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Post by Dave on Jan 1, 2020 12:33:50 GMT -5
You talk about Hebrew word studies – Do you translate Hebrew – or read it from an inter-linear?
Please translate this passage from the original Hebrew –
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 and blessed be God Most High, who hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him a tenth of all.
Question – who tithed to who?
The question is all about grammar – how much time do you spend with Hebrew grammar? Translating Greek from the original text – 75% grammar 25% vocabulary When I taught Greek – it was easy to see which students translated with the help of an interlinear Why? – Because those struggling with just the text struggle with the grammar – especially Paul Those who used an inter-linear do not have the same questions – or the same translation
When I translate a Greek text – I do not want to know the verse In the end – I want to compare to the Canon – to see how close I come If I know the text – I am lead to a pre-conceived answer
The original Greek text has no punctuation - the original Hebrew text had no vowels or punctuation Any Greek text that does – it has been added by Rome
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 13:30:57 GMT -5
Yes Dave , you hit a good point here.
I do not read Hebrew. I do not speak Hebrew. I can't translate Hebrew either. I don't study grammar .
That makes me a babe.
All I do is make sure the word that is rendered in English, is the same word in English for each Hebrew across all the sentences.
I notice in Luther's German Bible, each German word matches consistently the Hebrew words consistently. one for one. All the time. Such translations like this are rare. Jeff Benner does the same.
The KJV is close, but not consistent.
All other translations are whatever they like.
I would love to consider prefix and suffix in Hebrew, but my software Bible does not do this. SO I can only read as a babe.
But even at this elementary level, we disagree already, so why introduce further complexity with grammar?
I prefer words. Words are important. Get the words right. When I tried to understand hearing a strange language, the first thing a babe does is listen for words you hear and understand. The grammar context happens later.
so in pidgin English, a mix of languages like German, native and English,
dewhy is wood pikinni is child haus is building this pella come lotu, means this fella come to building, etc
That's how one learns a strange language, you begin learning words first, than you add grammar to the words later.
Why we even don't agree over the meanings of the words. SO forget about the grammar.
Please translate this passage from the original Hebrew –
Gen 14:18
Question – who tithed to who?
I suppose Abram gave a tenth of spoils from war, to High Priest.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 1, 2020 22:12:24 GMT -5
Please translate this passage from the original Hebrew – Gen 14:18 Question – who tithed to who?I suppose Abram gave a tenth of spoils from war, to High Priest. This is not a trick question - I am honestly trying to make a point This was a favorite bone to pick at AHR Take all the vowels away Take all the punctuation away Who does the he (pronoun) refer to? How do we know? What proof do we have? This passage can be equally read either way Why has Christianity always read it as Abraham tithed? How do Jews read this passage?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 12:10:51 GMT -5
Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
HOW WONDERFUL you are. Thanks Dave.
It doesn't say. It seems to suggest when you come to GOD, GOD supports you with riches. And gives you His tenth. And you respond to His support, by giving GOD back also a tenth of your blessings. I see the verse is about sharing. That what support means, the Hebrew picture of faith.
So where does the commandment to share and tithe come from?
Ex 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Here? really?
Ex 21:1 ¶ Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
Ex 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
How does this relate to tithe, to sharing?
Loved your comments to bring this up. Thank you. Always more treasure in the Word.
