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Post by Dave on Jan 12, 2020 7:12:52 GMT -5
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Rev 20:14 … the lake of fire. This is the second deathHell – Catholic Encyclopediawww.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htmHell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death. Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell: 1- hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men; 2- the limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment; 3- the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam; 4- purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven. (Wiki) Christendom’s views on Hades/Hellen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_HadesIn English usage the word "Hades" first appears around 1600, as a transliteration of the Greek word "ᾅδης" in the line in the Apostles' Creed, "He descended into hell", the place of waiting (the place of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) into which Jesus is there affirmed to have gone after the Crucifixion. Old Testament In the Septuagint (an ancient translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek), the Greek term ᾅδης (Hades) is used to translate the Hebrew term שאול (Sheol) in, for example, Isaiah 38:18.[1] New Testament In New Testament Greek, the Hebrew phrase "לא־תעזב נפשׁי לשׁאול" (you will not abandon my soul to Sheol) in Psalm 16:10 is quoted in Acts 2:27 as "οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου" (you will not abandon my soul to Hades). In the Textus Receptus version of the New Testament, on which the English King James Version is based, the word "ᾅδης" (Hades), appears 11 times;[2] but critical editions of the text of 1 Corinthians 15:55 have "θάνατος" (death) in place of "ᾅδης".[3] Except in this verse of 1 Corinthians, where it uses "grave", the King James Version translates "ᾅδης" as "hell". Modern translations, for which there are only 10 instances of the word "ᾅδης" in the New Testament, generally transliterate it as "Hades". What did the English word hell originally mean in English?christianityoriginal.com/mp/index.php/hell/historyOriginally, the word hell simply meant to conceal, to hide, to cover. In old English literature, we see: the helling of potatoes - hiding potatoes in pits (still used commonly in England / Ireland) the helling of a house – covering/thatching a house So it was an apt word to label the grave where the dead are hidden. But as the church started mixing pagan theories, it started being associatedWhat did the word Hades mean in Greek?ᾅδης - G86 - hadēs, Strong’s - From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, In ancient Greece – all dead entered Hades – the realm of the unseen Hades was not a Good place or a Bad Place – it was just the place for the dead A place for people – that are no longer seen living in the realm of the unseen The Greeks do have a bad plave with Hades called Tartarus In Judaism – sheol is not a Bad Place – all Jews go to shoel The Jews do have a Bad Place within sheol called Gehenna ConclusionHades / Hell / Sheol – is simply the real we cannot see Tartarus and Gehenna – are Bad localities within Hades / Hell / Sheol Question – why doesn’t Christendom know the difference? Question – why does Christian hell look like the Fiction Novel Dantes Infernal (which is the – Divine Comedy) – and does not reflect the true meaning of the Torah Answer – Roman Edit – and all Christians are conditioned / trained / brainwashed to be confused
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 12:56:37 GMT -5
In Judaism – sheol is not a Bad Place – all Jews go to shoel The Jews do have a Bad Place within sheol called Gehenna
Shaowl is a word meaning "hidden, a place unknown"
Question – why doesn’t Christendom know the difference?
Answer this question for me? I don't see it as a major big deal?
You didn't comment upon my texts, so presenting new material is NOT how discussions work. You present historical accounts on the word. I don't consider this. The word is defined only in the Bible, not from historical accounts.
If you want to study "shaowl" just collect all the texts OT and NT and read them.
There are 63 verses in the OT for instance. The term is about death, grave, where our nephesh goes to on death, etc.
Jeff Benner lists the ancient Hebrew letters which read "The pressing strong secured authority". And suggests to me a place when GOD presses us strongly and securely. A place where everything ceases to exist.
Roman Edit – and all Christians are conditioned / trained / brainwashed to be confused
The translations are fuzzy, but I don't see Roman edit, just traditions and precepts of men taking over the Scripture. For example "purgatory" was a common Greek myth, even Jesus used this, to make a point. Just because traditions and precepts of men invade Scripture, does not make Scripture spoiled. You just have to read the "word" across all the contexts, and make you guide from the Bible alone.
Does the OT shaowl speak of "purgatory" ? no, it came in as a Greek idea? Does the soul wander in torment upon death? No, Scripture says in death, all things stop.
