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Post by Dave on Oct 15, 2023 5:25:37 GMT -5
www.sefaria.org/textsSefaria is home to 3,000 years of Jewish texts. We are a non-profit organization offering free access to texts, translations, and commentaries so that everyone can participate in the ongoing process of studying, interpreting, and creating Torah. Reincarnation - resurrection of the deadOn the Resurrection of the Dead is a 17th-century work by Menasseh ben Israel defending traditional rabbinic views of immortality of the soul, reincarnation, and resurrection, (Resurrection / reincarnation has always been a Jewish teaching - Jesus Christ is the fulfillment)Satan - 940 entriesHasatan and Heavenly RulersHe answers: In order to confuse the Satan, for this double blowing of the shofar demonstrates Israel’s love for the mitzva, and this will confuse Satan when he brings his accusations against Israel...Because Satan was not confused, and he was able to put forward his accusations, so that the Jewish people would be punished....He asked him: And what did Satan the prosecutor say about their sinning? Elijah said to him: Satan, on Yom Kippur, has no license to prosecute. From where is that idea derived?...Three hundred and sixty-four days of the solar year, which is three hundred and sixty-five days long, Satan has license to prosecute....Since that day is exalted above all others, there is no room for the accusations of Satan. הַשָּׂטָן HaSatan - Get Your Shofar ReadyHe is the Satan who seduces people and then accuses them, as it is written: “So the Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with vile sores” (Job 2:7)....Rabbi Yitzḥak says: Satan’s suffering was more difficult than that of Job....Here too, God told the Satan that he could do whatever he liked short of taking Job’s life, and that limitation caused Satan to suffer....Satan said to him: What is the reason that you spoke this way, provoking me by saying: An arrow in the eye of Satan? He replied: But what then should I say?...Satan said to him: Let the Master, i.e., Peleimu, say: Let the Merciful One rebuke the Satan. Universalism(Is actually a Jewish teaching - the idea that in the end all will be saved)Taming The Beast: The Yetzer Ha Ra and the Yetzer HaTovBereshit Rabbah 9:7 (7) Rabbi Nahman said in Rabbi Samuel's name: 'Behold, it was good' refers to the Good Desire; 'And behold, it was very good' refers to the Evil Desire. (It only says 'very good' after man was created with both the good and bad inclinations, in all other cases it only says 'and God saw that it was good') Can then the Evil Desire be very good? That would be extraordinary! But without the Evil Desire, however, no man would build a house, take a wife and beget children; (go forth be fruitful and multiply + subdue the earth, conquor it) and thus said Solomon: 'Again, I considered all labour and all excelling in work, that it is a man's rivalry with his neighbour.' (Ecclesiastes 4:4). (vanity)The yetzer hara is 13 years older than the yetzer hatov. Bar Mitzvah (boys) Bat Mitzvah (girls), or "Son and Daughter of the commandments," signifies that a young man or woman has attained legal adulthood under Jewish Law (google) In Christianity - this is the moment when you accept Christ as your saviour You come under the Law - you enter the covenantWhile still in the mother's womb, the yetzer hara begins to develop in a person. If he begins to violate the Sabbath, nothing stops him. If he commits murder, nothing stops him. If he goes off to another sin, nothing stops him. But 13 years later, the yetzer hatov is born. When he violates the Sabbath, it rebukes him, "Airhead [literally: "empty one"]! Don't you know it says 'Everyone who violates it will surely be put to death' (Exodus 31:14)?" If he is about to commit murder, it rebukes him, "Airhead! Don't you know it says 'Whoever sheds a man's blood, by man will his blood be shed' (Genesis 9:6)?" If he is about to engage in a sexual sin, it rebukes him, "Airhead! Don't you know it says 'Both the adulterer and the adulteress will surely be put to death' (Leviticus 20:10)?" (Avot d'Rabbi Natan 16). animal = [(yester ra) go forth and multiply - self-preservation and the survival of the species]
Man = [animal (yester ra) + the commandment to subdue the world] + [(The knowledge of right and wrong) spirit]This is what seperates man from the animalsMan = [animal (yester ra) want / desire / greed] + [spirit (yester tov) your conscious]
If man lives by [(yester ra) want, desire, greed] - it can lead you to riches, power, and fame - or it can lead you to be a serial killer - whatever you want / desireIf a man listens to (yester tov) ROSH HASHANAH - What is right or wrong becomes - Do I need to Atone? YOM KIPPUR - God does tabernacle with man SUKKOT - PURIM salvation is only by the Lord - PESACH / PASSOVER - The harvest SHAVOUT / PENTECOST
The Jewish Parade marched before the whole world for 2000 years -Jer 1:5 Tell me this is not a Christian message - explain to me why this isn't just GOSPELMat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. Christianity has always been Jewish Theology The only thing Jesus Christ CHANGED = He open the door of Jewish Salvation to the Gentiles and promised the gift of the Comforter / HS Jesus, His Disciples, His followers - the first / origional Messanic Jews - were [Jews + the Messiah] Messanic Jews from Jewish Orthodxy = [Jews + the Messiah] 300 years later - those damn Christ killing Jews are hated by the Catholic Church Being lead by the spirit is labeled as Gnostic Heresy - instead you need a priest, a church, and a pope, and a mandate to tithe your money to the church - AND IF YOU DON'T - Catholic satan will drag you to hellSpring or Fall - either way - Jesus was NOT born on Den 25th When the SUN god died upon the Southern Cross - announced by 3 Kings dead in the ground for 3 days - only to rise again on Dec 25th Dec 25th the birthday of Tammuz - the son of Nimrod and Ishtah - killed by a bore at age 40 Ishtah - who came to earth at the Spring Equanox in an egg - changed a bird into an egg laying rabbit Today - Christmass = Dec 25 Today - Passover is not celibrated - instead we celibrate Easter with ham and Easter eggs Dec 25th is also the birthday of Mithras - preached at 12 - ministry at 30 - died on a tree Whose image was on all Roman Constintine coins And who could forget - MOVING THE SABBATH TO SATURN-DAYMoving the statue of Saturn to the Vatican and calling t St Peter
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Post by Dave on Oct 15, 2023 10:05:18 GMT -5
How serious are you?Here is the academic back doorTHE JEWISH THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY of AMERICAThe Library of JTS is one of the greatest Judaic studies libraries in the world. In addition to its 400,000 circulating volumes, the Library has an exceptional collection of rare materials, including the world’s largest collection of Hebrew manuscripts, 43,000 fragments from the Cairo Genizah, extensive archives, and much more. The Library of JTS serves JTS students and faculty, as well as scholars and researchers around the world. Whatever your position or interest, we are happy to serve you. Facility and students have a passwordScholars and Researchers from around the world – can get a passwordAs I told you before – I would go to a seminary and say – I am Dave Doctor of Theology and a card carrying Minister – and they would let me in Some passwords require a “donation” A day, a week, 30 days, 90days, or a year – what level do you want to “donate” Materials are available by appointment only. To make an appointment and request materials in advance, contact the Librarian in charge of archival materials at: 212.678.8973 or via E-mail: archives@jtsa.edu. I have played this game too – wait a week for something I cannot read – Its in Hebrew or German When you do this online – you need to make the appointment so some one is there to open the document in a page reader – you can see it online – but cannot copy – best you can do is ‘print screen’ The Public Front DoorJewish Theological Seminary - Jewish Virtual Librarywww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org › jewish-theologi... With its main campus in New York City, JTS is currently comprised of a rabbinical school, a cantorial school, a graduate school of Jewish Studies, a graduate ... Didn’t you ask if these guys were really Jewish? I think your just surprise at how Christian real Judaism isIs there a Jewish Seminary – Rabbinic School – in Australia Visit there archives – Library WOW – look at what I just foundRabbinical College of Australia and N.Z.67 Alexandra Street East St. Kilda, VIC 3183 Australia61-3-9525-9165 (Powered by Chabad.org © 1993-2023) This free on-line Library is amazing – all translated into English www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/article_cdo/aid/76131/jewish/Texts-Writings.htmBut – need to figure out how to do a more specific search here Just read - Mastery Over Self A Three-Phase Process of Spiritual Growth: The maamarim entitled Ki Imcha HaSelichah and Ani Ledodi, 5709 by Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn of Lubavitch It says nothing of satan it is about trusting in the Lord Why wasn't little David afraid to face Goliath? - Because he trusted that the Lord would deliver him. Even if Goliath squashed David like a bug - David trusted it would serve God and Israel For David it was a win win opportunity to serve God - whats to fear Questions have answers; answers have no answers Rabbi Ben Tzion ShafierSo the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD? Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture? Robert already has his answer – the opponent opposes God Then he sets out to prove it
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Post by rob on Oct 19, 2023 15:08:23 GMT -5
Greetings Dave I note you had trouble finding Jewish articles on the topics I suggested? Seems to me such studies are rare, and like your Smith PHD thesis, the use of footnotes, I have encountered before, is merely a research game, so the writer can boast about his paper, when in reality, the footnotes say little about the Authors intent at best. I have looked into this sort of thing yes ago when Libaries were at my hands, and I looked up the references the footnotes referred to, only to find they said nothing for the Author. I found this a common problem in my field with research papers in Agriculture, often the Author was just inflating his own results, and bluffing his way through, hoping nobody would check the footnotes and references. I also got a colleague of mine at work, who is a great listener to listen to James Tabor's video for 8 minutes, and he agrees with me, that Tabor presents not what your saying. Why is it people do not speak clearly, is beyond me, or are you inventing things they did not say? I mean if Tabor wanted to say what your saying, he could have started off saying" "God is the God of this world, and through Hebrew eyes the concept of Satan is a mere good angel doing the bad job of prosecuting and accusing humans of their sins. But over the years a huge shift of thinking changed all this. Western Churches today see Satan as an opposer, as a fallen angel and as now the god of this world. How did Satan become the god of this world, when Satan never wan not like this, under the Hebrew concept?" But instead Tabor went through the NT verses simply showing us the verses where Satan is mentioned. He spoke of Jesus coming down to earth into Satan's kingdom, to destroy it , as Tabor says, The kingdom of Satan fell like lightning. If Tabor was looking at a Hebrew view, Satan does not have a kingdom and never had one, so why bother looking up NT verses and reading about the god of this world? If the Satan in the NT refers to another creature such as Satanas, Tabor never speaks of this idea. So again Dave, you are using the video to invent things that Tabor never supports. ------------------------------------------- Now let me answer some of your posts:- Dave" Why would God create a sinning creature? You have asked this of me many times about the archon So now answer your own question"Rob" GOD would never create a sinning creature, nor a creation with RA in it, or entropy or even chaos. All these things are dysfunctional and GOD is always functional. We both agree such RA elements exist in our world, but we do not agree, God created these RA elements because of sinning. You do not acknowledge elohiym powers are already working against GOD when Israel was saved, as Deut 32 tells us about. De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils "shad" , not to God; to gods "elohiym-powers" whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.Do Jews acknowledge the presence of other elohiym powers in the torah of Moses, as clearly shown here? Dave" I am required to do your home work – sorry I already have a lifeRob" I could say the same thing for you, why is it necessary for me to find things to support your view? Clearly my view is easy to understand, as it comes from Scripture only. But your view comes from the traditions and precepts of Jewish men, who are not prophets and not inspired. It makes understanding you near imposible as you cannot gather all the human sources of your view point. I am beginning to think such human sources for Jewish ideas, do not exist, maybe the ideas were oral, or word games that were invented over the thousands of years. ---------Now some studies from links--------------------------------------- Thanks for providing the suggestions as to where Jewish studies might be... I have spent many hours reading the comments.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (1) Some of the Torah Academy of Bergen County students boldly suggest that the role Yonah seeks to play east of Nineveh is eerily reminiscent of the role the Satan. Satan is not a sort of “gadfly angel” or “loose cannon” in the heavens who starts trouble. Rather, Satan plays the role of the “prosecutor general” of the world. Hashem employs angels to play this role in order to make His deliberations comprehensible to us; as Ramban (Iyov 2:3) puts it, the Torah speaks in human language. Satan, under Hashem’s supervision, becomes the representation of Hashem’s strict attitude in decision-making, or what is commonly referred to as Hashem’s Middat HaDin. This explains the surprising fact that Shmuel II 24:1 and Divrei HaYamim I 21:1 use Hashem and Satan interchangeably! Satan is a personification of God’s attribute of judgment, not a mean-spirited angel who manipulates Hashem into harming people. www.sefaria.org/Depths_of_Yonah.4.2.12-13?ven=The_Depths_of_Yonah,_Rabbi_Chaim_&_Binyamin_Jachter._Teaneck,_NJ,_2018&lang=bi Rob" It is interesting to read these statements; " Satan plays the role of the “prosecutor general”" .Where is a Jewish study that accounts for this conclusion? It's easy to make a sweeping comment that becomes a tradition of men, it's another to do a Bible study and come up with this conclusion. So far this statement is unsubstantiated. Rob" SO " angels play roles" ? How can a functional angel who is a mere robot, change to another functional or dysfunctional role, unless GOD re-designs the program inside the angel? For example smart AI machines cannot simple change roles, they have to be programmed and re-trained to adopt to another function. Furthermore it is impossible for an AI machine to process dysfunctional thinking. So how can Jewish comments like " Satan misleads humans" exist if the angels are functional robots? ------------------------------------- (2) What is Satan in the Torah? CT ByChacahm Tzvi The Hebrew Word for “Satan” is three letters ש Shin ט Tet ן Nun ( שטן ). This clearly means Opposer, Accuser and even Destroyer, it can be a noun for a Person or an Angel, and can be a verb. As can be seen from Numbers 22:22, where Elohim sent an Angel in the path of Balak L’Satan Lo ( in this context to oppose / to slaughter him / Be an Adversary to him).www.sefaria.org/sheets/495971?lang=biRob" Here is a brief comment about Shin Tet Nun, that clearly means Opposer, accuser and destroyer? Where are the texts that lend to these opinions? STN is also a verb. Nice we agree. From these comments Tzvi says because the angel said he would kill Baalam if it were not for the donkey, now the word STN also be destroyer? I don't think so, Tzvi is taking the passage out of context, but again the study from Tzvi is so brief and vague, so one can make statements like this and get away with them? --------------------------------- (3) It was taught in a baraita with regard to the methods of the Satan: He descends to this world and misleads a person into sinning. He then ascends to Heaven, levels accusations against that very sinner, and inflames God’s anger against him. He then receives permission to act and takes away the sinner’s soul as punishment. www.sefaria.org/sheets/135376?lang=biRob" Where is this "baraita"? How can a functional angel that is robotic to praise God only, have the intelligence to also be arum, and mislead humans to sin? How can a functional God allow this kind of dysfunctional role to be employed? It's an oxymoron about God's character of love. It's not loving to mislead others. Scripture terms this a false report. It is wounding others and killing them. There are so many things wrong with this passage, where are the Jewish studies on these ideas? --------------------------------------------------- (4) Bava Batra 16a:8 Reish Lakish says: Satan, the evil inclination, and the Angel of Death are one, that is, they are three aspects of the same essence. He is the Satan who seduces people and then accuses them, as it is written: “So the Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with vile sores” (Job 2:7). He is also the evil inclination, as it is written there: “The impulse of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continuously” (Genesis 6:5); and it is written here: “Only upon himself do not put forth your hand” (Job 1:12). The verbal analogy between the various uses of the word “only” teaches that the evil inclination is to be identified with the Satan. He is also the Angel of Death, as it is written: “Only spare his life” (Job 2:6); apparently Job’s life depends upon him, the Satan, and accordingly the Satan must also be the Angel of Death.www.sefaria.org/sheets/135376.7?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enRob" Wow here is a Jewish study that uses verses but is so brief, and makes assumptions based on a simple verse. Is this how we should do a Bible study? No says the torah. a) ( Satan ) is also the evil inclination, as it is written there: “The impulse of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continuously” (Genesis 6:5) Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. This verse is not talking about Satan, but humans. Secondly the term "yetser" means "framework" and "evil" means "RA", so how can Jews put these two words together, when they are not together. The Author takes three ideas out of context from the verse. b) The verbal analogy between the various uses of the word “ only” teaches that the evil inclination is to be identified with the Satan. What is the Hebrew word "only" and how often it is used? The other Hebrew word "yetser" and "ra" are not used in Job, so the Author is making up things. Gen 6:5 says man has a framework in his heart that is evil, so these two Hebrew words are not ONLY identified with Satan, they also are identifed with humans. c) Job’s life depends upon him, the Satan, and accordingly the Satan must also be the Angel of Death
God is the author of life, not Satan. Nor can one say the angel of death is Satan from this verse. --------------------------------------------- (5) So the Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with vile sores from the sole of his foot to his crown” (Job 2:4–7). Rabbi Yitzḥak says: Satan’s suffering was more difficult than that of Job. This can be explained by means of a parable involving a servant whose master said to him: Break the barrel but save its wine. Here too, God told the Satan that he could do whatever he liked short of taking Job’s life, and that limitation caused Satan to suffer.www.sefaria.org/sheets/135376.6?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enYoma 20a:1 “Sin lies in waiting at the door” (Genesis 4:7), and it is no wonder that men sin. He asked him: And what did Satan the prosecutor say about their sinning? Elijah said to him: Satan, on Yom Kippur, has no license to prosecute. From where is that idea derived? Rami bar Ḥama said: The numerological value of the letters that constitute the word HaSatan is three hundred and sixty four: Heh has a value of five, sin has a value of three hundred, tet has a value of nine, and nun has a value of fifty. Three hundred and sixty-four days of the solar year, which is three hundred and sixty-five days long, Satan has license to prosecute. On the remaining day, Yom Kippur, he has no license to prosecute. Since that day is exalted above all others, there is no room for the accusations of Satan. www.sefaria.org/sheets/135376.19?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enRob" Why is Satan as a good angel allowed to accuse humans? as well as prosecute humans for their sinning? on all 364 days, but on the day that really seals our pardon or doom, Yom Kippur, NOT allowed to prosecute the sinners of their sins? The Author is making up stuff, based on letter values? ------------------------------------------------- (6) Satan/The Devil In Christianity Satan and the Devil are synonymous. Satan is the archenemy of God and man, a fallen angel who is out to mislead mankind. According to the Greek Bible Satan is the "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4). The Hebrew word "satan" means "one who opposes/accuser." Satan is an emissary of God and is the prosecuting attorney. The first time Satan appears in Tenakh is Numbers 22:22www.sefaria.org/sheets/138293.27?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en(22) But God was incensed at his going; so an emissary of the LORD placed himself in his way as an adversary. He was riding on his donkey, with his two servants alongside, The Hebrew word מלאך means emissary or messenger. Melachim (angels) are emissaries that are sent by God to perform certain tasks. In the case of Satan, he is sent to entice us to sin and entice us to fall away from God. This can clearly be seen in Sefer Iyyovwww.sefaria.org/sheets/138293.29?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enII Samuel 24:1 (1 ) The anger of the LORD again flared up against Israel; and He incited David against them, saying, “Go and number Israel and Judah.”I Chronicles 21:1 (1) Satan arose against Israel and incited David to number Israel. How do we solve this contradiction? Easy! Satan is the emissary that God sent to entice David to sin. Both are correct. Once again we see that Satan is powerless outside of God.www.sefaria.org/sheets/138293.33?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enRob" So when David wanted to sin, God sent a messenger called Satan, to help David sin. And the word Satan means oppose, so the angel opposes mankind, but never opposes God.Is this how word meanings work? Can a hebrew word mean something for one creature and something else for another divine being? Not in my view. Do Jews understand why GOD sent a messenger angel to function as an Opposer to Baalam on the donkey? I cannot read such comments from Jewish commentaries? For example, God is always functional. David wishes to do something dysfunctional, So God allows the dysfunctional angel to help David sin (ie something dysfunctional). Why is God allowing the other elohiym power to empower David to sin? Because the free will is able to choose which elohiym power it wishes to rule under. Jews seem not to understand there are other elohiym powers in the torah, Deu 32 for instance. A correct view of Deut 32, and the presence of other elohiym power would make a huge difference to Jewish views, but Jews seem not to acknowledge this verse De 32:17. ----------------------------- 4. The Ruach Ra The Ruach Ra, literally evil wind, is discussed extensively throughout tenakh and Halacha. (15) Saul’s courtiers said to him, “An evil spirit of God is terrifying you. (16) Let our lord give the order [and] the courtiers in attendance on you will look for someone who is skilled at playing the lyre; whenever the evil spirit of God comes over you, he will play it and you will feel better.” One of the first things we do when we wake up is to wash our hands and make a beraakha. The source for this is to remove the ruach ra from sleepwww.sefaria.org/sheets/138293.45?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enGloss: And some also say "He Who Formed" (Asher Yatzar), even if he did not relieve himself, and this is our practice (Abudirham). Water that is invalid to use for a meal (below, Chapter 160) is permitted to use for washing one's hands for prayers. However, some say that one should not recite the blessing on this kind of water. (2) One should be careful to wash one's hands three times, in order to remove the foul spirit (i.e. the spiritual effects from sleeping) from them. (3) One should not put his hands in his mouth, ears, eyes, or nose before washing one's hands. (4) Even if one has washed his hands, he should never touch the orifice of his anus, because that could cause haemorrhoids. One should [also] refrain from touching a place where he has been bled, because that could damage the wound. The issue with the ruach ra also has practical halachic ramifications with regards to krashrut
DailyHalacha also rules that it is prohibited to eat peeled onions, eggs, and garlic that were left overnight unless it was combined with other ingredient, dried, or if part of the stalk still remained. ------------ 5. Demons Demons are an entirely different category and are considered separate from the ruakh ra.
