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Post by Dave on Oct 7, 2023 10:41:43 GMT -5
"But it is important to add that offering a sacrifice was not a work that earned salvation. As noted above, the Old Testament believers were saved by grace (God’s unearned favour) through faith, just as we are. Offering the sacrifice was an outward demonstration of inward faith in God’s promise. Without faith, the sacrifice was just an empty ritual–in fact, it was an abomination to God (cf. Isa. 1:10- " wordwisebiblestudies.com/old-testament-salvation-salvation-before-the-cross/ Summary: the answer is NO.So – you deny that we are saved by GRACE Are you making this up – or is this really an Ellen White teaching?----------------------------------- Hypothesis: Was there any judging, or judgement in the salvation atonement process? If you stop to consider – do I need to atone (Yom Kippur) Is not a judgment? What force makes you think you need atonement?----------------------------------- Dave" Zec 3 is the example of the prosecutor Joshua has died – facing judgment Hebrew satan is there to accuse Joshua of his sin (because Joshua is a man – a sinner) Rob" Where does Zec 3 say Joshua died? It doesn't. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/zechariah-4Zec 3, the only vision in the Hebrew Bible in which a historical character appears, takes place in heaven, where a court is in session. The accused is the high priest Joshua and the prosecutor is the Satan (Heb. Ha-satan); a title, not yet a proper name). God rebukes the Satan: "Joshua is a brand saved out of fire" and is not to be harmed. Court room setting - In heaven------------ Several things in this passage, Joshua is alive, dressed as a sinning human, and the Lord saves this sinner as a firebrand plucked from the fire. Dave sees this as a divine pardon, after Joshua died. This idea is bogus. Yes – Joshua is alive – LIFE LIVES So – now you deny that God can pardon you for living a life of sin------------------------------- I find it difficult to find any Jewish articles on Bible materials and commentaries, such a task is not easy. Keep looking in Catholic sources – maybe you should look harder in Catholic sources – to find Jewish thoughts
Why don’t you look in Mormon archives Try a chemistry handbook – maybe Jewish thoughts are in there You whine because you are lazy - studentI direct you to Jewish thought - and you just deny it as heresyDave" Never has there been a debate within hermanutics about Zec 3 ROb" Show me any Jewish commentaries on Zec 3. explainingthebook.com/2019/01/27/zechariah-3-commentary-verses-1-5/Zechariah 3 Commentary: Satan And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. And that’s where our fifth and last character is introduced in this verse. And he’s identified as “Satan.” His activity is solely to “resist” or to “accuse” Joshua – true to his nature of being the “accuser of the brethren” as he’s called in the book of Revelation.
Zechariah 3 Commentary: Heavenly Courtroom And there’s no human courtroom involved here. This is a heavenly visionary court. And here we are – thanks to Zechariah, receiving a glimpse into the proceedings.www.shalomdfw.org/jews-view/zechariah-minor-prophet-with-a-major-message/#sthash.PyPnFUvU.dpbsThe fourth vision (3:1-10), the first of the two messianic “centerpiece visions” in the series, communicates the trial of the High Priest, Joshua, who represents the Jewish people before the Lord. This vision demonstrates that, although the people are unclean and thereby unworthy to worship the Lord, as a sovereign act of elective grace He will make His people clean and bless them. The vision opens with Satan, the angelic adversary, before the Lord in the Temple Courts15 standing ready to condemn Joshua, the High Priest, because of the filthiness16 of His clothing. While the accusation would have been true that the ritual impurity of Joshua’s clothing would disqualify him from serving as High Priest, the Lord Himself rebukes the accuser and provides clean, royal robes for Joshua to wear. Joshua, as the representative of the Jewish people, specifically of the remnant now laboring in Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple, is declared worthy of the Lord by a sovereign declaration of His grace. The Jewish people and their leaders could be fully confident that the Lord would accept their worship. and you will say - The Jews never unserstood their own theology, scripture, culture, or language
----------------------------------- Dave" the word means oppose / accuse It is the context that determines how it is applied ROb" Good. Now show me that JOB or ZEC 3 is about a prosecutor, when the passagesMr Serious – why do you misrepresent others Quote me saying that Hebrew satan is a prosecutor in the story of JobYou just invent stuff – so you can ague with yourself It is deceitful – Mr Honest and we all know who the real deceiver is -------------------------------------------- Dave" he opposes you for being a sinner ROb" What a joke ! So an angel opposes the human because he is sinning? How does an angel even know the human is sinning? Sin begins in the mind, where no actions have NOT begun as yet. Correct – in your Ellen White theory – angels must be stupid -------------------------- If GOD is love, why would God have an angel opposing the sinning human, -------------- Dave" the Prodigal Son - that has lived in the muck - is the one that undestands compassion Rob" Off topic Dave. NOPE – perfectly on topic Why does God test His chosen Answer – to seek the truly faithful – the Prodigal Son Why does God test His chosen To separate the wheat form the chaff – to seek the truly faithful – the Prodigal Son--------------------------- Salvation cannot be just about saving humans from their mistakes of sin. NOPE – salvation is all about belief – are you a believer or NOTWhy can't God just forgive, and welcome them back freely, Every Christian believes this to be true – why don’t you? Every Christian trust this to be true – why don’t you? Al that is required is to believe in your heart and confessbut the salvation process is much more complex than this. NOPE – SIMPLE - believe in your heart and confess (Jer 1:5)As soon as Adam sinned, blood was required to atone Adam. Why? Because God Commandment said – eat and you will die – blood is requiredThe cycle of Life – birth – grow to maturity – death (blood) = new life Written in nature for all to see – but you teach this message is satanic – nature is the way it is because of your satanA mischief maker made permanent changes of mischief to Eve as soon as she sinned, Correct – you teach that your satan god is the second creator The penalty for this was life for life. ie: blood. Just a moment ago – you said you didn’t understand this“As soon as Adam sinned, blood was required to atone Adam. Why?” More of Robert’s consistencyand why this conversation goes nowhere Mr Flip Flop ----------------------------- Grace (God's kindness) overlooks the sins of the sinner and saves them as sinless. Just a moment ago you said “the Old Testament believers were saved by grace (God’s unearned favour) - Summary: the answer is NO.”Which is it Robert?------------------------------------- Why does the Opposer oppose humans than Dave?Because he was created to devour / consume Because this is world is the kingdom of the BEAST – yet God gave man dominion it Because that is how God made him/themCol 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. By Him for HimRev 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, For You created all things, and because of Your will they existed and were created!” ------------------------------- Dave" All men are sinners – no man deserves salvation – it is Hebrew satan’s job to keep the sinner out of heaven ROb" OK. to keep a sinner out of heaven, is the same thing as saying to keep the sinner sinning. DO you agree with this idea? NO – do the archon "CARE" if you sin – who knows?Their mission is to keep you occupied – busy with world – focused upon world Moses was a righteous dude But the people whined about being thirsty For one moment – Moses listed to them instead of God For one moment – the WORLD took his attention off of obedience to God Did your satan force Moses to sin? No – it was the consistent NOISE coming from the people – the world ----------------------------------------- Dave" The only way for man to enter heaven is with the Divine Pardon ROb" Does this happen while alive, or after you die?Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, Why do you deny the NT?--------------- Dave sent me a link I posted the link along with my original post – but you couldn’t see it I guessNamely, the satan is to keep a lookout for potential wrongdoing by patrolling the earth. Prosecutor Therefore, what we have in Job is an angel that is obedient to God, whose role as the satan is unpleasant, but they are not the Satan of the NT.
Obedient to God doing a dirty jobThe Satan of the NT assails humanity as an independent agent.
Correct – NT satanas is a new and different creature – NOT Hebrew satan the court-like proceedings in Zechariah 3 only bring us into the narrative as the verdict is being rendered
Court room – in heavenAfter all, it was the Serpent that called God a liar God said if you eat of it you will die – guaranteed – is this true? The serpent said – if you eat of it – it is NOT guaranteed that you will die without any hope of redemption Who told Eve the truth?God said the truth – just not the whole truth and the serpent told the truth It was a deception----- The fact that the Bible does not tell us about the origin of the NTSatan, or even what this figure is, will probably shock believers. Rob " The author is using traditions of men, not really studying the topic at all, but rather quoting traditions of men.The underlined points indicate views that I could use....but Hmm? is this person a supporter of God? I think not, but I could be wrong?Correct – evidently Ellen White teaches that you can prosecute and judge others Why does Ellen White teach God needs your help to prosecute others? Can’t your god prosecute all by himself?He promotes confusion, by quoting confusion from other sources. He is an academic working on his PhDHe is NOT PREACHING a party line like yourselfHe is an academic looking at the material without bias something you are unable to to – unwilling to do – instead you want to preach Ellen White ---------------------- Dave" they had the WORLD to worry about - they had the BEAST to worry about Rob" We both agree the SHAD were devils, and we both know the NT term for this is Satanas. Question: Does the Shad, or dragon, link to a saraph being?No – the shedim are not heavenly seraphim angels They are archon – devils and satanas – serpents from the BEAST---------------------------------------- Dave" Martin Luther – sure did not see your two god controversy of one god opposing another Rob" God only judges you by the light you know, and saves you regardless of your imperfect knowledge, but because you ask for salvation.So you claim Ellen White and her teaching is superior to Martin Luther Make sense – the SDA consider Ellen White to be equal with Paul and consider her writing as a replacement GospelMuch like Joseph Smith and his – Mormon Bible – a replacemet scripture How can an Opposer oppose humans, but obey God? Contradiction.... Correct – you teach it is a sin to obey God
If satan did it 1 Chr 21:1 - you say it is a sin - or contradict yourself If God did it 2 Sam 24:1 - you must contradict yourself - or call God a sinner But accuse me of teaching confusionWhen the angel of Death took the lives of all the first born You teach God forced this angel to commit sin When actually – scripture says it was God himself Why do you teach that your god is a sinner?------------------------ Dave" Pastors must keep their audience – congregation – donors happy Rob" So religion is a money making business? I pity such mockery. All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.Mat 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick by one and look down on the other. You cannot serve God and money.” Mat 6:25 “So I say to you, do not worry about your life—what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t life more than food and the body more than clothing? Luk 9:2 He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. Luk 9:3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey—no walking stick, no travel bag, no bread, no money, nor even to have two shirts. Luk 18:22 When Yeshua heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all, as much as you have, and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.” Seventh Day Adventist PastorSalary.com - https://www.salary.com › ... › Seventh Day Adventist The base salary for Pastor in companies like Seventh Day Adventist range from $87,473 to $120,625 with the average base salary of $106,435. Yep – poor little SDA pastors On top of their wages – I bet your congregation also pays for their insurance Many get a housing allowance – on top of that Salary.comhttps://www.salary.com › company › president-salary The average annual North American Division Of The Seventh-Day Adventist Church Salary for President is estimated to be approximately $726447 per yearYep – poor little SDA pastors – ¾ of a Million a yearDo the SDA own property? Does the SDA play tax games with the government to be tax exempt Do the SDA carry mortgages on their buildings Do the SDA carry insurance on their buildings I bet many SDA churches are nicer that your home or mineRob" So religion is a money making business? Yep – and the SDA are no exception Tell me again how - All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.------------------------------------------------------- Eze 34:2 ...Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! Selfish pastors.… Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, ...but ye feed not the flock. Selfish pastors.... Yep – that is exactly what I saidSo the Pastors are not to feed themselves nor does the flock feed the Pastors. Now you contradict yourself What a bunch of unrealistic SDA propagandaTell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different Tell me again how - All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich. Tell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different than the Catholics WOW – Look at that SDA church - so $$$$$impressive$$$$$www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/how-general-conference-investments-are-handled/GC Treasurer Explains How Wall Street “Crash” of `87 Affected the Church’s FinancesWith the General Conference holding more than $500 million in various investment funds, many church members have asked how well the church fared during the Year of the Crash-1987. The answer is, quite well. Although the loss in book value of investments for the year totaled nearly $23.4 million, the losses were more than offset by the realized capital gains, dividends, and interest income of $64 million.Tell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different Tell me again how - All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.Tell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different than the Catholics You are not academic – because you refuse to look at the facts without your predigestal bias You will not deal with the facts – you just preach the propaganda Mr Honest------------------- You prosecuting angel function is an invented idea. Having a prosecutor might be helpful if any sins are not confessed and thus not atoned for, but how would a prosecutor know if any sins are forgiven, when the forgiven process is between the human and God. Dave" You did not discuss this statment. Yes I haveEllen White teaches you that you are without sin This is a lie – just religious propaganda to milk the public out of their money Your SDA church is a money laundry – asking for penances - funneling cash to the crime organization – raping cash form the little guy – avoiding paying taxes on their take – and the crime bosses live a lavish lifestyle. Your Ellen White was not as smart as JW’s general RutherfordDuring the depression – the JW built a multi-million dollar mansion in Hollywood (Beverly Hills) – and deeded it not to the church – but to Elijah, Moses, and Ezekiel It stands today – tax exempt – unable to sell as long as the church pays the property tax – it remains untouchable Yes – organized religion is a business Every seminary – offer classes in business management – they call it church management – but it is the same classAndrews University Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary4145 E. Campus Circle Drive seminary@andrews.edu (269) 471-3537 Course Schedule - vault.andrews.edu › schedule BSAD 341 001 (251) - Main / Lecture - Business Law Koch, Jonathan B. BSAD 341 901 (1954) - Field-Based - Business Law Ackerman, George BSAD 341 999 (1564) - Field-Based - Business Law Ackerman, George BSAD 345 001 (203) - Main / Lecture - Business and Society Maguad, Ben A. BSAD 355 001 (204) - Main / Lecture - Principles of Management Maguad, Ben A. BSAD 355 901 (1966) - Field-Based - Principles of Management Courts, Bari L. EXACTLY WHY – I do not claim allegiance with any of it I reject the titles – Presbyterian – or Methodist – or whatever I am none of those – because they all come with CORPORATE baggage
