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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2023 12:56:38 GMT -5
Job and John: The Satans Ronan James Head
JOHN: We need to talk about the Great Dragon. You have met him I presume? JOB: I am not sure. Have I?
JOHN: That Satan who cursed your life! JOB: I have known many satans. It’s a popular name around here. In my Hebrew tongue the name comes from the verb śāṭan.1
JOHN: And in English (for the sake of our audience)? Something devilish, I presume. JOB: Let me think. The precise meaning is difficult to render in English but lies somewhere between “to accuse,” “to slander,” and “to be an adversary.” You know Greek: the Septuagint will translate it in Psalm 38:21 with the term endieballon, suggesting slander.
JOHN: Definitely sounds devilish. JOB: I suppose but it depends on who is being an adversary, why, and to whom. In Greek you have this term for “devil”—diabolos—which conveys a roughly similar meaning: “one who throws something across one’s path,” or “obstructor.”2 In the Hebrew tradition we often apply the term satan to human or heavenly figures who block the way of the wrongdoer, with a negative ------------------------------- 1. The verb occurs only six times in the Hebrew Bible (Psalm 38:21; 71:13; 109:4, 20, 29; Zechariah 3:1) and lacks a Semitic cognate. 2. In 1 Maccabees 1:36, Antiochus IV is called diabolon ponēron—an “evil foe.” Diabolos needed to be qualified by ponēros to make it clear the person in question was indeed wicked. “Devil” in English has, of course, lost this ambiguity. JSmith_Iron_Head.indd 49 6/1/2016 10:39:51 AM 50 As Iron Strengthens Iron sense of “adversary” or “slanderer” applied only when the satan in question is doing mischief thereby. Or at least, mischief of which God does not approve. ---------------------------
JOHN: So, how many of these satans have there been? JOB: Many! On earth there was David, when he was seen as a threat by the Philistine lords;3 Abishai, for overstepping the bounds of his authority in David’s eyes;4 a whole raft of Solomon’s enemies (he had lots of enemies);5 Hadad, the Elamite, whom the Lord incited against Solomon;6 Rezon too, if I recall correctly.7 Many of the Bibles people will read will simply translate śāṭān in all of these passages as “adversary.”
JOHN: You said there are heavenly satans too. JOB: Yes. Too many to name. There was the angel of the Lord who acted as “a satan” in blocking the path in front of poor Balaam’s ass;8 “the satan,”(with definite article: haśśāṭān) who stood as Joshua the high priest’s accuser in heaven and whom the Lord rebuked;9 and a satan who incited David to take a census of Israel.10 Then there was that satan who made my life so miserable, of course. So you see that we use “satan” as a title given to numerous beings, both human and not, who act as someone’s “adversary,” but not necessarily in opposition to God’s will. On the contrary!
JOHN: Intriguing. There is more to this than I supposed. You know, your story is a horror, even worse than mine. JOB: Really? All those weird beasts, all that blood and fire! Anyway, my story suggests something that has been going on for a very long time. So long, in fact, that we are not even sure if there was a beginning to it. -------------------------------
3. 1 Samuel 29:4. 4. 2 Samuel 19:22. 5. 1 Kings 5:4. 6. 1 Kings 11:14. 7. 1 Kings 11:23, 25. 8. Numbers 22:22. 9. Zechariah 3:1–2. 10. 1 Chronicles 21:1. This passage emends 2 Samuel 24:1 where it is Yahweh that takes a census of Israel. JSmith_Iron_Head.indd 50 6/1/2016 10:39:51 AM Job and John 51 ---------------------------
JOHN: Go on. Satan cursed you in order to win a bet with God. JOB: Careful. If you were to know your Hebrew you would see that he is described as “the satan” and not simply “Satan” or even “satan.” (Those capitalized proper nouns in English can be very misleading, not something we have to worry about in our tongues!) In my story, as I was later to find out, “the satan”11 was “roaming12 the earth.” God brings my, well, perfect righteousness to the satan’s attention and grants him the power to disturb my life, to “prove” me. I guess I passed but it was dreadful at the time.
JOHN: So, the Dragon works for God? JOB: Again, caution! I have said nothing about your Dragon! --------------------------------- 11. Biblical scholars have provided various models for the creation and evolution of the literary character of “satan” in the book of Job. Neil Forsyth assumes a Persian period composition for Job (fifth to fourth centuries b.c.e.). He sees the Satan’s “roaming” as alluding to the spies of the Persian court who patrolled the empire, a system of control “that must have been especially irksome to subjects of the Great King and may suggest that at least the Satan part of the Book of Job was composed in Persian times.” Neil Forsyth, The Old Enemy: Satan and the Combat Myth (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1987), 114. In his model, the satan represents the transfer of a political situation to a theological level. A. Leo Oppenheim, “The Eyes of the Lord,” Journal of the American Oriental Society 88, no. 1 (1968): 175. This suggestion has been made by various scholars and is followed by some of the commentaries. See James Crenshaw, “Job, Book of,” in The Anchor Bible Dictionary, ed D. N. Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 863–64 and the somewhat idiosyncratic H. Torczyner, “How Satan Came into the World,” Expository Times 48 (1936–1937): 563–65. Reference is often made to Persian royal spies in the Greek sources: The king has a thousand eyes and a thousand ears; and hence the fear of uttering anything against his interest since “he is sure to hear,” or “since he may be there to see.” Xenophon, Cyropedia, VIII.2.10– 12. From this evidence it has been suggested that the Persian satrapies were watched over by royal “spies” who reported any rebellion or disloyalty to the king. Crucially, however, there is no Persian evidence that confirms the existence of the institution of the King’s Eye or Ear. Hirsch concludes that, “the known facts of Persian history provide no support to a belief in the existence of a comprehensive network of agents relaying information to the Great King.” Steven W. Hirsch, The Friendship of the Barbarians: Xenophon and the Persian Empire (Hanover: New England, 1985), 129. Hirsch ascribes the Greek notion of a Persian spy network to the influence of Iranian mythological tradition, particularly the “Eyes of Mithra” (120f ). 12. Šuṭ, “to roam,” probably a pun on śāṭān. JSmith_Iron_Head.indd 51 6/1/2016 10:39:52 A 52 As Iron Strengthens Iron --------------------------------------------
JOHN: Right, yes. I keep forgetting. JOB: This particular satan was a member of the Divine Council, the celestial assembly with God at its center.13 You know the title, “Lord of hosts”? Well, that conveys this idea of the heavenly court which makes up the Lord’s retinue. Imagine it like the royal courts on earth. The Lord is the king and warrior, surrounded by his court and his army. Human courts also include the kind of officials to which the figure of the satan in my story alludes. In judicial courts, prosecutors14 and accusers play important roles, and in the apparatus of imperial government, spies, and informers are crucial to the maintenance of the state.
