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Post by Dave on Sept 2, 2021 6:47:13 GMT -5
Can a spirit, see, eat, walk and be defiled by biology? Answer no. Only the body sees, eats, walks and is defiled by poisons we ingest. Sure - of course they canAre you telling me the evil spirits cannot see you Are you saying that those in heaven cannot see you here on earth Even your guardian angels cannot see you The Holy is unable to find you – because the Holy Spirit cannot see you What a bunch of nonsense Yet Dave there are numerous text I showed you about the body in heaven.We are 3D because we live in the 3rd dimension Where is heaven – it co-exist in the same location as us – heaven is not up or down – it is all around us If heavenly creatures were just simple 3D – we would be able to tee it / them Sorry Robert – heavenly being are of a higher dimension – not 3DA spirit does not need food to eat, but only a spirit in a body requires food to eat, yet we eat food in heaven. To make abdolute claims about life in another dimension is just – imagination and fantasyA spirit does not have form, shape or a forehead, but the spirit in it's body does have shape, form and a forehead, yet in heaven we have a body.Not a 3 dimensional biology body We will be changed – we will be like Him – why do you deny scriptureMt 26:26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. A spirit does not require to eat the body, yet Jesus said we are to eat His body in order to obtain His spirit? This saying was so confusing lots of Jewish followers left Jesus, because they did nto understand Him. Therefore the spirit only comes through the body.I have no idea what you have said hereAre you preaching cannibalism – I asked you to explain this You say the body of Jesus is biology just like mans – how can bread walk and talk?Ga 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. A spirit has no marks, no form no scars of RA, only a body does, so why does Paul say I bear in my body the marks of Jesus? Because Paul assimilated the body of Jesus literally, but this is meant in a spiritual sense. This sentence we wrote is hard to fathom, no wonder Jews misunderstood Jesus words.The heavens are not 3D reality – the heavens are of a higher dimension Doesn’t have to be literal or not – because it is of a higher energy level that us How can a man be born of a body twice, Nicodemus said. Jesus said ye must be born again. Was Jesus only talking about a spirit birth or a literal body birth, or something else? Spiritual awakening – spiritual connection – spirit to spirit = revelationEph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, Do you understand this verse – praying not with your body, biology, brain – but spirit
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray in my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praises with my spirit, and I will also sing praises with my mind. 1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. The spirit is not the mind / brain / our understanding / education / IQ Pray in the spirit – Praise in the spirit Do you understand this verse – no – you deny this verseJoh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. God is NOT 3D biology – God is Spirit – God can see me and you just fine We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit Do you understand this verse – no – you deny this verseIf Enoch walked right into heaven in his body, it could not have been his old RA body, so the creative development in the compassion centre of the HS must be a literal body development as well as a spiritual development, otherwise Enoch would have been imperfect in heaven. Enoch earthy garments were exchange for heavily garments Just as Joshua was given heavenly garments---------------------- D"The Body return to the dust from where it came The spirit of man / his soul returns to God You deny scripture R" Whoo...hang on Dave...major Bible verse mistake... Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit "HS/ruwach" shall return unto God who gave it. spirit "HS/ruwach" returns to GOD who gave it, yes. You deny that man is spirit – so you do not understand praying in the spirit – or praising in the spirit You deny that man is an in depended individual – alone – uniquic You preach that we are each just a fragment of God in each biological body – put us all back together in heaven again and God is complete – SCIENTOLOGY – L Ron Hubbard – aka DIANETICSD"Glorify God – who comes into your body as the Comforter – who communes with your spirit R" So what, the HS can empower you with Jesus power, even though the body cells are imperfect and dysfunctional? Don’t you mean to say – the HS (that is not us) can comfort the HS (that is us)- because you claim there is no us – no independent and individual us – you claim that we are just fragments of the HSEnoch never went to heaven – it was just the HS going into heaven?D"Correct – REMADE - we will be like He is – changed – appear /disappear – walk through walls R" yes, biology that does not follow necessarily natural law.You mean to say – no longer 3D like us – but of a higher dimension like JesusD"OK Mr diet restrictions are necessary to be save teacher – teach me this You are captured by the enemy – you are in jail – all you have to eat is red meat Why does this cost you your salvation R" Hmm? The entire Romans 14 is devoted to this question Dave, read it. Rom 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of disputes about opinions. Rom 14:2 One person has faith to eat anything, but the weak eats only vegetables. Rom 14:3 Don’t let the one who eats disparage the one who does not eat, and don’t let the one who does not eat judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day over another while another judges every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. Rom 14:6 The one who observes that day does so to the Lord. The one who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who abstains, abstains to the Lord, and he gives thanks to God. 1- no dietary laws required 2- if you make a vow to God – you better keep it 3- If you vow to God that you will NEVER – kiss a rock – you better never kiss a rock 4- If you do not make this man-made law for yourself – then it is not a law 5- salvation is not about any law D"Will you walk around in the New Earth with only one arm? R" Nothing imperfect resides in heaven, Except Jesus full of holesD"Mar 7:15 There is nothing outside the man that can make him unholy by going into him. R " Yes There is no dietary restriction to be a Christian – no man-made laws or preceptsR" Jesus bread is called in Hebrew "man", his body was manna sent by Jesus for people to eat. Other bread is a poor simile of this bread from heaven. D" If you eat Christ body up – what would be left? R" DO not understand?You claim that everything in heaven is just 3D biology – it is a limited thing Robert A cracker – is a metaphor for spirituality But you deny the spiritD"Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. CONTRADICTORY TO YOUR THEOLOGY D" You claim Jesus Christ was not God in craniate – he was just a manR" I never said that. Jesus was elohiym, fully divine, and added humanity to His divinity. I will quote you – you honest manYou absolutely deny that spirit can NOT exist as an independent individual Then you talk of the soul and body being in two locations Just double talk RobertOH - you quote yourself - double speakerThis is blasphemy against the Spirit – Jesus commended His spirit to God – the spirit returns to God You deny scriptureD" How can the soul exist as an individual entity without the body? R" It can't. Once the body dies, the soul also dies. I have spoken of my definition of death, it's not the same as most people.OK now we are back to more double speak So scripture is wrong when a body dies the soul go to the dust just like all animals? Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?D" You absolutely argue against the concept that man has a free and independent spirit R" No I don't. Man has a free and independent spirit, it is called in Hebrew nashamah, this Hebrew word is also used with ruwach at the same time. Then what is all this crap about man has no soul or spirit he is just the HSNashamah is man's free and independent spirit, administrated by the ruwach-HS that lives in our soul also.So free and independent is the same as being a puppet Is man a spirit – or is man just biology driven around by the HSD"And you were supposed to teach me how these two different stories – set almost 10 years apart Prove through the SDA Great Controversy that Jesus was a Nazarite R" If these things bother you so much, let's go through them, however much of the problem is your understanding of history, not the Bible. In short the details of history , ie the facts are not clear. Perhaps it was meant to be this way? You have had plenty of opportunity to prove to me that these two stories do not contradict You are so willing to dismiss Enoch because you are jealous that he has a prophetic ability and you do not – but Mathew and Luke – that’s ok – it can remain – If Rome likes it is must be OK in your eyes You have a double standard Something are a big deal for you - all of Enoch is a lie Enoch is quoted in the agl only second to Isaiah - and you claim is must all be a lie But Rome says Mathew and Luke is OK - so overlook it But you also deny that you support Catholicism in its entirtitey - CatholicD"Serious conversation is it? R" so Dave if the extreme depravity of the body does affect the decisions of the mind, what about the less extremes? Anytime (yester ra) is in control (extreme or not) – (yester tov) is not!------------------------------------ So, we must ask ourselves from a Jewish Hebraic perspective, what did Yeshua want us to understand when He said, “This is my body”? Yeshua often spoke about Himself in metaphors, especially in terms of bread and life.
He said, “I am the bread of life” and “I am the living bread that came down from heaven.” (John 6:35, 51)
He explained to His disciples, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” (John 6:63)
Yeshua’s words are spirit and life because He is the Word of God in flesh (John 1:1,14). Since this is true, every time Yeshua speaks, we can replace “I” with “Spirit” and “the Word.”
We can, therefore, understand His teaching about eating His body and drinking His blood this way:
“Unless you eat the flesh [Spirit / Word] of the Son of Man and drink His blood [Spirit / Word], you have no life in yourselves. Rob" Unless you eat the [Word's] of Jesus and drink His [Spirit ] you have no life in yourselves. That is what faith means.
“He who eats My flesh [Spirit / Word] and drinks My blood [Spirit / Word] has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. . . This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread [Spirit / Word], will live forever.” (John 6:53–58)
Symbolically consuming the Word of God is not a foreign concept in Judaism.OH -I SEE – YOUR POINT CLEARILY NOW If a Messianic Jew says is – thats OK But if Dave quotes it – you must attack and tear downThe Gospel of Philip - The Nag Hammadi LibrarySome are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh (Robert does), and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said " He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing. You need to decide if man is a spirit or just a lump of biologyIn his book, God In Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism, Rabbi Abraham Heschel says that "the goal is for man to be an incarnation of the Torah; for the Torah to be in man, in his soul and in his deeds" (p. 311).YES – this is the point Gen 26:5 because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My mitzvot, My decrees, and My instructions.” The only instruction Abraham had was from God in the WOMBJoh 14:26 But the Helper, the Ruach ha-Kodesh whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything and remind you of everything that I said to you. Teaching you = reminding you of what he already told you in the WOMBRob" I would say this is what amanuah means, not incarnation per se'Then why do you preach we must support Jesus with a bunch of dos and don’ts You must say the right prayers and do not eat the wrong stuffWe need to be open to hearing what the Spirit has to say because He knows it all anyway: “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?” asked David (verse 7).Rob" Correct, hear the spirit of Jesus, not our spirit, but His spirit that must become our spirit. Why do the Messanic supporters term "He (the Spirit) knows it all anyway"? Isn't the Spirit feminine?You absolutely deny the spirit – do you have any idea of what they are saying – NO TRINITY – God=HS / HS=God / God = Christ / Christ = God / Christ = HS / HS = ChristThe only person person the planet that is confused is you True repentance means that once we have acknowledged the sin we committed, confessed it before God, and made the sacrifice, we then change our behavior and attitude in a long-term way.Rob" yes change our attitude.AND what is the sacrifice that God desires above all else?Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2021 14:30:13 GMT -5
D"The heavens are not 3D reality – the heavens are of a higher dimension Doesn’t have to be literal or not – because it is of a higher energy level that us
R" Well if you wish to believe that, that is your view. Fine. I will stick to Scripture and a more literal easier to fathom view, with the Scriptures I read. Jesus who came from heaven, came DOWN to earth, and yet He took up the same body we humans have, and yet Scripture says this
Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
So much for your higher energy level, different dimension theory, is just that a theory. I will stick to Scripture.
D"Do you understand this verse – praying not with your body, biology, brain – but spirit R" Pray in the spirit , these verses say, Dave? What does this mean ? You say it does not mean pray with your biological brain, or you mind? OK so how do you talk to the HS (pneumia) ?
I pray to the HS (pneumia) or spirit, using my biological mind and my biological brain.... how you you pray?
You use some nebulous term you use called your spirit, which by the way is also biological, is we are using the term nashamah for spirit, remember both nashamah and ruwach are used for spirit.
D"We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit Do you understand this verse – no – you deny this verse R" SO elohiym is ruwach, the verse says. So Dave sees elohiym gave mankind elohiym as some divine spark and this is the thing we use to pray with, like as if we have a little of god inside of us that is all our own. We pray like GOD is, using the powers of GOD, for GOD has given a little spark of GOD inside of us? Please do detail your view Dave, instead of such brief replies that make no sense?
Can GOD really give away god as a gift to mankind? that mankind calls it his own? Than mankind was not created, mankind did not receive a breath of life, God did not kneel to the ground and breath into the form power from God. Instead God gave man a little of god, and man became god and therefore eternal and immortal? No need to create man, only the body was created and god placed these quantum sparks of god into each man, so that man is really god inside a mortal body. Is this your view Dave? Like I said, detail your view, make some sentences so people can understand you.
Do I accept anything of this? No
God created mankind it says. The HS and nashamah are words to describe the breath of life in man. Our spirit is just and breathing we enjoy, and the character development we employ, that is managed by the HS living inside of us, that allows the flow of divinity to come to us daily and continuously until we die. Its a partnership between GOD and matter. My understanding is GOD cannot give you a part of GOD so that you can OWN your own god as a spirit spark living in you as you. No such thing.
I write clearly consciously, Dave, you write brief brevity. ----------------------
Rp" If Enoch walked right into heaven in his body, it could not have been his old RA body, so the creative development in the compassion centre of the HS must be a literal body development as well as a spiritual development, otherwise Enoch would have been imperfect in heaven. D" Enoch earthy garments were exchange for heavily garments Just as Joshua was given heavenly garments R Either my argument is so strong that you ignore it Dave and write about a symbol, or you cannot make an argument at all.
Sorry, the clothing poetry simile is a symbol of exchanging ones old flesh for new flesh. Let's see is this not what Jesus did for us, and Jesus comes down from heaven in the same body He went into heaven from earth. Enoch walked right into heaven in the same body (it was changed of course) but it was in his own body. Go figure. What a heavenly garments a symbol of Dave?
D"You deny that man is spirit – so you do not understand praying in the spirit – or praising in the spirit R" is that all you do, write your words? I quoted you exact Scripture to argue against your idea? Where is your Scripture? You don't have any....that is why...
D"Enoch never went to heaven – it was just the HS going into heaven? R" Can't you read another person's view and argue logically against it? Obviously not.
Read my sentences carefully Dave. I also speak of nashamah and ruwach, why do I write these two Hebrew words? Did I not show you E-sword with Gen 2:7 on the phrase "breath of life"?
D"You mean to say – no longer 3D like us – but of a higher dimension like Jesus R" No Dave, biology that does not follow necessarily have to follow natural law.
D"Except Jesus full of holes R" Are you disrespectful of our Saviour? Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
D"There is no dietary restriction to be a Christian – no man-made laws or precepts R" Oh so I can drink a dozen cans of Coke, eat my chocolate cakes and get as big as I like and still GOD saves me and talks to me? No fasting and self control is required?
2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
What is temperance here Dave? Not a command from the Lord?
D"Just double talk Robert OH - you quote yourself - double speaker This is blasphemy against the Spirit – Jesus commended His spirit to God – the spirit returns to God You deny scripture
R"Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us:
You need to write sentences Dave, not brief brevity that makes not sense of your view. I do not deny scripture.
If Jesus did not die for our sins Dave, what did Jesus do, not die than for our sins?
D"OK now we are back to more double speak So scripture is wrong when a body dies the soul go to the dust just like all animals? R" Again you have read and studied Scripture, how about writing your view, rather than mocking my view. Jesus body saw no corruption Dave? He died differently from other humans? Have you considered how Jesus body never saw corruption? Only elohiym power could achieve this.
D"Then what is all this crap about man has no soul or spirit he is just the HS R" stop mocking people Dave and learn. When people discuss, we learn, and our learning increases. You have helped me to learn, my older sentences were not quite clear, now my newer sentences are more clearer, hence why I write differently than 2 years ago. I thanked you for this, but you repay me with mocking?
The term spirit has three common meanings, wind as in special wind in the air HS as in the medium of GOD empowered by the HS
and spirit of man, the nashamah, the spirit of man, his character development administrated by God. See gen 2:7.
D"Is man a spirit – or is man just biology driven around by the HS R" Why does this bother you so much?
Is a rock a free spirit? no everything in matter is not free nor independent, everything of matter depends upon GOD.
Is elohiym independent and free? technically the answer is no
elohiym is love, and that means the members the godhead are always collective in a community of love. No man is an island Dave, old saying. Only zero is truly free and independent, but zero is nothing, so does not exist. It is used in maths to show value to other numbers, ie 10 means the 1 has a bigger value than cardinal one.
D"You have had plenty of opportunity to prove to me that these two stories do not contradict R" Dave I do not have all the facts of history so I cannot answer your details. Must you look for doubt and mock so much? Somethings of Scripture are hard to fathom, does not make Scripture wrong. We just do not know all the history of Jesus' birth...
D' You have a double standard Something are a big deal for you - all of Enoch is a lie
R" No Dave, Enoch as the book you quote from is not inspired, I would not say it is a lie, just a deception.
The Matt/Luke matter is not wrestling with Bible torah, but with history.... so I see a difference here.
God says creation was functional, very functional. Enoch the book says people had to escape from the summer heat? Something wrong here? Hence not inspired. simple logic really.
D"But you also deny that you support Catholicism in its entirtitey - Catholic R" you think? Dave you embrace proportional punishment in hell, a sort of purgatory.
As and SDA supporter, we do not have such a theology, so you are more Catholic than me.
D"You need to decide if man is a spirit or just a lump of biology R" Prove to me man is a spirit like God is Dave? Use Scripture too.
D"Teaching you = reminding you of what he already told you in the WOMB R" How does a fetus know what is given to him inside the womb? I don't follow you?
D"Then why do you preach we must support Jesus with a bunch of dos and don’ts You must say the right prayers and do not eat the wrong stuff R" Book of Jesus says "take with you my words, say to Jesus...." (Hos 14:2) That is the definition of amanuah, eating the man, the manna from heaven, His words that empower you.
D"Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: R" What does a broken spirit mean to you Dave?
This is why this verse means to me"Ps 126:5 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. {joy: or, singing}
6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him."
Jesus said unless a seed dies, it cannot allow many seeds. If you read Ancient Hebrew, Jesus is the "home head" the seeds in the head of wheat, that died for us to embrace His body and His Spirit. This creative process is termed the second birth and we become little clones of Jesus, but not personality clones, we each develop our own styles of loving unique to us, that we term our own. Kiss the Seed Ps 2 says, despise not the Son of God.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 2, 2021 16:57:15 GMT -5
D"Do you understand this verse – praying not with your body, biology, brain – but spirit R" Pray in the spirit , these verses say, Dave? What does this mean ? You say it does not mean pray with your biological brain, or you mind? OK so how do you talk to the HS (pneumia) ? I pray to the HS (pneumia) or spirit, using my biological mind and my biological brain.... how you pray? So you are complete unable to accept scripture – because you deny the spirit Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion,
You use some nebulous term you use called your spirit You deny the spirit I just quote the disciples - Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion,
D"We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit Do you understand this verse – NO – you deny this verse
R" SO elohiym is ruwach, the verse says. So Dave sees elohiym gave mankind elohiym as some divine spark and this is the thing we use to pray with, like as if we have a little of god inside of us that is all our own. NO sir – you are the one who preaches we are nothing more than biology empowered by the HS You are the one who denies that man is an free and independent soul all of his own
Can GOD really give away god as a gift to mankind? that mankind calls it his own? You see this is YOUR ARGUMENT NOT MINE!
Man is a free and independent and induvial spirit Do I accept anything of this? No Just keep focusing upon the world
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Rp" If Enoch walked right into heaven in his body, it could not have been his old RA body, so the creative development in the compassion centre of the HS must be a literal body development as well as a spiritual development, otherwise Enoch would have been imperfect in heaven. D" Enoch earthy garments were exchange for heavily garments Just as Joshua was given heavenly garments R Either my argument is so strong that you ignore it Dave and write about a symbol, or you cannot make an argument at all.
Sorry, the clothing poetry simile is a symbol of exchanging ones old flesh for new flesh. DUH – I say it you have an issue – then you turn around and say it New body – changed – NOT 3D ANYMORE – WE ALL CHANGE AND BE LIKE Christ after the resurrection
D"You deny that man is spirit – so you do not understand praying in the spirit – or praising in the spirit R" is that all you do, write your words? I quoted you exact Scripture to argue against your idea? Where is your Scripture? You don't have any....that is why...
Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion,
D"Enoch never went to heaven – it was just the HS going into heaven? R" Can't you read another person's view and argue logically against it? Obviously not. Read my sentences carefully Dave. I also speak of nashamah and ruwach, why do I write these two Hebrew words? Did I not show you E-sword with Gen 2:7 on the phrase "breath of life"? YES you showed me – you claim that Enoch is not Enoch – he is not an independent individual You claim that Enoch is only the HS and the memories od Enoch
D"You mean to say – no longer 3D like us – but of a higher dimension like Jesus R" No Dave, biology that does not follow necessarily have to follow natural law. Correct – no longer 3D like us – but changed to be like Him
D"There is no dietary restriction to be a Christian – no man-made laws or precepts R" Oh so I can drink a dozen cans of Coke, eat my chocolate cakes and get as big as I like and still GOD saves me and talks to me? No fasting and self control is required? Why can’t you have an intelligent conversation What is the difference between a piece of Chocolate Birthday cake and being a big fat glutton You cannot tell the difference evidently
If Jesus did not die for our sins Dave, what did Jesus do, not die than for our sins? The Son of Man died upon the cross and that biological body went into the tomb The Son of God commended His Spirit to God – returned to HADESS (the invisible realms) and preached to the lost there You satan did not Kill God – Jesus Christ = God incarnate You deny this as well – because all you see is the biology – you deny the spiritual reality
My gosh Robert - this is the heart of Christianity The resurrection proves - thst you can kill the body - not the soul Was the spirit of Christ dead - not according to Peter Was the spirit of Jesus extinguished - NO - he returned in a changed body It is called the resurrection - PROOF OF SPIRT and the SPIRITUAL REALM / Heavens If this is a lie - all of Christianity is a lie I believe in Christ resurrection - you deny it - you say satan killed the divinity of Jesus Christ This is the most ANTI-CHRISTIAN doctrine I have ever heard - and it comes from a church that was considered a cult and still is This comes from your Ellen White - the prophet that says satan killed the divinity of Christ
D"Then what is all this crap about man has no soul or spirit he is just the HS R" stop mocking people Dave and learn. Then teach me – how can man be an individual if man has no soul – no spirit – man is only the HS
The term spirit has three common meanings, wind as in special wind in the air HS as in the medium of GOD empowered by the HS and spirit of man, the nashamah, the spirit of man, his character development administrated by God. See gen 2:7. Correct the spirit of man – you say it does not exist – it is only the HS within us
D"Is man a spirit – or is man just biology driven around by the HS R" Why does this bother you so much? Because the entirety of Christianity is ablout salvation of the soul You deny man has one You deny that man is an free and independent individual - alone - an island You just keep saying man has no spirit/soul - man is just the HS
D"You have had plenty of opportunity to prove to me that these two stories do not contradict R" Dave I do not have all the facts of history so I cannot answer your details. Then how can you say each and every word written by Enoch is NOT to be considered You must have been programmed / taught to say this
D' You have a double standard Something are a big deal for you – You have a double standard – you argue against scripture to validate your doctrine
The Matt/Luke matter is not wrestling with Bible torah, but with history.... so I see a difference here. A false hood is a lie – no matter how you frame it
D"But you also deny that you support Catholicism in its entirtitey - Catholic R" you think? Dave you embrace proportional punishment in hell, a sort of purgatory. I have given you my scripture 2 years ago you agreed with me – today you do not – just to be oppsite
D"You need to decide if man is a spirit or just a lump of biology R" Prove to me man is a spirit like God is Dave? Use Scripture too. Scripture says so – you just deny it – because you have doctrine to believe in – therefore you do not understand scripture
D"Teaching you = reminding you of what he already told you in the WOMB R" How does a fetus know what is given to him inside the womb? I don't follow you? Jer 1:5 – why do you work so hard to deny scripture
D"Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: R" What does a broken spirit mean to you Dave? It has nothing to do with biology, the brain, or your mind It is all about the spirit – but you deny it
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Post by Dave on Sept 3, 2021 7:33:37 GMT -5
The entire point of Christianity is the salvation of the soul of man – it is a spiritual eventAbraham, Jacob, Nathan, Isaiah, Elisha, Ezekiel, Moses, Jerimiah, Solomon, more, and more, and all the authors of the agl – both in and out of the Roman Canon all spoke of a spiritual reality The Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) Heavens1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. His body put to mortal death – His Spirit quickened – released – set free – to go and preach in hades (the unseen heavens)
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Do not be surprised that I said to you, ‘You all must be born from above.’ Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” Joh 3:9 How can these things happen?” Nicodemus said. Joh 3:10 Yeshua answered him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these things? D"We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit R Do I accept anything of this? No 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.Robert preaches it is a sin to believe that man is a free and independent individual that is able to choose God on his own.If man is not the driver of his own life – then it is impossible for man to return to the father as a Prodigal Son because that requires a Free Will Choice to love God
If man is simply biology driven around by the HS - who makes the Free Will choice to be the Prodigal Son? A Free and independent induvial making his own choices – or the HS driving him around
If man is simply an animal driven around by the HS – when man sins was it the HS that chose to sin? Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. If the soul of man is simply the HS driving us around – then Robert teaches that satan can kill the HS 99% of Christian know the HS as the Spirit of God – so Robert preaches that his satan can kill GodD" You claim Jesus Christ was not God in craniate – he was just a manR" I never said that. Jesus was elohiym, fully divine, and added humanity to His divinity. I will quote you – you honest manYou absolutely deny that spirit can NOT exist as an independent individual Then you talk of the soul and body being in two locations Just double talk RobertOH - you quote yourself - double speakerThis is blasphemy against the Spirit – Jesus commended His spirit to God – the spirit returns to God You deny scripture Luk 23:46 And Yeshua, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I entrust My spirit.’” When He had said this, He breathed His last. Robert’s satan did not kill Christ – the Spirit of Christ – the spirit of Christ returned to GodThe Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) HeavensLIFE LIVES1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. His body put to mortal death – His Spirit quickened – released – set free – to go and preach in hades (the unseen heavens)Acts 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”LIFE LIVESD"We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit D"You deny that man is spirit – so you do not understand praying in the spirit – or praising in the spirit R" is that all you do, write your words? I quoted you exact Scripture to argue against your idea? Where is your Scripture? You don't have any....that is why... R Do I accept anything of this? No2Co 12:2 I know a man in Messiah (whether in the body I don’t know, or whether out of the body I don’t know—God knows)—fourteen years ago, he was caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows) SPIRITUALITY vrs man-made practice of religion1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.SPIRITUALITY vrs BELIEF2Ki 6:15 Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was surrounding the city. So his attendant said to him, “Alas, my master! What are we going to do?” 2Ki 6:16 “Fear not,” he replied, “for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 2Ki 6:17 Then Elisha prayed and said, “Adonai, please open his eyes that he may see.” Then Adonai opened the eyes of the young man and he saw, and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 2Ki 6:18 When they came down to him, Elisha prayed to Adonai and said, “Please strike this people with blinding light.” So He struck them with blinding light according to the word of Elisha. 2Ki 6:19 Then Elisha said to them, “This is not the road, nor is this the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man whom you seek.” So he led them to Samaria. 2Ki 6:20 Upon their arrival in Samaria, Elisha said, “Adonai, open the eyes of these men, that they may see.” So Adonai opened their eyes, and they could see—behold, they were in the middle of Samaria. D"We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit R Do I accept anything of this? No YOU and I do not believe in the same ChristianityI choose to be a Messianic Jew in the Spirit of the First century Christians – the First ChristiansYOU are born of Roman Catholic theology morphed into a Great Controversy between two gods I believe in One True Creator who is absolute The God of the ahl made personal to all through the Resurrection of ChristYou believe that your god and your satan are locked in eternal conflict Called the Great Controversy This is a pagan religion called Zoroasterism Two opposing forces in opposition to one another | |
Dave writes: " See – you have two Kings and two godsYes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with that? – It is a pagan belief that has nothing to do with Judaism or Messianic ChristianityJob 32:8 “But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the innermost parts of his being. Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth? Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. Proverbs 18:14 The spirit of a man can endure his sickness, But as for a broken spirit who can bear it? Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. D"We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit R Do I accept anything of this? No[/b][/font][/quote] Proof that the HS is not making your choices for youYou as a Free and Independent Individual alone make the choice The TRUTH – you are you – whether you are in the body or out of the bodyYou will stand judgment for the choice you make You will stand alone – as you – in judgment You are more than just and animal You are an animal that has a soul – a spirit within Removed the spirit from the body and the body dies The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is Proof that the spirit does not die – it continues on into the afterlife The Resurrection is proof that you do not die – you continue on into the afterlifeLIFE LIVESWhat happens in the afterlifeYou say that of all the men that God has ever created – only a select few Christians are saved in the end And you try to say your God is Love and Mercy and Full of Grace I say my God is Love and Mercy – and understanding and fair and Full of Grace – because He continues to be patient and wait for us – even tho we sin Every man ever created is judged fairly by deeds, works, and fruit Those who choose God are redeemed by a Divine Pardon – Salvation through Christ Elisha and his servantBoth saved – both believe – both serving in the temple His servant was a believer – a practicing Jew - a believer Elisha was a spiritual prophet of YWHY – who he knew as his savior – (gnosis)Jesus comes and says – He and God are One – if you seen Jesus Christ then you have seen God John 1 Word =word=word=God=HS=Christ-the creator - Trinity Elisha was a Spiritual Christian – long before Jesus was born R Do I accept anything of this? No Then you are comfortable being Elisha’s servant - practice awayThe object of Christianity is to WALK in the SPIRIT To live our live in a 24/7 communion with the Holy Spirit To be God's hands and feet here in this world To witness God's Glory to this world To have the Holy Spirt flowing through you 24/7 Is this possible and a man still living in his animal body? Paul had a “LIGHT BULB MOMENT” (your words) when he was in the body or our – he could not tell Paul struggled and was ashamed of his own body (yester ra) Paul struggled and begged for salvation from his body (yester ra) "Misealbe man that I am" - Paul relized just how pathetic this mortal life is with its (yester ra) 2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (absent from the body – in spirit to be present with the Lord – spirit to spirit)Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await—the Lord Jesus Christ— Php 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things. (our true home is not this 3D world you love so much – our true home in in heaven – NOT in 3D form but changed to be like Him – clothing exchanged – earthly garment for heavenly garments)2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (as long as you live here in this world – worried about this world – feel threated by this world – controlled by this world – the archon have you successfully preoccupied with the world so you have not the time to be devote to the Holy Spirit)2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. Believer or Born Again we must carry on in faith – do our best You say to do your best to be the best SDA I say do you best to serve the Lord and preaching a two god system of Zorasterism is not it - or preaching doubt about the spirit[/font] Because we will all be judge by our works – our witness + our deeds ad our fruit2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Proportional Punishment – good or bad – each man according to his own choicesOr a Divine Pardon - Savlvation through Christ
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 17:00:59 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" We are to worship and trust Him in Spirit Do you understand this verse – NO – you deny this verse
NO sir – you are the one who preaches we are nothing more than biology empowered by the HS You are the one who denies that man is an free and independent soul all of his own You see this is YOUR ARGUMENT NOT MINE!R" OK so how about you telling me what this spirit thing is, and how you get this new second birth of the spirit Jesus was telling Nicodemus didn't understand, neither apparently I don't either, But you do. So explain. D" DUH – I say it you have an issue – then you turn around and say it New body – changed – NOT 3D ANYMORE – WE ALL CHANGE AND BE LIKE Christ after the resurrectionR" You did not explain your view Dave? This post further down asks you to define chadesh...? is the body brand new or renewed? yes it is changed. D" What is the difference between a piece of Chocolate Birthday cake and being a big fat glutton You cannot tell the difference evidentlyR" Comic book "jungle stories for kids" of mine long ago Dave, little sins become big sins and big sins kill the soul. D" The Son of Man died upon the cross and that biological body went into the tomb The Son of God commended His Spirit to God – returned to HADESS (the invisible realms) and preached to the lost there You satan did not Kill God – Jesus Christ = God incarnate You deny this as well – because all you see is the biology – you deny the spiritual reality My gosh Robert - this is the heart of Christianity The resurrection proves - thst you can kill the body - not the soul Was the spirit of Christ dead - not according to Peter Was the spirit of Jesus extinguished - NO - he returned in a changed body It is called the resurrection - PROOF OF SPIRT and the SPIRITUAL REALM / Heavens If this is a lie - all of Christianity is a lie I believe in Christ resurrection - you deny it - you say satan killed the divinity of Jesus Christ This is the most ANTI-CHRISTIAN doctrine I have ever heard - and it comes from a church that was considered a cult and still is This comes from your Ellen White - the prophet that says satan killed the divinity of ChristR" This is the reason you mock Dave, because you assume things I write, when I did not write them. How sad for you , quoting things I never said. I have asked you to detail your view, but your refuse. Your write brief brevity. In my view the nepesh is part of the body. They cannot be separated. The independent development of the spirit is what we SDA call the development of character, a quality that comes from GOD, a part of His LOVE. In Hebrew this term is called nashamah, and is associated with ruwach (the HS) in the phrase "breath of life". Therefore man does have an independent means to develop and respond to the love of GOD, using his free will. This term is often translated "my spirit". Here is how these two terms relate to each other Ro 8:16 The (ruwach) Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit (nashamah) , that we are the children of God: However in the NT Greek, the same word pneumia is used. However in the OT both these terms are used for spirit. See Gen 7 D" you say satan killed the divinity of Jesus ChristR" No divinity can never be killed because divinity is not biological. How you can even suggest this idea is beyond me. Jesus is 100% divinity, but Jesus emptied himself and added humanity unto his divinity. What does this mean? In means the divinity part of Jesus was never used while Jesus was living only by the humanity of man, and thus the HS came over Jesus to empower life in Jesus, via faith in His Father. The is the same way humans have life on earth. We do not have divinity we can call our own. However Jesus does, but did not use this right. Death is defined in Scripture as the dissolution of matter, ie the separation of the divine powers that cause biology to be living. Since you do not understand love is a collective process or a family of divinity, you will not understand me. So when the HS left Jesus and the Father left Jesus, Jesus biology was left alone, and the divinity of Jesus was also left alone. Truly the Ps 22:1 says, my el (father) my el (mother) why are you leaving yashuah? But the biology of Yashuah did not decay? Why not? Because His own divinity kept the biology alive, Jesus says I am the resurrection and the life, He alone can do this for sinners, not the Father or the HS, But Jesus alone can do this for sinners, and must do this for sinners, because the life for life sacrifice requires this. So the biology died in the sense of separation of divinity powers (Father and HS) but in a technical sense the biology did not biologically die (chemistry of decay) because his own divinity keep the biological living. No SDA people I know of speak of this, so I am the only stupid one to fathom this depth of reasoning. Such things we will never truly know on this side of earth, so this is just my own two pennies, nothing more. D" Correct the spirit of man – you say it does not exist – it is only the HS within usR" I have since learned (you taught me this) that the spirit of man, is the process of man receiving love from GOD, that enables us to develop our own version of character, so yes man does have a spirit that is truly ours to own. These are memories as you term this, recorded by the HS, yes, but they are developed by man's free will, so in this sense this is what makes us our own. The HS is a medium and does not actively function within us, the conduit through which the Father and the Son speak. So man is able to develop and respond to God's love, this is what I term our nashamah or our spirit, and this spirit is independently able to develop love. But nothing is technically independent, all things depend upon God for it's exist. Only God has immortality. Only God has power. All things comes from God, including matter and time. D" You just keep saying man has no spirit/soul - man is just the HSR" Again you misquote me. nephesh = matter + GOD (comes to man via the HS) The soul comes from biology (matter) and power (comes from GOD via the HS) The soul requires a body to exist, and the presence of GOD's power to be living. The soul cannot live after leaving the body. Not scriptural. D" man is just the HSR" This equation is not an equation. Man = HS Come on Dave, that makes man=GOD. NO. Man = matter + GOD POWER (administrated to matter via the HS) Inside the matter there is mind that causes man to develop his own spirit. Hope this makes sense to you. Now your view as I see it. Man = spirit + matter Soul = spirit Thus you are saying man=god or man=a god My understanding man can die in the lake of fire, therefore the spirit cannot be immortal, but mortal hence your term cannot be You say the spirit can exist outside of the body. No Scripture for this. Only Scripture quoting the myth for others who follow this myth. Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Jesus quote a common myth to get a truth from the story. D" Then how can you say each and every word written by Enoch is NOT to be considered You must have been programmed / taught to say thisR" Prove Enoch wrote, Enoch had perfect memory why the need to write? Nobody wrote. People before the flood are perfect memory of things. Only later after the flood did man need to write things down. D" A false hood is a lie – no matter how you frame itR" How is a lack of details a falsehood? Matt and Luke are facts. Cannot deny them. But history is not facts, but subject to interpretation. D" 2 years ago you agreed with me – today you do not – just to be oppsite R" Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. One can overlook things Dave, not all errors matter, Friendship is more important. D" Scripture says so – you just deny it – because you have doctrine to believe in – therefore you do not understand scriptureR" I asked you to prove this to me? You deny my request? D" The Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) HeavensR" The soul dies when the body dies Dave. Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, Ps 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: man cannot kill the living relationship the soul had with GOD before the soul and body dies. THis is what Scripture is referring to. D" If man is simply biology driven around by the HS - who makes the Free Will choice to be the Prodigal Son? A Free and independent induvial making his own choices – or the HS driving him aroundR" Why do you push this misquote? Can't you read my sentences? Pr 16:9 ¶ A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. The spirit of man plans his course in life, but GOD directs the steps for man to get there. Now this sentence negates everything you quote of me. Stop quoting things I did not say Dave. D" If man is simply an animal driven around by the HS – when man sins was it the HS that chose to sin?R" How stupid you are to misquote me , when I never said such things Dave. Man is free to wander from the path, free to choose his course. If man choose to do evil and ra, things that are not allowed to exist, God even creates them so they exist so you have the ability to walk away from God and do your evil. Man cannot do anything without God. All power comes from God, but God does not do the evil, you do, you chose to do evil. D" Then how can you say each and every word written by Enoch is NOT to be considered You must have been programmed / taught to say thisR" The Bible teaches us this Dave Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. D" A false hood is a lie – no matter how you frame itR" Oh so if you read Scripture you cannot explain, it is a false hood? Re 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. How can gold be like a crystal unto clear glass? I thought the Bible is silly to speak of weird things, until mankind is now only barely able to manufacture metals that are no longer amorphous but actually crystalline in structure. Something very difficult to achieve. And what colour is gold as a crystal? green But according to you if I don't understand something, it is a falsehood. D" Jer 1:5 – why do you work so hard to deny scriptureR" No comment Dave, how you write brief brevity all the time? Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Who knows you in the womb? the fetus or the GOD who watches the fetus being developed? If you read the verse carefully Dave, the subject of the sentence is GOD and the verb is yada, while the object of the verb yada is you. So GOD knows you before you are conceived. This verse cannot be used to say man is fully known of himself before he is born as you claim. God knows everything Dave. D" It has nothing to do with biology, the brain, or your mind It is all about the spirit – but you deny itR" Really? Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Pr 17:22 ¶ A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones. {like: or, to} (KJV) I must commend you for NOT using the line by line principle when reading Scripture, you pick your verses to suit your views, you do not look up all the verses on a theme. theme "broken spirit" verses on this theme "2" Where does a merry heart come from? spirit or body? body and mind where does bones come from ? spirit or body? body therefore the spirit is a part of the body. It is a reference to nashamah, where the character development like God occurs. Now add verses that use both words, but not as a exact phrase Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. A broken heart is from the body, paralleled to a contrite spirit Pr 15:13 ¶ A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken. SO sorrow is what causes the spirit to be broken, again the feelings from the body and mind Pr 25:28 ¶ He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls. Again a parallel poetry, a broken spirit it like a city with broken walls. Walls are of matter, hence spirit is some quality in a man that is associated with matter. Notice I write my commentaries for each verse.D" Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) HeavensD" Again a theme, the soul and death, but you pick verses here and there rather than look up all the verses. Jg 16:16 And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto death; Obviously the soul can experience death, so what is Matthew 10 :28 talking about? Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life. Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, Ps 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: Isa 53:12 because he (jesus) hath poured out his soul unto death: Dave there are numerous verses, including one about Jesus, that our nephesh dies when the body dies. So what is Matthew 10 :28 talking about? Mt 10:26 Fear them not therefore: Mt 10:28 And fear not them Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. Mt 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. SO what is Matthew 28 about, do not fear those evil men who come to kill you, they have no power over you or your soul, for you are valued by GOD and man cannot take away you because God knows you and values you. D" If man is not the driver of his own life – then it is impossible for man to return to the father as a Prodigal Son because that requires a Free Will Choice to love GodR" What does free will mean to you Dave? Who caused the prodigal to turn around? did only the man? or what the man listening to God speaking to him? D" (1)You absolutely deny that spirit can NOT exist as an independent individual (2) Then you talk of the soul and body being in two locations (3) Just double talk Robert OH - you quote yourself - double speaker
