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Post by Dave on Feb 27, 2022 23:57:12 GMT -5
"OK tell is – according to Ellen White how many sins does it take to be a sinner?" no angel can record sins in your mind, sins that are no sins because they are forgiven automatically by Jesus, a sin-offering not unto death, another Bible verse you ignore? I asked you a direct question A You posted B – you mock the idea that it only took one sin for Eve to regret it So answer the question – if one sin is not enough – how many sins does it take to be a sinner
R" Why woudl God create this "Yalboath, the chief archon shedim devil, to be a (yester ra) creature – self - selfish" who is a "sar" a prince of this world? Do you know what a "prince or king" implies Dave? SUddenly all the pieces fall into place?
Jewish answer – God made it that way – God knows what he is doing – God is absolute Jewish answer – God made everything
Gnostic answer
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world
Why would GOD create a prince of earth, and than come to overthrow the prince of the earth? The Beast just appeared as a plurality 10 and 7 The beast – is military style hierarchy Generals – ‘sars’ – privates The beast is the master of all Gen 1:1 creation – all physicality Planet earth is just one planet – one area – Gnostic literature is not clear if it is the beast himself that is the ‘sar’ of earth – or just one of his generals
The Free Will choice before man is world or God Jesus came to help us into the correct choice – God - and to make that choice open to everyone
RP " Why than did Jesus called the chief archon/shedim a prince of this world than? D" Because this is their kingdom – their domain and has been since the beginning They were here first R" Yes and no Dave. Under stand what a prince is, a younger lesser king.
YES - the beast is the King of his kingdom – DUH YES – there is a ‘sar’ over this planet earth – all part of the beast kingdom
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. We have fought alot over the word meaning of "kathistemi" OK it means to "establish" - SO how is a human "kathistemi" "established" as a sinning human?
When the first tire went flat – it is an indication that all tires will fail The first time fire burns – is an indication that fire always burns The first time water froze at 0C– is an indication that water will always freeze at 0C WHEN MAN first sinned – is just an indication that all men sin
All men are created equal – unfortunately it only proves all men are animals (yester ra) sinners Man cannot help it because we are 100% biology and that comes with a (yester ra) programming for self preservation
Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.”
And how does a human become "established" as straight (by Jesus)? John 3:16 – one and once is enough for all past and present
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. YES – all of this WORLD shall pass away – all of the Kingdom of the Beast will pass away
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rp" Isn't that going beyond programming? - D" Or is it the full expression of their programming? R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam?
Deu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
Jer 17:10 I Adonai search the heart, I try the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.
Psa 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.”
R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam? 1 – God Test man – seeking the Prodigal Son – seeking the Jobs of this world
Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Jas 1:15 Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death.
R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam? 2- God does not test man himself – he has a staff for that God did not test Job directly – he sent another God did not stand up and incite David (2Sam24:1) He sent another (Chr21:1)
R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam? 3- God sends us out into the wilderness – into the world – He lets us go seeking the Prodigal Son – seeking the Jobs of this world
4- Man is made in God’s image – who came to earth (Jer 1:5) and returned to heaven From God we came – we souljourn here to (Jer 1:5) and to God we return
Psa 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me: Your rod and Your staff comfort me.
D"Did these 200 or so archon/angels sin – YES = sinning angels Jude 1:6 2 Pet 2:4 Locked away R" OH so you admit there were some sinning angels, so are these TWO different kinds of BAD on earth? No just one type – but one group of them went too far – and are punished That sinning group is locked away – removed from the world Sure the rest of the archon remain
Plus a good angel termed attorney making sure God is fully aware of every sin we humans ever do? Mock away Robert – who cares – you only insult yourself Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord Yes – Zec 3 one service he provides is as the heavenly prosecutor NHL Gnostic literature supports Jewish theology
D"YES – the Nephilim survive the flood – and as man killed them they became the evil spirits trapped to this earth R" Now who has an overdone passion for bad creatures? You do, you have lots of evil spirits doing all kinds of things and we have to know our enemies? Really? Fight the good fight of faith, Scripture says first. Why do you deny scripture – or why did God command the genocide of the Sons of Anak?
D"The offering to Jesus in the wilderness was only the WORLD And the WORLD will pass away – temporary R" YOu you neglect the term "prince".... no where (and you agree) is ever a dumb animal termed a "prince". YES – the ‘prince’ is made with some matter because he is of the beast Yes – the archon and the beast and the WORLD will all pass away
RP" why would God created these selfish creatures (yester ra) – only to kill them in the Lake of Fire All animals of earth are (yester ra) – and they will all pass away with the earth - DUH
2- 1Co 6:3 Don’t you know that we will judge angels?
We Christians that have received the Divine Pardon – perhaps we Christian that were purified by Proportional Punishment – we Christians who have finally understood the greatest commandments – love God and love your fellow man as He loves us
FUnny I thought angels are programmed spirit beings without free will, hence have no moral laws to obey, yet you agree 200 angels sinned and are locked away? You are illogical to say the least. Yes these 200 Watchers took on flesh and then sinned in the flesh
RP" Explain than how one YHWH is in heaven and the same time as one YHWH is on earth, both causing the destruction of Sodom? How can an expression be separated by space? in two different entities?
D" Easy answer – God is omnipresent R" What two different bodies? separated by space? So your theory is GOD can be a billion bodies all over the world all separated by space and yet the same entity? You just doubt that God is absolute
RP" However one could charge God with sin, if GOD intentionally created animals to make man sin. Explain D" Correct. God ordered the hit upon Job one could charge God with sin – if you did not define the word But if you define the word as – disobedience to God or a transgression of God’s Commandments – then how can God disobey Himself? R" God can disobey Himself by breaking his own laws. That is why GOD has laws.
God breaks the 10 Commandments all the time – those Laws are written for man
RP" Are you saying the humans who choose yester ra are given second chances again to make it to heaven? D" All believers who have graduated from Proportional Punishment = the First Resurrection R" Answer my question with y/n?
YES – believers who missed out on being first fruits will be all judgen according to their deeds, works, and fruit
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.
D"belief is all that is required for eternal life – bad Christians are just as saved to eternal life as good Christians R" wow, so even the wicked get a chance to be saved after they die Not all believers are perfect – some are weak believers and some are strong believers with strong convictions
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.
Yes you saved or your not – is just black and white Not consistent with scripture or the sense of fairness
D"Correct – animals are given the commandment to grow and multiply – in nature little fish eat microbes – big fish eat them – bigger fish eat them – once they die – scavengers eat them – them microbes – them fungi eat them –
Nature is one large eating machine – stars eat hydrogen – black hole eat stars R" Has it ever occurred to you all this might be the result of missing God's powers, rather than God creating it that way?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth, Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse—
D"YES - GREAT QUESTION – NAILED IT Easy answer – the point of this web-site and my ministry – finally an interesting topic other that your satan
Before the flood – there was a very active and viable biological ecosystem – but no snow or rain RP" how do you explain chaos happening to the creation, when it didn't rain, or snow until after the flood? D" Because the atmospheric conditions changed from a Jupiter sized Gas Giant protoplanet to a water world with 7 separate continents and a very thin atmosphere R" what?
“the point of this web-site and my ministry” – do you know who you are talking to? – such respect WEDD + FD-WEDT
It is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for me
RP"Jesus called him the father of sinning D" Please present your scripture Rob " Are you denying that Jesus called the prince archon, a father of lies and a murderer? JOhn 8:44 NO – just denying that your verse calls him the father of sinning D"Sin entered the world throungh Eve (Adam) man - why do you deny scripture? R" yes for humans, correct? I am glad we agree
D"Sorry Robert Paul is also the author of Gnostic literature banned from your view by Rome R" That is an assumption. How do we know Paul wrote those letters? That is you only defense attack the source So – were the dead Sea Scrolls written by Jews? If Moses wrote the Torah – how did he include his own death and burial? Gospel of Mark has multiple authors Several agl/NT book has insertions by other writers There is a big question if Paul wrote Hebrews
How come they were not published over and over until Rome came along in 300 AD? like the common received torah was published over and over until 300 AD?
Now you see this sort of pisses me off We spent a year discussing the Roman edit – what did you learn? Anything And you ask Why were they sought out and destroyed by Rome and not published over and over Unlike the official Roman version that was published many times
It is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for me
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Post by Dave on Feb 28, 2022 6:37:09 GMT -5
D" Because the atmospheric conditions changed from a Jupiter sized Gas Giant protoplanet to a water world with 7 separate continents and a very thin atmosphere R" what?“the point of this web-site and my ministry” – do you know who you are talking to? – such respect WEDD + FD-WEDTIt is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for meWe spent a year discussing the Roman edit – what did you learn? Anything And you askWhy were they sought out and destroyed by Rome and not published over and over Unlike the official Roman version that was published many timesIt is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for meI asked you to show me from scripture proof that your satan is God’s oppoentIt is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for meI have asked you a direct question ADoes Ellen White contradict scriptureSo far you have changed the subject to B, C, D, E, F, GBut no answer to my direct questionDoes Ellen White contradict scripture?Use your own absolute standard - one error and all of it must be total garbage You say you have trusted your immortal soul to Ellen White and her satan teachingIt has been a full 2 and ½ years of talking in circles – and you still cannot defend you own theology You just keep repeating Ezk 28 over and over like a trained parrot – hoping it will come true If fact – with the information you have provided – Ellen White and the SDA preach against Mainstream Judaism and Mainstream Christianity – all in favor of supporting satan as a the god of evilBut no spirit – no eternal life – multiple gods in heaven and denial of the archon gods on earth – and a weak god of tov locked in a conflict with the stronger god of evil that can change all God’s Creation against God’s WillIt is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for me
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2022 15:43:07 GMT -5
I take it by your short reply, none which answers our detailed posts before, you are so of over discussing, or you have run out of discussions. As a miracle of the Lord I reckon today I received, this email from the Messanic Jews, and what a blast it does to your Gnostic view. I will post it for you in it's entirety. Messianic Prophecy of Genesis 3:15 - Jewish Rabbis and Christian Viewpoints
Messianic Bible <info@biblesforisrael.com> Unsubscribe To: rthom7@yahoo.com.au
Mon, 28 Feb at 10:56 pm "God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, ... And God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:25) YES, I Stand with the Jewish People in Ukraine and their Jewish President Zelensky Shalom Rob, Do you know where in the Bible we find God's first promise to send the Messiah? The answer is foundational to our faith because within this first Messianic Prophecy mentioned in the Bible lies our fate of eternal separation from God. It also reveals our Father’s promise to send someone who will restore us back into eternal life with Him. Let’s look at this prophecy in Genesis 3:15 that Christians call the First Gospel. Here, God tells the serpent: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [seed/ zera] and her offspring [seed/ zera]. He will pound your head, and you will bite his heel.” (Artscroll Tanach) Of course, followers of Yeshua believe the seed refers to Him as the coming Messiah and Deliverer. Believers are assured that Yeshua is this Deliverer because every prophecy about the Messiah that follows clarifies his mission and reveals a little more about when, where, and how he will be born, live and die. But many modern Rabbis today believe that the idea of a Messiah did not begin until the late eighth century BC, about 500 years after Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. Here we will unravel this ancient prophecy through Jewish literature and Christian thought and discover who is the seed that would pound on the head of the serpent. The Temptation of Eve (c. 1130s) by sculptor Gislebertus. (Photo by Welleschik; license CC BY-SA 3.0; cropped) The Choice Is Free “Did God actually say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree of the garden’?” asks the serpent. (Genesis 3:1) Eve ponders the serpent’s question. Though God told her not to eat from that one tree in the center of the garden, lest she die, she picks its fruit, examines it, and considers the serpent’s words: “You surely will not die,” he says. On the contrary, “your eyes will be opened and you’ll become like elohim.” Eve’s choice is free. The consequence is expensive. Obey God’s word and live. Disobey and die. She bites! Raiders of the Lost Ark - staring at the Serpent (YouTube capture; fair use) Why Did It Have to Be Snakes? “Why did it have to be snakes?” asks Indiana Jones. We can ask the same about the account of Creation. Snakes have been honored and even worshipped, giving and taking life, in ancient mythologies and creation stories throughout the ancient Near East and Orient. This leads skeptics to believe that Moses made up the serpent and the entire Creation story. After all, he grew up in Egypt, a land where cobras symbolized the divine authority and protection of the sun god Ra. But it is just as likely that these ancient polytheistic religions acquired bits and pieces of the original creation account verbally through the generations. Even after the Great Flood, Noah and his descendants would have transmitted that account throughout the world. Moreover, the serpent in Genesis 3:1 has a specific function that is unlike many mythological snakes. In discovering what that function is, we find some insight embedded in the original Hebrew letters of the word, which were pictorial. The Egyptian sun god Ra. Above his head is the Eye of Ra, a sun disk with a cobra encircled around it. (Illustration by Käyttäjä:Kompak; wikicommons license: cc-by-sa-2.5) The Hebrew word for serpent is nachash (נָחָשׁ). If we look at the original word pictures for each of these letters, we can get some insight into the serpent’s mission and purpose. The picture for nun (נ) is a seed or fish and means life or activity. The picture for chet (ח) is a fence or wall and means separation or private. The picture for shin (ש) is teeth and means to destroy, consume, or sharpen. In this light form of word study, we find that nachash can represent the fencing in of a life for the purpose of destroying it. By luring Eve into disobedience, the nachash fenced in humanity, placing us in bondage to his world, and sentencing us to separation from God forever. A fenced-in sheep Who Is This Serpent? In the early days of Creation, we are not told who exactly the serpent is or where he came from. But in Genesis 3:1, we discover that his success as nachash comes by being crafty and cunning: “Now the serpent [nachash] was craftier than any wild animal in the field which Yehovah God had made.” We are told in Jewish literature that this serpent is none other than satan, the adversary angel who “rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1; as described by the Bible philosopher and grammarian Rabbi David Kimhi–AD 1160–1235, known by the acronym RaDaK, in his commentary on Genesis 3:15). The Hebrew word for adversary is satan. Although in English we tend to make Satan a proper name by capitalizing it, in Hebrew, it is usually used as a common noun throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament) to mean “adversary.” In the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) the Greek words satanas (satan) and diabolos (devil) are used interchangeably. Diabolos means slanderer, someone who falsely accuses another to malign and destroy them. Of course, lying about God is part of satan’s strategic success as well. Illustration by Gustav Dore (1832-1883) depicting the Fall of Satan in John Milton’s "Paradise Lost" (1866). Though the adversary won a great victory over humanity in seducing Eve to disobey God, he did not stop there. Once he realized that God would send a seed of Eve to defeat him, the adversary turned his attention to destroying Eve's lineage and preventing this seed from arriving. He tempted God’s anointed King David from whose lineage the Messiah would come (see Micah 5:2) to move his heart toward glorifying himself (1 Chronicles 21:1–17). By counting how many men under his command were fit for war, David could for a moment forget that God provided these men for His own glory, not David’s. Nathan Rebukes David, by James Tissot David’s choice to take a census of Israel was free for him to make. The consequence to Israel was mandatory and expensive. Seventy thousand men in King David’s kingdom died. The Lord has a way of removing from our lives that which we desire more than Him. In His great mercy, though, God preserved David’s bloodline and the Messianic promise. Yet, we each must recognize the adversary’s strategy to lure us into desiring and acquiring pride, glory, power, anything more than God Himself—and understand the dire consequences of choosing to follow those desires. How do we do that? We can follow the example of Yeshua when the adversary tried to tempt Him. Jesus Tempted, by Carl Heinrich Bloch (1834–1890) Throughout the Brit Chadashah, we find satan tempting, prowling, seeking whom he can destroy. His primary target was Yeshua. Yeshua resisted every temptation even during great physical weakness. How? He confronted Satan with the Word of God while being full of the Spirit of God. In doing so, he exited the wilderness victorious and empowered. The Spirit of God and knowledge of God’s Word gives us this same strength (Luke 4:1–13). The psalmist tells us, “Thy word have I laid up in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalm 119:11) When he did not succeed in destroying Yeshua, the adversary focused his slander and deception toward luring others away from God’s Word and His Kingdom. Yet, we are not to fear the serpent's schemes to destroy our eternal destiny. Though we will certainly die physically, we don't have to die spiritually. God placed hope for our spiritual victory over death back in the first pages of Genesis. Who Is Our Hope? “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [seed/ zera] and her offspring [seed/ zera]. He will pound your head, and you will bite his heel.” (Genesis 3:15) God first revealed the hope for all mankind against the adversary when he promised that Eve’s seed / offspring (zera) would pound or crush the head of the serpent. It might seem that offspring could mean a lot of people, such as the nation of Israel or all humankind, and that has been the great debate among Jewish scholars for centuries. But God goes on to tell the serpent that “he will pound your head.” Of course, Christians believe “he” refers to a coming Messiah—Yeshua. But who did Moses and other ancient Jewish sages say “he” is? Moses Pleading with Israel, as in Deuteronomy 6:1-15. Illustration from a Bible card published 1907 by the Providence Lithograph Company (Photo: Public Domain, cropped, retouched) In 1300 BC, Moses wrote about the last days (acharit-hayamim, בְּאַחֲרִ֥ית הַיָּמִֽים), which indicates that he likely understood a final deliverance and deliverer would one day arrive. (Genesis 49; Numbers 24:14; Deuteronomy 4:30) During the days of Yeshua, a translation of Genesis 3:15 (with added commentary) was read to the people in their common language of Aramaic. This translation, known as Targum Yonatan, tells us that on one hand we all are in a power struggle with the adversary in choosing to do good while resisting our selfish, evil desires. On the other hand, it affirms that we are waiting for the coming of King Meshiha (Messiah in Aramaic) to heal the wounds caused by the adversary when we sin, and to win us an everlasting freedom. Targum Yonatan writes that “they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.” (Genesis 3:15, Targum Yonatan, which is attributed to the work of Jonathan (Yonatan) ben Uzziel, c. 50 BC) Orthodox worshipers pray, sing, play the violin, and dance in the synagogue at King David's Tomb. In the first and second century, a Rabbinic commentary (known as a Midrash) clearly defines the seed as Messiah: “Rabbi Tanchuma said, in the name of Rabbi Samuel: Eve had respect to that seed (“offspring”) which is coming from another place. And who is this? This is the King Messiah.” (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 23:5) A millennium later, Radak also seems to point to the seed as Messiah, writing: “As You went forth for the salvation of Your people by the hands of Meshiha, the Son of David, who shall wound satan, who is the head, the king and prince of the house of the wicked...” (Commentary on Habakkuk 3:13) And yet, with all this evidence pointing to a single man, the Messiah, as the seed, some Bible translations have led us toward a very different understanding of “the seed.” Torah and yad (pointer) Altered Identity Sometimes, ideas about the identity of the seed are so deeply held that, to support those ideas, even basic Hebrew words are mistranslated in Jewish Bible versions. One such translation tells us the seed is not a single person: “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they [in Hebrew, hu] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their [instead of ‘his’] heel.” (Jewish Publication Society (JPS), 1917) Even though the original Hebrew text uses the word hu, which means he, the JPS Bible version uses the word "they." So, instead of a single man doing the bruising and being bruised, we read that a multitude of people, the nation of Israel, are involved in the struggle with the serpent as well as the victory over him. Though most Jewish translations do not make this grave translation error, it illustrates how important it is to diligently search for the truth of God’s Word. This is true regarding Christian translations of the Bible as well. The Immaculate Conception, by Giovanni Battista Tiepolo (1767–1768) depicts Mary (Miriam) crushing the serpent. The early Church’s official translation of the Bible was completed in AD 400 by Jerome. We read in this Latin Vulgate translation that “he” has become a “she”: “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed and she [in Hebrew, hu] shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” (Douay-Rheims Bible, which is based on the Latin Vulgate manuscript) Here again, the Hebrew text uses the word hu, which means he, but the Latin Vulgate translates it to “she.” For centuries, this one little pronoun change led to the false teaching that Miriam (Mary) either on her own or as a co-redemptrix with her son Yeshua, crushed the serpent and claims the victory. Fortunately, more recent translations of the Catholic Bible correct this error. The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd edition) tries to correct it as well by stating: “This passage in Genesis [3:15] is called the Protoevangelium ("first gospel"): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.” (Par. 410) Three Jewish children read Hebrew Bibles or other holy books. To do away with all doubt and confusion over the identity of the seed, we can go to the apostle John who clearly tells us who the victor of the adversary is: “He that commits sin is of the devil [diabolos]; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8) “Whoever shall confess that Yeshua is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15) As we will discover through later prophecies, only Yeshua could be the seed of Genesis 3:15 and restore our relationship with our Father. The Victory Is Ours to Share “Since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.” (Hebrews 2:14–15) “When Christ [Messiah] died for our sins, Satan was disarmed and defeated. The one eternally destructive weapon that he had was stripped from his hand—namely, his accusation before God that we are guilty and should perish with him,” writes theologian and pastor John Piper (Desiring God). From the beginning of creation, the consequence of obeying the slanderer, destroyer, and adversary of God has been mandatory and expensive: it is eternal separation from the love of God and a forfeiting of our inheritance with Him in Heaven as His children. While there may also be consequences in our lifetime to obeying the adversary, the eternal consequence of trusting in Yeshua, as our Messiah and Deliverer is enjoying magnificent security, safety, and God’s chesed (merciful love) that can never be taken away from us: “Neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.” (Romans 8:38–39) Rob, please help us complete an accurate translation of God’s Word along with insightful commentary on the Messianic prophecies so Jews and Christians will understand the true origin, identity, and purpose of Messiah Yeshua and have life in its fullness. As Yeshua said, “I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness.” (John 10:9–10) Rob's comments: You asked for a Pre Roman quote from Jews about the true identity of satan, well you have one now Read the Messanic Jew article again We are told in Jewish literature that this serpent is none other than satan, the adversary angel who “rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1; as described by the Bible philosopher and grammarian Rabbi David Kimhi–AD 1160–1235, known by the acronym RaDaK, in his commentary on Genesis 3:15)
OK I admit 1160 is after Rome, maybe this Jew is Roman biased? A Jew,, Roman edit biased? Hmm? In the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) the Greek words satanas (satan) and diabolos (devil) are used interchangeably.