JOHN: Given what I saw, it’s hard for me to believe that any satan is part of God’s court! JOB: Is it really so hard? Some religious traditions have it. This idea that the Lord gave the satan a mission to this earth is not so strange.15 He is ---------------------------------- 13. For discussion and references, see E. Theodore Mullen, “Divine Assembly,”in The Anchor Bible Dictionary, ed. D. N. Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 214–17. The members of the divine court are called variously: “sons of gods/El” (Ps. 29:1; 89:7), “sons of God” (Deut. 32:8; Gen. 6:2, 4; Job 1:6, 2:1), “sons of Elyon”(Ps. 82:6), “all the gods” (Ps. 97:7), “holy ones” (Deut. 33:2–3), “host of heaven”(Isa. 40:26; Ps. 148:3). The parallelism in Job 38:7—morning stars: sons of God—suggests that the “sons of God” are symbolized as heavenly bodies (stars). 14. In the Neo-Babylonian period, courts were headed by officials called sartennu (the Chief Bailiff). In the Neo-Assyrian empire, the sartennu was a member of the state cabinet and traveled through the empire trying cases. See Ronald Westbrook, ed., A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law, 2 vols. (Leiden: Brill, 2003), 888–90, 919. 15. “The plan of salvation is calculated to make devils as well as Saints, for by and by we shall need some to serve as devils; and it takes almost as much knowledge to make a complete devil as it does to fit a man to go to the celestial kingdom of God and become an heir to His kingdom. . . . Neither you nor I would ever be prepared to be crowned in the celestial kingdom of our Father and our God, without devils in this world. Do you know that the Saints never could be prepared to receive the glory that is in reserve for them, without devils to help them to get it? Men and women never could be prepared to be judged and condemned out of their own mouths . . . without the power both of God and the devil. We are obliged to know and understand them, one as well as the other, in order to prepare us for the day that is coming, and for our exaltation. Some of you may think that this is a curious principle, but it is true. . . . We must know the evil in order to know the good. There must needs be an opposition in all things.” Brigham Young, June 28, 1857, Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (Liverpool and London: Latter-day Saints Book Depot, 1853–1886), 4:372–73. JSmith_Iron_Head.indd 52 6/1/2016 10:39:52 AM Job and John 53 to test humans and be a necessary adversary in a world where there must be opposition in all things. 16 As I now know, this is all that my satan was doing. The satan in my story points to a specific type of satan, an official in God’s court but one who was not evil per se, or, given what you say, not yet evil. I say “yet” because we are so used to a linear story of creation and fall and redemption, but that it is not how it works. My satan points to a being of great power and responsibility; if that is used contrary to God’s will, I think satan would become your Satan, the Great Dragon, evil. Anyway, enough of me. Tell me more about your Satan. He seems much more diabolical in your—what do you call it?—New Testament. ---------------------------------------
JOHN: Indeed, but remember, all such descriptions are but peerings through a dark glass, even when we see them first hand. You know this well. Yes, the New Testament, other early Christian writings, and some Jewish pseudepigrapha17 offer a more devilish image of the Devil, which is why I was surprised at what you said. These descriptions depart to a degree from the emphasis of the ancient satans you have described, and stress the role of Satan—and let’s here finally give him a proper name—as God’s cosmic enemy and adversary of mankind in portrayals that depict him as the ruler of the world18 and the prince of a host of evil spirits and demons.19 This is the Dragon I saw.20 There were many diabolical creatures in my vision, but he was chief among them.
JOB: Wherein is his rebellion? As I have said, my satan was not rebellious. JOHN: Yes, I see that now. My Satan was once called Lucifer, the son of the morning, an angel.21 The allegory of the garden explains his story and motivations.22 ----------------------------------------------- 16. See Abraham 3:25 and 2 Nephi 2:27. 17. e.g., Wisdom 2:24. 18. Matthew 4:8–9. 19. Matthew 25:41. 20. See Revelation 12. 21. Doctrine and Covenants 76:25–26, 28; see also Isaiah 14:4–23, Revelation 12:3–9, Doctrine and Covenants 29:36–45, Abraham 3:27–28; cf. Daniel 8:10– 12, Ezekiel 28:11–19, Luke 10:18, 2 Enoch, 29:4–5. See also Louis Ginzberg, ed., The Legends of the Jews, 7 vols., trans. Henrietta Szold and Paul Radin (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1909–1938; rpt., Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998), 1:62–64, 5:84–86 n. 35. 22. For further discussion, see Jeffrey R. Bradshaw and Ronan J. Head, “Mormonism’s Satan and the Tree of Life,” Element 4, no. 2 (2008): 1–52. JSmith_Iron_Head.indd 53 6/1/2016 10:39:52 AM 54 As Iron Strengthens Iron -----------------------------------------
JOB: Ah yes, his tempting of Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A good Hebrew story. JOHN: Don’t forget the tree of life, which was also forbidden.23 My visions taught me many things. To eat the fruit of the tree of life and thus gain eternal life before passing through mortality was contrary to what God willed. This was rebellion, beyond Satan’s purview! Now, our audience must be careful. This is a story, a myth. Do not get hung up on details—preterist, literalist, historicist, futurist: too many -ists! Let us simply say that the tree of life functions in the garden myth as a holy of holies that can only be approached by the pure. You find this idea in many ancient stories. As I have sensed it, Lucifer’s intent was to have Adam and Eve fall into sin and then damn themselves by entering God’s presence unprepared. It’s a classic trope. As in your story I suppose he is there to test, but he goes beyond what God wanted. By introducing the fruit of the tree of knowledge to Adam and Eve the consequences of the Fall would come upon them, putting them in a position of vulnerability and danger.
JOB: And the danger was eating from the tree of life? JOHN: Precisely! This was the great rebellion against God: to have them eat from the tree of life in their sins. Remember that the angel with the flaming sword was put there by God to guard the way to the tree only once Lucifer’s rebellious plan was unveiled. In this story, his diabolical intent stands for a bigger principle, one which plays out in a myriad of other ways. In this universe, dark is as inevitable as light, but we are not to revel in it, to make it worse, to bend the darkness to our own glory, and to have it be dark everywhere and forever.
