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Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2020 0:47:42 GMT -5
Dave writes: "God has two natures to His personality - male and female YES! - There is only one God and a duality of expression. – YES!
For your statements to work, you do not have GOD as separate beings, only one of two expressions like sides of the same coin. I do use a coin as an example
You should have read my example Quarter = a 25 cent US coin – it is very real, but no one has ever seen it Sure we have people say – so lay one on the table – all you see is one side or the other Quarter is a concept – beyond our view – we can only see it as heads or tails Quarter = heads and tails E=mc2 God made man in is own image = male and female
Why does the GOD on earth, speak to this GOD in heaven as Holy Father, if according to you it can only be the Holy Spirit, a feminine expression of GOD? You have only two expressions, so who was GOD on earth in human form, praying to?
One God beyond our understanding and a duality of expression male and female Trinity = God – the male image of God – the female spirit of God
No one can see God – God is beyond our understanding
You have one being, with different expressions. I have three beings, You say my view is polytheism, but yours is not. How am I to respond to this?
You made no comments on my view, where GOD is a simile of family, as Eph 3:15, 16 shows. This comes with differences in loving. Two heavenly parents are one because the Hebrew marriage shows the two become unified as one.
Sure – we can make as many metaphors and similes that would fit Nice sermons all of them But if it leads you to the conclusion that there are three gods – but deny being a polytheist – then you are just conflicted
Ge 18:1 ¶ And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: For most Christians – each and every time we have an appearance of the Lord – it is the image of God we see = Christ
Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; How do you have two masculine expressions in differrent locations at the same time, I assume the feminine Shadday was on earth with the masculine on earth.
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, When the masculine and feminine come in Gen 1:2, the expression is grammar singular He, The feminine is ignored in community setting.
Yes – He said – let us – I agree
The Creator is the Father of all creation Father Creator = male and female Father Creator = male image (Christ) and female spirit 3 are 1
Just because the Creator is a duality of expression – does not negate the Creator’s existence
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 18:08:54 GMT -5
I asked you how does the masculine expression call the praying "holy father", who is this expression praying to?
Your answer is:
God is beyond our understanding
You don't have an answer. Clearly your view is wrong.
So let me ask you about true Hebrew divine marriages:
Is the wife allowed to create without the husband knowing and making input to the creating as well? Can the husband do things without the wife? Or the wife do things without the husband?
Notice the example when Abram sees YHWH and two angels on the road.
He does all the cooking of food by himself? According to you? Do we have here two people doing for the YHWH, or a single system doing for the YHWH, which fits best?
Pr 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Your Gnostic writing violate this don't they? The Holy Spirit allows the creation of archons to cause chaos.
Genesis 1:2 says both husband and wife are together during creation. Is this seen in Hebrew as they? no, when the divine Son creates, sing the words, is this seen as "they" ? No. The term is masculine single "He".
If the wife is considered independent as you say, her breasts would be written in the feminine case, but the breasts are written always in the masculine case. The wife's body is the same as the husband's body. This is what marriage is defined as in Hebrew, in an ideal case, before sin spoiled things.
After sin, man rules over the wife, sad, but there is a change now.
Would I consider a married family of humans as poly-being or mono-being? The Hebrew answers mono-being.
The Devil crafted the meaning of words, so "family" is seen as pagan concept, so people like Jews can reject "family" concepts of GOD. But such a picture exists in the OT if you go looking.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2020 20:58:12 GMT -5
I asked you how does the masculine expression call the praying "holy father", who is this expression praying to?
