Much functional: No sign of anything dysfunctional

[Deleted]

If you wander through the Hebrew words in Genesis, during the six days of Creation, the word "tomb" or Jeff Benner translates as "functional", to contrast with the term "ra" meaning "dysfunctional".

You find in nearly every day of Creation, the Lord sees everything He makes as "much functional", ACCORDING to Jeff Benner.

There is not a single hint of anything declared dysfunctional.

IN Gen 2:17 Jeff writes " and~ from~ Tree the~ Discernment Functional and~ Dysfunctional

Notice the contrasting functions of both "tomb" with "ra".

In verse 2:18 we have a slight hint of something not quite functional, but GOD fixes this:

and “YHWH [He exists]” of
“Elohiym [Powers]” said, it is not
functional for the human existing
by himself, I will make for him a
helper such as his opposite,

So the building of  gender female woman out of the gender male male, is also functional.

The first hints of anything becoming dysfunctional is when Adam and Eve both sinned:

in Gen 3:17

and to the human he said, given that
you heard the voice of your woman
and you ate from the tree which I
directed you saying, you will not
eat from him, spitted upon is the
ground on account of you, in your
hardship you will eat of her all of
the days of your life,

KJV translates "arar" as cursed, and Jeff as "spit", but it is the first hint of anything becoming "dysfunctional".

Jews say God created thing functional and dysfunctional in the beginning, but the Genesis account does not say this. The dysfunctional things only came into being after Adam and Eve both sinned.

Therefore "chata" the Hebrew word meaning "missing" implies things dysfunctional are missing things, causing them to be no longer functional, makes sense of these words. Shalom

[Dave]

May 11, 2020 14:11:52 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Jews say God created thing functional and dysfunctional in the beginning, but the Genesis account does not say this. The dysfunctional things only came into being after Adam and Eve both sinned.

Are you suggesting that chôshek is not RA - is not dysfunctional

Mar 17, 2020 19:15:14 GMT -5 Dave said:

Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.

He was good until he expressed the first ‘God-is-not-absolute’ thought

The Gap
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
When did the earth and heaven have no light – before Gen 1:3
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
There were no men yet – but birds (flying things) heavenly beings
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful field was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Jehovah, and before his fierce anger.
All the cities – but not of men – before Gen 1:3

Then the establichment of the choshek
Jer 4:27 For thus saith Jehovah, The whole land shall be a desolation; yet will I not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and I have not repented, neither will I turn back from it.

Yes a lot happened in the Gap – an entire Gen-Rev aeon/age

Then along comes Gen 1:3
And the cycle repeats – as in heaven so on earth

Ecc 1:9 (TLV) What has been is what will be, and what has been done will be done again. There is nothing new under the sun.

Before light (Gen 1:3) - Before man - dysfunction requiring Jehovah's fierce anger

The Catholic paradox
The only reason you cannot accept the entirety of scripture is because God said it was TOV
Choshek is created and dealt with and it was TOV

Remember what the Rabbi said
WWII Holocaust was a RA to its victims – looked like RA to the world – still seems like RA
But it was the biggest TOV for the Jewish People, The Nation of Israel, and God’s plan
½ the Jews of 1940 were martyred for the Lord - TOV
The other ½ rededicated themselves to the Torah - TOV
Resulting in 1948 Israel – TOV
Setting the geo-political stage for end-time prophesies – like Ezk 38, and 47

Jews see and appericiate God's hand in the world - everywhere and in everything
Even in the RA which is designed to help us see and appericiate the TOV

[Deleted]

Dave writes:" Are you suggesting that chôshek is not RA - is not dysfunctional

You got me there Dave, after all we have travelled together. Your right I feel, chosek is not functional, its a simile of sin and arrogance, as your Gnostic quote points out, I like the way you write, GOD makes the dysfunctional chosek, functional; by contrasting it with light, hence the Lord is the light.

Hmmm, I read the verses and see your view now. I will ask GOD for some help on this and get back to you. Shalom

[Dave]

I consider you a friend by now – and will speak to you as a friend
Not to criticize – but to point out a common Roman Christian error
The error of thinking linearly

1- God is in absolute control – His plan is unfolding as he intends
2- During this Age – the Age of the Gentile – our present Age /Aion – our awareness begins with Adam and our Age of the Contest was defined in Gen 3:15
3- The Roman Catholic Mistake is in thinking that this is the only Age / Aion
It is all about man – and the center of man = Rome – and the center of the Universe = earth
It is a mistake to think that the entirety of theology begins with Adam
4- Gnostics see a much larger cosmology – of which man play only one part
Man is the 3D corporeal Contestant in a 10D total reality

Ecc 3:14 (TLV) I know that everything that God does will endure forever. There is no adding to it or taking from it. God has made it so, that they will revere Him. 15 Whatever exists, has already been and whatever will be, has already been, but God recalls what has passed.

Ecc 1:9 (TLV) What has been is what will be, and what has been done will be done again. There is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there anything about which is said, “Look! This is new!”? It was already here long ago, in the ages long before us. 11 There is no remembrance for former things, and things yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.

Question – why do we call science inquiry = research
Why don’t we just call it search?
Because ancient man knew some stuff we don’t understand – and we are looking for their knowledge

[Deleted]

We see Scripture differently Dave. It differs from where "sin" comes from. Sin by definition is "missing God" and hence "ra" or "dysfunctional". "chata", the Hebrew word for "sin" is a verb, and thus reacts between personal Beings. Thus "sin" is a relationship concept.

What I don't like from your Gnostic material is the idea that GOD itself can "sin", is a silly idea, suggesting there "dysfunctional" aspects of Creation GOD Himself cannot control. They just happened to emerge your Gnostic material says. However you say this, it limits GOD to a god who cannot control all dysfunctional things. So for this alone, I have to reject all the Gnostic material, however pleasing parts of it may be. The way you look for good parts of Gnostic material, while rejecting other sentences, makes it hard for others to see it all as "holy" or "special writings from GOD". I guess maybe copyists spoiled it over time, but GOD has seen to the Hebrew, to be far less spoiled over time.

