Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2020 14:20:21 GMT -5
Sorry Gentlemen, I didn't see other posts. Thanks Richard. Your point is well taken. Thanks Dave for a bigger post and answer. Sorry I saw and answered only the latter one. Shalom everyone
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2020 14:37:54 GMT -5
Dave writes:
Catholics elevate satan to a creator godhood - satan is the one responsible for the world being like it is - God is not in contol anymore - God has lost control - even a full 1/3rd of all the angels that God specifically created to worship Him chooses Catholic Satan to be their one true god and follow Satan Catholic satan big and strong – able to alter God’s will – now that is a silly idea
OK, I read your view:
So God is always and has always been fully in control?
How come He allows an Archon to come into existence?
no sinning angels, billions of examples of love not demonstrated
ra and good come from same GOD, that means love and hate together
OK.
So you don't have GOD on trial?
What's the judgement for?
Whose the last Being to die?
postscript reading from your older posts Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 26, 2020 18:26:52 GMT -5
Dearest Dave, you write so well, but it is also confusing and self contradictory.
I thank you for sharing your deepest thoughts with me, because your view helps to broaden my own mind and see other points of view.
Dave writes: "God does not do the testing / tempting / corrupting / harming / ra Himself – he has a staff for that function – that function is called satan – the opponent / accuser
Then satan, God’s servant, obeys God – does exactly what God tells him to do – test Job AND – satan was given guidelines and/or limits to obey – and satan obeyed those limits
Notice a problem here:
1) how can a word that means opponent, BUT also mean friendly servant?
I see your problem - you say the word means opponent - but wheneven you translate the word you always translate it as God's opponent'opponent' vrs 'God's opponent' - two entirely different word usages In context - the word never means a friend - it always means opponent / accuser In context each and every time - in context - satan is God's servant and opposing man But because you believ in Catholic satan - you twist each verse until it fits your doctrine Or you egnore scripture if it does fit the catholic view Which scripture is correct Ezk 28:15 or Joh 8:44 - they are absolutley contradictory You cannot have it both ways Was the devil / chief archon a lier from the very beginning as Jesus says Or does the Catholic view of Ezk mean that Jesus Christ , tyhe Son of God, God incarnate - was wrong Gnostic literature says - the Chief Archon's very first thought and expression was a lie Gnostic literature agrees 100% with Jesus Christ
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 26, 2020 19:30:45 GMT -5
Created - Gen 1:1 Then the Chief Arhon spoke in Gen 1:2 Sinned created the Choshek The Serpent is alive and well long before Eden YES! – absolutely agreeEvery context of satan must be as an oppose / accuser – that is his function The opponent is restrained from hurting who – earth – not God In the future satan will have his way where – earth – not in heaven Agree - totally Human’s do have the Free Will to choose – the archon make the choice deceptively confusing It is their function – to be the satan opposing man – hindering man along his path to salvation NOA lot of people do not understand scriptureWhat does the scripture sayJob 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment? Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. If elephant flew and fish talked a lot of things might be different – I’ll stick to what scripture says. I know you believe this – all Catholics do Yet in all this time you have failed to show me one vers supporting your view --------------------- Always – God is absolute - omnipotent - His will on earth as in heaven (Jesus said) Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.It was all for Him – it was all for God - Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi LibraryAnd before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibraryNow all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety. … it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being – after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained.after the pattern of all the things above - As in heaven - so also on earth Mat 6 Nothing has happened that hasn't already happened before Ec 9 It all happened once before in the GAP of Gen 1:2 It began - choshek entered (Chief Archon) - light becomes the salvation (Christ) Adam and Eve began - choshek entered (serpent) - Gen 3:15 the Contest between satan's seed and Eve' seed is firmly established - Christ figures offer salavtion for man - Noah, Moses, and eventually Jesus Christ It is what scripture says Isa 45:7, Col 1:16, Joh 1:4 NO – impossible – who can oppose God – no one God is so much greater than anything from within creation For MAN - to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. - to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Are you with God – or just a pretender? Are you a Christian – or just a church going pretender? Mat 10:32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 14:02:40 GMT -5
You write really well Dave. I will stop defending what you call a Catholic view. I want to know more about your view.
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library Now all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety. … it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being – after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained.
Nice quote
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
So the Chief Archon became the first to sin.
Dave writes: "I see your problem - you say the word means opponent - but when ever you translate the word you always translate it as God's opponent
'opponent' vrs 'God's opponent' - two entirely different word usages
In context - the word never means a friend - it always means opponent / accuser In context each and every time - in context - satan is God's servant and opposing man
I see your view. Thanks for the clarification.
SO your saying there is not a single context where an angel opposes GOD, and becomes God's opponent?
And even the chief Archon, only opposes man, and never God?
Do we have a statement defining what exactly is the Chief Archon?
Is this being an angel or something else?
I remember you saying the Chief Archons father other demons of itself. But what exactly is the Demon according to you?
You have two Beings dealing with RA, the Chief Archon, and a good angel doing a bad job, to "oppose man" so man turns back to GOD.
Whereas I have only one Being who started these relationships we term RA and SIN.
You mention a contradiction in Scripture:
Dave writes: "Which scripture is correct Ezk 28:15 or Joh 8:44 - they are absolutely contradictory - You cannot have it both ways.
John 8:44 says Devil also termed by Jesus as "opponent" was a murderer from the beginning. Where is any contradiction?
You might be thinking chief archon here, whereas I see Jesus combining both your beings into the same being. Care to unpack your thoughts?
The word "murderer" does not mean to "kill creatures per se".
