Robert's Proof

[Dave]

Dave "Absolute made up nonsense
They are not of the same root – they are not even from the same language
Your desire to play word games across languages is error
"Rob" Are you saying Dave, pistis is not a related word to pisteuo?

So honest – is that what I said?
Greek pistis and Hebrew amanuah do NOT share the same root

You do not use a dictionary – you say anumah means to support (your definition)

G4103 – πιστός – pistos - From G3982; objectively trustworthy; subjectively trustful: - believe (-ing, -r), faithful (-ly), sure, true.
G3982 – πείθω – peithō - pi'-tho - A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false)

I use a dictionary and to support something - is not the same a belief in the truth
Billions have anumah that Allah is the creator – it is not pistos in the truth

pistis is the same meaning as amanuah.
Their meaning might overlap but are NOT 1 to 1 equivalent
The Greek word G4103 – πιστός – pistos – include an element of trust
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Dave" Yes – we hate our bodies – that continually drag us into (yester ra)
Yes – I want to out of my body and home with God – but I am stuck here in 3D physical creation
ROb" You see our bodies inherited with yester ra, even as a sinless being?

Who is a sinless being - Romans 3:10-12,Psalm 14:1-3,Psalm 53:1-3  
All men sin – there are none righteous – no not even one

You do not understand a sinless being had no yester ra within him.
Sure angels are not made of 3D corporeal biology – they have no (yester ra)

Eve then Adam – both gave into (yester ra)

Even Jesus Christ expressed his (yester ra)

Mat 26:37  And He took along Peter and Zebedee’s two sons, and He began to be sorrowful and troubled. 
Mat 26:38  Then He tells them, “My soul is deeply grieved, even to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with Me.” 
Mat 26:39  Going a little farther, He fell face down and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me! Yet not as I will, but as You will.” 

You do not under stand our bodies become condemned once we sin.
Absolutely – our bodies are condemned to muth muth
To die as all animals do – the Tree of Life was withheld
To die spiritual death in the Lake of Fire – which is the second death

Dave" No such thing – 3D physical creation comes with entropy
Rob" Can't you imagine a heavenly body without RA or entropy or yester ra in it, Dave?

No – I am bound by God’s Laws that govern physical creation Dave" We will be changed – not sure what we will be – but we will be changed like Him

Rob" Ac 1:11 ...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Can't you understand this text Dave. Jesus has in heaven the body he had on earth, but without RA or yester ra in it.

Yep – he was changed – he was no longer 3D physical
He could appear and dispensary – walk through walls
He was an Ethereal being appearing in 3D form

Rob" PP" DId not the Opposer kill Job's children, bring death upon them?
Dave" Nope – other men did – all the archon can do is suggest and tempt
Rob" If that were true, God would have no need to say the the Opposer, but spare Job's life.
Correct – God forced your satan to be Job’s protector

Who wars on the saints? The dragon does.
Yep – the BEAST opposes man
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Dave" His message is not contained in two words of Ezk 28
The message must validate itself over and over
Rob" Why must God repeat His messages over the over?

Because man is stupid and will accept almost anything as real in the vacuum of truth – just look at the 99% following other gods – just look at Isreal contiually falling away
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Dave" you must deny large sections of scripture to keep her valid
Rob" What? Are you OK Dave.
There is a partial list growing in the thread – Robert Exposed
and it only represents the last 60 days
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πνεῦμα ὁ Θεός = a predicate nominative
DAVE" Sorry Robert – John 4:24 = God is Spirit

Rob" I see. No wonder you are confused
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So the Father is wind?
No – the spirit is as the wind – free – limitless – omnipresent

Hence Father cannot be a medium
So the Father cannot be Spirit
So there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit
OH – you make this as god #2 – different than god #1
You doubt in the monotheism of Judaeo-Christianity
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Why do translators like yourself make ruwach into "spirit" when it means "wind"?
Do you enjoy making up word meanings? 

No we use a dictionary
H7307 – רוּחַ - rûach - From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being

The word meaning is "medium" for all contexts, including the secular and the divine.

I am am OK with that – the HS is omnipresent – and forms the ether / matrix of all reality – upon which the 3D is formed

Dave" Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?
Rob" So the word "spirit" here does not mean "Holy Spirit?
NO – it means - the spirit of the sons of man
Your attempt to rewrite scripture is rejected

Dave" Yep – his spirit goes forth – leaves – is released – let go
and his body dies along with the thoughts of his biological mind
Rob" I see, but the spirit mind is still free to talk and walk before God, is that it?

Yep – angels talk with God – your satan talks with God
Neither are 3D biology – to us they are spirit (ethereal)

While the biological mind dies?
Mind – you thoughts – your education – your metal retardation is all a product of the brain – it is all vanity
Your thoughts perish the moment you die

Psa 146:4  His breath (ruwach) departs, he returns to his dust. In that very day his plans perish. 

Dave" You teach that this metaphor comes alive with a theology all of its own more important to scripture that the King of Tyre
ROb" Isn't the poetry paralleling a cherub of sin, just as King Tyre is a man of sin.
No – the metaphor = the King of Tyre covering his people with protection like a covering cherub

I would not make one more important than the other,
WHAT – you make your satan a god – and the King of Tyre has been forgotton
Eze 28:18  “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the injustice of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought fire out from within you, and it has consumed you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who saw you. 
Eze 28:19  All who know you among the people will be appalled at you. You have become a horror and will be nothing forever.’” 
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Dave" man is to die once with judgment
ROb" OK  but why can't the judgement happen later?

What happens to your soul until later – stuck between heaven and hell – now you want to believe in GHOST of dead people – but you deny the spirit

Yom Kippur is a judgement, once a year.
For the living – just as all the Jewish Holidays
What is 'once a year' in heaven's time? Time is NOT the same to God as it is to Man

Dave" Where is your evidence that your singular cherub satan rebels, hates, and opposes God – and opposes God right to rule the universe
Rob" I have shown you many cases, but you ignore my presentations.
You have presented your assumptions and false conclusions necessary to support Ellen White
But you have FAILED to prove that you satan god rebels, hates, or opposes God

Lets stick to one Testament at a time
OT Hebrew satan never rebels against God – never hates God – Never opposes God
In each occurrence – Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord working for God
If you cannot be honest about scripture then – you are just not honest

NT satanas is defined by the NT as the deceiver of man and the whole world
If you cannot be honest about scripture then – you are just not honest

Which has more value – Ellen White and Catholic tradition - Or Scripture?

[rob]

Greetings Dave

The Lord impressed me this week with the thought that the term "host of heaven" refers to both good and false elohiym powers under GOD. Not all contexts, but many of them, as I show below

2Ch 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and [on] his left.

The context implies all the good and bad armies before GOD

2Ch 33:3 For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them. {he built...: Heb. he returned and built}

The context implies all the good and bad armies before GOD - ie false elohiym powers such as Baalim .

2Ch 33:5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.

2Ch 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Manasseh was worshipping all the host of heaven, including the bad elohiym host.

Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

All creation, stars, moon and sun, was created as "large host" by the Ruwach of His mouth.
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Dave" So honest – is that what I said?
Greek pistis and Hebrew amanuah do NOT share the same root
Rob" Obviously DUH, how can one language be the same as another language?

I am showing you Dave, that pistis and other Greek words like pistis, come as a translation from Hebrew amanuh, and related words to aman. Meaning the Greek translation is referring to FAITH concepts, NOT belief concepts as you claim.

Dave" I use a dictionary
Rob" While I never use a dictionary or lexicon
I use SOla Scriptoria only. To get the Greek translation back to Hebrew, I use cross references.

FOr example in Hab 2:4 this verse is quoted by Paul numerous times, hence shows you the Greek word used in the translation process. Is this too difficult for you to fathom?

But you dodge my intentions "Their meaning might overlap but are NOT 1 to 1 equivalent"
Dave they have to be "1 to 1 equivalent", it's a Greek person trying to translate the manuscript into Greek, DUH.

Dave" The Greek word G4103 – πιστός – pistos – include an element of trust
ROb" Not interested in Greek per se' Dave, translate the Greek back to Hebrew. I am only ever interested in the Hebrew, as this is the original language of God.

You read the Scriptures with stammering lips, as the torah says.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

And what happens if you read the torah in Greek?

Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

You can than follow traditons of men, because translators are free to make up their own interpretations.

For example dictionaries come from men, not from the Lord.

Dave" Who is a sinless being - Romans 3:10-12,Psalm 14:1-3,Psalm 53:1-3
All men sin – there are none righteous – no not even one
ROb" Well Adam was sinless before He sinned. When Jesus saves you , you become sinless, but you remain in a sinful body of flesh because of your other sinnings impact your body, hence the reason we need back our sinless bodies too, but can't until Jesus gives us them fully restored.

You never consider the body needs to become sinless too.

Dave" Absolutely – our bodies are condemned to muth muth
To die as all animals do – the Tree of Life was withheld
To die spiritual death in the Lake of Fire – which is the second death
ROb" SO why is it so hard, not to fathom a SINLESS body covers over the SINLESS mind in the next life, if you are willing to be saved by this process?

In like manner the Jesus you see comes back a second time, as Acts says.

Dave" No – I am bound by God’s Laws that govern physical creation Dave" We will be changed – not sure what we will be – but we will be changed like Him

SO you have no clue and hope to God who can do anything. In like manner the Jesus you see comes back a second time, as Acts says. GOD tells you clearly what this body is like. Your old body without ra and entropy in it.

Dave" He could appear and dispensary – walk through walls
Rob" What? Even Philip was hyperspaced to another location Dave, God can do miracles with a body that is corrupt too. You speak of waiting for the next after life, as if GOD can't do anything with the creation now in a miracle.

I see Jesus as 3D in the same body, but able to walk through walls. Is anything too hard for GOD?

But you have to invent a different invention because it suits your theories.

Dave" Yep – the BEAST opposes man
ROb" How hypocrite you speak Dave, the Beast wars on humans, but the Satan prosecutor doesn't war on humans. You insist on making them two different creatures.

SO let me guess, the human enemies, happen to learn Job's assets were open to attack, so they attacked without any help from the good angel pretending not to be involved with helping kill JOb's children. Wow, so twisting Scripture you do?

And all this rests on some PHD paper from ONE scholar published, but you can't locate the paper as yet? I will be glad to study such a paper Dave.



PP"Rob" Why must God repeat His messages over the over?

Dave" Because man is stupid and will accept almost anything as real in the vacuum of truth – just look at the 99% following other gods – just look at Isreal contiually falling away
ROb" Not an answer Dave. GOD does not repeat His words over and over. Many themes are written only once as I showed you. All things are hidden as poetry for a reason.


Dave" There is a partial list growing in the thread
ROb" growing? SO you quote Scripture and this makes the truth real?

Dave" No – the spirit is as the wind – free – limitless – omnipresent
ROb" SO now who is a COvenant theory supporter? Dave is

Wind is not spirit Dave. Wind is a medium concept.

And a Medium is something that carries something. Hence you require two things to make a medium work, one functions passively the other actively.

Heat moves within the media, causing what we humans term wind.

There is a reason why the Father has a MEDIUM. A medium has the ability to diminish and make virtual, the powers of the Father without killing the sinner in his sins.

You have never considered this idea?

So the HS administrates the Medium and the Father's power flows into the through the Medium, thus the sinning sinner is NOT immediately killed by the Father's power.
This is why a medium is important.

Dave" You doubt in the monotheism of Judaeo-Christianity
ROb" You cannot fathom Scripture Dave.

Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Who is the "us"?

Cannot be angels, as angels did not sin in this context.

Adam is also "us", as Adam includes the man and his wife.

Elohiym is also "us", as the masculine power also includes a feminine power.

But according to Hebrew in marriage, the TWO become ONE flesh. In other words, the loving personalities become one spring of love, hence elohiym is ONE spiring of love.

You cannot fathom this. You say "adam" is a word of polytheism, which is bogus.

You also contradict "echad", when it says two gametes become one flesh. So Dave is really a polyethism of his parents? I don't think so.

Dave" No we use a dictionary'
ROb" Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

ROB PP" The word meaning is "medium" for all contexts, including the secular and the divine.

Dave" I am am OK with that – the HS is omnipresent – and forms the ether / matrix of all reality – upon which the 3D is formed
ROb"
We agree !!!!!!!!!

That under torah defintion, there is no such thing as "spirit", it's a man invented term.

JOhn 3:24 elohiym medium, tells us all things are revealed to human via a medium.

Nobody knows the shape of eohiym as a power, like light, fire and stuff like that.

PP Rob" So the word "spirit" here does not mean "Holy Spirit?
Dave" NO – it means - the spirit of the sons of man
Your attempt to rewrite scripture is rejected
ROb" SO does the verse mean "medium"

Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the medium of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s medium descends into the earth?

Now you agreed before, hence the term "spiriit" is a man made invented term.

And who adminstrates the medium? The Shadday does JOb 33:3

Dave" Yep – angels talk with God – your satan talks with God
Neither are 3D biology – to us they are spirit (ethereal)
ROb" Where are your texts Dave for some Hebrew word that refers to an entity that lives within the body?

It can't be MEDIUM, because a medium only carries the power from somewhere to somehwere else.

Can't wait for your verses.

Dave" the King of Tyre covering his people with protection like a covering cherub
ROb" SO your KIng Tyre is the same as the second title?

Eze 28:2 ....> unto the prince <nagiyd> of Tyrus

You are saying this title is the same person as

Eze 28:12 ...the king <melek> of Tyrus (melek means to reign - not as a king - similar but not really the same, more broad in meaning)

Wow Dave, I see these are TWO different complete creatures and titles.

Explain why you assume these are both the same human ?

Dae" What happens to your soul until later – stuck between heaven and hell
ROb" Doesn't the soul die Dave?

Not stuck anywhere?

Dave" What is 'once a year' in heaven's time?
ROb" Certainly NOT immediately upon your death? But all humans have the same judgement for all time upon the same place on earth by the same king, who functions as both attorney and prosecutor, as Rev 20 proclaims loud and clear?

Dave" OT Hebrew satan never rebels against God – never hates God – Never opposes God
In each occurrence – Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord working for God
ROb" I see, well than you stick to that idea. I hope to read your PHD paper soon.


Dave" Which has more value – tradition - Or Scripture?
ROb" Dave you demonstrate to me, tradition does for you...

1) you use human dictionaries

2) you use Gnostic writings written by Non inspired humans

You are not sola scriptoria at all.

Answer my questions on this post, regarding your "entity" that lives within the bodies of humans.

Which Scriptures tell us this?

Job 33:4

The MEDIUM EL hath made me, and the nashamah SHADDAY hath given me chayah (living ).

THis is quite a complex poem that parallels one function with another.

Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

I doubt you understand this verse, like I do, so present your verses to me.

When you die the Medium function ceases and returns to elohiym, so the power flow through the medium ceases, and your "nephesh" dies.

That is how I see the Scriptures on this topic.
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Please present you PHD paper on Satanas too quickly.
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Why do you assume the word Greek 264 in 1 John 3:8 is a different meaning to all other verses that use this Greek word, in other contexts?

G264, means to sin using free will to sin, ie morally sin. But only in 1 John 3:8 Dave changes the meaning to mean, be ignorant as an agent of RA, Not morally sin, has no free will to morally sin.

Why do you change the meaning of G264 for this verse?
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Shalom

[Dave]

Please present you PHD paper on Satanas too quickly.

Done – 9/25/23 – and you know it

Sept 27, 2023 11:23:20 GMT -5 Dave said:

Sept 25, 2023 2:00:04 GMT -5 Dave said:

Robert complains that he does not have access to scholarly papers.
He claims it is my job to copy and paste everything here

At one time you offered to be my web-master - yet after 4 years you cannot navigate this forum

[Dave]

The Lord impressed me this week with the thought that the term "host of heaven" refers to both good and false elohiym powers under GOD.

Yep – angels, archon, and man

The context implies all the good and bad armies before GOD
The context implies all the good and bad armies before GOD - ie false elohiym powers such as Baalim .
Manasseh was worshipping all the host of heaven, including the bad elohiym host.

Yep – Host of heaven = angels, archon, and man

Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

All creation, stars, moon and sun, was created as "large host" by the Ruwach of His mouth.

Yep – all creation came from the feminine womb
What is you point – how does any of this prove your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God
------------------------------

Dave" So honest – is that what I said?
Greek pistis and Hebrew amanuah do NOT share the same root
Rob" Obviously
Then why do you claim it?

I am showing you Dave, that pistis and other Greek words like pistis, come as a translation from Hebrew amanuh, and related words to aman. Meaning the Greek translation is referring to FAITH concepts, NOT belief concepts as you claim.
Nonsense – Greek words did not originate in Hebrew
Billions of people have strong faith in Allah – not the same as belief in the truth
---------------------------------

Dave" I use a dictionary
Rob" While I never use a dictionary or lexicon
I use SOla Scriptoria only. To get the Greek translation back to Hebrew, I use cross references.

Which fails you over and over
satan an English word for Hebrew satan i the OT
satan is an English word for Chaldean satan in the NT
Your word game cannot tell the difference because you avoid context

But you dodge my intentions "Their meaning might overlap but are NOT 1 to 1 equivalent"
Dave they have to be "1 to 1 equivalent", it's a Greek person trying to translate the manuscript into Greek, DUH.
DUH – your ‘have to be’ is 100% error

Dave" The Greek word G4103 – πιστός – pistos – include an element of trust
ROb" Not interested in Greek per se' Dave, translate the Greek back to Hebrew. I am only ever interested in the Hebrew, as this is the original language of God.

Correct – you pretend you have the power and authority to rewrite scripture
You don’t

You can than follow traditons of men, because translators are free to make up their own interpretations.
For example dictionaries come from men, not from the Lord.

Ten of thousands of people have worked on Biblical translations – all through history – it is a a validation by many – thousands
Biblical lexicons and dictionaries draw only from within scripture
So words that are use only a few times in scripture have a bias in translation

G4171 – πόλεμος – polēmos - From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war.
Total KJV occurrences: 18

The meaning of this word outside of scripture means so much more and jut war
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Dave" Who is a sinless being - Romans 3:10-12,Psalm 14:1-3,Psalm 53:1-3
All men sin – there are none righteous – no not even one
ROb" Well Adam was sinless before He sinned.
Yep – until he gave into (yester ra)
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Dave" Yep – the BEAST opposes man
ROb" How hypocrite you speak Dave, the Beast wars on humans, but the Satan prosecutor doesn't war on humans. You insist on making them two different creatures.

