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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2020 10:00:26 GMT -5
scholarsgateway.com/parseGen 26:11 יוּמָת Parts of Speech: Verb Hophal Imperfect 3rd Mas. Sing. Root: מות Strong's Number: H4191 Infinitive Definition: 1. to die, kill, have one executed Exo 19:12 יומת׃ Parts of Speech: Verb Hophal Imperfect 3 rd Mas. Sing. Root: מות Strong's Number: H4191 Infinitive Definition: 1. to die, kill, have one executed Gen 2:17 תמות׃ Parts of Speech: Verb Qal Imperfect 2 nd Mas. Sing. Root: מות Strong's Number: H4191 Infinitive Definition: 1. to die, kill, have one executed Answer to your question
Gen 26:11 and Exo 19:12 are both - Verb Hophal Imperfect 3 rd Mas. Sing. The Hophal stem is the passive form of the Hiphil stem formation in Biblical Hebrew. While Gen 2:17 תמות׃ is a - Verb Qal Imperfect 2 nd Mas. Sing. Sorry Robert – your answer lies with GRAMMARPlease visit this pagewww.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Ten/Qal_Imperfect/qal_imperfect.htmlIt won’t let me copy and paste Scroll down to Notes #6 Qal Imperfect is more complex than just English future tense
Gen 2:17 מות תמות מות Parts of Speech: Verb Qal Infinitive AbsoluteRoot: מות Strong's Number: H4191 Infinitive Definition: 1. to die, kill, have one executed Gen 2:17 = Verb Qal Infinitive Absolute + Verb Qal Imperfect 2 nd Mas. Sing. The infinitive absolute is an extremely flexible non-finite verbal form and can function as an adverb, a finite verb, a verbal complement, or a noun. Its most common use is to express intensity or certainty of verbal action. So we have an extremely flexible non-finite verb + more complex than just English future tensenon-finite death + future death If you enter death (a non-finite thing) + you will die (future) If you die (a non-finite thing) + you will die (future) God told Adam - If you die (a non-finite thing) + you will die (future) This is absolutely correct and true for all who do not repent The consequences of sin = death - both mortal and spiritual The serpent told Eve – not This is also absolutely correct and true for all who do repent Mortal death is not a finite thing for the spirit – it is the future death of spirit that will be finite
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2020 15:54:27 GMT -5
I read the page OK, thanks for this. Seems like reading Hebrew is complex. Translation is not a simple as you want to make itI do not understand what was said on those pages about the Hebrew But I do understand it in the Greek – extremely complex – every word has at least 8 endings Nom – singulat and Plural Genative singular and plural Dative singular and plural Accusitive singular and plural Ever regular verb has 36 forms and irregular verbs you just have to memorize And all of it dictated by spelling Before I met you Robert – I have never encountered vegetarian sharks before(Wiki) For many Christian denominations, the doctrine of the fall is closely related to that of original sin. They believe that the fall brought sin into the world, corrupting the entire natural world, including human nature, causing all humans to be born into original sin, a state from which they cannot attain eternal life without the grace of God. corrupting the entire natural world – does not specify howThe Eastern Orthodox Church accepts the concept of the fall but rejects the idea that the guilt of original sin is passed down through generations, based in part on the passage Ezekiel 18:20 that says a son is not guilty of the sins of his father. The Gnostic solution – man is mortal – flesh – this is hereditaryCalvinist Protestants believe that Jesus gave his life as a sacrifice for the elect, so they may be redeemed from their sin. If you read Calvin – his elect = the First Fruits = Gnostic Spiritual Christians / Born AgainJudaism does not have a concept of "the fall" or "original sin" Wiki is a Judeo-Christian web-site (Roman Christendom bias) Jews see the wrong choice as the beginning of Gen 3:15 and they have been contestants in a global Contestwww.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm(Catholic) Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam. (1)The sin of Adam has injured the human race at least in the sense that it has introduced death — "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men" so death passed upon all men" – not fish or trees(2) Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, "for as by the disobedience of one man many [i.e., all men] were made sinners" (Romans 5:19). all men were made sinners – not fish – not trees(3) Since Adam transmits death to his children by way of generation when he begets them mortal, it is by generation also that he transmits to them sin, YES! – man is mortal – just like all the other animalstransformedblog.westernseminary.edu/2012/04/16/what-did-god-do-after-adam-and-eve-sinned-a-childs-answer-reveals-a-big-problem/(Claims non-denominational – therefore very Presbyterian) One of the first consequences of sin is that Adam and Eve become aware of their nakedness in a new way. In Genesis 2 their nakedness proclaimed that they were innocent and unashamed, standing in complete openness before one another. But now shame, guilt, and alienation have replaced the intimacy that God originally intended for them. Knowledge = change from innocence to shame (the perspective of man)God cursed creation and in the process he changed how we experience it. Rather than ruling over creation and taking care of it to