I write as a friend, we have battled for months over this. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For we are all judged by the light GOD gives us.

What I see from Scripture is a commanding angel (cherub) sinned, and began the dysfunctional concept into the universe long before mankind existed. In biological science, the genes can be switched on or off, supposing the DNA information for both function and dysfunction was written down in the DNA, should the free will creature choose "ra" or not. I see the same kind of creation in our physical world too. God designed the universe with "ra" contrasted to "light" from Creation. But why? Because the chief angel that sinned wanted a universe with the ability to do more "Ra" than the previous universal constant GOD created before? Being speculative here, GOD may have many universes, we don't know. The current universal constant with 120 decimals of precision, implies fine tuning for life, for both function and dysfunction. So in this sense GOD is the designer for creating both kinds of existence, but NOT the "Father of RA", as you imply. Jesus called Satan the "Father of Ra", a murderer from the beginning.

It seemed Adam and Eve were created from a need to allow Satan the opponent, space for His kingdom to develop and expand, so other unfallen worlds may watch what "sin" is about. Hence "war in heaven" did not take seconds as you imply. This "war" continues to this day on earth. Did it require a second creator? no. It was programmed into the first Creation by GOD, hence the Scripture says GOD is the Designer of Ra as well as Good.

I remember our battles over the shadow experiment. In a functional and dysfunctional world there are two shadows made by light. The Father does not do RA personally. Such shadows are done by your personal relationship to the Father. A shadow cannot be made by you alone, or by the Father alone, but by a relationship concept.

God foreknew Adam would fall, just as Satan the cherub fell, and undertook to Create a universe capable of both function and dysfunction. What I find strange, is the Creation of the world had "dysfunctional aspects" already in it. This is, the "dark" or "chosek" was an opponent to the "light". Technically "dark" doesn't exist on its own. Einstein said "Dark" does not exist. Dark is the absence of Light. So GOD was Creating Salvation in His Creation, a figure of what GOD is like. God is a simile of light. Dark is a simile of sin, the absence of GOD in your life.

These are some of the things I ponder, though we will not agree. I have found discussing these things with you, has resulted in us coming to know more about GOD than before, so it's been a fruitful discussion. So thanks for being a friend too. Shalom

[Dave]

You are correct - we so dissagree

Jews and Gnostics both say
God is absolute. He is the only Creator, who created everything and shepherds everything according to His plan / His Will – even the ra as scripture tells us

Pro 16:4 (TLV) Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Then Jews and Gnostics also say
Satan is a verb not a noun and is a tool used by God to test His own creation
You demonstrated to me that God was even satan to Balaam
Scripture says God was satan to Israel (1 Chronicles 21:1 -vrs- I Samuael 24:1)

You should read your own words – your Catholicism has you so conflicted

First you say
What I don't like from your Gnostic material is the idea that GOD itself can "sin", is a silly idea, suggesting there "dysfunctional" aspects of Creation GOD Himself cannot control. They just happened to emerge your Gnostic material says.

Then you say
What I see from Scripture is a commanding angel (cherub) sinned, and began the dysfunctional concept into the universe (Catholic Satan)

Isn't this a "dysfunctional" aspects of Creation GOD Himself cannot control?

And - It seemed Adam and Eve were created from a need to allow Satan the opponent, space for His kingdom to develop and expand,

So you have two creator gods and two separate creations and your second creator is the one in control of the plan unfolding in the universe (Catholic Satan)

Catholics elevate satan to a creator godhood - satan is the one responsible for the world being like it is - God is not in contol anymore - God has lost control - even a full 1/3rd of all the angels that God specifically created to worship Him chooses Catholic Satan to be their one true god and follow Satan
Catholic satan big and strong – able to alter God’s will – now that is a silly idea


Catholics give angels the free will to deny god - but deny these same angels the free will to repent
Scripture tells us that even tho they know their own fate and they know full well who Jesus Chist is - they are unable to repent even at the end facing the Lake of Fire - they lack the free will to repent.

Courious - contradictory - yet a necessary exception to make the rest of Feel Good Catholicism hold water

Last comment about "They just happened to emerge your Gnostic material says."
Correction - a deliberate act of creation by the left hand - or an indirect act by the right hand - for a specific cause / to serve a specific purpose - and we are told the reason why

Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi Library
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.

He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.

And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth.

The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library
Now all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety. … it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. 

Even the ra - Isa 45:7
Even the wicked


-

[Deleted]

Good reply Dave, we will have to agree to disagree. The origin of sin, is NOT explained by Scripture, except a cherub sinned as written in Ezekiel 28. Why He sinned, is not explained:

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

That's all it says.

Almost as brief as the Gnostic writing:

He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world,

Except sin is not a contest, its the breaking off relationship with GOD, a serious thing indeed. (assuming cherubs have free will, something we also disagree

You love your wife and kids, has your loving ever been challenged? How did you react, without sinning yourself. This might help explain the predicament GOD was in.


Shalom my friend

[Dave]

May 21, 2020 14:38:07 GMT -5 @robertt said:

the predicament GOD was in.

See how powerful your Catholic Satan is for you - you actually think anything / anyone can stand against - FORCE GOD in a corner - is able to over-ride / corrupt / change God's plan for reality

Jews and Gnostics scoff at the idea - how weak you make The Creator

God always was and always is in absolute control
I just listed a few verses stating that God created the ra and the wicked - in fact God created everything - nothing exist that God didn't creat - even the authorities (archon) / princapalities (archon) - for God

You must reject the bulk of scripture to make the Catholic version satan work

What does this verse mean?