R" Oh boy. (1)Dave the spirit in a man is truly free and independent to develop his own character of spirit Stop misquoting me. (2) Oh boy. Dave the spirit in a man is ALWAYS associated with the SOUL. Both soul and spirit and body are always together. I have never said what you claim. Stop misquoting me. (3) Dave can't you read my sentences? My understanding is Dave teaches the spirit can exist without the body, why are you misquoting me? My understanding of Dave, you teach the spirit existed for every man way back in Gen 1, so each spirit must enter it's body upon conception with it body later on when the fetus develops? Please explain, as I am bound to get you wrong, you always write brief brevity. Than you say upon the body dying the spirit enter proportional punishment in hell for a while before the spirit is perfected. But some spirit refuse to be perfected so the spirit enters the lake of fire and is extinguished. Scripture does not teach this. The spirit is a part within man and the soul at all times. When the body dies the spirit and the soul within the man also comes to an end. Notice I did not say die, because this term refers to the chemistry of dying, the term soul and spirit is different to biology. These terms are something of the relationship the biology has with GOD, and thus divinity is partnered to matter and thus man become a living soul. Notice Dave, I am happy to attempt to write clearly and concisely my views, my pennies worth is for all to read. I do not write brief brevity. You make claims that mans is free to choose. Yes but our choose is never truly independent, nothing is ever truely independent. We are all reliant upon GOD for our choosing of Him or not. D" This is blasphemy against the Spirit – Jesus commended His spirit to God – the spirit returns to God You deny scriptureR" Really Dave what is this verse than? Isa 53:12 because he (jesus) hath poured out his soul unto death: So this verse is a falsehood hey? D" Robert’s satan did not kill Christ – the Spirit of Christ – the spirit of Christ returned to GodR" You are changing the hebrew terms Dave, ruwach of Christ. I am speaking of nephesh and muwth. Stick to the Scripture words Dave. Stop changing themes. D" The Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) Heavens
LIFE LIVESR" How your Jewish RABBI misquotes the hebrew words. Nobody, including mankind has the ruwach to control at the point of death. Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: This verse is clear. But you deny Scripture. D" His body put to mortal death – His Spirit quickened – released – set free – to go and preach in hades (the unseen heavens)R" explain yourself Dave, stop writing brief brevity. D" They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” LIFE LIVESR" explain yourself Dave, stop writing brief brevity. D" YOU and I do not believe in the same ChristianityR" Seems that way D" This is a pagan religion called Zoroasterism Two opposing forces in opposition to one anotherR" give theology a pagan label and that causes people to run from it? I wonder if Gnosticism is pagan? Hmm? Question: Is sinning opposing GOD? D" What's wrong with that? – It is a pagan belief that has nothing to do with Judaism or Messianic ChristianityR" I see. Question" Where does sinning as a free will choice come from? Your answer is God. My answer is the first creature who free will choice to choose sinning, a cherub in heaven, kicked out of heaven. But you ignore those scriptures. You quote lots of Scripture but not a single commentary. Some witness you are. Are you afraid to write words of your own Dave? I have an entire website of over 1500 pages written to explain my views of Scripture, but you have written nothing. Are you afraid to explain these verses you posted? They are have the word "ruwach" in them. Jews associated the term "ruwach" as the "nephesh", wrong. Jews associate the term "rwuach" as man's own independent spirit? wrong. Of course the "ruwach" lives, and can never die. Duh. The "ruwach" is associated in partnership to man when man is alive, because the "ruwach" is alive. Without the "ruwach" man cannot do anything pleasing to God, for self is inherently evil and missing. How about explaining what these verses mean to you Dave, rather than just quoting them? DO you want to see what my studies do on this word? spiritualsprings.org/ss-858.htmDISCUSSION: See over 700 verses in context, with discussions for some verses throughout. (1) Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form , and void ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep . And the Spirit (ruwach) of God moved upon the face of the waters . And the Holy Spirit "wind" (ruwach) of Elohiym (The FAMILY Powers of GOD) moved upon the face of the "hiding powers" flow. The Holy Spirit is fluttering in and out, wind moving in and out, as the other members of GOD stand near the "flowing active flow" (quantum). The Hebrew word "mayim" "The flowing active flow" can also mean other things that flow, in this case from Creation, the active flow of "hiding powers". I have commentary on every verse, all 700 verses, and it is published since 2012. (4) Ge 6:17 And, behold , I , even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth , to destroy all flesh , wherein is the breath (ruwach) of life , from under heaven ; and every thing that is in the earth shall die . .. wherein is the Holy Spirit "wind" of life , the "ruwach of chay", is the Holy Spirit administrating the Father's life force. (8) Ge 26:35 Which were a grief of mind (ruwach) unto Isaac and to Rebekah . Which were a grief of Holy Spirit "wind empowering character" unto Isaac... The characters of Isaac and Rebekah was saddened by Esau marrying a Hittite woman. How else can this word mean ? "ruwach" (10) Ge 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants , Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit (ruwach) of God is? Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Holy Spirit "wind of character is" of God .. Where does this term "wind of character" come from? Ge 7:22 All in whose nostrils <'aph> was the breath <n@shamah> <ruwach> of life <chay> Here. There are two terms used for "breath of life". D" The TRUTH – you are you – whether you are in the body or out of the bodyR" You do not prove this idea, just quote it. D" The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is Proof that the spirit does not die – it continues on into the afterlifeR" so what does this mean? in the after life, the spirit can talk outside of its body? So when this spirit thing came back to the disciples, how come it came in its old body before the resurrection? D" What happens in the afterlife You say that of all the men that God has ever created – only a select few Christians are saved in the end And you try to say your God is Love and Mercy and Full of GraceR"And your view? You say Dave, God is love and allows the wicked man a second chance to get right before the lord in some proportional punishment? So even the wicked can be saved, outside of its body? Explain your view to me? Dave loves to misquote me "R Do I accept anything of this? NoR" what are you doing when you do this Dave? Have I ever done this to you? You are mocking and condemning and making fun, taking me out of context. I treat your words fairly only in the moments you write, past comments are gone forever and mean nothing to me. People learn, so a baby walk and talks and the past is not the current thoughts of the child learning. But you misquote me and take past words to condemn me. How cruel are you. and the stupid computer remembers all our words.... forever.... this is an evil... Love covers a multitude of sinnings, forget the past words, write the current feelings of truth. Start writing when you believe because the whole world is reading your messages, not just me and you. D" The object of Christianity is to WALK in the SPIRIT To live our live in a 24/7 communion with the Holy Spirit To be God's hands and feet here in this world To witness God's Glory to this world To have the Holy Spirt flowing through you 24/7 Is this possible and a man still living in his animal body?R" Why do you write a question, but not answer it? Can a man be like Enoch and walk in the spirit in his body? When Jesus said ye must be born again, does this produce a second man upon the earth, or a second body for the first man to walk in? Answer this question Dave. You are confused. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The Hebrew word chadesh here, does this mean a brand new body or a brand new spirit, or a brand new man, is the second birth, or is chedesh a renewed birth, a renewed man, a renewed spirit? A new moon, chadesh moon, is the moon a brand new moon every month, or a renewed moon every month? This is a teaching from Jeff Benner, byt the way. I rarely ever speak to you using Ellen White or SDA views. My teacher for Jews is Jeff Benner. Jonathan Sarfetti is also a Jew, as is professor Gerald Schroeder. D" our true home is not this 3D world you love so much – our true home in in heavenR" The city in heaven comes DOWN to this earth Dave, our final home is a renewed earth. Not a brand new earth either, all the RA is consumed in magma, and the earth is renewed. D" Believer or Born Again we must carry on in faith – do our bestR" you need to explore amanuah more, it is never doing our best. Wrong idea. D" I say do you best to serve the LordR" you need to explore amanuah more, it is never doing our best. Wrong idea. D" Because we will all be judge by our worksR" Scripture says our works are as flithy rags, so our judgement fails. We are judged by the works of GOD that you freely allowed to flow through you. D" Proportional Punishment – good or bad – each man according to his own choicesR" In my kind way to deal with one matter at a kind this post you make here is wrong. No such thing. SO detail how Scripture supports your view here. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 5, 2021 0:26:44 GMT -5
R" OK so how about you telling me what this spirit thing is, and how you get this new second birth of the spirit Jesus was telling Nicodemus didn't understand, neither apparently I don't either, But you do. So explain.This is so easy – a person needs to let go and realize that this mortal world is fleeting and embrace the spirit – believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and he will come to you as the Holy Spirit if you ask. - The agl is full of it - Christ will send the Comforter - to indwell - to teach you (actuall it says remind you) spirit to spiritBut you absolutley deny anything spiritual is possible - man has no spirit you sayAsk and you shall receiveIf you get on your knees and say – I dot believe any of it – but just in case I ask as a test – I test you God It will never be an effective prayerD"DUH – I say it you have an issue – then you turn around and say it New body – changed – NOT 3D ANYMORE – WE ALL CHANGE AND BE LIKE Christ after the resurrection R" You did not explain your view Dave?How many times have I posted 1Co 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; No Flesh and blood in heaven – you argued against me and scripture
How many times have I postedEcc 3:19 For an event is to the sons of man, and an event is to the beasts, even one event is to them; as the death of this, so is the death of that; and one spirit is to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole is vanity. Ecc 3:20 The whole are going unto one place, the whole have been from the dust, and the whole are turning back unto the dust. Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth? No Flesh and Blood in heave 3D mortal flesh return to the dust – you argue against me and scripture
How many times have I posted1Jn 3:2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; No 3D mortal flesh in heaven – we will be changed into whatever form Christ is Do we know what that form is – NO – it has not yet been revealed D"DUH – I say it you have an issue – then you turn around and say it New body – changed – NOT 3D ANYMORE – WE ALL CHANGE AND BE LIKE Christ after the resurrection R" You did not explain your view Dave?I have posted these same verse to you many time – each time you deny scriptureD"What is the difference between a piece of Chocolate Birthday cake and being a big fat glutton You cannot tell the difference evidently R" Comic book "jungle stories for kids" of mine long ago Dave, little sins become big sins and big sins kill the soul.No such thing as a little sin – sin = sin One bite and you are a sinnerD"The Son of Man died upon the cross and that biological body went into the tomb The Son of God commended His Spirit to God – returned to HADESS (the invisible realms) and preached to the lost there Your satan did not Kill God – Jesus Christ = God incarnate You deny this as well – because all you see is the biology – you deny the spiritual reality My gosh Robert - this is the heart of Christianity The resurrection proves - thst you can kill the body - not the soul Was the spirit of Christ dead - not according to Peter Was the spirit of Jesus extinguished - NO - he returned in a changed body It is called the resurrection - PROOF OF SPIRT and the SPIRITUAL REALM / Heavens If this is a lie - all of Christianity is a lie I believe in Christ resurrection - you deny it - you say satan killed the divinity of Jesus Christ This is the most ANTI-CHRISTIAN doctrine I have ever heard - and it comes from a church that was considered a cult and still is This comes from your Ellen White - the prophet that says satan killed the divinity of Christ R" This is the reason you mock Dave, because you assume things I write, when I did not write them. How sad for you , quoting things I never said. I have asked you to detail your view, but your refuse. Your write brief brevity.Your satan did not Kill God – Jesus Christ = God incarnate You deny this as well – because all you see is the biology – you deny the spiritual reality Do you deny that Jesus Christ was God in craniate – yes or no?
Do you deny that you say your satan killed the soul/spirit of Christ on the cross?D"you say satan killed the divinity of Jesus Christ R" No divinity can never be killed because divinity is not biological. How you can even suggest this idea is beyond me.So you deny that you claim the spirit of Christ died upon the cross Or you deny that Jesus Christ was divinity – which is it?
D"The Son of Man died upon the cross and that biological body went into the tomb The Son of God commended His Spirit to God – returned to HADESS (the invisible realms) and preachedIn my view the nepesh is part of the body. They cannot be separated. The independent development of the spirit is what we SDA call the development of character, a quality that comes from GOD, a part of His LOVE.So you deny scripture1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The body of Jesus was in the Tomb for 3 Days and Nights (Thurs – Sunday) not Friday to Sunday Or the Body of Jesus was in hades the (unseen heavens)Which scripture do you wish to deny?I say the body of Jesus was in the Tomb for 3 Days and Nights as scripture prophesied In the meantime the spirit of Christ was witnessing to those who lived before the flood Then on the third day – the changed body (Resurrected body) of Jesus rose from the TombWhich scripture do you wish to deny?The soul requires a body to exist, and the presence of GOD's power to be living. The soul cannot live after leaving the body. Not scriptural.Which scripture do you wish to deny?Ro 8:16 The (ruwach) Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit (nashamah) , that we are the children of God: However in the NT Greek, the same word pneumia is used. However in the OT both these terms are used for spirit. See Gen 7 YES CORRECT the Holy Spirit will witness to your “SPIRIT/SOUL” directly – if you allow itD"Correct the spirit of man – you say it does not exist – it is only the HS within usR" I have since learned (you taught me this) that the spirit of man, is the process of man receiving love from GOD, that enables us to develop our own version of character, so yes man does have a spirit that is truly ours to own. These are memories as you term this, recorded by the HS, yes, but they are developed by man's free will, so in this sense this is what makes us our own. So you agree – you are just you – a free and independent unique individualBut nothing is technically independent, all things depend upon God for it's exist. Only God has immortality. Only God has power. All things comes from God, including matter and time. So you disagree – you are not just you – you are gods – it is god inside you that allows you to think and make choicesD"You just keep saying man has no spirit/soul - man is just the HS R" Again you misquote me. OK – you just keep saying man is not a Free and Independent Unique Individual He is just the empowerment of the HSCome on Dave, that makes man=GOD. NO.Correct it is the teaching of Dianetics by L. Ron HubbardNow your view as I see it.Man = spirit + matter Soul = spirit Thus you are saying man=god or man=a god Nope God is a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all angels are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all archon are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Also man is a a Free and Independent Unique IndividualMy understanding man can die in the lake of fire, therefore the spirit cannot be immortal, but mortal hence your term cannot beHere ya go – word game again and again and againYou do not use the word mortal correctly – you know you don’t – but in the fashion of Don Patton you present it as a factoid – buy a dictionary – and have a honest discussion Are you capable of that – seriously after all this time – you just post BULL SHIT over and over You say the spirit can exist outside of the body. No Scripture for this. Only Scripture quoting the myth for others who follow this myth. So you deny 1 Peter 3:19 I need a list of all the scripture you deny – do you even realize how much it is?D"Then how can you say each and every word written by Enoch is NOT to be considered You must have been programmed / taught to say this R" Prove Enoch wrote, Prove Moses wrote Genesis D"A false hood is a lie – no matter how you frame it R" How is a lack of details a falsehood? Matt and Luke are facts. Cannot deny them. But history is not facts, but subject to interpretation. One says King Herod the Great and one says his son King Herod Archelaus History is not the author of the Gospel of LukeD"The Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) HeavensR" The soul dies when the body dies Dave. So you deny scripture Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, - You say the soul diesPs 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: , - You say the soul dies
D"If man is simply biology driven around by the HS - who makes the Free Will choice to be the Prodigal Son? A Free and independent induvial making his own choices – or the HS driving him around R" Why do you push this misquote? Can't you read my sentences? Then answer my question – is man a Free and independent Ubiquic Individual spirit Or is man an animal with no spirit that the HS empowersThe spirit of man plans his course in life, but GOD directs the steps for man to get there. Now this sentence negates everything you quote of me. Stop quoting things I did not say Dave. So – you admit – God ? the HS direct your steps into sin or salvation Then why give man a Free Will?You are just mixing metaphors to fit your doctrine1- Man is a Free and Independent Uniqui Individual spirit Being / entity / essence / ghost 2- Genisis 2:7 man became a Human Being = (Man as Spirit Being/Soul - with its yester tov) + animal with its brain/mind/thoughts and programmed instinct for self (yester ra) 3- Does the HS empower the spirit - Yes the HS = the Spirit that radiates out from God - The Spirit of God - God at distance - it is the 2nd dimensional omnipresent ether/matrix/medium of the all - at its very base etherial level / non-corporeal 4- Does the HS empower the animal Yes the HS = the Spirit that radiates out from God - The Spirit of God - God at distance - it is the 2nd dimensional omnipresent ether/matrix/medium of the all - at its very base QUANTUM level / corporeal 5- Does the HS empower the mountains or the rocks and the bugs under those rocks Yes the HS = the Spirit that radiates out from God - The Spirit of God - God at distance - it is the 2nd dimensional omnipresent ether/matrix/medium of the all - at its very base QUANTUM level / corporeal 6- each and every rock is a uniquic chunk of matter - a bunch of those uniquic chunks make a mountain 7- each and every animal is a uniquic individual all working against one another in the name of SELF (yester ra) - Therefore each and every archon is a uniquic individual consumed with world and self (yester ra) 8- each and every angel is a uniquic individual - all working together to serve and praise with their (yester tov) - yester tov because they are in the presence of God 9- man is the uniquic creature with Free Will Because man is Spirit with (yester tov) because it came from the presence of the Lord TRAPPED WITHIN - Souljourning within - an animal of flesh with its instinctive programming for SELF (yester ra) This is what give man Free Will - thanks to Eve we are 100% fully aware of both (yester tov) and (yester ra) - and what was their first reaction = SHAME for bing naked It was the Tree of KNOWLEDGE (gnosis) BETWEEN TOV AND RA D"If man is simply an animal driven around by the HS – when man sins was it the HS that chose to sin? R" How stupid you are to misquote me , when I never said such things Dave. It is the only option with your doctrine – you are not you and you are just empowerd by the HS machining your choice for youD"Then how can you say each and every word written by Enoch is NOT to be considered You must have been programmed / taught to say this R" The Bible teaches us this Dave Show me your verse that says only the Roman Received text is allowed Or show me verse that says Enoch is error - Oh wait Jude - the bother of Jesus preaches the Prophesy of Enoch - you promise to disuss it with me - but that was also months agoD"Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) Heavens R" Again a theme, the soul and death, but you pick verses here and there rather than look up all the verses.Jg 16:16 And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto death; Obviously the soul can experience death, so what is Matthew 10 :28 talking about?ABSOLUTELY – in THE LAKE OF FIRE – the Second DeathJob 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life. Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, Ps 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: Both Job and King David died a mortal death – and their souls were delivered from that Second Death - unless you preach they are both damned to hellIsa 53:12 because he (jesus) hath poured out his soul unto death: Pour out – gave away – commended his spirit to GodSO what is Matthew 28 about, do not fear those evil men who come to kill you, they have no power over you or your soul, for you are valued by GOD and man cannot take away you because God knows you and values you. Absolutely – I walk through the valley of death and will fear no evil for God is with me Man can hurt my body and kill my body – do I care about man – I fear not Only the archon trap in this world at the expense of your soulD"(1)You absolutely deny that spirit can NOT exist as an independent individual (2) Then you talk of the soul and body being in two locations (3) Just double talk Robert OH - you quote yourself - double speaker D"Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. CONTRADICTORY TO YOUR THEOLOGY D" You claim Jesus Christ was not God in craniate – he was just a manR" I never said that. Jesus was elohiym, fully divine, and added humanity to His divinity. I will quote you – you honest manYou absolutely deny that spirit can NOT exist as an independent individual Then you talk of the soul and body being in two locations Just double talk RobertOH - you quote yourself - double speakerThis is blasphemy against the Spirit – Jesus commended His spirit to God – the spirit returns to God You deny scriptureD" How can the soul exist as an individual entity without the body? R" It can't. Once the body dies, the soul also dies. I have spoken of my definition of death, it's not the same as most people.OK now we are back to more double speak So scripture is wrong when a body dies the soul go to the dust just like all animals? Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth? My understanding is Dave teaches the spirit can exist without the body, why are you misquoting me?Yes Correct Scripture teaches that the spirit does in fact exist without its mortal body.The Body of Jesus was in the Tomb for 3 days and Night And in the meantime – the spirit of Christ preached to the lost in hades The animal’s body and spirit go to the dust – Man’s body goes to the dust but his spirit returns to God – who gave it – at conception (Gen 2:7) – Spirit man + animal man (yester tov) + (yestrer ra) My understanding of Dave, you teach the spirit existed for every man way back in Gen 1, so each spirit must enter it's body upon conception with it body later on when the fetus develops? Correct all the generation of the host of heaven – which includes mankind was created on Day 1 Enoch was instructed to write all the name in a book – some call that the Book of Life, but that an assumption There is no ongoing creationAt what day of conception? – at what stage of fetus? Only God knows But the prolife movement is all about life begins at conceptionAre you pro-life - if so why / if not why the hell not Please explain, as I am bound to get you wrong, you always write brief brevity. Than you say upon the body dying the spirit enter proportional punishment in hell for a while before the spirit is perfected. But some spirit refuse to be perfected so the spirit enters the lake of fire and is extinguished. Close – but you cannot help yourself from making it into a catholic satan statementHell is a Catholic term from the KJV You want it to mean a fire and brimstone type of place because that is how Rome presents it Hades – does not mean Roman Hell Hades simple means the unseen Hell is a middle English word that means to hide away To this day in England and Ireland you hell the potatoes after harvest (you hide them away in a dark place unseen / invisible) Multidimensionalism teaches 10 D – we are 3D – leaving 7 D above us Enoch speaks of some in heaven 3 – and more in heaven 4 Jews have no hell – they have shameA sinful Jew go to heaven and is ashamed of himself – his shame is his personal hell Yes – I teach – when you die your soul /spirit enters the unseen realm (hades)If you die in Christ – you have a Divine Pardon – and are passed through to the Bosom of Abraham Zec 3:1-6 If you die – just a simple believer – you are saved – but each man must face up to his own deeds, works, and fruit. If you die pagan/lost/athiest - you have a chance if you survive Proportional Punishment If you did not have a fair and equal opportunit to respond to the call - a chance at a do-over Was John the Babtist the reincarnation of Elisiah? or are we still waitng for him be be re-incartaited?Luk 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. To each man his dueMat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Some are least in heaven and some are called greatMat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Some receive rewards in heaven – others do notRev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Some whose works and fruit was rewarded as First Fruits Others have to wait for the First Resurrection –yet still saved and reign with God/Christ Two groups – First Fruits and saved believersYou make claims that mans is free to choose. Yes but our choose is never truly independent, nothing is ever truely independent. We are all reliant upon GOD for our choosing of Him or not.Then there is no such thing as Free WillD"This is blasphemy against the Spirit – Jesus commended His spirit to God – the spirit returns to God You deny scripture R" Really Dave what is this verse than? Isa 53:12 because he (jesus) hath poured out his soul unto death: D"Robert’s satan did not kill Christ – the Spirit of Christ – the spirit of Christ returned to GodR" You are changing the hebrew terms Dave, ruwach of Christ.Poured out – as in released – commened into the heaven and GodMat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Mat 27:50 And Yeshua cried out again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. Mat 27:50 And Jesus having again cried with a great voice, yielded the spirit; Mat 27:50 Iesus, when he had cryed agayne with a loude voyce, yeelded vp ye ghost. Mat 27:50 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach cried out again with a loud voice, and dismissed his ruach. I am speaking of nephesh and muwth. Stick to the Scripture words Dave. Stop changing themes.The Spirit of Man = is a spirit – an essence – invisible and formless – Catholic Ghost The Spirit of Man = the Soul (the spirit within a body – the spirit of the body)You just want to play a word game to corrupt the message - the precept - the teachingD"The Resurrection is PROOF – man can kill the body but not the soul – it survives in the unseen realm (Hades) Heavens
LIFE LIVESR" How your Jewish RABBI misquotes the hebrew words. Nobody, including mankind has the ruwach to control at the point of death.You say this – because you deny that man has his own Individual Unique Independent Spirit You say mans is just the HS empowered animalEc 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: Correct – can you will yourself to stay alive forever as a mortal – NO Can you force your way into heaven – NO Can you save yourself from Punishment - NOD"His body put to mortal death – His Spirit quickened – released – set free – to go and preach in hades (the unseen heavens) R" explain yourself Dave, stop writing brief brevity. 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Death to flesh – but the spirit is quickened1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. First Adam – mortal – biology Second Adam = spirit / spiritual – heavenly
And as we have borne the image of the earthy – souljourned here in our earthly garments we shall also bear the image of the heavenly – life in heaven in our heavenly garmentsD"They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” LIFE LIVES R" explain yourself Dave, stop writing brief brevity.Did they kill the soul of Stephen or did the Lord receive it?Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. You quote lots of Scripture but not a single commentary.DAMN – you begged me to post my scripture – now you complain because you cannot understand the scripture I postDid they kill the soul of Stephen or did the Lord receive it?spiritualsprings.org/ss-858.htm DISCUSSION: See over 700 verses in context, with discussions for some verses throughout. (1) Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form , and void ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep . And the Spirit (ruwach) of God moved upon the face of the waters . And the Holy Spirit "wind" (ruwach) of Elohiym (The FAMILY Powers of GOD) moved upon the face of the "hiding powers" flow. There is Only One True God - any other teaching is a lieD" The TRUTH – you are you – whether you are in the body or out of the body R" You do not prove this idea, just quote it. Yep - just quoted scripture and i believe scriptureD"What happens in the afterlife You say that of all the men that God has ever created – only a select few Christians are saved in the end And you try to say your God is Love and Mercy and Full of Grace You are mocking and condemning and making fun, taking me out of context.You absolutely deny that man is a Free Independent Unique Individual with his own Free Will You can call it mocking - but you preach whole hartedly against spiritualityD"The object of Christianity is to WALK in the SPIRIT To live our live in a 24/7 communion with the Holy Spirit To be God's hands and feet here in this world To witness God's Glory to this world To have the Holy Spirt flowing through you 24/7 Is this possible and a man still living in his animal body? R" Why do you write a question, but not answer it? Answer this question Dave. You are confused.I gave you an answer – did you read it? – Did you read the next sentence at least?Is this possible and a man still living in his animal body? Paul had a “LIGHT BULB MOMENT” (your words) when he was in the body or our – he could not tell Paul struggled and was ashamed of his own body (yester ra) Paul struggled and begged for salvation from his body (yester ra) "Miserable man that I am" - Paul realized just how pathetic this mortal life is with its (yester ra) 2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (absent from the body – in spirit to be present with the Lord – spirit to spirit)Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await—the Lord Jesus Christ— Php 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things. (our true home is not this 3D world you love so much – our true home in in heaven – NOT in 3D form but changed to be like Him – clothing exchanged – earthly garment for heavenly garments)2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (as long as you live here in this world – worried about this world – feel threated by this world – controlled by this world – the archon have you successfully preoccupied with the world so you have not the time to be devote to the Holy Spirit)2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. Believer or Born Again we must carry on in faith – do our best You say to do your best to be the best SDA I say do you best to serve the Lord and preaching a two god system of Zorasterism is not it - or preaching doubt about the spirit[/font] Because we will all be judge by our works – our witness + our deeds ad our fruit2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Proportional Punishment – good or bad – each man according to his own choicesOr a Divine Pardon - Savlvation through Christ[/quote] 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The Hebrew word chadesh here, does this mean a brand new body or a brand new spirit, or a brand new man, is the second birth, or is chedesh a renewed birth, a renewed man, a renewed spirit?OK – I agreeBut you claim – just to believe in any ole church doctrine is satisfactory to transform you into an Elisha Even a doctrine that diminishes God and promotes satanD"Believer or Born Again we must carry on in faith – do our best R" you need to explore amanuah more, it is never doing our best. Wrong idea.So you preach perfection – how is that working for you – hasn’t helped your academic honesty at all
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 14:18:48 GMT -5
D" This is so easy – a person needs to let go and realize that this mortal world is fleeting and embrace the spirit – believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and he will come to you as the Holy Spirit if you ask. - The agl is full of it - Christ will send the Comforter - to indwell - to teach you (actuall it says remind you) spirit to spirit But you absolutley deny anything spiritual is possible - man has no spirit you say Ask and you shall receiveR" Agree wholeheartedly. D" 1Co 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;
No Flesh and blood in heaven – you argued against me and scriptureR" Yes not this flesh and blood because it is corrupt, has DNA errors in it. Question: Behold he is a new creature? Do we get a brand new body in heaven, or a renewed body? One without corruption, no DNA errors? SO Jesus is NOT in heaven in a flesh blood body ? Only this spirit thing you define? 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Jesus has a perfect flesh body in heaven, able to atone for our sins, using the older body that died once for our sins on the cross. D" No such thing as a little sin – sin = sin One bite and you are a sinnerR" you think? 1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. spiritualsprings.org/ss-759.htmD" So you deny that you claim the spirit of Christ died upon the cross Or you deny that Jesus Christ was divinity – which is it?R" How about you tell me your view on this Dave? D" The Son of Man died upon the cross and that biological body went into the tombR" OK so the Son of Man died on the cross and the biological body went into the tomb. I agree with this. D" The body of Jesus was in the Tomb for 3 Days and Nights (Thurs – Sunday) not Friday to Sunday Or the Body of Jesus was in hades the (unseen heavens)R" I agree with you D" In the meantime the spirit of Christ was witnessing to those who lived before the flood Then on the third day – the changed body (Resurrected body) of Jesus rose from the TombR" So this spirit went back into it's body? or ? please explain? Or preached in a spirit body only, without a flesh body? D" So you agree – you are just you – a free and independent unique individual So you disagree – you are not just you – you are gods – it is god inside you that allows you to think and make choicesR" Dave not a single muscle is free to do anything without God. Where does energy come from? From God. But in a limited way, yes, we are a free and independent unique individual. Ok? D" Nope God is a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all angels are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all archon are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Also man is a a Free and Independent Unique IndividualR" I thought only man has free will, now you say God, angels and archons also have free will? D" Here ya go – word game again and again and again You do not use the word mortal correctlyR" I see?? the body dies, but not the spirit? D" So you deny 1 Peter 3:19 1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
R" It's a strange context Dave? How does a writer write of the human souls who are in a sense wanting to be supporters of Jesus? What words are available to the writers in Greek? You are the expert, list such words? preached unto the spirits in prison; preached unto the souls in prison; Any other suitable words? I see this word as a reference to a person wanting the character of Jesus in them. A reference to a willing human soul. No what you are saying the spirit can float out of the body and speak to other spirits elsewhere in space. All humans are trapped in a prison since all humans have sinned. This means our bodies are our prison house and our minds are trapped into the prison body we have. Only Jesus can offer us a renewed body that is not subject to sin, thus allows us to escape from our prison. D" Prove Moses wrote GenesisR" Ancient Hebrew script. Rest of Bible is mostly modern Hebrew script. D" One says King Herod the Great and one says his son King Herod ArchelausR" maybe both reigned concurrently? D" So – you admit – God ? the HS direct your steps into sin or salvationR" can't you read Scripture? May plans his directions his course, including evil, and GOD does the steps you want to go there. For example, baby 2 year old. Daddy I want to drive a car. Ok. Dad drives the car with baby 2 yr old on his knee. Daddy I want to drive off this cliff. Daddy pleads... but no good. So Daddy drives the car with baby 2 year old off the cliff and the baby dies, Daddy God cannot die. See the verse explained Dave, yes you have limited free will to choose anything you like, and God does your request. If you can answer all 9 points correctly and I agree with you, why do you say I deny scripture when I agree with you? D" Show me your verse that says only the Roman Received text is allowed Or show me verse that says Enoch is error - Oh wait Jude - the bother of Jesus preaches the Prophesy of Enoch - you promise to disuss it with me - but that was also months agoR" My understanding is the Jews asked the Romans to establish a school after the Romans demolished the temple, and the Jews themselves established the selected sacred OT canon we have today. Jude My understanding is quoted what Enoch spoke as a prophecy, not something Enoch wrote down. You will have to provide evidence Rome selected the OT canon, I believe the Jews did themselves. D" Both Job and King David died a mortal death – and their souls were delivered from that Second Death - unless you preach they are both damned to hellR" Oh so now you twist the soul death verses to say only the body died, not the soul because these souls were saved?? Please clarify your views Dave, instead you let me second guess you all the time? Dave it says the soul dies, that is what nephesh and muwth mean in a sentence, so twisting the meanings. D" Pour out – gave away – commended his spirit to God Than you twist to say Jesus soul did not die unto death as the verse says? Isa 53:12 because he (jesus) hath poured out his soul unto death: You are a fiddle with words? poured out does not mean the soul died? D"Pour out – gave away –R" Oh so poured out soul unto death, does not mean died....Jesus gave his soul away to God... not died.... D" Man can hurt my body and kill my body R" Yes, but the soul is connected to the body, a part of the body, but the soul is technically a relationship with God, so cannot be lost unless God chooses to abandon you. Only the wicked souls are abandoned by God. D" So scripture is wrong when a body dies the soul go to the dust just like all animals? Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?R" Again you are mixing terms, nephesh and ruwach. When a body dies the soul also dies, but this is not a very good statement, because the soul is made alive by a divine relationship connection to God, so when the body dies chemically, the soul connection to God is severed. The divine relationship connection can be broken, and in this sense we can say the soul dies when the body also dies. Am I explaining things to you OK? A body comes from dust and is made of matter. A soul on the other hand comes into being when the HS allows the power of GOD to empower the body and make the body living, so the relationship of divinity to matter, allows the body to become a living soul. The soul is not technically biological because its power comes from the divine. If the divine power is broken, the body begins to die chemically and decay. The soul connection ends immediately and the thought process of the soul ends that very day.\ Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth? This verse is speaking of the HS in all living things, empowering life in all biological systems. In man because God wishes man to respond to the divine relationship, the spirit of man is administrated and recorded so man is judged by God (hence spirit goes upward) in order to be saved by God, since only mankind is saved from sin. 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Notice all three terms are listed, spirit soul and body. Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: This verse says man cannot control the spirit, because it is adminsitrated by the HS and remembered by GOD and is the quality of God reproduced in man, if man is willing for this. D" Yes Correct Scripture teaches that the spirit does in fact exist without its mortal body. The Body of Jesus was in the Tomb for 3 days and Night And in the meantime – the spirit of Christ preached to the lost in hadesR" Dave Scripture does not teach this, you twist over an idiom. 1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; What is an idiom? A saying somebody makes in their culture. What is Peter talking about here? The spirits in prison could refer to humans trapped in their sins, and thus Jesus is not able to save such spirits by allowing man's spirit to partner with Jesus spirit. It's a stretch to make this verse say the body is left behind and the spirit goes forth to preach to other spirits. D" If you die pagan/lost/athiest - you have a chance if you survive Proportional PunishmentR" No hell as such, OK. What happens if the wicked spirit respond to God, is he than saved? But he was saved without entering a body, is that not fair on those who are saved whilst in the body as a spirit? D" Then there is no such thing as Free WillR" Yes there is, just no such thing as being independent of God. God empowers all things. If you wanted to walk away from God, God must create a path so you can walk away from God. But it is your free will to walk away. D" Did they kill the soul of Stephen or did the Lord receive it?R" They killed the body causing the soul to end, but the spirit cannot be killed because it is a relationship with God, that part of GOD you choose to adopt as your own, and nobody can take it from you because God gives his spirit to you as your spirit, and the spirit from God is immortal and divine. There are two DNA sources in a sinful person, one is the DNA you are born with, fallen corrupt and prone to sinful propensities. The other DNA comes from GOD non-corrupt, perfect and free from propensities to sin. God created both DNA sources, but sin spoiled the DNA flesh of man when Adam sinned. Now Jesus comes as the second Adam, not as a spirit, but as a literal second Adam, with the body like Adams spoiled by sin, but Jesus did no sin during his time in this body. His unspoiled body becomes a renewed spirit, that overcomes all defects and blemishes and is quickened to become perfect and without DNA corruption. Now humans with a condemned flesh are able to adopt the spirit body of Jesus, by being quickened as Jesus was via the HS, our old bodies become this spirit body Jesus has without sin. You speak as if the spirit is not a body, but it is. It is the body of Jesus given to us as the second birth Jesus requires of all supporters of Him by faith. The Hebrew word chadesh here, does this mean a brand new body or a brand new spirit, or a brand new man, is the second birth, or is chedesh a renewed birth, a renewed man, a renewed spirit? D" OK – I agreeR" SO you agree the body is renewed, not taken away and killed so the spirit lives, but that our body is renewed into Jesus body and we go to heaven in our bodies of Jesus. D" So you preach perfection – how is that working for you – R" Jesus is perfect, I am not. 1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. Not all sin is unto death. Jesus overlooks some of our imperfections, and is our perfection before the Father. Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. One body dies daily while the other body lives daily, while the soul is connected to Jesus daily. 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Spirit soul and body all important to God. Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. SO our new spirit body is quickened by Jesus, while our old body of sin dies. D"S o – you admit – God ? the HS direct your steps into sin or salvation Then why give man a Free Will?R" SO man has a has a free will to plan his course, his direction in life. Pr 16:9 ¶ A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. What does this verse mean to you, if it's not saying what I am saying? Pr 16:32 ¶ He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city. Why must our spirit be ruled by us? Because not all spirit development is good, there are evil spirits that develop evil spirits in us, ie a wicked character. Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin} 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. There are two bodies of character here, one comes from Jesus whose body never sinned, and the other body is the one we are born with that has sinned many times. Nicodemus saw this problem and said how can a man receive a different body and be born again? This new body comes into the human via the womb of the HS and is daily created in us. Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. David starts off with the idea of a new heart and a new spirit, but where do these things come from? The mind? Ps 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. From the body connected to the heart and spirit, comes forth the fruits of the Lord, praise flowing out of the body. Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. Sacrificing a animal but sinless body for your sins because your body sinned when your mind sinned, is of no meaning to God, only the sacrifice of Lord's body on your behalf is considered perfect. Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. A broken spirit is what God requires of us. What is this? Can a spirit be broken? Pr 17:22 ¶ A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones. A broken spirit drieth the bones, so what does a living spirit do? 1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 ¶ To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. The opposite of broken spirit is a lively spirit, again the metaphor is about stones. Bones are examples of living stones, such stones make blood, the central metaphor of life itself. 1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Peter tells us not to allow our old bodies to have dominion, but to control and fight over our old bodies of sin, and to develop our new body through Jesus, which is called his spirit, which becomes our renewed spirit. A different body that produces a different mind and a different walk with God. 1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: In fact we walk as Jesus walked, and have faith in the Father as Jesus had faith in His Father. 1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: We obtain the same victory as Jesus obtained, walking in the faith of Jesus. 1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Notice Jesus took away our sins in His old body, that is exchanged for our body of sins, and we receive His body that has no sins, and so we develop a renewed body of Jesus that is sinless all over. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Does this verse say our bodies are removed and we live in only a ghostly spirit body? No 1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: I see you are preaching Jesus lives in heaven and came to earth in a spirit body, but Scripture says Jesus came in a flesh body that was sinless. Jesus spirit body is a biological body like ours but without sin, able to walk through walls, so can do things our older body cannot do. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. So what is this verse you speak of? 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; What did Jesus say to the spirits in prison?