Chagigah 16a The Gemara asks: What verse did Rabbi Akiva expound that prevented him from making the same mistake as Aḥer? Rabba bar bar Ḥana said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: It was the following: “And He came [ve’ata] from the holy myriads” (Deuteronomy 33:2), which he explained in this manner: He, God, is unique [ot] among His myriads of angels. Therefore, he knew that he had merely seen an angel. And Rabbi Abbahu said: Rabbi Akiva expounded the verse: “Preeminent above a myriad” (Song of Songs 5:10) to indicate that He is exemplary among His myriad. And Reish Lakish said: He expounded the verse: “The Lord of hosts is His name” (Isaiah 48:2); He is the Master in His host. And Rav Ḥiyya bar Abba said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: He expounded the verses: “But the Lord was not in the wind. And after the wind, an earthquake; the Lord was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake, fire; but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire, a still, small voice,” and it states in that verse: “And behold, the Lord passed by” (I Kings 19:11–12). Rabbi Akiva used this verse in order to recognize the place of His presence and refrain from trespassing there. § The Gemara returns to discussing the heavenly beings. The Sages taught: Six statements were said with regard to demons: In three ways they are like ministering angels, and in three ways they are like humans. The baraita specifies: In three ways they are like ministering angels: They have wings like ministering angels; and they fly from one end of the world to the other like ministering angels; and they know what will be in the future like ministering angels. The Gemara is puzzled by this last statement: Should it enter your mind that they know this? Not even the angels are privy to the future. Rather, they hear from behind the curtain when God reveals something of the future, like ministering angels. And in three ways they are similar to humans: They eat and drink like humans; they multiply like humans; and they die like humans. Six statements were said with regard to humans: In three ways, they are like ministering angels, and in three ways they are like animals. The baraita explains: In three ways they are like ministering angels: They have intelligence like ministering angels; and they walk upright like ministering angels; and they speak in the holy tongue like ministering angels. In three ways humans are like animals: They eat and drink like animals; and they multiply like animals; and they emit excrement like animals. § The mishna taught: Whoever looks at four things, it would have been better for him had he never entered the world: Anyone who reflects upon that which is above the firmament; that which is below the earth; what was before the creation of the world; and what will be after the end of the world. The Gemara asks: Granted, it is prohibited to reflect on what is above, what is below, and what is after. This is fine, since one is examining things that are not part of the world but lie beyond it. But before the creation of the world, what has happened has happened. Why is it prohibited to reflect upon this? The Gemara explains: Rabbi Yoḥanan and Rabbi Elazar both say: This can be demonstrated through a parable with regard to a flesh-and-blood king who said to his servants: Build for me large palaces on a garbage dump. They went and built them for him. Clearly, in that case, the king does not desire that they mention the garbage dump. Here too, God does not want people to concern themselves with the chaos that preceded the world. It is taught in the mishna: Whoever has no concern for the honor of his Maker deserves to have never come to the world. The Gemara asks: What is lack of concern for the honor of one’s Maker? Rabbi Abba said: This is one who looks at a rainbow. Rav Yosef said: This is one who commits a transgression in private. They proceed to clarify their opinions: Looking at a rainbow constitutes an act of disrespect toward the Divine Presence, as it is written: “As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord” (Ezekiel 1:28), and it is a dishonor to God to stare at His likeness. Rav Yosef said: This is one who commits a transgression in private, in accordance with Rabbi Yitzḥak, as Rabbi Yitzḥak said: Whoever commits a transgression in private, it is as though he pushed away the feet of the Divine Presence, as it is stated: “Thus said the Lord: The heavens are My seat, and the earth My footstool” (Isaiah 66:1). If one believes that no one can see what he is doing in private, it is as though he said that God is absent from that place. He is therefore compared to one who attempts to remove God from His footstool. The Gemara raises a difficulty: And is that so? But didn’t Rabbi Ela the Elder say: If a person sees that his inclination is overcoming him, he should go to a place where he is unknown, and wear black, and wrap himself in black, in the manner of mourners, because he should be ashamed of his weakness, and do there what his heart desires, but let him not desecrate the Name of Heaven in public. This shows that sinning in private is sometimes preferable to the public performance of a transgression. The Gemara answers: This is not difficult. This case, where one who commits a transgression in public has no concern for the honor of his Maker, occurs when one is capable of overcoming his inclination and fails to do so. That case, where it is preferable to sin in private, occurs when one is incapable of overcoming his inclination. He is therefore advised to, at the very least, refrain from desecrating God’s name in public. Rabbi Yehuda, son of Rabbi Naḥmani, the disseminator of Reish Lakish, interpreted a verse homiletically: Whoever looks at the following three things, his eyes will grow dim: One who looks at a rainbow, at a Nasi, and at the priests. He explains: At a rainbow, as it is written: “As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about, this was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord” (Ezekiel 1:28). At a Nasi, as it is written: “And you shall put of your splendor upon him” (Numbers 27:20), which indicates that the splendor of the Divine Presence rested upon Moses, who was the Nasi of Israel. The third item, looking at priests, is referring to one who looks at the priests when the Temple is standing, as they would stand on their platform and bless Israel with the ineffable name, at which point the Divine Presence would rest above the joints of their fingers. Apropos this Sage, the Gemara cites another statement of his: Rabbi Yehuda, son of Rabbi Naḥmani, the disseminator of Reish Lakish, interpreted a verse homiletically: What is the meaning of that which is written: “Trust not in a companion, do not put your confidence in an intimate friend” (Micah 7:5)? If the evil inclination says to you: Sin, and the Holy One, Blessed be He, will forgive, do not trust it, since it is stated: “Trust not in a companion [rei’a].” And rei’a is referring to none other than the evil [ra] inclination, as it is stated: “For the inclination of the heart of man is evil [ra]” (Genesis 8:21). And “intimate friend” is referring to none other than the Holy One, Blessed be He, as it is stated: “You are the intimate friend of my youth” (Jeremiah 3:4). Lest you say: Since I am acting in private, who will testify against me? The stones of the house and the beams of the house of each person testify against him, as it is stated: “For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it” (Habakkuk 2:11). And the Sages say: A person’s soul shall itself testify against him, as it is stated: “Guard the doors of your mouth from she who lies in your bosom” (Micah 7:5). What thing lies in a person’s bosom? You must say it is his soul. Rabbi Zerika said: The two ministering angels who accompany him, i.e., each individual, they testify against him, as it is stated: “For He will command his angels over you, to guard you in all your ways” (Psalms 91:11). And the Sages say: A person’s limbs testify against him, as it is stated: “Therefore you are My witnesses, says the Lord, and I am God” (Isaiah 43:12), which indicates that each individual becomes his own witness and testifies against himself on the Day of Judgment. MISHNA: Yosei ben Yo’ezer says not to place one’s hands on offerings before slaughtering them on a Festival because this is considered performing labor with an animal on a Festival. His colleague, Yosef ben Yoḥanan, says to place them; Yehoshua ben Peraḥya says not to place them; Nitai HaArbeli says to place them; Yehuda ben Tabbai says not to place them; Shimon ben Shataḥ says to place them; Shemaya says to place them; Avtalyon says not to place them. Hillel and Menaḥem did not disagree with regard to this issue. Menaḥem departed from his post, and Shammai entered in his stead. Shammai says not to place them; Hillel says to place them. www.sefaria.org/sheets/138293.55?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enRob" What an interesting read, and so nicely written even. The lack of spaces is stressful. The verses quotes are refreshing and interesting Habakkuk 2:11). , Jeremiah 3:4). If an evil inclination comes over us, why don't Jews simply say that "Satan comes over us" as they write Satan is the evil inclination, for God designs Satan to tempt us humans to sin? Not for a moment, can I agree to this idea of Satan, nor GOD designing or allowing an angel to do such a thing? So why do humans sin, why must they go to a private place to do what their hearts desire, ie a private sin? Why don't we call for the prayer promises of God for victory over this temptation? -------------------------- Rob" I note some write that angels see into the future, but suggest they don't? Which is it and how can one write this without torah proof? ------------------------ Eventually, our opponents succeeded in destroying it and the Jewish people were exiled under very adverse conditions. The name of this well reminds you that this is where the source of Satan is to be found. Satan is none other than the spiritual representative of Esau in the celestial regions. Satan’s preoccupation in this world is to always oppose the Jewish people with a display of hatred. www.sefaria.org/sheets/358663.31?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=enRob" Why is GOD allowing an angel to display hatred towards humans, if GOD is a GOD of LOVE? ============end of research========== Rob's summary" I doubt one can find other commentaries on this topic, I went through all the material in this website. It's the power of the electronic world these days, one can research material rapidly if the material is made available. There is a general lack of detail in the material of this topic. The humans do not answer why they wrote their words, they simply publish their words and the traditons become precepts of men, exactly as the torah warns us about. Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: It is so much easier to stick to the torah and the torah only. ===================== www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/article_cdo/aid/109864/jewish/Classic-Texts.htmRob" This is a lovely website, I will have a discovery....thanks. " This is what Job had in mind when he said, "You created wicked people." He didn't mean that G‑d created them to be actually wicked—G‑d forbid. Rather, he meant that G‑d created people who would have thoughts and fantasies just like the deeds of the wicked". www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/1058817/jewish/Chapters-26-28.htmRob: I tried to find in Job, "created" no results" wicked" 38 verses, which one is the Rabbi referring to ? " He didn't mean that G‑d created them to be actually wicked—G‑d forbid" Than why does Dave think GOD intentionally created creatures to be intentionally wicked? I will keep reading some more, thanks for the link. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2023 0:49:30 GMT -5
I also got a colleague of mine at work, who is a great listener to listen to James Tabor's video for 8 minutes, and he agrees with me, that Tabor presents not what your saying. See how disingenuous you are. Tabor never supported your catholic Fallen angel tradition – NOT ONCEWhy is it people do not speak clearly, is beyond me, or are you inventing things they did not say? Why do you have to twist what very one says?
I mean if Tabor wanted to say what your saying, he could have started off saying" "God is the God of creation, - But over the years a huge shift of thinking changed all this. - Western Churches today see Satan as an opposer, as a fallen angel and as now the god of this worldYep – that is what he saidIf Tabor was looking at a Hebrew view, Satan does not have a kingdom and never had one, Correct Robert – you nailed it – Hebrew satan does not have his own kingdomso why bother looking up NT verses and reading about the god of this world? Correct Robert – you nailed it – the two have nothing to do with one another------------------------------------------- Now let me answer some of your posts:- Dave" Why would God create a sinning creature? You have asked this of me many times about the archon So now answer your own question" Rob" GOD would never create a sinning creature, nor a creation with RA in it, or entropy or even chaos. All these things are dysfunctional and GOD is always functional.ROb" No Dave, God knew Eve would sin. He knew Adam would sin. He knew one day free will would get tested by sinning. Billions of years before they were even created. REPEAT - Dave" Why would God create a sinning creature? You have asked this of me many times about the archon So now answer your own question"---------------------------------------------- De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils "shad" , not to God; to gods "elohiym-powers" whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Do Jews acknowledge the presence of other elohiym powers in the torah of Moses, as clearly shown here? ABSOLUTELY – Moses is not talking about Hebrew satan He is talking about other gods – shedim / archon / demons / THE BEAST - satanas - devils---------Now some studies from links--------------------------------------- Thanks for providing the suggestions as to where Jewish studies might be... I have spent many hours reading the comments.... www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/article_cdo/aid/109864/jewish/Classic-Texts.htmRob" This is a lovely website, I will have a discovery....thanks. I note you had trouble finding Jewish articles on the topics I suggested? Seems to me such studies are rare, Are you insulting me or thanking me – so confusing This information has always been freely available to anyone who wanted it. Any serious student would have found it years ago!
Either the internet does not work in Australia – or you are lazy
Truth - you have not ever spent any time looking at what Judeo-Christianity really is You have spent all your effort looking at only Ellen White-ism
Question - Now that you have a glimpse - did you honestly understand Jewish thought? and - have I missrepresented it to you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Satan plays the role of the “prosecutor general” of the world. Satan is a personification of God’s attribute of judgment, not a mean-spirited angel who manipulates Hashem into harming people.
"Satan plays the role of the “prosecutor general”" . Rob" SO "angels play roles"? How can a functional angel who is a mere robot, change to another functional or dysfunctional role, unless GOD re-designs the program inside the angel? Confused – what is your question?You teach that your satan was a good angel that changed his role / functionHebrew satan plays the role of the “prosecutor general” of the world.1- this is not a singular angle – it could be any angel in that role 2- that office – that function – never changes 3- the BEAST was created as the destroyer – that is his role There are many BEAST of all shapes and sizes Quest back at you – What role does the Arch Angel Michael play? What role does the Arch Angel Gabriel play? What role does the Arch Angel Uriel play? When you go to work – what role do you play? When you are home with your children – what role do you play? Why do you think this changes who you are? ------------------------------------- Rob" Where is this "baraita"? How can a functional angel that is robotic to praise God only, have the intelligence to also be arum, and mislead humans to sin? 1- Baraita designates a tradition in the Oral Torah of Rabbinical Judaism that is not incorporated in the Mishnah. Baraita thus refers to teachings "outside" of the six orders of the Mishnah. Wikipedia Either the internet does not work in Australia – or you are lazy2- You ask – how can an angel have intelligence? I ask why you can’t--------------------------------------------------- He is also the evil inclination, as it is written there: “The impulse of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continuously” (Genesis 6:5); and it is written here: “Only upon himself do not put forth your hand” (Job 1:12). The verbal analogy between the various uses of the word “only” teaches that the evil inclination is to be identified with the Satan. He is also the Angel of Death, as it is written: “Only spare his life” (Job 2:6); apparently Job’s life depends upon him, the Satan, and accordingly the Satan must also be the Angel of Death. www.sefaria.org/sheets/135376.7?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.This verse is not talking about Satan, but humans. Correct – (yester ra) – aven – comes from (yester ra)Secondly the term "yetser" means "framework" and "evil" means "RA", so how can Jews put these two words together, when they are not together. The Author takes three ideas out of context from the verse. Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion To the animals – God commanded – go forth be fruitful and multiply To man -God commanded - go forth be fruitful and multiply –subdue /dominion (yester ra) – the instinct for self-preservation and the survival of the species It includes things like want, desire, greed, lust – and a drive to be the alpha(yester ra) to want to be a rabbi – requires a lot of time and effort – not a sinto desire to take singing lessons – to better praise God – is not a sinto hoard food – to feed your children in winter – is not a sinto plow the ground to plant – (want, desire, greed) i s not a sinplowing your neighbors land because of (want, desire, greed) – is a sin sex to father children with your wife is not a sin – to rape your neighbor’s wife – is sin(yester ra) is not aven – or evil – but it can and does lead to sin Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire.Job’s life depends upon him, the Satan, and accordingly the Satan must also be the Angel of Death
God told satan to spare Job’s life This mean nothing could kill Job – not other men, not disease, not accident When God told satan to do his worse – all satan had to do was stand back and watch the world consume Job – but now satan must protect Job from the world – satan is in charge of the death of Job -------------------------------------------- Rob" Why is Satan as a good angel allowed to accuse humans? as well as prosecute humans for their sinning? Jewish belief #2 – God test His people. - Why does God test His people? Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.(Seeking the Jobs of the world - the Prodigal Sons - who endure the contest of Gen 3:15 and choose God of their own Free Will - to flee to the One Who Exist)Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. but on the day that really seals our pardon or doom, Yom Kippur, NOT allowed to prosecute the sinners of their sins? The Author is making up stuff, based on letter values? Why do you doubt God’s ability to forgive and save? Or why do you doubt God’s ability to control your satan------------------------------------------------- 4. The Ruach Ra Rob" What an interesting read, and so nicely written even. The lack of spaces is stressful. The verses quotes are refreshing and interesting Habakkuk 2:11). , Jeremiah 3:4). If an evil inclination comes over us, why don't Jews simply say that "Satan comes over us" as they write Satan is the evil inclination, for God designs Satan to tempt us humans to sin? (yester ra) man does not need a god of evil to be greedy, wanting, lusting, desiring – why must you have another to blameJas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Yes (yester ra) is our opposer – it gets in our way every day We are our own worse enemy
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do; but the evil that I do not want, this I practice. Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I doing it, but sin that dwells in me. Rom 7:21 So I find the principle—that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Torah of God with respect to the inner man, Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts. Rom 7:24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God—it is through Messiah Yeshua our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself serve the Torah of God; but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin.
