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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 15:30:59 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Dave's allows precepts of men to comment: -" A polystrate fossil is a fossil of a single organism (such as a tree trunk) that extends through more than one geological stratum. This term is typically applied to " fossil forests " of upright fossil tree trunks and stumps that have been found worldwide, i.e. in the Eastern United States, Eastern Canada, England
R" How convenient.
So your saying the coal was already there, made by GOD, and the tree some how grew through the sedimentary rock? So the sedimentary rock was also not from a Great Flood?
D"Robert – science has come a long way in 60 years
R" Oh so I have to find the latest science papers, in say the last 10 years? What does this tell you about Science research? It's fallible.
D"The upheaval could have been the Flood – but the coal pre-existed
R" Let's explore this idea of yours? Please explain
You are saying God created all the coal beds, and all the sedimentary beds before the Great Flood came along?
How do you account for human objects found embedded inside lumps of coal?
Why would GOD create dead remains of plants? I thought GOD is living? Now you postulate God is a creator of both living and dead things, that come from living things? This makes GOD , a creator of death?
No wonder you dislike Ellen White.... God is a living God. God is NOT going to create evidence of death. You now postulate that SIN is not the origin of death, but God is. After all God creates coal (dead plants) before SIN even occurred. On top of this you ignore that angels sinned also long before man did.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 7, 2022 1:16:46 GMT -5
" A polystrate fossil is a fossil of a single organism (such as a tree trunk) that extends through more than one geological stratum. This term is typically applied to " fossil forests " of upright fossil tree trunks and stumps that have been found worldwide, i.e. in the Eastern United States, Eastern Canada, England So your saying the coal was already there, made by GOD, and the tree some how grew through the sedimentary rock? Robert – I still cannot find the answer to the questions before you Instead you post this made up statement of your own – soyou can argue against your own statementIf you ever bothered to get to know who I am and what I stand for – you would know that the polystrate fossils are validation of a geological upheaval. Some amazing forces buried entire forest with layers of rock – each layer consistent throughout – it just isn’t the coal layer – it is all the layers
Validation that the The Flood of Noah was a rapid and catastrophic global eventA second point about polystrate fossils spanning your coal seams The trees are fossils not coal The coal is coal and the trees became fossils – 2 different processes --------------- D"Robert – science has come a long way in 60 years R" Oh so I have to find the latest science papers, in say the last 10 years? What does this tell you about Science research? It's fallible.Science is built upon empirical evidence - things that you can measure and test If hypothesis stand without exceptions – they become Laws that do not change If a hypothesis has possible exceptions – it remains the best fit theory As the exceptions are examined – they add information and the theory is adjusted D"The upheaval could have been the Flood – In fact I argue that it is but the coal pre-existed D"Robert – science has come a long way in 60 years What does this tell you about Science research?That it is finally reaching a stage where it validates scripture - amazingR" Let's explore this idea of yours? Please explain You are saying God created all the coal beds, and all the sedimentary beds before the Great Flood came along?Here ya go again – inventing my view – misrepresenting me and others to make a pointYou are saying God created all the coal beds Why would GOD create dead remains of plants?No one is saying this except youThe plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of CreationGen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout grass, green plants yielding seed, fruit trees making fruit, each according to its species with seed in it, upon the land.” And it happened so. Gen 1:12 The land brought forth grass, green plants yielding seed, each according to its species, and trees making fruit with the seed in it, each according to its species. And God saw that it was good. Gen 1:13 So there was evening and there was morning—a third day. Dillon video The speaker suggests coal comes from wood, and postulated the bacteria which decomposes the lignin wasn't able to decompose the wood, hence it accumulated, but later the bacteria evolved to decompose lignin.
(1) The speaker supports evolution. Dave and myself, dislike evolution, so this video is not evidence for either of us.Correct – there is no such thing as evolution – God created things incrementally – Incremental Creation(2) The speaker says coal comes from trees, which is exactly the same view I have. (3) He says the trees all came at once on the earth, could also be the same view as all the trees were all at once buried by the Great Flood, different views of the same evidence?D"Robert – science has come a long way in 60 years What does this tell you about Science research?Don’t you realize what science is saying?One of the absolute biggest arguments against Biblical creation are grasses and trees on Day 3 - before the sun Now science says – there was great grasslands and forest before The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), - when solar powered photosynthesis went amuck - which requires the sun of Day 4 What does this tell you about Science research?That it is finally reaching a stage where it validates scripture – amazingINCREMENTAL CREATION - validation by sciernce and scriptureThe plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of CreationNot on Day 7 while God restedHow do you account for human objects found embedded inside lumps of coal?1- Hoaxes perpetrated by the miners 2- deposits from upheavals 3- validation of ancient man – before the flood 4- UFO artifacts from the past 5- dino footprints in caol - validation that the coal predated the dino ------------------------------------------------ IF you accept WEDD and FD-WEDT then the separation of the continental plates occurred with the Flood of Noah – the same mechanism that fueled the flood waters also fuels the decompression sequence If you are an orthodox Jew – the separation of the continental plates occurred in the days of Peleg Gen 10:25 Two sons were born to Eber. The name of the first was Peleg—because in his days the land was divided—and his brother’s name was Joktan. Fact – just as the migratory patterns of the dino give evidence of the continents mating perfectly together – on a smaller globe 65% of today’s current diameter There are between 8 and 13 different coal and ore seams that also bridge continents. Coal seams in Africa continued in both North and South America. Evidence that the coal predates the separation of the continents Second line of evidence = the iridium layer – also evidence of the Flood of Noah And also always above the coal layers Evidence that the coal predates the iridium layer------------------- Dillon video Your links I could not read, are not fully click on them, links. Funny –I typed - Why was most of the Earth's coal made all at once? - Ars ...https://arstechnica.com › science › 2016/01 › why-was-... – i nto my google search bar and got:Why was most of the Earth's coal made all at once? | Ars Technicahttp://arstechnica.com › science › 2016/01 › why-was-mo... It's a neat story, but, a new study led by Stanford's Matthew Nelsen argues, it's not true. While coal deposits formed both before and after the Carboniferous, ... Funny –I typed - Stanford scientists discover how Pangea helped make coalhttps://news.stanford.edu › news › january › coal-forma.. – into my google search bar and got:Stanford scientists discover how Pangea helped make coalhttps://news.stanford.edu › news › january › coal-forma... Jan 22, 2016 — Stanford Earth scientists Kevin Boyce (left) and Matt Nelsen (right) examine Carboniferous-era petrified wood fossils. The consolidation of the ... Dillon video Your links I could not read, are not fully click on them, links.Your pretend ignorance is obvious – you know how to use your computer if you want to ----------------------- The subject we are all studying is immense, and the number of questions too many for me, I'm sorry.For 2 ½ years you have been on the attack – oppose oppose oppose – 1885 post here – each one packed full of attacking questions trying to discredit me – this forum – and the authors of the agl/NT and NHL
But if I ask you direct questions about your own doctrine or prophetIt too hard for you to answer – too many question – so instead of answer the one you can to the best of your ability – you avoid – deflect – and refuse to answerAre you so embarrassed at the doctrine you preach that you cannot defend it?YOU - have set an absolute standard - one error and it is all garbageThis is the rule you force upon me and others with every post Can yopu live with your own rule - or is it just a double standard you use because of your great convictionsYou must realize1- Her science belongs in the 19th century YES – she says many good and healthy things – cannot deny it 2- Yes – She does in fact contradict scripture Question #6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?YES – Ellen White –Robert says satan forces God to change His Plan against God’s Will NO - Jews, Gnostics, and mainstream Christendom – God’s Plan was in place before the foundation of the world This denies the sovereignty of God God is absolute – it is Only His Plan – because it is Only His Will No force – no power – no angel – or no man ever forced God to do anything Question #8. WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN?YES – Ellen White – according to her satan spoke directly to Adam "Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law" (Evangelism, p. 598). NO – Scripture - 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Ellen White does in fact contradict scriptureAlso – She and the SDA teach – there is no such thing as spirit She and the SDA teach – there is no such thing as baptism of the spirit – or the promise of First Fruits She and the SDA teach – There is no promise of the First Fruits - you only hope is the grave She and the SDA teach – The Catholic Catechism of the Fallen Angels Which teach – This denies the sovereignty of God God is absolute – it is Only His Plan – because it is Only His Will No force – no power – no angel – or no man ever forced God to do anything It teaches that even God’s angels can fall from God’s Grace – therefore so can man Is Ellen White supporting Jesus Christ? She teaches a different GospelJesus Christ said – not one word of the teachings changes Ellen White says – believe Rome – and their rewritten OT theology + satan the god of evil Is Ellen White supporting Jesus Christ? She teaches a different GospelJews say – Life Lives Gnostic Christians and Mainstream Christianity teach the salvation of the soul to eternal life Ellen White says – no spirit – man is only biology from the dust of the earth - no eternal life - only death for a while – and Resurrection later Is Ellen White supporting Jesus Christ? She teaches a different GospelJesus Christ claimed to be God – Paul calls Him the Image of God – John calls Him the Word of God – they all say He is the Light of the World Ellen White says satan and man killed the Divinity of God on the cross Question – Is Ellen White a Prophet of the Lord?Here is the interesting point for meMiller was in India as a Missionary He returns to America and both He and the Indian Bahai Faith of Islam begin teaching the very same ADVENT math At the same tile of the Millerites and the SDAs beginnings = Joseph Smith and the Mormon movement At the end of this Great Awakening Movement was Charles Russell and The Jehovah’s Witness All there teach an alternative form of Christianity All three with their own prophet All three preach satan Robert – my Gnostic cosmology has withstood 2 ½ years of your attack I finally put Ellen White to the same treatment and you fold on the very first series of questionsMy question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NTThe authors of the agl/NT were the very disciples of Jesus Christ - they walked and talk with Jesus Christ in public and in private – both before and after His Resurrection Yet you mock their writings – and accuse them of being heretics because they do not support Roman theology – instead they support a very Jewish theology – imagine that
