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Post by Dave on Oct 15, 2020 18:30:55 GMT -5
Institute for Creation Research (ICR) This has to be the most precious work since the agl And you can have a copy for only $79.95USD R : Why is Walt Brown's work so closed up?BECAUSE it is pseudo-science and does not stand intelligent scrutinyBrown – makes at least four basic assumptions – that are fictions – fantasy Then builds upon those incorrect assumptionsICR –is just another man-made Vatican style religious center I say the function of the Roman Church is to misrepresent the Gospel Wrap a bunch of mythology into it and call it theology – anything to keep the public for learning on their own and leaving the church I say – ICR – is just as harmful My exaggerated example Your neighbor UFO guy – is well educated You walk in – ask him to realize that all his UFO stuff iss fake and error Then send him to ICR – PROOF THAT THE CHRISTIAN FAITH IS BOLOGONY Anything to damage the true faith D: "God said – he made the tov and the ra – I accept this So you must warp into a sin argumentR: Isn't moral RA sin? I don't get you...Does God say He created moral ra – NO – you do God says He made the ra – nothing more Your moral ra is just man talking it to extremes –the sum of all chaos God gave man a Free Will choice – where does this say anything about limits God made ra – man chooses to act selfish (yester ra) taking his mind off God – therefore this = ra If man is governed by his anger (yester ra) taking his mind off God – therefore = ra If a man becomes so angry (yester ra) that he wishes his enemy harm – therefore = ra If a man becomes so angry (yester ra) that he wishes his dead – therefore this = ra If am man becomes so angry (yester ra) that he kills his enemy – therefore this = ra Who made ra – God didWho – took ra to its extreme – man doesIf man has limits placed upon him (like satan) – then choice is limited Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. wickedness of manSo this RA is only something the humans were intentionally designed to be doing Dave? Which is it? NOPE! – man has the free will choice to choose it and do whatever we want with itGe 6:8 So Only ONE MAN, in charge of his family, was the ONLY HUMAN truely supporting Elohiym? All other humans doing RA perished. These were not straight, only Noah's family was. OR – this is a genetic referenceGen 6:7 … from humankind to livestock, crawling things and the flying creatures of the sky, because I regret that I made them.” Gen 7:21 All flesh perished—those that crawl on the land, the flying creatures, livestock, wild animals, all creatures that swarm upon the land, and all humankind. Gen 7:23 So He wiped out all existence that was upon the surface of the ground, everything from people to livestock, to crawling creatures, and to flying creatures of the sky. They were wiped out off the land. Only Noah and those with him in the ark survived. Question - What did the animal and birds do wrong Answer – because their DNA gene pools had been corrupted – Chimears If Noah is pure in his generations genetically – then We have no proof that his wife was – and therefore their sons Even if Noah’s wife was genetically pure (Noah’s sister, aunt, or neice) We have no evidence that the wives of the 3 sons were pure Ge 6:11 ¶ The earth <'erets> also was corrupt <shachath> before <paniym> God <'elohiym>, and the earth <'erets> was filled <male'> with violence <chamac>.
Maybe you should study "shachath" and "chamac" to see what "RA" really means?YEP! The whole earth was Sh’T – agreeNature was alive and well – volcanoes were happening – earthquakes – all types of ra And the earth was filled with violence – yes – totally agree The bane elohiym had taught man science and the art of war The bane elohiym had taught the women potions and magic spells T rex was alive and well ripping other dinos apart for dinner in Wyoming There are two forms of the same word. The outside flowing prickles. This idea has thorns in it, a concept of sin. Pr 8:36 Weird Pr 8:35 Pro 8:35 (TLV) For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from Adonai. (Divine Pardon – escape the Lake of Fire)Pro 8:36 (TLV) But whoever fails to find me harms his life—all who hate me love death.” (no Pardon – Proportional Punishment – and those at the extreme really long for that Lake of Fire)What is so complicated? The LXX says the same: "You say Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all animal everywhere – and all the plants – and to all the mountains - , for that all have sinned: - because the trees and grasses sinned
Why cannot this passage be about one man – and all men Rob" What's the problem? When RA came into our world from sin, it caused the dying of leaves, of grasses and of animals too. Is this so weird for you? I ask for a verse – Death is the wages of sin – how do plants sin Death is the wages of sin – how do ants sin – or bunny rabbitsD: "Who created ra – please answerThe question is loaded Dave?NO IT IS NOT – the answer is written in scriptureahl says - God made the tov and the ra - He does all because He is God agl says - by Him for Him and all things were created throught Him There is nothing created that was not created by Him Now would GOD intentionally create "missing" ? Of course not.So here you go again - I ask who created ra – and now you are ranting about sinR: "The only reason why RA exists is because sinning happened. D: "Please provide a scripture verse to make your point? Just to keep saying it – does not make it true R: You want me to prove RA is engineered by GOD when Sin happens?Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come from Mt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! thine eye – be they darkness = (yester ra) Lu 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come from Lu 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. This proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come fromJoh 1:5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come fromJoh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. This proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come from - where does the ra come fromOh I see - man does ra - so this is proof to you that man created ra This is how you can say - If God made the ra - that means God does raJoh 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come fromAc 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come fromYou just argued that it does not please God for man to see his own sinRo 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come from 2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come from And the Light of God is the savior – Gen 1:3Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come from1Jo 1:5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come fromNotice John says no darkness, no RA in GOD. Only light and love.Notice Johns does not disagree that God made the raHow is darkness removed from a believer? Walk closer towards GOD, the shadows vanish. Does this proves God made ra after sin? – where did the darkness come fromYou see RA as some designed thing, it's no such thing. Scripture says - God made ra You deny scripture to embrace a presept of manRA is simply a description of relationship. RA is a condition when things are missing functional relationship to GOD. This defintion also fits friction, snow and rain. ANd yet snow is missing functional relationship to GOD is still beautiful despite some missing. I am amazed how clever GOD is, even when sinners sin, our world of RA made by our sinning is still beautiful and purposeful. If GOD wasn't controlling RA in this way, nothing woudl exist at all. OK – Please tell me which of these verse proves that God made ra in response to someone else – man or angel sinningAgain you insist yester ra and yester tov are things.... its a part of relationship... either you love GOD fully or not. Some body who loves GOD almost fully is , almost saved but wholly lost. Loving GOD 99.999% is not enough either. So – love is not a thing? – you play a word game How about propensities – you have used this term – is it a thing?
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Post by Richard on Oct 16, 2020 10:22:38 GMT -5
D: "God said – he made the tov and the ra – I accept this So you must warp into a sin argumentR: Isn't moral RA sin? I don't get you...Does God say He created moral ra – NO – you do God says He made the ra – nothing more Your moral ra is just man talking it to extremes –the sum of all chaos God gave man a Free Will choice – where does this say anything about limits God made ra – man chooses to act selfish (yester ra) taking his mind off God – therefore this = ra If man is governed by his anger (yester ra) taking his mind off God – therefore = ra If a man becomes so angry (yester ra) that he wishes his enemy harm – therefore = ra If a man becomes so angry (yester ra) that he wishes his enemy dead – therefore this = ra If am man becomes so angry (yester ra) that he kills his enemy – therefore this = ra Who made ra – God didWho – took ra to its extreme – man doesIf man has limits placed upon him (like satan) – then choice is limited God made the gun and the gun itself is a tool. This gun tool can be used for good as in feeding the hungry and defending the innocent. When this happens everyone praises God for the gift of the gun, or the intelligence to make a gun. This gun can also be used for evil as in to harm or kill another, murder. When this happens, Robert accuses God of creating murder? The gun is neither tov or ra. It is all about how man uses it. This is the gift of Free Will. God gave man life. It is all about how man uses it.
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Post by Dave on Oct 16, 2020 11:55:07 GMT -5
Thanks for posting it
God made the gun and the gun itself is a tool. God created the tov and the ra (Isa 45:7) He does all these things for He is the One True Creator of everything – there is nothing made that wasn’t made by God – by Him for Him This gun tool can be used for good as in feeding the hungry and defending the innocent. When this happens everyone praises God for the gift of the gun, or the intelligence to make a gun. Blow your trumpet and the walls of Jericho fall – tov Walk with God and eliminate all 7 tribes of Amorite – tov Walk with God and your enemies will fall before you – tov even being outnumbered by a 200 million manned army – tov Praise the Lord for deliverance from Egypt - tov Praise God for the ability to conquer and occupy the Promised Land - tov And Praise God for John 3:16 - tov
This gun can also be used for evil as in to harm or kill another, murder. When this happens, Robert accuses God of creating murder? It was David that sent Uriah to his death – not God – not satan So David could covet and commit adultery – not God - not satan
The gun is neither tov or ra. It is all about how man uses it. This is the gift of Free Will. God gave man life. It is all about how man uses it.
Psa 51:16 Deliver me from bloodguilt, O God—God of my salvation. Then my tongue will sing for joy of Your righteousness. Psa 51:17 O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare Your praise. Psa 51:18 For You would not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it, nor be pleased by burnt offerings. Psa 51:19 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
Then my tongue will sing for joy of Your righteousness. I will be a prophet (witness) to all the nations
For You would not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it, nor be pleased by burnt offerings. Just to be full of religion and public worship are just things man does = religion
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and a contrite heart,
NOTICE – repeatedly in scripture we are told God test us – to see if we love Him With all of our HEART, MIND, and SOUL But the true sacrifices to God are of SPIRIT/SOUL and HEART Mind – brain – intelligence – my PhD and the ICR self-proclaimed validation = all ‘ SH’T’ / Dust
It has nothing to do with what we know and everything to do with what we already gnosis deep inside spiritually However – what we know –IS A POWERFUL CLOUD of MIND that gets in the way of what we already gnosis deep inside
Example I have responded to ER after a car accident involving ‘Brother John,’ his first wife Mary, his second wife, Mary, and his third wife Martha and their combined 12 children
If you met them and talked with them – you would think them to be amazing Christian folk But at the heart of it – Jehovah was once a man who became a god with twin sons Jesus and satan
Example – I grew up around Chicago (small town in Indiana in Amish country 90 miles away) Went to Chicago a few times a year – to play dress up – to party – to shop – for concerts – Wriggly Field with my Dad as a kid for White Sox Base Ball – Chicago Bears Football – and to buy drugs in the worst neighborhoods with the worst kinds of people)
The Unitarian Church – is a dominate structure – meant to impress – a Cathederial No virgin birth and no resurrection – medically impossible
Example – downtown Hollywood on the walk of fame The Church of Scientology – mega movie stars – Tom Cruise - Missing persons And when you reach the highest levels – to know the hidden knowledge you learn – we are a composite of 100s of other alien life forms experiencing this reality – your skin is covered with alien eyes watching us like a movie (Joe Rogan interview with the daughter of the founder – now escaped member)
Just like ICR - it all started as the Theological science of Dianetics - by L. Ron Hubbard Basically - it is the promotion of self until you get what you want Primary foundation - Sigmund Freud
However – what we know –IS A POWERFUL CLOUD of MIND that gets in the way of what we already gnosis deep inside
Example I feel it foundational to the faith that we are more than flesh – we are spirit I also feel that this reality we call home – IS AN ILLUSION – a hologram – not the true reality True reality is not physical – it is spiritual in the heavens in a closer presence to God In a way – physicality separates us from God – limits our perspective to just brutish
We are spirit that already gnosis God – now in a physical souljourn on a mission for God – and we will return to God as spirit
Before there was Jesus – this was the faith of the Jewish people This is still the heart of Judaism
Jesus said – I did not come to change any of this – and anyone who teaches that I have is the least in heaven
Instead – Jesus Christ promises to send the HS to us as comforter and teacher of all things
Joh 16:7 (TLV) But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away! For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. Joh 16:8 “When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment:
This is a spiritual experience – to be Born Again of Spirit Stick your hand in the fire and you gnosis Paul was swept up to heaven and met Christ – Boom he gnosis The Spirit of the Lord touches you – and you gnosis This is so real and so amazing that you long to keep it – hang onto it AND YOU SURE KNOW when it pulls away from you
Mar 15:34 At the ninth hour Yeshua cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You abandoned Me?”
Luk 23:46 And Yeshua, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I entrust My spirit.’” When He had said this, He breathed His last.
And His Spirit returned to God
And I know a guy – who has been taught – this belief is a sin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 16:53:19 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D: "OK – Please tell me which of these verse proves that God made ra in response to someone else – man or angel sinning
Rob: I see this is a big question to you. Either RA was placed in our world from the beginning, or
RA came into our world because man became sinful. Which is it?
In a sense ra means dysfunctional, the dead opposite to very functional.
SO you saying GOD cannot create a univierse that is perfectly very functional, the best GOD can do is to create things both dysfunctional and functional, and He calls this very good.
So a universe with entrophy, and friction and natural decay, decomposers, carnivores and such things is a part of GOD's world, GOD is NOT capable of making a universe without entrophy, without friction, without carnivores and without any kind of moral dysfunction in it.
SO in essence you say GOD can only create a FLAWED world. I say GOD can create a PERFECT world. And did. But man spoiled this by sinning. You mock this idea because plants do not sin, yet they die, how unfair. You forget the concept of "prince of kingdoms". You don't like "rulers who rule over you" idea. The fact is Scripture is loaded with this idea, that kings and kingdoms exist. These rulers do not detail you living all the time, they influence you.
OK some evidence that GOD can create things perfectly.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Lions eating grass, not lambs? Wolves happy to feed next to sheep? No hurting in all my holy mountain?
Isa 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
SO if the former world is to be forgotten, and the new world is to be differently created, this implies GOD can create a PERFECT world?
I gave you this idea before, but you reject the notion.
Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. SO this ra and wickedness and sinning world we see, does not rise up a second time.
This tells me this world is the first time it's ever happened.
Notice the new CREATION
Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
No more death. FOrmer things pass away, including RA.
Re 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Get the idea? All things New.
Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it:
No SUN or Moon in the new city, because these are similes of God's light, and Light dwells in the city.
Re 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
The city gates are never shut because no night, ie no darkness ever there.
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D: "OK – Please tell me which of these verse proves that God made ra in response to someone else – man or angel sinning
Example (1) GOD is not mocked, A man reapeth what he sows. Man sows sin, God sends Him Ra.
1Sa 16:4 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Notice the HS of GOD left Saul, and a RA ruwach entered Him.
Why did this happen? Was not GOD reaciting to Saul's choice to sin. Saul disobeyed GOD, so GOD's HS left Saul, and the archon spirits of RA (your idea) came in to get Saul to do more evil.
This passagge is about GOD reacting to creatures who sin, they get more RA.
Example (2) Man sows sin, God sends Him Ra. Man repents to GOD, the RA goes away.
2Ch 33:1 ¶ Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, .. 2 But did that which was evil (RA) in the sight of the LORD, like unto the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. 2Ch 33:10 And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken. 2Ch 33:12 And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers, 2Ch 33:15 And he took away the strange gods,
God reacts to His sinning
Example (3) Evil spirits (same term in OT as in NT, using pneumia) overtake the preacher because he was fake. The point is this changed the church respect for GOD' power over sinning angels who rule over men.
Ac 19:13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
Ac 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
Why did many burn expensive books of RA, so God grew mightily? The passage is showing man removes his sin, and the RA also goes away.
Example (4) The entire passages of a simile in 1 JOhn.
1Jo 1:5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John says GOD is light. There is no darkness in GOD. So where does darkness come from? Not from GOD.
