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Post by Dave on Oct 21, 2020 9:55:34 GMT -5
The way you explain your Gnostic writings, does make sense, and it sounds nice. I thought I would be honest to say this. However it doesn't mean I would follow it I am not asking you to follow it – or me My job is just to present the information Your walk with God belongs to you – no one elseMy job = to present God and his word without religion Religion = one way = my way or you are lost Religion forces conformance / compliance / acceptance with their doctrine – precepts of men Faith – REQUIRES none of it My work life has been surrounded by the “educated” – Doctors – pathologist – geneticist – chemistry majors – and it is interesting that all of us (this group) all hang out on Physics Blogs for fun Most of these people do not church – and look at your vegetarian shark stuff and scoff They look at your 6 24hr days and scoff The church has failed to keep pace with Daniel’s “Increased Knowledge” This is by archon design – the legacy of the church = If there is a God The church also CHOOSE to stand by centuries old dogma – while downplaying Daniel’s “Increased Knowledge” The end result = we can learn all about Darwin in public school but we cannot even hear the word God near the school grounds You and I are one complete generation after this cultural changeRom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark. Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image in the form of mortal man and birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things. Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the evil desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies with one another. You and I are one complete generation after this cultural change – after this prophesy fulfillment – after God’s hand upon the Western Culture – the era of LGBT – Praise God - this sin – this ra = validation of scripture = tovSome Christians see two men kissing or holding hands – and have to be all judgmental Feel disgust – repulsion – homophobe (church me) But a Gnostic and a Jew (me- now) - only see scripture come alive right before my eyes – Praise God R: Do you have anything coming from Adam's original and first SIN? D: Absolutely – man lost his immortality What does lose immortality mean? I thought only GOD is immortal?immortalliving forever; never dying or decaying. "our mortal bodies are inhabited by immortal souls" Similar: undying, never dying, deathless, eternal, ever livingImmortal = latin (im=not)+(mortalis= mortal) = English not-mortal God will never die a mortal death = not mortal HS / Christ will never die a mortal death = not mortal Luk 23:46 And Yeshua, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I entrust My spirit.’” When He had said this, He breathed His last. Christ, the Son of God, left the body of Jesus and Jesus, the Son of Man died Adam and Eve had a choice – Tree of Life or knowledge of Good and Evil Eve choose knowledge over obedience and life She and all her ‘seed’ became mortal by choosing itD: "Sinning flaws you and you only – your sin = your sin If I sin – the birds are unaffected – the mountains do not care R I see. So if sinning only affects me, why did Adam's first sin, affect me?Because man is not an angel without a choice Because man is not an animal without a choice Because man is special (Gen 2:7) we are the creature that can / could choose Eve choose yester ra Does this mean that all DNA for her children changed Or – is Eve just an example of mankind and we all suffer from yester ra All us – ‘seeds’of Eve – all men sin – because all men are animals emotional remark : got ya there LOL giggle back at ya( Aside: Some Christians including my own SDA say Man is born sinful. Some including SDA say man is not born sinful.Gnostic and Jewish – man is not born sinful – we are born in communion with God and this is why all babies are happy – until their (Mind/Body) develops to the point of expressing yester raWhich happens to us all – because we are all animals with yester ra instincts (self) Whenever Israel walks with God – their enemies fall- by the hand of God R: Hmm? What is an enemy to GOD? It can't be humans. Scripture say Jesus died while humans were sinning. The real enemy must be SIN itself.You do not have an accurate overview of the ahlWhenever Israel walks with God – their enemies fall- by the hand of God Israel’s enemies would have all their neighbors who worship an ‘other god’ (archon) Israel’s enemies would have been – and still are = MAN And Israel’s enemies (MAN) fell – by the hand of God So when is a person's probation of living ended? God cannot wound anyone. That means remove any chance of them choosing salvation. (Much worse a sin, than just killing a person.)Not quite sure what you mean here Hebrews 9:27 – man is to die ONCE then the judgment Most all Christians preach this as proof of no reincarnation That means remove any chance of them choosing salvation. (Much worse a sin, than just killing a person.) YES! – if you are Catholic it is Hebrews 9:27 and you chance of salvation is over If you are Jewish or Gnostic – there is a provision for purification in heaven – proportional punishment IF you are Jewish or Gnostic – there is a provision for a ‘do-over’ - reincarnation Does not say it happens all the time to everyone – just says there is the provision for those would did not do what they were supposed to – or learn what they were supposed to The daughters of Job? Little Jimmy? – who died for someone else’s testing Does not say Obviously the SIN takes over and rules over you, searing your conscience, removing your will to choose, so eventually you cannot choose salvation any more; and so you have died already whilst alive in your sinning. You would wound others if allowed to live on, so GOD removes your influence. It's called a strange act in KJV for a reason. Justice and mercy together with grace and sternness.OK – rules over you – I have resisted this term all this time – now I will give a littleGod made ra – as a necessary part of his creation It's called a strange act in KJV for a reason. Justice and mercy together with grace and sternness. God made the baboon I am in a cage with baboon – do they control my thoughts? No But – they can cause my yester ra to express itself – sin This is every man Some men become consumed with their yester ra – psychopaths In these cases – their yester ra rules them – dominates their thinking 1- this is just (Mind/Body) brain 2- or this is possession by an evil spirit Both can rule a man My point = 99.9% of people are not possessed by an evil spirit ruling them 99.9% of people are so lost in SELF – their yester ra is all that is required The 1% that are possessed King Solomon tells us this sometime = disease or mental illness David Ike (a secularist) tells us that this 1% is primarily the 13 families that rule our world He say why would any man give his life for a conspiracy that would never unfold in his life time Answer – it is not a man – but an archon using this man to facilitate the conspiracy This 1% for me also include politicians and Hollywood (some not all) Because it only take 1 serpent to spoil the garden (I see RA as a fruit of sin, the consequences of missing GOD).Ra can be the fruit of sinYou are making a false comparison – example All men that have a cold sneeze – therefore all men who sneeze have a cold All men that have a cold cough – therefore all men who cough have a cold All men who have ARC are HIV + - therefore all HIV+ men have ARC These are call false comparisons My science prediction, a science idea must have predictions. In the Edenic world C 14 radioactive would not have existed, this is a ra. Lets assume C14 did not exist until 1400 years later, and the rocks, coal and fossils only had some little amounts of C14 in them, relative to the normal C12. What would this do to Carbon 14 dating systems? Science assumes the amount of C14 to C12 remains stable in the past. You are close – but not close enoughC14 is only valid for about 4000 years and dependable up to about 12-14000 years C14 does not even take man back to the last ice age And you are correct Science assumes the amount of C14 to C12 remains stable in the past. And this is a false assumption To look farther into the past - other isotopes are used that do not decay as fast But the same assumption is made the amount available is stable WEDD begins with a Jupiter sized gas giant protoplanet There was a lot more of everything in the past – before the flood This small detail causes the measured time lie to telescope 1,2,3 becomes 10, 25, 75, 250, 25,000, 1 million , 10 million, 1000 million and on and on Richard Walker, Texas A&M, sent 3 T rex sample off for independent dating He got back 70M yrs – 62M yrs and 13,000 years – he published His book is not in print and he was let go from the university Another prediction, if RA is a the results of sinning, all radiation is produced because the atoms themselves also wear out and decay because of sin, hence this physical chemistry should be irrational, unpredictable and totally unreliable as a tool over time. Such decay would at best only seem to follow physical laws.Gnostic – yesterday would say – see this is a flawed world – this world is the corruption Nag Hammadi makes no such claim – Nag Hammadi was written by agl authors – the Nag Hammadi authors were certainly JewishYou comment about physical laws YES! God obeys His own laws – we see it in nature and we call is Physical laws = NATURE However you add when Adam sinned, a different death came in affecting our immortality...???I will leave you to explain how death has two completely different applications?OK – Is Adam one single guy – or is Adam man – a generality of mankind? Just as Job is every guy just as Lazareth was representative of all guys like him Either way – I am not offended And mankind had two choices – LIFE – or – KNOWLEDGE of tov and ra Mankind did not choose the tree of –LIFE – therefore we die just like all the other mortal creatures We were made immortal – had a chance to be immortal – but chose mortality D: "It will be interesting to see you write sometime without supporting your cherub chata god R I smiled. Hydroplate theory maybe?Personal favor – please begin with real science – WEDD Dr J. Marvin Herndon – Whole Earth Decompression Dynamics Google it – or at my website Once we have discussed it with you – I will introduce you to my addendum The Fluid Dynamics – of Whole Earth Decompression Theory After that we can discuss hydroplate crap in great depth and you will understand my answers D Then please explain to me what Psa 19:1 and Rom 1:1-20 mean R I see tov in God's creation, even though RA affects His creation. When I see flaws in our world, it reminds me of the sin problem. When you see flaws in your world, it reminds you GOD designed it that way.Col 4:2 Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with thanksgiving. 1Th 5:16 Rejoice always, 1Th 5:17 pray constantly, 1Th 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Messiah Yeshua. 1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude—through this we may offer worship in a manner pleasing to God, with reverence and awe. Our thinking is different Dave.AND - don't you see the differenceyou look and you see your satan - you just admitted it I look and see God's hand in the world - amazing - scripture is alive - AWEDave introduces a new idea:Not new - posted Jewish videos about this a year ago for you"shad" 7700, breast/demon. (also spelt "shed") H8163 - שָׂעִר שָׂעִיר - - devil, goat, satyr. (A Chimera) Interesting. (Pity this Hebrew word is only used twice?) Regardless – there they are in the Torah/Tanak + Lilith + evil spirits Without any clarification in the Torah/Tanak Jewish demonology comes from King Solomon So Dave why do we have angels, which in our theology we call Satan? Why does GOD have angels doing bad jobs such as recording man's sins? What was JOB for?