You have to stop looking up historical accounts and other literature to support an idea you want, all I do is use Scripture only. Gather all the verses on a topic and read only them. And as we have done already, if there are few verses, the topic is not considered important.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 12, 2020 23:53:28 GMT -5
In Judaism – sheol is not a Bad Place – all Jews go to shoel The Jews do have a Bad Place within sheol called GehennaQuestion – why doesn’t Christendom know the difference? Shaowl is a word meaning "hidden, a place unknown" – Correct – Hades – “the unseen”Answer this question for me? I don't see it as a major big deal?Hell appears in the KJV 31 times 30 times it should be translated as Hades – the land of / realm of / place of the unseen, Only once does it translated as Tartarus – a bad place for the archon of Gen 6 Yet whenever a Catholic speaks of hell they mean - Dante’s Infernal Entire Christendom denominations preach the burning in hell ‘Believe or you will burn in hell for all eternity – meaning there is no second death False doctrine See how important it is to know the truthPROVE to me that the Greeks thought a person could earn their way out of Tartarus (Bad locality) into Hades where the rest of the dead dwell No – my friend – it is in no way Greek It is 100% Jewish from the ahl (Wiki) Purgatory - While use of the word "purgatory" (in Latin purgatorium) as a noun appeared perhaps only between 1160 and 1180, giving rise to the idea of purgatory as a place[21] (what Jacques Le Goff called the "birth" of purgatory),[22] the Roman Catholic tradition of purgatory as a transitional condition has a history that dates back, even before Jesus Christ, to the worldwide practice of caring for the dead and praying for them and to the belief, found also in Judaism,[23] which is considered the precursor of Christianity, that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification I love this statement - the Roman Catholic tradition of purgatory as a transitional condition has a history that dates back, even before Jesus Christ, - how can there be Roman catholic anything before Jesus Christ Answer = found also in Judaism,[23] which is considered the precursor of Christianity, that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification … In Judaism, Gehenna is a place of purification where, according to some traditions, most sinners spend up to a year before release. "Sitting" shiva. "Sitting" shiva refers to the act of sitting on low stools during times of mourning. As mentioned in the Book of Job, upon mourning, Job's friends "sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights". After the intense period of shiva, which is mainly contained to the home, sheloshim allows individuals to leave their residences and begin to interact with others again. the final stage, yahrzeit or yizkor, the twelve month period of mourning ceases and yearly remembrance ceremonies are held for the individual who had died Jewish purgatory is 12 months long – all from the ahl – 100% Jewish – 0% Greek You say - Not Roman Edit – just Roman traditions and precepts taking over scripture to present a false narrative I say 100% Roman Edit resulting in a false theology that leads man nowhere except back to church Facts are facts regardless of their origin Why would anyone who believes that God is the Creator would be afraid to see God in that creation You are a detective – someone just committed a murder There are many witnesses to the murder – yet you claim that you only need to question one source You are a scientist investigating an unknown You have much data – but you separate out only anything that does not support the catholic only view Any investigator that will not look at all the evidence – is not a true seekerIf you only look at one view – you only reinforce and validate that view for yourself If you throw out data –and don’t consider it – your conclusions can only be skewed If you only look at Catholic information you reinforce the Catholic view point – why because Rome is the authority you use to validate RomeGnostics are NOT AFRAID to look at any of creation – why – because God is there to be seen for who He is I look again – I try my best to address every comment I looked - ? - new material? Tell me again
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 13:29:53 GMT -5
You raise some interesting points Dave
Since the Bible is GOD's book, ie Hebrew torah, shouldn't we only seek the Hebrew for answers?
So where in the Hebrew OT does it speak of purgatory if it's Jewish? I not see this in the OT? verses please? there are NOT any?
If you say you can use Talmud and kabbalah , why does the Hebrew say you can't?
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
SO the unlearned learn off the Rabbi, is that it? Scripture says no. Let torah alone teach you, sola scriptoria.
SO if purgatory is Jewish, where is it in the OT? verses please?
I do seek all the evidence, as Scripture says to, line upon line, verse upon verse, but only from the Hebrew...
"Sitting" shiva. "Sitting" shiva refers to the act of sitting on low stools during times of mourning. As mentioned in the Book of Job, upon mourning, Job's friends "sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights".
And the verse is? And what does the word you propose mean?
In Judaism, Gehenna is a place of purification where, according to some traditions, most sinners spend up to a year before release.
And this is in the OT in which verse?
What did Jesus think of Jewish traditions and precepts of men? Jesus was Hebrew, but He did NOT act like a Jew in his day? Why not? Remember that when you answer these questions...