Because they are – they have different origins – different functions

And all this rests on some PHD paper from ONE scholar published, but you can't locate the paper as yet? I will be glad to study such a paper Dave.

I have posted several – and scripture is obvious to any honest seeker

Your respect is obvious
I know you must be frustrated – unable to defend your Ellen White satan tradition
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Dave" There is a partial list growing in the thread
ROb" growing? SO you quote Scripture and this makes the truth real?
Not the same as you denying scripture to make it false

Dave" No – the spirit is as the wind – free – limitless – omnipresent
ROb" SO now who is a COvenant theory supporter?

Robert – you do not know the term – so why do you try to use it
Discuss Dillon question – prove you know what your talking about

ROB PP" The word meaning is "medium" for all contexts, including the secular and the divine.

Dave" I am am OK with that – the HS is omnipresent – and forms the ether / matrix of all reality – upon which the 3D is formed
ROb" 
We agree !!!!!!!!!
You say the HS is god #2 – a different person that god #1 - or is not even a god
I say HS = The Spirit of God
Do we agree?

PP Rob" So the word "spirit" here does not mean "Holy Spirit?
Dave" NO – it means - the spirit of the sons of man
Your attempt to rewrite scripture is rejected
ROb" SO does the verse mean "medium"

The spirit of man is NOT the ether / matrix of all physical creation
All physical creation was not built upon angels
angels, archon, and man are individual entities within creation

Dae" What happens to your soul until later – stuck between heaven and hell
ROb" Doesn't the soul die Dave? Not stuck anywhere?
So the final judgment is not one event in the future – you now want it to happen immediately after death

Dave" What is 'once a year' in heaven's time?
ROb" Certainly NOT immediately upon your death?
Nope = Hebrews 9:27 does
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Dave" OT Hebrew satan never rebels against God – never hates God – Never opposes God
In each occurrence – Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord working for God
ROb" I see, well than you stick to that idea.

1Ch 21:1  Then satan stood up against Israel
2Sa 24:1  Now the anger of Adonai again flared up against Israel,
How does this prove your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God?

Zec 3 - your satan is heaven's prosceutor 
How does this prove your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God?

Job - God told your satan to attack Job
Did your satan rebel, hate, or oppose God - NO - he did exactly as requested
You pointed out that God made your satn Job's protector
Did your satan rebel, hate, or oppose God - NO - he did exactly as requested
How does this prove your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God?


1 King 22 - God asked for a volenteer to be a satan
How does this prove your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God?

In each and every event - your Hebrew satan onebys God - serves God - helps facilitate God's Will on earth 
If you cannot see this - then you cannot be honest
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Why do you assume the word Greek 264 in 1 John 3:8 is a different meaning to all other verses that use this Greek word, in other contexts?

G264, means to sin using free will to sin, ie morally sin. But only in 1 John 3:8 Dave changes the meaning to mean, be ignorant as an agent of RA, Not morally sin, has no free will to morally sin.

Why do you change the meaning of G264 for this verse?

I don’t
You want to rewrite scripture to say that sin entered the world through your satan
It says sin entered the world through one human being

Rom 5:12  So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. 
Rom 5:13  For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law. 

This scripture says – what ever happened in Gen 1:2 was not counted as sin – and God called it tov

Your point is only valid if you deny scripture to make it true

[rob]

Greetings Dave
Happy Sabbath

Dave" Greek words did not originate in Hebrew
Rob" I didn't say they did, I am saying the Greek translators chose words with the best equivalent to the Hebrew manuscript they were translating into Greek with.

Dave" Billions of people have strong faith in Allah
ROb" True, the Opposer has powers of faith too.

Dave" Biblical lexicons and dictionaries draw only from within scripture
ROb" Polysemy is assumed. Jeff Benner and I do not like polysemy.

Dave" So words that are use only a few times in scripture have a bias in translation
ROb" true


Dave" The meaning of this word outside of scripture means so much more and just war
Rob" You got my attention, but leave me standing? Why do you do that? So outside of Scripture what does Polemos mean?

DAVE" Because they are – they have different origins – different functions
Rob" Still waiting for your scholar to prove this idea, after all, I have disproved your idea here, many times.


Dave" I have posted several
Rob" Supply me your link than, to the paper on Satanas.


Dave" I know you must be frustrated
Rob" Not really Dave, one cannot change a person's viewpoint, or world view. Not even evidence, that I have shown you makes you listen.


Dave" Discuss Dillon question – prove you know what your talking about
ROb" sorry I can't, never heard of the theories you pose, so unless you ask something I can handle, I cannot help you .

Dave" I say HS = The Spirit of God
Do we agree?
ROb" NO.

If the ruwach is a medium, it cannot be functioned by the Father, as well as the Father's flow moving into it, as media, flowing through the medium.

Such a process would kill sin, Ra and Entropy instantly because the Father opposes all dysfunction, and imperfection.

A medium functions passively, so the active flow from the Father is diminished and virtually applied as required by the properties of the medium affecting the media inside itself. You cannot have an active medium, as would be the case if the Father functioned as a spirit expression, while the Father flowed his power through the medium.

Sorry, I cannot fathom such a device, because no natural process exists like this in nature. And the Father created Creation so we humans can perceive GOD. Rom 1:20

You also present three expressions of a Being, again something not found in nature, so you violate the Romans 1:20 verse, that looking at Nature we can evaluate God.

You didn't answer my Gen 3:22 question:-

Ge 3:22 And the YHWH elohiym said, Behold, the Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

In the context, YHWH elohiym is a elohiym power, yading tov and ra.

In the context, Adam is a elohiym power, yading tov and ra.

Angels do not yada tov and ra. The only way to achieve this idea is to sin. Or unless you are allknowing like God, than you know RA without sinning.

Now who is "us" ?

Obviously the same as "WHOM" is Adam elohiym?

Made of Adam and Eve, two persons of love, but one being, and one kind, the adam kind.

So we must assume Elohiym is the same, two persons of love, but one divine kind.

Later the humans procreate a son.

However the divine has always existed as three, so the terms of family and father, son and mother, do not really fit nicely with the divine, we see things darkly.

One cannot demonstrate relational love within a kind, unless other personalities of loving also co-exist.

So your premise falls apart.
This one verse explains who and what elohiym is.
------------

Dave" The spirit of man is NOT the ether / matrix of all physical creation
All physical creation was not built upon angels
angels, archon, and man are individual entities within creation
ROb" correct, hence the medium cannot apply to mankind. Your meaning of the verse is wrong.

Dave" angels, archon, and man are individual entities within creation
ROb" Pardon me Dave, but your archons are not mentioned as ever being created in the torah.

Only adam and cherub are mentioned as created.

Dave" So the final judgment is not one event in the future – you now want it to happen immediately after death
ROb" What? The final judgment is one event in the future – nothing happens immediately after death

Dave" Nope = Hebrews 9:27 does
Rob" Heb 9:27 (YLT) and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Youngs is a literal translation, I do not see your immediately after death idea?
---------------------

Dave" Did your satan rebel, hate, or oppose God - NO - he did exactly as requested
ROb" You are short sighted.

Question" DId the Opposer have freedom to exericise all things within his power, but not take Job's life?

How is this obeying God? Freedom to do what, I wonder?

Just sit around and watch Job for sinning?

Or inflame the humans to attack Job, even an accessory to killing Job's children.


Which is it?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, ....although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

If GOD was moved to destroy Job without cause, than the Opposer was allowed to destroy Job without cause.

I do not see this as an opposer obeying God, but as an opposer allowed to attack Job.


Dave" 1 King 22 - God asked for a volenteer to be a satan
How does this prove your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God?
ROb" In my post I showed you the Host refers to both good and bad elohiym powers before the Father.

If the king wanted to sin, only a bad elohiym power could be sent in the empower the sinner to sin more.

This is NOT a volenteer, but one who is a ruler over sin, and thus able to go as directed.

God cannot violate free will, so if you choose to sin, the Opposer is allowed to rule over you.

You do not see this idea.

Dave" If you cannot see this - then you cannot be honest
ROb" I see God is in control, even of his opponent. But the contest is within boundaries of control, so the human is left fairly to either powers. You are assuming the opposed obeys freely from love, is hardly the case. The opposer obeys because his powers are limited and controlled by God at all times.
----------------

Dave"
I don’t
You want to rewrite scripture to say that sin entered the world through your satan
It says sin entered the world through one human being
ROb" O boy !!!!

So the verse says

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

What does sinneth from the beginning mean than Dave?

It means the devil sinned first.

"You want to rewrite scripture to say that sin entered the world through your satan" is false. I agree with you.

Sin entered our world because a human sinned.

But this verse says the devil also sinned first in God's world, long before a human ever sinned.

Dave" It says sin entered the world through one human being
ROb" Correct.

Now do you acknowledge the devil sins like humans sin, using a free will to sin, like humans do?

That is the reason I asked you before? Meaning of G264, says the devil sins like a human sins.

DAVE" This scripture says – what ever happened in Gen 1:2 was not counted as sin – and God called it tov
Rob" now who is rewriting scripture ?

So many assumptions packed in Gen 1:2 isn't it?

Why can't you stick to plain reading of the torah?

Dave" Your point is only valid if you deny scripture to make it true
ROb" Really Dave. Is there a church assembly that supports your view, that the devil never really sinned in the beginning?

Why even Jesus says the devil was a murderer from the beginning and a father of lies. So Jesus must be wrong too? Forgot to understand God saying the first sins were tov?

Really Dave, I would be hard to find any church that views your view. Are you really the only person who has the real truth? So the protestants were all wrong?
-----------------

Dave" Robert complains that he does not have access to scholarly papers.
ROb" My material is available on my website. Now need to go anywhere else.

Dave" At one time you offered to be my web-master - yet after 4 years you cannot navigate this forum
Rob" COmputer skills are highly specialized Dave. I used to be able to programme in Delphi, Javascript and PHP, so I am rusty these days.
----------------

ROb" SO your KIng Tyre is the same as the second title?

Eze 28:2 ....> unto the prince <nagiyd> of Tyrus

You are saying this title is the same person as

Eze 28:12 ...the king <melek> of Tyrus (melek means to reign - not as a king - similar but not really the same, more broad in meaning)

Wow Dave, I see these are TWO different complete creatures and titles.

You didn't respond to my questions.

1) Why do you see nagiyd and melek belonging to the same human from Tyre?
2) Clearly their contexts are very different. Please discuss.
-----------------------

ROb" Where are your texts Dave for some Hebrew word that refers to an entity that lives within the body?

Not attempted by Dave.

The soul is described as dust and the breath of life entering the dusty form. No mention of another entity.

The breath of life term has ruwach and nashamah words used. One means medium, the other meanings breathing, wind or spirit. So a man's wind or spirit, come into being when the man breathes in and out, and thus alive.

Such a term is partnered with the medium, so GOD can commune with the spirit function within the human soul.

No mention of the nashamah as coming from somewhere else, except as it comes from the soul, and a dusty form, in the present of the medium of God.

Now your turn to discuss the Hebrew words of man's creation.
-----------------

Dave" Yep – the BEAST opposes man
Rob than you agree the Beast also opposes God?

Ps 17:8 ¶ Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,
"shadow of thy wings, is the administrator of the medium, the Shadday, who functions as the Medium, or HS.

Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

Anyone who touches the apple of God's eye, causes God's wrath to descend upon that power.

That is why God said to the Opposer, who moved me to destroy Job without a cause.

Shalom

[Dave]

Dave" Greek words did not originate in Hebrew
Rob" I didn't say they did, I am saying the Greek translators chose words with the best equivalent to the Hebrew manuscript they were translating into Greek with.

Correct – best equivalent
Your concept that words have a 1 to 1 translation is a false
Your game play dragguing Hebrew into the NT in a 1 to 1 translation leads to error

Dave" Billions of people have strong faith in Allah
ROb" True, the Opposer has powers of faith too.
Correct – faith and belief in the truth are two different things

Dave" The meaning of this word outside of scripture means so much more and just war
Rob" You got my attention, but leave me standing? Why do you do that? So outside of Scripture what does Polemos mean?
To dissagree - to argue - to quarrell - to struggel - to contend - and to battle and war

DAVE" Because they are – they have different origins – different functions
Rob" Still waiting for your scholar to prove this idea, after all, I have disproved your idea here, many times.
Dave" I have posted several
Rob" Supply me your link than, to the paper on Satanas.
When I supply a link to the papers - you pretend you cannot access them
When I post them to this forum – you pretend you cannot find them
So serious

Dave" Discuss Dillon question – prove you know what your talking about
ROb" sorry I can't, never heard of the theories you pose, so unless you ask something I can handle, I cannot help you .
Correct – you continually misuse the term – without know what it means
So serious – and unwilling to know

A medium functions passively, so the active flow from the Father is diminished and virtually applied as required by the properties of the medium affecting the media inside itself. You cannot have an active medium, as would be the case if the Father functioned as a spirit expression, while the Father flowed his power through the medium.

Sorry, I cannot fathom such a device, because no natural process exists like this in nature.
Correct – you cannot fathom God – so make Him like a man – does your god also have a long white beard and wear only white robes?

And the Father created Creation so we humans can perceive GOD. Rom 1:20
You teach that creation is flawed – it all fell away from God’s design
You are not consistent - AGAIN
------------

Dave" The spirit of man is NOT the ether / matrix of all physical creation
All physical creation was not built upon angels
angels, archon, and man are individual entities within creation
ROb" correct, hence the medium cannot apply to mankind. Your meaning of the verse is wrong.

I will agree that the HS – that expanded from God – went out from God – was with God = the matrix / ether of the universe – the underlying E (energy) that sustain the ALL at the subatomic level

The spirits of angels, archon, and man are created beinging within creation

Dave" So the final judgment is not one event in the future – you now want it to happen immediately after death
ROb" What? The final judgment is one event in the future – nothing happens immediately after death

Judgment happens after death – heaven or hell
You offered the story of David as proof - he did not go straight to heaven

Dave" Nope = Hebrews 9:27 does
Rob" Heb 9:27 (YLT) and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Youngs is a literal translation, I do not see your immediately after death idea?

Meta = with – in association with – combined with
Your just want to rewrite scripture
---------------------

God cannot violate free will, so if you choose to sin, the Opposer is allowed to rule over you.
You do not see this idea.
Sure – neither God or your satan can make you choices for you
Your sin is your choice alone – no one else is responsible except YOU

Dave" If you cannot see this - then you cannot be honest
ROb" I see God is in control, even of his opponent.

WOW – so you admit it
God is in control at all times – God is absolute
no one forces God to change - No one can oppose God

If your god is in control of everything - even your satan - why have two gods?
----------------

Dave"
I don’t
You want to rewrite scripture to say that sin entered the world through your satan
It says sin entered the world through one human being
ROb" O boy !!!!

So the verse says
"You want to rewrite scripture to say that sin entered the world through your satan" is false. I agree with you.
Sin entered our world because a human sinned.

But this verse says the devil also sinned first in God's world, long before a human ever sinned.

There is only one FIRST
Eve was first - then Adam - your idea of your satan being firster is nonesense

Dave" It says sin entered the world through one human being
ROb" Correct.

DAVE" This scripture says – what ever happened in Gen 1:2 was not counted as sin – and God called it tov
Rob" now who is rewriting scripture ?

Rom 5:12  So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. 
Rom 5:13  For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law. 

Dave" Your point is only valid if you deny scripture to make it true
ROb" Really Dave.
Yep – your view is only correct if Rom 5:13 is error
-----------------

Dave" Yep – the BEAST opposes man
Rob than you agree the Beast also opposes God?
No I do not agree with your assumption that is necessary to protect your Ellen White

[Dillon]

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, ....although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
If GOD was moved to destroy Job without cause, than the Opposer was allowed to destroy Job without cause.

Without cause? I thought all men were sinners!
Is Robert trying to suggest that Job was actually Jesus Christ?

[Dave]

Without cause? I thought all men were sinners. Is Robert trying to suggest that Job was actually Jesus Christ?

You are correct – Job was a sinner
But – but he was also a believer in God (with trust)

Listen to Robert’s words

ROb" I see God is in control, even of his opponent.

Either God is using satan to oppose Himself
Or – there is no such thing as a GREAT CONTROVERSY – a cosmic struggle between two gods
Robert just admitted that God plays both sides – is in control of both sides


But the contest is within boundaries of control, so the human is left fairly to either powers.
Absolutely correct – THE CONTEST is all about man – chosing God over the WORLD

You are assuming the opposed obeys freely from love, is hardly the case. The opposer obeys because his powers are limited and controlled by God at all times.
I agree – Either God is using satan to oppose Himself
OR - satan is a tool of God – for God (Col 1:16)
Hebrew satan – is the tool od the heavenly prosecutor
NT satanas – is the BEAST created to consume – entropy
Both all 100% God’s Plan / God’s Will

Robert has completly flip his view of satan

Before he would have said a single cherub rose up against God because of pride - took 1/3rd of all God's angels to the dark side to oppose God's right to rule the universe.- Catholic Fallen Angels - Ellen White's Great Controversy - Robert's satans rebels, hates, and opposes God - UNTIL TODAY

Now he denies it all - in favor of God being in absolute control

[rob]

Greetings Dave

Sorry my editing of this post failed and I lost an hour of editing in colour, due to the www server failing. You can read it still, but less favorably, sorry for that. Fixed, a second edit went fine

Dave" Correct – best equivalent
Your concept that words have a 1 to 1 translation is a false
Rob" Thanks, true. Of course the translation is fuzzy, and even ignores cultural and idiom configurations.

Hence the best way to learn truth is translate the Greek back to Hebrew. And this is even difficult, but it helps to understand the NT in the eyes of the OT.

Sadly most churches say the entire OT was nailed to the cross.

Dave" To dissagree - to argue - to quarrell - to struggel - to contend - and to battle and war
ROb" You think? So I cannot every be friendly towards you?

Dave" When I supply a link to the papers - you pretend you cannot access them
When I post them to this forum – you pretend you cannot find them
Rob" Dave, my material is available on the Internet, from my website. I collect materials, and the source link no longer works because the www is filtered these days. Hence important to gather the materials to your own website.

spiritualsprings.proboards.com/thread/17/covid-2019-vaccine-study-humans

Like this above link, no longer available on the broader www.

Dave" So serious
ROb" I am serious, are you?