According to 1 Peter 3:19, Jesus “made proclamation” to these spirits in prison. The Greek word translated “proclaimed” or “preached” means “to publicly declare” or “to herald.” If the spirits are demons, then Peter says that Jesus went to the Abyss and proclaimed His victory to the fallen angels imprisoned there. They had lost, and He had won.I post this as an example of other views, not my view....reading other www views are weird... I found this by Uriah Smith, a SDA preacher in EGW time "2. 1 Peter 3:19. Is not the prison here referred to, the prison-house of the grave? ANS. We think not, inasmuch as the scripture seems to represent that the preaching was done to those spirits while they were in prison; hence they could not have been in their graves; but the time referred to must be while they were yet alive; therefore we take the word “prison” in this instance, to refer to their peculiar condition, they being shut up under the wrath of God, and their days limited to a hundred and twenty years. " Cannot find any comments by Ellen White from the Lord. I found this written by Waggoner, another SDA person in EGW time:- I quote" For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit; by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” The simplest way to show what the text does not mean, is to show what it does mean. This we may do by a series of questions which will enable the reader himself to explain its meaning. Thus:-
1. Who once suffered? Answer—“Christ also hath once suffered.”
2. For what did Christ suffer? Ans-“For sins.”
3. Why did he thus suffer? Ans.-“That he might bring us to God.”
4. How did he suffer? Ans.-“Being put to death in the flesh.”
5. By what was he quickened, or made alive? Ans.-“Quickened [made alive] by the Spirit.”
6. What else did he do by the Spirit? Ans.-“He went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
7. Why were they in prison? Ans.-They “sometime [once] were disobedient.”
8. When were they disobedient and in prison? Ans.-“When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah.”
There is the whole matter stated in the words of Scripture, so plainly that the most obtuse could not fail to see it. These disobedient spirits were in prison in the days of Noah, and therefore it was at that time that the preaching was done to them.
Note the harmony between this text and Genesis 6:3. This text says, that Christ, by the Spirit, went and preached to the spirits in prison, “When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah.” This would imply that in the days of Noah, God had waited a long time for something. Now read Genesis 6:3: “And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.” Here we find that God’s longsuffering waited one hundred and twenty years, to give those wicked people a chance to repent. All that time Christ, by the Spirit, was preaching to them. Noah was the visible agent, but he was simply the mouthpiece, just as Paul says of all true preachers, they are “ambassadors for Christ,” saying to sinners, “We pay you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.” 2 Corinthians 5:20.
Here we might leave this subject, but someone will probably be questioning about the prison, and we may as well forestall the queries. By gross perversion of Scripture, it is assumed that this prison was hades, and that the preaching was done there. Indeed, many would-be expositors write as though this were expressly stated in the text. In the next number we shall show clearly why such an assumption is absurd, and how it would have been impossible for Christ, or anybody else, to preach in hades, for that subject is worthy of an article by itself. We shall now be content to show what the imprisonment was, which is mentioned in the text.
The reader will bear in mind that these “spirits in prison” were disobedient. Now disobedience brings condemnation to death (Romans 6:23), and a man under sentence of death is always kept in prison. This is the idea conveyed by the psalmist when he says: “From Heaven did the Lord behold the earth; to hear the groaning of the prisoners; to loose those that are appointed to death.” Psalm 102, 19, 20. And the idea is still more forcibly expressed by the apostle, when he says that Christ took part of flesh and blood, “that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them, who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.” Hebrews 2:14, 15.
Nothing but sin causes fear of death; hence the text teaches emphatically that sin makes men “subject to bondage.” It is the especial mission of Christ to save people from sin (Matthew 1:21), and consequently to release them from prison. For proof of this read the following texts:-
Isaiah 61:1: “The spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”
Isaiah 42:1-7: “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him; ... to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison.”
Notice that Christ proclaims the opening of the prison to them that are bound, and brings out the prisoners from the prison, because the Spirit is upon him. This agrees with Peter’s statement that Christ, by the Spirit, went and preached to the spirits in prison.
Psalm 116:16: “O Lord, truly I am thy servant; I am thy servant, and the son of thine handmaid; thou hast loosed my bonds.”
Psalm 142:7: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name.”
Psalm 79:11: “Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.” Compare Psalm 102:19, 20; Hebrews 2:16.
To this might be added our Saviour’s talk to the Jews, recorded in the eighth of John. He told them how they might be made free. Verse 32. They denied that they were in bondage. Verse 33. He told them that “whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (verse 34), and therefore in bondage. Compare Romans 6:16-18; 7:14; 2 Peter 2:19. He then told them that the Son alone could make them free indeed. Verse 36. Yet although Christ was there, filled with the same Spirit by which he preached to the wicked antediluvians, these Jews, like them, refused to be set free, and died in their sins. Verse 21.
With this we leave the text, 1 Peter 3:18-20, believing that anyone with whom simple Bible statements are all-sufficient evidence, will have no difficulty in seeing that it teaches this; that by the same Spirit by which Christ was raised from the dead, he went in the days of Noah, and through him, preached unto the antediluvians, who were in the bondage of sin; and that in so doing he was simply doing what he is doing to-day, and has been doing ever since the fall.
This work of Christ, of preaching deliverance to the captives, is limited to this present life, for when he comes the second time he comes “without sin unto salvation,” to take the released prisoners home.
Therefore, “To-day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts;” for, “behold now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.” W.
“‘Christian Science’” The Signs of the Times, 13, 16end quote: I see Jesus came to all humans trapped in their prison bodies, so our minds can be free in a renewed body without sin. Waggoner writes well and I feel this is the matter of the Scriptures. SHalom.
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Post by Dave on Sept 7, 2021 17:27:28 GMT -5
D"This is so easy – a person needs to let go and realize that this mortal world is fleeting and embrace the spirit – believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and he will come to you as the Holy Spirit if you ask. - The agl is full of it - Christ will send the Comforter - to indwell - to teach you (actuall it says remind you) spirit to spirit But you absolutely deny anything spiritual is possible - man has no spirit you say Ask and you shall receive R" Agree wholeheartedly. – to what?Christianity is a spiritual event just like true Judaism – Elisha? Or is there no such thing as spirit – and the most scripture promised it to be Elisha servant beliver?D"No such thing as a little sin – sin = sin One bite and you are a sinner R" you think? 1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. I believe1Jn 5:17 πᾶσα ἀδικία ἁμαρτία ἐστίν· καὶ ἔστιν ἁμαρτία οὐ πρὸς θάνατον. All unrighteousness = sin – and sin does not mean death – it is called salvationD"Nope God is a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all angels are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all archon are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Also man is a a Free and Independent Unique Individual R" I thought only man has free will, now you say God, angels and archons also have free will?What does one thing have to with the other? - NOTHINGD"So you deny 1 Peter 3:19 1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; R" It's a strange context Dave? How does a writer write of the human souls who are in a sense wanting to be supporters of Jesus? What words are available to the writers in Greek? You are the expert, list such words?
preached unto the spirits in prison; preached unto the souls in prison; 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 3:20 ἀπειθήσασί ποτε, ὅτε ἀπεξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε, κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ, εἰς ἣν ὀλίγαι, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί, διεσώθησαν δι᾿ ὕδατος. Those who were IN THE DAYS OF NOAH – when the ARK WAS BEING BUILTR”Prove Enoch wrote EnochD"Prove Moses wrote GenesisR" Ancient Hebrew script. Rest of Bible is mostly modern Hebrew script. Oh that proof? – Enoch wrote his stuff – King Solomon wrote his stuff – and the agl authors wrote there stuff in the Nag HammadiD"One says King Herod the Great and one says his son King Herod Archelaus R" maybe both reigned concurrently? – you are trying to make up stuff as a defenseFacts are more valuable D"Show me your verse that says only the Roman Received text is allowed Or show me verse that says Enoch is error - Oh wait Jude - the bother of Jesus preaches the Prophesy of Enoch - you promise to disuss it with me - but that was also months ago R" My understanding is the Jews asked the Romans to establish a school after the Romans demolished the temple, and the Jews themselves established the selected sacred OT canon we have today.1- Correct – Roman education2- the Jews themselves established the selected sacred OT canon we have today.IS A LIECatholic OT – is the Greek LXX – ordered by Ptomomey around 250BC The LXX is only the Tanak – it is not the Jewish Bible – it is only a part of the whole Then in 1684 14 of those book were removed by Rome Jude My understanding is quoted what Enoch spoke as a prophecy, not something Enoch wrote down. Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jud 1:14 It was also about these people that Enoch, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His kedoshim, Jud 1:14 And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, Sorry Robert - Enoch prophesiedYour attempt to twist scripture is noted You will have to provide evidence Rome selected the OT canon, I believe the Jews did themselves.Correct – at the time of Christ – or anytime before Christ – the Jews never had A BIBLE’!They had a Temple filled with temple Scrolls Was the Tanak part of it – YES Does the Tanak represent all of it - NO Did the Jews ever say – the Tanak is the sum total of all the every document the Jews respected or read Beelzebub is a perfect example – did the Jews recognize this name from the Tanak only? – NO The name comes from other writing by King Solomon No one stopped and said who? – Everyone understood – except you All the quotations of Enoch – was it new or foreign to the audience – NO Both Enoch and King Solomon = common knowledge – because it was respected knowledge D"Both Job and King David died a mortal death – and their souls were delivered from that Second Death - unless you preach they are both damned to hell R" Oh so now you twist the soul death verses to say only the body died, not the soul because these souls were saved?? Please clarify your views Dave, instead you let me second guess you all the time? You just clarified my pointThe body dies / dust to dust / the body return to the dust – Correct The soul is released / quickened (KJV)word / released / let go / freed from the body and returns to God D"So scripture is wrong when a body dies the soul go to the dust just like all animals? Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth? R" Again you are mixing terms, nephesh and ruwach.Word Games Nope you are just denying the spirit and the spiritualEcc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth? This verse is speaking of the HS in all living things, empowering life NOPE – each man is a free and independent unique individualD"Yes Correct Scripture teaches that the spirit does in fact exist without its mortal body. The Body of Jesus was in the Tomb for 3 days and Night And in the meantime – the spirit of Christ preached to the lost in hades R" Dave Scripture does not teach this, you twist over an idiom.Denying scripture – loud and clearD"If you die pagan/lost/athiest - you have a chance if you survive Proportional Punishment R" No hell as such, OK. Each soul/spirit/man is purified by fire – it is torment – it is punishment – sure feels like hell There is no such thing as Dante’s infernal – a flaming suffer pit / sulfur pit – filled with demons and satan is the devil with a pointy tail and a pitch fork – who wants to win you to evil so you can come be in his kingdom – YES – all that is catholic Myth D"Did they kill the soul of Stephen or did the Lord receive it? R" They killed the body causing the soul (body) to end, but the spirit cannot be killed because it is a (spirit)D"So you preach perfection – how is that working for you – R" Jesus is perfect, I am not. OH – you are doing your best? I thought that was incorrect?1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. Not all sin is unto death. Above in this same post you didn’t understand this verseJesus overlooks some(all) of our imperfections, and is our perfection before the Father. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. So what is this verse you speak of?1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; In the flesh – (yester ra) this is that spirit of antichrist – archon – world – deny the spirit – just focus on the worldye have heard that it should come – prophesy – DUHand even now already is it in the world. – (at the time of Christ – archon / Principalities – our real struggle / the Beast – the serpent race – the devil - satanas) What did Jesus say to the spirits in prison?According to 1 Peter 3:19, Jesus “made proclamation” to these spirits in prison. The Greek word translated “proclaimed” or “preached” means “to publicly declare” or “to herald.” If the spirits are demons, then Peter says that Jesus went to the Abyss and proclaimed His victory to the fallen angels imprisoned there. They had lost, and He had won. I post this as an example of other views, not my view....reading other www views are weird... What does scripture say1Pe 3:18 … being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, (in the spirit) 1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, … in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, What did Jesus say to the spirits in prison? 1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, immersion now brings you to safety—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but a pledge to God of a good conscience—through the resurrection of Messiah Yeshua. 1Pe 3:21 also to which an antitype doth now save us—baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: I found this by Uriah Smith, a SDA preacher in EGW time "2. 1 Peter 3:19. Is not the prison here referred to, the prison-house of the grave? Makes a nice sermon but is not scripturalThe prison was the abyss holding the prisoners from the time of Noah
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 14:31:14 GMT -5
D"Nope God is a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all angels are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Just as all archon are a Free and Independent Unique Individual Also man is a a Free and Independent Unique Individual R" I thought only man has free will, now you say God, angels and archons also have free will? D" What does one thing have to with the other? - NOTHING
R" What "Free and Independent " mean to you? Free like as free will to choose, and independent as to independent from God, nothing is technically independent from God? explain.
D"the Jews themselves established the selected sacred OT canon we have today. IS A LIE Catholic OT – is the Greek LXX – ordered by Ptomomey around 250BC The LXX is only the Tanak – it is not the Jewish Bible – it is only a part of the whole Then in 1684 14 of those book were removed by Rome ----------- The Content and Extent of the Old Testament Canon Related Media Introduction
The Apostle Paul wrote, regarding the Old Testament, “Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come” (1 Cor. 10:11). The use of the Old Testament Scriptures by the church of Christ has been the subject of some debate from the early church fathers up to the present day. The debate is primarily concerned with the question of what writings are truly in the canon of the Old Testament Scriptures. The word “canon” is from a Greek word that means a “rule” or “standard”; in the second century Christian church it came to be understood as “revealed truth.”1 Yet for some Christians the “revealed truth” represented more than for others. Augustine is a fine example of this, as he “. . . regarded the church to be the custodian of Scripture and thus may easily have concluded that on matters of the extent of the canon the church had the authority to decide. . .
Augustine seemed to consider church reception to be sufficient warrant for canonical authority; this he gave as the reason for accepting the Maccabean books as canonical.”2 Initially, it was not as if the canon itself was debated as much as it was looked at differently. Some held that the canon was extensive enough to encompass all the books read in the church for edification, which would include the Apocrypha and sometimes the Pseudipigrapha (anonymous apocalyptic writings). Others held that the canon was simply that of the Jewish Bible, representing also the Protestant Bibles of today.3 It was not until the age of the Reformation that the debate began to rage. In 1546 when the Council of Trent made a formal statement that all not accepting the selected Apocryphal writings should be damned, the Protestants retorted with an equally resolute voice.
The question of canonicity is completely valid. If there are disputes about what is Scripture, the validity of faith itself is greatly at stake. For as Beckwith puts it so well, “. . . with no canon there is no Bible.”4 This paper will briefly discuss the major issues of the Old Testament canon attempting to show the contents and extent of the canon.
The Concept of the Old Testament Canon How ironic it is that evangelicals today base their beliefs solely on Scripture, and yet their canon was recognized by tradition. The way that canon was regarded in history past plays an integral role in the recognition of the canon. The tradition and authority of the people of God throughout history have attested that there was a group of writings, divinely inspired, which were recognizable as such. The internal evidence within the Old Testament itself affirms that it is Scripture. Deuteronomy 31:24-26 says, “And it came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, ‘Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.’” Deuteronomy itself, “. . .also reaffirms in Israel the idea of a ‘canon,’ a collection of written materials by which the life of the nation would be administered.”5
The inter-testament saints held that there was a known corpus of Scripture, for in their writings they would often refer to it with the authoritative phrase, “as it is written,” or “according to Scripture,” or “it is written.” In fact, references to almost all of the books of the Old Testament are considered to be Scripture by the writers of the inter-testament and the New Testament period. Beckwith says of this period that
. . . with the exception of the three short books of Ruth, Song of Songs and Esther, the canonicity of every book of the Hebrew Bible is attested, most of them several times over. . . it is very striking that, over a period ranging from the second century BC (at latest) to the first century AD, so many writers, of so many classes (Semitic, Hellenistic, Pharisaic, Essene, Christian), show such agreement about the canon. . .6
In addition, there are at least 28 documented separate titles for the Old Testament canon proving that the individual books had become a collection sufficient enough to warrant various titles to the group (i.e. canon) as a whole.7
Church history took very heavily into consideration what Jesus and the New Testament writers thought about the Old Testament in determining canonicity. The number of references to the Old Testament by New Testament writers is abundant, and it attests to the fact that there was an established canon at the time of their writing.
Probably the fullest evidence (in secular writings) on the concept of there being a canon is in the work of Josephus. In Against Apion 1.7f., or 1.37–43, Josephus gives his understanding that, not only was there a canon, but he also lists what he believes that canon is. This list is identical to the Jewish and Christian canon with one exception, that of omitting either the Song of Songs or Ecclesiastes.8 Josephus mentions that there were copies of Scripture in the Temple itself, and before its destruction in AD 70 it contained a collection of books. This collection was considered by the Jewish community to be canon, for “the main test of the canonical reception of a book must have been whether or not it was one of those laid up in the Temple.”9
This evidence reveals not what the books of the canon are, but the fact that the concept of a canon did indeed already exist before the beginning of the Christian era.
The Construct of the Old Testament Canon Not only does the literature testify to the concept of there being a canon, but also to the construction of that canon as being in three parts: the Law, the Prophets and the Hagiographa. This is a method of arranging the various books evidenced from many sources outside the canon itself. The earliest evidence is from the prologue to the book Ecclesiasticus which specifically mentions three times the three parts of the canon. The author says, “. . . many great things have been communicated to us through the Law and the prophets, and the others who followed after. . . my grandfather Jeshua, after devoting himself for a long time to the reading of the Law and the prophets and the other books of our forefathers. . .”. Here the author, writing about 180 BC, clearly delineates the construction as being in three recognized parts, and these parts, having titles and sections, show that by the writer’s time the canon was considered closed.
Jesus Himself, the most authoritative witness for the Christian, states in Luke 24:44 the three sections of the Old Testament as “the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms . . .” “Psalms” undoubtedly means the whole Hagiographa, for Christ often referred to Daniel, which was a part of that third section, as well as the book of Psalms itself, after which the section was named. Philo and the tenth century Arabian writer al-Masudi both refer to the Hagiographa as the “Psalms.”10
Since the Jews traditionally placed the book of Chronicles in the Hagiographa, another statement of Jesus alludes to the three sections of the completed canon. He said in Luke 11:50-51 (also in Matthew 23:35), “. . .in order that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house {of God;} yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.” The Zechariah referred to is certainly the one in 2 Chronicles 24:21, and this is significant because His statement is, in a sense, referring to the first part of the three sections (Genesis) and to the last (Chronicles), implying the inclusion of the second section as well. Christ’s point also is in His mentioning the prophets, for “. . . prophecy, as the Jews knew well, had virtually ended with the composition of the latest book of Holy Scripture. . .,” which was the book of 2 Chronicles, written about 400 BC.
Judas Maccabaeus and his associates, in 164 BC, compiled a list of the Prophets and Hagiographa at least 250 years prior to the generally assumed date of the closing of the canon (AD 90, at the Synod of Jamnia). The historical book of 2 Maccabees 2:14f describes it this way: “And in like manner Judas (Maccabaeus) also gathered together for us all those writings that had been scattered by reason of the war that befell, and they are still with us. If therefore ye have need thereof, send some to fetch them unto you.” Beckwith says,
Judas knew that the prophetic gift had ceased a long time before (1 Macc. 9:27; cp. Also 4.46; 14;41), so what is more likely than that, in gathering together the scattered scriptures, he and his companions the Hasidim classified the now complete collection in the way which from that time became traditional. . .The manner in which Judas Maccabaeus did his work was presumably by compiling a list, not by combining books in large scrolls. . . If Judas gave such structure to the canon, he must have had a definite collection of writings to work on.11
The Old Testament books, as grouped in the canon, also had an established order. The relevancy that there was an established order--even though that order was different for different people--implies that the books in that order, however arranged, were recognized as canonical and that the canon was closed at the time of its ordering.