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Post by Dave on Jan 2, 2020 16:08:10 GMT -5
HOW WONDERFUL you are. Thanks Dave. It doesn't say. It seems to suggest when you come to GOD, GOD supports you with riches. And gives you His tenth. And you respond to His support, by giving GOD back also a tenth of your blessings. I see the verse is about sharing. Robert - seriously - it takes two to tangle HOW WONDERFUL you areYou have me on a another study - help me with this one Inspired by your comments that creation continues into day 7 Genesis 2:2 (ASV) And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (TLV) God completed—on the seventh day—His work that He made, and He ceased—on the seventh day—from all His work that He made. Tanak / English interlinear - www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htmThe WLC source is maintained by the Westminster Hebrew Institute, Philadelphia, PA (http://www.wts.edu/resources/alangroves/grovesprojects.html). The main Hebrew text in ISA, the "WLC", has no vowels or cantillation, but in the sublinear "WLC_v" the vowels are included. Gen 2:2 ַוְיַכל אלִֹהים בּיּ הְשִּׁביִעי מַלאְכתּ אֶשׁר עָשׂה וִיְּשֹׁבּת WLC and·he-is-finishing Elohim in·the·day the·seventh work-of·him which he-did Strongs H3615, H430, H3117, H7637, H4399, H834, H6213 end Plural God (Hot / day) seventh ministry (It or everything) (To do / make) From the translations above – it appears that God is still creating on day 7 But – this is not the message of Christendom or Judaism – why? The message from Christendom = (YLT) and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. Young’s literial translation – I used it a lot along side Greek - but when I translate I sound more (Greek OT) καὶ συνετέλεσεν ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἕκτῃ τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ, ἃ ἐποίησεν, καὶ κατέπαυσεν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἑβδόμῃ ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν ἔργων αὐτοῦ, ὧν ἐποίησεν. I would also translate the Septuagint as everything was completed by day 7 – I would also expect my students to reach the same conclusion – because of GrammarThe 70 scholars that drafted the Septuagint chose συνετέλεσεν to represent ַוְיַכל συνετέλεσεν – is a past perfect verb meaning something that has already been completed Explain these Hebrew verbs to me as to verb tense וְיַכל – he is finishing (present tense) the things that עָשׂה he did (past tense) This is not in tense agreement – is he doing it present tense or did he do it past tense The verse in translation has to be – completed the things he did by day 7 (Past + past) (YLT) and God completeth by the seventh day (done – over - past) + (KJV) his work which he had made (done – over – past) OR – finishing up the things He is still doing presently (present + present) It cannot be – finishing (present) the things done in the past (present + past) Another difference between the Tanak and the Septuagint Question - Is creation over – or is it continuing today Question - Is day 7 over – Paul say not My answer - the 70 scholars had an understanding of the Oral Law - their Kabbalah These 70 scholars brought their heritage in to the translation
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 5:41:08 GMT -5
(KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested (verb form Shabbath) on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Why the verb form and not the noun form, because Sabbath Ceasing began, but it did not become evening and morning, an eight day. SO its written this way to indicate Creation took seven days, not eight days.
As for verb grammar and tense, you know I am no Hebrew scholar.
The whole of Creation taking 7 days was to highlight Sabbath as special. People who assume Sabbath wasn't created, are foolish. The Sabbath time is there, but it begin on Creation.
Man's time, was built around a week of time.
Question - Is creation over – or is it continuing today
Depends upon how bara means. If you see bara as fill or fatten,
Than GOD created creation for the fattening of His love, to the witnesses seeing ra for the first time. Thus we filling out GOD's love in His redemption.
Shalom my friend
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2020 11:52:31 GMT -5
The whole of Creation taking 7 days was to highlight Sabbath as special. People who assume Sabbath wasn't created, are foolish. The Sabbath time is there, but it begin on Creation. 6 Days vers 7 Days My answer - the 70 scholars had an understanding of the Oral Law - their Kabbalah These 70 scholars brought their heritage in to the translation How do you justify 7 days in light of the bulk of scripture It all must agree – line upon line – as you say Exodus 20:11 (ASV) for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (TLV) For in six days Adonai made (H6213) heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Thus Adonai blessed Yom Shabbat, and made it holy. (YLT) for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it. עָשָׂה - H6213 A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ( ), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use. Total KJV occurrences: 2633
In the Tanak the word is - ָעָשׂה - he-madedo (made =past tense – make = present tense)
עָשָׂה • (asá) (pa'al construction, present עוֹשֶׂה, future יַעֲשֶׂה, passive participle עָשׂוּי, passive counterpart נַעֲשָׂה)
Tanak / English interlinear - www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htmThe WLC source is maintained by the Westminster Hebrew Institute, Philadelphia, PA (http://www.wts.edu/resources/alangroves/grovesprojects.html). The main Hebrew text in ISA, the "WLC", has no vowels or cantillation, but in the sublinear "WLC_v" the vowels are included.
