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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 15:07:01 GMT -5
D" you present only ½ of the theology?
R What are you smarter than Einstein, so now you choose NOT to follow Him?
Einstein says GOD does not create RA
Just as God does not create cold
Just as God does not create darkness
Just as God does not create RA
I suggest you watch the video several times.
D" God did create the ra – Scripture says this plainly
Previous Rob Post" The teacher would reply, well if God created everything. Than God created evil. Therefore GOD is evil, and a fairy tale and not worth following.
How can you answer the German Teacher Dave? You have no satisfactory answer, unlike Einstein.
R You ignored the vital question of this German teacher?
D"Man is the doer of the ra – the evil – not its creator
R Didn't God create archon? Doesn't God create RA? Than God is responsible for RA. Just as guilty as doing the RA Himself. I never buy your God has a department for doing evil, that makes God equally as guilty.
I suggest you watch the video several times. Because this 10 year old student knows better.
Does cold exist? example of natural ra Does darkness exist? example of natural ra Does evil exist? example of what we humans call moral ra
D" And then man enter this physical creation filled with natural ra + the choshek from Gen 1:2
R You are disagreeing with Einstein
If cold doesn't normally exist, but now does exist, something wrong has happened.
If choshek doesn't normally exist, but now does exist, something wrong has happened.
If RA doesn't normally exist, but now does exist, something wrong has happened.
Sin, relationships have changed.
The first change in relationship changes recorded in Scripture is with angels.
The second change in relationship changes recorded in Scripture is with humans.
SHalom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 15:52:53 GMT -5
Greetings Dave\ \ D" Question – can God make a dysfunction (your term) creature - evidently But again – you think it a dysfunction to do the function you were assigned by God
R You didn't watch the video, like I asked you to
(1) Does cold (a natural ra term humans invented) exist? Professor said yes, Einstein says no Dave would say yes too.
(2) Does choshek (a natural ra term found in torah) exist? Professor said yes, Einstein says no Dave would say yes too.
(3) Does RA exist? Professor said yes, Einstein says no. Dave would say yes too. Are you better than Einstein? What is Einstein saying?
If cold does not normally exist, but now does, some relationship with God changed? If choshek does not normally exist, but now does, some relationship with God changed? If RA does not normally exist, but now does, some relationship with God changed?
Torah calls this change sin.
You are saying you are better than Einstein, God would not create a dysfunctional creature intentionally, such a thing would change the nature of GOD.
Hence the Professor's point:
"The teacher would reply, well if God created everything. Than God created evil. Therefore GOD is evil, and a fairy tale and not worth following.
How can you answer the German Teacher Dave? You have no satisfactory answer, unlike Einstein." You ignored my question, the professors vital question?
Einstein says GOD did not create evil.
God does not create relationships either. So if relationships change, it's not God's fault.
Previous Post you did not answer" So ALbert Einstein is saying evil is just a dysfunctional relationship creatures have with GOD, BUT GOD; who has to be by definition, perfectly functional in relationship.
I cannot see how GOD can create evil or anything with RA in it, as you claim. Please discuss the video and how you disagree with Einstein on this.
You did NOT do this.
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D" Jude and 2 Pe 2:4 - called them sinning angels – why didn’t Enoch call them sinning angels – why doesn’t the Torah say the sinning angels father the Nephilim – R Again you are not answering my question.
Instead you write something that directly conflicts what Enoch wrote:
"why didn’t Enoch call them sinning angels"?
2. And the angels (cherub) , the children of the heaven (bane- elohiym) , saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.'
You say the bane-elohiym are the fathered from the First Archon... I quote" Yes – the bane elohiym are the offspring of the First archon and therefore also called archon" BUT that is NOT what Enoch is saying.
"2. And the angels (cherub) , the children of the heaven (bane- elohiym) , saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: "
Enoch calls the bane-elohiym cherub angels,
So your Gnostic accounts do NOT agree with each other.
D" Question – can God make a dysfunction (your term) creature - evidently R according to Einstein, this answer is NO.
D" Question – can God make a dysfunction (your term) creature - evidently R a cop out Dave. If God has created a department for doing evil, GOD is equally guilty for allowing that evil to occur. Einstein says evil does not exist, as cold does not exist, or darkness does not exist, clearly these things exist in the minds of humans, so what is Einstein saying? A relationship to GOD changed.
God does not create relationship.
SO if a bad relationship happens, it's not God's fault.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 30, 2021 16:45:21 GMT -5
Previous Rob Post" The teacher would reply, well if God created everything. Than God created evil. Therefore GOD is evil, and a fairy tale and not worth following.
How can you answer the German Teacher Dave? You have no satisfactory answer, unlike Einstein.
My answer – if ra exist – then God made it
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.
Rev 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, For You created all things, and because of Your will they existed and were created!”
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Rom 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. Col 1:17 He exists before everything, and in Him all holds together.
1Co 11:12 For just as the woman came from the man, so also the man comes through the woman—but all things are from God.
Exo 20:11 For in six days Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day.
Rev 10:6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it,
Isa 45:18 For thus says Adonai—He is God who fashioned the heavens, who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it desolate but formed it to be inhabited—“I am Adonai—there is no other!”
How can you answer the German Teacher Dave? You have no satisfactory answer, unlike Einstein. My answer – if ra exist – then God made it There is no second creator
And I didn’t even use Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
How can you answer the German Teacher Dave? Jer 10:11 Thus you will say to them: “The gods—which did not make the heavens and the earth—will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
Follow scripture – follow the Lord Do not follow the precepts of men – even if they have a PhD or did some lengthy writings (Ellen White) Mormonism – sounds Christian – looks Christian – and even smells Christian But they believe that your satan and Christ are twin brothers Jehovah Witness- Christ has already returned – this is heaven – enjoy it while you can animal Uniterains – say no virgin birth and no resurrection Catholics say – the Pope is Christ on earth (Vicar – the host for the spirit of Christ)
Your kid said – there is no cold only the absence of heat – Correct But he did not elaborate explain that cooling is a process called – entropy
Darkness is just the absences of light – Correct But he did not elaborate explain that the process of casting a shadow (The energy carried by the light is slowly diminished – wanes – until it is gone) is called entropy
Man once was in full awareness of God – man was taught the Torah in the womb by God – after birth God continues to commune with us as newborns – until our yester ra asserts itself However – walking and thinking with yester ra – we forget who we are (entropy of memory)
Question – what is the difference between a happy smiling baby – a sweet innocent little girl – and cold hearted serial killer Answer – the amount of yester ra in their lives and the depth at which they have denied their own yester tov (soul)
Is what your kid says about science correct? – sure on the surface (without a detailed and elaborate explanation of the process)
Is what the teacher said about God correct? – “…if God created everything. Than God created evil. Therefore GOD is evil, and a fairy tale and not worth following.” No Robert – he is presenting his own version of his own doctrine That is only true – if you overlook the bulk of scripture
I know satan would love it if everyone believed as the teacher This is a direct attack upon Catholic feel Goodism – God can only create tov (Good) The legacy of the Roman edit IF there is a God – He is weak and ineffective – or he just does not care – because of all the ra in this world (of archon and nature) - why does little Jimmy have to die – why does bad shit happen to good people – doubt – doubt – doubt
Judaism teaches – ra = the result of wrongful living Jewish definition of wrongful living – not walking with the Lord
Pro 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent with discipline. Your God of Love
Heb 12:6 because Adonai disciplines the one He loves and punishes every son He accepts.” Your God of love
Psa 119:75 I know, Adonai, Your judgments are just. In faithfulness You have afflicted me. God does it – your God of Love
Pro 3:11 My son, never despise Adonai’s discipline or dread His correction. God’s discipline – from your God of Love
Pro 15:5 A fool despises his father’s discipline, but one who accepts reproof is smart. God’s discipline – from your God of Love
Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the one whom God corrects, so do not despise the discipline of Shaddai. God’s discipline – from your God of Love – via the HS
Rom 11:22 (KJV)Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: …
To condemn a man or any being to eternal death = ra - a sin Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
But when God does it – it is termed righteous Judgment The Tov and the Ra
There is only one Creator - and I never had to invent a satan to be responsible for the ra involved God does it - by the hand of God
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: YES! - God has a staff for that most of the time it is just the archon that make life hard - sometimes it is a satan sent by God's will - in obedience to God - to test / correct / discipline
AND 1 Kings 22 tells us that sometimes (maybe all the time) the decieving spirit (satan) is a volenteer facilitating God's Will
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Post by Dave on Jan 30, 2021 17:02:29 GMT -5
D" Jude and 2 Pe 2:4 - called them sinning angels – why didn’t Enoch call them sinning angels – why doesn’t the Torah say the sinning angels father the Nephilim – R Again you are not answering my question.
