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Post by Dave on Oct 25, 2023 12:38:55 GMT -5
Yep – (yester tov) spiritual –vrs- (yester ra) corporeal God created - HEAVEN invisible ethereal incorruptible spiritual tov - and earth visible physical corruptible corporeal comes with ra ROB" If good and bad is designed in the DNA, than it's no longer a choice of freedom.1- the choice is not netween good DNA and bad DNAThe choice is not between good biology and bad biology The choice is not between good world and bad world DNA is only biology and biology is only beast / animal – (yeter ra) All DNA animals live by (yester ra) 2- the choice is between God and world – spiritual or corporealMan has is spirit inside the animal - and the spirit knows better (yester tov) We came from heaven - souljourn here as biology to witness - only to return to God We came from heaven - souljourn here as biology - and make choices - only to return to God and be judged by our choices---------------------------------------------------- www.wondriumdaily.com/rabbinic-judaism-the-view-of-good-evil-in-the-jewish-tradition/Jewish people view good and evil differently than Christians.Yep - Jesus - His Disciples - His followers were Jewish They were 100% Jewish culturally and theologically Their teaching was Jewish + Jesus as the Messiah
300 years later Catholics invented Catholic satan and now Ellen White teaches Zoroastrianism
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Post by rob on Oct 25, 2023 15:49:00 GMT -5
Greetings Dave ========first post============= Dave" In the Torah it was LAW – not a health suggestionROb" Show me a verse where the word "LAW" is implied regarding diet restrictions. The word "torah" means "teachings" , not "law". Dave" Paul, James, and Peter are not in the TorahRob" Prove this idea of yours? James quote the OT torah, so that makes his of the OT torah? Dave" Paul and John – introduced spiritual Christianity – Torah laws replacedRob" Another falsehood idea Dave? Show me one verse where Paul speaks against the OT torah? Dave" Any other teaching than monotheism is totally rejected!ROb" I suggest we study Gordon's word study of elohiym than. He is a Messanic Jew too. You have not done this, and it will show where Jews go wrong. Dave" ONLY ONE GOD - and he is ABSOLUTE!ROb" If the torah wanted to express the idea of a cardinally one el, called the father, it would simply discuss the "eoah" as "El" and leave the discussion at that. But the torah Does NOT do this. It discusses "mich"el" and "el shadday" and introduces other divine functions like "ruwach" or "medium". Why introduce "YHWH" when the torah could have just used "eloah" all the time, but the torah does not do this? Dave" For the rabbis of the talmudic period … do not add up to a coherent theodicy, Who cares what the Talmud says?ROB" SO you are happy NOT to support Jewish talmud? Where than does your inspiration come from? A Jew has to be influenced by torah as well as talmud. Both are important in Jewish eyes. But Dave says "who cares"? Dave" Yep – ONY ONE GOD – no room for a god of evilROB" so the word "elohiym" can only mean "eloah" from which the word "elohiym" comes from. Does this word only mean "eloah" who flows? What does a Messanic Jew like Gordon actually save, and his study is detailed. -------------- RobPP" Some Jewish rabbi say evil and good both were designed and created by God for some grand purpose.Dave" You have introduced this idea to me – but I get it – don’t you?ROB" NO Dave, I don't get it. Jews say darkness is a simile of sin. Correct. I get that. Agree. But than they say darkness comes first, God saw the darkness over earth and said let their be light. No darkness is not first. Jews do not consider sinning was over the earth when GOD visited the angels sinning banished to earth. God does not create evil for some grand purpose. NO, the RA is created as a result of a creature wishing to sin. WHAT IF? David Icke says. WHAT IF Adam had never sinned and Eve never sinned, and the sinning angels never got humans to sin. So Jesus never had to come to die for their sins. What we miss anything of God's love for mankind? Like saying the son who stayed home and never sinned like the prodigal son, did that son have a lesser experience of love for his dad? Like saying, is it necessary to smoke drugs in order to experience living a life without smoking drugs? Does the bad help us appreciate the good? Did Paul write this perhaps in the NT torah? Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. I do not see why free will choice requires a option from good and evil, when good is all we truly ever need. So I drive a car, and there is a red button on the dashboard, if I push the button the car will experience faults and problems which I can never fix on my car ever. Would I be tempted to push the red button. A temptor says, if you push the red button your driving experience will be so much more fun. So when is driving without brakes fun, or having faulty steering, or running off the road? DaVE" God created the tov and the ra and gave man choice - to serve the greater goodROB" In Eden the tree of GOOD, was not called the tree of Good and Evil. The tree of GOOD was termed the tree of living. eating its fruit made you live forever without sin. Only the other tree was termed good and evil, and is made as a choice when you sin, like the word "arum" means, only "arum" creatures become "Arum" when they sin. But you never consider this idea. Dave" Duh – the first step in creation = expansion away from the initial source = raROB" Sorry, but I do not see RA as some natural element of arrows in God's array of creation. RA only comes from SIN and the fruit of SIN. Cursing the ground is a good example of natural RA, came after Adam sinned. Dave" The HS is the matrix / ether of reality – the base E that sustains the ALL at the sub-atomic holographic levelROB" correct. but the medium came only when sinning angels sinned. Before this the el SHADDAY never needed to be a ruwach medium. Have you ever considered this idea? Dave" The reason why evil exists is because free will creatures decide to sin. Why do you actively teach against the NT?Rob" correct well said. Why dont you support this post of yours? The reason why evil exists is because free will creatures decide to sin. Correct SO why do you teach GOD created RA for some designed purpose, if RA comes from evil and evil comes from SIN? ---------------- 5) " evil is blamed on Satan and various malicious demons who are at the root of the trouble caused to the righteous (Ber. 6a; Gen. R. 84:3). Rob" So some Jewish Rabbi do see evil coming from a sinning Opposer of God.Dave" NOPE – read it again – where does this say anything about opposing God?ROB" hair splitting Dave. OK but some Jews see evil comes from a HA_SATAN, at the root of the trouble. (same as my view) ------------------- 6) Maimonides also views evil as a nonexistence, namely the absence of good, which could not have been produced by God. Dave" I agree – entropy of thought – sin results from forgetting what you already know – right and wrongROB" OK, so GOD did not create RA and TOV as you claim for humans to live on earth, where RA already existed because as you said earlier "The reason why evil exists is because free will creatures decide to sin" The cherubs there are free will creatures who decided to sin, are already living on earth, ie darkness. Maimonides also views evil as a nonexistence, namely the absence of good, which could not have been produced by God. And Dave "agrees" to Rob's statement. Dave" Correct – NATURE – in nature shit happens in the worldROB" In a world of TOV, eating food would have 100% soluble fibre, and 100% free living bacteria. SO no need to excrete decomposed food, the bacteria would pass out (assuming this function existed) and continue living on the ground as they did before, without death. Even in a world of RA from SIN, pooh is 99% bacteria still, but they die upon reaching the ground and the iron colouring is also a mix of dead red blood cells. So there is a reminder of death, in the consequence of Sin. ------ Dave mocks Robert using RA examples. Deformities come from corruption in the DNA, a result of GOD cursing Adam after Adam sinned. Dave" Robert insist – if your child is born deformed – it is because your father sinned"ROB" Hmm? correct. Our corrupt DNA comes from God's cursing Adam after Adam sinned. hence our DNA is corrupt from the parents who inheried corrupt DNA before us and their parents before them, back to ADAM, the first human whose DNA was cursed by GOD when Adam sinned. Dave: " Robert insist – if an earthquake swallows you – it is the result of your sinROb" Hmm? When Adam sinned, God cursed the ground, So the ground shakes and moves, and quakes. So a general entropy began when Adam sinned. Quakes do not come from your personal sins, though some in PNG consider this idea, when volcanoes came (1997, I was there personally) , and the city of Rabaul were supposed to be SDA Christians, plus others, but the city became back sliders, so they consider the quakes as a result of their sinning. Dave" The cause of this type of evil is the fact that man has a body which is subject to corruption and destruction.ROB" Can you prove this claim to me using Jewish quotes? Because we totally disagree on the origins of RA. Dave" NATURE – this is how God created us ROB" NO, not as I see it, God curses nature when Adam sinned. Can you prove your claim to me using Jewish quotes? -----------" - Maimonides" The third class of evil, the largest and most frequent class, is the evil which the individual brings upon himself through his vices and excessive desires. Dave" YESTER RA!ROB" aven. I do not have to invent Hebrew words from different places in a verse to make traditions and precepts of men, the Hebrew word meaning exists all by itself. --------------- Chabad.org" T hus G‑d created a world in which goodness and evil are equal optionsDave" Yep – God did it – tov and the ra – a functional natureROB" Is 45:7 says God forms peace and creates RA. GOD is not going to create both a peaceful creation and a violent creation. The free will option for non-peace comes only into existence, after the free will option is exercised, not before. If you think RA was created along with TOV, show me Jewish quotes that say this clearly. Dave" Man = tov and ra in equal measureROB" NO , not like this. Adam was only 100% TOV. The tree of life was 100% TOV. It's roots did not go into both tov and ra soil. Bogus idea. The SECOND tree was termed good and evil, because pure evil cannot exist as a choice. Hence pure evil cannot exist as a choice on jt's own. So when you choose to sin, GOD creates your choice to be observed in a world of good, otherwise you would not be allowed even to exist. But you cannot fathom my idea can you? Hence tree of GOD's world (TOV) with your world (RA). Chabad.org" G‑d thus created evil. Not so that humanity would choose it, but so that humanity could choose it. Could, but hopefully wouldn't.ROB" weird. If GOD created RA along with TOV, but hopefully humanity wouldn't choose RA, how can they not choose it, if the RA already exists as a choice? A gun with a bullet can kill others humans, but I choose not to do the RA of hareg. A mouth loaded with mocking can wound others of a chance of seeking salvation from GOD, but I choose not to wound others with hurtful words of abuse. If I walk with GOD I experience light, I can only experience darkness when I choose to sin, thus asking GOD to walk further from me, exposing me in darkness. If you look are all three examples of RA, they do not naturally exist as examples in my world, until I choose to bring them into my world. Thus the human does not create evil, until the human chooses to create the evil. Until than choice is exercised, the evil does not exist. Really Jews write weird things. God never created evil. period. God created a world to allow evil to exist should humans choose, but this is different to saying the choice of evil naturally existed before humans made that choice. Dave" The opposite of being robotsROB" No it's not. I have never smoked. Why do I need to? I have never take drugs either. But Dave has in the past I believe? Why is experiencing RA a way to experience a greater good? Dave" Choose what – in a tov only creation – what is man’s Free Will choice? – only tovROB" What? So the TOV human cannot drive off the road and run into a tree? So the TOV human cannot ask GOD please walk away from me, I want to sit in darkness. If love comes with free will, the other option always exists, but those in perfect love, never have any need to exercise the other option. Why should I do drugs? Out of body experience, they say? And this helps me to experience what I say? They reply if you have never tried it, you do not know what you are missing? And I say, if you live totally in God's power, I get a out of body experience that is beyond words too. So how is my choice anymore unreal than your choice? You do not understand my choice and I do not understand your choice. Dave" The gun never appeared in Eve's hand until AFTER she pulled the triggerRob" In a idom sense, that is correct Dave. Once you choose to do drugs, only than does the out of body experience come over your mind. Once you meekly seek GOD and commune with God spirit to spirit, do you experience an out of body experience that the human cannot explain. I write this to show you my words cannot be fathomed by your experience. You claim the natural spark of your own spirit has some communion with GOD as spirit. We cannot understand each other because your view is different to my view. We read the same torah but see and experience words differently. Dave" Eve had no choice - until she made a choice - then the options of choces appearedROB" Eve always had a choice, and until she made her choice, than the consequence of that choice was created for her by GOD. My out of body experience in taking drugs always exists before me, but I do not exercise that choice. No need to. It's not more exciting than the choices I already make in GOD though faith. Dave" Yes – Catholics invented Catholic satanROB" so because ROB develops a doctrine around "aven" means I invented the doctrine, is pure bogus Dave. The Hebrew message of "aven" comes from the torah alone, and most readers of the torah never understand all things of the torah. this includes Jews too. --------------- Jewish idea" It is rooted in the idea that the behavior of good or evil is anchored in basic human impulses existing essentially from the creation. Dave supports Jewish idea" Yep – (yester tov) spiritual –vrs- (yester ra) corporeal So we live our lives by (yester ra) – but deep inside (yester tov) is convicting us of our wrong choices ROB" I see. RobPP" Now Dave I wish you to respond to these Jewish statements. Dave" – easy – all my beliefs Enjoyable for a changeROB" Good I would love to read some more Jewish quotes regarding their views, but first we need to read Gordon's assessment of elohiym. Please create a thread to discuss Gordons assessment of elohiym. Dave" PS I have finished my second draft - made changes per your suggestions Please look it over - read it - it really is who I amROB: provide link please, and I will read it for you ========second post========== Dave's second post" DNA is only biology and biology is only beast / animal – (yeter ra) All DNA animals live by (yester ra)ROB" Prove to me Jews understand that man is NOT governed by the biology within us, but that free will choice comes from the "spark" or "some spirit" that is independent from the biology? Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity "aven", and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity "aven", and sow wickedness, reap the same. 9 By the blast "namashah"of God they perish, and by the breath "ruwach" of his nostrils are they consumed. ROB" The aven, is a biological DNA recording system of our potential, both good and bad, that is a part of human makeup. Job 4:15 Then "a spirit" passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: ROB" "Then "the HS (ruwach)"... Job 4:6 ....and I heard a voice, saying, 17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? ROB" the HS speaks to humans via the conscience in our mind, is written many times in the torah. Job 15:35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity "aven", and their belly prepareth deceit. ROB" the aven is a biological recording system of our habits of good and evil, and thus our epi-genetic potential is inherited from our parents. Adam and Eve had no inherited potential as they were made sinless and perfect. Any human born after Adam come with minds "sinless" but our bodies are no longer "perfect" as we are born with the sinful traits of our parents potentials before us. Ps 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity "aven". Ps 28:3 Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity "aven", which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief "ra" is in their hearts. ROB" verses like this show "Aven" records pet sinnings, even the RA within the heart. Ps 66:18 If I regard iniquity "aven" in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: ROB" Our prayers are not heard if we have active epigenetic potentials to sin within our hearts. This is a powerful verse, that requires us to ask GOD to help us remove these genetic habits of sinning we do. Ps 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity? ROB" workers of "aven" is a phrase used many times in the torah. wickPs 101:8 (GOD) will... cut off all wicked "aven" doers from the city ROB" GOD cuts of all aven doers from the cities. Pr 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked "Aven" imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief "RA", ROB" the "Aven" is a common theme even in the heart, and the immaginations of the heart, to do RA. Much more powerful than the Jewish inventions of yetser RA. Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain "Aven" thoughts lodge within thee? ROB" Again the "aven thoughts" in the heart, cause our minds to choose RA and SIN. Question" When does the aven thoughts kick in for a child? When they reach pubity, around 14 to 16 years old. You can raise a fostered child in good ways until this age, and as soon as the aven genes awaken inherited traits from their parents, the teenager begins to function like their parents did, despite all those early years of goodness from the foster parent. The "Aven thoughts" are very powerful influence upon the "free will of the mind". Lu 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. Here is a cross reference to "Aven" into the NT torah. Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity "aven": so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. ROB" Interesting words from James about "Aven". 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness "aven". ROB" Jesus promises to remove our "aven", and thus we can have our free will back, without potential influences to sin. NOW I show you this Hebrew word "Aven" to discuss how and where can "a spirit spark" come into this , as you suggest, I cannot find a single Verse to your claim, in fact the soul is only governed by the flesh. You will have to show Jewish quotes to prove your claims. You will also note this torah doctrine is not Jewish, not SDA and not Catholic, it comes brand new to you from reading and studying the torah only. I found the Hebrew word meaning from reading Jeff Benner, so it is his influence that formed this hebrew in my mind. ----------- Dave" Man has is spirit inside the animal - and the spirit knows better (yester tov)ROB" Jewish quotes to back up your claim? ---------- Shalom my friend
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Post by Dave on Oct 25, 2023 21:56:35 GMT -5
Dave" For the rabbis of the talmudic period … do not add up to a coherent theodicy, Who cares what the Talmud says? ROB" SO you are happy NOT to support Jewish talmud? Where than does your inspiration come from? A Jew has to be influenced by torah as well as talmud. Both are important in Jewish eyes. But Dave says "who cares"? Proof you are only here to play games Proof you do not take this conversation seriously at all Proof that you cannot hear me
You know there are two types of Jews Sadducees + Talmund + Law and Pharisees + Kabbalah + Christian ideology
Mormons call themselves Christian – why do you accept their teaching? The JW call themselves Christian – why do you support their teaching? --------------
RobPP" Some Jewish rabbi say evil and good both were designed and created by God for some grand purpose. Dave" You have introduced this idea to me – but I get it – don’t you? ROB" NO Dave, I don't get it. You don’t want to understand – you don’t want to see the bigger picture – you just want to argue words -------------------------------------------
I do not see why free will choice requires a option from good and evil, when good is all we truly ever need. If you only have tov as a choice – you have no options What other choice do you have - if tov is the only choice?