20:11 ִכּי ki that ֵשֶׁשׁת shshth six-of ־ָיִמים imim days ָעָשׂה oshe he-madedo – what is the verb tense of this word? ְיהָוה ieue Yahweh ֶאת ath » ־ַהָשַּׁמִים e·shmim the·heavens ְוֶאת u·ath and·» ־ָה ָא ֶרץ e·artz the·earth
(Septuagint Greek OT) ἐν γὰρ ἓξ ἡμέραις ἐποίησεν (G4160) κύριος τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν θάλασσαν καὶ πάντα τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ κατέπαυσεν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἑβδόμῃ· διὰ τοῦτο εὐλόγησεν κύριος τὴν ἡμέραν τὴν ἑβδόμην καὶ ἡγίασεν αὐτήν. –
(KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Ποιέω - G4160 - Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238. Total KJV occurrences: 576
Ποιέω – G4160 is a present tense ἐποίησεν – G4160 is the past perfect form –(something that is completed long ago)
Grammar matters
You keep asking for a Tanak interlinear – the link to one is above and one below I also found this when looking
“Hebrew Bible Scholar A Resource Guide to Studying the Bible in Hebrew hebrewbiblescholar.com/avoid-interlinears/Why to Avoid Using Interlinear BiblesWhen many students first begin to learn Biblical Hebrew, they think that a Hebrew-English interlinear bible can really help them in their studies. Unfortunately, they are usually wrong. Such a version of the Hebrew Bible may seem very attractive to beginning students (and even some intermediate students as well). This is because beginning students will likely have a limited Biblical Hebrew vocabulary, difficulty identifying irregular verb forms, and a lack of experience in dealing with the peculiarities of Hebrew grammar.Advantages of Interlinear BiblesThere is only one real advantage of using an interlinear Hebrew Bible: it makes reading the Bible in Hebrew seem less scary. Some people will say that they find they can translate the Bible more quickly using an interlinear, but this is almost never the case. Instead, they are usually simply reading the translation that someone else has provided.Disadvantages of Interlinear BiblesThe disadvantages of using interlinear bibles far outweigh any advantages. Here are three of the most important reasons why you should steer clear of interlinears: Focusing only on translating the Hebrew Bible into English can really hurt your ability to understand the meaning of biblical texts. Biblical Hebrew is a Semitic language and very different from English and other European languages. If you only use an interlinear bible to read the text of the Hebrew Bible, you will be missing many interesting features of syntax, style, wordplay, and poetics, etc. You may even miss a central aspect of a text.People who use interlinear bibles often become dependent upon them. They never actually learn to understand Biblical Hebrew on its own terms – instead, they only understand Biblical Hebrew as it is translated into English. Final VerdictIf you are still convinced that you would like to buy an interlinear Hebrew bible, information can be found by clicking on (https://www.amazon.com/Interlinear-Bible-Hebrew-Greek-English-English-Hebrew/dp/1565639774/ref=as_sl_pc_ss_til?tag=hebrbiblscho-20&linkCode=w00&linkId=&creativeASIN=1565639774 ). However, do be aware that there are several good alternatives to interlinear bibles which can help you to learn Biblical Hebrew and read the Bible in Hebrew at the same time.” Grammar matter when discussing languageThey is reasons why many verbs is hard for us that will have been taught gooder English when I is small Back to 6 days vres 7 daysI have 18 more verse to discuss to support a 6 day creation Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Jehovah: whosoever doeth any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Your question – are you saying God violates his own laws? Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2020 12:46:52 GMT -5
Question - Is creation over – or is it continuing today Depends upon how bara means. If you see bara as fill or fatten Scripture say all physicial creation was over before day 7 began Then God stepped back - rested - and allowed the Contest to unfold on Earth
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 16:19:21 GMT -5
COrrect
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 13:58:40 GMT -5