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers (archon) or rulers (archon) or authorities (archon). All was created through Him and for Him.

You state that God didn't create everything - some of it was created by Catholic Satan
You also state that it is not for God - but against God

Your version and the New Testament are in conflict

Isa 45:7 and Prov 16:4 make it clear Your version and the Old Testament are in conflict

Over 5000 years of Judaism - show me one Rabbi that believes in Catholic Satan

[Deleted]

What does this verse mean?

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers (archon) or rulers (archon) or authorities (archon). All was created through Him and for Him.

All the Beings (angels, archons, humans, animals, and other unfallen beings in other worlds) are all created by our Creator GOD.

You miss one thing: Beings next to GOD as a Divine Being, make relationship.

Love is a relationship concept, hence two Beings become relational.

In order to have love work at all, this relationship , relational thing, requires two directions of love:

1) One can remain with love (the two Beings stay together close)
2) One can stay away from love (the two Beings move apart from each other)

Your talking about Creation of Beings. No problem there. I am not talking about Beings. I am talking about Relationship.

Relationship cannot be created. Love cannot be created.

These concepts happen when two Beings do things to each other. Love is a reaction between two or more beings.

For this to happen, the Beings have to have free will, otherwise love doesn't work.


Isa 45:7 speaks about GOD in control over the BEINGS who have relationships that change: there are only two changes possible

1) functional love
2) dysfunctional love

It is not required to create Beings, they are already created. You need only to allow the Beings to function in relationship. To do this, relationship requires the beings to have free will, otherwise there is no love reacting between them.

The Father cannot do dysfunction love to another being, this implies the Father does not want a relationship with you. The Father cannot personally do ra.

Prov 16:4 is speaking about those Beings doing dysfunctional love, require GOD to help them understand his functional love.

Is love created? no, Scripture says for GOD so loved the world, He gave...

Is dysfunctional love created? no. Einstein explains this as man doing things with less of God's love in their lives. In other words there is no such thing as "Evil".
Such a concept is controlled and designed by GOD to exist, as relationship to GOD allows RA to exist.

As the shadow experiment explains, you walk away from GOD, the RA shadows come over you, the relationship to GOD changes. The RA is not made by you solely. The RA is not made by the Father solely. Shadows are relational concepts. Shadows are made when you in relationship are far from the source of light, thus the RA comes into being.


Than you ask :

show me one Rabbi that believes in Catholic Satan.

This phrase has two things "Catholic" and "Satan".

I don't have much understanding of Catholic things.
The word "satan" in Hebrew means "opponent" in every case the word is used, never a friend.

Yet you use the term in Job, as a friend to GOD. This violates the Hebrew meaning.

God was an opponent to Baalim, is correct. Baalim was a Being who opposed GOD.
So GOD became Being to Baalim and opposed him back. This context explains how the Hebrew word "satan" should be used.

Does "Satan" the noun, "oppose" GOD? Let's see:

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Who is this father, a devil from the beginning? Does it oppose only man, or also GOD?

Mt 4:1 ¶ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Here the same word "Devil" is used in the context against Jesus.

Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him,

It is clear from this passage, Devil asked Jesus to worship Him. Why? And why does Jesus call Him "satanas the noun"? Obviously this devil is opposing the Son of GOD, and the Father, because he wanted humans to worship Him, something we humans should only do to GOD the Father.

Isn't this clear as a passage? Shalom

But Dave has the Father allowing an archon to come into Being by itself, becoming dysfunctional o it's own? And an angel volunteering to control this archon the Father allowed to come into being?

Such a theory has a Being already dysfunctional being created by the Father. This supposes the Father is both a hater and a lover, because the Father created a dysfunctional Being.

But during creation, the YWHW says all things were created functional, not also dysfunctional, though there are hints that chosek was allowed as a contrast to light, there is no hint in Creation of any Being created dysfunctional. You  rely on Gnostic writings for that.

Its says in Scripture GOD is love. God cannot be a god of hate also. You have to find other answers to this problem, but you do not look, as Scripture shows things differently.

Your Gnostic writings have a created dysfunctional being.

The Hebrew scriptures do not have any created dysfunctional being.

The Scriptures explain "love gone wrong" in this way:

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 , and thou hast sinned:

The cherub was created functional. The relationship changed. Shalom

[Dave]

May 22, 2020 17:55:30 GMT -5 @robertt said:

What does this verse mean?

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers (archon) or rulers (archon) or authorities (archon). All was created through Him and for Him.

All the Beings (angels, archons, humans, animals, and other unfallen beings in other worlds) are all created by our Creator GOD.

I am confused – do you argree that God created all the archon
Or – just the unfallen beings?

If God didn’t created all the demons in hell – who did?
All Catholics require more creation – but supply no source3

Then I asked -show me one Rabbi that believes in Catholic Satan.
This phrase has two things "Catholic" and "Satan".
I don't have much understanding of Catholic things.
The word "satan" in Hebrew means "opponent" in every case the word is used, never a friend.

BOO – you know exactly what I mean
Show me any Rabbinic scholar that – over the last 5000 years – who thinks Exk 28 has anything to do with you satan
Catholics – invented this theology around 365 AD

I begged you for months to show me one verse from the Tanak or the Talmud to support the catholic theology that satan is God’s opponent

Jan 29, 2020 16:23:50 GMT -5 Dave said:

Dec 27, 2019 16:33:38 GMT -5 @robertt said:

So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough
So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD?
Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture?

This thread was started to explore who does satan oppose / accuse
I have dealt with my 49 verses
I have answered your 23 verses
Why do you refuse to go through each line and explain to me how each line represents a satan that is anti-God or opposes God – or even disobeys God

You don’t because you Can’t – because satan is not God’s opponent
Satan is God’s obedient servant helping God facilitate God’s plan

Please prove to me that satan is God’s opponet – here are the verses

And your answer is

All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, Ezek 28.