DaVE" God created the tov and the ra and gave man choice - to serve the greater good ROB" In Eden the tree of GOOD, was not called the tree of Good and Evil. Nope – Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. -------------------------------
Dave" ONLY ONE GOD - and he is ABSOLUTE! ROb" If the torah wanted to express the idea of a cardinally one el, called the father, it would simply discuss the "eoah" as "El" and leave the discussion at that. But the torah Does NOT do this. It discusses "mich"el" and "el shadday" and introduces other divine functions like "ruwach" or "medium". Why introduce "YHWH" when the torah could have just used "eloah" all the time, but the torah does not do this? Because God is 3 in 1
Exo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” Exo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. Exo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.”
Only 1 God Face you cannot see Spirit that you can experience And the image ----------------------------------------
Dave" Duh – the first step in creation = expansion away from the initial source = ra ROB" Sorry, but I do not see RA as some natural element of arrows in God's array of creation. Correct – you do not believe -------------------
Dave" Correct – NATURE – in nature shit happens in the world ROB" In a world of TOV, Not our reality – just your fantasy ------
Dave" NATURE – this is how God created us ROB" NO, not as I see it, God curses nature when Adam sinned. Correct – you have another god who changed all of God’s tov creation -----------
Maimonides" The third class of evil, the largest and most frequent class, is the evil which the individual brings upon himself through his vices and excessive desires.
Dave" YESTER RA! ROB" aven. Why do you teach God made man to be evil? Why do you teach cows are evil? Why do you teach squirrels are evil Why do you teach all biology was created to be evil? ---------------
Chabad.org" Thus G‑d created a world in which goodness and evil are equal options Dave" Yep – God did it – tov and the ra – a functional nature GOD is not going to create both a peaceful creation and a violent creation. God created the tov and the ra – I take scriptures word to be true – I believe scripture ---------------------------------
Dave" Man = tov and ra in equal measure ROB" NO , not like this. Adam was only 100% TOV. Then Adam could have never sinned
Chabad.org" G‑d thus created evil. Not so that humanity would choose it, but so that humanity could choose it. Could, but hopefully wouldn't. ROB" weird. If GOD created RA along with TOV, but hopefully humanity wouldn't choose RA, how can they not choose it, if the RA already exists as a choice? Yep – so man would understand his choices
Dave" Choose what – in a tov only creation – what is man’s Free Will choice? – only tov ROB" What? So the TOV human cannot drive off the road and run into a tree? So the TOV human cannot ask GOD please walk away from me, I want to sit in darkness. Make up your mind – if the only choice is tov – how do you choose ra?
Dave" Eve had no choice - until she made a choice - then the options of choices appeared ROB" Eve always had a choice, Make up your mind – you claim her only choice was tov Now you say she another choice – what is it?
Dave" Man = tov and ra in equal measure ROB" NO , not like this. Adam was only 100% TOV. Then Adam could have never sinned
Dave" Eve had no choice - until she made a choice - then the options of choices appeared ROB" Eve always had a choice, What were her choices if ra did not exist before Adam sinned? You say her only choice was tov – now you say she had options – what are they
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Post by rob on Oct 26, 2023 3:10:07 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Dave"You know there are two types of Jews Sadducees + Talmund + Law and Pharisees + Kabbalah + Christian ideology Rob" Oh, sorry. Dave" You don’t want to understand – you don’t want to see the bigger picture – ROb" Oh sorry, but understanding Jewish material is very confusing to say the least. Nothing is consistent and you cannot speak to them at all. You are the only Jewish discussion I have, and I am grateful for that, but I must say, understanding your view is very confusing. Dave" If you only have tov as a choice – you have no options What other choice do you have - if tov is the only choice? ROB" I do not understand you, if you are connecting your hand to God, you have the option to disconnect your hand. If you are speaking faithfully to God, so God empowers your with His powers through you, you also have the option to not speak His words of faith, hence wish to empower with self powers. This option exists for now on this earth, because SIN only happens ONCE.
In the next sinless world, of free will creatures, sin is never allowed to happen ever again. So while free will exists, the other option is never exercised by free will creatures, since they know exercising that option causes them to instantly cease to exist. So while there is an option, nobody will ever dare to choose it.
So I don't get you "What other choice do you have - if tov is the only choice?" -------------
ROBPP" In Eden the tree of GOOD, was not called the tree of Good and Evil. Dave" Nope – Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. Rob" do you even understand English? You have two options
"Yes correct, the other tree was called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat, because eating of that tree would make you into a opposing elohiym power, along with the elohiym power who rules from that tree. or
No, the tree of life was also termed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil , but God wanted to test Adam saying you are not to eat of the second tree?
or
You posted your view, without discussing my view?
Question" Why were there two trees in the Eden Garden Dave? What do Jews say a tree is a metaphor of? ---------------
Dave" Only 1 God Face you cannot see Spirit that you can experience And the image Rob" If God is 3 in 1, why three names? Why use the title YHWH? Why make the description of this EL confusing?
As for your three expressions of the Same Father, why do that? Where is a Creation animal showing us this idea, as Rom 1:19 says?
QUote me a Jewish saying verfiying your three expressions idea?
Why not a Gordon elohiym word study? He does a great job, and it helps to understand why Jews are fixed in their view. -----------
DVE" Why do you teach God made man to be evil? rob: " i DON'T. Aven is a genetic recording system, not a designed evil influence at all. It is used in the Hebrew as both positive and negative as a word meaning. Once you sin, the aven becomes your influence to sin more.
The torah does not explain why a cherub sinned. It just did over a very long time. But you ignore the torah on this idea, and ignore the cherub have free will like man does.
Jews say darkness is a simile of sin, but do not fathom why the darkness was first over the earth? Perhaps sinning angels were banished there long before the second creation over earth? Do Jews have any understanding of who the shedim are? Where they came from?
How many times has GOD created? DO Jews entertain this idea? To me, many times, God loves to create, and has done so billions of times to other unfallen worlds, not just ours.
Dave" God created the tov and the ra – I take scriptures word to be true – I believe scripture Rob" You don't have scripture that says this. Isaiah 45 speaks of peace contrasting creating RA.
Did God create a world of peace with violence? Is that even an idea? It's violates the God of love?
If God created tov and Ra for this world, what's stopping God to do the same for the next creation? Who can trust God to be a God of love? What does a God of love mean, to one without peace and safety?
Naham is a wonderful book
Na 1:1 ¶ The burden of Nineveh.
A prophet once preached against Nineveh and the king repented. Wow. such a RA city too. Why is GOD concerned with a RA city, wanting the city to do TOV?
Na 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:
Na 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger?
Nobody can, certainly not those who oppose God by sinning. Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
So sin happens only once, restricted to earth and only for a short time. Never again will SIN happen again. That is a wonderful promise. A wonderful GOD. A loving God. And Jews are trying to tell me, God created both tov and RA, on purpose? How does that fit into the verse, "affliction shall not rise up the second time" it doesn't and cannot. Obviously SIN happened ONCE and it only allowed to happen ONCE.
If a free will creature decided to sin once, like the prodigal son, and he repents and returns, Sinning is never allowed to happen every again.
Suppose the second son like the other son, also wanted to go and do RA in some far off land? Would he be allowed to? No. He was vanish into non-existence. Is that fair? You tell me.
Suppose a sinner is allowed into the sinless earth with sinless humans, would the sinning human love being there on earth, among the gold, the women, and the praising words of humanity? The sinner would seek death, permanent death, because such a place is a place of eternal torment to him. Na 1:11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.
Who is this?
Na 1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.
Who is this elohiym power that is cut off?
Na 1:15 Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.
Who is the He? a false elohiym power?
Na 3:1 ¶ Woe to the bloody city!
Na 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
A wonderful description of the shedim of false elohiym power.
Na 3:16 Thou hast multiplied thy merchants above the stars of heaven:
Who are the stars of heaven? ================
Dave" Then Adam could have never sinned ROb" Why not? Did not Adam have the choice to eat fro the tree of life (only TOV), or eat from the tree of tov with RA. Is that not a human could do, eat fruit from one of two trees?
Dave" Yep – so man would understand his choices Rob" - So what you are saying is when I was 19 to 20 years of age, before I married a virgin wife, I had to see somebody raping a virgin, in order to not choose this option, and see a man doing RA stuff by watching a R rated movies, and do drugs so my mind can experience depravity, and do time in jail, so I can better understand what freedom truly is?
You have taken drugs before, what did taking RA do to the inner Dave? Why must you experience this experience at all, to become the Dave you are now?
One Bible passage bothers me on this idea
Lu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Was Simeon loving GOD at all, or simply taking advantage of a loving God removing his diseases? How many smokers get new lungs from implants, only to go on smoking like before? Are they grateful for life? No, they simply want to keep on sinning, as before.
If you truly love God, one sin forgiven off is enough to make you eternally grateful to God. That is my two pennies on this passage.
Dave" Make up your mind – if the only choice is tov – how do you choose ra? Rob" you do not understand free will. God empowers your free will to choose. God empowers both tov and ra. Both are choices. Where does the motion of atoms come from? God. You agree to this.
Where does the radiation of RA come from? God empowers the atom that makes the RA, so the overall source of RA is GOD. You agree to this?
But why does the atoms make RA radiation? It has to be the result of choices. Somebody who is a prince who was steward over His Creation to one world, decided to make a RA choice, so GOD allows the choice.
Question: DO Jews understand a prince of worlds, is a prince over their Creation too? Was Adam a prince over Earth and Earth Creation?
If Jesus is the second Adam, is our prince (sar), this implies by parallel association, that Adam was once our prince, but lost his crown and kingdom to some other prince.
The Opposer, Ha-Satan, the unnamed opposer was once prince of this world earth, but Jesus came as a prince of man, equipped to retake the prince ownership to this world as prince. DO Jews understand this idea?
James Tabor did not speak of this idea. I could have within seconds of his question, why is Satan the god of this world? Was once, not anymore? Jesus is prince of this world, soon to take his own, after a little time. Not long now.
Dave" Make up your mind – you claim her only choice was tov Now you say she another choice – what is it? ROb" You do not understand free will?
Jeff Benner Lexicon
L) ,OM (,OM YKHh) ac: Chastise co: ? ab: ? V) ,OM (,OM Y-KHh) — Chastise: [freq. 59] (vf: Niphal, Hiphil, Hophal) |kjv: reprove, rebuke, correct, plead, reason, chasten, appoint, argue| {str: 3198} f1) )LOJX ()LOJX TW-KHhH) — Chastise: [freq. 28] |kjv: reproof, rebuke, reprove, argument| {str: 8433} Why does Jeff Benner see this word as meaning chastise?
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason "yakach" together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
Ge 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved "yakach" .
What is going on here, in the first use of this word?
Ge 21:25 And Abraham reproved Abimelech because of a well of water, which Abimelech's servants had violently taken away.
What is going on here, in the second use of this word?
Rob" I see the word. meaning to "Reason with"
Le 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke "yakach" thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Rob" This human can make choices, easy enough, to make another human sin?
Job 13:3 Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God.
Rob" Is this not exercising our free will to reason?
Pr 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Rob" Is this not exercising our free will to reason, like how a father talks to a son?
Pr 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee:
Rob" WHy can't you reason with a wicked human?
Explain to me your view?
Dave" What were her choices if ra did not exist before Adam sinned?
1Ki 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
Eve's choice was to faithfully take God's word, or the break faith, and take another elohiym's power's words.
You deny the serpent had power as elohiym of sin, in his words. Why was the tree called the tree of tov and ra? And why was the serpent restricted to that one tree?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2023 8:52:40 GMT -5
Dave" You don’t want to understand – you don’t want to see the bigger picture – ROb" Oh sorry, but understanding Jewish material is very confusing to say the least. Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Jewish theology is Christian theology – you have not been taught Christianity – you belong to a satanic cult that teaches satan is a god Nothing is consistent and you cannot speak to them at all. Why don’t you approach them academically? You try to preach your satan to them. And I am sure that if they do answer you – you tell them they are wrong because satan is more important.