Darkness from this passage obviously comes from missing GOD, ie SIN. This means if some area misses light, it gets darkness.
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
Again darkness is a simile of hate, the opposite qualities of love.
1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father
Why does John mention the wicked one. AND the Father in this passage? Dave makes the Father and the CHief Archon on the same side, but this is NOT what John is describing here. One is light. The other is darkness. The Father is light. The wicked one is by defintion Darkness.
So mediums can impact upon darkness areas too. The medium of the HS, the medium of an evil spirit, ruled by Satan.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Here John lists loving the world as kind of missing some of us do.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
John defined the wicked one of darkness as the devil, the one who sins, and sinneth from the beginning. Notice Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan, the Devil.
This makes Jesus and the Devil opposers who oppose each other, one is light, the other darkness.
Notice JOhn writes the devil sinneth from the beginning, NOT was created sinning from the beginning. These angels left their first estate because they did sinning on purpose. They chose to sin.
Example (5) God reacts when men or angels sin
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Notice the man is lifted up in pride, or sin Therefore God reacts Behold I will bring this upon you
Notice a parallel simile to a different creature, but does the same thing as King Tyre does
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
The angel lifts up in pride The angel sins Therefore GOD reacts
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee
Just as GOD laid King Tyre before kings .... so GOD laid Satan the angel who sinned before kings too. These are kings of unfallen worlds.
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Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Arn't you doing this Dave, making both tov and ra designed intentionally from GOD?
Rather I see GOD being tov, but creating RA only because man and angels sin?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do .
Yes but this verse does NOT answer why GOD creates RA. You are not investigating why RA is created.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (KJV
Doesn't this verse explain where RA comes from? Because men love darkness rather than light... Where does "choshek" come from?
Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Darkness or "choshek" comes from Satan.
God created a natural simile of RA, "choshek" yes, and told Adam about the serpent angel who sinned, causing darkness, you call this mission to explore and test yester ra. I see it was GOD testing man to avoid the father of darkness, the father of lies, the father of sinning.
Dave: "How about propensities – you have used this term – is it a thing?
Rob: "Yes, but I am saying aven (negative powers of DNA genes called propensities of RA) was NOT placed in Adam before he sinned. The propensities only came into Adam after he sinned.
Science is not sure what epi-genetics is.... is it stored DNA, or stored memores that affect DNA code? I suspect the DNA is a recorder of memories and habits, so if you do evil, you cause this memory to be passed unto your children.
Adam was created sinless, without any memores of sinning in him, no ra or any kind. He was perfect.
When He saw the leaf fall from the tree because of His sin, he was very sad, and tearful. He had lost His right as ruler over the kingdom of earth, He was the protector of earth and failed, His sin caused death to all his living subjects under his rule. Adam the prince, lost his crown.
Jesus a new prince was given earth for a kingdom. But to rescue man, we have to be freed from death. Sin or RA is a shadow unto death. Not all sins , not all ra is a sin unto death, 1 John says. God can cover some shadows with His light. But some shadows of darkness God cannot cover over, unless you repent, and change your relationship to GOD.
D: "OK – Please tell me which of these verse proves that God made ra in response to someone else – man or angel sinning R I hope I have done this. But Scripture is not black and white and easy to read. Some doubt. Others mock. People say it's confusing. Its a parable. Too many similes. Too much poetry.
What causes the umbra shadows of death? You blocking Jesus light, it's a relationship gone wrong. Play around with GOD, switch on a flashligh torch, notice the darkness vanishes. Where does the darkness go?
Turn off the light. Where does the darkness go? Is darkness even a thing? The absence of light?
If sin is darkness you can never see your sinning in the darkness, because eyes require light. No wonder you are confused. You ask me where does Scripture say GOD responds to sin? If a person sins and makes darkness, that means GOD has to react and switch Himself off in that person's life, so He becomes dark.
Darkness on it's own does not exist. So GOD has to react to sinners who sin, otherwise nobody would sense anything, or see anything.
I play around with shadows. What defines the shadows of sin? Light does.
Duh it's a no brainer. and you want me to find a verse saying GOD reacts to darkness, to sin?
Does darkness oppose light? Not according to Dave, this is a natural thing a flawed world.
In a perfect world there is no darkness, no sin, no being causing GOD to stop being tormented by having to change His brghtness because some relationship demands the light to change from Him/Her. When GOD's light blazes in glory over the entire world of people, millions are burned by the light of love burning. Only those fireproof endure the blazing of love forever.
Shalom
Thank you Richard for your post. It's interesting, nice
You are saying GOD created some tools like a gun to feed people.
Maybe? God fed people using manna, no guns required.
You say: "This gun can also be used for evil as in to harm or kill another, murder. When this happens, Robert accuses God of creating murder?
If a person does RA with a gun, how is this God's fault? Why do you say , I would say God is creating murder?
Oh I see, you saying that not all RA is sinful, it depends upon how you as a man use that ra.
Maybe I can agree with that idea. That's why I have introduced natural ra and moral ra.
Now change the theme to GOD. How does GOD see NATURAL RA?
If GOD created a world with some natural ra in it, like snow, doesn't this mean GOD cannot create a world that is perfect, without snow? Yet snow is also beautiful, yet snow is ra.
Dave says Eden had natural ra affects in it before man even existed, like darkness, like natural decay and death, like carnivores such as dinos eating flesh and sharks eating fish.
I say these things never existed in Eden until man himself sinned. This includes snow. If we say GOD cannot create a perfect world, only a flawed world, are we not limiting God's ability to create?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 17, 2020 11:07:40 GMT -5
D: "OK – Please tell me which of these verse proves that God made ra in response to someone else – man or angel sinning Rob: I see this is a big question to you. R: " The only reason why RA exists is because sinning happened.D: " Please provide a scripture verse to make your point? You make the statement and call it fact – I asked for a verse to support your statement Please provide a verse that says – God made ra only because a man or angel sinned You still havent Either RA was placed in our world from the beginning, or – Yes – Gen 1:2it came into our world because man became sinful. – there are no second creatorsSO you saying GOD cannot create a univierse that is perfectly very functional, the best GOD can do is to create things both dysfunctional and functional, and He calls this very good.I do not say God cannot Gen 1:1 – no choshek Everything was tov until the First Archon expressed self and chata Then Gen 1:2 So a universe with entrophy, and friction and natural decay, decomposers, carnivores and such things is a part of GOD's world, God looked at all that he had made and called it tovGOD is NOT capable of making a universe without entrophy, without friction, without carnivores and without any kind of moral dysfunction in it.I will never say God cannot do anything he wants I do say that God is the one and only Creator of the multiverse and our universe of it has entropyI say GOD can create a PERFECT world. And did. But man spoiled this by sinning. So now man is more powerful than God – Man changed God’s Plan – your God is weak indeed I was more impressed when you claimed cherub chata was the answer for everything At least you had one verse to quoteYou mock this idea because plants do not sin, yet they die, how unfair. You forget the concept of "prince of kingdoms". You don't like "rulers who rule over you" idea. The fact is Scripture is loaded with this idea, that kings and kingdoms exist. These rulers do not detail you living all the time, they influence you.YES! Robert there are all type of INFLUENCES arrayed against us – they are called archon If you thinks they rule plants – go for it If you think they rule you – you need to seek your saviorOK some evidence that GOD can create things perfectly.Isa 65:25 Future tense – how does this apply to the pastIsa 65:17 Future tense – how does this apply to the pastSO if the former world is to be forgotten, and the new world is to be differently created, this implies GOD can create a PERFECT world?Sure – Agree - Future tense – how does this apply to the pastI gave you this idea before, but you reject the notion.I do not reject prophesy for the futureNa 1:9 SO this ra and wickedness and sinning world we see, does not rise up a second time.Not in the future – I believe scriptureRe 21:4 Future tense – how does this apply to the pastNo more death. Former things pass away, including RA. Future tense – how does this apply to the pastRe 21:5 Get the idea? All things New.Sure - Future tense – how does this apply to the past================ D: "OK – Please tell me which of these verse proves that God made ra in response to someone else – man or angel sinning 1Sa 16:4 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. Notice the HS of GOD left Saul, and a RA ruwach entered Him. 1- the HS of God – you use the term correctly – the Spirit of God = HS correct 2- You used to ay that the only ruwach was God – glad to see you have grown from your wordism 3- the evil spirit here is 100% a servant of GodWhy did this happen? Was not GOD reaciting to Saul's choice to sin. Saul disobeyed GOD, so GOD's HS left Saul, and the archon spirits of RA (your idea) came in to get Saul to do more evil. 1- YES! God / HS cannot commune with your while you are sinning 2- the evil spirit here is 100% a servant of God This passage is about GOD reacting to creatures who sin, they get more RA. 1- Every man is not possessed by an archon – but Saul show us clearly its possible 2- the evil spirit here is 100% a servant of GodExample (2) Man sows sin, God sends Him Ra. Man repents to GOD, the RA goes away.So – This is exactly my point – ra is a tool that God uses Ac 19:13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. Evil spirts in the name of the Lord Jesus - the evil spirit here is 100% a servant of God The passage is showing man removes his sin, and the RA also goes away.YES! Robert no one has ever denied REPENTANCEJohn says GOD is light. There is no darkness in GOD. So where does darkness come from? Not from GOD. Choshek was created to hid away the First Archon – the darkness – the Abyss 1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father Why does John mention the wicked one. AND the Father in this passage? Dave makes the Father and the CHief Archon on the same side, but this is NOT what John is describing here. One is light. The other is darkness. The Father is light. The wicked one is by defintion Darkness. YES! – John is writing to those who knew Jesus personally YES! – John is writing to those who have come to know Jesus spiritually and have overcome the yester ra self that used to motivate them only YES! – and the little children that STILL REMEMBER God within their soulThe Father is Light agreed The Archon are the darkness – it is where they live YES! Totally agree1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Here John lists loving the world as kind of missing some of us do. YES! – football, studying auto repair, working 200 hrs a week for the Church – anything that distracts your focus from the seeking the Kingdom of heaven YES! – very Gnostic1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. YES! – your choice is God or not – if you are not choosing God you are chata YES! – the First Archon was the First – in the beginning – Gen 1:2John defined the wicked one of darkness as the devil, the one who sins, and sinneth from the beginning. Notice Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan, the Devil. YES! John 3:16 – is God’s Plan – totally agreeNotice JOhn writes the devil sinneth from the beginning, NOT was created sinning from the beginning. These angels left their first estate because they did sinning on purpose. They chose to sin. I guess there was a moment – between creation and speaking – so whatExample (5) God reacts when men or angels sin Eze 28:-8 Notice the man is lifted up in pride, or sin Therefore God reacts Behold I will bring this upon you Notice a parallel simile to a different creature, but does the same thing as King Tyre does YES – the passage is all about King Tyre and a metaphor about an angel – AGREED!Eze 28:14 The angel lifts up in pride The angel sins Therefore GOD reacts The First Archon’s first thought was of SELF – and God reacted – correct - AGREEEze 28:17 Just as GOD laid King Tyre before kings .... so GOD laid Satan the angel who sinned before kings too. These are kings of unfallen worlds. Where is satan laid? – what do you mean – and who are the King of unfallen worldsEze 28:7 behold, I will bring strangers against you, the ruthless of the nations. They will draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom. They will defile your splendor. Give me a real life example of how men with swords defiled the work of your satan You speak in circles – man raises up a sword to attack satan and company – OK give me scripture that has man single handedly attacking satan and spoils all of satan’s work------------------------------------------------- Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Arn't you doing this Dave, making both tov and ra designed intentionally from GOD? Rather I see GOD being tov, but creating RA You talk in circles I am not allowed to say God created ra Only you can say God created raIsa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do . Yes but this verse does NOT answer why GOD creates RA. You are not investigating why RA is created. Please ask God whyWhy did God form the light or create darkness or make peace Why did God create man Why why why?Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (KJV Doesn't this verse explain where RA comes from? Because men love darkness rather than light... Where does "choshek" come from?WOW – you think so Man loves darkness – this creates the ra This is your proof verse?Man loves this world – man loves self – is selfish and this is the choshek – so ra automatically appears How about – there is only One Creator periodHe created everything exactly how He Plans – because he is GOD – He is absolute Part of God’s Plan = balance – now that is tov – everything in balance Birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the circle of life in balance as God designed Nature is so tov it is amazing – the very intricate interwoven relationships between ground - plant – animal – and man – is so complex that man still doesn’t grasp it all All of it – plainly visible – in the heavens – Psa 19:1-2 – in nature – or under a microscope Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— You deny this scripture – to you everything in nature proves your satan changed God’s creationWe disagreeI will stick to scripture as written – I do not have to play word games or invent metaphors to explain away the actual words of scriptureWhat is the highest heaven like – the Throne of God – I am sure it is tov But there are 7 more heavens / dimensions in God’s Multiverse Our universe = 3rd Dimension - 3D Physicality - here Ancient Gnostic – saw this 3D world as the corruption – The Nag Hammadi authors have a much bigger view Romans 1:19-20 – there is so much tov and beauty in God’s creation The amazing cycle of life – birth – growth – death – and rebirth From the beginning – man needs to grow enough to consider (anything I need to atone for) – and realize (death is the result of the life I have already led – to late)- but through Jesus Christ REBIRTH Rosh Hashanah – Yom Kippur – Sukkot – Purim – Pesach - ShavoutGod’s handiwork – God’s creation – God’s plan – birth growth – death – and rebirth God’s creation – and it is TOV – and it is completely visible anywhere and everywhere man can lookHe also makes man – and Gives man Free WillI agree with Rich 100% - satan did not make the two trees in the Garden of Eden – God did Satan did not create Eve – God did Satan did not force Eve to choose – satan did not chose for her – satan did not rule her – he only influenced / suggested / enticed / tempted Eve made the choice to chata- alone – all by herself (self)
Now Adam – satan never spoke to Adam – satan never influenced him or suggested anything Eve does – now Eve is Adam’s satan (man on man – man vrs man – no satan required – just SELF – yester ra) I am smiling – I love this – what a great example – and please do not think I am making fun of you or mocking – but this is such a great example
Why do you think snow is ra The reason I ask = I moves 1250 miles away from my home of birth – to be in the snow – to live in the snow because it is one of God’s greatest tovs People flock to Colorado all summer long for God’s beautiful creation – tov No one comes here for Nov-Dec – why – because the end of fall is brown and dull and dead Come January – we have 3 feet of snow and people again flock to Colorado for God’s beautiful creation – tov After the snow melts the rivers are alive – the land is clean – and rebirth is amazingly beautiful Personal story I grew up In Indiana – you can grow anything there – we have to mow it away I come to Colorado mid-winter – and everyone in the church here tells of the beautiful wild flowers in spring – the mountain sides will be covered in color – God’s amazing creation – beautiful AND they were right – spring came and the wild flowers took over the view everywhere It was beautiful – But – from Indiana – every one of those beautiful wild flowers would have been called WEEDS (ra) that need to be eliminated To me –snow is not only not ra – but a beautiful part of God’s amazingly complex creation all working in balance – tov PERSPECTIVE I like the cold better than the heat If it is cold – I can do something about it If it is hot – all we can do is bitch Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. (you do realize you just argued against this very passage – three post ago – It is a tov for man to see his own ra and repents – God likes this)Darkness or "choshek" comes from Satan.Darkness or "choshek" was created by God as the home of the archon – your satan did not create anythingGod created a natural simile of RA, "choshek" yes, Glad you agree you call this mission to explore and test yester ra. I see it was GOD testing man to avoid the father of darkness, the father of lies, the father of sinning.Either way – it is a Contest for man – man against the world – man against anti-awakening spiritual entities – evil spirits – that the First Century authors called archonThe Controversy is between God and another powerful god being you call satan No – the Contest is between you and self – you and world – you and archonDave: "How about propensities – you have used this term – is it a thing? Rob: "Yes, but I am saying aven (negative powers of DNA genes called propensities of RA) was NOT placed in Adam before he sinned. The propensities only came into Adam after he sinned.You are embracing some type of evolutionary event God said – he created all biology – and all biology reproduces after its own kind There is no re-creation of biology – no change in our biology – no second creationAdam was created sinless, without any memores of sinning in him, no ra or any kind. He was perfect.This is your viewThe Jewish view = man was created sinless in heaven – he was perfect man comes into this world full of memories of God - into a body made of matter complete with yester ra (self – self-preservation-instinct) The Gnostic view - man was created sinless in heaven – he was perfect – he was called Adamus man comes into this world full of memories of God - into a body made of matter complete with yester ra (self – self-preservation-instinct) Jesus a new prince was given earth for a kingdom. God has always had His Kingdom – the multiverse The archon still have this 3D kingdom and will continue to have this as their domain until Rev 21But to rescue man, we have to be freed from death. Sin or RA is a shadow unto death. Not all sins , not all ra is a sin unto death, YES! Agree totally – our rescue is not from another ruler – but from death – the second death (Lake of Fire) - Because all men have sinned at one time or another – Yes – because we are animalD: "OK – Please tell me which of these verse proves that God made ra in response to someone else – man or angel sinningR I hope I have done this. But Scripture is not black and white and easy to read. Some doubt. Others mock. People say it's confusing. Its a parable. Too many similes. Too much poetry. Have you?Dave says Eden had natural ra affects in it before man even existed, like darkness, like natural decay and death, like carnivores such as dinos eating flesh and sharks eating fish. I say these things never existed in Eden until man himself sinned. This includes snow.Dave does not say this at all – Dave says – dinos – sharks – and man all co-existed – but not in the same location Just as you live in Australia and have never seen a North American Bison in the wild Just a I live in America and have never seen a Kangaroo in the wild Eden did not have dinos or sharks – or even Cain or Able – only Adam and Eve until they were ejected Before they choose to leave their first estate by something they choose to do / didThe CYCLIC nature of God's creation - age after age - there is nothing new under the sun - everything that has happened - has happened before - man's just forgets history from one age to the next YES! - totally scriptural YES - totally Gnostic birth - growth - death - and rebirth Gen 1:1 (First age) - Gen 1:2 (First Archon = choshek)- and Gen 1:3 (Light = Christ) Adam and Eve (Second Age) + serpent - death + the promise of Christ (to come later) Lineage of Adam (3rd age) + bane elohiym / nephilim - salvation through one man (Noah is a Christ) Tower of babble (4th age) + Tammuz and Isthar - contest reset - by God Himself and the cycle continues Walk with God until you forget - followed by a reminder and a escape / salvation - Christ If we say GOD cannot create a perfect world, only a flawed world, are we not limiting God's ability to create?If we say GOD cannot create a perfect world – we are denying scripture of Rev 21-22 No one is denying this future event – no one here is denying any scripture Why do you suggest anyone is denying this future eventIt is the the future age
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 16:47:26 GMT -5
R Either RA was placed in our world from the beginning, D or – Yes – Gen 1:2 R it came into our world because man became sinful. – D there are no second creators
Yes correct there is no second creators.