Strong's ratsach 7523. Jeff Benner writes :
V) ( R-TsHh) — Murder: [freq. 47] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Pual, Piel, Participle) |kjv: slayer, murderer, kill, murder, slain, manslayer, killing, death| {str: 7523} Nm) ( R-TsHh) — Wound: A deadly wound. [freq. 2] |kjv: sword, slaughter| {str: 7524}
The word has two form, spelt with same letters. Verb form and noun form.
Therefore verb form must mean "wounding" and noun form "wound". SO the commandment really means "no wounding".
If you break relationship with GOD, you are wounding Him. Every time we speak and write to each other, we must edify and respect each other, lest by our words we might be wounding each other, and thus sin. This is what this Hebrew word means. The physically killing to end life, is a more extreme example of wounding.
Did a cherub break relationship with GOD and thus begin wounding God? Yes So I see both verses as complete harmony.
What do you see Dave? What is your point of view?
Why did the cherub break relationship with GOD, Scripture does not say. It is a mystery. But in order to break relationship, the angel has to have had free will in order to do so, something you do not agree.
Does this cherub oppose God?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
One should study the two worms here for clues, in the poetry passage. Clearly some "ben shachar" wanted to be as great as the Most High and be like the Most High.
All we have to do is study who is "ben shachar"?
Another poetry symbol.
7837 Jeff Benner writes:
V) ( Sh-HhR) — I. Dark: To be dark in color. II. Seek: To peer into the dim light of morning in search for something. [freq. 13] (vf: Paal) |kjv: black, seek, betimes| {str: 7835, 7836} Nm) ( Sh-HhR) — Dawn: The place of the rising sun. [freq. 24] |kjv: morning, day, early, dayspring, light, rise| {str: 7837}
two forms verb and noun, both must have same meaning.
Jeff cannot decide how to translate these.
The Ancient Hebrew letters read "the pressed outside HEAD" gives us a clue.
Let's look who this "pressed outside HEAD" might be?
Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression and take away <`abar> mine iniquity for now shall I sleep in the dust and thou shalt seek me in the morning <shachar>, but I shall not be.
Job 8:5 If thou wouldest seek <shachar> unto God <'el> betimes <shachar>, and make thy supplication to the Almighty <Shadday>;
Job 24:5 Behold, as wild asses in the desert go they forth to their work rising betimes <shachar> for a prey the wilderness yieldeth food for them and for their children .
Ps 63:1 when he was in the wilderness of Judah O God <'elohiym>, thou art my God <'el>; early will I seek <shachar> thee: my soul thirsteth for thee,..
Ps 78:34 When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early <shachar> after God <'el>.
Pr 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer they shall seek me early <shachar>, but they shall not find me:
Pr 7:15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek <shachar> thy face and I have found thee.
Pr 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early <shachar> shall find me.
Pr 11:27 ¶ He that diligently seeketh <shachar> good <towb> procureth favour but he that seeketh <darash> mischief <ra`>, it shall come unto him.
Pr 13:24 ¶ He that spareth his rod hateth his son but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes <shachar>.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night <layil>; yea, with my spirit <ruwach> within me will I seek thee early <shachar>:
Ho 5:15 in their affliction they will seek me early <shachar>.(KJV)
And when you look at the noun forms(24 contexts) I get the impression the term "seek" is personified as a Being , the "Seeker" who functions as "light".
It's confusing, but an interesting study... What do you think?
Job 7:21 and thou shalt seek Me, but I shall not be. Job 8:5 If thou seek a strong Authority seeking the Shadday? Job 24:5 Behold, as wild asses in the desert go they forth to their work seeking for a prey... Ps 63:1 I seek thee: Pr 8:17 I love them that seek me, shall find me.
And the noun form:
Ge 19:15 And when the Seeker rose, Ge 32:24 Jacob wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the Seeker. Job 3:9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the Seeker.
(this verse make the poetry personification of Seeker, as a Being of light, as some creatures created as also "sons of light" or "sons of the Seeker".)
Song 6:10 Who is she that looketh forth as the "Seeker", fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? 11 ¶ I went down into the garden of nuts to see the "Providers" of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded.
(both verses here make simile of Seeker as "Holy Spirit, Father and Jesus")
SO getting back to the verse at question:
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O "brightness", son of the "Seeker"! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of the "Strong Authority": I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Clearly saying to me, a Son of the Seeker, wanted to be higher than the Father Most High. Which "Creature Being" we are not told.
This is why pagan religions worshipped the Sun, as they say the Seeker, as GOD. God hated this idea, the Sun is only a symbol. Not GOD in person.
When we translate Sacred Poetry back to a secular Holy Bible, we lose the poetry pictures, personification and symbols of poetry. Sure "seeker" sounds funny, but its a poetry term.
So some being wanted to be like the Most High, is clearly written in Scripture so far.
Your comments are welcome Dave. Especially interested in why you see those two texts you quoted as contradictory. Shalom my friend
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 14:27:50 GMT -5
Imagine "some being wanted to be like the Most High" and the other angels look at the Father and see Him crying for the first time ever in the entire helm of the universe of time. The Son of the Seeker was wounding the Father. A murderer from the beginning is a fuzzy translation, but describes the scene accurately.
If this angel using words gets other angels to come over to his side and break relationship, that angel has wounded the other angel through deception of words, and wounded others. Our picture of murderer is misleading. You can abuse or murder you son with nicknames, which sadly I did to my son, who got me to acknowledge my murdering of my son all those years ago.
Enjoy you day Dave. New mercies every morning.