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 15:40:34 GMT -5
D" The coal is coal and the trees became fossils – 2 different processesR"Show me a science paper detailing that coal does not come from wood/plant material, ie from some other process? D" That it is finally reaching a stage where it validates scripture - amazingR" Science will never validate Scripture, Science cannot stand a great flood, Science will never allow us to uncover Noah's Ark, yet we all know where it lies, Science will never take away the billions or millions of years of time, the great hero of the so called evolution of things, including coal, according to you, been there for millions of years. Time means nothing to you.... D "Here ya go again – inventing my view – misrepresenting me and others to make a pointR" OK how about detailing your view about the coal beds than. Throw in a science paper to back up your view. RP" Why would GOD create dead remains of plants?D" No one is saying this except you
The plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of CreationR" Well you had better get explaining than Dave. You mention I assume that coal comes from plants created on day 3 of Creation. OK so how did the coal get there than, before the Great Flood? D" Now science says – there was great grasslands and forest before The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), - when solar powered photosynthesis went amuck - which requires the sun of Day 4R" what? brevity again? D" The plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of Creation Not on Day 7 while God restedR" how? D" Evidence that the coal predates the separation of the continents
Second line of evidence = the iridium layer – also evidence of the Flood of Noah And also always above the coal layers
Evidence that the coal predates the iridium layerR" Same evidence, different view (1) All the wood/plant material, got washed all over the world at once, hence same beds all over the world. (2) Than the sky broke up dropping the iridium layer over the wood deposits. If you are going to push for a preexisting coal bed, before a great flood deposit, than you have to present evidence that cannot find in the Great Flood event Dave. You have not done this yet... arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/why-was-most-of-the-earths-coal-made-all-at-once/Here is the complete link. Large tree-like plants evolved before fungi evolved the ability to break down the fibrous lignin that helped give the plants structure. With nothing to make them decay, their remains were free to pile up and yield thick coal deposits.R" The paper uses the term "e volve" a term Dave doesn't like, so you cannot uses this paper?? The researchers actually offer up a back-of-the-envelope calculation that makes the “lignin-just-evolved-before-lignin-eaters” hypothesis for all that coal seem pretty problematicR" Not all science researches agree? What about a global deposit/flood? Not discussed? During the Carboniferous, the Pangaea super-continent was coming together.R" no writing on how this happened? flood? news.stanford.edu/2016/01/22/coal-formation-pangea-012216/The second link The finding, published in this week’s issue of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, contradicts a popular hypothesis, first formally proposed in the 1990s, that attributes the formation of Carboniferous coal to a 60-million-year gap between the appearance of the first forests and the wood-eating microbes and bacteria that could break them down.R" contradicts a popular hypothesis? So what hypothesis are we presenting than? showed that not all of the plants that existed during the Carboniferous period, which began about 360 million years ago, possessed high concentrations of lignin,R" Correct, lignin is a RA error caused by plant DNA error, and a result of the curse of GOD, ie the Creation began missing powers after Adam sinned, If you want to generate coal, you need a productive environment where you’re making lots of plant matter and you also need some way to prevent that plant matter from decaying,” Boyce said. “That happens in wet environments.”R" What about 3kms of water sitting on top of them? flood? no air than? T here’s only a narrow band in time in Earth’s history where you had both a wet tropics and widespread holes to fill in the tropics, and that’s the Carboniferous.”R" He dismisses the great flood event. OK Dave, are these the only papers you have? They do not show any evidence of coal made on day 3 of Creation? SO please explain your view.
(1) You state God created the coal on day 3, this occurred before Adam sinned. (2) Therefore you are saying the lignin changed during day 3, plants grew without lignin and later on during day 3 grew with lignin, and somehow forest grew enough to be buried in huge deposits all over the world, (implying the forest died somehow) , on a 65 % smaller than earth is now. (this theory is OK to me - ie diameter of earth and a single land mass) (3) Are you saying God creates changes over time to his Creation? D" For 2 ½ years you have been on the attack – oppose oppose oppose – 1885 post here – each one packed full of attacking questions trying to discredit me – this forumR" Well for one, you write brevity, and do not detail your view with much detail. You dragged out your view for 2 years, not me, I was trying to uncover your view? You can read my view in several hours on my website, all detailed already since 2012. Two , you do not follow the torah hardly at all, it's used only to back up Gnostic views. I was new to Gnostic views, so was patient with you.. Now here is your chance to detail how coal beds got there before the Great Flood. I would love to read of your theory... Please present in all the details... SHalom PS you can create clickable links on papers, see, how this was done here. The ebay spaghetti links are a worry, way too long...
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Post by Dave on Mar 7, 2022 16:53:12 GMT -5
D"The coal is coal and the trees became fossils – 2 different processes R"SHow me a science paper detailing that coal does not come from wood, ie from some other process?What does one have to do with the other?(google) How are fossils formed? In silicification, the weathering of rocks releases silicate minerals and the silica makes its way into a body of still water. Eventually, the mineral-laden water permeates the pores and cells of some dead organism, where it becomes a gel. Over time, the gel will dehydrate, forming an opaline crystal structure that is an internal cast of the organism. This accounts for the detail found in permineralization. Silicification reveals information about what type of environment the organism was likely to have lived in. Most fossils that have been silicified are bacteria, algae, and other plant life. Silicification is the most common type of permineralization. (google) How is coal formed? Coal is mostly carbon with variable amounts of other elements, chiefly hydrogen, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen. Coal is formed when dead plant matter decays into peat and is converted into coal by the heat and pressure of deep burial over millions of years. D"The coal is coal and the trees became fossils – 2 different processes--------------------- D"That it is finally reaching a stage where it validates scripture - amazing R" Science will never validate Scripture, Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork. Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth, Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark. Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image in the form of mortal man and birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things. Scripture says science has already validated scripture many times over – by man decided to give the credit to the WORLD – nature – natural causes - evolutionScience cannot stand a great flood, OH – what about your creationist Dr Walter Brown?Or the real science of nuclear and stellar physicist beginning in the 1930s – yielding several different expanding earth theories – culminating in WEDD, J. Marvin Herndon 2005 and FD-WEDT David Freed 2006 Science will never allow us to uncover Noah's Ark, yet we all know where it lies, The Islamic governments that hold the land really don’t have much to do with scienceScience will never take away the billions or millions of years of time, the great hero of the so called evolution of things, including coal, according to you, been there for millions of years.Time is not LinearThe ahl/OT says it - Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night. The agl/NT says it - 2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. Science says it – time and gravity are measurable at different rates dependent upon the perspective of the viewer Time – is a measure of order - Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 - etc D"Here ya go again – inventing my view – misrepresenting me and others to make a point R" OK how about detailing your view about the coal beds than. Throw in a science paper to back up your view. Dillon gave you many links – you cannot find themRP"Why would GOD create dead remains of plants?D" No one is saying this except you The plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of CreationD"Now science says – there was great grasslands and forest before The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), - when solar powered photosynthesis went amuck - which requires the sun of Day 4 R" what? brevity again?I keep forgetting that you have a lack of general science knowledge – or you cannot locate information on the internet for yourself(google) What was the Great Oxidation Event and why did it happen? The Great Oxygenation Event (GOE) was the introduction of free oxygen into our atmosphere. It was caused by cyanobacteria doing photosynthesis. It took a very long time, from about three billion years ago to about one billion years ago. Photosynthesis was producing oxygen both before and after the GOE. This event requires the sun – Day 4 Aerobic bacteria – that use oxygen do not exist until oxygen was available Anaerobic bacteria are more complex – they can ferment So the bacteria necessary to cause fibrous decay did not exist until after Day 4 However – science says coal was formed from plants that pre-existed Day 4 Therefore the science validate scripture as to order – amazing revelation INCREMENTAL CREATION - validation by sciernce and scriptureEvidence that the coal predates the iridium layer R" Same evidence, different view (1) ALl the wood got washed all over the world at once, hence same beds all over the world. (2) Than the sky broke up dropping the iridium layer over the wood deposits. If you are going to push for a preexisting coal bed, than you have to present evidence that cannot find in the Great Flood event Dave. You have not done this yet... IF you accept WEDD and FD-WEDT then the separation of the continental plates occurred with the Flood of Noah – the same mechanism that fueled the flood waters also fuels the decompression sequence If you are an orthodox Jew – the separation of the continental plates occurred in the days of Peleg Gen 10:25 Two sons were born to Eber. The name of the first was Peleg—because in his days the land was divided—and his brother’s name was Joktan. View Attachment Fact – just as the migratory patterns of the dino give evidence of the continents mating