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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 14:12:01 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Your reply is kind and very detail, and also very clear. Thanks for a really good explanation.
D: Here is the difference. I fully understand your Catholic view R: I don't see my view as Catholic, it's Hebrew ?
D: 1-God is only TOV. God can do no harm. God is only love and mercy. And everything God created is perfect – He is incapable of making anything imperfect
R: to make anything imperfect, would be by definition not supporting Elohiym, and be a sin. However, the other tree in the garden was not called ra, it was called tov and ra. There were two trees in the garden of Eden, one tree was tov. The other tree tov and ra. There is no such thing as pure ra, as a tree. Einstein says ra on it's own cannot exist. He is right. So when Ra begin with the first angel who sinned, there was ra in heaven, war in heaven and sin in heaven.
So God makes an entire universe capable of doing with less of God's power if creatures choose this option, hence allow ra to come into the universe. So our universe was initally made all tov. But the provision was also designed in the universe for ra and tov to flood in, if Adam chose to disobey God. This was a test to Adam, because war was already in heaven, and many angels were found already sinning.
Now what I have written, you might see me agreeing with you, God made a universe with both tov and ra in it. No God made provision for a universe of tov and ra, but only if Adam disobeyed. The tree was a test. So when it says:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Light is formed by GOD. Ra only came in from a Fallen World. Salvation came in for a Fallen World.
Originally our universe was created Unfallen, no need for ra, no need for salvation. You seem to think if there is only a tov only menu, ra cannot come into existence? Well free will choice implies, choice. Choice implies one could choose to walk with GOD or walk away from GOD. Thus their is a relationship choice.
There were two trees in the Garden initially, thus there was choice. It was a test. Choose all tov, enjoy peace, no salvation required because no ra exists. Or choose tov and ra, get light and dark, more power or less power from God, salvation is required because no ra exists.
I could perhaps see your side a little Dave, after all, when ra flooded in, much of ra was designed already by GOD, ie friction, entropy, dissorder, thermodynamics, mutations, decays, etc. But while this is apparently a side not seen in GOD before, these natural things resulted from Adam's disobedience. I get Eve sinned first, but the kingdom crown lay on Adam's head, not his wife. He had to sin also. And this explains why the G constant is 120 decimals of accuracy, our world is finely tuned for dealing with ra while we also have tov. And this fine tuning is created by God as the verse 45:7 says.
BUT you're saying God created tov and ra in creation for Adam and Eve. no
This would mean one tree. A tree of tov and ra. No choice, No test possible. In your logic, if I have a world of both tov and ra menu, where is my choice of free will? Both menu comes from GOD, and already in my world with GOD. Thus sin comes from GOD too. But there were two trees, one tree was all tov, the other tree was tov and ra. And Adam was tested by choice.
Adam could choose live in all of GOD's power of tov, or live while daily dying in less of God's power (a thing God created and designed called tov and ra).
Imagine a world without ra shadows, the light floods everywhere. Adam is carried on the wings of the Holy Spirit, He does not walk like we do using friction.
When Adam sinned, many changes rapidly happened, all designed by GOD (yes), but a direct result of sin coming into humanity. Adam looked down and saw ra shadows for the first time, why? Because less light blazed unto the earth, from 7 fold brightness to single fold brightness. The Holy Spirit shrank about them, so they walked hard on the earth, causing loss of God's power (friction) and nakedness.
The tree that came in from sin, contained tov and ra in it. The tree that could make them live eternally, had only tov in it. There were two trees in the Garden. Not one as your theory implies.
D: 2-Yet – your satan and 1/3 of all the angels were not perfect – in fact they have risen up against God and war against God
R: Your meaning of perfect needs you to make more defining. Hebrew meaning of perfect is complete. Angel in a unfallen condition are complete in GOD. the relationship is complete. They loved to respond. Hence Love movitated the angels. After a million years the relationship seems robotic, but it had choice, and free will. How can you have a war against GOD, with angels? I don't know. Maybe over words. Words have power.
Nobody dies. Not yet anyway. By definition once you move away from GOD, you are no longer complete. That is a natural law how sin is defined. Not supporting GOD is sin. Could the angels return back to GOD? Many did I suppose, but many did not. It was a war of decision.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. (KJV)
This gives a clue. Choice is all we have. If we choose GOD we are tov. If we choose NOT God, we are ra. It's got nothing to do with imperfect, bad genes, heat loss, broken leg, it's all about choice initially.
3- You God is weak in unable to defend / STOP satan and the evil satan created as a second creator god
In a fallen world, love is a weak force. Is that a problem? Could not GOD just wipe them out? yes, but the other tov angels would be confused... No wounding. God cannot violate His own laws.
Now regarding the ten commandments, are they written for a unfallen world, or a fallen world? They would have to be for a unfallen world? Yet the words used imply a fallen world? So in a fallen world, what laws and doings are judged differently, because your hearts were hard?
Mt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Ex 21:1 ¶ Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
What does these laws mean to you Dave? Are these not for a fallen world? You raise an interesting question Dave.
D: 4- Whenever God does cause harm in the ahl – you cannot explain it with a million justifications God sent the angel of death – but God is not the angel of death – so satan most be the angel of death, but satan is against God – so satan does as God commands – it is circle reasoning
R: The angel of death is the Holy Spirit doing the Father's strange act. When dealing in a fallen world, different rules apply? Do they? Where is the Scripture for this idea? Since all living comes from GOD, I don't see a problem with GOD removing His presence. Especially if you want to live without GOD. Do you think evil people can live forever, Dave, without GOD? Or are they alive because of love? On probation?
D: 5- and with the addition of Ellen Whites teaching you now believe that many of the ahl and agl prophesies no longer matter R: ??
D: 6- you think RA is a mistake and not created by God or under God’s control
R: Ra is under God's control, as the shadow experiment shows, you walk away, you get ra shadows. But only in a world of less light. It won't work under a flood light.
D: The Gnostic view 1- God created everything and is everything – there is nothing without God God created TOV and RA – if TOV serves a purpose then so does RA
R: Your making tov and ra into opposites in a fallen world. In the beginning there are tov as one choice, and tov + ra as the second choice. In a fallen world, there is no such thing as tov or ra, but all tov or tov+ra. Notice how the two trees were named. As humans we live under GOD moving with more yester tov and less tester ra, as Jews say. Yes but the idea is a world of only all tov, and the first tree was, a unfallen world. Your model begins with Eden in a fallen world already. We have tov and ra already. In my model we begin in Eden in a unfallen world, without ra. Only tov.