Ok I read and listen to 6 minutes of your Rabbi, he raises too many questions already: www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIJzvNhCP28&feature=youtu.be Rabbi: "nothing outside of God's powers. God can't control evil, is not acceptable. ROB: "Does GOD control evil? GOD creates evil? is this the same as controlling evil? Does GOD stop us from sinning? yes or no? The answer has to be no, God cannot stop us from sinning. This would violate free will. SO GOD cannot stop my will from sinning, if I choose to sin. Therefore GOD does NOT control sinning. GOD does NOT control evil, but HE does limit the flow of evil and sinning. He often slow sinning down. The great flood is an example. It's purpose to limit sinning, slow it down. This is a sort of control. Another example is to hide truth, to limit religions based on truth. Stop evil men taking truth away, again limiting evil and slowing sinning down. But can GOD stop the sinner from sinning if He chooses to sin? The control has to have limits. Rabbi: "How can we be a power if we are not in His power?Rob: All living and all power comes from GOD. When you sin, the power to sin comes from you, but your alive, you think, you act, all this comes from GOD, but not the sinning, that must come from you. Darkness is defined by GOD, light, but GOD is not darkness. You are darkness when you sin. GOD only allows the darkness to be seen by you. ROB: " When you sin, are you in God's power? Your life, your mind to think, your hand to do is in GOD's power, but your sinning is walking away from GOD's powers, and you walk alone in darkness. God does not enter into darkness to walk with you. There has to be limits to where GOD can walk with you. There has to be a darkness unto death, and also a darkness NOT unto death. 1 John speaks of this. It's a relationship based process. At some relationship GOD leaves you alone in your darkness. Can you be rescued from darkness? yes. You come back into the light. Rabbi: Either GOD is NOT the power of all powers?Loaded thought. Yes in some ways, even Satan exists and thinks and does and do's. When does Satan living come from? From GOD. Where does Satan's darkness come from? From Himself. Is not SELF a power alien to GOD? The Hebrew word for this is BAAL. Does not BAAL master us? Are we not our own masters? Where does this power come from? Not from GOD, but from the fruits of sin. So GOD cannot be the source of all powers? GOD cannot create powers inside darkness. GOD cannot lie. So lying has to be a power outside of GOD. Scripture says Devil was a murderer from the beginning. What beginning? Before earth began? When? Did not cherub sin, before earth began, or is this Scripture not allowed to be read correctly? What does "from the beginning mean"?
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Post by Dave on Jan 8, 2020 14:39:02 GMT -5
Ok I read and listen to 6 minutes of your Rabbi, he raises too many questions already: 6 minutes of a 2hr lecture is not an objective review. satan is not a creator god – there is only one creator That would be “in the beginning” Gen 1:1-2 – the GAP That would be “in the beginning” Gen 1:1-2 – the GAP “in the beginning” Gen 1:1-2 – the GAP Absolutely – but has nothing to do with your satan – who was a good angel who decided upon his own free will to be a bad angel It is all about the Chief Archon – the first of creation performed by the HS “in the beginning” Gen 1:1-2 – the GAP Ezk 28 is all about the King of Tyer Isa 14 is all about King Cyrus Can they be a metaphor for anything else in theology – of course Are they proof of your satan creator god? NO BECAUSE the Catholic satan is not consistant with Job - or the other verses Rabbi Singer highlighted line upon line - the Torah must agree with itself satan as a creator god is not consistant What is consistant with all of the Torah - one true Creator who is absolute control of everything every where according to His Will Jesus said - God's will done on earth as in heaven If there is a raging war centuries long that God just cannot win so far (meaning He is weak and powerless in the presence of satan - God has been unable to defeat satan by now - makes satan super powerfull - can take on God one on one) - it is God's Will not satan will who over ride God's plan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 13:35:53 GMT -5
Interesting reply Dave
Why do you say Satan is a creator GOD, ? What has sinning got to do with creating? nothing. All I see Satan doing is destroying, never created anything. No city for his own, no better after life for his own, nothing. If you do missing, you miss everything, your living, your atoms you have, your mind to think, you hands to do, you miss everything and end up as nothing. That's what missing (sin) really means. Is missing a more powerful force than GOD? What? no
SO why are you trapped in this thinking? The only weakness GOD feels is getting sinning beings to come back to His love and His loving. But they refuse. This refusal is what makes GOD a failure, GOD cannot save them, because they refuse to be saved.