You don't have an answer. Clearly your view is wrong.AGAIN – THREE forms E = mc2I am says as a man in 3D reality I can see and measure / experience the m and c2 Also as a 3D man – I am equally unable to measure the E / experience the E Exo 33:17 Adonai answered Moses, “I will also do what you have said, for you have found favor in My sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Then he said, “Please, show me Your glory!” 19 So He said, “I will cause all My goodness to pass before you, and call out the Name of Adonai before you. I will be gracious toward whom I will be gracious, and I will show mercy on whom I will be merciful.” Exo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” No man can experience the E – we are of different substanceExo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. Exo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.” God said to Moses – you can see my Glory (Holy Spirit – c2) And Moses got to see God’s back – (Image – Christ – m) But no one can see the E
Dose this eliminate the E from the equation? NO! Notice the example when Abram sees YHWH and two angels on the road. He does all the cooking of food by himself? According to you? Gen 18:6 Sarah?Pr 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. Your Gnostic writing violate this don't they? The Holy Spirit allows the creation of archons to cause chaos. OH – so now the Holy Spirit is God’s wife – with wifely duties Not consistent with the Trinity
Would I consider a married family of humans as poly-being or mono-being? The Hebrew answers mono-being. The Creator is not married to the Holy Spirit – can we move on please
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 13:38:51 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Can we move on? Forget Scripture studies on elohiym? Why does GOD make Scripture the way it is? Only for man? Why did GOD make mankind into two bodies, that come together as one body? So this has nothing to do with a picture of elohiym? Can we move on please?
You show from Scripture, nobody can see the E directly, face to face. Correct.
Yes but you did not answer my question why did GOD in masculine expression, pray to a "holy father" using those terms, if there is only one masculine expression according to you? You did not answer, because you have no answer.
Clearly the E and M and the C2, are all three co-eternal Beings, much like a family is on earth, that function as a single Being.
This definition of poly, is a word game designed to spoil elohiym. Jews boast they understand elohiym differently, ignore the Hebrew meanings of echad and elohiym, as shown in Scripture.
I would agree with you, the Creator is not married to the Holy Spirit, elohiym is not of matter, BUT they are similes of FAMILY. You disagree with this idea.
In order to validate your theory, you have to reject several Scripture.
Gen 1:26 says the Creator made mankind in His image, gender male and gender female. You say two expressions. OK But why make them inside one body with two expressions. And later God made the masculine body sleepy and BUILD (not create) a feminine body as another body, FROM the masculine body.
The two bodies we see, become separate as bodies, we would say they are genetic CLONES, but not personality clones. Hebrew has two love words, the masculine love differently to the feminine, and yet the SAME body was made for BOTH expressions of LOVE.
I would call that a mono-being, not poly-beings.
God "banah" the woman, ie "built" here from a body (adam) that already existed.
The Scripture gives clues, ie darkly, of what the Divine might be like.
Another example is the jellyfish. You can divide a jellyfish into ten parts, and each part grows to new jellyfish all over again. From the one mono-being, we develop what? Poly-being jellyfishes? We would consider these ten jellyfishes as polybeings because they each move away and eat and do independently from each other, even though they are genetic clones of each other.
But in a marriage system (another picture GOD formed in the Bible) we are told the bodies become unified as one, meaning the personalities of loving become one system of love. In other words, the two thinking beings function as one being of thinking, and doing, and they work together all the time. This is unlike the jellyfishes.
One has to ask from all this, why makes mono and poly, different as words? Not the number of parts, but the unification of those parts as independent or community functions.
If the liver cells functions independently from the heart cell, we humans call this growing cancer. It's poly cellular growth as two separate systems.
If the liver cells function in a community setting with heart cells, than the overall system of trillions of cells, is ONE BODY of cells unified as ONE cell.
This is how I see the terms echad and elohiym, were invented by GOD in His Bible for us to perceive darkly a little of what GOD is like. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 15, 2020 20:37:41 GMT -5
Can we move on? Forget Scripture studies on elohiym? Why does GOD make Scripture the way it is? Only for man? Why did GOD make mankind into two bodies, that come together as one body? So this has nothing to do with a picture of elohiym? Can we move on please?