D: 2- By the will of God – indirectly, by the left hand, the HS created the first archon (Chief Archon) The Chief Archon – arrogantly thought that he was alone (therefore no one else = no God This cause the choshek of Gen 1:2 –
R: Sorry I think I made a goof. Just because GOD creates Creatures and they choose to sin, doesn't make GOD responsible for their sinning.
If God created creatures (archons) and they choose to sin, than the Chief Archon becomes the first sinning creature.
D: 3- Gen 1:3 God gave Light as the salvation of creation, The Archon were hidden within the choshek – this is their realm. The war took seconds – if that long – God wins – no contest The archon are sin – YES! – they are sentenced to Lake of Fire – no option The archon are now waring against man – because they are jealous of man Why are they jealous? – Because God made man after the angels are archon – and gave man a free will choice
R: Interesting.
If God created creatures (archons) and they choose to sin, than the Chief Archon becomes the first sinning creature. How is this any different to the Catholic view you dislike?
You write "angels are archon " Are archons angels?
D: 4- God never does RA directly, or by the right hand – he has a left handed staff to do His will Just as the angel of death obeyed God – just as your satan obeys God – just as all creation obeys God – just as Canaanite tribes were used by God to test Israel over and over – the first thing God did for Eve was to test her So If I do murder using the CIA, as a USA President I am not guilty of ordering the murders? Yeah right?
D: 5- scripture is 100% true and valid – I do not have to skip over any scripture to hold my views – I am also not afraid to study any aspect of scripture – all prophesy will be fulfilled as written
R: You don't like Ezekiel or cherub chata references?
D: 6- RA was created on purpose for a function - For the purpose of making the Glory of God known to all creation – to introduce VIRTUE to creation according to the Kabbalah
We were given a Free Will choice – without RA what is there to choose from a TOV only menu R: If Ra is living with less of God's power, how does it have a purpose?
D:without RA what is there to choose from a TOV only menu?
Choice implies two items on menu, two trees in Garden of Eden. One tree was called tov Other tree called tov+ra NO such thing as a tree of only ra. CHoice menu was created in a unfallen world even.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 12, 2020 15:40:34 GMT -5
I have been waiting for months for you to provide me with an ancient Hebrew source supporting you satan view No ancient Hebrew – no ancient Jew – no Rabbi – ancient or current – agrees No Messianic –Jew that I have studied with – agrees The First Christians of Egypt certainly did not support you view Gnostic do not support your view The only validation for your view of satan = Catholic – on any diluted Protestant childe of it Sorry – couldn’t disagree more – so many false asumptions 1- The Idea that all creation is all about man only is so arrogant -This is a very Catholic There are at least 7 more dimensions / heavens or existence – Gnostic cosmology is so much larger 2- It was Eve that disobeyed God – In Judaism Adam’s sin was that he chose to be with Eve 3- if ra did not exist until after Adam and Eve – then who is your serpent in the garden? 4- if your serpent in the garden is not an agent of ra (because it couldn’t exist yet) then who is the Contest of Gen 3:15 between? 5- ra existed from Gen 1:2 – The GAP – long before earth of Gen 1:9 existed YES! Very Gnostic – then Gen 1:3 happened and the Light pushed all the choshek into the night – a different realm – into chaos Rev 12:8 … and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Gnostic – this is the earth of Gen 1:1 – a larger scale than just this planet formed in Gen 1:9 From the invisible into the visible Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Earth of Gen 1:1 – physical creation Catholicism is one dimensional – at one time they had the earth as the center of the universe – the reality is that we are so alone way out in left field Correction – the HS = God’s Spirit and my God does no RA – he has a staff for that The HS = The Spirit of God – the left hand of God – created the First Archon to serve that function Gnostic literature also tells us why God allowed the creation of – ‘the sum of all chaos’ – so that ’The Glory of God could be revealed throughout all creation’ If there was no choshek in Gen 1:2 – what is the need for the Light of Gen 1:3 And those words – according to the authors of the agl – the First Christians – who were the original Messianic-Jews are: Duh - discussed months ago – remember archon is a colloquial term the Nag Hammadi authors applied to ‘bad-guy angels’ Duh – discussed months ago TOV the movement toward function / RA the movement toward dysfunction - opposites Within man = yeaster tov vrs yester ra = opposites Even within man – yester tov is from God, from heaven, learned and remembered by our soul – we know better Biology gives us Mind-Body that has a self-preservation built into its instinct – yester ra – selfishness – lust for physicacality Job – God ordered the hit – satan carried out the ra / Egypt God ordered the hit – the angel of death carried out the ra It all comes down to whom you praise – to whom you give credit The Gnostic view – By the will of the Father – He allowed the ‘sum of all chaos’ to come about This happen within the first age of creation – day one This first ‘angel/elohiym – heavenly being expressed the very first God-is-not-absolute thought This is the choshek – the first sin that caused the choshek As a result – a separation happened – this angel (now called archon – because he is a bad guy angel) How did this separation occur – a war in heaven(one brief conflict) – Light of Gen 1:3 triumphs Boom – the entire light vrs darkness paradigm is established Gnostic literature also says that after some time – an overseer was asked to volunteer to “oversee the chaos in hades” – is this satan? Is the First Archon satan? Is The deciple Peter satan? = all yes Gnostic literature – this First Archon is the BEAST who has offspring that populate the demonic side of the theology Gnostic view – angels / elohiym are made for a purpose / a function Some are made to Praise – others have specific duties / Gabriel / Michael (Gnostic others that tend the orbits and stars of the cosmos) Gnostic view – and the Jewish view = man can be called the one able to choose – we have the free will choice Angels are in full awareness of God – how can they not praise God Archon are push off in the choshek – cosmos – earth of Gen 1:1 – no longer in awareness Man is the only being trapped by 3D physicality – we should know because we should remember, but we forget because we are dominated by the pain and distraction of physicality – it is within that contest field we are able to choose The Catholic view as you present it God made all the angels with free will and in full awareness of the Lord in heaven Angel in a unfallen condition are complete in GOD. the relationship is complete. They loved to respond. Hence Love movitated the angels. After a million years the relationship seems robotic, but it had choice, and free will. So you are saying 1/3rd of all God's angels were board and chose to rise up against God. Ezk 28 Isa Free Will rebellion against God – an entire ra movement unknown to God – took God by