The number of the books is also a relevant issue, and the evidence shows that the number of the canonical books was always assumed to be 22 or 24. The books themselves were the same in both renderings; they would simply be grouped differently. “In earlier days they combined Ruth with Judges, and Lamentations with Jeremiah and thus made twenty-two books equivalent to the twenty-two letters in the Hebrew alphabet.”12 It is “. . . difficult to conceive of those books being counted, and the number being generally accepted and well known, if the canon remained open and the identity of its books uncertain. . . agreement about their number implies agreement about their identity.”13
The Contents of the Old Testament Canon THE CANONICAL BOOKS It would be logical that upon completion of an Old Testament book the book was canonical. Theoretically, this must be true, but actually, a book of Scripture was considered to be such by virtue of the authority of the human author. So while the Pentateuch was completed with the death of Moses, and the Prophets and the Hagiographa with their authors, the recognition of their canonicity may have been centuries after their actual completion. Consequently, as recognitions differ, there was some dispute about mainly five books of the Old Testament, sometimes called the “antilegomena” or the “books spoken against.” These were: Ezekiel, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, and Esther. The secular motifs in these books were the leading cause of concern to some scholars as well as was the apparent contradictions with other canonical books which were not disputed. The disputes themselves imply that the books in question were considered canonical, because contradictions in un-inspired texts would have been assumed, and therefore, non-existent. It is usually assumed that the presence of the dispute proves that the canon was still open and up for grabs and that it was not settled until the Council of Jamnia in AD 90. The motivation behind such an assertion is the desire to canonize some Apocryphal and books of the Pseudepigrapha as well. Beckwith makes a good argument14 that Ezekiel was not debated, it being part of the already closed Prophets, and not the Hagiographa, which was the subject of debate at Jamnia. In particular only the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes were debated, or according to the Rabbi Akiba, only Ecclesiastes. Green quotes Rabbi Akiba from the Talmud regarding the Jewish opinion of the inspiration of the Song of Solomon. “‘Silence and Peace! No one is Israel has ever doubted that the Song of Solomon defiles the hands [i.e. is Scripture]. For no day in the history of the world is worth the day when the Song of Solomon was given to Israel. For all the Hagiographa are holy, but the Song of Solomon is a holy of holies. If there has been any dispute, it referred only to Ecclesiastes. . . So they disputed and they decided.”15 And what did they decide? “‘The wise men desired to withdraw (ganaz) the Book of Ecclesiastes because its language was often self-contradictory and contradicted the utterances of David. Why did they not withdraw it? Because the beginning and the end of it consist of words of the law.’ Sabbath 30b.”16 The book of 2 Esdras shows that Ezra republished the 24 books of the inspired law. “How could such an assertion be made if five of the 24 books were known to have been added to the canon about AD 90, only ten years or so earlier?”17 In the end the Hagiographa triumphed. For two factors helped, says Pfeiffer: “The first was mere survival. In ancient times, when books had to be copied laboriously by hand on papyrus or parchment, no literary work could survive for a few centuries unless it had attained considerable circulation. . . We may wonder, for instance, why Esther should have survived among the Jews, while Judith perished, since the appeal of both was mainly patriotic.”18
THE NON-CANONICAL BOOKS The non-canonical books which were excluded from the canon had a foot in the canonical door mainly by virtue of the disputed books’ arguments. The thought was, “If we can dispute about these five canonical books, can we not also dispute about these other books as being canonical too?” For the most part, the books in question from the Pseudepigrapha (anonymous authors) and Apocrypha could not be included in the canon, for one reason, because their date is much later than the previously attested date of the closing of the canon recognized by Judas Maccabaeus in 164 BC. The confusion comes in that many of the books in question are impeccable historical sources, and are true in what they say, but truth does not necessarily equate with canonicity. The books such as 1 Maccabees, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, and Ecclesiasticus, just to name a few, contain great value in and of themselves. But value is not enough to warrant canonicity. Even within the book of such value as Ecclesiasticus are personal biases that Holy Scripture would not commend. The author, Jesus the son of Sira, reveals a great deal of his personal character as he “not only expresses his views quite frankly on a variety of subjects, making no secret, for instance, of his intense dislike for the fair ‘weaker’ sex (9:8; 23:22-27. . .).”19
AUGUSTINE BELIEVED THAT SOME OF THE APOCRYPHA WAS INSPIRED. Nevertheless, in the heat of the argument, Augustine limits his Old Testament to the Jewish canon when he writes in his tract on ‘Faith of Things not Seen’ appealing to the Scriptures as follows: ‘Unless haply unbelieving men judge those things to have been written by Christians, in order that those things which they already believed might have greater weight of authority if they should be thought to have been promised before they came. If they suspect this let them examine carefully the codices of our enemies the Jews. There let them read those things of which we have made mention.’20
“Philo, the Egyptian Jew of the first century AD, evidently accepted the twenty-two Hebrew books, for he quotes from many of them and from them only, as authoritative.”21 Jerome as well as Rufinus
. . . were crystal clear on the matter [of not considering them canonical] but their reaction to the pressure exerted on them indicates that many leaders thought the additional books ought to be recognized as inspired. . . Jerome yielded to the popular request in furnishing a translation to the church at large but never permitted his scholarly convictions to yield to the point of recognizing these books as canonical.22
The Essene canon contained some of the Pseudepigrapha which they claimed to be divine. Most of these writings were midrash on canonized books and logically therefore would not be Scripture. For if the Pseudepigrapha contained a copy of a canonical book as well as commentary on it, why would it not negate the original canonical book, because the Pseudepigrapha with its inspired commentary would be much more valuable? In addition, “If they were conscious of being inspired, why did they not have the confidence to use their own names?”23 Even the quote in Jude 14 of 1 Enoch 1:9 does not require that 1 Enoch is Scripture. To quote what is true in Scripture is different than saying that what is quoted is Scripture. Even Paul quoted a pagan poet in Acts 17:28, yet he certainly did not regard it as Scripture but as simply true. The Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essenes also all recognized a closed canon and generally saw that prophecy had ceased before the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha were even written. None of the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha were in the canon of the Jews and it was to this canon that Jesus Himself and the Apostles appealed.
IMPLICATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS The implications of such a study are two-fold. For those who have held that the writings other than the Jewish and Protestant Old Testament are inspired, there needs to be serious reconsideration. Jesus Himself implied that the last prophet was Zechariah in the book of Chronicles. The previous section alone is sufficient to warrant solemn attention. The value of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha is not the question but only whether they were even candidates for canonicity. There is no shame in a change of position, only in resolute rejection of the historical and logical data.
For those who have held to the Jewish and Protestant Old Testament there is the implication of comfort, assurance, as well as a deepening devotion to what God has not only seen fit to reveal to us, but that which He has seen fit to uphold and confirm to us through many different agencies.
Rob's comments: Dave you want add to the OT canon, all other Jewish ideas, additional books, talmud, sages, midrash, etc etc. Can't we agree the OT books we have is enough? But it's not enough for you? You also want to include the Gnostic books and than only selected passages?
------ D"Both Job and King David died a mortal death – and their souls were delivered from that Second Death - unless you preach they are both damned to hell R" Oh so now you twist the soul death verses to say only the body died, not the soul because these souls were saved?? Please clarify your views Dave, instead you let me second guess you all the time? D" You just clarified my point The body dies / dust to dust / the body return to the dust – Correct The soul is released / quickened (KJV)word / released / let go / freed from the body and returns to God R" so if all the souls are in heaven as spirits why does Jesus need to come the second time to get the souls who are already in heaven?
RP" Again you are mixing terms, nephesh and ruwach. D" Word Games R" how easy it is for you to disobey the meanings of Scripture word meaning you don't like.
D"NOPE – each man is a free and independent unique individual R" I have asked you to define this term Does free mean free will to choose GOD or not choose GOD
How can anybody be independent of God? Not possible.
If spirits are truly independent, why does the spirit go to God, and why can go make the spirit die in the Lake of Fire, therefore the spirit is not independent, nor is it free. In fact your spirit thing is totally controlled by God at every aspect of the spirit thing....
D"Each soul/spirit/man is purified by fire – it is torment – it is punishment – sure feels like hell R" How is this achieved if the spirit cannot walk, talk and eat or develop character like God, whilst outside of its body? Please explain If the spirits are already in heaven, what is the second coming for ? And third coming?
D"R" They killed the body causing the soul (body) to end, but the spirit cannot be killed because it is a (spirit)
R" So the spirit in a man cannot be killed, but can be killed in the Lake of Fire? Does this make sense? not to me?
Dave has this spirit theory "
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, (in the spirit)
Rob responds"
Scripture says the prison house refers to all of us trapped in our sins, held bonded to our bodies as a simile of a prison house.
I quote:-
1) Isaiah 61:1: “The spirit of the Lord God is upon me; ..., (to open) of the prison to them that are bound.” 2) Isaiah 42:1-7: “Behold my servant, ...; I have put my Spirit upon him; ... to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison.” 3) Psalm 116:16: “O Lord, ...; thou hast loosed my bonds.” 4) Psalm 142:7: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name.” 5) Psalm 79:11: “Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; ...thou those that are appointed to die.” 6) Jesus told them that “whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (verse 34) 7) Jesus then told them that the Son alone could make them free indeed. You deny Scripture Dave.
D"The prison was the abyss holding the prisoners from the time of Noah R" OK ? 84 verses use prison, how about quoting your view please?
Isa 42: 7 "laid on him the iniquity of us all." To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
Jesus was placed in a prison of sin, does not mention shoawl here?
Where are your texts that shoawl is a prison house? H07585 prison - no matches....sorry Dave....you have a problem
You deny Scripture . Is this just another word game ? It's so easy to make your view come forth? The more verses on a theme, the stronger the theme, I show you (7) verses, that sin itself is a prison house and your body is a prison around your soul.
Show me yours that the abyss is a prison house?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 10, 2021 6:16:42 GMT -5
R" What "Free and Independent " mean to you? Free like as free will to choose, and independent as to independent from God, nothing is technically independent from God? explain.
A unique individual – separate from all the other unique individuals – an island
A cow is unique and different that all the other cows each cow is an island to itself A cow is driven – motivated – governed by – self-preservation instinct as are all creature made with matter (yester ra) – a cow is not evil it is just an animal
Archon are made with some matter (like cows) – motivated by (yester ra) – although they are the most intelligent/crafty beast of them all – the serpent race
Angels are not made with matter – they are ethereal – they are motivated By (yester tov) to serve and praise God
Man is special – man is the creature that can choose – man is animal (yester ra) and spirit (yester tov) Because of Eve – we now know the difference between the two Therefore we get to choose between the two Man can leave God – God won’t make you stay – Prodigal Son Man can choose to return – of his own Free Will – his own choice made as a Free and independent unique individual – and return as the Prodigal Son
They are all empowered by the Holy Spirit – for it is the base ether of the ALL - the HS sustains the rocks, trees, the water, the animals, and man – at the quantum sub atomic level – E=mc2 The HS does not do the thinking or choosing for any of them – they are all alone – an island – a uniquic and free individual to follow our (yester ra) or (yester tov)
Man is the creature that can choose – because man is the creature that is (yester tov)+(yester ra)
D"the Jews themselves established the selected sacred OT canon we have today. IS A LIE Catholic OT – is the Greek LXX – ordered by Ptomomey around 250BC The LXX is only the Tanak – it is not the Jewish Bible – it is only a part of the whole Then in 1684 14 of those book were removed by Rome ----------- As I read this I was overwhelmed by you understanding of the question The Apostle Paul wrote, regarding the Old Testament, “Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come” (1 Cor. 10:11).
1Co 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and it was written down as a warning to us—on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1Co 10:11 And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come,
The use of the Old Testament Scriptures by the church of Christ has been the subject of some debate from the early church fathers up to the present day. The debate is primarily concerned with the question of what writings are truly in the canon of the Old Testament Scriptures. The word “canon” is from a Greek word that means a “rule” or “standard”; in the second century Christian church it came to be understood as “revealed truth.”1 Yet for some Christians the “revealed truth” represented more than for others. Augustine is a fine example of this, as he “. . . regarded the church to be the custodian of Scripture and thus may easily have concluded that on matters of the extent of the canon the church had the authority to decide. . . what writings are truly in the canon of the Old Testament Scriptures. – The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correct The word “canon” – is a Roman Catholic term – not Jewish Rome – gave itself the authority
Augustine seemed to consider church reception to be sufficient warrant for canonical authority; The Concept of the Old Testament Canon . . . with the exception of the three short books of Ruth, Song of Songs and Esther, the canonicity of every book of the Hebrew Bible is attested, most of them several times over. . Saint Augustine is a founder of the Roman Catholic Church - Rome The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correct
Church history took very heavily into consideration what Jesus and the New Testament writers thought about the Old Testament in determining canonicity. Jesus quote Enoch – the agl quotes Enoch The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correct
The number of references to the Old Testament by New Testament writers is abundant, and it attests to the fact that there was an established canon at the time of their writing. Jesus quote Enoch – the ag; quotes Enoch The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correct There are also 46 other titles mentioned within scripture as credible source of information
and before its destruction in AD 70 it contained a collection of books. This collection was considered by the Jewish community to be canon, for “the main test of the canonical reception of a book must have been whether or not it was one of those laid up in the Temple.”9 The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correct Yes it was found in the Temple – DUH Jesus quote Enoch – the ag; quotes Enoch There are also 46 other titles mentioned within scripture as credible source of information
This evidence reveals not what the books of the canon are, but the fact that the concept of a canon did indeed already exist before the beginning of the Christian era. The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correct Yes it was found in the Temple – DUH Jesus quote Enoch – the agl quotes Enoch There are also 46 other titles mentioned within scripture as credible source of information All of it existed before the Roman Canon - DUH
The Old Testament books, as grouped in the canon, also had an established order. The relevancy that there was an established order--even though that order was different for different people--implies that the books in that order, however arranged, were recognized as canonical and that the canon was closed at the time of its ordering. YES – within reason the Christian OT is pretty much the same order as the Tanak
The Contents of the Old Testament Canon THE CANONICAL BOOKS It would be logical that upon completion of an Old Testament book the book was canonical. YES – the Jews consider the Tanak very important
THE NON-CANONICAL BOOKS The non-canonical books which were excluded from the canon had a foot in the canonical door mainly by virtue of the disputed books’ arguments. The thought was, “If we can dispute about these five canonical books, can we not also dispute about these other books as being canonical too?” For the most part, the books in question from the Pseudepigrapha (anonymous authors) Whoops – if the Jews had the Tanak as their Bible – where do these other text come from. (anonymous authors) – like Paul, John, James, Peter, Phillip, Thomas, King Solomon, King David
The Essene canon contained some of the Pseudepigrapha which they claimed to be divine. Most of these writings were midrash on canonized books and logically therefore would not be Scripture. Yes – the tanak was found (most of it) in the Dead Sea Scrolls – along with Enoch, The War Scroll, the Book od Giants, the Book of Creation, etc, etc etc – 2000 document in total
What is your point Robert – yes the Christian OT is the same as the Jewish Tanak Because the Jewish Tanak was translated into Greek circa 250 BC into the LXXX Erasmus used the LXX to compile the Texuts Receptus YES – this is all true Does this prove that the Jews used the Tanak as their Bible – NO The Tanak is just one of many titles found with the temple Library
------ R" so if all the souls are in heaven as spirits why does Jesus need to come the second time to get the souls who are already in heaven? Scripture please – you always write so briefly – I don’t understand
If spirits are truly independent, why does the spirit go to God, 1 - it is our real home - we are just visitorshere - souljourning through this 3D physicial realm 2 - To be judge on their jobs / assignments / commission – Jer 1:5
and why can go make the spirit die in the Lake of Fire, YEP – the punishment for choosing world over God – death of spirit – the second death
therefore the spirit is not independent, nor is it free. Man is free to choose – eternal life or Lake of Fire – that is the gift of Free Will
How can anybody be independent of God? Not possible. In fact your spirit thing is totally controlled by God at every aspect of the spirit thing.... Then man has no Free Will – we are just robots driven around by the HS But you refuse to tell me why your HS sins so much Is your satan – just the HS in disguise ?
D"R" They killed the body causing the soul (body) to end, but the spirit cannot be killed because it is a (spirit) R" So the spirit in a man cannot be killed, but can be killed in the Lake of Fire? Does this make sense? not to me?[/font]
Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls—according to their works; Rev 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire—this is the second death; Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. Judgment – works – Lake of Fire - Second Death – only God can cast you there – only God can put and end to your spirit – the second death – muth muth remember
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, (in the spirit) Rob responds" Scripture says the prison house refers to all of us trapped in our sins, held bonded to our bodies as a simile of a prison house.