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 14, 2020 1:48:27 GMT -5
1- In Eruvin 19b, we are told that all but the most wicked are sent to Gehenom (a fiery place, according to Berakhot 57b), but their stay in the flames is temporary. After being purged of their sins, they are ushered to Heaven by Abraham. Elsewhere (Rosh Hashanah 17a), the torments of Hell are said to be temporary for most sinners - but instead of ending in Heaven, they end in nonexistence. www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/266275/jewish/Death-&-Mourning.htmwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/death-and-mourning-in-judaismwww.haaretz.com/jewish/a-guide-to-jewish-death-and-mourning-rituals-1.5391768www.shiva.com/learning-center/resources/psalms/2- Talmud is Jewish Scripture – the Kabbalah is a commentaryJewish Hebrew Torah and Catholic Greek sola scriptoria are not the same text Catholic OT is not Hebrew ScripturesList of Hebrew Scriptures here - www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/holy-scriptures-of-judaismReference Canonization The Written Law The Oral Law Ethics of the Fathers (Pirkei Avot) The Shulkhan Arukh Torah Bereishit (Genesis) Shemot (Exodus) Vayikra (Leviticus) Bamidbar (Numbers) D'varim (Deuteronomy) Prophets/Nevi'im Overview The List of Prophets Joshua Judges I Samuel II Samuel I Kings II Kings Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel Twelve Prophets Writings/Ketuvim Psalms Proverbs Job Song of Songs Ruth Lamentations Ecclesiastes Esther Daniel Ezra Nehemiah I Chronicles II Chronicles Talmud/Mishna Babylonian Talmud Jerusalem Talmud Bava Mezia Bezah Horayot Ma’aserot Ma’aser Sheni Makhshirin Makkot Mikva’ot Mo’ed Mo’ed Katan Nedarim Oholot Orlah Parah Pesahim Nashim Nazir Nega'im Nezikin Niddah Pe’ah Rosh Ha-Shanah Shabbat Shekalim Shevu’ot Soferim Sotah Ta’anit Tamid Terumot Tohorot Midrash/Aggadatah Overview Baraita and Tosefta Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha Midrash Aseret Ha-Dibberot Midrash Ha-Gadol Midrashim, Smaller Midrash Lekah Tov Midrash Proverbs or Aggadat Proverbs Midrash Samuel Midrash Tehillim Midrash Va-Yissa’u Midreshei Halakhah Ruth Rabbah Pesikta de-Rav Kahana Pesikta Rabbati Song of Songs Rabbah Yalkut (ha-) Makhiri Yalkut Shim While the Catholic Greek sola scriptoria= 100% Rome – 100% Greek text not HebrewCorrection – you only seek Catholic Canon written in Greek and edited by Rome You dismiss, ignore, or Mock the bulk of Judaism You dismiss, ignore, or Mock the bulk of Roman record keeping You dismiss, ignore, or Mock the bulk scientific evidence (Moon landing? – what’s next Flat Earth?) You dismiss, ignore, or Mock the bulk of your own sola scriptoria – because two word of one verse in Ezk over ride it
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 13:30:31 GMT -5
I see, so all these references have to have perfect harmony with all the other references, 100% of the time, otherwise their is no light of dawn in them? The Written Law The Oral Law Ethics of the Fathers (Pirkei Avot) The Shulkhan Arukh Torah Bereishit (Genesis) Shemot (Exodus) Vayikra (Leviticus) Bamidbar (Numbers) D'varim (Deuteronomy) Prophets/Nevi'im Overview The List of Prophets Joshua Judges I Samuel II Samuel I Kings II Kings Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel Twelve Prophets Writings/Ketuvim Psalms Proverbs Job Song of Songs Ruth Lamentations Ecclesiastes Esther Daniel Ezra Nehemiah I Chronicles II Chronicles Talmud/Mishna Babylonian Talmud Jerusalem Talmud Bava Mezia Bezah Horayot Ma’aserot Ma’aser Sheni Makhshirin Makkot Mikva’ot Mo’ed Mo’ed Katan Nedarim Oholot Orlah Parah Pesahim Nashim Nazir Nega'im Nezikin Niddah Pe’ah Rosh Ha-Shanah Shabbat Shekalim Shevu’ot Soferim Sotah Ta’anit Tamid Terumot Tohorot Midrash/Aggadatah Overview Baraita and Tosefta Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha Midrash Aseret Ha-Dibberot Midrash Ha-Gadol Midrashim, Smaller Midrash Lekah Tov Midrash Proverbs or Aggadat Proverbs Midrash Samuel Midrash Tehillim Midrash Va-Yissa’u Midreshei Halakhah Ruth Rabbah Pesikta de-Rav Kahana Pesikta Rabbati Song of Songs Rabbah Yalkut (ha-) Makhiri Yalkut Shim A few dozen errors and inconsistences throws out your so called holy bible. "The self is the soul, not the body. The body will inevitably fail and The soul is eternal and indestructible disintegrate; the soul is eternal and indestructible. " www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282496/jewish/How-Jews-Approach-Death.htmHere the writing makes soul the same as ruwach. Dust + ruwach become nephesh. My holy smaller Hebrew Bible says. The soul of the person we knew and loved as a physical being on this earth continues to exist after his or her death, continues to be aware of that which transpires in our lives, and continues to be the recipient of our love and the positive actions we do on his or her behalf. Absolutely not. Where does Scripture make this claim? It doesn't. Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (KJV) We have no control over the Holy Spirit in us, when we die, the Holy Spirit just returns to GOD at our death. If I ignore the bulk of your larger bible, it's because it's full or errors. Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: So what would be the precepts of men? Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. What would these be, Jesus spoke about? Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. (KJV) Or this? Jesus was a Jew, but He didn't act Jewish, He acted Hebrew, is their a difference? Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 13:42:25 GMT -5
What Happens After Death?