perfectly together – on a smaller globe 65% of today’s current diameter There are between 8 and 13 different coal and ore seams that also bridge continents. Coal seams in Africa continued in both North and South America. Evidence that the coal predates the separation of the continents Second line of evidence = the iridium layer – also evidence of the Flood of Noah And also always above the coal layers Evidence that the coal predates the iridium layer arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/why-was-most-of-the-earths-coal-made-all-at-once/ Here is the complete link. Large tree-like plants evolved before fungi evolved the ability to break down the fibrous lignin that helped give the plants structure. With nothing to make them decay, their remains were free to pile up and yield thick coal deposits. R" The paper uses the term "evolve" a term Dave doesn't like, so you cannot uses this paper??You just choose to stumble over words – so you do not have to see the truthINCREMENTAL CREATION - validation by sciernce and scriptureRobert – my Gnostic cosmology has withstood 2 ½ years of your attack I finally put Ellen White to the same treatment and you fold on the very first series of questionsMy question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NTThe authors of the agl/NT were the very disciples of Jesus Christ - they walked and talk with Jesus Christ in public and in private – both before and after His Resurrection Yet you mock their writings – and accuse them of being heretics because they do not support Roman theology – instead they support a very Jewish theology – imagine that But if I ask you direct questions about your own doctrine or prophetIt too hard for you to answer – too many question – so instead of answer the one you can to the best of your ability – you avoid – deflect – and refuse to answerAre you so embarrassed of the doctrine you preach that you cannot defend it?YOU - have set an absolute standard - one error and it is all garbageThis is the rule you force upon me and others with every post Can you live with your own rule - or is it just a double standard you use because of your great convictions and dedication to the truth? Question put directly to you – are Ellen White’s comments timeless as are scripture And does Ellen White contradict scriptureYour answer is still - Now here is you change to detail how coal beds got there before the Great Flood. I would love to read of your theory... My theories are freely posted on my web-site – this forum – and in my books You have mocked them all in the past (google) whole earth decompression dynamics About 1,910,000 results (0.50 seconds) (google) the fluid dynamics of whole earth decompression theory About 2,440,000 results (0.57 seconds) (google) incremental creation About 12,300,000 results (0.46 seconds)
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Post by Dave on Mar 8, 2022 10:21:54 GMT -5
(1) You state God created the coal on day 3, this occurred before Adam sinned.You state God created the coal on day 3,Nice try – please quote meDo you have a learning disability? Or are you just an ass. Is there some reason why you cannot stick to the facts of what is said? Instead of discussion what is being said - you have to invent your own version of other people’s views Don’t you realize what science is saying?One of the absolute biggest arguments against Biblical creation are grasses and trees on Day 3 - before the sun Now science says – there was great grasslands and forest before The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), - when solar powered photosynthesis went amuck - which requires the sun of Day 4 What does this tell you about Science research?That it is finally reaching a stage where it validates scripture – amazingINCREMENTAL CREATION - validation by science and scriptureThe plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of Creation (2) Therefore you are saying the lignin changed during day 3, plants grew without lignin and later on during day 3 grew with lignin, and somehow forest grew enough to be buried in huge deposits all over the world, (implying the forest died somehow) ,Coal deposits are not ubiquitous to the world – just ask China AND YES – huge forest – much vegetation – all types of grasses – tropical – possibly giant (as in Red Wood not your volcanic Devils Tower) YES – lived grew and died – piled up – thick layer of downed vegetation The natural cycle of life – beginning – growth – reproduction – and death (3) Are you saying God creates changes over time to his Creation?ABSOLUTELY – Day 1 was completely different than Day 2 was completely different than Day 3 was completely different than Day 4 was completely different than Day 5 was completely different than Day 6 was completely different than Day 7 These changes were/are completely obvious to Darwin and everyone who studies the evidenceRom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth, Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark. Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image in the form of mortal man and birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things. These changes were/are completely obvious to Darwin and everyone who studies the evidenceDarwin does not give the credit to God – he gives the credit to WORLD – nature Since 1853 many scientist followed Darwin into darkness and taught the misinformation to the WORLDD"Robert – science has come a long way in 60 years What does this tell you about Science research?That it is finally reaching a stage where it validates scripture – amazingMost scientists have moved away from Darwin – and now embrace the Intelligent Design theory I embrace the One True Creator – the real Intelligent DesignerIncremental Creation – God did it all – one thing at a time – one Day at a time – one species at a timeIncremental Creation – science validating scripture – scripture validating scienceCurrent events - Incremental Creation – science validating scripture – scripture validating science Social trends - Incremental Creation – science validating scripture – The Hand of God Gay rights – scripture validating science – the Hand of God – Incremental Creation Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the evil desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies with one another. Rom 1:25 They traded the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to shameful passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for what is against nature. Rom 1:27 Likewise the men abandoned natural relations with women and were burning with passion toward one another—men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season and a time for every activity under heaven: Ecc 3:2 a time to give birth and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted; Ecc 3:3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build up; Ecc 3:4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance; Ecc 3:5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather stones, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing; Ecc 3:6 a time to seek and a time to lose, a time to keep and a time to discard; Ecc 3:7 a time to tear apart and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak; Ecc 3:8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. Incremental Creation God did it all – one thing at a time – one Day at a time – one species at a time science validating scripture – scripture validating science Evolutionist demand that you pick a side – science or God Science is valid and the Bible is a religious myth Creationist demand you pick a side – their pseudo-science – or empirical evidence Buy into the myth they present – and be ignorant of empirical evidence – doubt it AND – the only argument they have is TIMETime is not LinearThe ahl/OT says it - Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night. The agl/NT says it - 2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. Science says it – time and gravity are measurable at different rates dependent upon the perspective of the viewer Time – is a measure of order - Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 - etc
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 15:21:47 GMT -5
D"What does one have to do with the other? R" Are you dull? All the evidence you posted tells you that coal comes from wood/lignin: also mentioned/plant material/duh.
"D"Coal is formed when dead plant matter decays into peat and is converted into coal by the heat and pressure of deep burial over millions of years." R" you posted this.....
D"D"The coal is coal and the trees became fossils – 2 different processes R" You didn't answer my question
SHow me a science paper detailing that coal does not come from wood, ie from some other process? Obviously coal comes from wood, or dead plant matter...duh.
D"OH – what about your creationist Dr Walter Brown? R" Dave only a few, very few scientists validate Scripture, most cannot not, do not for fear of losing their jobs.
Walter Veith asked geologists over the world privately they say, yes coal caused by a flood, but publicly they say something else.
D"The plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of Creation R" how Dave. Please explain your view - second time I have asked.
D"It took a very long time, from about three billion years ago to about one billion years ago. R" what is this billion of years thing in your view? I thought you say coal was made on day 3 of Creation?
D"This event requires the sun – Day 4 Aerobic bacteria – that use oxygen do not exist until oxygen was available Anaerobic bacteria are more complex – they can ferment So the bacteria necessary to cause fibrous decay did not exist until after Day 4
However – science says coal was formed from plants that pre-existed Day 4 Therefore the science validate scripture as to order – amazing revelation R" so this is Dave's really easy post on how coal is formed on Day 3 of Creation?
Rob will try to fathom your complex ideas for simple readers?
On Day 3, God created trees and plants, and they grew without sunlight for over a billion years, according to your brevity post. No bacteria was around to decay the plant material on day 3, so we assume no decomposition occurred, but somehow you also assume the trees died during those billions of years? But on day 4 when the sun was created, the oxygen came into the world, and bacteria began decomposing the plant material, but too late than, somehow the coal got buried? How? Dave does not say?
That is my attempt, now please explain "how the plant material ended up as coal"? D"INCREMENTAL CREATION - validation by sciernce and scripture R" You love to post ideas, but do not validate or prove these ideas?
To me, Dave yom day 3 and yom day 4 is just 24 hours apart, so where does a billion year fit into a yom, it doesn't. D"Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night. The agl/NT says it - 2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. R" These verses of time refer to the time allocated for mankind after they sinned, not the time of the Creation of the world. The word yom means a day of earth based local time. -------------------------
RP"Why would GOD create dead remains of plants? DP" No one is saying this except you The plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of Creation R" "ended up as coal" OK explain that Dave?
D"You just choose to stumble over words – so you do not have to see the truth R" you have a weird way of processing truth, you hate evolution but are happy to read the paper as truth? I do not get you. D"My question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NT R" Mrs White says the coal came from the Great Flood.
Dave says the coal pre-dated the global flood event.
OK where is your proof and your science papers that agree with you?
SO far you have not presented anything, not a thing...
D"But if I ask you direct questions about your own doctrine or prophet It too hard for you to answer – too many question – so instead of answer the one you can to the best of your ability – you avoid – deflect – and refuse to answer R" Dave I have answered your question....