At least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter what it says – it must conform to Catholic doctrine

Does "Satan" the noun, "oppose" GOD? Let's see:

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Who is this father, a devil from the beginning? Does it oppose only man, or also GOD?

Man – show me a passage from the Tanak telling of the devil murdering other angels or heavenly beings
Cain killed Able – and it continues with man – it is all a part of the Contest

Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him,

It is clear from this passage, Devil asked Jesus to worship Him. Why? And why does Jesus call Him "satanas the noun"? Obviously this devil is opposing the Son of GOD, and the Father, because he wanted humans to worship Him, something we humans should only do to GOD the Father.

Wrong – this passage clearly shows that Jesus was tempted fully as any other human
If Jesus did not walk a human walk – then His sacrifice is less that perfect
The contest measures how we endure the pain of reality – just as Jesus did
If Jesus would have had it any different than any of us – it would spoil His message

If your catholic satan is God’s opponent – why didn’t satan fight with Jesus – try to kill Jesus
In fact – he didn’t even try to trick Jesus – worship me as the common man would – that is the test – that is the Contest

The Hebrew scriptures do not have any created dysfunctional being.

Only if Catholic OT = the sum of Hebrew scriptures – it doesn’t
Isn't your satan a dysfunctional being? - so confusing
Are evil spirit dysfunctional? They are in the catholic KJV OT
Lillith is there – night shades are there - the serpent was in existance before Eve ate of the fruit
Who created them?

Scripture says God was satan to Israel (1 Chronicles 21:1 -vrs- I Samuael 24:1)
Is your KJV OT wrong? - are the authors of the KJV OT wrong?
Or is God actually satan? Or is satan actually God?
Or isn't it very clear that satan is a good and faithful servant of the Lord doing God's dirty work
Just like tyhe story of Job

[Deleted]

Dave asks me to read of some Jew with a view of Satan as an adversary or opponent:

Website writes: "The entire Book of Job, he writes, is fictional, intended merely to elucidate certain truths about divine providence. And even if it is true, Maimonides continues, certainly the portion in which God and Satan speak with each other is merely a parable.

www.myjewishlearning.com/article/satan-the-adversary/

Rob writes: "Maimonides claims the entire Book Of Job is fictional.

 Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: (KJV)

Than a literal redeemer is fictional too?


Website writes: "Satan makes many appearances in the Talmud. A lengthy passage in the tractate Sanhedrin accords Satan a central role in the biblical story of the binding of Isaac. According to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, it was Satan that caused the Jewish people to despair of Moses returning from Mount Sinai by showing them an image of the prophet on his deathbed.

Rob writes: "Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi writes of Satan causing the Jewish people to sin? You can read the source link but not copy and paste it.

Website writes: "A passage in the tractate Megillah says that Satan dancing at the party of the Persian King Ahasuerus is what led to the killing of Queen Vashti in the Purim story.

Rob writes: "This website speaks of Satan as a person affecting Jewish people??

Dave writes: "I am confused – do you argree that God created all the archon
Or – just the unfallen beings?

If God didn’t created all the demons in hell – who did?

Rob writes: "God created all the angels, all the bad ones were once perfect and good, they became bad, by changing their relationship to GOD. A demon is just a functional description for a cherub or angel.

Dave writes" I begged you for months to show me one verse from the Tanak or the Talmud to support the catholic theology that satan is God’s opponent

Rob writes: "I would have to read Jewish Kabbalah and Talmud sources and Jewish material. Do you have any website that offers such material for free online reading? JSTOR and other sites require money. Are there any Messenic Jewish websites that offer perhaps a different viewpoint to classical Jewish thought?

Dave writes: "All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, Ezekiel 28. At least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter what it says

Rob writes: "Do we agree "satan" the Hebrew word as a verb means to "oppose" or be an opponent, in every case? The "Satan" hebrew word as a noun, must also have a similar meaning, one who oposes or is an opponent,
so I read all the lines, all the verses, and this is what I see.

But you disagree?

Are you swayed by a majority of verses, rather than all verses? Even in Job, "Satan" has to be an opponent, not a friend of GOD, otherwise the other verses are also friends, but clearly this can't be, so the word has to have one meaning for all contexts.

One must find another reason why Satan the opponent acted according to God's will in Job?

Doesn't a Christian get protection from the adversary or opponent? Is this not why Satan has to do as his told, He is being contrained by GOD all the time. But if the man chooses to walk away from GOD, the contraining protection relaxes, and Satan wounds them.

Dave writes: "Man – show me a passage from the Tanak telling of the devil murdering other angels or heavenly beings

Rob writes: " Jesus was both a Man and God in one body wasn't He? Did Satan lead the humans to kill the Son of GOD? There is one evidence right there? Jesus is a heavenly being. Satan murdered this heavenly being.

Dave writes: "If your catholic satan is God’s opponent – why didn’t satan fight with Jesus – try to kill Jesus

Rob writes: " Christian believers receive protection from the Opponent.

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?

God offers protection:

De 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
39 ¶ See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

When did Satan murder God's Son? When GOD forsaked His Son.

Ps 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from Yashuah, and from the words of my roaring?

What do Jews mean by saying this verse?

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

A Man cannot be a GOD, explain the Jewish thinking for me Dave.

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:

So who is allowing Jesus to be murdered? The Father is... why? There must be another power from above opposing the Father?

Joh 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

Why is Jesus a King? Where did this come from? The Father, the Ancient of Days, gave His Son earth to be His kingdom and to be a king. How does a king reign over a kingdom? by battling with the king of earth.
Is there a king of earth? yes

 Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Who is this King of Earth, Jesus fights over by dying without sinning in his Kingdom? This king had to get this king to sin, than the kingdom would be forever his. Two kings battle it out.

One king asks the other king to worship him. Nothing to do with man. You made no comment on this.

Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Now this devil, opponent, is not man, Jesus is not man. They are both kings. One is king of earth. One is king of heaven, given earth to be his kingdom. Adam was king of earth, but lost his crown to satan, who is now king.

Jesus comes as a man to become king of earth again. He has to battle over this angel, devil, satan.

We are commanded only to worship GOD, not archons, angels or devils, or other gods.

Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

One has to read who is the real king of authority behind Caesar? Is this king a man? no the king is a fallen angel.

So to explain this, the Scriptures show a Caesar type man called King Tyre.

And the metaphor shows similes to another King behind King Tyre.

A cherub who sinned, becoming King of Humans, after Adam sinned.

So sin doesn't just mean "missing" it also means changing from one king to another king. Does Scripture allude to this idea? yes

Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;

Why does sin cause a death penalty?

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Whose doing the death here? Prince of this world... But why?

Joh 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

This alludes to Creation, where light is contrasted to dark.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

It's very clear Jesus is not fighting a human king, but a heavenly king, to save the world by dying sinless under this king.

Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Is this king opposing just Jesus as a king of man, or a king over all the universes as well. If the king of earth could get Jesus to sin under his kingom, than the king of earth would have his kingdom forever. It would never end.
So the war is not just about man, its about the Father and the angel who claims to be king of earth.

Joh 13:31 ¶ Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Again this King is not fighting over man, but a king of this world, the king was sent to glorify GOD.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

Again this shows this King who dies without sinning under the king of earth, is not about man per se, but higher than man, it's about the Father doing the battle over this claim of being a king.

Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Again the king of earth is judged by Jesus a king of earth, regaining the kingdom Adam lost. It's not a battle over man, by man for man. It's a battle over the angel who sinned who claims to be king, and is also the king of death, for all who live under this king, will die.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Why does Jesus call "Satan" a father of all murders, a father of all liars?

Dave writes: "Isn't your satan a dysfunctional being? - so confusing

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

This angel was perfect until the angel began sinning. Thus a relationship changed.

Dave notes problems in Hebrew writing:

1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

There are two kings here, and therfore three relationships.

Relationship of the two kings to each other "satan" they are opponents.
Relationship of King Angel to David, only when David sins, and hops over to this king as his ruler over him.
Relationship of GOD as king of David, when David hops over to obey GOD as ruler over him.
Did David sin before he was moved to number Israel?

2 Samual 23: 12 and the LORD wrought a great victory.

  15 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!

What sin is this?

Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
David forgot His Lord, and self reigned in his heart.

SO:

2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled

The relationship became spoiled...

another relationship was strengthened

And Satan stood up against Israel

And the sinner made more sinning:

provoked David to number Israel.

That's how I see this passage Dave.

Dave writes: "Or isn't it very clear that satan is a good and faithful servant of the Lord doing God's dirty work

Read all the passages about this topic, as I have shown you in John. It causes a change in view. But Jews do not read the NT, the latter torah of YHWH, do they, hence their darkness in the former torah of the OT.

Yet there are hints of kings over battles with humans:

Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
both noun and verb form of satan in verse 1

why does GOD rebuke the opponent, if it's a friend...no friend...it's an opponent of GOD...why battle over a high priest? a simile of Jesus as high priest, that's why.

Zec 3:8 ¶ Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Is this battle only over man, or kings in heavenly places? How does GOD remove the iniquity of that land in one day? by dying sinless under the king of sin and death. Is there a king of sin and death? There has to be, otherwise this verse makes no sense. Who makes this claim? The LORD YHWH KING of ARMIES does, which armies? the armies of angels.

Dave writes: "Or isn't it very clear

Scripture is hidden for a reason, written in poetry, figures and parables. Over half of torah is poetry as Jeff Benner says. It's clear if you dig out every line upon line, and all the other words that link. Like I show you here.

Shalom

[Dave]

Dave asks me to read of some Jew with a view of Satan as an adversary or opponent:
Rob writes: "Maimonides claims the entire Book Of Job is fictional.

Actually – most Rabbi think the book of Job not to be about an individual man – but the book of Job is a composite of the archetypical man – living the archetypical human souljourn – trapped with a contest of forces that are way beyond Job’s control – both on the ground and from the spiritual realm

I agree with the majority - not fiction – but archetypical
Perhaps the thoughts of Moses about his own experience
In the story of Job – God orders the hit – and satan, God’s servant, did the task – obeying the limits set by God

Forget Job – I will still stand by the rest of scripture – beginning with the Tanak

Website writes: "Satan makes many appearances in the Talmud. A lengthy passage in the tractate Sanhedrin accords Satan a central role in the biblical story of the binding of Isaac. According to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, it was Satan that caused the Jewish people to despair of Moses returning from Mount Sinai by showing them an image of the prophet on his deathbed.

Rob writes: "Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi writes of Satan causing the Jewish people to sin?

Correct – this is satan’s job / function – to cause man to sin – correct
Man’s opponent

Dave writes" I begged you for months to show me one verse from the Tanak or the Talmud to support the catholic theology that satan is God’s opponent

Rob writes: "I would have to read Jewish Kabbalah and Talmud sources and Jewish material. Do you have any website that offers such material for free online reading? JSTOR and other sites require money. Are there any Messenic Jewish websites that offer perhaps a different viewpoint to classical Jewish thought?

BS – all you need is the Tanak – even without Job
You claim to be a Hebrew expert and demand that all Hebrews must think as you do – they don’t

Dave writes: "All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, Ezekiel 28. At least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter what it says

Rob writes: "Do we agree "satan" the Hebrew word as a verb means to "oppose" or be an opponent, in every case? The "Satan" hebrew word as a noun, must also have a similar meaning, one who oposes or is an opponent,
so I read all the lines, all the verses, and this is what I see.