Illustration by Gustav Dore (1832-1883) depicting the Fall of Satan in John Milton’s "Paradise Lost" (1866).
It's is funny how the Jewish Messanics consider satanas the same as satan here. There goes Dave's theory. Once he realized that God would send a seed of Eve to defeat him, the adversary turned his attention to destroying Eve's lineage and preventing this seed from arriving.
Yet, we each must recognize the adversary’s strategy to lure us into desiring and acquiring pride, glory, power, anything more than God Himself—and understand the dire consequences of choosing to follow those desires. How do we do that? We can follow the example of Yeshua when the adversary tried to tempt Him. Throughout the Brit Chadashah, we find satan tempting, prowling, seeking whom he can destroy. His primary target was Yeshua.How amazing they write this, Satan finds Yeshua His primary target. And you have posted for years that your archons are not opposing God....why these Messanics do not agree with you Dave. Yeshua resisted every temptation even during great physical weakness. How? He confronted Satan with the Word of God while being full of the Spirit of God. In doing so, he exited the wilderness victorious and empowered.Yeshua overcome using faith in His Father's words.
Proof that Yeshua and the Father are not the same expression, otherwise you negate how faith works. “ I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [seed/ zera] and her offspring [seed/ zera]. He will pound your head, and you will bite his heel.” (Genesis 3:15) Of course, Christians believe “he” refers to a coming Messiah—Yeshua.How about that, the Hebrew writings of "he" Jesus strikes the head of this Satan.In 1300 BC, Moses wrote about the last days (acharit-hayamim, בְּאַחֲרִ֥ית הַיָּמִֽים), which indicates that he likely understood a final deliverance and deliverer would one day arrive. (Genesis 49; Numbers 24:14; Deuteronomy 4:30)
This translation, known as Targum Yonatan, tells us that on one hand we all are in a power struggle with the adversary in choosing to do good while resisting our selfish, evil desires.
Targum Yonatan writes that “they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.” (Genesis 3:15, Targum Yonatan, which is attributed to the work of Jonathan (Yonatan) ben Uzziel, c. 50 BC)
Well here is your pre- Roman comment about Satan. 1300 BC, written as a comment in 50BC, by Targum Yonatan, how about that, some Jews do understand their Hebrew afterall?
In the first and second century, a Rabbinic commentary (known as a Midrash) clearly defines the seed as Messiah:
“Rabbi Tanchuma said, in the name of Rabbi Samuel: Eve had respect to that seed (“offspring”) which is coming from another place. And who is this? This is the King Messiah.” (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 23:5)
“As You went forth for the salvation of Your people by the hands of Meshiha, the Son of David, who shall wound satan, who is the head, the king and prince of the house of the wicked...” (Commentary on Habakkuk 3:13) Amazing quotes, the Jews write of satan as our adversary, as an adversary against Jesus even, the Son of God. One such translation tells us the seed is not a single person: “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they [in Hebrew, hu] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their [instead of ‘his’] heel.” (Jewish Publication Society (JPS), 1917)One false Jewish publication twists the Hebrew word "hu" to mean "they".
The early Church’s official translation of the Bible was completed in AD 400 by Jerome. We read in this Latin Vulgate translation that “he” has become a “she”: “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed and she [in Hebrew, hu] shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” (Douay-Rheims Bible, which is based on the Latin Vulgate manuscript)And of course the Rome Edit, makes the "hu" into "she" for their Mary .To do away with all doubt and confusion over the identity of the seed, we can go to the apostle John who clearly tells us who the victor of the adversary is:
“He that commits sin is of the devil [diabolos]; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8) And the Messanic email writes correctly, the gospel of Gen 3:15 is that Jesus would pound the head of Satan.
Now you can twist and make excuses all you like, this passage reads much as a typical SDA view reads, not the Jewish stuff you claim, though this passage is written by Messanic Jews, how about that? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 1, 2022 11:01:30 GMT -5
I take it by your short reply, none which answers our detailed posts before, you are so of over discussing, or you have run out of discussions.
Am I done discussing – I wish we could start I answered your same questions over and over – and I have only 2 questions for you - and in 2 ½ years your still refuse to answer my 2 direct questions to you 1- I asked for scriptural proof that your satan god hates and opposed God After 1 ½ years – you finally admitted – you cannot But you still have Ezk 28 and a war in heaven
2- Now I ask you if Ellen White is consistent with scripture AND YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER
Yet you continue to attack Mainstream Judaism and Mainstream Christianity in favor of your satan god --------
As a miracle of the Lord I reckon today I received, this email from the Messanic Jews, and what a blast it does to your Gnostic view. Actually – it was so refreshing to read something intelligent Not once did they say anything about Ezk 28 – Isa 14 – or your idea that Hebrew satan turned against God – or that their God has to react and adjust creation because of the power of your satan god – not once do they say anything about vegetarian sharks or eathquakes being cause by your Hebrew satan
Do you know where in the Bible we find God's first promise to send the Messiah? Let’s look at this prophecy in Genesis 3:15 that Christians call the First Gospel. Of course, followers of Yeshua believe the seed refers to Him as the coming Messiah and Deliverer.
YES – I agree that Gen 3:15 is both the curse and the promise – I have said so many times However – this is NOT the very first reference to Christ as the savior of the world
Joh 8:12 Yeshua spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. The one who follows Me will no longer walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good.
But many modern Rabbis today believe that the idea of a Messiah did not begin until the late eighth century BC, about 500 years after Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. Actually this is historically interesting After Moses was 400 years worth of judges – but the people wanted a King – Saul What is more historically interesting = the change in Judaism 160 years before Jesus The introduction of concept – death in the Lord = resurrection Maccabees – and the rededication of the Temple
Robert – you suggested that in Judaism – it is male dominate – sin came into this world through Adam not Eve is your argument YET The Temptation of Eve (c. 1130s) by sculptor Gislebertus.
IF Judaism is as male centric as you claim – why is this first sin reference all about Eve? Jewish Answer – male = the Right Hand the hand of instruction and salvation Female = the Left hand – the hand of mystery – and judgment Or as you pointed out – the hand of secrets in the dark
Jewish Answer –
Male = the Right Hand the hand of instruction and salvation Female = the Left hand – the hand of mystery – and judgment Or as you pointed out – the hand of secrets in the dark
Why is the first sin story Eve centric = feminine = left hand = Jewish Gnostic – the First Archon story = feminine = Left Hand = Jewish
Jesus said Mat 6:3 'But thou, doing kindness, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth, Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
WHICH HAND is the hand of kindness, alms tzedakah (mitzvah) = Right Hand And which had is the hand you should keep in the dark – ignorance = Left Hand
Everyone in the audience of jesus understood what he was saying Robert still admits - he dose not understand this Jewish concept
The Choice Is Free – YES - FREE WIIL choice to obey God and His commandments
Eve ponders the serpent’s question. Though God told her not to eat from that one tree in the center of the garden, lest she die, she picks its fruit, examines it, and considers the serpent’s words:
Eve’s choice is free. – Absolutely Agree The consequence is expensive. – Absolutely Agree Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one (man – human being, member of the species, - Eve) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Obey God’s word and live. Disobey and die. Yes – God is that particular – it only take once sin – one disobedience – one transgression – one bite
“You surely will not die,” he says. On the contrary, “your eyes will be opened and you’ll become like elohim.” YES – the only thing that happened was knowledge – now man knows better – now man fully understands the consequences
Raiders of the Lost Ark We can ask the same about the account of Creation. Snakes have been honored and even worshipped, giving and taking life, in ancient mythologies and creation stories throughout the ancient Near East and Orient.
YES Robert – serpent gods – India, the Levant, the Americas, even Australia But you denied it all - myth
This leads skeptics to believe that Moses made up the serpent and the entire Creation story. After all, he grew up in Egypt, a land where cobras symbolized the divine authority and protection of the sun god Ra.
YES – what an interesting study – Moses was the savior of the people – the god of Egypt = RA I tried to get the guys a AHR to discuss this – but they would not touch it
But it is just as likely that these ancient polytheistic religions acquired bits and pieces of the original creation account verbally through the generations. Even after the Great Flood, Noah and his descendants would have transmitted that account throughout the world. YES – the Memoirs of Noah – and all things point to the One True Creator Robert's efforts to discredit everything except the Roman view - is an attempt to hide the truth
The Hebrew word for serpent is nachash (נָחָשׁ). If we look at the original word pictures for each of these letters, we can get some insight into the serpent’s mission and purpose.
The picture for nun (נ) is a seed or fish and means life or activity. Created creature The picture for chet (ח) is a fence or wall and means separation or private. YES cast out into earth The picture for shin (ש) is teeth and means to destroy, consume, or sharpen. Rev 12:4 … and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. In this light form of word study, we find that nachash can represent the fencing in of a life for the purpose of destroying it. Keeping man focused upon the temporary world that will pass away instead of dedicating his time to the Holy Spirit
By luring Eve into disobedience, the nachash fenced in humanity, placing us in bondage to his world, and sentencing us to separation from God forever. YES – bondage to this WORLD And our sin obscures our ability to see the LIGHT More dirt of sin and eventually we are lost in the dark (choshek) ignorance
Who Is This Serpent? We are told in Jewish literature that this serpent is none other than satan, the adversary angel who “rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1) WRONG 1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
The satan of 1 Chronicles 21:1 – the Lord Himself Or he is the ‘anger of the Lord’ Or he is an angel in service to the Lord Questions – Does God oppose Himself? Is the anger of the Lord directed at the Lord Himself? If this satan is an angel in service to the Lord – how is he opposing the Lord here?
The Hebrew word for adversary is satan. Although in English we tend to make Satan a proper name by capitalizing it, in Hebrew, it is usually used as a common noun throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament) to mean “adversary.” YES Robert you turn the word ‘adversary’ into the god of evil – Rome Fallen Angel
In the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) the Greek words satanas (satan) and diabolos (devil) are used interchangeably. ABSOLUTELY
Rev 12:9 καὶ ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος, ὁ καλούμενος Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς,
Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς are both names we call ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος, Devil and satans – are both name we call – The dragon – the mega serpent of the ancient
Diabolos means slanderer, someone who falsely accuses another to malign and destroy them. Of course, lying about God is part of satan’s strategic success as well.
Gustav Dore (1832-1883) depicting the Fall of Satan in John Milton’s "Paradise Lost" (1866). John Milton’s "Paradise Lost" is a secular novel depicting Roman hell
Once he realized that God would send a seed of Eve to defeat him, the adversary turned his attention to destroying Eve's lineage and preventing this seed from arriving. YES on both scales 1- all the world will pass away – the lineage of Eve all humanity 2- including the lineage of David – the story of the Messiah
Seventy thousand men in King David’s kingdom died. The Lord has a way of removing from our lives that which we desire more than Him. Robert’s God of tov only can cause no harm – no hurt – does no ra
In the first and second century, a Rabbinic commentary (known as a Midrash) clearly defines the seed as Messiah: According to Robert – this is not to be believed – it is Gnostic and full of errors
“Rabbi Tanchuma said, in the name of Rabbi Samuel: Eve had respect to that seed (“offspring”) which is coming from another place. And who is this? This is the King Messiah.” (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 23:5) More Gnostic error according to Robert Jews do not understand their own scripture according to Robert
A millennium later, Radak also seems to point to the seed as Messiah, writing: “As You went forth for the salvation of Your people by the hands of Meshiha, the Son of David, who shall wound satan, who is the head, the king and prince of the house of the wicked...” (Commentary on Habakkuk 3:13) Jewish commentary is just blah blah blah according to Robert – Jews do not understand their own scripture according to Robert ------------ Sometimes, ideas about the identity of the seed are so deeply held that, to support those ideas, even basic Hebrew words are mistranslated in Jewish Bible versions.
“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they [in Hebrew, hu] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their [instead of ‘his’] heel.” (Jewish Publication Society (JPS), 1917)
Even though the original Hebrew text uses the word hu, which means he, the JPS Bible version uses the word "they."
So, instead of a single man doing the bruising and being bruised, we read that a multitude of people, the nation of Israel, are involved in the struggle with the serpent as well as the victory over him.
Though most Jewish translations do not make this grave translation error, it illustrates how important it is to diligently search for the truth of God’s Word. This is true regarding Christian translations of the Bible as well.
Gen 3:15 καὶ ἔχθραν θήσω ἀνὰ μέσον σου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῆς γυναικὸς καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σπέρματός σου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σπέρματος αὐτῆς· αὐτός σου τηρήσει κεφαλήν, καὶ σὺ τηρήσεις αὐτοῦ πτέρναν.
In Greek as in Latin = pronouns are mandated by their source τῆς γυναικὸς – the woman is female gender - τοῦ σπέρματος αὐτῆς – the seed of her
[in Hebrew, hu] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their [instead of ‘his’] heel.”
הוא this is the spelling from (HOT)
ה֚וּא spellimg rom (WHC)
H1931 -הִיא הוּא - The second form is the feminine beyond the Pentateuch; a primitive word, the third person pronoun -singular, he (she or it);
ה֚וּא spellimg rom (WHC)
H1931 הוּא huw' (hoo) p/d. הִיא hiy' (he) [feminine, after the Pentateuch] 1. (the third person pronoun singular) he, she, or it (only expressed when emphatic or without a verb). 2. (intensively) self. 3. (especially, with the article) the same. 4. (sometimes, as demonstrative) this or that. 5. (occasionally, instead of copula) as or are.
KJV: he, as for her, him(-self), it, the same, she (herself), such, that (...it), these, they, this, those, which (is), who.
Even though the original Hebrew text uses the word hu, which means he, the JPS Bible version uses the word "they." - and thou shalt bruise their [instead of ‘his’] heel.”
(YLT) dost bruise him—the heel.' (TLV) you will crush his heel.” (KJV) thou shalt bruise his heel. (asv) and thou shalt bruise his heel.
αὐτός σου τηρήσει κεφαλήν - - ‘bruse’ HIS head - or bruse its head σὺ τηρήσεις αὐτοῦ πτέρναν. – ‘bruse’ HIS heel - or bruse its heel
No translation that I have ever used – says –“ and thou shalt bruise their [instead of ‘his’] heel.”
The really interesting word here is:
G5083 – τηρέω - tēreō - From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.
Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will (guard agaonst – injure – keep and eye on – watch) your head, and you will (guard against – injure – keep and eye on – watch) his heel.”
The Immaculate Conception, by Giovanni Battista Tiepolo The early Church’s official translation of the Bible was completed in AD 400 by Jerome. We read in this Latin Vulgate translation that “he” has become a “she”:
“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed and she [in Hebrew, hu] shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” (Douay-Rheims Bible, which is based on the Latin Vulgate manuscript)
Latin Vulgate – the Bible of the Waldensians – the correct Bible according to Robert
To do away with all doubt and confusion over the identity of the seed, we can go to the apostle John who clearly tells us who the victor of the adversary is:
“He that commits sin is of the devil [diabolos]; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8)
1Jn 3:8 ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐκ τοῦ διαβόλου ἐστίν, ὅτι ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς ὁ διάβολος ἁμαρτάνει. εἰς τοῦτο ἐφανερώθη ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἵνα λύσῃ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ διαβόλου.
As in -
Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς are both names we call ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος, Devil and satans – are both name we call – The dragon – the mega serpent of the ancient
The Victory Is Ours to Share When Christ [Messiah] died for our sins, Satan was disarmed and defeated. The one eternally destructive weapon that he had was stripped from his hand—namely, his accusation before God that we are guilty and should perish with him,” writes theologian and pastor John Piper (Desiring God). YES – Agree – the WORLD no longer has a hold on us
The one eternally destructive weapon that he had = death = passing away with this temporary world namely, his accusation before God that we are guilty – that we are of this world – we are worldly
Joh 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world just as I am not of the world. Joh 17:15 I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jn 2:16 For everything in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the boasting of life—is not from the Father but from the world. 1Jn 2:17 The world is passing away along with its desire, but the one who does the will of God abides forever.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. But you are not of the world, since I have chosen you out of the world; therefore the world hates you.
Mat 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
From the beginning of creation, the consequence of obeying the slanderer, destroyer, and adversary of God has been mandatory and expensive: it is eternal separation from the love of God and a forfeiting of our inheritance with Him in Heaven as His children.
“adversary of God” Is that adversary against God - adversary to God
The King of France – the King of Spain The ambassador of England – the author of your post The adversary of God = the anger of the Lord = and angel of God
While there may also be consequences in our lifetime to obeying the adversary, the eternal consequence of trusting in Yeshua, as our Messiah and Deliverer is enjoying magnificent security, safety, and God’s chesed (merciful love) that can never be taken away from us:
YES – choose WORLD and die with it Or choose God and eternal life
“Neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.” (Romans 8:38–39)
Correct – there is no stopping unrequited love Correct – there is nothing that can stand up to or against God Correct – there is no power anywhere that can change God’s creation
Rob, please help us complete an accurate translation of God’s Word YES Robert – please send me money – I just bought a new car and I need new batteries This was such a deal breaker for me and my ministry
Rob's comments: You asked for a Pre Roman quote from Jews about the true identity of satan, well you have one now YES YOU DO
Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς are both names we call ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος, Devil and satans – are both name we call – The dragon – the mega serpent of the ancient -----------------
We are told in Jewish literature that this serpent is none other than satan, the adversary angel who “rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1; as described by the Bible philosopher and grammarian Rabbi David Kimhi–AD 1160–1235, known by the acronym RaDaK, in his commentary on Genesis 3:15) OK I admit 1160 is after Rome, maybe this Jew is Roman biased? A Jew,, Roman edit biased? Hmm?
And this guy is wrong
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
The satan of 1 Chronicles 21:1 – the Lord Himself Or he is the ‘anger of the Lord’ Or he is an angel in service to the Lord Questions – Does God oppose Himself? Is the anger of the Lord directed at the Lord Himself? If this satan is an angel in service to the Lord – how is he opposing the Lord here?
In the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) the Greek words satanas (satan) and diabolos (devil) are used interchangeably.
Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς are both names we call ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος, Devil and satans – are both name we call – The dragon – the mega serpent of the ancient
This translation, known as Targum Yonatan, tells us that on one hand we all are in a power struggle with the adversary in choosing to do good while resisting our selfish, evil desires. YES – (yester tov) vrs (yester ra) the inner struggle
Now you can twist and make excuses all you like, this passage reads much as a typical SDA view reads, not the Jewish stuff you claim, though this passage is written by Messanic Jews, how about that?
Where does this post say anything about Ezk 28 Isa 14 or that your Hebrew satan turning against God in a war in heaven? - Just where did these Messianic Jews use the term Fallen Angels?
Authoritative Teaching And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world
God did it – God is absolute – God’s Plan – God’s Will – before the foundations of the World were laid!