the glory of God, we now struggle against it, forcing from it what we need to exist. God’s curse on creation was not a punishement upon creation – but a change in how man experiences it / perceives it And now we (man) struggle against (creation – the archon’s domain) – Gen 3:15 forcing from it what we need to exist. - life is hardThe cursing of creation is God’s way of providing indications that things are not how they’re supposed to be, signs of a deeper problem Rom 1:19-20 – the story is there in our telescope or microscope – intelligent design that we may rediscover God’s hand in it allThe cursing of creation, then, was a judgment with a redemptive purpose. God doesn’t judge and punish because he thinks it’s fun. God wants us to recognize our brokenness and desperate need. The last thing he wants is to make us comfortable in our alienation and death Nature and the ra in it are there as an educational TOOL by God to teach manwww.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2020/the-relation-between-adam-s-sin-and-death(originally founded under Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church.) sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned—sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Man – man - manwww.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/topics?lang=eng(Mormon) Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world. Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. They and their children would experience sickness, pain, and physical death. Even the Mormon - say the result was that Adam became mortal and therefore their children were also born mortal Personally – I do not think most religions – Christian or otherwise – endorse vegetarian sharks Gnostic view - Eden Adam and Eve were not alone in the Australian Outback – or in the Wilds of the Mountains They were in a very DIFFERENT PLACE VIII:1 "And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked down-wards, and saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness." VIII:2 "And I saw the sweet-flowering trees and beheld her their fruits, which were sweet-smelling, and all foods born by them bubbling with fragrant exhalation." VIII:3 "And in the midst of the trees that of life, in that place whereon the Lord rest, when he goes up into paradise; and this tree is of ineffable goodness and fragrance, and adorned more than every existing thing; and on all sides it is in form gold-looking and vermillion and fire-like and covers all, and it has produced from all fruits." VIII:4 "Its root is in the garden at the earth's end." VIII:5 "And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility." VIII:9 "And there are three hundred angels very bright who keep the garden, and with incessant sweet singing and never-silent voices serve the Lord throughout all the days and hours." VIII:10 "And I said: 'How very sweet is this place;' and those men said to me:" IX:1 "This place, O Enoch, is prepared for the righteous, who endure all manner of offence from those that exasperate their souls, who avert their eyes from iniquity, and make righteous judgment, and give bread to the hungering, and cover the naked with clothing, and raise up the fallen, and help injured orphans, and who walk without fault before the face of the Lord, and serve Him alone, and for them is prepared this place for eternal inheritance." My view – Gnostic view – with the addition of non-Torah text 1- Eden – was located in the third heaven which is Paradise and possibly the home dimension of the New Heavens and Earth FYI – this is also the target destination for righteous Muslims Jewish – Adan and Eve to a step down into the lower world = our 3D dimension 2- Eden was a Garden here on Earth at the mouth of the 4 rivers An OASIS on the planet – a safe haven from the archon And Adam and Eve were ejected from this OASIS to the rest of the archon land 3 – or your version where nothing ever happened in all of God’s creation until Adam sinned Then all of the animals – rocks – and trees were equally punished
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 5:00:01 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
We have discussed this theme some already. I will not continue.
You say the idea of "Vegetarian sharks is weird"?
Well when I read Mrs White see heaven on earth, the new Zion, and children pick flowers, that ever die? I was amazed. How can flowers removed from the plant, not ever die?
Some things we will never understand, Dave, how big God really is. I believe God can create a world perfectly, as He says, no ra, no friction, no losses of entropy... hard to imagine...
Everything is hard to imagine about God, why we love God, because God is bigger than us.
I pray we are held accountable for the faith we live up to, and God will accept your life as it seems best to you. We live in a Bible of pondering confusion. I hope we have dug out some truths together, and sharpened our swords of the Spirit. God bless your ministry with Him.
Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 5:07:55 GMT -5
Alright is the Gen 2:17 is so hard, and you do not accept other verses that also say "muwth muwth" though I admit different suffix used...
Does the Scripture allude to humans daily dying, of being killed daily? Is our flesh wearing out? Is the universe winding down? When did this all being?
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This verse suggests to me, when Adam sinned he died immediately, and later became subject to mortal death.