Surely you have your materials on your Hard Drive C:

like I do, I have dozens of papers from all kinds of scholars located on C drive, so I can copy and paste material to you, if all else fails. So I am serious, and I back up my words with scholars, like Jeff Benner, and Chris Lancaster.


Dave" Correct – you continually misuse the term – without know what it means
ROb" no need to mock, you also do not know the Bible salvational steps to Jesus, as outlined in the scroll of Yashua.

Dave" So serious – and unwilling to know
ROb" I am also willing to learn, but you also swamp me with too many topics, all time consuming.

Dave" Correct – you cannot fathom God – so make Him like a man – does your god also have a long white beard and wear only white robes?
ROb" WHy must you mock? Can't you indentify what a medium is and how mediums function.

spiritualsprings.org/ss-760.htm

Try reading my material studies.

Rob Posted "And the Father created Creation so we humans can perceive GOD. Rom 1:20
And Dave ignored the statement, instead mocked

DaVE" You teach that creation is flawed – it all fell away from God’s design


ROb" What does this mean Dave?

Ge 3:17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, ....cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

What does this mean Dave?

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;
This verse says to me that even the eternal power and God head, is explained by looking at the Creation.

What does this verse say to you Dave?

Show me a natural creature that has three expressions of itself? I cannot think of any?

But family pictures of creatures are similes of the eternal power and Godhead, as the verse claims to say.

It must be hard reading Scripture plainly?

Dave" I will agree that the HS – that expanded from God – went out from God – was with God = the matrix / ether of the universe – the underlying E (energy) that sustain the ALL at the subatomic level
ROb" I agree with this idea too.

This is administrated by the Shadday as a Medium concept. The medium brings the powers of the Father unto all creation, even it the creation is curse and even if sinners sin, the Father can uphold it all without destroying it, because it is imperfect because of sin.

Dave" Judgment happens after death – heaven or hell
You offered the story of David as proof - he did not go straight to heaven
ROb" Correct

Dave" Meta = with – in association with – combined with
ROb" How come Young does not agree "meta" means immediately after death?
Show me a scholar who agrees with you Dave, that the Greek word "meta" means immediately after the event before it?

Dave" Sure – neither God or your satan can make you choices for you
Your sin is your choice alone – no one else is responsible except YOU
ROb" correct

However when you choose one elohiym power or the other elohiym power, your choice is empowered by that power. Do you agree with this idea?

You do not see our choices as choosing which elohiym power we will serve? There are scores of verses to this idea, why do you ignore the Scriptures?

Dave" WOW – so you admit it
God is in control at all times – God is absolute
no one forces God to change - No one can oppose God

If your god is in control of everything - even your satan - why have two gods?
ROb" O boy Dave, are you dull? Because when the free will of a creature decides to rebel against GOD, the relationship is broken, and this is called missing God's power in your life. Every time a creature free will sins, they oppose GOD, because they are not wanting the power flow of GOD in their life. They want their own self power instead, a power that technically does not exist, but God allows it to exist, so creatures can sin and miss God directly and thus choose a different power instead.

In 1 John 3:8, it says the devil sins like a human sins.

Why can't you admit what the Scripture is saying plainly and clearly?

Does this mean when a human saved by GOD, sins, they also oppose GOD, after being saved? Read Ezekiel 18, the answer is yes, but the process takes time, for 1 JOhn also says there is a sin-offering NOT unto death, so sometimes GOD forgives you all the time even when you sin, especially ignorant missing.

But you have the war in heaven as only seconds, while I see dealing with sin, meaning pride, takes time and talking, and discussing and longing for repentence. all takes time. Lots of time. Years even for the first angel to sin so badly that God finally had to kick the sinning cherub out from heaven.

You say this is a Catholic idea? Show me a link that details the Catholic doctrine plainly and clearly? Does the Catholic even clearly define their doctrines with Scripture for the public? I have not studied this before, my hypothesis is such a website does not exist, for the system is designed to confuse its cattle with confusion, so I doubt your claim is even valid.

Dave" If your god is in control of everything - even your satan - why have two gods?
ROb" Not two gods. The word elohiym means a "family picture" that knows both tov and ra. Hardly could you term "elohiym" as a "god" for a creature.

The fact is the Scripture has in the moral law, have no false elohiym power before My face. So why does this exist in the moral law, since all eternity?

Surely no such false elohiym power existed, all that existed was God and his creatures of tov. Nothing ra and with sin ever existed.

But the moral law describes love and freewill.

Hence when you choose to free will sin, the false elohiym power immediately exists.
That is why the command exists in the moral law.

But you do not understand this idea.

Dave" There is only one FIRST
Eve was first
ROb" First human to sin, yes.

But you do not consider the angels as also have free will to sin also, and thus become an elohiym power as well knowing tov and ra.

Why would God create creatures without free will?

Why even most animals have a pineal gland, so they can talk to humans across space within the mind.

I imagine all animals of higher order have free will to choose God freely.

So why would GOD have cherubims without free will? You offer no reason.

Dave" Yep – your view is only correct if Rom 5:13 is error
ROb" WHy can't humans who sin only affect humans?
And the cherubims that sin only affect cherubims?

Why can't you have both Dave?

Dave" No I do not agree with your assumption
ROb " so you deny this verse?
Zec 2:8 for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them,
------------------------

Rob posted previously

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, ....although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
If GOD was moved to destroy Job without cause, than the Opposer was allowed to destroy Job without cause.

Dillon posted "
Without cause? I thought all men were sinners!
Is Robert trying to suggest that Job was actually Jesus Christ?
ROb" Greetings Dillon, thanks for your post.

God declared this to a sinner

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

So when you are saved, GOD treats you as sinless, perfect and escheweth evil....

And John says

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in GOD sinneth not:

So the reason why the Opposer hated God saying this about Job, is because the Opposer tried to get Job to sin before, but failed. Hence make excuses.

Dave" You are correct – Job was a sinner
But – but he was also a believer in God (with trust)
ROb" glad somebody agrees with me

Dave" Robert just admitted that God plays both sides – is in control of both sides
ROb" Again you fail to understand.

Where does the matter in a gun come from? GOD

Where does the motion to keep the atoms in existence come from? GOD

Where does the living wicked man being alive come from? GOD grants him probation to live

Where does the wicked man get his powers within his fingers come from? From GOD, who passively empowers life within the finger.

Where does the wicked man who chooses to shoot a bullet at another human to murder him come from?

From the wicked man himself, not from GOD.

God cannot control the free will mind to choose.

Discuss this with me Dave, stop playing games that the Opposer cannot oppose God, within the boundaries God grants to him.


ROb PP" But the contest is within boundaries of control, so the human is left fairly to either powers.
Dave" Absolutely correct
ROb" True , the same applies to the Opposer.

Dave" I agree – Either God is using satan to oppose Himself
ROb" Mock on.

Dave" Robert has completly flip his view of satan
\Rob\ " No I haven't.

Dave" Before he would have said a single cherub rose up against God because of pride - took 1/3rd of all God's angels to the dark side to oppose God's right to rule the universe.- Catholic Fallen Angels - Ellen White's Great Controversy - Robert's satans rebels, hates, and opposes God - UNTIL TODAY

Now he denies it all - in favor of God being in absolute control
ROb" really Dave. You are strange sometimes.

GOD does not control free will to choose.

The moral law says this

Have no other false elohiym powers before ME.

How does a creature become an opposing elohiym power before GOD? By choosing to sin.

See Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

So an elohiym power knows BOTH good and evil.

The only way to achieve this is for the creature to sin.

Sadly you teach GOD can intentionally create matter, and creatures with this RA concept, is completely bogus. Why would GOD want sin (and its RA) in His domain? He doesn't and won't.

He has allowed it this once, because SIN appeared only once, since free will ability was created, one creature decided to express free will to choose.

But you have angels without free will?

You make the Scriptures really confusing.
------------------------------------------------------
PS

Looking at Greek word satanas

Strong's Greek 4567

36 Occurrences



Σατανᾶ — 15 Occ.

Σατανᾶν — 4 Occ.

Σατανᾶς — 17 Occ.

Explain why this Greek word comes in three forms? Does this mean you have three creatures? Or perhaps the suffix is just changing the stem word slightly as a nuance?

You really are going out on a limb with your strict meaning to some Greek grammar over the stem word. 

Shalom

[Dave]

Dave" Correct – best equivalent
Your concept that words have a 1 to 1 translation is a false
Rob" Thanks, true.
Hence the best way to learn truth is translate the Greek back to Hebrew.
There is already enough human error within scripture - adding another layer from someone who cannot even translate is too outragious to be serious
Yep – all you have to do is rewrite scripture and you can make it say anything you want
-----------------------------------

Dave" When I supply a link to the papers - you pretend you cannot access them
When I post them to this forum – you pretend you cannot find them
Dave" So serious
ROb" I am serious, are you?
Surely you have your materials on your Hard Drive C:
like I do, I have dozens of papers from all kinds of scholars located on C drive, so I can copy and paste material to you, if all else fails. So I am serious, and I back up my words with scholars, like Jeff Benner, and Chris Lancaster.

Whats wrong with the documents I posted – just for you
Then I sent you a personal message in the hopes you would read it over before posting – guess NOT

Sept 25, 2023 2:00:04 GMT -5 Dave said:

Please present you PHD paper on Satanas too quickly.

Done – 9/25/23 – and you know it

If you are completely unable to click on the date stamp - you could look at the main menu of this forum - but it would require one click - way too complicted
After 4 years you deny that you can navigate this forum
How can we take you serious - you are just making excusses
-------------------------------------

Dave" Correct – you continually misuse the term – without knowing what it means
ROb" no need to mock,
Dave" So serious – and unwilling to know
ROb" I am also willing to learn, but you also swamp me with too many topics, all time consuming.

It is an Ellen White's teaching – and I thought you were her disciple and verse in her theology
Why do you teach something you do not understand?

This thread was started for you to prove to us that your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God
You are the one who went off topic over and over trying to avoid giving a direct answer
-------------------------------

Dave" Correct – you cannot fathom God – so make Him like a man – does your god also have a long white beard and wear only white robes?
ROb" WHy must you mock?
You make God a man - you limit Him - make boundaries for Him - deny that He can be in two places at the same time - your god cannot even love by himself he need another god for a relationship to exist
Because your post are childish – you claim to be highly educated – yet you cannot read and comprehend English

Rob Posted "And the Father created Creation so we humans can perceive GOD. Rom 1:20
And Dave ignored the statement, instead mocked
DaVE" You teach that creation is flawed – it all fell away from God’s design
YES I MOCK YOUR FLIP FLOPPY THEOLOGY
Which is it – Rom 1:19 uncovers God’s creation
Or is God’s creation is fallen and changed - flawed
----------------------------

ROb" What does this mean Dave?
Ge 3:17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, ....cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
What does this mean Dave?
LIFE IS HARD – and GOD made it that way
Why is life hard – because true repentance comes from grief and heart ache
--------------------------

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;
This verse says to me that even the eternal power and God head, is explained by looking at the Creation.
What does this verse say to you Dave?

So many things
1st Law of Thermodynamics = Gen 1:1 - creation
2nd Law of Thermodynamics = Gen 1:2 - entropy
3rd Law of Thermodynamics = thing at rest stay at rest – until another force puts things in motion – and God separated the Darkness from the Light – Gen 1:3

The Riddle of Steel – a sword is hard, sharp, solid
Until you look closer – then the surface is a mountain range of molecules
Until you look closer then those molecules are just a collection of atoms
Until you look closer then those atoms are subatomic particles separated by a vast empty space
The electron is best described as a cloud of energy
Smash a proton or neutron and you find 3 quarks (Trinity)
Two quarks spinning the same (God / Christ) on quark spinning opposite (HS)
Smash a quark – and what do you find – just more clouds of energy

So - a sword that is hard, sharp, and solid
Is actually little clouds of E separated by vast distances
The thing is built upon the non-thing
Thus the conversation about this reality being a hologram - an illusion
------------------------------------

Show me a natural creature that has three expressions of itself? I cannot think of any?
But family pictures of creatures are similes of the eternal power and Godhead, as the verse claims to say.
It must be hard reading Scripture plainly?

God is not a NATURAL creature – nor a created thing
------------------------------

Dave" I will agree that the HS – that expanded from God – went out from God – was with God = the matrix / ether of the universe – the underlying E (energy) that sustain the ALL at the subatomic level
ROb" I agree with this idea too. 
NO YOU DO NOT MR SERIOUS – the HS is NOT GOD #1 according to you it is another god #2
-----------------------

Dave" Sure – neither God or your satan can make you choices for you
Your sin is your choice alone – no one else is responsible except YOU
ROb" correct 
However when you choose one elohiym power or the other elohiym power, your choice is empowered by that power. Do you agree with this idea?

Sorry Robert – I do not have two gods
I can choose the Creator – or NOT and just live in the world
I can choose the Creator – or just follow (yester ra) SELF

I can walk through this world - without ever considering creation or God - just focused upon SELF
Does not require that I bow to a god named satan
If I have never considered God why would I even think of satan
Both would be fairy tails to me - I rather make money - play hockey - raise my family 
I would be focused upon world - life in the dirt - NO SATAN required

satanas - the BEAST is the world - ass holes on the HWY - my boss is incompetent 
The war in Ukrane causes me to have less than loving thoughts for Putin and the Russian attitude
I pray every day that I know he will take care of me - yet I have two daughters entering college (I would be lying if I said I am not worried about the money)

I am a Gnostic - no matter how much I WANT them to attend college
If that is not God's plan for them - I will just be dissapointed
My family has the attitude -
If it is meant to be - it ill happen regardless - we cannot screw it up - even if we try
If it is NOT meant to be - no matter how much anxienty I suffer - it will be pointless

If satan possessed a lot of people - like Catholic Exorcist
More people would believe - would be exposed 
REMEMBER - the serpent is subtle / arum

Instead the archon infect Hollywood - not all - just an important few
Instead the archon infect government - not all - just an important few
Instead the archon - are still in league - with the 13 families that rule the word
Instead the archon infect education - both darwinism and creationism
Instead the archon infect religious leaders - not all - just an important few

Ponder this -
I consider homosexuality to be a ra - why because it is opposite of be fruitful and multiply
Therefore homosexuality transgress this basic commandment
Therefore the archon are all over the gay rights movement 

YET - it is all the hand of God
Romans chapter 1 - to the people that deny God as the Creator - GOD WILL SIDETRACK them with defiling their oen bodies

Another Job like event
God did it - but satanic forces carried out the deed
REMEMBER - the serpent is subtle / arum

My Eph 6:12 struggle is with the world - and the social trends and attitudes of the masses 

Catholic Possession - still 100% real - just not mainstream at the moment
Why - because the the BEAST / satanas exposed himself - it would drive the masses into church
REMEMBER - the serpent is subtle / arum
Now he just has to say - don't believe
Now all he has to say is - look at all those Christ like people within Christendom
Sunday Christians - part time believers - look at all the death at the hands of the church
Right now in the Philippines Church of God and Chiurch of Christ exchanged gunfire
The creation Institute teaches such a terrible pseudo-science that even children laught at it

Right now there are a few "christian" denominations that teach absolute error
Sorry JW - heaven is real
Sorry Mormons - Jehovah was never a man - and Christ and satan are not siblings
Sorry Ellen White - the spirit is real and satan is not a god
All a product of the 2nd Great Awakening

Yes - there is evil in the world - the archon are afoot
Has nothing to do with Catholic fallen angels and a satan that rebels, hates, or opposes God
----------------------------------------

Dave" WOW – so you admit it
God is in control at all times – God is absolute
no one forces God to change - No one can oppose God

If your god is in control of everything - even your satan - why have two gods?
ROb" O boy Dave, are you dull? Because when the free will of a creature decides to rebel against GOD,
So – you teach that GOD forces your satan you oppose God
God is either in control – or he struggles against your satan
You cannot teach both – and be serious

But you have the war in heaven as only seconds, while I see dealing with sin, meaning pride, takes time and talking, and discussing and longing for repentence. all takes time. Lots of time.
Is it over? Has the Beast been thrown down to earth - or is that war still going on?

Yep – you teach a weak God – touch and go – your satan might even win

Dave" If your god is in control of everything - even your satan - why have two gods?
ROb" Not two gods. The word elohiym means a "family picture"
Now you teach that satan is a part of the Godhead?
-----------------

The fact is the Scripture has in the moral law, have no false elohiym power before My face. So why does this exist in the moral law, since all eternity?
When was this Law / Commandment given?
If you say the 10 commandment exist eternally – then you deny scripture – Rom 4:15 Rom 5:13
But – you do not have a problem denying NT scripture do you?
----------------------

Dave" There is only one FIRST
Eve was first
ROb" First human to sin, yes.
But you do not consider the angels as also have free will to sin also, and thus become an elohiym power as well knowing tov and ra.
Correct – angels do not have Free Will
and you comment has nothing to do with Rom 5:12

Why would God create creatures without free will?
To be an angel is to serve and praise (yester tov)
To be a BEAST – is to follow (yester ra) – be an animal
Man is the creature that can choose – we are both

Dave" Yep – your view is only correct if Rom 5:13 is error
ROb" WHy can't humans who sin only affect humans?
Robert – why can’t you read English
Rom 5:12  So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. 
ROb" WHy can't humans who sin only affect humans?
Yes – Eve's sin – only effects humans
Not monkeys – not ants – not mice – or baboons – just man
Not plants – not rocks – not water – or stars – just man

And the cherubims that sin only affect cherubims?
Why can't you have both Dave?
Because it is not scriptural -

Dave" No I do not agree with your assumption
ROb " so you deny this verse?
Zec 2:8 for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them,

Rom 12:19  Never take your own revenge, loved ones, but give room for God’s wrath—for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” says Adonai. 
Which means God has to do nothing at all – because the sinner is convicted by his own sin
------------------------

ROb PP" But the contest is within boundaries of control, so the human is left fairly to either powers.
Dave" Absolutely correct
ROb" True , the same applies to the Opposer.
OH – so you teach that your satan can repent – just how would that rewrite the end times prophesies

Dave" I agree – Either God is using satan to oppose Himself
ROb" Mock on.
Dave" Robert has completely flip his view of satan
\Rob\ " No I haven't.

Sept 29, 2023 6:51:22 GMT -5 rob said:

ROb" I see God is in control, even of his opponent. But the contest is within boundaries of control, so the human is left fairly to either powers. You are assuming the opposed obeys freely from love, is hardly the case. The opposer obeys because his powers are limited and controlled by God at all times.