You can make as many nice metaphors as you wish - they are all nice catholic sermons God and the Holy Spirit are not man and woman - they are of a substance you cannot imagine E = mc2 you are I and all creation is on the right side of the equation The right side of the equation is our reality You can experience the E as m (Christ) or c2 (Holy Spirit)
Atomic energy = the mass of the bomb - and the radiation it radiates We can measure both the mass and the radiation If you try to merge with atomic energy you will die
Electricity = mechanical energy (a fan) + electromagnetic radiation as in the light from a bulb We can measure the fan and the light - but any attempt to merge with the electricity = death
You show from Scripture, nobody can see the E directly, face to face. Correct. AND this does not means that the E is none existant
Yes but you did not answer my question why did GOD in masculine expression, pray to a "holy father" using those terms, if there is only one masculine expression according to you? You did not answer, because you have no answer.
Father Creator + Christ + HS = 2 male + 1 female You cannot count
Clearly the E and M and the C2, are all three co-eternal Beings, much like a family is on earth, that function as a single Being.
E = mc2 is a valid statement remove any variable and it becomes an invalid statement - the math fails - false analogy
I would agree with you, the Creator is not married to the Holy Spirit, elohiym is not of matter, BUT they are similes of FAMILY. You disagree with this idea.
Again let me say - you can make as many metaphors as you wish The metaphor is not more valid than the thing it is trying to convey
In order to validate your theory, you have to reject several Scripture.
Gen 1:26 says the Creator made mankind in His image, gender male and gender female. You say two expressions. OK But why make them inside one body with two expressions. DUH - the Trinity exist in a multidimensional state man is built - designed - fitted - only for this dimension
God "banah" the woman, ie "built" here from a body (adam) that already existed. Now you are saying than gen 2 rewrites Gen 1 and therefore gen 1:27 is something we can skip over
The Scripture gives clues, ie darkly, of what the Divine might be like.
Another example is the jellyfish. The Trinity is not of the same substance as a jellyfish
But in a marriage system (another picture GOD formed in the Bible) we are told the bodies become unified as one, meaning the personalities of loving become one system of love. In other words, the two thinking beings function as one being of thinking, and doing, and they work together all the time.
Wait - haven’t you been married and divorced? When did you and your wife ever have the same mind? function as one being of thinking, and doing, and they work together all the time
You are confusing Mosaic Law A woman is under a man’s subjection - until she becomes a man (Gospel of Phillip) and Jewish Kabbalah In the Jewish household - the Man is the teacher / Rabbi Paul reflects this in Timothy and Titus - a woman should be silent in church - ask her husband at home alone - 100% Jewish But then you have Jewish women becoming leaders - Ruth - Goldie Mayer How - the same answer as the Gnostic answer from the Gospel of Phillip
A women is under a man’s subjection - until she takes responsibility for her own salvation Then - men = women before the Lord
One has to ask from all this, why makes mono and poly, different as words? Not the number of parts, but the unification of those parts as independent or community functions.
In 630 Ad Mohmand gathered together all the ‘other gods’ of Canaan and placed them in the Kaba Then declares that Allah is the supreme god over all these ‘other gods’
If the liver cells functions independently from the heart cell, we humans call this growing cancer. It's poly cellular growth as two separate systems. If the liver cells function in a community setting with heart cells, than the overall system of trillions of cells, is ONE BODY of cells unified as ONE cell.
AND YOU USE TO TEACH SCIENCE? One body of many cells = one body NOT one cell
I have been banging around the Bible Study circuit for 35/40 years - I have never met anouther Roman Christina that did under John 1:1-4 to mean that there is only one Word the Word = God the Word was with God - distance = Spirit and the Word was God = Christ
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2020 13:56:27 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I find metaphors, similes and object lessons from Nature useful. God wrote poetry in a book for a reason. Half of Scripture is poetry, full of similes, metaphors and object lessons, all for a reason.
Dave writes: "Again let me say - you can make as many metaphors as you wish The metaphor is not more valid than the thing it is trying to convey.