Postscript to my older Post Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 27, 2020 20:52:07 GMT -5
I have been begging you to show me one – you haven’t The archon test all creation – testing man here on earth is just one of many task they do The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibrarySophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'. heavenly being - elohiym of the same order as good angels - but a liar from the beginning so we don’t call him an angel - but an archon - meaning ruler, authority, sar, prince, Jinn, bad guy Absolutely the biggest mistake is miss-identifying the playersRev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. What I choose to add to my own personal cosmology Who - G1228 – διάβολος / diabolos / the devil The dragon beast is also called the devil and a satan Why call the beast, who is the devil, a satan – because satan is a verb / a function They act as satans Christian make no separation between satan and the devil / beast / dragon Gnostics say - the dragon / beast / devil = the Chief Archon Gnostic say - satan = any being serving in that function [/b] [/quote] Question Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is a trinity of evil - the beast/ dragon / devil + satan + the false prophet Please explain to me how this is just satn + satan + satan This Chief Archon (devil elohiym) then formed offspring within the darkness = archon In fact he fathered 7 that fathered 12 that have 72 domains / realms – each with its own ruler / archon Offspring of the devil elohiym = bane elohiym = archon – offspring of the devil / Chief Archon Book of Jubilees 10 states – that at the Flood – satan begged for 10% of the Nephilim to remain to assist satan in his task – God allows 10% to remain First this remaining 10% fathered the Rephiem of Canaan – but once they died their spirits are trapped on/in earth as evil spirits All archon function as satan not all satans are archon – example God / Peter That would be the King of Tyre That would be any of us who think we are something special Arrogance
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 28, 2020 8:22:57 GMT -5
You have two Beings dealing with RA, the Chief Archon, and a good angel doing a bad job, to "oppose man" so man turns back to GOD. Whereas I have only one Being who started these relationships we term RA You don’t even support you own view According to you and the Catholics a full 1/3rd of all the heavenly angels Were created perfect, without sin, but each one exercised their Free Will But all these other “fallen ageless” do nothing / don’t exist / you one have one Gnostic view There are many archon all over creation working for the beast Years ago one man made a bad decision – maybe your satan helped him make that decision He took a wagon train of families into the mountains too late in the season A child drowned cross a river – the snow fell – some others froze to death in their sleep Wolves ate the horses - two of the men fell to their death from a clift Question – is your satan responsible for the cold or the wolves – Or was that just nature – the nature of entropy – ra Today the system forced people to close their business and give up their incomes Which guy in the system is your satan – they all cannot be your one satan – is it the local official – state official – federal – deep state – who The BEAST = the system The BEAST and the archon test all creation in all the cosmos Right now the BEAST employs several ‘sars’ / princes / arhon / generals Allah – the prince of this earth – the prince of Persia – the ‘sar’ of America – the ‘sar’ of China The BEAST was the father of the Rephiem – a tainted human gene pool The BEAST is the father of the bane elohiym that fathered the Nephilium The Chief Archon is so much larger than your satan verb Sorry to burst you Catholic view – but man and earth IS NOT the entire cosmos Just one small part of a much larger whole So you are willing to toss out the Book of Job And now you are willing to alter the words of Jesus Christ to make your point Jesus says devil – yes the devil functions as a satan – but Jesus did not say satan, He said devil Word substations within verses to make a point = word games SO – lets use you word game method Jesus said that satan was a liar from the very beginning – as in “In the beginning” – Jh 8:44 Ezk says – satan was perfect from the beginning then changed Who is correct Jesus or Ezk? Your view is 100% contradictory
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 14:04:12 GMT -5
Nice theory of faith Dave
What kind of creature, a product of matter, does the Scripture functionally term this chief Archon?
Angels are termed "cherub", though Jews like to impose other Hebrew words, which I find is a stretch of the Hebrew.
Humans are termed "adam" in two personality forms, the gender male and the gender female.
A fallen angel is termed "devils or demons" because they "oppose" GOD. (but it seems only in NT??)
Dave writes: "But all these other “fallen ageless” do nothing / don’t exist / you one have one"
There are ten thousands of thousands of fallen angels, many are lock in the abyss, but many also function as helpers for their army commander, who is not named, just functionally described as "serpent" or "devil" or "satan" the "opponent". How else does "saatan" achieve speaking RA to all humans via your conscience. Whom does this? The helping satanic angels do, helping their chief commander making humans hate God. They are certainly not testing humans or wanting humans to turn to God, as you claim.
You do not have a Hebrew functional term for this matter that became the "chief archon", indeed if such a term exists, it should be in both the OT and NT.
The term "archon" we have discussed before means "prince". This "sar" is across the OT and NT. Both Jesus and Satan are "kings" or "princes" fighting over their kingdoms, which humans are subjects of.
Dave writes: "heavenly being - elohiym of the same order as good angels - but a liar from the beginning so we don’t call him an angel - but an archon - meaning ruler, authority, sar, prince, Jinn, bad guy
Where in Scripture does the term "archon" exist, in which it is called "elohiym" ? Than you say of the same order as good angels? What? Where in Scripture does the term "archon" exist, in which it is called "cherub" ?
Though you might use other Hebrew words like "burning" "seraph" for example.
Dave writes: "Jesus says devil – yes the devil functions as a satan – but Jesus did not say satan, He said devil Word substations within verses to make a point = word games
Aren't you playing "word games" ?
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Now in Hebrew, we have Matthew written in Hebrew, it uses "devil" and "satan-noun", why do you divide these functional descriptions whereas I say these are functional descriptions of the same Being?