I mock – because say one thing on Thursday and deny it on Friday
I MOCK because you cannot seriously present both views att the same time
Either God is in control – as Judaeo-Christiuanity teaches
Or your satan rebels against God, hates, and opposes God – as Ellen White teaches

See Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
So an elohiym power knows BOTH good and evil.
The only way to achieve this is for the creature to sin.
Now you teach that God and all the angels sin
They must – or they wouldn't know tov and ra - your logic

PS - Looking at Greek word satanas - Strong's Greek 4567
Explain why this Greek word comes in three forms? Does this mean you have three creatures? Or perhaps the suffix is just changing the stem word slightly as a nuance?
You really are going out on a limb with your strict meaning to some Greek grammar over the stem word. 

See you really need to learn to translate – so you wont embarrass yourself
It is called a declension – they way the word is spelled means more than it place in a sentence.

θεός = God , Nominative subject
θεοu = possession, my, mine, his, yours, of - Genetive
θεόi = in, into, within God – or indirect object - Dative
θεόv = God as a direct object - Accusative

Σατανᾶς — 17x- Nominative singular masculine - subject
Σατανᾶ — 12x – Genitive singular masculine - possession, my, mine, his, yours, of
σατανᾶ — 1x - Vocative singular masculine – with force “HEY YOU”
Σατανᾷ — 2x – Dative singular masculine - in, into, within – indirect object
Σατανᾶν — 4x – Accusitive singular masculine - direct object

I have explained this to you before – posted a declension chart here for you to see – do you not pay attention 

[rob]

SOme research I did, regarding your view.....From the website Quora

First a Rabbi who supports Dave's view of things:-

Rabbi Valadez
I am a Rabbi and I live in Jerusalem Author has 3.1K answers and 1.1M answer
Who is Satan? Who is Lucifer? And why are they at times viewed as one entity?

Satan according to Judaism is the angel in charge of three things. He works for God and does The Will of The Creator. He is in fact the most elevated angel without a body. Only a human soul is higher in angelic terms.

1) He is the evil inclination, meaning his job is to test man. He is the angel of free will.
2) He is the adversary or witness against those people who fail the test.
3) He is the angel of punishment known as the angel of death.
In fact the Satan is given this job because he is the angel of Divine Honor. He wants man to succeed and honor The Creator, but also wishes to purge all imperfections from creation and destroy it because it is not perfect and it dishonors The Creator by being imperfect. He wants humans to succeed because if they did The Creator would be honored.


Rob" Dave would love this Gnostic Rabbi comment.
I disagree that the world is imperfect naturally. God would never do such a thing.
I disagree that the Opposer is really wanting mankind to honor God and thus not sin.

Lucifer as the Christians speak of it is not part of Judaism. Judaism has no fallen angels. The Bnai Elohim were the sons of the pre-flood nobility. Elohim means nobility in Hebrew and refers to those who rule with authority. Judges are reffered to as Elohim in Hebrew. The Nephalim are another term for the children of these people because they “fell” from their righteousness. It also refers to the fact they ‘spilt’ seed and caused it to fall on the ground.


Rob" How does this Rabbi get the idea that Elohim means "nobility" ? What about Gen 3:22?

This is not a reference to any angels. If it were the angels would be called Ophanim because in Hebrew The name Elohim is associated with The Chayot which are the angels associated with the Hebrew term Elohim. Therefore the “children” of this angelic realm would be the Ophanim. The wheel angels.
Rob" Typical languge, slang and idioms a layperson cannot udnerstand>
The wheel angels are mentioned by various prophets as being the guardians of Prophecy and they are always seen by a Prophet as he ascends the prophetic meditation. They are symbolic of the spiritual quality of natural laws created by God that are repetitive and normally govern the world.

To say that natural law chose to rebel against The Creator is based on pagan beliefs based on Pantheism. In Jewish theology this is impossible.

Rob" How can natural law choose to rebel against GOD?

The word lucifer is not Hebrew. The idea of an angel choosing independently of The Creator anything at all is actually a form of idolworship in Jewish theology. If an angel were capable of doing this they would be a minor deity. Its not Monotheism. Even humans can only choose a path to the ultimate end because Divine Will creates multiple paths towards harmonious existence. Its the ability to choose one of many roads to the same place of harmony. Harmony in Hebrew is called Shalem. That is why Jerusalem’s original name was Shalem and later it was named to Yireh-Shalem. Yireh Shalem means ‘Harmony will be seen’. Its a prophecy of the end of time. The Time of Harmony between all creations that will result in true happiness.


Rob" ??

Lucifer and Satan are viewed as one entity in Christianity because Christianity has four deities. The Trinity and The Devil. It has a 3 part deity with an opponent that can defy it. This multipart deity as a creator can be defied by angels as well as partly killed in its human form. That means the christian gods are in a sort of conflict.

Rob" THis Rabbi opposes any trinity notion.

This was adapted from the Greco Roman Pantheon as well as the Titan story and the Egyptian mythos and incorporated into a new demi-god called lucifer. Lucifer led the giant-angels to fight the creator and has his own pantheon. The 3 deities can be defied, killed when in human form, and speak through people in spirit form but have a pantheon of demi-gods called angels to fight Satan. The two forces are interlocked in a war for control which the 3 gods will eventually win, but have not done so thus far. It will happen, according to christianity and then the men who fight on their behalf will be rewarded. Thus according to christianity the 3 deities that are not strong enough to prevent rebellion or death will defeat the undying Demi-God capable of defying them and causing their death and their followers to leave them using men's acceptance of them. Christianity can be said to be a sort of war between pantheons that is won by empowering the deities through humanity's acceptance of one pantheon over another. On one side the “trinity" empowered by acceptance of its weakened human form and on the other side lucifer empowered by people not listening to the “trinity".

Rob" God is powerful to control EVIL angels, but because sin happened first, has a problem with being a dictator over the free will for other sinless creatures.
The Rabbi does not consider this idea?

Lucifer/fallen ones vs. creator/spirits/man god is essentially the same as all forms of paganism. Its the way Judaism was introduced to the Romans and adapted to Roman needs by the early christians. But its not Judaism its paganism under a new name, Christianity. In fact Christianity could be called the worship of satan because christianity established the concept of satan being able to defy its primary deity.

Rob" This rabbi calls Christianity the worship of Satan, is really weird?

Lucifer is the term for evil in Christianity because Christianity does not teach that God is the source of all things including the hidden good that is called evil. According to christianity evil is created by an evil deity know as satan that actually has the power to defy The Creator. aka an evil version of The Creator.


Rob" So this rabbi sees even EVIL as something designed by GOD? Now it getting even more weird?

Confident that you are a monotheist? Well I will go further in the analogy. If someone can rebel against a deity and they can cause that deity to temporarily die are they a deity or the deity is simply just a powerful mortal fradulently claiming to be a deity. Since rebbelion is by definition able to counteract the will of said creator when forced to obey, what kind of relationship does that creator actually have with Lucifer. They would be partners in creation. Good and Evil as the two creations fighting for domination.


Rob" Clearly this Rabbi speaks like a fool. The Bibke explains the reason why Jesus died to redeem sinning humans,

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

THis is written in the moral law since all eternity, long before a human existed, and even sinning existed. God does not tolerate imperfection, or a mischief maker causing imperfect to another creature. The penalty for this is life for life. Not possible for a creature to do, and live.

Only a divine being could die and later live, and thus satisfy this law.
Hence good and evil are NOT partners in Creation, as Gnosticism claims.
The Rabbi has not studied his torah clearly, off the track.

Two roots with two trees with two fruits tended by two gardeners in one garden. That is christianity.

Rob" correct. And it's Biblical. Proof us wrong.

The angels are by definition the manifestation of The Divine Will in Judaism. They aren't independent in any way. They are automatons that work to channel Divine will gradually through the heavens and the earth. They can't change anything. They can't fall unles they are told they must fall. They are called wheels and thrones and chariots and swords and all manner of things because that's how they function at that time.

ROb" If angels are robots, how does God enjoy relational love? Not possible. God alone would be lonely as Adam was. Clearly the Rabbi does not read Genesis which describes the power of God and the Godhead, as Romans 1:20 explains.

Satan is the angel of free will. He gives the option to disobey, testifies against you if you disobey, and punishes you if you disobey.

Rob" What? If the opposer angel has free will, , testifies against you if you disobey, and punishes you if you disobey.

Are angels allowed to judge and punish sinners?

Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

So is this messenger the Ha-Satan Angel?

Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

How can a Rabbi contradict the NT message?

This messenger who forgives sin, has to be the Messiah, who is a divine member of GOD, His Son.

But our Rabbi rejects a Father and a Son as both divine.


But if a person obeys he keeps on elevating the person by forcing him to step up to a higher level. Then at the end of the person's life it is Satan that testifies the person was a Satan (adversary) to sin.

The satan opposes you in many ways so that you can become an angel of Divine Honor as he is. That is the reason for his tests, testimony, and punishment of humans. Its all to force you to oppose sin. And at the end if you fail he burns the sin away from you until you are pure of it. That is the only job he has and the only job he can do. Oppose sin for Divine Honor.

Rob" SO this angel is an opposer to humans, so the humans learn to oppose sin. What bunk.

So there is no record of the opposer angel killing humans? Really Rabbi, ....
Who killed Job's children? The human enemies, or the opposing angel?

LUCIFER is the christian god of evil. In christianity the term Satan means the adversary of the christian deity, not of man. That my friends is just nonsense, if a deity can be opposed in such manner then it is not a deity.

Rob" ??

The real Creator is called One in the biblical text. Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One and only, without parts (Ehad in Hebrew).

Rob" That's funny a wifes nakedness is the husband's nakedness, also called one.
How does GOD demonstrate relational love, with robotic angels around the cardinally one Being?

Nuff Said.
-----------------------------------------Now a Catholic view ----
John Young

I'm an evolved Catholic now worshipping trees. Love is God.Author has 3.6K answers and 21.8M answer views
Things aren’t always as simple as they seem. Lucifer was one of the archangels, and considered the most beautiful of all heaven’s angels. His name means “Bearer of Light.”

Satan, in the modern Christian sense, is a sadistic, intrinsically evil supernatural person, so evil it has to be pronounced “e-ville,” who runs hell and makes sure everyone gets tortured properly. This is his job through all eternity. It’s like managing a Wal-mart, I expect.
Rob" What bunk. The opposer is not supernatural nor capable of making humans get tortured.

This evil super-boss makes no sense to me. The archangels were the holiest of God’s creations, made by Him, never exposed to human beings (let’s presume they were made shortly after the Big Bang, 13.7 billion years ago, while humans never existed until maybe two million years ago at the outside.)

Rob" What bunk. SO Catholics support evolution?

And Spirit has no physical form or pain nerves; Spirit is eternal, indestructible, and has nothing to fear. For one such Spirit to develop a sado-machistic obsession with tormenting biological life-forms made of goo, yet which have little wispy souls - it is completely illogical.

Rob" This Catholic finds his religion completely illogical?

Actually, let’s talk history. A couple thousand years ago, there was no such thing as Christianity. A thousand years before that, its parent religion, Judaism, was just getting underway in a sex-hostile, guilt-rent sheepherding society. (I’ve often wondered whether the guilt was related somehow to the sheep.)

Rob" mocking?

Through the millenia, a sombre valley called Sheol near Jerusalem developed into a gloomy Jewish afterlife, then can be seen to develop in Christianity into the modern hell; and likewise, a personification of evil developed over a very long time and linked to the single Biblical use of the term Lucifer.

Rob" Sheol is not some gloomy afterlife, Catholic bunk.

In context, however, this one reference was probably not to a person, but to Babylon, whose people had held the Hebrews in slavery before their own empire fell. For Jews of the day, seeing Babylon as evil personified would have been no great leap.

Early Christian leaders could hardly have failed to notice that fear is a strong motivator, and people who are in fear will pay more, attend more faithfully, and beg for their souls more strongly than those not in fear. Thus, the myth of Satan and hell became staunch teachings. The backstory created for Satan was as I stated at the top: this Light-Bearer name must have been his Archangel name until he rebelled against God, traded in his white feathers for the red suit, horns, and tail, and became *snap* a sadistic master tormentor and leader of tormentors.

Rob" ..Catholic bunk. Not a shred of evidence in the torah

This cancer has twisted Christianity into a system consisting of stark doctrine and judgmental dogma no more fruitful than the hundreds of weird (to me) laws of the Jewish faith. Did Jesus want the judgments and the stonings? Not at all. Then, why is that what they give him?

Rob This catholic hates both Jewish and Catholic teachings.

Perhaps to control the masses and make more money from them. Perhaps the peasantry themselves desired such stories - what a thrill to imagine themselves as prizes in a cosmic struggle, giving meaning to drab lives.

And perhaps because humans themselves are prone to violent, larcenous, and otherwise antisocial behaviour; personifying these negative behaviours as “the devil” gave people a scapegoat upon whom to lay their own sins and failings.
So in regards to your question: I would say no. Lucifer and Satan are two archetypes of rebellion, the first positive and a reflection of every teenager’s self-liberation from the overlordship of his parents as a condition of “growing up;” and Satan, as an archetype of evil, the specific opposite of love and empathy.

Lucifer can be regarded as an archangel who required his own freedom from having to worship God, making him still beautiful, like Geraldine, and also independent. There are pagans today who claim to worship Lucifer, not as an evil figure, but as an independent thinker valuing not only his own freedom to think for himself, but ours as well.

Satan, I would argue, is a specifically man-made character, kind of an anti-matter Santa Claus, who like Santa serves a certain purpose in some peoples’ world view. Satan is an object of Christian obsession at times bordering on a perverse kind of worship. This view of Satan twists, I think, Christianity and distorts it into a dualist religion. If Satan has equal claim on your soul and mine, and will reign over (and/or share) the torments of billions forever and ever, then he is for all practical purposes a God, the opposite of the ‘good’ one, no matter how Christian apologists attempt to wiggle out of this conclusion.


Rob" weird. My view of the Opposer is very different to this view posted here.

I post these to help Dave and support this view with others.

Now I look forward to some scholar who agrees with you.

Satanas is different to Satan.

Shalom
-------------------------------------

Greetings Dave

Dave" There is already enough human error within scripture - adding another layer from someone who cannot even translate is too outragious to be serious
ROb" Hmm? Maybe, the alternative is to live in confusion, and do nothing about trying to understand salvation in Jesus.

Dave" Whats wrong with the documents I posted – just for you
Then I sent you a personal message in the hopes you would read it over before posting – guess NOT
ROb" I posted a Rabbi here who supports your view, from Quora.

You need to copy and paste or link me to some scholar who agrees with your Satanas / Satan word, because I find nobody who agrees with you.

Here is a lengthy response, is there a difference between satanas and satan:-
hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/19137/is-there-a-difference-between-the-devil-and-satan-in-the-synoptic-gospels#:~:text=Every%20usage%20is%20translated%20by%20ESV%20%22the%20devil%22,the%20article%20except%20when%20vocative%20%28%CF%83%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BD%E1%BE%B6%CF%82%20only%29.%203

Is there a difference between "the devil" and "Satan" in the Synoptic Gospels?
While answering a question about the words σατανᾶς (satanas, Satan – transliterated from Hebrew śāṭān) and διάβολος (diabolos, devil) in the New Testament, I ran into another question for which I have no answer: is there any distinction between these two words?

For the purposes of this question I’m going to limit this to the Synoptic Gospels, although I note that both words appear throughout the NT. A few empirical observations about their usage in the Synoptics:
Διάβολος appears 11 times; σατανᾶς 15 times.
Mark only uses σατανᾶς. Matthew and Luke use both without any clear numerical preference.
Matt: 6x διάβολος; 4x σατανᾶς
Mark: 0x διάβολος; 6x σατανᾶς
Luke: 5x διάβολος; 5x σατανᾶς
Every usage is translated by ESV "the devil" (διάβολος) or "Satan" (σατανᾶς) and, at least arguably, refers to the same being.1,2
Both occur almost exclusively with the article except when vocative (σατανᾶς only).3
Did the Synoptic writers intend to convey any distinction between διάβολος and σατανᾶς?

1. As opposed to the usage of διάβολος to mean “slanderer”, as it does a few times in the epistles; διάβολος to mean “adversary”, as it does throughout the LXX; or σατανᾶ(ς) to mean “adversary”, as it does on its rare occurrence in the LXX.

2. Only, "ὕπαγε ὀπίσω μου, σατανᾶ·” ("Get behind me, Satan!” – Matt 4:10, Mark 8:33) stands out as an exception, but one imagines (well, I do) that the reference to said being is still present in the word here.

3. The exception is Luke 22:3, "Εἰσῆλθεν δὲ σατανᾶς εἰς Ἰούδαν...”
----------
Clearly No Distinction of Being
Your core question is "Did the Synoptic writers intend to convey any distinction between διάβολος and σατανᾶς?"
If by "distinction," you mean differing personalities (i.e. persons or beings), then I believe you have already answered your own question by noting the fact that Matthew and/or Luke uses διάβολος in places where Mark used σατανᾶς to refer to the same events and therefore the same being. To quote your comment:
Parable of the sower: Matt. 13:39 // Mark 4:15 // Luke 8:12. Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness: Matt. 4:1ff //Mark 1:13 // Luke 4:2ff.
Additionally, you have already noted as well in your original question that the LXX uses διάβολος in place of σατανᾶς in its translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. So the equation of the terms as a reference for the same being was already established prior to the writing of any of the gospels.
So the question must not really be about a distinction of differing personalities, as the evidence clearly points to an equation of the one personality involved being referenced by both words.
So Distinction of What?
Instead, the question really must be why was not a single designation used in the Synoptics (or any part of NT Scripture) to refer to this being? Or to recast the main question: What distinction did the Synoptic writers intend to convey between διάβολος and σατανᾶς? That is, if not a distinction of the personality of Satan, why use a different term in some, but not necessarily all, cases?

Certainly the choice of the LXX translators to use the translation διάβολος rather than to transliterate σατανᾶς had some influence on the gospel writers, for at the least it was an earlier equation of the words used to reference the same being.

But since two of the gospel writers do interchange the usage of the terms, do they intend any distinction in the passages since they choose to use one versus the other designation?