Yes – we agree satan means to oppose / accuse / hinder
But Honestly – you have a preconceive idea in your head – that Idea was fathered by the Catholic Church. Even tho you are an x-SDA, you are still of a Protestant background, which is just diluted Catholic doctrine

So everything you read – must conform to what you think it says
In each verse we discussed – satan is man opponent and God’s faithful servant – each and every time

Doesn't a Christian get protection from the adversary or opponent? Is this not why Satan has to do as his told, He is being contrained by GOD all the time. But if the man chooses to walk away from GOD, the contraining protection relaxes, and Satan wounds them.

YES! – Christians are men and need protection from their opponent satan – satan’s job / function is to come between creation and God – therefore between man and God

Dave writes: "Man – show me a passage from the Tanak telling of the devil murdering other angels or heavenly beings

God offers protection: De 32:37 - if satan is not our opponent then why do we need protection from him – answer = satan = anti-man NOT anti-God

So who is allowing Jesus to be murdered? The Father is... why? There must be another power from above opposing the Father?

I begged for scripture from the Tanak – so you use NT scripture to make your point
Who allowed it – GOD! – absolutely nothing happens with His consent – He is always in control

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

OK – prince / sar / archon of this world – yes, I agree

Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

YES! – Jesus was tempted / tested just like every other man – YES! Praise the Lord
This is the same test we all face – worship satan / creation / mammon / wealth / success / pride / fame – all the world has to offer – or walk through that narrow gate to salvation just like Jesus demonstrated is totally possible
Even you say - We are commanded only to worship GOD, not archons, angels or devils, or other gods.

One has to read who is the real king of authority behind Caesar? Is this king a man? no the king is a fallen angel. prince / sar / archon
So to explain this, the Scriptures show a Caesar type man called King Tyre.
Agreed
And the metaphor shows similes to another King behind King Tyre.
A cherub who sinned, becoming King of Humans, after Adam sinned.
YES! – a metaphor – that is what all the Rabbis say

So sin doesn't just mean "missing" it also means changing from one king to another king. Does Scripture allude to this idea? yes

OK- sin is not seeking the one true Creator – but something less (which is a created thing)
SIN = CHOICE – choose God or not – this not does not have to be satan or any archon – but anything that is NOT the one true Creator – it is simply the job of satan and all the archin to manke all these other things seem more attractive than God – that is why they are known as deceivers
Momentary pleasure / gratification vrs eternal happiness

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Whose doing the death here? Prince of this world... But why?
Satan / sar / prince / archon never kill you directly (not allowed) – he uses another man to do it – Cain and Able / war / discontentment / greed

It's very clear Jesus is not fighting a human king, but a heavenly king, to save the world by dying sinless under this king.
YES! – the archon

Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
YES! – Jesus knew what was to happen / God knew what was to happen - it was God’s Will
What was it you said – “So who is allowing Jesus to be murdered? The Father is...”
To facilitate God’s will, satan, God’s faithful servant, satan, came upon Judas

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Bingo – if he was a murder from the beginning – how does yur NT coenside with you catholic doctrine

Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cheruv. I placed you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among stones of fire. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.

Thank you for the validation – the devil / beast / Chief Archon sinned with his very first thought – as the Gnostics demand

How can your cherub be perfect yet a murderer from the beginning with no truth

Dave writes: "Isn't your satan a dysfunctional being? - so confusing

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

This angel was perfect until the angel began sinning. Thus a relationship changed.

Which scripture is correct Ezk 28:15 or Joh 8:44
You cannot have it both ways

Why does Jesus call "Satan" a father of all murders, a father of all liars?

You offer scripture speaking of the devil – then force it it apply to your satan
Jesus calls the devil “a father of all murders, a father of all liars!”
It is true that you can always call the devil a satan because of function – but jesus was specifically speaking of the devil (Chief Archon – who was created by the left hand and whose very first thought was sinful – from the very beginning as Jesus declares – not later as the catholic Church teaches)

Dave notes problems in Hebrew writing:
1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
There are two kings here, and therfore three relationships.
No – one King (the one true Creator) and one prince / sar / archon / satan
2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled– YES! – Israel CHOSE INCORRECTLY (sin)
The relationship became spoiled... another relationship was strengthened
And Satan stood up against Israel – YES! – Israel turned from God
And the sinner made more sinning: - YES! – this is the job / function of the archon
provoked David to number Israel. – YES! – provoked / talked into / suggested – never forced (not allowed, the choice always lays with man)

God angered – and His good and faithful servant, satan, did the deed

That's how I see this passage Dave. – so why do we disagree?

Zec 3:1 and 2
why does GOD rebuke the opponent, if it's a friend...no friend...it's an opponent of GOD...why battle over a high priest? a simile of Jesus as high priest, that's why.

Isn’t this a metaphore of Christ?
Joshua is a sinner – for we are all sinners
When you are judged – you are going to be judged as a sinner – for we are all sinners
At judgment – it is satan’s job to accuse us – to oppose us – to point out all our sin

Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Speaking to Joshua – not to God – whose angel? – The Angel of the Lord reminds Joshua that salvation is only for the obedience -

But God introduces the BRANCH = Jesus Christ
Zec 3:8 ¶ Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9… and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Don’t all Christians see this passage the same?
It isn’t about the Branch and forgiveness – but it is about satan disobeying / fighting against / opposing God?

Scripture is hidden for a reason, written in poetry, figures and parables. Over half of torah is poetry as Jeff Benner says. It's clear if you dig out every line upon line, and all the other words that link.

I do not disagree that satan means opponent – but you do not consider context or the weight of all scripture - no matter the verse you must alter it some how to support the Catholic satan view - clearly satan’s function is to oppose man and the salvation process for man – to keep man stuck in this world and too busy to consider the next world

This is the Contest - Gen 3:15 alive and well

Too busy to remember – what we know instinctively since birth – but have forgotten

[Richard]

May 24, 2020 19:05:34 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Website writes: "The entire Book of Job, he writes, is fictional, intended merely to elucidate certain truths about divine providence. And even if it is true, Maimonides continues, certainly the portion in which God and Satan speak with each other is merely a parable.