surprise – results in a long exhausting drawn out war that God has not been able to put down to this day The satan of yours had to wait until - Adam sinned – yet the serpent was in the garden before “EVE” sinned Catholic theology speaks of demons but have no source for them – all of satan followers from heaven are all cherubs according to you Catholic theology dwells o much on the fact that a cherub named satan 1- can override God’s plan for creation – change God plan 2- making satan the creator of – all ra – all sin – all lies and to the ancient Sethian gnostics even your satan was the creator of this world because this world is flawed and God can do no wrong or make anything in it with faults 3- Catholic theology spend so much praise upon your satan that when we get to revelation Catholics do not know how to explain the Beast – who is the true devil You keep saying You suppose – you are guessing – their fate is sealed Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 2Pe 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved, Jud 1:6 And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Trapped within the choshek just as Gen 1:2 tells us What a bunch of Sun day school babble One tree = life / One tree = gnosis Either you know better – or you don’t Now we know better and our own yeater ra is exposed – better cover it from the Lord
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 17:34:38 GMT -5
Dave writes:
The Gnostic view – By the will of the Father – He allowed the ‘sum of all chaos’ to come about This happen within the first age of creation – day one This first ‘angel/elohiym – heavenly being expressed the very first God-is-not-absolute thought This is the choshek – the first sin that caused the choshek As a result – a separation happened – this angel (now called archon – because he is a bad guy angel) How did this separation occur – a war in heaven(one brief conflict) – Light of Gen 1:3 triumphs
Rob writes: So the Father allows ra to come about, "He allowed the ‘sum of all chaos’ to come about" the choshek, this bad angel, doing the first sin, now called archon.
Gnostic literature also says that after some time – an overseer was asked to volunteer to “oversee the chaos in hades” ...
this good angel who volunteered is termed Satan, a good angel doing the bad job, of watching to control, the archon, bad angels sinning in Hades.
"Gnostic literature – this First Archon is the BEAST who has offspring that populate the demonic side of the theology"
The first Archon who sinned, the bad angel, is called the Beast, who had offspring that causes demons on the earth?
So your model has
"Beast" who is the first angel who sinned, causing the chaos in hades. Other archon angels also sinned with this Beast. Satan is a good angel volunteering to control the bad angels in hades.
Is this essentially your theory of faith Dave?
Can I have a Bible text to identify who this "beast" word applies to?
One question: Why is Satan an attorney, testing us and Jesus? Why doesn't the Beast do this?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 12, 2020 19:18:26 GMT -5
Absolutely – God created everything for its purpose I am going to quote it again Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; 17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. God is absolute – it is God plan that is unfolding through creation – not your satan’s God is in control – there is nothing out of God’s control – if your satan takes a shit it is because God willed it
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
Word twisting I never said this – the Gnostic literature does not say this – you are word twisting Perhaps this overseer oversees your satan – and he must if any being can be satan – like Peter
Word twisting – your summery doesn’t come close because you read to many assumptions into everything
Beast – who is the First Archon who sinned – true Did the beast cause the chaos – alone? Or is the chaos an accumulation of the whole Other archons also sinned with the beast - - false Either you do not understand English or you just make up this stuff to be argumentative Only one Chief Archon who sinned originally – alone That Archon had offspring that are archon and the ra spread like rust on the car
I have no literature to suggest that it is your satan that becomes the overseer It would seem more correct that the overseer – oversees your satan Because satan is not an independent being – it is any being used to accuse /oppose/ hinder If satan is one individual being – then his name must be Peter – Jesus says so
Is this a theory of faith – what are you talking about This is cosmology – a Kabbalah – that strengthens my faith Because it defines my reality and allows me to see God everywher I look I do not have to get on my knees to realet to God - all i have to do is turn on the news or look out my window - there He is - I see His hand everywhere - this strengtheins my gnosis / my faith But my faith has little – or nothing – to do with the archon or your satan What a Judgmental Catholic thing to say
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 18:34:20 GMT -5
I am sorry, looks like I still do a poor job at defining your theory of faith regarding archons, etc. If you do not detail your own theory, how is anyone supposed to know it fully?
So the first archon, the chief archon, also called the beast, sinned alone, and sinned first. This beast had offspring called other archons (angels) who sinned with him at a later stage.
Having trouble fitting the term "satan" as verb and noun, into your thoughts:
D:"satan is not an independent being – it is any being used to accuse /oppose/ hinder
So you don't technically have a "Satan-Noun-Being-Angel-Beast-Chief Archon" in your theory of faith? Instead the terms refers to any Being who opposes or functions as an opponent? Such beings could have been Peter, God, Baalim and perhaps even the Chief Archon (beast - angel) ?
Dave writes: "Word twisting – your summery doesn’t come close because you read to many assumptions into everything...
Rob writes: "It's very hard to discuss things with you unless you detail your words with lots of thoughts. Over the past few months, I still do not fully understand your thoughts on this topic.
Take for instance the verse here:
Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
You once said, "Satan-Noun-Opponent" is a "good angel doing a bad job" here. But now you say "Satan-Noun-Opponent" can refer to any Being who opposes. So which Being is referred to here in this verse, and as you answer, how can we be absolutely sure which Being it is ?
Since GOD can be an opponent, in some verses, this Hebrew word does not clearly use the term to identify the same Being all the time, so it's as you say a reference to any Being functioning as an opponent. So when and how do we from context identify who the Being was, if it is unnamed?
Mr 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan;
Here is another unnamed Being, an opponent of Jesus, whom is this Being?
So explain to me, using all the contexts there are, how can we arrive at identifying who this unnamed opponent is? And obviously this unnamed Being, cannot be human, because it appears to God in Job, and to Jesus on earth, both verses are referring to divine Beings, so whom do you consider the unnamed Being is?
Another question I have is the Beast , who is an angel archon who sinned first. Explain from Scripture how the BEAST fathers more sinning archons?