Scripture teaches us Beings have many functional descriptors. GOD is elohiym, merciful, eloah, wonderful, peace, YHWH for example, all refer to GOD.
Scripture teaches us the Opponent is termed as "Devil" "Serpent" "Satan" "father" "murderer" etc.
So this verse is not an example of GOD calling the Devil a satan-noun, you say?
De 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
These "other gods" do they oppose GOD or just oppose MAN? Notice the term used here is "elohiym", not something lower than elohiym, but exactly as elohiym, just as you claim your chief archon comes from.
Da 3:28 ¶ Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
If you look up these Aramaic words "not serve nor worship any god, except their own God" the term used here is "'elahh Aramaic" or "eloah" a term meaning "Father-GOD" or pagan "father-god". This makes your archon as high as "father-god" thus opposes directly "Father-GOD".
Why do you say archons only want to test you, to get you to turn back to Father-God, whereas Scripture says the "father-gods" want the entire worship from you for themselves, rather than the FATHER-GOD in heaven? Clearly this is not an oppose just for man but clearly against GOD Himself?
Dave writes: "Jesus said that satan was a liar from the very beginning – as in “In the beginning” – Jh 8:44 Ezk says – satan was perfect from the beginning then changed
Who is correct Jesus or Ezk? Your view is 100% contradictory.
You seem stuck on the Hebrew term "beginning", since when does this term refer to time in precise? Does Hebrew write linear details over time? No. Greek does this. According to Jeff Benner Hebrew uses block logic. I would suggest you spend some hours reading Jeff Benner's Ancient Hebrew Research Center, to get a feel for how Hebrew works.
"re'shiyth" means according to Jeff Benner
Strong's 7225
Nf4) ( RAShYT) — Beginning: The head of a space such as the head of a river or time such as an event. [freq. 51] |kjv: beginning, firstfruits, first, chief| {str: 7225} af1)
ef1) ( RY-AShH) — Beginning: The head of a space such as the head of a river or time such as an event. [ms: Nwsar] [freq. 185] |kjv: first, former, beginning, chief, before, old, foremost, aforetime| {str: 7223}
He has two different words "7225" and "7223" both as "beginning". This is NOT good. Why can't we have different English words for different Hebrew words? Unless different English words don't exist?
Wow the contexts are same as each other?
Ge 49:2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father. 3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Jacob had strength before the boy was born, so your use of beginning does not fit.
Job 8:7 Though thy beginning was small, yet thy latter end should greatly increase.
Your saying one cannot begin perfect and later become a liar? Job begins small and later becomes greater. This is not playing word games, but looking up how words are used in sentences in Scripture.
Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:
Again not a reference to exactly in time, but broadly in time.
Ps 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:
Again not a reference to exactly in time.
Pr 3:9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
Again not a reference to exactly in time.
Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning (rosh), or ever the earth was.
So how far back in time does this "beginning" go?
Grk#:746 / ar-khay (noun): Beginning/Leader Freq:&58 Heb#:7225 ראשית / rey-shit (noun): Summit
Jeff links Greek arche to 7225, the Hebrew beginning.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
So the devil, later called satan-noun by Jesus, was a father of liars from the beginning. Beginning of what? Beginning when he became a father of liars.
Ezekiel goes back further to whom became the father of liars. A cherub.
You have the Holy Spirit allowing a byproduct of matter to come into being.
"Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". "\
So the archon becomes sinning all by itself? Have you changed the definition of sin?
I thought "chata" means "miss"? Miss what? Miss a relationship with GOD.
This archon is not missing anything, just wanting to be GOD from as soon as it comes into being. And who allowed this? The Holy Spirit?
And your saying these archons just test us, but not hurt or kill us? So GOD asked an angel to volunteer to help man turn to GOD, man's opponent, to stop us wandering with archon, but the opponent forces us to turn to GOD?
Why so many departments helping man? You have both God and Opponent helping man against Archons?
Scripture does NOT talk about two departments helping man, but only One, called Jesus and His angels. Jesus is termed "rescue".
Why would Jesus need a department called "opponent" to help man? Why can't His own angels fight for us?
The NT does not describe the war in heaven and also on earth in those terms. Only two enemies. The NT does not say that Jesus fought archon and archon angels, in Rev 12:8
Dave writes: "Jesus says devil – yes the devil functions as a satan – but Jesus did not say satan, He said devil
Is there an OT Hebrew word for devil?
If not what Hebrew word could the term be? I can't find an OT Hebrew word for devil?
Shalom my friend.