You do not even know how to have a discussion - all you do preach satan god and your surprised people tune you out
Dave" If you only have tov as a choice – you have no options What other choice do you have - if tov is the only choice? ROB" I do not understand you, if you are connecting your hand to God, you have the option to disconnect your handDisconnecting is ra and you say it does not exist – until after you choose itSo I don't get you "What other choice do you have - if tov is the only choice?" Now you say you have the choice to connect or disconnect – how is that only one choice? Before Eve took a bite - (you actually wait for Adam because he is a man) - there was no ra choice------------- Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. the tree of life was also termed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil , but God wanted to test Adam saying you are not to eat of the second tree? Correct – a test – will you keep my mitzvahs or not – two choicesQuestion" Why were there two trees in the Eden Garden Dave? TWO CHOICES – not oneYour claim that the tree of knowledge did not exist until after Eve ate from the tree You claim their was only one choice – tov So the choice of the tree of knowledge did not exist You teach There was only tov - until Adan sinned then ra entered the world and everything changed Vegeterian sharks and tooless lions remeber? Weeds with thorns and thistel are created new after Day 6 Sharks could eat - lions could eat - and earthquakes could now happen all after Adam chose ra - did ra appear It is creationist nonesense designed to drive the educated away from Christianity--------------- Dave" Only 1 God Face you cannot see Spirit that you can experience And the image Rob" If God is 3 in 1, why three names? Why use the title YHWH? Why make the description of this EL confusing? Because sometime God is the Father – that man cannot see – because God is larger than our reality Because sometimes God comforts you as the HS – tends his flock – as spirit Because sometimes you see him in the form /image of a man - Christ Why not a Gordon elohiym word study? He does a great job, and it helps to understand why Jews are fixed in their view. ----------- DVE" Why do you teach God made man to be evil? rob: " i DON'T. Aven is a genetic recording system, not a designed evil influence at all. It is used in the Hebrew as both positive and negative as a word meaning. Once you sin, the aven becomes your influence to sin more. H205 – אָוֶן - 'âven From an unused root perhaps meaning properly to pant (hence to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble, vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol: - affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners (-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain, vanity, wicked (-ness.) Compare H369. H369 – אַיִן - 'ayin As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle: - else, except, fail [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without, Compare H370. You teach God made man to be in vain – nothing – wicked – evil – nothing – to not exist – to be nothingYou are sick – who can take you seriously? You just make up this stuff and you can’t sell it to anyone God made man with the commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiple + subdue and conquer (yester ra) – there is nothing wicked or evil about it---------------------------------------------- The torah does not explain why a cherub sinned. You don’t even know your own theology – Ezk 28 is about the pride of a man Isa is about the oride of a man Catholic satan rebelled out of prideYou teah it - why dont you know it Mr serious -------------------------------------------------- Do Jews have any understanding of who the shedim are? Where they came from? They are demons - obstacles - made by God and placed in our path by God -------------------------------------------------- Dave" God created the tov and the ra – I take scriptures word to be true – I believe scripture Rob" You don't have scripture that says this. Isaiah 45 speaks of peace contrasting creating RA. Did God create a world of peace with violence? Is that even an idea? It's violates the God of love? Did you ever correct any of your children?Why would you traumatize them like that – don’t you love them? If you love your child – why would you ever say NO to them? Spank them? Scold them? As a father – you would say because I love them I want them to grow up right But you cannot imagine why Our Father corrects us – scolds us – or punishes us Either you are dumber than dirt – or you are just pretending to be stupid ----------------------------------------- If God created tov and Ra for this world, what's stopping God to do the same for the next creation? Why don’t you believe scripture – there is no BEAST in the New Heaven and Earth?Who can trust God to be a God of love? Yep – that is what your son says after you whip his ass Yep – that is what your daughter says when you don’t let her say out all night If you believe – you trust – you cannot help but trust – because you KNOW it as truthYou reject scripture – reject Judeo-Christian theology – you embrace satan as a god And you DO NOT TRUST in the truth you doubt - you have been taught to doubt - it is the goal of all non-Christ-centered satanic churches Satan does not have to teach you an alternative religion - just doubt the true faithWhat does a God of love mean, to one without peace and safety? TOUGHT LOVE – Robert – the punishment is death!That is a wonderful promise. A wonderful GOD. A loving God. And Jews are trying to tell me, God created both tov and RA, on purpose? How does that fit into the verse, "affliction shall not rise up the second time" it doesn't and cannot. Yep the greater good – you cannot imagine the greater good Obviously SIN happened ONCE and it only allowed to happen ONCE. What the hell are you saying Who sinned Eve or Adam or your satan – which one did it?Scripture says Eve did itRom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: If a free will creature decided to sin once, Yep – and that was Eve
Na 1:11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor. Who is this? Na 1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile. Who is this elohiym power that is cut off?Who is the He? a false elohiym power? The other gods of the Levant and the whole world are demons / archon / Jinn / serpentsNa 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts. A wonderful description of the shedim of false elohiym power. OK – all worldly desire and self-gratification - SELF ================ Dave" Then Adam could have never sinned ROb" Why not? Did not Adam have the choice to eat from the tree of life (only TOV), or eat from the tree of tov with RA. Is that not a human could do, eat fruit from one of two trees? WHAT – two choices? You claim the second choice did not exist until after Adam sinnedNow you say he had two choices – obey or not obey – tov or ra – obey or sin Make up your mind! Who gave Adam the ability to sin – God did itWho created the TWO choices – God did itWho made the wrong choice – Man did it---------------------------------------------------- Dave" Yep – so man would understand his choices Rob" - So what you are saying is when I was 19 to 20 years of age, before I married a virgin wife, I had to see somebody raping a virgin, When you were only 3 – you did not even know the sick words you write here Why do you know these words now? Answer - 'Knowledge of good and evil' - DUH You have taken drugs before, what did taking RA do to the inner Dave? When I broke my nose – you bet I took a drug Many people who got COVID took a drug I have a bottle of Advil by my bed for by back pain (google) Therefore, users who drink ayahuasca tea experience the powerful hallucinogenic effects of DMT. Indigenous cultures in South America have used this psychedelic drug for hundreds of years and view the drug as having healing power. DMT – when I was in high school (class of 74) DMT was available as a street drug – it was called the LOVE DRUG – basically what it did was – you didn’t give a shit about anything – just sit and smile Effect – all anxiety gone for the moment Today medicine says – it is better to take a chill pill than to go postal at work (do you as an Aussie understand that phrase? - going postal) nih.gov - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › article – (National Institute of Health) Ayahuasca: Psychological and Physiologic Effects, Pharmacology ... Ayahuasca-induced changes in many areas of the brain involved in feelings, memories, vision, and consciousness allowed for amplified introspection and problem-solving related to past and current life stressors, and for powerful envisioning and strategizing of solutions for a more hopeful future. Shamen have used “drugs” for centuries – to look at life from a different perspectiveAyahuasca is associated with 'out-of-body' experiences - looking at yourself from the outsideSomething also reported by near death experiences that see heaven and come back testamony after testamony after testamony Never do they see Allah and come back Muslim Never do they experience emptiness of nothingness Never do they come back as Buddist They all come back with a new meaning for life - a mission to witness - to make this world a better place Scream your non-belief from the rafters if you wantThe evidence to mega-overwhelming - unlimited and always the same messageAmerican Indians – do a vision questThe most famous example are the sweat lodges – fast – pray – self-denial – to the death (many die) – or until you have a vision – a hallucination Whatever you saw – is the answer you always knew – it had to come out of you In reality – anyone that comes that close to death – sees life with new respect and hopeIs it Christian? YOU BET IT IS! – one touch by the HS and BOOM your changed for life – new respect – new hope For a momnet you know there is a larger reality than just dirt and biologyFirst Book of Adam and Eve - 250BC 8:1 THEN Adam wept and said, "O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us."
2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish."I BELIEVE THIS Claravoyance - mediums - scripture does not say ther are fake - scripture just says stay away from them Some people are BRIGHTER THAN OTHER I BELIVE in the spiritual realm all around us - filled with life forms we call angels and archon / demons Some people - have glimpses into this realm - visions - Judeo-Christian scripure has several examples of this on the good side - angels vision - prophesy - John at Patmos time traveled into the future and wrtote what he saw - the heavens parted and Steven could see into heaven - the transfiguration of Christ On the other sideThe Koran says - if you see your mom come back from the dead through a medium - it is a Jinn impersinating your mom - a demon - an archon The Jinn will know enough truth to decieve you - then fill you with lies I BELIEVE THIS VERY MUCHWalk into your hotel room in Mexico - standing there in the dark it looks inviting Flip on the light - and watch all the cockroaches scamper across the walls to saftey an entire ecosystem just out of view All around us - just out of view - an entire reality filled with life forms - we call angels and demons They can see us - we cannot see them Balaam's donkey - could see Elisha - could see Ezek 1 - he could see John Rev - he could see Adam - could see before he sinned YES - I BELIVE IN SPIRIT AND THE SPIRIT WORLDWhy must you experience this experience at all, to become the Dave you are now? Because now I know the Lord Have I sinned along the way – OH YA – and I appreciate His Grace even more We are all different – and are called differently – why You and I are to speak to some young people about drugs Which one of us can have an honest discussion with them? ---------------------------- One Bible passage bothers me on this ideaLu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. Why haven’t you studied the Beatitudes?Your grasp of the NT is lacking – too busy reading Ellen White instead of scripture? ---------------------------------- Dave" Make up your mind – if the only choice is tov – how do you choose ra? Rob" you do not understand free will. God empowers your free will to choose. God empowers both tov and ra. Both are choices.Of course – common sense – scriptureSo why do you teach ra did not exist until AFTER Adam sinned?Only then ra is introduced into the world and everything changed – Don Patton So why do you teach this creationist nonsense Nothing died – nothing ate – nothing happened – all creation was motionless = until Adam sinned then ra entered the world you teach ABSOLUTE CREATIONIST NONSENSEGod created the tov and the ra – and the ra has been with us since Gen 1:2 Where does the motion of atoms come from? God. You agree to this.Yep – totally dependent upon entropy – each movement is from higher E to lower E = a loss = entropy It is what makes the world go round / FUNCTIONALBut why does the atoms make RA radiation? It has to be the result of choices. Somebody who is a prince who was steward over His Creation to one world, decided to make a RA choice, so GOD allows the choice. Correct – atoms did not even move – complete frozen standstill – until Adam sinned you teachQuestion: DO Jews understand a prince of worlds, is a prince over their Creation too?Have no idea what your statement even meansJew do not understand – your satan – is the God of Creation Satanic nonsense The archon are the prince of this physical world because entropy is in it – it will wear down – it will waste away – just as it is written in scripture Rev 21:1-2-------------------------- The Opposer, Ha-Satan, the unnamed opposer was once prince of this world earth DUH – the BEAST is still the King / master / owner / ruler / governor of this world James Tabor did not speak of this idea. I could have within seconds of his question, why is Satan the god of this world? Your satan is NOT the prince of this world in the OT – he is the heavenly prosecutor Your satan is the prince of this world in the NT – the Beast and devil Tell me your simple answer – how did this change happen?
This is where you always inject your smart ass answer saying – the Jews are wrong That is not an answer – or a discussion – it is just an attitudeThen you will seek individual verse to defend your attitude using your word chain logic I am dyslexic → its my mom’s fault→ but dad donated the sperm→ but he came from his dad → but he came from his dad→ who came from Noah→ who came from Adam→ who was married to Eve → who spoke to the serpent→ so its satan’s fault But you stop your blame game there – you run into your FEEL GOOD road block YOU CANNOT SAY - its satan’s fault→ and God made satan→ because God created everything So you claim that your satan created himself – a second creator who then changes all creation – all against God’s Will
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Post by Richard on Oct 26, 2023 11:23:18 GMT -5
My A,B,Cs
A. The good God’s amazing creation and the opportunity for life in it. Well said.
B. The greater good To sit with God around the throne as His companion and “FRIEND.”
C. How do we get from A to B? By the time we ask this question of ourselves, the only solution is repentance and salvation though Christ. Dave’s Prodigal Son.
Why doesn’t God just make “FRIENDS.” 100s of beautiful women want to marry the movie star or the millionaire for the reward. Do the wealthy ever know their friends are really their friends? When a movie star falls or a millionaire goes broke, just how many friends are left? Only real FRIENDS stick with you no matter what, as Job did, as the prodigal son does.
A. The good God’s amazing creation and the opportunity for life in it. Well said
B. The greater good To sit with God around the throne as His companion and “FRIEND”
C. How do we get from A to B? By the time we ask this question of ourselves, the only solution is repentance and salvation though Christ.