Instead you write something that directly conflicts what Enoch wrote:
"why didn’t Enoch call them sinning angels"? You make my point perfectly clear - but refuse to see it - because you choose not to The archon are describe by different vocabulary by different authors
Paul calls them Powers and Principalities (archie) - why doesn't Paul just say sinning angels - or just say angels - or just say fallen angels - and in your case - Paul could have just said satan and be done with it
You make my point perfectly clear - but refuse to see it The archon are describe by different vocabulary by different authors
How many different names and identifieirs are there for God? Many > 50 probably - are you confuse as to the real God? Is the real God Jehovah or YHWY - or the Father Creator - or the Lord are you confuse as to the real God? - or do all this different vocabulary confuse you?
You stumble over words - just because you choose to
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 19:13:27 GMT -5
OH, let's see if what you say makes sense.
The only three names of GOD are these, from Job, the oldest Hebrew we have, long before Jews wrote anything,
SO what is written in Job?
elohiym
eloah
shadday
el
YHWH
yashuah
That's it as far as I know.
Now how many are written in one verse? Three
Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD <Y@hovah> answered <`anah> Job <'Iyowb>, and said <'amar>, 2 Shall he that contendeth <riyb> with the Almighty <Shadday> instruct <yiccowr> him? he that reproveth <yakach> God <'elowahh>, let him answer <`anah> it.
YHWH, shadday and eloah.
Why do you say it's hard to follow?
DO these three names also written by John the revelator?
Re 5:1 ¶ And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside,
Here JOhn is describing Hebrew writing, proof John wrote Hebrew, not Greek.
Re 4:8 ¶ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
What Hebrew is here: YHWH, elohiym, shadday.
Now something happens in the NT, as Paul writes:
Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
The elohiym is renamed as a new family of elohiym.
Now we have
YHWH-Yashuah also known as YHWH-Jesus eloah known now as ab shadday known as ruwach
D" do all this different vocabulary confuse you?
R I do not see different vocabulary... only the same Hebrew words.
Sure there are many functional descriptors of elohiym, but Job cuts through the confusion.
JOb is our oldest Hebrew scroll, remember, written by Moses maybe, or recorded by Moses.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 31, 2021 1:07:04 GMT -5
The only three names of GOD are these, from Job, the oldest Hebrew we have, long before Jews wrote anything,
elohiym eloah shadday
Now how many are written in one verse? Three YHWH, shadday and eloah.
DO these three names also written by John the revelator? What Hebrew is here: YHWH, elohiym, shadday.
YHWH-Yashuah also known as YHWH-Jesus eloah known now as ab shadday known as ruwach
R I do not see different vocabulary... only the same Hebrew words.I am proud of you – you have correctly identified the TrinityYep – you see three words and therefore you insist that there are 3 gods working together on consertThere has to be three gods so love can exist between them And there has to be 3 gods because there are three words – the ab cannot be the shadday Below is a list of the Biblical names of God found in the Old and New Testament.Advocate – 1 John 2:1 Almighty – Revelation 1:8 Alpha – Revelation 1:8 Amen – Revelation 3:14 Angel of the Lord – Genesis 16:7 Anointed One – Psalm 2:2 Apostle – Hebrews 3:1 Author and Perfecter of our Faith – Hebrews 12:2 Beginning – Revelation 21:6 Bishop of Souls – 1 Peter 2:25 Branch – Zechariah 3:8 Bread of Life – John 6:35,48 Bridegroom – Matthew 9:15 Carpenter – Mark 6:3 Chief Shepherd – 1 Peter 5:4 The Christ – Matthew 1:16 Comforter – Jeremiah 8:18 Consolation of Israel – Luke 2:25 Cornerstone – Ephesians 2:20 Dayspring – Luke 1:78 Day Star – 2 Peter 1:19 Deliverer – Romans 11:26 Desire of Nations – Haggai 2:7 Emmanuel – Matthew 1:23 End – Revelation 21:6 Everlasting Father – Isaiah 9:6 Faithful and True Witness – Revelation 3:14 First Fruits – 1 Corinthians 15:23 Foundation – Isaiah 28:16 Fountain – Zechariah 13:1 Friend of Sinners – Matthew 11:19 Gate for the Sheep – John 10:7 Gift of God – 2 Corinthians 9:15 God – John 1:1 Glory of God – Isaiah 60:1 Good Shepherd – John 10:11 Governor – Matthew 2:6 Great Shepherd – Hebrews 13:20 Guide – Psalm 48:14 Head of the Church – Colossians 1:18 High Priest – Hebrews 3:1 Holy One of Israel – Isaiah 41:14 Horn of Salvation – Luke 1:69 I Am – Exodus 3:14 Jehovah – Psalm 83:18 Jesus – Matthew 1:21 King of Israel – Matthew 27:42 King of Kings – 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16 Lamb of God – John 1:29 Last Adam – 1 Corinthians 15:45 Life – John 11:25 Light of the World – John 8:12; John 9:5 Lion of the Tribe of Judah – Revelation 5:5 Lord of Lords – 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16 Master – Matthew 23:8 Mediator – 1 Timothy 2:5 Messiah – John 1:41 Mighty God – Isaiah 9:6 Morning Star – Revelation 22:16 Nazarene – Matthew 2:23 Omega – Revelation 1:8 Passover Lamb – 1 Corinthians 5:7 Physician – Matthew 9:12 Potentate – 1 Timothy 6:15 Priest – Hebrews 4:15 Prince of Peace – Isaiah 9:6 Prophet – Acts 3:22 Propitiation – I John 2:2 Purifier – Malachi 3:3 Rabbi – John 1:49 Ransom – 1 Timothy 2:6 Redeemer – Isaiah 41:14 Refiner – Malachi 3:2 Refuge – Isaiah 25:4 Resurrection – John 11:25 Righteousness – Jeremiah 23:6 Rock – Deuteronomy 32:4 Root of David – Revelation 22:16 Rose of Sharon – Song of Solomon 2:1 Ruler of God’s Creation – Revelation 3:14 Sacrifice – Ephesians 5:2 Savior – 2 Samuel 22:47; Luke 1:47 Second Adam – 1 Corinthians 15:47 Seed of Abraham – Galatians 3:16 Seed of David – 2 Timothy 2:8 Seed of the Woman – Genesis 3:15 Servant – Isaiah 42:1 Shepherd – 1 Peter 2:25 Shiloh – Genesis 49:10 Son of David – Matthew 15:22 Son of God – Luke 1:35 Son of Man – Matthew 18:11 Son of Mary – Mark 6:3 Son of the Most High – Luke 1:32 Stone – Isaiah 28:16 Sun of Righteousness – Malachi 4:2 Teacher – Matthew 26:18 Truth – John 14:6 Way – John 14:6 Wonderful Counselor – Isaiah 9:6 Word – John 1:1 Vine – John 15:1 OLD TESTAMENT (THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES OR TANACH) EL: Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the OT, EL SHADDAI: ADONAI: Jehovah – LORD Yahweh is the covenant name of God. Occurs 6823 times in the OT JEHOVAH-JIREH: Gen. 22:14 JEHOVAH-ROPHEEx. 15:22-26. JEHOVAH-NISSI: Ex. 17:15. JEHOVAH-M’KADDESH: “The Lord Who Sanctifies” (Leviticus 20:7-8) JEHOVAH-SHALOM: “The Lord Our Peace” Judges 6:24. “ SHEPHERD Psa. 23, 79:13, 95:7, 80:1, 100:3; Gen. 49:24; Isa. 40:11. JUDGE: Psa. 7:8, 96:13. JEHOVAH ELOHIM: “LORD God” Gen. 2:4; Judges 5:3; Isa. 17:6; Zeph. 2:9; Psa. 59:5, etc. JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU: “The Lord Our Righteousness” Jer. 23:5, 6, 33:16. JEHOVAH-ROHI: “The Lord Our Shepherd” Psa. 23, JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH: “The Lord is There” (Ezek. 48:35). JEHOVAH-SABAOTH: “The Lord of Hosts”. Isa. 1:24; Psa. 46:7, 11; 2 Kings 3:9-12; Jer. 11:20 (NT: Rom. 9:29; James 5:4, Rev. 19: 11-16). EL ELYON: ‘Most High” (from “to go up”) Deut. 26:19, 32:8; Psa. 18:13; Gen. 14:18; Nu. 24:16;Psa. 78:35, 7:17, 18:13, 97:9, 56:2, 78:56, 18:13; Dan. 7:25, 27; Isa. 14:14. ABIR: ‘Mighty One’, (“to be strong”) Gen. 49:24; Deut. 10:17; Psa. 132:2, 5; Isa. 1:24, 49:26, 60:1. BRANCH:, The Branch: Zech. 3:8, 6:12; Isa. 4:2; Jer. 23:5, 33:15. KADOSH: “Holy One” Psa. 71:22; Isa. 40:25, 43:3, 48:17. Isaiah uses the expression “the Holy One of Israel” 29 times. SHAPHAT: “Judge” Gen. 18:25 EL ROI: “God of Seeing” Hagar in Gen. 16:13. The God Who opens our eyes. KANNA: “Jealous” (zealous). Ex. 20:5, 34:14; Deut. 5:9; Isa. 9:7; Zech. 1:14, 8:2. PALET: “Deliverer” Psa. 18:2. YESHUA: Image (Yeshua) “Savior” (“he will save”). Isa. 43:3. GAOL: “Redeemer” (to buy back by paying a price). Job 19:25; MAGEN: “Shield” Psa. 3:3, 18:30. STONE: Gen. 49:24 EYALUTH: “Strength” Psa. 22:19. TSADDIQ: “Righteous One” Psa. 7:9. EL-OLAM: “Everlasting God” (God of everlasting time) Gen. 21:33; Psa. 90:1-3, 93:2; Isa. 26:4. EL-BERITH: “God of the Covenant” Used of Baal in Judges 9:46. Probably used originally to refer to the God of israel. EL-GIBHOR: Mighty God (Isa. 9:6) TSUR: “God our Rock” Deut. 32:18; Isa. 30:29. MELEKH: “King” Psa. 5:2, 29:10, 44:4, 47:6-8, 48:2, 68:24, 74:12, 95:3, 97:1, 99:4, 146:10; Isa. 5:1, 5, 41:21, 43:15, 44:6; 52:7, 52:10. FATHER: 2 Sam. 7:14-15; Psa. 68:5; Isa. 63:16, 64:8; Mal. 1:6. How many different names and identifieirs are there for God? Many > 50 probably - are you confuse as to the real God? If there are >50 names, identifiers, and descriptions for God – does this mean you must have >50 gods in your pantheon – there are >50 different words "why didn’t Enoch call them sinning angels"?