D: "I do not say God cannot Gen 1:1 – no choshek Everything was tov until the First Archon expressed self and chata Then Gen 1:2
R so the First Archon did self, and chata, so sinned. And this happened in Gen 1:2. Now your agreeing with me somewhat... but this angel of yours was created with sinning as it's designed function. But Jude says the angel LEFT it's first estate. Implies it chose to do sinning much later after its Creation. The word "beginning" does not refer to the beginning of time , but the first time something happens in time.
R: "So a universe with entrophy, and friction and natural decay, decomposers, carnivores and such things is a part of GOD's world,
D: "God looked at all that he had made and called it tov R Seiously Dave, I would not call a world filled with decomposers, carnivores and natural death, tov. Such things are not a part of GOD's perfect world.
D: "I will never say God cannot do anything he wants I do say that God is the one and only Creator of the multiverse and our universe of it has entropy R: Yes GOD can create anything. OK, so why does our world have entrophy in it? Obviously something did some missing, causing our world to be missing GOD.
D: "Sure – Agree - Future tense – how does this apply to the past R It is telling us something went wrong with our universe, something caused it to be less than perfect.
Your saying GOD created it that way on purpose for a reason.
I am saying GOD would always create a perfect universe without entrophy.
The Hebrew has a word meaning "missing", obviously something is missing in our universe, GOD's fullest power is. Why? Because there are creatures in this universe doing missing, ie sin.
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D: "1- Every man is not possessed by an archon – but Saul show us clearly its possible 2- the evil spirit here is 100% a servant of God
R: "So you agree GOD uses RA to get man to stop sinning. SO you agree GOD reacts to sinners doing sinning.
( I will not bite on your insisting the evil spirit is 100% a servant of GOD- we have been through this before. / the context clearly the HS opposes the evil spirit (administrated by the HS) doing the evil influence over the man Saul)
D: "So – This is exactly my point – ra is a tool that God uses R Great, so why would GOD create a universe filled with RA, before any sinning happened in it?
D: "Choshek was created to hid away the First Archon – the darkness – the Abyss R Yes, nice statement Dave
So this First Archon did self, chata, and so GOD reacted to his sinning and created RA in our universe. But your Gnostic writings do not teach that? They teach GOD created RA iintentionally before the archon did any sinning, indeed the archon angel came forth from creation sinning immediately.
D: So – This is exactly my point – ra is a tool that God uses R: Your Gnostic writings would not agree with you here. RA was created before the Archon was even doing anything. You would say RA is a tool GOD uses regardless of sinning.
I would disagree violently with this idea, RA only appears because sin appears.
R: "Notice JOhn writes the devil sinneth from the beginning, NOT was created sinning from the beginning. These angels left their first estate because they did sinning on purpose. They chose to sin. D: "I guess there was a moment – between creation and speaking – so what R: so what? It means the sinless angels chose to sin, hence became fallen angels. They LEFT their first sinless estate, and became sinning angels.
D: "YES – the passage is all about King Tyre and a metaphor about an angel – AGREED! R you agree? So GOD is reacting to sinners who sin, and GOD uses RA only to make sinners stop sinning, or to see their sinning.
D: "The First Archon’s first thought was of SELF – and God reacted – correct - AGREE R so it the first archon did sinning, and GOD reacted to His sinning, this means the angel was created sinless and chose to do sinning and GOD reacted to his sinning, using RA as a tool to stop His sinning, or allow the sinner to see his sinning, or as you say create darkness so the sinners sit in their desired condition.
Gnostic writings say GOD used RA before the archon was even created?
The left hand didn't know what te right hand of the Father was doing, the HS made a mistake? Is this kind of RA even possible before anything is ever created? For me NO.
SO Dave, when does GOD use RA? Before sinning as Gnostic writings say, or after sinning as Bible says?
D: "Where is satan laid? – what do you mean – and who are the King of unfallen worlds
R: Satan is a prince of earth, He usurped this from prince Adam, by causing Adam, the prince to sin. Satan was placed on earth, banished to 1/10 of universe because He sinned too. Notice earth itself as a rock was not created, it was Satan's kingdom with all his sinning angels.
The Bane elohiym are princes of other unfallen worlds in other multi-universes watching us. They used to visit GOD, as Job points out, all princes came to GOD for meetings. You have a different theory.
D: "Give me a real life example of how men with swords defiled the work of your satan You speak in circles – man raises up a sword to attack satan and company – OK give me scripture that has man single handedly attacking satan and spoils all of satan’s work
R This is still future Dave.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, (Third coming of Jesus to earth) The new Jersaluem comes down to sit on the plain where the old Jersaluem was.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Our Prophet Ellen White speaks of the great judgement in Revelation, here, after all the people see how things happened, and Satan annd his angels and wicked ready to attack the city... the wicked turn around and attack each other and Satan back. They are angry to have been deceived. The plague (striking) is the quantum decay of life from the atoms of their bodies, they cease to exist. This is than a lake of fire, as magma flows over the earth, and GOD recreates it new, without RA anymore.
D: "I am not allowed to say God created ra Only you can say God created ra R : "Sorry
The discussion is when does GOD use RA as a tool. You say before SIN. (gnostic writings say this)
I say after SIN. (torah writings say this)
Upon this idea rest the entire theology of our world view.
D: "Please ask God why Why did God form the light or create darkness or make peace Why did God create man Why why why?
R The Bible does answer WHY questions Dave.
Some think man was created to replace the angels that sinned.
Darkness was created because some angels sinned, GOD reacts to sin.
God forms light, never creates light, because GOD is light.
D: "Part of God’s Plan = balance – now that is tov – everything in balance Birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the circle of life in balance as God designed R Yes finely tuned to living despite RA, amazing , I agree. 120 decimal places of fine tuning. What does this tell you? The SIN condition requires fine Creative skill to allow it to exist with GOD at all.
How long would entrophy last with a Perfect GOD? Ferroseconds. It would not exist.
SO to make sinning even possible, required 120 decimal accuracy for our constant that drive our universe. Fine tuned to exist with sinning, yes, all designed by ONE creator.
But did this designing come into affect before SIN or after SIN?
God forknew the need for some creatures to SIN, so designed the constants with fine tuning. But the affect of this design did not start until a creature chose to do missing.
Everyting in balance, yes, as a result of sinning spoiling God's creation, slow enough as sinning can exist for a probationary time.
D: "I will stick to scripture as written – I do not have to play word games or invent metaphors to explain away the actual words of scripture R I do not invent metaphors, they are already in the Bible.
OK show me where the sinning angels were created with sinning immediately upon their creation as your Gnostic writings imply, but it's not in the torah? "I will stick to scripture as written " OK where in Scripture is your view, that GOD created a flawed world for man?
You say "Genesis 1:2 the darkness was there to hide the angels that sinned, the serpent was the simile of the angel who first sinned. Yes, but this sin is seen as darkness, but does NOT affect Man's universe of Creation, until Adam the prince, SINS. You write different dimensions, so angels who sin, can exist on earth not affecting man Creation, until the Man, Adam, the prince of Creation, Sins.
Is Adam a prince?
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
"who is the figure of him that was to come" you don't like peotry similes Dave? It's here again. Is Jesus a prince? A second Adam? Than Adam was a first prince.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
You don't like metaphors, poetry parallels, Well Jude writes one here:
Men saved from wicked men, wicked men destroyed in Egypt.
Notice the poetry parallel:
Sinless angels separated from sinning angels, sinning angels to be destroyed on Earth. Sinning angels, like sinning humans both suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jeff Benner says over half of Scripture is poetry.
D: "I do not have to play word games R you don't? Re 12:7 And there was war "polemos" in heaven: I asked you for a NT Bible text that "polemos" means "bustle". You never gave me one.
D: "Romans 1:19-20 – there is so much tov and beauty in God’s creation The amazing cycle of life – birth – growth – death – and rebirth
R: "I would not call all this perfectly TOV, yes it's amazing that sinning exists so long with GOD, and things are beautiful despite sin, but every time a rake up decaying leaves, I see the result of SIN. You do not have this idea in your theology.
D: "God’s handiwork – God’s creation – God’s plan – birth growth – death – and rebirth God’s creation – and it is TOV – and it is completely visible anywhere and everywhere man can look R so this flawed world is all TOV to you? I agree this is wonderful world for sinners so we can sin in God's world, given time to repent, and come back, but it's hardly a TOV world GOD considers perfect.
There is GOD absolute will, and God's compromised will. Sin caused GOD to react to SIN. God's absolute will is compromised because of SIN.
D: "I am smiling – I love this – what a great example – and please do not think I am making fun of you or mocking – but this is such a great example
Why do you think snow is ra
The reason I ask = I moves 1250 miles away from my home of birth – to be in the snow – to live in the snow because it is one of God’s greatest tovs
R: Yes even with Snow Dave, each snowflake is unique and different, such beauty even in RA.
Why is snow ra? Why is rain ra? Because these are extremes of design GOD did not want to come into being, but did come into being because of sin. The new earth is never wanted by rain, only by dew at night.
The new earth has no seasons, always warm, no snow will ever exist again.
In a world of ra, ra is good. I find winter stops predators eating my food. So cold is good in a world of sin.
So yes smile away Dave. I too enjoy snow, it's warm until it melts. Soft and like fairy tales. Truely magic stuff. What an awesome GOD we serve. Able to make a world filled with sin, and yet be functional to a degree.
D: "To me –snow is not only not ra – but a beautiful part of God’s amazingly complex creation all working in balance – tov R Yes
D: "I like the cold better than the heat If it is cold – I can do something about it If it is hot – all we can do is bitch R Yes
But one day we will live near GOD, intense burning, sevenfold light increase upon earth. No more umbra shadows.
D: "Darkness or "choshek" was created by God as the home of the archon – your satan did not create anything R correct
But this post is about does RA come after SIN or before SIN, Dave? Which is it?
God only uses RA when SIN comes. Is my point.
Snow only came when Adam sinned.
Rain only came 1400 years after man sinned, the great flood was the first time for more RA.
This tells you for over 1400 years Adam and other humans were sinning in a world of LESS RA, than we currently know.
A Edenic world, with no snow, no rain, no seasons. Seasons did not come until after the flood.
Hence Dave a world of less RA existed 1400 years before Flood caused more RA.
God did not create a Flawed world for Adam as you suppose.
D: "The Controversy is between God and another powerful god being you call satan R " Dave this world is about SIN or not sin. Which is it? SIN caused GOD to react using RA.
The rest of your statement are little details. Is SIN a powerful thing for GOD to deal with?
What is SIN? a condition missing GOD.... now that's a big problem for GOD don't you think?
D: "Why do you suggest anyone is denying this future event R OK if the next world is perfectly TOV, why can't the first world be also perfectly TOV?
Rain, snow, volcanoes and earthquakes did not come upon earth until the flood of Noah,
1400 years after SIN began in Eden. SO our earth has RA increasing more and more over time.
So this implies in the beginning there was a point where there was no RA.
The big bang of RA, happened only after Adam sinned. And the RA became gradual, more RA over time.
Is there any evidence today of RA events gradually increasing over time?
This is something Science can measure, test, the present, and than assume the past.
We know rain did not come until 1400 years after Adam sinned. Fact.
This suggests to me, that RA increases over time.
Ge 7:11 ¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
This suggests to me hydroplate theory came during flood, causing earthquakes and volcanoes for first time. And salt water, all fish have kidneys. SO again evidence RA increased over time.
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Evidence that RA increased over time.