Coal came from the Great Flood as Mrs White wrote.
You are the goofy one here, saying coal predated the Global Flood and was created on Day 3.
Not really created but " ended up as coal".... please explain your words.
And do not use evolution terms of time either.
D"You have mocked them all in the past
(google) whole earth decompression dynamics About 1,910,000 results (0.50 seconds)
(google) the fluid dynamics of whole earth decompression theory About 2,440,000 results (0.57 seconds)
(google) incremental creation About 12,300,000 results (0.46 seconds) R" Can't you explain how coal got here on day 3 of creation? Not really created but " ended up as coal".... please explain your words.
Rp" (1) You state God created the coal on day 3, this occurred before Adam sinned.
You state God created the coal on day 3, D" Nice try – please quote me Do you have a learning disability? Or are you just an ass. R" You say Dave the plant material created on day 3 " ended up as coal".... please explain your words.
Second time I have asked you.
D"Don’t you realize what science is saying? One of the absolute biggest arguments against Biblical creation are grasses and trees on Day 3 - before the sun
Now science says – there was great grasslands and forest before The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), - when solar powered photosynthesis went amuck - which requires the sun of Day 4 R" Dave on day one, God said let there be light, so there is enough light from day one to make the time of yom become valid.
On day 2 the light of GOD is still there, plenty of light. Light brighter than 7 times the sun even, which by all accounts is a dwarf star, so explain to me why light was not around on day 3? When a gigantic super nova light (GOD) was sitting just outside the earth causing light and as the earth moved away from that light, caused night. You get bogged down in science and precepts of men.
D"The plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of Creation R" Are you afraid to detail this sentence? I asked for a theory and you give me one sentence?
D"YES – lived grew and died – piled up – thick layer of downed vegetation The natural cycle of life – beginning – growth – reproduction – and death R" Explain to me why God who is living should also create/allow living things to die? SO you are saying death, the ending of living, also comes from God? Please explain?
D"The natural cycle of life – beginning – growth – reproduction – and death R" explain why living requires a cycle of beginning, growth and finally death? Proof please?
RP" (3) Are you saying God creates changes over time to his Creation? D" ABSOLUTELY – Day 1 was completely different than Day 2 was completely different than Day 3 was completely different than Day 4 was completely different than Day 5 was completely different than Day 6 was completely different than Day 7
These changes were/are completely obvious to Darwin and everyone who studies the evidence R" ON day one, God created day and night. How did this change on day 2, day 3 , day 4, etc. I do not see any change to this created event. On Day two, God separated the flow above from the flow below. The flow above He called heaven, and the flow below He called earth.
On day 3 , the event on day 2 did not change once it was created. On day 4 the event created on day 2 did not change, it remains the same as God created it.
On day 3, the flow on the earth gathered so dry land appeared and seas appeared, and plants were created to grow on the dry land. On day 4, the plants did not experience further changes, all that was created for plants were created on day 3, so no further changes happened to the plants on day 4, except they continued to grow, and being alive they could change as growth itself is change, the plants could fill the earth, as living processes change all the time, but not evolve, as the DNA did not change but remained the same on day 3 as it was created.
SO I do not get you at all. Nothing changes once it is created. Living things change because the DNA allows for change to their living, but the DNA itself does not change once it was created. The DNA is a perfect copy of itself, remains unchanged over time. Your verses you quote refer to after SIN, so you cannot use them.
If you want to use a verse to validate Creation use verses like this:-
Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Re 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Ask yourself, why did earth had night, if the next creation for earth, has no night? "choshek" the word we studied but you ignore my view of "choshek". SIN caused "choshek", but you ignore this idea?
Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits,
One tree in Eden, but the older Creation has two trees in Eden, how come the change? Again you ignore my views of this idea?
God never tests sinless humans in love.... why were they tested in the older Creation? Again a view you ignore?
Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse:
Funny you ignore this idea? SO big a deal you completely ignore my view?
Re 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
SO how come the older creation had "choshek" and "night" but the new Creation doesn't?
You have to use verses that do not have sinning in them, as I do. Your Roman verses are about sinning, and how sinning people have no excuses for God's creative powers.
D"Since 1853 many scientist followed Darwin into darkness and taught the misinformation to the WORLD R" Why mention Him? I thought we were talking about how the plant material on day 3 ended up as coal? You do not explain?
D"Time is not Linear Time – is a measure of order - Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 - etc R" Ok explain you terms Dave? somehow you are happy with a billion yoms on earth between day 3 and day 4? Explain this.
I see only one 24 hour time, one revolving earth event, to make day 3 into day 4. Explain to me how this is not your view, For example how long does it take for coal to me made from a great flood? A few months how long to make diamonds from carbon? A few hours how long to make oil from living material, heated and squashed by pressure? A few minutes How long to make granite rocks ? Milliseconds of time, halos of plutonium confirm this How long to create all the species of plants for earth? A second of time maybe?
God spoke and it was done as He spoke. Now please try to answer my questions....
Ellen White says coal came from the Great Flood. I agree with her. You don't agree.
OK explain how the plants created on day 3 "ended up as coal", your words.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 8, 2022 18:40:08 GMT -5
D"But if I ask you direct questions about your own doctrine or prophetIt too hard for you to answer – too many question – so instead of answer the one you can to the best of your ability – you avoid – deflect – and refuse to answer R" Dave I have answered your question....
Coal came from the Great Flood as Mrs White wrote.So you agree – Ellen White’s science is just 19th century wishful thinking I have already given Ellen White a pass on her 19th century science Her claims do not stand up to scientific scrutiny Her scientific principles are errorNow how about the question of her contradicting scripture – as well as science? Still no answer from you – you just want to argue a different topicI ask A – you post B and talk all about B YOU - have set an absolute standard - one error and it is all garbage This is the rule you force upon me and others with every post Can you live with your own rule - or is it just a double standard you use because of your great convictions and dedication to the truth? SHow me a science paper detailing that coal does not come from wood, ie from some other process? Obviously coal comes from wood, or dead plant matter...duh.I have given you the information on how fossils are formed I have given you the information on how coal I s formed Now you show me your scientific paper that - argue that two different unrelated things are definately unrelated YOU - have set an absolute standard - one error and it is all garbage This is the rule you force upon me and others with every post Can you live with your own rule - or is it just a double standard you use because of your great convictions and dedication to the truth?D"OH – what about your creationist Dr Walter Brown? R" Dave only a few, very few scientists validate Scripture, most cannot not, do not for fear of losing their jobs.YES – and in the meantime they all support an Intelligent Design Walter Veith asked geologists over the world privately they say, yes coal caused by a flood, but publicly they say something else.I offered you the opportunity to post your fav Walter Veith video here so we could discuss it You were afraid to do so = because you cannot defend him as with Don PattonCreationist force you to take sides against the emperical evidence Creationist force you to take sides against the truth and reason Creationist are as much at fault as EvolutionistD"The plants that ended up as coal were created on the 3rd Day of Creation R" how Dave. Please explain your view - second time I have asked.Coal deposits are not ubiquitous to the world – just ask China AND YES – huge forest – much vegetation – all types of grasses – tropical – possibly giant (as in Red Wood not your volcanic Devils Tower) YES – lived grew and died – piled up – thick layer of downed vegetation The natural cycle of life – beginning – growth – reproduction – and death D"It took a very long time, from about three billion years ago to about one billion years ago. R" what is this billion of years thing in your view? I thought you say coal was made on day 3 of Creation?Creationist demand you pick a side – their pseudo-science – or empirical evidence Buy into the myth they present – and be ignorant of empirical evidence – doubt it AND – the only argument they have is TIMETime is not LinearThe ahl/OT says it - Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night. The agl/NT says it - 2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. Science says it – time and gravity are measurable at different rates dependent upon the perspective of the viewer Time – is a measure of order - Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 - etc
On Day 3, God created trees and plants, and they grew without sunlight for over a billion years, according to your brevity post. Correct – science validates that the earth support plant life before the sunNo bacteria was around to decay the plant material on day 3, so we assume no decomposition occurred, Not the correct type anywayCorrect – this is also another blow to the standard evolution model but somehow you also assume the trees died during those billions of years?Yes Robert – contrary to Ellen White the natural cycle of beginning – growth – reproduction – death - and rebirth has been a full part of the historical record – long before manBut on day 4 when the sun was created, the oxygen came into the world, and bacteria began decomposing the plant material, but too late than, somehow the coal got buried? How? Dave does not say?Correct – when direct sunlight came to this world photosynthesis went crazyGot burried by the other dead materials piling ontop - called sediments - called drift - called erosion - called shit - waste - the discarded D"INCREMENTAL CREATION - validation by science and scripture R" You love to post ideas, but do not validate or prove these ideas?Why do you deny scripture – even 6 Days of creationTo me, Dave yom day 3 and yom day 4 is just 24 hours apart, so where does a billion year fit into a yom, it doesn't.Creationist demand you pick a side – their pseudo-science – or empirical evidence Buy into the myth they present – and be ignorant of empirical evidence – doubt it AND – the only argument they have is TIMETime is not LinearThe ahl/OT says it - Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night. The agl/NT says it - 2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. Science says it – time and gravity are measurable at different rates dependent upon the perspective of the viewer Time – is a measure of order - Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 - etc
To me, Dave yom day 3 and yom day 4 is just 24 hours apart, so where does a billion year fit into a yom, it doesn't.And you preach that man can no longer enter God's promised day of Rest - because that day was over almost 6000 years agoWhy do you preach against the agl/NT? Why doesn't the Gospel of Ellen White align with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?Why do you argue against Gnostic Paul - he wrote 85% of the Roman recieved text You deny Col 1:16 = the archon were made by Him for Him You deny John 1:3 = everything was no made by God - there is another powerful god in a Controversy You deny Eph 6:12 = the archon are not real - they are Gnostic - do not exist Now you deny Hebrew 4:1-11 = God's Day of rest is only 24hr long and it was over almost 6000 years ago Why do you preach against the agl/NT? Why doesn't the Gospel of Ellen White align with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?------------------------- D"You just choose to stumble over words – so you do not have to see the truth R" you have a weird way of processing truth, you hate evolution but are happy to read the paper as truth? I do not get you.If you are not excited when science validates scripture then how are you supporting your Jesus Christ? Each and every time science says something that validates scripture – I am jumping for joyAs someone who believes that God created everything why would you denys scientif proof of itOH - Yeh - you believe in the second creator that altered God's design - changed all of God's Plan against God's Will and preach the doctrine to othersD"My question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NT R" Mrs White says the coal came from the Great Flood.And how does her failed science make her mopre valuable than the disciples of Jesus Christ that walked and talked with Jesus Christ both before and after His resurrect – both in public and in privateDave says the coal pre-dated the global flood event. YES – the flood = the separation of the continental plates And coal predates the separation event – because coal seams also run continuously from form on continent to another – as if the ocean that separates them did not exist – as if they were once land bridged together
From the theory of Plate Tectonics – Alfred Wegener 1912courses.lumenlearning.com/geo/chapter/reading-continental-drift-2/Evidence for Continental DriftBesides the way the continents fit together, Wegener and his supporters collected a great deal of evidence for the continental drift hypothesis.