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water. Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness.
Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth. Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne.
Where does this post say anything about Ezk 28 Isa 14 or that your Hebrew satan turning against God in a war in heaven? - Just where did these Messianic Jews use the term Fallen Angels?
You still have two questions before you 1- I asked for scriptural proof that your satan god hates and opposed God After 1 ½ years – you finally admitted – you cannot But you still have Ezk 28 and a war in heaven
2- Now I ask you if Ellen White is consistent with scripture AND YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2022 15:49:00 GMT -5
Greetings, I see a post spilled over from the tabs and I didn't see it, sorry
D""OK tell is – according to Ellen White how many sins does it take to be a sinner?" R" One sin that leads unto death, is enough. ------------------- D"Jewish answer – God made it that way – God knows what he is doing – God is absolute R" Cop out. There is not a single verse of any dumb creature, such as a lion, cow or ant being labelled as a prince? Dumb animals do not get this important label, but the chief archon is termed by GOD as "prince of this world" ? Why is that?
because the prince chief archon is smart, has free will and is the chief angel that sinned.
God is not going to create a prince and than ask GOD to remove that prince.
"He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear," (GNostic answer) What happened to solar Scriptora Dave?
RP" Why would GOD create a prince of earth, and than come to overthrow the prince of the earth? D"The Free Will choice before man is world or God Jesus came to help us into the correct choice – God - and to make that choice open to everyone R" Not answering my question Dave.
D"YES – there is a ‘sar’ over this planet earth – all part of the beast kingdom R" you agree there is a chief prince of earth. Why than does Jesus cast out this prince, and later throws the prince into a Lake of FIre?
A prince is a lessor king with free will, and obviously chooses to sin....AN idea you ignore.
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RP" R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam? 1 – God Test man – seeking the Prodigal Son – seeking the Jobs of this world
Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. R" You goof again Dave, Faith is not required for a sinless person, you obey the Lord and His laws directly , and Adam and Eve did this until they sinned.
After they sinned the sin-offering for sinning came, and this is founded on faith. You have not answered my question, why would the Father destroy a prince God established (your view)?
D"Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. R" I don't get you, you use verses that destroy your view. If GOD does not tempt anybody to sin, why than does not Gnostic writings say God intentionally created a chief prince to tempt humans to sin? Your opposing yourself. Your view makes no sense?
RP" R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam? D" 2- God does not test man himself – he has a staff for that God did not test Job directly – he sent another R" cop out, accessory to the crime, the judge would judge God as guilt of accessory to sins.
Terrible answer Dave, that you posted those years ago.
RP" R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam? D" 3- God sends us out into the wilderness – into the world – He lets us go\ R" weird, I thought Adam remained in the Eden, nobody went anywhere, until they SINNED
RP" R" OH so you admit there were some sinning angels, so are these TWO different kinds of BAD on earth? D" No just one type – but one group of them went too far – and are punished That sinning group is locked away – removed from the world Sure the rest of the archon remain R" can't you talk my talk, do I have to ask you again and again?
You admit some angels sinned? How is that possible unless angels have free will to sin? ANswer that?
The rest of the arcjon remain? SO is this 2 groups of "bad" (1) angels that sin (2) shedim created to be self (ra) by God, the chief archon shedim programmed that way, no free will?
If you chief prince is a father of lies, and can murder, than you prince has free will as well? Answer that?
Suddenly all the creatures have free will here, and choose to sin .... sin against who? God of-course?
RP" Plus a good angel termed attorney making sure God is fully aware of every sin we humans ever do? D" Mock away Robert – who cares – you only insult yourself R" think about it, how can an angel records all the human sins, when God knows all your sinning anyway? Before you even think them, an angel can't do this?
RP"FUnny I thought angels are programmed spirit beings without free will, hence have no moral laws to obey, yet you agree 200 angels sinned and are locked away? You are illogical to say the least. D" Yes these 200 Watchers took on flesh and then sinned in the flesh R" OH, so they did not sin in the spirit, only the flesh?
Brevity again Dave, you are good at it.
So you admit some angels sinned. Explain that? Now angels have free will.
D"God breaks the 10 Commandments all the time – those Laws are written for man R" Wow now I have heard everything. Silly you, foolish thinking. If God breaks laws defining sin, why does God ask humans to love him, (ie obey laws that define sin)
That would be an irrational tyrant, nothing logical and consistent. Jesus came on earth and lived without a single sin, but you now suppose God breaks his own laws and thus sins
Something not right with your view.
RP"R" wow, so even the wicked get a chance to be saved after they die D" Not all believers are perfect – some are weak believers and some are strong believers with strong convictions R" What? You have different standards of salvation even?
D"“the point of this web-site and my ministry” – do you know who you are talking to? – such respect WEDD + FD-WEDT
It is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for me R" in all respect Dave, your theories of how the earth came to be, are interesting, but not as important as salvation is.
D"NO – just denying that your verse calls him the father of sinning R" Oh so a father of lies, is not a father of sinning? I see. And a murderer is not a murderer according to humans because we have free will but the prince archon does not have free will to murder me, he murders me because this prince is programmed that way? Explain Dave.
RP" How come they were not published over and over until Rome came along in 300 AD? like the common received torah was published over and over until 300 AD?
D" Now you see this sort of pisses me off We spent a year discussing the Roman edit – what did you learn? Anything And you ask Why were they sought out and destroyed by Rome and not published over and over Unlike the official Roman version that was published many times It is this pretend ignorance of yours that makes this conversation less interesting for me R" Are you sure about this seeking and burning stuff? Da 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Prophecy speaks of a little horn power that destroys the saints and God's true words. The Essenes hid God's true words before Rome burned them. (Same idea) Da 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
This little horn understood to be Roman in origin, and later the Roman Church, came to destroy the saints and their words of God. It was punishable by death to read and print a Bible in your own language. Not taking about editing and publishing a Bible, it was a forbidden book. Da 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
You will not understand the little horn power is a church force under the chief archon designed to oppose God's true church, and thus God himself, and His salvation. ---------------------
D"I asked you a question – Does she contradict scripture? You have done everything except answer the question
Now if you find a word written anywhere by Ellen White that does not mean according to Jeff Benner Ancient Hebrew, let me know,
Is that your answer to – Does Ellen White contradict scripture? Instead of saying yes or no – or attempt to explain my confusion - you posted a bunch of blah blah about words
Why are you so afraid to answer the question? Can’t you defend your own prophet? R" COrrect, Ellen WHite never contradicts Scripture. She is a prefect Hebrew to ENglish translator, expounder.
D"I have answered all your question several times over R" you have? Where is the scholarly study that Satanas is different to Satan?
I quote the Messanic email "Throughout the Brit Chadashah, we find satan tempting, prowling, seeking whom he can destroy. His primary target was Yeshua."
No comment from Dave. The prince archon primary target was Yeshua.
And this quote
Targum Yonatan writes that “they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.” (Genesis 3:15, Targum Yonatan, which is attributed to the work of Jonathan (Yonatan) ben Uzziel, c. 50 BC)
Written 50BC, by a Rabbi that Yeshua would pound the head of the prince archon. These two beings who are princes oppose each other.
D"1- I asked for scriptural proof that your satan god hates and opposed God R" see above
50BC, Yeshua would pound the head of the chief prince on earth. The chief prince primary target was Yeshua. He had to get Him to Sin. But you say GOD breaks his own laws all the time?
D"2- Now I ask you if Ellen White is consistent with scripture R" Yes, she wrote what GOD told her to write. D"Not once did they say anything about Ezk 28 – Isa 14 R" do they have to?
D"YES – the only thing that happened was knowledge – now man knows better – now man fully understands the consequences R" is it important to fully understand the consequences? No
RP quoting messanic Jewish writing" Who Is This Serpent? We are told in Jewish literature that this serpent is none other than satan, the adversary angel who “rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1) D" WRONG R" What are you opposing the Messanic Jews here?
RP quoting messanic Jewish writing" In the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) the Greek words satanas (satan) and diabolos (devil) are used interchangeably. D" ABSOLUTELY R" did you miss something ?
The Messanic Jews write the Greek words satanas (satan) Why do they add (satan) next to Greek satanas?
Because this meaning is the same. Duh
Not your view is it Dave? Your greek satanas is different to Hebrew satan.
Sure the satanas and devil are used interchangeably. we both agree.
But you missed something.
D"Devil and satans – are both name we call – The dragon – the mega serpent of the ancient R" did you goof? Devil and satanas, both names we call dragon. You have different being for satanas and devil, the chief prince...
Your hebrew satan is just an angel capable of recording all human sinnings, even the forgiven ones.
D"According to Robert – this is not to be believed – it is Gnostic and full of errors R" I didn't say that did I?
"Well here is your pre- Roman comment about Satan. 1300 BC, written as a comment in 50BC, by Targum Yonatan, how about that, some Jews do understand their Hebrew afterall?"
SO I do not mind Jews who have a different and rare view like wee SDA do, Some do, as I show here.
RP quoting messanic Jewish writing " We are told in Jewish literature that this serpent is none other than satan, the adversary angel who “rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1; as described by the Bible philosopher and grammarian Rabbi David Kimhi–AD 1160–1235, known by the acronym RaDaK, in his commentary on Genesis 3:15)
D"And this guy is wrong R" SO you no longer support Messanic Jewish writings Dave?
D"Where does this post say anything about Ezk 28 Isa 14 or that your Hebrew satan turning against God in a war in heaven? R" It doesn't. Does it have to?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 2, 2022 8:00:05 GMT -5
Why is the world the way it is? D"Jewish answer – God made it that way – God knows what he is doing – God is absolute R" Cop out.
Robert – Your disrespect toward God is clear All Jew believe that God is absolute – if there is ra in their lives it is because God place it there as a test to overcome. It is obvious that you do not support the idea that God is absolute Your god is weak and struggling against a powerful angel that can change all god’s creation against god’s will
You are not here to study the word of God You are here to disrespect the word – God – and me
There is not a single verse of any dumb creature being labelled as a prince? but the chief archon is termed by GOD as "prince of this world" ? Why is that? First you say there is not a ‘sar’ of this world Then you say the Beast is the ‘sar’ of this world If I know what your point is I would respond
God is not going to create a prince and than ask GOD to remove that prince. Why would God create an entire world filled with people and animals – then remove it – twice You only ask question to spoil and defame You are not here to study the word of God
"He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear," (GNostic answer) What happened to solar Scriptora Dave?
YES ROBERT – Jer 1:5 is true no matter where you find it I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory
D"YES – there is a ‘sar’ over this planet earth – all part of the beast kingdom R" you agree there is a chief prince of earth. Why than does Jesus cast out this prince, and later throws the prince into a Lake of FIre?
The ‘sar’ over earth is an archon made with some matter – a thing of this world Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Why does your god make an entire world full of people and animals and destroy it twice You keep asking this question – why does God destroy His own creation? Gnostic say – it is to eliminate all the ra – to make way for the utopia of paradise where there is no ra Gnostics believe that God can create a world that is tov only – it is promised It is promised – as the reward – we are not there yet I know you do not understand the word – dispensation – but Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season and a time for every activity under heaven:
A prince is a lessor king with free will, and obviously chooses to sin....AN idea you ignore. You refuse to define sin – therefore you can make it anything you want ------------------
RP" R" OK, so why would the Father create a prince archon to intentionally test the free will of Adam? 1 – God Test man – seeking the Prodigal Son – seeking the Jobs of this world
Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. R" You goof again Dave, Faith is not required for a sinless person, you obey the Lord and His laws directly, and Adam and Eve did this until they sinned.
Sunday School for toddlers – lesson 1 Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous — no, not one. I am a Gnostic – I speak reality – your question why God made you, the world, and the archon
You have not answered my question, why would the Father destroy a prince God god established (your view)?
"He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, …”
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.”
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Num 14:21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
Sunday School for toddlers lesson 2 Why did God create – to reveal God’s Glory Why did God make earth - to reveal God’s Glory Why did God make cows - to reveal God’s Glory Why did God create the angels - to reveal God’s Glory Why did God created the archon - to reveal God’s Glory Why did God make man - to reveal God’s Glory Why did God come to earth as a man (even tho you deny it) - to reveal God’s Glory Why will there be a judgement - to reveal God’s Glory Why will there be a final judgment - to reveal God’s Glory Why will there be a new heaven and New Earth - to reveal God’s Glory
All is from God – there is only One True Creator who is absolute Why do you oppose God’s scripture? Why do you oppose God’s sovereignty?
D"Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. R" I don't get you, you use verses that destroy your view. If GOD does not tempt anybody to sin, why than does not Gnostic writings say God intentionally created a chief prince to tempt humans to sin? Your opposing yourself. Your view makes no sense?
Deu 8:2 … to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
No you are just opposing God’s scripture Why do you oppose God’s sovereignty?
RP" R" OH so you admit there were some sinning angels, so are these TWO different kinds of BAD on earth? D" No just one type – but one group of them went too far – and are punished That sinning group is locked away – removed from the world Sure the rest of the archon remain R" can't you talk my talk, do I have to ask you again and again? , so are these TWO different kinds of BAD on earth? NO - one small group of them that took on flesh are not BAD on earth – they are locked away in chain –held in chains to be released again in Rev 9 YES – all of the other archon still remain on earth
You admit some angels sinned? How is that possible unless angels have free will to sin? ANswer that? Easy – (yester ra) expressed in the flesh = lust and desire
If you chief prince is a father of lies, and can murder, than you prince has free will as well? Answer that? You refuse to define your terms – so you can make up anything you want Free Will is only the choice to choose God – choose to obey God – Choose to recognize God for who He is – choose to recognize what is clearly in your sight
The choice to by a Ford or Chevy means nothing The choice to college or nor means nothing The choice to be vegan or not means nothing The only choice that is Biblical Free Will is the choice for God – or not
RP" Plus a good angel termed attorney making sure God is fully aware of every sin we humans ever do? D" Mock away Robert – who cares – you only insult yourself R" think about it, how can an angel records all the human sins, when God knows all your sinning anyway? Before you even think them, an angel can't do this? You need to familiarize yourself with scripture – you sure do not grasp the whole
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
R" think about it, why does scripture say record books, when God knows all your sinning Why do you oppose God’s scripture? RP"FUnny I thought angels are programmed spirit beings without free will, hence have no moral laws to obey, yet you agree 200 angels sinned and are locked away? You are illogical to say the least. D" Yes these 200 Watchers took on flesh and then sinned in the flesh R" OH, so they did not sin in the spirit, only the flesh?
Brevity again Dave, you are good at it. So you admit some angels sinned. Explain that? Now angels have free will.
Robert – I have been telling you the same cosmology for 2 ½ years You are not here to study the word of God You are here to disrespect the word – God – and me
(yester ra) – is the biological need for self-preservation It is the MOTIVE – for all biology – single cell or man – grow / multiply / reproduce This is the commandment God gave to all biology – go forth be fruitful and multiply
The archon – are (yester ra) creatures – made with some matter They are not fully angelic – and they are not fully mortal But as King Solomon teaches us – he called them into appearing – they were ugly – miss formed – (Gnostic - ‘aborted fetuses’) But as King Solomon teaches us – when they appear in the form of flesh – they can be killed (just like flesh) But as King Solomon teaches us – they can shape shift – to appear differently Book of Jubilees teaches us – that when you kill them after the Flood – their spirits remain on earth as our evil spirits
The archon – are (yester ra) creatures – they lust / they desire /they want /greed – grow / multiply / reproduce YES – the Beast appeared in a plurality – offspring – bane elohiym Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Why 7 and 10 – 10 dimensional reality + 7 heaven above – science – Paul – Enoch – scripture – Kabbalah
D" Yes these 200 Watchers took on flesh and then sinned in the flesh R" OH, so they did not sin in the spirit, only the flesh? In invisible spirit form they (yester ra) – they lust / they desire /they want /greed – grow / multiply / reproduce In visible form – a small group of them – took on flesh (appeared as flesh)and they (yester ra) – they lust / they desire /they want /greed – grow / multiply / reproduce
YES – this group is 100% guilty of (yester ra) – it come with biology Their sin – violating God’s Commandment – reproduce after your own kind YES – this is the cause for the Flood Yes they are held in chain awaiting to be used again by God (Rev 9)
Why why why why – is all you ask – why does God do the thing he does? Answer = Calvin’s dispensation – scripture is divided up into different times / ages / periords Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
There was the first age – Gen 1:1-4 – Day 1 – the time of heaven only / spirit only There is the second age – Creation week There is the age of Adam
Man and serpent (beast) face to face – on the ground – resulting in Gen 6 – then Gen 8 Contest - archon-man contest / conflict / struggle (Eph 6:12)
D"God breaks the 10 Commandments all the time – those Laws are written for man R" Wow now I have heard everything. Silly you, foolish thinking. If God breaks laws defining sin, why does God ask humans to love him, (ie obey laws that define sin) That would be an irrational tyrant, nothing logical and consistent. Jesus came on earth and lived without a single sin, but you now suppose God breaks his own laws and thus sins Something not right with your view.
And that something is your word play with the word sin If God breaks laws defining sin Sin is not an endless list of dos and don’ts
Sin = disobeying God – transgressing His commandments
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Does your god have to comply with this – who are his parents? Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Who would God do this with – is God Married –who is his wife according to you Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. The ALL belongs to God – who would your god steal from? Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Who whould be God’s neighbor – just how many gods do you have in one heaven?
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill OH – does this apply to your god? Answer – No and No and No again You are not here to study the word of God You are here to disrespect the word – God – and me Why do you oppose God’s sovereignty? ---------------------- RP"R" wow, so even the wicked get a chance to be saved after they die D" Not all believers are perfect – some are weak believers and some are strong believers with strong convictions R" What? You have different standards of salvation even? The only requirement for salvation to eternal life = belief
RP"R" wow, so even the wicked get a chance to be saved after they die Even believers are sinners – no one is perfect At mortal death – 1) you die with a Divine Pardon – you die in Christ – Baptized by the Holy Spirit – Born Again And you are off to serve and praise at the throne 2) you die a believer only – no matter the strength of your conviction – we will all pay for our deeds
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rev 20:12 …: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
2 groups – First Fruits serving at the throng BEFORE the First Resurrection And those of the First Resurrection
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D"“the point of this web-site and my ministry” – do you know who you are talking to? – such respect WEDD + FD-WEDT R" in all respect Dave, your theories of how the earth came to be, are interesting, but not as important as salvation is. You asked - RP" how do you explain chaos happening to the creation, when it didn't rain, or snow until after the flood? I gave you the most intelligent answer you have ever heard You are not here to study the word of God You are here to disrespect the word – God – and me
D"NO – just denying that your verse calls him the father of sinning R" Oh so a father of lies, is not a father of sinning? I see. OK LAW BOY – where is you law against lying. Define your terms – or shut up
RP" How come they were not published over and over until Rome came along in 300 AD? like the common received torah was published over and over until 300 AD? We spent a year discussing the Roman edit – what did you learn? Anything R" Are you sure about this seeking and burning stuff? Buy a book and read – or choose to be stupid – your choice (free will) ---------------------
D"I asked you a question – Does she contradict scripture? You have done everything except answer the question
Now if you find a word written anywhere by Ellen White that does not mean according to Jeff Benner Ancient Hebrew, let me know,
Is that your answer to – Does Ellen White contradict scripture? Instead of saying yes or no – or attempt to explain my confusion - you posted a bunch of blah blah about words
Why are you so afraid to answer the question? Can’t you defend your own prophet? R" COrrect, Ellen WHite never contradicts Scripture. She is a prefect Hebrew to ENglish translator, expounder.
Then Robert – you are just not honest – if you are not honest then how can anyone believe what you say You have absolute standards for everyone else – but for you - you pretend you do not see you own religious double standard
You sir are not an honest student You are just here to oppose and spoil
D"I have answered all your question several times over R" you have? Where is the scholarly study that Satanas is different to Satan? YOUR LOOKING AT ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU But your respect it noted! Go insult someone else – Mr Honest – double standards
D"2- Now I ask you if Ellen White is consistent with scripture R" Yes, she wrote what GOD told her to write. What happened to solar Scriptora Dave Robert?
D"Not once did they say anything about Ezk 28 – Rev 12:7 R" do they have to? It is your only two verses that form your doctrine – it is the only thing you stand on It is the definition of your religion – seems like they might have mentioned it
RP quoting messanic Jewish writing" Who Is This Serpent? We are told in Jewish literature that this serpent is none other than satan, the adversary angel who “rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1) D" WRONG R" What are you opposing the Messanic Jews here?