Rob" Why is GOD allowing an angel to display hatred towards humans, if GOD is a GOD of LOVE? Jewish belief #2 – God test His people. - Why does God test His people? Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. (Seeking the Jobs of the world - the Prodigal Sons - who endure the contest of Gen 3:15 and choose God of their own Free Will - to flee to the One Who Exist)
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. ============end of research========== Rob's summary" It is so much easier to stick to the torah and the torah only.Before or after you rewrite it with your allegories?===================== "This is what Job had in mind when he said, "You created wicked people." He didn't mean that G d created them to be actually wicked—G d forbid. Rather, he meant that G d created people who would have thoughts and fantasies just like the deeds of the wicked".www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/1058817/jewish/Chapters-26-28.htmRob: I tried to find in Job, "created" no results" wicked" 38 verses, which one is the Rabbi referring to ? You do not know your scripturePro 16:4 Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster. Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. God did not create man to be wicked – but God knew there would be plenty of wicked people for Him to USE – to facilitate God’s Will on earth"He didn't mean that G d created them to be actually wicked—G d forbid" I will keep reading some more, thanks for the link.Education is a good thing – read something other than the Ellen White digestSERIOUSLY Take caution - there is two streams of Jewish thought1- Saducees - are law bound - Talmund - Oral Law - no spirit and NO MERCY Man is a filthy rotten nasty unworthy animal that desirves all he gets 2- Pharasees - spiritual - grace - be kind (Korbats) - care for God's people - all of them, even your enemies 1 Kings 6 - Elisha knew, wasn't worried - his servnt couldn't see - spiritual Transported all his enemies back to their homes and served them a banquet Niccodemus of John 3 - chabad.org - Kabbalah As you read consider the words of JesusMat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus was NOT a Catholic – he was a Jewish, so were His disciples, His followers, and the authors of the NTAlso read Σατανᾶς G4567 -vrs- Σαταν G4567 How one Chaldean Loanword Clarifies one of the biggest Paradigm Shifts in Churchology I’ll be submitting it for academic review soon Prof red it for e – you know I canot spel I’ll take comments – but post them here ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/612?page=1&scrollTo=9396
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Post by rob on Oct 20, 2023 6:05:14 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Sabbath Dave posts a ROb previous post" No Dave, God knew Eve would sin. He knew Adam would sin. He knew one day free will would get tested by sinning. Billions of years before they were even created.REPEAT - Dave" Why would God create a sinning creature?You have asked this of me many times about the archonSo now answer your own question" ROB Are you trying to say in your twisted brief mannerism, that if GOD created free will creatures which includes the possibility of them sinning, that GOD actually created sinning creatures? Come on Dave. A Rabbi posted " He didn't mean that G‑d created them to be actually wicked—G‑d forbid" I agree. God does not create sinning creatures, like your archon agents of sin. Dave "ABSOLUTELY – Moses is not talking about Hebrew satan He is talking about other gods – shedim / archon / demons / THE BEAST - satanas - devilsRob" So why do Jews have a good angel who misleads people to sin, than prosecutes those people for those sins, and with God's permission actually becomes their angel of death, who than punishes them with death? WHEN GOD already has agents for misleading people to sin? I don't see your God as a God of love, more vindictive. Do you have any comments from Jews who clearly separate these two into two groups, HaSatan the prosecutor and the demons, the creatures who do harm to humans? PS" this is going to affect your paper too. First prove to me and readers clearly that Jews consider the demons, (satanas) as a second group of elohiym powers, that are the god of this world, and how they came to be the god of this world. Their MUST be a JEWISH commentary somewhere on this.----------------- Dave" Either the internet does not work in Australia – or you are lazy Truth - you have not ever spent any time looking at what Judeo-Christianity really is You have spent all your effort looking at only Ellen White-ismRob" You are funny Dave. I can find any quotation from Ellen White as a prophetess in seconds, as all 700,000 words are all in a database and searched easily.
Not so easy with Jewish material, first you don't have true prophets, you have collections of Rabbi teachings, and not all Rabbi teachings agree with one another. And lastly you don't have them talking enough details on certain topics. -------------- Dave" Question - Now that you have a glimpse - did you honestly understand Jewish thought? and - have I missrepresented it to you?ROB" Dave you have presented Jewish beliefs very well indeed. I have yet though to come across Jews who write about archons and satanas as a different creature in the NT. Can you supply these commentaries also. I find Jewish commentary strange, but some of it is very good and rather nice. Dave" Confused – what is your question?Rob" Sorry. A rabbi writes " Satan misleads people". How is this possible, when the torah says not to lie and make a false report? If you are misleading people, you are actually sinning, are you not? Do you have any Jewish commentaries on this idea? Dave" this is not a singular angel – it could be any angel in that roleRob" I am confused, if the HaSatan means "THE" opposer, or an accuser, than how can that functional role be given to any angel? It violates the word meaning of HaSatan, meaning THE Opposer. Thanks for the meaning of Baraita. I asked about how can functional angels become intelligent enough to mislead people. Such intelligence requires functional angels to also become dysfunctional angels, and thus sin, in order to mislead people. I cannot understand how you can mislead people without sinning yourself. Do you have any Jewish commentaries on this? -------------------------- Dave" When God told satan to do his worse – all satan had to do was stand back and watch the world consume Job – but now satan must protect Job from the world – satan is in charge of the death of JobROb" Wow, very different thinking about Satan, the good angel helping God to mislead people. www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/bible_cdo/aid/16403/showrashi/true(RASHI'S COMMENTARY) and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord: to contend with Him, because the expression of standing refers only to judgment, as it is stated (Isa. 3:13): “The Lord stands to pleadROB" OK well said, good understanding of the torah. So when GOD stands up, he is also judging. Isaiah 5:5 m@suwkah H4881 Job 1:10 suwk H 7753 Jeff Benner J) /J\ (/J\ SWK) ac: Cover co: Booth ab: ?: The booth is a covering. V) /J\ (/J\ SWK) — Hedge: To surround as hedge of protection. [df: KwV] [freq. 3] (vf: Paal) |kjv: hedge, fence| { str: 7753} Nm) /J\ (/J\ SWK) — I. Booth: A dwelling place. [ms: Ko] [df: KV] II. Branch: As used for making booths. [df: KwV] [freq. 5] |kjv: tabernacle, den, pavilion, covert, bough| {str: 5520, 7900} Nf1) )OJ\ ()OJ\ SW-KH) — I. Booth: A dwelling place. [ms: hko] II. Harpoon: As a barbed thorn. [df: hkV] III. Branch: Used for building a booth. [df: hkwV] [freq. 34] |kjv: tabernacle, booth, pavilion, cottage, covert, tent, branch| {str: 5521, 7754, 7905} kf1) )OJ\Q ()OJ\Q M-SWKH) — Hedge: As a wall of thorns. [ms: hkom] [df: hkwVm hkVm] [freq. 4] |kjv: hedge, covering| {str: 4534, 4540, 4881} (RASHI'S COMMENTARY) Made a hedge around him: You protected him like a wall, as in (Isa. 5:5) “I will remove its hedge (משוכתו),” its wall. Every expression of בעד stated in the Hebrew language is only an expression of “opposite and before him,” as in (Lev.16:6), “and he shall effect atonement for himself (וכפר בעדו) ,” he shall wipe away the sin from opposite you and before you (sic), so that the atonement shall be a shield about you. Similarly (Ps. 3:4), “[But You,] O Lord, are a shield about me (בעדי).”ROB I can see H 4881 is related to family of words H7753, but Rashi does not comment also about H7753 is a verb with also H5520 as a noun of the same meaning? But I am happy with Rashi comment, GOD walls the saved and protects humans.
Rashi makes no real comments on Job 1:12. Bother. Rashi on Job 2:6" but preserve his life: that it does not go out. From here the Sages said, “The Adversary’s pain was greater than Job’s. This is analogous to one saying to his friend, ‘Break this barrel but preserve its wine.’” Rashi makes no real comments on Job 2:6. Bother. Dave" When God told satan to do his worse – all satan had to do was stand back and watch the world consume Job – but now satan must protect Job from the world – satan is in charge of the death of JobRob" there is so little on Jewish commentaries on Job 1 and 2, show me any Jewish commentaries that parallel what your saying? I can't find any. ------------- RobPP" Why is Satan as a good angel allowed to accuse humans? as well as prosecute humans for their sinning?Dave" Jewish belief #2 – God test His people. - Why does God test His people? Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.Rob" I respect your opinion Dave, but where is a Jewish source that write along the same lines as you do on this topic? I can't find any. Jewish commentary is very rare indeed, on certain topics. Dave" why do you doubt God’s ability to control your satanROb" If Satan is a functional role applied to any number of good angels asked to mislead people and prosecute people for their sins, there is NO need to control the angels at all, for the angels cannot sin.
1) So how can a sinless angel " mislead people" it is a sin in doing this, because "misleading people" is a sin. A false report. Lying. Speaking against truth. Not edifying God's love. Can Jewish commentaries answer this question? Dave" why must you have another to blame Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire.
Yes (yester ra) is our opposer – it gets in our way every day We are our own worse enemyROB" If man is our own enemy and we all have our own yetser RA in us, why do we have "archon demons" than? Why is it necessary to have good angels "misleading people" than? DO you have any Jewish commentaries answering these questions? ------------- Gen 4:7 Rashi" Is it not so that if you improve: Its explanation is as the Targum renders it [i.e., if you improve your deeds.] at the entrance sin is lying: At the entrance of your grave, your sin is preserved. and to you is it’s longing: [The longing] of sin- i.e., the evil inclination-which constantly longs and lusts to cause you to stumble. but you can rule over it: If you wish, you will overpower it. — [from Sifrei Ekev 45, Kidd. 30b]
Rashi is suggesting only the yetser RA is constantly longs and lusts to cause you to stumble. Rashi does not see "the chataah" as a sinning agent, rather he sees only the Yetser RA as the sinning agent, we humans have already. ---------- Gen 2:1 Rashi" Now the serpent was cunning: What is the connection of this matter here? Scripture should have juxtaposed (below verse 21): “And He made for Adam and for his wife shirts of skin, and He dressed them.” But it teaches you as a result of what plan the serpent thrust himself upon them. He saw them naked and engaging in intercourse before everyone’s eyes, and he desired her. — [from Gen. Rabbah 18:6Eve was NOT naked in the sense Rashi understands, she was clothed with solid colours of light.Do Jews have any commentary on this idea? cunning, more than all: Commensurate with its cunning and its greatness, was its downfall- [it was] cunning, more than all, [and it was] cursed, more than all. — [from Gen. Rabbah 19:1]Do Jews have any commentary on the Hebrew word arum? What does Arum mean? In my view, Arum is a sinful concept, one cannot be arum unless one has first sinned . Do Jews have any commentary on this idea? You will surely not die: He pushed her until she touched it. He said to her, “Just as there is no death in touching, so is there no death in eating” (Gen. Rabbah 19:3)ROB" Wow I once read you quibbed at Mrs White saying something NOT in the torah, but a Rabbi can add things NOT in the torah. So clearly here the serpent is sinning in order to help Eve to begin sinning as well.ROBPP"Rob" Why is GOD allowing an angel to display hatred towards humans, if GOD is a GOD of LOVE?Rob" you did not answer my question with Jewish commentary. Note I understand not all ideas are commented upon, but some must be... please help me find them. If there are no Jewish commentaries on topics, why should one listen to the Rabbi? Surely such commentaries exist, and thus I seek this, to help support Dave's view. Dave" Before or after you rewrite it with your allegories?ROb" I have since discovered Jews write poetry better than I do. They think deeper similes than I do.... often to extreme levels too. ------------------------------------------- I’ll be submitting it for academic review soon Prof red it for e – you know I canot spel I’ll take comments – but post them here ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/612?page=1&scrollTo=9396Rob" I had a quick read, at first glance, seems OK as a paper. I will read your paper more carefully and post comments later. Thanks for the share. PS, make sure you find a Jewish commentary on Satanas and demons as a second group, the other elohiym powers who are the god of this world. It will help your paper and support it. Shalom PS I found this chance discovery , a Jewish story: - www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/article_cdo/aid/610415/jewish/Sly-Arrogance.htmSly Arrogance By Yossy Gordon One of the followers of Rabbi DovBer of Lubavitch (the “Mitteler Rebbe,” 1773–1827) was known for studying and praying with great devotion, and displaying a kind and gentle manner to others. Yet he still had a serious character flaw. He greatly admired his own virtues. Afraid that he was growing arrogant, the chassid decided to approach his rebbe for guidance. After hearing the chassid describe his predicament, Rabbi DovBer was silent for a moment, and then responded: When G‑d created the world, He created both good and evil. After these two elements came into being, they came before G‑d and asked for their respective missions. “Spread the light of goodness and kindness in the world,” G‑d instructed the Good Side. “This is achieved by making people aware of their Creator.” Evil asked, “But will I be able to do my job? Will people really listen to me?” G‑d then instructed the Evil Side to combat the good, thereby giving people the choice and opportunity to overcome adversity. The Evil Side asked, “But will I be able to do my job? Will people really listen to me?” When the Creator responded in the affirmative, the Evil Side asked to be told its name. “You will be called the Serpent,” said the Creator. Upon hearing this, the Serpent became worried. He was afraid that his name alone would frighten people away and doom his mission. “Have no fear,” reassured G‑d, “you will succeed.” Indeed, the Serpent was successful in misleading Eve to sin, convincing her to eat from the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden and to share her sin with Adam. After Adam had eaten from the same fruit, G‑d banished the pair from Eden, and thus began all of life’s challenges. However, when Adam and Eve realized their sin, they repented completely and managed to atone for their folly. Seeing the holiness that now permeated their lives, the Serpent came before the Creator again. “Destroy me,” he implored. “I will never be able to succeed now!” “Have no fear,” responded the Creator. “I will change your name to ‘Angel of Death.’ No one will recognize you.” The Evil Side—disguised as the Angel of Death—did his sinister work for generations, until our grandparents Abraham and Sarah began spreading the knowledge of G‑d in their surroundings. Forlorn, the Angel of Death complained again that his job was too difficult, well-nigh impossible. “Fear not,” said the Creator, “I will change your name again. From now on, you will be known as ‘Satan.’ No one will recognize you.” So, Satan began his career. His work went well, until Moses made his appearance. When he began teaching Torah, Satan was ready to throw in the towel for good. He appeared before the Creator asking for a merciful end; now he truly felt useless. Again, his name was changed. This time, he was renamed “Arrogance.” Again, his name was changed. This time, he was renamed “Arrogance.” Arrogance now began his career. This time, his disguise was so good that he even penetrated houses of Torah learning. The more a true scholar studies, the more he realizes how little he really knows. However, under the influence of Arrogance, people would study and not be humbled by their knowledge. Instead, they assumed airs of superiority and looked down with disdain at the unlearned. Of course, they sugarcoated these feelings by claiming to defend the dignity of their knowledge, not their own person. This continued until Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov arrived in this world. He revealed the true unity of G‑d, before whom all are equal—no matter their level of scholarship. Again the Evil Side came before the Creator, disguised as Arrogance, asking for a merciful end. Again his name was changed. This time, instead of plain Arrogance, it would be known as “Fear of Arrogance.” Being less bold than plain old Arrogance, Fear of Arrogance could do its work in peace. “Now, listen here,” concluded the Mitteler Rebbe. “You should know that Fear of Arrogance is Arrogance, who is Satan, who is the Angel of Death, who is the Serpent himself! Quickly, throw him out of your house, because your life is at risk!”1 Such a story does not help your cause on the serpent as a Satanas being, it only adds confusion to our task or verifying your viewpoint and paper on Satanas as a separate group, and thus elohiym power. Such stories also mock traditional Catholic views of Satan, and the torah verses in Ezekiel 28, which Jews have no commentaries upon?? Shalom
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Post by rob on Oct 20, 2023 14:40:03 GMT -5
Σατανᾶς G4567 -vrs- Σαταν G456 7 (wrong Strong's Number) Cool - see - I read this many times and never read it wrong everytime Both my Books - I gave 5 copies to 5 different people - they all found different thingslinkRob" If this is your Abstract, you are supposed to detail and answer the question, why the loan word was used by translators? Or pose the questionI found a layperson comment, that Greeks who like to name things, wanted to "Name the HaSatan", rather than just leave the Opposer nameless, as the Hebrew word does. So they added a suffix "-as" 1- regardless of not posting your source - I found it anyway and even the author admits he made many errors 2- this papers say - how to know - does it decline? Hebrews do not - Greek words do Quoting your Jeff Brenner Meaning? Unclear? the Hag Hammadi Library since 2010, what threatened Christendom labels the Gnostic Gospels. COOL the Hag Hammadi Library since 2010, THAT threatened-Christendom labels the Gnostic Gospels.ROb" Proof that Messanic Jews support GNostic views ? DO you have proof? where is your reference? The early Christians just wrote - no one called them Gnostic until 1947The early Christians just wrote - no one called them Gnostic until 1947 Roman Christendon didMy focus has been on the 11 texts attributed to, or are consistent with, James, John, Paul, Peter, Philip, and Thomas. I do not offer any of it as inspired scripture, other than, it is an insight to the thinking, understanding, or commentary by he earliest Christians, before the Romanization of the known world. Rob" Well if your selected texts are not inspired, why are you using them? DUH - it is an insight to the thinking, understanding, or commentary by he earliest Christians, before the Romanization of the known world. COnsider these Jewish statements:In the words of our sages, “ No evil descends from heaven”—only two types of good. The first is a “blatant” and obvious good—a good which can be experienced only as such in our lives. The other is also good, for nothing but good can “emerge from the Supernal One”; but it is a “concealed good,” a good that is subject to how we choose to receive and experience it. Because of the free choice granted us, it is in our power to distort these heavenly blessings into curses, to subvert these positive energies into negative forces. www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/parshah/article_cdo/aid/54662/jewish/The-Translation-of-Evil.htmROB" If GOD does not do good and evil, how can GOD who is entirely good devised evil to be in His world? What an oxymoron thing to say? Rabbi Tzvi cannot explain how evil came into the world, except to say it is here. Question - if your fruit tree is infected - do you cut away the infected parts or kjust kill the whole tree? If you cut away a branch - that is "ra that is a concerned good" - for the great good - the life of the tree Why is being tempted a "concerned good"? Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. Jas 1:12 Happy is the one who endures testing, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love Him. Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Jas 1:15 Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death. Mat 3:11 “As for me, I immerse you in water for repentance. But the One coming after me is mightier than I am; I am not worthy to carry His sandals. He will immerse you in the Ruach ha-Kodesh and fire. Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He shall clear His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn; but the chaff He shall burn up with inextinguishable fire.” I n Torah the metaphor for evil is darkness. No more than the absence of truth.I teach this - you disagree - because it does not include your satan god Like darkness, Evil has no power of its own. I teach this - you teach your satan god hs the power to oppose God and change all of God's creationFrom where, then, does it derive the power to cause so much pain in the world? Generally speaking, from us, from our fear of it. That we consider it a "something" worth negotiating.Yes - I agree Child cries every night - Dad there is something outside my window - Dad says, it's nothing go to sleep Next night child cries again - Dad there is something outside my window - Dad says, it's nothing go to sleep Every night for a week - Dad there is something outside my window - Dad says, it's nothing go to sleep Finally, Dad takes the child outside to see the branches of the tress tapping the house in the wind. Child - never worries again Numbers - firery serpents - run them up a flag pole - expose them for what they are - and they loose their power over you Politicians - no new taxes - elect them - put them in office expose them - and no one belives them ever again Jesus Christ - expose Him - run Him up on a Cross - expose Him for who He is I once spent a month peparing for a job - I could answer any question they asked Worried - aganised - really wanted that position - couldn't sleep the night before Once in the interview - I discovered I was the only applicant - no one asked anything except - can I start Monday? In fact, this is the purpose of evil, why a G‑d who is entirely good devised evil to be in His world. Because evil forces us to reach deep inside, to find our inner strength, climbing ever higher, until reaching a brilliant, blinding light — a light that leaves no crevice for darkness to hide.www.rabbinicalcollege.edu.au/library/article_cdo/aid/3217/jewish/How-Do-You-Fight-Evil.htm The purpose of evil - you will find this same thing over and over in Jewish thoughtThe ra helps man to appreiciate the tovIf you read about war - does it make you cry? At war movie - do you cry for the bad guy - or cheer the hero? Kids play a video game - blow it up - shoot it up - does it make them cry Why do vetrans of war - protest against war? Answers - because it still makes them cry - years after seeing it up close Answer - they have been traumatised ------------- I have a close friend - one look into his eyes and you know he seem a thing or two 3 tours Viet Nam - door gunner on a helicopter - shot at many things Been in two helicipters that were shot and never made it back to base Had a buddy - served together two tours (3 years total) Last mission - one stray bullet - hit the door of the helicopter and then his buddy's throat Changed my fried fo ever ------------ Movie - Powder - youtu.be/04qBqCJlbC0?si=BQJ-VqrF9xReOa-H4 min clip - (love this scene)Big time hunter - big reputation - heads mointed all over his home and office - shoot a deer out of season Powder is an albino kid with such a high IQ - no one understands him - think him strange Poweder - put on hand on the dying deer and one hand on the hunter The hunter got to experience death Changed him forever - got rid of all his many guns, stuffer heads, and hunting trophies Can never harm anything again The hunter was just living (yester ra) Experiencing Death - up close and personal - changed him - hello (yester tov) There is good and the greater goodThere is good - God created this world and put you in it - thank you But - the world is a cold harsh place - bad things happen to good people - good? My government could take my children to war and drop a bomb on my house - without ever asking me? Do I think its good? - government says it serves a greater good The Exegesis on the Soul" For the beginning of salvation is repentance. Therefore (cf. Acts 13:24), "Before Christ`s appearance came John, preaching the baptism of repentance."