So if RA increased over time, back in Eden before SIN came there was no RA. But you dispute this idea.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 17, 2020 22:24:16 GMT -5
R Either RA was placed in our world from the beginning, D or – Yes – Gen 1:2 R it came into our world because man became sinful. – D there are no second creatorsYes correct there is no second creators.Then you go one to explain to me how your satan recreated all of God’s creation
R so the First Archon did self, and chata, so sinned. And this happened in Gen 1:2. Now your agreeing with me somewhat... but this angel of yours was created with sinning as it's designed function. Robert – you are so one dimensional – you talk in riddles and in circles You misrepresent the facts – then argue against your own version of my words I am not sure why you do it – do you really not understand me 1- The HS made the First Archon with some matter 2- When the First Archon woke up – his first thought was of self – I am alone therefore I am first 3- YES! This First Archon chata (missed God) with its very first thought and expression So you argue that the First Archon was designed to do only sinning We have an expression in America How do you spell assume – it makes an ASS of U and MEBut Jude says the angel LEFT it's first estate. Implies it chose to do sinning much later after its Creation. The word "beginning" does not refer to the beginning of time , but the first time something happens in time. I totally disagree with your literary assessment of the Greek Even if you are correct – the beginning for the First Archon was Gen 1:2
R: "So a universe with entrophy, and friction and natural decay, decomposers, carnivores and such things is a part of GOD's world, D: "God looked at all that he had made and called it tovR Seiously Dave, I would not call a world filled with decomposers, carnivores and natural death, tov.Such things are not a part of GOD's perfect world. Who cares what your opinion is – God look at it and it was tov from His perspectiveD: "Sure – Agree - Future tense – how does this apply to the past R It is telling us something went wrong with our universe, something caused it to be less than perfect.The future does not prove the past – you are making more assumptions A perfect future only means the present isnot as good – has no comment on why it is not as good – or who is responsibleYour saying GOD created it that way on purpose for a reason.And God looked at it and said it was tovI am saying GOD would always create a perfect universe without entrophy.-------------------- ( I will not bite on your insisting the evil spirit is 100% a servant of GOD- we have been through this before. / the context clearly the HS opposes the evil spirit (administrated by the HS) doing the evil influence over the man Saul)1Sa 16:4 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. [/p] [/quote] Where does this evil spirit come from – who sent this evil spirit – who is commanding this evil spiritevil spirit from the LORDI do not have to deny – or avoid any scriptureWhy do you – because it is not consistent with your two God locked in Controversy doctrine Save the doctrine – dismiss the scripture why would GOD create a universe filled with RA, before any sinning happened in it?Nature is in balance – Ra is not sin – you play word games with the terms RA and sin are different things You think it a sin for a dead body to decay – I say it is just entropy a natural balance of nature D: "Part of God’s Plan = balance – now that is tov – everything in balance Birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the circle of life in balance as God designed R Yes finely tuned to living despite RA, amazing , I agree. 120 decimal places of fine tuning. What does this tell you? The SIN condition requires fine Creative skill to allow it to exist with GOD at all.Amazing – So when scripture says – the heaven declares His handiwork – it is satan’s handiwork they are speaking of – because nothing of God’s tov creation remains – your satan has corrupted everything everywhere – ever turn the flowers into weeds –and sharks changed all their teeth and digestive system from herbivore to carnivore Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Everyting in balance, yes, as a result of sinning spoiling God's creationAnother scripture in error – nothing of God’s tov world remains – your satan changed it all – eve added DNA to biology – Nothing of God’s creation is clearly visible – only satan’s impact upon itSorry – Robert – I do not have to deny any scripture How can you so easily overlook any scripture you do not likeGnostic writings say GOD used RA before the archon was even created?Does it? Not sure of if you are correct or not Ra – has nothing to do with the First Archon sinningSO Dave, when does GOD use RA? Before sinning as Gnostic writings say, or after sinning as Bible says? I cannot answer – please post the Gnostic text from the GPLC version – not Davies The discussion is when does GOD use RA as a tool. You say before SIN. (gnostic writings say this) I will wait for the passage – to respond – but Ra and sin are not the sameI say after SIN. (torah writings say this)Upon this idea rest the entire theology of our world view. But did this designing come into affect before SIN or after SIN? God forknew the need for some creatures to SIN, so designed the constants with fine tuning. But the affect of this design did not start until a creature chose to do missing. D: "I will stick to scripture as written – I do not have to play word games or invent metaphors to explain away the actual words of scripture R I do not invent metaphors, they are already in the Bible.But you accept the metaphor only and dismiss the scriptureD: "I do not have to play word games R you don't? Re 12:7 And there was war "polemos" in heaven: I asked you for a NT Bible text that "polemos" means "bustle". You never gave me one. If you do not appreciated my Greek experience and the information I have tried to share to the best of my ability – I will stop sharing it with you
I have answered this question twice – to the best of my abilities – you do not understand me – or you choose not to listen to meD: "God’s handiwork – God’s creation – God’s plan – birth growth – death – and rebirth God’s creation – and it is TOV – and it is completely visible anywhere and everywhere man can look R so this flawed world is all TOV to you? It is all there for man to find God – the balance – the complexity – it evidence of ‘Intelligent Design’ Over and over science reaches the same conclusion – ‘Intelligent Design’ The mistake – is not giving the credit to GodRom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark. You do not Glorify God – we are not living in God’s tov creation – your satan has changed every corner of itComplete species EVOLED into different creatures You give all the credit – to your satan Your satan is responsible for the world we see – not GodSorry – Robert – Nature is as God intended – so that we could discover God in itBut this post is about does RA come after SIN or before SIN, Dave? Which is it?Ra is not sin – entropy in a system is never a choice – it is inherent to neg-entropy Decay is not a choice – erosion is not a choice Ge 7:11 ¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. This suggests to me hydroplate theory came during flood, causing earthquakes and volcanoes for first time.What a small view - thanks for quoting hydroplate theory on my forum I am so willing to discuss it in great depth – bring it onRain, snow, volcanoes and earthquakes did not come upon earth until the flood of Noah, Question – How did the earth get to the condition it was for Adam – Noah?Psalms 19:1-2 and Romans 19-20 both suggest – that through the telescope we see the truth – and through the microscope we know the truth Earth did not appear fully formed – like magic Earth went through many steps – volcanology – earthquakes – mountains growing – asteroid impacts – meteor impacts – a very primordial violent and hostile place for man or animalTo attempt to prove your simple view – you only have to deny 37 different scientific specialties I do not have to deny scripture or valid scientific evidence
Rain only came 1400 years after man sinned, the great flood was the first time for more RA. Agree – not magic – but a physical change to the atmosphereThis tells you for over 1400 years Adam and other humans were sinning in a world of LESS RA, than we currently know. A LESS RA world – filled with bane elohiym and Nephilim that corrupted all flesh Assumptions are cheap and very disposableA Edenic world, with no snow, no rain, no seasons. Seasons did not come until after the flood. Agree – no rain (therefore no snow) no season because of the firmament (gas giant atm) Hence Dave a world of less RA existed 1400 years before Flood caused more RA.Sure it was – that is why it repented God for making it Sure it was – that is why God destroyed it Yet – we are still hereWhy do I lean in favor of a 'Starburst' event over America Billy Grahm said - 'If God does not judge America - He owes Sodom and gamorrah an appoligy' God did not create a Flawed world for Adam as you suppose.Nope! – God looked at it and it was tov in God’s eyes – not flawedAnd before Adam – were generations of species that came – and died out And before Adam – many physical earth changed occurred to form the planet Adam – was not even the first hominid Adam was just the first homo spaien The big bang of RA, happened only after Adam sinned.Not consistent with scripture – or science Only consistent with your doctrine
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 15:37:47 GMT -5
Greetings Dave God showed me in an impression last night, a dream if you will; two things about your theory, I believe to be very wrong.
The best English word to describe your theory is the word "flawed". Sure I get your idea that GOD designed our world with both tov and ra in it, and by ra you only mean the negative entrophy stuff that causes things to run down. You do not call this ra, a sin, and in fact say it's got nothing to do with sin. However compared to my theory of GOD, I have to use words to contrast with your theory of GOD, and to I use the idea that GOD can only ever create a perfect world without RA of any kind in it. SO we have
(1) Gnosticism. "God creates a flawed world" with both tov and ra in it ; ra meaning negative entrophy. Things run down, things decay and die, friction as loss of heat, rain, snow and volcanoes, and such things, maybe even radiation, cosmic rays, UV rays, neutrinoes that punch holes in our DNA causing loss of information over time, this I take it to mean is negative entrophy, a world of dysfunction in a world of function, and GOD declared all this "very good". Would you say this is a fair assessment of your theology Dave, so far?
We also have the idea
(2) Adventism. God creates always a perfect world with only ever tov in it. Things do not run down, nothing wears out, nothing decays and dies naturally. There is no friction, no UV rays, no neutrinoes, no loss of DNA function, no loss of DNA information, GOD is living, so all His creatures are always living. When plants get eaten by animals all the material is absorbed, even fibre is totally absorbed. Every animal was originally a vegetarian, lions ate grass, sharks ate seaweed, no ocean had salt water, no snow ever fell, no rain ever fell. It sounds utopian, to a reader doesn't it?
Such a world cannot be examined by Science even, because such a world doesn't exist anymore.
So why does our world seem so much like wearing out and running down? Because of sin. One man called Adam, who was the prince of our world in charge of its Creation decided to listen to an angel who also had sinned some time ago before, noticed his wife who sinned first, decided to die with Eve, rather than live alone with GOD. Sin is defined in Scripture as missing. So when Adam the prince of our Creation did missing the powers of GOD, everything under Adam's dominion also experienced missing powers of GOD as well, and so this massive but gradual wearing out and falling of our world came more and more impacting upon GOD's original Creation for mankind.
So to write contrasting words for English readers we have
(1) A flawed world designed by GOD for mankind intended this way, does not require original sin idea. (2) A perfect world designed by GOD for mankind, that became fallen since Adam our Prince originally sinned.
(1) More details: Gnosticism has a flawed world, what we readers experience already and are familar with, so we have a body of matter with natural flawed elements in it, which is termed yester ra, that cause us to become sinners if we allow this negative entrophy to influence our thinking and our doing.
Gnosticism also has good angels doing bad jobs. These angels were designed to be sinning from their Creation, and so test mankind, causing the natural negative entrophy to influence our thinking and our doing. Such angels are designed to remember our sins and prosecute us in the heavenly court room, so we cannot be pardoned by GOD.
(2) More details: Adventism has a fallen world, that used to be perfect, but became fallen because Adam our prince over Creation sinned, bringing RA into it. RA is defined as all things dysfunctional, that causes all things to wear out and decay. The human mind does not battle so much with a fallen body, but with the daily need to support Jesus and allow a divine power to flow through us. If this continual support is not achieved, than we experience missing the powers of divinity flowing through us. Hence our minds daily fight the good fight of support (also termed faith).
Adventism also have other beings called angels who began to do sinning long before man ever existed. The first angel who sinned is termed an Opposer of GOD, because SIN directly opposes GOD, and is by definition dysfunctional and therefore a fruit of RA. When creatures sin, GOD has to engineer RA so sinners can see their sinning. God only ever does RA because of SIN and therefore reacts when creatures SIN. The first angel who sinned is termed popularly as Satan, a Hebrew word meaning oppose, and is called in Scripture the father of lies. Satan remembers human sinning because he prosecutes man, to keep every sinning human in Satan's Kingdom. If any human tries to support God's salvation system, Satan get jealous and attacks the man with every temptation, to break off this support with Divinity Powers.
Now to my questions, from last night:
(1) If everything is flawed, with negative entropy, than I have an excuse for my sinning before GOD. My yester RA in my body causes my yester tov mind to sin, hence it's not really my fault, but God's fault since God created me this way? And this flawed condition never goes away, even after I take hold of God's salvation?
Only after my mortal death, does my spirit get the fullest release from a flawed body, to serve GOD perfectly.
(2) If everything is flawed, nothing is perfect, therefore my GOD I worship is flawed too? Why should I worship Him? God cannot deal with negative entrophy. In fact negative entrophy is a part of GOD.
If GOD kills humans and love humans, how is this a GOD I aspire to? If GOD deals with negative entrophy as a natural cycle of creation, than natural death did not come from sin, but from negative entropy?
If God also loves but also hates and kills humans He hates, how can I relate with feelings to a GOD like that? There is nothing uptopian about GOD, if God deals with negative entrophy. Nothing absolute about GOD. Surely GOD can create perfection, without nothing taking His powers away? Surely GOD can create a flower when picked from the plant will keep on living? Isn't GOD the only source of living? Can't GOD achieve anything He likes? This utopian GOD is required, otherwise I have nothing powerful to hope for, nothing greater than me?
God has to be an uncaused cause, a God of supreme love and tov all the time. Otherwise I have nothing absolute to aspire to.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This one verse, destroys your arguement Dave. Death, meaning natural death came from SIN, not from natural design, you call entrophy or RA.
Gnostic writings say GOD made a mistake, without a consort, the creature immediately says I am like god, arrogant. All suggest to me a GOD who is flawed as well. Not an absolute GOD of LOVE.
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"1- The HS made the First Archon with some matter 2- When the First Archon woke up – his first thought was of self – I am alone therefore I am first 3- YES! This First Archon chata (missed God) with its very first thought and expression
Here is proof of my question to you. "with some matter" obviously with negative entropy in it? Other Gnostic writings say the HS made a mistake, can't GOD create without negative entrophy?
Here is proof of my question to you. "his first thought was of self " so "self" was already in the creature? The creature began flawed, so sinning is a natural consequence of a flawed creation? Not my fault I sin, the angel says, GOD made me that way?
D: "Nature is in balance – Ra is not sin – you play word games with the terms RA and sin are different things You think it a sin for a dead body to decay – I say it is just entropy a natural balance of nature
R: Hmm, please define RA than for me, include the specific moral ra and natural ra? Also explain when does RA become a sin?
Yes Dave, it is "a sin for a dead body to decay".
Ro 14:23 for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.(KJV)
If negative entrophy does not support GOD, than by definition using negative entrophy is a sin, therefore God sins. The above text says everything must support GOD functionally.
Having DNA wear out, lose vital infromation over time, is not functional, therefore a fruit of sin. Such a condition is NOT supporting GOD.
Friction does not support GOD either. Friction is a loss of energy. God is not going to walk around losing a bit of Himself as He walks. So this negative entrophy thing is foreign to GOD, alien to GOD. Only exists because SIN exists.
D: "it is satan’s handiwork they are speaking of – because nothing of God’s tov creation remains – your satan has corrupted everything everywhere – ever turn the flowers into weeds –and sharks changed all their teeth and digestive system from herbivore to carnivore
R: Satan did not change anything as you assume. Maybe He might have changed a few things, your Gnostic writings say this too. But overall the loss of GOD explains most changes.
For example, if the soil loses vitality, than spiders can't drink nectar anymore, because plants can't get food they used to, so use their silk to catch flies instead. Animals changed their diets because the food wasn't around for them. Genes can switch on or off, no need for a second creator. And no need for Satan spoiling things, even though Satan did spoil things when He sinned first. Satan spoiled the way GOD does things.
D: "Another scripture in error – nothing of God’s tov world remains – your satan changed it all – R I have never said that? Satan has not changed much at all. Where did you get this idea? Not from me?
Satan spoiled the way GOD does things. God creates the RA so sinners see their sinning. Not Satan. But the weird manner of SIN, requiring GOD reacting to SINNING; is NOT something GOD loves to do. God would rather have a sinless universe without RA in it. And by RA I mean, any slight hints of sinning.
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D: I will wait for the passage – to respond – but Ra and sin are not the same
You asked for evidence that GNostic writings "God is flawed" (my words)
Here is a passage from Apocryphon of JOhn,
gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html
"And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration.
Is this not a moral RA, to disobey, show no respect to other expressions of GOD? An example that GOD is flawed as well??