I think Cale's answer, while severely deficient in argument, is on the correct track. The term διάβολος, besides being a native Greek term (rather than a transliteration of a Hebrew term and thus a term that may have to be explained to Gentile Greek speakers), conveyed a specific type of adversarial relation, a slanderer. Now here we need to look at an English definition to help know what the Greek lexicons mean in their English definition of the Greek term. The Oxford dictionary definition of slander is:

The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation

So διάβολος is an adversary that works by means of not merely accusing (or generally opposing), but while accusing is also lying about the one accused. Why did the LXX translators choose this term? Because of the Hebrew Scripture context and the desire to be more explicit.1

The book of Job uses the term the most (which book I and many others take as one of the oldest of the writings found in the Hebrew Scriptures, but its dating is debated). Note the context of use in that book:

Job is already declared righteous by the writer 1:1) and this is declared to be YHWH's opinion of him (1:8), even after the first round of testing (2:3).
But Satan says otherwise than God of Job (1:9-10, 2:4-5).
We are even told in 2:3 that God rebukes Satan, stating "although you [Satan] incited Me against him [Job], to destroy him without cause" (NKJV; emphasis added). From God's perspective, Satan was slanderously accusing Job, not just factually accusing him. So for the LXX translators here, διάβολος was an excellent choice for a contextual translation of the Hebrew שָׂטָן.

The context in Zech 3:1-5 also shows that Satan's opposition was unfounded against Joshua the high priest, for Satan was rebuked for his opposition (v.2).

The use of διάβολος in 1 Chr 21:1 would be a forgone conclusion by the LXX translators since the more detailed passages mentioning Satan they had already determined διάβολος was a good translation. Arguably, the idea of slander is much further in the background of 1 Chr 21:1, and so the context there alone would not have lent itself as well to choosing διάβολος if that verse were in isolation.

Yet even so, the context still suggests an idea of slander. Joab's reaction to David was this in 1 Chr 21:3 (NKJV):

And Joab answered, “May the LORD make His people a hundred times more than they are. But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord’s servants? Why then does my lord require this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt in Israel?”

Joab's reply clues the reader in that part of the apparent reasoning that David called for the census was to find out who was really his servants. That is, David had likely been recipient of some type of slanderous reports about the people of Israel (i.e., the moving of Satan), and wanted an accounting of who was really on his side. Joab tried to assure him all the people were, but David insisted on continuing. So even in this passage, Satan's work is hinted to have a slanderous aspect in making David doubt the congregation of Israel.2

So back to the question of what may be intended by the distinction for the gospel writers. Three main ideas come to mind, but I lean toward the last the most:

Obviously, it could be purely stylistic—for variety. Matthew and Luke may simply have chose to switch between terms to help with the monotony of using one term. In this case, no real "distinction" at all is intended; διάβολος is purely a translation of שָׂטָן when they desired to put the translation rather than the σατανᾶς transliteration. I consider this to be the least likely option.
Building on #1, they may have chosen to use both terms with the idea that two audiences were in view: those more familiar with Hebrew and those more familiar with Greek, or at least more familiar with Hebrew scripture or the LXX translation thereof. The interchange of the usage would broadly help each group to key to the fact that this is the same creature being discussed. It both maintains the Hebrew term via transliteration, while continuing the LXX tradition of using the more explicit διάβολος to correctly note the idea of slander in the adversarial role of this being.
Building on #2, it may be that Matthew and Luke switch between the two terms intentionally to more specifically emphasize (rather than broadly, as #2 holds) a distinction between the adversarial role more generally (σατανᾶς; Satan) and the slanderous role in that adversarial role more explicitly (διάβολος; Devil) in the particular passages. However, closer examination indicates this may have a nuanced purpose, and so...
Building on #3, there is a definite preference (not 100%) in Matthew and Luke to use διάβολος in their own narration and σατανᾶς when Christ is speaking. This indicates that σατανᾶς was primarily what Christ used and they are simply reporting that, whereas διάβολος is their own preferred way to refer to Satan. Note the evidence:

Matthew

Satan (σατανᾶς) used only in Christ's speech: 4:10; 12:26; 16:23.
Devil (διάβολος) used in author narration: 4:1, 5, 8, 11 (the only use of Satan in chapter 4 is in the direct address spoken by Christ in v.10). Christ
Devil used in Christ's speech: 13:39; 25:41.

Luke
Satan used in Christ's speech: 4:8; 10:18; 11:18; 13:16; 22:31.
Satan used in author narration: 22:3.
Devil used in author narration: 4:2, 3, 5, 6, 13 (again, Satan used in this passage only in the quotation of Christ's direct address).
Devil used in Christ's speech: 8:12.

Mark
Satan used in Christ's speech: 3:23; 3:26; 4:15; 8:33.
Satan used in author narration: 1:13.

So if Matthew and Luke prefer Devil in narration, and Christ apparently preferred Satan in his speech, any clue to the distinctive use would reside in the atypical uses.

Let us start with Luke. Why would Luke choose Satan over Devil in narration at 22:3? I think the answer goes back to the base distinction of #3, that when Satan enters Judas, it is not for purposes directly related to slandering, but directly opposing Christ through betrayal. So διάβολος does not fit the context.
Both Luke (8:12) and Matthew (13:39) report Christ in his explanation of the parable of the sower as using "devil," rather than Satan; while Mark still uses Satan (4:15). This is the only place in Luke Christ is said to use the term, and one of only two in Matthew. Context shows that #3 idea likely holds, for the word of God is what is sown, and the use of "devil" strongly hints that the removal of the word from the hearts of the hearers is by means of slander. Mark's use of Satan is either because he preferred only that term (arguably the case) and so changed it, or that Christ had perhaps said something like "that devil, Satan, comes and...," so Mark chose one word, Matthew and Luke another.

Matthew's other place where Christ uses devil is in 25:41, where Christ says "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Context again warrants Christ's switch based on the #3 proposition, for the punishment is linked to the activity (slander) by using "devil," which activity also relates to "his angels" (i.e. his messengers... those who carry his slander abroad).

So #4 appears the most likely explanation to me. Christ normally used Satan as the designation, as a name, but occasionally wished to focus on his activity of slandering. Narrators that did use devil normally were focused on his activity (the bulk in the temptation passage of Christ, where Satan is slandering God's ways and word), but Luke also used the term in the one place where slander was not the main form of opposition.

Conclusion
It is evident that no distinction of being is present in the exchange of terms. If the variation is not simply a variation for stylistic purposes between using translation and transliteration, then the distinction is either

intended to help the audience broadly to equate the Greek idea of διάβολος to the Hebrew שָׂטָן based on the contextual evidence from the Hebrew scriptures that such is a good translation for his activities, i.e. that the Satan is a slanderer, or
intended to specifically emphasize slander in the passages where διάβολος is used, without meaning to lose the adversarial idea (since slander is that) and yet without meaning to indicate a different being is in view either, or
intended to reveal Christ's preference for using Satan and those narrators preference for using the descriptive devil, but still with sensitivity to switching as appropriate for context as #2 postulates.
Having analyzed the passages more carefully, I think #3 is very sustainable as to what the distinction intended was for Matthew and Luke.
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ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/608/nt-satanas-vrs-hebrew-satan?page=1&scrollTo=9321

You could have supplied this link rather than ramble and mock, with date stamp??
You post lots of articles and passages. Long and hard to read, but I am reading it.

Daves articles "In 1:10, Satan accuses God of building a hedge around Job to protect him"
ROb" is this not the Opposer opposing God, ie accuse

Daves articles " Because Joshua/Israel appears before God and the satan, Day suggests that “the heavenly council has convened.”[28]


ROb" How does Day make this verse into a heavenly council? It's a sanctuary with a high priest.

Daves articles " In John 13, Satan slanders Jesus: “The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray [Jesus] . . . Satan entered into him” (13:2, 27; see also Lk 22:3). For the first time in the Bible, Satan is prompting a person to sin. Far from acting as the agent of God, Satan seems to be attempting to undermine God,
Rob" Not helping your cause is this?

Daves articles " In the book of Revelation, however, Satan is an entirely different character.
ROb" You bold this, hoping it scholarly evaluates the Satanas as a different being, which the article does not.

Dave" If you try to force Hebrew satan and the Beast of Revelation together as one and the same being - then you must aslo teach - the Bible itself does not provide a consistent view
Rob" Why not assume the Opposer is no prosecutor and all other pieces fall into place?

Dave" So why borrow the Chaldean word satanas into the NT?
ROb" Can you answer this question with some scholar?

Dave" OT Hebrew satan – is an office – a function – anyone serving in that role is a satan
OT Hebrew satan = an angel of the Lord – in service to the Lord
ROb" How quickly you change, the Word means to "oppose or opposing or Opposer"
Why are you undoing all the work I discussed with you and you agree with me.

Dave" NT satanas – was NOT created directly – from the male Right Hand (as in God said let there be)
Rob" SO your God made some fundamental mistake? Can GOD, all knowing allow a flawed created creature, who sins, but is still called TOV? Really Dave.

Dave" Gnostic texts say the BEAST was created by God – but not from the male Right Hand (Christ) – but from the feminine Left Hand (Holy Spirit)
Rob" In other words GOD created a mistake, made a flawed creature, the left hand.
Dave" Why did God created a flawed world?

Answer – according to God’s Law of Nature – Entropy is required for nature to function

ROb" Your answer is foolish, Can't GOD create a perfect world without flaws and without a mistake from His left hand?

Your God must be less than almighty, unable to tell the right hand from his left hand?


Dave" Gen 1:1 – God created heaven and earth
2nd law of Thermodynamics – Entropy – consumes – wears things down – corrupts
ROb" Really Dave, God created entropy on purpose naturally.

Dave" Why did God created a flawed world?
Answer – it is not flawed – it is functional – finely tuned in cycles of Entropy – no matter what scale – or when – or when we look – Rom 1:1-20 / Psa 19:2
ROb" Really Dave, now you really are Gnostic and no longer a Bible student.
Why don't you consider your flawed world as a consequence of sin? Because you do not have any sin causing the 2nd law of Thermodynamics , or entropy, or darkness, these things are natural agents God created naturally, including an agent of RA, from the left hand, a mystery creation.

SO natural decomposition and natural death, is a clear result of entropy, nothing to do with the consequence of sin. Part of your flawed world.

Dave" Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness (choshek): I make peace, and create evil (ra): I the LORD do
ROb" No mention of why Dave? No mention of Sin.

Dave" Why did God created a flawed world?
Answer – it is not flawed – it is functional - the only flaw within creation = the choshek – Darkness – Ignorance --- ignorance of the truth – ignorance of the Creator
ROb" so darkness naturally exists? No consequence from some sin before? No you have no sinning happening in you Creation, all the flawed world is created by God intentionally, finely tuned to be GOOD.

Entropy of thought - The Hypostasis of the Archons (Gnostic)
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety.
ROb" ANd this Gnostic passage is not about SIN, only darkness and ignorance. How clever you are to remove the first SIN from the universe.

Dave GNostic passage" And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
ROb" So the Sin of Eve was planned to bring God's glory?

Did GOD control Eve's free will? Was Eve allowed to make a free will choice alone on her own?

Did the serpent tempt Eve to make her choice differently from choosing God, to choosing the Serpent's religion, live by self, than you will be like the Most High, knowing good and evil, and live on a higher existence than you have now.

Dave" Who is the son that stayed home – angels – created to serve and praise – without free will
Who is the son that leaves home – man
ROb" Who is making a poetry simile?

The angels are sons arn't they, also have free will to choose to leave buy didn't leave? The foolish son left instead.

You make similes but do not stretch parallels that far, do you? So the son who remained had no free will?

Dave" The question, for me as a man, is if there is a God and an afterlife, and I do eventually meet my maker; will I be able to look Him straight in the eye and shake His hand, or will I be ashamed and embarrassed for who I really am?
ROb" The question God will ask every human, what did you do with my powers flowing in you?
----------------------------------------

Dave" If you are completely unable to click on the date stamp - you could look at the main menu of this forum - but it would require one click - way too complicted
ROb" I hope I read your posted articles

1) I found no scholar commenting upon satanas as a different creature to Satan?


Dave" This thread was started for you to prove to us that your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God
ROb" ANd I have done this.

Now I am asking you for your scholar who proves the Satanas is a different creature to Satan, so I can discuss the NT cases of the Opposer.

You are holding up my opposer proof. There is only 3 cases of the Opposer in the OT, but many in the NT.

I have discussed the OT many times using different ways, all of them you ignore.

Dave" You make God a man - you limit Him - make boundaries for Him - deny that He can be in two places at the same time -
ROb Psalm 131 says do not think of hard matters. You do not understand GOD better than me, we ponder things we do not understand.

Dave" your god cannot even love by himself
ROb" How can one person show love to himself? Would this be love? An earthworm can provide and respond to itself, in matters, even sex itself, when no other worm is around in the soil. Would this be love? Not as the Bible defines love. DO you enjoy making your religion weird?

Can you have a self relationship by yourself? Would this be enjoyable?
Why was Adam lonely, He had GOD for a friend.

Answer that question Dave? Romans 1:20

Dave" Because your post are childish – you claim to be highly educated
ROb" You read Greek

Heb 13:15 By <dia> him <autos> therefore <oun> let us offer <anaphero> the sacrifice <thusia> of praise <ainesis> to God <theos> continually <diapantos>, that is <toutesti>, the fruit <karpos> of our lips <cheilos> giving thanks <homologeo> to his <autos> name <onoma>.

16 But <de> to do good <eupoiia> and <kai> to communicate <koinonia> forget <epilanthanomai> not <me>: for <gar> with such <toioutos> sacrifices <thusia> God <theos> is well pleased <euaresteo>.

What does koinonia mean? Something relational?

DaVE" YES I MOCK YOUR FLIP FLOPPY THEOLOGY
Which is it – Rom 1:19 uncovers God’s creation
Or is God’s creation is fallen and changed - flawed
Rob" I see GOD creating a perfect Creation for mankind, over a earth that had already experienced sin, due to fallen angels bamished there. So earth was finely tuned to handle RA and TOV, and this is the darkness from the sinning angels, a consequence of their sin.

When Adam sinned as prince over creation, the ground was cursed, so God withdraw his powers from Creation somewhat.... I would not call this a flawed world, but a spoiled one, due to the curse from God because of sin entering God's creation for Adam and Eve.

Dave" LIFE IS HARD – and GOD made it that way
Why is life hard – because true repentance comes from grief and heart ache
Rob " Again no mention of Adam's sin and God responding to Adam's sin, ie curse.

Dave" Thus the conversation about this reality being a hologram - an illusion
ROb" Must you go into deep things? But no mention of SIN, which is the real reason why GOD creates RA.

Dave" God is not a NATURAL creature – nor a created thing
Rob" Correct, but we see GOD darkly and we are made in His image. What's an image? Romans 1:20

What does Romans 1:20 say about Creation revealing to us the power of the Godhead ?

According to Dave, nothing.

Dave" NO YOU DO NOT MR SERIOUS – the HS is NOT GOD #1 according to you it is another god #2
ROb" Pardon me, but your words...."that expanded from God – went out from God – was with God "

Is the same idea as John 1:1,

is the Father and the Son two persons of love?

No, according to Dave.
Yes, according to Rob.

How does Gen 3:20 read? Who is "us" that knows both tov and ra? Can't be angels, they do not know tov and ra, only tov, because they choose not to sin.

Adam is elohiym, and how many persons of loving are in the word Adam-elohiym? At least two, if not three, father, mother and son.

Now try to discuss this verse.

Dave" Sorry Robert – I do not have two gods

Rob" Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
THis moral law existed from eternity, before any creature sinned. There was only one elohiym power, who is ruling over the sinless creatures.

One day an angel reasoned, why this command? What do I have to do to become this opposing elohiym power?

And the rest is history.

Question: how many true elohiym power is there? One

Is this so hard for Dave to fathom?

How many mountains is Mt Sinai? Dy Kim Young photographed the mountain, and shows us, ONE.

But how many peaks are there on the mountain?
Dr Kim shows us two.

Water is made of two masculine atoms and one feminine atom, as one moecule.
Is understanding Rom1:20 so hard?

DAVE" Instead the archon - are still in league - with the 13 families that rule the worLd
Instead the archon infect education - both darwinism and creationism
Instead the archon infect religious leaders - not all - just an important few
rob" true

Dave" Ponder this -
I consider homosexuality to be a ra - why because it is opposite of be fruitful and multiply
ROb" I consider self abuse an attack upon love as relational. Gay love is not relational. Not as the love God designed, ie provider love and responder love.

But they invent self love, corrupted love and this destroys relational love.

But Dave has no relational elohiym power?

Why isn't the Father lonely? Where is your relational love, the provider and responder and collector?

The most important quality of GOD is missing in your view.

Dave" God is either in control – or he struggles against your satan
Rob" God is either in control – but he struggles against sin. God loves sinners but hates sin. This is an oxymoron, but true.

Dave" Is it over? Has the Beast been thrown down to earth - or is that war still going on?
ROb" the war continues on earth, for just under 6000 years, cut short out of love.

Than a 1000 year Sabbath and judging the wicked, including angels that sinned, by the saints, without a Prosecutor by the way.

Than another judgement, by GOD against the wicked, again with no prosecutor.
Dave" your satan might even win

ROb" NO Dave, Satan lost when Satan wanted to kill Jesus on the Cross and keep Him in the second death for all eternity, but couldn't because Jesus never broke faith in His Father.
If you have one GOD, how do you have faith to yourself? Really Dave, you make no sense. Faith is relational, just as love is relational.
Dave" Now you teach that satan is a part of the Godhead?

Rob" No I don't. Sin never rises a second time.
Jesus retains the RA of SIN upon his biological body for all eternity. What love to die for sinners, and satisify the LAW

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Dave" If you say the 10 commandment exist eternally – then you deny scripture – Rom 4:15 Rom 5:13

ROb" Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

DIfficult passage Dave. Seems like Jews saw biologically they were inherited as under law, thus were saved by law? But the salvation system is based on faith, not deeds or inheritance of law.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin-offering entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin-offering was in the world: but sin-offering is not imputed when there is no law.

Regardless of my fixing the meaning of sin as sin-offering, we have the word "imputed"

How can sins be imputed? Without ceremonial laws, they can be imputed, hence such laws did not exist until Jesus spoke them to Adam, and also Moses.

But the moral law is based on faith and has existed from all eternity.