By Shlomo Yaffe and Yanki Tauber
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/388/praying-spirit?page=9&scrollTo=3307
The Soul and Heaven in Judaism
One of the fundamental beliefs of Judaism is that life does not begin with birth, nor does it end with death. This is articulated in the verse in Kohelet (Ecclesiastes), “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to G‑d, who gave it.”1
The Lubavitcher Rebbe would often point out that a basic law of physics (known as the First Law of Thermodynamics) is that no energy is ever “lost” or destroyed; it only assumes another form. If such is the case with physical energy, how much more so a spiritual entity such as the soul, whose existence is not limited by time, space, or any of the other delineators of the physical state. Certainly, the spiritual energy that in the human being is the source of sight and hearing, emotion and intellect, will and consciousness does not cease to exist merely because the physical body has ceased to function; rather, it passes from one form of existence (physical life as expressed and acted via the body) to a higher, exclusively spiritual form of existence.
While there are numerous stations in a soul’s journey, these can generally be grouped into four general phases: i.the wholly spiritual existence of the soul before it enters the body; ii.physical life; iii.post-physical life in Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden,” also called “Heaven” and “Paradise”); iv.the “world to come” (olam haba) that follows the resurrection of the dead.
What are these four phases, and why are all four necessary?
Here is a Jewish tradition, they see ruwach as your soul that enters the dust, and leaves the dust, the "you" in your living.
Is this a correct understanding of "spirit" or "ruach" NO.
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
Plain and simple, ignored by Jews.
You cannot control the Holy Spirit on the day of your death.
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Post by Dave on Jan 14, 2020 19:08:47 GMT -5
Here is a Jewish tradition, they see ruwach as your soul that enters the dust, and leaves the dust, the "you" in your living. Is this a correct understanding of "spirit" or "ruach" NO. Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:Soul is a thing - and it is eternal Spirit is the projestion of your soul through a distance Ec 8:8 when you die no man can retain his spirit Yes! This is what Judaism says - the spirit goes to dust along with Mind-Body This is what Ec 8:8 says This is what Judaisms says Yet you make them disaree - you have to go out of your way tp make them dissagree
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Post by Dave on Jan 14, 2020 19:30:28 GMT -5
I see, so all these references have to have perfect harmony with all the other references, 100% of the time, otherwise their is no light of dawn in them? A few dozen errors and inconsistences throws out your so called holy bible. I am sorry if you are upset that the Jews don’t go out and purchase a Catholic OT I am afraid their heritage is so much richer than just Rome’s authority Speaking of Rome’s authority – when are you going to discuss Luke vrs Mathew They do not line up word for your / line for line – which one do you discard? How about factual errors between the Book of Acts and the Catholic OT Which one would you discard – The Book of Acts or the Catholic OT Or are discrepancies within agl allowable since Rome says they are OK The Soul is eternal and existed before our birth and will continue to exist after our mortal death Ec 8:8 is speakd of your spirit – not the same apples vrs oranges 1st Samuel Chapter 28 – Should we rip it out of the Tanak because you say so? Yes – Mind-Body goes to dust The difference between being a religious Jew or Christian vrs a Practicing Jew - DUH
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 13:03:52 GMT -5
The Luke and Mathew thing, refers to the census thing, if I remember, your vague with details. It not so much about error in words, but error so called over message. How do we know if there were not two censors, a little one in 4 BC and another one 4 AD, ? Also I remember reading in my Creation Science mag about this, Jonathan Sarfeti says, the Roman governor ruled once in 4 BC and went away and came back again to rule in 4 AD, and Luke reflects this. Again all this is over the message, not the words. I suggest we just don't know for sure, but you go all the way to say the smaller Hebrew Bible is corrupt and not trustworthy. Second you raise a strange notion in Scripture, God often meets wicked people where they are in their wickedness and confusion they are in. And rescues them from their confusion. God's holy Bible book is not solely presenting truth all the time for wicked people to reach up to, for it says "while we were yet sinners Jesus came down from heaven and rescued us" This implies the smaller Hebrew Bible deals with wickedness and wicked false ideas, presenting them as they read, so we have comfort