"And though the person of her maleness had not approved, and she had not found her agreement, and she had thought without the consent of the Spirit and the knowledge of her agreement, (yet) she brought forth. And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance,
How can GOD create something imperfect? I thought GOD was absolute and perfect and always with love? An example that GOD is flawed as well??
" because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.
How is this possible? Creating without the Father's consort? An example that GOD is flawed as well??
"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth. "This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother.
How is this possible? How can a creature take power from divinity in this arrogant manner?
"And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born. He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now. And he joined with his arrogance which is in him and begot authorities for himself.
How can an angel pro-create? Jesus says in heaven we are like angels, not given into marriage. Therefore angels cannot reproduce. In heaven, human pro-creation is also switched off.
The name of the first one is Athoth, whom the generations call the reaper. The second one is Harmas, who is the eye of envy. The third one is Kalila-Oumbri. The fourth one is Yabel. The fifth one is Adonaiou, who is called Sabaoth. The sixth one is Cain, whom the generations of men call the sun. The seventh is Abel. The eighth is Abrisene. The ninth is Yobel. The tenth is Armoupieel. The eleventh is Melceir-Adonein. The twelfth is Belias, it is he who is over the depth of Hades. And he placed seven kings -
Only GOD sets up kings, not angels? No where in torah does an angel make kings. Therefore your Gnostic writings are flawed, they disagree with the Torah??
"each corresponding to the firmaments of heaven - over the seven heavens, and five over the depth of the abyss, that they may reign. And he shared his fire with them, but he did not send forth from the power of the light which he had taken from his mother, for he is ignorant darkness. "And when the light had mixed with the darkness, it caused the darkness to shine.
How is this possible? Darkness is the absence of light, not a substance to mix with light? You cannot as a painter, mix any colour to make black.
And when the darkness had mixed with the light, it darkened the light and it became neither light nor dark, but it became dim.
How is this possible? You can using sprectrum of light spin the colours of light to make something dim. So does Yaltabaoth have permission from GOD to use God's powers in a dysfunctional way?
"Now the archon who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.
How can Yaltabaoth say I am GOD, when He is only an angel? Is this choosing to sin, or a programmed function of sinning?
"And the archons created seven powers for themselves, and the powers created for themselves six angels for each one until they became 365 angels
Explain how angels are creators? Scripture says angels cannot pro-create?
Mt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
------------------------ D: "Your satan is responsible for the world we see – not God R Not so. I would never agree with this statement. Sin caused our world to decay and fall, but the RA associated in its fall was designed by GOD, not by Satan. If Satan had full power over all things, nothing would exist, not even Satan. Satan is just a Spoiler who spoils. Or an Opposer who opposes. Or a Wanderer who wanders. Therefore all things, even in a world of sinning, has to be engineered by GOD to exist. God is a Lover who loves.
God even loves sinners (within limits) and creates a world of RA, so sinners can exist.
D: "Ra is not sin – entropy in a system is never a choice – it is inherent to neg-entropy Decay is not a choice – erosion is not a choice R I see. I beg to differ. But's that's OK. If a designed my car to fail with its braking system over time, I would say something is missing in its design. A perfect car should last forever. Well the FJ lasts for over 100 years, not bad. But rust tells you the atoms of Iron are missing connections. Crystal Iron would be more perfect. Man can only dream to make crystal iron. But even than the quantum spins off the iron sub atomic particles sometimes. Man can only dream to make iron that is stable with it's sub atomic spins. No missing at any level.
Only my GOD can make a car last forever.
D:"What a small view - thanks for quoting hydroplate theory on my forum I am so willing to discuss it in great depth – bring it on R your welcome. Soon I will investigate this, I like to dig into Science sometimes too.
D: "And before Adam – were generations of species that came – and died out R I see. How did this fit into day 6 when Adam was made on day 6 too? It takes time for things to die out? Yom is specific time, where did your time come from?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 18, 2020 19:47:16 GMT -5
(1) Gnosticism. "God creates a flawed world" with both tov and ra in it ; ra meaning negative entrophy. Things run down, things decay and die, friction as loss of heat, rain, snow and volcanoes, and such things, maybe even radiation, cosmic rays, UV rays, neutrinoes that punch holes in our DNA causing loss of information over time, this I take it to mean is negative entrophy, a world of dysfunction in a world of function, and GOD declared all this "very good". Would you say this is a fair assessment of your theology Dave, so far?Gnosticism “God creates everything – there is nothing created that was not created by God – there is no second creator” Scripture says – God created the tov and the ra – EVERYTHING! Does that mean this world is flawed? Never is that term used or implied! You are the source for this view. God look at it and called it tov.In this 3D reality entropy is inherent to neg-entropy – entropy is a by-product of physical creation Scripture says clearly Psa 19:2 (TLV) The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork. Rom 1:19 (TLV) because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 (TLV) His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— When we look through our telescope - we see - a balance in the cosmos with tov and ra - with neg-entropy and entropy When we look through the microscope - we see - a balance in nature with tov and ra - neg-entropy and entropyand the only Intelligent conclusion - Intelligent designGen 1:31 So God saw everything that He made, and behold it was very good. So there was evening and there was morning—the sixth day. We also have the idea (2) Adventism. God creates always a perfect world with only ever tov in it. Such a world cannot be examined by Science even, because such a world doesn't exist anymore.So Psalms 19:2 and Romans 1:19-20 declares satan’s Glory – satan’s creation All hail satan It is satan worshipSo why does our world seem so much like wearing out and running down? Because of sin. One man called Adam, So – God created everything tov – but no one can ever discover it because after Adam things evolved into something other than what God createdSo to write contrasting words for English readers we have (1) A flawed world designed by GOD for mankind intended this way, does not require original sin idea. (2) A perfect world designed by GOD for mankind, that became fallen since Adam our Prince originally sinned.(1) An amazing creation COMPLTETE with tov and ra in a intricate balance of nature – that if man really looks with an open ming can only conclude “Intelligent Design” – Praise God Or (2) A perfect world created for man (Complete with an amazing nature) – and when Eve sinned – man lost his immortality – and lost his abilty to see into the spirit world By one man – all men became mortal By this same man – nature continued on as it had always done for 1000s of years before man(1) More details: Gnosticism has a flawed world, what we readers experience already and are familar with, so we have a body of matter with natural flawed elements in it, which is termed yester ra, that cause us to become sinners if we allow this negative entrophy to influence our thinking and our doing.Gnosticism has a flawed world – ancient Gnosticism saw this reality as the corruption – because it is brutish and away from God
The Gnostic literature by the same authors of the agl – do not make this claim The Gnostic literature claims this world is as exactly as God intended to be the Contest battel ground This world comes with nature – nature is in balance between tov and ra in a cycle of birth – growth- death – and rebirthGnosticism also has good angels doing bad jobs. God is the Commander of all the angels – any angel God picks to do a job – does the job Sometimes that job is to deliver a message Sometimes that job is to battel Sometimes that job is to test Angels obey God Any religion that promotes that angels do not obey God – now that would be flawed Any religion that promotes than any angel can stand up to God and disobey – is flawed And any religion that promotes that satan is powerful enough to change all of God’s creation against God’s will – is flawed – and borders on satan worshipThese angels were designed to be sinning from their Creation, and so test mankind, causing the natural negative entrophy to influence our thinking and our doing. Such angels are designed to remember our sins and prosecute us in the heavenly court room, so we cannot be pardoned by GOD.The First Archon was made from some matter – his first thought was of self (yes this is a chata) The Archon were ejected from heaven – into earth – space/time – the cosmos There (or here) the archon live in self – selfish – me – me And we are walking through their domain Adventism also have other beings called angels who began to do sinning long before man ever existed. The first angel who sinned is termed an Opposer of GOD, because SIN directly opposes GOD, and is by definition dysfunctional and therefore a fruit of RAYES! You have an angel – that disobeys God to his face – and become another god like power that is able to redefine all of God’s creation in his own terms All Hail satan - satan worshipIn fact – not only has your satan changed all of God’s creation that science cannot even see it anymore – but – 1/3rd of all of God’s angels prefer to follow your satan than the One True Creator All Hail satan - satan worship Gnostics have – the First Archon – but when he expressed his first arrogant thoughtThe Second Treatise of the Great Seth - The Nag Hammadi LibraryFor the Archon was a laughingstock because he said, "I am God, and there is none greater than I.Now to my questions, from last night: (1) If everything is flawed, with negative entropy, than I have an excuse for my sinning before GOD. My yester RA in my body causes my yester tov mind to sin, hence it's not really my fault, but God's fault since God created me this way? And this flawed condition never goes away, even after I take hold of God's salvation? Too bad you deny the spirit Too bad that you see this world and only flawed Too Bad your God is not as strong as your satan
My yester ra body desires world – correct – this is a sin – correct My Yester tov soul desires the Lord – this is the inner struggle = personal Just you against you Just you – with the help of the HS against you and the world Just you – with the help of the Comforter – against you – and the world – and the evil principalities against you Only after my mortal death, does my spirit get the fullest release from a flawed body, to serve GOD perfectly.NO WAY! – the only way we can complete our mission is to be here This is our service to the Lord – to complete our mission in this world And we are judge for it in the next(2) If everything is flawed, nothing is perfect, therefore my GOD I worship is flawed too? Why should I worship Him? God cannot deal with negative entrophy. In fact negative entrophy is a part of GOD.THIS IS THE EXACT LEGECY OF ROMAN CHRISTENDOm and its FEEL GOOD theology IF GOD = LOVE, MERCY, Compassion and If everything is flawed, nothing is perfect, therefore NO GOD – or a weak God – or a God that does not careIf GOD kills humans and love humans, how is this a GOD I aspire to? If GOD deals with negative entrophy as a natural cycle of creation, than natural death did not come from sin, but from negative entropy?The answer lies with why those humans were killed – to prove to the whole world that the God of Israel is the One True GodJoshua – crossed the river Jordan – out-numbered But as long as Israel walked with God – their enemies fell before them –regardless of be out-numbered This is the entire saga of the ahl - If GOD kills humans and love humans, how is this a GOD I aspire to?Evidently – you miss the lesson of the ahl – the God of Israel = The One True God! Evidently – you miss the lesson of Armageddon – the God of Israel = The One True God! There is nothing uptopian about GOD, if God deals with negative entrophy. Currently - God’s utopia is in heaven – not here in 3D physical earthSurely GOD can create perfection, without nothing taking His powers away? Surely GOD can create a flower when picked from the plant will keep on living? Isn't GOD the only source of living? Can't GOD achieve anything He likes? This utopian GOD is required, otherwise I have nothing powerful to hope for, nothing greater than me?You argue in circles – against yourself Your argument here is that God could not make a perfect world God tried to make a perfect world – but your satan change it allRo 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: You do not make man special from any other animal – man is just a cow to you And his sin – affected the trees – the ants – and the fish in the sea For me man is special – and Eve’s sin affected all menThis one verse, destroys your arguement Dave. Death, meaning natural death came from SIN, not from natural design, you call entrophy or RA.Natural death came to man – because we are all sinnersGnostic writings say GOD made a mistake, without a consort, the creature immediately says I am like god, arrogant. All suggest to me a GOD who is flawed as well. Not an absolute GOD of LOVE.You claim God made a mistake when he made your satanWhich is it Robert – the First Archon was by design – who is under God’s controlOr your God made a mistake when He created your satan – who hates God and opposes God (except satan obeys God at each verse in scripture) Yes Dave, it is "a sin for a dead body to decay". Ro 14:23 for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.(KJV)What do instructions for the living have to do with lifeless objects So – it is a sin to drive into town and buy groceriesHaving DNA wear out, lose vital information over time, is not functional, therefore a fruit of sin. Such a condition is NOT supporting GOD. YES- ROBERT – man is mortal You think it a sin to grow old? - D: "it is satan’s handiwork they are speaking of – because nothing of God’s tov creation remains – your satan has corrupted everything everywhere – ever turn the flowers into weeds –and sharks changed all their teeth and digestive system from herbivore to carnivore R: Satan did not change anything as you assume. WHAT - R: " So a universe with entrophy, and friction and natural decay, decomposers, carnivores and such things is a part of GOD's world, D: " God looked at all that he had made and called it tovR Seiously Dave, I would not call a world filled with decomposers, carnivores and natural death, tov. Such things are not a part of GOD's perfect world. Your saying GOD created it that way on purpose for a reason. I am saying GOD would always create a perfect universe without entrophy. [/p][/quote] Such a world cannot be examined by Science even, because such a world doesn't exist anymore. Which view is yours?You satan changed everything so that nothing of God’s creation remains Or your satan changed nothing Volcanos blew up – earthquakes happened – dino’s ripped one another apart R: Satan did not change anything as you assume.D: I will wait for the passage – to respond – but Ra and sin are not the same You asked for evidence that GNostic writings "God is flawed" (my words) Here is a passage from Apocryphon of JOhn,gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html "And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration. Is this not a moral RA, to disobey, show no respect to other expressions of GOD? An example that GOD is flawed as well?? 1- YES – there is a flaw here – taking the words - he had not approved - out of context We no idea what the original verb might have been It is just arrogant to build a doctrine all around one word2- YES! There is a flaw here – taking one scripture out of context of the whole – and building a doctrine all around one verse – or passageExample – cherub chata I will let scripture answer for me Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi LibraryAnd before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish. The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibraryNow all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety. … But it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being – after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained.How is this possible? Creating without the Father's consort?So – by examining - the bulk of scripture – your argument is flawed How can GOD create something imperfect? - An example that GOD is flawed as well??God made man – mortal man is not perfect - do I need to say moreI am sorry you think God flawed – I was never taught to judge God "This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother. How is this possible? How can a creature take power from divinity in this arrogant manner?You amaze me – your satan takes over all of God’s creation Then you ask – how is such a thing possiblePlace this passage back in context – you will see that the First Archon has no power of his own - "And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born. He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now. And he joined with his arrogance which is in him and begot authorities for himself. How can an angel pro-create? Jesus says in heaven we are like angels, not given into marriage. Therefore angels cannot reproduce. In heaven, human pro-creation is also switched off.Angels – created by God = 100% spirit – spirit does not marry or reproduce Archon are made with some matter – matter reproduces And these are the archon – that left their first estate – moved away from the place they were bornThe name of the first one is Athoth, whom the generations call the reaper. The second one is Harmas, who is the eye of envy. The third one is Kalila-Oumbri. The fourth one is Yabel. The fifth one is Adonaiou, who is called Sabaoth. The sixth one is Cain, whom the generations of men call the sun. The seventh is Abel. The eighth is Abrisene. The ninth is Yobel. The tenth is Armoupieel. The eleventh is Melceir-Adonein. The twelfth is Belias, it is he who is over the depth of Hades. And he placed seven kings - Only GOD sets up kings, not angels? No where in torah does an angel make kings. Therefore your Gnostic writings are flawed, they disagree with the Torah?? Angels are not made of matter Angels domain is not 3D physical reality Archon are made with some matter Archon’s domain = 3D physical reality In 3D physical reality – King are set up all the time – history is filled with kings – rulers in an hierarchal structure – The Boss – the General manager – the Supervisor – the night supervisor – the shift leader – and the guy in charge of a small detail Ephesians 6:12 tell us – not to deny the reality we find ourselves – you cannot fight the fight without understand who the enemy is YOU – take cherub chata – and build an entire doctrine around two wordsSomething God made PERFECT – evolved on its own into something different by its own powerThen your satan takes over God’s creation and corrupts everything - mosquitos begin to eat blood In fact – you satan changes creation so much that Such a world cannot be examined by Science even, because such a world doesn't exist anymore. "each corresponding to the firmaments of heaven - over the seven heavens, and five over the depth of the abyss, that they may reign. And he shared his fire with them, but he did not send forth from the power of the light which he had taken from his mother, for he is ignorant darkness. "And when the light had mixed with the darkness, it caused the darkness to shine. How is this possible? Darkness is the absence of light, not a substance to mix with light? You cannot as a painter, mix any colour to make black.You think so small – one dimensional
Gnostic reality 10 Dimension / heavens / realities 1,2,&3 = God, HS, Christ and our world – a 3D reality Above us = 7 more dimensions – localities – realms / heaven filled with life forms and activity What is Hades – and the Abyss Hebrew has ‘The Grave’ and ‘Gehenna’ Greeks have Hades and the Tartartus Hades = all of the unseen / all of the invisible / all of the 7 other dimensions / heavens above us All Greeks went to hades – Good and Bad went to the land of the unseen – some end up in Tartarus All Jews go to ‘The Grave’ – Good and Bad – some end up in Gehenna The Abyss = Gehenna / Tatarus / ‘Christian Hell’ – choshek – the home of the First Archon / The Beast And he shared his fire with them, but he did not send forth from the power of the light which he had taken from his mother, for he is ignorant darkness. The First Archon has no power of his own The HS is the sustainer of all things everywhere – the either / matrix The Gospel of Philip - The Nag Hammadi LibraryThe Holy Spirit shepherds everyone and rules all the powers, the "tame" ones and the "wild" ones, as well as those which are unique.And when the light had mixed with the darkness, it caused the darkness to shine. “SHINE” – glow – be active – be successful – workingAnd when the darkness had mixed with the light, it darkened the light and it became neither light nor dark, but it became dim. The Apocryphon of John - The Nag Hammadi Library"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth.