I don't see how the angels fit, when you have archons testing man to sin? Why do you have both?D: "Satan is an angel in service of the Lord 1- Satan is a verb – any being performing that function (that verb) is called a satan God was a satan to Balaam Peter was a satan to Jesus There is no one angel or archon whose name = satan Any archon, angel, or man who is being A satan – is called a satanPlease explain to me how you see two different kinds of creatures: (1) Shad (2) Cherub Explain to me how shad (shed) is different in the NT, and NOT of angelic origin?Angels – created to serve God – there are zillions of them throughout the multiverse doing many different assignments and task – the heavens are endless and filled with life and activity Sometimes – these angels are assigned duties that involve man Sometimes these duties are as guardian angel And in the case of Job (if that satan was an angel) sometimes their assignments is to test man The Jews and Christians both have 9 or 10 different ranks – different species – different types of angels Seraphim and cherubs near the top – to messengers – and at the bottom shedim / powers and principalities Each are different looking and different behavingThe principalities = rulers = archie Eph 6 and 1 Cor 1:16These are the lowest form of angels – at the bottom – the closest to mankindGnosticism – answers the question – they are not angels as the seraphim and cherub, but made of a different substance – archon Why are the archon / principalities closest to us – BECAUSE we are souljourning their world They were here first D: "Satan is an angel in service of the Lord R What services does Satan do, for man?Deu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. Was the serpent speaking to Eve an archon (Shad)?Rev 12:9 says archonWhy do you have two sources of testing man, "bad angels" and "archons"?1- if an angel is acting as the satan – he is obeying the Lord – this just make him the satan 2- Yes – archon can be a satan – if their influence works in you 3- Yes – other men can be a satan (Peter) - if they are taking you away from God 4- Yes – Body and its desires – cab be your own personal satan (Paul Rom 7) 5- Yes! – the world can be a satan 6- Yes! – jobs, hobbies, debt, anxiety, war, public advertising, what my girls hear in public Yes! There are all types of things that HINDER us Oppose our spiritual growth Gnostic – anti-awakening forces (remember that)Man is tested in so many ways – from so many different sources – There are many entities messing with us – manipulating us from the outside Why do you have two sources of testing man, "bad angels" (angels being a satan) and "archons"? Why do you call "testing man" a service that is functional? What's functional about it? 1- Scripture says God test man – to see if man loves God with all his Heart, Mind, and Soul 2- Scripture also tells us that God does not do the testing Himself And I say – God has a staff for that Perhaps I should say – God uses what is already there – to tov ends – Prov 16:4Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Dave you have a problem, "devil (shad) , Satan, and angel" are all the same creature kind.I have no problem at allThe great dragon = the serpent This is all this verse says Both of these names ‘great dragon’ and ‘serpent’ are also called by other names – sometimes they are called the devil – and sometimes they are called satan I have a dog, a cat, a horse, and a gold fish – all of them are called PETS None of them are the same God, Peter, great dragon, serpent are all called satan at one time or another None of them are the same --------------------------- D :"Time is not linear between me in Colorado and the satellites above my head Time is not linear in two airplanes moving in opposite directions SO your statements are not correct as I understand relative speeds of motion, hence time.Sorry Robert – I am speaking of observable and measurable events Hafele–Keating experiment – google itDid answer all your question - still working
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2020 14:32:28 GMT -5
D: "Most of these people do not church – and look at your vegetarian shark stuff and scoff They look at your 6 24hr days and scoff
The church has failed to keep pace with Daniel’s “Increased Knowledge” R: Always scoffers and mockers.... Scripture is scripture, doesn't change, but science has changed beliefs over the centuries.... Daniel's increased knowledge, refers to an increase in Biblical knowledge more than increases iin technology, but I guess it can refer to both too.
D :"The end result = we can learn all about Darwin in public school but we cannot even hear the word God near the school grounds R so true
Power black out. 3:52 AM
D Christ, the Son of God, left the body of Jesus and Jesus, the Son of Man died R So GOD never really died for our missing Dave, only a body of matter did? It says in torah, life for life... You didn't explain what Adam lost upon His sinning?
D All us – ‘seeds’of Eve – all men sin
R OK epi-genetics so sinning itself can function as a ruler over even the unborn? D Gnostic and Jewish – man is not born sinful – we are born in communion with God and this is why all babies are happy – until their (Mind/Body) develops to the point of expressing yester ra R nice
D Israel’s enemies would have been – and still are = MAN
R Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.(KJV)
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
These verses say SIN causes problems not MAN per se,
D: "OK – rules over you – I have resisted this term all this time – now I will give a little R GOOD, than you have to understand all the problems GOD deals with is about SIN, not about creatures He created, but the actions these creatures are free to do.
D: "I am in a cage with baboon – do they control my thoughts? No R Bad analogy. I live with my DNA – does my DNA influence my thoughts? Yes
Was Adam's DNA wired with RA in the beginning? Absolutely not. Than how could a serpent have tricked Eve to disobey GOD, if she was coded to do tov only.
Torah says serpent was subtil, crafty and clever, He has to make ra seem tov, otherwise nobody would decide to disobey. Actually it was Eve's mistake that caused her demise, she said "lest you touch it"
The serpent corrected here and said, this is not true. He didn't say about the eating. He was using her word and twisting them. If Eve had yester ra already in her, as you claim, getting her to sin would have been dead easy. It's dead easy to get a reformed alcoholic to start drinking again.... but not one who has never been tempted to drink alcohol. I can walk into a pub and not be bothered by drunks there.
Once the serpent got Eve to sin by eating the fruit, Satan used her to get at Adam. Once they both sinned , the father of lies, now became a ruler over mankind, and mankind received "condemnation" a court term judges impose upon you. Romans 5 talks of this. You mock this idea by saying rulers do not dictate all the things you do, no they don't, they just have judicial dominion on you, like the silly idea when I was born, I was registered as a citizen of the Australian Government, like a judicial dominion over me.
D: "Some men become consumed with their yester ra – psychopaths In these cases – their yester ra rules them – dominates their thinking 1- this is just (Mind/Body) brain 2- or this is possession by an evil spirit
Both can rule a man My point = 99.9% of people are not possessed by an evil spirit ruling them 99.9% of people are so lost in SELF – their yester ra is all that is required R nice
Why didn't you admit this ruling influence before? But you are correct.
R: "I see RA as a fruit of sin, the consequences of missing GOD). D: "Ra can be the fruit of sin
R You need to do an OT study on this word, where does Torah imply RA has nothing to do with SIN problem?
RA is always a fruit of sin.
Natural RA, which a term I coined, is a more subtle form of physical sins, What I find clever about GOD, who creates some RA affects is how RA can be used to control further sinning so we sinners have more time to choose GOD. For example decay of food waste, is a great RA. Autumn is a great RA, removes predators. These are examples of RA doing good, but only in a world of SIN, that normally self destructs. You posted me many examples how GOD uses sin to His advantage, making tov come from it. But the bottom line is RA in all it's forms came from SIN and GOD dealing with the SIN problem.
D: "To look farther into the past - other isotopes are used that do not decay as fast But the same assumption is made the amount available is stable R so take a different time decay clock, if NO RA existed 1400 years into Adam's sinning, would this have affected particle decay of atoms? So this proves RA never existed before Adam sinned, and only after sin did atoms also begin to decay. Hence as a clock they are irrational and not reliable.
D: "Richard Walker, Texas A&M, sent 3 T rex sample off for independent dating He got back 70M yrs – 62M yrs and 13,000 years – he published
R yes Don Paton did the same. Dating fossils is a waste of time. You can't even date human fossils who died 300 years ago, to be reliable. Science seeks a desired result, rejects answers they don't like.
D We were made immortal – had a chance to be immortal – but chose mortality R Our ongoing living came from eating contnuously the tree of living. Same as Revelation 22. We eat of the tree of living, and experience ongoing living. Only GOD is immortal.
D: "Our thinking is different Dave.
AND - don't you see the difference you look and you see your satan - you just admitted it
R :there you go again, bringing in Satan again....
No Dave, SIN wrought in the decay of my perfect world, Adam's SIN. Nobody else. I worship a powerful GOD who created a perfect world, but now gently deals with Adam's SIN problem, and my walking in my sinning.
You worship a weaker God who creates both functional things and dysfunctional things, which are missing GOD,, yet you say God sees this missing of perfection as good. No way. It's missing perfection. That's what dysfunctional means. Poorly designed.
D: "There is no one angel or archon whose name = satan Any archon, angel, or man who is being A satan – is called a satan R OK.
D: "Seraphim and cherubs near the top – to messengers – and at the bottom shedim / powers and principalities R Dave I am a details person. Sorry. I evaluate everything carefully.
Show me the OT torah where serephim is cherub, It's not. Seraphim is a word meaning burning. A functional description of a creature, not a named creature.
For example painter, carpenter and plumber are functional descriptors of adam, the human creature.
The only Hebrew word I see about heavenly messengers are cherub.
Show me differently, if I am wrong, use the torah OT first.
D : "The principalities = rulers = archie Eph 6 and 1 Cor 1:16
These are the lowest form of angels – at the bottom – the closest to mankind
R Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Shad)
But Shad in the NT is the same as Satanas, and angels, all are the same creature ?
Eph 6:12 For <hoti> we <hemin> wrestle <pale> not <ou> against <esti> <pros> flesh <sarx> and <kai> blood <haima>, but <alla> against <pros> principalities <arche>, against <pros> powers <exousia>, against <pros> the rulers <kosmokrator> of the darkness <skotos>
"arche" means "first" some creatures who sinned first, before man sinned.
Rules of darkness, some creatures went dark before man went dark.
You have the job to prove archons are not angels.... a different creature kind.... please, I asked you for evidence. OH
D: "Gnosticism – answers the question – they are not angels as the seraphim and cherub, but made of a different substance – archon
R SO only Gnsoticism answers the questions, what does torah say?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
If you can't find evidence in Moses torah, then your scrolls are deceiving you. Simple.
D: "Satan is an angel in service of the Lord R What services does Satan do, for man?
D: Deu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. R Dave that does not answer my question. What verses speak of any angel doing services for man than?
Try this one
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. The real translation should be
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels (a medium), and his ministers a flame of fire. Angels are a medium for carrying God's love via the HS to mankind.
That's one service angels do.
Now I asked you for services "so called bad angels" do for man?
Deu 8:2 says Adonai Jesus looks over man and tests man to see if man loves him.
No mention of angels here.
Does love require a response? Yes
Otherwise it not love.
How do humans respond to providing love? By supporting that love using God's words. Hab 2:4 Behold, the just shall live by his faith.
R: "Why do you have two sources of testing man, "bad angels" and "archons"? D: "1- if an angel is acting as the satan – he is obeying the Lord – this just make him the satan 2- Yes – archon can be a satan – if their influence works in you 3- Yes – other men can be a satan (Peter) - if they are taking you away from God 4- Yes – Body and its desires – cab be your own personal satan (Paul Rom 7) 5- Yes! – the world can be a satan 6- Yes! – jobs, hobbies, debt, anxiety, war, public advertising, what my girls hear in public Yes! There are all types of things that HINDER us Oppose our spiritual growth Gnostic – anti-awakening forces (remember that)
R Hmm? Dave you haven't answered my question, Are you telling me there is not a scrap of evidence that archons even exist as a separate creature to angels?
John lists our sources of influence
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (KJV)
We either LOVE GOD, or we LOVE SIN, the world has a marketing of sin products, materialism, consumerism, party central, wasting time, etc, thing in the world.
D: "1- Scripture says God test man – to see if man loves God with all his Heart, Mind, and Soul 2- Scripture also tells us that God does not do the testing Himself And I say – God has a staff for that
R OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself?
Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Poor translation, a Messenger from YHWH was sent to test humans, whose Father's Name is in HIM. Now who could that be? An angel? no, Yashua YHWH? Yes
D: "I have a dog, a cat, a horse, and a gold fish – all of them are called PETS None of them are the same
God, Peter, great dragon, serpent are all called satan at one time or another None of them are the same
R Dave you hve to look carefully at all the contexts to figure out a function, verses the name of a creature. Mankind is a creature termed in Hebrew as "adam", meaning from dust "adamah". Angels is a creature termed in Hebrew "cherub".
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, These Hebrew words are functions about a creature, not labelled here. Not as you claim, different species of creatures. How do I know, cross reference every Hebrew word to see all the contexts.
For example is "cherub" ever used for anything else except a name of a creature?
Ex 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
Here the cherub made of gold was an image of a real cherub, who guards God's throne.
Ps 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. Some might say this a poetry parallel, the angels are HS functions?
Or does the angels use the HS to fly about from?
See investigate all the sentences, than evualuate the claim.
