Dave asks me to read of some Jew with a view of Satan as an adversary or opponent:
Website writes: "The entire Book of Job, he writes, is fictional, intended merely to elucidate certain truths about divine providence. And even if it is true, Maimonides continues, certainly the portion in which God and Satan speak with each other is merely a parable.
www.myjewishlearning.com/article/satan-the-adversary/
Rob writes: "Maimonides claims the entire Book Of Job is fictional.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: (KJV)
Than a literal redeemer is fictional too?
Website writes: "Satan makes many appearances in the Talmud. A lengthy passage in the tractate Sanhedrin accords Satan a central role in the biblical story of the binding of Isaac. According to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, it was Satan that caused the Jewish people to despair of Moses returning from Mount Sinai by showing them an image of the prophet on his deathbed.
Rob writes: "Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi writes of Satan causing the Jewish people to sin? You can read the source link but not copy and paste it.
Website writes: "A passage in the tractate Megillah says that Satan dancing at the party of the Persian King Ahasuerus is what led to the killing of Queen Vashti in the Purim story.
Rob writes: "This website speaks of Satan as a person affecting Jewish people??
Dave writes: "I am confused – do you argree that God created all the archon
Or – just the unfallen beings?
If God didn’t created all the demons in hell – who did?
Rob writes: "God created all the angels, all the bad ones were once perfect and good, they became bad, by changing their relationship to GOD. A demon is just a functional description for a cherub or angel.
Dave writes" I begged you for months to show me one verse from the Tanak or the Talmud to support the catholic theology that satan is God’s opponent
Rob writes: "I would have to read Jewish Kabbalah and Talmud sources and Jewish material. Do you have any website that offers such material for free online reading? JSTOR and other sites require money. Are there any Messenic Jewish websites that offer perhaps a different viewpoint to classical Jewish thought?
Dave writes: "All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, Ezekiel 28. At least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter what it says
Rob writes: "Do we agree "satan" the Hebrew word as a verb means to "oppose" or be an opponent, in every case? The "Satan" hebrew word as a noun, must also have a similar meaning, one who oposes or is an opponent,
so I read all the lines, all the verses, and this is what I see.
But you disagree?
Are you swayed by a majority of verses, rather than all verses? Even in Job, "Satan" has to be an opponent, not a friend of GOD, otherwise the other verses are also friends, but clearly this can't be, so the word has to have one meaning for all contexts.
One must find another reason why Satan the opponent acted according to God's will in Job?
Doesn't a Christian get protection from the adversary or opponent? Is this not why Satan has to do as his told, He is being contrained by GOD all the time. But if the man chooses to walk away from GOD, the contraining protection relaxes, and Satan wounds them.
Dave writes: "Man – show me a passage from the Tanak telling of the devil murdering other angels or heavenly beings
Rob writes: " Jesus was both a Man and God in one body wasn't He? Did Satan lead the humans to kill the Son of GOD? There is one evidence right there? Jesus is a heavenly being. Satan murdered this heavenly being.
Dave writes: "If your catholic satan is God’s opponent – why didn’t satan fight with Jesus – try to kill Jesus
Rob writes: " Christian believers receive protection from the Opponent.
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?
God offers protection:
De 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
39 ¶ See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
When did Satan murder God's Son? When GOD forsaked His Son.
Ps 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from Yashuah, and from the words of my roaring?
What do Jews mean by saying this verse?
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
A Man cannot be a GOD, explain the Jewish thinking for me Dave.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:
So who is allowing Jesus to be murdered? The Father is... why? There must be another power from above opposing the Father?
Joh 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
Why is Jesus a King? Where did this come from? The Father, the Ancient of Days, gave His Son earth to be His kingdom and to be a king. How does a king reign over a kingdom? by battling with the king of earth.
Is there a king of earth? yes
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Who is this King of Earth, Jesus fights over by dying without sinning in his Kingdom? This king had to get this king to sin, than the kingdom would be forever his. Two kings battle it out.