in coming into the light. How do we discern truth from non-truth in the smaller Hebrew Bible? Line upon line, verse upon verse, until all the verses agree. OK notice 1Sa 28:15 ¶ And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. The message tells you, its for wicked people, GOD no longer speaks to Saul, so Saul expects Samuel to speak this wickedness of Saul? Does this mean GOD resurrected Samuel? I don't know. Its a rare example of something, wicked people do when they want answers, they seek familiar spirits? Should a righteous person do this? No Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Notice both matters are side by side. What is the difference between these messages? wicked people and straight people. GOD is saying read the smaller Hebrew Bible in a correct manner. How do we read our smaller Hebrew Bible in a correct manner? Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:Read Hebrew word upon Hebrew word, ,verse by verse, here in the OT, there in the NT, until you find all the harmony as truth. Easy really. You want other examples of truth written for wicked people? Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. The first of the ten commandments has the word ' Egypt" in it? SO the moral law begins in wickedness and starts from their. Once your saved by Jesus, the first of the moral laws change to a deeper experience: Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Notice the older commandment law is written, and the new deeper meanings added to it. So for the righteous person in Jesus, the first moral law reads" I am your Saviour, Be humble not proud. From this example we could read all the ten commandments at a deeper level, since Jesus came to witness to our Father. The point of all this is to show you, Scripture cannot contradict each other. If you don't read all the lines upon lines, and pick and choose to read, you can read whatever wicked ideas from Scripture simply by ignoring other verses. Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (KJV) Yes – Mind-Body goes to dustDave your implying the Mind-Spirit is ruwach ? correct? Again your not lining up all that the verses teach, you just choosing what you want. Ruwach is the Holy Spirit, not some entity you can control.. Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:Dave your words are confusing: please clarify? "Soul is a thing - and it is eternal Spirit is the projection of your soul through a distance
Ec 8:8 when you die no man can retain his spirit Yes! This is what Judaism says - the spirit goes to dust along with Mind-Body
This is what Ec 8:8 says This is what Judaisms says Yet you make them disagree - you have to go out of your way to make them disagree"???what are you talking about? ?? OK what is this statement than? ...rather, it passes from one form of existence (physical life as expressed and acted via the body) to a higher, exclusively spiritual form of existence."I think you are confused. Jews see the ruwach as a part of themselves that returns to GOD to some higher exclusively spiritual form of existence. I would disagree with this. The Holy Spirit is an administrator of living, comes into every living thing with breath, and actually makes the dust into a living thing. The administrator also records your character, so you have a permanent record before GOD, so when you cease at death, you can be raised to living again in the same way before you died. So when you die, your character returns to GOD, and the Holy Spirit retains this information, until your are required to come back to living again. The only thing eternal as a Being in all this is the Holy Spirit, not you, or your character records that make you, you. Now if you want we can place all the verses on this idea in one place and read the understanding as I have, or you can read bits and pieces, ignoring other texts, as others do. The administration idea: Job 33:4 The "Holy Spirit" of "Strong Authority" hath made me, and the breath of the "Shadday" hath given me "ongoing-life".
Ro 8:16 The Holy Spirit itself beareth witness with our Holy Spirit, that we are the children of God:Such texts only make sense if we see the Holy Spirit as an Administrator of GOD's power in us, including the "breath of life", in Hebrew "Holy Spirit chay". We also should ask the question, why aren't all those Jewish books, the larger Hebrew Bible, in our smaller Hebrew Bible? Why was the Hebrew literature cut down? Does the dead Sea Scrolls have all those books you speak of Dave? Show me all the larger Hebrew Bible as a collection was copied in Dead Sea Scrolls? All the smaller Hebrew Bible were (except possible Ruth??) , except Revelation by AD 55, so this editing thing has nothing to do with Rome. Rome came after AD 55 ... Some me your research the larger Hebrew Bible should be studied as holy books? Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 13:53:02 GMT -5
Just having a look at Don Patton video again on Dead Sea Scrolls
1/2 of scrolls has called weird books, your Gnostic stuff I suppose?