D: "Sorry Robert – I am speaking of observable and measurable events Hafele–Keating experiment – google it R OH, OK. The two planes compared to earth, out by some mere 59 nanoseconds. OK But what I said was true, the affect only become apparent as frames of reference speed towards 1/2 the speed of light. 59 nanoseconds in not much is it? And your saying time on the earth changed? No only relative frames of reference changed. Motion changes time between bodies, time does not change if the body is moving relative to itself. (you still will post more) OK Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 21, 2020 18:56:39 GMT -5
Chata does not really mean "sin", but a broader term "missing". If GOD creates anything function, but also designs things dysfunctional, these are by definition, missing perfection, hence a "sin" to be missing total perfection.You are trying really hard – but – Sorry RobertTo be born with a birth defect is not a sin To be born retarded is not a sin And it is not a sin for a fruit to rot into the ground – to yield new life Sin is always ra – because you (man – the creature that can choose) have chosen a path that lead away from God For the fruit to rot – is simply nature OBEYING the laws of God - nature You cannot have a Being designing things functional and things dysfunctional, this by definition is "missing" something.Scripture says – God did it – therefore you accuse God of sinning How can creation be a sin if it is obeying God’s laws Rocks and trees obey God’s Law 1000% - they NEVER choose to disobey the Laws of natureBut in the torah, heavenly Beings move in living creatures, not pushing off matter, but flying in space, so friction is not required.Etherial - inter-dimensional - not corporeal not a valid argumentTake for example heat losses. What is a heat loss? A form of energy that is a character of GOD that is not fully obeying God's rules of character. I find it hard to describe such things, so I will stop.Because you are gropping - is heat loss an entropy? E cannot be created ot destroyed - only translated or transmuted Change is not always ra - sometimes change is required to keep the universe as God created it Day four - God lit the sun - radiations - fiusion - decay at an atomic level - Fire - comsumption of fuel - ra + ra + ra + ra but place in the heavens to serve a vital funstion - by God and 2 days laters called it tov D: "Most of these people do not church – and look at your vegetarian shark stuff and scoff They look at your 6 24hr days and scoff The church has failed to keep pace with Daniel’s “Increased Knowledge”R: Always scoffers and mockers.... Scripture is scripture, doesn't change, but science has changed beliefs over the centuries.... Seriously Robert – in all of my educational life – no one around me have ever supported creationism AS PRESENTEDCreationism as presented by ICR Here is the best way to describe reality to you A man spends 14 years of his life (at $100,000 at year) studying math Then this man spends the next 14 years of his life trying to prove – or disprove math problems at Nobel Prize Winning expertise The along comes creationism as makes the assumption – IF 2+2 equals something other than 4 Then creationism can build upon there error huge theories – but at the base of it all = error Because you use the term – scientist change their beliefs Its a perfect example – religion believes - science observes and measures And we are back to the gun and is the gun tov or ra If man uses the gun for ra – once it becomes easier to use it again and again Darwin on biology Darwin – just like the serpent did not lie Darwin was a great scientific mind and what did he discover Grasses came first – followed by small creatures – followed by larger creatures – and finally man Darwin re-discovered Genesis – his findings do not disagree with GenesisThe SIN – the error – the deception = Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, Instead – Most science must give credit to another cause In America – science is university based – therefore State Sponsored Or is it DARPA based – and therefore Deep State sponsored The masters behind the scenes (archon) won’t allow the truth of Intelligent Design to be told Do the archon do this by ‘ruling’ the scientist – by possessing them – by forcing them – NO! The archon – control the funding – at the top levels It has an impact to the men on the ground – but it does not control their thoughts To say all scientist are not believers in God – is a lie and an assumption Einstein was a JEW – his theory of relativity = 2 Peter 3:8 Does Einstein publish because it is scripture – NO – he mentions God nowhere in his published works Daniel's increased knowledge, refers to an increase in Biblical knowledge more than increases in technology, but I guess it can refer to both too.Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up the words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will run back and forth and knowledge will increase.’ Don’t forget the running to and fro Increased knowledge and running to and fro in the same sentence As if they go hand in hand What does knowledge have to do with transportation if it is not planes, trains, and automibiles? Power black out. 3:52 AM You should start a political movement in your community for another Tesla Battery What I read – it suffered much criticism at first – but has paid for itself and saved that area millions in coal D Israel’s enemies would have been – and still are = MANRo 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.(KJV) Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. These verses say SIN causes problems not MAN per se,OK – who acts it out – the trees? Or the Rocks? Both sinners according to you Sorry Robert – man does – man pulls the trigger of the gunD: "OK – rules over you – I have resisted this term all this time – now I will give a little R GOOD, than you have to understand all the problems GOD deals with is about SIN, not about creatures He created, but the actions these creatures are free to do.Your satan does not rule man – as in he forces us to do anything Your satan makes no decisions for man – he only talks – and talks – and talks Man is not possessed by your satan – we are not satan puppets
The choice is always man’s – to act upon it – to pull that triggerD: "I am in a cage with baboon – do they control my thoughts? No R Bad analogy. I live with my DNA – does my DNA influence my thoughts? YesNO – your DNA coded for your yester ra in the womb – and your yester ra does impact your thoghts / choices The baboon are not inside of me – they are not a part of me – they are separated and external beings that talk and talk – and talk – INFLUENCE – is not control Influence is only control when you choose to agree Both can rule a man My point = 99.9% of people are not possessed by an evil spirit ruling them 99.9% of people are so lost in SELF – their yester ra is all that is required R nice Why didn't you admit this ruling influence before? But you are correct.Because even the psychopath – serial killer – serial rapists – or even a cult leader – does not have to be possessed by and evil spirit to act on their own yester raQuestion – was Adolph Hitler a man acting as a man – or was Adolph Hitler possessed by a demon / Jinn / archon that forced him to make the choices that he did Answer – hard to know – my view – probably a little bit of both I am a Viet Nam Vet (I saw no action) but it is my generation and now Iraq + Iraq + Iraq + Bosnia + Rwanda + Venezuela + Nicaragua + + + + The guys at our local VA here – which is the same campus as our community Hospital – the reason I live here (work) are some amazing heroes Colonial Glenn Ramsey – what an amazing man – I miss his input He led some Army Pilots to resign from the US Army – then they flew their planes to Chinas and became the Chinese air force against the Japanese – before Pearl Harbor Once back to America – he was discharged and no one ever knew of his command until the 1970s and America’s opening to China Today – there is a movie about the Flying Tigers – This Forum member Larry – same VA – traumatized – victimized by war and what he did or saw All of these men suffered terrible sins – committed terrible sins – all these men are/were sinners Were they possessed? If two men breaking to your house and try to kill your wife Do you really need possession by an evil spirit to defend her as ferociously as possible? Or is your yester ra strong enough to take care of it all by itself? If you can answer that with great clarity – please come witness to these veterans R: "I see RA as a fruit of sin, the consequences of missing GOD). D: "Ra can be the fruit of sinR You need to do an OT study on this word, where does Torah imply RA has nothing to do with SIN problem? RA is always a fruit of sin.Isa 45:7 (YLT) Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil (RA is the fruit of my (God’s) sin), I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Sorry – Robert – doesn’t seem to fit R yes Don Paton did the same. Dating fossils is a waste of time. You can't even date human fossils who died 300 years ago, to be reliable. Science seeks a desired result, rejects answers they don't like.1- Well here is one of your scientist with as belief The Correct answer – it depends on the quality of sample 5 skeletons can be found together – let’s say they are 300 years old Because of the acidity of the soil – 2 of the skeletons ate lost to time But just inches away – a skeleton remains with bone marrow – excellent for dating And another few inches is a skeleton that has a sample – but it is not a good sample Take the case of the not good sample that yields questionable results – then Don Paton can say ‘Dating fossils is a waste of time’ – and he is not wrong But he is avoiding acknowledging the results of the ‘Good Sample’ D: "Seraphim and cherubs near the top – to messengers – and at the bottom shedim / powers and principalities R Dave I am a details person. Sorry. I evaluate everything carefully. Show me the OT torah where serephim is cherub, It's not. Seraphim is a word meaning burning. A functional description of a creature, not a named creature. The only Hebrew word I see about heavenly messengers are cherub. Show me differently, if I am wrong, use the torah OT first. ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/408/judaism-christianity-satan-rabbi-singeren.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelologywww.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1521-angelologyI started to copy and paste from the Jewish Encyclopedia – but there is too much there Chayot Ha Kodesh Ophanim Erelim Hashmallim Seraphim Malakim Elohim Bene Elohim Cherubim Ishim "manlike beings"
| Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10 Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10 Isaiah 33:7 Ezekiel 1:4 Isaiah 6 Messengers, angels "Godly beings" (Gnostic = heavenly beings) "Sons of Godly beings" (Gnostic - sons of heavenly beings) Hagigah 13b "manlike beings", see Genesis 18:2 Daniel 10:5
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ZoharThe Zohar, in Exodus 43a, also lists ten ranks of angels, beginning from the highest Rank Angelic Class 1 Malakim 2 Erelim 3 Seraphim 4 Chayot 5 Ophanim 6 Hashmallim 7 Elim 8 Elohim 9 Bene Elohim 10 Ishim Maseket AtzilutJacob Nazir, in his Maseket Atzilut, also listed ten ranks of angels, beginning from the highest Rank Angelic Class 1 Seraphim 2 Ophanim 3 Cherubim 4 Shinanim 5 Tarshishim 6 Ishim 7 Hashmallim 8 Malakim 9 Bene Elohim 10 Erelim Berit MenuchahAbraham ben Isaac of Granada, in his Berit Menuchah, also listed ten ranks of angels, beginning from the highest: Rank Angelic Class 1 Erelim 2 Ishim 3 Bene Elohim 4 Malakim 5 Hashmallim 6 Tarshishim 7 Shinnanim 8 Cherubim 9 Ophanim 10 Seraphim Reshit ChochmahEliyahu de Vidas, in his Reshit Chochmah, also listed ten ranks of angels, beginning from the highest: Rank Angelic Class 1 Chayot Ha Kodesh 2 Ophanim 3 Seraphim 4 Cherubim 5 Erelim 6 Tarshishim 7 Hashmallim 8 Elim 9 Malakim 10 Ishim This is such common knowledge and taught in every seminary Jewish or ChsristianD : "The principalities = rulers = archie Eph 6 and 1 Cor 1:16 These are the lowest form of angels – at the bottom – the closest to mankindR Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Shad) But Shad in the NT is the same as Satanas, and angels, all are the same creature ? Eph 6:12 "arche" means "first" some creatures who sinned first, before man sinned. Rules of darkness, some creatures went dark before man went dark. DUH – that would the First Archon and his offspring – Gen 1:2 – the First AgeD: "Gnosticism – answers the question – they are not angels as the seraphim and cherub, but made of a different substance – archon D: "1- Scripture says God test man – to see if man loves God with all his Heart, Mind, and Soul 2- Scripture also tells us that God does not do the testing Himself And I say – God has a staff for thatR OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself?DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. DUH – any angel that is given an assignment – does what he is told Angels obey God – that is their jobGod, Peter, great dragon, serpent are all called satan at one time or another None of them are the same R Dave you hve to look carefully at all the contexts to figure out a function, verses the name of a creature. Mankind is a creature termed in Hebrew as "adam", meaning from dust "adamah". Angels is a creature termed in Hebrew "cherub". OK – prove to me that when God was satn to Balaam God was a cherub And when Peter was a satan to Jesus – Peter was a cherub
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 14:32:25 GMT -5
D: "How can creation be a sin if it is obeying God’s laws R Do agnostics and aethists support God despite their sinnings? Yes Funny they pretend to hate GOD, yet wear clothes, love order, like social values, etc, They place their feet into both camps.
Fallen creation does the same thing. Decomposers are responding to a sinful world, because GOD engineers the response to SIN carefully, even for the atoms, the cycles of nature. Just because you see nice cycles of nature doing things, you think GOD designed it that way before SIN came into our world. That is an assumption.
You assume GOD created dysfunctional things, before SINNING occurred with mankind.
I assume GOD did not create anything dysfunctional, until after SINNING occurred with mankind.
How can we use Scripture to test these two different theories? As you see they are very different...