And repentance takes place in distress and grief. But the father is good and loves humanity, and he hears the soul that calls upon him and sends it the light of salvation. Therefore he said through the spirit to the prophet (cf. 1 Cl 8:3), "Say to the children of my people, 'If your sins extend from earth to heaven, and if they become red like scarlet and blacker than sackcloth, and if you return to me with all your soul and say to me 'my Father!', I will heed you as a holy people.'"All the troubles of the world = good if it teaches you you need to repent Why do you spank your child - serves a greater good repentance and returning to God IS THE GREATER GOOD So we need to question elohiym as a word study, and why Jews do not allow other opposing elohiym powers into their view. WHAT - the OT is filled with other gods - of the Levant, of Egypt, of Chaldea, of India, of GreeceScriture also has OT deamons - some posing as gods
This article is not about them - it is bout satan
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2023 18:47:32 GMT -5
Σατανᾶς G4566 -vrs- Σαταν G4567 Part 2: Theological implicationsWhat is Jewish demonology?jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13523-shedimDemons in the Bible. The demons mentioned in the Bible are of two classes, the "se'irim" and the "shedim." The se'irim ("hairy beings"), to which the Israelites sacrificed in the open fields (Lev. xvii. 7; A. V. "devils"; R. V., incorrectly, "he-goats"), are satyr-like demons, described as dancing in the wilderness (Isa. xiii. 21, xxxiv. 14; compare Maimonides, "Moreh," iii. 46; Vergil's "Eclogues," v. 73, "saltantes satyri"), and are identical with the jinn of the Arabian woods and deserts (see Wellhausen, l.c., and Smith, l.c.). To the same class belongs Azazel, the goat-like demon of the wilderness (Lev. xvi. 10 et seq.), probably the chief of the se'irim, and Lilith (Isa. xxxiv. 14) Abram left the god’s of Sumar behind to enter the Land of Canaan with its 33 other gods mentioned by name within scripture. But first, his children would have to go and face off with the god’s of Egypt. There is even the argument that each Egyptian Plague was designed to crush 10 Egyptian gods. ENCYCLOPEDIA Ten Plagues of Egypt www.worldhistory.org/Ten_Plagues_of_Egypt/Rebecca Denovaby Rebecca Denova published on 18 February 20221Save Hapi- Egyptian God of the Nile This Egyptian God was a water bearer. Egyptian Plague- Water Turned to Blood Heket- Egyptian Goddess of Fertility, Water, Renewal Heket the Egyptian Goddess, had the head of a frog. Egyptian Plague- Frogs coming from the Nile River Geb- Egyptian God of the Earth The Egyptian God Geb, was over the dust of the earth. Egyptian Plague- Lice from the dust of the earth Khepri- Egyptian God of creation, movement of the Sun, rebirth Khepri, the Egyptian god had the head of a fly. Egyptian Plague- Swarms of Flies Hathor-Egyptian Goddess of Love and Protection Usually this Egyptian Goddess was depicted with the head of a cow. Egyptian Plague- Death of Cattle and Livestock Isis- Egyptian Goddess of Medicine and Peace Egyptian Plague- Ashes turned to Boils and Sores Nut- Egyptian Goddess of the Sky Egyptian Plague- Hail rained down in the form of fire Seth- Egyptian God of Storms and Disorder Egyptian Plague- Locusts sent from the sky Ra- The Sun God Egyptian Plague- Three Days of Complete Darkness Pharaoh- The Ultimate Power of Egypt Egyptian Plague- Death of the Firstborn Once liberated from Egypt, they returned to face off against those 33 other gods of the Levant, beginning at Jericho. King Solomon is the source for Jewish demonology. He describes the demons of his day as the sedim H7700. There is even a reference to a female succubus name Lilith and a few weird references to satyrs / goat men. They are not fully biological, but can appear as 3D biology. They can appear as any type of biology, but in mortal form they can be killed, and their spirit remains on earth as the evil spirit of today. (Jub 10) Dead relatives at a séance, shadow men, black dogs, snakes, evil spirits, boogy men are all well within their ability. He also tells us that they can manipulate nature to some extent, rain, wind, storms, and fertility. King Solomon also says, Beelzebub describes himself as the prince of the demons. Beelzebub, himself, also claims to have a son in the Nile and admitted to being fathered by an Arch-Angel, and needed the permission of the angel Uriel to appear. Also described by King Solomon are the 72 Kings of Hell: (..) demons by name that you could easily find in a book of Catholic Demonology. The most interesting of which is Amosdeus, who admits being the last of those that came down to father the Nephilim.
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Post by rob on Oct 21, 2023 2:46:12 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Rob Previously Posted " So we need to question elohiym as a word study, and why Jews do not allow other opposing elohiym powers into their view.
Dave" WHAT - the OT is filled with other gods - of the Levant, of Egypt, of Chaldea, of India, of Greece Scripture also has OT demons - some posing as gods
This article is not about them - it is bout satan
ROB, " Yes I get your point. Jews do have demons and god like figures in their view, but I also note
1) They have no origin of the shedim/devils/false gods/elohiym powers
Where do we go from here? I can't find anything on shedim origin from Jews, and they are persistent with any being opposing God must be controlled by God, and this includes their views of shedim.
I will do some more Jewish reading and get back to you. It might take a while.
In the mean time, try to do some research yourself.
Find Jewish articles that discuss archons and satanas, if that is possible from Jewish accounts?
Find some articles where Jews freely make use of the Gnostic material, and which material they freely use. Is this common to all Jewish groups, of just Hellenized Jews?
I still think reading Gordons word study on elohiym would be helpful to you, as Jews are very strict not allowing any other elohiym except a single Father elohiym. They do not accept the possibility of elohiym's as divine, let alone other opposing elohiym's.
I find Jewish material interesting but hard to do on the topics you are interested in.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 21, 2023 10:58:13 GMT -5
Jewish demonology – no creation story in the Tanak – Why? The OT is the saga of God’s chosen TRIBE on the ground facing all the other tribes of the world. In is saga – the enemy is on the ground – other men and their gods OT scripture says – people sacrifices to daemons called gods OT is the religious manual for God’s chosen TRIBE on the ground OT the Jews had a different mission – Jer 1:5 – 1 nation to all nations of the world Yes – the BEAST was very much alive and well in the OT as the daemons and other gods of the world Yes – Jews struggled with Hebrew satan God’s Law demands perfection (which is impossible) therefore every Jews knows they are not good enough – Hebrew satan is always there reminding them – you are a sinner and you know it If you don’t do your rituals – Hebrew satan reminds you If you act pious – Hebrew satan is there to remind you – you know your acting You have a dirty thought – Hebrew satan is right there reminding you – you know it's wrong, don’t you Hebrew satan is the accuser – prosecutor – all men are sinners – all men deserve the death penalty under God’s Law NT – is a spiritual transition NT – is no longer about nations facing off against their enemies NT – is about you and your spiritual struggle - Eph 6:12 - our real struggle NT – is about you and your conscious – just you and God – on a spiritual level NT – now identifies – a new and different enemy – a spiritual enemy NT – now we face off personally with demons – devils – of the BEAST NT – it is spiritual warfare Yes – the Beast was alive and well in the OT But his story lays with the 99% The BEAST and his archon are the demons and gods of the 99% Abram was called from Ur The gods of Ur – were space aliens from the planet Nebiru – aliens with flying ships These gods had advanced knowledge – did genetic manipulations These gods lived in Temples and were fed by the people – offerings Do I believe this – ABSOLUTELY – and the origin of those space men were the Nephilim of Enoch Aliens are seen – UFOs are seen – people are abducted – cattle are mutilated – people do get signals from aliens? Demons? People have encountered demons – séances have called forth demons Demons have and do manipulate or leaders Yes – I believe it all – every bit of it All of it demons and devils – and satanas – all the BEAST of the NT All through the OT – the BEAST and his archon deceiving the whole world --------------------------------------------------- I took this from jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13523-shedimJewish demonology can at no time be viewed as the outcome of an antecedent Hebrew belief.
Correct – Jewish demonology is not from the Torah – not taught from the Torah
While the nomadic Hebrews had much in common with the Arabian Bedouins in their belief in spirits (see Wellhausen, "Reste Arabischen Heidenthums: Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 1887, iii. 135 et seq.; Smith, "Rel. of Sem." 1889, pp. 112-125, 422 et seq.), Canaanite practice and belief were greatly influenced by ancient Chaldea, whose demonologyis in the main pre-Semitic (see Lenormant, "Chaldean Magic," 1877, pp. 23-38; German transl., 1878, pp. 22-41; Jastrow, "Religion of Babylonia and Assyria," pp. 260 et seq.; Zimmern, in Schrader's "K. A. T." 1902, ii. 458-464). Read this until you get it – 1- the Jews had beliefs in spirits - sure 2- the 1% - lived among the 99% and their demons and gods Demons in the Bible. The demons mentioned in the Bible are of two classes, the "se'irim" and the "shedim." The se'irim ("hairy beings"), to which the Israelites sacrificed in the open fields (Lev. xvii. 7; A. V. "devils"; R. V., incorrectly, "he-goats"), are satyr-like demons, described as dancing in the wilderness (Isa. xiii. 21, xxxiv. 14; compare Maimonides, "Moreh," iii. 46; Vergil's "Eclogues," v. 73, "saltantes satyri"), and are identical with the jinn of the Arabian woods and deserts3- IDENTICAL with the Arab Jinn Who are the Jinn – they are the demons of the Arab world Who are the Jinn – they are the demons of the 99% - non-Hebrew world The Jinn (Chaldean satanas) has always been a full part of the Middle East before Abram was ever call from Ur King Solomon is taught as the wisest man to ever live – gifted to him by God King Solomon uses his new knowledge to rid his kingdom of the shedim / Jinn Even forced the shedim to help with his Temple But exposure to the shedim – is seductive even for him Through the women the shedim used King Solomon to build temple to them King Solomon – the wisest man to ever live died a crazy man The first century authors called them archon NT says – they were made by God for God OT teaching – God makes the tov and the ra Rabbinical demonology has, like the Chaldean, three classes of, demons, though they are scarcely separable one from another. There were the "shedim," the "mazziḳim" (harmers), and the "ruḥin" or "ruḥotra'ot" (evil spirits). Besides these there were "lilin" (night spirits), "ṭelane" (shade, or evening, spirits), "ṭiharire" (midday spirits), and "ẓafrire" (morning spirits), as well as the "demons that bring famine" and "such as cause storm and earthquake" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. xxxii. 24 and Num. vi. 24; Targ. to Cant. iii. 8, iv. 6; Eccl. ii. 5; Ps. xci. 5, 6; compare Ps. lxx. and Is. xxxiv. 14). 1- there are a lot of demons 2- they can manipulate nature famine / storms Occasionally they are called "mal'ake ḥabbalah" (angels of destruction) (Ber. 51a; Ket. 104a; Sanh. 106b). "They surround man on all sides as the earth does the roots of the vine"; "a thousand are on his left, and ten thousand on his right side" (compare Ps. xci. 7); if a man could see them he would lack the strength to face them, though he can see them by casting the ashes of the fetus of a black cat about his eyes, or by sprinkling ashes around his bed he can trace their cock-like footprints in the morning (Ber. 6a). They hover around the house and the field (Gen. R. xx.), particularly in the lower regions of the air (Num. R. xii.; Tan., Mishpaṭim, ed. Vienna, 99a; compare Diogenes Laertius, viii. 32, ix. 7). Their main abode is in the northern part of the earth (Pirḳe R. El. iii., after Jer. i. 14). Their sporting-places are caper-bushes and spearworts, where they dwell in groups of sixty; nut-trees, where they form in groups of nine; shady spots on moonlight nights, especially the roofs of houses, under gutters, or near ruins; cemeteries and privies (there is a special demon of the privy, "shed shel bet ha-kisse"); water, oil, and bread-crums cast on the ground; and they harm persons and things coming near them (Pes. 3b; Ber. 3a, 62b; Shab. 67a; Giṭ. 70a; Ḥul. 105; Sanh. 65b).1- many demons – all types – all around you 2- different demons for different things R. Johanan knew of 300 kinds of shedim living near the town of Shiḥin (Giṭ. 68a). It is dangerous to walk between two palm-trees (Pes. 111a). Demons are particularly hurtful at night. It is unsafe to salute a person in the dark, for he might be a demon (Meg. 3a); to sleep alone in a house, as Lilith may seize one (Shab. 151b); to walk alone in the night or in the morning before cockcrow (Ber. 43a; Yoma 21a; compare Cock); to take water from one whose hands have not been washed in the morning (Ber. 51a). Especially dangerous are the eves of Wednesday and of the Sabbath, for then Agrat bat Maḥlat, "the dancing roof-demon" (Yalḳut Ḥadash, Keshafim, 56), haunts the air with her train of eighteen myriads of messengers of destruction, "every one of whom has the power of doing harm" (Pes. 112b). On those nights one should not drink water except out of white vessels and after having recited Ps. xxix. 3-9 (the verses mentioning seven times "the voice of the Lord") or other magic formulas (Pes. 3a). Another perilous season is midsummer noon from the 17th of Tammuz to the 9th of Ab. Then the demon Keṭeb Meriri reigns from ten in the forenoon to three in the afternoon. He has the head of a calf, with one revolving horn in the middle, and an eye on the breast, and his whole body is covered with scales and hair and eyes; and whosoever sees him, man or beast, falls down and expires (Pes. 3b; Lam. R. i. 3; Midr. Teh. to Ps. xci. 3; Num. R. xii.). Demons assume the shape of men, but have no shadow (Yeb. 122a; Giṭ. 66a; Yoma 75a). Attimes they are black goat-like beings (; Ḳid. 72a); at other times, seven-headed dragons (Ḳid. 29a). "Like angels, they have wings and fly from one end of the world to the other, and know the future; and like men they eat, propagate, and die" (Ḥag. 16b; Ab. R. N. xxxvii.). They cause the faintness of students and the wear and tear of their dress in the schoolhouses and assemblies of the learned (Ber. 6a). But they are not always malign spirits. As they, by virtue of their semi-celestial nature, can overhear the decrees of heaven, they may be consulted by men as to the future; this can be done by means of oil and eggshells; only on Sabbath is this forbidden (Shab. 101a). Hillel and Johanan ben Zakkai understood their talk just as King Solomon did (Mas. Soferim, xvi. 9; B. B. 134a; Suk. 28a; Giṭ. 68b; Ker. 5b; Pesiḳ., ed. Buber, 45b).1- all of this is a collection from the 99% As a Roman Catholic you have been taught all of this is just imaginary myth Some of it is hard for modern man to understand in these terms – with this vocabulary But – there is a theme of truth all through it The other gods of the world are very real and so are their demons Nature of Demons. In the main demons were workers of harm. To them were ascribed the various diseases, particularly such as affect the brain and the inner parts (compare Rhode, "Psyche," 1894, p. 385). Hence there was a constant fear of "Shabriri" (lit. "dazzling glare"), the demon of blindness, who rests on uncovered water at night and strikes those with blindness who drink of it (Pes. 112a; 'Ab. Zarah 12b); "ruaḥ ẓeradah," the spirit of catalepsy, and "ruaḥ ẓelaḥta," also "ruaḥ palga," the spirit of headache (megrim or meningitis ?), hovering on palmtrees (Pes. 111b; Ḥul. 105b; Giṭ. 68b); "ben nefilim," the demon of epilepsy, and "ruaḥ ẓeḥarit," the spirit of nightmare (Bek. 44b; Tosef., Bek. v.3; Schorr, in "He-Ḥaluẓ," 1869, p. 15); "ruaḥ tezazit," the spirit of delirious fever and madness, befalling man and beast (Pesiḳ., Parah, 40a; Yer. Yoma viii. 45b; Yoma 83b; Gen. R. xii.; see Aruch and Dictionaries, s.v. ); "ruaḥ ẓara'at," the spirit of leprosy (Ket. 61b); "ruaḥ ḳardeyaḳos," the spirit of melancholy (καρδιακός; Giṭ. vii. 1, p. 67b; Yer. Giṭ. 48c); "shibbeta," a female demon, bringing croup to persons, especially children, who leave their hands unwashed in the morning (Ḥul. 107b; Ta'an. 20b; Yoma 77b), probably identical with the "bush-asp," the Parsee demon "with long hands," who lulls men to sleep and attacks them ("Vendidad," xviii. 38; "Bundahish," xxviii. 26); "bat ḥorin" (daughter of freedom; possibly a play on "ḥiwar," a euphemistic expression for blindness), a demon bringing a disease of the eye to one who fails to wash his hands after meals (see Brüll's "Jahrb." i. 157); "kuda," a demon of disease which attacks women in childbirth ('Ab. Zarah 29a); "eshshata," the demon of fever, (ib. 28a; Shab. 66b); "ruaḥ zenunim," the spirit of sexual desire (Pes. 111a); "she'iyyah," an ox-like demon dwelling in desolate houses (B. Ḳ. 21a, after Isa. xxiv. 12); and many others mentioned in Rabbinical lore, only part of which has been preserved in Shab. 66 et seq., 109 et seq.: Pes. 109-113; Giṭ. 68-70; Sanh. 67 et seq.; see Brüll, l.c. i. 154 et seq., who refers also to "puta" or "pura," the spirit of forgetfulness, mentioned in Siddur Rab Amram, i. 31b; see also Blau, "Das Altjüdische Zauberwesen," 1898, pp. 71-85. On the demon "ben temalyon" (probably a euphemism for St. Vitus' dance) see Ben Temalion; Exorcism.