Also where is the Hebrew word for BEAST, so I can see its a common identified Being, the chief archon who sinned first, also a angel.
Since this Beast sinned first, and was an angel, how is this any different to this verse?
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Here is a cherub (angel) created by God, did sin for the first time. Does this verse not agree that the first angel who sinned, is the chief archon, as you term the BEAST? Isn't this verse agreeing with you thus far?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 13, 2020 22:34:03 GMT -5
I have told you stories from the Nag Hammadi Quoted passages from the Nag Hammadi I have posted links to the text - both in English and in Coptic Posted kabbalah videos for you to watch - becaue the Gnostic view is very Jewish We have had the exact same discussion for over 6 months Someone is not seriously paying attention YES! This beast reproduced – expanded in number – Yes! No longer called other archons-angel – these creatures are just archon / demons / Jinn elohiym = heavenly / invisible beings The Father +the Trinity + all the angels + all the archon + other unnamed heavenly beings angels are elohiym – the Chief Archon also is an elohiym Except he is a bad-guy angel – therefore called Archon by the First ChristiansHis offspring – bane elohiym – they were never good-guy angels – they are offspring of archon King Solomon tell us that they come in many forms – some hideous – some beautiful – some male and some female Let’s see – how to explain it - "satan is not an independent being – it is any being used to accuse /oppose/ hinder"Peter was a satan to Jesus God was a satan to Balaam If I help you to stumble in your Christian walk – I am your satan All thought the ahl – there are many examples of different satans The serpent – the devil – the beast – Lillith – night shades – demons Many different beings used to accuse/oppose/hinder Eph 6 and Col 1:16 speaks about Powers and Principalities a whole army of satans Satan is a function not an individual being Any being fulfilling that function is called a satan Again – any being serving the role of the accusor / opponent / hinderer = satan Some being chosen by God to serve as satan was called before the Lord The bane elohiym – offspring of the Chief Archon (archon) were also with him how can we be absolutely sure which Being it is – the name is never provided Is this the same being that served as the angel of death? Literature does not say Is this the same being that tempted Jesus in the wilderness – it does not say Is this the prince of Persian that is mentioned in Daniel? – it doesn’t say Example – policeman - must be 100 million policemen on the planet You tell me – what is his name?
Bill may be a patroleman in Australia - Frank is a detective in England - and Earl works vice Germany - Mary and Betty are radio dispatchers - and everyone of them is named - policeman YES! – serving the function as satan – therefore we can call him satan Regardless of the individual policeman that arrest you – you can still just call him policeman The exact same way the Kabbalah says that Adam sired the demons from Lillith What ever happened – happened before Gen 1:4 Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. Catholics spend all their attention on satan – they make it all about satan and his free willThe Chief Archon = the Beast = the serpent = who is also called the devil – and therefore is called satan -- But as we already know – other beings are also called satan as well The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library‘… Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.
This ruler, by being androgynous, made himself a vast realm, an extent without limit. And he contemplated creating offspring for himself, and created for himself seven offspring, androgynous just like their parent. And he said to his offspring, "It is I who am god of the entirety."
And Zoe (Life), the daughter of Pistis Sophia, cried out and said to him, "You are mistaken, Sakla!" – for which the alternative name is Yaltabaoth. She breathed into his face, and her breath became a fiery angel for her; and that angel bound Yaldabaoth and cast him down into Tartaros below the abyss.
… And envy engendered death; and death engendered his offspring and gave each of them charge of its heaven; and all the heavens of chaos became full of their multitudes. But it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being – after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained.’Another flaw of catholic thinking - linear timeBefore the creation story even gets to Gen 1:4 - The gnostics have an entire Gen-Rev aeon unfold The first aeon - the first age - Contest reset (Christians call this the GAP) The second aeon - second age - Adam and Eve - and it is a copy of the first - ends in a Contest reset Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. The third aeon - third age - after the flood of Noah Maybe the fourth aeon - or fourth age = the time of the Gentile? - IMO 2nd Coming - another Reset - New Earth / New Jersulam Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi Library"... And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the worlds that are in the heavens, those in which universal death exists,..."Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: - God did it – God set thee soABSOLUTLY nowhere does this passage imply that it was the Cherub’s FREE WILL choice to defy GodInstead – this passage says – God set thee so – BY DESIGN – God’s design – God WillThe entire theology that angels fell from grace is blastophemy no one fell anywhere - no such thing as a Fallen Angel - it was by the will of GodIsa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; The archon was cast out – into the earth of Gen 1:1 (all physical creation - which also includes this planet earth) therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:Rev 12:7 cast to earth from heaven thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. – Physical creation as in Gen 1:1 Job 2:2 And Jehovah said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. – The Great Contest is now being played out in our realm – and we are added contestants Gen 1:1 - here we are Gen 1:2 - choshek is a foot - Gen 3:15 – Eph 6:12 Gen 1:3 - The Light = Salvation / Saviour - Jn 3:16 Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (one aeon / one age) The same theme payed out in the first age - repeated in the second age - repeated in the third age This is exactly why it is so easy for me to see current Israel just a repeat of the ahlIsrael out numbered and surrounded by other countries that bow to different gods Except - Islam comes along and in 632 all the "other gods' were collected under Allah's rule So today - Israel is out numbered and surrounded by countries that all bow to Allah How does Islam tie into Gnostic literature Islamic paradise has 72 mansion with 72 wives for its elect Gnostic Chief Archon fathered 7 lessor archon (presented here) In additional Gnostic literature - these 7 rulers make 12 rulers under them which make 72 domaines - each with it own ruling archon archon = Jewish and Gnostic bad-guys archons and demons ruling 72 domaines Islamic heaven = 72 mansions for the elect Islam = anti-Christ - major theme - God has no Son When you are on the right track - the pieces simply fit together (J.M.Herndon) The only Judeo-Christian theology that this cosmology does not fit = Catholic Mythology with their free will satan and fallen angels - and what did Gnostic Peter say about the Catholics? The Apocalypse of Peter - The Nag Hammadi Library"For many will accept our teaching in the beginning. And they will turn from them again by the will of the Father of their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e., the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And the guileless, good, pure one they push to the worker of death, and to the kingdom of those who praise Christ in a restoration. And they praise the men of the propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."