Mammon + Dec 25 he birth of 3 pagan gods – Tammuz – Mithras – and the SUN god The SUN – that dies on the cross – announced by 3 kingsrest in the ground for 3 days (Dec 22,23,24) and rises again on Dec 25th Easter instead of Passover –Easter is a celebration of the vernal equinox – a pagan astrology religion (wiki) Passover begins on the night of a full moon after the northern vernal equinox. and Ellen White worships satan as a god EXACTLY WHY – I do not claim allegiance with any of itI am a Born Again Christian – lead by the Spirit The words of Saint Anybody mean little to me other than his opinion I have sat through church board meetings where the pastor is whining that he needs a new truck – yet his $70,000 Dodge diesel 1 ton dually is better than 99% of the congregation’s I have listened to my pastor claim he only makes $1500 a month – poor him This is true – his guaranteed salary But as a Board member – I know we also pay his health Insurance for him, his wife, and two children – another $1700a month We also give him $1500 a month for housing – because we didn’t own a parsonage We also paid for most of his gas – because he would take his kids to the park – do business in town – shop – then stop at the hospital to visit for 2 minutes – and we paid for the gas for the “VISITATION” Rush Sharf – was a missionary pastor in our area – filled in for our pastor sometimes – he worked for “Prison Ministries” and services the prison. Once a year we dedicated a Sunday to him – to tell us of his ministry and to ask for support – because he collects NO PAY CHECK As a Board member – I felt sad that all we could afford was $250 a month Then years later – my x-wife (realestate agent) to find him a house in town so he could take lunch with his wife – on top of his other obligations he is limited with funds – he can only afford another mortgage payment of $2500 Just how many churches are giving him $250 a month – but he collects NO PAY CHECK – poor missionary So do NOT give me any crap about the SDA being any different – or even special – just another man-made cult – following an individual person instead of the Word of God I HOPE I HAVE MADE MYSELF CLEAR!Belonging to a club is NOT the same as the CHURCH and no on has the authority to rewrite scripture - not even Ellen White
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Post by Dave on Oct 8, 2023 3:05:36 GMT -5
Dave" So – you deny that we are saved by GRACE Are you making this up – or is this really an Ellen White teaching? Rob" Really Dave, of course we are saved by grace, via faith. Then why do you post the opposite – and then pretend you didn’t Mr Honest------------------------ Dave" If you stop to consider – do I need to atone (Yom Kippur) Is not a judgment? What force makes you think you need atonement? Yom Kippur is a judgement process of sorts, yes. Again - What force makes you think you need atonement?But when does this judgement occur? Lev 16, Correct if you are an ancient Jew But heb 9:27 is judgment after death
How would you define atonement? Verses please. DAVE" www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/zechariah-4Court room setting - In heaven Rob" Is this all your discussion you have, a mere passing comment made from a Jewish Virtual Library? You asked for Jewish commentary and – now you complain
They assume the earlier bits of Zec 1,2 are visions, so Zec 3 must be a vision too...? Yep – visions Dave" Yes – Joshua is alive Rob" But before you said Joshua died. Flip flop? Nope -in his vision he is dead on earth and alive in heaven – Life Lives
Now you wish to add the "spirit of Joshua lives" Yep – Life Lives--------------------------------------- Dave" now you deny that God can pardon you for living a life of sin ROb" Why do you post so little and often confusing? Zec 3 Dave sees this as a divine pardon, after Joshua died. This idea is bogus. You say things then deny you said them – Mr HonestDave" You whine because you are lazy - student I direct you to Jewish thought - and you just deny it as heresy Rob" Chabad.org has numerous Jewish stuff, but no Biblel studies to I see there. DOn't Jews make a Bible study, verse by verse, using the Science Hypothesis process? No they just quote here and there and make up stuff, and do not quibble the traditions of men before them. Yep – I direct you to Jewish thought and you reject it – complain about it – those damn jews do not understand how to study scripture------------------- Gordon Nememiah is the only Jew who wrote details about elohiym, yet he does not follow his convictions, of the 6 verses he does not like, he follows the thousands of other verses instead. He does not allow all verses to change his view of eloihiym. I got one email from him, bias over my polytheism, whatever that word means to a Jew. Correct – Gordon Nememiah probaly allows CONTEXT to play a role You do not – and critiscize other who do – even Jeff BrennerDave" explainingthebook.com/2019/01/27/zechariah-3-commentary-verses-1-5/ "And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. " False, an assumption. How do court room operate in Australia without prosecutors?Answer – (google) Crown Prosecutors are independent and perform a very specialised and demanding role. In a criminal trial the Crown Prosecutor represents the community. Their role is to assist the court and the jury to arrive at the truth and to do justice between the community and the accused. How is this vision about a court room scene? "And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. " Author" And there’s no human courtroom involved here. This is a heavenly visionary court ROb" Prove to me this is a court room scene. You can't. It's a sanctuary in heaven, Court room vrs sanctuary – you just want to argue words and play word games
-------------------------------- Author" And we understood there that this is a reference to a reality that we know happened in the New Testament – that God the Father sent God the Son. And when that happened and when it will yet happen again in the future when Jesus returns – it can truly be said that the Lord of Hosts sent the Lord of Hosts. Rob" Is this supporting your view of the expression idea of a single strong authority? No indeed. God = Christ / Christ = God - Trinity Author" But why the rebuke? Because Satan is accusing the God-ordained head of Israel’s religious system at the time – the high priest, Joshua. ROb" correct Correct – Hebrew satan is opposing / accusing Joshua NOT GodAuthor" But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. And so, he claims that he does that very thing concerning Israel’s religious system in this vision. ROb" Yes but this is not some heavenly court scene Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, Why do you deny the NT?Author" So, the literal meaning behind the symbolic act of removing Joshua’s filthy clothing is that Jesus has forgiven the sin of this man. ROb" FInally Zec 3 Dave sees this as a divine pardon, after Joshua died. This idea is bogus. You say things then deny you said them – Mr HonestAuthor" So, the angel of the Lord – who is the Judge and the Defense and, really, the Jury in this vision – whom we know to be the Lord Jesus Christ – he approves of this restoration of the religious leadership and system of his people. Rob" Question: Was this study written by a Jew? Why does it surprise you that Mystic Kabbalah Judaism is very Christian – Jesus di not come to change a thing – not one iota Mat 5:17-20------------------- Dave" Mr Serious – why do you misrepresent others Quote me saying that Hebrew satan is a prosecutor in the story of Job ROb" Oh sorry, so if the STN is an opposer of JOb, not functioning as some prosecutor, what function does the Opposer function as, in JOB? An angel of the Lord -in service to the Lord – doing a dirty job------------------- Previous posts Dave" he opposes you for being a sinner ROb" What a joke ! So an angel opposes the human because he is sinning? How does an angel even know the human is sinning? Sin begins in the mind, where no actions have NOT begun as yet. Dave" Correct ROb "Mocking aside, are you agreeing with me, Why do you misrepresent others? Mr Honest---------------- Did GOD really design the world to bring sin into the world intentionally? Is this your view? I hope not. My view - GOD really design the world to allow sin to enter the worldDoes God really test sinless people. No such thing as a sinless person-------------- Dave" NOPE – perfectly on topic Why does God test His chosen Answer – to seek the truly faithful – the Prodigal Son ROb" to seek the faithful? What is faith Dave? Belief in the hearth that God came to earth to save humanity – then to confess it to be trueDave" Why does God test His chosen To separate the wheat form the chaff ROb" YOu are saying what I am saying, the testing is about sorting out the free will to truly choose. Then why do you deny the story of the prodigal Son? Is this just more contradictions from you Dave" Why can't God just forgive, and welcome them back freely, Every Christian believes this to be true – why don’t you? ROb" But Jesus had to die for our sins? Why? ANd come clad in a human body as well. Why?
1- to walk a mile in man’s shoes 2- to fulfill all the cycle of life requirements of the OT – blood 3- to prove to th whole world that LIFE LIVES 4- to prove to the whole world that the God of Abraham , Isaac, and Jacob is the One true God 5- to reveal God’s power and glory Rob PP" but the salvation process is much more complex than this. Dave" NOPE – SIMPLE - believe in your heart and confess (Jer 1:5) ROb" NO Dave, simple for humans yes, but not simple for GOD
1) He had to pay life for life for mischief 2) He has to offer His body for our body, ie remove mischief 3) He had to make retribution for all eternity, a very costly sacrifice for human sin 4) Only than could the human be fully restored as before Yep – this is what He did for us and all we have to do is believe it to be true / fact in your heart – and confessDave" Written in nature for all to see ROb "so natural decomposition is a part of GOD absolute design? Yep – Rom 1:19-20 – Psa 19:2Rob PP "A mischief maker made permanent changes of mischief to Eve as soon as she sinned, Dave" Correct – you teach that your satan god is the second creator ROb" since when is spoiling the DNA, also creating the DNA? Come one Dave, get real. You teach that you satan god has the power to change / alter God Plan against God’s Will Weak Creator– strong satan god - REJECTEDDave" The penalty for this was life for life. ie: blood. Just a moment ago – you said you didn’t understand this Rob" How many religions out there understand why Jesus died in a human body with blood in it as a symbol of something greater? Not an answer – why do you doubt it – then post it as part of your own argument – Mr HonestDave" Grace (God's kindness) overlooks the sins of the sinner and saves them as sinless. Just a moment ago you said “the Old Testament believers were saved by grace (God’s unearned favour) - Summary: the answer is NO.” Which is it Robert? ROb" Typical confusion Dave. I did not say these things like this?" But it is important to add that offering a sacrifice was not a work that earned salvation. As noted above, the Old Testament believers were saved by grace (God’s unearned favour) through faith, just as we are. Offering the sacrifice was an outward demonstration of inward faith in God’s promise. Without faith, the sacrifice was just an empty ritual–in fact, it was an abomination to God (cf. Isa. 1:10- " wordwisebiblestudies.com/old-testament-salvation-salvation-before-the-cross/Summary: the answer is NO.D" Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. By Him for Him R" SO SIN was inevitable as a consequence of this agent of RA doing bad things to human? Wrong. Correct – you deny that God is in control You teach God lost control of His own creation You deny that it can’t be God’s Plan / God’s Will You teach your satan is powerful enough to change / alter God Plan against God’s Will Your teaching is REJECTED and is an insult to the sovereignty of God------------------ Dave" He promotes confusion, by quoting confusion from other sources. He is an academic working on his PhD ROb" exactly. Not a bible study even. A collection of human studies. Dave" He is an academic looking at the material without bias ROb" bias? really? A nonbeliever comes with bias? WOW – this is your only educated response – call him names prosecute him and judge him – Mr Ellen White Christian----------------------- Dave" The base salary for Pastor in companies like Seventh Day Adventist range from $87,473 to $120,625 with the average base salary of $106,435. ROb" I am disgusted to here this Dave, Dave" The Seventh-Day Adventist Church Salary for President is estimated to be approximately $726447 per year ROb" I am disgusted. Dave" Yep – and the SDA are no exception Tell me again how - All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.ROB" I agree, disgusting. Tell me again why you lie and just promote propaganda instead of academic fact----------------------------- Dave" You are not academic – because you refuse to look at the facts without your bias Rob" Dave I do not attend my local SDA church currently because of elders who rejects me and my unwelcome presence. Correct – your goal is to be disruptive – satan boyDave" EXACTLY WHY – I do not claim allegiance with any of it ROb" so what assembly do you attend than Dave?Any – all of them – through my life and my travels I have probably attend 50-75 local corner churches 1971 I attened a service at the washington DC National Cathedral as I spent a week at an Epistiple Seminary Never attended a JW meeting – other than at my front door Never attended a Mormon Temple Never attended a SDA service Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; We are to attend our assemblies... not forsake them... Yep – Agree But – it does not mean church – it can be anywhere – at work – in a restaurant – on the streetMy forsaken the assemblies is temporary for now...Because you do not go to worship and praise – you go to argue and criticize---------------------------------- Please take the time to listen to James Tabor Respond to his video – before making another postHow and When Did Satan Become the God of this World? Finally a line by line honest review of all the verses about satan The project Robert refused to complete ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/post/9365/quote/609?page=1
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Post by Dave on Oct 9, 2023 12:48:29 GMT -5
NICE DAgain Robert – your understanding of Judaism is NULLThere are 2000 types of Christianity, so there are 1000s of Christian commentaries. So many that they come in encylopedic sets – volume after volume However, there are only two basic types of Jews – Talmundic Jews and Hasidic Jews Talmudic Jew – are Sanhedrin – they deny the spirit and the resurrection – or life after death Talmudic Jews have generally hated the Christians trying to kill them all through history The collection of valued commentary for the Talmudic Jew is The Talmud a collection of Oral Law and the discussions about them The Sanhedrin have always been the Law enforcers In Jerusalem today – they won't answer the phone on Sabbath – they block their roads so no can drive a car – many of them wear the curls from their temples ----------------------------------------------- The collection of valued commentary for the Hasidic Jew is the Zohar a collection of commentary and the discussions about them known as the Kabbalah Hasidic Jews – are Pharisees – believe in spirit – and the after life Nicodemus and Jesus discussing being Born again of spirit -John 3 Their writings are very Christian – (they don’t say Christ or Messiah) From them you get the practice of Korbats – how do you sacrifice to God when away from the Temple – Answer Korbats – feed the hungry – care for the sick – help the widows – clothed the naked (i.e. care for God’s children – act like a Christian) From them – you get the teaching of the Spirit and the RESURRECTION - 160 years before Christ (2 Maccabees) Through history they are more passive – more forgiving around 1200 AD they started forcing their children to read Hebrew aloud as a daily practice TODAY- from this group are the Ashkenazi Jews Ashkenazi Jews – today – hold most Noble Prizes and math / science Awards Albert Einstein – Henry Kissinger – Goldi Meyer – Menakem Bagen – Eric Weinstein Chabad.org is a modern version – a liberal version – a pro-Messianic version Walter Veith has already predigested you against all things Jewish He even teaches that the Kabbalah says Jesus was actually satan. Without ever looking at it yourself – you just reject anything to do with it – because its Jewish – you call it names – say it teaches mysticism and witchcraft You already know that whatever it says it is going to be wrong So academic – so diligent – so open minded – so interested in the truth Once you said TORAH only no outside source EXCEPT Ellen White Now you want commentaries - because you are unwilling to accept scripture So consistant All these absolutes you preach to others have to many exceptions to be absolute One false word and the entire text is garbage - except scripture or Ellen White Ellen White teaches that your serpent picked the fruit himself and handed it to Eve - LIE Ellen teaches earthquakes are cause by oil and coal fire within the earth - LIE and STUPID Ellen White teaches that Jersulam will never be rebuilt - LIE (google) 2008 70.6% of Americans claimed to be Christian - 0.5% of them are SDA Yet - of all the largest churches in the world - the SDA are the 4th most wealthy and many of its leaders retire as MILLIONARS One false word and the entire text is garbage - except LIES and FRAUD in the name of Ellen White----------------------------------- using the Science Hypothesis process?This is where you make a guess what it is supposed to say – then research individual verses (or words in your case) to support your pre-concieved theory So very different than allowing scripture to speak to you and listening to what it says Instead - you spend all your energy trying to prove a negative