These demons were supposed to enter the body and cause the disease while overwhelming ("kefa'o shed," R. H. 28a; Sifre, Debarim, 318) or "seizing" the victim ("aḥazo," Shab. 151b; Yoma 83a, 84a); hence the usual name for "epileptic" is "nikpeh" (Bek. 44b; Yeb. 64b: Ket. 60b; Pes. 112b). The Greek word is δαιμονίζεσΘαι, meaning the condition of being in the power of a demon. To cure such diseases it was necessary to draw out the evil demons by certain incantations and tailsmanic performances, in which the Essenes excelled.
This does sounds Gnostic Demons (archon) associated with disease Possession of an evil spirit leads to mental health problems How much of this is demonic and how much is microbial? Are bacterial demons? NO – but they are the WORLD Josephus, who speaks of demons as "spirits of the wicked which enter into men that are alive and kill them," but which can be driven out by a certain root ("B. J." vii. 6, § 3), witnessed such a performance in the presence of the emperor Vespasian ("Ant." viii. 2, § 5), and ascribed its origin to King Solomon.Possession – Yes very real In the Book of Wisdom, Solomon claims to have received from God power over the demons (Wisdom vii.20). The same power of curing by exorcism such diseases as dumbness, blindness, epilepsy, mania, and fever was exercised by Jesus and his disciples (Matt. viii. 16, ix. 32, xi. 18, xii. 22; Mark i. 25; v. 2 et seq.; vii. 32 et seq.; ix. 17, 27; Luke iv. 33, 39 et seq.; viii. 27; ix. 39; xi. 14; xiii. 11; Acts xvi. 16), as also by their Jewish contemporaries (Acts xix. 13 et seq.). It remained for a long time a practise among the early Christians (see Irenæus, "Hæreses," ii. 4, 32; Origen, "Contra Celsum," iii. 24; Friedländer, l.c. iii. 572, 634).
KING SOLOMON
King and Queen of Demons. The demons were believed to be under the dominion of a king or chief, either Ashmodai (Targ. to Eccl. i. 13; Pes. 110a; Yer. Shek. 49b; Lev. R. v., where is a corruption of ) or, in the older Haggadah, Samael ("the angel of death"), who kills people by his deadly poison ("sain ha-mawet"), and is called "head of the devils" ("rosh saṭanim"; Deut R. xi.; Pirḳe R. El. xiii.). Occasionally a demon is called "saṭan": "Stand not in the way of an ox when coming from the pasture, for Satan dances between his horns" (Pes. 112b; compare B. Ḳ. 21a). The name "mashḥit" ("destroyer," Ex. xii. 23) seems to refer to the head of the demons in the sentence: "When permission is given to the destroyer to do harm, he no longer discriminates between the righteous and the wicked" (Mek., Bo, 11; B. Ḳ. 60a).
The queen of demons is Lilith, pictured with wings and long flowing hair, and called the "mother of Ahriman" ( B. B. 73b; 'Er. 100b; Nid. 24b). "When Adam, doing penance for his sin, separated from Eve for 130 years, he, by impure desire, caused the earth to be filled with demons, or shedim, lilin, and evil spirits" (Gen. R. xx.; 'Er. 18b), and according to Pseudo-Sirach ("Alphabetum Siracidis," ed. Steinschneider, p. 23) it was Lilith, as Adam's concubine, who bore them (compare "Chronicles of Jerahmeel," ed. Gaster. xxiii. 1). Whether identical with Lilith or not, a more familiar personage, as queen of the demons, is Igarat bat Maḥlat (Num. R. xii.; Pes. 112b), with herchariot and her train of eighteen myriads of demons. According to Yalḳuṭ, Ḥadash, Keshafim, 56, she dances at the head of 478 (), and Lilith howls at the head of 480 (= ), companies of demons. The cabalists have as a third queen of the demons and wife of Samael, "Na'amah," the sister of Tubal Cain and the "mother of Ashmodai" (Gen. iv. 27; see Beḥai's commentary, and Yalḳuṭ, Reubeni, ad loc.). Agrat bat Maḥlat seems to be "the mistress of the sorceresses" who communicated magic secrets to Amemar (compare Pes. 110a, 112b). Yoḥane bat Reṭibi, who, according to Soṭah 22a. prevented women by witchcraft from giving birth to their children, seems to be the same mythical person mentioned by Pliny as "Iotape" or "Lotape" in "Historia Naturalis" (xxx. 1, 2), together with Jannes (Jambres) and Moses (see Reinach, "Texte d'Auteurs Grecs et Romains," 1895, p. 282).
Pre-Talmudic Demonology. Upon pre-Talmudic demonology new light has been thrown by the "Testament of Solomon," translated by Conybeare in "Jew. Quart. Rev." (1898, xi. 1-45), a work which, notwithstanding many Christian interpolations, is of ancient Jewish origin and related to the "Book of Healing" ("Sefer Refu'ot") ascribed to King Solomon (see Pes. iv. 9; Josephus, l.c.; Schürer, "Geseh." iii. 300). In this "Testament" it is told that by the help of a magic ring with the seal of Pentalpha, Lilith-like vampires, Beelzebub, and all kinds of demons and unclean spirits were brought before Solomon, to whom they disclosed their secrets and told how they could be mastered (see Solomon, Testament of). It contains incantations against certain diseases, and specifies the task allotted to each of the chief demons in the erection of the Temple. The latter was a favorite theme of the Haggadists (Pesiḳ. R. vi.; Soṭah 48b; Giṭ. 68a). The later Haggadah ascribed to Moses this power to make the demons work at the erection of the Sanctuary (Pesiḳ. R. iv. 6b; Num. R. xii.); and Solomon's "sword against the fear of the spirits at night" (Cant. R. to iii. 8) was transformed into the Magic "sword of Moses" (Pesiḳ. 140a; Pesiḳ. R. 15; Cant. R. iii. 7; Num. R. xi., xii.). Henceforth the magic books of Moses and the "Sword of Moses" (see Dieterich, "Abraxas," 1891, pp. 155,169 et seq.; Gaster, "Sword of Moses," London, 1896) took the place of "Solomon's Testament" in the magic lore of the Jews.
Cosmic Demons. In the main, demonology among the Jews preserved its simple character as a popular belief, the demons being regarded as mischievous, but not as diabolical or as agencies of a power antagonistic to GodThe Nag Hammadi does not read like this It has the creation story for the demons (archon) And it parallels Rev 12 / Gen 1 day 1 There are many Jewish demons – all shapes and sizes Jewish demonology parallels the Jinn of Arabia – of course it does because they are the same demons The Nag Hammadi just calls them all archon The most important comment = In the main, demonology among the Jews preserved its simple character as a popular belief, the demons being regarded as mischievous, but not as diabolical or as agencies of a power antagonistic to God mischievous, but not as diabolical – is a perfect way to describe the Gnostic archon I said baboons in your house – mice in your barn They do want to keep you for their own kingdom – we are already in their kingdom They were here first – then God gave dominion to man – we are the occupiers – Islam says – the Jinn are jealous of man The Nag Hammadi calls them copycats – they try to imitate God Jesus, His disciples, His followers were all Jewish – educated or not – they all had a Jewish Theology and a Jewish Demonology James, John, Paul, Peter, Philip, and Thomas - in the Nag Hammadi wrote about Jewish Theology and Demonology Catholic satan – Ezk 28, Isa 14 – fallen angels was not invented until 300 years after ChristROB, " Yes I get your point. Jews do have demons and god like figures in their view, but I also note 1) They have no origin of the shedim/devils/false gods/elohiym powers I can't find anything on shedim origin from Jews,That is a lie – you are lying to me and to yourself – you already know the answer, you just don’t like itWhen G‑d created the world, He created both good and evil. After these two elements came into being, they came before G‑d and asked for their respective missions. “Spread the light of goodness and kindness in the world,” G‑d instructed the Good Side. “This is achieved by making people aware of their Creator.” G‑d then instructed the Evil Side to combat the good, thereby giving people the choice and opportunity to overcome adversity You already know the answer, you just don’t like itand they are persistent with any being opposing God must be controlled by God, and this includes their views of shedimYep – who can oppose God – NO ONE!Judaism is MONOTHIESTIC – there is no room for another god – especial one you claim is a second creator – created himself – changed other angels – then changed God’s creation - to oppose God’s right to rule the universe Catholic invented nonsenseFind some articles where Jews freely make use of the Gnostic material, and which material they freely use. Is this common to all Jewish groups, of just Hellenized Jews?1- why would there be Jewish commentary about the NT – seems like an ignorant request 2- How much scripture is Gnostic? [/video] - I posted a video here - but have moved it to the next postWas Paul a Gnostic?10 min Where do we go from here?. I understand where you must be right nowIf Ezk 28 is a Catholic myth – then Ellen White is in real trouble If there is only ONE GOD – then Ellen White is in trouble You are under the assumption that everything changed The problem is that it was Rome that changed it- NOT Jesus I want you to stop and seriously consider the words of JesusMat 5:17-18 Jesus said he did not come to change anything Jesus was a Jew – His Disciples and His followers – they all had Jewish Theology / demonology The NT adds (1) our real personal savior (2) and our real enemy I will do some more Jewish reading and get back to you. It might take a while. Don’t run away mad – consider yourself enlightened
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Post by Dave on Oct 21, 2023 13:13:12 GMT -5
You ask- How much scripture is Gnostic?
Was Paul a Gnostic? 10 min
0:12 - Paul wrote 25% of the Christian Canon What is Canon? – I have heard 85% of the NT is Paul – but now we question if he wrote everything traditions says he did
0:34 - Gnostic Sages used Paul – embraced Paul – therefore Paul is Gnostic Truth – Nag Hammadi does not quote Mathew, Mark, or Luke – but quote Corinthians – Ephesians – and John 0:40 - Ever hear of Paulian Christianity - Elane Page calls it Gnostic Christianity 0:50 - The Nag Hammadi contains – ‘The Prayer of Paul’ – ‘The Apocalypse of Paul’ therefore Paul is a Gnostic
1:15 Linking Paul + Gnosticism to Astrology
Daniel used it for his 70 week prophesy Every Christian have astrological stories about the signs in the heavens
1:48 – Gnostic “SECRET KNOWLEDGE” – Baptism of the Holy Spirit Paul never met Jesus in life – PAUL HAD AN EXPERIENCE on the road to Damascus
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
1:50 - Paul baptizes Theudas and Theudas baptizes Paul 2:10 - the secret teachings from Paul – the Deeper Mysteries
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
2:45 - Many argue that Paul was a Gnostic – this is TRUE 2:50 - Letters to Timothy and Titus are fake Not fake – but not written by Paul – as Hebrews is also not written by Paul
The proof – Corinthians, Romans, and Galatians are Paul – Fact They are hard to translate – he writes like a lawyer – he invents his own words – Fact Hebrews – is much easier – simpler language – different phrasing Paul did not write the Book of Hebrews But – this doesn’t mean it didn’t come from Paul’s scribe Doesn’t mean Timothy and Titus didn’t come from Paul’s office – just means Paul didn’t write them
3:45 - Paul used Gnostic words – spirit – gnosis – glory – wisdom
4:12 - Like a Gnostic Paul admit to the baptism of the Holy Spirit 4:18 - secret knowledge that only Paul knew- but cannot tell you Paul was taken into heaven – vision or not – he saw / learned some things If he tried to explain it he could not – no words – so just say – can’t say
Gnostics say image of God – Paul says image of God 4:28 - Paul emphasizes – understand over ritual
5:10 – THE ARIAN CONTROVERSY – was Jesus a man or not?
Some argued – looked like flesh, but not flesh / the likeness of flesh As if Christ materialized in this world and shape shifted to look like a man Other argued – Jesus was a man – and the Spirit came down as a dove when He was baptized As if Jesus was a man – then possessed by the spirit of Christ
Jewish solution – the duality of man – Gen 2:7 Jesus was a man – son of Mary – 100% just like you and me – but the spirit inside was God (animal Jesus) + (spirit God) = Jesus Christ
At the cross – Jesus (animal) dies → tomb / Christ (spirit) → is poured out, let go, released to go and preach to the lost souls of the time of Noah (Gnostic Peter)
5:51 Paul dislikes rituals and ceremonies Yep – NT is a spiritual conversion – has nothing to with the proper ritual or prayer Gnostic Peter wrote a lot about this - believeing in the name of dead man
6:10 this says – Paul dislike of ritual make him anti-Torah 6:20 Paul replaces ritual and law with “SPIRITUAL ILLUMINATION” is in reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
6:30 -720 They make the argument that Providence = the teaching of the Gnostic Demiurge
It is true – there were many different groups – none of them called themselves Gonstic They do not all preach the same – the Dead Sea Scrolls have a “LEADER” it just wasn’t Christ Yes – ancient Gnostic – sound like Robert God could not have made this flawed world – it had to be a different creator Ancient Gnostic say – God made the Demiurge – and it created this flawed world
Gnostic Christianity is Jewish in origin God did it – God is the Demiurge – the craftsman – the artisan – who made a finely tuned reality Jewish – God made the tov and the ra – FOR A PURPOSE 7:58 – 8:15 Pneumatic charisma is something that requires – the laying on of the hands Acts 19:1-7 above – in reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
8:25 – Paul sees the resurrection as a spiritual event Yep – Proof that LIFE LIVES – spirit live on after death – so we better be prepared
8:35 – Paul sees the resurrection as a spirit event that happens now – 2Cor Another argument between you and I – TIME Paul? Hebrews 9:27 – meta means now, immediately, very soon Paul Hebrew 4:11 – Day 7 is still going on – we can enter that day of rest Another argument we have – you demand that Day 7 expired almost 6000 years ago
Solution – TIME is a stupid argument – TIME IS RELATIVE to the viewer – TIME IS NOT LINEAR
8:44 – Paul teaches that there is an inner Christ in all of us 1- Baptism of the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of Christ dwelling with you – God tabernacling in man as the Temple – but it is short lived because man is still an animal So it is better described as being TOUCHED by God 2- Nag Hammadi says – be a Christ – become a Christ Meaning – witness and save others As was Peter a satan
I can be your satan and you can be my Christ It is just an idiom – an expression It is in reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
9:36 – the point of this video – Paul cannot be trusted
Why do the critics of Paul of paul accuse him of being gnostic is in reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit People who do not understand call it secret knowledge
Being led by the spirit is a threat to man-made organized religion ad had to be stamped out This why Rome hated the Gnostic so much How can a government get a nation of spirit filled Christians to go fight a war? – you can’t How can a government get a nation of spirit filled Christians to hate – those damn Japs – or Gooks – or Spicks – Blacks – or Indians – or or or
No outside invader could ever govern the Jews – they already have a King and a Law Rome could not govern the Born Again Christian – so it must be stamped out
What is Gnosticism? It is anything Rome does not like
Is Enoch Gnostic - how about the Book of Jubilees?