Eph 3:15 Of <ek> whom <hos> the whole <pas> family <patria> in <en> heaven <ouranos>
Well you follow your metaphors, I will follow what "poetry pictures" Scripture shows me clearly
Clearly says here Father Son and Holy Spirit, all named in this passage, along with every other family on earth, is associated with the family in heaven.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 16, 2020 22:18:10 GMT -5
I find metaphors, similes and object lessons from Nature useful. God wrote poetry in a book for a reason. Half of Scripture is poetry, full of similes, metaphors and object lessons, all for a reason. Dave writes: "Again let me say - you can make as many metaphors as you wish The metaphor is not more valid than the thing it is trying to convey.Well you follow your metaphors, I will follow what " poetry pictures" Scripture shows me clearly Clearly says here Father Son and Holy Spirit, all named in this passage, along with every other family on earth, is associated with the family in heaven. The Creator - the Word of John 1:1-4 is the Father of all creation What don't you get?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 14:05:24 GMT -5
Greetings Dave:"
Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
This passage speaks of LOVE within elohiym, as members named Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ.
Notice the Greek words :
"the whole family in heaven"
You cannot have loving persons showing the "the breadth, and length, and depth, and height" of love "rooted and grounded in love," as you dwell in Jesus, unless this loving is also found within the "elohiym system of love".
You ask, "what don't you get" ?
I don't get you calling elohiym NOT a family of Beings showing different aspects of love.
Jonaton Sarfetti, a respected speaker of mine, calls LOVE demonstrated as three minimum kinds, the parental love, and the collective love. Love cannot be demonstrated by one Personality.
You don't get this.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2020 0:33:14 GMT -5
The bane elohiym were in heaven - are these the brothers of Christ? The angels are in heaven - they have names - are they cousins - or nephews How does this mortal style family work? Are all the angels the sons of God - sure Are all the archon sons of God - sure
God + creation God was perfect before creation - alone and perfect Why did he make us - why did He make all creation - isn’t that an expression of love
or do you have to force love into something like we experience between mortal beings
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2020 5:42:45 GMT -5
I get it that creatures can demonstrate love in action...
But your model does not show GOD as a god of love in action, does it?
It says GOD is LOVE, not God's creatures demonstrate love...
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
As creatures love, GOD loves us, its a simile.
But where is your model of love within GOD itself?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2020 9:12:52 GMT -5
God did not have to create anything - He could have just been alone perfect But instead He created the all - to reveal His Glory You do not consider this an act of love - I do
What do you mean love within God itself? God loves the HS - HS love Christ - Christ loves God As if they were three different individual beings 3 gods = polytheoist
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2020 17:07:28 GMT -5
What do you mean love within God itself? God loves the HS - HS love Christ - Christ loves God As if they were three different individual beings
Three expressions of the same entity cannot demonstrate love unless these expressions permanently and for eternity demonstrate these aspects of loving as three unique Personalities. Than love, the great uncaused cause became from eternity as three parts of the whole, for a reason. Love must be fragmented into this way, otherwise love is not relational, nor a community unified as one being.
I am saying we have three personalities of loving unified as one Being of love. This makes three Persons of love, but one source of love completed.
You agree that love manifests as masculine and feminine expressions, but not agree these are personalities of persons.
The lowest reduction of love as a source or Spring, is three personalities of loving. Just as a battery making power must have three components, the masculine provider, the feminine receiver and the medium collector.
But you see three Persons as three Strong authorities. I see one divine Family. The Family has three Persons of loving, yes, but its ONE family. You don't like this because its a family, that means poly...but Scripture terms married families as one flesh, one being, one entity...ideally speaking... sin has spoiled families picture models since, but in Eden, God created family for a reason...
Are they literally one flesh? yes
Adam was 22 DNA sets plus XY set. Eve was 22 DNA sets same as Adam plus XX set.