"This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother.
Choshek = dim – a hiding place – the Abyss How do I know this is the Abyss of Rev 20 Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are too, We are never told that the Beast is case into the Lake of Fire Why – because he is already there – in the darkness - choshek "Now the archon who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.
How can Yaltabaoth say I am GOD, when He is only an angel? Is this choosing to sin, or a programmed function of sinning?The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library"Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter. The First Archon woke up – and thought himself alone – and therefore thought himself the firstExplain how angels are creators? Scripture says angels cannot pro-create?Again archons are not angels – Archon are made with some matter – angels are not All things made with matter - procreateIf a designed my car to fail with its braking system over time, I would say something is missing in its design. If you make your car out of matter – one day it will stop running and rust into dustOnly my GOD can make a car last forever.God did not make that car for this world – perhaps in the nextD: "And before Adam – were generations of species that came – and died out R I see. How did this fit into day 6 when Adam was made on day 6 too? It takes time for things to die out? Yom is specific time, where did your time comeTime is not linear God’s day and man’s day are never the same Day 6 could have taken millions of man years let alone man days Day 7 – has been ongoing now for how long – 5000 yrs or 500,000 yrs Any discussion time is as 24hr man days – denies scripture and scienceBut you don’t seem to any problems with denying scripture2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night. I do not have to deny any scripture – I embrace it
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 14:21:38 GMT -5
Dave writes: "Any religion that promotes than any angel can stand up to God and disobey – is flawed And any religion that promotes that satan is powerful enough to change all of God’s creation against God’s will – is flawed – and borders on satan worship D: "In fact – not only has your satan changed all of God’s creation that science cannot even see it anymore – but – 1/3rd of all of God’s angels prefer to follow your satan than the One True Creator All Hail satan - satan worship
Since your theory has removed the fact angels cannot sin, they simply obey GOD and sin because they are allowed to sin, that is their function, designed to test humans. Humans only have free will, not angels. You can conveniently removed much of Scripture's story about SIN.
So if GOD designed everything with negative entrophy also in mind, and designed some angels to test humans to follow this negative influence, how would you define SIN? Do you have anything coming from Adam's original and first SIN?
Rather you see Eve sinning first, but Scripture writes that Adam's SIN caused death, not natural entropy? Can you explain this problem?
Would you agree that SIN, and hence SINNING flaws GOD's universe?
R: (1) If everything is flawed, with negative entropy, than I have an excuse for my sinning before GOD.
D: Too bad you deny the spirit Too bad that you see this world and only flawed Too Bad your God is not as strong as your satan
R: you didn't answer my question Dave. Please elaborate.
R: Only after my mortal death, does my spirit get the fullest release from a flawed body, to serve GOD perfectly. D: "NO WAY! – the only way we can complete our mission is to be here This is our service to the Lord – to complete our mission in this world R: OK, so explain what I said was wrong and why it is wrong.
R: (2) If everything is flawed, nothing is perfect, therefore my GOD I worship is flawed too? D: "THIS IS THE EXACT LEGECY OF ROMAN CHRISTENDOm and its FEEL GOOD theology IF GOD = LOVE, MERCY, Compassion and If everything is flawed, nothing is perfect, therefore NO GOD – or a weak God – or a God that does not care R: You didn't answer my query Dave....
R: "If GOD kills humans and love humans, how is this a GOD I aspire to? D: "Evidently – you miss the lesson of the ahl – the God of Israel = The One True God! R: Not a powerful answer Dave. Same reason I couldn't be a Muslim. They worship Allah who kills people. Not a Father of love.
R: "There is nothing uptopian about GOD, if God deals with negative entrophy. D: "Currently - God’s utopia is in heaven – not here in 3D physical earth
R :Utopia is not just a place, Utopia is also a Being, GOD. You mis-driected my question. A utopian allpowerful allknowing GOD is NOT going to play around with negative entrophy.
D: "You argue in circles – against yourself Your argument here is that God could not make a perfect world God tried to make a perfect world – but your satan change it all R: Dave you do not see what SIN is. SIN is a flawed function opposing GOD.
My argument is GOD did create a perfect world, but SIN spoiled it.
Forget this Satan thing for now, it spoils your thinking. You don't have angels opposing GOD anyway, so leave the concept alone. And NEVER mention again that Satan changed it all. "Satan changed nothing. Adam changed it all. Adam's SIN changed our world from being perfect". (do not misquote my context here)
Adam's sin wrought death upon all humans. (NOT Satan, OK, are we clear on this?)
Personally I can't stand you using Satan all the time, forget Him, I don't care to know. If you don't see angels with free will, that your concern, I will try other means to get you to see truth.... I noticed you have no provision for original sin, the first time Adam sinned. Why is that?
R posts: Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Dave replies: "You do not make man special from any other animal – man is just a cow to you And his sin – affected the trees – the ants – and the fish in the sea For me man is special – and Eve’s sin affected all men
R your changing themes Dave, Bible texts are written for a reason. Death is death. Stop playing word games. Adam's sin wrought death upon all things, even the entire universe, everything began to decay.
God is NOT going to make different systems of living for different creatures. Adam was prince over creation, in charge of Creation's destiny, and Adam sinned.
R: "This one verse, destroys your arguement Dave. Death, meaning natural death came from SIN, not from natural design, you call entrophy or RA. D: Natural death came to man – because we are all sinners
R what do you mean by this Dave? What is a sinner? A perfect creature who chooses to sin, now becomes flawed? Or a flawed creature who sins because he is flawed, a natural consequence of the flaw?
D: "You think it a sin to grow old? R Our DNA does not grow old Dave, our DNA loses information over time, hence rebuilds mistakes over time that give the appearance we look old.
Why does our DNA lose information? Can your Gnostic writings answer this?
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
The HS groans that we live with DNA losing information, making errors.
Why does our body make errors?
You say it is because we were designed that way by GOD? Not a powerful GOD you serve? Can't God make our DNA never lose information, with complex error seeking correction coding?
Our bodies experience aven, genetic decay because of sin.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked
Poetry simile here, naked comes from Adam's first SIN.
R: "R: Satan did not change anything as you assume. D: WHAT - The quotes you use about me, do not add to your surprise. R: "So a universe with entrophy, and friction and natural decay, decomposers, carnivores and such things is a part of GOD's world, R Yes, true, GOD deals with sinners even in a sinful world, still beauty in it, snow for example. God doesn't abandon us. God reacts to SIN and sinners who sin, hence creates RA, so sinners see their sinning, safely even, so they have time to repent, it they choose this.
D: "Which view is yours? You satan changed everything so that nothing of God’s creation remains Or your satan changed nothing
Dave, SIN changed everything, Adam's SIN in particular for our world. Satan may have added some things, but all things are carefully controlled by GOD.
Gnostic writings speak nothing of Adam's SIN affecting our perfect world making it a fallen world.
Gnostic writings speak of a flawed world designed that way from the beginning by GOD.
This difference of view Dave is huge, makes us east from west.
I have a once perfect world that becomes a fallen world because of SIN by Adam. You have a flawed world that remains a flawed world, where humans choose yester tov and disdain yester ra. You don't have an original SIN problem in your view.
D: 1- YES – there is a flaw here – taking the words - he had not approved - out of context We no idea what the original verb might have been It is just arrogant to build a doctrine all around one word
2- YES! There is a flaw here – taking one scripture out of context of the whole – and building a doctrine all around one verse – or passage R thank you. But I accept the translation may be poor, ...
D: I will let scripture answer for me
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. R: Your NOT saying Dave that GOD also created SIN?
Surely there has to be something GOD cannot create? God cannot create disobedience.
You quote: "And nothing came into being without his wish.
Rob: so does GOD also create sin? can GOD also create disobedience? even arrogance? Your quote: "after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained.
Rob: so does GOD also create sin? can GOD also create disobedience? even arrogance?
D: "So – by examining - the bulk of scripture – your argument is flawed R Dave you did NOT examine Scripture, only false misleading writings written by Simon Magnus. I don't mean to be nasty, but you don't read Torah for answers like I do. SO does GOD also create sin? can GOD also create disobedience? even arrogance?
I imagine your answer is yes, GOD even creates sin, arrogance, self and disobedience?
D: "You amaze me – your satan takes over all of God’s creation R No Dave, my opposing creature does not take over anything, only bring SIN into God's world, and GOD deals with SIN, not Satan. Your Gnostic writings speak about "This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother." something totally foreign in my thinking. totally weird to me. Only your archons even change the creation of man, in my theology archons have nothing to do with creating man, ever. Stop turning the queries around.
D: "Archon are made with some matter – matter reproduces R your opinion, not Scripture. Snakes have DNA for legs too, but crawl. The genes are switched off. Angels have genes switched off for pro-creation, torah says so.
D: "In 3D physical reality – King are set up all the time – history is filled with kings R you change themes again. Angels are not human. Angels have robotic programming according to you, not free will, so only obey GOD. Gnostic writings speak of angels doing this and that? How is this possible, without God's demanding it?
D: "YOU – take cherub chata – and build an entire doctrine around two words R these two Hebrew words, only explain WHO sinned first. Other than that, nothing is built around them. Our perfect world now marred with negative entrophy is caused entirely by Adam's SIN. Period.
D: "you quote me "Such a world cannot be examined by Science even, because such a world doesn't exist anymore. " to mock me. Science cannot test a perfect world if its fallen. only looking at things based on assumptions.
D: "The Gospel of Philip - The Nag Hammadi Library The Holy Spirit shepherds everyone and rules all the powers, the "tame" ones and the "wild" ones, as well as those which are unique. R so are you saying the HS shepherds sinners who sin? Explain please.
R: "Explain how angels are creators? Scripture says angels cannot pro-create? D Again archons are not angels – Archon are made with some matter – angels are not All things made with matter - procreate
R wow, I didn't know this? Archons are not angels? What are they then? A Hebrew word please? And an OT text.
Angels are cherub. So what are archons than?
D: "God did not make that car for this world – perhaps in the next R Really? explain this car than in heaven?
Eze 1:19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
SOunds like a "car" whatever that word means, to me?
D: "Time is not linear God’s day and man’s day are never the same Day 6 could have taken millions of man years let alone man days R Sorry but Jews also say "yom" means a day of time. On other worlds time is relative, but time is not relative on the same frame of reference. Earth yom, is linear.
D: "But you don’t seem to any problems with denying scripture
2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night.
I do not have to deny any scripture – I embrace it R: Again you are changing themes.
God looks from another frame of reference, hence His time is different. On earth our time is linear, since we have our own reference. Don't you understand relativity?
Our world was created using six yoms of time, proof? putonium haloes formed in nanoseconds. granite rocks called into existence within seconds of time.
When we gaze into the other frames of time, they look old, yes. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 19, 2020 19:52:11 GMT -5
Since your theory has removed the fact angels cannot sin, they simply obey GOD and sin because they are allowed to sin, that is their function, designed to test humans. Humans only have free will, not angels. You can conveniently removed much of Scripture's story about SIN.
Angels praise and obey God – yester tov (if it applies to them) Angels are not made of matter – they are spirit Archon are following self – yester ra (if it applies to them) Archon are made with matter - Man is special – we are both – yester tov + yester ra – (spirit + (Mind/Body)) - therefore man has choice
So if GOD designed everything with negative entrophy also in mind, and designed some angels to test humans to follow this negative influence, how would you define SIN? I would say – God designed everything – including tov and ra – And the archon are USED by God – to test man The test IS NOT to follow this negative influence But the test is if you LOVE God with all of your heart, Mind, and soul
Sin – is a choice – The choice = should I follow yester ton or yester ra If you CHOOSE to follow yester ra over yester ton – it is a SIN What is yester tov – gnosis of God and our mission here on earth and acting upon it Remembering God and reawakening that spirit to spirit communion with God This is the only Mitzvah that matters
To choose any other option = sin To choose football over God = sin Work 22hrs a day – make a lot of money for your family – tithe – donate – never see your children – always bust with work and business – a pillar of the community All of it sin – if it does not bring you to God
You are lazy – and just lay on the beech- you never accomplish anything – and you never make any attempt to know the Lord = all sin
To waste time in knowing the Lord is a sin
Do you have anything coming from Adam's original and first SIN? Absolutely – man lost his immortality – man became mortal and man lost his ability to see into the heavens – lost the ability to see God’s creation – now we can only see 3D physicality for it is brutish (of this world – not the next)
Rather you see Eve sinning first, but Scripture writes that Adam's SIN caused death, not natural entropy? Can you explain this problem? Adam is man Eve sinned first (the female) and it affected all men – all man
Would you agree that SIN, and hence SINNING flaws GOD's universe? Sinning flaws you and you only – your sin = your sin If I sin – the birds are unaffected – the mountains do not care My sin only affects me
I am just me – I am not the first homo sapiens – the first "man" - the first Adam
R: (1) If everything is flawed, with negative entropy, than I have an excuse for my sinning before GOD. D: Too bad you deny the spirit Too bad that you see this world and only flawed R: you didn't answer my question Dave. Please elaborate. 1- I do not see this world as totally flawed – there is a lot of tov all around 2- spirit = yester tov (personal gnosis of God) This world does not rule my soul – I get a CHOICE
R: Only after my mortal death, does my spirit get the fullest release from a flawed body, to serve GOD perfectly. D: "NO WAY! – the only way we can complete our mission is to be here This is our service to the Lord – to complete our mission in this world R: OK, so explain what I said was wrong and why it is wrong. Question – what can man do for God in heaven? How can man serve God in heaven? Especially you – you have no heaven – you only have the grave – how can you serve the Lord in the grave? Answer – Jer 1:5 – is our assignment from God – our mission – our purpose We can only do Jer 1:5 here in this world
Question – if being in heaven is the end goal – what is wrong with suicide? Answer – because we can only serve God here
R: (2) If everything is flawed, nothing is perfect, therefore my GOD I worship is flawed too? D: "THIS IS THE EXACT LEGECY OF ROMAN CHRISTENDOM and its FEEL GOOD theology IF GOD = LOVE, MERCY, Compassion and If everything is flawed, nothing is perfect, therefore NO GOD – or a weak God – or a God that does not care R: You didn't answer my query Dave....