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Post by rob on Oct 12, 2023 15:44:23 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Most of your comments are not discussing my discussion, you mock and confuse readers instead.1) Here is one post I can understand:- Dave" You teach your satan is powerful enough to change / alter God Plan against God’s WillName me one thing the Opposer created when Adam sinned? I cannot think of any? The Opposer only spoils. Scripture says the Opposer is the Author of death. The first death is called a sleep. Notice the Opposer is not the Author of the second death, only the first death. Death is the opposite of living, and living comes from humans in relationship to God, as the Holy Spirit pervades the powers of GOD in us all, as the breath of life. So death is the separation of God from man, and thus the leaving of the man causes his state of death or sleep. Such a state is important as it signals the end of the man's sinning ability, and thus rests awaiting God's rewards of punishment during his judgement. BUT you say the spirit of man lives after the body dies, than this implies the sin of the spirit of man, does not end? Comments please Dave? God cursed the ground when Adam sinned, which are consequences of God's power flowing into Adam's world, God created for him. Hence GOD creates RA only after a sin consequence, AND NOT before sin. BUT you have GOD creating matter embedded with RA already in it. You have humans with embedded yester RA already embedded in their sinless bodies. You even say humans cannot have sinless bodies or sinless minds. Comments please Dave? Try to discuss my questions, instead of mocking my questions and beating around the bush, as you usually do. ------------------------------------------ 2) Dave" Correct – Gordon Nememiah probably allows CONTEXT to play a roleROb" Explain to me why should context change the basic word meaning of a word, like "elohiym". Words may take slight nuances in a sentence, but the word meaning never becomes totally different in different sentences. ----------------------------------------- 3) Dave posting a Jewish comment on Zach 3: " And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. " ROb comments" False, an assu mption. Dave replies" How do court room operate in Australia without prosecutors? Answer – (google) Crown Prosecutors are independent and perform a very specialised and demanding role. In a criminal trial the Crown Prosecutor represents the community. Their role is to assist the court and the jury to arrive at the truth and to do justice between the community and the accused.ROb" Explain to me how Zach 3 is about a judgement/ court room scene just because God is there and the Opposer is there? In Job we also have GOD, the Opposer and Sons of God who are saved creatures. But you claim the Opposer is no Prosecutor in Job, just a good angel doing a dirty work, as as a servant of GOD, helping to oppose humans. Now "Explain to me how Zach 3 is about a judgement/ court room scene just because God is there and the Opposer is there" BUT in JOB we have the same elements, but this time JOB is not facing a prosecutor? ------- Why have an opposer opposing humans in the first place? Why does the opposer oppose the salvation system of GOD? Can you answer that question? ----------------- 4) Dave " Court room vrs sanctuary – you just want to argue words and play word gamesROb" You just posted Gordon is allowed to have CONTEXT play roles in WORD MEANING, but not I am not allowed to? You are inventing passages to mean anything you wish, without paying attention to CONTEXT. Please explain. ------------------------ 5) Here is an typical example of how Dave does not understand what an Author is talking about. Jewish Author Dave posted commenting on Zach3:- " But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. And so, he claims that he does that very thing concerning Israel’s religious system in this vision.ROb" Yes but this is not some heavenly court scene Dave replies" Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, Why do you deny the NT?ROb" Dave is not even understanding what this Jewish author is talking about. " But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. " This statement assumes the human is snatched from the fires (of the Opposer) while alive and still living. But Dave posts to verse to prove the human is dead and thus experiences judgement. And add further I deny the NT? Rob's earlier comment proves Rob understands what the Jewish Author is saying, but add its not about a court room scene function, but about God's right to save humans from their sinning. Dave, why can't you discuss properly and see what the Jewish Author is saying? I am saying what the Author is saying" But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. " This is a correct statement, and proves GOD saves humans while they are alive and still living. DO you agree with this idea? This is NOT a function of Judgement and Court room scene. This is a salvation scene, and about God saving humans while they are sinning. Now discuss my discussion Dave. ------------------ 6) Rob" Question: Was this study written by a Jew? Dave does not answer my question, but instead MOCKS my simple question with " Why does it surprise you that Mystic Kabbalah Judaism is very Christian ?Rob" SO I take it this is a Jewish author? A simple Yes is sufficent. I am surprised because it is a rare very detailed Jewish account, like Gordon's discussion is also rare, and very detailed. ------------------------------- 7) ROb Posted Previously" Oh sorry, so if the STN is an opposer of JOb, not functioning as some prosecutor, what function does the Opposer function as, in JOB?Dave replied briefly" An angel of the Lord -in service to the Lord – doing a dirty jobROb" Some discussion. Brevity. So GOD, the human sons of GOD and Opposer all present. But no court room scene here. No judgement. Seems same as Zach 3? But is not? Both passages (Job and Zach3) are about GOD and God's right to save sinners in their sins, dirty clothes. Both are saved clean and perfectly "tom" before God. In Job, the Opposer is not happy with God's declaration of JOb being saved? Question: Is a good angel allowed to answer back at GOD? QUestion: Is a good angel allowed to do RA? which cannot be done (by the way) has to be created by GOD, inorder for RA even to exist and show itself as RA. What is RA? anything dysfunctional. What is a functional GOD asking an angel to do things dysfunction? How can a robot designed to be functional, even be capable to doing anything dysfunctional? Which from Gen 3:22 is defined as sinning? an opposing elohiym power to God? ---------------- 8) Here is another example of Dave FAILING to discuss and even follow a DISCUSSION properly..... instead you mock and beat around the bush.... Previous posts Dave" he opposes you for being a sinner ROb" What a joke ! So an angel opposes the human because he is sinning? How does an angel even know the human is sinning? Sin begins in the mind, where no actions have NOT begun as yet. Dave" Correct ROb "Mocking aside, are you agreeing with me, Dave" Correct – Why do you misrepresent others? Mr Honest
ROB" Again Dave fails to answer my question. Dave, can any angel investigate human sinning? a) How can a robot designed to be function, now be capable to investigating humans who are dysfunctional? Rob" in my view NOT possible. FOr example AI machines process logic and correct algorthimns. A world chess player beats AI machines by intentionally moving illogical moves. The machines cannot logically process dysfunctional moves and access any logic from such a move. But an ARUM creature can, because such a creature knows both Good and Evil, and thus is a false elohiym power, with free will to know both function and dysfunction. An AI robot cannot achieve this. b) GOD is a GOD of function all the time. Not a GOD of both function and dysfunction. Now discuss my discussion properly. Instead you mock and do not discuss. ------------------------------- 9) Dave" No such thing as a sinless personROb" What? Adam was sinless before He sinned Eve was sinless before she sinned. Care to explain yourself Dave? ------------------------------ 10) Rob asks Dave a question:- What is faith Dave?Dave replies" Belief in the hearth that God came to earth to save humanity – then to confess it to be trueROB" So this answer is "mental assent"? A process in the mind of the cognitive human brain? (Rob has no spirit entity) Or A process in the spirit with the fleshy cognitive human brain? Or A process in the spirit entity of man? How much confusion does Dave add to the makeup of mankind? ROB" I thought Faith is a doing process, not just a mental process? ---------------------------- 11) You teach that you satan god has the power to change / alter God Plan against God’s Will Weak Creator– strong satan god - REJECTEDRob" Explain to me how naturally darkness exists Dave, without the light going away?
GOD is light, and in order for the Opposer to exist in Darkness, the LIGHT has to move away from the Opposer. But you reject GOD having to alter His will.Please explain this.....both natural, and spiritual If light never moved away, darkness would never exist. DUH so your premise is wrong. (Actually GOD does not move away, and remains absolute, GOD allows a MEDIUM to exist and change the properties of GOD, but this still proves my point that the light is diminished when darkness exists.) ------------------------ 12) Dave " You teach God lost control of His own creationROb" What a ridiculous thing to say. If GOD lost control over His creation, all of creation would suddenly cease to exist. Also if GOD lost control over the sinnner sinning, than the sinner would suddenly cease to exist. This includes the sinning angel too, the Opposer. But when creatures sin, GOD has to respond. You reject this idea of GOD changing his will? God created free will, so the plan to respond to free will is a part of GOD's design. it's a part of love. Love is about risk. God moving and responding to risk is part of God too, but not something God enjoys or loves to do. Dave" Your teaching is REJECTED and is an insult to the sovereignty of GodROb" So GOD never gave the sinning prodigal his inheritiance money before the father died? It is an insult to get inheritance while the father was alive? --------------------- 13) Dave writes" How and When Did Satan Become the God of this World? Finally a line by line honest review of all the verses about satan The project Robert refused to complete----------------------- Please take the time to listen to James Tabor Respond to his video – before making another post---------------------------------------------- youtu.be/lKItbUWnymAHow and When Did Satan Become the God of this World? Rob's Answer: When Adam sinned, Satan became the Prince of the World. 1.00 Satan as fallen to the earth, Satan falls from heaven to earth, with angels, human like figures with wings. Satan Devil Ancient Serpent Great Dragon Prince of the World Ruler of the world his angels and servants 7:00 8:58 The Opposer can steal God's truth from you immediately... ===================== I don't need to listen to the rest of the video ALready 8 minutes in he agrees with me
1) The Opposers is a fallen angel 2) The Opposer steals truth from humans immediately so the human has no chance of free will pondering salvation from God. This is termed "ratsach" wounding the human, or a function of murder. ================ Care to discuss why you include a video that agrees with me in the first 8 minutes? ================ 14) DIllon posts a video of a little boy talking to God.How is this video Dillon supporting Dave and his three expressions of the the same entity? God and his SON, is my view and the LOVE shown in the video is my View. Thank you for your confirmation Dillon. ---------------------------- 15) Dave: " Walter Veith has already predigested you against all things JewishRob" Why do you Mock so much, when I do not mock you or say bad things about you or your personality? If I read Gordons material, and your last Jewish Author, that I am happy to read Jewish material like that, because it is very detailed. Dave" Once you said TORAH only no outside source EXCEPT Ellen White Now you want commentaries - because you are unwilling to accept scripture So consistantROB" Dave, I am only sola scriptoria. You read outside sources, not me. Dave" One false word and the entire text is garbage Rob" Yes, and that includes the torah scriptures and Ellen White messages, if you wish to include them as a prophetic messages. Scripture says you judge messages against the torah, otherwise there is no light of dawn. Dave" Ellen White teaches that your serpent picked the fruit himself and handed it to Eve - LIEScripture does not say Dave, so it is not wrong I do not need these additional insights to debate you Dave, so why do you bring them up? Only to mock. Dave" Yet - of all the largest churches in the world - the SDA are the 4th most wealthy and many of its leaders retire as MILLIONARESROB" Dave I typed in BING, SDA salary and got this Approximately $40,000 Average SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH Pastor yearly pay in the United States is approximately $40,000, which is 13% below the national average.
This is about right from my experience in PNG. Pastors receive little, Plus free housing and free rent to make living OK in the SDA church. So something is wrong with your claim, but my point is why must you MOCK and ridicule my religion? Dave" using the Science Hypothesis process?
This is where you make a guess what it is supposed to say – then research individual verses (or words in your case) to support your pre-concieved theoryROB" NO this is where you are supposed to discuss my discussion, but you don't, you mock and beat around the bush. Dave" So very different than allowing scripture to speak to you and listening to what it says Instead - you spend all your energy trying to prove a negativeROb" You don't even read Scripture CONTEXT Dave. you invent stuff when it suits you. you play word game meanings. ==================== www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan1) Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor,Rob" The error here is who are the Sons of GOD? The Jewish material here says in JOB the OPPOSER is functioning as some celestial prosecutor? This statement Dave opposes. 1) The Opposer is not a member of the DIvine COuncil 2) Nor does the Opposer watch over human activity because the Opposer is a servant of GOD and told to do this idea.. 3) Nor does the opposer appear as man's accuser. The opposer is out to destroy mankind in their sins. ---------- 2) Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God.ROB" The Opposer has limited actions on Job, because GOD has already saved Job and thus no further tempting is allowed by the Opposer, unless GOD lowers his hedge around His own. " All is in thy power" proves that the Opposer has independent actions within boundaries, just as any free will creature has independent actions within boundaries also defined by GOD. God gives the breath of living to all creatures, even those who oppose Him. So with independent actions, any creature with free will can oppose God simply by sinning, ie choosing to break away from God's power flowing in their life. The first of the moral laws prohibits using free will to become an opposing elohiym power before the Father's face (Exodus 20:1). --------------- 3) in I Chron. xxi. 1 " Satan" appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, Rob" Now the Jews blame independent actions of the Opposer in later torah accounts on Zoroastrianism. Doesn't the torah come from GOD, as inspired men were to write as God's message? Why make excuses and invent your own traditions of the Satan? Moses knew where sin comes from in Deut 32:- De 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? And De 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. So where does RA and SIN come from, the work of the hands of sinning creatures. NOT GOD. Jews do not consider the Opposer as a sinning cherub. But Moses did De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Moses termed this OPPOSER as a false elohiym power And as a SHAD, a breast providing false doctrines of power to Israel, not proper milky power as the SHADDAY does, from GOD. Moses uses poetry to indentify the false elohiym power De 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. But Dave ignores the scriptures. -------------------- 4) In the Apocrypha. The evolution of the theory of Satan keeps pace with the development of Jewish angelology and demonology. In Wisdom ii. 24 he is represented, with reference to Gen. iii., as the author of all evil, who brought death into the world; The doctrine of the fall of Satan, as well as of the fall of the angels, is found also in Babylonia (Schrader, l.c. p. 464), and is mentioned several times in the New Testament. Satan rules over an entire host of angels (Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2; Vita Adæ et Evæ, xvi.).ROb" So in other accounts the Jews see the Opposer as the author of all evil who brought death into the world. The Jews also admit to the Opposer ruling over a host of angels under him, as fallen angels, like he is. -------------------- 5) In the New Testament. The high development of the demonology of the New Testament presupposes a long period of evolution. In the Gospels the beliefs of the lower orders of society find expression, and Satan and his kingdom are regarded as encompassing the entire world, and are factors in all the events of daily life. In strict accordance with his manifold activity he bears many names, being called "Satan" (Matt. iv. 10; Mark i. 30, iv. 15; Luke x. 18 et passim), "devil" (Matt. iv. 1 et passim), "adversary" (I Peter v. 8, ἀντίδικος; I Tim. v. 14, ἀντικείμενος), "enemy" (Matt. xiii. 39), "accuser" (Rev. xii. 10), "old serpent" (ib. xx. 2), "great dragon" (ib. xii. 9), Beelzebub (Matt. x. 25, xii. 24, et passim), and Belial (comp. Samael). The fall of Satan is mentioned in Luke x. 18, John xii. 31, II Cor. vi. 16, and Rev. xii. 9. He is the author of all evil (Luke x. 19 et passim; Acts v. 3; II Cor. xi. 3; Ephes. ii. 2), who beguiled Eve (II Cor. xi. 3; Rev. xii. 9), and who brought death into the world (Heb. ii. 13), being ever the tempter (I Cor. vii. 5; I Thess. iii. 5; I Peter v. 8), even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. iv.). The belief in the devil as here developed dominated subsequent periods, and influenced indirectly the Jews themselves; nor has it been entirely discarded to-day.
