Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 18:55:58 GMT -5
Thanks Richard for your reply.
You seem to suggest Richard that GOD tests mankind.
Dave makes this same Hebrew word into a confusion. Notice your comments Dave:
Does God "Nachah" man? Dave say yes. Richard says yes. Rob says yes
Does God "tempt" man directly? Dave says no. James says No.
Hang on a minute, this is the same Hebrew word "Nachah" ?
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is "Nachahed"
so James is saying man gets "Nachah" often.
I am "Nachahed" of God: for God cannot be "Nachahed" with evil,
neither GOD "Nachah" any man:
What's this context saying, it seems contradictory?
I am surprised nobody pointed out this problem? Hebrew words are broad in meaning
and have often opposite meaning embedded in them, which contexts bring out.
Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, curse God, and die.
The Hebrew word here for "curse" is "barak" meaning bless.
This Hebrew word means "bless" all the time, but the opposite meaning can be used if a context requires an opposite meaning.
So the opposite of bless is required here, hence curse.
Hebrew words have contexts where the opposite meanings are often required.
The Ancient Hebrew meaning of "Nachah" was pointed out earlier in my post, but not noticed:
Test : "Over the Nations, the prickles of sin: Behold the Person" , so if a person has a sinning condition in him, God uses the "Testing" process to make the person move away from that sinning towards GOD.
Richard so nicely posted a whole response on this process. Thank you Richard.
What is the context for a person moving in the opposite direction, away from GOD and into a deeper sinning condition? That word is the opposite context of "Nachah" , which the KJV correctly translate as "tempt".
So God does not tempt man is correct.
God would never make man do more sinning.
God would never make man sin.
Dave agrees with this. Rob also agrees with this.
Dave says GOD has a department that does this.
This cannot be.
When Gabriel visited Joseph to tell Mary God would make His Son encapsulated with humanity inside her womb, did the angel do this incarnation or did GOD themselves do this?
Sure GOD has departments of angels for certain functions, and this makes GOD the overall authority behind all the departments as well.
If the boss tells a hit man to murder a person, who is charged with the murder? The boss or the hit-man?
If a manfacturerer makes a dangerous product, one day a boss uses it to do something, and his employee uses the modifed product on other employee which accidently kills that person, who get the blame for the murder? A whole host of people do, including the manufacturer, as far as I can tell from my studies on this subject.
Dave has GOD creating archons, tempting humans to sin, has to be wrong. This implies GOD is indirectly involved in making humans sin. Directly or indirectly, its still saying God tempts man to sin.
Yet Scripture says GOD does not do this.
Sure I get Dave's response, "bring those men before my face and kill them here", is a parable, so is this the true response of a GOD of love? Scripture can appear contradictory if you use a line here and there, rather than read all the lines on a topic.
Dave writes: "YES! – every day – but God doesn’t do the testing Himself – He has a staff for that
Here we see the Hebrew word used in a confused way:
Yes GOD tests us every day, but GOD does not tempt us to do evil. Satan tempts us to do evil.
Dave has Satan and archons all designed and purposed by GOD, to "test" us.
This is an incorrect use of the Hebrew word. Satan, albeit archons do not test us to do less sinning, they tempt us to do more sinning.
This is how I see this Hebrew word being used in different and opposite contexts.
So does GOD want us to more sinning or less sinning? Less sinning obviously.
So GOD testing us , makes us aware of our sinning condition, so we do less sinning, turn towards GOD, and increase our faith in His power.
Somehow Dave has archons and "satan opposer powers" tempting us to do more sinning, yet this process is also from GOD, but not from GOD directly, but indirectly, God also is tempting us to do more sinning.
Can readers see how contradictory this is?
Dave writes: "Word game – God can’t be tempted – just accused / opposed / hated / and disobeyed
So the story of satan and Jesus in the wilderness is more fiction
Or Jesus is not God"
Would a creature be able to convince GOD to sin? Not at all. Such a contest would be totally unfair.
There is no way any of the members of GOD would want to separate themselves just because some creature tells them to. God is more powerful than any of his creatures.
So Dave is right here, God cannot be tempted.
So Dave, you change the story of Jesus and this devil to be a satan opposing power, but not a Ha-Satan who fell into sin long ago as an angel from heaven.
So for my theory of faith, why than does Satan tempt the Son of God? If GOD can't be tempted?
We have to see how Jesus, the Son of GOD lived on earth under the support of His Father using faith, in exactly the same way we humans also live by Faith in Jesus. This salvational process is an example in Jesus, that we live in victory the same way Jesus did. This makes it easier for Satan to tempt Jesus to break faith, to stop supporting His Father, and do a wonder using His own power. Did Jesus do this? no
Doing such a thing would be a sin in this context, presumption, not trusting in your Father's power of faith.
So in this sense Satan did tempt the Son of GOD to sin. However in a heavenly realm, Satan could never tempt any member of GOD to sin. That is impossible. This might explain why Satan is respectful entering the heavenly council of GOD, with the other unfallen kings of unfallen kingdoms, in Job 1.