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 29, 2020 10:26:43 GMT -5
Humans are termed adam – sure They come in two genders – male and female – of course – why, because they were created in the image of God, male and female Gen1:27 Angels are H4397 – מַלְאָךְ - mal'âk From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger. All Jews everywhere have 10 orders of angels – because there are 10 functions of God / 10 Serifots All Messianic Jews have 10 orders of angels Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptist, and even the Unitarian and Mormons have 10 orders of angels Chuck Missler has a presentation about the 10 orders YOU – and evidently the SDA are the first and only person ever to make your claim Not only are there 10 orders of angels – but all angels are male and female Zec 5:9 Why – because they are created in God’s image – male and female 100% agreement with Gnostic cosmology - because in cerian situations female archon tempt men and male archon tempt women And this makes and excellent study for the angel Gabriel Man centered theology has led us to think of Gabriel as male Gabe – riel Yet, this angels is always associated with childbirth If this angel is female – as in – Gab - riel This was the angel that appeared to Mary – female to female This is the angel that announced the promise of the savior to Daniel This was the angel that gave Mohmand the Koran – and the birth of the anti-Christ religion on earth Therefore – again it is the feminine aspect of God that set the stage for the contest OK – I will use your theology Ezk 28 proves to your that satan = cherub - all of your "fallen angels" are cherub according to you Now you question the possibility of the bad-guy angels could ever be the same as cherubs You should listen to yourself and how far you will bend your own theology to support Catholic doctrine So was your satan on the order of cherubs or not – you seem confusedDo the archon want you to turn back to God? – where did you ever get that idea The archon test creation – I have no idea if they care which way you choose All they do is test – and what do they test – they test if you love God with all you heart and soul If they can talk you into worshiping them – then you have failed your test They do want you to worship them - if you are worshiping them then you fail the test if you Love the Lord with you hert and soul They want blood sacrifices - human sacrifices / babies The Gospel of Philip - The Nag Hammadi LibraryThese are powers (archon) which [...] man, not wishing him to be saved, in order that they may [...]. For if man is saved, there will not be any sacrifices [...] and animals will not be offered to the powers (archon).The archon are the "other gods" of the 99% - they want your worship - YES! If you are into FreeMason numerology - there are 33 "other gods" identified by name in the Tanak They want you to worship anython other than God - mammon, wealth, fame, power, Look at how drastically your word games fail you Or look at how far you will go to prove your flawed theology
OK – lets explore the Hebrew Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee. Where is your word “beginning”? I do not see it in the Hebrew of the verse I presented How can I be hung up on the Hebrew word meaning beginning? OK – so your satan was perfect from the day he was created / born then he changed afterwards BUT – JESUS says (remember the source) Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning (ἀρχή), and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. ἀρχή is Greek – as in the New Testament From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate). The chief period of time – the first period of time – since birth – since creation Jesus CLEARILY says the devil was a liar from the ἀρχή Ezk say your cherub was perfect from the day he was created Your theology is 100% contradictory with the words of Jesus Christ I’ll take His word over yours No it does not –it means ruler or authority and the Muslims call them Jinn (Djinn) It can be a sar, it can be a satan, it can be an evil spirit Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities (archon), against the powers(archon), against the world-rulers of this darkness(archon), against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places(archon). I have answered this question for you several times - thats OK, because I love discussing the Lord and scripture Archon in the Hebrew Tanak = shedim (Deut. 32:17; Ps. 106:37; cf. I Cor. 10:20) H7700 שֵׁד - shêd - shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil. www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-shedimYet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence
(how can it be a monothiesm if there are two creatotr gods? one creating TOV and one creating RA) They live in deserts or ruins (Lev. 16:10; Isa. 13:21; 34:14) They inflict sickness on men (Ps. 91:5–6) They trouble men's minds (Saul; I Sam. 16:15, 23) The Mother of the shedim in the Hebrew Tanak = Lilith (Isa. 13:21; 34:14). A FEMALE AZAZEL (ʿAzʾazel) occurs in the ritual for the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:8, 10, 26) Who is the Chief ArchonTestament of Solomon 6:2 , Beelzebul (not Beelzebub) appears as prince of the demons In Mark 3:22, the scribes accuse Jesus of driving out demons by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons, the name also appearing in the expanded version in Matthew 12:24,27 and Luke 11:15, 18–19. By the power of who - Beelzebul, (the Chief Archon - the father of all the archon - the Beast) Evidently the Rabbis of 30AD knew exactly what they were saying Evidently the First Christians knew exactly what they were saying Why are 21 century Christians so confused? - ROMAN EDIT, empowering satan and deminishing God Using First Century Christian vocabulary - the term used for a bad-guy angel = archon Their leader – the very first archon is called the Chief Archon – who fathered the rest These entities go by many names in many cultures / every culture "A rose by any other name, would still smell as sweet" - Will Shakesphere It does matter what you call them - as long as you are not confused as to cosmology Three times I have asked you about Rev 20 Three times you avoid answering the question
Who is thrown into the Lake of Fire – satan + satan + satan And when satan is thrown in there why is satan already there
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 29, 2020 12:32:16 GMT -5
Gnostic disclaimer
I am not saying The Nag Hammadi Library contains any scripture saying Beelzebul = Chief Archon
This is what I will say – the archon are layered in different ranks – just like a military Just like God’s heavenly host where the Archangel Michael is the military commander
Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities (archon), against the powers(archon), against the world-rulers of this darkness(archon), against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places(archon).
What are the ranks? Privates (the lowest rank) = archon (small a) / Jinn / demons / evil spirits Catholics call these entities “Principalities” Islam call them “Jinn” Jews call them “shedim” Solomon teaches us that each shedim has a specific function – shedim of wind /shedim of bone disease / shedim of lung disease / shedim of dreams / shedims of deception
Both Islam and Jewish theology = 100% Gnostic
Above them in authority Jews have ‘sar’ – the ‘Prince of Persia’ (Dan 10:13-21) – Chuck Missler goes on to explore Prince of America or Prince of China concept – the Prince of Persia has authority over just one nation
Today - The ‘sar’ of Persia might just be Allah- that is an interesting thought (speculation by me) Yesterday – it was an “other god” – who was an archon – bad-guy angel wanting worship
The Lesser Key of Solomon Classified list of the 72 chief spirits of the Goetia, according to rank. #1 on that list = Bael
The Nag Hammadi says – the Chief Archon made offspring- 7 at first – who made 12 – who have 72 domains of their own
Islam says, if you die in Jihad you immediately go to Paradise that has 72 mansions
Don't you see the correlation?