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Post by rob on Oct 21, 2023 16:09:16 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" God’s Law demands perfection (which is impossible) therefore every Jews knows they are not good enough – Hebrew satan is always there reminding them – you are a sinner and you know it If you don’t do your rituals – Hebrew satan reminds you If you act pious – Hebrew satan is there to remind you – you know your acting You have a dirty thought – Hebrew satan is right there reminding you – you know it's wrong, don’t you Hebrew satan is the accuser – prosecutor – all men are sinners – all men deserve the death penalty under God’s Law
ROB" 1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. John is speaking very clearly, through faith in Jesus, one is expected to live perfectly in Jesus, and NOT commit sin along with the Devil who also commit sins. Who is this Devil? From Deut 32, it is SHAD. A false elohiym power. Job 20:1 ¶ Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, is speaking of the asps, pethen, as similes of wickedness and sin, that JOB is deserving of punishment for his sinning , hence "Job 20:28 The increase of his house shall depart" Saya Zophar, as a result of the Asp's poison in your heart. (De 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.) GOD does not agree with Zophar's answers, nor does GOD answer Job's complaint, so as Jews say, where is the comforting, moral and good GOD in the story of JOB? Ps 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; Notice the Hebrew term "nachash". How uncanny GOD has two poetry similes and TWO poetry methods to uncover WHOM is the SHAD, in Deut 32. Ps 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. A parallel to treading in Gen 3:15. All names listed here as the same. Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent "saraph" , and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Here the origin of the SHAD is identified, as SARAPH. Now I show you two methods to find the origin of the Shedim as Jews spell the term. ------------- Dave" The demons mentioned in the Bible are of two classes, the "se'irim" and the "shedim." The se'irim ("hairy beings"), to which the Israelites sacrificed in the open fields (Lev. xvii. 7; A. V. "devils"; R. V., incorrectly, "he-goats"), are satyr-like demons, described as dancing in the wilderness (Isa. xiii. 21, xxxiv. 14; compare Maimonides, "Moreh," iii. 46; Vergil's "Eclogues," v. 73, "saltantes satyri") Le 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils <sa`iyr>,
ROB" I see, so the Jews were entangled by the SARAPH creature who was ARUM, the serpent who was once a burning cherub but sinned in heaven, once sat closest to the Father, but was ejected from heaven because of his sin (Ezekiel 28, the verse Jews fail to read and understand, yet they understand poetry at deepest of levels when it suits them?) Dave" King Solomon forced the shedim to help with his TempleROB" I find this idea absurd and false. God would not allow David to built the temple because of his sinning, why would GOD allow the saraph sinning angels to build his temple? Dave" Like angels, they have wings and fly from one end of the world to the otherROB" correct, once saraph sinning angels banished to earth. Dave" Occasionally a demon is called "saṭan": "Stand not in the way of an ox when coming from the pasture, for Satan dances between his horns" (Pes. 112b; compare B. Ḳ. 21a)ROB" Sounds like Jews are confused, is Satan the chief Opposer of GOD or not, the chief of the saraph sinning angels ? Dave" The queen of demons is Lilith, pictured with wings and long flowing hair, and called the "mother of Ahriman" ( B. B. 73b; 'Er. 100b; Nid. 24b). "When Adam, doing penance for his sin, separated from Eve for 130 years, he, by impure desire, caused the earth to be filled with demons, or shedim, lilin, and evil spirits" (Gen. R. xx.; 'Er. 18b)ROB" Wow so SATAN the Opposer has Lilith, the female Opposer as well, and she has sex with Adam for 130 years, causing Adam to add sins unto sins for 130 years of sinning/ BOGUS. My understanding of Adam, he sinned only once, and lived with Eve, who also sinned only once, until they died. Do Jews really think GOD is so weak, that man was so weak, that the demons are so strong, to overcome faith for 130 years? "Resist the saraph sinning angels, and they will flee from you" is a GOD prayer promise, which by faith empowers you simply by saying these words in your heart. God is greater than the opposing elohiym powers of sin. See Duet 32. Dave" or as agencies of a power antagonistic to GodROb" correct. Jews cannot tolerate a power opposing monotheism. So they invent a theology to suit. Dave" mischievous, but not as diabolical – is a perfect way to describe the Gnostic archonROB" THis is also false coming from your idea of saraph sinning angels, they really do wish you harm. Dave" Catholic satan – Ezk 28, Isa 14 – fallen angels was not invented until 300 years after ChristROB" really? And the undiscovered Hebrew doctrine of "aven" is not taken up by either Jews or Catholics, but seen by Ellen White, but take up by SDA people either. The Hebrew doctrines are hidden in the torah awaiting to be discovered. Ellen WHite translates the "Aven" word as "propensities" and this is a good meaning. "Aven" is the genetic propensities inherited in all humans, and is what Jews term the "evil inclination". Jews do not read the tsuwr and cela rock also, TWO rocks in the torah referring to the Father and Son. Oh no we cannot have more than one strong authority in elohiym. And elohiym cannot mean a family power. That is forbidden. As I said studying Gordons word meaning of elohiym, would help you but you do not want to? =================== That is a lie – you are lying to me and to yourself – you already know the answer, you just don’t like it Oct 20, 2023 at 10:05pm rob said: "When G‑d created the world, He created both good and evil. After these two elements came into being, they came before G‑d and asked for their respective missions. “Spread the light of goodness and kindness in the world,” G‑d instructed the Good Side. “This is achieved by making people aware of their Creator.” G‑d then instructed the Evil Side to combat the good, thereby giving people the choice and opportunity to overcome adversity You already know the answer, you just don’t like it===================== ROB: Lucky for me, the SEARCH works OK " Sly Arrogance By Yossy Gordon published "When G‑d created the world, He created both good and evil. After these two elements came into being, they came before G‑d and asked for their respective missions. “Spread the light of goodness and kindness in the world,” G‑d instructed the Good Side. “This is achieved by making people aware of their Creator.” ROB " seriously Dave, misquoting me. That is what a JEW claims to support, NOT me. GOD never created good and evil on the day of creation from humans. The evil RA was already present on earth, long before GOD came there to visit the earth a second time. The darkness there is a simile of sin, from sinning saraph angels banished there. Ejected from heaven. When God approaches earth, it is in darkness (from sin) and says, let their be light, as GOD is light, and creates perfectly a creation over and around this sin problem on earth, as a witness against the sinning saraph creatures. So I do not support Jewish view here on this at all. Dave" Judaism is MONOTHIESTIC – there is no room for another god –ROb" Yes I gather that, there word meaning of elohiym is wrong. I suggest we study Gordon's word meaning of elohiym. Dave" I understand where you must be right now If Ezk 28 is a Catholic myth – then Ellen White is in real trouble If there is only ONE GOD – then Ellen White is in troubleROb" let's study Gordon's word meaning of elohiym, and I will prove to you using Gordon's study that elohiym does not mean a single power come from a single strong authority. No elohiym means a single power source coming from a family of strong authorities, something Jews do not understand. Dave" You are under the assumption that everything changedROb" nothing changed from a second creator? Are you OK? Darkness is the absence of GOD COld is the absence of GOD SIN is the absence of GOD's power living in you. Death is the absence of GOD's power living in you. Mercy is God's temporary power living in you. Rob" PP" I will do some more Jewish reading and get back to you. It might take a while.Dave" Don’t run away mad – consider yourself enlightenedRob" I find their touches "a loss of words" mystic? HMM? If you spent 14 hours a day reading torah? wow. Have to admire the Rabbi, don't you? ================video on Paul Hmm? screens of words.... Show me a single verse Paul wrote that makes his thelogy different to the gospel as the torah overall teaches, from Moses account. One error in Paul's verses is all I need. Paul wrote to Timothy, beware of Gnosis, some have departed from the faith. Dave" Ancient Gnostic say – God made the Demiurge – and it created this flawed worldROb" weird? Dave" Gnostic Christianity is Jewish in originRob" Prove this. Quote Chassid Jews not Hellenized Jews Dave" Another argument we have – you demand that Day 7 expired almost 6000 years agoROb" Hmm? Dave" What is Gnosticism? It is anything Rome does not likeROb" Well Rome invent trinity, and I do not like this term, but Dave uses the term? Rome also invented purgatory, and Jews have a similar view, but the torah does not teach this idea. ===============Rob's research of Jews.... Jewish Commentaries blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-book-of-job-a-widely-misunderstood-book/Jeffrey Radon is a teacher of Jewish studies and the author of the internet site - www.orthopraxjudaism.com - a site devoted to Jewish studies in a democratic spirit. The Book of Job, on the face of it, represents an internal criticism within the Hebrew Bible itself of Biblical theology (according to which God is conceived not only as the Creator of the universe, but as a moral God) in seemingly raising the philosophic problem of theodicy of why a moral God does not prevent evil. The classic formulation of the philosophic problem of evil (theodicy) is: If God is powerful (omnipotent), then God must be able to prevent evil. The classic formulation of the philosophic problem of evil (theodicy) is: If God is powerful (omnipotent), then God must be able to prevent evil. If God is moral (benevolent), then God must be willing to prevent evil. Since evil occurs, then God is either unable or unwilling to prevent evil.ROB" Hmm? since evil occurs, how does GOD deal with free will that chooses not to serve Him? Does He click his fingers and hareg the sinner instantly? Na 1:2 ¶ God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. Na 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? Na 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him. Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. Hence JOB is a poetry story about this theme in Nahum. Na 1:11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor. Jews should read this? Who is this wicked counsellor / prosecutor/ accuser? The Opposer. " In the face of evil, such as that faced by Job, at best only one of these aspects, God’s power (omnipotence) or God’s morality (benevolence), can be maintained. That is, if we acknowledge that evil has indeed occurred to Job (which is denied by Job’s friends in attempting to defend God’s goodness by claiming that Job has committed some sin or wrongdoing justifying his hardship), then the conclusion is necessarily that God is either not omnipotent or not benevolent.
In Biblical terms, this argument is based upon the contradictory aspects of God reflected in two central Biblical terms for God – YHVH and Elohim. The distinction between the two terms YHVH (the name of God usually translated as the Lord) and Elohim (usually translated as God) is a fundamental distinction of the Bible and a key to understanding the Bible and Jewish tradition. The distinction between YHVH and Elohim is reflected in a number of important Biblical sources, in Talmudic sources and in traditional Jewish prayer books and prayers. But, as far as I am aware, the first to speak of the distinction explicitly and to explain it from a philosophic point of view, is Rabbi Yehuda Halevi in the Kuzari (the great philosopher who lived in the 12th century) – and, incidentally, at the beginning of the fourth part of the Kuzari he says something remarkable that precedes modern academic scholarship. He suggests that the term Elohim is not original on our part as Jews, and the term comes from the pagan world – and Rabbi Yehuda Halevi points out that the term is plural as it referred to forces or powers of nature. The great revolution of the Hebrew Bible is reflected in the use of the term YHVH, which signifies that God is a moral God of revelation and redemption as distinct from Elohim, a God of creation and power. In the face of evil, such as that faced by Job, at best only one of these aspects, God’s power (omnipotence) or God’s morality (benevolence), can be maintained. That is, if we acknowledge that evil has indeed occurred to Job (which is denied by Job’s friends in attempting to defend God’s goodness by claiming that Job has committed some sin or wrongdoing justifying his hardship), then the conclusion is necessarily that God is either not omnipotent or not benevolent.
In Biblical terms, this argument is based upon the contradictory aspects of God reflected in two central Biblical terms for God – YHVH and Elohim. The distinction between the two terms YHVH (the name of God usually translated as the Lord) and Elohim (usually translated as God) is a fundamental distinction of the Bible and a key to understanding the Bible and Jewish tradition. The distinction between YHVH and Elohim is reflected in a number of important Biblical sources, in Talmudic sources and in traditional Jewish prayer books and prayers. But, as far as I am aware, the first to speak of the distinction explicitly and to explain it from a philosophic point of view, is Rabbi Yehuda Halevi in the Kuzari (the great philosopher who lived in the 12th century) – and, incidentally, at the beginning of the fourth part of the Kuzari he says something remarkable that precedes modern academic scholarship. He suggests that the term Elohim is not original on our part as Jews, and the term comes from the pagan world – and Rabbi Yehuda Halevi points out that the term is plural as it referred to forces or powers of nature. The great revolution of the Hebrew Bible is reflected in the use of the term YHVH, which signifies that God is a moral God of revelation and redemption as distinct from Elohim, a God of creation and power.ROB" wow, Rabbi fighting over word meanings of elohiym. The word is plural NOT singular, so much for monotheism. How does something plural also be singular? Easy. Take the word "family" it is singular as a power source but plural with its members. " In the surrounding pagan cultures in the ancient, Biblical world, the gods were conceived of as forces or powers of nature that were powerful, but not inherently or necessarily moral – and thus act within nature, and influence human affairs, not as an expression of moral will but as an expression of their power. The gods in the pagan conception can be influenced or appeased by offering sacrifices, or by performing some other ritual practice – and, ritual practice is conceived as the very essence of religion.Rob" Jews avoiding the monotheism account, cannot have any force opposing God. " The Book of Job thus represents an internal criticism within the Hebrew Bible in the sense that it seemingly challenges this revolutionary, Biblical conception that God is ultimately a moral God. The Book of Job does not challenge the conception that God is powerful but that God is moral in that God is unwilling, though able, to prevent the evil that occurs to Job. I want to offer three pieces of evidence, though, that the Book of Job is not concerned with, and actually ignores, such a philosophic problem of theodicy (of why a moral God allows evil). Rob" Jews do not consider the HA Satan as a morally sinning power, GOD was confronted with. Jews support monotheism AND cannot have any force opposing God. " First, the Book of Job is written in the form of a long extended poem, which includes a short prose introduction and conclusion. If the Book of Job truly intended to address the philosophic question of evil, then a poem is very likely the worst possible literary form that could be chosen for such a purpose. Poetry does not lend itself to clarifying abstract, philosophic questions in a systematic and analytic way (the ultimate purpose of philosophy). Rather, poetry, by its metaphorical nature and in allowing for many different interpretations to fit the same text, actually blurs and clouds issues far more than clarifying them.
Second, the very end of the Book of Job is strange. Job has suffered terribly, including the loss of his property and wealth, bodily afflictions and the loss of his children. At the end of the story it is written, “And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job…and the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before” (Job 42, 10). This restoration also includes the giving to Job new children in place of those he lost (42, 13). Anyone who has lost a child will testify that it is not possible to compensate for the loss of the child with the receiving of a new child, or children, in its place. Property and wealth can be restored. One’s health can likewise be restored. But, there can be no restoration regarding the loss of children, for children are irreplaceable. This strange ending indicates that the Book of Job is not attempting to justify or defend God in terms of resolving the question as to why a moral God allows evil, since such a restoration of children can in no way justify God morally. ROB" nice, well written " Third, the answer that God gives Job to Job’s questions and accusations toward the end of the book (Chapter 38) is actually not an answer at all from a philosophic point of view. Job’s friends blame Job himself for his suffering, arguing that he must have committed some sin or wrongdoing to justify such suffering (and in so doing are able to maintain that God is both omnipotent and benevolent). In their view, no evil has occurred to Job because his suffering is justified. They are unwilling to question God and God’s morality, and thus it follows that Job must be to blame in some way for his suffering. However, their position that Job is to blame for his suffering cannot be maintained, as it contradicts what is plainly written in the text itself, and testified to by God that Job is “a perfect and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil” (Job 1, 2 and 1, 8). In the plain meaning of the story then not only is Job’s behavior not worse than others who have not faced such terrible suffering, but his behavior is exemplary. Moreover, Job’s friends are defending God at the expense of Job, and they are criticized by God at the end of the story (42, 7) ROB" nice, well written -------------- www.myjewishlearning.com/article/what-elie-wiesel-taught-me-about-the-book-of-job/They die simply to play a role in Satan’s bet with God that a righteous man will cease being righteous if his piety is not rewarded.ROB" nice, well written, not as Jews would argue, but some Jews do? Job’s friends, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, had advised Job that he must have sinned to deserve such punishment. In doing so, they upheld a typical biblical doctrine, that sin is punished in accordance with the sin. They were clearly purveyors of the doctrines of the Book of Deuteronomy. Yet here God calls them out for upholding orthodox biblical theology, and states that Job — who railed against God — was in fact right. In effect, what God is saying is this: Even if you quote the Bible, you’re wrong. It’s completely subversive, and necessary. Here is what Elie Wiesel wrote: “It is possible that Job kept his faith—and rebelled against it—at the same time. It is possible that, having reached the height of his despair and torment, he achieved something new: he showed us that faith is necessary to rebellion and, also, tha rebellion is possible within faith. There exists a time when the two are intertwined so as to strengthen one another instead of negating one another.” Rob" Hmm? ----------------- www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4387036/jewish/Who-Was-Iyov-Hero-of-the-Book-of-Job.htmMaimonides writes that regardless of which view we embrace, the episode describing Job’s submission to Satan at the opening of his book is a metaphor containing fundamental aspects of the Jewish system of faith.8 Job would not “sin with his lips,”15 says the Talmud, “but in his heart, he did.”16Rob" Not found in the torah, so why speculate? Was Job righteous? He is described as a “sincere, upright and G‑d fearing man who shunned evil”29– qualities that rival those of Abraham.30 Clearly, in relation to the righteousness of ordinary non-Jews of that era, Job is viewed quite favorably, as the Midrash teaches, “There was no one more righteous than Job amongst the nations of the world.”31Rob" Correct. ------------------------ www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/889836/jewish/Maimonides-The-Rambam.htmMaimonides: The Rambam The life and works of Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2612/jewish/The-History-of-Monotheism.htmThe Jewish belief in G‑d is expressed in the first two of the Ten Commandments. The first affirms the truth of His being. The second is the negative complement to the first—the disavowal of idolatry. Idolatry is not necessarily a lack of belief in G‑d; indeed, the Second Commandment begins, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Rather, idolatry also includes any denial of G‑d’s oneness—His absolute singularity, unity and exclusiveness of being.ROB" disavowal of idolatry - typical big word to fob off the idea that an opposing elohiym power exists.... " Maimonides’ source seems to be a variant version of the Midrash that states that he was 40. As many commentaries suggest, there is no contradiction between these accounts—each represents another level of recognition achieved by Abraham. It is not enough to say: “G‑d revealed Himself to us at Sinai and told us that there are no other deities or forces that are partner to His being and His rulership of the universe. So I know that it is so. If He said so, that’s enough for me: the logic of this truth is irrelevant.” No, says Maimonides. The Second Commandment obligates the Jew that his mind, not only his convictions, should negate the possibility of other gods. He must not only accept that this is so, but also comprehend that, rationally, it cannot be otherwise. Every Jew is commanded to develop the recognition of Divine truth attained by Abraham: a recognition so absolute that it can, by the force of reason alone, dispel a universally entrenched doctrine and convince thousands to transform their lives. ROB" so what is Maimonides saying? So a Jew is supposed to negate the idea that other opposing elohiym power exists. I agree, but the fact is othering opposing elohiym powers do exist, but that we should avoid them. Jews do not accept this idea. " On the other hand, a person might take this to the other extreme, and say: “The oneness of G‑d is not a matter of faith, it’s a fact. The nature of reality attests to it—I can prove it to anyone. It is the revelation at Sinai that is irrelevant. Monotheism is a rational truth, supported by irrefutable arguments.” Rob" correct Monotheism refers to the oneness of a single divine family with one source of power, not many sources of independent powers, not as Gnostics say " she left her consort to do some creating on her own".... impossible.... pagan idea. And for this reason alone, Jews should avoid reading Gnostic books. I agree Monotheism is a rational truth, we have a single divine spring from which all life flows. My problem is Jews do not understand elohiym is a word meaning a "family-power flow". The spelling of elohiym has the word "eloah" in it, a divine Father, who flows. A divine Provider also by defintion has to include a divine responder and a divine Son. Hence a divine family. ------------------ www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/890696/jewish/The-Hovering-Spirit.htmThe Talmud looks at the Torah's second verse and says: "Such is the way of creation: first comes darkness, then light."