1Pe 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer—righteous for unrighteous—that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 1Pe 3:19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 1Pe 3:20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah—an ark being preparing—in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
Jesus preached to those who died during the flood I do not have to make up a different explanation – I just believe scripture
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 19:52:02 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Shabat D" A cow is unique and different that all the other cows each cow is an island to itself
R" You are talking about limited freedom, boundaries set up by the Creator so the cow has limited freedom within the boundaries of the cow's design by God. That is not absolute freedom, but only limited freedom. D" Man can leave God – God won’t make you stay – Prodigal SonR" When a man sins, GOD does not leave the man, the HS still woos the man to repent. If you blaspheme the HS the HS might go silent for years and years, but GOD never leaves the wicked alone... Where does the power to kill comes from in the wicked person? From God. Does this make God responsible? no Your choice, you choose, but there is no such thing as independence... Even the rock with atomic quantum is still dependent upon GOD for there energy within.... Maybe limited independent, but not to all independent from God, not even the atheist. D" Man is the creature that can choose R" Yes only within the boundaries of the Creator's design, limited freedom and limited independence. I wrote about this as a 17 year old in a poem... a simile... spiritualsprings.org/ss-1570.htmWho is Mother Nature Of all her ware, The cloud clear trees Reflect Your Face. While free singing slaves Fly under Your care. O ineffable power Flooding dark space. Notice the idiom in poetry, the free singing slaves.... the birds and humans... both similes and poetry metaphor .... humans are free singing and walking slaves... oxymoron, yes, but fact. -------------------------------- D" The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correctR" so what is the debate over? That I choose to follow the limited tanak and you add all the books of the tanak? Why did GOD limit the tanak to a few books for Gentiles? Is there a principle for this in Scripture? yes Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. God has chosen to reduce the complexity of the Jewish tanak for Gentiles.... do you deny this too? For example is the 500 rules for Sabbath keeping really in the tanak God gave for Gentiles? no Only a few rules are there, why not all the others? Maybe they are not required, human traditions?? D" Yes – the tanak was found (most of it) in the Dead Sea Scrolls – along with Enoch, The War Scroll, the Book od Giants, the Book of Creation, etc, etc etc – 2000 document in totalR" OK so we have 2000 books of the tanak from Dead Sea Scrolls...now how do we decide which scrolls are holy and which we reject as non inspired? Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. The books of Moses and the prophets, other books must line up with these , or else uninspired. RP"R" so if all the souls are in heaven as spirits why does Jesus need to come the second time to get the souls who are already in heaven?D" Scripture please – you always write so briefly – I don’t understandR" What? second coming? 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Jesus kills the wicked with his spirit of his mouth... Hab 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. 4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Second coming is predicted to tarry... Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives Third coming to earth by Jesus, touches the earth 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ...and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Other Saints are rised at second coming (the first fruit saints rised long time before) Mt 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, Jews mock resurrection to Jews with questions of rising the dead... Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many First fruits rise from dead, appeared to many... note both spirit and body rise together Lu 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: We are rise to life like Jesus is, in a body with a spirit of Jesus Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Jesus soul was not left in hell for long, nor his body see decay.... likewise our human souls are left in hell and our bodies see decay... Ac 17:32 ¶ And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: Greeks mock idea of resurrection... Ac 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. Most jews have no concept of resurrection... Ac 24:21 ..., Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day. Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Why does a spirit require resurrection? It doesn't. The soul is resurrected with spirit and body. Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: So as jesus rose from dead, is the same as we humans rise from dead, in a body.... 1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: We rise as Jesus rose, in a body without corruption. Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Wicked wait until 1000 years after saints are raised. no second chance here. Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, No second chance for a wicked person here Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Wicked raised with the soul and body to be judged and thrown into a state of eternal nonexistence, RP" If spirits are truly independent, why does the spirit go to God,D" 1 - it is our real home R" Spirit is not free than is it? Designed to be with GOD, therefore has limited freedom, and design features. D" YEP – the punishment for choosing world over God – death of spirit R" funny the spirit does not die the first death, only body dies, gets a second chance without body, and if not willing to experience God, gets to die during the second death. Does Scripture teach this? Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power Can a spirit be resurrected? No, so your view is a myth Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead Delivered up the dead, is similar to saying resurrected from dead, so the body and spirit rise for their judgement. D" Man is free to choose – eternal life or Lake of Fire – that is the gift of Free WillR" you call that a choice? So if the wicked man does not want to give up smoking, drinking and raping, he dies? Is that a choice for him? no What choice does a wicked man have? none. The only thing God offers sinners is love, and love with heaps of rules. The wicked do not like love, they like booze, gambling, rape and abuse of power. How are you offering them a choice Dave? DO people like G movies or R movies? I don't watch R movies, never seen one. DO people like G movies or M movies? My wife blocks the sex scenes, the violence scenes and the immoral scenes, I usually watch the G movies, hardly watched a M movie . " The mechanic".... "a boring movie" , M movie, 4 sex scenes, 2 immoral scenes, 2 violent scenes. Wife son gave us 100 of them on a USB. I tried to choose a mild one. so in the end we tossed out all 100 of them. Where is a choice for a wicked person? There isn't one. Either God's way or the highway (nonexistence). You call that a choice? God is love. God is NOT anything else. Either you desire love or nonexistence. That is not a choice. Why couldn't God leave the world to its wickedness and let them do their thing? Because within a few months all the wicked would be dead, the atoms would cease to be elements and the temperature would fall to absolute zero, until nothing would exist. No God nothing exists. Is this a choice for wickedness? no D" Then man has no Free Will – we are just robots driven around by the HS But you refuse to tell me why your HS sins so muchR" mock on. You can have God with you or not. Simple. Never heard of a sparrow complaining. Free to fly within boundaries, happy to sing from its design... is there are command along this line? Ex 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. The sparrow must be happy with its own design and not desire to be a cow. Jg 9:14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. Scripture speaks of this desire, to covet some other design by God. D" Rev 20:13...and the hades did give up the dead in them,R" You quote this verse supporting your view Dave, but it does NOT support your view. Ac 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Here is a verse using similar language of words, where is David now? asleep, NOT a spirit in heaven. D "Jesus preached to those who died during the flood I do not have to make up a different explanation – I just believe scripture"R" SO you are happy to take an idiom and make it your own? confusing idioms Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness. “Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust” (Isaiah 40:15). Keep me as the apple of the eye” (Psalm 17:8) Adam “ knew” his wife (Genesis 4:1, ESV).. the manner of women” (Genesis 31:35, person’s heart “ melts,” ..Deuteronomy 20:8 (BSB). “ covered his feet” in Judges 3:24 a great city before God” (YLT). gird up your loins,” ...(Jeremiah 1:17; Job 40:7, NASB). “ eat their own bread,” ...(2 Thessalonians 3:12, NKJV). Mt 5:13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: Mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, Mt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: Mt 7:4 .., Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; Mt 7:6 ...neither cast ye your pearls before swine, Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, Mt 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, Mt 10:25 .... If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub,Mt 10:28 And fear not them whic h kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: Mt 11:7 ...A reed shaken with the wind? Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. How do you unravel an idiom, ? Using Scripture, and only if enough is written about them, otherwise we are not certain. \ Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 10, 2021 23:39:27 GMT -5
D"A cow is unique and different that all the other cows each cow is an island to itself R" You are talking about limited freedom, boundaries set up by the Creator so the cow has limited freedom within the boundaries of the cow's design by God. That is not absolute freedom, but only limited freedom. OK – agree – a cow cannot decide to become a brain surgeon – correctThe cow is limited by his design – he does only what he does – and his motivational drive is (yester ra) – self-preservation – absolutely agree No cow ever changes himself into a pig or a bird An angel is limited by his design – he does what he was designed to do –and their motivational drive = (yester tov) - praises and serve No angel ever changes himself into a pig or a bird – or a god of evil The Beast, the serpent race, satanas – is made with some matter - and their motivational drive is (yester ra) – self-preservation – and they are the most cunning and devious of all the Beast of the field - absolutely agree Archon can shapeshift and can appear as anything they want you to see – but they cannot change themselves into an angel Man is 100% animal with (yester ra) just like a cow + 100% spirit with (yester tov) just like an angel This is what makes man special – we have the ability to choose No man has the ability to change himself into a pig or a bird or an angel or an archon Animals, angels, archons, men are all free and independent unique individualsD"Man is the creature that can choose R" Yes only within the boundaries of the Creator's design, limited freedom and limited independence. Correct no man can control his spirit – we cannot will our biology to life forever – we cannot will ourselves into heaven------------------------ D"The Received text is the same as the Tanak – this is correct R" so what is the debate over?Cool back to the beginning – It is absolute error to think that the Jews of the Time of Jesus had a one book BibleIt is absolute error to think that the Jews of the Time of Jesus had anything like a CANON TRUTH – they had a temple filled with scrolls they respected as instruction from their forefathers Not every temple even had the same scrolls – because they would share Why did GOD limit the tanak to a few books for Gentiles? Is there a principle for this in Scripture? yesGod did not edit anything – Rome assumed the authority – the edit occur by the self-appointed authority of Rome – the same authority that moved the Sabbath THIS IS THE POINT OF THE ROMAN EDITThat I choose to follow the limited tanak Correct you choose you follow only the Roman edit – and you are limitedGod has chosen to reduce the complexity of the Jewish tanak for Gentiles.... do you deny this too?So – your opinion – the Roman Catholic Church is the authority of God on earth – but you say you are not a catholic supporter – so confusingD"Yes – the tanak was found (most of it) in the Dead Sea Scrolls – along with Enoch, The War Scroll, the Book od Giants, the Book of Creation, etc, etc etc – 2000 document in total R" OK so we have 2000 books (in addition to the) tanak from Dead Sea Scrolls...now how do we decide which scrolls are holy and which we reject as non inspired?You allow Rome to decide for you – Catholic 66 authorized books – and 80 for them - and everything else is not to be considered – is heresy – is pagan – is off limits – ONLY ROMEThe Jews – kept it all – respected it all – but weighted the materialTorah – Gold / Tanak – Gold / Mishna – Gold Psalms of King David – Gold slipping into silver King Solomon – silver – 46 other book mentioned with in the ahl as credible sources of information All silver / bronze – Enoch – Jubilees If it is by a Rabbi – it is intelligent – keep it on the side – commentary – valuable – Kabbalah Ass Hole Jews who preach Talmud add the Talmud Weighting the material – another exampleCoptic canon - they have 2 canons – the major canon – and the broader canon The major canon looks very much like your OT/NT – the broader canon includes Enoch, Jubilees and many other titles – all untranslated in original form First century Christians – did not have a canon – they had whatever writings they could get their hands on Gnostic – Jews + Coptic + Russian orthodox + Syrian Christian + First Century Christian + Roman 1:19 + Psa 19:2 + science + history + RECOGNISE WHAT IS IN YOUR SIGHT! Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. YET – you love Don Patton and think him a Christian geneous Matthew and Luke - thats OK Numbers and Ezekiel - - just look the other wayDOUBLE STANDARD - Christian hypocrite RP"R" so if all the souls are in heaven as spirits why does Jesus need to come the second time to get the souls who are already in heaven?D" Scripture please – you always write so briefly – I don’t understandR" What? second coming? - to get the souls who are already in heaven?Still do not understandJews mock resurrection to Jews with questions of rising the dead... JUST STOP IT – you just make up shit – so you can argue against your own ignorancewww.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-resurrection-of-the-dead/Resurrection of the dead — t’chiyat hameitim in Hebrew — is a core doctrine of traditional Jewish theology. Ya I know – you have an excuse – you had a lousy Christian church educationWhy is that – what is an issue with just being honestMost jews have no concept of resurrection...Just keep preaching crap – see if it help your understandingD"Then man has no Free Will – we are just robots driven around by the HS But you refuse to tell me why your HS sins so much R" mock on. You can have God with you or not. Simple. But you say man is the HS empowered – how can God not be with you You say if God leave you – you dieSo confusing D"Jesus preached to those who died during the flood I do not have to make up a different explanation – I just believe scripture "R" SO you are happy to take an idiom and make it your own? I guess the difference between us is that I accept scriptureYou try to always change it somehow to mean something else – very Christian approach
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 13:47:25 GMT -5
D" No angel ever changes himself into a pig or a bird – or a god of evilR" You deny Scripture Eze 28:16 ...thou hast sinned: ....: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, Isn't that amazing Dave, the Hebrew word cherub is used here with chata.... yes an angel chose to sin. D" Archon can shapeshift and can appear as anything they want you to see – but they cannot change themselves into an angel
R: first let's consider some facts Dave, the term is Greek, archon, in English means "ruler". A Hebrew word for your Greek word "ruler" ? Ac 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. And the Hebrew word for "archon" is? Ex 6:12 And Moses spake before the LORD, saying, Behold, the children of Israel have not hearkened unto me; Ex 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst? Ex 18:13 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: Ex 18:25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. The hebrew word uses here is "sar". So it seems the Greek word "archon" may be the Hebrew word "sar", But I cannot find a direct cross reference. My point it this word "sar" does not denote a creature kind, it is a functional descriptor of any creature as a ruler. In fact Jesus is a "Sar" a ruler or Prince of earth. Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And Jesus the "sar" came to drive out the "archon" the "Sar" of this world. It's good to see both the Greek and the Hebrew words here. So if a "sar" is a prince of this world, the earth must be his kingdom. Strange you agree with this idea. But not the idea that this "Sar" or "archon" or "prince" was a "cherub who sinned". You deny Scripture. D" God did not edit anything – Rome assumed the authority – the edit occur by the self-appointed authority of Rome – the same authority that moved the SabbathAc 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; You deny this Scripture. I do not support Sunday as a Sabbath Day. I support Saturday as the true Sabbath. And the moral laws written by God cannot change. One day soon not only will the whole world get jabbed, but they will also keep Earth Day as a day of rest, fun-day on Sun-day, thus breaking the Sabbath commandment of God. Soon climate lock down days are coming. D" It is absolute error to think that the Jews of the Time of Jesus had anything like a CANON TRUTH – they had a temple filled with scrolls they respected as instruction from their forefathersR" nice. D" So – your opinion – the Roman Catholic Church is the authority of God on earth R" Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; This reduction was made by James, John, Peter and other disciples in a meeting, they were not Roman Catholics Dave? Are you OK? D "If it is by a Rabbi – it is intelligent – keep it on the side – commentary – valuable – Kabbalah Ass Hole Jews who preach Talmud add the TalmudR" Dave I have looked over your Gnostic writings, never did so before, and I reject the books, they are spurious at best, I commend you for picking good bits out, but they are not inspired. I do not need them really, I have enough in the limited tanak to be saved by God. D" YET – you love Don Patton and think him a Christian geneous Matthew and Luke - thats OK Numbers and Ezekiel - - just look the other way DOUBLE STANDARD - Christian hypocriteR" If you wish to discredit the Bible, go ahead and try.... so far you pick out historical stuff over Jesus when he was born,,,,, that is not discrediting the Bible, nor is Ezekiel over the mention of offering in a temple,.... is that the best you can come up with? If you have a video research science person better than Don Patton, present one....he follows truth as I see it. SO did Ron Wyatt... SO does Jonathon Sarfetti. www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-resurrection-of-the-dead/My computer is taking too long to download, may be failing again. Bother. www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/281644/jewish/Jewish-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htmThe body returns to the earth, dust to dust, but the soul returns to God who gave it. This doctrine of the immortality of the soul is affirmed not only by Judaism and other religions, but by many secular philosophers as well. Judaism, however, also believes in the eventual resurrection of the body, which will be reunited with the soul at a later time on a "great and awesome day of the Lord."R" OK so why does a spiirt which feels pain, and talks, repents, etc to be saved out of the body, return to it's body again at a later date? The human form of the righteous men of all ages, buried and long since decomposed, will be resurrected at God's will.
The most dramatic portrayal of this bodily resurrection is to be found in the "Valley of Dry Bones" prophecy in Ezekiel 37, read as the Haftorah on the Intermediate Sabbath of Passover. It recalls past deliverances and envisions the future redemption of Israel and the eventual quickening of the dead: When asked whether he had lost all of his other men on the battlefield, Titus gave assurance that his men were alive, but that they were still on combat duty. He had left them to stand guard over Jewish corpses in the fields of Jerusalem because he was sincerely afraid that their bodies would be resurrected and they would reconquer the Holy Land as they had promised.
There is a tendency to assume that the affirmation of a spiritual dimension in man must bring with it the corollary that his physical being is depreciated. Indeed, such has been the development of the body-soul duality in both the Christian tradition and in Oriental religions, and accounts for their glorification of asceticism.R" SO Jews believe in the duality of man, that man consists of a spirit and a body, both can leave each other and be reunited again at the resurrection. To the contrary, Judaism has always stressed that the body, as the soul, is a gift of God—indeed, that it belongs to God. Ha'neshamah lach ve'haguf pa'alach, the Jew declared, "The soul is yours, and the body is your handiwork."
R" so the soul is a gift from God, the body is ours to care for? D" I guess the difference between us is that I accept scripture You try to always change it somehow to mean something else – very Christian approachR" No Dave, if I see an idiom, I use Scripture to explain this, but you use your own human ideas and make a different view than Scripture does. Like your Jews you twist word meanings, saying the soul is same as spirit, and the spirit lives when you die. I do not play word games, nor do I reject Hebrew verses I don't like, and you take idioms you like and run with them. Shalom Hope my computer works today
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Post by Dave on Sept 11, 2021 17:32:10 GMT -5
D" No angel ever changes himself into a pig or a bird – or a god of evil R" You deny Scripture Eze 28 the Hebrew word cherub is used here with chataThat is all you have – it does not fit the rest of scripture – it is not validated by the rest of scripture You preach precept upon precept, line upon line – then discard it at will to protect your satanR: first let's consider some facts Dave, the term is Greek, archon, in English means "ruler". A Hebrew word for your Greek word "ruler" ? And the Hebrew word for "archon" is? The hebrew word uses here is "sar". So it seems the Greek word "archon" may be the Hebrew word "sar", But I cannot find a direct cross reference.OH I see – you think – but you have no evidenceI say the Hebrew word for archon – shedim and satyr ‘sar’ is also appropriate as in the prince of Persia (Dan 10)D"God did not edit anything – Rome assumed the authority – the edit occur by the self-appointed authority of Rome – the same authority that moved the Sabbath Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;Excuse me?Act 15:25 it seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul— Act 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah. Act 15:27 We therefore have sent to you Judah and Silas, who themselves will report to you the same things by word of mouth. Act 15:28 It seemed good to the Ruach ha-Kodesh and to us not to place on you any greater burden than these essentials: Act 15:29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. By keeping away from these things, you will do well. Shalom!” Act 15:30 So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch; and when they had gathered the whole group together, they delivered the letter. What does this passage have to do with Erasmus drafting the Textus Receptus?PLEASE TEACH ME THIS! – there might be a Nobel Prize in it for usYou deny this Scripture. I do not support Sunday as a Sabbath Day. I support Saturday as the true SabbathStill confused – you support Catholic doctrine – buy you don’t support Catholic doctrineD"It is absolute error to think that the Jews of the Time of Jesus had anything like a CANON TRUTH – they had a temple filled with scrolls they respected as instruction from their forefathers R" nice. D"So – your opinion – the Roman Catholic Church is the authority of God on earthR" Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; This reduction was made by James, John, Peter and other disciples in a meeting,ABSOLUTE RUBBISH – please have some respect for the word of God D"If it is by a Rabbi – it is intelligent – keep it on the side – commentary – valuable – Kabbalah Ass Hole Jews who preach Talmud add the Talmud R" Dave I have looked over your Gnostic writings, You are not capable of reading a first draft translating – a rough translation – you just stumble over words because you do not have a clue what it is like to translateIt is my mistake sharing them with you - in the beginning I thought you were a Christian - looking to take it to the next level Instead you are a SDA product that deny most of what Chriatians or Jews hold dear and true1Co 2:14 Now a natural man does not accept the things of the Ruach Elohim, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:14 But the naturall man perceaueth not the thynges of ye spirite of God, for they are foolyshenesse vnto hym: Neither can he knowe [them] because they are spiritually discerned. YOU DENY THE SPIRIT – how can you grasp the meaning of a book about spirituality? Or even scripture about spirituality?www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/281644/jewish/Jewish-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htmThe body returns to the earth, dust to dust, but the soul returns to God who gave it. This doctrine of the immortality of the soul is affirmed not only by Judaism and other religions, but by many secular philosophers as well. Judaism, however, also believes in the eventual resurrection of the body, which will be reunited with the soul at a later time on a "great and awesome day of the Lord." R" OK so why does a spiirt which feels pain, and talks, repents, etc to be saved out of the body, return to it's body again at a later date? First Gnostic answer – it is not a body like the one we have now – we will be changed Second Jewish answer - the same as the story of Eve – our job is to Jer 1:5 – witness God’s glory Who in heaven needs that message – we can only serve the Lord if we are here in the body New earth – new heaven serving the Lord 24/7 = heaven R" SO Jews believe in the duality of man, that man consists of a spirit and a body, both can leave each other and be reunited again at the resurrection.YES! – Body and spirit - animal biology with its (yester ra) + spirit/ soul and its (yester tov)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2021 16:13:40 GMT -5
D" OH I see – you think – but you have no evidence I say the Hebrew word for archon – shedim and satyr ‘sar’ is also appropriate as in the prince of Persia (Dan 10)R" I can accept that too, but not much about shedim or satyr in the OT. De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/demons-and-demonologyR" I will try to read some Jewish ideas." A demon is an evil spirit, or devil, in the ordinary English usage of the term. This definition is, however, only approximate. In polytheistic religions the line between gods and demons is a shifting one: there are both good demons and gods who do evil. In monotheistic systems, evil spirits may be accepted as servants of the one God, so that demonology is bound up with angelology and theology proper, or they may be elevated to the rank of opponents of God, in which case their status as diabolic powers differs from that of the demons in polytheism. R" You present a different view. The author here assumes polytheistic religions verses monotheistic religions. Does making GOD into ONE godhead of three members of the godhead, a polytheistic religion ? NO, not in my understanding, but Jews do not consider this idea. Does having ONE GOD design bad and demons as a part of His over design, acceptable picture of GOD as love? In my view of GOD, no, but Jews are happy that demons and bad things also come from God. Defense against evil spirits was a concern in Mesopotamia from earliest times, beginning with the Sumerians, to whom much of the terminology and praxis connected with demons may be traced. There is no qualitative difference between great gods and demons; one name for demon is "an evil god." Demons, however, have less power, though occasionally myths depict them as rebelling against the great gods, with some success. Incantations often list four, or even seven, classes of demons. Demons are messengers of the lord of the underworld, and march before him. They live in deserts and near graves, and many of them are ghosts, spirits of the dead, especially of those who died by violence or were not properly buried. Sickness may be thought of as caused by demonic possession, and some demons have the name of the specific disease they bring, thus "Headache," or "Fever." Lamashtu is the hag who kills children in the womb and newborn babies. Like many other demons, she is depicted as a composite monster. Lilitu, the Mesopotamian succubus, is mentioned once in the Bible as Lilith (Isa. 34:14; see below), and in later Jewish demonology. Good demons are mentioned much less frequently. R" You present a different view. But I note the Bible does mention these things. "Israel's official religion contrasts sharply with contemporary polytheisms in the role assigned to demons, which in the Bible is practically nil. Magic was prohibited among the Israelites from very early times, for already the oldest collection of laws, the Book of the Covenant, contains the command: "You shall not tolerate a sorceress" (Ex. 22:17 [Eng. 22:18]; cf. Deut. 18:10–12), and Saul put the practitioners of necromancy out of the land (I Sam. 28:3). Since much of pagan magic was protective – intended to keep demons away or to expel them – obviously Israel's religion aimed at a very radical extirpation of traffic with demons. Calamities and illnesses were not from demons but from the Lord. "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Amos 3:6). Although God does not always accomplish His will immediately, but uses angels and spirits as agents, it is ordinarily made explicit that the spirits are under His control. The evil spirit which troubles Saul is "an evil spirit from the Lord" (I Sam. 16:14).
R" You present a different view. God is the author of all bad and good spirits? I do not have this view. " Therefore, one must not overestimate the importance of the numerous small traces of belief in demons which survive in the Bible, or underestimate the difficulties involved in interpreting them. Most of the passages in question are poetic, and it is often impossible to be certain whether the demon named is part of living religious belief, or only part of traditional literary language. Just as some Mesopotamian demons have names which are also common nouns, so in biblical cases like dever and mavet (mawet; see below) it is hard to be sure when these are proper names and when not. R" We have become learned to accept poetry as symbolic and other writings as fact. So sad. Foreign gods are called shedim (Deut. 32:17; Ps. 106:37; cf. I Cor. 10:20), rendered "demons" or "devils" in most translations. The word is related to Akkadian šêdu ("demon"; good or evil).SEʿIRIM ("hairy demons, satyrs") is also applied contemptuously to foreign deities (Lev. 17:7; II Chron. 11:15). These creatures haunt ruins, along with Lilith (Isa. 13:21; 34:14).