You are correct – if God is weak and powerless to fix this world we live it – why bother following a weak God. Gnostic reply – This world is not totally flawed – there is a lot of tov everywhere you look Once you are in touch with the spirit – everything looks tov – creation is beautiful And because we are endowed with yester tov soul – we gnosis just how amazing beautiful God truly is
R: "If GOD kills humans and love humans, how is this a GOD I aspire to? D: "Evidently – you miss the lesson of the ahl – the God of Israel = The One True God! R: Not a powerful answer Dave. Same reason I couldn't be a Muslim. They worship Allah who kills people. Not a Father of love.
Absolutely – Robert – not the God of LOVE as you present it You God of love only is lopsided – only tells ½ the story If you deny that God kills anyone – then you do not know your ahl The entire saga of Israel is the battel between them and their enemies Whenever Israel walks with God – their enemies fall- by the hand of God Joshua walked up to the walls of Jericho and the walls fell – by the hand of God In the end – Armageddon – is the entire world against Israel – and they will fail – by the hand of God
Each and every time – it is to prove – The God if Israel is the One True God
R: "There is nothing uptopian about GOD, if God deals with negative entrophy. D: "Currently - God’s utopia is in heaven – not here in 3D physical earth R :Utopia is not just a place, Utopia is also a Being, GOD. You mis-driected my question. A utopian allpowerful allknowing GOD is NOT going to play around with negative entrophy.
OK – and you preach God’s utopia was shattered by cherub chata and man God dealing with neg-entropy And this dealing = here on the Contest battel ground
D: "You argue in circles – against yourself Your argument here is that God could not make a perfect world God tried to make a perfect world – but your satan change it all R: Dave you do not see what SIN is. SIN is a flawed function opposing GOD.
My argument is GOD did create a perfect world, but SIN spoiled it. Your argument = God created this world with no ra – then created man with no yester ra – and whn man sinned – the chemistry of the entire planet changed – the construct of the heavens changed – and all biological DNA was rewritten
Gnostic view = God created an amazing world complete with tov and ra in a balance so complex that it has taken real science all this time to finally see the complexity – and as man looks at God’s creation he has only one conclusion to make – ‘Intelligent Design’
Gnostic view / Jewish view / and most Christians – man’s sin affected man Adam's sin wrought death upon all humans. (NOT Satan, OK, are we clear on this?) Adam’s sin affected all men – agreed – not ants – not fish – not the ground
Personally I can't stand you using Satan all the time, forget Him, I don't care to know. If you don't see angels with free will, that your concern, I will try other means to get you to see truth.... It will be interesting to see you write sometime without supporting your cherub chata god
I noticed you have no provision for original sin, the first time Adam sinned. Why is that? I suppose the original ‘choice’ in error was the First Archon in Gen 1:2 – there were consequences The archon were ejected from heaven to earth The first recorded sin of Man – was Eve – and there were consequences
Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life. Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.” Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly increase your pain from conception to labor. In pain will you give birth to children. Your desire will be toward your husband, yet he must rule over you.” Gen 3:17 Then to the man He said, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate of the tree which I commanded you, saying, ‘You must not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground because of you—with pain will you eat of it all the days of your life. Gen 3:18 (TLV) Thorns and thistles will sprout for you. You will eat the plants of the field, Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow will you eat food, until you return to the ground, since from it were you taken. For you are dust, and to dust will you return.”
The consequences = a hard life here on earth And the loss of the ability to see into the heavens
The First Book of Adam and Eve 8:1THEN Adam wept and said, "O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us."
8:2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish."
R posts: Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: R your changing themes Dave, Bible texts are written for a reason. Death is death. Stop playing word games. Adam's sin wrought death upon all things, even the entire universe, everything began to decay. By one man sin entered the world – sure And death by sin – sure (man is the one that sinned – and man is the one that dies) So death passes upon all men (does not say all biology everywhere – just man)
God is NOT going to make different systems of living for different creatures. Adam was prince over creation, in charge of Creation's destiny, and Adam sinned. Really – we all live like fish – or asexual single celled organism – or a macro growths like Aspen Trees or Mushrooms
People come to Colorado and see a hill side covered with individual Aspen Trees Sorry there is only one large underground growth – with many trees sticking above the surface
Why does our DNA lose information? Can your Gnostic writings answer this? YES! – we live in a 3D corporal world – we are biology in a sea of chemistry and physics If Eve would not have sinned – then man would not have died But she did – so we do
D: "Which view is yours? You satan changed everything so that nothing of God’s creation remains Or your satan changed nothing
Dave, SIN changed everything, Adam's SIN in particular for our world. Satan may have added some things, but all things are carefully controlled by GOD.
OK – so now Adam changed the world so much that we can no longer see God’s creation through a telescope or a microscope – nothing of God creation remains – unobservable by science
Then teach me why you are not denying Psa 19 or Rom 1 Scripture says man can see God’s creation – it has always been son But you say – Adam changed everything so much that nothing remains Who is correct – you or scripture?
Gnostic writings speak nothing of Adam's SIN affecting our perfect world making it a fallen world. You read 1/3 of one text – and you know what is in all the literature You do not even have a good overview of the OT
Gnostic writings speak of a flawed world designed that way from the beginning by GOD. Gnostics say God made an amazing creation complete with tov and ra When the First Archon chata – he and his kind were cast into creation Now we have a beautiful creation – with archons living in it Then came man – into an amazing creation complete with tov and ra and archon Man is special – man was given a chance at immortality But man failed the test – blind obedience without knowledge didn’t work
You quote: "And nothing came into being without his wish. Rob: so does GOD also create sin? can GOD also create disobedience? even arrogance?
We are back to God created the gun – God created the ra Does the gun kill – no – it is all to what man does with it God is LOVE remember – and perfect LOVE comes with risk All of the rest is up to man
You argued – it is not God’s fault if man used the gun to kill Is it God’s fault – that man use God Risk – our Free Will – to sin?
Your quote: "after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained. Rob: so does GOD also create sin? can GOD also create disobedience? even arrogance? How you reach your conclusion from this passage is amazing – perplexing – troubling
Remember – in heaven (Gen 1:2) Choshek happened Gen 3 – Eve happened As in heaven – so one earth There is nothing new under the sun – everything that has happened has happened before
D: "You amaze me – your satan takes over all of God’s creation R No Dave, my opposing creature does not take over anything, only bring SIN into God's world, and GOD deals with SIN, not Satan. Your Gnostic writings speak about "This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother." something totally foreign in my thinking. totally weird to me. Only your archons even change the creation of man, in my theology archons have nothing to do with creating man, ever. Stop turning the queries around.
God made everything perfect – then satan / or Adam – caused everything to be flawed (your words) So – if nothing changed – why isn’t your world still the tov of Gen 1:31
D: "you quote me "Such a world cannot be examined by Science even, because such a world doesn't exist anymore. " to mock me. Science cannot test a perfect world if its fallen. only looking at things based on assumptions.
Then please explain to me what Psa 19:1 and Rom 1:1-20 mean If you are correct – scripture is wrong
D: "YOU – take cherub chata – and build an entire doctrine around two words R these two Hebrew words, only explain WHO sinned first. Other than that, nothing is built around them. Sorry Robert – you have an entire array of angels that opposed God 91/3rd) of all God’s angels They oppose God all the time everywhere Except in the 49+23 verses that satan is used in the ahl – where satan obeys God everytime
D: "The Gospel of Philip - The Nag Hammadi Library The Holy Spirit shepherds everyone and rules all the powers, the "tame" ones and the "wild" ones, as well as those which are unique. R so are you saying the HS shepherds sinners who sin? Explain please. sub-atomicly the HS matrix /ether/ sustainer - sustain the ALL
R: "Explain how angels are creators? Scripture says angels cannot pro-create? D Again archons are not angels – Archon are made with some matter – angels are not All things made with matter - procreate
R wow, I didn't know this? Archons are not angels? What are they then? A Hebrew word please? And an OT text. DUH - I have been telling you this for over a year – archon are not angels – they are a separate creation – made of a different substrate – This is not new information – it has always been this way
Psa 106:37 (TLV) They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons. (H7700)
Deu 32:17 (TLV) They sacrifice to demons (H7700)—no god! Gods they have not known—New ones—from the vicinity they came; Not feared them have your fathers!
H7700 – שֵׁד - shêd – shade (FYI in Japan – demons are still called shades)
Lev 17:7 (TLV) They are no longer to offer their sacrifices to the goat-demons (H8163) after which they play the prostitute. This will be a statute forever to them throughout their generations.
2Ch 11:15 (KJV) And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils (H8162), and for the calves which he had made.
H8163 - שָׂעִר שָׂעִיר - From H8175; shaggy; as noun, a he goat; by analogy a faun: - devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr. (A Chimera)
Don’t forget Lilith – Isa 4:14 Don’t forget the Queen of Heaven – (Jer 7:18, 44:17-25) Don’t forget – 33 “other Gods’ Adrammelech (2 Kings 17:7-37; 19:12-37) Anammelech (2 Kings 17:7-37) Ashima (2 Kings 17:30) Ashtoreth (Judges 10:6-16; 1 Samuel 7:3-4, 12:10, 31:10; 1 Kings 11:2-33) Astarte, a.k.a. Ishtar, I Kings 11:5. Baal (Numbers 25:3; Judges 10:6-32; 1 Samuel 7:3-4, 12:10; I Kings 16:31-32, 18:18-40; II Kings 10:18-28; II Kings 11:18; Jeremiah 19:4-13, 23:13-27, 32:29-35) Baalberith, a.k.a. Baal (Judges 8:27-33; 9:4-46) Baalim, aka Baal (Judges 2:3-19, 3:6-7; I Kings 18:18-40; II Chronicles 17:3-6, 24:7-18, 33:3-19, 34:3-25; Hosea 2:8-17, 11:2) Baalpeor, a.k.a. Baal (Numbers 25:1-5: Deuteronomy 4:3-28; Psalms 106:28-39; Hosea 9:10) Bel (Jeremiah 51:44) Chemosh (Numbers 21:29; Judges 11:24; 1 Kings 11:2-33; II Kings 3:5, 23:4-20; Jeremiah 48:7-46) Chemosh Judges 11:24 (2 Kings 23). Dagon (Judges 16:23; 1 Samuel 5:2-7) Kaiwan or Kiyyun (Amos 5:26) Molech (Leviticus 20:2-3; I Kings 11:2-33; II Kings 23:4-20; 2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2–6, 32:35) Nebo (Isaiah 46:1) Nehushtan (Numbers 21:4-9; 2 Kings 18:4) Nibhaz (2 Kings 17:31) Nisroch (2 Kings 19:12-37; Isaiah 37:12-38) Rimmon (2 Kings 5:17-18;) Sakkuth or Sikkuth (Amos 5:26) Succoth-benoth (2 Kings 17:7-37; 2 Kings 18:11) Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14-15). Tartak (2 Kings 17:31)
So what are archons than? The Archon are a different race / group / species of heavenly (elohiym) beings They are not angels – they were created differently – from a different substrate They are heavenly being – that were cast out of heaven into creation (earth) and now Physical creation is their home – their domain They are also the bane elohiym that fathered the Nephilim After the flood 10% of them remain = Rephiem and the evil spirits They can be evil spirits in the earth – on the earth They can be still here by the DNA imprint of the Rephiem (Judges 2:4) They can still be here from – off world = alien / UFO
And none of this has anything to do with satan – or Ezk 28 Satan is a verb – any being – angel / archon / or man can be the satan God was satan to Balaam Peter was satan to Jesus Satan is a function – not a person
I used this example before and you hated it – but it does convey what I mean God made the angels – and they are as angels are – praise and serve And yes – sometimes that service involves – being a satan Any being chosen by God to do that function is a satan
Also created were the archon – they are different – not quite right – retarded – birth defect They are not angels – they are archon – and they are (YESTER RA) personified – they are focused only on SELF – so they were ejected from heaven – to visible creation – physical reality This is their land – their home – and they were here first
God send man into their world – man comes from God into this physical world Why – because God is a delegator E = mc2 – God never has to leave his throne – He made beings in the realm of (mc2) The HS has its job – Christ has His job - He made the angels to serve – Michael has a specific job – so does Gab-briel (you do realize I call her female) – Raphael has his job – Uriel has his job
The archon have a job
and Man has a job Here is Dave’s’ simple version of our job From God we come – into this world – to remember and witness to all the nations – this is our job To reveal God’s Glory here in this world for all the nations to see – this is our job This is the meaning of life – this is the answer to = ‘why am I here?’
We come into – and I love this song lyric from the TV show Monk – “it is a jungle out there”
Out into the wolves like sheep he sends us (Mat 10) To do what? Witness to the world – reveal God’s Glory
We come from God – into a jungle – filled with nature and archon And the archon are ‘self’ driven creatures – like BABOONS These baboons have no sense of morality – no dignity – no conscious – they get into everything and bother everyone – they mess up the neighborhood –
If you were locked in a cage with baboons – would they rule you? – no way Would they influence you? – Hell yes! – they would make me angry – irritate me till I want to strangle them
The archon are here first – they are driven by self – they are baboons in my way And as long as focused on them – or their influence – I am not focused on God = sin / diversion / deception
Archon – are separate being from me just like Baboons Archon do not rule me – they just influence me – talk – talk – talk This is exactly what the serpent did to Eve – talk – talk - talk
This is only 1 phase of the contest – archon Another reality = this world of physicality – this “flawed” world as you want to say I admit it - just like Paul – I have vices – I get mad – I am not perfect - I am animal I do NOT have to apologies for being an animal – God knows exactly who we are
I am manic – there are times in my life when I am wrong in public – or to another What is my sin? Did I sin because I was mad or loud – even angry – Jesus turned over the money changers tables? No my sin = I was not a good witness for the Lord Hello – I AM A CHRISTIAN – but I am also a complete ass hole at times (someone else view) If I am just an ass – who cares But if I say I’m Christian – my witness is on 24/7 – the world is watching me WATCHING MY WITNESS – watching how well I am doing my mission / my assignment / my commission
Eze 1:19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Sounds like a "car" whatever that word means, to me? I am afraid to discuss Ezk 1 with you But what I will say here – is what I say to all the UFO nuts that I encounter This is not a UFO – the wheels do not carry the angel The angels move under their own power and the wheels follow them
D: "Time is not linear God’s day and man’s day are never the same Day 6 could have taken millions of man years let alone man days God looks from another frame of reference, hence His time is different. On earth our time is linear, since we have our own reference. Don't you understand relativity?