"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching. And they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: (those) who stand in (the) strength of the archons, of a man and a naked woman who is manifold and subject to much suffering. And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption."
... And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."Before you again turn the question into - how do I know these texts are inspiredAgain - let me say - I don't know -- I weight text by authorship and theme If God says it - I like it If Jesus says it - I like it If Moses said it - I like it - then ahl and its authors (regardless if they are in the Tanak or talmund) The agl and its authors (regardless if they are inside or outsife of the agl) Way down on the bottom of my list is Rome Are these text on the same level as the Synoptic Gospels - NO However - the agl is not perfect and Luke 2, John 6:4 are very out of sync There are more Bastard texts within the agl - all suspect Test it all and keep the good - means all of it
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Post by Dave on Mar 14, 2020 1:27:43 GMT -5
... And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals." This is exactly why I do not - would ever consider - following the teaching of any human Calvin - Blakley - Moody - Joseph Smith - Charles Russell - or Ellen White Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. Remember - all that I told you - (Jewish and Gnostic = all that I told you in the Womb) Remember - what we have forgotten Everyone believes - deep inside - the truth is just so clouded by all the intelect we arrogantly think we have The earth is flat - wrong Cars will never be able to go faster than 20mph - wrong Aircraft will never break the sound barrier - wrong God is the only Creator - the image of God = Christ - correct Intelect 0 - Spiritual Revelation 1
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Post by Dave on Mar 14, 2020 2:27:38 GMT -5
This ruler, by being androgynous, made himself a vast realm, an extent without limit. And he contemplated creating offspring for himself, and created for himself seven offspring, androgynous just like their parent
Before you say – second creator 1- The weight of this text is not the same as the ahl / agl 2- This text only exist in one fragmented copy – therefore it lacks the marginal readings the ahl/agl have to auto-correct the text –AND- it lacks comparison in translation – is this the best translation? There are no other translation to compare with. 3- Change this word choice to CLONED offspring – and it becomes a science experiment A product of creation not the Creator 4- We know it is not a sexual reproduction – because the Chief Archon = androgynous 5- We know that these offspring were not created from nothing – because that is impossible Even Gen 1:1 begins with a singularity / God / E – which expands into the duality of – heaven / earth – male / female – tov / ra
Personal speculation – just my imagination - for fun
Amoeba – are asexual reproducers – they are androgynous Yet - from one – come many offspring over time
IMO – clone retardation You can make a copy of the parent – plants are easy – animals just recently So far – we are unable to clone an animal clone – because each copy retards
Chief Archon – clones into archon – who clone into demons that are now deformed and ugly Each copy – retards – becomes less than its immediate parent
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2020 16:56:05 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, this is perhaps the best posting so far explaining your view. Others coming to this forum will be able to read clearly what it is you support.
Rob writes: " So the first archon, the chief archon, also called the beast, sinned alone, and sinned first. Dave writes:" YES! Rob writes: " This beast had offspring who sinned with him at a later stage.
Dave writes:" This beast reproduced – expanded in number – Yes! No longer called other archons-angel – these creatures are just archon / demons / Jinn
Dave writes: "
Peter was a satan to Jesus God was a satan to Balaam If I help you to stumble in your Christian walk – I am your satan
All throughout the OT – there are many examples of different satans The serpent – the devil – the beast – Lillith – night shades – demons Many different beings used to accuse/oppose/hinder Eph 6 and Col 1:16 speaks about Powers and Principalities a whole army of satans
Satan is a function not an individual being Any being fulfilling that function is called a satan
Again – any being serving the role of the accuser / opponent / hinderer = satan Some being chosen by God to serve as satan was called before the Lord The bane elohiym – offspring of the Chief Archon (archon) were also with him
how can we be absolutely sure which Being it is – the name is never provided Is this the same being that served as the angel of death? Literature does not say Is this the same being that tempted Jesus in the wilderness – it does not say Is this the prince of Persian that is mentioned in Daniel? – it doesn’t say
Example – policeman - must be 100 million policemen on the planet You tell me – what is his name?
Bill may be a patrolman in Australia - Frank is a detective in England - and Earl works vice Germany - Mary and Betty are radio dispatchers - and everyone of them is named - policeman
Rob replies: OK so the term "satan-noun" refers to any unnamed being functioning as an opposer or opponent. Dave writes: "
The Chief Archon = the Beast = the serpent = who is also called the devil – and therefore is called satan -- But as we already know – other beings are also called satan as well
Rob replies: OK
Dave writes:
"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: - God did it – God set thee so ABSOLUTLY nowhere does this passage imply that it was the Cherub’s FREE WILL choice to defy God - no such thing as a Fallen Angel - it was by the will of God
Rob replies: So you happy that "Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." You seem to agree that this verse refers to the first chief archon, also known as the BEAST, who functioning like "Amoeba – are asexual reproducers – they are androgynous -Yet - from one – come many offspring over time" is able to make copies of itself, other archons, demons, Jinn.
Now lets test this hypothesis as part of Science is to make predictions, based on what you have postulated so far:
These Beings as elohiym as angels as you say, how would we know if free will is demonstrated or not? What could we test from a Being, if it had free will or no?
I doubt you can answer this question, because you claim that the Father created everything, including dysfunction.
The OT verses use this word "ra" to refer to Humans who sin continually. So if humans choose to sin, these beings must have free will, because they sin. So if angels sin, these beings must have free will, because they sin.
I would say, the term "sin" is the only word we can test on unknown beings, if they have free will or not?
Dave writes: "
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: - God did it – God set thee so ABSOLUTLY nowhere does this passage imply that it was the Cherub’s FREE WILL choice to defy God Instead – this passage says – God set thee so – BY DESIGN – God’s design – God Will The entire theology that angels fell from grace is blasphemy no one fell anywhere - no such thing as a Fallen Angel - it was by the will of God
Rob replies: "So the Chief Archon Angel Beast here GOD set to sin by design, is this what you would say Dave?
Than sin is something designed by the Father, and thus the Father is the author, designer and creator of sin??
The problem you create here Dave, is you make something apply for one Being, and not apply for another Being.
No where does Scripture say angels are made as elohiym, can you show me where this is written?
Scripture says humans were made a little lower than elohiym.
SO we have two Beings, "cherub" and "human".