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2023 12:21:12 GMT -5
Witness away my friend - we all could use more of them
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Post by rob on Oct 26, 2023 15:54:43 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" Jewish theology is Christian theology – you have not been taught Christianity – you belong to a satanic cult that teaches satan is a godRob" Funny you ignore my post that " some Jews do support a Ha Satan as a opposing elohiym power" Hence why I said Jewish material is confusing, because not all Jews think like you do. Dave" Why don’t you approach them academically? Rob" I have tried, I get one email. I have tried to discuss to SDA people too, I get one email. Nobody is willing to discuss the torah, they are full of pride with their view already and such a view cannot be discussed by others. Dave" You do not even know how to have a discussion - all you do preach satan god and your surprised people tune you outRob" What cheek you have Dave. I have discussed "emanuh" with you, my faviourite subject and you do not discuss my discussions. What about doing Gordon's word study on elohiym. WE both promise NOT to mention the word "Ha-Satan or Opposer" . However the word study from my point of view is to show Jews, that an opposing elohiym power has to exist in the torah, as Deut 32 tells us concerning the shad, but Jews ignore this because that opposes monotheism, and this is not allowed. So Jews do not wish to fathom where the shedim came from, so they pose the shedim are created by God and controlled by God. However I am happy to do the word study purely to show you that elohiym does NOT mean a cardinally one strong authority as Gordon claims, who is a messanic Jew. I am happy not to mention "Ha-Satan or Opposer". Now are you willing to discover why Gordon ignores the findings in his study and discusses around the word meaning of elohiym? And when you have a discussion, you are supposed to discuss the author's discuss, which I will do and you will do, we are NOT to go off a tangent. DO you agree to this ? Gordon does write a discuss, but in NOT willing to discuss things we me, he sees my discuss as polytheism. A single email is all I received. ----------------- Why arn't you willing to discuss Gordon's word study? He is a messanic Jew too. ---------------- Dave" Disconnecting is ra and you say it does not exist – until after you choose itRob" correct. However RA was immediately created the first time free will was exercised. And the RA is shown to a "RA-less" (a new word meaning invented by me) domain, for the first time, and made known only ONCE by GOD. Normally RA is never observable, and the creature who does this option ceases to exist. Dave" Now you say you have the choice to connect or disconnect – how is that only one choice? Before Eve took a bite - (you actually wait for Adam because he is a man) - there was no ra choiceRob" You can "do faith or break faith" and you ask, how is that only one choice? I do not get you, when you reason, as I showed you already in the last post, you talk to another party, hence relationship. The other party can listen to you faithfully or break faith from you. Everything about heaven is relational. In fact the power of elohiym lives in you to allow you to live, the HS lives in you as a medium, carrying the Father's power to make you live. So living itself is relational. The motion of the atom is also relational. If a atom could break off from being connected to God, the atom would cease to exist. During the nanosecond withdrawal the temperature (a term to measure motion) would plummet to near zero Kelvin degrees, so the atom ceases to exist. Hence why the earth was formless and void and darkness was there. It was a frozen ball at near 4 degrees Kelvin, barely enough power from God to make it nonexistent, and it contained sinning angels on it, hence the reason why earth was in this state, as a lonely out of place rock floating in a previous creation, no longer around. The reason God waited for Adam to sin, before the court judgement session in heaven is because Adam was prince of the earth creation, not the chief sinning angel. And a court ruling ruled condemnation (a court term) as Romans 5 says. Dave" the tree of life was also termed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil ,ROb" NO Dave, the the tree of life was NOT termed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil , In fact RA never exists in GOD's domain,, hence the true tree is called the tree of living. The other tree was called a different name, not living, but living under probation, a false elohiym power, knowing both good (God's world) and RA (an opposers world). A simple study of RA, shows the reader that RA is always opposing God's domain. In Isaiah 45, RA is the contrast of peace. Can God use violence for a great good in a sinning world? Yes God can. God sees all things, future and past. But other creatures can't do this. SO in this respect God has an advantage over the sinning RA creature. The sinning RA creature has an advantage over GOD relating to other sinless creatures, because the RA creature can lie, and make false reports of truth. Both of these are examples of sin, as Exodus 21 shows. But Dave never consider the serpent as a sinning power. Dave" Correct – a test – will you keep my mitzvahs or not – two choicesRob" Hmm? OK, God wanted humans to witness against this sinning elohiym power of RA. Dave" TWO CHOICES – not one
Your claim that the tree of knowledge did not exist until after Eve ate from the tree You claim their was only one choice – tov So the choice of the tree of knowledge did not existROb" Really Dave, you twist torah. In Eden was TWO trees, not one. Funny when I said this first you disagreed, saying there were many fruits trees in the garden and you never saw Eden as Two trees. What do TWO trees represent? Elohiym powers. " The first reference to the tree of life in Jewish texts comes from the biblical story of the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:9 relates that God filled the garden with beautiful and tasty trees, and in the middle planted two in particular — the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the latter of which he forbade Adam and Eve to eat." www.myjewishlearning.com/article/what-is-the-tree-of-life-etz-chaim/ The tree of life as a metaphor for the Torah comes from the Book of Proverbs, which uses the term three times, the most famous of which is the saying in Proverbs 3:18: Etz chaim hee l’machazikim bah (“She is a tree of life to those who grasp her”). This line, referring to the Torah, is commonly sung in Ashkenazi congregations as the Torah is returned to the ark after public readings.Pr 3:18 She (wisdom) is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: " A third trend in reading this verse, however, begins with the more atomistic reading of the Talmud , in which the analogy of the tree with a person is seen as a metaphor. www.myjewishlearning.com/article/every-person-is-a-tree/Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: SO if the human is a simile of a tree, we are also since Adam's sin, similes of an opposing elohiym power. But there was a talking speaking power at the other tree, and by association must also be an opposing elohiym power too. Jews do not acknowledge this, neither does Dave, see the serpent as a RA sinning opposing elohiym power. Jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Rob" A tree is a simile of elohiym power knowing both good and evil, except a good tree never does RA fruit, only TOV fruit. Hence only GOD is a true good tree. The other elohiym powers are false powers. Dave" You teach There was only tov - until Adan sinned then ra entered the world and everything changed Vegeterian sharks and tooless lions remeber? Weeds with thorns and thistel are created new after Day 6 Sharks could eat - lions could eat - and earthquakes could now happen all after Adam chose ra - did ra appear Rob" When Adam sinned a gradual change occurred over Creation as God withdrew his powers of sustaining functional perfection. The soil lost is power of health. The plants gradually lost their food value. All the herbivores began to strain under this poor food. Those animals that GOD created, use their tools for eating other food source such as other animals. So the sharks became top predators, a design overseen by GOD, should SIN and thus RA enter His Creation, GOD planned for the changes in case Adam did sin, thus Creation is finely tuned to do both, live forever without RA, or live for a short time under RA (6,000 years). Mozzies is a good example, the male still eats flower nectar, but the female chooses her tools to eat blood instead to nourish her babies with better food value. By the way a tree of RA cannot exist, because RA cannot exist on it's own, so sinning cannot function without God's help. Hence why the MEDIUM allows for the choices of good or evil to be observed, and this happens ONCE and only for a short time (6,000 years). Rob previous post ignored" Why not a Gordon elohiym word study? He does a great job, and it helps to understand why Jews are fixed in their view.
Rob" are you ignoring my quest for this study? DaVE" You teach God made man to be in vain – nothing – wicked – evil – nothing – to not exist – to be nothing You are sick – who can take you seriously? You just make up this stuff and you can’t sell it to anyonerob" there you go again using a traditional man made dictionary the precepts of men. I pity your mocking. Instead I showed you dozens of verses using the word aven, both OT and NT, and all I get from you is a mock? Where is your discussion of my discusssion? Nothing, only a mock. The Bible defines it's own words by uses the words. Never use a dictionary. Dave" Ezk 28 is about the pride of a manRob" Jews are great poetry simile inventors of poetry readings of the torah, yet they ignore this passage. Sure the poem is about the pride of man. But it is also about the pride of a cherub. Since when is "adam" a "cherub", these are two creature kinds, last time I did a word study of them. But Jews see the word "cherub" meaning only to "guard" that's funny because the word "cherub" is a created creature? Dave" They are demons - obstacles - made by God and placed in our path by GodRob" Well you stick to that Jewish idea Dave. Dave" Did you ever correct any of your children? Why would you traumatize them like that – don’t you love them? If you love your child – why would you ever say NO to them? Spank them? Scold them?Rob" Really Dave. do you understand what violence is? Job lost all his children to violence, (non peace) lost all his house of violence (non peaceful whirlwind) And you have the hide to say God was only disciplining Job for what? God said Job was perfectly tom. SO who opposes God's declaration? An Opposer did. That is what the Hebrew word means, to oppose. ANd which opposer opposed? A Hey-Opposer. Meaning "the opposer", a chief opposer who sins. The only way to oppose God is by sinning. Duh. Notice the Opposer has to play by God rules and God's boundaries. 1) the Opposer was not to wander away from his tree. 2) The Opposer was not allowed to make other unfallen worlds also sin, only on earth was he restricted to. 3) The Opposer was allowed to talk to God, who sustains and controls all things, even though the attack is against the Most High. In Job, did the Opposer oppose God's declaration about Job? Can a Jew answer that question correctly without bias? In Eden, did the Opposer oppose God declaration about eating fruit from trees?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? I posted a Jewish quote that the Opposer was hedging a bet with God over Job. Hmm? The Jew does not answer the question? It is disrespectful to answer back at God like the Opposer did. The Opposer's power brought violence upon Job, you cannot deny. "All is in thy power", so the Opposer has been allotted power from GOD to do certain things, like violence upon Job. Why does the Opposer do violence to JOb, and not good or watch for Job to sin, like a proper prosecutor is supposed to do? Because the opposer is no prosecutor, but a destroyer, a power of violence, a power of RA. "but save Job's life" Jews say this limit made the Opposer suffer MORE than Job. pathetic comment really. Suffer? Job suffered violence , how does one bring back his lost children? God is a GOD of peace, NOT RA. Dave" TOUGH LOVE – Robert – the punishment is death!Rob" SO GOD uses both soft love and tough love? Dave" WHAT – two choices?You claim the second choice did not exist until after Adam sinnedROb" I am saying the consequences of the choice is made observable to the creature by GOD. The creature is able to make the choice. DO you understand now? Dave" DMT – when I was in high school (class of 74) DMT was available as a street drug – it was called the LOVE DRUG – basically what it did was – you didn’t give a shit about anything – just sit and smileROb" Uncanny: my work colleague asked me to research DMT. Dave" Today medicine says – it is better to take a chill pill than to go postal at work (do you as an Aussie understand that phrase? - going postal)ROb" no Dave" I BELIEVE THIS Claravoyance - mediums - scripture does not say ther are fake - scripture just says stay away from them Some people are BRIGHTER THAN OTHERRob" Some see the penal gland colours over the body, yes/ Dave" I BELIVE in the spiritual realm all around us - filled with life forms we call angels and archon / demonsRob" Hmm? the sinning angels pretend to be all forms of things to humans, yes/ Dave" The Koran says - if you see your mom come back from the dead through a medium - it is a Jinn impersinating your mom - a demon - an archon The Jinn will know enough truth to decieve you - then fill you with lies
I BELIEVE THIS VERY MUCHRob" correct The sinning angels love to sin even now while banished to earth. Dave" All around us - just out of view - an entire reality filled with life forms - we call angels and demonsRob" Why do you term the shedim as angels and demons? This is my view, the cherubims on earth are angels that function as demons (shed) and this is very real. Dave" You and I are to speak to some young people about drugs Which one of us can have an honest discussion with them?ROb" you can because you have walked in their shoes so to speak, but while you offer advice you cannot offer experience, so really we cannot walk in somebody else's shoes. I also have taken drugs, sugar is a drug. Casein power from milk is another drug like chemical, as is sodium chloride. But sucrose is especially addictive to the brain. One does not have to take all the drugs to experience an experience that is the same as more potent, drug like drugs. In my experience with drugs, the first 3 seconds promises emotional fun, and after that you feel nothing, as the brain is swamped with overloaded feelings. Dave" So why do you teach ra did not exist until AFTER Adam sinned?ROb: " Chata means to miss GOD's power, something we creatures of free will can do. RA is a fruit of chata, something not normally present in God's domain. RA is a consequence of sin, not something naturally existing. we see rain fall as drops, we see snow, we see volcanoes, we walk using friction. Are these natural examples of RA? In our current world, yes. But these are examples of the consequences of sin, when Adam sinned, God cursed His Creation, so powers were withdrawn. Now the RA we see seems natural, but it is only temporary until the sin problem is resolved. Dave" all creation was motionless = until Adam sinnedRob" Not so, motion is a power of GOD, matter when it exists always has motion. Dave" Yep – totally dependent upon entropy – each movement is from higher E to lower E = a loss = entropy It is what makes the world go round / FUNCTIONALRob" do you understand science? Entropy is about loss of function, not loss of energy. Friction is a good example. if you look into the torah the living creatures carry you as you walk, no friction is required. Eze 1:19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Who does this carrying of you? GOD does. Is it functional ? Yes, does it require friction? NO Try learning science from the torah, and stop listening to manmade science after sinning came upon the earth. RobPP" But why does the atoms make RA radiation? It has to be the result of choices. Somebody who is a prince who was steward over His Creation to one world, decided to make a RA choice, so GOD allows the choice.Dave" Correct – atoms did not even move – complete frozen standstill – until Adam sinned you teachRob" mock on. I said 4 degrees Kelvin, " not complete frozen standstill", that would be zero Kelvin, and the earth would cease to exist. In the case of Adam's sin, the withdrawal of God's power is gradually, the term is "muwth muwth" a "daily dying" towards the "muwth muwth", the second death, where things are "zero Kelvin, and the earth would cease to exist". Hence due to God's grace, the same grace to the sinning angels, the SINNING creatures are allowed to live on, in a probationary time until the first death. Since the angels sinne first they are to witness all the sinning they do to all of the humans who ever lived. Hence they live on. The humans who sinned second under God's domain, live only for 70 or so years, today's terms, because they are judged only by the sinning they did themselves. They were not the FIRST sinning creatures, they did not leave their FIRST estate, as Jude says this. Dave" Have no idea what your statement even meansROb" James Tabor asked the question why is Satan the god of this world, if God was / is the god of this world? How did the shift happen? He asked? You agree Satan is the god of this world. But Tabor does not use the term Satanas, he uses the term satan. My question to you is, do Jews understand Satan as a prince of this world? I expect Messanic jews could only answer this question. DO you have any Messanic Jewsish quotes on this? Dave" The archon are the prince of this physical worldRob" Stop using terms James Tabor didn't use. He said Satan is the god of this world. You agreed with James Tabor, so use his terms. Dave" Your satan is NOT the prince of this world in the OT – he is the heavenly prosecutor Your satan is the prince of this world in the NT – the Beast and devil Tell me your simple answer – how did this change happen?ROb" When Adam sinned, the prince of earth (Adam) lost his crown and the other ruler (the opposer) gained Adam's crown over earth, so the opposer is the prince of earth since that time. Rom 5 says so, a court ruling. Since the cross, Jesus took back the title of prince over earth, and now Jesus is prince over earth, but only for those who have faith in Jesus and His Father. I do not have to invent different meaning to the function of the Opposer, like you do, with satan and satanas. Neither does Tabor do this. Dave" This is where you always inject your smart ass answer saying – the Jews are wrong That is not an answer – or a discussion – it is just an attitudeROb" where is your proof? Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, Same word, Jesus is our prince over earth. Tabor mentions Satan's kingdom fell like lightning. This began when Jesus make cracks in it, and when died took back the crown title. Dave" So you claim that your satan created himself – a second creator who then changes all creation – all against God’s WillRob "misquoting me again, you mock. Question: Can a creature create ? What does bara mean ? out of nothing? no Out of existing material ? Yes No creature can engineer like GOD can, out of his hand came things we cannot fathom. We creatures only engineer things from matter. The term "bara" means to "engineer" , not create out of nothing. The opposer only spoils, corrupts and destroys. ====================== I read Richard's post and your reply to Richard. ===================== Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2023 22:41:33 GMT -5
Dave" Jewish theology is Christian theology – you have not been taught Christianity – you belong to a satanic cult that teaches satan is a god Rob" Funny you ignore my post that "some Jews do support a Ha Satan as a opposing elohiym power"
DUH – Hence why I said Jewish material is confusing, because not all Jews think like you do. For four years you have been challenged to find one pre-Roman source for your Ezk 28 satan god
WHERE IS IT? Because it is not the the Jewish literature you presented here ---------------------------------------------
Dave" Why don’t you approach them academically? Rob" I have tried, I get one email. I have tried to discuss to SDA people too, I get one email. We all had you pegged Day 1 Richard did his best to dismiss you Dillon tells me you and him broke up as lovers do Why Robert – why do people see you for who you are – Answer – it is OBVIOUS
You do not know your scripture You do not understand what you preach You talk crap about things you do not know And its OBVIUOUS
You post Gerald Schordner claiming that he supports your views of 6 24 hr Days of Creation HE DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR VIEW He also says in the same paper - man of Gen 1 is different then the man with a soul in Gen 2 You missreprest what others say - you do it deliberately AND ITS OBVIOUS
You are not serious – you are not interested in learning a damn thing All you do is argue and claim – SCRIPTURE IS ERROR and I DON’T BELIEVE Just how many people would find your approach attractive
What about doing Gordon's word study on elohiym WHAT ABOUT IT – you have been on this forum for 4 years You offered to be my web-master Yet you are unable to navigate this form Who takes you serious – your pretend ignorance – is not attractive
You will not even show the respect here of keep discussion to a single thread – just post wherever If you create a thread for your Gordon guy – you will probably NOT put it under the Multidimesional heading Just to be an ass I do not believe your pretend ignorance – you are game playing
Grow up - grow a pair and be serious! --------------------------------------
Dave. I have discussed "emanuh" with you, my faviourite subject and you do not discuss my discussions. Yep – whole thread here just for it No one agrees that it means to do the right prayers or the right rituals or have the right diet BELIEF is all that is required and you are firmly on the record here claiming NOT to believe ---------------------------
“Ha-Satan or Opposer" . However the word study from my point of view is to show Jews, that an opposing elohiym power has to exist in the torah, as Deut 32 tells us concerning the shad,
Absolutely correct – you say textual variance DO NOT MATTER
If you would have read my paper as I ask of you as a favor – but you can’t find it You would see the text of the eastern orthodox Christians – the Greek orthodox Church – the Byzantine Bible – the Syrian Textus Receptus also of the 16th century
Psa_96:5 (ABP) οτι παντες οι θεοι των εθνων δαιμονια ο κυριος τους ουρανους εποιησεν
(This is a conditional phrase (This vrs that) – Robert is a man, Mary is a girl This = (all the gods of the nation are demons) – that = (the king of - the above the sky) (all the gods of the tribes, races, nations are demons) – are different than – (the king of - the above the sky)
all the gods of the tribes, races, nations are demons
Erasmus Textus Receptus – Catholic Church Psa 96:5 (TR) τὰ ὄρη ἐτάκησαν ὡσεὶ κηρὸς ἀπὸ προσώπου κυρίου, ἀπὸ προσώπου κυρίου πάσης τῆς γῆς.