Where is your in depth response to my comments Answer – NONE – you just blew me off as always – and jump straight to oppose
Jewish Midrash or jewish Commentary D"According to Robert – this is not to be believed – it is Gnostic and full of errors R" I didn't say that did I? What happened to solar Scriptora Dave Robert?
You just have an absolute standard that your Ellen White does not stand up to One error and she is all garbage – your rules You speak of solar Scriptora and discard it in favor of a feminine gospel
You do not mean what you say – you just say anything to be an ass You deny the sovereignty of God because your deny God is absolute It is your first insult You deny the spirit and the baptism of the spirit – your second insult You deny that Jesus Christ was God incarnate – this is just getting too insulting You deny the is Only One true God – how much more insulting can you be OH – an angel created to serve and praise – turned against God and change all God’s creation against God’s will – because your satan god is strong and can force God to change That is not insulting – it is satanic
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2022 16:39:05 GMT -5
D" Robert – Your disrespect toward God is clear All Jew believe that God is absolute – if there is ra in their lives it is because God place it there as a test to overcome. It is obvious that you do not support the idea that God is absolute Your god is weak and struggling against a powerful angel that can change all god’s creation against god’s will
You are not here to study the word of God You are here to disrespect the word – God – and meR" Dave - we have different views, and I pray and hope God does not mind If there is RA in our lives it is because we are reminded that SIN causes much missing the perfection God had originally, and reminds me of the need to be with GOD who also wants all things functional. Often I get frustrated with my old bones, my lack of wisdom building things and the trouble I have each hour working and getting ready for the end of time, but these things of RA, remind me to pray and focus more on the Lord of Faith, that I need to daily focus on HIS words of power, so I do not experience missing, or let such missing affect our relationship. Is missing a test to overcome? OK that's one way of seeing such missing. I support an absolute almighty Elohiym power in heaven, who is above all things, including missing, But GOD is allowing a SIN problem to show all it's Sinning throughout all the universes for a reason, so SIN never appears a second time. God deals with the SIN problem every day and is very interested in human salvation as well as the little bird that flies singing His praise. God is very emotional about all his creation, despite the missing of His powers because of SIN. Contrary to your opinion, I study God's work here, and indeed our discussions require me to study the Hebrew and Greek often. I am here as a witness to the truth of the sola scriptoria, to show the Hebrew is enough for salvation in Jesus. I do not, cannot understand why you seek salvation supplemented by other Gnosis writings, when Paul told Timothy not to. Many Jews also supplement their writings too, many as Scriptures says, the precepts and traditions of men. RP" There is not a single verse of any dumb creature being labelled as a prince? but the chief archon is termed by GOD as "prince of this world" ? Why is that?D" First you say there is not a ‘sar’ of this world Then you say the Beast is the ‘sar’ of this world If I know what your point is I would respondR" OH, I am sorry I was confusing to you. There are creatures GOD created. There are two categories of creatures. (1) Those with free will to respond to God, thus can choose to sin or choose to serve God. Torah says whose spirit goeth upwards. (2) Those without such ability to choose God, and thus save themselves. I term these animals as "dumb". Torah says whose spirit goeth downwards. Of the creatures with free will to choose GOD, God gives one of the creatures of that kind, a leadership role. This role is called a foundational lord, that person is a chief, a ruler, one who serves his kind, and helps his kind to praise GOD correctly and more fully. This is my two pennies understanding of the term "sar" or PRINCE. Today we have allowed the term to mean a king who does whatever he likes, dictates, rules his kingdom harshly. But in God's view, such a term was NOT like this. Now the fact the the chief shedim (devil creatures) are termed "prince of the world" implies these creatures have "Free will" and can choose to serve GOD or choose to sin against God. There is no evidence of your claim that a "prince" is just a term for the first creature created on the earth. D" Why would God create an entire world filled with people and animals – then remove it – twice You only ask question to spoil and defame You are not here to study the word of GodR" Why do you disrespect my questions like this? I asked you Why would God create a "prince" and than remove that "prince" and make His SON "prince" instead? It's a diversion you post, stick to the theme at hand. Same reason why GOD removed all the animals? Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. SIN problem, or in Hebrew a RA problem, same idea. Where was this flood of RA coming from? Sure Adam sinned and GOD cursed the world, because of Adam, but you neglect to add a "prince of the world" into Genesis. The serpent who deceived mankind to SIN, was a "prince of the world" ruling over the humans, causing them to do RA continually. But instead you develop the idea that archons are mere creatures who influence, you negate the idea that GOD calls the chief creature a "prince of the world", and what do "prince" do ? They rule. Ge 6:11 ¶ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. Obviously GOD did not make earth with this RA in the first place. Ge 6:13 ¶ And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Suggests to me the dinosaurs eating one another, and animals fearful of being eaten, was a RA that GOD could not stand any onger, so decided to destroy all the Creation, and Man with Creation. This is a SIN problem, and obviously is the fruit of RA, the obvious affects of the "prince of the world" ruling over God's creation. RP" What happened to solar Scriptora Dave?D" YES ROBERT – Jer 1:5 is true no matter where you find it I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his gloryR" And you have cheek to say I do not read God's word, " You are not here to study the word of God" is a post you wrote about yourself. D "The ‘sar’ over earth is an archon made with some matter – a thing of this worldR" OK, but what does a "sar" do Dave? Da 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. Here is a prophecy of the little horn power, a side-kick for the "prince of the world", the "prince has departments doing his dirty work", this human power assumes to higher than the "prince of heaven", removes the daily sacrifice for sin-offering, and makes the sanctuary of God meaningless. In other words this "prince of the world" establishes himself as a Most High elohiym power, asking all humans to worship this prince, that all humans are saved through this prince on earth, NOT the prince of heaven, and thus removed the salvation process of GOD, and establishes a prince salvation process on earth in church processes on earth. Now that is what this prince on earth does. Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Here is Jesus speaking of the prince of this world. Jesus casts out this prince. There the prince of the world is opposing Jesus in every way, including removing the salvation process of Jesus, and as I showed you already, the prince of the world wants to get humans to be saved by worshiping the prince of the world. THis is what a "prince" does. ------------------ D" Gnostic say – it is to eliminate all the ra – to make way for the utopia of paradise where there is no ra Gnostics believe that God can create a world that is tov only – it is promised It is promised – as the reward – we are not there yetR" Why do you talk of GNostic? Aren't you a torah observant supporter of God? So if Gnostic support God can make a world that is tov only, why is our world of both ra and tov? Obviously SIN spoiled our world and now we are controlled by the "PRINCE of SIN". Such a prince is an elohiym power that came originally from heaven, but was kicked out of heaven. Ps 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. Ps 82:6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Obviously some SONS of ELOHIYM, who were PRINCES, decided to sin long ago, and also "f all like one of the princes", now oppose GOD because they like to SIN instead of loving God. This is why the term " prince" is important, but you ignore this idea. RP" A prince is a lessor king with free will, and obviously chooses to sin....AN idea you ignore.D" You refuse to define sin – therefore you can make it anything you wantR" Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. SIN is defined as transgressing the royal torah of the Scriptures, specifically the ten directions of love, including the judgment details of how love is defined, ie Exodus 21 + . Such SIN is manifest in a ruler of SIN, termed devil/shedim, also adversary of GOD and truth. He is a father of lies, and there is no truth in him. This creature was once a SON of elohiym, a Prince, but fell from heaven because of sin, and was cast out. Read Ps 82.D" Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous — no, not oneR" Well Adam was straight until he sinned, wasn't He Dave? D" Sunday School for toddlers lesson 2 Why did God create – to reveal God’s GloryR" I go to Sabbath school for children Lesson 2. Why did God create? Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isa 45:20 ¶ Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray to a god that cannot save.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. The "glory" does not get mentioned until many verses later. (1) God formed earth to be inhabited. (2) Other "el" claim to save mankind. (3) Only the "el" from heaven can save mankinf=d (4) Only God from heaven can make man straight, and shall glory. In my answer Dave, I quote a passage of torah to answer your question. D "Why do you oppose God’s scripture? Why do you oppose God’s sovereignty?R" you don't even quote God's torah RP" You admit some angels sinned? How is that possible unless angels have free will to sin? ANswer that?D" Easy – (yester ra) expressed in the flesh = lust and desireR" DUH? so a programmed machine can take on flesh and than develop free will? and choose to sin? get chained up for sinning until judgement? How is that fair of God? Explain how a programmed machine can develop free will taking on flesh? Your answers are weird. Isn't it easier to say sons of elohiym have free will, some chose to sin and fall from heaven as sinning angels, Read Ps 82. Chained to earth, means they are free to wander earth as a prison place, free to tempt humans to sin also. Otherwise you are making God into a tyrant, how come humans sin and we are not chained up? RP" If you chief prince is a father of lies, and can murder, than you prince has free will as well? Answer that?D" You refuse to define your terms – so you can make up anything you want Free Will is only the choice to choose God – choose to obey God – Choose to recognize God for who He is – choose to recognize what is clearly in your sightR" boy you twist and squirm, read this post to define sin, from only the torah. D" You need to familiarize yourself with scripture – you sure do not grasp the whole
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.R" Wow I got Dave to quote the torah. OK Dave WHEN does this judgement happen? future, present or past? Why does it say the dead were judged, I thought you say the spirit lives? Notice they "Stand before God" not float before God as some spirit . So I agree angels write a little of the sin records, but we are assuming all sins are recorded here, not told? No mention of an attorney angel is there? D" The archon – are (yester ra) creatures – made with some matter They are not fully angelic – and they are not fully mortal But as King Solomon teaches us – he called them into appearing – they were ugly – miss formed – (Gnostic - ‘aborted fetuses’) But as King Solomon teaches us – when they appear in the form of flesh – they can be killed (just like flesh) But as King Solomon teaches us – they can shape shift – to appear differently Book of Jubilees teaches us – that when you kill them after the Flood – their spirits remain on earth as our evil spiritsR" I hear much mention of a book written by King Solomon? I read about the the Essenes ? www.missourireview.com/article/the-dead-sea-scrolls-the-book-of-jubilees/I quote " One such expansion arises in connection with Genesis 6:1-4 and the flood account which follows. Like many ancient Jewish and Christian writers, he had a specific interpretation of the cryptic words in Genesis 6:4: “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward- when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.” (8) Our author apparently understood “the sons of God” to be angels who descended from heaven and married women through whom they fathered giants. They in turn produced the extraordinary, superhuman level of evil that forced God to send the flood. Though the gigantic offspring of the angels who had descended perished in the flood waters, demons who emanated from them and their fathers continued to exercise their baleful influence in the postdiluvian period. In this way, the ongoing presence of evil in the world was explained. Two examples should suffice to illustrate the category. The first has to do with something that Genesis omits-the creation of angels. They are mentioned at several places in the biblical text and may be implied already in 1:26, where God is speaking to someone, though no rational creature had yet been created. If they were present already at creation and guarded the entrance to the Garden of Eden, when were they made? Genesis does not say, but Jubilees places their origin on the first day of the first week. Genesis 1:2: “…the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.” The word translated wind can also mean spirit, and the author of Jubilees took it in that sense. For him, it was a collective term that referred to the multiplicity of spiritual or angelic creatures whom he mentions in Jubilees 2:2. If the numerous copies of Jubilees in their library are any evidence, it certainly appealed to the strict sect of the Essenes who wrote and copied the Dead Sea Scrolls. It also caught the fancy of some Christian groups who may have had strong legal interests and who appreciated how it supplemented the information in GenesisExodus. For on the first day he created the heavens that are above, the earth, the waters, and all the spirits who serve before him: the angels of the presence; the angels of holiness; and the angels of the spirits of fire; the angels of the winds that blow, the angels of the spirits of the clouds, of darkness, ice, hoar-frost, dew, snow, hail, and frost; the angels of the sounds; the angels of the storm-winds; the angels of the spirits of cold and heat, of winter and summer, and of all the spirits of his creatures which he made in the heavens, which he made on the earth, and in every place; the depths, darkness, dawn, light, and evening which he prepared through his knowledge. He told us– all the angels of the presence and all the angels of holiness, these two kinds–to keep sabbath with him in heaven and on earth.” Sorry Dave, this book is full of errors, and I reject it according to the Moses account, there is no light in it. D" Their sin – violating God’s Commandment – reproduce after your own kindR" I thought sex cannot happen between kinds? D" YES – this is the cause for the FloodR" I thought God destoyed the earth is a flood because of man's continual RA, not some group of angels? D" Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Does your god have to comply with this – who are his parents?R" Translate it correctly and than ask? Exo 20:12 Honour thy Provider of love and thy Responder of love: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy Elohiym power, giveth thee. Now does the one true elohiym power in heaven have both a providing of love and a responder of love? Answer yes. D" who are his parents?R Elohiym power is not caused, the great uncaused cause, are three functions of love, as ONE being. D" Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Who would God do this with – is God Married –who is his wife according to youR" Hmm? THis is written specifically for man, so what is the broader directives? Do not break relationship.That is better. Does the elohiym powers in heaven have divine relationship. Yes D" Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. The ALL belongs to God – who would your god steal from?R" A broader direction is " No selfishness with love" Does Gods love always serve others? D" Who whould be God’s neighbor – just how many gods do you have in one heaven?R" As Jeff Benner points out, Love the Lord your God LIKE God loves you. Relationship. God is a relationship of love that is divine. Something you do not understand and ignore. D" Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill OH – does this apply to your god?R" No wounding. Does GOD wound anybody, rob them of love, remove their ability to be loved? No God is love and always wanting his creatures to experience his love. Only when children love hatred rather than loving from God, does God turn off His life in them, never their life to begin with. D" You are not here to study the word of God You are here to disrespect the wordR" I respect the Jesus directions of 613 rules of love, but add more as the torah indicates spiritualsprings.org/ss-1081.htmAN interesting study looking at all the directives of love in the OT and NT torah. D" Not all believers are perfect – some are weak believers and some are strong believers with strong convictions D"The only requirement for salvation to eternal life = beliefR" So some believers have less belief and some have more belief, some strong believers have strong convictions? Please explain, as I do not wish to be not saved. Belief, what is that exactly? WHy must some be proportionally punished for not believing strongly after they die? D "I gave you the most intelligent answer you have ever heardR" You did ? I quote from those weird books " the angels of the spirits of the clouds, of darkness, ice, hoar-frost, dew, snow, hail, and frost; the angels of the sounds; the angels of the storm-winds; the angels of the spirits of cold and heat, of winter and summer, and of all the spirits of his creatures which he made in the heavens" SO all this RA, snow, hail, frost, winter and summer, made in our Creation, completely negates Adam's sin and the curse of GOD when Adam sinned? Scripture says God created a world of tov only for Adam. no snow, no hail, no rain, no summer, no winter, no cold no heat.
D" OK LAW BOY – where is you law against lying.R" Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness And the applications of this royal direction from the torah Ex 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; Ex 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. Ex 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: (no flattery, no words that bribe) Ex 23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: D" Then Robert – you are just not honest – if you are not honest then how can anyone believe what you sayR" Dave I invite you to look at my study, you have refused. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1067.htmWhere are there any religions that consider the twsur and cela rock? None that I know of. I quote some of the study for you" Q7: Does Ellen White record the two symbols of heavenly rock correctly? (11) : "tswur" : "hard flint rock". (12) : "cela" : "high cliff rock" Hypothesis:How does Ellen White differ between the Hebrew "cela" and "tsuwr" ? Introduction: There are two Hebrew words for rock. Strong's 6697 "tsuwr" "hard flint rock" Strong's 5553 "cela" "high cliff rock" The Ancient Hebrew reads for "tsuwr" : "The travelling secure Head" The Ancient Hebrew reads for "cela" : "The prickly shepherd protecting sees" Notice the "flint rock" travels securely as a Head. Ps 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father "ab", my God "el" (single numerical ONE of Strong Authority" , and the rock "tsuwr" "flint rock" of my salvation. Notice the "flint rock" is a symbol of the Father, the most high of the Strong Authorities of Elohiym. The "travelling secure Head" goes with His Son, and they work as a united family of one. Notice the "high cliff rock" has the prickle letter "X" and is used "protecting" or "hurting". Strong's 7854 "satan" "adversary" Ancient Hebrew reads "The prickle one covers the nations" Notice that Satan and Jesus "the high cliff rock" are opponents to one another. Satan wants to cover the nations of people with his thorns, while Jesus the prickled one sees as a Shepherd of Authority. Or in Ancient Hebrew "The prickled Authority sees". Now let's see if any major religion even acknowledges that there are TWO rock symbols of the heavenly hosts. There are a few websites acknowledging the "heavenly Father tsuwr" (Google search) as a symbol of a massive rock. I found none acknowledging "heavenly Jesus cela" as a symbolic rock, and even less websites saying anything about the heavenly Father and the heavenly Christ as symbols of rocks, tsuwr and cela respectively. I would really doubt if any denomination would have anything much to say about two rock symbols in the Bible. Read the study please. It's an eye opener about the messages from Ellen White. They did not come from Ellen White. RP"R" you have? Where is the scholarly study that Satanas is different to Satan?D" YOUR LOOKING AT ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU But your respect it noted!R" OK I found some Pastor, person who follows your views, read his link with desire, but I reject His on the basis of his other website writings, He follows not the torah in its entirety www.asiteforthelord.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TheBiblicalSatanPt2-NT.pdf#:~:text=The%20first%20thing%20that%20comes%20to%20mind%20when,cannot%20be%20accurately%20interpreted%20apart%20from%20the%20OT. www.asiteforthelord.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/TheBiblicalSatanPt1-OT.pdfThere are plenty of wolves in sheeps clothing out there. I have read these, but offer no comments. You would love his comments. D" What happened to solar Scriptora Dave Robert?R" Isn't this all I quote to you? Most of the time too, D" It is your only two verses that form your doctrine – it is the only thing you stand onR" Well that is a start, you ignore torah truth you also ignore the Ps 82 about the elohiym prince.
D" One error and she is all garbage – your rulesR" Show me one error than, that God made a mistake is asking her to write something that is an error in the messages we have already in the torah. How many religions support twsur and cela rocks? None Dave. Not even the SDA, but Ellen White does, because she wrote only what God told her to write. That is a good study, read it please. Ellen White writes wonderful things about these rocks. And yet she never knew she was writing Hebrew at all in her English. D" OH – an angel created to serve and praise – turned against God and change all God’s creation against God’s will – because your satan god is strong and can force God to changeR" well you have angels changing shape to sex woman and develop sins, chained up for, changing God's will, even causing God to wipe them out in a great flood. so these angels are strong to force God to change? Where is your logic Dave? You write this yourself? Shalom my friend Enjoy studying the torah correctly.
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Post by Dave on Mar 3, 2022 11:58:17 GMT -5
There are creatures GOD created. There are two categories of creatures.
(1) Those with free will to respond to God, thus can choose to sin or choose to serve God. Torah says whose spirit goeth upwards.Correct man(2) Those without such ability to choose God, and thus save themselves. I term these animals as "dumb". Torah says whose spirit goeth downwards. Correct – (yester ra) only animals Also the Nephilim Archon whose spirit remain here (WORLD) as evil spirits - and do not return to heaven
Also - do not forget angels that were created to praise and serve - there spirits go nowhere - they are heavenly beings in heaven ans stay thereNow the fact the the chief shedim (devil creatures) are termed "prince of the world" implies these creatures have "Free will" and can choose to serve GOD or choose to sin against God.Implies – correct you make it say what you wantWhat about lions – they are the KING of the forest What about Blue Whales they are the King of the oceans I am sure there is something called King of the skies Are all these creatures ‘sars’ and evil gods? All of their titles " implies these creatures have "Free will" and can choose to serve GOD or choose to sin against God.Implies – correct you make it say what you want------------ There is no evidence of your claim that a "prince" is just a term for the first creature created on the earth. Who said this – you did – and now you can talk against your own misrepresentationOn the Origin of the World - NHLAnd when Pistis Sophia desired to cause the thing that had no spirit to be formed into a likeness and to rule over matter and over all her forces, there appeared for the first time a ruler, out of the waters, lion-like in appearance, androgynous, having great authority within him, and ignorant of whence he had come into being. Now when Pistis Sophia saw him moving about in the depth of the waters, she said to him, "Child, pass through to here," whose equivalent is 'yalda baoth'.