Dave writes: "Then satan is doing exactly what God will him to do – correct
Yet – you keep telling me that satan has his own will to disobey God – even hates God – oppose and accuser
Look at the birds that fly under heaven. Is their daily pathway of flying about totally mapped out by GOD, and the DNA that allows this process? Or do birds fly under limited free will, to praise and sing and go where they want to go within limits and boundaries imposed by GOD?
Just because Satan has boundaries and limits to his power, does not mean GOD is in full control of everything Satan does, or that Satan does exactly everything GOD tells Him to do.
When you have a girl, does your girl do everything you say? After all you created your little girl?
You did not answer my question: Where does DISOBEDIENCE come from?
Dave writes: "So – your satan is more powerful than God – can alter God’s Will and universe
Satan powerful – God weak
A third of angels fell with Satan from heaven, some locked away in the abyss. Suggests to me love is more powerful than hate. Only a third fell. No angels had propensities of hate, only good.
On earth when Israel was saved, of the two million walking to Mt Sinai, how many were saved for the promised land? Only two. Sounds like hate is more powerful than love, when a creature is born with propensities of hate.
I see differences between heavenly angels and earthly humans.
On earth, love is a weak force, incapable of convincing humans born with propensities to love GOD, let alone support God daily with faith in His words.
However that does not mean GOD or God's love is weak, only that love respects free will of choice.
Its go nothing to do with power. Free will to choose, is true love in action.
Dave writes: "So – when God told satan to accuse Job – satan refused?
Where does JOB say God told Satan to accuse Job?
Dave writes: "So – when God set limits for satan – satan didn’t obey those boundaries
If an enemy obeys a higher authority, does that make your enemy a friend?
In yonder war battles, the messengers of both sides gather for a war chat. Such a chat is friendly, but does this mean the opposite sides were friends? According to you, they are?
Who is running this war battle? God is.
But whose the war about? God and Satan.
So how do you make the war fair, so God's name is vindicated? You have the war on another world in another universe, using a medium power (fair to both sides - limiting both parties) and allow the other unfallen kings and their unfallen kingdoms to watch the contest.
Does Scripture say there was war in heaven? Not according to you? only 6 seconds. For me this war has been going on for 6 thousand years.
Dave writes: "See – you have two Kings and two gods
Yes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that?
Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Satan says to Eve, if you eat this forbidden fruit, you will be as elohiym plural, knowing good and evil.
It is necessary to know good and evil like GOD knows? Do you have to touch electricity to know its bad to touch?
Ex 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?
Here it says who is like YHWH among the other strong authorities. Thus YHWH is a member of elohiym.
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
But here it says no other elohiym's before my face. Are other elohiym's only of human origin?
De 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands,
This says yes, other gods come from men's hands.
De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
The Hebrew word "shed" meaning "breasts" also as "demons" suggests gods not of human origin. But these power claim to be elohiym powers.
Dave would say these "shed" come from archons, who were designed by GOD... why would GOD create a Being to oppose Himself? Just to test humans? Does this make sense?
Ps 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
Funny Dave rejects the theology of one verse. yet here there are only two verses about "shed" the breasted demon powers who are other elohiym powers, not of human origin.
Jeff Benner says 7699 is also a part of this Hebrew word.
Ge 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
So this Hebrew word "breasts" has also two meaning, each opposite each other, depending upon context, just as "test/tempt" are opposites.
The "breast" refers to the Shadday, also the Holy Spirit, so the opposite context, must refer to a demon breast power who is opposite to the Holy Spirit, as a power of elohiym.
1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,
and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Here is a major clue, but Dave might say GOD sends the demon power over Saul. Maybe GOD is in control of this war, but if the Holy Spirit, a breast power leaves Saul, as we are told, than a opposite power comes over Saul, the breast demon power troubles Saul. Who is this demon breast power? Can't be of GOD, otherwise GOD is the doer of both good and evil.
What does the NT say about this "shed" Hebrew word?
It says Jesus was tempted by the breast demon power in the wilderness, and Jesus calls this power a satan, because it demands the worship of the Father to itself, as elohiym.
Thus this breast demon power, that fell from heaven like lightning, has to be Satan.
And in Rev 12:8 a war with angels, this breast demon power has to be a fallen angel.
Just as Ezekial 28 says. cherub chata. A angel who sins, just as King Tyre sins, both are simile of elohiym powers, one is human the other heavenly.
Dave writes: "Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
And according to you – satan refuse to obey
In fact you say - absolutely disobey
If you tell a heavenly elohiym power, all is in thy power, you not telling the opposing power anything much, the opposing power will do automatically, because that is its character. If you tell a snake all in in your power, the snake goes away doing what snakes do, they kill. They weren't always designed to kill, but man's sinning, changed the nature of snakes. Satan wasn't always a bad angel, but sinning changed that. Notice GOD didn't tell Satan to love Job, something Satan would never do. God just told Satan all you are of character do, but some limits I place on you, because I love Job.
Dave writes: "And in the end who did Balaam obey – God Will always
No Baalim after, GOD left, told others how to make Israel sin, using Fornication was used to lead Israel astray. Having strange girls around the pious Jews. So in the end Baalim did not obey God's will at all.
For the blessing, yes He was forced to comply, reluctantly.
Shalom everyone, thanks for the comments.