LILITH (Isa. 34:14; ultimately from Sumerian lil, "air," not Heb. layl(ah), "night") was originally a succubus, believed to cohabit with mortals, but in the Arslan Tash incantation quoted above she is identified with the child-stealing demon, a character she retains in later folklore. The tradition that the name means "screech-owl" (in so many translations) reflects a very ancient association of birds, especially owls, with the demonic.
MAVET (Mawet), the ordinary Hebrew word for death, is also the proper name of a Canaanite underworld god (Mot), the enemy of Baal in a Ugaritic epic. The proper name, not the common noun, should probably be understood in Isaiah 28:15, 18: "We have made a covenant with Death," and Jeremiah 9:20 [Eng. 9:21]: "For Death is come up into our windows" (cf. Hos. 13:14; Job 18:13, "the firstborn of Death"; 28:22).
RESHEPH is another major god of the Canaanite religion who becomes a demonic figure in biblical literature. Resheph is known as the god of plague over much of the ancient Near East, in texts and artistic representations spanning more than a millennium from 1850 B.C.E. to 350 B.C.E. In Habakkuk 3:5, YHWH on the warpath is said to be preceded and followed by respectively Dever and Resheph. (This is similar to the picture of two divine attendants who escort major gods in ancient myths.) Just as some other names of deities are used as common nouns in biblical Hebrew (Dagon (dagon, "grain"); Ashtaroth (ashtarot, "increase [of the flock]"), etc.) so Reshef (reshef) has come to mean simply "plague" (Deut. 33:29; Ps. 78:48), and the fiery darts of the bow (Ps. 76:4 [Eng. 76:3]; Song 8:6), apparently from the common association of plagueand arrows.
DEVER ("Pestilence") is the other demonic herald who marches with YHWH to battle (Hab. 3:5). Dever is also mentioned in Psalms 91:5–6: "Thou shalt not be afraid for the Terror (Paḥad) by night; Nor for the Arrow (Ḥeẓ) that flieth by day; Nor for the Pestilence (Dever) that walketh in the darkness; Nor for the Destruction (Ketev) that wasteth at noonday." Not only Dever but also the other words italicized above have been plausibly identified as names of demons. The "Arrow" is a familiar symbol in folklore, for disease or sudden pain, and Ketev (Qetev; cf. Deut. 32:24; Isa. 28:2; Hos. 13:14) is in this instance the personification of overpowering noonday heat, known also to Greek and Roman demonology.
AZAZEL (ʿAzʾazel) occurs in the ritual for the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:8, 10, 26). Aaron casts lots over two goats, and the one "for ʿAzʾazel" is presented alive before the Lord, and then released into the wilderness. The ancient Greek and Latin versions understood ʿAzʾazel as "goat that departs," hence "the scapegoat" of some English versions. Most of the rabbinic commentators and some moderns take Azazel as the name of the place to which the goat is driven. The great majority of moderns regard Azazel as the personal name of a demon thought to live in the wilderness.
The vampire may be mentioned in Proverbs 30:15: "The alukah (ʿaluqah) hath two daughters, crying, 'Give, Give.'" Hebrew ʿaluqah may simply mean "leech," but since ʿaulaq occurs in Arabic literature as a name of a vampire, this fabulous creature and her two daughters may be referred to in this rather difficult passage.
R" These demon/spirits are mentioned in Scripture, but who or what are they? Where do they come from? A great change had taken place in angelology and demonology, at least in certain circles within Judaism, by the last centuries B.C.E. In this period the religion, while safeguarding its monotheistic character in various ways, nevertheless took on many traits of a dualistic system in which God and the forces of good and truth were opposed in heaven and on earth by powerful forces of evil and deceit. This seems to have been under the influence of Persian religion, with its opposition of Ormuzd the good god and Ahriman (Angra Mainyu) the evil god, but at the same time Jewish dualism drew on older, native resources in constructing a more elaborate demonology. Ancient mythological themes, and figures from the Bible only potentially demonic, like Satan, were drawn in to fill out the enlarged conception of the role of evil spirits in the cosmos. It is characteristic of this period that the evil spirits are led by a prince, often called Belial but also Mastemah, Satan , or other names. The spirits of good and evil also struggled within the human soul, for in this period the role of demons is often conceived of as that of tempting men to evil rather than of inflicting physical harm. As a result, in many passages it is difficult to say whether "spirit" refers to a demon external to man or to a trait within the human soul. Belial (or Beliar, a corruption of the original form) is the most common name for the leader of the demons in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and occurs in other intertestamental literature and in II Corinthians 6:15. Belial (Heb. Beliyya'al) is a Hebrew compound word which etymologically means "no benefit" or "no thriving" and in liberal usage is often equivalent to "scoundrel." But already in the Bible "streams of Beliyya'al" means "streams of destruction" (II Sam. 22:5; Ps. 18:5). In the intertestamental literature Belial is "the spirit of perversion, the angel of darkness, the angel of destruction" and other spirits are subject to him. Mastemah, which as a common noun means approximately "enmity, opposition" in Hosea 9:7, 8 and in some passages in the Five Scrolls, is a demon "Prince Mastemah" in Jubilees (11:5, 11; 17:16; et al.), and perhaps also in the Damascus Document (16:5). Watchers (Aram. ʿirin) are a type of angel mentioned in Daniel 4:10, 14, 20. To this class the intertestamental literature assigns the angels who, according to Genesis 6:2, 4, cohabited with women before the flood and fathered the race of giants (Test. Patr., Reu. 5:6–7; Test. Patr., Napht. 3:5; cf. Genesis Apocryphon, ii 2:1, 16). Asmodeus (Tobit 3:8, 17) is a demon who had slain the first seven husbands of Sarah, who becomes the wife of Tobias son of Tobit.
R" Clash words with words until the reader is overwhemed in confusion. This is a masonic principle designed to get people overwhelmed and angry, clash the Bible with the Bible, the limited tanak with a broader tanak, with a Bible version with another Bible version, so in the end the reader give up. Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. So the common person doesn't read, and so religion becomes the culture under it's leader. New Testament demonology in part reflects contemporary popular belief, which turns up also in rabbinic literature, and in part the dualism attested in the sectarian literature from Qumran. Demons are called "unclean spirits" or "evil spirits," as in rabbinic literature. They are believed to inhabit waste places. Possession by demons causes, or is associated with, various sicknesses, especially those in which there is a perversion of the human personality, so that the demon, not the man himself, directs his acts and speech (Mark 1:23, 26; 9:17–29). The story of how Jesus cured a demoniac by sending a legion of unclean spirits into a herd of swine (Matt. 8:28–34; Mark 5:1–20; Luke 8:26–39) illustrates vividly the persistence of very ancient popular belief, as does the parable of Matthew 12:43–45, in which the unclean spirit after wandering through the wilderness takes seven devils with him. On the other hand, in the New Testament lesser demons have little independent personality or power, but are subject to a prince, Beelzebul or Satan, and the demonic is often presented, not as something occasional and relatively harmless, but as a cosmic reality of great importance, the enemy of God and man (Eph. 6:12). Beelzebul (Beelzebub) is a name applied to the chief demon by both Jesus and his opponents (Matt. 10:25; 12:24, 27; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15–19). The correct explanation of the name is much disputed, and new evidence from Ugarit has not completely cleared up the etymology. The spelling Beelzebub reflects identification of Beelzebul with Baal-Zebub, god of Ekron (II Kings 1:2). Possibly there were two different original forms, Beelzebul meaning "Baal is prince" or "Lord of the shrine," and Beelzebub "Lord of flies" (cf. Ugaritic il dbb [in Gordon, Textbook, ʿnt 3:43]). References are made to a belief in demonology during the tannaitic period. The mazzikim ("harmful spirits") are said to have been created on the eve of the Sabbath of creation (Avot 5:6) but this late reference is the only one made to demons in the entire Mishnah. Among the accomplishments of both Hillel (Sof. 16:9) and his disciple R. Johanan b. Zakkai was their knowledge of "the speech of the shedim" ("devils," Suk. 28a). The latter also gave the analogy of a ru'ah tezazit ("the demon of madness") entering a man and being exorcised, in order to explain to a heathen the anomaly of the laws of the red heifer , although he agreed with his wondering disciples that it was but "putting him off with a straw" and that he himself did not accept it (PR 40a; Num. R. 19:4). Although these statements refer to Erez Israel, the Jerusalem Talmud is markedly free from demonology, and in fact mentions only three general names for them – mazzikim, shedim, and ruhot. A passage in the Babylonian Talmud specifically states that various beliefs connected with demons which were current in Babylon were ignored in Erez Israel. Whereas in Erez Israel they translated shiddah and shiddot (Eccles. 2:8) as "carriages," in Babylon they rendered them "male and female demons" (Git. 68a). The Palestinian R. Johanan stated that the mazzikim which used to hold sway in the world disappeared with the erection of the sanctuary in the wilderness (Num. R. 12:30). Demonology, however, is more prominent in the Palestinian Midrashim than in the Jerusalem Talmud. On the other hand the Babylonian Talmud is replete with demonology, obviously under the influence of the belief in demons which was widespread in Babylonia. In fact, in a responsum (published in Lewin, Ozar, p. 20; cf. Assaf, Geonim, p. 262) Hai Gaon states that the belief in demons was widespread in Sura , since it was near to (old) Babylonia and to the house of Nebuchadnezzar, whereas in the more distant Pumbedita they were far from such ideas. The Babylonian Jews lived in a world which was filled with demons and spirits, malevolent and sometimes benevolent, who inhabited the air, the trees, water, roofs of houses, and privies. They are invisible; "If the eye could see them no one could endure them. They surround one on all sides. They are more numerous than humans, each person has a thousand on his left and ten thousand on his right" and they are responsible for various inconveniences. Yet, by taking certain steps, in the morning one can see their footprints in the shape of those of a cock (Ber. 6a). Whereas in the Kabbalah there is an attempt to systematize demonology (see below) there is no sign of such an attempt in the talmudic literature. The material is vast and inchoate, scattered in profusion and without system throughout the whole Talmud and in the Midrashim. The following details, taken except where otherwise indicated from one passage of the Talmud (Pes. 110a–112b), may be taken as indicative.Asmodeus is the king of the demons. The queen is Agrath bat Mahalath , who has 10,000 demon attendants, each of whom can do harm. She haunts the air. Originally she held sway at all times, but Hanina b. Dosa, threatening to ban her from populated areas, relented in answer to her pleas and permitted her to be active on Wednesday nights and Sabbath eves. The Babylonian amora Abbaye later banished her from populated areas but she still lurks in the narrow alleys. Doing things in pairs, especially drinking an even number of cups, invites the malevolent activities of demons; an exception is the four cups enjoined in the seder on Passover for which reason that occasion is called "a night of guarding" (Ex. 12:42), i.e., of protection from demons. Demons are especially harmful in and around palm trees, and their malevolent attention is invited by easing oneself between a palm tree and the wall, by passing between two palms, or by sleeping in the shadow of a palm tree. The demon Palga will affect a man easing himself on the stump of a palm tree; the demon Zereda him who leans his head on one. In general one should avoid many-branched or prickly trees, but there are special trees which are the favorite haunts of the spirits. In the caperbush there resides the eyeless Ruhe. Every sorb tree harbors demons in its shade and is especially dangerous when it is in the vicinity of a town. At least 60 demons haunt it, and they can be exorcised only by a "60 demon amulet." Demons called Rishpe live in the roots of trees. The demon Ketev Meriri (Deut. 32:34) is active in the mornings. It was seen by Abbaye when he was in the company of Papa and Huna b. Joshua. In the afternoon, its place is taken by Ketev Yashud Ẓohorayim (Ps. 91:6) which looks like a goat's horns, and has wings. Both these demons are particularly active from the 1st to the 16th of Tammuz.
According to the Midrash, however, Ketev Meriri is active during the period of mourning from the 17th of Tammuz to the Ninth of Av, between the fourth and ninth hours of the day. As late as the 13th century Zedekiah Anav reports that in Rome pupils were not punished during these days and hours because of Ketev Meriri which held sway then (Shibbolei ha-Leket, 1:203). It is covered with scales and hairs; it has one eye in its heart and rolls like a ball between the sunlight and the shade. Whoever sees it, collapses and falls to the ground (Mid. Ps. 91:3; from the context however it appears that the reference should be to the Ketev Yashud Ẓohorayim). R. Joseph and R. Papa had friendly conversation with a demon called Joseph.
Demons are prone to infest food and drink left under the bed, and one should refrain from drinking water on Wednesday and Sabbath eve or from pools and rivers at night.
R" A different view. Again make lots of words, big words, with big meanings. The demon Shabriri ("blindness" – cf. Targum Onkelos, Gen. 19:11) wreaks harm on those so doing, but an incantation, consisting of an abracadabra whereby the word is repeated, successively deducting one letter from the word (Shabriri, briri, riri, etc.), is an effective antidote.
R" Weird, repeating words... Solomon made use of male and female demons to build the Temple (Git. 68b) and to bring him water from India with which he was able to grow all kinds of exotic plants not otherwise growing in Erez Israel (Eccles. R. to 2:5). R" Can this be proven, or is this a writing by humans not inspired? Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Traditions of men. Scholars were immune to the evil machinations of demons while they were engaged in study, but Rashi explains a passage of the Talmud to mean that, on the contrary, they are in need of special protection since the demons are envious of them (Ber. 62a). Psalm 91 is called "the Psalm of [protection against harmful] visitations." Moses is stated to have recited it when he ascended Mount Sinai "because of his fear of mazzikim… and angels of destruction." It is enjoined to be recited "because the whole world is full of evil spirits and mazzikim" (Tanh., Mishpatim, end) and the midrashic interpretations of this Psalm are a veritable treasure store of demonology lore (e.g., Mid. Ps. 91; Tanh., Mishpatim, end; Num. R. 12:3–4). The power of demons over man and his helplessness in face of it is illustrated by the fact that the talmudic metaphor for an act performed through force majeure is "as though a devil [shed] had compelled him" (e.g., RH 28a). The talmudic commentators and codifiers accepted the belief in demons; Maimonides alone opposed it.
R" Some rabbi have different opinions? Traditions of men? The kabbalists made use of all the motifs current in the Talmud and Midrash with regard to demons. New elements were developed or added, mainly in two directions: (1) the kabbalists attempted to systematize demonology so that it would fit into their understanding of the world and thus to explain demonology in terms derived from their understanding of reality; (2) new and varied elements were added from external sources, mainly from medieval Arabic demonology, from Christian demonology, and from the popular beliefs of the Germans and Slavs.The works of the kabbalists also contain contradictory conceptions of the demons and the power of imagination. Traditions of the past as well as the cultural environment and the intellectual outlook of each individual kabbalist contributed toward the diversification of their beliefs. The ideas of the early Spanish kabbalists on this subject were formulated clearly in Nahmanides ' commentary on Leviticus 17:7 and their influence is visible in all subsequent literature. In Nahmanides' opinion the demons (shedim) are to be found in waste (shedudim), ruined, and cold places such as in the North. They were not created out of the four elements but only out of fire and air. They have subtle bodies, imperceptible by the human senses, and these subtle bodies allow them to fly through fire and air. Because they are composed of different elements, they come under the laws of creation and decay and they die like human beings. Their sustenance is derived from water and fire, from odors and saps; hence necromancers burned incense to demons. Despite the element of subtle fire which they contain, they are surrounded by a coldness that frightens off the exorcisers (this detail is singled out only in later sources). By means of their flight through air they are able to approach the "princes" of the zodiac who dwell in the atmosphere and thus hear predictions of the near but not the distant future.R" Yes Jews have different views. Overwhelming to consider these views. Masonic principle, make universities to compound the simple Bible schools, make deeper meanings, more complexity removes the faith of the simple. Ps 131:1 ... neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. 2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child Keep things simple but not simpler, a saying by my second favorite Jew, Albert Einstein --------------------------- D" What does this passage have to do with Erasmus drafting the Textus Receptus? PLEASE TEACH ME THIS! – there might be a Nobel Prize in it for usR" OH, so show me a BIble verse that the Jews have the key to salvation, that salvation comes from following the Jewish culture, Jewish thought and all of the Jewish tanak, not just the limited tanak? PLEASE TEACH ME THIS! – there might be a Nobel Prize in it for us ? (note I split Jewish from Hebrewish) Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. SO if I am grafted in, do I become Jewish or Hebrew? Is there a difference? Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. What are other folds of sheep Jesus brings in? D "Still confused – you support Catholic doctrine R" Sabbath on Saturday is not a Catholic doctrine Dave. What are you saying? All churches have some good things in them, but not all churches support Jesus truth fully. "R" Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; RP" This reduction was made by James, John, Peter and other disciples in a meeting,D" ABSOLUTE RUBBISH – please have some respect for the word of GodR" Oh? This meeting is a fact Dave. They decided to reduce the requirements of Gentile converts becoming Hebrew supporters of God in Jewish churches. Such converts already knew of Sabbath laws, and other rules. D" It is my mistake sharing them with you - in the beginning I thought you were a Christian - looking to take it to the next level Instead you are a SDA product that deny most of what Chriatians or Jews hold dear and trueR" Perhaps it is also my mistake making 1400 posts with you. I have learned it is impossible to sway a person's religion to other ideas based on Scripture. People do not change their world view. And evidence does not make them change their world view. Strange we study the same Scripture and have differences of world view. D"1Co 2:14 But the naturall man perceaueth not the thynges of ye spirite of God, for they are foolyshenesse vnto hym: Neither can he knowe [them] because they are spiritually discerned. YOU DENY THE SPIRIT – how can you grasp the meaning of a book about spirituality? Or even scripture about spirituality?D" I could quote the same text on you Dave. You do not read the words in the spirit of God, but through Jewish or Gnostic eyes, but not the eyes of the Lord. It is His spirit we are to obtain, not our own spirit, you claim we have forgotten or is some part of us naturally. It is God's spirit we are to sow, take on board and become like Him. God is a spirit, not man, and it is His spirit that comes into us. But you deny the spirit of GOD and uphold the teaching that man is his own spirit, and this spirit is what we are to uphold before God doing yester tov. The Bible teaches are are saved only by Jesus spirit coming into us, and it is his spirit alone that save us, reproduced in us by our will desiring the seed of Jesus in us, His spirit becomes my spirit. So we have a different world view on the term spirit even. D" First Gnostic answer – it is not a body like the one we have now – we will be changedR" How strange than? SO the recorded character/personality of the body by the DNA is gone than, the spirit only is updated? Please explain? what is a spirit? does it talk and think and develop memories of character without the need for a body? so why introduce the body than? You talk in riddles.... D" YES! – Body and spirit - animal biology with its (yester ra) + spirit/ soul and its (yester tov)R" OK explain how a spirit records it's character development of love? And your use of Hebrew words is mixed, you have no word for spirit, you have two "nephesh and ruwach" Where-as I have one word for "spiirt" for man "nashamah" And for GOD "ruwach" And a different word for GOD in partnership to man, "nephesh". My logic is so much easier to fathom. You speak in riddles. However I do understand your plight over Scripture: Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Here both ruwach words is used for "HS-ruwach" and "human-ruwach". SO I understand your confusion: I would translate this as Ro 8:16 The ruwach itself beareth witness with our nashamah, that we are the children of God: However the ruwach also administrates the nashamah in mankind, so the verse is OK as it is written. However I get your confusion . Shalom PS - my computer is writing/ editing OK for now. I also note that under Bio Security Act 2015 in Australia no business cannot enforce humans to wear a mask or enforce a jab. Not allowed under Federal laws. Violates the privacy Act under federal law also. Strange how gov is playing game with us, testing us? How is the USA going with the corruption voting for Trump in the courts these days? What about Biden mandatory jabs? How is this possible? Not possible in Australia unless they give you a bio-security control order. Shalom
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