This statement is the source of the law that night precedes day. That's why Shabbat begins on Friday evening, and all the festivals and special dates of the Jewish calendar are observed for a night and the following day. "First comes darkness, then light." It also expresses a profound truth about every area of our lives: that in everything we do and experience, we begin in the dark. We emerge from the womb to a sun-blessed world; we proceed from ignorance to learning, from barbarism to civilization, from selfishness to altruism, from turmoil to serenity, from challenge to achievement. It is also a source of encouragement and empowerment to us. It tells us that in G‑d's world, things get better. "First comes darkness, then light." Not, G‑d forbid, the other way around.
In fact, philosophers and mystics agree that the only way to have light is to begin with darkness. Either because (as the philosophers explain) without darkness, there's nothing to define the reality and experience of light. Or (as the mystics reveal) because darkness is the stuff out of which light is made. ROB I feel sorry for Jews who are mystics in their torah studies, influenced by the Opposer to think this way. God came to the earth already with sinning saraph angels living already on earth, in darkness, the natural state of SIN. SIN will never arise a second time. Light is the only picture that exists in heaven, not darkness, ever. ------------------ The Midrash looks at the second part of our verse (the part about "the spirit of G‑d hovering above the face of the waters") and explains: "This is the spirit of Moshiach."
Who and what is Moshiach? Maimonides describes him as the one who "will restore the kingdom of David to its glory of old... He will build the Holy Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. In his times, all laws of the Torah will be reinstated." In the eyes of the Jew, the world is not an evil to be defeated and transcended. Nor is it a neutral mass upon which goodness needs to be created and imposed. The goodness and perfection is here, hovering about us, waiting to be anchored and revealed. The spirit of Moshiach is programmed into every molecule of creation; we need only to push the right buttons to unleash it.ROB" weird. the Ruwach is the HS, not Moshiach. ---------------------------- www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/892052/jewish/Trapped-Not-Trapped.htmThe Torah tells us that G‑d "has hardened Pharaoh's heart." Because of this, Pharaoh is unable to respond to the warnings given by Moses, and to the series of plagues, one after the other. G‑d had trapped Pharaoh into a position of defiance, and seemingly there was nothing the Egyptian king could do. He had to follow the course inexorably leading to destruction.
Our Sages comment on this. How is this possible? Surely G‑d grants free will? Is it fair to punish Pharaoh if his refusal to recognize G‑d is forced upon him — by G‑d Himself? One of the most famous explanations of this puzzle is that given by the Maimonides. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart was itself a punishment for his cruel treatment of the Jewish people. When a person does bad he gets trapped into a position from which he cannot escape. This itself is part of the punishment for his crime.1 Chassidic teachings tell us that however deeply a person has sunk, and even if it seems that G‑d has trapped him in his own evil — repentance is always possible. It might be more difficult than usual, even much more difficult, even incredibly difficult — but it is always possible. Trapped? No, not trapped. Anyone, even the ancient Pharaoh, can always break out of the trap and return to G‑d. We are always free.4Rob" well said Chassidic teachings -------------------------------- www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5371076/jewish/Rebbe-Shmuel-Shmelke-of-Nikolsburg-1726-1778.htmRebbe Shmelke opened a yeshivah in Ritshval (Ryczywףł), which he ran for 10 years, with a rigorous1 daily schedule:2
14 hours of Torah study 4 hours for the three daily prayers ½ hour break (during which he taught them Chovot Halevavot) ½ hour for eating 4 hours for sleeping 1 hour for personal needsROB" wow, I spend 4 hours a day watering my garden of tomatoes, fruit trees and corn, with a little hose that takes over 30 seconds to fill a single bucket. I spend my time talking to God as I water in the garden, God's domain is in a Garden, His work He gives to me. ------------------- “ When the yetzer hara (evil inclination) convinces you to stop learning because you are tired, Rebbe Shmelke taught, “shout at it, and strengthen yourself to overcome it. Break your nature, and learn more than you would otherwise!”5 ROB why not simply take with your words and say to HIm empower me with your might? Hosea 14:1-2 Few people can emulate Rebbe Shmelke's humble ways. Indeed, humility is the primary focus of his book, Divrei Shmuel.ROB " nice. -----------------From Messanic Emails I received each week-------- “ So God said to Noah, I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence [hamas] because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.’” (Genesis 6:13)- ROB" email explains the current world events with HAMAS group fighting with ISRAEL. In Hebrew, the name Noach means rest or consolation. It is related to the word for comfort. His father called him Noach believing that he would bring him rest from hard labor over the ground that was cursed because of sin. (Genesis 5:29) ROB" Correct , the ground was cursed because of sin. Perhaps his father also foresaw a greater calling of Noach to bring rest. Because Noach was a righteous man, God instructed him to build the ark to save himself, his family, and the world’s animals from the coming deluge. In that way, those who followed Noah into the ark found rest from God’s judgment.------- The ark seems to foreshadow the protection of the Israelites through the blood of the lamb on the doorpost in Egypt. Like the ark, that blood only guaranteed the physical safety and deliverance from the final plague in Egypt, the death of the firstborn. (Exodus 12:12) It also did not guarantee that those who survived as a result of that blood would make it to the Promised Land. Each person determined their own entry into that Land. Tragically, just as most of the people perished in the flood, the vast majority of the children of Israel also died in the wilderness due to unbelief. Only two men, Caleb and Joshua, who walked with God wholeheartedly, were given the right to enter the Promised Land. Unbelief leads to disobedience that robs us of the rest of God. “And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.” (Hebrews 3:18–19) The faith of Noach is something of a parallel with our own walk with God and entrance to the "New Jerusalem." It is by faith that we inherit the promises, not good deeds, though good deeds and obedience are essential hallmarks of a living faith. After all, Noach did not establish his faith only with words; he demonstrated it with faithful obedience. “But someone will say, ‘You have faith; I have deeds.’ Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.” (James 2:18) Yeshua said that the great hallmark of faith in Him — of having the Torah written inside our he“So God said to Noah, I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence [hamas] because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.’” (Genesis 6:13)arts and minds in the Brit Chadashah (New Covenant) — is love: “By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:35) ROB" Correctly written and points all correct . ------------------------------------ Shalom Dave. PS, have to go to work now, so enjoy your day. Take your time to reply.
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Post by Dave on Oct 21, 2023 23:22:45 GMT -5
Dave" God’s Law demands perfection (which is impossible) therefore every Jews knows they are not good ROB" 1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. What is the point of posting NT Covenant information as if it should apply to the Jews of the Books of Deuteronomy and Numbers?-------------------------------- Who is this Devil? From Deut 32, it is SHAD. A false elohiym power. I agree – they are demons – NOT Hebrew satan---------------------------- Jews say, where is the comforting, moral and good GOD in the story of JOB? Answered / fulfilled in Luke 15:11-32 - The Parable of the Prodigal Son Job was a prodigal Son – no matter what the world threw at Job – Job chose to praise God------------------------------------- Here the origin of the SHAD is identified, as SARAPH. Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent What is your origin? God sent them? Or Moses made them?------------- Dave" or as agencies of a power antagonistic to God ROb" correct. Jews cannot tolerate a power opposing monotheism. So they invent a theology to suit. Correct – the Torah starts with them – the inspired word of God Actually all the truth starts with them----------------------------------------------- Dave" mischievous, but not as diabolical – is a perfect way to describe the Gnostic archon ROB" THis is also false coming from your idea of saraph sinning angels, they really do wish you harm. Nope – the mission of the archon is to keep man sidetracked – busy with the world – anything except the HS --------------------------------- Dave" Catholic satan – Ezk 28, Isa 14 – fallen angels was not invented until 300 years after Christ ROB" really? And the undiscovered Hebrew doctrine of "aven" is not taken up by either Jews or Catholics, but seen by Ellen White, but take up by SDA people either. And you use it to invent another god – a replacement God for YWHY that does it all - the god of ra – that changed all God’s Plan And preach a different religion – of Ellen White’s making A sataninic cult that worship satan as a god=================== ROB, " Yes I get your point. Jews do have demons and god like figures in their view, but I also note 1) They have no origin of the shedim/devils/false gods/elohiym powers I can't find anything on shedim origin from Jews, That is a lie – you are lying to me and to yourself – you already know the answer, you just don’t like it That is a lie – you are lying to me and to yourself – you already know the answer, you just don’t like it When G‑d created the world, He created both good and evil. After these two elements came into being, they came before G‑d and asked for their respective missions. “Spread the light of goodness and kindness in the world,” G‑d instructed the Good Side. “This is achieved by making people aware of their Creator.” G‑d then instructed the Evil Side to combat the good, thereby giving people the choice and opportunity to overcome adversity You already know the answer, you just don’t like it ROB " seriously Dave, misquoting me. That is what a JEW claims to support, NOT me.You said - They have no origin of the shedim/devils/false gods/elohiym powers -I can't find anything on shedim origin from Jews, The Jews say – “When G‑d created the world, He created both good and evil” Your response is – YOU DON’T BELIEVE - you say that alotGOD never created good and evil - now you deny the OT as wellThe evil RA was already present on earth, long before GOD Yep – you have another creatorSo I do not support Jewish view here on this at all. Correct you use another Bible written by Ellen White – they are not the same------------------------- Dave" Judaism is MONOTHIESTIC – there is no room for another god – ROb" Yes I gather that, there word meaning of elohiym is wrong. I suggest we study Gordon's word meaning of elohiym. Yep – that is always your solution – the Jews do not know thir own language or religion
ROb" let's study Gordon's word meaning of elohiym, and I will prove to you using Gordon's study that elohiym does not mean a single power come from a single strong authority. Correct – you deny monotheism and teach a pagan pantheon of gods================ video on Paul Show me a single verse Paul wrote that makes his thelogy different to the gospel as the torah overall teaches, from Moses account. One error in Paul's verses is all I need. Paul and James did not agreewww.thegospelcoalition.org/article/james-really-contradict-paul/#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20best%2Dknown,(James%202%3A24). Does James Really Contradict Paul? - The Gospel Coalition One of the best-known tensions in the Bible is the seeming contradiction between Paul and James. Paul: We're justified by faith, apart from works of the law (Rom. 3:28). James: A person is not justified by faith alone (James 2:24).Sep 24, 2019 Paul teaches faith only – James says works Paul and Peter did not agree(wiki) The incident at Antioch was an Apostolic Age dispute between the apostles Paul and Peter which occurred in the city of Antioch around the middle of the first century.[1] The primary source for the incident is Paul's Epistle to the Galatians 2:11–14 Paul says gentiles do not have to be circumcised Peter says yes they doJames, Mark, and Peter were very Jewish – Messianic Jewish Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles – no dietary lawsIt is not what goes into a man that defiles him – but what comes out Spiritual Christianity is from John, Paul, Peter, Philip, Thomas Paul wrote to Timothy, beware of Gnosis, some have departed from the faith. Paul is not the author – ask any scholarwww.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/First_Epistle_to_TimothyWhile Paul is traditionally recognized as the author of 1Timothy, a more modern view is that the letter was composed many years after Paul's death by a churchman who honored Paul's memory and invoked it to help the emerging church solidify its tradition and authority. The letter serves as a basis for upholding a hierarchical church order and forbidding women to serve as Christian teachers or ministers.I have never been involved in the discussion of Tim and Titus But I have worked with the Greek of Corinthians and Galatians. Paul writes complicated sentences – The author of Hebrews does not ------------------------------ Dave" Ancient Gnostic say – God made the Demiurge – and it created this flawed world ROb" weird?Yes your view sounds very weirdGod could not have made this flawed world – God only makes tov So ancients said God is the Creator of the ALL (everything everywhere) which included the demiurge – the craftsman / artisan – who then made the flawed world God created → demiurge → demirge created this flwed world You say – God tried to make a tov world – but satan took it away from away from God and changed everything – vegetarian sharks
God created only tov → then your satan created himself → and casued God tov world to be flawedJews and I say → God created everything !-------------------------- Dave" Gnostic Christianity is Jewish in origin Rob" Prove this. Quote Chassid Jews not Hellenized Jews I quote James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas You claim they are all Heritics and the NT is not to be trusted===============Rob's research of Jews.... Jewish Commentaries blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-book-of-job-a-widely-misunderstood-book/ The Book of Job, Biblical theology (according to which God is conceived not only as the Creator of the universe, but as a moral God) in seemingly raising the philosophic problem of theodicy of why a moral God does not prevent evil. The classic formulation of the philosophic problem of evil (theodicy) is: If God is powerful (omnipotent), then God must be able to prevent evil. The classic formulation of the philosophic problem of evil (theodicy) is: If God is powerful (omnipotent), then God must be able to prevent evil. If God is moral (benevolent), then God must be willing to prevent evil. Since evil occurs, then God is either unable or unwilling to prevent evil. Yes – what you have just posted is the legacy of Roman Christendom – if God is FEEL GOOD why doesn’t God stop the evil in the world – either He is weak- or does not existJewish answer – God is absolute – that absoluteness comes across very harshly to man God never promised man a paradise God promised man the CONTEST of Gen 3:14-24Be real – get serious – God is the author of the tov and the ra ------------------------------------ ROB" wow, Rabbi fighting over word meanings of elohiym. The word is plural NOT singular, so much for monotheism. The 3 are 1 – sorry for your pagan explanitationin the ancient, Biblical world, the gods were conceived of as forces or powers of nature Yep agreement with Judaism, King Solomon, the archon and the Jinn-------------- Monotheism refers to the oneness of a single divine family with one source of power, not many sources of independent powers, not You are the one that teaches multiple gods – a family of gods - each with independednt powersfamily - Oxford Dictionary a group of one or more parents and their children living together as a unit. A Family is never ONE - a family is always a group ----------------- www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/890696/jewish/The-Hovering-Spirit.htmThe Talmud looks at the Torah's second verse and says: "Such is the way of creation: first comes darkness, then light." ROB I feel sorry for Jews who are mystics in their torah studies, influenced by the Opposer to think this way.
Gen 1:1 Creation Gen 1:2 Darkness Gen 1:3 Light Rev 12:1-2 Creation Rev 12:3-4 The Beast – darkness Rev 12:5 – Christ enters creation Why do you deny scripture – and try to rewrite it?Light is the only picture that exists in heaven, not darkness, ever.Scripture does not say God created heaven then darkness Scripture say God created earth then darkness Why do you deny scripture – and try to rewrite it?------------------ The spirit of Moshiach is programmed into every molecule of creation; we need only to push the right buttons to unleash it. ROB" weird. the Ruwach is the HS, not Moshiach. Moshiach = the Messiah = Christ = God = HS - DUH
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Post by Dillon on Oct 22, 2023 12:45:54 GMT -5
Show me a single verse Paul wrote that makes his thelogy different to the gospel as the torah overall teaches, from Moses account. One error in Paul's verses is all I need.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isa 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. The old testament says that god is the only savior, there is no other.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body. Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Robert says that god and Christ are two different gods. The old testament says that god is the only savior The new testament says Jesus Christ is the only savior. Which one of Robert's gods is god?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Col 1:15 (Christ) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created
Robert says that god and Christ are two different gods. The old testament says god is the creator. The new testament says Jesus Christ is the creator. Which one of Robert's gods is god?
The old testament demands that the faithful perform rituals in open forum. A public display. The old testament has very strict dietary laws. The new testament says, Paul says, no rituals required, no dietary restrictions required. Not only did Paul preach against Torah Law, but he disagreed with James and Peter about it.