JOB: Why do you think he did this? Just because he is evil? JOHN: The memory is dim, but don’t you remember that Lucifer once claimed to us that he wanted to save all mankind? The garden reveals that it would have been in “unrighteousness and corruption,”24 a damnable immortality that destroys the possibility of eternal life. This would have “destroyed the agency of man,”25 not by attempting to compel people to --------------------------- 23. The Samaritan exegesis of Genesis 2:16 specifically excludes the tree of life from the original permission given to Adam and Eve to eat from the trees of the Garden. 24. Brigham Young, October 30, 1870, Journal of Discourses, 13:282. 25. Moses 4:3. JSmith_Iron_Head.indd 54 6/1/2016 10:39:52 AM Job and John 55 do right but rather by eliminating the possibility of a period of probation whereby individuals could exercise their free will. You know as well as I do that to be sinful and mortal is to be human. But to be sinful and immortal . . . well, that is hell, to be subject to his power. Life without death would have become meaningless and without hope and without hope we are listless and damned, with Lucifer our lord. That’s what he wants and the story of his subversion in the garden symbolizes that. ----------------------------
JOB: I much prefer my satan to yours. JOHN: But I think they must both be in there somehow. Don’t you think? The conversation continued, unreported. Then: BOTH (turning to us): We think we have reached an understanding of the satans versus Satan. The satans are those entropic forces that pull at the fabric of unfolding novelty, but are necessary to it. The satans are the meteors that destroy dinosaurs, but open the world to mammals. The beauty of the world is conditioned by its opposite and that is simply the way of God’s universe. To have purpose in such a world means to navigate constant and unrelenting attempts at destruction and desolation but with the hope we can create beauty. To triumph means to find that beauty. God calls us to join in the fray and create meaning. When the satans become Satan, it is only and forever entropy and darkness without meaning, worlds without end.26 The satans are that which is done on all worlds and are necessary to them. The Satan is the enemy, the black hole that seeks to consume all of them. ----------------------------------------- 26. These final sentiments are borrowed liberally from the mind of Steven L. Peck. JSmith_
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Post by rob on Dec 31, 2023 16:41:02 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I read your source document.
Where is your discussion?
Dave writes at the front of the source document" POINT – this is an academic presentation. The author does not have a religious doctrine to promote.
Jewish demonology of the OT did not include satan (G4566 of Hebrew origin), heaven’s prosecutor, an angels of the Lord sometimes asked to do a hard job.
Instead – Jewish demonology of the OT revolved around the ‘other-gods’ of the whole world, and their demons. King Solomon identifies the ‘other-god’ Beelzebul as the king of the demons King Solomon called this group of creature’s shedim King Solomon describes these creatures as – not fully biological and not fully angelic, but in-between – they are invisible to us, yet can appear in biological form, we are told they can appear in multiple forms (shapeshifters) – and they have the ability to manipulate nature (i.e. rain, storms, fertility)
Jesus Christ equated / NT satanas (G4567 of Chaldean origin) with Beelzebub the other-god of the Philistines (Gaza) John tells us this group of creatures = The BEAST of Revelation – the dragon, that ancient serpent, that we call devils and satanas (G4567 of Chaldean origin) – whole deceives the whole world (Rev 12:9-10)"
How is this passage discussing the source document Dave? It is NOT, hence not a discussion.
Hence your source document is NOT supporting you because you never discuss the support?
As a first speaker, you present this source document supporting your theories, well than post the exact words where the source document supports your theories and I will agree with you and this support or disagree with the discussions you raise.
That is how a discussion of support works
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 31, 2023 18:21:07 GMT -5
POINT – this is an academic presentation. The author does not have a religious doctrine to promote.
Jewish demonology of the OT did not include satan (G4566 of Hebrew origin), heaven’s prosecutor, an angels of the Lord sometimes asked to do a hard job.
Instead – Jewish demonology of the OT revolved around the ‘other-gods’ of the whole world, and their demons. King Solomon identifies the ‘other-god’ Beelzebul as the king of the demons King Solomon called this group of creature’s shedim King Solomon describes these creatures as – not fully biological and not fully angelic, but in-between – they are invisible to us, yet can appear in biological form, we are told they can appear in multiple forms (shapeshifters) – and they have the ability to manipulate nature (i.e. rain, storms, fertility)
Jesus Christ equated / NT satanas (G4567 of Chaldean origin) with Beelzebub the other-god of the Philistines (Gaza) John tells us this group of creatures = The BEAST of Revelation – the dragon, that ancient serpent, that we call devils and satanas (G4567 of Chaldean origin) – whole deceives the whole world (Rev 12:9-10)"
How is this passage discussing the source document Dave? It is NOT, hence not a discussion.
It is the point - it is my discussion - it is the REALITY OF THE ARCHON It is what the texts says without religious bias It has nothing to do with your Catholic satan or your satan god of evil in heaven opposing the Creator
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Post by rob on Jan 1, 2024 15:00:13 GMT -5
First Dave, you are too lazy to copy the sentences which support your view because really this source document does not support your view at all . not even close.
You didn't like me reading Gnostic material as presented by the www So your views are really a careful pick of Gnostic views supporting Christianity.
SO again I am sorry this source document does not support your views at all.
Facts
1) "archon" is never mentioned 2) "Satanas" is never mentioned 3) consistent Gnostic theme is not shown
Here is Rob's analysis of this terrible source document for Dave
JOB: I suppose but it depends on who is being an adversary, why, and to whom. In Greek you have this term for “devil”—diabolos—which conveys a roughly similar meaning: “one who throws something across one’s path,” or “obstructor.”2 In the Hebrew tradition we often apply the term satan to human or heavenly figures who block the way of the wrongdoer, with a negative
ROB" Most scholars I read see STN as a hebrew word meaning to oppose, this has to include both verb and noun forms of this word, and obviously your source document does NOT consider this idea at all.
The footnote is designed to confuse readers
"1. The verb occurs only six times in the Hebrew Bible (Psalm 38:21; 71:13; 109:4, 20, 29; Zechariah 3:1) and lacks a Semitic cognate. 2. In 1 Maccabees 1:36, Antiochus IV is called diabolon ponēron—an “evil foe.” Diabolos needed to be qualified by ponēros to make it clear the person in question was indeed wicked. “Devil” in English has, of course, lost this ambiguity. JSmith_Iron_Head.indd 49 6/1/2016 10:39:51 AM"
ROB" the word means to "oppose/ opposer" and this meaning fits all the contexts nicely. "one who throws something across one’s path,” or “obstructor.” does not.
JOB" Yes. Too many to name. There was the angel of the Lord who acted as “a satan” in blocking the path in front of poor Balaam’s ass;8 “the satan,”(with definite article: haśśāṭān) who stood as Joshua the high priest’s accuser in heaven and whom the Lord rebuked;9 and a satan who incited David to take a census of Israel.10 Then there was that satan who made my life so miserable, of course. So you see that we use “satan” as a title given to numerous beings, both human and not, who act as someone’s “adversary,” but not necessarily in opposition to God’s will. On the contrary!
ROB" Readers will note that this source document is speaking of many "satans" in a heavenly sense.
So every time GOD wishes to obstruct somebody, God asks for another angel to do God's bidding?
So there is not a single prosecuting human sins, considering if this function was even possible by an angel. How can for instance can an angel record the sins of 9,000,000,000 humans who miss God's power say 1000 times per day, thats a staggering 10,000,000,000,000 records per day.