Since that day, there appeared the principle of verbal expression, which reached the gods and the angels and mankind. And what came into being as a result of verbal expression, the gods and the angels and mankind finished. Now as for the ruler Yaltabaoth, he is ignorant of the force of Pistis: he did not see her face, rather he saw in the water the likeness that spoke with him. And because of that voice, he called himself 'Yaldabaoth'. But 'Ariael' is what the perfect call him, for he was like a lion. Now when he had come to have authority over matter, Pistis Sophia withdrew up to her light.
When the ruler saw his magnitude - and it was only himself that he saw: he saw nothing else, except for water and darkness - then he supposed that it was he alone who existedOn the Origin of the World – is not my most favorite NHL text – this is the first time quoting it here – but it is an obvious paraphrase of: The Hypostasis of the Archons - NHL"Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.
This ruler, by being androgynous, made himself a vast realm, an extent without limit. And he contemplated creating offspring for himself, and created for himself seven offspring, androgynous just like their parent. And he said to his offspring, "It is I who am god of the entirety."
And Zoe (Life), the daughter of Pistis Sophia, cried out and said to him, "You are mistaken, Sakla!" – for which the alternative name is Yaltabaoth.There is no evidence of your claim that a "prince" is just a term for the first creature created on the earth.Who said this – you did – and now you can talk against your own misrepresentationRev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; Rev 12:8 and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. The Beast was created in the heavens and was immediately cast into corporeal realityGen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth. Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And she returned up to her light; - Sophia withdrew up to her light. -------------- D"Why would God create an entire world filled with people and animals – then remove it – twice You only ask question to spoil and defame You are not here to study the word of God R" Why do you disrespect my questions like this? I asked you Why would God create a "prince" and than remove that "prince" AND THE ANSWER YET AGAIN = the beast and all the archon are made with some matter – they are of the World Trees are made with matter – rocks are made with matter – cows are made with matter – and it will all pass away D"Why would God create an entire world filled with people and animals – then remove it – twiceAnswer – the WORLD is a temporary illusionand make His SON "prince" instead? It's a diversion you post, stick to the theme at hand.Too bad the SDA don’t teach:Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. --------------- Where was this flood of RA coming from? Sure Adam sinned and GOD cursed the world, because of Adam, but you neglect to add a "prince of the world" into Genesis. The serpent who deceived mankind to SIN, was a "prince of the world" ruling over the humans, causing them to do RA continually.Which one of us denies Gen 6? Which one of us denies that the archon were on the ground face to face with humanity before the Flood Which one of us denies the Nephilim?But instead you develop the idea that archons are mere creatures who influence, you negate the idea that GOD calls the chief creature a "prince of the world", and what do "prince" do ? They rule.YES THEY DO – there is one archon in charge over the other archon here Cannot say it is the Beast himself (physical creation is so much larger than just planet earth) But it is certainly one of his generals / ‘sars’ responsible for this area – planet earth Under this ‘sar’ might be other ‘sars’ responsible for specific area of their ownDan 10:13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia resisted me for 21 days, but behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me because I had been detained there with the kings of Persia. The Beast 'sar'over all corporeal creation The devil - the 'sar' over this particular world The Prince of Persia - the 'sar' of that specific ares------------- D"The ‘sar’ over earth is an archon made with some matter – a thing of this world R" OK, but what does a "sar" do Dave?
In other words this "prince of the world" establishes himself as a Most High elohiym power, asking all humans to worship this prince, that all humans are saved through this prince on earth, NOT the prince of heaven, and thus removed the salvation process of GOD, and establishes a prince salvation process on earth in church processes on earth.
Now that is what this prince on earth does. YEP - WORLD and WORLD and more WORLD establishes himself as a Most High elohiym power, asking all humans to worship this prince,YEP – just how many god kings have there been on earth(wiki) List of people who have been considered deities Total count 83 – which counts the 14 emperors of Japan as one – and the 12 Caesars of Rome as one Man – a created being claiming to be a god Archon – a created being claiming to be a god There are 33 other gods mentioned by name in the ahl/OT (google) How many gods did the Canaanites worship? In total, more than 234 deities are recorded in Ugaritic texts, D"The ‘sar’ over earth is an archon made with some matter – a thing of this world R" OK, but what does a "sar" do Dave? In other words this "prince of the world" establishes himself as a Most High elohiym power, asking all humans to worship this prince,OK – so what – man is not the God OK so what – created beings (human or archon) are not the GodWhat does any of this have to do with proving Ezk 28 or Ellen White is truthful? that all humans are saved through this prince on earthTHE ONLY THING THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS TO OFFER = WORLD The only thing the devil had to offer Jesus in the wilderness was all the WORLDMar 8:36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Mar 8:37 For what could a man give in exchange for his soul? Mat 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? all humans are saved through this prince on earth, NOT the prince of heavenIgnorance of the prince in heaven – sidetracked – preoccupied with WORLDThe Hypostasis of the Archons - NHLMoreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.------------- Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Here is Jesus speaking of the prince of this world. Jesus casts out this prince. There the prince of the world is opposing Jesus in every way, including removing the salvation process of Jesus, and as I showed you already, the prince of the world wants to get humans to be saved by worshiping the prince of the world. Robert – your statement here has absolutely nothing to do with the verse you posted I am not sure if you are playing a game - Or if you are unable to read------------------ Ps 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. Ps 82:6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Obviously some SONS of ELOHIYM, who were PRINCES, decided to sin long ago, and also "fall like one of the princes", now oppose GOD because they like to SIN instead of loving God.Let’s test your commentary against Main Stream Christian commentaryenduringword.com/bible-commentary/psalm-82/ii. You shall die like men: “Ye shall wax old like others, then ye shall fall sick like others, then ye shall die like others, then ye shall be buried like others, then ye shall be consumed like others, then ye shall be judged like others, even like the beggars which cry at your gates.” (Smith, cited in Spurgeon) iii. Fall like one of the princes: “Our Henry VIII was told on his death bed that he should go to the place of princes; which was no great comfort, if the old proverb be true, that hell is paved with the crowns of princes and helmets of soldiers.” (Trapp) Adam ClarkAnd fall like one of the princes - Justice shall pursue you, and judgment shall overtake you; and you shall be executed like public state criminals. You shall not, in the course of nature, fall into the grave; but your life shall be brought to an end by a legal sentence, or a particular judgment of God. John WesleyLike men - Or, like ordinary men. Let’s test your commentary against Mainstream Jewish commentaryThey are all focused upon the idea that we are all gods – no mention of falling like satan---------------- Do not kill, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. YHWY destroys an entire planet full of people and animals – twice Why do you consider your god to be a sinner God destroyed cities filled with people Why do you consider your god to be a sinner God set Israel against the Canaanites Why do you consider your god to be a sinner God commanded the genocide of the Sons of Anak Why do you consider your god to be a sinner 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Acording to you – your god is a sinner So you are saying that the One True God of the Jews = your satan – the devil And Christ came to overthrow the work of God the creator---------------- D"Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous — no, not one R" Well Adam was straight until he sinned, wasn't He Dave? Proving scripture CORRECT------------------- Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. R" Wow I got Dave to quote the torah. OK Dave WHEN does this judgement happen? future, present or past? DUH – this is the final judgment – Lake of Fire Again – you do not understand dispensation You yank verses out of context and bend them to fit your SDA doctrine Why does it say the dead were judged, I thought you say the spirit lives?Because these people missed out on the First Resurrection 7 verse earlier I thought you say the spirit lives? – YEP - graduation from proportional punishment Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. I thought you say the spirit lives? – YEP - here they are First Fruits – Born Again – baptized – Divine PardonRev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years. Rev 20: 12 - Why does it say the dead were judged, I thought you say the spirit lives?YES – life lives – but they never graduated from Proportional Punishment And now they die in the Lake of Fire – the Second Death – the death of spiritNotice they "Stand before God" not float before God as some spirit .Who says this – you do – it this the best academic insight you have? Make up statements – so you can argue against your self----------------- I read about the the Essenes ?www.missourireview.com/article/the-dead-sea-scrolls-the-book-of-jubilees/" One such expansion arises in connection with Genesis 6:1-4 and the flood account which follows. Like many ancient Jewish and Christian writers, he had a specific interpretation of the cryptic words in Genesis 6:4: “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward- when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.” (8) Our author apparently understood “the sons of God” to be angels who descended from heaven and married women through whom they fathered giants. They in turn produced the extraordinary, superhuman level of evil that forced God to send the flood. Though the gigantic offspring of the angels who had descended perished in the flood waters, demons who emanated from them and their fathers continued to exercise their baleful influence in the postdiluvian period. In this way, the ongoing presence of evil in the world was explained. author apparently understood “the sons of God” to be angels who descended from heaven This is the Catholic version – fallen angels coming down to earth The archon have always been here in physical creation since the beginning – Gen 1:2 and married women through whom they fathered giants. Greek – giants = demi-gods / god as father Mother Earth (Gia) as the mother Greek = Cronos + Mother Earth = the Titans They in turn produced the extraordinary, superhuman level of evil that forced God to send the flood. YES – man could not withstand the archon Face to Face Age of Adam came to an end - Contest over – archon 1 man 0 The Flood of Noah – Contest reset Though the gigantic offspring of the angels who had descended perished in the flood waters, demons who emanated from them and their fathers continued to exercise their baleful influence in the postdiluvian period. In this way, the ongoing presence of evil in the world was explained.YES – the evil spirits on earth today are disembodied Nephilim YES – the Sons of Anak are the Rephiem – a genetic link to the Nephilim YES – this genetic link = the 13 Families that rule the world todayTwo examples should suffice to illustrate the category. The first has to do with something that Genesis omits-the creation of angels. They are mentioned at several places in the biblical text and may be implied already in 1:26, where God is speaking to someone, though no rational creature had yet been created. If they were present already at creation and guarded the entrance to the Garden of Eden, when were they made? Genesis does not say, but Jubilees places their origin on the first day of the first week. YES – Correct – very JewishGen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, For on the first day he created the heavens that are above, the earth, the waters, and all the spirits who serve before him: the angels of the presence; the angels of holiness; and the angels of the spirits of fire; the angels of the winds that blow, the angels of the spirits of the clouds, of darkness, ice, hoar-frost, dew, snow, hail, and frost; the angels of the sounds; the angels of the storm-winds; the angels of the spirits of cold and heat, of winter and summer, and of all the spirits of his creatures which he made in the heavens, which he made on the earth, and in every place; the depths, darkness, dawn, light, and evening which he prepared through his knowledge. Sorry Dave, this book is full of errors, and I reject it according to the Moses account, there is no light in it.YES – you deny that God created everything – you deny scripture You have a second creator to create all the things your god cannot makeYes – you reject scripture in favor of your feminine gospel(google) The Book of Jubilees, sometimes called Lesser Genesis (Leptogenesis), is an ancient Jewish religious work of 50 chapters, considered canonical by the Coptic Christians, Ethiopian Orthodox Church as well as Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews), where it is known as the Book of Division. --------------------- D"Their sin – violating God’s Commandment – reproduce after your own kind R" I thought sex cannot happen between kinds?In nature there are several examples of FORCED hybrids – a mule is a good example However donkeys and horse never mix it up on their own – always man’s forced intervention Chimeras are another example of forced hybrids – Hebrew satyrs – goat menAll resulting from the intervention of the Gen 6 bane elohiym / Nephilim But you deny thisD" YES – this is the cause for the Flood R" I thought God destoyed the earth is a flood because of man's continual RA, not some group of angels?YES - about man not angels YES - scripture is all about man - written for man about man------------------ D"Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Does your god have to comply with this – who are his parents? R Elohiym power is not caused, the great uncaused cause,Correct this commandment is not for God – it is for manD"Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. R" Hmm? THis is written specifically for manCorrect this commandment is not for God – it is for manD"Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. The ALL belongs to God – who would your god steal from? R" A broader direction is " No selfishness with love" Correct this commandment is not for God – it is for manD"Who whould be God’s neighbor – just how many gods do you have in one heaven? R" As Jeff Benner points out, Love the Lord your God LIKE God loves you. God is a relationship of love that is divine. Something you do not understand and ignore. Who is God’s neighbor – who is God’s equal – who else is a God in heaven?Answer – NONECorrect this commandment is not for God – it is for man Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. What other god is there for God to worship?this commandment is not for God – it is for manExo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, You deny that Day 7 is ongoingYou have your god creating man during his day of restEach and every man that is born is a new creation according to you And instead of resting your god is busy reacting and adjust His Plan and Will because of your satan godExo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Who is God’s neighbor – you did not answerthis commandment is not for God – it is for manExo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Who is God’s neighbor – you did not answerthis commandment is not for God – it is for manD"Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not killOH – does this apply to your god?R" No wounding. Does GOD wound anybody, rob them of love, remove their ability to be loved? NoWhat a bunch of religious nonsense – God throws His righteous judgment around all through scripture Your denial – means nothing------------------ D" Not all believers are perfect – some are weak believers and some are strong believers with strong convictions D"The only requirement for salvation to eternal life = belief R" So some believers have less belief and some have more belief, some strong believers have strong convictions? Please explain, as I do not wish to be not saved.I believe you – you mock God and His word with such easy – no respectBelief, what is that exactly? WHy must some be proportionally punished for not believing strongly after they die?Belief is a mental acceptance of the evidence - belief is your minds attempt to understand the informationYES - belief is all that is required for you to survive the Lake of Fire and share eternal life with GodBut Beliefs can change with additional informationJust how many believers - give it up later in life They could give it up - because it was not FACT for them - only belief However - belief in something is not the same as having first hand personal knowledge of the fact No amount of additional information can ever change a fact for you Facts are facts and they stand all criticism Paul was taken into heaven and had a face to face with Christ Paul did not believe it - he knew (gnosis) it to be fact God spoke directly to Moses Moses did not believe it - he (gnosis) it to be fact Elisha servant - was worried - troubled - belief Elisha was confident - because he knew (gnosis) ---------------- You asked about rain and snow formation after the FloodD"I gave you the most intelligent answer you have ever heardR" You did ? I quote from those weird books "the angels of the spirits of the clouds, of darkness, ice, hoar-frost, dew, snow, hail, and frost; the angels of the sounds; the angels of the storm-winds; the angels of the spirits of cold and heat, of winter and summer, and of all the spirits of his creatures which he made in the heavens" This has nothing to do with my answer of WEDD and FD-WEDTavoid - deflect - change to subjest - and post missinformation Such and honsest student - such an academic -------------------- D"OK LAW BOY – where is you law against lying. R" Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness YES – this refers to a court of law Exo 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment: YES – this refers to a court of law D"Then Robert – you are just not honest – if you are not honest then how can anyone believe what you say R" Dave I invite you to look at my study, you have refused. I posted your study of “Faith” here and went through it line by line What have you posted that I refuse to address?Where are there any religions that consider the twsur and cela rock? None that I know of. I quote some of the study for you" Q7: Does Ellen White record the two symbols of heavenly rock correctly? Who cares about your word games that lead you all over the placeHypothesis:How does Ellen White differ between the Hebrew "cela" and "tsuwr" ?Alternate hypothesis – Ellen White contradicts scripture therefore all of her writing are garbage Robert rules of acceptability – or Roberts religious double standard – or Robert refusing to face the truth------------------------------- D"One error and she is all garbage – your rules R" Show me one error than, that God made a mistake is asking her to write something that is an error in the messages we have already in the torah.THIS THREAD IS HERE TO EXAMINE THAT VERY QUESTION!You have avoid address Dillon’s comments about question 1-4I gave Ellen White a pass for being Gnostic on question #5 We are stuck on questions 6-8 – but then you changed the subject by attacking me and opposing everything I post – like an opposer does ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU!Instead of avoiding – deflecting – and changing the subject55 - 8 = 47 more example of Ellen White error remaining to discussHow many post have you made on this thread? Have you addressed any of the questions put to you? ----------------- RP"R" you have? Where is the scholarly study that Satanas is different to Satan? D" YOUR LOOKING AT ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU But your respect it noted! R" OK I found some Pastor, person who follows your views, read his link with desire, but I reject His on the basis of his other website writings, He follows not the torah in its entiretyNeither does Ellen White – but you refuse to admit itSo you should reject Ellen White in its entirety – Robert’s rules of acceptability MY views are 100% Jewish in the ahl/NT And My views are 100 agl/NT Only Rome has rewritten the ahl/OT theology to support their god of evil -------------------- There are plenty of wolves in sheeps clothing out there. I have read these, but offer no comments. You would love his comments. Is this your opinion of me – your respect is noted – Christian I have read these, but offer no comments. You would love his comments. WOW - you make deragatory comments about every one and everything Whay are you afraid to touch this one? - it must be good - maybe I will look at it
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2022 16:24:51 GMT -5
D" Also the Nephilim Archon whose spirit remain here (WORLD) as evil spirits - and do not return to heaven
Also - do not forget angels that were created to praise and serve - there spirits go nowhere - they are heavenly beings in heaven ans stay thereR" You are inventing categories and definitions of animals, who is playing word games now? What is a spirit creature? No such thing. Where is your Scripture? I hear many SDA even say elohiym is a spirit? Where is the Scripture? Only this one misquoted "God (is) spirit.... it actually says "elohiym ruwach"..... (is) supplied by translators. The word ruwach means medium anyway, not spirit, like a wind is a medium system, for air (media) carrying energy in the medium. Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? This verse describes only two categories ... not four as you are suggesting. SO where is your torah on your idea? From my Hebrew Translator Counsels for the Church, p. 74.2 (Ellen Gould White) The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit; yet He is a personal being, for man was made in His image. Saying elohiym functions as a medium (spirit) also true to say He (Father) is a personal being, for man was made in the Father's image. Correctly stated. This is the only sentence she writes among 100+ sentences, repeated over and over, and she quotes verses from KJV without commenting on the verse. So I am confident you will not find a torah text that saying anything about "spirit creatures", the only way the word "ruwach" is used to to denote the HS or RA mediums administrated by the HS, so their own evil can flow and be observed by others (nothing exists unless GOD allows it to exist, for only GOD is supreme in all things, including the observance of RA). RP" Now the fact the the chief shedim (devil creatures) are termed "prince of the world" implies these creatures have "Free will" and can choose to serve GOD or choose to sin against GodDave does not like the word "implies", is not the Bible founded upon logic, and thus one can use intelligence and reasoning, or must everything be spelled out for us? D" Implies – correct you make it say what you want What about lions – they are the KING of the forest What about Blue Whales they are the King of the oceans I am sure there is something called King of the skies Are all these creatures ‘sars’ and evil gods?R" I did a study of "sar" even showed you the results, NOT a single verse uses "Sar" on a cow, a lion. or a whale, or a eagle in the sky, the only creature labeled with "sar" is the chief shedim serpent that choose to sin, (made a false report to Eve) so she could also sin with this "sar" on earth. Stop making excuses, if the the word "Sar" applies to ordinary dumb animals, show me the texts? You can't, I already checked this myself, but you say I did not come here to study the Hebrew torah. You need to study the Hebrew torah, not a single text anywhere says "sar" except the chief sar shedim devil. RP" There is no evidence of your claim that a "prince" is just a term for the first creature created on the earth.D" Who said this – you did – and now you can talk against your own misrepresentationR" I recall you said this, but I cannot find where, tried looking, maybe on another thread? D" And when Pistis Sophia desired to cause the thing that had no spirit to be formed into a likeness and to rule over matter and over all her forces," R" A suggestion of a creature to rule "sar"? D" Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing.R" Hmm? D" Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. R" You truly support these words here? Gnostic writings are saying the HS created this creature whose first thoughts were a sin, thus GOD created a creature who sins from birth? I thought sinning is something where we choose to disobey God. Gnostic makes sinning into a programmed function of creation. (not something you choose, unless you have free will)