Are the DNA different? no. Same DNA. Both sets the same. Both beings the same. But the persons express love differently. The feminine Being lacks a DNA subset.
Both were genetic clones, but not personality clones.
Children are just mixtures of the DNA, as they are mixed or collected in different ways.
So from a biological view, a family is one flesh. Why is this so hard to fathom?
Scripture says this, a husbands body is the same as a wife's body.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2020 22:56:28 GMT -5
Three expressions of the same entity cannot demonstrate love unless these expressions permanently and for eternity demonstrate these aspects of loving as three unique Personalities. Is this English – cannot – says who
Than love, the great uncaused cause became from eternity as three parts of the whole, for a reason. Love must be fragmented into this way, otherwise love is not relational, nor a community unified as one being. Love is not relational – to whom? Man and creation – or between your 3 gods A community unified as one being – So now no one exist at all – only God
I am saying we have three personalities of loving unified as one Being of love. This makes three Persons of love, but one source of love completed. you have how many personalities? - This might explain a few things
You agree that love manifests as masculine and feminine expressions, but not agree these are personalities of persons. I do? When did I say this - love has a male and female – I don’t even understand what you are saying God has a duality of nature – male and female God created man in His own image – male and female
Is there male and female hate?
Adam and Eve First you say: Are the DNA different? no. Same DNA Then you say: The feminine Being lacks a DNA subset
I am so confused to your point – are they the same or not? Actually there is a lot of difference between male and female DNA
Or is this more of they are exactly the same - except for their differences?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 13:19:01 GMT -5
It would be nice Dave if you added details to my replies. You don't do this. So we are both left confused over what we are saying to each other... For example you write :" So now no one exist at all – only God? ? unpack please?? Dave writes: " I am so confused to your point – are they the same or not? Actually there is a lot of difference between male and female DNAMy understanding is the first 22 sets of DNA are exactly the same in both the man and the woman, ie Adam and Eve. Correct me if I am wrong? Is this true? Adam had one more subset, the X with a Y. Eve had one more subset, the X with another X. The Y strand was left out on purpose. Is this a true account of the differences? Do you agree?So speaking of the DNA information, did Eve have anything different than Adam, in terms of DNA? My answer is no, Eve only lacked the Y DNA information, she had everything Adam had in terms of DNA, but lacked the vital Y DNA that must cause the gender male to express love differently than the gender female, that lacks the Y DNA strand. So they were genetic clones of each other, but not personality clones. DO you agree with this idea or not? Sure their personalities of loving was different, but they are of the same BEING. What Scripture calls one flesh, or unified as one. You say there is a lot of difference between the male and female DNA? there is? Where? I only see both couples with everything, but the gender male receives more information in a Y DNA strand, while the gender female does NOT receive this strand. That's the only difference I see. That does not make them two independent BEINGS, only two personalities of loving. They are ONE kind, ONE Being, ONE Set of DNA. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 22, 2020 14:03:20 GMT -5
For example you write :"So now no one exist at all – only God?? unpack please??The world you present does not individual beings within it – they are all just ‘sparks of the HS’ So speaking of the DNA information, did Eve have anything different than Adam, in terms of DNA? My answer is no, Eve only lacked the Y DNA information, This is how you clarify your view? There is no difference except the differences So they were genetic clones of each other, but not personality clones. DO you agree with this idea or not?Just how much DNA do you have in common with a monkey You are forcing Gen 2 to be a biology text – is it If you studies genetics you would find the many differences you and your own brother Yet both of the same parents I know you want to make it simple – but it is not It is a nice metaphor – but is not scripture That's the only difference I see. That does not make them two independent BEINGS, only two personalities of loving.
They are ONE kind, ONE Being, ONE Set of DNA.WOW – you and your wife are not two independent beings How about your x-wife – is she an independent being – I know mine is So none of us are independent beings – just sparks of the one and same HS Yet you ask – For example you write :"So now no one exist at all – only God?? unpack please??
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