Ps 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful:
Ps 119:111 ¶ Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever:
Ps 119:142 ¶ Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Ps 119:144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting:
Ps 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.


In order to become an opposing false elohiym power, reasoned the chief angel, all I have to do is use my free will to miss faith and break from the powers of GOD flowing through me.

Such a command is written in Exodus 20:1, is all about this

Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Have no Saviour but Me.

So really this direction is about do not break faith with Me. Do not become proud. I am your relationship.


Dave" Correct – angels do not have Free Will
Rob" Eze 28:16 ....thou hast sinned: ..., O covering cherub

Tells me otherwise, clearly Dave you deny plain reading of Scripture.

Dave" To be an angel is to serve and praise (yester tov)
To be a BEAST – is to follow (yester ra) – be an animal
Man is the creature that can choose – we are both
ROb"

1) Why would God create creatures without free will?
2) Why would GOD limit love to only humans?
3) Explain why you have no relational loving with God and the angels?
4) How can angels minster to humans, if they do not experience love themselves?

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

You mock this verse, which say plainly Angels experience love and salvation from a saviour of love, they do not serve self, so wish to save humans from the same issues they also have experienced.

Dave" Because it is not scriptural
ROb" " Eze 28:16 ....thou hast sinned: ..., O covering cherub

Says otherwise

Dave"
Rom 12:19 Never take your own revenge, loved ones, but give room for God’s wrath—for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” says Adonai.
Which means God has to do nothing at all – because the sinner is convicted by his own sin
ROb" God will judge devil and his angels. For their sins.
Funny you say angels have no free will to sin.

You deny do many verses of Scripture.

DO you want me to list them again ?

Dave" OH – so you teach that your satan can repent – just how would that rewrite the end times prophesies
ROb" No , too late, killed Jesus, his fate is sealed because the LAW condemns the mischief maker.

Life for life, the law says. Jesus died, now it's Satans turn to die, life for life. AND so ends sinning angels.

Dave" I mock – because say one thing on Thursday and deny it on Friday
ROb" You do not understand my presentation.

Remember the gun, who empowers the atoms in the gun? God does.
WHo pulls the trigger to murder humans? The wicked man does, not God.

Simple really.

Dave" Now you teach that God and all the angels sin
They must – or they wouldn't know tov and ra - your logic
ROb" Really Dave.

Not all angels are elohiym powers. Most only know TOV and remain sinless
Some (1/3) chose to sin and thus are false elohiym powers, with the chief angel sinner.

Humans who are saved are also elohiym powers for eternity, like GOD are creatures who also know good and evil, and thus never will free will to choose arise a second time. Some angels who sinned and repented are also able to witness to the free will of choice.

Those who seared their conscience are lost, both angels and humans.

Dave" Σατανᾶς — 17x- Nominative singular masculine - subject
Σατανᾶ — 12x – Genitive singular masculine - possession, my, mine, his, yours, of
σατανᾶ — 1x - Vocative singular masculine – with force “HEY YOU”
Σατανᾷ — 2x – Dative singular masculine - in, into, within – indirect object
Σατανᾶν — 4x – Accusitive singular masculine - direct object

I have explained this to you before – posted a declension chart here for you to see – do you not pay attention
ROb" GO easy Dave, takes time to digest significance of new learning.
SO explain

2Co 12:7 kai th uperbolh twn apokaluyewn ina mh uperairwmai edoqh moi skoloy th sarki aggeloV satan "Σαταν" ina me kolajizh ina mh uperairwmai (TR)

Does this "Σαταν" exist in Greek Dave?

Help me to pay attention. Thanks.

Shalom

[Dave]

Daves articles " Because Joshua/Israel appears before God and the satan, Day suggests that “the heavenly council has convened.”[28]
ROb" How does Day make this verse into a heavenly council? It's a sanctuary with a high priest.

The Judge is there- the prosecutor is there – the advocate it there – and the defendant
You just use your word game so you do not have to understand

aves articles " In John 13, Satan slanders Jesus: “The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray [Jesus] . . . Satan entered into him” (13:2, 27; see also Lk 22:3). For the first time in the Bible, Satan is prompting a person to sin. Far from acting as the agent of God, Satan seems to be attempting to undermine God,
Rob" Not helping your cause is this?

If the Cross was always God’s Plan from the very beginning
Then satan here IS HELPING GOD’S PLAN UNFOLD!

Dave" If you try to force Hebrew satan and the Beast of Revelation together as one and the same being - then you must aslo teach - the Bible itself does not provide a consistent view
Rob" Why not assume the Opposer is no prosecutor and all other pieces fall into place?

Sure Robert – all you have to do is take 1 Chr21 / 2 Sam 24 / Zec 3 / the Book of Job / 1 Kings 22 / 2 cho 2:17 out of the Bible – rewrite so it mean what you want it to say to keep your Ellen White correct

Dave" OT Hebrew satan – is an office – a function – anyone serving in that role is a satan
OT Hebrew satan = an angel of the Lord – in service to the Lord
ROb" How quickly you change,
I have always said this

Dave" NT satanas – was NOT created directly – from the male Right Hand (as in God said let there be)
Rob" SO your God made some fundamental mistake? Can GOD, all knowing allow a flawed created creature, who sins, but is still called TOV? Really Dave.

Yes – God made man – who chose to sin
Yes – God is omniscient - and knew it would happen
Yes – God allowed it to happen – to reveal his power and glory

Rob" SO your God made some fundamental mistake?
Or

Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be
Jewish belief #2 – God test His people

Or
the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world,

Answer – according to God’s Law of Nature – Entropy is required for nature to function
ROb" Your answer is foolish, Can't GOD create a perfect world without flaws and without a mistake from His left hand?
God can probably create anything he wants – not talk fantasy – talking about our reality

Dave" Gen 1:1 – God created heaven and earth
2nd law of Thermodynamics – Entropy – consumes – wears things down – corrupts
ROb" Really Dave, God created entropy on purpose naturally.

In our reality – the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is God’s Law for nature – Rom 1:19-20
In our reality – without entropy – creation would be motionless – as soon as something moves – energy is exchanged – and it is always lost – higher to lower
In our reality – given enough time – everything will wind down and stop – Rom 1:19-20

Dave" Why did God created a flawed world?
Answer – it is not flawed – it is functional – finely tuned in cycles of Entropy – no matter what scale – or where – or when we look – Rom 1:1-20 / Psa 19:2
ROb" Really Dave, now you really are Gnostic and no longer a Bible student.
Why don't you consider your flawed world as a consequence of sin? Because you do not have any sin causing the 2nd law of Thermodynamics , or entropy, or darkness, these things are natural agents God created naturally, including an agent of RA, from the left hand, a mystery creation.

Jewish belief #1 – God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be
Jewish belief #2 – God test His people

SO natural decomposition and natural death, is a clear result of entropy, nothing to do with the consequence of sin. Part of your flawed world.

For the world correct – the cycle of life played out – over and over many times before Adam – and our museums are filled with the empirical evidence
Adam and Eve – were in a different location – an oasis called Eden – and the Tree of Life

Once man sinned – man was kicked out of the garden and no longer had access to the Tree of Life – so man died as all animals do

ave" Why did God created a flawed world?
Answer – it is not flawed – it is functional - the only flaw within creation = the choshek – Darkness – Ignorance --- ignorance of the truth – ignorance of the Creator
ROb" so darkness naturally exists? No consequence from some sin before?

The choshek of Gen 1:2 = Darkness / Ignorance
It is not a sin to be stupid – it is sad

No you have no sinning happening in you Creation, all the flawed world is created by God intentionally, finely tuned to be GOOD.

Sin did not enter the world until man
Man did not die until sin enter the world
Why did man sin – BECAUSE ALL MEN ARE SINNERS

Dave GNostic passage" And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
ROb" So the Sin of Eve was planned to bring God's glory?

Not planned – allowed
God knew that if he made a creature able to sin – it would

Did GOD control Eve's free will? Was Eve allowed to make a free will choice alone on her own?
DUH

Did the serpent tempt Eve to make her choice differently from choosing God, to choosing the Serpent's religion, live by self, than you will be like the Most High, knowing good and evil, and live on a higher existence than you have now.

Dave" Who is the son that stayed home – angels – created to serve and praise – without free will
Who is the son that leaves home – man
ROb" Who is making a poetry simile?

The parable of the Prodigal Son is the essence of Christianity

You make similes but do not stretch parallels that far, do you? So the son who remained had no free will?

The parable of the Prodigal Son is the essence of Christianity
You mock Christianity – you deny the NT
----------------------------------------

Dave" This thread was started for you to prove to us that your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God
ROb" ANd I have done this.
You have proven that you are willing to deny scripture to protect your Ellen White religion

Dave" You make God a man - you limit Him - make boundaries for Him - deny that He can be in two places at the same time -
ROb Psalm 131 says do not think of hard matters. You do not understand GOD better than me, we ponder things we do not understand.

So from your position of ignorance you are sure everyone else in the world is wrong – that really is ignorance

Dave" your god cannot even love by himself
ROb" How can one person show love to himself?
Correct – you deny that your god is NOT able to love his creation – needs help

Can you have a self relationship by yourself? Would this be enjoyable?
Why was Adam lonely, He had GOD for a friend.

Why does God desire the Prodigal Son more than the son that stayed home?

Heb 13:15 By <dia> him <autos> therefore <oun> let us offer <anaphero> the sacrifice <thusia> of praise <ainesis> to God <theos> continually <diapantos>, that is <toutesti>, the fruit <karpos> of our lips <cheilos> giving thanks <homologeo> to his <autos> name <onoma>.

16 But <de> to do good <eupoiia> and <kai> to communicate <koinonia> forget <epilanthanomai> not <me>: for <gar> with such <toioutos> sacrifices <thusia> God <theos> is well pleased <euaresteo>.

What does koinonia mean? Something relational?

Jer 1:5  “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” 

Dave" LIFE IS HARD – and GOD made it that way
Why is life hard – because true repentance comes from grief and heart ache
Rob " Again no mention of Adam's sin and God responding to Adam's sin, ie curse.
Gen 3:14-24 is because Eve sinned

Dave" God is not a NATURAL creature – nor a created thing
Rob" Correct, but we see GOD darkly and we are made in His image. What's an image? Romans 1:20

The image of God – Christ – Col 1:15

Dave" NO YOU DO NOT MR SERIOUS – the HS is NOT GOD #1 according to you it is another god #2
ROb" Pardon me, but your words...."that expanded from God – went out from God – was with God "

Is the same idea as John 1:1,

Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God – or NOT
Make up you mind – stop talking jibberish

Dave" Sorry Robert – I do not have two gods

Rob" Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
THis moral law existed from eternity, before any creature sinned. There was only one elohiym power, who is ruling over the sinless creatures.

That is exactly what I said – I do not have two gods
Only One true Creator – everything else is just creation

Question: how many true elohiym power is there? One
Is this so hard for Dave to fathom?
Why don’t you teach ONE – you have a pantheon of gods working tougher


Dave" Is it over? Has the Beast been thrown down to earth - or is that war still going on?
ROb" the war continues on earth, for just under 6000 years, cut short out of love.

And the answer is
There is no war / struggle in heaven between two gods
The war on earth as you call it = Gen 3:14-24
ESTABLISHED BY GOD

Dave" If you say the 10 commandment exist eternally – then you deny scripture – Rom 4:15 Rom 5:13

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin-offering entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin-offering was in the world: but sin-offering is not imputed when there is no law.

Regardless of my fixing the meaning of sin as sin-offering, we have the word "imputed"

How can sins be imputed? Without ceremonial laws, they can be imputed, hence such laws did not exist until Jesus spoke them to Adam, and also Moses.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT
Your concept that sin is a sacrifice to the LORD is satanic
and where there is no law there is sin – but IT IS NOT COUNTED AS SIN
as in choshek of Gen 1:2

Dave" Correct – angels do not have Free Will
Rob" Eze 28:16 ....thou hast sinned: ..., O covering cherub
Tells me otherwise, clearly Dave you deny plain reading of Scripture.
Yep - there is your two word Catholic invention

Dave" To be an angel is to serve and praise (yester tov)
To be a BEAST – is to follow (yester ra) – be an animal
Man is the creature that can choose – we are both
ROb"

1) Why would God create creatures without free will?
To reveal His wealth and glory
Butterflies are beautiful – creation is amazing

2) Why would GOD limit love to only humans?
Because humans are the creatures that can choose
God seek companionship – relationship

3) Explain why you have no relational loving with God and the angels?
Your are a parent – I hope you have two children – if you say you love one – why does it mean you do not love the other

4) How can angels minster to humans, if they do not experience love themselves?
Who says God doesn’t love His angels
Who says God doesn’t love the son that stayed home
The Prodigal Son gives God DIVINE JOY

Dave" Because it is not scriptural
ROb" " Eze 28:16 ....thou hast sinned: ..., O covering cherub
Yep – there is your two word Catholic invention

Dave" I mock – because say one thing on Thursday and deny it on Friday
ROb" You do not understand my presentation.
Say what you mean – and stick by your own words or stop talking

Dave" Σατανᾶς — 17x- Nominative singular masculine - subject
Σατανᾶ — 12x – Genitive singular masculine - possession, my, mine, his, yours, of
σατανᾶ — 1x - Vocative singular masculine – with force “HEY YOU”
Σατανᾷ — 2x – Dative singular masculine - in, into, within – indirect object
Σατανᾶν — 4x – Accusitive singular masculine - direct object

I have explained this to you before – posted a declension chart here for you to see – do you not pay attention
ROb" GO easy Dave, takes time to digest significance of new learning.
SO explain

2Co 12:7 kai th uperbolh twn apokaluyewn ina mh uperairwmai edoqh moi skoloy th sarki aggeloV satan "Σαταν" ina me kolajizh ina mh uperairwmai (TR)

Does this "Σαταν" exist in Greek Dave?

Proof that G4566 is just a transliteration of the Hebrew STN

Help me to pay attention. Thanks.
Paul also uses satanas G4567 in the rest of his writings
Proof – Paul new the difference
Proof it is not a literary slip up – because it is consistent throughout

[Dave]

Rabbi Valadez
Satan according to Judaism is the angel in charge of three things. He works for God and does The Will of The Creator. He is in fact the most elevated angel without a body. Only a human soul is higher in angelic terms.

1) He is the evil inclination, meaning his job is to test man. He is the angel of free will.
2) He is the adversary or witness against those people who fail the test.
3) He is the angel of punishment known as the angel of death.
In fact the Satan is given this job because he is the angel of Divine Honor.

Within Judaeo-Christianity – most angels do not ‘play center stage’ – few angels have a starring role = Michael the Warrior, Gabriel the message carrier, Uriel the record keeper – etc
To have a titled position – ‘Divine Honor” (Judaism)
To have a titled position – you are well known – famous (Dave)

He wants man to succeed and honor The Creator, but also wishes to purge all imperfections from creation and destroy it because it is not perfect and it dishonors The Creator by being imperfect. He wants humans to succeed because if they did The Creator would be honored.

Rob" Dave would love this Gnostic Rabbi comment.
I disagree that the world is imperfect naturally. God would never do such a thing.

Correct – you teach that all of God’s creation was altered by your satan – changed – taken over
Rom 1:19-20 can only revel satan handiwork
Psalms 19:2 the heavens declare satan’s handiwork
You give all your praise to the wrong god

I disagree that the Opposer is really wanting mankind to honor God and thus not sin.

The Jewish teaching =
The son that stays home – never worries about anything – life high on life – spends daddy’s credit card but has never worked a day in his life = a spoiled brat
The son that goes into the world realizes how nice they had it – realizes how hard life is – realizes how empty life in the world really is - He appreciates the Father

The Prodigal Son’s return gives the father Divine Joy
The Son that stayed home – whines like a spoiled child

Lucifer as the Christians speak of it is not part of Judaism. Judaism has no fallen angels.
Absolutely agree – the idea of fallen angels Ezk 28 Isa 14 is a Catholic invention that did not take shape until long after Jesus and His disciples were gone

The Bnai Elohim were the sons of the pre-flood nobility. Elohim means nobility in Hebrew and refers to those who rule with authority. Judges are reffered to as Elohim in Hebrew. The Nephalim are another term for the children of these people because they “fell” from their righteousness. It also refers to the fact they ‘spilt’ seed and caused it to fall on the ground.

Rob" How does this Rabbi get the idea that Elohim means "nobility" ? What about Gen 3:22?
To Jews and Christians – GOD IS THE KING
--------------------------------

To say that natural law chose to rebel against The Creator is based on pagan beliefs based on Pantheism. In Jewish theology this is impossible.

Rob" How can natural law choose to rebel against GOD?
I do not know – yet you teach it LOUDLY
Your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God – took 1/3 of God’s angels for the purpose of opposing God’s right to rule the universe

The word lucifer is not Hebrew. The idea of an angel choosing independently of The Creator anything at all is actually a form of idolworship in Jewish theology.

Idol worship – worshiping a created thing instead of the Creator

If an angel were capable of doing this they would be a minor deity. Its not Monotheism.

Correct – your teaching of 4 gods – 3 working together and 1 in opposition – is pagan polytheism
I have said this many times
---------------------------

Its a prophecy of the end of time. The Time of Harmony between all creations that will result in true happiness.
Rob" ??
What – now you deny the New Heaven and Earth too?

Lucifer and Satan are viewed as one entity in Christianity because Christianity has four deities. The Trinity and The Devil. It has a 3 part deity with an opponent that can defy it.

I just said this

This multipart deity as a creator can be defied by angels as well as partly killed in its human form. That means the christian gods are in a sort of conflict.


Rob" THis Rabbi opposes any trinity notion.
Please read this English over – you hear what you want to hear
1 – you teach a pantheon of 4 gods – it is NOT Judaeo-Christian – it is NOT monotheism
2- you teach two gods locked in an eternal cosmic controversy
3- He says nothing about Christian trinity – he is talking about your pantheon of 4 gods - and the idea that one of the gods opposes the other gods

This was adapted from the Greco Roman Pantheon as well as the Titan story and the Egyptian mythos and incorporated into a new demi-god called lucifer. Lucifer led the giant-angels to fight the creator and has his own pantheon. The 3 deities can be defied, killed when in human form, and speak through people in spirit form but have a pantheon of demi-gods called angels to fight Satan. The two forces are interlocked in a war for control which the 3 gods will eventually win, but have not done so thus far.