Rob writes: "Maimonides claims the entire Book Of Job is fictional.

Becareful denying scripture to support any doctrine is dangerous
Regardless if Job was real or not, the Book of Job is scripture, God's word.

[Dave]

May 24, 2020 19:05:34 GMT -5 @robertt said:

"The entire Book of Job, he writes, is fictional, intended merely to elucidate certain truths about divine providence. And even if it is true, Maimonides continues, certainly the portion in which God and Satan speak with each other is merely a parable.

Parables elucidate certain truths about God divine providence.

Providence: noun
the protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power.
"they found their trust in divine providence to be a source of comfort"
Similar: fate, destiny, kismet, God's will, divine intervention, predestination, predetermination
God or nature as providing protective or spiritual care.

"I live out my life as Providence decrees"

People also ask
What is an example of Providence?
noun. The definition of providence is preparations for the future, frugal management, or divine power. Homesteaders saving food in cans for the winter is an example of providence. Managing a large family on a small budget is an example of providence.

God’s Will or God’s plan for creation – God is in absolute control - no one else

What is the parable of Job?
God says to satan – look at Job he has become a Christian, a follower of YHWY, a lover of the Lord
God says to satan – test Job to see if it is true

Then satan, God’s servant, obeys God – does exactly what God tells him to do – test Job
AND – satan was given guidelines and/or limits to obey – and satan obeyed those limits

Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?

Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

God tests His creation – YES!
God test man – YES!

BUT

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God does not do the testing / tempting / corrupting / harming / ra Himself – he has a staff for that function – that function is called satan – the opponent / accuser

What is the rest of Job’s parable?
Those who remain faithful – those who truly love God with all their heart and soul – those who believe = will be redeemed

Gnostic / Jewish
Job was once a soul in heaven in full awareness of the Lord
Job was in relationship with the Creator in the womb
But after birth – carnal desire gets in the way of that relationship and we all begin to forget
As a man - Job is souljourning his way through the corporeal CONTEST called life
Hunger, pain, cold, disease, killing animals to eat, slaughter, grinding your own grain
Life is hard and painful – yet Job recognized / remembered the reality of God the Creator

Job moves toward God / toward piety = therefore satan makes the CONTEST personal
When you up your game – the opposition ups their game – the CONTEST raises to a new level
Why? - Deu 13:3 … for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

At the end – Job / as we all will - returns to God to be judged

As it is in written in Zec 3 satan will be right there opposing us / accusing us of sin – that is his function
But – with the BRANCH (Christ) – God can just tell satan to shut up and sit down (rebuked)
The BRANCH (Christ) covers / washes away / cleanses / forgives our sin / debt paid / debt canceled

As you point out relationships are a two way street

If we remain faithful to the Lord – regardless of the CONTEST / regardless of what satan throws our way – He will remain faithful to us

Faith – your support – if we support the Lord / He supports us
And we can trust in that because God is absolute – is in absolute control – it is His plan for us – it is His plan for creation and there is no such this as another super god being that has the free will to alter God’s plan / alter God’s Will – both IMPOSSIBLE and ridicules

[Deleted]

Dearest Dave, you write so well, but it is also confusing and self contradictory.

I thank you for sharing your deepest thoughts with me, because your view helps to broaden my own mind and see other points of view.

Dave writes: "God does not do the testing / tempting / corrupting / harming / ra Himself – he has a staff for that function – that function is called satan – the opponent / accuser

Then satan, God’s servant, obeys God – does exactly what God tells him to do – test Job
AND – satan was given guidelines and/or limits to obey – and satan obeyed those limits

Notice a problem here:

1) how can a word that means opponent, BUT also mean friendly servant?
2) God doesn't do Ra, as you say, God has a department to do the Ra for Him?

1) Now scholars love words to have multiple meanings, so they change the meaning of the word to suit different context. They call it polysemy. Problem is, I don't believe in polysemy, whereas scholars do. Polysemy is the result of the decay and corruption of language from sin. Originally when GOD spoke and men wrote His language, it would have been pure, picture based words. We call this the Hebrew Edenic language. Every letter was a picture based idea enabling Adam to speak new Hebrew words rapidly and thus name the animals as GOD showed him.

But you have GOD creating dysfunctional things from Eden times. I don't see this at all. There is a hint darkness alludes to sin already being in the universe, and thus an opposing angel commander with millions of opposing angels were already in existence sinning against God. Nevertheless GOD created our universe functional, but warned Adam of the adversary or opponent. God has dark (something that technically does not exist) to contrast His light. This tells us the world was designed for falling should Adam, the king of this universe, should fall.

So no where can a word become polysemy. However since men wrote Scripture, there are some examples of polysemy in scripture, but it's not as common as scholars allude.

 For example Jeff Benner says ab means fruit or father. I don't see this.
I see the noun form and verb form of ab, meaning "provider" for all contexts. Jeff Benner taught me about verb and noun forms, but lacks conviction to follow his own discoveries, because he has to fit into the world with popularity among other scholars. I don't follow other scholars. If noun and verb words really mean the same thing, than we should write them as this, all the time.

Jeff writes chata as "err" and chataah as "Error". This is a good approach.
I prefer chata as "sin" and chataah as "Sin-offering".

Jeff writes satan-verb as "oppose" and satan-noun as "opponent".
This is perfect. I agree with him. The verb is an uncomplete action and the noun a complete action, but both words must have similar meanings.

This means all the contexts of 7853 and 7854 have to be the same.

Ps 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.

Here is a parallel verse linking contrasts:

ra is opposite to towb
satan is opposite to those who follow towb.

Every context of satan has to be a picture of ra, doing the opposite of good.