Rob" Jews see the Opposer in the NT as the same Opposer in the OT, not a single mention as a different creature called Satanas. --------------- 6) Thus in Ab. iv. 11 sin itself, and not Satan, is the accuser, the term κατήγωρ becoming a standing epithet of Satan in the New Testament, and being applied to him by the later Talmudic teachers also.Rob" Dave can you read this title for us, κατήγωρ ? --------------- 7) In Talmud and Midrash. He is the incarnation of all evil, and his thoughts and activities are devoted to the destruction of man; so that Satan, the impulse to evil ("yeẓer ha-ra'"), and the angel of death are one and the same personality. He descends from heaven and leads astray, then ascends and brings accusations against mankind. Receiving the divine commission, he takes away the soul, or, in other words, he slays (B. B. 16a). He seizes upon even a single word which may be prejudicial to man; so that "one should not open his mouth unto evil," i.e., "unto Satan" (Ber. 19a).Rob" Here is the only Jewish material that is different from studies in the torah, inventions from the traditions of men. -------------------- 8) His Functions. The chief functions of Satan are, as already noted, those of temptation, accusation, and punishment. He was an active agent in the fall of man (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., beginning), The serpent of Gen. iii. is identified with Satan (see Weber, l.c. pp. 218 et seq.; comp. Adam; Eve; Serpent).Rob" Jews do not see the Opposer as opposing both God and Man. I agree the Opposer as an active agent in the fall of man. Notice the serpent in Eden's garden is Satan, not Satanas.--------------------------------- www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.ciii.htmlRob" I found this statement:- And there they did remain until Herod, who slew the infants in Bethlehem, was dead, and Archelaus had succeeded him. And he died before Christ came to the dispensation on the cross which was given Him by His Father. And when Herod succeeded Archelaus, having received the authority which had been allotted to him, Pilate sent to him by way of compliment Jesus bound; and God foreknowing that this would happen, had thus spoken: ‘And they brought Him to the Assyrian, a present to the king.’2343 Or He meant the devil by the lion roaring against Him: whom Moses calls the serpent, but in Job and Zechariah he is called the devil, and by Jesus is addressed as Satan, showing that a compounded name was acquired by him from the deeds which he performed. For ‘Sata’ in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate; and ‘Nas’ is the word from which he is called by interpretation the serpent, i.e., according to the interpretation of the Hebrew term, from both of which there arises the single word Satanas. For this devil, when [Jesus] went up from the river Jordan, at the time when the voice spake to Him, ‘Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten Thee,’2344 is recorded in the memoirs of the apostles to have come to Him and tempted Him, even so far as to say to Him, ‘Worship me;’ and Christ answered him, ‘Get thee behind me, Satan: thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.’2345 For as he had deceived Adam, so he hoped2346 that he might contrive some mischief against Christ also.ROB" both terms Satan anf Satanas refer to the same creature. ================== Research into Greek word satanas It came to Latin from Hebrew (שָּׂטָן satan), through Greek (Σατανᾶς satanas) and means enemy, adversary.
In Judaism and Christianity, it is also one of the names given to the devil, a supernatural creature that lead a rebelion against God and one of the main instigators of evil in the World.
The -as ending is purely grammatical. As can be seen, it was added in ancient Greek as a common ending of nouns in that language.Rob: so the stem word Satan is the same stem word as Hebrew satan? ---------- The -as here is actually the Greek masculine ending -ᾱς. It's a dialectal variation on the -ης (-ēs) you see in names like Socrates, Euripides, Achilles, and so on: probably the most common ending for male names in Ancient Greek.
So when people started translating the Bible and the Torah into Ancient Greek, and came across the word שָׂטָן (satan, "adversary"), they had two choices for how to represent it. One option was to translate it literally, with the Greek word διάβολος (diábolos, "betrayer"). The other option was to take the word satan and just respell it in the Greek alphabet as σαταν.
In the end, translators weren't consistent. Sometimes they used diábolos, sometimes they used satan. But satan doesn't look much like a Greek word, and if anything would be an accusative form, which is just confusing. So since the Hebrew satan is masculine, they stuck the most common Greek masculine ending onto it, creating Satanâs.ROb" A good answer, the word Satan in Greek appears not good, so the translators added "es" or "as" making the masculine ending more proper Greek, satanas. -------- Another option is that it comes not directly from Hebrew śāṭan, but via Aramaic sāṭānā, adorned with Greek case endings.Rob" In other words if Aramaic wrote the Hebrew Satan, as Satana, this becomes easier for Greek translators to add more Greek endings, with the "as" as masculine names were written in those days gone by :- hence Satanas. In other words the Greek word satanas, is the same stem word as Hebrew satan. ----------------- In my earlier work, I translated satanas, the Greek word translated as "Satan," as "adversity" or "adversary," which is the direct Aramaic meaning of the word, but more recently as "suffering" because many of the verses translate better that way. A "demon" (daimonion) might be considered a specific type of suffering, that is, suffering from a mental disorder. I have not reflected these recent ideas in this article, but keep them in mind as you read this. A "devil" (diabolos) is a false idea.
More importantly, all three of these words have been changed and been conflated by subsequent religious teachingchristswords.com/main/content/demons-devil-and-satanRob" How confusing, the author sees satanas as the same person as satan, but prefers to see devil as suffering, rather than as one who is slanderous or an opposer. He cites religion editing for this change. No wonder we all live in confusion, with all of us with different views, even with word meanings? --------------------- In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Satan is usually referred to as diabolos or “slanderer” (from the Greek verb diaballein, “to slander,” literally “to throw across”). But in the Greek New Testament, the Hebrew word, which is Satanas or Satan in its Greek form, is used as if it were the devil’s proper name. Rob" Interesting idea, since in Hebrew STN is nameless, the Greek translators chose to render Satan, as a proper name, hence Satanas. ------------------- The word “Satan” is derived from the Hebrew word “Satanas” meaning “adversary” or “accuser” and in the Greek New Testament, the word “Satan” is also transliterated from the Greek word “Satanas” which has the same meaning as the Hebrew word mentioned earlier Also, the term Satan is used throughout the Bible to refer to a spiritual being who opposes God and seeks to deceive and lead people away from Him.Rob" Nice ------------------- In Part One, we saw that Satan, the covering cherub who rebelled against God (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:12-17), does not want to be revealed for what he is and how he operates. But as God's elect, we must know these things because, living on earth—Satan's prison (II Peter 2:4; Jude 6)—we are behind enemy lines! Every little bit of information about him and his schemes could be useful in resisting him and the sinful traps he sets for us. Beyond the descriptions of his actions, we learn a great deal about him from the names and titles he is given in Scripture.
The title "Satan" occurs 53 times in 47 verses in the Bible. "Satan" is the Greek Satanas, which derived from the Hebrew ?ātān meaning "adversary." It points to him as the opponent of God, of believers, and of all that is right and good. rob" Interesting ----------------- The Bible reveals Satan was originally created a holy angel of the class of cherubim; however, because of pride (Ezek 28:11-18), he rebelled against God (Isa 14:12-14), and convinced many angels to follow him (Rev 12:4, 7). The name Satan is derived from the Hebrew שָׂטָן Satan which means “adversary, opponent…accuser, opposing party…[or] the one who hinders a purpose”[1] The Greek Σατανᾶς Satanas carries the same meaning and is used “in a very special sense of the enemy of God and all of those who belong to God.”[2]Rob" Does any link show Dave's view? --------------------- Of the two words translated as Satan, Σατᾶν (Satan, G4566 in Strong's) is used only once in 2Co 12:7 and is a derivative of Σατανᾶς (Satanas, G4567 in Strong's), which is used 36 times in the NT. Satanas (G4567) is a derivative of the Hebrew word Shaitan H7854) which we have seen in part #1. christiancorrector.blogspot.com/2015/06/greek-words-mistranslated-as-satandevil.htmlRob" Hmm? -------------------------- All this post is about proving to you your Satanas idea is bogus and the Satan in JOB is the same creature opposing salvation ans stopping humans seeking salvation. This proves the power of the Opposer is directly opposing GOD. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 12, 2023 16:59:24 GMT -5
Most of your comments are not discussing my discussion, you mock and confuse readers. 1) Here is one post I can understand:- Dave" You teach your satan is powerful enough to change / alter God Plan against God’s Will Name me one thing the Opposer created when Adam sinned? I cannot think of any? The Opposer only spoils.
Correct the only thing we know of your teaching is what you have written here God meant to created a tov world – but wasn’t allowed – lost control – your satan is to blame and EVERYTHING CHANGED Now we live NOT in God’s tov world – but the fallen world of your satan god
----------------------------------------- 2) Dave" Correct – Gordon Nememiah probably allows CONTEXT to play a role ROb" Explain to me why should context change the basic word meaning of a word, like "elohiym".
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (H430) created the heaven and the earth.
Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods (H430) will be a snare to you.’”
Hmm – according to you – you cannot tell the difference between thes two applications H430 Context don’t matter – god only means god Most of your confusion – and evidence of your lack of seriousness -----------------------------------------
3) Dave posting a Jewish comment on Zach 3: Done – over and over many times - finished You dissagree with every Jewish and Christian commentary You dissagree with everyone throughout the history of Judeo-Christendom 4) Dave "Court room vrs sanctuary – you just want to argue words and play word games -------
I have answered your questions many times – you you keep repeating youself Why have an opposer opposing humans in the first place?
God test his people
Why does the opposer oppose the salvation system of GOD? Can you answer that question? Because the archon get in your way – take your focuse off the HS You become sidetracked into something YOU find more interesting / valuable then the HS -----------------------
5) Here is an typical example of how Dave does not understand what an Author is talking about. Jewish Author Dave posted commenting on Zach3:- " But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. And so, he claims that he does that very thing concerning Israel’s religious system in this vision. ROb" Yes but this is not some heavenly court scene
So why go out of your way to deny scripture Find a word and fight againt the entire message 4) Dave "Court room vrs sanctuary – you just want to argue words and play word games
Dave replies" Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, Why do you deny the NT? ROb" Dave is not even understanding what this Jewish author is talking about. "But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. " This statement assumes the human is snatched from the fires (of the Opposer) while alive and still living.
Again – your only agrument = Scripture is error -------------------------------------------------
7) ROb Posted Previously" Oh sorry, so if the STN is an opposer of JOb, not functioning as some prosecutor, what function does the Opposer function as, in JOB?
Dave replied briefly" An angel of the Lord -in service to the Lord – doing a dirty job ROb" Some discussion. Brevity. BREVITY MY ASS – discussed this over and over for months The facts will not change regardless of how much you need to deny them ----------------
8) Here is another example of Dave FAILING to discuss and even follow a DISCUSSION properly..... instead you mock and beat around the bush.... Previous posts Dave" he opposes you for being a sinner ROb" What a joke ! So an angel opposes the human because he is sinning? How does an angel even know the human is sinning? Sin begins in the mind, where no actions have NOT begun as yet. Dave" Correct
Dave - Correct – Why do you misrepresent others? Mr Honest ROB" Again Dave fails to answer my question. Dave, can any angel investigate human sinning?
Everything you do and say is in full view of all the heaven and to all its occupants – your think that you can get away with sin in secret is ERROR
Your mandate that God's heavenly angels are stupid and blind is NONSENSE! -------------------------------
9) Dave" No such thing as a sinless person ROb" What? Adam was sinless before He sinned Eve was sinless before she sinned. Care to explain yourself Dave? You were sinless when you were born I was sinless when I was born But we sin – because all me are sinners - DUH
Eve was just the proof - the origional example
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Greek is not dependent upon word order Rom 5:12 ... for that all did sin; because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, ------------------------------
10) Rob asks Dave a question:- What is faith Dave?
Dave replies" Belief in the heart that God came to earth to save humanity – then to confess it to be true ROB" So this answer is "mental assent"? Your answer only proves you ‘don’t get it’ all you can imagine is biology ----------------------------
11) You teach that you satan god has the power to change / alter God Plan against God’s Will Weak Creator– strong satan god - REJECTED Rob" Explain to me how naturally darkness exists Dave, without the light going away? GOD is light, and in order for the Opposer to exist in Darkness, the LIGHT has to move away from the Opposer. But you reject GOD having to alter His will. Please explain this.....both natural, and spiritual
Why do you reject even the simplest scriptures Gen 1:2 = darkness – FIRST Gen 1:3 = Light is introduced into the darkness -----------------------
12) Dave "You teach God lost control of His own creation ROb" What a ridiculous thing to say. If GOD lost control over His creation, all of creation would suddenly cease to exist.
Yet you teach that your satan is to blame for it all being flawed Who is stronger to you – the Creator – or your god satan?
Scripture is unfolding as God Planned it from the very beginning - God is Absolute Scripture is unfolding exactly as God Willed from the beginning - God is Absolute It is his creation – and his creation is exactly as God Planned it Who established the CONTEST of gen 3:14-24? - GOD DID IT Who made the contestants? - GOD DID IT Who made the rules - GOD DID IT Who provides a way out? - GOD DID IT
Either God is absolute – or He is NOT
Why was the serpent in the garden talking to Eve? Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
Jas 1:12 Happy is the one who endures testing, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love Him.
Yep - the Jobs of the world – the Prodigal Sons – First Fruits
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one.
Nope – not directly by God – there is another entire race of beings – shedim Archon / Jinn / demons / the serpent race – THE BEAST – do it all by themselves
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. (yester ra)
Jas 1:16 Do not be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.
Who is scriptures deceiver? Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satanas, who deceives the whole world.
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Post by rob on Oct 13, 2023 14:46:57 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave posts different word meanings for elohiym Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (H430) created the heaven and the earth. Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods (H430) will be a snare to you.’” Hmm – according to you – you cannot tell the difference between thes two applications H430 Context don’t matter – god only means god Most of your confusion – and evidence of your lack of seriousnessRob" Gen 1:1 In the beginning Divine-Family-Power (of God) (H430) created the heaven and the earth. Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their Secular-Family-Power ( of god) (H430) will be a snare to you.’” Same as the KJV did, God and gods. One gets a capital the other doesn't. Both verses refer to a Hebrew word "elohiym power", the power that knows good and evil. But not all "elohiym power" is the same source. You show verses showing "two different elohiym powers". Sure I agree context tells them apart, but Gordon does not use the context in this way, he ignores the meaning of elohiym for all verses and suggests elohiym is cardinally one strong authority. But six verses of elohiym does not mean this idea of cardinally one strong authority. So Gordon ignores the six verses and follows the thousands of other verses. 3) Rob" Now the Jews blame independent actions of the Opposer in later torah accounts on Zoroastrianism. Doesn't the torah come from GOD, as inspired men were to write as God's message? Why make excuses and invent your own traditions of the Satan? Dave's replies were Done – over and over many times - finished You dissagree with every Jewish and Christian commentary Rob: "I do not disagree with every....." the is a icon I use when I agree with you on things you post, so again your premise is wrong. Many times I have liked what you post. Rob asks " Why does the opposer oppose the salvation system of GOD? Can you answer that question?Dave" Because the archon get in your way – take your focus off the HS You become sidetracked into something YOU find more interesting / valuable then the HSRob" Hey? You do not understand faith... Pr 16:9 ¶ A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. You plan your day as a course, and the faith steps of powers you ask for, empower that course. So in every way God is empowering you and your decisions. So you miss out on nothing at all. Nothing is more valuable than power from GOD, and you are empowered to ask anything in His Name. One catch is GOD does not like pride, presumption or selfish desires. The archons are opposers. Do you understand what an opposer is? Sure they keep you sidetracked so you do not seek salvation and salvations power. Instead you dwell in self human powers. But the Opposer wants to promote self as a god all by itself. This is the claim of their kingdom, that one can live by self powers and selfish desires. Left to self and selfishness, all such creatures would become rapidly extinct, they would kill off each other. This is why the Opposer is the Author of death. Ever watched a movie where RA humans are living the big life on drugs and nobody trusts the chain of command? Eventually all the humans shoot each other. You seem to think GOD designs elements of RA in HIS Creation, is complete bogus. Left to it's own, the dysfunction would destroy the functional and soon nothing of creation would exist. Entropy, chaos and disorder are like this, and consequences of SIN. This is why GOD limits the clock allowing such RA to exist in the first place. Why does RA exist, because SIN existed first and so the creature that sinned must show good reason for the use of his free will to others who also have free will but choose to love God instead. 5) Dave" So why go out of your way to deny scripture Find a word and fight againt the entire message Rob" Who says I fight against Scripture. " God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. " this is a correct statement, and the reason why the Opposer opposes God, because the Opposer does not want sinners to be saved. Such a saved person proves to other sinless beings that living in sin is a foolish idea, and that living under God's power by faith, is the only true way to live, like the sinless creatures do already. We are witnesses against the Opposer's claim, that we can be like the Most High. I present a reason for the Opposer opposing God. Your reason for the archons is to test humans, so a functional free will becomes dysfunctional. But why would GOD want to test functional human free will, with a free will that chooses to be dysfunctional? Sure love comes with risk, but why the need to test sinless love? No reason to test such love, for the love is already complete and perfect. No need to test functional love with dysfunctional means. You are making an oxymoron out of GOD. God is functional. God is never dysfunctional. Nor would ever GOD want to create things dysfunctional. However God does because of the sin problem came, and sin by definition is dysfunctional free will in operation. Rob replies "" But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. " This statement assumes the human is snatched from the fires (of the Opposer) while alive and still living. Dave" Again – your only agrument = Scripture is errorRob" Really Dave, must I guess your intent all the time? Can't you write? Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, Why do you deny the NT?