[/font] You make my point perfectly clear - but refuse to see it - because you choose not to The archon are describe by different vocabulary by different authorsPaul calls them Powers and Principalities (archie) - why doesn't Paul just say sinning angels - or just say angels - or just say fallen angels - and in your case - Paul could have just said satan and be done with it You make my point perfectly clear - but refuse to see it The archon are describe by different vocabulary by different authorsYou stumble over words - just because you choose to [/quote]
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 4:56:12 GMT -5
Nice research Dave,
Lets for discussion sake, list them as Names, if they occur more than 10 times in the torah.
Now revise your list, and place next to each Name, the verses (up to 10) for each Name.
I will start this for you:
0433. hwla 'elowahh, 56 verses, meaning old name for Most High
07307. xwr ruwach, 348 verses, meaning Medium.
07706. ydv Shadday, 48 verses, old name for HS.
07462. her ra`ah, 144 verses, the word means FEEDER, not shepherd, see Job 1:14
(How many verses does 07462 relate to YHWH? ) ANswer 34
How many relate Feeder to YHWH directly? Answer 4
Ps 23:1 The YHWH is my Feeder, I shall not want.
Ps 37:3 Trust in YHWH, do good, dwell in the land, and supporting YHWH thou shalt be fed.
Eze 34:15 I will feed <ra`ah> my flock <tso'n>,
Ho 4:16 now the LORD <Y@hovah> will feed <ra`ah> them
So there are only FOUR uses of the term Feeder relating as a functional descriptor of YHWH.
OK Dave, I started a study, using my electronic Bible it's easy to do but time consuming. Since this bothers you so much, continue with the other listed Names of GOD. I make a prediction: this is valid science, I have already listed the most important Names of Elohiym, which I got from Job, the oldest Hebrew we have. There should not be any others, used more than 10 times in the torah.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 31, 2021 10:55:57 GMT -5
You can play any game you want to avoid my point
There are round 100 names, identifiers, and descriptive terms for God How many names, identifiers, and descriptive terms are there for your satan? Satan, Lucifer, the deceiver, the Dragon, the Beast,, the Devil, a deceiving spirit, the father of lies, etc, etc, etc
But you argue that angel, sinning angel, bane elohiym, Powers, and Principalities (archon) MUST BE DIFFERENT CREATURES – WHY – BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT NAMES
My Point – my claim – is that you just play word games to fit your doctrine When we are in agreement – words are so flexible for you 100 names for God 25 names for satan But if I say archon – suddenly words are inflexible – one word means Principalities (archon) others words must means anything else that is different – and you go on tirades demanding one word-isms
My Point is to expose your bias – AND THE ABSOLUTE ERROR OF YOUR ROBERT METHOD
You Sir and not here to study honestly – your goal here is to defend your satanology And you are confused why I think you Catholic
My second point – you seems to have the authority to speak in absolutes Yet it is so obvious that you are NOT a student of the Torah
You have been taught to study the Torah as a Christian You have been told something is there – when you do a topic search you always see what you intend to see Only if you know the answer first – can you support it by topic search And how do you know what to look for – doctrine
But if I ask to study a different topic – why can’t a Jew touch the skin of a dead pig Or the Tower of Babble – or the Mark of Cain – your doctrine doesn’t tell you what to look for So – you are stumped
You are not a student of the Hebrew or the Torah – you just use your word game to support your doctrine
Don’t get offended – I am not attacking you
I am challenging you to step up your game – If you want to study scripture – I am here If all you want to do is defend your SDA doctrine then I should say The more your grasp – the farther you reach to defend your satan doctrine – the less serious you appear – less studious – and just more desperate
This is the most important subject in the world / of your life Doesn’t it require and honest and serious study
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 17:26:51 GMT -5
Are you saying only those who gnosis using Gnostic beliefs are saved? D " This is the most important subject in the world / of your life Doesn’t it require and honest and serious studyR How is a person saved? You have my attention. Please use texts too. For example: www.learnreligions.com/what-is-gnosticism-700683By Jack Zavada Updated September 14, 2019 Gnosticism (pronounced NOS tuh siz um) was a second-century religious movement claiming that salvation could be gained through a special form of secret knowledge. Early Christian church fathers such as Origen, Tertullian, Justin Martyr and Eusebius of Caesarea condemned gnostic teachers and beliefs as heretical. R Is this true from your view? Am I missing this secret knowledge? Gnosticism Definition The term Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "to know" or "knowledge." This knowledge is not intellectual but mythical and comes through a special revelation by Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, or through his apostles. The secret knowledge reveals the key to salvation. R Is this true from your view? Am I missing this secret knowledge? Beliefs of Gnosticism Gnostic beliefs clashed strongly with accepted Christian doctrine, causing early church leaders to be embroiled in heated debates over the issues. By the end of the second century, many Gnostics broke away or were expelled from the church. They formed alternative churches with belief systems deemed heretical by the Christian church.R So this secret knowledge is so different from early Christian churches, they separated? While many variations in beliefs existed among the different Gnostic sects, the following key elements were seen in most of them.Dualism: Gnostics believed that the world was divided into the physical and spiritual realms. The created, material world (matter) is evil, and therefore in opposition to the world of the spirit, and that only the spirit is good. Adherents of Gnosticism often constructed an evil, lesser god and beings of the Old Testament to explain the creation of the world (matter) and considered Jesus Christ a wholly spiritual God.God:
R: "SO your God does not desire a relationship with humans Dave? R" Gnostics also separate the inferior god of creation from the superior god of redemption. Is this true? Salvation: Gnosticism claims hidden knowledge as the basis for salvation. Adherents believed that secret revelation frees the "divine spark" within humans, allowing the human soul to return to the divine realm of light in which it belongs. Gnostics, thus, divided Christians into two categories with one group being carnal (inferior) and the other being spiritual (superior). Only the superior, divinely enlightened persons could comprehend the secret teachings and obtain true salvation.