That is 2,000,000,000 records per second. Or 2000 records per nanosecond. I am so sorry I do not know of any creature capable of recording sins at this rate, certainly not writing them down. The other major obstacle is the sheer volume of sins recorded would over whelm you. OK let's assume their are 2,000,000,000 angels all functioning as prosecutors as the source document claims. Well OK, so many heavenly satans are possible to achieve this.
But missing begins in your mind, not your hands, so how can angels read inside the human mind where thoughts happen? In my view, they can't. Only GOD can do this.
Question" How come Jews never discuss the inventions they come up with? Do they suppose blind allegiance to their inventions of men?
JOB: Really? All those weird beasts, all that blood and fire! Anyway, my story suggests something that has been going on for a very long time. So long, in fact, that we are not even sure if there was a beginning to it. ROB" SO now we get readers to doubt Scripture more.
Was there a beginning or was there no beginning?
JOB: God brings my, well, perfect righteousness to the satan’s attention and grants him the power to disturb my life, to “prove” me. ROB" Thank you for confirming Jewish views also.
These numerous angels, including THE ANGEL, has the power and permission to disturb Job's life, including killing Job's family. =============
JOHN: So, the Dragon works for God? JOB: Again, caution! I have said nothing about your Dragon! ============== ROB" Readers will note, the misleading seeds of deception planted in the human mind here. That as Dave wants, the suggestion that the dragon creature is a different creature to the numerous billions of angels functioning as God's prosecutor helping to record human sinning's by the trillion.
JOB: This particular satan was a member of the Divine Council, the celestial assembly with God at its center.13 You know the title, “Lord of hosts”? Well, that conveys this idea of the heavenly court which makes up the Lord’s retinue. Imagine it like the royal courts on earth. The Lord is the king and warrior, surrounded by his court and his army. Human courts also include the kind of officials to which the figure of the satan in my story alludes. In judicial courts, prosecutors14 and accusers play important roles, and in the apparatus of imperial government, spies, and informers are crucial to the maintenance of the state.
ROB" readers can be informed that having trillions of angels in a formal court is nothing like a single prosecutor in human courts. In human courts prosecutors are NOT allowed to hurt the humans they are convicting them of crimes, but in the heavenly courts, these angels are allowed to hurt the humans, and than convict them of the sins the angels managed to get them to do because of their trickery. How is that fair? Does this make God fair, who gives permission to angels to do these things?
Really folks this source document is a dribble of confusion to confuse and plant seeds of doubt and cause deception to readers.
JOB: Wherein is his rebellion? As I have said, my satan was not rebellious. ROB" A direct attack on Scripture.
JOB: Ah yes, his tempting of Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A good Hebrew story. ROB" A direct attack on Scripture. The source document is suggesting the story of Adam and Eve is a myth.
Rob quotes" This is a story, a myth. end quote
SO readers can understand that Dave also confirms the story of Adam and Eve is a myth. What else of the sacred torah is a myth? Where does this stop? If there was no first sin, no need for a Saviour and no need for Jesus.
SO the entire Bible is not required for humans.
Dave you cannot have a source document supporting your views, if only parts of it does while the majority of the source document does not support your view.
========== ROB quotes" In this universe, dark is as inevitable as light," this is what Dave wants but was unable to quote it to readers, I asked Dave for his discussion but ROB has to do it for Dave.
This dear readers is a Gnostic sentence, that darkness is a part of GOD's creative power is complete bunkum as far as my view is concerned. ===========
ROB quote" don’t you remember that Lucifer once claimed to us that he wanted to save all mankind?
This dear readers is a Gnostic sentence, that Gnostic believe some other "god" created humans and saves them from the entropy inside of them. However Dave will hoping detail this Gnostic view better for readers, as I have no idea how detail true Gnostic views are. ============
JOB: I much prefer my satan to yours. JOHN: But I think they must both be in there somehow. Don’t you think? ROB" dear readers , in order to deceive the deceptions begin slowly, no mention of satanas as another being to Satan but this is alluded to here, But DAVE does not copy and paste this as support for his theories. OH NO, the reader has to be looking for himself.
However the source document does not use the words directly yet, this is only the beginning of deception.
Plant a seed of deception first and allow the false ideas to grow. ROB quotes " The satans are the meteors that destroy dinosaurs, but open the world to mammals. ROB" so the world was destroyed by meteors, not a global flood? Deception often leads to other deception.
ROB quotes" The satans are that which is done on all worlds and are necessary to them. The Satan is the enemy, the black hole that seeks to consume all of them. ROB" so there is Gnostic too, that entropy exist naturally and so the satan is an enemy, like a black hole?
Now readers will be confused, how does a trillion angels helping God as recording trillions of sins daily for billions of humans, supposed to be now a simile of a big black hole that is God's enemy?
The source document changes the meaning of "satan" into a brand new meaning? Now that is confusion for you?
Summary" Dave I would not use this as source document for your views. Way off the track - also has evolution views, bigger Gnostic views than you admit too, and does not make a consistent theme of the hebrew word STN, is this word about trillions of angels as prosecutors or some black hole naturally in God's domain?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 2, 2024 6:00:14 GMT -5
First Dave, you are too lazy to copy the sentences which support your view APPOLIGIES – OR LEAVE THIS FORUM You cannot validate you Ezk 28 satan god or your two god Great Controversy So you attack - I understand how frustrating it must be to realize that your Ellen White satanic shit is error
This forum is here to study scripture and explore the Christianity of the Book of Acts If you are not able to participate – go away
You didn't like me reading Gnostic material as presented by the www Do you like it when I post Mormon views and say they are yours?
So your views are really a careful pick of Gnostic views supporting Christianity. Do you like it when I post Mormon views and say they are yours?
Repeatedly I have asked you to limit your research to the Nag Hammadi – James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillp, and Thomas – so we can have an honest intelligent discussion You refuse
1) "archon" is never mentioned – word game 2) "Satanas" is never mentioned – word game 3) consistent Gnostic theme is not shown – absolute lie – the theme here = two different satans – one OT Jewish and one NT Catholic
Here is Rob's analysis of this terrible source document for Dave ROB" the word means to "oppose/ opposer" and this meaning fits all the contexts nicely. "one who throws something across one’s path,” or “obstructor.” does not. Just your word game – does not change the message at all
Jewish JOB" Yes. Too many to name. There was the angel of the Lord who acted as “a satan” in blocking the path in front of poor Balaam’s ass;8 “the satan,”(with definite article: haśśāṭān) who stood as Joshua the high priest’s accuser in heaven and whom the Lord rebuked;9 and a satan who incited David to take a census of Israel.10 Then there was that satan who made my life so miserable, of course. So you see that we use “satan” as a title given to numerous beings, both human and not, who act as someone’s “adversary,” but not necessarily in opposition to God’s will. On the contrary!