Yes – this is exactly your teaching here – Ellen White

It will happen, according to christianity and then the men who fight on their behalf will be rewarded. Thus according to christianity the 3 deities that are not strong enough to prevent rebellion

Yes – this is your teaching – a weak God

Rob" God is powerful to control EVIL angels, but because sin happened first, has a problem with being a dictator over the free will for other sinless creatures.
The Rabbi does not consider this idea?

a dictator over the free will
Is the total opposite of Free Will

Lucifer/fallen ones vs. creator/spirits/man god is essentially the same as all forms of paganism. Its the way Judaism was introduced to the Romans and adapted to Roman needs by the early christians. But its not Judaism its paganism under a new name, Christianity. In fact Christianity could be called the worship of satan because christianity established the concept of satan being able to defy its primary deity.

Rob" This rabbi calls Christianity the worship of Satan, is really weird?
For 4 years – it has been your only argument here – your satan is the god of evil – and defies God – Ellen White

Rob - Yes I have to gods and two kings - What wrong with that?

Lucifer is the term for evil in Christianity because Christianity does not teach that God is the source of all things including the hidden good that is called evil.

Correct – you deny that God created everything
You teach that your satan god created himself – by his own power – against God’s Will

According to christianity evil is created by an evil deity know as satan that actually has the power to defy The Creator. aka an evil version of The Creator.

Yep – 100% Ellen White

Rob" So this rabbi sees even EVIL as something designed by GOD? Now it getting even more weird?
Isa 45:7 – he created the tov and the ra – He dose all these things because He is God

Confident that you are a monotheist? Well I will go further in the analogy. If someone can rebel against a deity and they can cause that deity to temporarily die are they a deity or the deity is simply just a powerful mortal fradulently claiming to be a deity. Since rebbelion is by definition able to counteract the will of said creator when forced to obey, what kind of relationship does that creator actually have with Lucifer. They would be partners in creation. Good and Evil as the two creations fighting for domination.

You teach that god died on the cross
You teach your satan rebels against God
You teach it is all about relationships
Good and Evil as the two creations fighting for domination.
100% Ellen White’s Great Controversy

Rob" Clearly this Rabbi speaks like a fool.
Yes – you sound as a fool

The angels are by definition the manifestation of The Divine Will in Judaism. They aren't independent in any way. They are automatons that work to channel Divine will gradually through the heavens and the earth. They can't change anything. They can't fall unles they are told they must fall. They are called wheels and thrones and chariots and swords and all manner of things because that's how they function at that time.

ROb" If angels are robots, how does God enjoy relational love? Not possible. God alone would be lonely as Adam was. Clearly the Rabbi does not read Genesis which describes the power of God and the Godhead, as Romans 1:20 explains.

Thus the search for the Prodigal Son
But you deny its importance to theology

Satan is the angel of free will. He gives the option to disobey, testifies against you if you disobey, and punishes you if you disobey.
Rob" What? If the opposer angel has free will, ,
You hear what you want to hear – your English reading comprehension skill are very lacking

Satan is the angel of free will
Meaning his job is to attack our free will

He is not the angel of war
He is not the angel of messages
He is not the angel of recorders
He is the angel of free will

testifies against you if you disobey, and punishes you if you disobey.
Are angels allowed to judge and punish sinners?

The prosecutor testifies against you if you sin – it is his job
God is the only Judge – but angels are in charge of the prison with chains where the sinning archon (messengers) of Gen 6 are being held

Do they punish? – they are the jailers
-----------------------------

Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

So is this messenger the Ha-Satan Angel?

See – this is why talking with you is so disheartening
You know that the messenger here is Christ
But you mock scripture anyway – no reservation – no respect for the word of God
Yet - you call yourself a Christian

Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

How can a Rabbi contradict the NT message?
But our Rabbi rejects a Father and a Son as both divine.

Correct – Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies of the Jewish Messiah
Jew await the Messiah that will save the nation of Israel
The remnant remain to re-establish the nation of Israel so the Messiah can save it (The Nation) = the 2nd Coming

All God's Plan - written into scripoture long ago
---------------------------

That is the reason for his tests, testimony, and punishment of humans. Its all to force you to oppose sin.
Rob" SO this angel is an opposer to humans, so the humans learn to oppose sin. What bunk.

Repeat - The Judeao-Christian teaching =
The son that stays home – never worries about anything – life high on life – spends daddy’s credit card but has never worked a day in his life = a spoiled brat
The son that goes into the world realizes how nice they had it – realizes how hard life is – realizes how empty life in the world really is - He appreciates the Father

The Prodigal Son’s return gives the father Divine Joy
The Son that stayed home – whines like a spoiled child
---------------------------

So there is no record of the opposer angel killing humans? Really Rabbi, ....
Who killed Job's children? - human enemies,

LUCIFER is the christian god of evil. In christianity the term Satan means the adversary of the christian deity, not of man. That my friends is just nonsense, if a deity can be opposed in such manner then it is not a deity.
Rob" ??

Yep – I agree – if your god is not absolute then He is not the Creator

The real Creator is called One in the biblical text. Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One and only, without parts (Ehad in Hebrew).

Yep – Trinity – there is only One God
Man can never see His face
But man can experience the Left Hand of God – the Spirit of God
Or man can experience the 3D image of God – the Right Hand - Christ

-----------------------------------------Now a Catholic view ----
John Young

Satan, in the modern Christian sense, is a sadistic, intrinsically evil supernatural person, so evil it has to be pronounced “e-ville,” who runs hell and makes sure everyone gets tortured properly. This is his job through all eternity. It’s like managing a Wal-mart, I expect.
Rob" What bunk. The opposer is not supernatural nor capable of making humans get tortured.

This evil super-boss makes no sense to me. The archangels were the holiest of God’s creations, made by Him, never exposed to human beings (let’s presume they were made shortly after the Big Bang, 13.7 billion years ago, while humans never existed until maybe two million years ago at the outside.)

Rob" What bunk. SO Catholics support evolution?
You invent problems where none exist

He is saying - angels created Day 1 - it is what scripture says
He is saying Day1 happened before Day 6
How is this a support of Evolution where one creature evolves into a new and different species

And Spirit has no physical form or pain nerves; Spirit is eternal, indestructible, and has nothing to fear. For one such Spirit to develop a sado-machistic obsession with tormenting biological life-forms made of goo, yet which have little wispy souls - it is completely illogical.

Rob" This Catholic finds his religion completely illogical?
Good he should – your obsession with satan is a sado-machistic obsession

Through the millenia, a sombre valley called Sheol near Jerusalem developed into a gloomy Jewish afterlife, then can be seen to develop in Christianity into the modern hell; and likewise, a personification of evil developed over a very long time and linked to the single Biblical use of the term Lucifer.

Rob" Sheol is not some gloomy afterlife, Catholic bunk.
Correct – all people enter Hades – good and bad
Hell is a 1611 / 1660 Milton’s – Dante’s Divine Comedy- invention
along with the rest of Catholic satan mythology

Early Christian leaders could hardly have failed to notice that fear is a strong motivator, and people who are in fear will pay more, attend more faithfully, and beg for their souls more strongly than those not in fear. Thus, the myth of Satan and hell became staunch teachings.

Yes – Catholic satan was invented to drive the people into the church and the need for a priest

The backstory created for Satan was as I stated at the top: this Light-Bearer name must have been his Archangel name until he rebelled against God,

Rob" ..Catholic bunk. Not a shred of evidence in the torah
Yet – it is your teaching

Perhaps to control the masses and make more money from them. Perhaps the peasantry themselves desired such stories - what a thrill to imagine themselves as prizes in a cosmic struggle, giving meaning to drab lives.

To control the masses the mythology of satan grew – more interesting

And perhaps because humans themselves are prone to violent, larcenous, and otherwise antisocial behaviour; personifying these negative behaviours as “the devil” gave people a scapegoat upon whom to lay their own sins and failings.

Yes – Ellen White blames the serpent for Eve
Robert constantly says – its satan’s fault
------------------------------------------------------------

Last comment about Greek
The way the word is spelled means more than its place within a sentence

English has evolved to deal with euphonics
In English to say – I thew a apple at Bill – is incorrect
The only reason = a a is an awkward sound – an apple rolls off the tongue easier

In Greek to fix the euphonious of speech – move the word
English – I threw an apple at Bill
Greek – apple thew I at Bill
Greek – at Bill apple threw I
Greek - threw I at Bill apple
Greek - threw I apple at Bill

No matter the word order
I = subject – nominative
Threw = verb
apple = direct object - accusative
at Bill = prepositional phrase – Dative

This is why Greek became the language of law and treaties – because it is an exacting language
This is why Greek was well known – throughout the known world – because it was the language of commerce and trade – like English is today
This is why – the NT was written in Greek – so that the known world could read it

Maybe not Matthew – but again his target audience was the Hebrews

[rob]

Greetings Dave
It's Charles birthday Monday tomorrow, so I get a day off

Sorry about the long post, but I am trying to find scholars who support you, and it's a real impossible struggle? Your material did not supply what I needed, sombody who agrees the word Satanas is different to the word Satan, in the NT. So far you are on your own.

DAVE"The Judge is there- the prosecutor is there – the advocate it there – and the defendant
You just use your word game so you do not have to understand
ROb" If the Judge was there, wouldn't you have a word also "judgement"?

Have you considered the Opposer for what the word means "to oppose", sure a prosecutor opposes the person charged with crimes, but your opposer is no prosecutor because it, actually makes the sinners sin, and does sinning itself to humans, both are facts you cannot refute.

LXX consider the STN as a slander, hence diabolos, so again your function of prosecutor is proved wrong by the LXX Jews.
A slander is a being who opposes, but also includes one who accuses. Somebody who is wicked.

Dave" If the Cross was always God’s Plan from the very beginning
Then satan here IS HELPING GOD’S PLAN UNFOLD!
Rob" Why do you write this way?

Sure GOD had a plan to rescue sinning humans, when a mischief maker spoiled the womb of Eve after she sinned.

Such a judgement is written in the Exodus judgements of the term "no wounding". Thus the devil wounded Eve after she sinned, spoiling her womb and corrupting the DNA code, a holy word from God's finger.

But you make this solution part of God's plan. Well yes it was planned, but never supposed to happen, But it did. Does that mean a God of love wanted to make humans experience death and hatred? No. But SIN is a terrible force, which God foreknew.
Just because God is ahead of the Opposer, does not make the Opposer God's servant.

Dave" Sure Robert – all you have to do is take 1 Chr21 / 2 Sam 24 / Zec 3 / the Book of Job / 1 Kings 22 / 2 cho 2:17 out of the Bible – rewrite so it mean what you want it to say
ROb" Well what is your alternative? Belive an angel is doing the honor of helping humans to forsake sin, proscute humans for sin, and even kill them if they sin too badly? And this is a sinless angel doing a bad job? Really Dave, how can a God of love consider such a thing?

Where is your evidence? No words for "judgement" in any of your contexts.

Zec 3 is about a high priest. Since when is a high priest about judgement? It's about atonment, and the sinners are judged as sinless by GOD only. No mention of a prosecutor, read Lev 16, the whole chapter.

But the Azael scape goat is trying to accuse the high priest so the scape goat does not receive the sins he tempted Israel to commit.

The Opposer is trying to save his ass, by condemning humans of sins, because it keeps his kingdom alive and going. Accuser/ opposer/ but not some fair minded prosecutor helping God deal with sinners.

You mention 1 Kings 22, when God asked for one to go and make a wicked king sin some more. How is this a prosecutor function? It's not.

And in Job, God declared to the Opposer, Job was sinless. What did the Opposer say? Is a prosecutor in court allowed to answer back a Judge who rules the sinner is sinless? No he is not.

SO again explain your prosecutor rudeness to the judge?

Dave" God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be
ROb " in the next Creation Dave, are human further tested, and does the archon also exist. If you say NO to these two questions, you are proving this Jewish belief is false.

Dave" God can probably create anything he wants
ROb" SO you are not sure? My God is abolute and creates loving TOV things all the time, but can if SIN happened the first time also create RA.

Have you ever considered this?

Dave" In our reality – the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is God’s Law for nature – Rom 1:19-20
In our reality – without entropy – creation would be motionless – as soon as something moves – energy is exchanged – and it is always lost – higher to lower
In our reality – given enough time – everything will wind down and stop – Rom 1:19-20
ROb" so why did GOD make things like this?

Designed it naturally that way?

or

Was dealing with the first time SIN came into the universe?



Really Dave, war in heaven.....


Dave" our museums are filled with the empirical evidence
ROb" evidence of a Global Flood.

Where is your evidence prior to the FLood?

Dave" Once man sinned – man was kicked out of the garden and no longer had access to the Tree of Life – so man died as all animals do
ROb" Suddenly your god is not a god of living. In Eden man was sinless, and lived forever, but the natural animals died of old age or were eaten. Really Dave, some God you worship?

My God is absolute, yours is clearly not.

Dave" It is not a sin to be stupid – it is sad
Rob Again you fail to notice the NT Scripture of the darkness that comes from the Opposer.

Think about this? Darkness cannot exist unless GOD moves from the opposer, thus they become BOTH opponents.

Dave" Sin did not enter the world until man
Man did not die until sin enter the world
Why did man sin – BECAUSE ALL MEN ARE SINNERS
ROb" Are babies in the womb in the last few weeks before being born, are they living life as a sinless foetus Dave?

When Adam sinned, what changes happened to the foetus in the womb? Have you considered this idea?

Use Scripture to answer your discuss.

Dave" God knew that if he made a creature able to sin – it would
ROb" What bunk ! God made the free will angels perfect and sinless, and they existed without sinning for billions of years is my view. Adam lived with GOD every Sabbath for at least 33 years before sinning. God told him of the Opposer and the tree under his command. Eve also knew to stay away from the tree, and to remain by her husband's side. But after 33 years, one gets used to things.

The speaking creature began to negate God's words, and this is a sin. Why Jeff Benner does not consider this I don't know.

Did the serpent tempt Eve to make her choice differently from choosing God, to choosing the Serpent's religion, live by self, than you will be like the Most High, knowing good and evil, and live on a higher existence than you have now.

NO comment from Dave. Obviously the Opposer wanted to make Eve under his rule.

Dave" The parable of the Prodigal Son is the essence of Christianity
You mock Christianity – you deny the NT
ROb" No Dave, I do nto mock. You said the angels are like the Son in this parable. Hence you have said angels have free will to choose.


Dave" you deny that your god is NOT able to love his creation – needs help
ROb" Adam could love his creation, and love his friend GOD, but was still lonely.

Have you considered this idea Dave? Obviously not.

Dave" Why does God desire the Prodigal Son more than the son that stayed home?
ROb" Because GOD does not desire to lose His Created creatures, he notices the sparrow that falls to the ground.

Dave" Make up you mind – stop talking jibberish
ROb" Make up your mind, Why do you consider the SON as the Father as a different expression?

So your daughters are just Daves feminine expression?

Is that how love works, must you dictate love in other persons, or like the prodigal let that love go on it's own, under free will?

Which would a Father GOD love most?

Dictatorial love or love that is under free will but returns?

So your robotic son that never sinned, is less special than the free will son that returned to His Father.

But you consider the Father has two expressions of Himself, a left hand that stayed at home and a right hand that wanted to go into the world and sin.

RobPP" Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
THis moral law existed from eternity, before any creature sinned. There was only one elohiym power, who is ruling over the sinless creatures.

Dave"That is exactly what I said – I do not have two gods
Rob" SO according to Dave, free will does not exist, otherwise there would be false elohiym powers. And we cannot have two gods can we?

Now I see why you have robotic angels.


Dave" Why don’t you teach ONE – you have a pantheon of gods working tougher
ROb" How many heart cells working independently do you have in your heart Dave?

Answer none.

You fail to understand echad. And unity. And single minded pupose.

When the Roman army walked in groups, as ONE machine, they were invincable.

How does a Father show love to his Creatures Dave?

Make a relationship to them? That is not love, who is the provider and who is the responder? Adam felt lonely, with God's arrangement, so GOD built a woman from within the man. If you make a relationship within yourself, than others see your love as a unit. Despite two independent free wills to break relationship, they choose not to.

Sin, is the breaking of this bond. Technically a broken marriage function.

Dave" There is no war / struggle in heaven between two gods
ROb" That's funny, you deny Rev 12:8

Dave" where there is no law there is sin – but IT IS NOT COUNTED AS SIN
ROb" Huh?

How can sins be imputed? Without ceremonial laws, they can be imputed, hence such laws did not exist until Jesus spoke them to Adam, and also Moses.

Dave" ABSOLUTELY CORRECT
ROb" SO saving a sinner from sin, is different to declaring a sinner as sinning. The function of condemn sinners as sinning has to exist first. The salvation of sinning sinners came second.
The moral law existed from all eternity.


Dave" Yep - there is your two word Catholic invention
ROb" Explain how reading Hebrew plainly makes this a Catholic invention?

Catholic also term the Opposer as a supernatural force.

Where does Scripture say that? I doesn't.

Catholic also say the Opposer tortures sinning humans in hell.
Where does Scripture say that? I doesn't.

So your premise is wrong Dave. Reading Scripture correctly is not affected by some other religion, just because they have some truth and lots or error.

RobPP" 1) Why would God create creatures without free will?
Dave" To reveal His wealth and glory
Butterflies are beautiful – creation is amazing
ROb" Birds have pineal gland, so humans could have talked to birds about God's love and they would have responded...
Not sure about butterflies.

All mammals also have pineal glands, so one day you can have an intelligent discussion with your dog, about the love of God. I doubt you would support this idea?

You don't even have angels with free will.

RObPP" 2) Why would GOD limit love to only humans?
Dave" Because humans are the creatures that can choose
God seek companionship – relationship
Rob" Is that an answer? The Father cannot choose companionship and thus cannot demonstrate relational love, so why create creatures to do something God cannot do? Really Dave, some answer.


RobPP" 3) Explain why you have no relational loving with God and the angels?
Dave" Your are a parent – I hope you have two children – if you say you love one – why does it mean you do not love the other

The Father cannot demonstrate relational family love, so why create creatures to do something God cannot do?
Your God becomes meaningless and unable to relationally love like the families God Created. You also deny the Romans 1:20.
God created nature to reveal His nature to us humans.
SO something wrong with your one Being idea of power.
Sicne when can a battery make power from one entity?
Or the SUN power itself from itself? Some say the power of the sun comes from music and water, not nuclear fission, so much for science theories.