Above them in authority There is the Prince of this world – the price that tempted Jesus in the wilderness
Above them in authority Beelzebul – as far as we know from scripture
Question Is Beelzebul = Chief Archon? Gnostic Answer – maybe /maybe not
Maybe – as far as man knows from the Tanak Beelzebul = the ‘sar’ of the shedim (archon)
Maybe not – Beelzebul might just = the ‘sar’ of earth / or the ‘sar’ of this solar system Above them in authority might be the ‘sar’ of this galaxy / ‘sar’ of this quadrant of the universe / ‘sar’ over just this 3D dimension
To be Gnostic is to understand that reality is so much larger than man or just one lonely planet named earth
Therefore to be Gnostic is to realize that at the top of the authority chain of command for the archon / bad-guy angels / all the ‘sars’ and princes everywhere = the First Archon that fathered the rest – that the Nag Hammadi calls the “Chief Archon”
And to also realize that with limited knowledge it is just to arrogant to calm that Beelzebul = Chief Archon because in a larger reality Beelzebul just might be a General or Captain in the ranks of the Chief Archon
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 17:35:32 GMT -5
Greeting Dave Happy Shabbath Thanks for some new and interesting points, brand new to me Zech 9 about messengers as women, allude to feminine angels You insist the word "beginning" means from the first point is a specific time. Hence Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,. Devil was a murderer from the beginning, This is correct "devil" from the beginning, when Being became Devil. Dave writes: "Jesus says devil – yes the devil functions as a satan – but Jesus did not say satan, He said devil Correct. Devil was a liar from beginning. But devil is not a being, its a functional descriptor of a being. Just as Satan noun is not a being either, its a functional descriptor of a being. Ezekiel 28 says "cherub" - cherub is a description of a being, like "Adam" is a description of humans. And it says "cherub" "sinned", thus the "cherub" changes relationship and becomes a new functional descriptor, a "Devil". No where does Ezek use "devil". No where does Jesus use "cherub". The relationship changes, not the being. Dave writes: "Archon in the Hebrew Tanak = shedim Are you saying the Matthew in 4:8 used "shedim" for "Devil"? can you prove this? I can't find an Hebrew Interlinear on Matthew 4:8, all only show Greek. Shedim does not mean "Demon" anyway. It means "breast". Jeff Benner combines 7699 with 7700, "breasts". Only used twice anyway. Not much context. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/demons-and-demonologyThis is possibly the best fair assessment of the Jewish thought. so I understand your demise. Not much in the OT about the subject. Dave writes: "Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence (how can it be a monotheism if there are two creator gods? one creating TOV and one creating RA) Why do you insist there has to be TWO creator gods, one for TOV and for RA? From my shadow experiment, you do not have to create anything, it's all done by a simply relationship change from you position of power received from the Father of light? no need for a creator at all... it's a relationship change. Please comment on my experiment with shadows. Einstein says RA does not exist on it's own. Ra is simply using less of GOD's power in your life. So why must you insist on two creators? Dave writes:"Three times I have asked you about Rev 20 Three times you avoid answering the question Who is thrown into the Lake of Fire – satan + satan + satan And when satan is thrown in there why is satan already there Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Three beings in this fire. Devil, a fallen cherub, termed opponent of GOD. Beast power who is a chief authority supporting the fallen cherub. False prophet is a side kick supporting the beast power. All three beings, one cherub, the other two human, are thrown into the fire. Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, This verse clearly labels all the descriptor verbs together into one being, that is not named as a being. Who is this being? Ezekiel says "cherub". "dragon" might be a label of some being? Notice the contexts: Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Dragon has angels. So confirms dragon is cherub in Ezekiel. Your theory has archon, which you do not show is clearly an angel. But a byproduct of matter called into existence by the Holy Spirit, speaking dysfunction immediately upon rising as an authority, is not a relationship falls. So archon cannot be an angel? so who is it? a shedim? there is no verse confirming archon as shedim? Your NT use of arche Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities "Greek arche", nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, What is the Hebrew equivalent of Greek arche? Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities "arche", against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places What is the Hebrew equivalent of Greek arche? List OT verses where this Hebrew word is used ? Rev 12:8 uses "dragon" and "malak" messengers, as angels, ie "cherub". What is the Hebrew word for "dragon" ? Which OT verse uses this? Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon "tanniyn" that is in the sea. Jer 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out. The OT uses the term but does not identify the term much. Why does GOD allow archons to come into being? just to test humans with relationship? But the archons have no relationship with GOD? Nor do angels have relationship with GOD. Just robotic servants. angels are good. archons are bad. SO god is a dictator of robotic good and bad servants? Why give humans free will? Was this the first creature to have this? seems so in your theory? Why? Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 29, 2020 20:32:01 GMT -5
But devil is not a being, its a functional descriptor of a being. Just as Satan noun is not a being either, its a functional descriptor of a being. But devil is a noun and never a verb
Ezekiel 28 says "cherub" - cherub is a description of a being, like "Adam" is a description of humans. YES! – The King of Tyer
Dave writes: "Archon in the Hebrew Tanak = shedim Are you saying the Matthew in 4:8 used "shedim" for "Devil"? can you prove this? I can't find an Hebrew Interlinear on Matthew 4:8, all only show Greek. DUH – I will not play your word game – all we have is Greek If the NT was actually written in French it might say something else – BUT IT DON’T
Shedim does not mean "Demon" anyway. It means "breast". Jeff Benner combines 7699 with 7700, "breasts". Only used twice anyway. Not much context. Cherub chata only used once – even less context yet you weigh it over all other scripture
And then you invoke the Robert bias Of course 5000 years of Judaism is incorrect about what their own theology is
Dave writes: "Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence I didn’t write this – Jewish Encyclopedia did But according to Robert Jews do not understand
Re 20:10 Three beings in this fire. Devil, a fallen cherub, termed opponent of GOD. Beast power who is a chief authority supporting the fallen cherub. False prophet is a side kick supporting the beast power. Which one of these = your satan And interesting you have a “Chief Authority” – you know the Greek word for authority = archon
Why does GOD allow archons to come into being? just to test humans with relationship? Why? You answer – why did God send the serpent onto Eve? So far you answer has been – after Eve fell – Ezk 28 happened so the Serpent can exist – so the satan can go back in time to be the serpent for Eve
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 30, 2020 4:22:29 GMT -5
Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon "tanniyn" that is in the sea.