I see your problem Catholic fixed idea that Satan is an angel doing all the bad opposing GOD, but that is a simplistic approach.

Contexts show GOD himself can oppose bad people, forcing them to do good.
How can God do this? Because God is bigger than humans.

Can God also force other wicked opposing beings to work within limits God sets?
Well if God opposes Baalim and forces him to bless Israel, surely God can force a fallen angel to work within limits.

Think for a minute, what would happen if the "work within limits" was removed from the face of the earth? If God allowed the "opponent" full unrestrained power?

Is there a Scripture for this?

Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The Holy Spirit restrains the Opponent from hurting earth. But GOD allows the Opponent full power to do as He likes in a future time. Once all redeemed are marked, the wicked are left to die. The salvation cup is full.


2) So the judge would say, so you didn't murder your child, the bullet did. The gun caused the bullet to murder the child. You didn't make the gun, some other human did. This excuse might work if the human had no free will, and was doing things without thinking. But humans have free will to choose. So your Department idea is an excuse.

Do animals have free will? Take the parrot? Is it just a dumb living machine responding to DNA limits of function, with instinct ? Alex the African Grey Parrot, was a parrot to prove to the world parrots have "free will" intelligence, love and compassion as a 4 year old child does.
In fact every animal has free will, and the ability to do and think and be in God's world, it's just only humans are saved by God's kindness. Plants too have memory according to some studies.

Yet somehow you have all angels as robotic servants. If that is the case since they have no free will, the free will to do RA in some contest, has to come from GOD Himself, so your statement is very confusing and conflicting.

Love requires free will, in all things that live, otherwise it's not truly living with love. The good angels do for GOD is because they love GOD, fully.

Than you raise another contradictory statement:

As you point out relationships are a two way street.

Why do we need an opponent to test our love relationship? I do not understand this need? I understand it if your lukewarm, and not fully in love with God, so God spits you out of your mouth, your hopping over to do ra. But if your fully committed to love God, and do good, there is no need for a further test. No need for testing period.

Was there a test in the Garden for Adam and Eve? Yes, only one. Eating the wrong fruit. This proves sin was already in God's dominion, long before Adam sinned. Have you considered this? The only reason for testing, is to see if the free will wants to fully love GOD or not. And this allows an opponent room to test God's love. If there was no opponent, there would have been no Tree of Good and Evil.  Have you considered this?

Technically relationships are NOT a two way street. My wife wants my love to be perfect, unconditional and friendly ALL the time. God wants the same. Either you love GOD fully, or you don't. That is a one way street concept. There is no choice to choose or hop somewhere else. Your loving will seem to become robotic (your words) over time.

So this "proving" contexts you raise, is because people do not love God fully, they hop between two masters. But you have both masters on the same side of God.
It can't be like this. Sin is not something we do under GOD. Sin is something we do that opposes GOD. Yet you suggest testing helps us love GOD more? Let me tell you it doesn't.

If GOD tested me daily, as an abusive does, loves me, tests me, loves me, tests me. This is abusive and I would eventually hate GOD. Your whole point of view is flawed. Satan gets me to sin because Satan hates me, and hates God and hates the weak force called love.

Every time some your so called servant of GOD tests you to do ra, is really making you do ra for a selfish reason, it cannot be GOD's design to see if you love Him or not.

If you fully love GOD, why need further testing? You don't. So your idea of testing by some department is flawed.

Job is a figure of the 144,000, who live on earth fully loving GOD as Job did. When the restrains of the opponent are removed, all hell will break out on earth, and this COVID19 thing is a small glimpse of this idea. The 5G towers are all designed to kill humans as well as give them a luxury download. The humans are not tested, its not a contest, it's plain murder to them.

Once the sealing is complete, notice:

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Massive chunks of earth is going to be nuclear wiped out, millions will die?
Is this a contest? Hardly. It's plain murder.

Satan hates GOD. Pure and simple. He lost His king title and kingdom when a sinless human died under his kingdom from heaven. Jesus is king of earth.
Two kings locked in battle. You don't mention this idea. A war has opposing sides and opposing's kings in battle.

So when it says war in heaven, who was fighting who? Jesus and Satan, both had armies of angels. Same battle on earth. Not a six second war as you claim, but its been going on for six thousand years. Why does the war need to be so long? I suppose GOD wants to save as many as He can, for jury duty.

Jury duty? Yes. A universal judgement against whom? The angel who sinned and all the angels who fell with him.

Dave writes :Faith – your support – if we support the Lord / He supports us

YES absolutely correct. YES. Well written. I fail in doing this daily. I don't need a Satan to trip me up. I am already with propensities that trip me up. I fail daily not fully loving God as I should. Once I become fully loving God as Job achieved, do I need further testing? No I don't. So why did Job can tested? Because God wrote Job for us, the 144,000 people who will add to the Job experience in the last days.

Suppose your little daughter who loves you daily, gets a negative test from you, her Dad. If you do it daily, after a while your testing will question her love, your testing will put her love out and make her hate her Dad. Try this on a dog, pat it daily on the head, but also whack it on the head so it whims. After a few days of doing this, the dog growls in anger because it no longer loves you. You have made the dog, a slave, not a free love response from a dog, who, by the way, has a free will, to love you with intelligence. The reason we get testing at all, is because we have not fully surrendered to GOD. And the testing is not testing anyhow, its an opponent who hates GOD and hates love as a force. Love is a weak force Satan says, and thus hates love. Force, control and killing is a stronger force in Satan's world; so the strong survive and the weak perish.

But in God's world the weak live forever and the strong will perish. ( a deliberate pun on "will" both noun and verb forms intended

Shalom my friend
Thanks for your discussion and showing me your point of view
Even though it's different from mine, I pray to God that it doesn't affect our relationship standing to GOD, for we are judged by the light we live by.