Rp" There is no evidence of your claim that a "prince" is just a term for the first creature created on the earth.D" Who said this – you did – and now you can talk against your own misrepresentationR" you repeat this twice? D"But it is certainly one of his generals / ‘sars’ responsible for this area – planet earth Under this ‘sar’ might be other ‘sars’ responsible for specific area of their ownR" You play word games with "sar" meaning it can mean a commander of some group? D" Dan 10:13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia resisted me for 21 days, but behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me because I had been detained there with the kings of PersiaR" you introduce this verse to back up you idea that "sar" means a "commander of a group" Hmm? My Hebrew English translator says " While Satan was striving to influence the highest powers in the kingdom of Medo-Persia to show disfavor to God's people, angels worked in behalf of the exiles. The controversy was one in which all heaven was interested. Through the prophet Daniel we are given a glimpse of this mighty struggle between the forces of good and the forces of evil. For three weeks Gabriel wrestled with the powers of darkness, seeking to counteract the influences at work on the mind of Cyrus; and before the contest closed, Christ Himself came to Gabriel's aid. “The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days,” Gabriel declares; “but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.” Daniel 10:13. All that heaven could do in behalf of the people of God was done. The victory was finally gained; the forces of the enemy were held in check all the days of Cyrus, and all the days of his son Cambyses, who reigned about seven and a half years." OK I will buy into your discussion here, the " first prince" is termed on Michael, so " other princes" also abound. You ignore the controversy struggle, war in heaven is now a war on earth, so you are limited to using "sar" as commanders of certain groups, under archon control. D" The Beast 'sar'over all corporeal creation The devil - the 'sar' over this particular world The Prince of Persia - the 'sar' of that specific aresR" OK, so you defend your view. D" Archon – a created being claiming to be a godR" And you do not consider this prince archon claiming to be a god, opposing the GOD in heaven? I do not follow your logic here? RP" R" OK, but what does a "sar" do Dave? In other words this "prince of the world" establishes himself as a Most High elohiym power, asking all humans to worship this prince,D" OK – so what – man is not the God OK so what – created beings (human or archon) are not the God What does any of this have to do with proving Ezk 28 or Ellen White is truthful?R" Is that your answer, " so what?" SO who cares if the archons lead humans to worship the archons as a god? Got nothing to do with archons sinning, losing their perfection, as Ezekiel 28 says? After all I have the inspired Gnostic writings that says the archon was created sinning from its programmed creation, by the HS even, without the Father really knowing, His left Hand, as you claim. D "THE ONLY THING THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS TO OFFER = WORLD The only thing the devil had to offer Jesus in the wilderness was all the WORLDR" God gave the sinning angels only this world to practice their sinning. That is all these angels can offer. As I was searching I found you said something" -------D previously---------- These other elohiym powers humans are commanded not to worship, Agree – these other gods are created beings – made with some matter – archon –all of them They were never good-guy angels – they were created by Him for Him (Col 1:16---------end of Dave------------ It seems you are saying the archons are "Angel creatures" created by GOD to be sinning as programmed machines in this world. " They (archons) were never good-guy angels". SO God can programme angels to praise, and God programmed some angels to be bad. The angels have no free will and they do what they are programmed to do? I feel sorry for you being deceived by Gnostic rubbish like this. Ezekiel 28 defines the angels so much easier than Gnostic writings do. And Satan made sure the Jews never made a big deal out of the prophet Ezekiel's words from God. "D" Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spiritR" Again you quote a different Bible to me, you love your supplementary writings. So by mixing truth and a little non-truth, it deceives you into thinking it's all truth. D" Let’s test your commentary against Mainstream Jewish commentary They are all focused upon the idea that we are all gods – no mention of falling like satanR" Fair enough, How much of the Mainstream Jewish commentary comments upon the tsuwr and cela rocks in Scripture? How much of the Mainstream Jewish commentary comments upon the proper meaning of amanuah? Sometimes the majority get truth seeking wrong? Narrow is the path of truth and few find it, torah says. D "YHWY destroys an entire planet full of people and animals – twice Why do you consider your god to be a sinner?R" Creation is property of GOD, surely GOD can remove HIS property ? It says "no stealing", well some mischief maker steals GOD's creation, with GMO, and other RA influences? D" God destroyed cities filled with people Why do you consider your god to be a sinnerR" The command is no wounding, NOT no killing. One can kill and animal to eat it for food, or kill and animal as a sacrifice, This is not a sin. One cannot wound a human, so as to remove the possibility of that person seeking God as a Saviour. The unpardonable condition suggests to me some people give up choosing to choose, hence God can remove the gift of living he gave to such sinning humans. It is His right to remove His gift. D" God set Israel against the Canaanites Why do you consider your god to be a sinnerIsrael say "All he says we will do" is not a statement of faith, but a statement of Baal strength, they saw themselves as Master of their own living (baal). SO God allowed them to do as they wished to do, not His will to allow humans to remove other humans.... I gave them ordinances they could not keep.... Ezekiel says. D" God commanded the genocide of the Sons of Anak Why do you consider your god to be a sinnerR" Isn't this a group God gave 400 years to repent? D" 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. According to you – your god is a sinnerR" Your discussion is brevity again. Are you saying God is destroying his own creation (ie RA archons) hence God is a sinner? The cherubims that sinned choose to sin, hence God opposes them and their influence. This does not make God a sinner. So you have God's love, and you see a bully kicking a person to death, and you would walk on by doing nothing? God is not like this. He will act and protect the helpless. Though some cases this simple story is blurred. D" And Christ came to overthrow the work of God the creatorR" If you follow GNostic view, yes. But if you follow the torah view, Ezek 28 about angels choosing to sin, no. I stick with Scripture, and the torah view, including Ezek 28. "DP" Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous — no, not one RP" Well Adam was straight until he sinned, wasn't He Dave?D" Proving scripture CORRECTR" you made a goof and didn't apologize, but you agree with me RP" R" Wow I got Dave to quote the torah. OK Dave WHEN does this judgement happen? future, present or past?D" DUH – this is the final judgment – Lake of FireR" SO how did Job get judged by an attorney than way back before the Great Flood, or just after, Hmm? long time ago? Are there more than one judgement time for humans in history? " You yank verses out of context and bend them to fit your view" yep Dave, you do. D" This is the Catholic version – fallen angels coming down to earth The archon have always been here in physical creation since the beginning – Gen 1:2
-------D previously---------- These other elohiym powers humans are commanded not to worship, Agree – these other gods are created beings – made with some matter – archon –all of them They were never good-guy angels – they were created by Him for Him (Col 1:16---------end of Dave------------ It seems you are saying the archons are "Angel creatures" created by GOD to be sinning as programmed machines in this world. " They (archons) were never good-guy angels". Seems to be you are not consistent in your own views Dave? Please explain D" YES – the evil spirits on earth today are disembodied NephilimR" so this is proof the "spirit lives" after mortal death? ANd the prince chief archon spoke the truth than? Yes shall not surely die? Only the body of matter dies, the spirit lives. I think you are deceived my friend. You are hood winked by the words of the father of lies. He was a murderer from the beginning Jesus said about him. Enough to be kicked out of heaven. D" but Jubilees places their origin on the first day of the first week. YES – Correct – very JewishR" Hmm? Not my view, sorry. Angels existed prior to earth Creation. D" YES – you deny that God created everything R" NO, only that "i ce, hoar-frost, dew, snow, hail, and frost; the angels of the sounds; the angels of the storm-winds; the angels of the spirits of cold and heat, of winter and summer," was created for earth's Creation. These came about because of SIN, not because of Creation. D"In nature there are several examples of FORCED hybrids – a mule is a good example However donkeys and horse never mix it up on their own – always man’s forced interventionR" theknowledgeburrow.com/why-are-horses-and-donkeys-not-considered-the-same-species/#How_many_chromosomes_does_a_horse_and_a_donkey_haveHmm? Maybe they were the same once, but spoiling has occurred since? Don't know. D" Chimeras are another example of forced hybrids – Hebrew satyrs – goat menR" ANy more details on this please? D" Who is God’s neighbor – who is God’s equal – who else is a God in heaven? Answer – NONER" We are to love God and others as God love us. Its a comparison. Not about neigbour. Jeff explains this. A neigbour is a comparison between relationships. God loves you. Relationship. You love your neigbour. Relationship. D" What other god is there for God to worship? this commandment is not for God – it is for manR" This love directive is saying I am your Saviour, have not other Saviour but me. D" You have your god creating man during his day of restR" What? God created man on day 6, and rested on day 7. D" What a bunch of religious nonsense R" Oh sorry, I won't discuss my views of the torah with you than? D" But Beliefs can change with additional information Just how many believers - give it up later in life They could give it up - because it was not FACT for them - only belief
However - belief in something is not the same as having first hand personal knowledge of the fact No amount of additional information can ever change a fact for you Facts are facts and they stand all criticism
Paul was taken into heaven and had a face to face with Christ Paul did not believe it - he knew (gnosis) it to be fact
God spoke directly to Moses Moses did not believe it - he (gnosis) it to be factR" what you say makes no sense, Israel saw 10 plagues Israel saw red sea crossing Israel saw water as sweet Israel saw manna fall every day Yet some sinned again and again. Why? Belief is nothing about salvation. Salvation is founded on faith, not belief, or seeing miracles of God's glory as facts. D" This has nothing to do with my answer of WEDD and FD-WEDTR" OK RP" R" Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witnessD" YES – this refers to a court of lawR" It does not only, it refers to all kinds of false witness. Pr 11:12 ¶ He that is void of wisdom despiseth his neighbour: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace. 13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: Pr 16:28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends. Psalm 141:3 “Set a guard over my mouth, Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips.” Proverbs 10:18 “Whoever conceals hatred with lying lips and spreads slander is a fool.” etc, etc. All stem from do not make false witness with your words.
(not about court only, Hebrew is broad, not Greek thinking narrow) D" YES – this refers to a court of lawR" I see, so these other verses are out of context: Pr 11:12 , Pr 16:28 , Psalm 141:3 ?/? Stop being so nit picking, legalistic and narrow minded in your thinking. D" What have you posted that I refuse to address?R" You never looked at the umbra shadow link I posted? is one example. D" Who cares about your word games that lead you all over the placeR" OH, so you would you determine, test using science, that prophets were inspired or not? Take Alice Bailey a prophet in also 1844, used in the United Nations today, how would we test her words of so called inspiration? D" Alternate hypothesis – Ellen White contradicts scripture therefore all of her writing are garbageR" OK show me ONE, just ONE study Dave, choose your best argument to discredit her messages she received from GOD, and make sure I can test her messages as must as you can. Science cannot test the past, only the present, what we see and evaluate now, observe, etc. D"You have avoid address Dillon’s comments about question 1-4 I gave Ellen White a pass for being Gnostic on question #5
We are stuck on questions 6-8 – but then you changed the subject by attacking me and opposing everything I post – like an opposer does
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU!R" I am sorry, must have avoided this somehow, instead of overwhelming me, show/choose your best theme, only ONE please, not several, it only takes ONE to bring her messages down, So clearly present your case for one error. My response will take hours to answer, assuming we can test the error you present. Must allow for testing using science in the present, not future, not past. D" ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU! Instead of avoiding – deflecting – and changing the subjectR" OK I will, as long as you put ONE question before me? Not several. One error is all your need. And the error you choose must be testable using all the rules of science. OK ? Not comments about limestone making volcanoes...not testable by me or by you, we have to have faith in science and science is not making any progress into the cause of volcanoes, only theories.... do you get my drift? Make sure your error is truly testable by science and science methods. That way we get facts, not theories? OK? Hence I gave you mine, science test of her words, but you refused to read it. D " MY views are 100% Jewish in the ahl/NT And My views are 100 agl/NTR" I would challenge that...... but you have your opinions and I read them here D" Is this your opinion of me – your respect is noted R" NO, you're are a friend, only confused with Gnosticism, the omega errors for the end of time. A wolf seeks to devour us, and we have had plenty in the SDA church over the years, In the 1980, Dr Desmond Ford to name one, a pious gentle fellow, but made many false teachings over the years. He has since died, but his influence lives on in many Pastors. Wolves do not infiltrate churches that are in error, but more so those assemblies that have truth, they seek to destroy. Another wolf in Mrs White time was Dr Kellogg, a pious gentlemen introducing the alpha ideas of Gnosticsim (I feel) the pantheistic ideas of God as a force in nature. With so much confusion out there, it is vital we stick to the Moses torah first for our primary guidance. D" Why are you afraid to touch this one? - it must be good - maybe I will look at itR" I read his website, saw his face, it takes one error to bring them down remember? He does not see Sawtawn as a supreme opposer of God, you would agree with this two pdf papers. Shalom PS R Still waiting for a scholarly study who agrees with you. Your whole theory is based on this one point, that you cannot justify? D BULL SHIT – I went to the trouble to post the Doctoral thesis of two different Greek student working on their PhDs – One from Harvard – one from U of Kanas at haysR I will study your links if you provide them here. Must have overlooked it.
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Post by Dave on Mar 3, 2022 19:06:20 GMT -5
D"Also the Nephilim Archon whose spirit remain here (WORLD) as evil spirits - and do not return to heaven Also - do not forget angels that were created to praise and serve - there spirits go nowhere - they are heavenly beings in heaven and stay there R" You are inventing categories and definitions of animals, who is playing word games now?NOPE – not animal - created ethereal beings What is a spirit creature? No such thing. Where is your Scripture?www.mat.univie.ac.at/~neum/sciandf/eng/spirit.htmlWhat is a spirit? - (Belarusian translation) A spirit is a force that influences the will of people. A spirit can be an anonymous force responsible for the atmosphere in a meeting of people, or for the mood within a person, it can also be as personal as the spirit of other people who shape our daily actions. It is called a spirit because it relates not to matter but to mind, soul, and feelings. Spirits can be loving, harmless or dangerous, fleeting or powerful, discreet or haunting, helping or hurting. They can inhabitate places, memories, books, or people. The most important fact about spirits is that they have to obey the commands of Christ. If we feel under the power of a spirit we do not want, we can command the spirit to leave in the name of Christ since we are His people, and the devil's forces have no power over Christians unless they cooperate. It may be simply a matter of a single command spoken in trust of God, or it may be a spiritual battle (Eph. 6:10-17) where we need to draw closer to God in faith and let go of attachments to passing values (1 Tim. 6:6-12). It is dangerous to play with the powers of the spirits since, in this way, we give the devil an easy way to irritate us, mislead us, and finally lead us astray. Instead, we should ask God for discernment that we learn to recognize the spirit that is of God, that helps us to grow and become strong in love and faith (2 Tim 1:8). Deadly spirits make it easygoing initially, and take their toll later when resistance has become weak. It is like drugs that promise heaven for free but ruin the life of those who trusted and became dependent. The devil's spirits dress like a spirit of light, but in the long run cause death (Rom. 6:16-23). God's spirit may be demanding initially, but prepares you for a life of quality and freedom, and develops your personality and your abilities so that life becomes easier and more fruitful as you cooperate with Him. God's spirit is like a loving teacher who shows you what is true and what is worth doing (John 14:26), and the results are such that you'll not regret your efforts (Gal. 5:16-26). I do not disagree with any of thisDefinition of ethereal 1a: of or relating to the regions beyond the earth b: CELESTIAL, HEAVENLY c: UNWORLDLY, SPIRITUAL 2a: lacking material substance : IMMATERIAL, INTANGIBLE b: marked by unusual delicacy or refinement c: suggesting the heavens or heaven 3: relating to, containing, or resembling a chemical ether ethereal Something ethereal is airy and insubstantial, like a ghostly figure at the top of the stairs. Ethereal comes from the Greek word for ether, which means “air” or more specifically “the upper regions of space.” An ethereal substance or sound is one that carries the feeling of light and air — something you might see in a vision that strikes you as heavenly or supernatural. --------------- I hear many SDA even say elohiym is a spirit? Where is the Scripture? Only this one misquoted "God (is) spirit.... it actually says "elohiym ruwach"..... (is) supplied by translators.
The word ruwach means medium anyway, not spirit, like a wind is a medium system, for air (media) carrying energy in the medium. Joh 4:24 πνεῦμα ὁ Θεός, This = normative + normative I am – or I am me – or I = me John 4:24 says – God is Spirit – Spirit is God – God = Spirit – Spirit = God Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? This verse describes only two categories ... not four as you are suggesting. SO where is your torah on your idea? From my Hebrew Translator Counsels for the Church, p. 74.2 (Ellen Gould White)Until you are willing to defend her – I reject her in her entirety by the Robert rule of literature One error and it is all trashD"And when Pistis Sophia desired to cause the thing that had no spirit to be formed into a likeness and to rule over matter and over all her forces," R" A suggestion of a creature to rule "sar"?YEP – entropy has ruled physical creation since the very first moment D"Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. R" You truly support these words here? Gnostic writings are saying the HS created this creature whose first thoughts were a sin, thus GOD created a creature who sins from birth? I thought sinning is something where we choose to disobey God. Gnostic makes sinning into a programmed function of creation. (not something you choose, unless you have free will) The depth of your study is showing loud and clearYou are trying to hold the NHL to impossible standards – we no other copies of many of it to compare for textural error – therefore it is unknown The method to study scripture is precept upon precept, line upon line Nothing stands alone – everything is validated by the truth of scripture The First Archon’s only though was of SELF – I am alone – I am first = (yester ra) -------------- RP" R" OK, but what does a "sar" do Dave? In other words this "prince of the world" establishes himself as a Most High elohiym power, asking all humans to worship this prince, D" OK – so what – man is not the God OK so what – created beings (human or archon) are not the God What does any of this have to do with proving Ezk 28 or Ellen White is truthful? R" Is that your answer, "so what?" SO who cares if the archons lead humans to worship the archons as a god? Who said this – you did so you can argue against yourselfYou claim that your Ezk 28 Hebrew satan wants to be = with God in heaven ABSOLUTE RUBBISHHow can any created being be equal with hid creator?God above – High – Absolute – Supreme Authority = GOD – a singularityCreated creatures can only be gods – false gods – other gods – gods of this world – gods of the levant – gods of the 99%There is no such thing as a war between a created creature and God It would be – and always is NO CONTEST--------------- D"THE ONLY THING THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS TO OFFER = WORLD The only thing the devil had to offer Jesus in the wilderness was all the WORLD As I was searching I found you said something" -------D previously---------- These other elohiym powers humans are commanded not to worship, Agree – these other gods are created beings – made with some matter – archon –all of them They were never good-guy angels – they were created by Him for Him (Col 1:16) ---------end of Dave------------ AND I STAND BY MY OWN STATEMENTIt seems you are saying the archons are "Angel creatures" created by GOD "They (archons) were never good-guy angels". Make up your mindI say angels – the good guys – were created to be angels I say the Beast – is an inherent by-product of physical creation – never an angel – created differently – with some matter --------------- "D" Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit R" Again you quote a different Bible to me, you love your supplementary writings. So by mixing truth and a little non-truth, it deceives you into thinking it's all truth.Gen 3:17 Then to the man He said, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate of the tree which I commanded you, saying, ‘You must not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground because of you—with pain will you eat of it all the days of your life. Gen 3:18 Thorns and thistles will sprout for you. You will eat the plants of the field, Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow will you eat food, until you return to the ground, since from it were you taken. For you are dust, and to dust will you return.” Is scripture deceiving you Robert – admit it?D"YHWY destroys an entire planet full of people and animals – twice Why do you consider your god to be a sinner? R" Creation is property of GOD, surely GOD can remove HIS property ?WOW that’s a lot of RAD"YHWY destroys an entire planet full of people and animals – twice Why do you consider your god to be a sinner?D"God destroyed cities filled with people Why do you consider your god to be a sinner R" The command is no wounding, NOT no killing.(HOT+)H7523 – רָצַח - A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er). G5407 – φονεύω - From G5406; to be a murderer (of): - kill, do murder, slay. (WHM)H7523 רָצחַ ratsach (raw-tsach') v. 1. (properly) to dash in pieces, i.e. to slay or cause the death of (a human being). 2. (especially) to murder. 3. (by justice) to execute. KJV: put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er). R" The command is no wounding, NOT no killing.Sorry Robert – your made up rebuttal is errorI stick with Scripture, and the torah view, including Ezek 28.You mean to admit – you will stick to Ellen White and Ezk 28 because it is all you have------- D"but Jubilees places their origin on the first day of the first week. YES – Correct – very Jewish R" Hmm? Not my view, sorry. Angels existed prior to earth Creation.YES – that is what was said – the Host of heaven are created on Day 1 – prior to physical creation The Age of Spirit D"YES – you deny that God created everythingR" NO, only that "ice, hoar-frost, dew, snow, hail, and frost; the angels of the sounds; the angels of the storm-winds; the angels of the spirits of cold and heat, of winter and summer," was created for earth's Creation. These came about because of SIN, not because of Creation.D"YES – you deny that God created everything------------- D"But Beliefs can change with additional information Just how many believers - give it up later in life They could give it up - because it was not FACT for them - only belief However - belief in something is not the same as having first hand personal knowledge of the fact No amount of additional information can ever change a fact for you Facts are facts and they stand all criticism Paul was taken into heaven and had a face to face with Christ Paul did not believe it - he knew (gnosis) it to be fact God spoke directly to Moses Moses did not believe it - he (gnosis) it to be fact R" what you say makes no sense,If you cannot tell the difference between fact and belief – you need mental help Because you are delusional------------------ D"What have you posted that I refuse to address? R" You never looked at the umbra shadow link I posted? is one exampleI HATE YOUR IDEA THAT ANYTHING CAN BLOCK GOD OR HIDE FROM GOD!. I HAVE IT CLEAR TO YOU MANY TIMESD"Alternate hypothesis – Ellen White contradicts scripture therefore all of her writing are garbage R" OK show me ONE, just ONE study Dave, choose your best argument to discredit her messages she received from GOD, and make sure I can test her messages as must as you can. Science cannot test the past, only the present, what we see and evaluate now, observe, etc.D"You have avoid address Dillon’s comments about question 1-4 I gave Ellen White a pass for being Gnostic on question #5 We are stuck on questions 6-8 – but then you changed the subject by attacking me and opposing everything I post – like an opposer does ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU!R" I am sorry, must have avoided this somehow, instead of overwhelming me, show/choose your best theme, only ONE please, not several, it only takes ONE to bring her messages down, So clearly present your case for one error. D"ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU!Instead of avoiding – deflecting – and changing the subject R" OK I will, as long as you put ONE question before me? Not several. One error is all your need. And the error you choose must be testable using all the rules of science. OK ? The questions are numbered so anyone can tell them apartD"Why are you afraid to touch this one? - it must be good - maybe I will look at it R" I read his website, saw his face, it takes one error to bring them down remember? Doesn’t seem to apply to your Ellen White - or Ezekiel - or Luke – or the Book of Acts – or the Catechism of the Roman Catholic ChurchThe Biblical Satan (Parts One & Two: The Greek Scriptures)Thanks for this - what an intelligent Greek scholar
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2022 15:32:29 GMT -5
I hear many SDA even say elohiym is a spirit? Where is the Scripture? Only this one misquoted "God (is) spirit.... it actually says "elohiym ruwach"..... (is) supplied by translators.