Yep Hebrew satan = not in opposition to God
Question" How come Jews never discuss the inventions they come up with? Do they suppose blind allegiance to their inventions of men? If all you have to work with is the OT – Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord working for God
JOB: Really? All those weird beasts, all that blood and fire! Anyway, my story suggests something that has been going on for a very long time. So long, in fact, that we are not even sure if there was a beginning to it. ROB" SO now we get readers to doubt Scripture more.
Was there a beginning or was there no beginning? The beginning is clearly stated in scripture – Gen 1:1-4 But not clearly understood until Rev 12:1-5
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JOHN: So, the Dragon works for God? JOB: Again, caution! I have said nothing about your Dragon! Correct – Hebrew satan has nothing to do with the Dragon of Rev 12
============== ROB" Readers will note, the misleading seeds of deception planted in the human mind here. That as Dave wants, the suggestion that the dragon creature is a different creature to the numerous billions of angels functioning as God's prosecutor helping to record human sinning's by the trillion. Absolut lie – be honest or ne gone The more you lie – the less we take you serious ---------------------------------------------
JOB: This particular satan was a member of the Divine Council, the celestial assembly with God at its center. ROB" readers can be informed that having trillions of angels in a formal court is nothing like a single prosecutor in human courts. In human courts prosecutors are NOT allowed to hurt the humans they are convicting them of crimes, but in the heavenly courts, these angels are allowed to hurt the humans, and than convict them of the sins the angels managed to get them to do because of their trickery. How is that fair? Does this make God fair, who gives permission to angels to do these things?
Really folks this source document is a dribble of confusion to confuse and plant seeds of doubt and cause deception to readers.
Roberts Method – smash Hebrew satan together with the Beast of Revelation – and call them the same Robert’s Method cannot tell the difference
Jewish JOB: Wherein is his rebellion? As I have said, my satan was not rebellious. ROB" A direct attack on Scripture. Answer his question – no Jew ever saw Ezk 28 as the birth of your satan god Answer the question – no one ever saw Ezk 28 as the birth of your satan god until Rome invented it
For four years you have been unable to answer this question For four years you have been unable to vakidate that your satan god rebels, hates, and opposes God For four years you have been unable to validate your Ezk 28 satan god
Jewish JOB: Wherein is his rebellion? As I have said, my satan was not rebellious.
ROB" A direct attack on Scripture. You post an unsupported false teaching - and your proud of it
You absolutely deny the spirit and the spiritual - anyone claiming a spiritual encounter is satanic Yet - you blindly follow a prophet that had a spiritual encounter - 2000 even - more than any recorded prophet in history - more that the OT + NT combinded You post an unsupported false and contradictory teaching - and your proud of it
You post an unsupported false and contradictory teaching - and your proud of it ----------------------------------
JOB: Ah yes, his tempting of Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A good Hebrew story. ROB" A direct attack on Scripture. The source document is suggesting the story of Adam and Eve is a myth. Rob quotes" This is a story, a myth. end quote SO readers can understand that Dave also confirms the story of Adam and Eve is a myth.
Just a Robert lie in the form of misrepresenting others (me) All Jews – many Christians – and myself – are happy either way Adam and Eve could be two individuals OR- representative of the first humans
Dave you cannot have a source document supporting your views, if only parts of it does while the majority of the source document does not support your view.
I have post many documents here all making the exact same conclusion OT Hebrew satan is NOT the same as NT satanas You refusal to acknowledge this just smacks to your serious honesty ==========
ROB quotes" In this universe, dark is as inevitable as light," this is what Dave wants but was unable to quote it to readers, I asked Dave for his discussion but ROB has to do it for Dave. Correction – in this universe choshek / ignorance / darkness is a result of physical creation
Gen 1:1 – creation Gen 1:2 – choshek Gen 1:3 - Light
This dear readers is a Gnostic sentence, that darkness is a part of GOD's creative power is complete bunkum as far as my view is concerned. Correct – all Robert has to do is change the order of the first Day od Creation ===========
This dear readers is a Gnostic sentence, that Gnostic believe some other "god" created humans and saves them from the entropy inside of them. However Dave will hoping detail this Gnostic view better for readers, as I have no idea how detail true Gnostic views are. Dear readers – Robert believes that satan and Christ are twin brothers –(Book of Mormon – The Other Testament of Jesus Christ) Is there anything about you that is honest?
============
ROB quotes " The satans are the meteors that destroy dinosaurs, but open the world to mammals. ROB" so the world was destroyed by meteors, not a global flood? Deception often leads to other deception.
WEDD + FD-WEDT – the event that swept the inner solar system 1- swept away our atm allowing the decompression sequence – dating = sea floor expansion 2- threw many space rocks to earth – dating coinciding with = sea floor expansion 3- the Flood of Noah = sea floor expansion
Multiple events occurred in a “rapid and catastrophic event” To suggest one did and another did not is just grade school ignorance
ROB quotes" The satans are that which is done on all worlds and are necessary to them. The Satan is the enemy, the black hole that seeks to consume all of them. ROB" so there is Gnostic too, that entropy exist naturally and so the satan is an enemy, like a black hole? Yep – Jewish Kabbalah is the root of it all – Jewish Mysticism – Gnostic spiritualism – Christianity – even Islam
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Post by rob on Jan 2, 2024 14:45:48 GMT -5
Greetings My apology if I was harsh on you, but you did not discuss the material you posted. D" You cannot validate you Ezk 28R" What? there are millions of SDA who validate Ezek 28, , how many validate your satanas and your archons world wide? So far you have less than a dozen. But according to you, one cannot read Scripture poetry, so half of the Bible is shut down according to you. D" This forum is here to study scripture and explore the Christianity of the Book of Acts If you are not able to participate – go awayR" I think I will, because studying half of the Bible makes no sense, Dave will not read poetry in the Bible, not allowed. D" 1) "archon" is never mentioned – word game 2) "Satanas" is never mentioned – word gameR" wow, so you still see words that do not exist, and yet they support you, like the emperor with no clothes on. ============== D" The beginning is clearly stated in scripture – Gen 1:1-4 But not clearly understood until Rev 12:1-5ROB" well replied to, I will accept this Sometimes you speak seriously and well =========== ROB posted "ROB" Readers will note...Dave wants, ...the dragon creature [as] a different creature to the numerous billions of angels functioning as God's prosecutor... And Dave replies as Correct – Hebrew satan has nothing to do with the Dragon of Rev 12ROB" Thus agrees with my statement above But later Dave says Absolute lie – be honest or be goneROB" See my problem? How emotional are you, I posted what you wanted to hear and you say I lied. Dave" Hebrew satan together with the Beast of Revelation – and call them the same Robert’s Method cannot tell the differenceROB" There is no difference Dave. Nobody agrees with you except this source document makes a mere suggestion, that is all, along your view, I agree. D" Answer his question – no Jew ever saw Ezk 28 as the birth of your satan godRob" Is this source document Jewish? ================= D" For four years you have been unable to vakidate that your satan god rebels, hates, and opposes GodR" well if you do not understand how to read poetry, of course you cannot understand. I pity your blindness to reading poetry. You should learn to write poetry similes on your own. =============== Jewish JOB: Wherein is his rebellion? As I have said, my satan was not rebellious.ROB" A direct attack on Scripture. Dave" You post an unsupported false teaching - and your proud of it ROB" OK, Who killed Job's children in the poetry of JOB? Oh hang on, we are not allowed to read poetry?