Does friction create anything? no Does evolution create anything? no Does murder create anything? no Does lying create more truth? no
Give me an example where sin creates anything better?
Of that fabulous chocolate decadent bar with triple flavours, promises better high and joys of thrill? Is this true? maybe first 3 seconds, than flooded sensations, than boring after than. Does it create a better taste? a better health? a better longer lasting thrill? no
Or what about weed drugs, does the "out of body" experience really give you a thrill? Is this a better creation for the mind-body? SO you feel strong, you laugh more, and get drunk on alcohol and feel a better creation of you? Is any of this true?
SO your work output increases, your mind thinking gets better? your love to your wife increases? you become a better person? a better creation? so Sin is really a second creator? What? what a lot of crop!
Satan has never created anything better than GOD originally did. All Satan does is spoil things, destroy things and change our perception of what is true and good for us.
However to "sins" credit, some things were "created" from sinning. "Self" and "Self love" is created from sinning. Man becomes His own god. His own ruler. His own Creator.
Rob: "Did not cherub sin, before earth began, or is this Scripture not allowed to be read correctly?
Dave: "Absolutely – but has nothing to do with your satan – who was a good angel who decided upon his own free will to be a bad angel
Hang on a minute, you said cherubs don't have free will, now they do have free will, and one decided to switch from being good to being bad?
Since when is sin and sinning defined as changing or volunteering to do evil? Sin is defined as "missing GOD", you fail to love God, you fail to support GOD. You don't go to GOD and say, I volunteer to stop being good and now I do bad, because you want me to? That's not sinning. God would never want a cherub to do sinning, or even volunteer whatever that term means?
Sin, sinning and sinners are Beings who walk away from GOD. If really not a decision so much, but a constant walk away from GOD, to allow "Self" and "Self love" to rule over you. Instead of allowing yourself to support GOD and GOD support you. Sin is a change from community love to "independent love", a "love" that does not exist in God's world.
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
If you don't support GOD, you sin. Its not a decision, I choose not to support GOD or not. You sin, because you love to sin, and you choose not to support GOD.
For example, I see a manufactured chocolate decadent cake, crammed with thrill but also cancer, GMO oil and dysfunctional enzymes in it. I either ignore GOD and walk over an pick it up, eating it. This is a sin. OR I immediately say in my mind, "Lord keep me from things dysfunctional, lead me not into temptation" this prayer promise I use to support GOD, and the power of GOD supports me back, I walk past the evil, and choose not to do missing.
This is how our daily prayer, and His word works in the Christian life. We support GOD all the time, that's all living Beings do and can do. It's about free will in a way, but once you support GOD is prayer and word, it more about walking in relationship , rather than free will decisions. The free will goes away, and we seem to be robotic in our loving relationship.
Dave: "If there is a raging war centuries long that God just cannot win so far (meaning He is weak and powerless in the presence of satan - God has been unable to defeat satan by now
GOD is not weak. God is all there is. Satan and sin and sinning is nothing before GOD. Satan lost when He killed God's Son.
SO why does GOD raged war for so long? It's not about Satan and other fallen angels. Its the time to allow Beings to decide... one cannot force them to love...
Why does Satan promote billions of years of time? How long do you think this war in heaven went for? How subtle was it's work of deception? It gives you a clue into evolution, using time, for sin and sinning to work its magic. Does evolution or sin or Satan Create a better world? no
Is time the hero of the plot? no, Love needs time, because Beings are not able to grasp love growing daily in them, all at once, we need time to grow in love, so this time is allocated to us.
SO I don't see Satan as a Creator god at all, nothing like that? Why are you inflamed with this idea? Friction doesn't create anything? Killing doesn't create anything? Selfish is not a concept of GOD.
God can be jealous because GOD is relational, He wants your support. He needs your support, and you need His support. This is a passionate nature of GOD, but it is not evil to be relational and of community loving.
"in the beginning"
you say the gap. When was this? During earth's creation?