1/4 is secular stuff
1/4 All Bible, as we know it, all book except Ester.
12 books in Paleo Hebrew, a Hebrew before the exile.
Over to you, to respond that dead sea scrolls also had all of the larger Jewish Bible, and copied...
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 16, 2020 9:21:57 GMT -5
If we are to do a line by line, word, by word, analysis of scripture, how do we as Christians accept the blatant errors of the NT Read more: ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/410/nt-errors#ixzz6BCJvp0E7Try again Big deal – I can find a quotation by anyone to suggest something different. Show me how 100s of Roman and Israeli historical document are incorrect Herod died in 4BC The Census was in 6AD – no one was required to return to the ancestors home - Luke is in error Why does ever Christian seminary make this a homework assignment? As Chuck Missler speaks of the Birth of Jesus – why won’t he use Luke? From now on – every time you criticize my scripture – I’ll just say I have a quote from a man somewhere to validate my belief The soul of the person we knew and loved as a physical being on this earth continues to exist after his or her death, continues to be aware of that which transpires in our lives, and continues to be the recipient of our love and the positive actions we do on his or her behalf. Absolutely not. Where does Scripture make this claim? It doesn't. In fact you told me that in the grave we are inert See what you get for speaking in absolutes. Are you wrong – or is the Tanak in error? 1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. Using your method – word only - Line by line – word for word – God = satan Why is this so confusing to you? Soul is a thing – it is an eternal thing – it pre-existed our birth and it continues after our death Spirit = the projection of the soul through a distance You can interact with my spirit – you cannot interact with my soul When God comes into your heart – is it GOD inside you – or His spirit? – The Holly Spirit Are you saying the HS creates – it contradictory to all of your previous post So now you are saying that the promise of eterneal life is a lie John 3:16 is a lie in your version of Christianity? You and I will never be eternal No wonder you question why you need to choose Mitzvah or chata (Wiki – Dead Sea Scrolls) The majority of the texts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are non-biblical in nature and were thought to be insignificant for understanding the composition or canonization of the Biblical books, but a different consensus has emerged which sees many of these works as being collected by the Essene community instead of being composed by them.[513] Scholars now recognize that some of these works were composed earlier than the Essene period, when some of the Biblical books were still being written or redacted into their final form. (non-biblicial = non-Roman Canon) Who cut it down Rome did – you make a huge mistake think that the Catholic OT is equivalent to the bulk of Hebrew ScriptureThe Catholic OT is nothing more than the Greek Septuagint of only the Tanak(Wiki – Biblicial Canon) According to Marc Zvi Brettler, the Jewish scriptures outside the Torah and the Prophets were fluid, different groups seeing authority in different books. Mäṣḥafä Kedus (Holy Scriptures) is the name for the religious literature of these Jews, which is written primarily in Ge'ez. Their holiest book, the Orit, consists of the Pentateuch, as well as Joshua, Judges, and Ruth. The rest of the Ethiopian Jewish canon is considered to be of secondary importance.[citation needed] It consists of the remainder of the Hebrew canon—with the possible exception of the Book of Lamentations—and various deuterocanonical books. These include Sirach, Judith, Tobit, 1 and 2 Esdras, 1 and 4 Baruch, the three books of Meqabyan, Jubilees, Enoch,[note 1] the Testament of Abraham, the Testament of Isaac, and the Testament of Jacob. The latter three patriarchal testaments are distinct to this scriptural tradition.[note 2] A third tier of religious writings that are important to Ethiopian Jews, but are not considered to be part of the canon, include the following: Nagara Muse (The Conversation of Moses), Mota Aaron (Death of Aaron), Mota Muse (Death of Moses), Te'ezaza Sanbat (Precepts of Sabbath), Arde'et (Students), the Apocalypse of Gorgorios, Mäṣḥafä Sa'atat (Book of Hours), Abba Elias (Father Elija), Mäṣḥafä Mäla'əkt (Book of Angels), Mäṣḥafä Kahan (Book of Priests), Dərsanä Abrəham Wäsara Bägabs (Homily on Abraham and Sarah in Egypt), Gadla Sosna (The Acts of Susanna), and Baqadāmi Gabra Egzi'abḥēr (In the Beginning God Created).[citation needed] In addition to these, Zëna Ayhud (the Ethiopic version of Josippon) and the sayings of various fālasfā (philosophers) are sources that are not necessarily considered holy, but nonetheless have great influence.[citation needed] Samaritan canon Another version of the Torah, in the Samaritan alphabet, also exists. This text is associated with the Samaritans (Hebrew: שומרונים; Arabic: السامريون), a people of whom the Jewish Encyclopedia states: "Their history as a distinct community begins with the taking of Samaria by the Assyrians in 722 BC."