A the end of Creation GOD says this :"Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. Creation was functional, very functional, not dysfunctional. So it's your theory that does not fit the Torah of Moses.
D: "Change is not always ra - sometimes change is required to keep the universe as God created it
Day four - God lit the sun - radiations - fiusion - decay at an atomic level - Fire - comsumption of fuel - ra + ra + ra + ra but place in the heavens to serve a vital funstion - by God and 2 days laters called it tov R Again your assuming the SUN in the beginning always produces RA, UV gamma rays etc. Some science people think the Sun is powered by water and music, nothing to do with nuclear fusion idea. I suspect the Sun became missing is response to Adam's SIN, the first time He sinned.
"D" 2 days laters called it tov
R How strange, GOD calls something dysfunctional, functional? This is an oxymoron.
D: "Its a perfect example – religion believes - science observes and measures R wow, that is not so. True Science observes and measures, and supports true religion. Modern Science, the Darwin kind, is a religion, based on Naturalism, that all things can be esplained by matter, including the Uncaused Cause.
D: "Darwin – just like the serpent did not lie Darwin was a great scientific mind and what did he discover R Darwin sadly got caught up with false Christian religions, who did not show GOD correctly. When a daughter died, Darwin got mad and started a different theory. How common is the true concept of Christianity since Jesus founded it? It's not. Why we can't even study Hebrew words together and agree with their supposed meanings? Why is this so difficult? We can't even agree as to how to read a language system of words we cannot read, in the first place? When I battled with Jews in Jeff Benners forum befor eit closed down, not a single Jew was a believer in Yashua, or GOD, to begin with. They should not have been there on his forum. Even when I battled with John, my messanic Jew Christian, we sent over 100 emails over 2 years whether Jesus pre-existed or not. I am amazed at how we both read Hebrew words differently, as He only presented torah, unlike you, who presents both torah and Gnostic.
D: "The masters behind the scenes (archon) won’t allow the truth of Intelligent Design to be told Do the archon do this by ‘ruling’ the scientist – by possessing them – by forcing them – NO! The archon – control the funding – at the top levels
It has an impact to the men on the ground – but it does not control their thoughts
R Dave your words are so precise... does the one world order COV 19, have ruling elements ruling people all over the world? Yes or NO?
You can have people ruled simply by changing the media.
You can have people social conditioned by simply having schools that only talk about evolution, which is NOT, they say, a religion. Boy you are nitpicking, so the rulers do not personally dictate, but they set up policies that condition your thinking, and hence, rule over you. Don't be so pedantic.
Wearing a cloth mask is social conditioning, a ruler imposing stupid rules over mankind, so they can rule over you some more. Calling a non-existence germ a virus, is another example of ruling over mankind.
"The archon – control the funding – at the top levels" yep, your right, rulers rule over us.
D: "To say all scientist are not believers in God – is a lie and an assumption R Yes DOn Patton has spoken to many geologists over fossil records, to him privately they admit its a joke, but publically confess to evolution. Doctors are all forced to have vaccines to have a job. No choice. Mandatory. It this not rulers ruling over the medical system? I feel sorry for them, so young, so stupid, obey or lose your job. What choice is that?
D: "OK – who acts it out – the trees? Or the Rocks? Both sinners according to you R your funny. Just because MAN sinned, does not mean Rocks break moral laws, or trees? They are under the dominion of man, hence what happened to MAN also happened to Creation.
DO you understand this principle?
Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom,
A prince has a dominion, the prince rules over his dominion. You have a problem understanding what ruling means. Adam was a prince with a dominion. Just as Jesus is now our second Adam, given this same dominion as the rightful new prince, NOT Satan the prince of earth.
So when missing GOD happened because our Adam Prince did missing, the entire dominion experienced missing too.
D: "Your satan does not rule man – as in he forces us to do anything Your satan makes no decisions for man – he only talks – and talks – and talks Man is not possessed by your satan – we are not satan puppets
The choice is always man’s – to act upon it – to pull that trigger
R Hmm? Are we back here again. You do not have angels that choose to sin Dave, so why are you bothered by this? So let's not talk about something you do not believe in.
Instead, does the SIN of my Dad influence me to SIN, can my Dad rule over me?
Have a read of my letter to my Dad, written years before I met you, and see if the answer is yes. Of course the SIN of others influences others, people do RULE over other people. Especially the people in your zone of influence. Governments also rule over us indirectly, but they impose big laws that influence our decisions. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1057.htm to my Dad dying of cancer
D: "I live with my DNA – does my DNA influence my thoughts? Yes NO – R I see. How much of the USA rules ruling over you Dave, are affecting the way you live with COV19?
Is the COV19 ruling over you or not?
Here in my world, people do not care for COV19 ruling over them, they party, watch video, ignore the force getting stronger every day. Who cares they think?
D: "Because even the psychopath – serial killer – serial rapists – or even a cult leader – does not have to be possessed by and evil spirit to act on their own yester ra
R you are so wrong Dave, how many evil spirits did Jesus case out in his day? evil spirits are not archons by the way, but sinning angels who possess the mind.
D: "Or is your yester ra strong enough to take care of it all by itself? R Dave yester ra is just a term for SELF, the correct Hebrew word is BAAL (noun form or verb form). Once sin entered out world, BAAL changed to become a master of the nepesh, rather than GOD as master of the nepesh. You play word games, introducing new words. The Hebrew words are Baal. The English word is SELF. Scritpure says it like this:
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
D: "All of these men suffered terrible sins – committed terrible sins – all these men are/were sinners Were they possessed? R: Hmm? My understanding is a person has no real freedom to living. We either allow GOD as master of our nepesh, or we don't. If we choose not to, another medium allows a evil flow to flow into us. This evil medium is still controlled by the HS, but there is a different ruler. This is why the father of lies is an important Hebrew term.
A father is a provider, a source of things. The first angel who sinned is termed a father of lies, and he rules over you, if you allow this. That is my witness. You dislike this idea. Sorry.
D: "Isa 45:7 (YLT) Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil (RA is the fruit of my (God’s) sin), I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Sorry – Robert – doesn’t seem to fit R what doesn't fit? Are you having trouble seeing RA as evil? Why does GOD control evil? Because uncontrolled evil would cause a massive explosion and nobody would exist. Would you agree evil requires careful controlling?
I oftened wondered why the SUN doesn't blow up all at once? Obviously not a nuclear uncontrolled reaction, GOD carefully controls the explosions of evil, is what Isa 45:7 is saying.
D: "But he is avoiding acknowledging the results of the ‘Good Sample’ R Don has recorded some geologists reject over half of their testings.
D: "I started to copy and paste from the Jewish Encyclopedia – but there is too much there R your evidence is so little, for example Isa 33:7, one Hebrew mention.
You list ten angels classes... is this a list of angelic functions or a list of different heavenly beings, as kinds?
You didn't answer my question.
Take the first hypothesis: "is Seraphim a different angelic creature kind, or a functional descriptor?
Let's assume if I can destroy one on your list, the others will also fall.
Jeff Benner:
V) ( S-RP) — Burn: [df: PrV] [freq. 118] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Pual, Piel, Participle) |kjv: burn, kindle, made| {str: 5635, 8313} Nm) ( S-RP) — Seraph: A venomous serpent from its burning venom. [df: PrV] [freq. 7] |kjv: fiery, serpent, seraphim| {str: 8314} Nf1) ( SR-PH) —
Both of these are forms of the same Hebrew letters,
Saraph verb means burning, saraph noun means burning being. They have to have the same meaning by differences of action.
Therefore I cannot see angelic beings are a burning being as a creature kind, its a functional descriptor.
Jesus is a burning being too, yet of different kind.
D: "DUH – that would the First Archon and his offspring – Gen 1:2 – the First Age R Dave you cannot show archons are even in Scritpure as a being, NOT of angelic origin.
I see archons as a term to desribe the first angels who chose to sin.
R OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself? D DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – R OK, show me a Job verse that says angels are testing man to get them to love God more.
D: "God, Peter, great dragon, serpent are all called satan at one time or another None of them are the same
R hang on a minute Dave: Are you sure? Satan noun, or satan verb, which word form was used? verb form is incomplete opposing, noun form is complete opposing.
Details matter.
Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's <'elohiym> anger <'aph> was kindled <charah> because he went <halak>: and the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah> stood <yatsab> in the way <derek> for an adversary <satan (verb form)> against him.
D: "OK – prove to me that when God was satn to Balaam God was a cherub And when Peter was a satan to Jesus – Peter was a cherub
cherub is a different kind of creature to elohiym kind and adam kind. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 22, 2020 16:05:28 GMT -5
I assume GOD did not create anything dysfunctional, until after SINNING occurred with mankind. How can we use Scripture to test these two different theories? As you see they are very different... A the end of Creation GOD says this :"Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. D: "Change is not always ra - sometimes change is required to keep the universe as God created it Day four - God lit the sun - radiations - fiusion - decay at an atomic level - Fire - comsumption of fuel - ra + ra + ra + ra but place in the heavens to serve a vital funstion - by God and 2 days laters called it tov R Again your assuming the SUN in the beginning always produces RA, UV gamma rays etc. Some science people think the Sun is powered by water and music, nothing to do with nuclear fusion idea. I suspect the Sun became missing is response to Adam's SIN, the first time He sinned. "D" 2 days laters called it tov Robert – you are bordering on crazness
God started the sun shining – but there was no mechanism to make it shine until Day 7 of creation This ranks right up there with vegetarian sharks and the Easter Bunny R How strange, GOD calls something dysfunctional, functional? This is an oxymoron.Evidently – God thinks the balance of nature is a tov – perfect – just as he created it Before man D: "Its a perfect example – religion believes - science observes and measures R wow, that is not so. True Science observes and measures, and supports true religion.See – to take odds with science True science can only reveal God’s Handiwork – nothing elseDarwin on biology Darwin – just like the serpent did not lie Darwin was a great scientific mind and what did he discover Grasses came first – followed by small creatures – followed by larger creatures – and finally man Darwin re-discovered Genesis – his findings do not disagree with Genesis Are you now saying that Genesis did not happen in this order Are you so represses that you cannot even admit thatThe SIN – the error – the deception = Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, I battled with Jews in Jeff Benners forum befor eit closed down, not a single Jew was a believer in Yashua, or GOD, to begin with. They should not have been there on his forum. AND this is one of the reasons it is no longer open to us It was not a forum for Christian BattelsThe archon – control the funding – at the top levels It has an impact to the men on the ground – but it does not control their thoughts R Dave your words are so precise... does the one world order COV 19, have ruling elements ruling people all over the world? Yes or NO? You can have people ruled simply by changing the media. You can have people social conditioned by simply having schools that only talk about evolution, which is NOT, they say, a religion. NO ROBERT - STRONGLY FDISAGREE Just because there is a new virus on the horizion – it does not change the way I choose GodWearing a cloth mask is social conditioning, a ruler imposing stupid rules over mankind, so they can rule over you some more. And just how does this affect FAITH and your gnosis of God? Even if you are infected by that virus – there is no evidence it takes over your thoughts to force you to deny GodChoice belongs to man – no one forces you to chooseInstead, does the SIN of my Dad influence me to SIN, can my Dad rule over me? This belong to your next Bible study Gen 4:12D: "I live with my DNA – does my DNA influence my thoughts? Yes NO – R I see. How much of the USA rules ruling over you Dave, are affecting the way you live with COV19?What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or not If I wear a mask – if I go to church – If I drink coffee – or if I follow the posted speed limit What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or notDoes the world get to decide for you if you follow God or no?. D: "Isa 45:7 (YLT) Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil (RA is the fruit of my (God’s) sin), I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Sorry – Robert – doesn’t seem to fit R what doesn't fit? You mandate – that ra is only the result of sin And God created the ra – therefore God must have sinned YOUR LODGIC – not mineD: "DUH – that would the First Archon and his offspring – Gen 1:2 – the First Age R Dave you cannot show archons are even in Scritpure as a being, NOT of angelic origin. I see archons as a term to desribe the first angels who chose to sin. R OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself? D DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – R OK, show me a Job verse that says angels are testing man to get them to love God more.To get them to love God – nice way to pervert the truth of scriptureJer 17:10 I Adonai search the heart, I try the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds. Psa 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. Jer 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause. Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.” (GEE – whatever could this passage mean?) Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. God Test ManJas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. But God does not do it directly – Himself = he has a staff for thatD: "God, Peter, great dragon, serpent are all called satan at one time or another None of them are the same D: "OK – prove to me that when God was satn to Balaam God was a cherub And when Peter was a satan to Jesus – Peter was a cherub cherub is a different kind of creature to elohiym kind and adam kind. Each different – and each called a satan at one time or anotherMY POINT EXACTLY
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 14:31:11 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" AND this is one of the reasons it is no longer open to us It was not a forum for Christian Battels R Jeff's Forum was for Christians who support Jeff, those agnostics should not have been there. D: "NO ROBERT - STRONGLY FDISAGREE Just because there is a new virus on the horizion – it does not change the way I choose God R Really? We will see. Soon the "Virus" will introduce mandatory vaccines for you, to help the world get herd immunity, whatever these words mean.