I would say the war in heaven went on for billions of years, whatever that term means, long before earth even existed. Why so long? because love is a super strong force, and it took many subtle thoughts to destroy love from loving.
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Post by Dave on Jan 9, 2020 15:55:25 GMT -5
This is your doctrine that you have shared with me Where does Satan's darkness come from? From Himself. GOD cannot be the source of all powers? GOD cannot create powers inside darkness. Why do you seek extra material outside of Hebrew to fill your mind with answers, when you neglect material in Ezekiel for instance? Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.These texts say "cherub" "created" "sinned" ....angels can sin.. Jesus says, Satan is the father of ra, a murderer from the beginning. So Satan has to ask for Father Tov to withdraw His tov, so father Ra can move in once more. The Father agrees to the test, to help those in the future see where ra comes from and who the real father of ra is. Dave: "Evil Spirit of YHWH – curious – how can you continue to uphold the tov only God idea Unless evil spirits are tov working for the Lord – is this what you are saying – evil spirit and God on the same side?Your saying GOD has both tov and ra in our world intentionally by design, that both tov spirit and ra spirit, are on the same side. I disagree with this. GOD created a world with tov and ra in it because angels once long ago sinned, and demanded this tov and ra universe. The tov Spirit comes from a tov Father, the ra spirit comes from a ra fallen angel, Satan. They are enemies. Opposites. Satan has never created anything better than GOD originally did. However to "sins" credit, some things were "created" from sinning. You say satan creates – I do not I did not misspeak – you misread Again – it has nothing to do with your satan – who was a good angel who decided upon his own free will to be a bad angelIt is all about the Chief Archon who was created as a Bad Angel – called Archon No free will – no switching sides – no good angel ever became a bad angel / archon – everAngels cannot over ride God’s will Angels cannot change God’s will Angels cannot change God’s plan for His multi-verse The Chief Archon and his staff are of God’s will – serving the Lord – and facilitating God’s Plan Which Earth – the one created in Gen 1:1 – then my answer is yes If you are speaking about our planet Earth that didn’t get around to supporting life of any king until Gen 1:11 them NO
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 15:07:00 GMT -5
I like the way you put all my posts on this topic together, nice job Dave.
So you don't like my idea, that the only thing sinning creates is "self" and with this "selfishness" and thus the Being becomes his own "inherent source of power". And by "Create" I mean "engineer", the material inside man, or an angel, that chooses to sin, originally created by GOD, changes to something else than is not created by GOD, but created by the Being sinning. This is what causes the war, the bad things and all the evil we see.
If we were to choose your picture of GOD and His creation, than all things, including SELF and SELFISHNESS were a part of GOD's design, than there can be no war in heaven if both concepts of waring parties are on the same Designer? How is that a war? It's a fake war. So when it says "an enemy", this is a lie?
Mt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
and you also say your Archons were a byproduct of Creation, a sort of mistake on God's design? So God is not powerful enough NOT to create all TOV?
It is all about the Chief Archon who was created as a Bad Angel – called Archon
OK who created Chief Archon as a Bad Angel? GOD did.
DO you really believe this?
So in heaven, all angels do GOD's bidding, no free will?
SO how does a war start, with angels flung into two camps? if there is no free will?
No free will – no switching sides – no good angel ever became a bad angel / archon – ever
Boy your ideas make no sense. Scripture says:
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
For angels to fight, implies free will, for angels to split into two camps implies free will. Satan takes one camp of angels to earth.
SO your saying GOD intentionally created a bad angel, so the others volunteered to go with Satan? Than it's not a war is it? Not an enemy either? violates the word "oppose and opponent" too.
Jews also say angels don't sin? So how can you war? Is not a war a sin? But if Satan is created bad to begin with, all your doctrine makes sense.
Except GOD is the author of sin, sinning and good and evil. I cannot accept this.
God is love. God is TOV. God is not hate. God is not RA. Both terms are opposites. As light and dark are opposites.
Show me a natural experiment where darkness creates itself, no light required. Can't be done. Darkness is by definition a "strange creator" only in the sense darkness destroys light, absorbs light, and stops light functioning. This is the correct understanding of SELF and SELFISHNESS. This is what umbra shadows are, Relationships GOD cannot stand. Relationships GOD must end. Sure you can create umbra shadows, move yourself from the light. Easy to show.