R "Oh so this divine spark is the true essence of salvation? No wonder you wanted me to know this idea? Sorry Dave , I think your gnostics ideas are wrong. Christianity teaches that salvation is available to everyone, not just a special few and that it comes from grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), and not from study or works. The only source of truth is the Bible, Christianity asserts.Jesus Christ: Gnostics were divided on their beliefs about Jesus Christ. One view held that he only appeared to have human form but that he was actually spirit only. The other view contended that his divine spirit came upon his human body at baptism and departed before the crucifixion. Christianity, on the other hand, holds that Jesus was fully man and fully God and that his human and divine natures were both present and necessary to provide a suitable sacrifice for humanity's sin.
R SO defined Jesus clearly to me Dave, from, the above paragraph? The New Bible Dictionary gives this outline of Gnostic beliefs: "The supreme God dwelt in unapproachable splendour in this spiritual world, and had no dealings with the world of matter. Matter was the creation of an inferior being, the Demiurge. He, along with his aides the archōns, kept mankind imprisoned within their material existence, and barred the path of individual souls trying to ascend to the spirit world after death. Not even this possibility was open to everyone, however. For only those who possessed a divine spark (pneuma) could hope to escape from their corporeal existence. And even those possessing such a spark did not have an automatic escape, for they needed to receive the enlightenment of gnōsis before they could become aware of their own spiritual condition... In most of the Gnostic systems reported by the church Fathers, this enlightenment is the work of a divine redeemer, who descends from the spiritual world in disguise and is often equated with the Christian Jesus. Salvation for the Gnostic, therefore, is to be alerted to the existence of his divine pneuma and then, as a result of this knowledge, to escape on death from the material world to the spiritual."R: Torah does not explain salvation like that? Hebrew says salvation is entirely based on "amanuah with yashuah", no wonder you gloss over my study of this, it's not considered by Gnostic writings, is it? Gnostic Writings Gnostic writings are extensive. Many so-called Gnostic Gospels are presented as "lost" books of the Bible, but in fact, did not meet the criteria when the canon was formed. In many instances, they contradict the Bible.
R true, GNostic writings do contradict the torah. In 1945 a vast library of gnostic documents was discovered in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. Along with the writings of the early church fathers, these supplied the basic resources for reconstructing the Gnostic belief system.R SO JOhn Huss, Tyndale, Luther, Spurgeon, are not saved because they did NOT follow GNostic writings? I very much like Luther's translation process of the torah in German, he follows the same principles that Jeff Benner follows. From what I have seen here Dave GNostic writings are totally different to torah writings. GNostic writings have a totally different system of salvation, than the torah writings. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 1, 2021 2:45:09 GMT -5
Are you saying only those who gnosis using Gnostic beliefs are saved? Absolutely NOT – Gnosticism is not a religion or a separate denomination It is a way of looking at reality
Torah + Science + Kabbalah + Midrash + history + church history + studies in cultural trends + current events + secondary prophesies + ancient astronauts + ancient gods + incorrect attitudes Evolution + false religions + UFOs + exorcisms + clairvoyants + other religions + especially islam
D "This is the most important subject in the world / of your life Doesn’t it require and honest and serious study R How is a person saved? You have my attention. Please use texts too.
Gnosticism says there are 3 types of Christians
The simplest answer - just believe – believe and confess – believe and witness – and never to deny This group has extremes Those who believed at 20 – but fell away by 40 – were pretenders (thought they believe) Those who are parade pretenders – people who attend church for image – politicians Those who attend church for pride – Sunday school leaders – choir directors with power Those who PREACH – because it pays well and comes with immediate respect
Believers – who can believe anything
D "This is the most important subject in the world / of your life Doesn’t it require and honest and serious study But the trap of the archon – the trap of the world is man does not become a simple Christian They become a Presbyterian, or a Methodist, or a Catholic, or a SDA They become sidetracked in man-made religious law / worship / ritual Do they Graduate from their corner church – no they stay there long term 30 years later – they are still studying doctrine 30 years study in any other discipline would earn you several PhDs But 30 years later people still have no clue what scripture says Gnosticism says there are 3 types of Christians The next type of Christian = the Born Again – a spiritual relationship – praying in the spirit – spirit to spirit – John 3
Personal Pentecost – to become instruments of the Holy Spirit – the hand of God – to prophesy and to understand prophesy
2Ki 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? 2Ki 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. 2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Eyes OPENED – instruction – understanding
Spiritual Communion
The Gospel of Philip - The Nag Hammadi Library "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing.
Gnosticism (pronounced NOS tuh siz um) was a second-century religious movement claiming that salvation could be gained through a special form of secret knowledge.
Secret knowledge – as in knowing a secret – NO Knowing something as fact – as spirit – is not an intellectual exercise
Paul was whisked up into heaven – Paul knew it as a fact not a belief At Pentecost – the HS came to many people at once - a fact not a belief 2 Kings 6 – Elisha – knew (zero doubt) – spiritual – in communication with God 2 Kings 6 – Elisha’s servant was a believer – and can only see the world 2 men – one Born Again and in a spiritual communion – one just a believer
Early Christian church fathers such as Origen, (Alexandria, Egypt / Coptic) Tertullian (Tertullian – Coptic), Justin Martyr and Eusebius of Caesarea condemned gnostic teachers and beliefs as heretical. What did the non-believers think at Pentecost? When you see a televangelist speak in tongues – or heal with his hands What do you think – my first thought is always skepticism
Spiritual gifts are just like UFOs There is so much fakery that it taints the whole
R Is this true from your view? Am I missing this secret knowledge? I am not your judge BUT – you deny the spirit and doubt all of this as magic Is the story of 2 Kings 6 magic – or just spiritual – or fake – or a metaphor of something different?
Gnosticism Definition The term Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "to know" or "knowledge." This knowledge is not intellectual but mythical and comes through a special revelation by Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, or through his apostles. The secret knowledge reveals the key to salvation.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The people that call this knowledge secret are the same people that call it magic
to know" or "knowledge." To know = to know it as a fact – that is all it takes
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. To know = to know it as a fact – that is all it takes
to know" or "knowledge." knowledge implies an accumulation of trivia / data / an intellectual academic mastery of the scriptures NO – it does not take a genius to know that it is wrong to kill – or steal – something you just understand – because we were all taught the Torah in the womb – and we were once in the presence of God
R Is this true from your view? Am I missing this secret knowledge?
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Gnostic beliefs clashed strongly with accepted Christian doctrine, causing early church leaders to be embroiled in heated debates over the issues. By the end of the second century, many Gnostics broke away or were expelled from the church. They formed alternative churches with belief systems deemed heretical by the Christian church. R So this secret knowledge is so different from early Christian churches, they separated?
Church History 101 – there are two sides to this Roman Edit In Western Christendom when a text says ‘accepted Christian doctrine’ – they mean Rome Roman Catholicism is all about man being dependent on the Church When you are born you need a priest When you are circumcised you need a priest To be instructed in the Torah or agl – you need a priest If you want to get married you need a priest If you get buried you need a priest If you want forgiveness for sin you need a priest If you want to be baptized – you need a priest If you want to have Communion – your need a priest
12/25/800AD Charlemagne (wiki) Pope Leo III crowned the Frankish king, Charlemagne, Emperor of the Romans on Christmas Day, 800 in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, making him the most powerful ruler of his time
This was the end of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire not seated in Rome – but in Constantinople / and the Byzantine Empire
Question – who has all the power the most powerful ruler of his time – or – the church that ordained it by God
What happened after 800 AD - the Crusades (I don’lt have my info at hand – but) The 4th Crusade? – the Pope told king Phillip of France that if the King didn’t send troops and supplies (be the underwriter) NO ONE in France could go to heaven What was King Phillip to do? Obey the pope – or be crucified by his own people once the pope tells them this story
‘accepted Christian doctrine’ – they mean Rome Why did the Rome try their best to stamp out First Century Messianic Judaism?