The "Virus" will , now already is, ruling the entire world, soon will influence your decisions against God.
Re 13:16 And "the VIRUS" causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
We will see Dave, this ruling power is slowly ruling over us more and more. Even opposes GOD.
D: "Even if you are infected by that virus – there is no evidence it takes over your thoughts to force you to deny God R technically Dave the VIRUS doesn't exist biologically, the VIRUS is another label for the RULING POWERS who RULE over us. The rulers who rule come closer and closer taking your freedom to choose God from you.
D: "What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or not If I wear a mask – if I go to church – If I drink coffee – or if I follow the posted speed limit What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or not
R 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. The RULER who rules is coming like a disease, a VIRUS even, a ruling power, which forces you to abandon your free will powers to choose GOD. This VIRUS is naturalism, does not support GOD, and is opposed to GOD. It's a religious power that hates God.
If you choose to do any of its socal conditioning things, you are slowly allowing it's ruling power to rule more over you.
D: "You mandate – that ra is only the result of sin And God created the ra – therefore God must have sinned YOUR LOGIC – not mine
R Dave you asked me to listen to Rabbi Friedman, I did. You know torah has many levels of understanding, yet you refuse to use this about RA. God does not create RA because He can, God creates RA so sinners see their sin, how else can something that does not normally exist, now be allowed to exist, unless GOD controls it carefully?
How does light and people make umbra shadows? The darkness is caused by you, not GOD, yet GOD has to shine upon you to make the shadow visible, even shine less brightly so the sin can be seen.
God would never create RA for any reason, other than to show sinners sinning.
You imply God intentionally makes faulty matter and calls this very functional. Oxymoron. Weird.
Functional cannot also be dysfunctional Dave, these terms are oppposites.
D DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – R OK, show me a Job verse that says angels are testing man to get them to love God more. D To get them to love God – nice way to pervert the truth of scripture
R not a single verse in Job showing angels (either good or bad) helping / testing man, to love GOD more? Job is about how GOD saves Job and boasts to an Opposer about it. The Opposer disagrees and so a battle begins. Got nothing to do with testing. Job's salvation was perfectly complete, as Job 1 says.
D: "Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
God Test Man
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one.
But God does not do it directly – Himself = he has a staff for that
R Dave we have studied this before, same Hebrew word: used for both conrasts. The positive use is "try, test" the negative use is "tempt to do evil".
So GOD does not test us to do evil, but tests us to love Him more. SO God tests us to make us love Him more, Not test us to do more sinning so we love GOD less.
"he has a staff for that'" you have yet to show me a single verse where angels test man to love GOD more. There are Bible verses where some angels tempt man to love God less, by getting them to sin.
You are taking for example barak and using it as two words. It's one word.
Barak means bless. It's opposite meaning is curse. Both are used in our Bibles. It does not mean GOD has a department for cursing.
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Rabbi Friedman, nice talk:
9 hours after created 10th hour ate from tree snake made me do it Adam did NOT have a evil inclination in him, but sinned so quickly pain than you die (not what GOD said, daily dying you die) fashioned out of earth breathed soul, male and female soul invest you into body of earth, elevate world and make it holier than my world we are supposed to fix this world, so man fixs the tree we need fixing, so we eat it, or some day we ea of it. Eve says , GOD wants us to eat from it. World of mortality.
Much of what our Rabbi says is subtle and misleading:
(1) Why do we assume Adam sinned an hour later after seeing the tree? What happen to the Sabbath, which is the first sinless Sabbath man enjoyed, the Creation cannot be completed until the Sabbath is also created with sinning in it. So Adam did not, could not have sinned an hour later. Silly idea.
(2) "breathed soul, male and female soul" No such thing as male and female souls.... (3) invest you into body of earth, elevate world and make it holier than my world... since when does GOD create a lower world on purpose? (4) Eve says , GOD wants us to eat from it. wow? really? (5) pain than you die , not what God said. "really? " God said the day you eat you dying die. Sounds like a living death experience to me? The Hebrew muwth is repeated twice. My understanding is Adam did not sin, until at least 30 years later.... go figure.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 24, 2020 7:16:14 GMT -5
Robert – I have taken a lot of time to respond to all your questions with as honest and serious as I can be – heartfelt – academically serious You are not responding in kind You are not being academically serious – you not even being serious at all – so disappointingYou deliberated misquote me – then argue against your own imaginary delisusion I SAY!God Test ManJas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. But God does not do it directly – Himself = he has a staff for that SO – YOUR RESPONSE ISR OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself? D DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – R OK, show me a Job verse that says angels are testing man to get them to love God more. MY RESPONCETo get them to love God more – nice way to pervert the truth of scripture D" AND this is one of the reasons it is no longer open to us It was not a forum for Christian Battels R Jeff's Forum was for Christians who support Jeff, those agnostics should not have been there.I am sorry that you do not think the study of scripture – in any form – should not be open to some people Spoken like a devout Catholic!Dan was a Rabbi and a Cantor – Hal was associated in some way with the Hebrews study department of Stanford – and you treated them the same as you treat me This is why you think a discussion must be a Battel If you choose to take words or themes out of context – alter them to suit yourself – twist them into something unrelated – all of your discussions will be battels D: "NO ROBERT - STRONGLY DISAGREE Just because there is a new virus on the horizion – it does not change the way I choose God R Really? We will see. Soon the "Virus" will introduce mandatory vaccines for you, to help the world get herd immunity, whatever these words mean. We will see Dave, this ruling power is slowly ruling over us more and more. Even opposes GOD.Whose Gospel are you promoting here? There must be something RULING you – because it sure is not common senceWhat does cancer have to do with me choose God or not? What does diabetes have to do with me choose God or not? What does taking a vaccine – or refusing a vaccine have to do with me choosing God or not? If any outside power – force – influence – can talk you into denying God Then you do not gnosis the LordD: "What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or not If I wear a mask – if I go to church – If I drink coffee – or if I follow the posted speed limit What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or notChristianity is not a GAME to play at Robert!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 15:19:24 GMT -5
Dave I have taken a lot of time to respond to all your questions with as honest and serious as I can be – heartfelt – academically serious
You are not responding in kind You are not being academically serious – you not even being serious at all – so disappointing
When I asked you for a single verse for any "angel that tests mankind", you do not supply me any? I hope you understand the difference between "test (positive)" and "tempt (negative)"? I will try to help you so you understand what I am asking of you.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire ?
Paul in Hebrews is answering a query. Many thought angels were helping man in minstry, just as you claim.
But Paul here is saying the angels do not come close to Jesus, ONLY GOD is "spirit" and "fire"?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (KJV)
SO this is the only sentence about angels, in the NT we have. Sadly it uses a Greek word only once:
"leitourgikos" meaning? So help me out so I can help you, what does this word mean?
Ac 13:2 As <de> they <autos> ministered <leitourgeo> to the Lord <kurios>, and <kai> fasted <nesteuo>, the Holy <hagios> Ghost <pneuma> said <epo>, <de> Separate <aphorizo> me <moi> <te>
So the angels help GOD, serve GOD.
Heb 10:11 And <kai> <men> every <pas> priest <hiereus> standeth <histemi> daily <kata> <hemera> ministering <leitourgeo> and <kai> offering <prosphero> oftentimes <pollakis>
SO angels help GOD, serve GOD.
Now do we have any evidence that angels test man?
Ps 26:2 Examine <bachan> me, O LORD <Y@hovah>, and prove <nacah> me; try <tsaraph> my reins <kilyah> and my heart <leb>.
The Hebrew word here is to refine, purge, metal was heated and belted to make it purer.
Notice GOD does this, not angels.
Jer 6:22 Thus saith <'amar> the LORD <Y@hovah>, 27 I have set <nathan> thee for a tower <bachown'> and a fortress <mibtsar> among my people <`am>, that thou mayest know <yada`> and try <bachan> their way <derek>.
Here is a different Hebrew word, bachan, meaning to Test His people, but YHWH does this Himself.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD <Y@hovah> search <chaqar> the heart <leb>, I try <bachan> the reins <kilyah>, even to give <nathan> every man <'iysh> according to his ways <derek>, and according to the fruit <p@riy> of his doings <ma`alal>.
Same Hebrew word, but only YHWH does this, no mention of angels.
Now let's try JOB, 5 references to bachan:
(1) Job 7:15 So that my soul <nephesh> chooseth <bachar> strangling <machanaq>, and death <maveth> rather than my life <`etsem>. 16 I loathe <ma'ac> it; I would not live <chayah> alway <`owlam>: let me alone <chadal>; for my days <yowm> are vanity <hebel>. 17 ¶ What is man <'enowsh>, that thou shouldest magnify <gadal> him? and that thou shouldest set <shiyth> thine heart <leb> upon him? 18 And that thou shouldest visit <paqad> him every morning <boqer>, and try <bachan> him every moment <rega`>? 19 How long <mah> wilt thou not depart <sha`ah> from me, nor let me alone <raphah> till I swallow down <bala`> my spittle <roq>? 20 I have sinned <chata'>; what shall I do <pa`al> unto thee, O thou preserver <natsar> of men <'adam>?
Notice the questions asked? What is man? Mention of sinning, and O thou, the preserver of men? Who is this ? YHWH is, no mention of angels.
(2) Job 12:11 Doth not the ear <'ozen> try <bachan> words <millah>? and the mouth <chek> taste <ta`am> his meat <'okel>? Interesting sentence
(3) Job 23:1 ¶ Then Job <'Iyowb> answered <`anah> and said <'amar>, 2 Even to day <yowm> is my complaint <siyach> bitter <m@riy>: my stroke <yad> is heavier <kabad> than my groaning <'anachah>. 3 Oh that <nathan> I knew <yada`> where I might find <matsa'> him! that I might come <bow'> even to his seat <t@kuwnah>! 4 I would order <`arak> my cause <mishpat> before <paniym> him, and fill <male'> my mouth <peh> with arguments <towkechah>. 5 I would know <yada`> the words <millah> which he would answer <`anah> me, and understand <biyn> what he would say <'amar> unto me. 6 Will he plead <riyb> against <`immad> me with his great <rob> power <koach>? No; but he would put <suwm> strength in me. 7 There the righteous <yashar> might dispute <yakach> with him; so should I be delivered <palat> for ever <netsach> from my judge <shaphat>. 8 ¶ Behold, I go <halak> forward <qedem>, but he is not there; and backward <'achowr>, but I cannot perceive <biyn> him: 9 On the left hand <s@mo'wl>, where he doth work <`asah>, but I cannot behold <chazah> him: he hideth <`ataph> himself on the right hand <yamiyn>, that I cannot see <ra'ah> him: 10 But he knoweth <yada`> the way <derek> that I take <`immad>: when he hath tried <bachan> me, I shall come forth <yatsa'> as gold <zahab>.