Doesn't this verse help understand Gen 2:17 ?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 1, 2020 11:34:39 GMT -5
Does the Scripture allude to humans daily dying, of being killed daily? YES Is the universe winding down? YES When did this all begin? Gen 1:2 – entropy is inherent to or a byproduct of neg-entropy (creation) And God said it was good
Is our flesh wearing out? YES When did this all begin? Gen 3:15 – when man became mortal
God created man in the image of the godhead –male and female God is eternal – our true form (SPIRIT) is also eternal
God is immortal – meaning God will never suffer a mortal death Adam and Eve were created immortal in the image of God Adam and Eve would have never suffered a mortal death if they would have obeyed
Other animals are not in the image of God – they are animals – they do not have immortal souls and they were always supposed to reproduce after their own kind
What happened when Adam and Eve “fell” – they became mortal just like all the other animals They were created special – different – immortal – they could see the music the angels were singing in heaven – they were connected to heaven – in communion But after they disobeyed – Adam and Eve became 100% totally mortal
Mortality means to be born through suffering
The Jew say – Psalms 23 is about birth – into the valley of the shadow of death I go But – I will fear no evil for God is with me WE are born with full awareness of the Lord – as we grow and mature as the animal we are – yester ra begins to cloud what we once knew – and we all live in self
Until – we choose the rise above self – to live through our yester tov But we are animal in a corporeal world and it is impossible for man to become totally aware – without the indwelling of the HS and the understanding it brings
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
And once Adam and Eve became mortal – so are all their offspring – just like all the other animals
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 14:14:52 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
You speak of two main things here "God is immortal – meaning God will never suffer a mortal death" and "And once Adam and Eve became mortal – so are all their offspring"
So before Adam sinned he was immortal, and after Adam sinned he became mortal.
You also quote Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
How is this speaking of the RA in the universe?
Are there any Hebrew words for "immortal and mortal" so we can study this term?
None that I see, except Greek.
The Hebrew use of RA, is always associated with sinning. DO you have any Hebrew words that suggest disorder came into our world without the concept of sin?
You did not like my definition of death? Dissolution.
Death seems to be the opposite of living? But living is a function of GOD. Can you have a function of GOD that causes GOD to become dysfunctional?
I would say yes. It's called separating the functional flow of power within the Godhead, when the Father and Mother separated themselves from their divine Son upon the Cross, leaving the powers of love interrupted. I would term this dysfunctional flow, the second death process. Where GOD's power no longer support you, and for creatures you would cease to exist.
I think the terms "immortality and mortality" are inventions of men, and not Hebrew terms at all.
However I will go through all the Greek contexts: Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
God does not like to be made into anything less than perfect, but you have made GOD create a flawed world, that is less that perfect? Isn't it?
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
This context suggest GOD is above matter, and hence does not wear out, Yet you have GOD creating matter than flows with RA.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
THis suggests to me that matter has no friction, no chaos anymore, yet you pose GOD created matter intentionally with such things,??
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen
This suggests to me, GOD is above matter, not wearing out, perfect in all ways, yet you have GOD creating a world that wears GOD out and makes GOD weary because the matter would drain his presence continually.
For example: Conductors without internal Resistance is possible, yet with GOD all matter without friction is also possible. But you have GOD creating a flawed world?
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Here nothing fades away.... that is what this Greek term suggests.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The words are eternal, not subject to wearing down. Perfect.
But you have God creating without right hand knowing the left hand?
1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
What is meekness? Some immortal power that flows into you... this power does not wear out...
Death is about separating relationship. Death is NOT about life or the opposite of life. Life only comes via relationship. Therefore Death is defined as relationship.
Therefore if relationship strains, death begins. hence Gen 2:17
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 1, 2020 16:57:51 GMT -5
So before Adam sinned he was immortal, and after Adam sinned he became mortal. I think the terms "immortality and mortality" are inventions of men, and not Hebrew terms at all. Does a virus go to heaven when it dies? Does a bacteria go to heaven when it dies? Does a single cell organism go to heaven when it dies? Does an ant – a fish – a cow – or a dog got to heaven when it dies The answer to all of this is NO – because they are all mortal creatures (meaning corporeal)
Why is man different? – because man is more than animal Man = (spirit +(animal))
You deny this – you deny the spirit - - so you only understand death of the flesh
All animals die – and their physical bodies decays into nothingness All men die (because all men are sinners – just like dam and Eve) and our animal bodies decay
However – spirit is not corporeal it is ethereal – we continue into heaven for judgment Spirit does not die – because it is not mortal (corporeal) - only the body dies Life lives
If you die in Christ – you are the First Fruits of the harvest If you do not – you await the First Resurrection
You deny the spirit – your only goal is the grave and the hope of the First Resurrection
You also quote Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
How is this speaking of the RA in the universe?
OH – now choshek is not (missing the light) - evil or ra – I say it is – or evidence of it The First Archon – was the first expression of self – where do we find the self-thing today – in creation where the First Archon and all the archon were ejected to in your war Nag Hammadi says there were hidden away in a cloudy of smoke and fire (choshek) And now creation is the home of the archon And creation is also the home of ra – volcanos – earthquakes – storms – and drout But ra in itself is not sin Volcanos and earthquakes are just nature in its constant yin and yang struggle of life and death
Are there any Hebrew words for "immortal and mortal" so we can study this term? Approximately 250 years before the birth of Jesus Christ – 70 Jweish scholars gathered together to answer this for us
Gen 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures! (ἑρπετὰ ψυχῶν ζωσῶν) Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (ψυχὴν ζῴων ἑρπετῶν,) Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (ἡ γῆ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν)
G5590 – ψυχή - psuchē - psychie (mind)
Creeping things with a mind - nephesh
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man ἄνθρωπον Gen 1:27 So God created man ἄνθρωπον Gen 2:7 And the LORD God … breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ἄνθρωπον - ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.