If you become a spiritual Christian – you have no need for the church – or you should lead the church Both a threat to the Roman machine
I can experience Communion with a Coke and French Fries – road side at a rest area – alone in the dark Do I need a priest or a church to confess my sins Do I need a church or a priest to accept Jesus Christ as my savior
While many variations in beliefs existed among the different Gnostic sects, the following key elements were seen in most of them. Dualism: Gnostics believed that the world was divided into the physical and spiritual realms. Gen 1:1 – heavens (pl) and earth The created, material world (matter) is evil, Physical creation comes with entropy – it will wear our / wind down / go from order to disorder All of this is moving away from neg-entropy If neg-entropy is tov (creation) Then the entropy within it = ra
Material world (matter) is the domain / home of the archon Material world is a trap – might feel good and look good – but will wear out and die
and therefore in opposition to the world of the spirit, OR – this corrupted world is the garbage pit of God’s larger reality OR – of all the heavens / worlds – this is the lower world
Adherents of Gnosticism often constructed an evil, lesser god and beings of the Old Testament The First Archon is not a God (with a capital G) but a god (small g) just like any ‘other god’ archon The First Archon is not a God (capital G) – he is a selfish bully who thinks he is something – but it is a delusion because at the end God says – bye – and they are gone – no war
to explain the creation of the world (matter) and considered Jesus Christ a wholly spiritual God. Hmmm? Not from the Nag Hammadi as a whole
R: "SO your God does not desire a relationship with humans Dave? R" Gnostics also separate the inferior god of creation from the superior god of redemption. Is this true? STOP IT – The Primary = ahl + agl – this is weighed as a source from heaven Supplemental material - are writing by men who were there on the ground Adam and Eve, Enoch, King Solomon, the authors of the agl Supplemental material - is supplemental and not weighted as heavily as the ahl + agl Supplemental material - never rewrite the primary – what can rewrite the primary? Supplemental material - has more error and mistake – both in transcription and translation And sometimes the authors of Supplemental material are guilty of embellishing and exaggerations OR – is embellishing and exaggerations the result of poor transcription and translation
Salvation: Gnosticism claims hidden knowledge as the basis for salvation. Belief is the bases of salvation – that is all that is required This secret is not a secret – it is John 3 – Born Again of spirit – spirit to spirit
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The people that call this knowledge secret are the same people that call it magic
Adherents believed that secret revelation frees the "divine spark" within humans, allowing the human soul to return to the divine realm of light in which it belongs.
Gnostics, thus, divided Christians into two categories with one group being carnal (inferior) and the other being spiritual (superior). Only the superior, divinely enlightened persons could comprehend the secret teachings and obtain true salvation.
one group being carnal (inferior) – is a nasty way to say it – believers other being spiritual (superior). – judgmental – to receive the gift of the HS does not make anyone superior – just ask Paul Rom 7 – wretched man that I am (true knowledge – if we are honest)
R "Oh so this divine spark is the true essence of salvation? No wonder you wanted me to know this idea? Sorry Dave , I think your gnostics ideas are wrong.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jud 1:20 But you, loved ones, continue building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, keep alert with perseverance and supplication for all the kedoshim.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Ruach on the Day of the Lord, and I heard behind me a loud voice like that of a trumpet,
Joh 3:3 Yeshua answered him, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
R "Oh so this divine spark is the true essence of salvation? No wonder you wanted me to know this idea? Sorry Dave , I think your gnostics ideas are wrong. I do not care what you think – I will stick to scripture
Christianity teaches that salvation is available to everyone, not just a special few and that it comes from grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), and not from study or works. The only source of truth is the Bible, Christianity asserts. Absolutely belief is all that is necessary and Gnosticism is a call to accept the spirit and learn – so we understand
Jesus Christ: Gnostics were divided on their beliefs about Jesus Christ. One view held that he only appeared to have human form but that he was actually spirit only. The other view contended that his divine spirit came upon his human body at baptism and departed before the crucifixion. Christianity, on the other hand, holds that Jesus was fully man and fully God and that his human and divine natures were both present and necessary to provide a suitable sacrifice for humanity's sin.
Where do you get this – there is a word for this I America = BULL SHIT Church History 101 – (wiki) First Council of Nicaea in 325 - The Arian controversy was a series of Christian theological disputes that arose between Arius and Athanasius of Alexandria, two Christian theologians from Alexandria, Egypt. The most important of these controversies concerned the substantial relationship between God the Father and God the Son.
The question = the divine nature of Jesus Christ Was Jesus always Divine from birth –or- did the HS descend upon Him when John baptized Him
Your entire paragraph = absolute incorrect information – absolutely nothing Gnostic about it – but mainstream Romanology
R SO defined Jesus clearly to me Dave, from, the above paragraph? My answer = Jesus is God incarnate = God in a carnal body All men are (spirit + animal) Jesus was (God + animal) Trinity – God = Christ = Spirit We can experience God as spirit – or as the image of man / Son of Man = Jesus Christ
Exo 33:19 So He said, “I will cause all My goodness to pass before you, and call out the Name of Adonai before you. I will be gracious toward whom I will be gracious, and I will show mercy on whom I will be merciful.” Exo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” No one on the mc2 side of the equation E=mc2 can experience the E Exo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. Glory – essence – spirit – c2 of the E=mc2 Exo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.” Image = Christ = the m of the E = mc2
Melchesadek?
The New Bible Dictionary gives this outline of Gnostic beliefs: "The supreme God dwelt in unapproachable splendour in this spiritual world, and had no dealings with the world of matter. Hmmm? Maybe – Gods uses messengers and many angels had job assignments
Matter was the creation of an inferior being, the Demiurge. In the two stories of the demiurge (the helper) the artisan / craftsman – the demiurge world with the HS “to complete the auto genesis” I suppose this being is inferior to the Trinity – but had a pretty important job
Demiurge. He, along with his aides the archōns, kept mankind imprisoned within their material existence, and barred the path of individual souls trying to ascend to the spirit world Not in the Nag Hammadi - - other than they hinder man from remembering who he really is and the demurige is not part of the archon
Not even this possibility was open to everyone, however. For only those who possessed a divine spark (pneuma) could hope to escape from their corporeal existence. And even those possessing such a spark did not have an automatic escape, for they needed to receive the enlightenment of gnōsis before they could become aware of their own spiritual condition...
Arrrg – again this call to be spiritual – is the call of john 3
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jud 1:20 But you, loved ones, continue building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, keep alert with perseverance and supplication for all the kedoshim.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Ruach on the Day of the Lord, and I heard behind me a loud voice like that of a trumpet,
Joh 3:3 Yeshua answered him, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In most of the Gnostic systems reported by the church Fathers, this enlightenment is the work of a divine redeemer, who descends from the spiritual world in disguise and is often equated with the Christian Jesus.
YES – Jesus Christ is the Divine Redeemer – who returns as the Comforter - the indwelling of the HS – to be in Christ – spirit to spirit
Salvation for the Gnostic, therefore, is to be alerted to the existence of his divine pneuma and then, as a result of this knowledge, to escape on death from the material world to the spiritual." No one is ascending without mortal death
R: Torah does not explain salvation like that? Hebrew says salvation is entirely based on "amanuah with yashuah", no wonder you gloss over my study of this, it's not considered by Gnostic writings, is it? Correct – Torah has always called on a personal relationship with the Creator Just as Elijah had – Abraham has – Jacob – Moses – Joshua – Nathan – Ezekiel – Isaiah – and many more
Gnostic Writings Gnostic writings are extensive. Many so-called Gnostic Gospels are presented as "lost" books of the Bible, but in fact, did not meet the criteria when the canon was formed. In many instances, they contradict the Bible.
Again – stick to ahl + agl + Kabbalah + Midrash – from the past + Nag Hammadi + Dead Sea Scrolls 1945/8 and 1948 Israel + world history +current events + scripture validating science
In 1945 a vast library of gnostic documents was discovered in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. Along with the writings of the early church fathers, these supplied the basic resources for reconstructing the Gnostic belief system.