[17] The Abisha Scroll, the oldest scroll among the Samaritans in Nablus. The Samaritan Pentateuch's relationship to the Masoretic Text is still disputed. Some differences are minor, such as the ages of different people mentioned in genealogy, while others are major, such as a commandment to be monogamous, which only appears in the Samaritan version. More importantly, the Samaritan text also diverges from the Masoretic in stating that Moses received the Ten Commandments on Mount Gerizim—not Mount Sinai—and that it is upon this mountain (Gerizim) that sacrifices to God should be made The Early Church used the Old Testament, namely the Septuagint (LXX) among Greek speakers [ forums.catholic.com/t/tanakh/393270Question – Tanakh- Does anyone use this i believe it claims to be the original Hebrew text of the OT.(I love this Catholic answer!)The problem with the Tanakh (AKA the Masoretic Text, or Hebrew Canon) is that there is nothing authoritative whatsoever about it. There is no Hebrew (Jewish) Church with any authority to declare anything canonical. There never has been any such authority. The Jewish Faith has never had (and still does not have) any sort of authority which would be recognizable to any Catholic.The Tanakh represents (at best) a consensus of many Sixth-Century Jewish Rabbis about what the Canon of the Hebrews ought to be. It is not, in any way, shape, or form, what the actual Canon of the Hebrews actually IS, because there is no Hebrew authority which can make that claim. And there never has been. (Then he says)Jesus gave the Catholic Church actual AUTHORITY (Matt 16:18). The Catholic Church can actually DEFINE the Canon of Scripture.(Only Rome can define Jewish Canon – seems a little arrogant to me – but you seem to accept this as true Mr. Greek Textus Receptus guy) Is the Catholic Bible the same as the Jewish Bible? www.quora.com/Is-the-Catholic-Bible-the-same-as-the-Jewish-BibleMichael DeMartino, Researcher of Judaism. Both under Rabbis and independently. Answered Jul 23, 2017 · Author has 750 answers and 828k answer views The Jews reject the Old Testament of the Christian Bible versions as incomplete and mistranslated. There are a series of notable mistranslations which exist in the Christian versions of the Old Testament. They are actually pretty blaring when you hold them up to scrutiny. The Torah is a series of two partner documents which are presented as a single document. The Written Torah and The Oral Torah refer to two different bodies of works which are partnered together with the same document. What would be in a Christian Old Testament is a version of the Written Torah. The other half of that document is referred to as the Oral Torah. It’s the document which explains all of the details and exercises of Jewish ritual commanded in the Torah. The vowel system which allows us to read the Written Torah, that comes from the Oral Torah. You would have never been able to understand what the Written Torah was actually expressing without the Oral Torah.www.quora.com/Is-the-Catholic-Bible-the-same-as-the-Jewish-BibleJames Hough, Catholic who teaches Catechism, RCIA, and Prayer classes. Answered Jul 23, 2017 · Author has 14.3k answers and 3.7m answer views The Catholic Old Testament is the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of the Jewish Bible used through the world for a couple centuries up through the time of Christ. The current Jewish Bible is called the Masoretic text which was formed by the Jews in the 7th through 10th centuries after Christ, which eliminated the Deuterocanon of the Septuagint. forums.catholic.com/t/tanakh/393270Question – Tanakh- Does anyone use this i believe it claims to be the original Hebrew text of the OT. Some Christians seem permanently confused about Judaism - as if all we’ve been doing for the past couple of millennia has been to make up excuses for not believing in Jesus. forums.catholic.com/t/tanakh/393270Question – Tanakh- Does anyone use this i believe it claims to be the original Hebrew text of the OT. While our scriptures have a context for Christians, it’s a mistake to think that Judaism is, somehow, Christianity minus Jesus, it isn’t. It’s a very different religion. To Christians, what you call the Old Testament is really prophesies and setting the stage for the arrival of your Saviour and your scriptures. In Judaism, however, everything centres on the first five books of the Tanakh - the Torah, the Law. Everything else - the rest of the Tanakh (Prophets and the Writings), then what we call ‘Oral Torah’ and writings/discussions even to this day could be described as being about Torah. Taking away the technical language, it could be described as endless discussions about how to live ethical monotheism. In other words the two religions have a different focus and ‘work’ quite differently - they could be said to be about rather different things - one religion could be described as more concerned with ‘orthodoxy’/correct belief while the other is more concerned with ‘orthopraxy’/correct