G444 - ἄνθρωπος - From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being:- man.
Because we are ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν Because we are living nephesh – we have a soul Because man is a human BEING
However I will go through all the Greek contexts:
Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
God does not like to be made into anything less than perfect, but you have made GOD create a flawed world, that is less that perfect? Isn't it?
All you see is the consequence of your satan – a flawed world I say God looked at and called it tov
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
This context suggest GOD is above matter, and hence does not wear out, Yet you have GOD creating matter than flows with RA. God is not matter – matter is the corruptible God is not matter – God is the incorruptible
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Yep! – the dead in the grave Christians – will be raise incorruptible at the First Resurrection
THis suggests to me that matter has no friction, no chaos anymore, yet you pose GOD created matter intentionally with such things,??
You just keep talking about matter and flesh
1Co 15:52 … incorruptible = and we shall be changed.
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Scripture is no longer speaking of 3D corporeal / physical flesh / biology
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen
Wait – why is God both eternal and immortal? Eternal = no beginning and no end Immortal = no mortal deah
This suggests to me, GOD is above matter, not wearing out, perfect in all ways, Correct - Agree yet you have GOD creating a world that wears out Correct – Agree entropy is inherent to creation / a by-product a world that wears out GOD out and makes GOD weary because the matter would drain his presence continually. You don’t think very highly of your God – weak and tired No one opposes my God – nothing is too hard for my God My God is absolute
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Here nothing fades away.... that is what this Greek term suggests. We are not in heaven – we are in a 3D physical universe
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 13:50:56 GMT -5
D: "However – spirit is not corporeal it is ethereal – we continue into heaven for judgment Spirit does not die – because it is not mortal (corporeal) - only the body dies Life lives
DO you have any evidence of this, I listened to the Rabbi too, but disagree? Texts for life lives after the body has died? Texts that our spirit is judged in heaven after the body died?
Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (KJV)
Breath here is ruwach, the spirit in our nephesh.
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
You have seem this text many times, but you ignore it's message.
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R: "How is Gen 1:2 speaking of the RA in the universe?
D OH – now choshek is not (missing the light) - evil or ra – I say it is – or evidence of it
Light banishes darkness Dave, it happens naturally because GOD is light, GOD is not darkness. SO there was darkness upon the earth and GOD worked around this darkness? What does this tell me? Sinning happened long before mankind was created. You acknowledge archons are being in darkness, but you say God intentionally created them? No. God would not intentionally create creatures of sinning. But you ignore texts which say angels sinned, thus made this darkness.
D: "And creation is also the home of ra – volcanos – earthquakes – storms – and drout But ra in itself is not sin
R I beg to differ, anything not perfect is a flaw of GOD, God only creates tov. You make GOD into something less almighty, and yet he calls this tov. God is almighty and He created only tov. Everything flawed only comes from sin, from missing God's perfect powers.
D: "I say God looked at and called it tov R You say God looked at His flawed creation and called it tov? That is a oxymoron Dave.
D: "God is not matter – matter is the corruptible God is not matter – God is the incorruptible
Why do you consider matter corruptible, if matter was created by an incorruptible GOD? Isn't God smart enough to create incorruptible matter?
God can create matter without friction losses, conductors that are perfect, metal crystals... Of course God can. But you say no God can't.
D: "You just keep talking about matter and flesh
R OH, OK where is the texts that speak of the spirit, after the body of flesh has died, than?
----------- R This suggests to me, GOD is above matter, not wearing out, perfect in all ways, D Correct - Agree R yet you have GOD creating a world that wears out D Correct – Agree entropy is inherent to creation / a by-product R your logic is weird. Disorder is not inherent to an orderly GOD.
God can speak to invidiual atoms stay there, make no dust, and so no dust will every exist. Rooms will never need cleaning, once ordered they remain ordered for eternity. Is this possible? Yes.
D: "No one opposes my God – nothing is too hard for my God My God is absolute
R than start thinking differently than, like I do.
Ro 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
God groaneth holding our bodies together, don't you understand? Friction causes groaning to God, because it is dysfunctional... Imagine bodies that never tire, never wear out, do not need error DNA checking? Eating food that makes no waste product, even the fibre is totally soluble. Flowers when picked do not expire, they continue living. God is absolute and far above anything you can imagine.
Shalom
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