(KJV) For all the gods of the peoples are nought, And Jehovah made the heavens. (TLV) For all the gods of the peoples are idols, but Adonai made the heavens. (YLT) Psa 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are nought, And Jehovah made the heavens.
I have looked and looked at this – no translation says what the Greek says All the far away mountain kings appear to melt – [as if the KING (supreme power) – IN RELATION TO] – the of the king of everything!
All the mountain kings far away are not – compared to – the KING of the ALL All the far mountain kings will melt away –
G3735 - ὄρος – oros - a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): - hill, mount (-ain).
G5080 – τήκω - tēkō - a primary verb; to liquefy: - melt. ------------------------------------------
“Ha-Satan or Opposer" . However the word study from my point of view is to show Jews, that an opposing elohiym power has to exist in the torah, as Deut 32 tells us concerning the shad, but Jews ignore this because that opposes monotheism, and this is not allowed.
You are unreal – word game away God in heaven – above – the creator Below on earth there are gods (small g) all of them are demons of the BEAST of Revelation / archon
NO – NO ONE has two gods locked in a Cosmic struggle in heaven = Pagan Zorosaterism
EVERYONE ELSE has a Creator of the ALL And way below in a small corner – there are archon that act as bullies – baboons – YES – demons All of them are created beings – NONE OF THEN ARE EQUAL WITH GOD
None of them created themselves – because of pride None of them held a rebellion in heaven They are no more valuable than a dumb cow
Sure Caesar – called himself a god – demanded sacrifice – demanded worship BUT HE WAS JUST A CREATED CREATURE – NOT GOD or even a god -
Your theology of ther Creator locked in a struggel with a being no more important than Caesar Is pagan zoroasterian nonesense
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However I am happy to do the word study purely to show you that elohiym does NOT mean a cardinally one strong authority as Gordon claims, who is a messanic Jew. I am happy not to mention "Ha-Satan or Opposer". Now are you willing to discover why Gordon ignores the findings in his study and discusses around the word meaning of elohiym?
Keep whining and making excuses
And when you have a discussion, you are supposed to discuss the author's discuss, which I will do and you will do, we are NOT to go off a tangent. DO you agree to this ? All I have done for four years is discuss your love for your satan god You have been on the attack to prove both Judaism and Christianity wrong And I have been defended myself against Ellen White’s satanic teaching
Gordon does write a discuss, but in NOT willing to discuss things we me, he sees my discuss as polytheism. WHY? – you want to make an entire thread to demonstrate how a messianic jews think your view is polytheistic – Hmmm?
Why arn't you willing to discuss Gordon's word study? He is a messanic Jew too. Why are you pretending to be too ignorant to navigate this forum? Yet – you claim to be highly educated – an expert even Prove to us why he says you teach polythiesm ----------------
Dave" Disconnecting is ra and you say it does not exist – until after you choose it Rob" correct. However RA was immediately created the first time free will was exercised. Exercised to do what Robert – to make a non tov (ra) choice But you argue – that choice did not exist – until Eve chose it Then all creation changed – against God’s Will
Absolute Nonsense – stupid – childish – pagan – designed to keep the educated away Nothing ever died – no earth quakes or volcanoes until Gen 3 – then all creation changed
NO ONE BELIVES THIS- IT IS CREATIONIST CRAP – REJECTED Your only evidence is that the whole world has to be wrong except you – BULL SHIT BUDDY ---------------------------------------------------------------
God created everything – tov and ra Creation was totally functional
Adam and Eve did not live in the world – they were in the Paradise of Eden Sin did not enter the world until Eve sinned The Adam and Eve changed location – From Eden to the World
The only thing that happened was education – knowledge – and relocation
God established the CONTEST of Gen 3:14-24 – GOD DID IT – GOD’s WILL = GOD’s PLan -----------------------------------------------
Dave" Now you say you have the choice to connect or disconnect – how is that only one choice? Before Eve took a bite - (you actually wait for Adam because he is a man) - there was no ra choice Rob" You can "do faith or break faith" and you ask, how is that only one choice? Yep (keep the faith - keep the mitzvahs) or NOT – two choices – one tov – one ra ----------------------------------
DaVE" God created the tov and the ra and gave man choice - to serve the greater good ROB" In Eden the tree of GOOD, was not called the tree of Good and Evil. Dave” Nope – Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. ROb" NO Dave, the the tree of life was NOT termed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil , By the way a tree of RA cannot exist, because RA cannot exist on it's own,
BOOM – and what it’s like talking with you Mr serious You are not communicating facts – you won’t even consider the facts – all the facts of the entire world must be wrong You are religiously posturing - You do not present a discussion – you just give attitude You do not even make an intelligent statement ------------------------------------------------
Dave" You teach There was only tov - until Adan sinned then ra entered the world and everything changed Vegeterian sharks and toothless lions remember? Weeds with thorns and thistel are created new after Day 6 Sharks could eat - lions could eat - and earthquakes could now happen all after Adam chose ra - did ra appear Rob" When Adam sinned a gradual change occurred over Creation as God withdrew his powers of sustaining functional perfection.
Well at least you have softened your version – but you deny that God created this world You have another – just like the ancient Gnostics – God could not have made this flawed world – another has to be responsible
All of it is an insult to the sovierngtry of the absolute Creator --------------------------------------
Rob previous post ignored" Why not a Gordon elohiym word study? He does a great job, and it helps to understand why Jews are fixed in their view. Rob" are you ignoring my quest for this study? We would love to see why he thinks your view is polythiesm
STOP WHINING – post it – create a thread under Multidimensionalism where it belongs OMG - you are such a victum We would love to see why he thinks your view is polythiesm ---------------------------------------------
DaVE" You teach God made man to be in vain – nothing – wicked – evil – nothing – to not exist – to be nothing You are sick – who can take you seriously? You just make up this stuff and you can’t sell it to anyone rob" there you go again using a traditional man made dictionary the precepts of men. I pity your mocking. Yep – you want to rewrite scripture with your word game It fails you – the Robert method does not work We do not take you seriously
Instead I showed you dozens of verses using the word aven, both OT and NT, and all I get from you is a mock? The word ‘aven’ is not in the NT – your cross language application of your Robert method is error
Where is your discussion of my discusssion? Nothing, only a mock. The Bible defines it's own words by uses the words. Never use a dictionary.
You disregard context – or drift – and you cross languages and mix them together It is nonsense – it is not what Jeff Brenner teaches Jeff Brenner is a valued respecter of Context – and language origin - but you disagree with the PhD in Ancient Hebrew ----------------------------
Dave" Ezk 28 is about the pride of a man Rob" Jews are great poetry simile inventors of poetry readings of the torah, yet they ignore this passage. Sure the poem is about the pride of man. But it is also about the pride of a cherub.
Precept upon precept, line upon line – you Ezk 28 satan god is not supported by the bulk of scripture You have had 4 years to make your case - all you have is catholic support ----------------------------------------
But Jews see the word "cherub" meaning only to "guard" that's funny because the word "cherub" is a created creature? Yep – created to cover and protect Just as Michael was created to be the warrior
Dave" They are demons - obstacles - made by God and placed in our path by God Rob" Well you stick to that Jewish idea Dave. It is the view of Jesus Christ – his Disciples – and His immediate followers Jesus equated satan with Beelzebub – the other demon god of the Philistines
Are you calling Jesus Christ a Liar? Or just demanding that NT scripture is error You make this claim often You have you make this claim to protect your Ellen White traditions ------------------------------
And you have the hide to say God was only disciplining Job for what? God said Job was perfectly tom. Where did I say that Robert?
In Job, did the Opposer oppose God's declaration about Job? Nope – he told God the truth about human nature
In Eden, did the Opposer oppose God declaration about eating fruit from trees? Nope – the serpent told Eve the truth
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? I posted a Jewish quote that the Opposer was hedging a bet with God over Job. Hmm? The Jew does not answer the question? It is disrespectful to answer back at God like the Opposer did. Why is it disrespectful to be honest with the Lord when asked a question??
The Opposer's power brought violence upon Job, you cannot deny. I do deny – satan did not hurt anyone – satan even protected Job’s life All satan did was stand back and watch the world have its way with Job --------------------------------------------
Dave" WHAT – two choices? You claim the second choice did not exist until after Adam sinned ROb" I am saying the consequences of the choice is made observable to the creature by GOD. Consequence of choosing what?
You cannot answer choosing to disobey – choosing to let go of God’s hand – because that is a ra choice Two choices – obey or not – do tov or do ra
The creature is able to make the choice. DO you understand now? Yep – the creature Eve made the ra choice and scripture says - death came into the world to man It does not say all creation changed -------------------------------------
ROb" Uncanny: my work colleague asked me to research DMT. What is their interest? People who have schizophrenic children give it great interest
Amazing – I have met people that can solve several complicated math problems in their head at the same time – not one at a time – but all at the same time These people are usually – unruly – frustrated with life Something to slow their thoughts – to reduce the confusion
For me – today – my interest is in micro-dosing mushrooms Paul Stamos – I have several of his books Just became legal in Colorado 2023 -----------------------------------
Dave" (do you as an Aussie understand that phrase? - going postal) ROb" no In America – back in the early 70s – a post office worker went nuts (stress - had a breakdown) and shot everyone at work The first mass shooting event - 30 years before it became a thing Since the phrase – going postal – means losing your cool in public – acting out - ------------------------------
Dave" I BELIEVE THIS Claravoyance - mediums - scripture does not say ther are fake - scripture just says stay away from them Some people are BRIGHTER THAN OTHER Rob" Some see the penal gland colours over the body, yes/ Mock away non-believer
Dave" All around us - just out of view - an entire reality filled with life forms - we call angels and demons Rob" Why do you term the shedim as angels and demons? What – now you doubt there are angels? Or are you just being an ass
Dave" So why do you teach ra did not exist until AFTER Adam sinned? ROb: " Chata means to miss GOD's power, something we creatures of free will can do. WHAT does that have to do with the existence of ra
RA is a consequence of sin, - post your verse Death is the consequence of sin – Rom 5:12 --------------------------------
RobPP" But why does the atoms make RA radiation? It has to be the result of choices. Somebody who is a prince who was steward over His Creation to one world, decided to make a RA choice, so GOD allows the choice. Dave"Correct – atoms did not even move – complete frozen standstill – until Adam sinned you teach Rob" mock on. I said 4 degrees Kelvin, "not complete frozen standstill", that would be zero Kelvin, and the earth would cease to exist. What biological life exist at 4 degrees kelvin?
Dave" Have no idea what your statement even means ROb" James Tabor asked the question why is Satan the god of this world, if God was / is the god of this world?
How did the shift happen? He asked? You agree Satan is the god of this world. But Tabor does not use the term Satanas, he uses the term satan.
Answer the question – you claim you can answer his question easily Where is your answer – now you want to discuss words
Dave" Your satan is NOT the prince of this world in the OT – he is the heavenly prosecutor Your satan is the prince of this world in the NT – the Beast and devil Tell me your simple answer – how did this change happen? ROb" When Adam sinned, the prince of earth (Adam) lost his crown and the other ruler (the opposer) gained Adam's crown over earth, so the opposer is the prince of earth since that time. Rom 5 says so, a court ruling.
Yes – the BEAST is the ruler of this world – agree! agree! agree! OK – what about Hebrew satan, heavens prosecutor – of Zec 3 and Job? what happened to him? You did NOT answer the question - you gave me a statement of faith Try again - try to be serious this time Our patience here is running thin - answer the direct question
Dave" This is where you always inject your smart ass answer saying – the Jews are wrong That is not an answer – or a discussion – it is just an attitude ROb" where is your proof? Do you agree with Jewish theology or not? Be a man – take a stand – and stick with it Answer a direct question with resorting to your word games
Dave" So you claim that your satan created himself – a second creator who then changes all creation – all against God’s Will Rob "misquoting me again, you mock. So you now deny that a good angel changed himself into your satan the god of evil Did God change him?
Out of existing material ? Yes Now your talking about another word If your satan did not change himself – who changed him?
ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Not only do you teach your satan created himself - but recreated 1/3rd of all God's angels Then you teach that he single handedly recreated God's creation into a flawed world - against God's Will
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Post by rob on Oct 27, 2023 6:20:23 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" For four years you have been challenged to find one pre-Roman source for your Ezk 28 satan god
Rob" "Where is it"? In the torah (Ezk 28) that tells me a cherub sinned before man sinned. Jews ignore the passage intentionally : do not want any power opposing their monotheism doctrine. You on the other hand cannot show me a scholar STUDY proving satanas is different to satan, though you did find one scholar who quotes, not really a strong case for you. Dave" Because it is not the the Jewish literature you presented hereRob" Maybe Jews intentionally do not want any power opposing their monotheism doctrine. You should investigate Gordons word study on elohiym If you create a thread for your Gordon guy – you will probably NOT put it under the Multidimesional heading Just to be an ass I do not believe your pretend ignorance – you are game playing
Rob" What? What is Multidimesional heading? some way to attract visitor hits or readers/ maybe? How about you create the thread, and I will join you there. Dave" Who takes you serious ?Rob" Two work colleagues at my workplace, discuss religion with me and respect my views of Scripture. Really Dave, just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? I have never heard of it before. Is there even a website for their doctrines, like a proper church does? DAVE" No one agrees that it means to do the right prayers or the right rituals or have the right dietRob" I never said any of those things. DO you really listen to me, or make stuff up? Dave" BELIEF is all that is required Rob" Amanuah is not based on belief only. That is just a tiny part of amanuh, it is an action word. Dave" All I have done for four years is discuss your love for your satan godRob" Well the discussion of this topic is closed. I gave you evidence the Opposer opposes God, you deny the evidence. You also cannot supply any scholar discussing why satanas is a different word to satan, thus we have two different creatures in the torah. So this Opposer study is done. If you create the thread, discussing Gordon's word study on elohiym, my Hypothesis will be" Does the Hebrew word elohiym mean a single cardinal one of strong authority?" Gordon Nemiah argues the case for yes. I will argue the case for no. I will invite you, to discuss Gordon's material with me. Dave" You have been on the attack to prove both Judaism and Christianity wrongRob" If you don't want to know the Hebrew torah truth, say so plainly, and we can depart as friends in a friendly manner. Do you really think an Opposer would want humans to read the Torah correctly? Just another proof the Opposer opposes God. Even Jews speak of the devil snatching seeds of truth from humans. A prosecutor is not supposed to do this. Do shedim snatch truth seeds from humans? Dave" And I have been defended myself against Ellen White’s teachingRob" I have not posted any of her teachings, just her quotes to allow my teachings to have stronger merit. I am sorry if I have misused her quotes. Dave" you want to make an entire thread to demonstrate how a messianic jews think your view is polytheistic – Hmmm?Rob" Jews do not understand "echad" and the "two become one flesh" they also do not undestand "a wifes naked body is her husbands" Lev 18. Jews have no understand of "aven" either. Can one ask a Jew what the word "Arum" means? is there a Jewish lexicon for Hebrew word meanings? that would be nice. Dave" Why are you pretending to be too ignorant to navigate this forum?Rob" I do not like technology that much, keep things simple. Dave" Yet – you claim to be highly educated – an expert evenRob" I never made that claim. Dave" Prove to us why he says you teach polythiesmRob" That is not my hypothesis. I wish to understand the Hebrew meaning of elohiym. In doing a study into this 12 years ago, I came across Gordon's study. It's a great study, but I disagree with his discussion, not disagree with his study. Jews has a fixed biased towards only one strong authority in heaven, regardless of evidence against this idea. Dave" But you argue – that choice did not exist – until Eve chose itRob" Are you mocking again. Eve has a choice, two fruit trees in the Garden. Both fruits were tov, by the way. Eating one of the fruits was forbidden by God. You we have a choice. To obey God in faith, or break faith and empower self. Once the choice is made with actions of eating a forbidden fruit, the RA was created by GOD, ie Eve felt guilty. Later other consequences happened immediately. Dave" Then all creation changed – against God’s WillROb" If God cursed creation, how can it be against God's will? Or are you mocking me again? Dave" Nothing ever died – ( Absolute Nonsense – stupid – childish – pagan – designed to keep the educated away)Rob" Are you OK? God is living, is He not? In God's world nothing ever dies, not even picked flowers in heaven. Dave" Your only evidence is that the whole world has to be wrong except you – BULL SHIT BUDDYRob" You deny Scripture... Here is the Scripture, BEFORE Adam sinned too Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. This verse says all animals were herbivores. Can't find a single Jewish commentary on this verse or it's theme : herbivores. ============== Dave" You are religiously posturing - You do not present a discussion – you just give attitudeROB"' Oh, I am sorry. So according to your view, God is a creator of both tov and ra. (I assume you have no restrictions, God can create RA any time He likes to) In my view, God is a creator of tov only, in a sinless domain. ( In my view, God only creates RA in a sinning domain). SO explain to me, how your God is a God of love? You present "peace and violence" , natural death and decaying, "decomposition and fossilization", even darkness comes first with God. So your model presents GOD as a god of love and hate. In my model, God is always tov, neer breaks his own moral laws, is always perfect in love with sinners but hates their sinning. God has to create RA, so sinning can be sin in God's perfect world. SO explain to me, how your God is a God of love? Dave" You do not even make an intelligent statementRob" Oh I am sorry you feel that way. 1Jo 4:8 ..God is love. Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, La 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Jews quote this verse saying GOD only ever does tov) Dave" P eople who have schizophrenic children give it great interest
Amazing – I have met people that can solve several complicated math problems in their head at the same time – not one at a time – but all at the same time These people are usually – unruly – frustrated with life Something to slow their thoughts – to reduce the confusion
For me – today – my interest is in micro-dosing mushrooms Paul Stamos – I have several of his books Just became legal in Colorado 2023Rob" My work mate says DMT is used to link humans to a vision somewhere else. Another world? Dave" Since the phrase – going postal – means losing your cool in public – acting out -Rob" like in Australia, we say "flog the dog". Dave" Mock away non-believerRob" Really Dave, I read Buddha monks train to see colours over humans from the pineal gland. " Some people are BRIGHTER THAN OTHERS" So I am not mocking, but agreeing with you. Dave" What – now you doubt there are angels?Rob" Not what I said. Sure there are angels. I asked " Why do you term the shedim as angels and demons?" Your archon theory is not about angels, as shedim, it's only about archons as shedim. Your archon creature is not a angel creature. Both are different creatures? Or have you taught me wrong over the years? Dave" RA is a consequence of sin, - post your verseRob" so you deny RA comes from sin? 1) Why did God curse the ground when Adam sinned? Ge 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: RA is a consequence of SIN Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. Job did not sin to get this RA upon him. But RA did come according to Job, so why did the RA come? Jews really study JOB along these lines, but I have not found a really good answer from them, though some were really great. Isa 3:9 ¶ The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. RA is a consequence of SIN Jer 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin. God can do RA or allow RA to happen, as a consequence of sin. Dave" What biological life exist at 4 degrees kelvin?Rob" Only sinning cherubims on the earth. Dave" How did the shift happen? He asked?Rob" ALready told you how... Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, When Adam sinned a heavenly court ruled condemnation over Adam. Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, SO when Adam sinned the humans are 1) established as sinners or 2) something was established to rule over humans making us sinners I see Kathestemi meaning "things are established to rule" hence in laymen terms "rule" When Adam sinned the Opposer became prince of this world. Dave" Tell me your simple answer – how did this change happen?Rob" when Adam sinned, a change of rulership happened. Dave" Yes – the BEAST is the ruler of this world – agree! agree! agree! OK – what about Hebrew satan, heavens prosecutor – of Zec 3 and Job? what happened to him? You did NOT answer the question - you gave me a statement of faith Try again - try to be serious this time Our patience here is running thin - answer the direct questionRob" wow, you agree ! In my view the Opposer and the Beast is the same being. Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, You see Greek word as different to the Hebrew word. I see them as the same. You cannot provide a scholar who can explain your view, only one who quotes. Yet I have tried to look for some scholar for you, but I too failed. No study exists on satanas.Dave" So you now deny that a good angel changed himself into your satan the god of evil Did God change him?ROB" What? Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. La 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? God did not change the sinning angel, when you are ruled by self, you own powers leads you astray. Dave" If your satan did not change himself – who changed him?
ANSWER THE QUESTION!ROB" Nobody did. When Adam sinned, who changed Adam into fearing God with fear? Nobody did. Adam was fearful because he sinned. Dave" Not only do you teach your satan created himself - but recreated 1/3rd of all God's angels Then you teach that he single handedly recreated God's creation into a flawed world - against God's WillROB" I teach nothing of the sort. Mock again. Ask questions and post things correctly. I do this to you. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 27, 2023 8:54:46 GMT -5
Dave" For four years you have been challenged to find one pre-Roman source for your Ezk 28 satan god Rob" "Where is it"? In the torah (Ezk 28) Yep – that is all you have two word from one verse – and the blessing of Roman catholicismPrecept uon precept, line upon line - you cannot defend your view - or you would have more than just two word from one verseYou on the other hand cannot show me a scholar STUDY proving satanas is different to satan, Here we are in the Jewish Library- show me Jewish study that proves the NT satan is the Hebrew prosecutor. Dave" Because it is not the the Jewish literature you presented here Rob" Maybe Jews intentionally do not want any power opposing their monotheism doctrine. DUH – Judaism is monotheistic – just like Christianity Ellen White teaches you a polytheistic family of multiple gods (NOT Judeo-Christian)---------------------------------------------------- You should investigate Gordons word study on elohiym BRING IT ON!Rob" What? What is Multidimesional heading Your pretend ignorance is not attractiveReally Dave, just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? I have never heard of it before. Is there even a website for their doctrines, like a proper church does? Paul teaches Gnostic ChristianityJames, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas have all written things you consider GnosticYou ask- How much scripture is Gnostic?Was Paul a Gnostic? 10 min video 0:12 - Paul wrote 25% of the Christian Canon What is Canon? – I have heard 85% of the NT is Paul – but now we question if he wrote everything traditions says he did 0:34 - Gnostic Sages used Paul – embraced Paul – therefore Paul is Gnostic Truth – Nag Hammadi does not quote Mathew, Mark, or Luke – but quote Corinthians – Ephesians – and John 0:40 - Ever hear of Paulian Christianity - Elane Page calls it Gnostic Christianity 0:50 - The Nag Hammadi contains – ‘The Prayer of Paul’ and ‘The Apocalypse of Paul’ therefore Paul is a Gnostic 1:48 – Gnostic “SECRET KNOWLEDGE” – Baptism of the Holy Spirit Paul never met Jesus in life – PAUL HAD AN EXPERIENCE on the road to Damascus Really Dave, just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? I posted this short video just for you - now you say you never even looked at it - Mr SeriousReally Dave, just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? Gee Robert - just how popular is Paul to Christianity?I have never heard of it before. Your understanding of the NT is lacking - you have no idea where it came from or how it got to be Canon Is there even a website for their doctrines, like a proper church does?What is Pauline Christianity? - www.gotquestions.org/Pauline-Christianity.htmlPauline Christianity is a term applied to what some perceive as the religious teaching unique to Paul’s writings and distinct from the gospel of Jesus. That is, Jesus taught one thing, and Paul taught something completely different. Pauline Christianity – What is it? - www.compellingtruth.org/Pauline-Christianity.htmlPauline Christianity refers to the teachings of Christianity as expressed in the New Testament writings of the apostle Paul. The term is generally used by those who believe Paul expressed different teachings from the Gospel of Jesus and promote the idea that Paul's Christianity is much different from the Gospel of Jesus. Mark, James, and at first Peter taught Messianic Judaism – Judaism and all its laws + the Messiah Paul, taught Gnostic spirituality - as John did – spirit – be filled with the spirit – baptism of the Holy SpiritJames and Peter called Paul to Jerusalem to explain himself Despite unique areas of emphasis in Paul's writings, it is clear his message was the same as that taught by the other early followers of Jesus. He wrote in Galatians 2:9, "when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised." Paul's mission work focused on Gentiles rather than the Jews, yet the message was the same—a message of faith in Jesus Christ as God's risen Savior After hearing Paul’s testimony – taken into heaven – spirit to Spirit – face to Face encounter with Christ James and Peter could not stop Paul – what could they say? Eventually – James, Peter, John, Paul, Phillip, and Thomas all write of spiritual Gnostic Christianity As I said – you have never studied the NT Your understanding is lacking and you do not seem open to learning anything You claim to be a religious guy >25 years - why don't you understand the NT Gospel? DAVE" No one agrees that it means to do the right prayers or the right rituals or have the right diet Rob" I never said any of those things. DO you really listen to me, or make stuff up? Dave" BELIEF is all that is required Rob" Amanuah is not based on belief only. That is just a tiny part of amanuh, it is an action word.You teach it is not about belief it is about doing things – NOT Judeo-Christian All that is required is belief and confess
Dave" All I have done for four years is discuss your love for your satan god Rob" Well the discussion of this topic is closed. I gave you evidence the Opposer opposes God, you deny the evidence. Yep – two words from one verseIf you create the thread, discussing Gordon's word study on elohiym, my Hypothesis will be" Does the Hebrew word elohiym mean a single cardinal one of strong authority?" Gordon Nemiah argues the case for yes. Correct – the 3 are 1 = TrinityI will argue the case for no.Correct – you disagree with this Messianic Jew – you want to argue a pantheon of multiple gods It is the typical pagan answerRob" If you don't want to know the Hebrew torah truth, say so plainly, and we can depart as friends in a friendly manner. Do you really think an Opposer would want humans to read the Torah correctly? Just another proof the Opposer opposes God. Even Jews speak of the devil snatching seeds of truth from humans. A prosecutor is not supposed to do this. Do shedim snatch truth seeds from humans? The prosecutor is not a shedim – only you cannot see the difference --------------------------------------- Rob" Jews do not understand "echad" and the "two become one flesh" they also do not undestand "a wifes naked body is her husbands" Lev 18. Jews have no understand of "aven" either. Can one ask a Jew what the word "Arum" means? is there a Jewish lexicon for Hebrew word meanings? that would be nice. Correct – that is you only solution to protect Ellen White – for 5000 years the Jew have to be wrong You do not support Judeo-Christianity – you belong to a different religious cult------------------------------------- Dave" Yet – you claim to be highly educated – an expert even Rob" I never made that claim. You claim to be smarter than a dictionary – smarter than Jeff Brenner – you demand that the whole world is wrong – you demand that Judaism is wrong - and you have the authority to rewrite scripture
Dave" Prove to us why he says you teach polythiesm Rob" That is not my hypothesis. I wish to understand the Hebrew meaning of elohiym. No you do not want to understand – you just want to argue how wrong theyIn doing a study into this 12 years ago, I came across Gordon's study. It's a great study, but I disagree with his discussion Correct – you disagree with Judaism------------------------------- Dave" But you argue – that choice did not exist – until Eve chose it Rob" Are you mocking again. Eve has a choice, two fruit trees in the Garden. Both fruits were tov, by the way. Eating one of the fruits was forbidden by God. So now you say God created the good and the good – but there was a LAWYour getting closerYou we have a choice. To obey God in faith, or break faith and empower self.Yep – two choice – one tov and one ra - OH - "God or SELF"= 'God or World' - that's what I sayOnce the choice is made with actions of eating a forbidden fruit, the RA was created by GOD, ie Eve felt guilty. Later other consequences happened immediately. Yep - the Tree of Life was withheld and Adam and Eve were ejected from Eden Now man has to face the world and toil for his food - then die like all biology does