action. Certainly, the preoccupations of one are not the preoccupations of the other. ………… http://www. jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11683-old-testament BIBLE CANON: (Redirected from OLD TESTAMENT.) Meaning and Scope. The Greek word κανών, meaning primarily a straight rod, and derivatively a norm or law, was first applied by the church fathers (not earlier than 360) to the collection of Holy Scriptures, and primarily to those of the so-called Old Testament (Credner, "Zur Gesch. des Canons," pp. 58-68). But although the older Jewish literature has no such designation for the Biblical books, and it is doubtful whether the word was ever included in the rabbinical vocabulary, it is quite certain that the idea expressed by the designation "canonical writings" (γραΦαὶ κανονικαί), both as including and as excluding certain books, is of Jewish origin. The designation "Apocrypha" affords a parallel instance: the word is Greek; the conception is Jewish (compare the words "Genuzim," "Genizah"). Designations. The oldest and most frequent designation for the whole collection of Biblical writings is V03p140001.jpg, "Books." This word, which in Dan. ix. 2 means all the sacred writings, occurs frequently in the Mishnah, as well as in traditional literature, without closer definition. The expression V03p140002.jpg ("Holy Books") belongs to later authors. It is employed first by the medieval exegetes; for instance, Ibn Ezra, introduction to "Yesod Morah" and "M'ozne Lashon ha-Ḳodesh"; see also Neubauer, "Book of Tobit," 43b, Oxford, 1878; Grätz, "Gesch. der Juden," 3d ed., vii. 384; Margoliouth, "Cat. Hebr. and Samaritan MSS. Brit Mus.," Nos. 181, 193; and elsewhere infrequently, but never in Talmud or Midrash. This fact goes to show that the ancients regarded the whole mass of the national religious writings as equally holy. The Greek translation of the term is τὰ βιβλία, which (as maybe seen from the expressions καὶ τὰ λΟιπὰ τῶν βιβλίων and καὶ τῶν ἄλλων πατρίων βιβλίων) is used by the grandson of Sirach in the introduction to Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) to designate the whole of the Scriptures. Rome is not my authority
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 13:37:26 GMT -5
Hmmm? interesting...
The Catholic Old Testament is the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of the Jewish Bible used through the world for a couple centuries up through the time of Christ.
OK, but that does make the OT Christian Bible Roman Catholic, it makes it Jewish, as 70 Jews translated the tanak into Greek, and chose which books to translate. That makes the OT in the textus receptus, Jewish, not Catholic?
And this Jewish translation took place in 300BC, the time of Alexander, long before Roman Catholic ever existed? Is this correct?
Why did the Jewish people choose the scrolls they did for Alexander? You would have to ask the Jews, but the scrolls we have in Greek, ie OT, were originally translated by Jews.
The dead sea scrolls from AD55 also confirm the Old Testament in Hebrew is the same as the Old Testament is the Septuagint in Greek, except book of Ester is missing. Again years before Roman Catholics ever existed.
SO where does Catholics come in? They don't?
SO from 300BC to 55AD, the Old Testament is the Septuagint in Greek was used by Greeks and Greek Hebrew peoples, as well as Hebrew peoples. All of them were Jews.
How much does the Hebrew differ in Jewish Gensis, from Old Testament is the Septuagint Genesis for example? Answer that question. I suspect the Old Testament is the Septuagint Greek is a good rendering of the Hebrew, is this idea correct?
And it's Jewish, not Catholic?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 16, 2020 18:12:04 GMT -5
You are correct – the Septuagint is translation of the Jewish Tanak
Yep – 3rd Century BC
You already answered this above – because they were translating the Tanak so they gathered together the Tanak
Your Catholic OT is bases totally upon the Septuagint – Yes or No?
This is not the issue – or at least a minor issue
The real issue is – your mistake is – making the assumption that the Tanak is the totality of Jewish Scripture Who said that the Catholic OT = the entirety of the Jewish Scripture base? – It is NOT! Jews sure don’t say this – Rome does
You can defend Rome all day long – it will do you no good
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 13:15:56 GMT -5
I have just been re-reading your prayer life Dave, they are fantastic and very personal. I pity my stupid comments. I read your reaction to them. I need that kick in the ass. LOL I am only a babe too, in writing and praying and talking, full of pride. My wife calls me a "right fighter". Maybe this is less important. Maybe I should spend more time, getting more friendly with others. This is more important, than playing "word games". Thanks for putting up with me all those months. Perhaps when I mature a little more in my training with the Lord, I will be able to respond to others like yourself, with more humility and love. Shalom my friend
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