Heb 9:27 is speaking about your death, when you die, you face judgement. I am talking about something else, when you are alive, you can ask GOD to save you, snatched as a firebrand from the fire. Can't you see the difference here. DO you want a Bible verse? Ps 3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: ( David is alive and praying this prayer) Ps 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: (Jesus is still alive and asking His Father to save him from the enemy) Isa 38:20 The LORD was ready to save me: (Israel was saved alive crossing the red sea) Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: ( A promise to ask GOD to heal and save you while still alive) Mt 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. ( Peter asks Jesus to save him from sinking while still alive) Now please try to explain yourself DAVE, stop beating around the bush. I would like to understand you better. 7) Dave " BREVITY MY ASS – discussed this over and over for months The facts will not change regardless of how much you need to deny themA Jewish website posts" Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor," Dave posted that the angel serving the Lord, doing a diry job, is NOT functioning as a prosecutor? You seem to go against Jewish views now Dave? www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-book-of-job/Nothing on prosecutor www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-book-of-job-a-whirlwind-of-confusion/Nothing on prosecutor www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4387036/jewish/Who-Was-Iyov-Hero-of-the-Book-of-Job.htmAll this, at the behest of Satan, the adversarial angel, who persuades G‑d to test the robustness of Job’s faith.11 (Job 1:6-12.) Job would not “sin with his lips,”15 (Job 2:10.) says the Talmud, “but in his heart, he did.”16 (Bava Batra ) www.myjewishlearning.com/article/satan-the-adversary/fundamental differences — most notably perhaps the idea that, in the Hebrew Bible at least, Satan is ultimately subordinate to God, carrying out his purpose on earth. Rob" Really hard to find Jewish article on Job and the hey-Satan. Notice the Talmud, invent material, Bava Batra , which is completely not found in the torah. Jews consider the Opposer as an adversarial angel. Like Dave's view, a good angel doing a dirty job? Like what, getting humans to sin. If a bird flies within boundaries set by God, than the bird is not free to do as it pleases? Sure the bird has a sense of independence. If an opposer works within boundaries set by God, than is not the opposer free to do as it pleases? Sure the Opposer has some sense of independence. All humans are bounded by boundaries, set by God. Humans cannot fly, we cannot travel through space. Surely the context " all is within your power" establishes that the Opposer has independence. Why does GOD add do not take his life, when the Opposer could have killed Job, is because the human wished to be saved by God and God upholds Job's wish, hence restricts the Opposer from killing Job also. But Dave does not consider the Opposer also kills Job's children. Not directly, the Opposer has a department for killing humans. Dave" discussed this over and over for monthsRob" Dave I do not bring old material we have discussed before. This is a Jewish claim I bring to you brand new. DO you agree with me, or with the Jewish view, that discusses nothing why they view things that way. That the Opposer has a sense of independence, just as any creature does within it's allotted boundaries by God. 8) Dave" Everything you do and say is in full view of all the heaven and to all its occupants – your think that you can get away with sin in secret is ERROR
Your mandate that God's heavenly angels are stupid and blind is NONSENSE!Rob" Emotional ranting aside Dave, do you think angels can read a man's cognitive mind, where sin begins, within the mind of the human? Your comment is off topic, my above question you did not answer. 9) Dave" You were sinless when you were born I was sinless when I was born But we sin – because all me are sinners - DUHROb" SO if the baby is born sinless, why does it sin Dave? You might say because the yester RA within the flesh causes the mind to dwell on self powers, which is sin, ie a lack of faith. (But your view is an invention from Jews putting together words never found side by side) I would say the propensities of the flesh (Hebrew word :aven) begin to do habits of sinning the epi-genetic "aven was programmed to do" in the parents before it was conceived. According to the torah the "Aven genetics is inherited" And in my view, the first parents had no epigenetics of RA in them, hence they were truely sinless, and could remain that way forever, unless the mind is tricked into sinning, breaking faith. Dave shows "Rom 5:12 " ROb" you are correct , indeed through the mind choosing to sin, by trick deception, on behalf of the Opposer, the epi-genetic potential records the sinning and thus future children as born with aven habits of sinning. This verse does not say humans are the only creatures to have sinned. But our sinning does impact human sinning ever since. So Adam and Eve, impact all of humanity. 10 ) Dave" Your answer only proves you ‘don’t get it’ all you can imagine is biologyRob" And you do not explain youself, so I have to ask you to explain yourself, and do don't like to do this, because you like your religion they way it is, so you beat around the bush . You do not want anybody to understand you? Question: Can the spirit sin outside of it's body of flesh?You can explained before the spirit can talk outside of it's body of flesh upon the body's death. So what else can the spirit do outside of it's body? Question" How does the spirit talk without a mouth? or body parts to emulate speech? Maybe the spirit talks through the pineal gland using soundless communion. But wait, the pineal gland is biology too. 11) Dave" Why do you reject even the simplest scriptures Gen 1:2 = darkness – FIRST Gen 1:3 = Light is introduced into the darknessROb" Why do you reject Abert Einstein? Darkness does not exist. You claim darkness is naturally first. I say this is bogus. In science darkness is the absence of light, but you say existed first? Can darkness exist naturally? Not in my view. So the earth was in darkness because God refused to allow His light to cover over the earth? Once has to ask why not? Because of sin is the only reason we have in the torah. Without GOD nothing would exist, not even darkness. Not even space, Not even time. Not even matter. DO you agree with this idea? Obviously not. To you darkness exists naturally as does entropy and all kinds of things that are dysfunctional to God. I pose to you that entropy, chaos and disorder do not naturally exist with GOD, that one day we will see a perfectly ordered creation, not a single stone out of place. Darkness was upon the frozen water ball because angels were one the rock, in sin, and God took his power from them, plunging the rock and the angels into darkness. "Let there be light" is simply GOD walking into the vicinity of the frozen watery ball once more. 12) Dave" Yet you teach that your satan is to blame for it all being flawedROb" you have cheek? Your Gnostic theory has GOD intentionally creating matter with flaws already in it (entropy), creating creatures with flaws in them (agents of RA), and subjecting sinless humans to testing (demonstrating that God cannot trust sinless humans to love God perfectly, so they need further testing) When Man sinned, God cursed his creation because of the sin. No different to when angels sinned in heaven, God kicked them out of heaven to earth, and left the earlier creation over earth to become totally in darkness, void and formless. Dave" Scripture is unfolding as God Planned it from the very beginning - God is AbsoluteRob" You never consider SIN as the agent that spoils God's creation do you? Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction "tsarah" 6869, shall not rise up the second time. Bible talks about this happening only ONCE. Dave" Who established the CONTEST of gen 3:14-24?Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. You see this as only a contest? not a controversy over opposing elohiym powers? You also never saw TWO trees in the Eden garden either. You also never saw the moral law as eternal and based on faith forever, the first command is about not supporting another elohiym power. If GOD creates all things, and plans all things, than GOD created all creatures with free will and planned that one day a creature would exercise free will, and sin. Such a thing would cause GOD to react with the decision, causing God to create RA for the first and last time, so other free will creatures can see what sin is about. The possibility of exercising free will, was always designed in God's plan. But God never wanted the love, with risk to rebel, but one day love did. By making angels not have free will, you purposely limit God and his love to his creatures. The closest creatures to God are angels, but you see them as robots. I pity the way you limit love and love's grand design. Dave" Why was the serpent in the garden talking to Eve? Deu 8:2 Jas 1:12These verses you use as reasons why we have an Opposer are completely out of context. These verses come to humans AFTER they have already sinned. I have shown you the moral law existed from all eternity and is based on faith. The first of those laws deals with a false elohiym power. Gen 3:22 defines an elohiym power as a power that knows BOTH good and evil. The only way a creature can know both good and evil, is by sin. In the middle of the garden are TWO trees, telling you immediately there are TWO elohiym powers that know BOTH good and evil. In the next creation, there is only ONE tree in the middle of EDEN, showing us there is only one true elohiym power for all eternity, yet the first moral commandment still remains, as free will remains, but no human will know from experience never to use free will ever again. Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: This verse says GOD is not tempted by RA. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do... This verse says GOD creates RA when required to create RA, when things are not peaceful. You forget to include the context of the need for GOD to create RA. With GOD all things are peaceful, so normally GOD never creates RA. God creates RA only because sinners wish to exercise their free will. Your Gnostic teachings teach GOD intentionally uses RA on purpose, even creating matter with RA in it. This is a bogus idea on your part Dave. The main reason I reject Gnostic writings altogether. One error makes it all uninspired as writings. On the other hand all the writings of the torah are inspired, but for some reason you deny many verses because they challenge your Gnostic writings which you uphold as dear to your heart. I have shown to you using various ways, how the Opposer is opposing God. Since the Opposer cannot overthrow God, as God is more powerful, the Opposer overthrows humans instead, who are the apple of God's eye, by distracting humans from seeking salvation. You agree with this, but do not see this are proof the Opposer is doing a evil thing, only doing what it was designed to do, by God. Hence you do not have an Opposer with free will, and hence does not sin freely as humans do. Nor do you have angels with free will either. Dave" Nope – not directly by God Rob" In my view of court rooms, this is called an accessory to the crime, and makes GOD also guilty of causing humans to experience RA. Again you mock a God of love. Dave" Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. (yester ra)ROb" You even still to Jewish inventions of Hebrew words never written as Hebrew constructs. Such two words side by side never exists in the torah. The word desire here, is the Hebrew word used to mean "covet". The word that records your sinning habits is the Hebrew word "aven". But because Jews do not use this word, Dave does not also. Dave" Who is scriptures deceiver? Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satanas, who deceives the whole world.ROb" How funny you ignore my posts dealing with satanas and satan as grammar words referring to the same word. Even your scholar does not discuss why he thinks satanas is a different word meaning to satan. He only footnotes other scholars to promote a thesis without studying the matter in detail, no reasons given. I am thinking your theology is totally invented and has no solid basis for belief. And any research I supply to you is totally ignored. I think my discussions with you is futile. You have not evidence for Satanas. None whatsoever. Your didn't comment on how Tabor in the first 8 minutes agrees with me, on the concept of Satan, and even lists names of Satan, including titles in the NT, under the same creature. Bingo your entire video does not treat Satanas as a different creature. The Greeks wanted to Name the Opposer, who in Hebrew is a nameless opposer, hence they chose to call the Opposer "satanas". That is the best reason I have discovered why the Greek suffix was added to the stem word. And this evidence is totally ignored by Dave, who has nothing to say. I have tried to find material that supports your view, but can't find any, because no body agrees with your hypothesis. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 13, 2023 16:00:13 GMT -5
Dave posts different word meanings for elohiym Gen 1:1 Jdg 2:3 Hmm – according to you – you cannot tell the difference between thes two applications H430 Context don’t matter – god only means god One gets a capital the other doesn't. Both verses refer to the same elohiym power, the power that knows good and evil.Either they both refer to the same power – or one get a Capital letter and one gets a small letter Which is it Robert – mean something when you speak But not all elohiym power is the same source. You show verses showing two different elohiym powers.Here are two words elohiym and elohiymWhich one gets a capital letter and which one don’t? How do you know Robert? You just said - But not all elohiym power is the same source. You show verses showing two different elohiym powers. How do you know Robert?Sure I agree context tells them apart, OH - 180* flip flop from your Robert method So all this time you have been preaching absolutes here that you do not even believe – do you have any credibility – is everything you tech just bull shit--------------------------------- but Gordon does not use the context in this way, I doubt you even understand what he does3) Rob" Now the Jews blame independent actions of the Opposer in later torah accounts on Zoroastrianism. Doesn't the torah come from GOD, as inspired men were to write as God's message? Why make excuses and invent your own traditions of the Satan? Correct – Your two god controversy is a pagan concept!----------------------- Find a word and fight againt the entire message Rob" Who says I fight against Scripture. "God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. " this is a correct statment, and the reason why the Opposer opposes God, because the Opposer does not want sinners to be saved.- because they are sinnersSo why do you fight against this Judeao-Christan teaching--------------------------------- I present a reason for the Opposer opposing God.Where – you have posted your Ellen White traditions - You have failed to go line by line and prove your satan rebels, hates, or opposes GodYour reason for the archons is to test humans. But why would GOD want to test functional human free will, with a free will that chooses to be dysfunctional? Why do you deny scripture? – God test His people – it is a basic Judeao-Chriatian teachingDave" Again – your only agrument = Scripture is error Rob" Really Dave, must I guess your intent all the time? Can't you write? Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, Why do you deny the NT? Heb 9:27 is speaking about your death, when you die, you face judgement. I am talking about something else, when you are alive, you can ask GOD to save you, snatched as a firebrand from the fire. Can you see the difference here. DO you want a Bible verse? Ps 3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: Are you talking about salvation or judgment - make up your mind----------------------------------------- A Jewish website posts" Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor," Dave posted that the angel serving the Lord, doing a diry job, is NOT functioning as a prosecutor? You seem to go against Jewish views now Dave? Stop Lying – miss-representing me – Mr Honest My words are in total agreement with what you posted Learn to read English10 ) Dave" Your answer only proves you ‘don’t get it’ all you can imagine is biology Question" How does the spirit talk without a mouth? or body parts to emulate speech?11) Dave" Why do you reject even the simplest scriptures Gen 1:2 = darkness – FIRST Gen 1:3 = Light is introduced into the darkness ROb" Why do you reject Abert Einstein? Darkness does not exist. You claim darkness is naturally first. I say this is bogus. Correct – you call scripture – TORAH scripture bogus ------------------------------------- Dave" Why was the serpent in the garden talking to Eve? Deu 8:2 Jas 1:12 These verses you use as reasons why we have an Opposer are completely out of context. These verses come to humans AFTER they have already sinned. Correct – you teach that your satan changed everything agaionst God’s WillThe Greeks wanted to Name the Opposer, who in Hebrew is a nameless opposer, hence they chose to call the Opposer "satanas". That is the best reason I have discovered why the Greek suffix was added to the stem word. And this evidence is totallyu ignored by Dave, who has nothing to say. I ahve tried to find material that supports your view, but can't find any, because no body agrees with your hypothesis. Research into Greek word satanas It came to Latin from Hebrew (שָּׂטָן satan), through Greek (Σατανᾶς satanas) and means enemy, adversary. I notice you do not have the courtesy of posting your source Everything you say is opposite to Jeff Brenner Brenner, Jeff, (unk) Hebrew Words in the Greek New Testament,From: ancient-hebrew.org/semitic-origins/hebrew-words-in-the-greek-new-testament.htm, 1/26/2022 Your didn't comment on how Tabor in the first 8 minutes agrees with me, on the concept of Satan, and even lists names of Satan, including titles in the NT, under the same creature. Bingo your entire video does not treat Satanas as a different creature. OH YES I DID1- Why do you LIE – Jame tabor said nothing in agreement with fallen angels 2- Why do you even need to LIE to defend your teaching? 3- why do you just teach the ‘Catholic Satan Tradition’ is more important than scriptureAt 08:00 min in He was only beginning his verse by verse analysis Why are you afraid you address scripture directly?Each verse discussed – Tabor - I added a summary of his point Dave – Then I added my own comment Robert – Where are your comments proving that his satan god rebels, hates and opposes God Copy and paste it all and add your "Robert respose" to each verse response to each verse Prove to us that your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God This has been your assignment for months now Again – you avoid – fail to man up and prove your point - won't even look at the information I'll not respond to further post from you until you do your assignmentThis is a two way discussion - put up or shut up This time show a little courtesy and respect and pot it to the correct thread
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Post by Dave on Oct 13, 2023 23:09:31 GMT -5
Dave" Scripture is unfolding as God Planned it from the very beginning - God is Absolute Rob" You never consider SIN as the agent that spoils God's creation do you?