Identical rocks, of the same type and age, are found on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Wegener said the rocks had formed side-by-side and that the land had since moved apart. Mountain ranges with the same rock types, structures, and ages are now on opposite sides of the Atlantic Ocean. The Appalachians of the eastern United States and Canada, for example, are just like mountain ranges in eastern Greenland, Ireland, Great Britain, and Norway (figure 2). Wegener concluded that they formed as a single mountain range that was separated as the continents drifted. A side-by-side comparison of the Appalachian mountain range and the Eastern Greenland mountain range
Ancient fossils of the same species of extinct plants and animals are found in rocks of the same age but are on continents that are now widely separated (figure 3). Wegener proposed that the organisms had lived side by side, but that the lands had moved apart after they were dead and fossilized.
Coral reefs and coal-forming swamps are found in tropical and subtropical environments, but ancient coal seams and coral reefs are found in locations where it is much too cold today. Wegener suggested that these creatures were alive in warm climate zones and that the fossils and coal later had drifted to new locations on the continents.-------------------- You state God created the coal on day 3, D" Nice try – please quote me Do you have a learning disability? R" You say Dave the plant material created on day 3 " ended up as coal".... please explain your words. Second time I have asked you. DUH – God never said – let there be coal – and it appeared Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout grass, green plants yielding seed, fruit trees making fruit, each according to its species with seed in it, upon the land.” And it happened so. Gen 1:12 The land brought forth grass, green plants yielding seed, each according to its species, and trees making fruit with the seed in it, each according to its species. And God saw that it was good. Gen 1:13 So there was evening and there was morning—a third day. God created the plants – fruiting tress – grasses - yielding seed according to its species
It were these plants and tress that became the coal – over time how long - how much time did it take?All we know it that coal existed prior to the land mass breaking up into continents Dr Walter Brown says the breakup of the continental plates occurred at the flood WEDD + FD-WEDT also say the breakup of the centennial plates occurred at the floodD"Don’t you realize what science is saying? One of the absolute biggest arguments against Biblical creation are grasses and trees on Day 3 - before the sun Now science says – there was great grasslands and forest before The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), - when solar powered photosynthesis went amuck - which requires the sun of Day 4 R" Dave on day one, God said let there be light, so there is enough light from day one to make the time of yom become valid.YES – that is exactly what Dillon said – he used the example of Moon FlowersBut you disagree with his post - or do you - it is hard to tellD"YES – lived grew and died – piled up – thick layer of downed vegetation The natural cycle of life – beginning – growth – reproduction – and death R" Explain to me why God who is living should also create/allow living things to die? SO you are saying death, the ending of living, also comes from God? Please explain?All of nature testifies to creation and the CreatorD"The natural cycle of life – beginning – growth – reproduction – and death – and rebirth R" explain why living requires a cycle of beginning, growth and finally death? Proof please? Because even nature testifies to creation and the CreatorThe parade of the Jews – God witness to the whole worldFrom the beginningA need for atonement – (Rom 5:12) God does tabernacles with man – twice (outside and inside – the only 2 part feast) Salvation is only of the Lord – (John 3:16) Passover – Passover – Passover – (the only 3 part feast) Pentecost – Communion – Spirit to spirit The lesson from nature = because of Rom 5:12 – man is going to die like all the animals around himEcc 3:17 I said in my heart: “The righteous and the wicked, God will judge. For there is a time for every activity and for every deed.” Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.” Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of humankind and the destiny of animals are one and the same. As one dies, so dies the other. Both have the same breath—a human has no advantage over an animal—both are fleeting. Ecc 3:20 Both go to one place. Both were taken from the dust, and both return to the dust. Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth? Ecc 3:22 So I perceived that nothing is better than for man to enjoy his works, because that is his portion. For who can bring him back to see what will be in the future? The lesson from nature = because of Rom 5:12 – man is going to die like all the animals around himIf you understand that mortality is limited – it forces you to consider What’s next – is there life after death – what is the meaning of life – why am I here – and I like this one ‘why is life temperary’ What’s next – nothing or an after life is there life after death – if there is shouldn’t man seek to know it – plan for it – prepare – is there anything I need to atone for?what is the meaning of life – Why am I here - every old timer on his death bed realizes Mat 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? what is the meaning of life – why am I here – Answer – ‘To witness the Glory of the Lord!’and I like this one ‘why is life temperary’Man began as immortal – but sinned Man once lived about 1000 years – but all of humanity became corrupted over time After the Flood – man is limited to 120 years Each step – limits the length of the Contest – each step gives man a better chance to stand against the WORLD Current life span is about 75 years and the WORLD still has people in it like Mother Teresa – Chuck Missler – Kim Clement – my mother – my children – and so many more God is fair If you want to use a verse to validate Creation use verses like this:-Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Re 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. Ask yourself, why did earth had night, if the next creation for earth, has no night? "choshek" the word we studied but you ignore my view of "choshek". SIN caused "choshek", but you ignore this idea?I do not ignore entropy – it is a Law of Nature that cannot be deniedAll things wear down in physical creation This was the Law of nature long before Adam and Eve The ‘sin’ of Adam and Eve brought sin into this world Why do you deny scripture Now how about the question of her contradicting scripture – as well as science? Still no answer from you – you just want to argue a different topicI ask A – you post B and talk all about B YOU - have set an absolute standard - one error and it is all garbage This is the rule you force upon me and others with every post Can you live with your own rule - or is it just a double standard you use because of your great convictions and dedication to the truth?
