff necked and do not even follow their own Hebrew Scriptures. a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; It is the hand of God – saved to be of use later in God’s Plan Why do you deny scripture?
Notice they say 99% of Jews are lost, why? Because they do not follow their own Scriptures. 99% of Christian are lost because they do not follow scripture
D"So only men are cursed – and only men became sinners Women everywhere are not included in sin or salivation WORD GAME R" You twist and make your own doctrines Dave. word game. ADAM = Mankind
D"Precept upon precept, line upon line – scripture must validate itself You have not shown me one verse to validate Ezk – if you cannot then you either do not understand the verse – or you do not have enough information R" Let's try another example of your problem Dave. You play word games and make false applications. You say satan has one meaning, than has another meaning. For example a friendly prosecutor. I say satanas is of the serpent race – offspring of the Beast I say Hebrew satan is God’s prosecutor – so do the Jews You just want to blend them together to corrupt scripture – because it is your Catholic tradition
RP" While the term is aggelos, it is referring to angel creature kinds, not messengers, D" Aggelos are messengers - DUH OK so there is NO way to identify in the NT Greek who these messengers are? How clever to destroy the latter rain of the torah, using a terrible translation? Suits you doesn't it?
NO – aggelos has always meant messengers Mat 11:10-11 is John the Baptist an angel? Mar 1:2-4 - is John the Baptist an angel? Luk 7:24 , - not only is John an angel bur he has his own angels Luk 9:52 - if Jesus send you on an errand – you become and angel? Jas 2:25 The Spys of Joshua were not men – they had to be angels NO – aggelos has always meant messengers You just want to plan word games in English
Question how does the LXX translate verses with cherub in them? As cherub
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2021 15:47:28 GMT -5
Happy Shabbat Dave D "aggelos has always meant messengersR" I agree with this So is there is a way to identify in the NT Greek who these messengers from heaven are? RP" Question how does the LXX translate verses with cherub in them?D" As cherubIs there a cross reference where the NT is quoting the OT with the term "cherub"? Heb 9:5 And over it <autos> the cherubims < cheroubim> Only one, Heb 9:5. So is there is a way to identify in the NT Greek who these messengers from heaven are? Hmm? I will get back to you on this idea? Let's begin with identifying what creature-kind is Gabriel? Can you supply a text? Is Gabriel a cherub? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2021 16:04:38 GMT -5
Gabriel is the fifth of the five angels who keep watch: "Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim" (1 Enoch 20:7). jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6450-gabrielWith Michael, Gabriel is mentioned by name in the Book of Daniel, where he explains to Daniel his visions (Dan. viii. 16-26, ix. 21-27). He appears to Zacharias, and announces to Mary that she is about to have a son whose name shall be "Jesus" (Luke i. 19-31). Gabriel is one of the four angels that stand at the four sides of God's throne and serve as guardian angels of the four parts of the globe (Enoch, ix. 1; comp. Kautzsch, "Die Apokryphen und Pseudepigraphen des Alten Testaments," ii. 240, note). Who did the Jews reference? ENOCHI also have several books here that discuss the possibility the Gabriel – was actually Gab-briel (female)1- She is always associated with the announcement of child birth 2- she appeared to Mary – to discuss child birth – in Jewish tradition – that would never have been male to female – only female to female 3- Mid Rash – has a legend of the angel Gab-briel – babysitting a fetus in the womb for months because the mother was unconscious and dying – This would have been a feminine duty Truth – angels are not male or female – they are etherealWe know they appear as men – human men We know they appear as spirit beings – angelic wings = glowing bright We know they can appear in a multidimensional form – Ezk 1 We know that they can appear female Zec 5 But of all the angels – Gab-briel is the only one identified as female – because of his/her/its functionGabiel is one of the 4 to 6 (dependent upon source) 'Named' Ark Angels that - stand at the four sides of God's throne and serve as guardian angels Gabriel is above / over / higher rank than the cherub Was Gabriel a cherub? - not according to ahl theology for the last 5000 years
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2021 22:27:45 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
It's a hard thing finding out who the messengers are in heaven? Even Mrs White does not mention cherubs to Gabriel, but she does speak of cherub, just nothing I can focus on.
Hover she does mention this
"Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, “son of the morning;” how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his. "
How does one find the Hebrew to prove this, I tried to show you but you ignore the verses/
Notice she uses terms "covering cherub" , "seraph", "son of the morning" these are references to Scripture.
I will get back to you on this subject. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 18, 2021 9:36:53 GMT -5
It's a hard thing finding out who the messengers are in heaven? Even Mrs White does not mention cherubs to Gabriel, but she does speak of cherub, just nothing I can focus on. Precepts of men
How does one find the Hebrew to prove this, I tried to show you but you ignore the verses
Limit yourself to only Roman approved information– and you only discover the approved Roman view Expose yourself to Judaism and possible you might expand your knowledge base
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