Correct - You want to teach that god is stupid and was surprise by the mistake he had made – then he had to change creation to accommodate for these outside powers pushing him around
You teach that God tried to make a tov world but lost control of His own creation your satan changed it all – now it is a flawed world
You teach - Nothing ever died – had sex – or ate until Adam sinned Then all of your world changed – and its satan’s fault
If anything you should blame it on Eve Even then you would be denying that God is absolute
REJECTED – you only make God less than absolute and elevate your satan to godhood
God created everything – it is His creation – it is His Plan and His Will anything less that praise God is rejected! ---------------------------
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do... This verse says GOD creates RA when required to create RA, WHERE? Your assumption – REJECTED ----------------------------
Rob" In my view this is called an accessory to the crime, and makes GOD also guilty of causing humans to experience RA. Again you mock a God of love. Who sentenced man to muth muth – GOD DID IT Gen 3:14-24 – GOD DID IT – why do you deny scripture – one of us is mocking scripture Job – God sent satan to do his worse to Job – GOD DID IT 1Chr 21:1 satan is the anger of the Lord – GOD DID IT The BEAST appeared – who created it – GOD DID IT ----------------------------------
I have shown to you using various ways, how the Opposer is opposing God. Since the Opposer cannot overthrow God, as God is more powerful, Too bad you do not teach this instead you have two gods that are locked in a cosmic struggle that is still raging in the cosmos If you God is more powerful – why does your satan push him around and make him change his creation?
the Opposer overthrows humans instead, who are the apple of God's eye, by distracting humans from seeking salvation. Correct –scripture says - the Beast is the deceiver of the whole world Scripture – never says – your satan rebels, hates, or even opposes God ---------------------------------
Your refusal to answer a direct question = you are unwilling to participate in a two way discussion Go back and use the 23+49 we originally used Or answer Tabors study
Or take your Ellen White satan worship somewhere else You are playing a game here – you are exposed – get real or get lost There is no way you mean what you say - because you will say anything You cannot present a consistant idea - and pretend you cannot read English
Come back when you figure out what you mean
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Post by rob on Oct 14, 2023 6:35:14 GMT -5
youtu.be/lKItbUWnymA A request by Dave:- How and When Did Satan Become the God of this World? by James Tabor I write here his words directly from his speech sometimes comments by Rob my assumptions for his words in "quotes" --------------------------- not about origin of STN god of this world, in Gen 1 YHWH is the GOD of this world so what happened , gigantic shift. in history of the Western world. Paul talking about cosmic rulers of the world.... ---------- Rob" Tabor does not explain why the prince of this world was Satan. Now the prince of the world is Jesus, but He waits until the correct time to set up His kingdom, as the rock that strikes the world of nations, Daniel 4. ---------- Satan Devil Serpent God of this world His angels and servants demons unclean spirits Satan has fallen to the earth, picture of war in heaven, and Satan falls to the earth. Not sure how these beings looked. as human like figures with wings.-------- Rob" Notice Tabor lists titles for Satan, satanas is not one of those titles. Nor is archon. --------- Can become visible and invisible, malak, angel is not good translation. Messenger. Not monsters or appendages humans don't have, Daniel 11, Gabriel described as a glorious "angel", something powerful.
3 books
The origin of Satan / elaine pagels The unseen realm / Michael Heiser The Devil / Philip Almond
Tabor sees Satan as not all literal and real, also not superstition. "Somewhere in between"? -------7:44---------- t ie up main guy first implies that the world is not ruled by God, but "by Satan"? Satan immediately steal "truth" from you Satan waits for an "opportune time" Satan plans and leaves you alone for a while kingdom beginning to collaspe, demons subject to us I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. This refers to his kingdom falling. ---------------10:44------------ One clear thing about Jesus, heals the sick and casts out demons. Luke 11:20 kingdom of God has come upon you. means the rule of God has come upon you. If the "strongman" is ruling the earth. Satan kingdom is beginning to crack ---------rob: Tabor is describing a great controversary where GOD is fighting with the god of this world, to take back the kingdom. Tabor does not make details, I checked his website for more details, but they are lacking. I suspect he does not make details for a reason. --------- Stealing seed, gospel, Devil can confuse people Satan entered in Judas.... Judas becomes an actor of Satan. ruler of this world is cast out, no power over me ruler of the world is judged. ---------------13:47----------- get on the wrong side of this conflict Mark 8:33 Get behind me Satan. Satan demands to have Peter. John 8:44 ye are of the father the devil. he speaks according to his own nature... quote scripture on both sides about free will? -----------------16:40-------------- Acts 13:10 son of the devil Acts 26:18 from power of Satan to God 2 Cor 4:4 god of this world blinded the minds of the unbelievers yielded themselves that Satan can blind them --------------18:08-------------- Rom 16:20 soon crush Satan under your feet Satan can take advantage of weakness married couples to have sexual relations regularly "lest Satan tempt you" lack of self control Satan can come in and suggest things. you can get fooled (angel of light) Satan can appear that way 2 Cor 12:7 an angel allowed to bother Paul, maybe sexual "thorn" "a messemger of Satan" Paul uses the flesh, using talking about a weakness trip Paul makes, but Satan hindered me. 1 Th 2:18 many things that happen are not chance, an obstacle can be fooled and taken over captured to do His will James says resist adversary the devil is Satan, Tabor says ----------26:42------------ Jude 9 , michael fight with devil over Moses church of Satan, where Satan's throne is great dragon and Satan the devil... Rev 12:9 Satan's game is over. Once in highest heaven with elohiym and thrown to earth, short time, and Rev 20, bound for 1000 years and thrown into Lake of Fire.---------- Rob" This is the classic view of the Opposer and his end. --------- Sheol, dark, sleep in dust, rest (not hell, not tortured) on earth are living and breathing No way is this Satan's world Job: prosecutor, pretty good. 29:25 God basically in charge, I go and be an evil spirit. Different view "in OT with Sheol". --------- Rob" Tabor is holding or speaking about Jewish ideas of Satan as a prosecutor and other Jewish views of Satan. His lack of details makes it unclear what his views are. -------- This view holds for a long time. Here is the Hellenistic Dualistic Cosmology, three levels under the earth. Gnostic said you are diamonds in the muck, fallen into the world These different views are developing. -----------------34:19-------------- Golden plates, most ancient find... Born in a cycle of birth and death.... dreadful place, not earth? written in Greek on gold foil, date to 300 AD, words of a soul going to the lower world, to Hades. Who are you and where are you? darkness depths of earth. from heaven alone is my house. my teacher, Jonathan Smith, Hellenistic religion. he coins the idea of locative and the utopian Jesus is a kind of Gnostic redeemer?------ Rob: Tabors use of the word Gnostic is troubling. Does Tabor support Gnostism in general is unclear, as he speaks no further details. ----------------39:44---------------- Tabor's book "Pauls assent to Paradise"- ---------------end of video-------- Dave's comments: James Daniel Tabor is a Biblical scholar and Professor of Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, where he has taught since 1989 and served as Chair from 2004–14. Wikipedia
Today – he is also seen as he go to guy for the Dead Sea Scrolls
Do he and I agree – not 100% - but pretty close As an academic – he just presents the material pro and con Even he admits = he does not support some ideas – and support other ides only partially 00:30 – all the way through God is the creator of the world Now satan is the god of this world So how did this shift happen – THE GREATEST SHIFT in human thought the history of the world
Rob" Pardon me Dave, but you do not see the Opposer as the prince of this world? 2:15 – They (archon) thought they could get rid of Jesus by killing him BUT ACTUALLY – GOD USED THEM as part of God’s Plan Dave - I like it - AgreeRob" I check 2:00 minutes to 2:30 minutes, Tabor does not say this.... DO you have access to the full transcript, of what Tabor actually says, he speaks lots of things and fast, and rarely discusses his material in detail. 3:00 – satan has fallen to the earth Yep – Rev 12:7 – throw down from above – war in heavenly Human like figures – with wings – can appear / dissappearROB: "Yes I agree Tabor says this but you don't like the idea of the Opposer in war in heaven and kicked out of heaven and banished to earth? Your squirmish lasted seconds, not days and years in heaven as I imagine the battle of sinning unfolding. IN fact I do not think Tabor even uses the word sin, not even once. Does not discuss why the angel fell from heaven, or why? Nothing is said about this? Tabor – satan tempted JesusDave – Agree – Jesus was a man just like you and me and fair game to satanBut the sprite within / the inner man = Christ who is God incarnateWho said – it is written – now repeated - cannot tempt God – so go awayProof that Jesus was 100% flesh (yester ra) + 100% Christ the image of God (yester tov)Flesh (yester ra) + Spirit (yester tov)ROB" I would say the Opposer tempted Jesus to break faith, but again your Tabor does not go into details and these details are sadly lacking. You invent details Tabor does not speak about. Tabor – God is not ruling this world - satan is the ruler of this world Jesus is bringing on the Kingdom of God – overthrowing satan’s authority The strong man is ruling this world – but has no power over Christ – the image of GodDave – Agree – God made the world exactly as He Planned – then let it go Animals – are BEAST ruled by (yester ra) self-preservation ans survival of the species The archon are BEAST ruled by (yester ra) Man is stuck in the middle – because we are the creatures that can choose Man = (yester ra) flesh + (yester tov) spiritROB" How can you agree? You fought tooth and nail over me saying the Opposer opposes GOD by ruling the world as a god of this world, Tabor's words. I would not say it like that. The Opposer is no God, or even a god. He is merely an opposer, a prince of the world. The Hebrew word is "sar", though Moses does say that an elohiym rules Israel like a dragon with feeding Israel with breast or SHAD, from which we get shedim, or demons, feeding on doctrines (milk) from the dragon, Rather than drinking milk from the SHadday, whose breast is flowing with wisdom from the Father, a comparison using the poetry similes. Tabor never talks about details. 08:40 - Mar 4:15 These are the ones beside the road where the word is sown. Whenever they hear, satan comes quickly and takes away the word that has been sown in them.Rob" I agree. The Opposer steals truth from humans. Not some prosecutor, not some accuser, more like a thief directly opposing God's apple of His eye, destroying humans. Tabor – satan can steal good information awayDave – 99.99999% Darwin more reasonable – easier to accept – than the just believe it Creationist – whose pseudo-science even drive more educated awayROb" I agree But Notice Dave this creature is called Satan by Tabor, not Satanas as you claim. 09:24 - Luk 10:17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Master, even the demons submit to us in Your name!”