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Post by Dillon on Mar 9, 2022 7:11:53 GMT -5
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Post by Dave on Mar 9, 2022 11:57:48 GMT -5
For 2 ½ years Robert has only opposed me, this forum, Judaism, and Mainstream Christianity – as necessary – to defend Ellen White and her New Gospel This thread is dedication to the same treatment of his Ellen White and the teachings of the SDARobert cannot defend Ellen White – and I do not want to make the discussion a personal attack Robert cannot defend Ellen White – because he has backed himself so far into a corner, he cannot get out Robert’s absolute standards for everyone else – is a religious double standardRobert does not study anything – he only reacts with the attitude of his own doctrine If he applies his own absolute standard to himself or his personal prophet – he will explode 1- Ellen White’s science is not actual science – it does not stand the test of time as the word of God 2- Ellen White’s statements are contradictory to scripture – his own precious received text 3- Ellen White is even caught contradicting herself These few question do not even start to uncover the many criticisms of her and her accused plagiarized writingsRobert cannot defend Ellen White – and I do not want to make the discussion a personal attackINSTEAD – Robert – my Gnostic cosmology has withstood 2 ½ years of your attack I finally put Ellen White to the same treatment and you fold on the very first series of questionsMy question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NTThe authors of the agl/NT were the very disciples of Jesus Christ - they walked and talk with Jesus Christ in public and in private – both before and after His Resurrection Yet you mock their writings – and accuse them of being heretics because they do not support Roman theology – instead they support a very Jewish theology – imagine that Robert even denies Gnostic disciple John -John 1, John 3 Robert even denies Gnostic apostille Paul Col 1, Eph 6, Heb 4 Robert denies the only known writing of Gnostic disciple Phillip Robert denies the Gnostic disciple Thomas – and Gnostic disciple Peter In fact – I have asked Robert many times for the endless list of scripture he has denied Robert denies science – it is all wrong he says To me – he is simply denying even more scripture Rom 1:18-20, Psa 19:2I guess the real question - is why is Robert afraid to have an honest inltelligent study - instead of only promoting satan as a god that can alter God's creation - change God's Plan - and all against God's Will - and his only refuge is Ellen White (whom he cannot defend) - one verse (that he repeats like a parrot)- and the Catchasim of the Roman Catholic Church (which he himself calls a Jesuit Satanic Cult)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2022 17:57:57 GMT -5
You get stressed easily... You say God using natural processes of life and death all the time? Not for Adam's creation, it was exactly the same as the Creation mentioned on Rev 22. Try this video for starters, I will try to find some more evidence, that wood can be turned into coal in just a few months. Researchers are turning CO2 into coal using liquid metals. www.youtube.com/watch?v=03gWgCN61F0Not much different to magma and wood, I find. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 10, 2022 13:10:07 GMT -5
You get stressed easily...Not stress – frustration and profound disappointmentI know that you are a cantankerous personality type – you cannot help yourself You love being the opposer = you enjoy being the ass I have tried to be patient with you Walter Veith – Don Patton – and you start every presentation with Misrepresenting what the facts are – and then argue against your own version of realityDon Patton begins each argument with – science wants you to believe – or science says And then he lies what science says – misrepresents it – present his own version of it Then he can talk and talk about how his version of science facts are wrong The video of Walter Veith that I tried to get you to post – he talks about the flood and the chalk layer Everything he says about the scientific version is a lie – he completely misrepresents it Then he says – there are ZERO scientific attempts to fit the Flood into science – another lie You have misrepresent Gerald Schroder for years on your web-site You consistently misrepresent me – and then argue against your own version You call yourself a Christian – yet you play the same game with the Word of GodAnd it does not seem to bother you at all – Christian You have an absolute standard for everyone else – but it is obviously a religious double standardYou have 3 proofs that you are correct (1)- Ellen White says soBut given an opportunity to preach Ellen White to us - You duck and cover (2)- you have the two words of Ezk 28But given the opportunity to prove from scripture that your satan god hates and opposes the Creator – you threw your hands up and said – well I still have Ezk 28 and Rev 12:7 (3)- your only proof for Ezk 28 = the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church* absolutely the only source of information you will consider – is the Roman Catholic version of theology – and Roman Catholic approved literature * Yet – you call the Roman Catholic Church a Jesuit Satanic Cult You have an absolute standard for everyone else – but it is obviously a religious double standardWhen you discovered that Gerald Schorder supports biology man Gen 1 before Spiritual Adam of Gen 2 – did you discard all of him from your web-site or cosmology? When you discovered that Ezk contains error according to Moses – you over look it When you discover that Mat and Luke disagree – you over look it When you discover that Stephan is wrong in the Book of Acts – you over look it When presented with a scientific paper - you seek out a word (evolution) and argue against that word - so you do not have to address what is said You praise Don Patton for being a successful liar – (science wants you to believe - blah blah) You praise Walter Veith for being a successful liar – (the Kabbalah says satan = Messiah) You Praise creationist – because they mock science and the empirical evidence – (all the evidence is wrong - the whole world is wrong) You preach Ellen White – another scientific missrepresenter and a scripture contradictor But you refuse to defend her as a prophet of the LordYet all these teaching make up your theology – lie upon lie – error upon error And you mock scripture by misrepresenting it – you mock God by misrepresenting His word to othersAnd all of it – to defend satan as the god of evil who is so powerful that your satan can alter God’s creation – change God’s Plan – and all against God’s Will You have a war in heaven – a Great Controversy between two equal gods You elevate your satan to god hood – while denying the Absolute sovereignty of the Creator YOU ARE NOT A REAL STUDENT OF THE WORDAs much time as you have spent trying to tear down this forum – you could have earned to translateYou choose not toAs much time as you have spent trying to tear down this forum – you could have gotten a Master’s Degree in church historyYou choose not toYou claim to have more than one college degree As much time as you have spent trying to tear down this forum – you could have gotten a Master’s Degree in DivinityYou choose not toWhile you are on this forum – you could research and investigate – and learnYou choose not toYou say God using natural processes of life and death all the time? Not for Adam's creation, it was exactly the same as the Creation mentioned on Rev 22.I totally reject your 8th grade science of the 1960sHow does a single cell organism eat – or reproduce (google) Unlike you, unicellular creatures don't have mouths to eat with, teeth to chew with, or stomachs to digest with. Cells eat other cells by engulfing them inside their cell membrane. This is called phagocytosis. How many times can a bacteria reproduce in a day? How many bacteria reproduce in 24 hours? How many bacteria reproduce in 24 hours? If cells divide every 30 minutes, after 24 hours, 48 divisions would have taken place. If we apply the formula 2n, where n is equal to 48, the single cell would give rise to 248 or 281,474,976,710,656 cells at 48 generations (24 hours). Nature = birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the cycle of life – before man(google) Teeth marks found on the bones of dinosaurs have confirmed that some of them were cannibals. (google) The largest extinction took place around 250 million years ago. Known as the Permian-Triassic extinction, or the Great Dying, this event saw the end of more than 90 percent of the Earth's species. Nature = birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the cycle of life – before manBirth | Growth | Life | | Death | Rebirth | Birth | Growth | Life | | Death | Afterlife |
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| Rosh Hashanah | Yom Kippur | Sukkot | Pirum | Pesach | Shavuot | From the beginning | Do I need to atone? | God tabernacles with man | Salvation is of the Lord | Passover Passover Passover | Pentecost | From God we came | Isa 54:13 Prov 1:8-9 Mat 19:14 | Jer 1:5 | John 3:16 | Rom 6:23 | Pentecost Communion |
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| Birth | Growth | Life | | Death | Rebirth/afterlife |
Nature = birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the cycle of life – before manAll of nature – all of creation witnesses to the Glory of God and the truth of scripture
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2022 16:42:47 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, Yep you sure get stressed....how about we get back to the task at hand?I say along with Mrs White, that coal came from plants/ ie wood, during the Great Flood. Dave denies this idea. You say "plant material ended up as coal" during day 3 of Creation. No further details given and no proof of your theory. To validate your proof you have to support the idea that God created natural balance of entropy that including natural dying, decomposition and death of plants and animals.So this means the GOD of living, is not a GOD of living at all, and only at best a God able to deal with natural entropy, that includes decomposition and natural death. What a non-absolute Creator you serve. I showed you the Creation God created in Rev 22, but you ignore this, yes you say God will do this in the future but did not do this for Adam in the past? Where is your proof for this idea? God does not change. (There is a Bible verse for this) I find He is absolute in all He creates. If God is living than the plants were never meant to naturally die, they lived for over 2000 years before the Great Flood took them away. Some may have died, as Adam sinned, bringing a curse of missing God's powers over His Creation. You ignore God's curse during sin as well. Here is some research into coal made from wood. www.dawn.com/news/799475/turning-wood-into-coalP alestinian workers cover the holes of smokes coming from a pile of smoldering wood during the process of turning wood into coal at one of the few local charcoal manufacturing shops, east of Gaza City.Rob" If humans can turn wood into coal for industrial use/ charcoal etc, how much faster could a flood with 3 Kms of rock and pressure and heat do this same process? www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/03/16/Machine-makes-wood-chips-a-coal-substitute/53921237221323/RALEIGH, N.C., March 16 (UPI) -- North Carolina State University scientists say they've created a machine that turns wood chips into a coal substitute by using a process called torrefaction.