Notice Job is asking about HIM? WHo is HIM?
angels? no YHWH? yes
Again the left hand and the right hand of YHWH is mentioned here, no mention of any department helping GOD.
(4) Job 34:3 For the ear <'ozen> trieth <bachan> words <millah>, as the mouth <chek> tasteth <ta`am> meat <'akal>.
(5) Job 34:36 My desire <'abeh> <'ab> is that Job <'Iyowb> may be tried <bachan> unto the end <netsach> because of his answers <t@shuwbah> for wicked <'aven> men <'enowsh>.
SO this is an academic study Dave, is it not, something I simply asked you to do, if you believe in something you must have lots of evidence for your belief?
Now there are cased of the Hebrew word malak used, but this means messenger, not necessarily angels.
D: "I am sorry that you do not think the study of scripture – in any form – should not be open to some people Spoken like a devout Catholic! R Dave if you go to Jeff Benner's forum, you should find people learning to support His ideas. Not people who do not even know Jeff Benner, and know nothing of His research.
I didn't come here because I am Catholic wanting to mock you, I came because you are willing to discuss torah, because you spoken about why Jesus died. You are also a Prepper.
D: " If you choose to take words or themes out of context – alter them to suit yourself – twist them into something unrelated – all of your discussions will be battels R How do I take words out of context?
DO does one study word meanings Dave?
Use Strong's ? no Use a dictionary? no Use the opinions of scholars? no
Line upon Line, command upon command, you use the torah itself ? yes
That's what sola scriptoria means.
I will ask you for an example, because I am interested in your views:
Lu 24:27 And <kai> beginning <archomai> at <apo> Moses <Moseus> and <kai> <apo> all <pas> the prophets <prophetes>, he expounded <diermeneuo> unto them <autos>
What does "diermeneuo" mean? And therefore what was Jesus doing for these two men?
I asked this question to Hebrew scholars in Jeff's forum. I would like your opinion.
Shalom my friend
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Post by Dave on Oct 24, 2020 15:49:25 GMT -5
When I asked you for a single verse for any "angel that tests mankind", you do not supply me any? R OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself? D DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – R OK, show me a Job verse that says angels are testing man to get them to love God more.To get them to love God more – nice way to pervert the truth of scriptureJer 17:10 I Adonai search the heart, I try the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds. Psa 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. Jer 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause. Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.” (GEE – whatever could this passage mean?) Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. God Test ManJas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. But God does not do it directly – Himself = he has a staff for that D: " If you choose to take words or themes out of context – alter them to suit yourself – twist them into something unrelated – all of your discussions will be battels R How do I take words out of context?R OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself? D DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – R OK, show me a Job verse that says angels are testing man to get them to love God more.To get them to love God more – nice way to pervert the truth of scripture I say God test man You pervert it into - man is tested to love God more Then go on a big rant of how your own statement is nonsense
Who is winning your argument against yourself R OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself?Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Over and over I point out to you that you do not have a complete overview of the ahl You really have a poor understanding of the agl as wellStop forcing scripture to be single words – out of context God Test ManBut God does not do it directly – Himself = he has a staff for that The agl says this – why would you question it?
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Post by Dave on Oct 24, 2020 22:07:48 GMT -5
I hope you understand the difference between "test (positive)" and "tempt (negative)"?
You are tested by God – God does it You are tempted by this world and the archon as God established in Gen 3:15- God did it As God established in the Book of Job - God ordered it WORD GAME You are desperately trying to defend a manmade doctrine – is it working? . We will see Dave, this ruling power is slowly ruling over us more and more. Even opposes GODWhose Gospel are you promoting here?There must be something RULING you – because it sure is not common senceWhat does cancer have to do with me choosing God or not? What does diabetes have to do with me choosing God or not? What does taking a vaccine – or refusing a vaccine have to do with me choosing God or not? If any outside power – force – influence – can talk you into denying God Then you do not gnosis the LordD: "What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or not If I wear a mask – if I go to church – If I drink coffee – or if I follow the posted speed limit What does any of your statement have to do with choose God or not PLease explain yourself - why are you becoming less secure in God and His Salvation Why is this ruling power coming over you Why do you think your satan controls your thoughts - is there something your hiding?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 15:22:48 GMT -5
Jeff Benner
Grk#:3985 / pi-rad-zo (verb): Tempt Freq:&39 Heb#:5254 נסה / na-sah (verb): Test—A critical examination, observation, or evaluation; trial. Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted "H5254" , I am tempted "H5254" of God: for God cannot be tempted "H5254" with evil, neither tempteth "H5254" he any man:
OK Jeff Benner links the Greek word back to it's correct Hebrew word.
Notice GOD does not "H5254" he any man.
But you say GOD does, not directly but indirectly, He has angelic staff for "H5254" man.
I asked you for a Bible verse stating angels testing man, and you supply me with none. Is this not a simple request ?
"H5254" 34 references in the OT
Ge 22:1 ¶ And it came to pass after <'achar> these things <dabar>, that God <'elohiym> did tempt <nacah> Abraham <'Abraham>, and said <'amar> unto him, Abraham <'Abraham>: and he said <'amar>, Behold, here I am.
Wow, we have a problem already, does GOD "H5254" man or not. James says no?
Maybe a poor translation, the "Test/try" done by GOD, not angels.
Ex 15:25 And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved "H5254" them,
Here we see the context to "test/try" man, done by GOD, not angels.
Ex 16:4 that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Here we see the context to "test/try" man, done by GOD, not angels.
Ex 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
Here the KJV translates the word as a negative, rather than as a positive. Man's sinning, is trying to get GOD to react with tempting God.
Hebrew Dave, has two meanings in many words, it's positive meaning, like barak, means bless. And often because of the context of the sentence, it's negative meaning, as for barak, meaning to curse.
So "H5254" here is intented to be it's opposite meaning, ie "tempt"
"Try/test" is a function to see if man is loving God more.
"tempt" is the opposite function, to get man (or GOD) to love less.
Now English does not do this, we have different words for different meanings. Hebrew is different though.
Now I looked over all the other 34 verses, and not a single verse saying (angels "H5254" mankind).
SO don't get mad at me, all I asked you was a single verse anywhere where (angels "H5254" mankind). There are NOT any anywhere.
Sure GOD tests/tries man, but never does the opposite function, to get mankind to increase in sinning.
D: "I say God test man You pervert it into - man is tested to love God more
R well what is test/try man for? Why does GOD do this function?
I am not perverting anything.
All I asked is you to show me a verse where angels test man? there are not any. I will help you out
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Here GOD is declaring Job perfect and upright, and avoids RA.
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Notice an angel here written as hey-satan , a Being opposer, is actually opposing what GOD is declaring. This is what you would expect from the Hebrew meaning of "satan", a oppose function.
The verse does not say the angel is "H5254" man.
The angel is opposing God's statement that Job is perfect and upright.
You see this as the angel is testing man, I see your view, we have been throught this before, but the Hebrew words "H5254" is lacking, so it's just your viewpoint. What is see is the angel is written as hey-satan, and is opposing God's statement, because the Hebrew word oppose, demands this function. What you should look into is why does the angel oppose God's statement that Job is upright?
You see the angel coming as a court room official before GOD, but the Hebrew doesn't say this, only a meeting with other sons of elohiym. The only word we are sure of is the functional term hey-satan, and this suggests to me the angel functions as an adversary against GOD's statement that Job is upright and perfect. The rest of JOB depends upon your view of things. ------------------------------ On another subject, I was trying to be friendly to you, sure we can agree to disagree, your choice, but your a scholar, and I would like your opinion:
I will ask you for an example, because I am interested in your views:
Lu 24:27 And <kai> beginning <archomai> at <apo> Moses <Moseus> and <kai> <apo> all <pas> the prophets <prophetes>, he expounded <diermeneuo> unto them <autos>
What does "diermeneuo" mean? And therefore what was Jesus doing for these two men?
I asked this question to Hebrew scholars in Jeff's forum. I would like your opinion.
----------------------------------------------
On another theme, I asked you to supply me with an verse that says archons are creatures of matter, but not of angelic origin. You have NOT done this. You mentioned the Hebrew word for archon is "shed", but there is so little verses about this word in the OT torah.
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Rabbi Friedman,
(1) Why do we assume Adam sinned an hour later after seeing the tree? What happen to the Sabbath, which is the first sinless Sabbath man enjoyed, the Creation cannot be completed until the Sabbath is also created with sinning in it. So Adam did not, could not have sinned an hour later.
The entire week of Creation, ie seven day, has to be very functional, without sin in it. Yet your Rabbi has man sinning before the Sabbath day began.... Explain please... something is wrong?