The angel functioning as a prosecutor did not kill Job's children did he? Where did the lightning come from? How did the evil humans know the hedge was down? Why does GOD discuss at the council court meeting about his right to save humans? Some claim the Opposer is a servant of GOD, therefore not allowed to be independent. hence not a true opposer/ Question: if all humans are kept alive by GOD, how does a serial killer abusing humans be charged of murder, rape and abuse, when GOD made him stay alive? The serial killer is a servant of the LORD? This is Dave's and the JEWS statement. I read it all the time. Can you answer this question? Jews don't. The serial killer has no independent actions? Yeah right? Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;So the serial killer has no independent powers? How come Jews can't read this sentence correctly? Answer this question Dave? ( JOb 1:12) God says to the serial killer, all you have power for is in thy power, just do not remove your living from me, and I will empower you to do whatever you like. And can the serial killer use powers we normally consider from GOD, like lightning falling from heaven? Sometimes, God allow this...so much power the serial killer has. If JOB was already saved, killing JOB would not have ended his eternal salvation. Yes but it would have ended the story and proved the independent power is more powerful than GOD is. So GOD tells readers the Opposer is always limited in his powers. THis is an important point and gives humans hope. D" Yet - you blindly follow a prophet that had a spiritual encounter - 2000 even - more than any recorded prophet in history - more that the OT + NT combindedR" Have you studied her writings? Try Prophets and Kings or Desire of Ages, and see if she is pushing some religion idea, she only magnifies the torah. D" Two gods – one of tov and one of ra – locked in an eternal cosmic struggle in heaven R" As far as I can tell, Ellen White never terms Satan as a god. You can read her writings yourself. D" I am the one that quotes scripture - no one can oppose GodR" What does this mean? =============== Here is another problem with Dave, he posts source documents and yet refuses to read them carefully "D" Just a Robert lie in the form of misrepresenting others (me) All Jews – many Christians – and myself – are happy either way . Adam and Eve could be two individuals OR- representative of the first humansROB" Dave, I repeat what the source document said JOB: Ah yes, his tempting of Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A good Hebrew story. Rob quotes" This is a story, a myth". end quote STOP misquoting the source document, and stop saying I am lying? Are you mad? I know you support Adam and Eve. I know you love Genesis and are proud of your theories of expanding earth. I am happy for you with these science published papers. You did are great job. But this source document is totally against your views in publishing Adam as a myth, and also quotes evolution too. You cannot as you did, post a source document for the bits you like and at the same time ignore the bits you don't like. You could have done what I did with Gerald Schroeder, publish the good bits his speaks about in his video, and be ignorant to the other bits he failed to discuss. How was I to know he loves evolution more than he admits too? I would have just posted the bits that support you and leave the rest of the source document unpublished. But you didn't do this. ============ D" I have post many documents here all making the exact same conclusion OT Hebrew satan is NOT the same as NT satanasROB" Not so, this source document also speaks of evolution and Adam ad Eve as a myth. You are blind to reading this. Sure some pithy remarks might support you.... agree. But hardly a whole passage using archons and satanas over and over, but you are blind to this and make your religion consist of word games with words that nobody uses. ============= D" Is there anything about you that is honest?ROB" Sure I quoted things directly and you say I liedRob quotes" This is a story, a myth". end quote And Dave replied with "D" Just a Robert lie in the form of misrepresenting others (me)
I would never post things that do not support me fully, but in ignorance maybe I have, you point out Gerald Schroeder for instance. Hmm? Maybe you are blind to the other parts of the source document. I think I can understand you. ================== ROB quotes" The satans are that which is done on all worlds and are necessary to them. The Satan is the enemy, the black hole that seeks to consume all of them.Dave" Yep – Jewish Kabbalah is the root of it all ROB" so this word "satan' is still about a prosecuting angel, as a black hole, consuming us all? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 2, 2024 17:25:59 GMT -5
D"You cannot validate you Ezk 28 R" What? there are millions of SDA who validate Ezek 28, , 1.8 billion people say there is no god but Allah and no one can war against him – and god has no son It is a false anologyD" This forum is here to study scripture and explore the Christianity of the Book of Acts If you are not able to participate – go away R" I think I will because - no one here will bow to your Ellen White satan godAND No one here agrees with your ability to rewrite scripture as you choose to bend it into an Ellen White doctrine============== D"The beginning is clearly stated in scripture – Gen 1:1-4 But not clearly understood until Rev 12:1-5 ROB" well replied to, I will accept this =========== Dave" Hebrew satan together with the Beast of Revelation – and call them the same Robert’s Method cannot tell the difference ROB" There is no difference Dave. and there is he proof================= Question: if all humans are kept alive by GOD, how does a serial killer abusing humans be charged of murder, rape and abuse, when GOD made him stay alive? The serial killer is a servant of the LORD? This is Dave's and the JEWS statement. I read it all the time. Can you answer this question? Jews don't.Because it is a nonsense question You take OT Hebrew satan and NT satanas and mix them together just to create nonsesne
D" Yet - you blindly follow a prophet that had a spiritual encounter - 2000 even - more than any recorded prophet in history - more that the OT + NT combined R" Have you studied her writings? Two gods – one of tov and one of ra – locked in an eternal cosmic struggle in heaven Is enough for me!R" As far as I can tell, Ellen White never terms Satan as a god. You can read her writings yourself. The Great Controversy and God's Love for HumanityAdventist.org - www.adventist.org › the-great-controversy All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe.Two gods – one of tov and one of ra – locked in an eternal cosmic struggle in heaven – fighting over God’s throne – God’s very right to rule His own creation You have taught this here for four years – why are you not willing to support your own teaching D"I am the one that quotes scripture - no one can oppose God You argue that I am wrong – scripture is wrong – anyone opposing man is opposing GodI would never post things that do not support me fully, Which is it Robert – Satan opposing the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. – as Ellen White teaches OR Not in heaven opposing God right to rule the universe" No creature can do they, so why even say this idea? =============== D" I have post many documents here all making the exact same conclusion OT Hebrew satan is NOT the same as NT satanas ROB" Not so Your denial means nothing – you have proven that you have zero credibility You argue doctrine for four years and now say it was all a lie D" Is there anything about you that is honest?
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Post by rob on Jan 3, 2024 22:28:36 GMT -5
This thread is supposed to be about John and Job - the Satans
You mocked my serial killer story, saying the Satan, a good angel is different to the Devil, a Satanas creature the archon beast.