But to say GOD designed umbra shadows in the beginning of our Creation is false. One day our earth will be far brighter than it is now, and even natural umbra shadows will cease to exist. The only shadows we will see are the light entering ones science calls pre-umbra shadows. We also have no friction. Humans will walk on the wings of the Holy Spirit, carried about. Totally different to anything we have now on earth. No more Ra and Tov, only all Tov.
Sorry Dave but your ideas make no sense to me, or even simple natural experiments we do to show us darkly what GOD is like.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 10, 2020 19:56:39 GMT -5
Angels do not create Something that is not created by God? – impossible Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; Pro 16:4 Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. 1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. For tho there are many gods (small g) - to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, - and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things,How can one verse in Ezk 28 out weight the totality of scripture – all of scripture is wrong except your view of two words within one verse of Ezk 28? God is omnipotent By-product = inhererent Things perceived as mistakes by man – are simply man’s inability or refusal to understand Was the Holocaust a RA for the Jews or a TOV? Was the mortal death of Jesus Christ on the Cross a RA or a TOV When God sent His proxy, the angel of death, unto the Egyptians – was that a RA or a TOV? Question for you – who created the heaven and earth of Gen 1:1 – God or Christ? ahl says Elohiym (pl) – agl says Christ, who is God Trinity says – dumb question because God = Christ / Christ = God Gnostics say the Chief Archon was the first independent product of the Holy Spirit Trinity says – HS= the Spirit of God = God = Christ Gnostic trinity = An unidentifiable singularity Creator Father + the “Image” of the Creator = Christ + the Spirit of the Creator = HS Clarification – you are going to argue vocabulary – but too bad Soul = locality – a thing Spirit = that thing expressed through a distance God = locality – God’s Spirit = HS = God expressing Himself through a distance – medium / matrix / ether Christ = the image of God Did God make the archon – YES, because God created everything – nothing was created that was not created by Him. Did God do it directly? Did God say – let there be RA? Nag Hammadi Scriptures written by the Disciples John, James, and Peter say, God did not do it directly – meaning God never said let there be RA Instead – those authors say, it was the expression of the female nature of God = the Spirit of God = The Holy Spirit – aka Sophia While the rest of creation was expressed via Christ – the male nature of God – who came incarnate as Jesus Christ Why does these texts suggest such a thing? James – the same author also wrote Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man: God does not do it directly – He has a staff for that God did not kill the people of Egypt – His proxy the angel of death did God did not torment Job – His proxy satan did I do not accept in any form that Ezk 28 or Isa 14 prove that any angel anywhere ever had free will, because they do not. I do not accept in any form that there is one angel named satan who is at war with God. I do not accept in any form that after that – another full 1/3 of all the good guy angels also changed sides out of free will – because they don’t have any The idea that God’s angels, standing next to God, in full awareness of God would prefer RA over God – is blasphemy The idea that these ‘fallen angels’ then go around creating anything is also blasphemy – there is no second creators This is 100% Catholic and 0% Jewish or Jewish Kabbalah The authors John, James, and Peter were Jewish – there Jewish views come out in the Nag Hammadi – their views are 100% Jewish and 100% Gnostic and 0% Catholic Do angels have the power to act at their own discretion?The word angel means “messenger” or “agent”. Scripture tells us that angels are witnesses to the creation of the world, which indicates they were with God long before the great event. Angels were created by God for a very divine purpose. They are here for one reason: to do God’s Will. In short, they were created to be instruments or agents to carry out His work. The Bible says, “Praise the Lord, you His angels, you mighty ones who do His bidding, who obey His Word” (Psalm 103:20). … In the Bible, perhaps the biggest and most important role of angels is praising and glorifying God. Revelation 5:11-12 gives a description of over 100 million angels praising God in heaven. Revelation 4: references angels who day and night never stopped saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was and who is to come.” Angels were also there to celebrate the birth of Jesus. We don’t know how many there were that day, but we do