Tabor - demons are associated with sickness / illness by casting out demons – satan’s kingdom is beginning top crumbleDave – I understand what he is saying and building up to – Jesus has the power over this world and the demons BUTROB" I thought you said your archons do not steal truth from humans, only make us distracted? Now you agree to the god of this world, ruling over humans. Tabor does not say how far the god of this world rules over humans, how much does Satan rule over humans? Tabor does not say how much, the details are lacking. Tabor - satan fell from heaven like lightening Originally a reference to Gen 1:2 – but now also the fall of satan’s kingdom here on earth The sacking of satan’s kingdom by Christ – the world viewDave – agree – the worldROb" Again you are adding your spin to Tabor's words, which he does not say, he lacks details. He does not say what your saying.... he does use the term Gnostic though. He does speak of Hellenism changing the view of Shoel. Does that mean the Hebrew view, (GOD"S view) has changed over time? NO, but again Tabor does not speak much, he lacks details. Tabor - one thing you can say about Jesus = a healer + exorcist The kingdom of God is not waiting to come – it already arrived with Christ Let your will be done on earth as in heaven It is a sign that the beginning of the end has begunDave – agree – Tabor speaks the truth - and we can say a whole lot moreROB" I agree But Tabor lacks details in his words. ---------------- This is the same story as 12:40 - Luk 22:3 Then satan entered into Judah,,for 30 pieces of silverROB" I read your words Dave, but you miss what Tabor said " Satan entered in Judas.... Judas becomes an actor of Satan" This suggests to me Satan enters Judas and rules over Judas mind, turning Judas into a puppet on strings or Satan's actor, doing what Satan wants as his will on earth over Jesus. " get on the wrong side of this conflict Mark 8:33 Get behind me Satan". Same idea with Peter, Satan suggests things to Peter, and Jesus rebukes Satan for suggesting this to Peter. Tabor adds this "quote scripture on both sides about free will?" suggests to me Tabor is unwilling to say Satan has free will. He sees scripture unclear on this idea? Tabor – 1 3:52 – the powers of the world are being overthrown – and behind these powers are evil forces – visible and invisibleDave – Yep – Eph 6:12 powers / archon – our real struggleRob " Tabor does not use the term "archon" not speaks any details/ Tabor – Peter is trying to protect Jesus Christ from the Cross – Peter is on the wrong side of the plan of salvation Peter doesn’t understand that it is the Cross and the Resurrection is God’s PlanDave – correct – peter crime here = ignorance NOT satanic possessionRob" Hmm? so little from Tabor's words " get on the wrong side of this conflict" Mark 8:33 What does this mean? I think Tabor is saying Peter was entering into the conflict between Satan and Jesus, is a wrong manner, saying Jesus should die. Again Tabor lacks details, much details, in fact we have discussed much details, even myself talking about why Jesus died, that no religion understands, not even my own denomination. I would agree not satan possession, but listening to Satan ruling Peter's mind at that time. a conflict over which ruler to listen to. ----------------------- Tabor - Man has the same nature as the devilDave – yep – both beast / flesh – both (yester ra)Rob records Tabors words carefully " f ather of lies, he speaks according to his own nature " "15:10 "you have that nature as well" Are people predestined, arhh? is it their choice? NT does not always get into that? that's why theologians have argued for 2000 years, Calvanism A kind of predestined idea... dead sea scrolls also.... it follows the book of ecoch? not so sure in the NT? ....argued about free will and determinism... you can quote scriptures on both sidesDave – I will pick a side You can quote scripture on both sides because both are true Reincarnation is not for everyone – but does exist for someROB" I see. I see nothing in Scripture about Reincarnation, but this topic is off our study here. I do not think man meaning mankind, has the same nature as the devil, but some humans might, especially those of us who sin intentionally as wicked people. Tabor - Man has the same nature as the devilI would not agree Tabor says this. " you have that nature as well" means what exactly? He does not add details, not suggest Satan sins and man also sins, so these details are lacking, so I do not agree we know for sure what Tabor is saying here/ -------------------- Tabor – The Gospel of Paul – open their eyes from DARKNESS – to see the LIGHT – then they get to escape the power of satan – and are forgiven Turning from the power of sin – so sin doesn’t rule themRob" I listened again, HMM? you have a good listening ability Dave I agree Tabor speaks the Paul says the gospel is presented so humans are turned from darkness to light, so that sin no longer rules over them. Dave" WOW – no wonder Robert accuses Paul of being a GnosticROb" I do not say this. Tabor says " they get to escape the power of satan" your words from listening too. I thought you said the Opposer (Satan) does not rule over humans, but Tabor says Satan does rule over humans, and the sinning they do is proof of this ruling function. But Again Tabor lacks details, it's a passing statement at best. Tabor - God has blinded the understanding of the unbeliever – God did it It is the hand of God Then he says – satan is able to blind them People who don’t get it – can't really see it (Robert) BUT – God is opening their minds - an awakening Another reference to predestination and those who are call receive a reward in heavenDave – Agree - ROB" So Satan blinds humans so they cannot see truth, nor wish to seek salvation and truth. You agree to this, and so do I But this title is the function of a unnamed opposer of God, who is god of this world, as Tabor says Satan, Not Satanas as you claim with archons as you claim. Tabor says they are messengers or angels fallen from heaven. Human like figures with wings, visible and also invisible. 18:50 - R om 16:20 Now the God of shalom will soon crush satan under your feet. Tabor – a reference to Gen 3:15 – soonDave – AgreeRob Agree. Notice Tabor is speaking of Satan, not Satanas. ------------------ Tabor – sexual immorality – delivered over to satan but can still repent and be savedWe have victory over satan because we are NOT ignorant (in darkness) abut the Reality of the Archon – satanas – The BEAST satan can take advantage of a weakness Even tho we are post Jesus – Paul still applies the Law of MosesRob" Yes the torah rules still apply to us living today. Tabor - Married couple are not to refuse sex to one another – because without it – humans will cheat- physically or mentally satan is waiting for a crack – an opening – to attack you (by feeding that desire)Dave – Agree – within reasons and fairnessROb" Agree Tabor – satan disguises himself as an angel of LIGHTDave – “ DECEPTION” – it is what the archon do – deceive the whole worldRob" Tabor says Satan deceives as an angel of light, not some Satanas, nor does Tabor use the word archon. He uses the word angel. ------------- Tabor – Paul has all these visions and revelations – BUT – to keep him from being too elated about it – a messenger of satan harassed himDave – Yep – Hebrew satan in the NT G4566 – a remnder from the prosecutor / accuser to be goodROb" you had to throw in something Tabor does NOT say. He speaks of Satan harassed him, maybe sexual temptation, not some mix up over word meanings like Satan and Satanas, as you claim. ----------------- Tabor – the wiles of the devilDave – Gen 3:1 the most subtal (arum)ROb" Tabor spends 1 second on " wiles of the devil" You are adding things Tabor does not say. An arum creature has to know both function and dysfunction, hence possess free will, but you have your creature without free will, a robotic agent of RA only. SO this cannot be an arum creature. Further your creature is a satanas creature, not the Satan as Tabor is speaking about. ----------------- Tabor – works of the devil = the devils long term plansDave – David Ike – Just outside out field of view – are entities that are anything but human – that have been manipulating this world from the outside for eons – some call them demonic – some call them the serpent race – islam calls them the Jinn Dave – the first centuries and authors of the Gospels called them archonRob- Moses termed them "elohiym" and later "shad" and later poetry pictures of snakes and dragons. Deutronomy 32, Moses song. Why don't you use what Moses says about them? ----------------------- Tabor – The synagogue of satan – trust in the worldDave – Yep – choosing world over GodRob" I checked 26:05, Tabor does not say "trust in the world" he passes over the verse quickly NOT adding details. You are making up stuff, which is your right, but you cannot say Tabor is adding support to you here. Tabor is not. ---------------- 28:57 – Hebrew satan is like heavens lawyer for the prosecution 29:09 – He makes a connection between the prosecutor and JobRob " I thought you don't like Satan as a prosecutor in Job? Does Tabor see Satan in Job as a good angel doing a dirty job, or as the same Satan he is speaking about for over 20 minutes? ----------------- 29:50 – as you move into the Hellenistic world 00:30 – all the way through the OT God is the creator of the world Now satan is the god of this world So how did this shift happen – THE GREATEST SHIFT in human thought the history of the worldROb" Does Tabor explain this question? No I don't think so He adds the hebrew view, than a Greek view and today a confusing view. 33:50 – he presents my teachingRob" No he is not he is speaking of Greek influence over the Hebrew. The true truth of God does not change. Dave" 10 heavens / dimensions – 7 heaven / dimensions above – 3= 3 here – physical realityROb" Greek idea, not Hebrew idea. Not detailed by Tabor anyway. Dae" The archon have agents on all 7 heavensROb" Tabor does not speak of this. Dave" Gnostic the Beast appeared then created for himself 7 the 12 – that made the 72 Yes – there is a correlationROb" Tabor does not speak of this. 33:58 – THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FIND FROM ANCIENT HISTORY The artifact that changed our worldROb" How does it change the world? Dae" 34:45 – the idea of reincarnation ROb" Just because Tabor says this does not make this true in the torah. ----------------- Dave's summary In all of this comprehensive review of biblical satan Zero mention of Exk 28 or Isa 14
OR – the idea that satan rebels, hates, and opposes God
Or – the idea of two equal gods locked in a cosmic struggle over God’s right to rule the universeRob- Tabor said he would not speak of origin Tabor says the god of this world rules over man Tabor says Jesus came to begin to destoy the Satan's kingdom on earth. Now I read differently to you Dave. Shalom ==============Postscript========= Dave" Copy and paste it all and add your "Robert respose" to each verse response to each verse Prove to us that your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God This has been your assignment for months nowRob" Oh so now you agree with Tabor, that Satanas is really another name for Satan, both creatures are the same being? Than I could continue with studies proving Satan opposes GOD. As Tabor explained, if Jesus came to bring down the kingdom of Satan, "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning" than there is your proof among many proofs. Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan. So Satan cannot be a servant of God at all. Dave" I'll not respond to further post from you until you do your assignment This is a two way discussion - put up or shut upRob" I already said I am waiting for you to prove your Satanas creature is a different creature to Satan. Because all NT rests upon you proving your case. Tabor says Satan is the same creature in the NT, no mention of Satanas anywhere from his lips. ====================== Rob posted previously You never consider SIN as the agent that spoils God's creation do you?
Dave replies Correct - You want to teach that god is stupid and was surprise by the mistake he had made – then he had to change creation to accommodate for these outside powers pushing him around.
Rob" Why the mock? Surely God is a parent and we humans are his children. Than love is a risk. Free will that chooses another option is termed sin. How is this pushing around God, when free will was created by God. In fact free will is a part of love. It's no mistake, it the risk involved in making love perfect. Perfect love includes the possibility of rebellion. A God of love is challenged by rebellion, but this is a activity requiring love all the same, even more so than sinless creatures that love. God has planned through this kind of "love" as much as the other options of love, and thus nothing is not unknown to God. I really don'y get you or your mocking. God is always above everything including missing His powers of love. Dave" You teach - Nothing ever died – had sex – or ate until Adam sinned Then all of your world changed – and its satan’s faultROb" see you mock, make sport of me, misquote me. Dave" REJECTED – you only make God less than absolute and elevate your satan to godhoodRob explain how a rebellious child is the parent's fault, or makes the parent change his love towards the child? SUppose Dave, you have a rebellious child (now adult) in your personal life, explain to me how your love changed when your daughter sins against you? The daughter says this or that, does not make you guilty of being a bad parent? Nor are you guilty of any lesser love towards her. Nor does the rebellious daughter elevate her above you, for you are her dad. I don't get you. You say weird things. Love does not change if a rebellious daughter sins against you. If anything your love increases when your daughter sins against you and you as a parent love her more, not less, hoping she will repent and come back to you. I just don't get you, sorry. Dave" God created everything – it is His creation – it is His Plan and His WillROb" Yes indeed. A parent loves his daughter. As a parent you created free will with love. Love has a risk. True love is about risk. Risk of rejection. Otherwise love in not love. It is true as you say the prodigal that returned came back with more love than the one who did not sin. He was ever grateful for his dad's love. ----------------- Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do... RobPP" This verse says GOD creates RA when required to create RA,Dave" WHERE? Your assumption – REJECTEDRob" Let's break up the verse into it's contrasting parts Isa 45:7 I form the light, I create darkness I make peace, I create dysfunction. I GOD do. Notice light and peace are both natural and functional aspects of God's nature. Darkness and dysfunction are therefore not natural and need to be forcefully wrought into existence by creating them. Look at the fuller passage context Isa 45:1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; How is Cyrus God's anointed, at his right hand? Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, How can darkness "choshek" be a treasure? Isa 45:4 ...I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me Wow God calls this unlikely fellow to be his anointed and at his right hand take over wicked kingdoms. Isa 45:5 ¶ I am the LORD, ....though thou hast not known me: Wow, God does what God likes and calls who He likes.. even so called dysfunctional men like Cyrus? Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. to prove I can do anything, like make a dysfunctional man like Cyrus, do good things for me, saith the Lord. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do So like Cyrus, who is dysfunctional and unknown by God, Cyrus becomes functional and is known by GOD. This is the context of the passage. God is always in control. God can make things dysfunctional become functional.
Now when God says his creation was very functional, how can you say it included RA, things that were dysfunctional, but God declared it functional regardless? We both ponder Confusion I know, why O Lord do you speak in parables and in poetry as things hidden from man's eyes? -------------------- Dave" Who sentenced man to muth muth – GOD DID IT Gen 3:14-24 – GOD DID IT – why do you deny scripture – one of us is mocking scripture Job – God sent satan to do his worse to Job – GOD DID IT 1Chr 21:1 satan is the anger of the Lord – GOD DID IT The BEAST appeared – who created it – GOD DID ITRob" I see your point a bit... Consider Moses song, a summary of 40 years putting up with Israel. De 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Notice GOD tells Moses that Israel with go whoring to another elohiym power, after Moses dies. How did God know this with certainty? God reads future sinning BEFORE it happens. ( so again I ask you why does God require an angel to assist God with prosecuting sinners? He doesn't) And what does Moses do De 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? De 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.Notice Israel work of her hands causes her sins, not God and not some Opposer, but free will takes its course. That is not to say agency does not tempt free will, because the Opposer opposes humans and helps them to sin, and forget the Lord. De 32:10 ..God kept Israel as the apple of his eye. So any opposing elohiym power attacking his creation is attacking the apple of God's own eye, because God cares for his humans as much as God cares for the sparrow that falls to the ground. So any opposer opposing humans, are therefore also opposing God. And any human who sins is also opposing God, either ignorantly or intentionally, both sins have different words in the Hebrew, chata and pesha. De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, Here the false elohiym power is described as shad, a breast like power feeding false milky doings to Israel. Later Moses adds snake and dragon poetry similes to help hide and thus identify the elohiym power. Dave asked Rob why Moses does not tell readers the elohiym power is headed by the Ha-Satan? If you make the torah plain and easy to read, what would a secular scribe to the sacred holy writings? He would change them out of spite. So poetry hides the truth from preying scribes and makes things hard to fathom. Dave" God sent satan to do his worse to Job – GOD DID ITrob " I would not say it like that... Jews claim the Ha-Satan is a servant to God and has no independence? Was Baalam a servant to the Lord? Yes, he did what he was told to do, bless Israel. So by your reckoning, Baalam is a good human, doing a good job? No Baalam is a wicked prophet, coherced to bless Israel, against his own natural desires. God often uses even wicked people to do his will. Does not mean the wicked people are servants to the Lord. Dave" If you God is more powerful – why does your satan push him around?Rob" Because other sinless creatures are watching love and loving functions in action from God who is love. Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Who are these kings that behold the reigner over prince of Tyre? They are other sons of God, who remain sinless. Dave" Scripture – never says – your satan rebels, hates, or even opposes GodRob" Let's test you premise:- Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. If this is a man, how can a man become as high as the Father in heaven, both in loving and might, and sinlessness? NO this boastful claim is about those who covet the Father's ruling powers, not His nature to love. So what man establishes a religion with a Father god on earth claiming to be like the Father in heaven, that would be opposing the Father surely? Hab 1:11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god. The word "god" here is "eloah" a word meaning "chief deity" or in this context a "Father god". There appears in the end of time a Father god on earth, claiming to be like the Father in heaven. Such a power opposes God by forcing humans to adopt its religious doctrines. Dave" Go back and use the 23+49 we originally usedRob" I can't until you prove to me your Satanas creature exists separately to Satan. Not even Tabor speaks of a Satanas creature, only a Satan creature all the way through the NT. So your theory is not supported very well by Tabor, if at all? SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 14, 2023 11:25:31 GMT -5