RobPP" 4) How can angels minster to humans, if they do not experience love themselves?
Dave" Who says God doesn’t love His angels
Who says God doesn’t love the son that stayed home
The Prodigal Son gives God DIVINE JOY
ROb" Wrong kind Dave, A son is biologically the same kind as its parent.

Elohiym so maleness loved the world that musculine He GAVE His only and only SON.....

How is this an expression, giving himself.... how can there be abah love is one gives himself?

So other right hand left to sin, while the left hand stayed at home, and when the right hand came back suddenly this is love and joy? I don't think so.

Dave" Who says God doesn’t love His angels
ROb" You can't even read my discussion correctly.
I said how can angels help humans with salvation if they are mere robots and cannot use free will themselves?

How can GOD help humans with free will, if GOD has no free will Himself, and no risky elements of love that also can choose to break love with each other?

Your Father cannot sin, because He cannot break faith, because He is all alone. But he creates a creature not like Himself?
Answer my discussions Dave.

Dave" Yep – there is your two word Catholic invention
ROb" List all the Catholic doctrines on the Devil and let's see how many I agree with?

If the Catholics are true, I should agree with them all.
If they are false, than they have both TOV and RA in their doctrines.

My view is GOD is only ever TOV, and never does RA unless GOD is dealing with sin, so as to make sin observable to sinners.
For example darkness never exists unless LIGHT is dimmed in the SINNING presence.

In the next Creation GOD is 7 fold brighter than now. hence no umbra shadows will exist on earth.

Dave" Proof that G4566 is just a transliteration of the Hebrew STN

Help me to pay attention. Thanks.
Paul also uses satanas G4567 in the rest of his writings
Proof – Paul new the difference
Proof it is not a literary slip up – because it is consistent throughout
ROb" Typically over my head, please explain, I an unlearned.


Dave" The Jewish teaching =
The son that stays home – never worries about anything – life high on life – spends daddy’s credit card but has never worked a day in his life = a spoiled brat
ROb" NO Dave. YOu do not quote Scripture.

Let me quote why the son who stayed home felt that way/

Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Faith is an eternal conditon for living under GOD's power.

Ho 13:5 ¶ I did know thee in the wilderness,

The world is a simile of a desert

Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.

Here is why Israel left their Saviour and broke faith.
Not spoilt brats, but became ungrateful over time, careless of God's daily blessings.

Ho 13:7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion:

Funny a fisherman keep fish fresh in crates by placing a baby shark in with the fish. Keeps them alert and active.

God has to do the same as we saved become complacent.

Ho 13:9 ¶ O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;

How true this is

Ho 13:10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities?

If GOD is our King, God asks, is there another king in thy cities?

Ho 13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.

I suspect the son who stayed home also sinned?

Neglecting the blessings is also an attitude of ungratefulness.


Dave" The son that goes into the world realizes how nice they had it – realizes how hard life is – realizes how empty life in the world really is - He appreciates the Father
ROb" But this saved sinner is Israel Dave, who after 40 days forgets God and learns of the good times in sinning while in Egypt.

Dave" Absolutely agree – the idea of fallen angels Ezk 28 Isa 14 is a Catholic invention that did not take shape until long after Jesus and His disciples were gone
ROb" If that were true, explain Ancient CHinese logograms of the devil as a agent of the 4 sins in Eden?

Rob PP "Rob" How can natural law choose to rebel against GOD?
Dave" I do not know – yet you teach it LOUDLY
Rob " explain please,


Dave" Correct – your teaching of 4 gods – 3 working together and 1 in opposition – is pagan polytheism
I have said this many times
ROb" And you sixtrillion cells are independent in your heart are they? A pagan polytheism heart concept?

Independent cells are termed cancerous in a human.

How can you term the divine model as pagan?

zeus is a family of gods, totally different to the divine family in heaven.
Dave" Thus according to christianity the 3 deities that are not strong enough to prevent rebellion

Yes – this is your teaching – a weak God

ROb" God designed free will in all his creatures, does not make love weak. It makes love risky, not weak. There is a difference.
-------------------------

Dave" The prosecutor testifies against you if you sin – it is his job
God is the only Judge – but angels are in charge of the prison with chains where the sinning archon (messengers) of Gen 6 are being held

Do they punish? – they are the jailers
ROb" Well said, OK.
----------------

Dave" See – this is why talking with you is so disheartening
You know that the messenger here is Christ
But you mock scripture anyway – no reservation – no respect for the word of God
Yet - you call yourself a Christian
ROb" How nice of you to agree with me?
I agree the messenger here is Jesus, not some angel.
Beware of HIM, for only HE forgives sin,
Not some angel.

Thanks for your confirmation Dave
Jesus is thus our prosecutor and our attorney.
He is the only who knows us best, not some angel.
-------------------

RobPP" Who killed Job's children? -
Dave" human enemies,
ROb" And the Opposer had nothing to do with killing the human children of Job? Nothing at all?

all is in your power says God....

Just what powers did this Prosecutor have Dave?
What a strange thing to say if the angel was just a prosecutor?
But if the Opposer is the same Opposer in Rev, your Satanas creature, well things are different.

But you deny this idea.

Where is you scholar paper on Satanas?

DAVE" You invent problems where none exist
ROb" I battled a Catholic for over 6 weeks every day on a forum over evolution, Catholics do support evolution Dave.

Dave" Correct – all people enter Hades – good and bad
ROb" We agree

SO I am not supporting Catholic ideas of the Opposer.

Dave" Yes – Catholic satan was invented to drive the people into the church and the need for a priest
ROb"

Dave" Yet – it is your teaching
ROb" No it's not.

Dave" Yes – Ellen White blames the serpent for Eve
Robert constantly says – its satan’s fault
ROb" You are mocking again?

Dave" This is why Greek became the language of law and treaties – because it is an exacting language
This is why Greek was well known – throughout the known world – because it was the language of commerce and trade – like English is today
This is why – the NT was written in Greek – so that the known world could read it
ROb" I see.
Does this also exist in Hebrew?

This kind of exactness with words?

What about his verse Dave?

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (Greek) will he speak to this people, in NT times.

While the Greek is exact, does it not confuse readers and make them lose Hebrew understandings?

Why did Jesus translate to the disciples when they could read both Greek and hebrew?

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded "translated" unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Why translate? Obviously the traditons watered down prefix and suffix meanings of the stem words, they lost the ability to read YASHA in the HEBEW.

Thanks for many this post shorter.

Question: DId I read your research? Were there any papers on Satanas? I didn't find any ?
Shalom

[Dave]

DAVE"The Judge is there- the prosecutor is there – the advocate it there – and the defendant
You just use your word game so you do not have to understand
ROb" If the Judge was there, wouldn't you have a word also "judgement"?

Word game

Dave" If the Cross was always God’s Plan from the very beginning
Then satan here IS HELPING GOD’S PLAN UNFOLD!
Rob" Why do you write this way?
Sure GOD had a plan to rescue sinning humans, when a mischief maker spoiled the womb of Eve after she sinned.

Correct you deny that God is absolute or is control
Your weak god had to change his plan for creation because your satan forced god to respond – react
Correct you teach two equal gods locked in a cosmic controversy – you deny monotheism
---------------------------

Such a judgement is written in the Exodus judgements of the term "no wounding".

More of Roberts word games
H7523 – רָצַח – râtsach - A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

But you make this solution part of God's plan. Well yes it was planned, but never supposed to happen,

Correct you deny that God is absolute or is control
Your weak god lost control of his own creation
Your weak god had to change his plan for creation because your satan forced god to respond – react

Dave" Sure Robert – all you have to do is take 1 Chr21 / 2 Sam 24 / Zec 3 / the Book of Job / 1 Kings 22 / 2 cho 2:17 out of the Bible – rewrite so it mean what you want it to say
ROb" Well what is your alternative?
Believe an angel is doing the honor of helping humans to forsake sin,
Gnostic - This is not the mission of the archon – but it is the lesson of life in the world – the end result = repentance from grief and hardship

prosecute humans for sin,
Yes – Hebrew satan is heaven’s prosecutor

and even kill them if they sin too badly?
Gnostic – They cannot kill anyone
But the job of the prosecutor is to seek the death penalty when deserved – the bitch of Judaeo-Christianity = one sin = death

And this is a sinless angel doing a bad job? Really Dave, how can a God of love consider such a thing?
Yep – Hebrew satan of the OT – as an angel of the lord – in service to the Lord – and at times – doing a dirty job.

You teach – your god cannot kill – cannot do no wrong
Who is the angel of death – that passed over in Egypt
Was that God Himself – or His servant – doing a dirty job
Why? - to help facilitate God’s Will on earth

1 Chr 21:1 / 2 Sam 24:1- satan is helping facilitate God’s Will on earth

1 Kings 22 – a volenteer satan is helping facilitate God’s Will on earth

Job – satan is absolutely helping facilitate God’s Will on earth
By proving that Job is a Podigal Son - no matter what the world did - Job chose God

Zec 3 – a prosecutor is is helping facilitate God’s Will on earth
By not allowing sinners into heaven

John 3:16 - requires the Cross - Judas is helping facilitate God’s Will on earth

Dave" God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be
ROb " in the next Creation Dave, are human further tested, and does the archon also exist. If you say NO to these two questions, you are proving this Jewish belief is false.

Evidently you do not know the end times story from the Jewish perspective – when God cleanses the earth of the wicked and return man to Eden and the Body of Adam

and still - God is absolute – Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. God is absolute – His creation is exactly as He Willed it to be

His Creation – His Plan – His Will
------------------------

Dave" our museums are filled with the empirical evidence
ROb" evidence of a Global Flood.
Where is your evidence prior to the Flood?
Dave" our museums are filled with the empirical evidence
Going all the way back to creation Day 3

Dave" It is not a sin to be stupid – it is sad
Rob Again you fail to notice the NT Scripture of the darkness that comes from the Opposer.
Yes- it was from the First Archon – Gen 1:2 Choshek

Dave" Sin did not enter the world until man
Man did not die until sin enter the world
Why did man sin – BECAUSE ALL MEN ARE SINNERS
ROb" Are babies in the womb in the last few weeks before being born, are they living life as a sinless foetus Dave?

Yep all babies are born sinless – and God is with them
But around 90 days old – (yester ra) begins to take command
Sooner or later (yester ra) leads to sin

Eze 28:15  You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you. 

When Adam sinned, what changes happened to the foetus in the womb? Have you considered this idea?
Nothing happened - except they are not born in Eden

Dave" God knew that if he made a creature able to sin – it would
ROb" What bunk !
You can teach your god is stupid – I never will

Did the serpent tempt Eve to make her choice differently from choosing God, to choosing the Serpent's religion, live by self, than you will be like the Most High, knowing good and evil, and live on a higher existence than you have now.
NO comment from Dave. Obviously the Opposer wanted to make Eve under his rule.

Yes – I have said many time – you need to blame sin upon your god of evil
Not Eve’s fault – it was satan’s fault

Dave" The parable of the Prodigal Son is the essence of Christianity
You mock Christianity – you deny the NT

RobPP" Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
THis moral law existed from eternity, before any creature sinned. There was only one elohiym power, who is ruling over the sinless creatures.

Dave"That is exactly what I said – I do not have two gods
Rob" SO according to Dave, free will does not exist, otherwise there would be false elohiym powers. And we cannot have two gods can we?

If you want to call the world a god – go for it – worship your little heart out
My choice is between God and the world
Yes the archon are the masters of this world – it is their kingdom
But they are just created creatures in the WORLD

They are NOT GOD - and they are not my god
I regognise them for who they are

They are ants at a picnic
They are termites in your house
They are mice in your barn
They are the serpent in the garden 
They are just BEAST of the field (Gen 3:1)
They are NOT GOD - and they are not my god
They are no more of a god than - Ceasar - Emperor Ito - or Emperor Chin -
each a pretender - a god want-a-be
or Allah - who is Baal, Molech, Dogon, Chermush, etc etc 29 more times 
each a pretender - a god want-a-be
They are NOT GOD - and they are not my god

Dave" Why don’t you teach ONE – you have a pantheon of gods working tougher
ROb" How many heart cells working independently do you have in your heart Dave?
Answer none.
Nope there are a pantheon of cells working together

You fail to understand echad. And unity. And single minded pupose.

When the Roman army walked in groups, as ONE machine, they were invincable.
And they were a pantheon of men

All of your examples are of polythiesm
Groups of individuals working together

Dave" There is no war / struggle in heaven between two gods
ROb" That's funny, you deny Rev 12:8
Rev 12:8  but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan,
What I said there is no longer a war in heaven
Now it is the CONTEST of Gen 3 - established by God

Dave" where there is no law there is sin – but IT IS NOT COUNTED AS SIN
ROb" Huh?
Deny the NT some more Robert – it proves your respect for scripture

Rom 5:13  For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law. 

Rom 4:15  For the Torah brings about wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there a violation. 

RObPP" 2) Why would GOD limit love to only humans?
Dave" Because humans are the creatures that can choose
God seek companionship – relationship
Rob" Is that an answer? The Father cannot choose companionship and thus cannot demonstrate relational love, so why create creatures to do something God cannot do? Really Dave, some answer.

Yep – you deny the lesson of the Prodigal Son that returned because the son chose God of his own free will – man chose God
-----------------------------------------

Dave" Yep – there is your two word Catholic invention
ROb" List all the Catholic doctrines on the Devil and let's see how many I agree with?

If the Catholics are true, I should agree with them all.
If they are false, than they have both TOV and RA in their doctrines.

I have posted the Catholic Catechism – articles of faith – on the topic of Fallen Angels – many times to you - it is 100% word for word Ellen White’s teaching – your teaching

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
PART ONE, THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO, CHAPTER ONE, ARTICLE I
Paragraph 7. The Fall
II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".271

ROb" List all the Catholic doctrines on the Devil and let's see how many I agree with?
Answer - all of them
------------------------------------

My view is GOD is only ever TOV,
For example darkness never exists unless LIGHT is dimmed in the SINNING presence.
Gen 1:1-3 does not agree with you – who should we believe?

Dave" Proof that G4566 is just a transliteration of the Hebrew STN
Help me to pay attention. Thanks.
Paul also uses satanas G4567 in the rest of his writings
Proof – Paul knew the difference
Proof it is not a literary slip up – because it is consistent throughout
ROb" Typically over my head, please explain, I an unlearned.

Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

There is no savior beside me – God = saviour – God = Christ
YOU DENT IT
You have a god #1 – the HS is god #2 - and the Messiah is a different god #3
You deny the Spirit - so the HS cannot be the spirit of God - she must be a differnt god
and god #3 prays to god #1 - you say is proof that God is NOT the saviour

The world is a simile of a desert
Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.

Forgotten me – entropy of thought – entropy of memory
You argue against the idea – in every post
Now you post it to make a point

Ho 13:9 ¶ O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;
How true this is
Because sin = spiritual suicide
You argue against the idea – in every post

Ho 13:10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities?
If GOD is our King,
Why do you question a Rabbi calling it Nobility?

Rob PP "Rob" How can natural law choose to rebel against GOD?
Dave" I do not know – yet you teach it LOUDLY
Rob " explain please,
Your satan rebels, hates and opposes God - DUH

Dave" Correct – your teaching of 4 gods – 3 working together and 1 in opposition – is pagan polytheism
I have said this many times
How can you term the divine model as pagan?
Because you teach multiple gods - you deny monothiesm 

Dave" Thus according to christianity the 3 deities that are not strong enough to prevent rebellion
Yes – this is your teaching – a weak God
-------------------------

Dave" See – this is why talking with you is so disheartening
You know that the messenger here is Christ
But you mock scripture anyway – no reservation – no respect for the word of God
Yet - you call yourself a Christian
ROb" How nice of you to agree with me? 
I agree the messenger here is Jesus, not some angel.

Thanks for your confirmation Dave 
That you have no respect for scripture – you play with it to serve your own purpose
Then then next day you want me to believe what you say is true
Evedently you do not consider honesty a Christian atrabute - or teaching
-------------------

DAVE" You invent problems where none exist
ROb" I battled a Catholic for over 6 weeks every day on a forum over evolution, Catholics do support evolution Dave.

Yes – 99.999% of educated Western Christendom accepts evolution in some form
Why – because Darwin has proven to everyone that the ORDER of Gen 1 creation is correct

Some have invented Theistic Evolution – or God directed evolution
Only in the last 40 years and the field of genetics – has science moved toward the Intelligent Design

Then Creation Institute – then presents pseudo-science that even a 5th grader laughs at – helping to prove that Christianity is NOT valid and based upon myth

Interesting you did not comment on his message only his use of time.
You just hear what you want to – so you can argue against a word – or in this case time

Dave" Yes – Ellen White blames the serpent for Eve
Robert constantly says – its satan’s fault
ROb" You are mocking again?
This is your teaching and you refuse to see any other view
You have argued every angle – satan rules over her – satan forced her – satan lied to her – you have done everything except to admit – that her choice was hers alone
-------------------------------

Dave" This is why Greek became the language of law and treaties – because it is an exacting language
ROb" I see.
Does this also exist in Hebrew?
This kind of exactness with words?

NO – paleo Hebrew is pictographic – the symbols paint images
Ab = father = man of the house / or tent pole / the support of the house
Elohiym = God / gods / judges / magistrates
el = God / other god / strong authority
etc – etc – etc – same root – different context

While the Greek is exact, does it not confuse readers and make them lose Hebrew understandings?
NO – the Catholic Church invented most of your confusion – Ellen White invented the rest

Why did Jesus translate to the disciples when they could read both Greek and hebrew?

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded "translated" unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Why translate? Obviously the traditons watered down prefix and suffix meanings of the stem words, they lost the ability to read YASHA in the HEBEW.

Proof – that you do not wish to understand scripture
you just want to play with scripture and you have no depth

G1329 – διερμηνεύω – diermēneuō - From G1223 and G2059; to explain thoroughly; by implication to translate: - expound, interpret (-ation).

Your made up version of events is just fantasy
Just more reason that it is difficult to take you seriously
You will say anything to be antagonistic – regardless if it is consistent with scripture or not

How can anyone following Jesus Christ Mock the word of God so easily
Deny scripture so easily
Deny the entire NT
Admit they prayed against the Holy Spirit
Satan followers are the ones opposing scripture – your logic

We know who you are – you are not interesting in understanding scripture
You just want to play games with the word of God
You deny basic Christian teaching LOUDLY
All in favor of your god of evil