We also postulate that if we see "sin" happen in a Being, it must be because of "Free will", ie they chose to sin. If you say angels are not fallen, thus cannot sin. If angels sin, they have to be fallen.
At least one angel you say, the chief archon (beast) sinned, thus this angel is fallen. Correct?
And this one angel fathered clones like himself, so many other archons? angel like creatures known as demons or Jinn were also made from the Chief Archon.
So this ONE angel sinned, many thousands of clones of itself, who also sin. But the millions of other angels, never sinned, only ONE angel sinned .
SO your war in heaven, is just a few seconds over this chief archon angel who sinned, the Father banished him immediately, so He couldn't do anything else from his sinning? Is that love? Doesn't love take time? more than seconds? If I loved my wife for a few seconds? is that love?
Wouldn't love involve relationships, talking, walking and doing? Wouldn't the Father talk, walk and move with this Chief Archon who first sinned, ask him why are you doing this? What do you want to achieve? Wouldn't the Father spend hundreds hours talking, pleading, crying to this Being, before the sin became fruitful.
How does other angels know what sinning is unless sin make fruit? A few seconds is not long enough.
Scripture lists the fruit of sinning, this takes time. If a person fornicates within, is this sin? No angel can see such things within. It is only a sin to GOD because GOD lives within and without your body.
Most of the sinning we see as Beings is the relationship is does to other Beings, hence the fruit if sinning is what is does to others. This war in heaven you have not considered. You have not thought much about what sin is and how sin is defined.
God measures your missing within, but creatures measure sinning without, they see love acting on others, not the love acting inside of you, they can't see.
I would suspect this war in heaven took years and years, for the fruits of sinning takes time. Some sinning fruits angels never saw, such as killing each other. But I am speculating now, as we don't know.
Why couldn't the Chief Archon had convinced other angels like him, to sin with him?
You stated that the chief archon Beast Angel, sinned first. OK, than doesn't this imply this chief Archon, Beast, Angel must have had free will, in order to sin? or are you saying the sinning was designed by the Father from the beginning? If that is so, how is this any different to humans? Than our sinning was designed by the Father from the beginning, and therefore sinning is a designed feature of GOD.
You often state GOD is testing us, so in our designed state of being born of both yester tov and tester ra, we are to move towards yester tov and disdain the yester ra. OK WHY? Why do we have to move from one to the other, if we are born with both, the Father created and designed both in humans from the beginning?
Just a few thoughts arising from your theory of faith you support Dave. Answer them for me, and later I will apply Scripture verses to your thoughts, once I have established what it is you support. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 16, 2020 5:51:39 GMT -5
Are you made to carry messages from God to His creation? Are you made to tend the orbits and stars? Is it your job to test creation? If everything is created to be the same / act the same / then why are you so different?
Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
YES – multiple beings created to serve in different function – absolutely!
The KJV translates Strong's H430 in the following manner: God (2,346x), god (244x), judge (5x), GOD (1x), goddess (2x), great (2x), mighty (2x), angels (1x), exceeding (1x), God-ward (with H4136) (1x), godly (1x).
אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym, el-o-heem'; plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:—angels, × exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), × (very) great, judges, × mighty.
You can postulate – you can assume – you can even pretend – God sent Noah to Miniva – therefore according to you – originally the only why it could have happened is if was Noah’s free will choice first
Fallen from what? Catholic The Catholic ideas that anyone can fall from God’s grace is blasphemy You can postulate – you can assume – you can even pretend
Cloned – I knew I should have never said it – it was a speculative statement – I know you would twist it back upon me – it is a new word for your word games other angels, never sinned – I said original Here you go twisting – making assumptions - twisting
Banish from heaven to Gen 1:1 earth (physical creation) – now the contest is being played out here
I suspect that you can postulate – you can assume – you can even pretend Only Catholics beileve that God is unable to put down an imaginary revolt Catholic God = weak - Catholic satan strong
There was no one else like him – he was made differently from a different source – for a different function
you can postulate – you can assume – you can imply - you can even pretend The texts say – he was ignorant –he lacked gnosis He was not made in full awareness of the Creator - he lacked gnosis And his first expression proved it
It is so simple Robert – you don’t have to Yester tov reside with your soul – because your soul is from God and was once in full awareness of God Yester ra is a by-product of your animal instinct for self-preservation
You have the free will choice to choose the world over God – go for it
My Faith has zero to do with your satan or my archon My Faith is directed to a higher power
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Post by Dave on Mar 16, 2020 7:28:01 GMT -5
you can postulate – you can assume – you can imply - you can even pretend
You do this so that the verse fits you preconceaved doctrine Ezk 28 clearily says "God set thee so" - only Catholics see a satanic free will choice here
Why - because we are all products of our own backgrounds From long ago you were told this is a free will choice - therefore you need to see it in the text You assume its there so you see it there
Catholic Feel Goodism is flawed God is love. God is Good. God is only tov and can only do tov. and God cannot break His own Commandments.
Can God commit murder? NO a Catholic would say Yet in the end God cast at least three beings and some think many many more into the Lake of Fire - wich is the Second Death.
If I am one of those being terminated by God - why isn't God murdering me? The Catholic cop-out God is just displaying 'Righteous Judgment'
Righteous Judgment or murder - is just a vocabulary word game
We are morally weak humans trapped within a paradigm of choice between two different directions - one toward tov and therefore God - or one away
This is the Gnostic contest It is the Shia Islamic inner Jihad It is the spiritual inner struggle It is our walk with God
The Gospel of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library (69) Jesus said, "Blessed are they who have been persecuted within themselves. It is they who have truly come to know the father.
And counter to Catholic Feel Goodism – the contest just gets harder – ask Job Ask any of the disciples – all were martyred I am soon to experience the biggest test so far – I feel very mortal these days. I am not 20 anymore. I am a perfect candidate for harm from this new corona virus
Will I smile and long for the Lord – or cling to every last breathe in desperation – selfishly not wanting to leave physical behind?
The Apocryphon of James - The Nag Hammadi Library So will you not cease loving the flesh and being afraid of sufferings? … Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before> you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour. … As for you, when you examine death, it will teach you election. Verily, I say unto you, none of those who fear death will be saved; for the kingdom belongs to those who put themselves to death.