Waiting for your comments.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 25, 2020 17:20:26 GMT -5
SO don't get mad at me, all I asked you was a single verse anywhere where (angels "H5254" mankind). There are NOT any anywhere.I am frustrated that you keep promoting a weak God and a strong satan - it borders on satanismWhen I asked you for a single verse for any "angel that tests mankind", you do not supply me any? R OK where's the Scripture that GOD asked angels to test mankind, Can't GOD test mankind Himself? D DUH – this would be the entire Book of Job – Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!” But – as you have already said months ago – you must deny this to maintain your doctrineI will help you out Notice an angel here written as hey-satan , a Being opposer, is actually opposing what GOD is declaring. This is what you would expect from the Hebrew meaning of "satan", a oppose function.So stupid – your satan opposes God then does exactly what God tells him to do = and stays within the limits God set for him If your satan truly opposed God – satan would have disobeyed GodHow in your right mind think satan is opposing God by being obedient!Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, Who is your serpent? For a year you have preached cherub cahta So – who is your serpent OH yes – the serpent was a Cherub that chata after the serpent deceived Eve The beginning only happens after the end - Who is your devil? Who is youer beast? Who is your dragon Are these angelic beings or not? I realize – you are trying your best to discredit them – make them disappear – make them not real Protect your evil two god ControversyD: "I say God test man You pervert it into - man is tested to love God more R well what is test/try man for? Why does GOD do this function? I am not perverting anything.First you argue that there is no tempting or trying of man Then you jump to the other end of the spectrum that God temps and trys and test you – so you love God more You are the one who told me you could not make a dog love you more by berating it Now you argue that God does it so we love Him more Make up you mind – which theology do you support NO such thing as – to love God more – BSWe are tempted by the world = because we are of the world God – looks into to our hearts – to see if – we are passing the test It is all up to you to repent – God never forces you to repent Your Choices are your own You see the angel coming as a court room official before GOD, but the Hebrew doesn't say this, only a meeting with other sons of elohiym. The only word we are sure of is the functional term hey-satan, and this suggests to me the angel functions as an adversary against GOD's statement that Job is upright and perfect. The rest of JOB depends upon your view of things. Now you play verse mixes – scramble ideas together so it sounds confusing1- angels do any job assigned to them by God – angels always obey God 2- sometimes – the job is to deliver a message – be a guardian – 3- sometimes – (Job) it can be as man’s opposer - 4- and always – is satan – the prosecutor in the court before the Lordwww.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan#Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); ( 2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). criminaldefenselawyertx.com/satan-was-a-prosecutor-jesus-was-a-defense-lawyer/Satan Was a Prosecutor. Jesus was a Defense Lawyer.www.facebook.com/pastordavidogbueli/posts/satan-is-the-prosecutor-of-the-brethren-he-is-looking-for-permission-to-attack-y/10151849272847539/Satan is the prosecutor of the brethren,inspiration.visionroot.org/2020/10/20/god-will-be-the-judge-satan-will-be-the-prosecutor/God Will Be the Judge; Satan Will be the ProsecutorIf you choose to take words or themes out of context – alter them to suit yourself – twist them into something unrelated – all of your discussions will be battelsR How do I take words out of context? [/p][/quote] Zec 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the kohen gadol standing before the angel of Adonai and the satan, standing at his right hand to accuse him. Everyone on the planet has always seen this verse as God is Judge – satan is the prosecutor – and Joshua is on trial (Making Christ the defense lawyer)You twist it into God is the Judge – satan is there to oppose and hate GodYou are not consistent with the bulk of scripture No one agrees with your viewYou twist it to match your doctrine Why do you work so hard to defend your satan as a god figure – mr powerful – is able to oppose God You deny scripture after scripture in favor of Ellen WhiteWe should decide right now – which God we follow A God that is absolute – one true creator that created everything everywhere – who is absolute control – Praise God = 100% God’s Will = 100% Gods Plan Or – A god that tried to make a tov world but couldn’t – because other forces are stronger that God’s Will and God’s Plan for his creation was ALTERED – by an opposing powerful force--------------------------------- On another subject, I was trying to be friendly to you, sure we can agree to disagree, your choice, but your a scholar, and I would like your opinion:
I will ask you for an example, because I am interested in your views:
Lu 24:27 And <kai> beginning <archomai> at <apo> Moses <Moseus> and <kai> <apo> all <pas> the prophets <prophetes>, he expounded <diermeneuo> unto them <autos>
What does "diermeneuo" mean? And therefore what was Jesus doing for these two men? I asked this question to Hebrew scholars in Jeff's forum. I would like your opinion.This is a simple answer – but you won’t like it---------------------------------------------- On another theme, I asked you to supply me with an verse that says archons are creatures of matter, but not of angelic origin. You have NOT done this.I have several times – You won’t like this answer either because - Jesus Christ he expounded <diermeneuo> - it to the deciples after the resurrection – so it must be a lieThe Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibrarySophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'. You mentioned the Hebrew word for archon is "shed", but there is so little verses about this word in the OT torah.SO WHAT! What do you do with it Bible Student? Pretend it does not exist? And if the Jews – Like King Solomon – has anything to say about them – deny it as loud as you can - and whatever you do - DONT READ IT Denying – is evidence of protecting a doctrine – not an exploration of the information --------------------------------------------- Rabbi Friedman, (1) Why do we assume Adam sinned an hour later after seeing the tree? Waiting for your comments. Any discussion of time is STUIPID – time is not linear
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2020 19:51:13 GMT -5
What does "diermeneuo" mean? And therefore what was Jesus doing for these two men? I asked this question to Hebrew scholars in Jeff's forum. I would like your opinion. This is a simple answer – but you won’t like it
Luk 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained (G1329) to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.
G1329 – διερμηνεύω- From G1223 and G2059; to explain thoroughly; G2059; to translate: - interpret
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
The knowledge was press onto their hearts – spirit to spirit – from the HS/God directly to the soul of the prophet
It might be with words – It might not involve any words at all
What information is conveyed? Is it 100% of all truth everywhere to the smallest detail – NO! What is conveyed is exactly what Gods want to be conveyed – to facilitate His Will
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 5:04:52 GMT -5
Greetings,
This study took a while:
Dave's Hypothesis: ""Does Satan stand as an accuser before the judgment-seat"
Dave's defence: " And I quote the reference in full...
criminaldefenselawyertx.com/satan-was-a-prosecutor-jesus-was-a-defense-lawyer/
Satan Was a Prosecutor. Jesus was a Defense Lawyer.
It’s true. You may not like it. You may wonder why I’m writing this. But it’s true, and I’ll get you there. The word “devil” comes from the Greek word diábolos, which means “accuser.”[1] www.britannica.com/topic/devil (Devil, (from Greek diabolos, “slanderer” or “accuser”), the spirit or power of evil. Though sometimes used for minor demonic spirits, the word devil generally refers to the prince of evil spirits and as such takes various forms in the religions of the world.)
Rob: "The word devil, Greek diabolos, comes translated from the Hebrew word "shed", meaning "demonic teat", a "feminine function devil".
In early Judaism, unlike modern Christianity, Satan was not viewed as a fallen angel or an adversary to God, but as a prosecutor in God’s court (with God, of course, being the ultimate judge). [2] (See Lawrence J. Epstein, The Basic Beliefs of Judaism: A Twenty-first-Century Guide to a Timeless Tradition 67 (2013). )
In fact, the Old Testament mentions “satan” a scant 14 times: once in 1 Chronicles, 11 times in Job, and twice in Zechariah.[3] 1 Chronicles 21:1; Job 1:6-12; Job 2:1-7; Zechariah 3:1-2
Satan 07854., 23 verses, and 07853., 6 verses. (both noun and verb forms of the same Hebrew, have the same basic meaning, only differences in action) So the word is used 29 times in the OT. This is alot.
In all but one instance, Satan is obediently serving God in his role as an accuser: presenting men to God for judgment.[4] (The reference in 1 Chronicles refers to Satan without the use of the definite article ha. This was likely a clerical oversight.)
In the original Hebrew, Satan is not a proper name, but a title. The Hebrew term ha-satan or “the Satan,” can be translated as “the prosecutor.”[5] Lawrence at 67.
The book of Job is evidence of ha-satan serving this role. The book opens by saying “One day Sons of God [Bene ha-Elohim] came to present themselves before Yaweh, and the satan [ha-satan] also came among them.”[6] (Job 2:1 ¶ Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD)
God asks the satan to consider the righteousness of Job, to which the satan replies (in a nutshell), “It’s only because you’ve been so nice to him. Let me ruin his life.” So God does, and it turns out Job really was a pretty decent guy despite having his family slaughtered, his crops burned, and his life destroyed. But at least our prosecutor friend got some trial experience… Rob: "Let me ruin his life.” So God does, " Hey? "Let me ruin His life, so GOD allows Satan to ruin Job's life?" God does not kill Job's children, men do under the powers of Satan, so in essence Satan kills Job's children.
Satan appears again as a prosecutor in the book of Zechariah. Zechariah chapter 3 describes the Angel of Yaweh showing Zechariah a vision of the high priest, Joshua, on trial before the heavenly court: “Then the angel showed me Jeshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. The Accuser, Satan, was there at the angel’s right hand, making accusations against Jeshua.”[7] (Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.)
======================== Mrs. E. G. White He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.” Zechariah 3:1.
The third chapter of Zechariah contains truths that afford a profitable lesson for all. The people of God, in the person of Joshua, are represented as a criminal on trial. Joshua, as high priest, is seeking a blessing for them. While he is thus pleading before God, Satan is standing at his right hand as his adversary. Satan is an accuser, and is making the case of Israel appear as desperate as possible. He presents before the Lord their faults and failures, hoping that they will appear so dark in the eyes of Christ that he will render them no help in their great need. Joshua, aware of the imperfections of Israel, stands under condemnation, clothed with the filthy garments of sin, while Satan is pressing upon his soul a sense of guilt that makes him almost hopeless. How does Christ look upon the case? What position does he take toward Joshua and the accuser? “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” Thus Christ replies to the accuser. Satan would ruin the people of God, covering them with the blackness of guilt, but Jesus interposes. The people had sinned; but he took the guilt of their sins upon his own soul. He snatched the race as a brand from the fire. With his human arm he encircles humanity, while with his divine arm he grasps the throne of the infinite God. Thus the adversary is rebuked, and help is brought within reach of perishing souls.
Rob: "There is nothing in all of 700,000 words of Ellen White, using "prosecutor". No wonder I have a strange time understanding your view.
========================
What does Hebrew word "satan-verb abd satan-noun" mean?
Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's <'elohiym> anger <'aph> was kindled <charah> because he went <halak>: and the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah> stood <yatsab> in the way <derek> for an adversary <satan> against him. Now he was riding <rakab> upon his ass <'athown>, and his two <sh@nayim> servants <na`ar> were with him.
First sentence has satan-noun as something preventing a ass from travelling down the path. God is doing this function.
Try: The Lord stood in the road to oppose Baalim. .....still fits, meaning prosecutor doesn't
Nu 22:32 And the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten <nakah> thine ass <'athown> these three <shalowsh> times <regel>? behold, I went out <yatsa'> to withstand <satan> thee, because thy way <derek> is perverse <yarat> before me:
Again GOD is satan-noun to Baalim.
Try: The Lord went out to oppose Baalim. .... still fits, meaning prosecutor doesn't
1Sa 29:4 And the princes <sar> of the Philistines <P@lishtiy> were wroth <qatsaph> with him; and the princes <sar> of the Philistines <P@lishtiy> said <'amar> unto him, Make <shuwb> this fellow <'iysh> return <shuwb>, that he may go again <shuwb> to his place <maqowm> which thou hast appointed <paqad> him, and let him not go down <yarad> with us to battle <milchamah>, lest in the battle <milchamah> he be an adversary <satan> to us: for wherewith should he reconcile <ratsah> himself unto his master <'adown>? should it not be with the heads <ro'sh> of these men <'enowsh>?
Try: Lest in battle he oppose us... still fits, meaning prosecutor doesn't
2Sa 19:22 And David <David> said <'amar>, What have I to do with you, ye sons <ben> of Zeruiah <Ts@ruwyah>, that ye should this day <yowm> be adversaries <satan> unto me? shall there any man <'iysh> be put to death <muwth> this day <yowm> in Israel <Yisra'el>? for do not I know <yada`> that I am this day <yowm> king <melek> over Israel
<Yisra'el>? Try: Ye should this day oppose me?
1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD <Y@hovah> my God <'elohiym> hath given me rest <nuwach> on every side <cabiyb>, so that there is neither adversary <satan> nor evil <ra`> occurrent <pega`>.
Try: so there is neither opposing nor dysfunction occurent.
1Ki 11:14 ¶ And the LORD <Y@hovah> stirred up <quwm> an adversary <satan> unto Solomon <Sh@lomoh>, Hadad <Hadad> the Edomite <'Edomiy>: he was of the king's <melek> seed <zera`> in Edom <'Edom>.
Try: The Lord stirred up an opposer unto Solomon
1Ki 11:23 And God <'elohiym> stirred him up <quwm> another adversary <satan>, Rezon <R@zown> the son <ben> of Eliadah <'Elyada`>, which fled <barach> from his lord <'adown> Hadadezer <Hadad`ezer> king <melek> of Zobah <Tsowba'>:
Try: The Lord stirred him up another opposer
1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary <satan> to Israel <Yisra'el> all the days <yowm> of Solomon <Sh@lomoh>, beside the mischief <ra`> that Hadad <Hadad> did: and he abhorred <quwts> Israel <Yisra'el>, and reigned <malak> over Syria <'Aram>.
Try: And he was an opposer to Israel
1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan <satan> stood up <`amad> against Israel <Yisra'el>, and provoked <cuwth> David <David> to number <manah> Israel <Yisra'el>.