know that it was a great company of heavenly host. For angels, praising God is very important. In the Psalms, we are told that not only angels, but all of creation is to praise and worship God. Article 1. Whether there is will in the angels?Objection 1. It would seem that there is no will in the angels. For as the Philosopher says (De Anima iii, text. 42), "The will is in the reason." But there is no reason in the angels, but something higher than reason. Therefore there is no will in the angels, but something higher than the will. Objection 2. Further, the will is comprised under the appetite, as is evident from the Philosopher (De Anima iii, text. 42). But the appetite argues something imperfect; because it is a desire of something not as yet possessed. Therefore, since there is no imperfection in the angels, especially in the blessed ones, it seems that there is no will in them. Objection 3. Further, the Philosopher says (De Anima ii, text. 54) that the will is a mover which is moved; for it is moved by the appetible object understood. Now the angels are immovable, since they are incorporeal. Therefore there is no will in the angels. Jewish Viewwww.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmCan Angels Sin? - By Rabbi Yehuda Shurpin At first glance the answer seems simple enough. After all, did we not receive the Torah precisely because angels cannot sin? As Moses retorted in his winning argument to the angels during his epic debate in heaven over who should receive the Torah. "It is written in the Torah 'Thou shall not murder,' 'Thou shall not commit adultery,' 'Thou shall not steal.'" Moses said. "Is there jealousy among you!? Do you have an evil inclination!? Obviously the Torah is not meant for you."1 In other words, only man has been endowed with the inclination for both good and bad. And only man has been given free choice to choose either one. An angel, on other hand, has no evil inclination and therefore no free choice. This would seem to mean that an angel is something like a robot, which cannot rebel or sin. Even the oft-cited example of the Satan as a rogue angel is a gross misunderstanding. Satan is merely the name of an angel whose divinely assigned task is to seduce people towards sin. This angel is also the prosecutor who levels charges in front of the heavenly court against those who succumb to his crafty seductions. The word satan simply means prosecutor in Hebrew. If the Heavenly court decides that it is time for someone to die, then the Satan is the one sent down to take his life. In fact, the Talmud tells us that, "Satan, the urge to do evil, and the Angel of Death are all one."2 All these titles are simply multiple job descriptions for one angel. An angel fulfilling its divine duty is hardly in conflict with its own Creator.3 IMO – to the best of my 1 Thes 5:21 testing – Angels do not have free will – they were made for a purpose / a function – to serve God’s will Jews say and angel serving in the role of the accusor (man opponent) – is a function of satan and therefore called satan Gnostics – address not only satan – but the entire hierarchy of the bad-angel side of things (archon) Beginning with the Chief Archon (created for a function / a purpose) indirectly – by the left hand not the right hand – Then – this Chief archon – multiplied – like rust on your car – it grew and spread – entropy No good angel with free will ever rose up against God Instead – indirectly the archon were created for a purpose / a function – a different function then just praise praise praise – a new function to test, test, test Then humanity comes along and we are trapped within the contest between the paradigms What is that paradigm? Gen 3 – gnosis of Good and Evil – TOV and RA And because man gnosis the difference TOV and RA (or is suppose to) – man has the choice Πόλεμος - G4171 - Thayer Definition: 1) a war 2) a fight, a battle 3) a dispute, strife, quarrelΠόλεμος - G4171 - Strongs Definition: From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war. The Gospel of the Egyptians - The Nag Hammadi LibraryAfter five thousand years, the great light Eleleth spoke: "Let someone reign over the chaos and Hades." And there appeared a cloud whose name is hylic Sophia [...] She looked out on the parts of the chaos, her face being like [...] in her form [...] blood. And the great angel Gamaliel spoke to the great Gabriel, the minister of the great light Oroiael; he said, "Let an angel come forth, in order that he may reign over the chaos and Hades."OK – Now you have done it – new question to youGen 1:1 God created the heaven and earth Rev 12:8 … neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 … he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Is the heavan and earth of Gen 1:1 the same as Rev 12? Is the earth of Gen 1:1 the same as Gen 1:11? What is the meaning of INTO THE EARTH?
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