Dave" Then all creation changed – against God’s Will ROb" If God cursed creation, how can it be against God's will?EXACTLY – How can it be against God’s Will – it is God’s Plan – has always been God’s PlanYou argue your satan created himself agaisnt God's Will Then your satan spoiled all of God creation against God's Will Now you say - how can it be against God's will?EXCATLY MY POINT and the point of Judaism - all of it is God's Will / God's PlanYou say God's Plan was to make a tov world - then against God's Will your satan spoiled God's PlanOr are you mocking me again?You are the one claiming that all creation changed because your satan spoiled it allDave" Nothing ever died – ( Absolute Nonsense – stupid – childish – pagan – designed to keep the educated away) Rob" Are you OK? God is living, is He not? In God's world nothing ever dies, not even picked flowers in heaven. Correct – you teach Don Patton NonsenseShow me your evidenceDave" Your only evidence is that the whole world has to be wrong except you – BULL SHIT BUDDY Rob" You deny Scripture... Here is the Scripture, BEFORE Adam sinned too Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. This verse says all animals were herbivores. Can't find a single Jewish commentary on this verse or it's theme : herbivores. Why would a Jew try to ptove a negative?Prove the negative - can you NO Your argument - a restuarant says Free Unlimited Salad Bar You read this and say - they serve NO meat Prove the negativeMuseams are filled with fossiles that existed before Adam - surely there must be some emperical evidence Prove your negative - where is your evidence All you have is the creationist credo ============== Dave" You are religiously posturing - You do not present a discussion – you just give attitude ROB"' Oh, I am sorry. So according to your view, God is a creator of both tov and ra. YES – I believe scripture – why don’t you? You so easily buy Don Patton's crap and Ellen Whites' crap - yet you refuse scripture and 5000 years of JudaismI assume you have no restrictions, God can create RA any time He likes to Sorry – creation is closed – end with Day 6 I know you teach that weeds were created after Day 6 – but it is not scripturalIn my view, God is a creator of tov only, in a sinless domain. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens ...In my view, God only creates RA in a sinning domainGen 1:1 In the beginning God created the … Earth (physical creation with entropy)SO explain to me, how your God is a God of love?1- God created the good – this amazing creation that testifies to Him 2- God placed man here to witness to God’s Glory 3- God created the greater Good – salvation and the opportunity to share eternal life with God
In my model, God is always tov, neer breaks his own moral laws, is always perfect in love with sinners but hates their sinning. God has to create RA, so sinning can be sin in God's perfect world. OK – God did it – I can agree with this Dave" People who have schizophrenic children give it great interest Rob" My work mate says DMT is used to link humans to a vision somewhere else. Another world? YES – that is its reputation – in large dosesIt is not another world they see – they just see a larger reality – a look into the next closest dimension / heaven around usDave" Mock away non-believerRob" Really Dave, I read Buddha monks train to see colours over humans from the pineal gland. "Some people are BRIGHTER THAN OTHERS" So I am not mocking, but agreeing with you. I am talking about spirit – near death people seeing heaven or hell and returning Do you now accept the spiritual – or are you mocking?Dave" What – now you doubt there are angels? Rob" Not what I said. Sure there are angels. I asked " Why do you term the shedim as angels and demons?" Your archon theory is not about angels, as shedim, it's only about archons as shedim. Your archon creature is not a angel creature. Both are different creatures? Or have you taught me wrong over the years? BOOM _ and what it’s like talking with you Dave" RA is a consequence of sin, - post your verseRob" so you deny RA comes from sin? 1) Why did God curse the ground when Adam sinned? To make life hard for man – DUHNOW ANSWER THE QUESTION – post your verseWhere does scripture say God made ra as a consequence of sin Ge 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: Yep – to harm another is sin – correctNow answer the question - Where does scripture say God made ra as a consequence of sinJob did not sin to get this RA upon him. But RA did come according to Job, so why did the RA come?You claim it’s because Job sinned - RA is a consequence of sin,Everyone else says it was a part of God testing JobDave" How did the shift happen? He asked? Rob" ALready told you how... Rob" when Adam sinned, a change of rulership happened. Dave" Yes – the BEAST is the ruler of this world – agree! agree! agree! OK – what about Hebrew satan, heavens prosecutor – of Zec 3 and Job? what happened to him? You did NOT answer the question - you gave me a statement of faith Try again - try to be serious this time Our patience here is running thin - answer the direct question You cannot provide a scholar who can explain your view, WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER?Your only possible answer is that Judaism is wrong and it has always been wrong That is not an answer – it is an attitudeDave" So you now deny that a good angel changed himself into your satan the god of evil Did God change him? ROB" What? Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Oh – so you agree that your satan god created himself – changed himself Dave" If your satan did not change himself – who changed him? ANSWER THE QUESTION! ROB" Nobody did. If no one changed your good-angel cherub into your god of evil – how did he change Dave" Not only do you teach your satan created himself - but recreated 1/3rd of all God's angels Then you teach that he single handedly recreated God's creation into a flawed world - against God's Will ROB" I teach nothing of the sort. Mock again. So now you deny all your creationist teaching?What is it that you do believe? It is impossible to tell. You post something – then deny it. The only thing we know for sure is that you hate Judeao-Christian theology You go so far as to call Jesus wrong and the NT error - Which is just offensiveand desire to replace it with Ellen White satanism
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Post by rob on Oct 27, 2023 16:47:23 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Sabbath
Dave" Yep – that is all you have two word from one verse Rob" Glad you admit I use torah, and the torah theme exists in the torah. You just ignore the verse.
Dave" DUH – Judaism is monotheistic – just like Christianity Ellen White teaches you a polytheistic family of multiple gods (NOT Judeo-Christian) Rob" Christian church teach the Catholic idea of trinity, and now even the SDA teach this idea, back in 1980 the SDA never used the word. The word trinity is a Catholic invention. Jews intentionally do not want any power opposing their monotheism doctrine. Hence the reason they have a fixed bias. -------------
RobPP" Really Dave, just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? Dave" I posted this short video just for you - now you say you never even looked at it - Mr Serious Rob" Like I said Dave (I watched your video) just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? Where is your website to the church assembly and their doctrines?
How many assemblies do you have world wide?
The reformation era, rising from the dark ages of Catholism is a strong proof of the rise of God in his churches of truth, for many church movements arose from that time. Re 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
In this passage, beginning from the end of the dark ages until the beginning of the colonization time, the refromation churches arose, called by GOD. Men like Huss, Luther, Wyclif to name a few, arose with truth different to the Catholic truth. (All churches have some truth) I do not see any Gnostic church arising from the reformation era?
So in the reformation churches there is some truth in all of them, for God judges you by the truth you live up to. ----------------- Amanuh faith word
Dave" You teach it is not about belief it is about doing things – NOT Judeo-Christian All that is required is belief and confess Rob" Are you sure Jews see faith as belief and confess? What about trust? Is trust not an action word, that is relational?
I think you have better quote Jewish quotes to prove your case, because I think you are wrong even with Jews.
In my reading of Jewish material they seem to base their faith in their human powers, and establish righteousness that way, which means nothing to God, sadly.
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
That word "submitted" means to "surrender"
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
The word of faith Does this word of faith remain in the mind, as only a belief concept? no
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart
Faith is empowered in your mouth and your brain that makes the mouth speak.
SO faith is a action word, based on speaking the words of God.
Jews do this daily as Paul writes, but the Jew does not surrender to the words they speak, hence their power is only human power, not a power flowing from God.
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
And when you get the words of faith, what happens than?
In Romans 11, Paul speaks of being grafted into the tree of GOD. We are the branches. God is the trunk.
It is by mercy and grace through faith, we are grafted unto the tree of GOD.
Ro 12:4 For as we have many members in one body,
Why does Paul speak of many members in one body? ( a hint of elohiym ?)
If GOD is a creator of both TOV and RA, why does Paul say
Ro 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good
Same as Lam 3:38, God does not do RA, God is only Tov.
Ro 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
Again the purpose of faith is to have a flow of power from GOD into you, not by human power.
Ro 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:
Sin is the result of resisting the flow of God into you.
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Paul quotes the ten laws of love here as supreme.
Ro 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,
Some of us have more faith than others, Paul speaks of this here.
Notice the chapter is about actions, what a human does, ie eating in this case.
Ro 14:23 ...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Paul defines sin as a breaking of faith. In fact the ten laws of love written on stone are principles of faith, not thou shalt not do's as people assume.
Dave" Gordon Nemiah argues the case for yes. Correct – the 3 are 1 = Trinity ROb" wooh hang on Dave, Jews do not consider 3 in 1 as I understand the Jew.
Show my any Jewish quotes that G-D is 3 in 1, and what would a Jew mean by this idea? -------------------------
Dave" you want to argue a pantheon of multiple gods ROB" I do not argue a pantheon of multiple gods
Show me a Jewish quote saying G-D is 3 in 1. I don't think you can?
Dave" for 5000 years the Jew have to be wrong Rob" If Jews are right, why did Paul write Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
So who is right? Paul or those Jews? Paul was a Jew.
Dave" You do not support Judeo-Christianity – you belong to a different religious cult ROb" I support Paul, and the torah as the torah writes.
Something is wrong with Jewish reading of the torah, or Paul would not have written what he did.
Paul was not Gnostic either, whatever you mean by that.
Dave" Correct – you disagree with Judaism ROB" Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
SO Paul is wrong too to write against his own people?
Dave" You are the one claiming that all creation changed because your satan spoiled it all ROb" Dave, can a spoiler spoil things? Can somebody cut the brake pipes under your car and change the way you drive?
Can somebody oppose Dave and become an Opposer to Dave. We term this as a Stalker. Is this even possible? Would it change the way Dave lives in his house, if a Spoiler came by your house and let a AK88 array of bullets go into the house every now and than. Would it change the way you live as Lord of your own home?
What about the COV19 vaccine, would that change you Dave? Suppose there is graphene oxide in your blood system, now stays there forever, do we suspect any changes to the spoiling of your heart system? Would there be any people dying suddenly on the media?
The blood clots people experience, that doctors now investigate, are these evidence of Spoilers spoiling humans, and thus changing the nature humans live?
Dave" Show me your evidence Rob" Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Dave" Why would a Jew try to prove a negative? Rob" Answer the question Dave: Does this verse Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Say all animals were given herbs for meat? (food) SO all animals were originally herbivores.
Do you agree with this verse Dave?
Before Adam sinned, is this verse.
Dave" Museums are filled with fossils that existed before Adam Rob" What a joke? How do you prove this Dave? If the flood was global, all evidence before the flood is contaminated by evidence after the flood. Duh
All I have is this verse
Before Adam sinned, is this verse. Ge 1:30 SO all animals were originally herbivores.
Do you agree with this verse Dave?
I do not need empirical evidence , the torah is empirical evidence . What are you posing Dave?
Dave" YES – I believe scripture – why don’t you? based on Rob's reply of "So according to your view, God is a creator of both tov and ra."
Rob" Show me a Jewish quote who agrees with you?
"God is a creator of both tov and RA" Jews say the darkness was first over the earth. And than God said let there be light. Jews say darkness is a simile of sin. So in my weak understanding of Jews, Darkness was not created by GOD during Creation, it existed as darkness from some other reason, before the Creation over earth.
I suspect the darkness existed from sinning angels, and GOD places another Creation over the earth (with is existing conditions).
The torah does not say the earth was created from scratch like the other planets were. It already existed void and formless, from a condition imposed upon it, because of sinning angels banished there. ---------------------
Rob PP" SO explain to me, how your God is a God of love? Dave" 1- God created the good – this amazing creation that testifies to Him 2- God placed man here to witness to God’s Glory 3- God created the greater Good – salvation and the opportunity to share eternal life with God Rob" try again, stop beating the bush as you do.
I asked you if GOD is a creator of Both RA and TOV, explain how a world of peace and violence is a good world showing love?
A world of natural death is a example of God as living?
A world of decomposition is an example of God's living?
There is nothing amazing about violence.
SO I take it the shedim were created also in this grand creation of yours, to make violence to humans also, an example of God as a loving God?
ROBPP" In my model, God is always tov, never breaks his own moral laws, is always perfect in love with sinners but hates their sinning. God has to create RA, so sinning can be seen in God's perfect world. Dave" OK – God did it – I can agree with this Rob" what parts do you agree to Dave?
WHAT IF" David Icke wonderful learning tool
WHAT IF cherubs sinned against GOD? And so GOD banished them to earth. What would earth look like Dave?
(a) Would earth have Tov and RA all over the earth?
or
(b) Would earth have just RA over the earth? (That means 4 degrees Kelvin, no air, no moving atoms, no formed rocks or hills, or mountains, or water as liquid, or anything like a creation of TOV, just sinning angels banished there in darkness, the absence of light)
Which option Dave (a/b)?
Prove to me the planet (Frozen void and formless ball) was created along with the earth (land that came out of the frozen ball) was actually created from scratch as evolution teaches, and Christians assume from some big bang?
God approaches this ball already in existence with darkness already on it, and says Let there be light. ---------------
Dave" It is not another world they see – they just see a larger reality – a look into the next closest dimension / heaven around us Rob" I see. Dave" Do you now accept the spiritual – or are you mocking? Rob" I accept what I can, and would never mock or make fun of you Dave, not like you post about me.
Sure I do not accept a spark spirit thing in a human, but I do support the pineal gland enables us to see brighter natures over the human skin. Dave" I am talking about spirit – near death people seeing heaven or hell and returning Rob" Hmm? I refrain from comment. If the torah says not to go there with other mediums, we should not discuss anything about the mediums, and how other mediums might work. ----------------
Dave" You claim it’s because Job sinned - RA is a consequence of sin, Everyone else says it was a part of God testing Job Rob" HMM? OK you got me on this point.
I still support RA is a consequence of sin. So if JOB was declared sinless, why did the RA come upon him?
My answer is the Opposer is a sinning cherub and thus the RA that came over JOB was the result of the sinning cherub sinning over JOB, ie doing RA intentionally so JOB might sin against GOD. "all is in thy power" tells me the Opposer has power to do RA.
In this case the sinning comes from the Opposer, and the RA is the consequence of the Opposer sinning against JOB
This is the only way "an oposing elohiym power" could work, if the Opposer is an true opposing elohiym power in the first place. Thanks for the question, but you are stretch me to enter into things too high for me. Ps 131
Jews do not consider the Opposer as an opposing elohiym power, for this spoils their idea of Monotheism, one power alone is allowed to rule. Now I have just posed another "elohiym power" is allowed to rule, and has RA power alloted to Him (by God - the supreme source of all power), to use as the elohiym power wishes to use, in this case for RA against Job.
Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep,
Is this not a terrible translation. What would Gordon say?
Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of Elohiym is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep,
Question" Which elohiym fire is this ?