YES!- har made an excellent study of this AHR God of the sea vrs God that is in the sea The Creator vrs a created being The Creator on the one side and the archon on the other One building and supporting - the other wearing down and testing
Why does GOD allow archons to come into being? just to test humans with relationship? I have given you the scripture - God test man to see if we love Him with all our heart and soul God’s words - straight from the Torah But - evidently you doubt God word - over and over you deny God’s word For month you argued that Isa 45:7 was wrong - Now you deny Duet 8:2 and 13:3 The Book of Job is fiction and doesn't deal with theology - how much scripture are you willing to deny? You know only the Catholics say they have the authority to edit scripture Why - did God send the serpent unto Eve, if not to test her? Why - did God place a H342 - איבה - From H340; hostility: - enmity, hatred. between man and the archon?
Jdg 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods (H430 - אלהים - 'ĕlôhı̂ym) shall be a snare unto you.
Lets see - according to you - elohiym can only be the Creator - So - who is this other elohiym - is this one of your other creators Or is this elohiym a false god / an “other god” Why does God allow this? God does this not satan
Aren’t ”other gods” satans? Baal? - they are certainly archon who desire your worship and sacrifice And God calls them elohiym - just like I do Remember ssource of authorship For me personally - God's words mean what they mean
Come on Christian - tell me why dose God do all these things
But the archons have no relationship with GOD? Nor do angels have relationship with GOD. Obedience to your master is NOT a relationship?
Just robotic servants. angels are good. archons are bad. YES! - finally your starting to get it
SO god is a dictator of robotic good and bad servants? Why give humans free will? Every Christian sermon I have heard about this says - God created us for our relationship angels praise God because that is their nature - it is what they were created as and for archon do not praise Gods - instead they test creation - it is what they were created as and for Man was created with the choice which makes the relationship between man and God special Man was created to love God with their hearts and souls - makes that love valuable - genuine
Why does SDA say God created man?
Was (man) the first creature to have this? seems so in your theory? Why? YES! -not my theory but Jewish theology The Rabbi say - man is called - the creature that chooses I have shared this with you before even posted a video about it
And before you answer WHY? Remember this passage Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 4:25:43 GMT -5
Rob writes: "But devil is not a being, its a functional descriptor of a being. Just as Satan noun is not a being either, its a functional descriptor of a being. Dave writes:" But devil is a noun and never a verb.
Rob replies: " I didn't say devil is a noun, I said devil is not a Being word, the word is a functional descriptor of a being. Which you correctly see acting like a verb.
If "Devil" means "Archon" to you, as a Being word, where is the Hebrew text for this? These isn't one, neither is there one for Greek NT. The verses align "devil" with "Satan", but you say Jesus only says "devil" is opposing Jesus, not functioning as an satan-noun to Jesus? So which is it?
Dave writes: "Ezekiel 28 says "cherub" - cherub is a description of a being, like "Adam" is a description of humans. YES! – The King of Tyer
So King Tyre visited the Garden of Eden, walked among the fiery stones of GOD, and was perfect as GOD created Him, until iniquity was found in Him. A human cannot be a cherub, they are different just as a dog is different to a cat.
Dave writes: "Archon in the Hebrew Tanak = shedim Are you saying the Matthew in 4:8 used "shedim" for "Devil"? can you prove this? I can't find an Hebrew Interlinear on Matthew 4:8, all only show Greek.
DUH – I will not play your word game – all we have is Greek.
Rob replies: I spent hours looking for a Matthew Toba version of Matthew 4:8 written originally in Hebrew. NOT GREEK. But I don't read Hebrew. I was asking you for help in reading the Hebrew.
Mat 4:9 “all these things will I give if thou wilt fall down and worship me” Shem Tob “if you bare your head to me” toolong.com/the-hebrew-version-of-matthew-shem-tob-matthew-shem-tov/
Websites like this don't help.
Dave writes: "And then you invoke the Robert bias Of course 5000 years of Judaism is incorrect about what their own theology is
Scripture warns about following traditions and precepts of men, this includes Jews or SDA traditions. We must follow only the Hebrew that is written. You said yourself much of the tanak includes Talmud and Kabbulah. I read only the Hebrew, a smaller version, yes, but it's all I trust. Your welcome to follow others. I don't. I appreciate your view though. Sorry I don't trust man and what man writes. Scripture says it was written as men were moved by the Holy Spirit, so this makes the words special, even rare cases like the one context of cherub chata.
Why do Jews write it off as poetry metaphor? Of course it's poetry, but half of tanak is poetry. So that is written this way for a reason.
King Tyre is a simile of cherub who sinned. This cherub did not sin against man. Man didn't exist back than.