Absolutely and 3 of those texts say – hidden for the generation of the end days Many focused upon the archon and the coming battels of the end of days Saying within the text – preparing the generation of the end of days for the coming battel writings of the early church fathers – the writing and understanding of the First century Messianic Jews The First Christians – before Rome
1947 Dead Sea Scroll = Gnostic War Scroll - Saying within the text – preparing the generation of the end of days for the coming battel
1948 Israel – and the world stage is set for the 3rd temple period – the Abomination desolation – and the war of Ezk 38 – a nuclear exchange between the King of the North and the King of the South
R SO JOhn Huss, Tyndale, Luther, Spurgeon, are not saved because they did NOT follow GNostic writings? Spoken like a true judgmental Catholic Christian claiming his one-way-ism
From what I have seen here Dave Gnostic writings are totally different to torah writings. Different authors = from different times – with different vocabulary – agree
GNostic writings have a totally different system of salvation, than the torah writings. We have a word for this in America - BS
Many are called - few are chosen The song says - when those saints go marching in - I want to be in their number
The call is to be more than just a believer - to step up - a spiritual walk - to be the First Friuts This is a higher calling than deliberately heading to the grave to wait the First Resurection
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2021 13:39:34 GMT -5
You replied calmly and well Dave, despite the BS of other people's opinion.
Since I am new to Gnostic writings, I don't have any real opinions.
You claim different writers used different words for explaining things. I get that, if it's secular, but not if the message is inspired. Inspired messages are words from one Author, God, who does not change. And we agree God does not make mistakes.
So if Gnostic writings are just a way of thinking, and you see them as supplementary writings, why place time reading them? I read sola scriptoria, and spend my time in the Hebrew words.
You showed me a verse that is interesting:
Joh 3:3 Yeshua answered him, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Why do we need to be born from above? What's wrong with our normal birth of flesh?
To me, when Adam sinned, GOD cursed the adamuh , meaning everything adam was comprised of, from adamuh, including the relationship Adam had with the HS medium, empowering the Father's breath of living in Adam.
This means the DNA became corrupted, and later the Prince of Earth, who managed to get Adam to sin, using epi-genetic changes, or DNA alterations? (not sure), the DNA of our bodies is causing us immediately a slow lingering death. Exactly as GOD said, Ye would dying die. (the word death is repeated twice).
This means through Adam, all flesh born of Adam also die and experience death. So the DNA has lost it's perfection of code.
So the answer to this problem, is to be reborn of the compassion-centre of the HS, and change the DNA back to it's original perfection condition. This can only happen if you are born a second time from above.
In the process of the first birth, the DNA does not immediately make a new fetus, so the development of the new beginning takes time.
Likewise the process of the second birth, the character contained inside the DNA that is corrupted (my theory the DNA records all your thoughts, actions, and views in some chemical code), the second birth has to renew the DNA code without spoiling the old or new character development the person already has, so the changes to you, being renewed, is daily and gradual, just as in the first flesh birth, your development is gradual and slow too. This change takes place in a medium, because the changes are both virtual and literal, and are administrated by GOD, just as GOD also using the Medium, to administrate the breath of life, the Medium now also administrates the breathing of salvation. Salvation is a Divine Person called Yashuah, so the Medium personifies Jesus to us, so as the still small voice of Jesus, daily we hear GOD speaking to us, so by supporting GOD with His words of promised power, GOD in turn supports us. This process is called growing in the Spirit.
Now this is how I understand the second birth, it is in the end of the last trumpet, a finishing touch of daily development, so we live with Jesus in heaven, a 1000 years at His wedding, in the same bodies we have developed on earth, with a completely restored DNA, so our ongoing living is assured and complete.
That Dave is how I would explain the spirit and the born process of the spirit.
Summarize how you see the born process of the spirit. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 1, 2021 16:28:00 GMT -5
Since I am new to Gnostic writings, I don't have any real opinions.Be honest – in a 12 step recovery program to overcome an addiction The first step is to admit you have a problem You have extremely strong opinions – your SDA doctrine told you which opinions to have And your filter everything thought SDA eyes . If it does not fit your SDA doctrine – you become uncomfortable You claim different writers used different words for explaining things. I get that, if it's secular, but not if the message is inspired. Inspired messages are words from one Author, God, who does not change. And we agree God does not make mistakes.Then why are there 100 names for the Creator – isn’t one wordism enough to contain Him Why are there so many names for Christ – or the HS or your satan - one wordism isn’t enough So if Gnostic writings are just a way of thinking, Gnosticism is a way of thinking – I agree – openness – not limited in scope or viewExample – as a Christian studies scripture – different guys are respected for their insight Calvin – Luther – Tyndal – Wyclif – Sturgeon - Moody - all of these guys wrote things And all of it survives in Christian Commentary - Hennery – Arthur Clark – Scofield – Meyer – Wesly To be a well-rounded Christian Bible student – over time you amass a library of opinion What is the topic of all these documents and commentaries? God, Christ, Spirit, Salvation, etc, etc Does anyone consider these additional wittings INSPIRED – NOIf you walked into a professor of New Testament studies and discover he had been reading through a library of additional writing – would you consider this Christian a heretic You are a one word only guy – what one world sums up all of this additional Christian writing that impact Christian understanding – Answer a KabbalahJudaism of the ahl – there were additional writing not just scripture There were shopping list – there were Government records – there were stories parent told their children – Enoch, Adam and Eve, - all of this survives in a collection called the MidRash What is the topic of some of these documents - God, Christ, Spirit, Salvation, etc, etc You also have writings of different guys are respected for their insight – Rabbi this and Rabbi that, King Solomon, the Book of Jashar, the Book of Creation, And you have commentaries by Rabbi this and Rabbi that You are a one word only guy – what one world sums up all of this additional Jewish writing that impact Jewish understanding – Answer a Kabbalahand you see them as supplementary writings, why place time reading them? I read sola scriptoria, and spend my time in the Hebrew words.Ellen White is a supplementary writing and it shapes the entire way you read you KJVWhy are supplemental writing OK – if they are of Western Roman Christendom origin But – totally rejectable if Jewish in origin or of First century Christian origin Are you sure you have no opinions or BIAS? You showed me a verse that is interesting: Joh 3:3 Yeshua answered him, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Why do we need to be born from above? What's wrong with our normal birth of flesh?You ask this because you deny the spirit – therefore you deny Charismatic ChristianityHealing the sick by laying on of the hands – speaking in tongues – discernment – seeing Christ Transfigured – watching Christ ascend into heaven - opening your eyes and seeing God’s army of flaming angels – is not of the flesh What does Jesus mean – you cannot see the kingdom of God – unless Jesus also told another man - Luk 23:43 Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” This is not a mystery – it does not needs a round about explanation Jesus is referring to FIRST FRUITS Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years. Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. FIRST FRUITS = martyrs for the Lord – Moses – Abraham – Isaac – Elijah – Joseph – David – etc, etc, etc + the guy on the cross + those that die in Christ and receive the divine pardon THE GOAL of a Christian is not to be seen in church sitting in the back row The Goal is to be a disciple / an apostle – witness to all the nations of the world The Goal is not to be Elijah’s servant – worried about the world against us – a doubting believer The goal is to be in communion with the Lord as Elijah – confident in the gnosis of the spiritual Praying in the spirit – not with my mouth or my mind Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, Praying in the spirit – not with my mouth or my mind Jud 1:20 But you, loved ones, continue building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Ruach ha-Kodesh. If you are busy talking – how can you listen? Rev 1:10 I was in the Ruach on the Day of the Lord, and I heard behind me a loud voice like that of a trumpet, In Gnosticism Spiritual Christian are the First Fruits - were are servants of the Lord – we do His Will as He leads us Upon mortal death – the First Fruits with the divine pardon – go straight to the Bosom of Abraham Believers are saved – but they await the First resurrection Believers are a varied bunch – many types of beliefs – many different levels of conviction Why do they have to wait – because they are going through a period of Proportional Punishment? Every man according to his deeds, works, and fruit Deeds – being a good guy or selfish guy Works – how well did you do yur religious duty to witness Fruits – the number of souls you helped return to God To me, when Adam sinned, GOD cursed the adamuh , meaning everything adam was comprised of, from adamuh, including the relationship Adam had with the HS medium, empowering the Father's breath of living in Adam.I love this passage 1st Book of Adam and Eve8:1 THEN Adam wept and said, "O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us." 2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish." it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish.Describes you perfectly – all you see is the fleshThis means the DNA became corrupted, and later the Prince of Earth, who managed to get Adam to sin, using epi-genetic changes, or DNA alterations? (not sure), the DNA of our bodies is causing us immediately a slow lingering death. Exactly as GOD said, Ye would dying die. (the word death is repeated twice). Maybe? I don’t know – except that I do not accept any form of biological Evolution Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. This means through Adam, all flesh born of Adam also die and experience death. So the DNA has lost it's perfection of code.YES – only the gene pool of Adam and Eve (man) was effected – not sharks – not trees – or birdsIn the process of the first birth, the DNA does not immediately make a new fetus, so the development of the new beginning takes time.Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. You only see the near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish.Summarize how you see the born process of the spirit. I can give you witness after witness that can tell you the time and place on their salvation For each of them and myself it was a memorable experience There is witness after witness of people meeting Christ in some type of out-of-body experience A 'Holy Spirit Hunch' Led Lebanese Pastor to Send Everyone Home Before the Explosionyoutu.be/ogQQgQ_3bt0Drug Addict Comes Face to Face with JesusWhat do you say about people like Kim ClementDo you know SID ROTH – put his name in a youtube search Question- what do theses verse mean – how can God speakJoe 1:1 The word of Adonai that came to Joel Mic 1:1 The word of Adonai that came to Micah Hos 1:1 The word of Adonai that came to Hosea Answer – not with words and vocabulary – but by Holy Spirt speaking to God’s prophets Spirt to spirit
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2021 14:27:47 GMT -5
D" Then why are there 100 names for the Creator – isn’t one wordism enough to contain Him Why are there so many names for Christ – or the HS or your satan - one wordism isn’t enough
R I have often asked the same question myself. Technically there are no names for GOD, Hebrew names are based on Hebrew verbs of action. Noach, the one who comforts (nacham). Is a classic example. Yashuah, the one who saves (yasha) is another. YHWH, means "He exists". So Hebrew has lots of functional descriptors, yes. correct.If elohiym powers is a simile of parents, than there should be some evidence for this?