The word ruwach means medium anyway, not spirit, like a wind is a medium system, for air (media) carrying energy in the medium.
Joh 4:24 πνεῦμα ὁ Θεός, This = normative + normative I am – or I am me – or I = me
John 4:24 says – God is Spirit – Spirit is God – God = Spirit – Spirit = God
Literal Geek would be – Spirt the God – or The God Spirit English examples – Coach Bill - who is the Coach and who is Bill President Omar – who is who? Husband Fred – who is who? Spirit God – which one is the Spirit and which one is the God?
2Co 3:17 ὁ δὲ Κύριος τὸ Πνεῦμά ἐστιν· οὗ δὲ τὸ Πνεῦμα Κυρίου, ἐκεῖ ἐλευθερία.
δὲ – conjunction more emphatic than ‘and’
G1510 - εἰμί - First person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic): - am, have been, X it is I, was.
ὁ Κύριος τὸ Πνεῦμά ἐστιν = The Lord The Spirit exist
οὗ δὲ τὸ Πνεῦμα Κυρίου,= δὲ - οὗ τὸ Πνεῦμα Κυρίου
G3757 - οὗ - Genitive case of G3739 as adverb; at which place, that is, where: - where (-in), whither ([-soever]).
οὗ δὲ τὸ Πνεῦμα Κυρίου,= and whither the SPIRIT LORD
G1563 - ἐκεῖ - there; by extension thither: - there, thither G1657 - ἐλευθερία - From G1658; freedom (legitimate or licentious, chiefly moral or ceremonial): - liberty.
2Co 3:17 ὁ δὲ Κύριος τὸ Πνεῦμά ἐστιν· οὗ δὲ τὸ Πνεῦμα Κυρίου, ἐκεῖ ἐλευθερία. and/but - The Lord The Spirit exist – and wherever the SPIRIT LORD - there; by extension (moral) freedom / liberty
2Co 3:18 ἡμεῖς δὲ πάντες ἀνακεκαλυμμένῳ προσώπῳ τὴν δόξαν Κυρίου κατοπτριζόμενοι τὴν αὐτὴν εἰκόνα μεταμορφούμεθα ἀπὸ δόξης εἰς δόξαν, καθάπερ ἀπὸ Κυρίου Πνεύματος.
G2509 – καθάπερ - From G2505 and G4007; exactly as: - (even, as well) as.
G575 - ἀπό - A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of),
Κυρίου = Lord Πνεύματος = Spirit – but in N-GSN (Noun, Genative (possession, "of"; also origin or separation, "from"), Singular, Neuter
2Co 3:18 ἡμεῖς δὲ πάντες ἀνακεκαλυμμένῳ προσώπῳ τὴν δόξαν Κυρίου κατοπτριζόμενοι τὴν αὐτὴν εἰκόνα μεταμορφούμεθα ἀπὸ δόξης εἰς δόξαν, exactly as the Spirit of the Lord
My translation = 2Co 3:17 - and/but - The Lord The Spirit exist – and wherever the SPIRIT LORD - there; by extension (moral) freedom / liberty 2Co 3:18 (Blah blah blah ……), exactly as the Spirit of the Lord
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Ruach Adonai is, there is freedom. 2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory—just as from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2Co 3:17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is , there is liberty; 2Co 3:18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
I hear many SDA even say elohiym is a spirit? Where is the Scripture? Only this one misquoted "God (is) spirit.... it actually says "elohiym ruwach"..... (is) supplied by translators. You are Correct (is) is supplied by the translators The Greek says - The Lord The Spirit exist
The word ruwach means medium anyway, not spirit, like a wind is a medium system, for air (media) carrying energy in the medium.
What you say of the Spirit is true God spoke the word – the word went out – the word was God at a distance from the source – this is the spirit of God – the Holy Spirit – Gods expression = a 10 dimensional reality / 10 heavens At the base of it ALL = YES – it forms 2D vibrational EM spectrum that is the base medium / matrix / ether of the ALL At the top of it ALL = the Spirit of God – the Word of God = God – a singularity – 1D 3D = Christ – and our reality
Is this Jewish pantheism – YES on the subatomic scale Gen 1:1 In the beginning God bara the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God fattened the heavens and the earth.
God did not create something out of nothing E=mc2 c2 is an expression - or a translation of E m is an expression - or a trans mutation of E
Energy cannot be destroyed - only translated ot transmuted
God (singularity) = 2D Spirit (c2) = 3D image (m) Christ
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God bara the heavens (The spiritual age - host of heaven) 1D = 2D - expansion - distance - space/time
and the earth. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness WHY #1 - Entropy is an inherent by-product of neg-entropy / creation Why #2 - The first sentient made with some matter = (yester ra) - Self Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness. Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne.
Gen 1:4 ... So God distinguished the light from the darkness. Gen 1:4 ... and God separateth between the light and the darkness, Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought, Rev 12:8 but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2022 16:22:35 GMT -5
Greetings Dave You speak little of the "spirit beings" only posting Internet sources. I shall list only the torah as my source. De 18:10 There shall not be found <matsa'> among you any one that maketh his son <ben> or his daughter <bath> to pass <`abar> through the fire <'esh>, or that useth <qacam> divination <qecem>, or an observer of times <`anan>, or an enchanter <nachash>, or a witch <kashaph>, There are many words we are to avoid: qacam qecem anan nachash kashaph So obviously the shedim uses all these words as powers, which we are to avoid. I will quote the verses that use qacam.1Sa 28:8 And Saul <Sha'uwl> disguised <chaphas> himself, and put on <labash> other <'acher> raiment <beged>, and he went <yalak>, and two <sh@nayim> men <'enowsh> with him, and they came <bow'> to the woman <'ishshah> by night <layil>: and he said <'amar>, I pray thee, divine <qacam> unto me by the familiar spirit <'owb>, and bring me him up <`alah>, whom I shall name <'amar> unto thee. The qacam use the powers of the owb, not the ruwach. And the woman <'ishshah> said <'amar> unto Saul <Sha'uwl>, I saw <ra'ah> gods <'elohiym> ascending <`alah> out of the earth <'erets>. This has to refer to the shedim, the false elohiym powers that live on the earth. ( your archons if you will) So this "owb" is an interesting word, what is it? Le 19:31 Regard <panah> not them that have familiar spirits <'owb>, neither seek <baqash> after wizards <yidd@`oniy>, Job 32:19 Behold, my belly <beten> is as wine <yayin> which hath no vent <pathach>; it is ready to burst <baqa`> like new <chadash> bottles <'owb>. A strange context? Isa 8:19 And when they shall say <'amar> unto you, Seek <darash> unto them that have familiar spirits <'owb>, and unto wizards <yidd@`oniy> that peep <tsaphaph>, and that mutter <hagah>: hagah Jeff explains when one speaks to himself, like in the mind, self talk. These owb's do a lot of self talk in us? Some research for you Dave? What do Jews say the owb is? Is there a NT word for this ? SO not many answers coming from all the verses I studied here. Jeff Benner does not list H 178. Bother. We are told to leave them alone, so that is what I do. D" Until you are willing to defend her – I reject her in her entirety by the Robert rule of literature One error and it is all trashR" Fair enough, I will not use her, however I am entitled to post my own research, you do not have to read her writings. I am not so rude as to ask you to remove Gnostic writings.... D" How can any created being be equal with hid creator?R" WHo said these opposing elohiym powers being equal in power? Not me. One is a Creator, the other a Creature, nothing equal here. One is able to read thoughts and see into all things, the other is just a creature dealing with observed actions, has no ability to read the future or the minds of others, so nothing equal here between them, need I go on? Why do you even post such a weird idea? Doesn't come from me. D" Created creatures can only be gods – false gods – other gods – gods of this world – gods of the levant R" correct. D" There is no such thing as a war between a created creature and God It would be – and always is NO CONTESTR" Are you so dull as to not imagine? Imagine you have two beautiful daughters and both do ice skating, and they love you as their Daddy for years, but over the years, one of the daughters get jealous of the other daugher who get more favours and remarks of her skating than she does. So here love responds less and begins to be proud, and rejects relationship with you and begins to hate her sister. What is going wrong here? All have free will, but the emotions of jealousy is causing one daughter to hate the other, and so you have a war on your hands. She get angry, and hits your other daughter, pushed her own one day, breaking her ankle, so now only the dark daughter can skate. She claims she did push her over, so the little war continues. What is going on here? Its called sin, when the daughter is missing her love from her Daddy, begins inventing her own attentions, and seeks relationship from a dark boyfriend, making the relationship worse. She does drugs, claiming you did once, and so goes deeper and deeper into open rebellion. You are the bigger force in the home, she is just your created creature, a child of your love and hope, but now a spoilt lost and prodigal that refuses to come home. She is home with you, but totally absorbed in her own world, not your world anymore. So you kick her out of your house because she is beginning to do violence in your family. In all this war, it is only a war of relationship, houses can be repaired, feelings restored, but relationships that are broken are not easily repaired. Once in heaven the highest guarding angel decided to sin and rebel against God, and turned to hate God instead of loving Him, because of the jealousy over the Son who received more attention than He did. I throw this excuse in because we simply do not know how SIN occurred in the first place. D" I say angels – the good guys – were created to be angels I say the Beast – is an inherent by-product of physical creation – never an angel – created differently – with some matterR" Oh OK Angels are programmed as creatures to praise. Archons are programmed as creature to do RA. Both are totally different creature kinds. OK How come some angels chose to sin and shape shift to have sex with women? How is this even possible if they are just programmed machines that praise? And while your Gnostic has an origin of archons, the Hebrew torah does not. We have a problem here. The only origin of creatures sinning apart from humans is Ezek 28, a verse you refuse to observe. D" Is scripture deceiving you Robert – admit it?R" WHat a laugh. Scripture can never deceive you, it only brings truth and light. YOu read Gnostic writings instead and they deceive you. -------------------- D" (WHM)H7523 רָצחַ ratsach (raw-tsach') v. 1. (properly) to dash in pieces, i.e. to slay or cause the death of (a human being). 2. (especially) to murder. 3. (by justice) to execute.
KJV: put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).
R" The command is no wounding, NOT no killing. Sorry Robert – your made up rebuttal is error--------------- From Jeff Benner's Lexicon 2790) ,]V (,]V RTsHh) ac: Murder co: Wound ab: ?: An unjustifiable killing or slaughter. [from: ]V - dashed into pieces] V) ,]V (,]V R-TsHh) — Murder: [freq. 47] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Pual, Piel, Participle) |kjv: slayer, murderer, kill, murder, slain, manslayer, killing, death| {str: 7523} Nm) ,]V (,]V R-TsHh) — Wound: A deadly wound. [freq. 2] |kjv: sword, slaughter| {str: 7524} ---------------- The word comes in two forms, the noun and the verb, BOTH must have the same meanings with differences in action. He went to love her with his love. He went to record a record. The farmer produced produce. The plough went all day to plough. The soldier wounded the opponent with wounds. In all these cases, the words are the same meaning, only differences in action. Now Dave "Sorry Robert – your made up rebuttal is error" show me that this discovery of word meanings is an error. Jeff Benner does NOT listen to this discovery, whereas I do, and must. Now you are telling me these words "love, record, produce, plough and wound" are totally different words just because some are used as nouns and some are used as verbs? ANother weird thing Hebrew does, it does not have negative word meanings, so the negative meanings depend upon the context. "Bless God and die" Mrs Job said to Mr Job, is one example. In this case we use the opposite meaning, so Hebrew can be confusing to the uwary. ANother weird thing is Hebrew loves repetition of sounds, in English we don't. "The painter painted with paint the painting" "The sower sowed the sowning" ---------------- D" I HATE YOUR IDEA THAT ANYTHING CAN BLOCK GOD OR HIDE FROM GOD!. I HAVE IT CLEAR TO YOU MANY TIMESGe 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. It 's a science fact Dave, measure the lumens from the light source and than measure the lumens behind the object blocking some of the light, the meter measures less light here. Duh. How else are umbra shadows made? You tell me? Adam and Eve hid, did God know they were there behind the tree? Yes God knew. The HS knew also. The HS was the first to know exposing their bodies as naked. Actually God was the first to know when they sinned, some missing went astray from the Father. Facts are facts Dave, light diminishes behind an object blocking the light. SUch a process produces a umbra shadow. Of course you can't hide from God, or block God, the shadow experiments are not saying that... you twist and disagree just to be different. D "ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU! The questions are numbered so anyone can tell them apart=======================Dave's so called questions=============== 1- They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE - petrified wood never becomes coal Coal beds pre-date petrified woodRob" No question here, just discussion??" 2- This coal has produced oil. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE – true you can make a hydrocarbon fuel from coal – coal gas – Hitler fueled his country with it - But oil and coal are made by two different processesRob" No question here, just discussion??" 3- . God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE Both earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of Whole Earth Decompression Both earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of harmonic balance and plate tectonicsRob" No question here, just discussion??" 4- God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR GOD OF TOV ONLY - does no ra?Rob" No question here, just discussion??" ======================See my problem================= I will attempt your first question Hypothesis: Does Coal predate petrified wood? Introduction: Dave claims that coal was created in Creation Week? Therefore the coal did not come from the Great Flood from decaying wood that was washed a squeezed, into petrified wood, and later becoming soft brown coal and later black hardened coal. Such claims cannot be tested by science, as this happened in the past. However science can test the idea does wood become coal, can petrified wood become coal? Discussion:www.0095.info/en/index_thesesen_95onesentencethesesagainste_petroleumcoalandpetrifiedwo.html#:~:text=Petrified%20wood%20is%20used%2C%20for%20example%2C%20for%20tabletops,leaves%20can%20be%20converted%20to%20coal%20overnight%20%281%29. 51 Petroleum, coal and petrified wood Menu | back
The claim that it requires long periods of time for the development of oil, coal or petrified wood is obsolete. Rapid formation of oil has already been tested experimentally for some time and in 2006 it was discovered that coal can form overnight under favourable conditions. Patents have already been registered for some years for petrifaction of wood. Petrified wood is used, for example, for tabletops and chimney plates.
Formation of coal:
An announcement by the Max-Planck Institute indicates that straw, wood, moist grass or leaves can be converted to coal overnight (1). A process has been presented with which plant biomass can be converted virtually completely to carbon and water directly without complicated intermediate steps. The process is called hydrothermal carbonization. It works like a steam pressure cooker, only at higher temperatures.
The cooking recipe for coal is amazingly simple. A pressure vessel is filled with any type of vegetable products, for example, with leaves, straw, grass, pieces of wood or pinecones. Then water and a small quantity of citric acid are added. The vessel is then sealed and the content is heated under pressure for twelve hours at 180 degrees Celsius. After the mixture has cooled down, the vessel is opened. It contains an aqueous black broth with finely distributed spherical-shaped particles of carbon called colloids. All carbon previously contained in the vegetable material is now in the form of these particles as small, porous lignite balls.
Rapid formation of coal in nature:
In the Triassic or Jurassic period, carbon strata developed within only twenty-five to thirty years. This is revealed by the oval and circular concentric polonium radiohalos present in the material. Polonium-210 has a half-life of 138.4 days. If the radiohalos developed before compression of the coal stratum, they all would have to be oval (2).Formation of petroleum: For formation of sediment basins and the petroleum reserves present therein, geoscientists assume protracted processes lasting millions of years. By contrast, hydropyrolyses laboratory experiments on bedrock from sediment basins showed that petroleum can be formed and extracted very quickly at appropriately high temperatures or under suitable catalytic conditions (3).
As reported by geologists Borys M. Didyk and Bernd R.T. Simoneit, a 500 m thick deposit of phytoplankton, freely suspended seaweed from which petroleum escapes (4), is present in the Guaymas basin in the Gulf of California. Hypothermal fluids with a diameter of 8-12 cm are present at the surface of these sediments from which hot water exits at a temperature of 200°C. This water carries small spheres of oil with a diameter of 1-2 cm with it. Detailed research has shown that the composition of this oil is very similar to common petroleum. Age measurements using the radiocarbon method indicated 4,200-4,900 years. The oil formed at a temperature of over 315°C at a pressure of 200 bars. The estimate of the quantity of oil formed showed that use of the oil would be worthwhile if it could be collected.------------------------------ www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166516202001167 The development of coal petrology and the establishment of a nomenclatural system have proved of major use both for the industrial utilization of coal and for the development of a broad understanding of coal formation and diagenesis. The development, over the past 30 years, however, of nomenclature that includes aspects of plant origin and process is a retrograde step (e.g. pyrofusinite, degradofusinite, and funginite). Equally problematic is the use of prescriptive formulae to indicate coal ‘origins’. This paper reviews some of the problems involved with coal petrology as it is usually practiced. In addition, new advances in organic geochemical techniques have led to a fuller understanding of the relationship of plants and coal macerals.Rob" THis is going to be a hard research paper/theme, as evolutionists to not entertain a global flood deposit of wood all at once over the earth. www.icr.org/article/origin-coal/The Origin of Coal BY STUART E. NEVINS, M.S. | MONDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 1976 Share Email Facebook Twitter Pinterest Accumulated, compacted and altered plants form a sedimentary rock called coal. It is not only a resource of great economic importance, but a rock of intense fascination to the student of earth history. Although coal forms less than one percent of the sedimentary rock record, it is of foremost importance to the Bible-believing geologist. Here is where he finds one of his strongest geological arguments for the reality of the great Noachian Flood.
Two theories have been proposed to explain the formation of coal. The popular theory held by many uninformitarian geologists is that the plants which compose the coal were accumulated in large freshwater swamps or peat bogs during many thousands of years. This first theory which supposes growth-in-place of vegetable material is called the autochthonous theory.
The second theory suggests that coal strata accumulated from plants which had been rapidly transported and deposited under flood conditions. This second theory which claims transportation of vegetable debris is called the allochthonous theory.
Rob" Several hours later. ... It's not easy finding pictures of tree stumps in coal seam beds. At Rathmines along a cliff we see them embedded in the coal, many upside down tree stumps. For some reason such pictures are rare on the Internet. Pity I can't easily travel to Rathmines NSW and take pictures like these. The problem with this discussion is we are presenting science papers that discuss a past event. Open to assumptions, the past is. Anyhow, please discuss your discussion and we can begin. -------------------------------------added by Dave----------------------- D" English examples –
Coach Bill - who is the Coach and who is Bill
President Omar – who is who?
Husband Fred – who is who?
Spirit God – which one is the Spirit and which one is the God?