Eze 28:17 I will lay thee before kings,
Which kings? not human kings, because the human kings didn't exist in Eden days. God create Adam as one human king, but refers to kings plural. So who are these kings? not sure. But it's clear the cherub was opposing GOD, as sin is defined to be. Sin is gradual, you were once perfect until iniquity was found in thee.
You have a by product of matter arising and immediately saying I am a God. That's not sin. It's weird for an archon to become evil from birth. This is not how relationships works, you become sinful, not born sinful. Sin must be defined in terms of relationship, not something as sinful matter. Yet the chief archon arises and makes dysfunctional remarks.
Dave writes: "Re 20:10 Rob writes " Three beings in this fire. Rob writes "Devil, a fallen cherub, termed opponent of GOD. Rob writes "Beast power who is a chief authority supporting the fallen cherub. Rob writes "False prophet is a side kick supporting the beast power.
Dave writes: "Which one of these = your satan?
Rob answers: the first one, the one bound for 1000 years and made loose you deceives the world again and is finally thrown into the fire.
Rob asks: "Why does GOD allow archons to come into being? just to test humans with relationship? Why? Dave asks: "You answer – why did God send the serpent onto Eve?
Rob replies: When this cherub sinned, and a war in heaven came into the universe, the chief fallen angel, claimed God the Father was unjust, a dictator.
SO wisdom was called forth, and the Holy Spirit agree to build a universe with the ability for sinning to exist in it. And so Jesus created this universe with the ability for function and dysfunction to exist together, should the king of that universe sin against GOD. These beings called humans who have never seen sinning before, would become law abiding citizens and called as jury members to judgement against Satan who opposes the Father as unjust. God is on trial.
The test in Eden was for a should few years, angels told Adam and Eve of the fallen angels who sin. The Holy Spirit made sure both contestants would stay visibly out of man's view, so the war was fair to both sides.
The fallen angel wants to be like the Most High, it is claimed. This is treason against the Father by an angel. So the angel was allowed to tempt Adam and Eve to sin. Hope this answer your question.
Now you answer mine:
Why does GOD allow archons to come into being? just to allow the sum of chaos to come? This suggests GOD creates both good and bad? What kind of god is this?
Notice when Sin and the Chief Archon is finally destroyed, what kind of universe does the GOD of heaven create? One of good and evil? All over again?
Read Rev 21:
Re 21:1 for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; Re 21:4 ..and there shall be no more death,
Re 21:5 Behold, I make all things new.
Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it:
Re 21:25 for there shall be no night there.
This universe is very different to our current one. Why is that? Why no archons any more? No darkness? No sun, no moon. All things new.
If GOD can do this later, why didn't He create all this for Adam and Eve?
Your theories make GOD less than all powerful. A one off change in relationships based on love, is different, as love by definition involves free will choice. And so love as a relationship went wrong. Once. Sin Scripture says will never arise a second time. Na 1:9
Jesus can say the chief angel was a devil from the beginning because a devil is something you do, not something you are. He became a devil.
Jesus could not say the chief angel was an opponent from the beginning. This chief angel was once perfect. Was once in Eden. And became opposed to GOD.
You say opponent only opposes man, never GOD.
But if men fail to love GOD, and die in hell because of the test, that some being caused the human not to love GOD, that by definition makes the human a sinner, opposing GOD and the agent who caused the man to sin, an accessory to the sin, making the opponent causing the man to sin, also a sinner, and therefore opposing GOD too.
Think about this. My Dad once told me He called me nicknames of abuse to help me grow up loving him more? I could have punched my Dad. Doing dirty love does not make you love your god more. If God is love, than GOD cannot be hate as well.
You didn't comment upon patting the dog on the head and bashing the dog as well, makes the dog growl, not love more? So Job lost all his sons, would love GOD more? Are you kidding? What's the story about? It's about salvation.
What is salvation? Rescuing humans from what? a product of yester ra? Are you kidding? Yashuah and salvation both mean to rescue. Rescue from what? or from whom?
What do the chief archons get out of this evil? nothing. What does the good angel doing opposing humans get out of this? Warning us to fight against archons?
So the Bible says: God made a mistake allowing evil archons into the world, so He sent His Son to die? Why die?
I came to you originally because you claimed to answer the question, why Jesus died, but you never answered this vital question....
Was has archons doing evil got to do with a divine entity dying for humans?
You never answer the question:
Ex 21:22 ¶ If (any Being) strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
This an absolute law of GOD, a judgement arising for "no wounding".
If any being wounds another being with words, his living will end forever. The wounding done to the birthing of that being, cannot be redeemed unless a divine being pays for the eternal condemnation, ie life for life.
This is why Jesus, a divine being, died, to swap his living for our dying, because a "being" caused mischief to the future birthing of humans, through sin.
You seem to think the archons can sexually father children of human origin. From my understanding of GOD creating kinds, only kinds can sexually affect offspring. A archon seems like a different kind to humans? and different to cherub.
Dave notes: "Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence I didn’t write this – Jewish Encyclopedia did.
Rob's reply. So Jewish thought is Ha-Satan was doing as GOD told him. Did God tell Ha-Satan to kill Job's sons? no
But you happily bring up God killing all Egyptian first born during a test on the Egyptians....
Some things one is lost for words... as Paul said, do you have a better GOD to turn to? I am sure there was a reason based on love, not murder.
Dave adds: "But according to Robert, Jews do not understand Rob replies: "We all ponder confusion. At least you are kind enough to show me a different view. Thank you for this sharing. It is appreciated.
Your later post, will I answer tomorrow.
|
|