Ie three functional descriptors, reflecting personalities loving styles (masculine love and feminine love, with child like love). Does this kind of thing exist in Scripture? I say yes. D" And you have commentaries by Rabbi this and Rabbi thatR My understanding is Jesus was a Jew who did not follow Kabbalah, or MidRash or other Jewish commentaries. Jesus only read and followed the torah. The Jews often quibbled Jesus not following Jewish customs.... Jesus was killed mainly because Jesus broke Sabbath rules, and claimed to be the SON of GOD. D" Ellen White is a supplementary writing and it shapes the entire way you read you KJVR Arrh no,.... Ellen white was sent by Jesus to be our Hebrew English translator. SO if I am stuck reading the Hebrew as Jeff Benner teaches it, I can use my inspired Hebrew English translator for guidance. I have ran a science test of EGW English against Ancient Hebrew as Jeff Benner explains it. Of the 30+ words I studied, many not of SDA doctrine at all, for example there is no religion that proclaims the Father is a twur rock and Jesus is a cela rock, so I studied the Ellen White writings to see if she writes about this, and she does. I even looked for obscure Hebrew words to really test her translation ability. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1061.htm Read the 30 + pages and see for yourself, I copy the Jeff Benner Lexicon, to show I use only his meanings, and than research the EGW translation response. D" Are you sure you have no opinions or BIAS?R I am happy to evaluate any Jewish author in the same way, as long as I have easy search ability to investigate a lot of his words in writing. I did a study of Martin Luther, using the the science text. Alas Luther has not much on the WWW, so I found his material about 70% inspired. Most authors do not allow you access to their writings for free easy research, but the EGWwritings.org does. You can freely access all 700,000 of her words. To be a true prophet, 100% of any research must agree with the ancient Hebrew torah. D" 1st Book of Adam and Eve 8:1 THEN Adam wept and said, "O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us."
2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish." R nice The HS Medium shrank when they sinned, hence as the quote above says, they became naked, and could not see. D" Maybe? I don’t know – except that I do not accept any form of biological EvolutionR correct , evolution as a term does not work. I find the term simply refers to the spoiling of God's design. D" Y ES – only the gene pool of Adam and Eve (man) was effected – not sharks – not trees – or birdsR Hmm? I find all DNA was affected, the curse evaded all living things that very day Adam sinned. D" There is witness after witness of people meeting Christ in some type of out-of-body experienceR Pardon? D" Answer – not with words and vocabulary – but by Holy Spirt speaking to God’s prophets Spirt to spirit
R Hmm? Why don't you read the accounts of how a 17 yr old woman in feeble condition, becomes a prophet? Prophets receive messages, in visions, eyes open but do not blink, and the mouth does not breathe, and they have superhuman strength... What they see they write down... Answer – not with words and vocabulary ? How could you ascertain if the prophet was true or not? You test their words.... 2Ti 3:16 All <pas> scripture <graphe> is given by inspiration of God <theopneustos>, In Hebrew this term is elohiym ruwach. We assume was written together?? Joh 4:24 elohiym ruwach: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Same phrase here. Suggests to me you do not need to go to a church mountain to seek God. You can seek GOD in your heart. D" Question- what do theses verse mean – how can God speakR God speaks to us via the Medium, via our conscience, as a still small voice. How do we know which voice is our self, or archonic or from God? By their fruits ye shall know them. Does this work for you Dave, if GOD designed both the archonic voice as well as the true words of GOD? I am confused with your theory in practical terms. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 2, 2021 17:47:38 GMT -5
D" Then why are there 100 names for the Creator – isn’t one wordism enough to contain Him Why are there so many names for Christ – or the HS or your satan - one wordism isn’t enough R I have often asked the same question myself. Technically there are no names for GOD, Hebrew names are based on Hebrew verbs of action. So Hebrew has lots of functional descriptors, yes. correct.
Finally a breakthrough Is this polysemy of Hebrew words? – NO Why not? – because it is a simple truth that in translation it is impossible to express every aspect of a words meaning or use in just one word – it impossible
My favorite Greek example Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. G4137 – πληρόω - to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Jesus came to - to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply - the Law
Does this make the Greek word πληρόω polysemy? I say no – everywhere πληρόω is used it means only πληρόω The problem is – it takes 50 English words to cover all aspects if πληρόω meaning
D" Then why are there 100 names for the Creator – isn’t one wordism enough to contain Him Why are there so many names for Christ – or the HS or your satan - one wordism isn’t enough R I have often asked the same question myself. Technically there are no names for GOD, Hebrew names are based on Hebrew verbs of action. So Hebrew has lots of functional descriptors, yes. correct.
And even at 100 names, identifiers, and descriptions – has man fully described God? - NO
If elohiym powers is a simile of parents, than there should be some evidence for this? First you have the answer – then you go looking for support
D" And you have commentaries by Rabbi this and Rabbi that R My understanding is Jesus was a Jew who did not follow Kabbalah, or MidRash or other Jewish commentaries. Jesus only read and followed the torah.
PERFECT – Roman Edit – who taught you this idea Western Roman Christendom Enoch an the writing were common knowledge to all at the time of Jesus Jesus and the agl authors quoted Enoch second only to Isaiah Jesus spoke of Beelzebub as if everyone understood who he was speaking of The Jews often quibbled Jesus not following Jewish customs.... Jesus was killed mainly because Jesus broke Sabbath rules,
Correct – Jewish kabbalah speak to a divine messianic redeemer and resurrection Jewish kabbalah is very spiritual – Christ to make Judaism a spiritual practice
The Priest who were in charge of the Temple didn’t like that The same as the Roman machine did like Christians becoming spiritual
and claimed to be the SON of GOD. Agree – that was the hardest one for the Jew to accept However – what Christian are not taught about Judaism = resurrection was already being preached as a Jewish hope for 150 years before Christ. It began in the Maccabean era along with Hanukah.