Is it from the true elohiym power? Lam 3:38, NO
Is it from the false elohiym power? Yes (all is in thy power) tells us that the true elohiym power allocates power to the opposing elohiym power, to oppose mankind. Can the opposer oppose God directly? No, so the Opposer opposes man instead, and God's right to save man from the Opposer, who causes man to sin. ( I am happy to rewrite my statements a little different now, thanks to your Jewish influence)
Can an elohiym power that is NOT from the Most High, cause fire to fall from heaven? Yes, see 1 Kings
1Ki 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken. SO other elohiym power exists, and even can make fire fall from heaven.
Who is this false elohiym power? The Ha-Satan, known as the Opposer.
Dave" If no one changed your good-angel cherub into your god of evil – how did he change ROb:" Scripture does not explain
Dave" What is it that you do believe? It is impossible to tell. You post something – then deny it. Rob" If you can't understand, ask. Stop making up stuff I did not say. I have a website that explains, read that. You don't have one like I do with detailed details.
Dave" You go so far as to call Jesus wrong and the NT error - Which is just offensive ROb" there you go again, mocking. Make up stuff.
Now I gave you some homework
(1) Jewish quotes that prove your 3 in 1 idea (2) Jewish quotes that prove the first animals were not herbivores, torah says all animals were herbivores.
(3) you won't find Jewish quotes on JOB about the Opposer as a false elohiym power, the monotheism doctrine forbids them to comment or speculate.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 27, 2023 18:48:34 GMT -5
Dave" Yep – that is all you have two word from one verse Rob" Glad you admit I use torah, and the torah theme exists in the torah. You just ignore the verse. Do not ignore – all Jewish commentaries on it are about the pride of man
Precept upon precept, line upon line - scripture does not validate you satan as a seld-made god If it did you would have more than two word of one verse after 4 years of research on your part ------------------------------------
Dave" DUH – Judaism is monotheistic – just like Christianity Ellen White teaches you a polytheistic family of multiple gods (NOT Judeo-Christian) Rob" Christian church teach the Catholic idea of trinity, Yep – the 3 are 1 Judaism always was a duality – God the Father and the shekinah – the Spirit f God that moves among the people God came to earth in the image of a man – duality is now a trinity Not complicate or confusing
Jews intentionally do not want any power opposing their monotheism doctrine. DUH – it is the definition of monotheism – only one God You do not accept the idea of only ONE GOD – you teach a pagan pantheon of multiple gods -------------
RobPP" Really Dave, just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? Dave" I posted this short video just for you - now you say you never even looked at it - Mr Serious Rob" Like I said Dave (I watched your video) just how popular is Gnostic Christianity? Where is your website to the church assembly and their doctrines? The teaching of Paul – but you deny the NT and call it error
How many assemblies do you have world wide? Paul started the churches in Galatia, Phillipi, Thessalonica, Ephesis, Corinth, and Rome -----------------
Dave" You teach it is not about belief it is about doing things – NOT Judeo-Christian All that is required is belief and confess Rob" Are you sure Jews see faith as belief and confess? Boom – mix two different ages together to make nonsense question
Dave" Gordon Nemiah argues the case for yes. Correct – the 3 are 1 = Trinity ROb" wooh hang on Dave, Jews do not consider 3 in 1 as I understand the Jew. Nope – mixing two different ages together to make a nonsense question Jews had a duality – God + Spirit Christians accept that God came to earth as a man = Trinity -------------------------
Dave" you want to argue a pantheon of multiple gods ROB" I do not argue a pantheon of multiple gods Then post your Gordon Nemiah and prove to us why he thinks you polythiesm
Dave" for 5000 years the Jew have to be wrong Rob" If Jews are right, why did Paul write Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Two post ago you jumped up and down Paul never contradicted the Torah Now you post your version of the contradiction What do you stand for Robert – you cannot seriously preach both
So who is right? Paul or those Jews? Paul was a Jew. Depends if you accept spiritual Gnostic Christianity as Paul taught -----------------------------------
Dave" You do not support Judeo-Christianity – you belong to a different religious cult ROb" I support Paul, and the torah as the torah writes. Something is wrong with Jewish reading of the torah, or Paul would not have written what he did.
Once again – for the 37th time OT Judaism was about God’s nation (1%) vrs the other nations and their demon gods (99%) Sure the BEAST was mentioned – shed / shades / Lilith / satyrs – demon gods But the focus was proving to all the nations of the world that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God NT – is a spiritual conversion – now the struggle is between YOU and the WORLD with its Archon
Paul was not Gnostic either, whatever you mean by that. Paul was very much Gnostic in his teaching – in his message is a Gnostic message Not obedience to a Law – but a spiritual conversion
Dave" Correct – you disagree with Judaism ROB" Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. SO Paul is wrong too to write against his own people? Totally Paul’s message – zeal for the Law – but do not understand
Dave" You are the one claiming that all creation changed because your satan spoiled it all ROb" Dave, can a spoiler spoil things? Can somebody cut the brake pipes under your car and change the way you drive? That is not the question Last post you said – How can anything not be God’s Will Is it God’s Will – God’s Plan – or NOT Did God do it – or you did your satan god force God to change His Plan against His will
2Dave" Show me your evidence Rob" Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. This is a true statement because LIFE LIVES But what does it have to do with animals before Gen 3?
Dave" Why would a Jew try to prove a negative? Rob" Answer the question Dave: Does this verse Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Say all animals were given herbs for meat? (food) Yes it says that – where does it prove the negative?
Dave" Museums are filled with fossils that existed before Adam Rob" What a joke? How do you prove this Dave? If the flood was global, all evidence before the flood is contaminated by evidence after the flood. Duh 1- The fossil record was laid down long before the flood 2- the only way Don Patton is correct as if all the world is wrong ------------------------------
Dave" YES – I believe scripture – why don’t you? based on Rob's reply of "So according to your view, God is a creator of both tov and ra." Rob" Show me a Jewish quote who agrees with you? You just posted several Jewish papers claimg exactly that ---------------------
Rob PP" SO explain to me, how your God is a God of love? Dave" 1- God created the good – this amazing creation that testifies to Him 2- God placed man here to witness to God’s Glory 3- God created the greater Good – salvation and the opportunity to share eternal life with God Rob" try again, stop beating the bush as you do.
I asked you if GOD is a creator of Both RA and TOV, explain how a world of peace and violence is a good world showing love?
The Exegesis on the Soul For the beginning of salvation is repentance. Therefore (cf. Acts 13:24), "Before Christ`s appearance came John, preaching the baptism of repentance."
And repentance takes place in distress and grief. But the father is good and loves humanity, and he hears the soul that calls upon him and sends it the light of salvation. Therefore he said through the spirit to the prophet (cf. 1 Cl 8:3), "Say to the children of my people, 'If your sins extend from earth to heaven, and if they become red like scarlet and blacker than sackcloth, and if you return to me with all your soul and say to me 'my Father!', I will heed you as a holy people.'"
Again another place (Is 30:15), "Thus says the lord, the holy one of Israel: "If you return and sigh, then you will be saved and will know where you were when you trusted in what is empty."
Again he said in another place (Is 30:19-20), "Jerusalem wept much, saying, 'Have pity on me.' He will have pity on the sound of your weeping. And when he saw, he heeded you. And the lord will give you bread of affliction and water of oppression. From now on, those who deceive will not approach you again. Your eyes will see those who are deceiving you."
Therefore it is fitting to pray to God night and day, spreading out our hands towards him as do people sailing in the middle of the sea: they pray to God with all their heart without hypocrisy. For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves. Indeed, it is in order that he might know who is worthy of salvation that God examines the inward parts and searches the bottom of the heart. For no one is worthy of salvation who still loves the place of deception. -------------------------------------
A world of natural death is a example of God as living? Nature teaches us the Gospel – birth – growth to maturity – death – and new life It is the parade of the Jews – Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Purim, Peasch, Shavout It is the message of Jesus Christ – from the beginning – you need to repent – God is with you – Salvation is by the Lord – Passover – and Pentecost
SO I take it the shedim were created also in this grand creation of yours, to make violence to humans also, an example of God as a loving God? Were alligators created to hurt man? – NO they are just animal living by (yester ra) Were microbes created to hurt man? – NO they are just animal living by (yester ra) The Archon was created to devour and consume creation – Rev 12:4 Creation will wind down and waste away – God’s plan – Rev 21:1-2 Do the archon get in our way spiritually – YES
Why – BECAUSE GOD ESTABLISHED THE CONTEST OF GEN 3:14-24 God established the enmity between man and the serpents seed
Gnostic Paul says – they our our real struggle Gnostic Paul also says – they were created by God for God – Col 1:16
ROBPP" In my model, God is always tov, never breaks his own moral laws, Explain why GOD ESTABLISHED THE CONTEST OF GEN 3:14-24 It is not the result of your satan god rebelling, hating, and opposing God It is God making life hard for man - GOD DID IT
Dave" OK – God did it – I can agree with this Rob" what parts do you agree to Dave? All God’s Plan – All God’s Will – because God is absolute and sovereign ---------------
Dave" It is not another world they see – they just see a larger reality – a look into the next closest dimension / heaven around us Dave" Do you now accept the spiritual – or are you mocking? Sure I do not accept a spark spirit thing in a human,
Dave" I am talking about spirit – near death people seeing heaven or hell and returning Rob" Hmm? I refrain from comment. If the torah says not to go there with other mediums, Be serious – what does a medium have to do with a near death experience? You are just making excuses Robert – do not address the issue – avoid and deny ----------------
Dave" You claim it’s because Job sinned - RA is a consequence of sin, Everyone else says it was a part of God testing Job Rob" HMM? OK you got me on this point.
I still support RA is a consequence of sin. So if JOB was declared sinless, why did the RA come upon him? I do not know why you teach a contradiction – I have been complaining about this for a long time
Thanks for the question, but you are stretch me to enter into things too high for me. Ps 131 Caught in another contradiction – why doesn’t Ellen White’s satanology stand up? ---------------------------
Jews do not consider the Opposer as an opposing elohiym power, for this spoils their idea of Monotheism, one power alone is allowed to rule. The other gods of the Levant and the world are demons of the Beast Sure they are elohiym powers – can even do parlor tricks with nature THEY ARE NOT GOD – or anything close to God – they are created beast
Can the opposer oppose God directly? NO Correct – there can be NO Great Controversy between two gods locked in a cosmic struggle It diminishes God and elevates satan to godhood It is an insult to any and all who believe God is supreme
so the Opposer opposes man instead, OK – Thank you – I have been saying this for four years and you have been arguing against me the entire time
Can an elohiym power that is NOT from the Most High, cause fire to fall from heaven? Yes, see 1 Kings Yep the anti-Christ will call fire down from heaven Nature – parlor tricks
Dave" If no one changed your good-angel cherub into your god of evil – how did he change ROb:" Scripture does not explain Dave" What is it that you do believe? It is impossible to tell. You post something – then deny it. Rob" If you can't understand, ask. I do ask – you refuse to answer Who changed you good-angle into your satan the god of evil You preach it – you teach it – but you refuse to answer it
Dave" You go so far as to call Jesus wrong and the NT error - Which is just offensive ROb" there you go again, mocking. Make up stuff. Shall I quote you – you hate when I quote your own words back to you – but I will – if you won’t take ownership of your own views
When are you going to post you Gordon Neimah? Still waiting
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Post by rob on Oct 28, 2023 14:48:02 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Just two points here
You do not accept the idea of only ONE GOD – you teach a pagan pantheon of multiple gods
That is false. I accept one "elohiym-power" in heaven I do not support multiple "elohiym-powers" in heaven,
Do you understand what the term "elohiym" means, and what "el" means? They are not the same meaning.
--------------- OK – Thank you – I have been saying this for four years and you have been arguing against me the entire time
Yep the anti-Christ will call fire down from heaven
Nature – parlor tricks
Sure the Opposer opposes elohiym, is seen by the fact (you agreed to this) that the Opposer brought fire down from heaven to destroy Job's domain, proving the Opposing elohiym power does in fact oppose the true elohiym power.
If elohiym gives all creatures power and some creature use that power to hurt other humans, who are the apple of elohiym's eye, than that creature is opposing the elohiym power that supplies the creature with that power, the creature uses to sin against GOD.
"try to fathom "all is in thy power" tells me GOD grants power to his creatures, even those who oppose Him.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 28, 2023 15:21:21 GMT -5
Just two points here
You do not accept the idea of only ONE GOD – you teach a pagan pantheon of multiple gods That is false. I accept one "elohiym-power" in heaven Then why do to you keep pushing a family of gods
I do not support multiple "elohiym-powers" in heaven, Then why do to you keep pushing a family of gods Why do you teach there are two gods in heaven locked in a cosmic dtruggle over God's right to rule the universe
Do you hear yourself contradicting youreself? --------------
Yesterday Rob - Can the opposer oppose God directly? NO Dave - Correct – there can be NO Great Controversy between two gods locked in a cosmic struggle It diminishes God and elevates satan to godhood It is an insult to any and all who believe God is supreme
so the Opposer opposes man instead, OK – Thank you – I have been saying this for four years and you have been arguing against me the entire time
Today Sure the Opposer opposes elohiym, is seen by the fact (you agreed to this)
Which one is it – make up your mind Were you being honest with us yesterday – and feed us crap today? Or did you feed us a bunch of crap yesterday and are honest today?
You will NEVER find a Jew or a Christian that will bow to your satan as a god?
God is absolute – God made it all for Him – His Plan all along God made the angels and gave them a nature – (yester tov) Know God, Praise God, Serve God and gave them assignments / functions – Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord helping to facilitate God’s Will on earth
God created the BEAST – the archon in all their demonic forms God gave them a nature – (yester ra) self-preservation and the survival of the species (yester ra) = want, hunger, desire, sex, desire, greed, be the alpha
God made man – spirit - the home of (yester tov) Know God, Praise God, Serve God Gen 2:7 – God placed spirit (yester tov) within the animal with (yester ra) Now man is the creature that can choose
This is a very simple theology – it is Jewish – it is Nag Hammadi Gnostic God created the BEAST who procreated the demons – shedim / archon / Jinn – an entire race of demonic beings
They are not gods – they are BEAST – they are obstacle to man
THEY ARE OBSTICLES ASSIGNED TO MAN Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you (the serpent) and the woman—between your seed and her seed …
GOD DIT IT – HIS PLAN – HIS WILL
Your satan do not force god to change – or spoil God’s Plan God used the serpent to set the CONTEST in motion – man vrs world + man vrs archon To make the CONTEST even harder for man- God cursed the earth as Robert loves to point out
AGAIN – GOD DID IT – HIS PLAN – HIS WILL
WHY? – to separate the wheat from the chaft – to seek the truly loyal – to seek the Jobs and the Prodigal Sons of the earth
WHY? – the Plan was always for the earth to pass away – to be born again – to be restored A new Heaven and Earth – or a return to Eden (Jewish) – with only the worthy
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