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Post by rob on Oct 25, 2023 5:49:26 GMT -5
Greetings Dillon Thanks for your statements. " The old testament demands that the faithful perform rituals. A public display.If your referring to formalism here, I would agree with you. But God requires you to love him and support his love to you, and love has no rules of doing this and do that. Each bird has boundaries of where to fly and where to land, but between these boundaries the bird can freely fly demonstrating it's love to God. In a similar way human have boundaries to use and do love. Dillon" The old testament has very strict dietary laws. Rob" This is not that bad, I would call them principles of health. Originally out diet was fruits and vegetables and grains. Only after sin, was clean meat eating allowed. I prefer to follow the plant based diet, because it has less toxins in the food than animal based food. Dillon" The new testament says, Paul says, no rituals required, no dietary restrictions requiredRob" Hmm? Dillon" Not only did Paul preach against Torah Law, but he disagreed with James and Peter about it. Rob" I have not read that, can you offer me an example please? Quote the torah. Shalom ================================ Greetings Dave Dave" You are the one that teaches multiple gods – a family of gods - each with independent powersROB" I teach no such thing. What word do you mean by " god" in Hebrew? (I read the torah in the torah words, not English word meanings changed by traditions and precepts of men) The "el's" within "elohiym" do not have independent powers. That is a pagan notion, from precepts of men. Gnostic writings for example quote "Pistis left her usual cohort and created...." makes all Gnostic writings false and uninspired. Dave" family - Oxford Dictionary a group of one or more parents and their children living together as a unit. A Family is never ONE - a family is always a groupRob" If you wish to discuss things with me, please use the TORAH and the TORAH only, not traditions and precepts of men. A human dictionary is NOT the torah. In the TORAH a family that is sinless and perfect, is defined as ONE BEING, with many personalities of love. Ge 2:24 ...and they shall be one flesh. Le 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.These two verse clearly define the two as one. Just as provider love and responder love, is not two independent kinds of loving. Provider love requires responder love in order for love to be a complete circuit, and a source for love as a spring. For example electricity does not flow from an anode only, or from a cathode only, but ONLY when the two become one in a defined controlled functional of purpose. Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; This verse says the powers of the elohiym head, come from things we can understand within God's creation. Hence we must look for models we humans can fathom by looking at Nature. This is what Romans 1:20 is telling me to do. ================================ Now I wish to raise points regarding your theories of Jewish thought. Jewish origins of evil 1) For the rabbis of the talmudic period the existence of evil in a world created by a merciful and loving God posed a number of theological problems, which they attempted to solve in a variety of ways. Although these solutions do not add up to a coherent theodicy, www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/good-evilRob" In other simple words, Jewish do NOT have a clear harmonious idea on the Origins of Evil. 2) The rabbis insisted that as good derives from God so, ultimately, does evil. This insistence was intended to discount any implications of duality, the idea of a separate deity from whom evil springs being complete anathema to the rabbis, who even say, "Man should bless God for the evil which occurs in the same way that he blesses Him for the good" (Ber. 33b). Rob" Some Jewish rabbi say evil and good both were designed and created by God for some grand purpose. 3) The same antidualistic motif is contained in the verse, "I am the Lord, there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil" (Isa. 45:6–7). (In the liturgy this is changed to "makes peace and creates all that exists," implying that evil itself is perhaps not a positive phenomenon at all, but mainly the absence of good.) ROB" Correct, evil does not exist. Evil is the movement away from God, but has to be sustained by God for evil to be observable. The reason why evil exists is because free will creatures decide to sin. So SIN is the only true origin for evil. Therefore evil cannot be naturally created by God. 4) Another vexing problem is why there is no just distribution of good and evil to the righteous and wicked respectively. Rob" If Jews saw a false elohiym power as a source of SIN, than this would explain why there is no rational just distribution of good and evil. Hypothesis: From this sentence, Jewish would not support Shedim as a false elohiym power that sins by choosing free will to do evil. 5) " evil is blamed on Satan and various malicious demons who are at the root of the trouble caused to the righteous (Ber. 6a; Gen. R. 84:3). Rob" So some Jewish Rabbi do see evil coming from a sinning Opposer of God. 6) Maimonides also views evil as a nonexistence, namely the absence of good, which could not have been produced by God. He distinguishes between three different kinds of evil. The first category is that of natural evils which befall man, such as landslides, earthquakes, and floods, or his having been born with certain deformities. The cause of this type of evil is the fact that man has a body which is subject to corruption and destruction. This is in accordance with natural law and is necessary for the continuance and permanence of the species. The second kind of evil is within the social realm, such as wars. This type of evil, Maimonides says, occurs infrequently and, of course, being wholly within the control of man, could not have been caused by God. Though difficult, its remedy is within the hands of man. The third class of evil, the largest and most frequent class, is the evil which the individual brings upon himself through his vices and excessive desires. Again the remedy is within man's power. Maimonides rejects the notion of "afflictions of love," holding instead that even the minutest pain is a punishment for some previous transgression. He explains that the tests mentioned in the Bible, such as God's request to Abraham to offer up his son, have a didactic purpose, to teach the truth of God's commandments and how far one must go in obeying them. ROB" In other words Jewish Rabbi Maimonides does not support the idea that God created good and evil, but that God created good only. ==================== www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367866/jewish/Why-Did-G-d-Create-Evil.htmWhy Did G-d Create Evil? By Lazer Gurkow He could have made a perfect world with people who emulate their Creator perfectly. But such people would have been a poor emulation of G‑d. They would not have been inherently good; their goodness would have been bestowed from Above. It would have been a borrowed perfection.
Thus G‑d created a world in which goodness and evil are equal options, and He created humanity with the freedom to choose. Our penchant for goodness is not greater than our proclivity for evil; we are evenly balanced. If we want to embrace goodness we must make a choice, and choices reflect who we are. We are not forced into goodness by powers beyond ourselves. We are moved by our choice, by an inner conviction that goodness is right.
Our sages taught that G‑d desired a dwelling place in the lower realm. In spiritual terms, that which perceives itself as closer to G‑d is higher, that which sees itself further from G‑d is lower. The lowest realm is where G‑d is completely unknown and unseen. Where G‑d is absent, as it were, evil exists.ROB" So God created free will choice and placed mankind on a level of existence where both good and evil can be manifested, through choice alone. G‑d thus created evil. Not so that humanity would choose it, but so that humanity could choose it. Could, but hopefully wouldn't. ROB" No mention of why God created shedim. Why was it necessary for shedim to tempt mankind to choose evil? Why not allow free will to choose all by itself? Such questions Jews do not answer in the article of thought. ================== www.wondriumdaily.com/rabbinic-judaism-the-view-of-good-evil-in-the-jewish-tradition/Jewish people view good and evil differently than Christians. It is rooted in the idea that the behavior of good or evil is anchored in basic human impulses existing essentially from the creation.
For Christ to have been so good, something must have been awful (that he came to remedy). The Jewish conception of these two impulses suggests an entirely different picture of how humans are organized and what motivations and struggles they’re dealing with internally. ROB" If good and bad is designed in the DNA, than it's no longer a choice of freedom. In order for free will to work at all, the choice must be a choice, and the power of that choice flows from outside to inside. It cannot be placed already inside, because one could not choose freely. The flow of power from God to the creature through such a choice is the basis of faith. "The yetzer ha-tov, the good impulse, is basically ‘conscience’; it’s an inner sense that alerts the person when he/she is considering violating God’s law. It warns the person, and it develops around age 12–13 when the young Jewish boy or girl first begins to become an adult. ROB" Why can't the HS be the voice of the conscience for right doing? In contrast to the yetzer ha-tov, the yetzer ha-ra—‘the evil impulse’—is a far more murky concept. It doesn’t emerge when the person is 12–13, and it’s part of human nature. Genesis, for example, says: “The yetzer of the human heart is ra from youth”, “The impulse of the human heart is bad from youth” (Genesis 8:21). Rob" This verse comes after SIN came upon humans, and does not consider the sinless design of Adam before he sinned. ==================== Now Dave I wish you to respond to these Jewish statements. Please show me Jewish quotes that clearly show that Jews consider GOD creating both good and evil. I find they do not see things like that. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 25, 2023 8:00:30 GMT -5
"The old testament demands that the faithful perform rituals. A public display. But God requires you to love him and support his love to you, and love has no rules of doing this and do that. Yes – that is the NT teaching – NOT doing the right prayers or eating the right food or even attending a building full of pagan ChristiansDillon" The old testament has very strict dietary laws. Rob" This is not that bad, I would call them principles of health. In the Torah it was LAW – not a health suggestionDillon" The new testament says, Paul says, no rituals required, no dietary restrictions required Rob" Hmm? Dave – totally agree – locked in a prison cell and fed only pork – a Jew is still a sinless Jew 10,000 miles away from the Temple – how does a Jew worship / sacrifice - KorbatsDillon" Not only did Paul preach against Torah Law, but he disagreed with James and Peter about it. Rob" I have not read that, can you offer me an example please? Quote the torah. Paul, James, and Peter are not in the TorahYes – your knowledge of the NT and the history of Judeo=-Christianity is sorely lackingAlready answered your question – James, Mark, and Peter taught Messianic Judaism – Torah Laws intact Mark NEVER speaks of a virgin birth or of the Resurrection, or that Jesus was God Paul and John – introduced spiritual Christianity – Torah laws replaced Paul calls James and Peter – the so called pillars of the faith Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Gal 2:9 Realizing the favor that had been given to me, Jacob and Peter and John—who are the recognized pillars—shook hands in partnership with Barnabas and me, so that we would go to the Gentiles and they to the Jews. Gal 2:9 and having known the grace that was given to me, James, and Cephas, and John, who were esteemed to be pillars, Gal 2:9 and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, I know you have a hard time understanding EnglishBut is not being respectful – NOT even polite - James, Peter, and John are to so called pillars of the faith Did Paul listen to them – NO – Paul got His revelation directly from Christ in heaven – 2Cor 12 Paul was a Born Again Christian – face to face communion – swept up – he got all his teaching directly from ChristRobert teaches this is IMPOSSIBLE - no such thing as spirit or Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or communion spirit to Spirit - Robert say it is all satanic = he even prays against the spirit thinking God will approve=========================== Dave" You are the one that teaches multiple gods – a family of gods - each with independent powers Dave" family - Oxford Dictionary a group of one or more parents and their children living together as a unit. A Family is never ONE - a family is always a group Rob" If you wish to discuss things with me, please use the TORAH and the TORAH only, not traditions and precepts of men. A human dictionary is NOT the torah. STOP PLAYING WORD GAMES – there is only ONE GODNo man can see God the Father But man can experience the Glory of God – HS – the Left Hand And man can see the image of God – Christ – the Right Hand Any other teaching than monotheism is totally rejected!A child can make music - Guitar or piano - the left hand is doing something different that the right hand - AT THE SAME TIME God is greater than a human child He can stand before you as a man - while his spirit plays your heart strings - and never even leaves His thrown in heaven. Any attempt to make God small or limited is rejectedONLY ONE GOD - and he is ABSOLUTE!================================ Jewish origins of evil 1) For the rabbis of the talmudic period … do not add up to a coherent theodicy, Who cares what the Talmud says? Joseph Smith says satan and Christ are twin brothers – why do you support this teaching? Or am I quoting a completely different religion? – They are Christian – so it must be the same for you. ------------------------------------ 2) The rabbis insisted that as good derives from God so, ultimately, does evil. God made good and really good – God made the good and the greater good The ra from God serves the greater good
This insistence was intended to discount any implications of duality, the idea of a separate deity from whom evil springs being complete anathema to the rabbis, who even say, Yep – ONY ONE GOD – no room for a god of evil------------------------------------ Rob" Some Jewish rabbi say evil and good both were designed and created by God for some grand purpose. You have introduced this idea to me – but I get it – don’t you?What is the good? – beautiful creation and the opportunity for life to experience it Experiencing the world comes with risk – bad choices – selfish choices – sin What is the greater good? – The Prodigal Son returning to God What is the greater good? – the New Heaven and Earth without ra God created the tov and the ra and gave man choice - to serve the greater goodYou have introduced this idea to me – but I get it – don’t you?3) The same antidualistic motif is contained in the verse, "I am the Lord, there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil" (Isa. 45:6–7). (In the liturgy this is changed to "makes peace and creates all that exists," implying that evil itself is perhaps not a positive phenomenon at all, but mainly the absence of good.) ROB" Correct, evil does not exist. Evil is the movement away from God, DUH – In the beginning was the Word – step 1 – the Word was with God – distance Dun – the first step in creation = expansion away from the initial source = ra Gen 1:1 creation – first step – choshek (movement away from God) but has to be sustained by God The HS is the matrix / ether of reality – the base E that sustains the ALL at the sub-atomic holographic levelThe reason why evil exists is because free will creatures decide to sin. Why do you actively teach against the NT?Rom 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 4:15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 5) "evil is blamed on Satan and various malicious demons who are at the root of the trouble caused to the righteous (Ber. 6a; Gen. R. 84:3). Rob" So some Jewish Rabbi do see evil coming from a sinning Opposer of God. NOPE – read it again – where does this say anything about opposing God?6) Maimonides also views evil as a nonexistence, namely the absence of good, which could not have been produced by God. I agree – entropy of thought – sin results from forgetting what you already know – right and wrongHe distinguishes between three different kinds of evil. The first category is that of natural evils which befall man, such as landslides, earthquakes, and floods, or his having been born with certain deformities. Correct – NATURE – in nature shit happens in the worldRobert insist – if your child is born deformed – it is because your father sinned Robert insist – if an earthquake swallows you – it is the result of your sin Robert insist – if a meteor falls from space and kills you – it means you were a sinner But Robert cannot answer why bad thigs happen to good people? Robert teaches if anything bad happens - its because satan possessed somebody The cause of this type of evil is the fact that man has a body which is subject to corruption and destruction. This is in accordance with natural law and is necessary for the continuance and permanence of the species. NATURE – this is how God created us – NOT as your god of evil changed usThe second kind of evil is within the social realm, such as wars. This type of evil, Maimonides says, occurs infrequently and, of course, being wholly within the control of man, could not have been caused by God. Though difficult, its remedy is within the hands of man. Yep – satan speaks to only one man – and Russia invades UkraineRobert insist that the Ukrainians deserve it – Grandmothers killed - young girls raped – men beheaded Or Robert wants us to believe that all Russians and all Ukrainians are possessed by his satan god The third class of evil, the largest and most frequent class, is the evil which the individual brings upon himself through his vices and excessive desires. YESTER RA!He explains that the tests mentioned in the Bible, such as God's request to Abraham to offer up his son, have a didactic purpose, to teach the truth of God's commandments and how far one must go in obeying them. Yep – TESTS – God tests his people – Jewish teaching #2ROB" In other words Jewish Rabbi Maimonides does not support the idea that God created good and evil, but that God created good only. Yep – the good and the greater good==================== www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367866/jewish/Why-Did-G-d-Create-Evil.htmHe could have made a perfect world with people who emulate their Creator perfectly. But such people would have been a poor emulation of G‑d. They would not have been inherently good; their goodness would have been bestowed from Above. It would have been a borrowed perfection. Yep - ROBOTSThus G‑d created a world in which goodness and evil are equal options Yep – God did it – tov and the ra – a functional natureand He created humanity with the freedom to choose. Yep – man is the creature that can choose Our penchant for goodness is not greater than our proclivity for evil; we are evenly balanced. If we want to embrace goodness we must make a choice, and choices reflect who we are. We are not forced into goodness by powers beyond ourselves. We are moved by our choice, by an inner conviction that goodness is right. Man = tov and ra in equal measureMan = (yester tov) + (yester ra) in equal measure Man = spirit the home of (yester tov) + animal the home of (yester ra) Man = the creature that can chooseOur sages taught that G‑d desired a dwelling place in the lower realm. In spiritual terms, that which perceives itself as closer to G‑d is higher, that which sees itself further from G‑d is lower. The lowest realm is where G‑d is completely unknown and unseen. Where G‑d is absent, as it were, evil exists. ROB" So God created free will choice and placed mankind on a level of existence where both good and evil can be manifested, through choice alone.Yep and the choice = Light (knowing the Truth) – Darkness (IGNORANCE of the truth)G‑d thus created evil. Not so that humanity would choose it, but so that humanity could choose it. Could, but hopefully wouldn't. Yep – knowledge of tov and ra – so we actually understand the choices we make The opposite of being robots
ROB" No mention of why God created shedim. Why was it necessary for shedim to tempt mankind to choose evil? Shedim / archon = the WORLD – the world is their domain Man’s choice is always – God or the world NATURE – this is how God created us – NOT as your god of evil changed usWhy not allow free will to choose all by itself? Choose what – in a tov only creation – what is man’s Free Will choice? – only tovWithout a world of tov and ra - Eve has no choice - Adam has no choice We have had the argument The gun never appeared in Eve's hand until AFTER she pulled the trigger Eve had no choice - until she made a choice - then the options of choces appeared Your lodgic belongs in a room full of the mentally unstable Such questions Jews do not answer in the article of thought. It was the point of the article – please learn to read English================== www.wondriumdaily.com/rabbinic-judaism-the-view-of-good-evil-in-the-jewish-tradition/Jewish people view good and evil differently than Christians. Yes – Catholics invented Catholic satan and now Ellen White teaches ZoroastrianismIt is rooted in the idea that the behavior of good or evil is anchored in basic human impulses existing essentially from the creation. Yep – (yester tov) spiritual –vrs- (yester ra) corporealGod created - HEAVEN invisible ethereal incorruptable spiritual tov - and earth visible physical corruptable corporeal comes with raROB" If good and bad is designed in the DNA, than it's no longer a choice of freedom. But you teach that your satan rewrote the DNA of all biology after Adam sinned Please make up your mind"The yetzer ha-tov, the good impulse, is basically ‘conscience’; it’s an inner sense that alerts the person when he/she is considering violating God’s law. It warns the person, and it develops around age 12–13 when the young Jewish boy or girl first begins to become an adult. ROB" Why can't the HS be the voice of the conscience for right doing?Correct – you want to teach that the HS drives us around like robots – there is no man inside – just an animal driven around by the HS. When man chooses to sin – it is the HS that is sinning Jews and Christian believe in the inner man – spirit Conscious – do not confuse it with intellect, intelligence, education I would rather say – sub-conscious – even more buried withinWe are all born with the knowledge of God (tov) – but as animals we forget (entropy) So we live our lives by (yester ra) – but deep inside (yester tov) is convicting us of our wrong choices In contrast to the yetzer ha-tov, the yetzer ha-ra—‘the evil impulse’—is a far more murky concept. It doesn’t emerge when the person is 12–13, and it’s part of human nature. Genesis, for example, says: “The yetzer of the human heart is ra from youth”, “The impulse of the human heart is bad from youth” (Genesis 8:21). Rob" This verse comes after SIN came upon humans, and does not consider the sinless design of Adam before he sinned.Nope – just NATURE – that is who we are – the creature that can choose ==================== Now Dave I wish you to respond to these Jewish statements. – easy – all my beliefs Enjoyable for a changePlease show me Jewish quotes that clearly show that Jews consider GOD creating both good and evil. What is wrong with Isa 45:7? – I created the tov and the ra – I do all these things because I am God What about – if it exist God made it What about made by God for God What about everything was made for his pleasure I find they do not see things like that. You are blind Ether you are completely unable to read English without seeing satan in every word Or you are just unable to read English Or you are just unwilling to hear what is said because all you can hear and see is Ellen White and her satan PSI have finished my second draft - made changes per your suggestions Please look it over - read it - it really is who I am It looks long - but 1/2 of it is just presented data - so it is a quick skim
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