R"Nice, in Gen 1:2 It says ruwach elohiym And John 4:24 is say elohiym ruwach One is translated as a assumed contruct state, "spirit of god" and the other is assumed requires the "is" "god is spirit" Why don't we leave the Hebrew alone? Ge 1:2 And the Holy Spirit Elohiym moved upon the face of the waters. (this is more fair) Joh 4:24 Elohiym Holy Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in Holy Spirit and in truth. (more fair) SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 5, 2022 10:03:14 GMT -5
You speak little of the "spirit beings" only posting Internet sources.More Robert honesty - My source used - Eph. 6:10-17, 1 Tim. 6:6-12, 2 Tim 1:8, Rom. 6:16-23, John 14:26, Gal. 5:16-26 It would really be helpful if you read my post – instead of just jumping at opposingI shall list only the torah as my source.De 18:10 There shall not be found <matsa'> among you any one that maketh his son <ben> or his daughter <bath> to pass <`abar> through the fire <'esh>, or that useth <qacam> divination <qecem>, or an observer of times <`anan>, or an enchanter <nachash>, or a witch <kashaph>, 1- I have asked you not to post from this source – if you want me to read it – personally I find all <the>hard <to> read – I <have> admitted <this> to you before - your respect is obvious 2- what does any of this have to do with proving or disproving spirit 3- Or how does any of this prove Ellen White a ProphetSo this "owb" is an interesting word, what is it? These owb's do a lot of self talk in us? Some research for you Dave? What do Jews say the owb is? Is there a NT word for this ?1- This thread is here for you to defend Ellen White as a Prophet of the Lord What does any of this have to do with validating Ellen White? 2- Instead of addressing the question before you – you are off on yet another tabgent in an attempt to avoid / evade / and change the subjectH178 is a polysemy word 1- it means the skin of a wine bottle 2- or it means an invisible archon – archon spirit 3- or a human connected to the archon spirits – mediums – Roger Mornou stuff Strongs - H178 אוֹב - From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father’s name); properly a mumble, that is, a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): - bottle, familiar spirit. Thayer – H178 1 - water skin bottle 2- necromancer necromancer, one who evokes the dead ghost, spirit of a dead one practice of necromancy one that has a familiar spirit (WHC) H178 אוֹב 'owb (oɓe) n-m. 1. (properly) a mumble, i.e. a water skin (from its hollow sound). 2. a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar). [from the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name)] KJV: bottle, familiar spirit. Jeff Benner does not list H 178. Bother. We are told to leave them alone, so that is what I do.Deu 18:10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or a fortune-teller, soothsayer, omen reader, or sorcerer, Deu 18:11 or one who casts spells, or a medium, a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. Deu 18:12 For whoever does these things is an abomination to Adonai, and because of these abominations Adonai your God is driving them out from before you. The scripture tells us to stay away from form the other gods – and their evil spirits Scripture tells us to stay away from psychic mediums and the archon who help themJeff Benner does not list H 178. Bother. We are told to leave them alone, so that is what I do.So you admit it – you refuse to study all of scriptureAnd interestingly – you admit you choose to know nothing about the Principalities that Pail tells us are are real struggleI believe you – you are a satanic Roman Fallen angel believer You refuse to even look at the scripture that destroys your doctrine2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for restoration, and for training in righteousness, 2Ti 3:17 so that the person belonging to God may be capable, fully equipped for every good deed. But you teach - don’t know all of scripture – leave parts of it misunderstood Is that consistent with the word of God – or something a satan would say?Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist when the times are evil, and after you have done everything, to stand firm. Eph 6:14 Stand firm then! Buckle the belt of truth around your waist, But you teach - don’t know the truth – you stand with church doctrineIs that consistent with the word of God – or something a satan would say?All you have done here is oppose an oppose and oppose Now you teach that we should not know or understand all of scriptureWhy do you oppose the word of GodD"Until you are willing to defend her – I reject her in her entirety by the Robert rule of literature One error and it is all trash R" Fair enough - I am not so rude as to ask you to remove Gnostic writings.... THIS THREAD IS HERE FOR YOU TO DENFEND YOU PROPHET
STILL WAITING – what has to be done to get you to answer a direct question?D"How can any created being be equal with his creator? R" WHo said these opposing elohiym powers being equal in power? Not me. Why do you even post such a weird idea? Doesn't come from me.It is all you have preached here since day 1 Roman Catholic Fallen Angels The Great Controversy and God's Love for Humanitywww.adventist.org › the-great-controversy This epic battle is sometimes referred to as the “Great Controversy,” the conflict between God and Satan. And all humanity is caught up in it Satan's War Against God - Scholars CrossingEzekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are the two major biblical passages that reveal the entrance of sin in the universe when Satan fell. Ezekiel 28 begins with a pronouncement of judgment upon the prince of Tyre, who turns out to be a reference to Lucifer or Satan who is behind the human king (28:11–19). “You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there, you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you,” says verses 14–15. Even though created beautiful and good, Satan, the top angel of God fell into sin and took a third of the other angels with him (Rev. 12:4, 9). Isaiah 14 is the other major passage that teaches us about the fall of Satan. Verses 13 and 14 record Satan’s famous declaration of rebellion when he said, “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” The Lord’s response to this declaration: “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit” (14:15). Satan became God’s opponent, His adversary who set out to dethrone God and obstruct His plan for history.The “Great Controversy,” the conflict between God and Satan. And all humanity is caught up in it D"How can any created being be equal with his creator? R" WHo said these opposing elohiym powers being equal in power? Not me. D"There is no such thing as a war between a created creature and God It would be – and always is NO CONTESTR" Are you so dull as to not imagine?
Once in heaven the highest guarding angel decided to sin and rebel against God, and turned to hate God instead of loving Him, because of the jealousy over the Son who received more attention than He did.Again with your Mormon ideas – fascinating similar ideas came upon the world in the same Great Awakening – 1830-1860s Mormons teach Christ and satan are twin sons – and satan walked out because he was jealous that Jehovah choose Christ plan of salvation Islam teaches – that Iblis (satan) is jealous of man because Iblis is made with fire and man is made from clay but God gave the Iblis’s Kingdoms dominion to man I throw this excuse in because we simply do not know how SIN occurred in the first place.Why do you deny scriptureRom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, D"I say angels – the good guys – were created to be angels I say the Beast – is an inherent by-product of physical creation – never an angel – created differently – with some matter R" Oh OK Angels are programmed as creatures to praise. Archons are programmed as creature to do RA. ( yester ra – like bacteria – or cows – or baboons)Both are totally different creature kinds.
OK
How come some angels chose to sin and shape shift to have sex with women? Because – wait for it - Archons are programmed as creature to do RA. (yester ra – like bacteria – or cows – or baboons)(yester ra) = self-preservation = hunger, greed, lust, desire, desire to reproduce It is the commandment God gave to all biology How is this even possible if they are just programmed machines that praise?You just said R" Oh OK Angels are programmed as creatures to praise.And - Angel kind are ethereal – spirit – not 3Dboilogy Mankind – corporeal = 3D biology Archons are programmed as creature to do RA. (yester ra – like bacteria – or cows – or baboons)Are made with ‘some matter’ not totally angelic – not totally 3D biology Archon are invisible to us – ‘just outside our field of vision are entities that are anything but human – that have been manipulating this world form the outside for eons’ – David Ike But – they can become visible = 3D biology – appear and disappear
King Solomon and Islam say – when they are in physical form you can kill them (kill their bodies) This is why they appear as familiars (English from - –H178 – obes / owbs) Dose a black cat really change into a black crow and fly away – NO But it can put that image into your head – power of suggestion Angels are programmed as creatures to praise.And - Angel kind are ethereal – spirit – not 3Dboilogy Mankind – corporeal = 3D biology Archons are programmed as creature to do RA. (yester ra – like bacteria – or cows – or baboons) Are made with ‘some matter’ not totally angelic – not totally 3D biologyBoth are totally different creature kinds. YES – Agree – Correct The Beast of revelation was NEVER an angel of the Lord It appeared as the Beast because it is the BeastAnd while your Gnostic has an origin of archons, the Hebrew torah does not. We have a problem here.Why – the Torah says nothing about uranium or the planet Pluto The inquisition told Galileo – if he saw moons around Jupiter – they must be in his telescope because they are not in scripture We have a problem here. The idea of opposing – just because of lack of information was ignorant in 1600 and today -------------------- R" The command is no wounding, NOT no killing. Sorry Robert – your made up rebuttal is error From Jeff Benner's Lexicon Wound: A deadly wound. [freq. 2] |kjv: sword, slaughter| {str: 7524}
The word comes in two forms, the noun and the verb, BOTH must have the same meanings with differences in action.
A deadly wound. – could be a single puncture to the heart sword, slaughter – suggests something more messy BOTH = DEATH – cause deathIn all these cases, the words are the same meaning, only differences in action. A deadly wound. – could be a single puncture to the heart sword, slaughter – suggests something more messy BOTH = DEATH – cause death Kill = to cause a death Murder – to cause a death intentionally - deliberatelyNow Dave "Sorry Robert – your made up rebuttal is error" ---------------- D"I HATE YOUR IDEA THAT ANYTHING CAN BLOCK GOD OR HIDE FROM GOD!. I HAVE IT CLEAR TO YOU MANY TIMES Ge 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. It 's a science fact Dave, measure the lumens from the light source and than measure the lumens behind the object blocking some of the light, the meter measures less light here. Duh. Everything you say is absolutely true and correct in the WORLD Umbra shadow is cause by something blocking the light The more and more sin we put between us and God the more we block His light to us OK – it could be a nice sermonPrecept upon precept, line upon line - There is nowhere you can hide from God – nothing can block the Spirit of God – even in the depths of hell (if you believe it) there is God Psa 139:7 Where can I go from Your Ruach? Where can I flee from Your presence? Psa 139:8 If I go up to heaven, You are there, and if I make my bed in Sheol, look, You are there too. Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the dawn and settle on the other side of the sea, Psa 139:10 even there Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will lay hold of me. Adam and Eve hid, did God know they were there behind the tree? Yes God knew. D"ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU! The questions are numbered so anyone can tell them apart =======================Dave's so called questions===============Listen to the sound of your respect Actually questions 1-3 were from Dillon – you have never seen his presentation have you You just start posting opposition to what you do not know1- They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE - petrified wood never becomes coal Coal beds pre-date petrified wood Rob" No question here, just discussion??"Listen to the sound of your respect – or you cannot read – you pretend you do not see – or you cannot find the beginning of this thread Your pretend ignorance is not honest – why are you so afraid to gift us with PROPHESY Why are you so hesitant to defend you own doctrine?Form the first post to this Thread(google search for ) [3SG 79, 80] Spiritual Gifts. Volume 3, Ellen G. White, 1864 Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times larger than any trees which we now see. They were of great durability. They would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. At the time of the flood these forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some places large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. This coal has produced oil. God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes and fiery issues. …. 1- They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE - petrified wood never becomes coal Coal beds pre-date petrified wood Rob" No question here, just discussion??"The question is – Is Ellen White a Prophet of the Lord The Question is – is she accurate – does she tell the truthRemember your rule – one slip up and all of her must be discardedAS for her science – I gave her some slackNow I have discussed the passage in question. Yes some parts Science may disagree with. I read things like this way back in 1980. I AGREE 1- she does not agree with science – scripture does She does not agree with science because she goes too far – while scripture is less specific 2- She goes too far – with period dated information Meaning – her information is only relative to her timeExample – her scientific views are very 19th century centric WIGS (ARTIFICIAL HAIR PIECES) COSMETIC POISONING WASP-WAIST CORSETS AND PHYSICAL TRANSMISSION PROBLEMS A LITERAL "MIASMA" DANGERS FROM EATING OF CHEESE All of her comments on these topics are all period dated – what she said was true in 1880s - and relevant to the 1880sThis does not validate Ellen White as a Prophet of God that has corrective teaching for the Torah This does not validate that Ellen White is consistent with the Torah 2- This coal has produced oil. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE – true you can make a hydrocarbon fuel from coal – coal gas – Hitler fueled his country with it - But oil and coal are made by two different processes Rob" No question here, just discussion??" 3- . God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE Both earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of Whole Earth Decompression Both earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of harmonic balance and plate tectonics Rob" No question here, just discussion??" 4- God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR GOD OF TOV ONLY - does no ra? Rob" No question here, just discussion??" ======================See my problem================= What are you admitting to – a reading comprehension issues – or you avoiding answering the question?
You have quite a list here Dave, where do we begin? DUH MORE ROBERT NONSENSEOK Robert here we are – waiting Here is the issue I wish you to make clearWhy do the words of a wife of an elder of a failed prophesy group supersede scripture But the disciples who wrote the agl/NT are all questionable Gnostic men and heathens. Questions 1-3 are all about Dillon’s video on coal Question 5 – I gave her credit for – did you miss that? Questions 6-9 are very troublesome AND TO AVOIDMORE ROBERT NONSENSE – such honesty – so academic –I asked you a direct question AYou responded with B and answered B – and think your slickAvoid the direct question – refuse to take a stand - always change the question – alter the statement – misrepresent it into something you want to answer I am speaking about the questions on this thread to you – not some other list you presented6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL? 7. WAS ADAM WITH EVE WHEN SHE WAS TEMPTED IN THE GARDEN? 8. WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN? 9. WHO PLUCKED THE FRUIT? I will attempt your first question - Hypothesis: Does Coal predate petrified wood?Actually Robert – we have already discusses this on this very thread Again – you miss direct Introduction: Dave claims that coal was created in Creation Week? Therefore the coal did not come from the Great Flood – became petrified wood, and later becoming soft brown coal and later black hardened coal.
Such claims cannot be tested by science, as this happened in the past. Actually questions 1-3 were from Dillon – you have never seen his presentation have you You just start posting opposition to what you do not knowHowever science can test the idea does wood become coal, can petrified wood become coal?Robert – you are embarrassing your self Rob" THis is going to be a hard research paper/theme, as evolutionists to not entertain a global flood deposit of wood all at once over the earth.Why would you look to evolutionist for answers?www.icr.org/article/origin-coal/The Origin of Coal BY STUART E. NEVINS, M.S. | MONDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 1976 Robert – science has come a long way in 60 years You ancient fossil fuel ideas are obsolete – and so are Ellen White’sRob" Several hours later. ... It's not easy finding pictures of tree stumps in coal seam beds. At Rathmines along a cliff we see them embedded in the coal, many upside down tree stumps. For some reason such pictures are rare on the Internet.They are called polystrate fossilsI rely on them a lot for my Geophysics theory There are entire national parks dedicated to them in Scotland and England The coal was already there before the upheaval The upheaval could have been the Flood – but the coal pre-existed Pity I can't easily travel to Rathmines NSW and take pictures like these.It is one reason I live in the American Southwest – there is much interesting evidence here I have been to several petrified forests – both North and South sides of the Grand Canyon All a resulting log jam as from flood waters Petrified wood is a fossilization process – the organic material is replaced by harder minerals – not carbon The problem with this discussion is we are presenting science papers that discuss a past event. Open to assumptions, the past is. I have spent 25 years working on those assumptions – FD-WEDTAnyhow, please discuss your discussion and we can begin.Watching Dillon’s video would be a startWhat about the coal layer?video Why almost all coal was made at the same time Dillon asks " Why almost all coal was made at the same time?I will get back to you on this video Dillon. ----------- One is translated as a assumed contruct state, "spirit of god" and the other is assumed requires the "is" "god is spirit" Why don't we leave the Hebrew alone?Ge 1:2 And the Holy Spirit Elohiym moved upon the face of the waters. (this is more fair) YES – Absolutley Correct - AgreeJoh 4:24 Elohiym Holy Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in Holy Spirit and in truth. (more fair) Nice tryJoh 4:24 Elohiym Holy Spirit: and they that worship him must worship with (Spirit to spirit) and in truth. (more fair) Correct---------- P.S.2- This coal has produced oil. NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE – true you can make a hydrocarbon fuel from coal – coal gas – Hitler fueled his country with it - But oil and coal are made by two different processes Rob" No question here, just discussion??" Ellen White's science does not stand the test of time oil and coal are made by two different processes Dillon posted a great video about coal formation - I fully endorse it Oil was once thought to be a fossile fuel - but science today embrace the abiotic oil theory 3- . God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes NOT TRUE – NOT EVEN CLOSE Both earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of Whole Earth Decompression Both earthquakes and volcanoes are the consequence of harmonic balance and plate tectonics Rob" No question here, just discussion??" Ellen White's science does not stand the test of time4- God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR GOD OF TOV ONLY - does no ra? Rob" No question here, just discussion??" For 2 1/2 years you have been preaching that earthquakes, fire, volcanoes are all the result of sin Ellen White says it is all God's work Do you agree with your own prophet or not?
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Post by Dillon on Mar 5, 2022 16:56:01 GMT -5
I don’t know what I have to offer to your normal debate, but Dave is right about coal, oil, and gas as a fossil fuel is obsolete. This idea is no longer taught in American Universities. In Colorado mining is big business. Colorado School of Mines is the Harvard, or MIT, of civil engineering. If you took a tour of a coal mine in your area, I bet you would be presented with the same science.
Why was most of the Earth's coal made all at once? - Ars ...https://arstechnica.com › science › 2016/01 › why-was-... Jan 22, 2016 — With nothing to make them decay, their remains were free to pile up and yield thick coal deposits. It's a neat story, but, a new study led by ...
The Fantastically Strange Origin of Most Coal on Earthhttps://www.nationalgeographic.com › science › article Jan 7, 2016 — Had those bacteria been around devouring wood, they'd have broken carbon bonds, releasing carbon and oxygen into the air, but instead the carbon ...
Delayed fungal evolution did not cause the Paleozoic ... - PNAShttps://www.pnas.org › content by MP Nelsen · 2016 · Cited by 109 — Consequently, lignin is expected to have been a greater contribution to coal formation both before and after this interval of lycopsid ...
Stanford scientists discover how Pangea helped make coalhttps://news.stanford.edu › news › january › coal-forma... Jan 22, 2016 — ... supercontinent Pangea together also helped form the ancient coal ... the wood-eating microbes and bacteria that could break them down.
White Rot Fungi Slowed Coal Formation - Scientific Americanhttps://www.scientificamerican.com › article › mushroo... Jun 28, 2012 — Called lignin, the compound enables redwoods to tower and woody herbs to resist rot. As a result, lignin is the second-most abundant biological ...
Coal formation - Energy Educationhttps://energyeducation.ca › encyclopedia › Coal_form... Jan 4, 2019 — The plant matter becomes buried, and are no longer exposed to air. Anaerobic bacteria then starts to decompose the material. Burial and ...
Climate, decay, and the death of the coal forests - ScienceDirecthttps://www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › pii by D Hibbett · 2016 · Cited by 26 — White rot causes a thinning of cell walls and an erosion that removes all ... Coal swamps were formed from the Carboniferous into the Late ...
Lack of fungi did not lead to copious Carboniferous coalhttps://www.earthmagazine.org › article › lack-fungi-di... May 19, 2016 — According to one hypothesis, the formation of all this coal is ... true of ancient trees before microbes and fungi evolved to break it down, ... Missing: causes decay
How Ancient Forests Formed Coal and Fueled Life as We ...https://www.discovermagazine.com › planet-earth › ho... Mar 24, 2021 — Modernity owes much to coal deposits laid down in swamps around 350 ... yet evolved to decompose lignin, the polymer that makes wood rigid.
Why almost all coal was made at the same time
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 15:21:53 GMT -5
Nice video Dillon.
The speaker suggests coal comes from wood, and postulated the bacteria which decomposes the lignin wasn't able to decompose the wood, hence it accumulated, but later the bacteria evolved to decompose lignin.
There are several things from this video
(1) The speaker supports evolution. Dave and myself, dislike evolution, so this video is not evidence for either of us.
(2) The speaker says coal comes from trees, which is exactly the same view I have.
(3) He says the trees all came at once on the earth, could also be the same view as all the trees were all at once buried by the Great Flood, different views of the same evidence?
My view is God created all the creatures and plants, and when sin came into the world, God destroyed the earth with a great flood. This event buried all the trees in one time, with so much rock over the top of them, that the bacteria could not decompose them. Hence they exist today all over the world, in sedimentary rocks, the rocks of the Great Flood.
I was investigating if wood turns into coal. Especially if petrified wood turns into coal. The large holes in wood can be filled with other minerals, not reasons to think the carbon went missing, but it's hard to find any science study on the subject of petrified wood and coal.
Your links I could not read, are not fully click on them, links. The subject we are all studying is immense, and the number of questions too many for me, I'm sorry.
Enjoy your day my friend SHalom
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