This is reality - this is life - choose God or not God has supplies man with all the information necessary to make an informed choice God has also supplied a physicality reality that makes the choice more complicated The archon are here to test creation - they also test us - by tempting us They cannot make you do anything - they just make the ra choice look seductive and desirable Sex, money, and Rock-n-Roll Baby, fame, and power within the human realm
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.
The Baptist want me to be afraid of Hell – so I better believe The Pentecost says – if I haven’t spoken in tongues I’m not getting in Most of the other ‘christians’ just tell me to turn it over to the Lord – and all will be well What a bunch of man-made religious dogma
Reality speaks to a different truth – life is hard Job and it is going to get harder The Gnostic Contest is simple practicality / practical reality There is no one on the planet that cannot relate to its message Zoraster instructions to his followers – “In all things choose right” – but the Christians call him a pagan The Jews say choose Mitzvah – which is always a tov choice
But - as you point out - you do not have to choose anything (which is actually a choice isnt it)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2020 14:13:57 GMT -5
In your reply here Dave, you didn't answer some of the tougher questions, only brushed them aside.
I asked you for a Bible text where angels are elohiym. There isn't one. If the chief archon sinned as an angel, but was developed from a different source, your concept of multiply beings have different functions, they since all the angels are indeed of the some kind, yet some how, they are so different, one angel who sins cannot convince another angel of the same kind to sin also? That's strange. We have something similar in the Indian cast system, where a lower cast is not allowed to witness to a higher cast, yet they are all of the human kind. Isn't this just a man made dogma, not a natural thing?
How would you define chata Dave? To me the term mean to miss. To be found missing. Missing what? Missing relationship with GOD.
You would say, sin is a state of being, since we have tov already in us from birth, and a byproduct of creation, the animal beast of ra also from birth. Sin is just the mind that does not choose tov, but rather chooses ra, which is already in us. I would not agree with this.
To me, chata is about missing relationship. We are without sin, thus are fully connected to GOD in relationship from conception. Some of us have inherited epigenetics (a Hebrew word called aven, or propensities) and this causes the ra or missing from God, if we allow our mind to wander from GOD. To me the fight of faith is about choosing relationship, or not choosing relationship.
Dave: "YES – multiple beings created to serve in different function – absolutely!
I thought the chief Archon was an angel, other angels are angels, so why couldn't the Chief Archon cause other angels to sin? Because they are of another function, and like robotic angels cannot do any else they are not programmed to do? Is that it?
SO GOD designed sin to be a state of being, a programmed response. Nothing to do with free will choice. So humans don't have free will either? All we have is the power to choose tov or follow our animals powers of ra? I suppose that is a choice, but it's not free will is it? It's not a relationship, it's a condition or state of being.
Tell me these choices I do everyday, they are not motivated by love are they? Only because the commandments say I must do them? I have tov and ra already in me, God is both love and hate (and even does Murder according to you), I better be careful of GOD, because if I don't, God will murder me? Isn't this a fear response?
I thought all living comes from GOD, so if the atoms are alive and able to speak, do they speak because they are programmed to speak or do I allow them to have freedom of relationship? Which is it Dave, a program robotic response to serve, multiply beings with multiply functions only, OR a relationship that is independent of GOD. Sure GOD keeps the organism alive, but that's all, the organism is allowed to do anything it wants independently from GOD.
If you choose "a program robotic response to serve, multiply beings with multiply functions only" sin is just a program response, a design from the Father. In that case why did Jesus have to die? You never answer that question...
If you choose "relationship that is independent of GOD" that sin or missing, is a relationship that chooses NOT God, and therefore by definition chooses death. The reason why it doesn't die immediately is because love does not kill. SO are all the wicked going to live forever in eternity? No, because as GOD's love floods over them once more after they know all things of God and what they chose, they feel the love (burning) and the response of GOD fully as a burning can only be this over them. The redeemed are fireproof, the wicked are not, we live forever with GOD in a continual burning of love (Hebrew word for burning is seraph) and we do not burn up.
Why did Jesus have to die? Because when a Being caused a relationship to go away from GOD, this missing, causes all humans born on earth to have a different ruler ruling over them, hence a relationship change. (Nothing to do with tov or ra) It all about the ruler who rules over us. In other words relationship powers. The fruit of relationions powers is either tov (GOD) or ra (lack of GOD).
Your saying GOD is absolute and controls everything. Not so. God cannot control relationships, indeed this would not be love. For example, relationship can lie. Relationship can cheat. Relationship can deceive. God cannot do any of these things.
God is always honest with you, God is always loving you. However GOD is smart enough to predict relationship responses in you before your even born, I find this amazing as a fact in Scripture, so GOD is all knowing, but if relationship exists in heaven and on earth, relationship's have to be based on free will, the right to choose.
Dave: "We are morally weak humans trapped within a paradigm of choice between two different directions - one toward tov and therefore God - or one away
This is the Gnostic contest
Isn't this a word game also you pay Dave? It's the same thing I also support.
We are morally weak humans trapped within a paradigm of choice between two different relationships - one toward tov and therefore God - or one away
This is the Christian contest.
You choose directions, as if sin means a state of being. I choose relationships, because sin means missing GOD, therefore choosing another ruler ruling over us.
Many have pictures of one road branching into two paths, you walk to choose.
I would have there is one path, but there is another ruler calling out to you to have a relationship with him, so you wander off the path.
Your chief archon angel sinned as a functional design by the Father, hence this is not a relationship but a design. Hence you have two directions (both designed by the Father) but the Father wants you to choose one direction over the other (no reason given) only because the Father says so.
My theory has relationship, and thus rulers of relationship. Sin is the result of relationship gone wrong, and hence rulers of bad relationships. The first angel who sinned developed a bad relationship on his own (sin is not explained in Scripture). Self, Baal are terms to describe powers within humans and angels as a result of sin, ie missing out on God's powers in their lives. Thus the beings become like elohiym, they are gods on their own. I would not call them elohiym or Creators, but they think they are creators and they think they are elohiym. Can a creature become divine? Only elohiym is divine, creatures are not divine. There is a difference.
Bible says choose you day whom you will serve.
SO define chata for me Dave, this concept of miss.
The Father creates tov and animal beast ra in me from birth, so what's missing? Nothing? Why have two trees in the Garden then?
I am you Saviour, have no other Saviour but me. So explain missing here?