One king asks the other king to worship him. Nothing to do with man. You made no comment on this.
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Now this devil, opponent, is not man, Jesus is not man. They are both kings. One is king of earth. One is king of heaven, given earth to be his kingdom. Adam was king of earth, but lost his crown to satan, who is now king.
Jesus comes as a man to become king of earth again. He has to battle over this angel, devil, satan.
We are commanded only to worship GOD, not archons, angels or devils, or other gods.
Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
One has to read who is the real king of authority behind Caesar? Is this king a man? no the king is a fallen angel.
So to explain this, the Scriptures show a Caesar type man called King Tyre.
And the metaphor shows similes to another King behind King Tyre.
A cherub who sinned, becoming King of Humans, after Adam sinned.
So sin doesn't just mean "missing" it also means changing from one king to another king. Does Scripture allude to this idea? yes
Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
Why does sin cause a death penalty?
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Whose doing the death here? Prince of this world... But why?
Joh 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
This alludes to Creation, where light is contrasted to dark.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
It's very clear Jesus is not fighting a human king, but a heavenly king, to save the world by dying sinless under this king.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Is this king opposing just Jesus as a king of man, or a king over all the universes as well. If the king of earth could get Jesus to sin under his kingom, than the king of earth would have his kingdom forever. It would never end.
So the war is not just about man, its about the Father and the angel who claims to be king of earth.
Joh 13:31 ¶ Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
Again this King is not fighting over man, but a king of this world, the king was sent to glorify GOD.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Again this shows this King who dies without sinning under the king of earth, is not about man per se, but higher than man, it's about the Father doing the battle over this claim of being a king.
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Again the king of earth is judged by Jesus a king of earth, regaining the kingdom Adam lost. It's not a battle over man, by man for man. It's a battle over the angel who sinned who claims to be king, and is also the king of death, for all who live under this king, will die.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Why does Jesus call "Satan" a father of all murders, a father of all liars?
Dave writes: "Isn't your satan a dysfunctional being? - so confusing
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
This angel was perfect until the angel began sinning. Thus a relationship changed.
Dave notes problems in Hebrew writing:
1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
There are two kings here, and therfore three relationships.
Relationship of the two kings to each other "satan" they are opponents.
Relationship of King Angel to David, only when David sins, and hops over to this king as his ruler over him.
Relationship of GOD as king of David, when David hops over to obey GOD as ruler over him.
Did David sin before he was moved to number Israel?
2 Samual 23: 12 and the LORD wrought a great victory.
15 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!
What sin is this?
Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
David forgot His Lord, and self reigned in his heart.
SO:
2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled
The relationship became spoiled...
another relationship was strengthened
And Satan stood up against Israel
And the sinner made more sinning:
provoked David to number Israel.
That's how I see this passage Dave.
Dave writes: "Or isn't it very clear that satan is a good and faithful servant of the Lord doing God's dirty work
Read all the passages about this topic, as I have shown you in John. It causes a change in view. But Jews do not read the NT, the latter torah of YHWH, do they, hence their darkness in the former torah of the OT.
Yet there are hints of kings over battles with humans:
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
both noun and verb form of satan in verse 1
why does GOD rebuke the opponent, if it's a friend...no friend...it's an opponent of GOD...why battle over a high priest? a simile of Jesus as high priest, that's why.
Zec 3:8 ¶ Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Is this battle only over man, or kings in heavenly places? How does GOD remove the iniquity of that land in one day? by dying sinless under the king of sin and death. Is there a king of sin and death? There has to be, otherwise this verse makes no sense. Who makes this claim? The LORD YHWH KING of ARMIES does, which armies? the armies of angels.
Dave writes: "Or isn't it very clear
Scripture is hidden for a reason, written in poetry, figures and parables. Over half of torah is poetry as Jeff Benner says. It's clear if you dig out every line upon line, and all the other words that link. Like I show you here.
Shalom