This why it is the Resurrection that matters - it is the resurrection that is the validation
D" Ellen White is a supplementary writing and it shapes the entire way you read you KJV R Arrh no,.... Ellen white was sent by Jesus to be our Hebrew English translator. D" Ellen White is a supplementary writing and it shapes the entire way you read you KJV
D" There is witness after witness of people meeting Christ in some type of out-of-body experience R Pardon? YouTube – pick one Drug Addict Comes Face to Face with Jesus Gangbanger Physically Encounters JESUS in Prison - Powerful Testimony! Die-Hard Atheist Encounters Jesus Pronounced Dead for 20 Minutes - What He Saw and How it Changed His Life Forever Muslim Encounters Jesus Christ on Hospital Bed THIS MAN DIED DURING SURGERY, MET GOD & ASKED HIM, "WHAT'S THE MEANING OF LIFE?" Jesus Appears to Jewish Woman, "His eyes were just love!" Dreams and Visions: Is Jesus Awakening the Muslim World
Have I seen Jesus – have I had an out of body experience – no Question - Do I doubt any of these stories Answer – sure – BUT – I do not doubt the reality – as in Ezekiel, Isaiah. Elisha, John, James, Peter, etc,
How could you ascertain if the prophet was true or not? You test their words.... 2Ti 3:16 All <pas> scripture <graphe> is given by inspiration of God <theopneustos>,
Disagree - Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaks in Adonai’s Name and the word does not happen or come true, that is a word that Adonai has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously—do not be afraid of him.
Truth and correctness counts
How do we know which voice is our self, or archonic or from God? By their fruits ye shall know them. Does this work for you Dave – NO
Joseph Smith performed 17 Miracles in from of many witness One morning he healed 62 people from fever with a public prayer And the angel Mormo gave him the ‘Other testament of Jesus Christ’
Ellen White who wrote some papers – or- Joseph Smith who could perform miracles and wrote an entire new Bible
Why don’t you follow him?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 13:39:45 GMT -5
Your funny Dave I didn't say elohiym is polysemy. I said elohiym has lots of functional descriptors. YOu would expect that because FAMILY-POWERS shows many verbs of actions, hence the use of over 100 functional descriptors of GOD. But than you change topicD" Is this polysemy of Hebrew words? – NOWhy not? – because it is a simple truth that in translation it is impossible to express every aspect of a words meaning or use in just one word – it impossible R Either you believe in polysmemy OR you don't. I don't. Jeff doesn't and Martin Luther didn't. Sure Hebrew word meanings are broad, never specific and narrow, like Greek is. However sometimes Greek is limiting. Hebrew has 4 words for sheep , Greek has only 3 words. Hence confusion in translation. The word you illustrate: "pleroo" Greek 4137. Jeff Benner say this word was the Hebrew word Grk#:4137 / play-ro-o (verb): Fulfil Freq:&90 Heb#:4390 מלא / ma-la (verb): Fill—To occupy to the full capacity. {The Greek word plhrow is the piel (intensive) form of the Hebrew verb מלא meaning "fulfill."} Heb#:7999 שלם / sha-lam (verb): Make restitution—To restore or make right through action, payment or restoration to a rightful owner. H4390 = G4237 According to Jeff. H4390 (Flowing Authority Strong) contrast to H561(Strong FLowing Authority) Jeff sees these as "fill" and "word". H561 to me is the praying of words, the promised flow of God's authority BEGINS. H4390 to me is the fulfillment of words, the promised flow of GOD's authority ENDS. Or it FILLED making the promise COMPLETE. D” The problem is – it takes 50 English words to cover all aspects if πληρόω meaningR Hmm? Maybe, what is wrong with “fill”. Ge 1:22 Be fruitful <parah>, and multiply <rabah>, and fill <male'> the waters <mayim> in the seas <yam> Ge 1:28, Be fruitful <parah>, and multiply <rabah>, and replenish <male'> the earth <'erets>, and subdue it <kabash>: Why does the KJV use a different English word, for the same phrase of Hebrew words? Sure kabash (surrender) is thrown in, but “male” means to “fill” to earth with mankind. Ex 7:25 And seven <sheba`> days <yowm> were fulfilled <male'>, (KJV) Ex 7:25 And (after) seven <sheba`> days <yowm> (of time were) filled <male'>, (Ancient Hebrew) Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. (KJV) Mat 5:17 “I AM come to fill (up the torah teachings). D” F irst you have the answer – then you go looking for supportR you think? Science can make predictions: Make a hypothesis about monotheism than Dave? If elohiym is ONE, cardinally ONE Authority, there should be no dialogue between GOD and GOD, unless GOD is talking to angels perhaps? If elohiym is ONE, cardinally ONE Authority, there should be no FAMILY similes given. If elohiym is ONE, cardinally ONE Authority, there should be no pictures of FATHER and SON? If elohiym is ONE, cardinally ONE Authority, there should be no GENDER simile pictures. Adam was created as ONE, cardinally ONE Being, yet GOD passed animals past Adam to name, and Adam noticed the animals came in two personalities of love, whereas Adam saw himself as ONE personality of love, and wondered why He was alone, when the other animals were not alone. SO GOD made a genetic clone of Adam, an expression of His Being, but not personality clone of Adam, the Woman had a uniquely different style of loving than did Adam. These two styles of loving are NOT in Hebrew considered two creatures of adam, but One Being of adam, both from Adamuh. The Hebrew word used to describe such a concept is echad, compound unity. God took the same adam from adamuh and split the Being into two, so that a relationship of love, was created from the ONE BEING. (Relationships require two entities at least). This is the best simile of how elohiym power is like. D” Jesus spoke of Beelzebub as if everyone understood who he was speaking ofR Correct, Jesus was familiar with Jewish ways, does not mean He supported those ways. D” Agree – that was the hardest one for the Jew to acceptR Correct, because Jews only see YHWH as cardinally ONE. They stumble of echad, verses Yaccid. ---------------------------------------- Nu 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. De 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, De 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. De 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. De 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. (KJV) D” Disagree - Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaks in Adonai’s Name and the word does not happen or come true, that is a word that Adonai has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously—do not be afraid of him.
Truth and correctness counts
R Prophecy is just one thing a prophet must get right, but so is every word has to agree with the torah of other prophets long ago. Not studied EGW prophecies for long time: In 1902, she warned that the cities around the bay area of California would suffer disaster. She wrote this: Not long hence, these cities will suffer under the judgment of God. San Francisco and Oakland are becoming as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Lord will visit them in wrath (Evangelism, 403-404). As far back as 1864, when the medical world was unaware of the dangers of tobacco, and indeed often prescribed it as a cure or preventative measure against certain lung ailments, Ellen White wrote this: Tobacco is a poison of the most deceitful and malignant kind, having an exciting, then a paralysing influence upon the nerves of the body. It is all the more dangerous because its effects upon the system are so slow, and at first scarcely perceivable. Multitudes have fallen victims to its poisonous influence (Counsels on Health, 84). The following statements, so contradictory to the views of her day, are a brief extract of what she wrote on the issue. The meat diet is the serious question. Shall human beings live on the flesh of dead animals? The answer, from the light that God has given, is No, decidedly No. Health reform institutions should educate on this question. Physicians who claim to understand the human organism ought not to encourage their patients to subsist on the flesh of dead animals. They should point out the increase of disease in the animal kingdom. This testimony of examiners is that very few animals are free from disease, and that the practice of eating largely of meat is contracting diseases of all kinds— cancers, tumours, scrofula, tuberculosis, and numbers of other like affections (Counsel for Diet and Foods, 338). www.end-times-prophecy.org/was-ellen-white-a-prophet-of-god.html This is perhaps the best fairest link of her work as a prophet. A good read. D” Why don’t you follow him? (Joseph Smith – Mormons)R Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. The link above explains what a true prophet must do "When the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known." (Jeremiah 28:9) "He shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak." (John 16:13) "But truly I am full of power by the Spirit of the LORD .. to declare to Israel his sin." (Micah 3:8) "And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me." (Jeremiah 1:16) "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." (1 John 4:2) "Ye shall know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:16) "He shall speak unto them all that I command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18) Mormons do not follow the Hebrew Torah. Shalom
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