The book of JOB is about two different creatures. Is it? Prove this idea using Job only?
Jews say God gathers a celestial court... the Sons of GOD, and the Satan also comes
Question: How come the archons are not invited? Question: Why not the host of heaven not invited?
It is assumed that this meeting happens in heaven, I agree with some video authors that the meeting might have happened on earth, for the meeting is over the feasts and the feast concern appointed times, so at appointed times the humans who love God gather, and so does GOD visit them. And it seems the Satan came to visit them ,walking up and down the earth.
The context is a feast, appointed times and Job doing salvation process. Got nothing to do with judgement, or celestial court, or the host of heaven.
Job 1:8 God asks the Opposer about God's process in saving Job being complete a Hebrew word called tam.
The Opposer opposes the idea saying Job's salvation is not complete. not tam.
Here is proof the Opposer is Opposing the salvation process, because the Opposer is saying the Job is NOT tam and God is saying JOB is tam. Proof the Opposer is opposing God, and preventing God from doing salvation to humans.
Now regarding your John and John- the Satans presentation, that some other evil does the killing of Job's children, and the lightning falls from heaven, etc.
If that is so, why does GOD allow the "good angel" to have powers over Job?
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto "good angel", Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;
Question: what does the "good angel" do with this power from God? Investigate if Job sins? Hardly... how do I know this?
Job 2:3 ....and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Here GOD is complaining to the "good angel" that the angel moved GOD without a cause to destroy JOB.
So the "good angel" is no "good angel" just investigating Job's sins.
Are Jews hoping readers can't read the torah or what?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2024 0:56:22 GMT -5
This thread is supposed to be about John and Job - the Satans Yep an OT Jew and a NT Catholic discussion their different versions of satan They do not agree – not even close JOB: I much prefer my satan to yours.
The book of JOB is about two different creatures. Is it? Prove this idea using Job only? What does this even mean- it what is it in reference to?
Jews say God gathers a celestial court... the Sons of GOD, and the Satan also comes Question: How come the archons are not invited? Sons of GOD = archon – same sons of God of Gen 6 = archon
It is assumed that this meeting happens in heaven, No you don’t – you teach the sons of God are sons of Seth – no biological men in heaven Have you changed you entire theology? Or are you lying now or were you lying then? Please present a consistent argument – is that possible?
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Post by rob on Jan 4, 2024 5:24:23 GMT -5
Greetings
Why did you stop with my questions?
D" Archons are Sons of God.
R" Not even close.
If you look up all the lines upon line, you find SOns of God refer to children of the Most High who are always with yester TOV, not with Yester RA.
Second the Greek word archons, means "sar" a term for a function, one who rules.
If they were rulers of other unfallen worlds, than they arn't archons, as archons are rulers with yester RA within and have no free will to serve and worship God out of love.
FOr the life of me cannot understand why Jews see angels functioning without free will, where is their love and loving for God?
D" you teach the sons of God are sons of Seth – no biological men in heaven
R" I do not, quote me. I have said the Sons of God are other rulers or sars from other unfallen worlds gathering with GOD, over the appointed times, as JOb does on earth. We do not know what these other creatures are I ( as creatures) on other unfallen worlds.
Now answer the other points
Job 1:8 God asks the Opposer about God's process in saving Job being complete a Hebrew word called tam.
The Opposer opposes the idea saying Job's salvation is not complete. not tam.
Here is proof the Opposer is Opposing the salvation process, because the Opposer is saying the Job is NOT tam and God is saying JOB is tam. Proof the Opposer is opposing God, and preventing God from doing salvation to humans.
Now regarding your John and John- the Satans presentation, that some other evil creature does the killing of Job's children, and the lightning falls from heaven, etc.
If that is so, why does GOD allow the "good angel" to have powers over Job?
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto "good angel", Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;
Question: what does the "good angel" do with this power from God? Investigate if Job sins? Hardly... how do I know this?
Job 2:3 ....and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Here GOD is complaining to the "good angel" that the "good angel" moved GOD without a cause to destroy JOB.
So the "good angel" is no "good angel" just investigating Job's sins.
Are Jews hoping readers can't read the torah or what?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2024 8:52:42 GMT -5
Why did you stop with my questions? Have answered your same questions – over and over Post something new and intelligent – or don’t – your choice
D" Archons are Sons of God. R" Not even close. If you look up all the lines upon line, you find SOns of God refer to children of the Most High who are always with yester TOV, not with Yester RA.
Gen 6:1 Now when humankind began to multiply on the face of the ground and daughters were born to them, Gen 6:2 then the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were good and they took for themselves wives, any they chose.
D" you teach the sons of God are sons of Seth – no biological men in heaven R" I do not
You argued many times – Gen 6 cannot be about heavenly creatures – not messengers (angels) You argued the Sethian point of view – these were just the sons of Seth You cannot even be honest about your own teaching OR – have you completely changed your theology? Or – are you you just posting bullshit to prove your insincerity and lack of honesty ---------------------------------------------
Now answer the other points We have been all over the Book of Job – you just want to argue in circles
Job 1:8 Adonai said to the satan, “Did you notice my servant Job? It is not a sin – or a transgression of any law to be honest with the Lord
Now regarding your John and John- the Satans presentation, that some other evil creature does the killing of Job's children, and the lightning falls from heaven, etc.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto "good angel", Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; If that is so, why does GOD allow the "good angel" to have powers over Job? The only power Hebrew satan has is to accuse man – oppose man - - call out man’s sin
Question: what does the "good angel" do with this power from God? Investigate if Job sins? Hardly... how do I know this?
Job 2:3 ....and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Job 2:3 - though you incited Me against him to ruin him without any reason. God test His people – satan is not forcing God to do anything God does already do Your idea that your satan god can push the Lord around and make God react is satantic nonsense
In the Book of Job – God tested Job In the book of Job – God used satan and the world to do it In the Book of Job – Job remained faithful to God no matter what the world did to him – or his family In the Book of Job – God told satan – accuse away – won’t do any good with Job
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Post by rob on Jan 4, 2024 15:55:02 GMT -5
Question why would GOD test JOB if God declared JOB was tam ? It was the Opposer that said JOB was not tam.
You are mocking the meaning of tam.
You also mock the meaning of "destroy" 01104. elb bala`, beh'-lah
Ge 41:7 And the seven thin ears devoured the seven rank and full ears
Ex 7:12 ..but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Ps 55:9 ¶ Destroy, O Lord,
ROB" I see, so according to you the angel asked GOD to destroy Job and GOD destroyed JOB is that it?
Job 2:3 although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. So God destroyed Job, but did so without a cause? It that your view?
What about God declaring Job was tam? Meaning complete.
What I don't get from Jewish and Dave's view here, is why would a good angel say this opposing thing in the first place? Such a thing against GOD is a sin by definition.