Try: The Opposer stood up against Israel....
Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day <yowm> when the sons <ben> of God <'elohiym> came <bow'> to present <yatsab> themselves before the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> came <bow'> also among <tavek> them. Try: And the Opposer also came among them...
Job 1:7 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Whence <'aiyn> comest <bow'> thou? Then Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, From going to and fro <shuwt> in the earth <'erets>, and from walking up and down <halak> in it.
Try: And the Lord said to the Opposer....
Job 1:8 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Hast thou considered <suwm> <leb> my servant <`ebed> Job <'Iyowb>, that there is none like him in the earth <'erets>, a perfect <tam> and an upright <yashar> man <'iysh>, one that feareth <yare'> God <'elohiym>, and escheweth <cuwr> evil <ra`>?
Try: The Lord said unto the Opposer...
Job 1:9 Then Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, Doth Job <'Iyowb> fear <yare'> God <'elohiym> for nought <chinnam>?
Try: The opposer said
Job 1:12 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power <yad>; only upon himself put not forth <shalach> thine hand <yad>. So Satan <satan> went forth <yatsa'> from the presence <paniym> of the LORD Y@hovah.
Try: The Lord said unto the Opposer...
Job 2:1 ¶ Again there was a day <yowm> when the sons <ben> of God <'elohiym> came <bow'> to present <yatsab> themselves before the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> came <bow'> also among <tavek> them to present <yatsab> himself before the LORD <Y@hovah>.
Try: And the Opposer also came among them...
Job 2:2 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, From whence <'ay> comest <bow'> thou? And Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, From going to and fro <shuwt> in the earth <'erets>, and from walking up and down <halak> in it.
Try: The opposer said
Job 2:3 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Hast thou <suwm> considered <leb> my servant <`ebed> Job <'Iyowb>, that there is none like him in the earth <'erets>, a perfect <tam> and an upright <yashar> man <'iysh>, one that feareth <yare'> God <'elohiym>, and escheweth <cuwr> evil <ra`>? and still he holdeth fast <chazaq> his integrity <tummah>, although thou movedst <cuwth> me against him, to destroy <bala`> him without cause <chinnam>.
Try: The Lord said unto the Opposer...
Job 2:4 And Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, Skin <`owr> for skin <`owr>, yea, all that a man <'iysh> hath will he give <nathan> for his life <nephesh>.
Try: The opposer said
Job 2:6 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Behold, he is in thine hand <yad>; but save <shamar> his life <nephesh>.
Try: The Lord said unto the Opposer...
Job 2:7 ¶ So went <yatsa'> Satan <satan> forth <yatsa'> from the presence <paniym> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and smote <nakah> Job <'Iyowb> with sore <ra`> boils <sh@chiyn> from the sole <kaph> of his foot <regel> unto his crown <qodqod>.
Try: The Opposer...went...
Ps 109:6 ¶ Set <paqad> thou a wicked man <rasha`> over him: and let Satan <satan> stand <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn>.
Try: and let the Opposer stand at his right hand...
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed <ra'ah> me Joshua <Y@howshuwa`> the high <gadowl> priest <kohen> standing <`amad> before <paniym> the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> standing <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn> to resist <satan> him.
Try: And the Opposer at his right hand to oppose him....
Here both noun and verb forms are here, and must have similar meanings.
As context, the high priest is not normally in a court room. So the idea of a prosecutor makes no sense. What does a high priest do? He carries your sins as a sin-offering. So why is an angel in the sanctuary room as an opposer, or adversary?
Zec 3:2 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, The LORD <Y@hovah> rebuke <ga`ar> thee, O Satan <satan>; even the LORD <Y@hovah> that hath chosen <bachar> Jerusalem <Y@ruwshalaim> rebuke <ga`ar> thee: is not this a brand <'uwd> plucked <natsal> out of the fire <'esh>?
--------- verb form
Ps 38:20 They also that render <shalam> evil <ra`> for good <towb> are mine adversaries <satan>; because I follow <radaph> the thing that good <towb> is.
Ps 71:13 Let them be confounded <buwsh> and consumed <kalah> that are adversaries <satan> to my soul <nephesh>; let them be covered <`atah> with reproach <cherpah> and dishonour <k@limmah> that seek <baqash> my hurt <ra`>.
Ps 109:4 For my love <'ahabah> they are my adversaries <satan>: but I give myself unto prayer t@phillah.
Ps 109:20 Let this be the reward <p@`ullah> of mine adversaries <satan> from the LORD <Y@hovah>, and of them that speak <dabar> evil <ra`> against my soul <nephesh>.
Ps 109:29 Let mine adversaries <satan> be clothed <labash> with shame <k@limmah>, and let them cover <`atah> themselves with their own confusion <bosheth>, as with a mantle m@`iyl.
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed <ra'ah> me Joshua <Y@howshuwa`> the high <gadowl> priest <kohen> standing <`amad> before <paniym> the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> standing <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn> to resist <satan> him.
The only English word that fits all verses, both verb and noun forms is "oppose/opposing/opposer"
========================== Joshua stands before the court in dirty, ragged clothing, and God recognizes Joshua’s guilt, but absolves him saying, “See, I have taken away your sins, and now I am giving you these fine new clothes.”[8]
Joshua stand before the sanctuary, in dirty ragged clothing. Not a court? Where does the Author get this idea from? Le 16:6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
These verses are the only verses that offer clue to what Joshua the High Priest would be doing, similar to Aaron the High Priest. There are two goats, as similes of heavenly Beings, one is used for the sin-offering. The other is used for a scapegoat, and offers clues to the angel's function.
Le 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Here is a clue to why the angel might be accusing the High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, to prevent more sins transferred unto Him, the angel, termed in Hebrew as the Opposer.
======================== m.facebook.com/pastordavidogbueli/posts/satan-is-the-prosecutor-of-the-brethren-he-is-looking-for-permission-to-attack-y/10151849272847539/ Pastor David Ogbueli (founded new church NCF, in Negeria Africa) January 14, 2014 at 6:55 PM Satan is the prosecutor of the brethren, he is looking for permission to attack you and his accusations comes day and night. This was what he did to Job, at that time, there was no one to defend him. But now there is an advocate, a high priest defending you day and night. The only thing that can stop God is your negative confession. Negative confession is confirming the words of satan against you. Even if your father is the Chief Judge and if you plead guilty, you will be condemned.
Revelation 12:10-11 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.(KJV)
Open up the your mouth and declare with your words your victory over the enemy AND IT SHALL BE SO UNTO YOU, IN JESUS NAME! ========================= inspiration.visionroot.org/2020/10/20/god-will-be-the-judge-satan-will-be-the-prosecutor/ Do you love Cain? Cain is in the position of Satan’s son. Satan, who is spiritual, challenges us through people who take the role of Cain. They are grinding their teeth, hating us even though we never did them any wrong. If Satan is not to hook you, you should subjugate Cain; that is, win him over. This will require you to love Cain all the way to the end; otherwise, you cannot save him. For this reason, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you need to obtain a certificate from Satan. What is Satan’s certificate? For a convicted criminal to be released he should first go through an attorney, then a prosecutor, and finally he can be released by the judge. Satan is in the position of the prosecutor, God is the judge, and Jesus is the attorney. If Satan accuses a defendant with convincing evidence, God cannot do anything about it. Then Jesus, the attorney, says, “Heavenly Father, since this person is accused of such and such counts, let him be given an indemnity condition proportionate to his offenses, and then liberate him.” For this reason [proving he has fulfilled the indemnity condition], he needs to procure a certificate from Satan. (48:316-17, September 26, 1971)
======================= The only way to entertain the idea Satan or any angel as a prosecutor, is to look up verses with "judgement" in them and see if there is any context. As far as I know, there is none.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 27, 2020 12:24:09 GMT -5
1- angels do any job assigned to them by God – angels always obey God 2- sometimes – the job is to deliver a message – be a guardian – 3- sometimes – (Job) it can be as man’s opposer - 4- and always – is satan – the prosecutor in the court before the Lord
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan# Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). If you choose to take words or themes out of context – alter them to suit yourself – twist them into something unrelated – all of your discussions will be battelsR How do I take words out of context? The only way to entertain the idea Satan or any angel as a prosecutor, is to look up verses with "judgement" in them and see if there is any context. As far as I know, there is none.Let’s look at your study – and we will see if you are forcing scripture to match your doctrineDave's Hypothesis: ""Does Satan stand as an accuser before the judgment-seat"Rob: "There is nothing in all of 700,000 words of Ellen White, using "prosecutor". No wonder I have a strange time understanding your view.pros·e·cu·tor a person, especially a public official, who institutes legal proceedings against someone. "prosecutors are fully entitled to bring any number of offenses against a single defendant" a lawyer who conducts the case against a defendant in a criminal court. Also called prosecuting attorney. R How do I take words out of context? Rob: "There is nothing in all of 700,000 words of Ellen White, using "prosecutor". Mrs. E. G. WhiteHe showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.” Zechariah 3:1.
The third chapter of Zechariah contains truths that afford a profitable lesson for all. The people of God, in the person of Joshua, are represented as a criminal on trial. Joshua, as high priest, is seeking a blessing for them. While he is thus pleading before God, Satan is standing at his right hand as his adversary. Satan is an accuser, and is making the case of Israel appear as desperate as possible. He presents before the Lord their faults and failures, hoping that they will appear so dark in the eyes of Christ that he will render them no help in their great need. Seriously Robert – you don’t even understand the words of your own religious leaderAgain GOD is satan-noun to Baalim.Your satan = God – how does that correlate with cherub chata?1Ki 11:14 Try: The Lord stirred up an opposer unto Solomon100% under God’s control – doing a job for the Lord – as assigned1Ki 11:23 Try: The Lord stirred him up another opposer100% under God’s control – doing a job for the Lord – as assigned1Ki 11:25 Try: And he was an opposer to IsraelOppose man / Israel – NOT GOD1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan <satan> stood up <`amad> against Israel <Yisra'el>, and provoked <cuwth> David <David> to number <manah> Israel <Yisra'el>. Try: The Opposer stood up against Israel....YES the oppose stood up against Israel – man – NOT GOD2Sa 24:1 Now the anger of Adonai again flared up against Israel, so He incited David against them saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” And that satan was GOD or someone (angelic being) doing the God’s willPs 109:6 ¶ Set <paqad> thou a wicked man <rasha`> over him: and let Satan <satan> stand <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn>. Try: and let the Opposer stand at his right hand...YES – to be the prosecutorPsa 109:5 They repay me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Psa 109:6 Set a wicked man over him, let an accuser stand at his right hand. Psa 109:7 When he is judged, let him be found guilty, and may his prayer be as sin. Zec 3:1 Try: And the Opposer at his right hand to oppose him....R How do I take words out of context? As context, the high priest is not normally in a court room. So the idea of a prosecutor makes no sense. What does a high priest do? He carries your sins as a sin-offering. So why is an angel in the sanctuary room as an opposer, or adversary? The reason the High Priest Joshua is in the court room is because 'he' is the accused Joshua is on trial – that is why he is in the court room And satan = the proscutor. We will see Dave, this ruling power is slowly ruling over us more and more. Even opposes GODWhose Gospel are you promoting here?There must be something RULING you – because it sure is not common senceIf any outside power – force – influence – can talk you into denying God Then you do not gnosis the LordWhat does any of your statement have to do with choose God or notPLease explain yourself - why are you becoming less secure in God and His Salvation Why is this ruling power coming over you Why do you think your satan controls your thoughts - is there something your hiding?
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