If you have another Saviour, tis implies you are either god yourself, or following another Being as god? SO missing means your missing the divine GOD in relationship, because your following a creature god instead.
The word "saviour" both verb and noun, means to rescue, but rescue from what?
Mat 1:21 says a Yashuah would yasha people from chaatah.
This means the people are missing. If I already have tov and ra in me from design, I am not really missing anything from birth, only choosing tov more and disdaining ra more. Missing might mean to you all those times you chose ra rather than tov.. Fair enough. But where did the original ra come from? God you say. OK so my missing is designed by GOD and my choosing GOD is also designed by GOD, so where's the motivation to follow Him, if GOD created both?
I suppose Mary loved much because she was forgiven much, hence she felt more missing. That is OK, but doesn't explain the first missing she was born with, only the daily missing she does daily. Maybe the fact Adam or Eve first sinned means not much to you? Maybe the first chief archon who sinned means not much to you?
Doesn't sinning mean your following the chief archon and his ways as a ruler? Isn't the chief archon your Satan, who opposes GOD?
And yet the Father created the chief archon to sin? wow. so sin is a designed function from the Father? Please explain your origin of sin?
To me, scripture doesn't explain the origin of sin, its just a relationship that goes wrong.
If the Father creates angels, and one angel chooses to sin and becomes the Chief Archon, how is this any different to my theory?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 16, 2020 22:33:26 GMT -5
207 verses found on e-Sword search for ‘gods’ (H430 – elohiym)
Jos 22:22 The LORD God (H410) of gods (H430), the LORD God (H410) of gods (H430), he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; - el of the elohiym – the singular of the plural repeated
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods (H430) before me. - ‘other gods’ a commandment
Jdg 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods (H430) shall be a snare unto you. – ‘other gods’ that snare you
Who are these ‘other gods’? = (H430) elohiym – Baal, Molech, Tammuz, Isthar, Dogan, = all archon Bane elohiym – sons of elohiym ‘other gods’ = archon
Twisting words and making false assumptions –
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
God ordered the death of all the first born in Egypt Some are terminated in a second death – death of spirit – by God in the end Tell me why this is not murder? Can you?
1- so that He suffered each and everything you and me and all mortal will – death 2- IT IS NOT ABOUT A HUMAN SACRIFICE – Jesus dies – so that He could return – IT IS THE RESURECTION Proving to all that there is a real after life – and our conduct here matters
Already had this conversation months ago – use the search menue
My Chief Archon can be called a satan – that is true My Chief Archon opposes creation – NOT GOD (who can oppose God -?)
Thank God for it = Praise God for it – Praise God for the archon and satan Because of them – we can demonstrate our virtue in full view of the Lord Without being tested – how can there be a demonstration of obedience?
No angel ever choose anything Your Ezk 28 = God set thee so – God’s plan – God’s will
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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Post by Dave on Mar 17, 2020 10:33:11 GMT -5
Already had this conversation months ago – use the search menue Sorry for my frustration חָטָא - H2398 – chata - A primitive root; properly to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn: - bear the blame, cleanse, commit [sin], by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend (-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin (-ful, -ness), trespassive You say miss I see chata as sin (not choice) – so I ask you, ‘miss what’ – then you’ll say ‘miss relationship’ I am not a linguist – I can only speak to what these terms mean to me First definition – Free Will has nothing to do with the shoes I buy – it ONLY has to do with man’s FREE WILL CHOICE to seek God or not. In all things the choice is God or not. Second definition – ‘not God’ = Choshek - first there was Gen 1:1 then 1:2 Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. choshek is a by-product – a consequence of creation What is choshek Definition 3 – Light Gen 1:3 – God, Christ, salvation from the choshek Definition 4 = mitzvah - keeping with the law – keeping Torah – choosing God Man is a special creation – we are beings that chose – we have the Free Will choice We can choose mitzvah – and move in the direction of function TOV by choosing Light, (God, Christ) We can choose chata (sin) – and move in the direction of RA by choosing choshek (darkness, deception, anti-Christ) Gen 1:1-3 = the Torah and Gospel – it is that simple mitzvah - keeping with the law – keeping Torah – choosing to obey God Obey what? - the mission to remember what we once knew and Seek ye first the Kingdom of God - and along the way - love one another as Chtist loves us Allow our yester tov, of our soul, to be the Light of God in this corporeal world - to be a Christ to our fellow souljourners by helping them to remember We can choose chata (sin) – and move in the direction of RA by choosing choshek (darkness, deception, anti-Christ) - ignorance - forgetting God - disregarding God - not Seeking the Kingdom of God Allowing the lust of our yester ra, of our Mind-Body, to drown out the spiritual reality and our place within it
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Post by Dave on Mar 17, 2020 12:06:42 GMT -5
Gnostic – to be a Christ – meaning/ definition Jesus said to Peter – get behind me satan – here satan (verb) is a function not the person My Mother led me to The Christ – she was my Christ (verb) – Catholic would call her my intercessor It is just vocabulary - The Hypostasis of the Archons (The Reality of the Rulers) - The Nag Hammadi LibraryMoreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit. ponderingconfusion.com/papers.php?id=astronauts"The Archons cast a trance over Adam which caused him to be sleepy, but it was his perception they dulled ... They make our hearts heavy that we may not pay attention and may not see. So we loose the reflection of the Divine Light within us ... The Archons burden the soul, attracting us to works of evil, and pull us down into oblivion, make us forget who we are. (The Apocrypha of John II 22: 14-10, though 27-20.)" Forget who we are? – Who are we? = children of God created in spirit, in heaven, in full awareness of the lord – but born into a carnal animal named man. Trapped within this animal – our souls yearn to remember what they already gnosis to be true No one has to really tell us what is right and wrong – deep inside our soul reminds us No one really has to be convinced of an intelligent design – deep inside we gnosis Gen 1:1 Psalms 19:1 - Romans 1:20 ChurchI have sat in several endless Bible Studies trapped in the circular discussion of John 1:1-4. No one gets its – it is it totally existential – and most folk are unable to think abstractly IMO – no one will ever find the Lord by understanding John 1:1-4 But – once you find the Lord – John 1:1-4 just becomes clear When you are on the right track – the pieces simply fit together (J.M. Herndon)
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