SO GOD is promoting sin in heaven, and if God says so, its OK
You say GOD murders, and tempts humans to sin, (has a department for that).
You have a dictator, not a relational power of love.
I hope your dictator view of the Father works out for you Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2024 18:40:19 GMT -5
Question why would GOD test JOB if God declared JOB was tam ? It was the Opposer that said JOB was not tam. Not what the verse says – it says if you test Him - Job will eventually sinJob 1:8 Adonai said to the satan, “Did you notice my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth—a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil.” Job 1:9 Then the satan responded to Adonai, saying, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Job 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him, his household, and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands and his possessions have increased in the land. Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!” You are mocking the meaning of tam. YIKES! Ellen G. White Called Jesus a LIAR?!If you follow Ellen White you are redeemed and cannot sin Sorry Robert – man can sin and turn away right up till the moment of death The mainstream expression = I was saved – I am being saved – and I will be saved You also mock the meaning of "destroy" 01104. elb bala`, beh'-lah ROB" I see, so according to you the angel asked GOD to destroy Job and GOD destroyed JOB is that it? H1104 – בָּלַע - bâla‛ - baw-lah' A primitive root; to make away with (specifically by swallowing); generally to destroy: - cover, destroy, devour, eat up, be at end, spend up, swallow down (up). If Job sins – what is the punishment – destruction / death – Lake of Fire – muth muthJob 2:3 although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. So God destroyed Job, but did so without a cause? It that your view? Nope – God tested Job as God test all menYou say GOD murders, and tempts humans to sin, (has a department for that). I say God is not tov only from your definition – because God does kill and orders genocide I say God is tov by my definition because it is the end result that matters – God’s Plan – God’s Will I don’t say it – James does Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. God does uses the BEAST / ARCHON / and the seed of the BEASTGen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.” All God’s Plan – all God’s Will – God did itYou have a dictator, not a relational power of love.Nope I have a Jewish God that created the tov and the ra and placed man in the middle of it and established the CONTEST of Gen 3:14-24
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Post by rob on Jan 5, 2024 17:45:05 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" Not what the verse says – it says if you test Him - Job will eventually sinHmm? Sir you did not read torah correctly Job 1:5 Feasting at the Appointed time Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect "tam" and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? What does "tam" mean? Jacob <was a plain <tam> man Why translate tam as plain?? Ps 37:37 Mark the perfect <tam> man, Now why is the translation perfect? Pr 29:10 ¶ The bloodthirsty hate the upright "tam": Certain humans hate the tam. Song 6:9 My dove, my undefiled "tam" is but one So "tam" means to be perfect, undefiled, sinless even. But the bloodthirsty hate tam humans 1) If God was really speaking to a good angel, why is the angel termed "the opposer" ? 2) Why does the good angel negate God's declaration of Job, that Job is tam? A sinless good angel is not allowed to speak against what God has spoken. Php 4:8 , whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Instead the good angel, was sinning by definition and speaking lies, about the real meaning of "tam". 3) Why would GOD be interested in making Job sin? D" Sorry Robert – man can sin and turn away right up till the moment of death The mainstream expression = I was saved – I am being saved – and I will be saved ROB" So you mock the Verse written by John? 1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Please explain. D" Nope – God tested JobROb" DUring Job's life, God tested JOB. But after many days upon the feast at the appointed time, God eventually declares JOb as "tam". Hence complete, undefiled, perfect, no more testing required. How come you do not consider the word "tam"?
Do you agree with this process or "tam" ?
D" I don’t say it – James does Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire.How can one be tempted by his own desire? Clearly some good angel asked Job to be tempted more, so clearly Job was tempted by some good angel asking God to tempt Job some more, ( not tempted by Job himself) but James says GOD never tempts humans to sin. You have some explaining to do here? D" God does uses the BEAST / ARCHON / and the seed of the BEASTR" This is a violation of James. God does not tempt humans to sin. You say God has a department to do that is also false. God does not tempt humans to sin, ever.God can try you, the positive meaning of the Hebrew word, but never does GOD use the negative meaning of the word, to tempt. Ge 22:1 ¶ And it came to pass after these things , that God did tempt <nacah> Abraham This is a terrible translation. Nacah in a positive meaning means to "test" or "try" In a negative meaning means to "tempt to sin" I can understand your problem, a Hebrew word can have positive and negative meanings depending upon its context. Again Jeff Benner principle. So who is the good angel asking GOD to tempt Job to sin? By definition cannot be a good angel at all, but the Opposer, opposing the salvation process in humans, thus opposing God's right to save humans. Question: is the word "tam" associated at the end or the beginning of the salvation process? Job 1:8 ... a perfect and an upright man, The verse tells you using parallel logic, incase you miss the word meaning. And in case you fail to understand Ps 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: f or the end of that man is peace. Notice the "tam" is declared at the "end" of that man, is peace. No further testing nacah is required. So why did the "sinning angel" ask GOD to allow God to further tempt the human to sin? because the "sinnng angel" failed to get Job to sin, a long time ago, and so make excuses, typical of his liars, and the father of lies. Did God accept his challenge? yes Jews say the Opposer is a servant of GOD? In fact all creatures are insubordinate to God, does not mean they love God and free will follow Him. Using all the powers given Him, the sinning angel destroys Job's children and assets. D" Nope I have a Jewish God that created the tov and the ra and placed man in the middle of it and established the CONTEST of Gen 3:14-24 R" Why did GOD create tov and ra? If RA cannot exist unless God allows it to exist, so humans define and see RA, why does RA exist? Can you answer that question? You say natural RA exists, is complete bogus idea. There is nothing natural about RA. So why does GOD allow RA to exist if RA is totally alien to GOD? Can you answer that question? the Einstein video did? Did you watch it? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 6, 2024 3:09:14 GMT -5
D" Sorry Robert – man can sin and turn away right up till the moment of death The mainstream expression = I was saved – I am being saved – and I will be saved
ROB" So you mock the Verse written by John? I mock you and Ellen White's claim of perfection
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. How can one be tempted by his own desire? Clearly some good angel asked Job to be tempted more, Correct – you deny scripture – you need you blame your sin on another Do not ever deny this again It is the only reason you want satan to be the the god of evil It wasn’t Eve’s fault – it was satan’s fault It is not your fault – it is satan’s fault You are looking for a scapegoat - you are making excuses
D"God does uses the BEAST / ARCHON / and the seed of the BEAST R" This is a violation of James. God does not tempt humans to sin. Now you deny Gen 3:14-24
D" Nope I have a Jewish God that created the tov and the ra and placed man in the middle of it and established the CONTEST of Gen 3:14-24
R" Why did GOD create tov and ra? You already know the Jewish answer You already know my answer Within creation = function and balance + programmed end Within humanity = To seek the Jobs / Prodigal Sons / First Fruits
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