Then I say – Genesis was written from God’s perspective Man’s perspective – with the application of Rom 1:19-20 and Pas 19:1-2 – took more than 6 24hr man days
Ponder this Earth and its rotation didn’t happen till the 3rd day The sun and moon was not created until the 4th day
Question #1 how can earth – its rotation – the sun and moon be used to calculate days 1 and 2? Question #2 why is holding that view in conflict with every know science since history was written Question #3 isn’t it even a little curious that by changing your perspective from man 24hr days to God days of (unknown measure) allows all of the best science to fall into place
Question #4 fossil record- many species – that seem to represent different time periods Let’s say – just an example – dinos If there were millions of man years of dinos growing ever larger Is a T rex attacking a smaller dino and ripping it apart for lunch IS NO DIFFERENT that one single cell organism swallowing another – either way – one is lunch for the other If there were millions of man years of dinos growing ever larger A Gnostic would look at this and see the sum of all chaos coming about – until it became so bad that God ended it
One dino ripping another is both tov and ra in a balance Life comes from death (Christ)
Then along comes Homoids – as many as 8 different species And Homo sapiens (Adam and Eve) came last – and we are the only hominid specie to survive the flood
Adam and Eve (Gen 2:7) are special – they are spirit and animal – both yester tov and ra – in one package – this is why only man has the ability to choose – sin or chata
Eve chose chata – and She and all her children (mankind of homo sapiens) became mortal
My question finally – how does this offend scripture – or God? Why is the revelation – Intelligent Design – offensive or blasphemous?
Before the flood There were dinos – Nephilim – bane elohiym – trolls – troglodytes – chimeras – and the lineage of Adam All here – co-existing But man – us – being last
Ponder this Holding to a 6 24hr man day for creation is in denial of everything Psa 19:1-2 or Rom 1:19-20 tells us GOD SAYS – here I am – I am visible in creation – everywhere you care to look = GOD
I need to say this – Roman Edit and Cultural Bias – is not theology Conflict Thesis – is a term used in a Book by two Medical Doctors of 1850 America (don’t have the name at hand – poor memory – ask and I’ll look it up) They review the history of the church and it’s anti-science ‘mandate of ignorance” They were writing a history of how the church held medicine back for so long because the church prevented autopsies – but used many examples of anti-science moves Grodno Bruno – burnt at the stake in 1600 because he said the stars might be suns with planets Galileo – held under house arrest until he died Etc, etc, etc
From this book – the science vrs church propaganda was invented
The church – is not led by God – but by man and overreacted – by digging to their heels as anti-science And – the church choose not to even educated itself to stay current with the average 8th grade science teacher
Good move? Or by design? – scripture says In the end of days – knowledge will increase In the end days – we will zip around at our leasure And in the end of times – many will fall away
Question - Why do they fall away Answer – public education – Darwin 1850 – Conflict thesis (circa 1850) – Scopes Monkey Trial 1925
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Post by Dave on Oct 19, 2020 21:48:08 GMT -5
Jews God made everything God made angels Satan is an angel in service of the Lord
But also – Jews have – Lilith and the shedim King Solomon wrote several books about them
Christian SDA as you present it God made angels Satan an angel that decided to hate God and rose up in opposition 1/3rd of all the angels decide to support satan instead of God
But also – they have the Beast, the devil, and false prophets – but make no effort to identify them there are demons without any creation story
Islam Allah made everything Made angels of light Made Jinn of fire and Iblis is the chief Jinn (the devil)
Gnostic God made everything God made angels Satan is an angel in service of the Lord
The Chief Archon and the archon = The Beast, the devil, = the Jinn = the evil spirits = the shedim
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2020 12:07:16 GMT -5
Then please explain to me what Psa 19:1 and Rom 1:1-20 mean If you are correct – scripture is wrongD: "Time is not linear God’s day and man’s day are never the same Day 6 could have taken millions of man years let alone man days God looks from another frame of reference, hence His time is different. On earth our time is linear, since we have our own reference. Don't you understand relativity? Then I say – Genesis was written from God’s perspectiveMan’s perspective – with the application of Rom 1:19-20 and Pas 19:1-2 – took more than 6 24hr man days Time is not linear between me in Colorado and the satellites above my head Time is not linear in two airplanes moving in opposite directions We do not have to go to a different galaxy to experience non-linear time This is measurable - observable - right here Right now in the field of quantum physics there seems to be a problem The very act of measuring an objects changed that object Why? - because at the moment of measurement - the perspective of the view changes The measured object is trapped in our time as we measure it Therefore - by measuring it - we alter it Then please explain to me what Psa 19:1 and Rom 1:1-20 mean If you are correct – scripture is wrongThen I say – Genesis was written from God’s perspectiveMan’s perspective – with the application of Rom 1:19-20 and Pas 19:1-2 – took more than 6 24hr man days #1 premise - God made creation deliberately so that when man looks at creation he finds God no matter where he looks. #2 premise - The Torah was written specifically to man - about/for man What is the message of the Torah to man 1- There is only One True Creator - the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac 2- The Jews were required to be separate and witness to the whole world Jer 1:5 their commission from God How were the Jews to witness - to have outreach programs and missionaries - NO The Jews were told to dance a dance for the whole world to witness Rosh Hashanah - Yom Kippor - Sukkot-Purim - Peasch- Pentecost/the Harvest From the beginning - I need to pause and consider - God tabernacle with man - God is salvation - Passover for sin - followed by Pentecost - the rebirth God made nature - so that man could see God in it What is the lesson of nature - birth-growth-maturity- death and rebirth Doesn’t matter if science looks at the microscopic or the macroscopic The lesson of nature - birth-growth-maturity- death and rebirth Even if you look at geology - birth- growth/maturity/aging-death and rebirth Look through a telescope - e lesson of nature - birth-growth-maturity- death and rebirth Jesus came - grew and matured - died and RETURNED This is the lesson of science from god we came - we grow and mature here - we die a mortal death, but it is just the step before REBIRTH into the next reality we call heaven
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 13:51:09 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
The way you explain your Gnostic writings, does make sense, and it sounds nice. I thought I would be honest to say this. However it doesn't mean I would follow it, but the theory of faith sounds sort of logical, fits some aspects of theology. I am finding it harder to poke holes in it. Some things I need help with. You say:-
R: Do you have anything coming from Adam's original and first SIN? D: Absolutely – man lost his immortality
What does lose immortality mean? I thought only GOD is immortal?
D: "Sinning flaws you and you only – your sin = your sin If I sin – the birds are unaffected – the mountains do not care
R I see. So if sinning only affects me, why did Adam's first sin, affect me?
emotional remark : got ya there LOL
( Aside: Some Christians including my own SDA say Man is born sinful. Some including SDA say man is not born sinful. I do not see any sinful trait inherited by Adam's sin, only RA, the fruit of His Sinning, is inherited. So in a sense we are born in a fallen world. However I do not see being born in a fallen world as being a sin we are held guilty for.
Gnostic writings say RA is a natural design from GOD, nothing to do with sinning at all. That is your view. I do not see this idea. This post speaks about one aspect of RA, ie death. And the Biblical support of RA/Death, came only from SIN. ) D: " You are correct – if God is weak and powerless to fix this world we live it – why bother following a weak God. Gnostic reply – This world is not totally flawed – there is a lot of tov everywhere you look Once you are in touch with the spirit – everything looks tov – creation is beautiful And because we are endowed with yester tov soul – we gnosis just how amazing beautiful God truly is
R" Hmm? Why not have a perfectly powerful GOD, who controls carefully all the sinning in it, against His absolute will, but creates ra because He still loves us while we are sinners, Jesus died for us. That's the amazing tov in our world, "everything looks tov – creation is beautiful" yes, but more than, GOD is willing to rescue us from a fallen world.
D: "Absolutely – Robert – not the God of LOVE as you present it You God of love only is lopsided – only tells ½ the story If you deny that God kills anyone – then you do not know your ahl The entire saga of Israel is the battle between them and their enemies Whenever Israel walks with God – their enemies fall- by the hand of God
R: Hmm? What is an enemy to GOD? It can't be humans. Scripture say Jesus died while humans were sinning.
The real enemy must be SIN itself.
God loves the sinner, but hates SIN. Have you heard of this idea before? So when is a person's probation of living ended? God cannot wound anyone. That means remove any chance of them choosing salvation. (Much worse a sin, than just killing a person.)
Obviously the SIN takes over and rules over you, searing your conscience, removing your will to choose, so eventually you cannot choose salvation any more; and so you have died already whilst alive in your sinning. You would wound others if allowed to live on, so GOD removes your influence. It's called a strange act in KJV for a reason. Justice and mercy together with grace and sternness.
(aside. I have shown you already that SIN, ie sin-offering, can and does RULE over you as a ruler. So in a sense SIN is a big deal for humans and for GOD to deal with.)
D: "Your argument = God created this world with no ra – then created man with no yester ra – and when man sinned – the chemistry of the entire planet changed – the construct of the heavens changed – and all biological DNA was rewritten
R: "the chemistry of the entire planet changed " yes gradually via entropy that came in. "the construct of the heavens changed" yes gradually, like a old tent wearing out over time, via entropy that came in.
"and all biological DNA was rewritten" not rewritten, but affected by mutations, errors, etc; via entropy that came in..
For example, it took 930 years of errors in the DNA before Adam died, his DNA changed slowly from the day he sinned, until he eventually died on mass, but daily Adam was dying death (as God said He would) (I see RA as a fruit of sin, the consequences of missing GOD).
It took 1400 years for physical cycles to decay and cause rain, volcanoes and earthquakes, and four seasons of weather rather than just one season.
Yet it took only milliseconds, perhaps nanoseconds to make Granite rocks with plutonium haloes in them. The rocks were called into existence.
My science prediction, a science idea must have predictions. In the Edenic world C 14 radioactive would not have existed, this is a ra. Lets assume C14 did not exist until 1400 years later, and the rocks, coal and fossils only had some little amounts of C14 in them, relative to the normal C12. What would this do to Carbon 14 dating systems? Science assumes the amount of C14 to C12 remains stable in the past.
Another prediction, if RA is a the results of sinning, all radiation is produced because the atoms themselves also wear out and decay because of sin, hence this physical chemistry should be irrational, unpredictable and totally unreliable as a tool over time. Such decay would at best only seem to follow physical laws.
The same idea would also be true for electrical resistance. Such RA should be unpredictable, illogical and totally in inconsistent at following logical physical laws. Maybe I am stretching this too far, I am thinking why can't GOD, who engineers RA, the fruit of sin, also physically and logically control the decaying process of creation, which is essentially a power that is coming from Himself? This would imply sin can be logical and predictable? (emotional remark) I will stop. My head hurts. LOL
Here is a picture summary of your view and my view, we are different:
However you add when Adam sinned, a different death came in affecting our immortality...???I will leave you to explain how death has two completely different applications?
D: "It will be interesting to see you write sometime without supporting your cherub chata god R I smiled. Hydroplate theory maybe?
D: "So death passes upon all men (does not say all biology everywhere – just man) R I see.
Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
This verse suggests to me, that the creatures are subject to bondage and groans, just as man does. Therefore death came upon all animals because of Adam's Sin.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
And this verse tells you every animal only ate herbs, they were all vegetarian.
D: "Gnostics say God made an amazing creation complete with tov and ra When the First Archon chata – he and his kind were cast into creation Now we have a beautiful creation – with archons living in it Then came man – into an amazing creation complete with tov and ra and archon Man is special – man was given a chance at immortality But man failed the test – blind obedience without knowledge didn’t work
We are back to God created the gun – God created the ra Does the gun kill – no – it is all to what man does with it God is LOVE remember – and perfect LOVE comes with risk All of the rest is up to man
R: nice statements Dave
D Then please explain to me what Psa 19:1 and Rom 1:1-20 mean R I see tov in God's creation, even though RA affects His creation. When I see flaws in our world, it reminds me of the sin problem.
When you see flaws in your world, it reminds you GOD designed it that way.
Our thinking is different Dave.
D: "sub-atomicly the HS matrix /ether/ sustainer - sustain the ALL R Strangely I see that too
Dave introduces a new idea:
Ps 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils <shad>, "shad" 7700, breast/demon. (also spelt "shed")
Interesting. (Pity this Hebrew word is only used twice?)
Was the serpent speaking to Eve an archon (Shad)?
So Dave why do we have angels, which in our theology we call Satan? Why does GOD have angels doing bad jobs such as recording man's sins? What was JOB for?
I don't see how the angels fit, when you have archons testing man to sin? Why do you have both?
D: "Satan is an angel in service of the Lord R What services does Satan do, for man?
Why do you have two sources of testing man, "bad angels" and "archons"?
Why do you call "testing man" a service that is functional? What's functional about it?
Do you have a NT reference to archons as demons, that does not link them to angels?
Jeff Benner
Grk#:1228 / dee-ab-ol-os (adj): Devil Freq:&38 Heb#:7854 סטן / sa-tan (noun): Opponent—One who is on the opposing side of an action or thought; an adversary.
Jeff translates Satan noun, as Greek word "devil", strange?
The Greek word "satanas" is the Same spelling as the Hebrew word "satan", So someting is wrong Jeff?
Why do you have two different Greek words focusing on One Hebrew word?
I suspect "shad" (used twice in OT) is the Greek word "disbolos"?
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Yet here "shad" is also linked as the same name as "Satan".
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Dave you have a problem, "devil (shad) , Satan, and angel" are all the same creature kind.
Please explain to me how you see two different kinds of creatures: (1) Shad (2) Cherub Explain to me how shad (shed) is different in the NT, and NOT of angelic origin?
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D :"Time is not linear between me in Colorado and the satellites above my head Time is not linear in two airplanes moving in opposite directions
R I was talk Dave, that any frame of reference below 1/2 speed of light, time is linear? Newton laws work when motion is less than 1/2 the speed of light.
SO your statements are not correct as I understand relative speeds of motion, hence time.
D: "Right now in the field of quantum physics there seems to be a problem The very act of measuring an objects changed that object Why? - because at the moment of measurement - the perspective of the view changes
R Maybe because sub particles travel faster than 1/2 the speed of light, hence time is different now.
You speak of the light on day one (from GOD Himself), was not the earth turning into His light and away from HIS light, and isn't Scripture reference GOD as a simile of the Sun?
SO I see yom as a specific stable unit of time.
Not necessary to allow matter (sun) to define yom time, God can reference Yom time, by "functioning as a Sun".
Shalom
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2020 4:41:03 GMT -5
I have been thinking of your theory Dave:
Chata does not really mean "sin", but a broader term "missing".
I told you about the perfect car, if I could build it, no rust, last forever. I told you about amorphous iron and crystalline iron. Crystalline iron is more stable, does not rust, but mankind cannot manufacture this as yet.
So if I build a car that rusts, it is "missing" perfection. Rust is by definition the missing element of perfect function.
If GOD creates anything function, but also designs things dysfunctional, these are by definition, missing perfection, hence a "sin" to be missing total perfection.
So by declaring RA as a natural missing element, you are making the word meaning lose it's meaning.
You cannot have a Being designing things functional and things dysfunctional, this by definition is "missing" something.
Take for example disorder, a natural RA element. What is disorder? Matter that disobeys GOD. Take for example friction, a natural RA element. Walking requires matter to push off from matter, this friction force allows the matter to hold unto the other matter during a walking step.
But in the torah, heavenly Beings move in living creatures, not pushing off matter, but flying in space, so friction is not required.
Take for example heat losses. What is a heat loss? A form of energy that is a character of GOD that is not fully obeying God's rules of character. I find it hard to describe such things, so I will stop.
My point is, natural RA is by definition "missing" GOD, and if God was fully able to create Himself perfectly in all things, RA would not exist. However "missing" causes much a headache to GOD, since sinning creatures demand this strange world for GOD to create for them.
Shalom
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