Environmentalists have long been concerned about the environmental impact of burning of fossil fuels -- especially coal. The combustion of coal contributes to acid rain and air pollution and has been connected with global warming.Rob" Removing the chemical from plant material is the first step, leaving you with charcoal, which is squeezed under pressure and heat into coal. All processes a great Flood event could do in a few months. www.thoughtco.com/all-about-coal-1440944That set of circumstances has never recurred, and the coals of the Carboniferous (and the following Permian Period) are the undisputed champions of their type. It has been argued that about 300 million years ago, some fungus species evolved the ability to digest wood, and that was the end of the great age of coal, although younger coal beds do exist. A genome study in Science gave that theory more support in 2012. If the wood was immune to rot before 300 million years ago, then perhaps anoxic conditions were not always necessary.Rob" They are speaking of wood turning into coal. If coal is subjected to still more heat and pressure, it becomes a metamorphic rock as the macerals finally crystallize into a true mineral, graphiteRob" Coal is just a fancy term for Carbon deposits, including graphite. Still more valuable is the fate of deeply buried carbon, which at conditions found in the mantle is transformed into a new crystalline form: diamond. However, coal probably oxidizes long before it can get into the mantle, so only Superman could perform that trick.Rob" Why can't God do this, great flood and volcanoes bursting through the carbon deposits, forming diamonds along the way, in minutes. An electron picture showing coal comes from wood. Looks like coal comes from wood to me. This is a picture of coal under the electron microscope. How was this achieved ? Easily, by a Great Flood in a matter of months. Now if you are going to rebuttal this idea, you have to (1) Prove God deals with natural cycles of life and death as part of a sinless Creation. And since we discovered "choshek" was involved in Adam's Creation, we have studied why this "RA" was included in Adam's Creation, haven't we? You ignore my studies. You ignore the Ez 28 that cherubims sinned before humans sinned. Obviously to me, God was creating Earth during a SINNING event, and wanted the humans to get victory over the SINNING event, so the humans could clear up God's Name, and the demands by these SINNING cheribums, the war in heaven, another verse you twist and ignore. In your discredit of Mrs White, you shift the coal formation to Day 3 rather than 1656 years after Adam was created. Same evidence you present, but we disagree over the time of the formation. You pick a very difficult subject in which to discredit her. A better use of time, is to view under the electron microscope for coal samples that show wood made from silica rather than cellulose. Since my theory says GOD would NOT have made wood prior to the Adam's sinning, out of cellulose, that requires the dead of the tree. Originally the trees would have used silica for their trunks, is my prediction. Such a study would split our two theories. Your theory says God made the trees from cellulose from the beginning. No trees made of silica should not exist, according to your theory. According to my theory, there should be evidence of trees made of silica, which is non-living but used to make the structure for tree trunks. Or can one make cellulose without the tree chemistry dying? Not sure? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 10, 2022 18:22:39 GMT -5
Robert – my Gnostic cosmology has withstood 2 ½ years of your attack I finally put Ellen White to the same treatment and you fold on the very first series of questionsMy question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NTThe authors of the agl/NT were the very disciples of Jesus Christ - they walked and talk with Jesus Christ in public and in private – both before and after His Resurrection Yet you mock their writings – and accuse them of being heretics because they do not support Roman theology – instead they support a very Jewish theology – imagine that Still no response from youYou pick a very difficult subject in which to discredit her. Then move on to the next question – prove to us that Ellen White does not contradict scriptureI say along with Mrs White, that coal came from plants/ ie wood, during the Great Flood. Dave denies this idea. You say "plant material ended up as coal" during day 3 of Creation. No further details given and no proof of your theory.Excuse me Mr HonestDillon posted a video on the topic + gave you many links to the scienceTo validate your proof you have to support the idea that God created natural balance of entropy that including natural dying, decomposition and death of plants and animals. So this means the GOD of living, is not a GOD of living at all, and only at best a God able to deal with natural entropy, that includes decomposition and natural death.All your reality = biology I believe in the spirit– Life Lives – the salvation of the soul – and communion with the Spirit - you deny the spirit So this means the GOD of living, - spiritual – Life Lives – the salvation of the soul – and communion with the Spirit - you deny the spirit natural entropy, that includes decomposition and natural death.YES – deliberate intelligent designed written into nature for any serious seeker to discoverRom 1:18-20 + Psa 19:2 + Isa 45:7 + Col 1:16 + John 1:1-4 You preach nothing was allowed to eat – or reproduce until Adam sinned You preach that the commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply is a sinI showed you the Creation God created in Rev 22, but you ignore this, yes you say God will do this in the future but did not do this for Adam in the past? Where is your proof for this idea?The creation for Adam include choshek and the serpentWhy do you preach that the New Heaven and the New Earth also contain the Beast – that ancient serpent – that we call the devil and satanas. Not only do you violate dispensation – you now have your satan god surviving the Lake of Fire to continue to exist in the New Heaven and EarthYou sure think a lot of your satan godGod does not change. I find He is absolute in all He creates. NO YOU DO NOT – there is nothing left of God’s tov creation according to you – it is a fallen worldHere is some research into coal made from wood.Who cares – man has been making diamonds for years www.thoughtco.com/all-about-coal-1440944That set of circumstances has never recurred, and the coals of the Carboniferous (and the following Permian Period) are the undisputed champions of their type. It has been argued that about 300 million years ago, some fungus species evolved the ability to digest wood, and that was the end of the great age of coal, although younger coal beds do exist. A genome study in Science gave that theory more support in 2012. If the wood was immune to rot before 300 million years ago, then perhaps anoxic conditions were not always necessary. Rob" They are speaking of wood turning into coal.YES THEY ARE – in the Carboniferous (and the following Permian Period)R" The paper uses the term "evolve" a term Dave doesn't like, so you cannot uses this paper??(google) The Four Eras of the Geologic Time Scale The Cambrian Explosion, a relatively rapid period of speciation that kicked off a long period of life flourishing on Earth. …
The end of this time span saw the rise of a few more complex animals in the oceans, such as jellyfish. There was still no life on land, and the atmosphere was just beginning to accumulate the oxygen required for higher-order animals to survive. …
After the Permian Extinction caused so many species to go extinct, a wide variety of new species evolved and thrived during the Mesozoic Era, which is also known as the "age of the dinosaurs" since dinosaurs were the dominant species of the age. ...Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout grass, green plants yielding seed, fruit trees making fruit, each according to its species with seed in it, upon the land.” And it happened so. Gen 1:12 The land brought forth grass, green plants yielding seed, each according to its species, and trees making fruit with the seed in it, each according to its species. And God saw that it was good. Gen 1:13 So there was evening and there was morning—a third day. Day 3 came before day 4Gen 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures! Let flying creatures fly above the land across the expanse of the sky.” Gen 1:21 Then God created the large sea creatures and every living creature that crawls, with which the water swarms, according to their species, as well as every winged flying creature, according to their species. And God saw that it was good. Gen 1:22 Then God blessed them by saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the water in the seas. Let the flying creatures multiply on the land.” Gen 1:23 So there was evening and there was morning—a fifth day. Day 4 came before Day 5 - And there is no more creation after Day 6Incremental Creation – science validating scripture – scripture validating scienceFossils from Day 3 are found in coal Fossils from days 5 and 6 are found above the coal layer Fossils from Days 5 and 6 are always under the iridium layer Fossils and the coal seams validate that the continents were once mated together to form on continuous crust The Flood of Noah is the breakup of our continents Fossils and coal both predate the Flood
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2022 15:38:43 GMT -5
D" Then move on to the next question – prove to us that Ellen White does not contradict scriptureR" OK, your insistence that " Fossils and coal both predate the Flood" cannot be proved by you, it seems, so it's a stale mate, and very difficult proving to you that natural death and decomposition was NOT a part of the Creation design for Adam's sinless and deathless Creation. Animals can multiple and eat and grow without death and decomposition. God designed that leaves off plants can be eaten safely without harming the plants. All food contain soluble fiber so there was no excrement required. Imagine that? Now that is a Creation nothing like we have today. There is a lot of evidence plants used silica as a major part of the internal structure, and I suspect cellulose was not a chemical in the original Creation, such chemical came after Adam sinned. Anyhow, I will try another question, a little easier for us to discuss hopefully. -----------------------------------------question 6----------------------------------------- 6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL? EGW: YES " The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).
BIBLE: NO " For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20).
Dave adds Eph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, Mat 25:34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world; Scripture does not support Ellen WhiteRob replies: "He was chosen before the creation of the world," Notice Jesus was chosen to be a sacrifice for sinning should sin occur, before the Adam creation occurred.
Think about that verse? Why would GOD have a solution for SIN, before SIN occurs?
(1) God knows and plans for all things, and since love has risk, God planned for disobedience.
Yes, but the verse says "precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."
Why would GOD plan for the shedding of blood for sinning? Can Dave answer this question?
Can anybody on the Internet answer this question?
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1326.htm
I looked for anybody answering this question, why was Jesus blood shed for sinning? Why couldn't the Father just forgive the sinning for sins, as a part of his grace or kindness?
This is what Mrs White is talking from this passage:
"The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man" God showed kindness to Adam when Adam sinned (His wife and himself are considered one flesh in a sinless marriage) This statement has to include that the plan for atonement was established before God shows His grace, so I find neither statement is in conflict.Mrs White writes this message from God:Christ and him crucified, his love and infinite sacrifice-showing that the reason why Christ died is because the law of God is immutable, unchangeable, eternal. (The Southern Work, page 70)
So if the answer to why Jesus died a blood sacrifice is in the LAW, and the LAW is immutable, unchangeable and eternal, than the solution for a SIN problem is written in the LAW, before grace was applied to when ADAM sinned. Neither statements are in conflict.
Question: Where in the " immutable, unchangeable, eternal LAW" is this answer written?
Since the royal torah has little specifics of LAW, one must look into the judgements to see how GOD uses the royal law for specific applications to human sinning. This allows us to see how sinning will also apply to other creatures that would have done sinning also.
Question: Is mankind the only creature to have done sinning? Answer no.
But Dave ignores this question, and totally creates a different course of looking at torah.
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
This is the ONLY passage from explaining the " immutable, unchangeable, eternal LAW" that deals with SINNING and the punishment for MISCHIEF who causes a RA to happen to somebody else.
Dave says the verse deals with humans only? Hmm? Yes but it also applies to all creatures created by God, who cause mischief.
The passage seems to imply that only a mischief maker who is used to sinning, influences others who are sinless to also sin. This verse speaks right back to the very first agent who began the custom of sinning.
“Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor yet that He should offer Himself often as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with the blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” [Hebrews 9:24-26.] “This man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God.” [Hebrews 10:12.] Christ entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. “Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.” [Hebrews 7:25.] He has qualified Himself to be not only man's representative, but his advocate, so that every soul, if he will, may say, I have a Friend at court, a High Priest who is touched with the feeling of my infirmities.Passages like this quoted and used by Mrs White say that Jesus suffered before the foundation of the world, and now appeared ONCE to remove sin-offerings for sinning, I have a Friend at court, a High Priest, touched with the feelings of my infirmities. So the plan was established for SIN, and SINNING before Adam was created, but the plan was set into motion immediately after Adam's sinning. How is this a conflict? One deals with the immutable eternal laws established for mischief and sin caused by mischief, and the other deals with grace, the kindness of Jesus to pay His life for our life, caused by the mischief maker.Jeff Benner for H582Adopted Roots (Three Letter) - E 302
Nf1) )WRE ()WRE AN-ShH) —
Woman: [ar: hsn] [freq. 1] |kjv:
wife| {str: 5389}
bm) 7MRE (7MRE A-NYSh) —
Man: [ms: sya] [freq. 1639] |kjv:
man, one, husband, any| {str: 376,
377}
bf1) )WMRE ()WMRE A-NY-ShH)
— Woman: [ms: hsya] [freq. 780]
|kjv: wife, woman, one, married,
female| {str: 802}
c
m) 7JRE (7JRE A-NWSh) —
Man: [freq. 564] |kjv: man, husband,
merchantmen, person| {str: 582} ~~~~~~~~~~Why two Hebrew words both meaning Man? Hmm?Ex 21:22 ¶ If men <'enowsh> strive to cause mischief:Ge 6:4 first use of, the "men of renown"Ge 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.Hard looking for treasure in the Scriptures? Hmm?In your reply Dave I see conflict in our views:You do not have an " immutable, unchangeable, eternal LAW" that applies to all creatures, including God Himself, as well as cherubims and man, and all the creatures He creates.You seem to think God creates creatures doing natural mischief....For example the lion with hurt the sheep...Scripture says God did not create the lion as a carnivore, but a herbivore like cattle.Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock.How come the lion is a carnivore today?Ge 3:17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;Those animals able to seek food apart from plants with poorer nutrition, do so as God gave many animals adaptability. (already written in their DNA)So lions eat herbivores, but the king lion eats the paunch first, and leaves the poorer meat to others. Many free living worms seek food sources elsewhere, as the DNA allowed them to adapt. Hence they became parasites. But if the ground was not cursed, they would not need these methods of surviving in other ways. Mrs WHite writes of the "immutable laws" that existed before eternity, before even cheribums existed. "John cannot find adequate words wherein to describe the amazing love of God to sinful man, but he calls upon all to behold the love of God revealed in the gift of His only begotten Son. Through the perfection of the sacrifice given for the guilty race, those who believe in Christ ... may be saved from eternal ruin. Christ was one with the Father, yet when sin entered our world through Adam's transgression, He was willing to step down from the exaltation of One who was equal with God, who dwelt in light unapproachable by humanity, so full of glory that no man could behold His face and live, and submit to insult, mockery, suffering, pain, and death, in order to answer the claims of the immutable law of God, and make a way of escape for the transgressor by His death and righteousness. This was the work which His Father gave Him to do, and those who accept Christ, relying wholly upon His merits, are made the adopted sons and daughters of God—are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.... So if the laws existed before creation, than there was provision for a life giving sacrifice for sinning creatures. And later when one sinned and forfeit that living, the Saviour immediately agrees to pay the penalty for the mischief caused by the mischief maker.However Dave does not consider the serpent did any mischief to Eve. That is not true. It might be true that the Serpent did not technically lie to Eve, (not sure I agree with Jeff Benner's claim??) but the serpent did present a false report of GOD, and thus in this sense sinned before God. Here is a false report:Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:These words negate God's words, and hence is a false report.So in my view we have a mischief maker doing mischief, hence the LAW I show here is applicable, and shows the penalty for this mischief is life for life.Now you are reading a mockers presentation twisting sentences Mrs White wrote in order to discredit her words, and thus cause confusion. If you seek all the writings on the subject, there is no confusion. However there are many aspect of this post that highlights our different views already.ShalomHappy Shabbath
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2022 15:52:04 GMT -5
No comments for question 6 yet, so let's try question 7 today. ------------------- 7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN?
EGW: NO "The angels had cautioned Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labor in the garden; with him she would be in less temptation than if she were alone. But absorbed in her pleasing task, she unconsciously wandered from his side. On perceiving that she was alone, she felt an apprehension of danger. ... She soon found herself gazing with mingled curiosity and admiration upon the forbidden tree" (Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 53, 54).
BIBLE: YES "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it" (Genesis 3:6).
Apologist: This is an argument over semantics, insisting that "with her" (KJV, NASB, RSV, Amp & Darby versions, among others, do not include the words "who was" [with her]) means that he had been with her during her entire walk to the Tree and conversation with the serpent.
Gen 3:6 καὶ εἶδεν ἡ γυνὴ ὅτι καλὸν τὸ ξύλον εἰς βρῶσιν καὶ ὅτι ἀρεστὸν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἰδεῖν καὶ ὡραῖόν ἐστιν τοῦ κατανοῆσαι, καὶ λαβοῦσα τοῦ καρποῦ αὐτοῦ ἔφαγεν· καὶ ἔδωκεν καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον.
καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον. And - to – man – of hers – with – her – she supplied And to her man with her she supplied And to her man with her she gave
ἀνδρὶ - G435 - ἀνήρ - A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir. μετ᾿ - G3326 – μετά – meta - A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment;
The Greek (LXX) does not support Ellen White Scripture does not support Ellen White-------------------- I put the LXX and the Bible Hub Hebrew Interlinear over two English versions to test this verse in details for readers. First thing I notice is sometimes the prefix in front of "tree" can mean "the tree" and in the same verse "a tree", sounds very inconsistent Hebrew translating to me. Second the "tree" is not translated by the LXX into Greek (only first occurrence is) Third the Greek does not translate the word "also" but uses the same Greek word "kai" meaning "and" but for some reason has a different meaning here as "also". Weird? I am not sure why Greek has the "autos" , perhaps helps to know the verb as "she or her"? Dave make comment of the prefix in Hebrew, the Greek word "meta", meaning "with". Question: Was Adam the whole time with His wife, and therefore next to her? Answer: No There are some simple Hebrew cultural rules that tell us Adam was NOT next to his wife the whole time. When both gender male and gender female are together, the gender male is referenced. The only time gender female is referenced, is when she is separated or alone from gender male company. Consider the word "ruwach" which has feminine grammar as it's case. Not really a reference to gender female beings, however we will overlook this bias for now. The ruwach is almost always in the present of the elohiym powers, so we never see whom the ruwach as a personality, except for one verse. Ho 4:19 The wind hath bound her up in her wings, (KJV) Why is wind referenced as her wings? Because the ruwach here is referenced alone and we see the term as feminine in case referenced as her wings. Now consider the Hebrew in the presence of gender male and gender female company. I shall use the Hebrew words ahab and ahabuh as examples of feminine personalities, as I am no expert in Hebrew grammar. However ahab usually refers to gender male love and ahabuh usually refers to gender female love. Though bear in mind that gender males can show femaleness love. So I use this as a guide for personality expressions. When the ruwach is with company, you never see the pronoun her or she, because the Hebrew always considered the masculine first. Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: There are two divine Beings mentioned in this verse. The YHWH who is masculine was afflicted by the stiff necked Israelite's. It could mean in His femaleness love He redeemed them, or it could reference the Holy Spirit's femaleness love, who was helping YHWH in His salvation of Israel. Both are possibilities. What is interesting is the Holy Spirit is mentioned in company with YHWH. But the point is the grammar uses the masculine as a reference. Jeff Benner explains this kind of cultural Hebrew when boy and girls are playing in the playground, the reference is to masculine plural, the girls are not mentioned. So in simple terms, if Adam was indeed with Eve the whole time, the serpent would not be allowed to speak to Eve alone, Hebrew does not demand this, and it is highly disrespectful to speak to the woman of the home in the presence of the master of the home. I suspect both of them were in the garden, but the woman became separated from her husband. This is found in Hebrew here: De 32:4 He is the Rock, The tsuwr rock is a simile of the Father De 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? The YHWH is speaking to Israel of the Father that bought thee. De 32:8 When the most High A reference to the Father.. De 32:11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: A simile expression of the HS who bear us her young in her wings. Notice the Father and the HS are mentioned now. De 32:12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. Jeff Benner explains that badad does not mean "alone" but more "separated". You can be all in the heavens, but one is separated from the others, idea. Anyhow, this is my two pennies on this verse. It took my many hours to gather the LXX and the Hebrew with the English interlinear into one place. Shalom
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