my assumptions for his words in "quotes"Why do you assume – quote him - Why do you need to deny what is said and reinvent it in your assumed words--------------------------- god of this world, in Gen 1 YHWH is the GOD of this world so what happened , gigantic shift. in history of the Western world. Paul talking about cosmic rulers of the world.… Correct – how did the change in belief happened How did Hebrew satan – a servant of God – become God’s enemy That is his point – lets see if you understand his point or not---------- Satan Devil Serpent God of this world His angels and servants demons unclean spirits Satan has fallen to the earth, picture of war in heaven, and Satan falls to the earth. Not sure how these beings looked. as human like figures with wings. Rob" Notice Tabor lists titles for Satan, satanas is not one of those titles. Nor is archon.Yep – you want to argue words --------- Can become visible and invisible, malak, angel is not good translation. Messenger. Not monsters or appendages humans don't have, Daniel 11, Gabriel described as a glorious "angel", something powerful. 3 books The origin of Satan / elaine pagels – Yes you should read herThe unseen realm / Michael Heiser -Y es you should read it - you would hate this bookThe Devil / Philip Almond – don’t know itTabor sees Satan as not all literal and real, also not superstition. "Somewhere in between"? Correct – somewhere inbetween-------7:44---------- rob: Tabor is describing a great controversary where GOD is fighting with the god of this world, to take back the kingdom. Tabor does not make details, I checked his website for more details, but they are lacking. I suspect he does not make details for a reason.Oops – your Great Controversy is between two god in the cosmos for God's right to rule the universe Tabor is describing The Creator – vrs the god of this world – the BEAST--------- Rob" Tabor is holding or speaking about Jewish ideas of Satan as a prosecutor and other Jewish views of Satan. His lack of details makes it unclear what his views are. His views are of Hebrew satan as a prosecutor - DUH-----------------34:19-------------- Golden plates, most ancient find... Born in a cycle of birth and death.... dreadful place, not earth? written in Greek on gold foil, date to 300 AD, words of a soul going to the lower world, to Hades. Who are you and where are you? darkness depths of earth. from heaven alone is my house. my teacher, Jonathan Smith, Hellenistic religion. he coins the idea of locative and the utopian Jesus is a kind of Gnostic redeemer? ------ Rob: Tabors use of the word Gnostic is troubling. Does Tabor support Gnostism in general is unclear, as he speaks no further details. Why do you think Gnosticism is a bad word Jame, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas – why do you call them heretics?Dave's comments: James Daniel Tabor is a Biblical scholar and Professor of Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, where he has taught since 1989 and served as Chair from 2004–14. Wikipedia Today – he is also seen as he go to guy for the Dead Sea Scrolls Does he and I agree – not 100% - but pretty close As an academic – he just presents the material pro and con Even he admits = he does not support some ideas – and support other ides only partially 00:30 – all the way through God is the creator of the world Now satan is the god of this world So how did this shift happen – THE GREATEST SHIFT in human thought the history of the worldRob" Pardon me Dave, but you do not see the Opposer as the prince of this world?STOP IT! - right now - LIE – make up LIES – I am sick of it Physical creation is the domain / kingdom of the archon-------------------------------------------- 2:15 – They (archon) thought they could get rid of Jesus by killing him BUT ACTUALLY – GOD USED THEM as part of God’s Plan Dave - I like it - Agree Rob" I check 2:00 minutes to 2:30 minutes, Tabor does not say this.…1:56 – talking about the cosmic rulers OF THE WORLD – not the Romans 2:10 – if they knew – they would not have crucified Jesus THEY GOT FOOLED – they thought they could get rid of Jesus by killing him 2:15 – but actually the suffering and the resurrection was the triamph DO you have access to the full transcript, of what Tabor actually says, he speaks lots of things and fast, and rarely discusses his material in detail. You need to pause and replay if you do not know what is said – Mr serious – with all your esxcuses3:00 – satan has fallen to the earth Yep – Rev 12:7 – throw down from above – war in heavenly Human like figures – with wings – can appear / dissappear ROB: "Yes I agree Tabor says this but you don't like the idea of the Opposer in war in heaven and kicked out of heaven and banished to earth?Lies and more liesI teach Rev 12:7 = Gen 1:3 Just how hard is it for your god to separate the Light from the Darkness- you teach god is still in that conflict Your squirmish lasted seconds, not days and years in heaven as I imagine the battle of sinning unfolding. Correct – my God is absolute Who can oppose God – who can change God – NO ONE!Tabor – satan tempted Jesus Dave – Agree – Jesus was a man just like you and me and fair game to satan But the sprite within / the inner man = Christ who is God incarnate Who said – it is written – now repeated - cannot tempt God – so go away Proof that Jesus was 100% flesh (yester ra) + 100% Christ the image of God (yester tov) Flesh (yester ra) + Spirit (yester tov) ROB" I would say the Opposer tempted Jesus Correct – Jesus is the Son of Man – tempted as all men areYou invent details Tabor does not speak about. My post is my opinion – where have I misrepresented Mr Tabor?Tabor – God is not ruling this world - satan is the ruler of this world Jesus is bringing on the Kingdom of God – overthrowing satan’s authority The strong man is ruling this world – but has no power over Christ – the image of God Dave – Agree – God made the world exactly as He Planned – then let it go Animals – are BEAST ruled by (yester ra) self-preservation ans survival of the species The archon are BEAST ruled by (yester ra) Man is stuck in the middle – because we are the creatures that can choose Man = (yester ra) flesh + (yester tov) spirit ROB" How can you agree? You fought tooth and nail over me saying the Opposer opposes GOD by ruling the world as a god of this world, STOP IT – satan does not oppose God The Beast is the ruler of physical creation – it is his kingdom – it is his domain
Why must you misrepresent others – ME Do you think your funny? Or cute – or are you just a LIER ------------------------------------------- Tabor's words. I would not say it like that. The Opposer is no God, or even a god. WHAT! - Your Ellen White Controversy is between two gods 08:40 Tabor – satan can steal good information away Dave – 99.99999% Darwin more reasonable – easier to accept – than the just believe it Creationist – whose pseudo-science even drive more educated away ROb" I agree LIE – more LIES – your most favorite teaching in the world is DON PATTON You have all his videos – you present him and the Creation Institute as gospel09:24 - Luk 10:17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Master, even the demons submit to us in Your name!” Tabor - demons are associated with sickness / illness by casting out demons – satan’s kingdom is beginning top crumble Dave – I understand what he is saying and building up to – Jesus has the power over this world and the demons BUT ROB" I thought you said your archons do not steal truth from humans, only make us distracted? Now you agree to the god of this world, ruling over humans. There you go – misrepresent and lie and why this conversation is so much fun – satan disciple---------------- This is the same story as 12:40 - Luk 22:3 Then satan entered into Judah,,for 30 pieces of silver ROB" I read your words Dave, but you miss what Tabor said "Satan entered in Judas.... Judas becomes an actor of Satan" This suggests to me Satan enters Judas and rules over Judas mind, turning Judas into a puppet on strings or Satan's actor, doing what Satan wants as his will on earth over Jesus. Correct – you think satan possess everybody Man is not able to be greedy by himself according to you "get on the wrong side of this conflict Mark 8:33 Get behind me Satan". Same idea with Peter, Satan suggests things to Peter, and Jesus rebukes Satan for suggesting this to Peter. Peter is trying to protect the life of Jesus – are you teaching your satan possessed Peter to save Jesus According to you – Peter is not able to care about Jesus unless he is possessed by satanMy teaching – Jewish teaching – NT teaching – we are to care about one another – love one anotherTabor – Peter is trying to protect Jesus Christ from the Cross – Peter is on the wrong side of the plan of salvation Peter doesn’t understand that it is the Cross and the Resurrection is God’s Plan Dave – correct – peter crime here = ignorance NOT satanic possession Rob" Hmm? so little from Tabor's words What about the passage is so confusing for you "get on the wrong side of this conflict" Mark 8:33 What does this mean? More pretend ignorance from you – seriously you cannot understand Mr Tabor I think Tabor is saying Peter was entering into the conflict between Satan and Jesus, is a wrong manner, saying Jesus should die. What is this – just make up stuff – you assume he said something different"get on the wrong side of this conflict" Mark 8:33 What does this mean? God’s Plan = John 3:16 – suffering – Cross - Resurrection Peter’s Plan = protect Jesus from harm Not man’s (Peter’s) Will – God’s WillPeter voiced his concern for the safety of Jesus You have to make it into some sick satanic possession ------------------------------- Tabor adds this "quote scripture on both sides about free will?" suggests to me Tabor is unwilling to say Satan has free will. He sees scripture unclear on this idea? Nope – he is an academic – his personal beliefs should never effect his teaching – he is just present the facts Tabor – 13:52 – the powers of the world are being overthrown – and behind these powers are evil forces – visible and invisible Dave – Yep – Eph 6:12 powers / archon – our real struggle Rob " Tabor does not use the term "archon" not speaks any details/
Yep – argue words So you deny that Eph 6:12 and the teaching that there are satans and devils wanting to mess with you – they must all be error There are NO visible or invisible powers arrayed against man Am I misrepresenting you – it is what your claiming----------------------- Tabor - Man has the same nature as the devil Dave – yep – both beast / flesh – both (yester ra)Tabor - Man has the same nature as the devil I would not agree Tabor says this. "you have that nature as well" means what exactly? (yester ra)-------------------- Tabor – The Gospel of Paul – open their eyes from DARKNESS – to see the LIGHT – then they get to escape the power of satan – and are forgiven Turning from the power of sin – so sin doesn’t rule them Rob" I listened again, HMM? you have a good listening ability Dave I agree Tabor speaks the Paul says the gospel is presented so humans are turned from darkness to light, so that sin no longer rules over them. Dave" WOW – no wonder Robert accuses Paul of being a Gnostic ROb" I do not say this. Paul is contained with the Nag Hammadi – you call it all Gnostic error Rome has you convinced that the authors of the NT wrote inspired scripture and heresy at the same time------------------ Tabor – satan disguises himself as an angel of LIGHT Dave – “DECEPTION” – it is what the archon do – deceive the whole world Rob" Tabor says Satan deceives as an angel of light, not some Satanas, nor does Tabor use the word archon. He uses the word angel.Are you arguing against the message or just words?----------------- Tabor – works of the devil = the devils long term plans Dave – David Ike – Just outside out field of view – are entities that are anything but human – that have been manipulating this world from the outside for eons – some call them demonic – some call them the serpent race – Islam calls them the Jinn Dave – the first centuries and authors of the Gospels called them archon Rob- Moses termed them "elohiym" and later "shad" and later poetry pictures of snakes and dragons. Deutronomy 32, Moses song. Why don't you use what Moses says about them? Dragon – the serpent race – shedim – Jinn – demons – principalities – devils – boogy man – the deceiver – the serpent - the Prince of Darkness, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, Baphomet, Lord of the Flies, the Antichrist, Father of Lies, Moloch or simply Satan. Which words do you want to argue I bet I can find 1000s of different names for the BEAST but then you would even be more confused as to who we are discussingJust how many gods do you bow to? There are 100s of names for the Creator – how can you Robert tell them all apart - which one do you pray to?Just which words do you want to argueJehovah – HYWY – Adoni – Lord – God – father Savior – Creator – Elohiym – FATHER, Abba, LORD MASTER, THE BEGINNING AND END, Alpha and Omega, THE ANCIENT OF DAYS, Attiyq Youm, THE ANOINTED ONE, Christos, LIVING GOD, El Chay, THE GOD WHO GAVE YOU BIRTH, El Chuwl, THE GOD OF KNOWLEDGE, El Deah, THE GOD, MOST HIGH, El Elyon, THE MIGHTY GOD, El Gibhor, THE EVERLASTING GOD, El Olam, THE GOD WHO SEES, El Roi, GOD, ALMIGHTY, El Shaddai, GOD WITH US, Immanuel, THE SELF-EXISTENT ONE, Jehovah-Bore, THE LORD OUR PROVIDER, Jehovah-Jireh’ THE LORD WHO SANCTIFIES, Jehovah-M'Kaddesh, THE LORD OUR BANNER, Jehovah-Nissi, THE LORD OUR HEALER, Jehovah-Rapha, THE LORD OUR SHEPHERD, Jehovah-Rohi, THE LORD OF HOSTS, Jehovah-Sabbaoth, THE LORD IS PEACE, Jehovah-Shalom, THE LORD IS THERE, Jehovah-Shammah, THE LORD OUR, RIGHTEOUSNESS, Jehovah-Tsidkenu, THE LORD OUR ROCK, Jehovah-Tsuri, THE LORD SAVES, Jesus, THE WORD, Logos, OUR DWELLING PLACE, Ma'on, You just want to play a word games with scripture Such respect for the word of God----------------------- 28:57 – Hebrew satan is like heavens lawyer for the prosecution 29:09 – He makes a connection between the prosecutor and Job Does Tabor see Satan in Job as a good angel doing a dirty job, or as the same Satan he is speaking about for over 20 minutes?OH – even you notice – Hebrew satan of the OT is different – different function – different role within creation OT Hebrew satan = an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord THEN THERE IS A PARADIGM SHIFT – the biggest in human thoughout and history NT satanas is different – different role – different funtion NT BEAST is the deceiver of the whole world ----------------- 29:50 – as you move into the Hellenistic world 00:30 – all the way through the OT God is the creator of the world Now satan is the god of this world So how did this shift happen – THE GREATEST SHIFT in human thought the history of the world ROb" Does Tabor explain this question? No I don't think so Why don’t you understand his point? Either you did not listen – or pay attention OR – you don’t want to understand How did Hebrew satan – an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord – change – into your Catholic Satan?He adds the hebrew view, - Hebrew satan G4566than a Greek view - a NT view satanas G4567and today a confusing view. - because you cannot tell the differenceBINGO - His entire point 33:50 – he presents my teaching Rob" No he is not Then you do not know my view after all this timeDave" 10 heavens / dimensions – 7 heaven / dimensions above – 3= 3 here – physical reality ROb" Greek idea, not Hebrew idea. Not detailed by Tabor anyway. OH Yes it is – Hebrew Kabbalah – 7 heaven above – God is in the 7th heaven Oh Yes it is – string theory physics - 10D Dae" The archon have agents on all 7 heavens ROb" Tabor does not speak of this.Yes – he does - 33:30 – discussing neo-platenism – Christian overlay on the Greek view – Satan rules in heaven (not earth) but he has minions in all the 7 heaven down to earth – and then also earth And I disagreed with him didn’t I?Yes – there are 7 Heaven above Yes – God throne is in the highest heaven (highest energy level) Man is on earth – the lowest heaven The archon are on earth and the invisible dimension all around us The archon are on earth and around earth – planets – space – invisible layer above us Dave" Gnostic the Beast appeared then created for himself 7 the 12 – that made the 72 Yes – there is a correlation ROb" Tabor does not speak of this.Tabor speaks of satan and his minionThe Beast has his messengers (archon) Rev 12:7-10 Is it the word minion that confuses you? Are you just stumbling over words so you do not have to understand33:58 – THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FIND FROM ANCIENT HISTORY The artifact that changed our world ROb" How does it change the world? Dae" 34:45 – the idea of reincarnation ROb" Just because Tabor says this does not make this true in the torah. Yes – Robert – reincarnation is 100% a Jewish teaching Every Jew sets an extra plate at the seder meal for Elijah Predestination is both Jewish and NT ChristianEph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ==============Postscript========= Dave" Copy and paste it all and add your "Robert respose" to each verse response to each verse Prove to us that your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God This has been your assignment for months nowRob" Oh so now you agree with Tabor, that Satanas is really another name for Satan, both creatures are the same being? Than I could continue with studies proving Satan opposes GOD.WOW – way to miss the entire point of his presentationWhy the shift in paradigmWhy did satan stop being God’s servant and become God’s opponent And the shift in paradigm happened when Rome took over the faith And it happened when Rome Hellenized the faith As Tabor explained, if Jesus came to bring down the kingdom of Satan, Yep – Jesus came to rescue us from the WORLD"I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning" Yep – Rev 12:7 – ejected - thrown to earththere is your proof among many proofs. That you can read scripture – cool So where is your proof that your satan rebels, hates , and opposes GodJesus came to destroy the works of Satan. So Satan cannot be a servant of God at all.Absolute correct and the entire pointNT satanas – the BEAST – is NOT Hebrew satan NT satanas is the prince / ruler / master of this physical world====================== You never consider SIN as the agent that spoils God's creation do you? Dave replies Correct - You want to teach that god is stupid and was surprise by the mistake he had made – then he had to change creation to accommodate for these outside powers pushing him around. Rob" Why the mock? If I present your teaching back to you – you call it mockingSurely God is a parent and we humans are his children. Than love is a risk. Free will that chooses another option is termed sin. How is this pushing around God, when free will was created by God. In fact free will is a part of love. It's no mistake, it the risk involved in making love perfect. Perfect love includes the possibility of rebellion. So confused Mr Flip Flop – Did God know what His creation would do or NOT? I say God knew because God created it Did God Plan His creation the way He Willed it – or did another force change it?Either the world is as God Willed / Planned to be rediscovered by man Rom 1:19-20 / Psa 19:2 Or your satan changed it – vegeterian sharks – remember your own teaching Your satan single handedly went around and rewrote the DNA of all plants and animals Don Patton – Creation Institute – your favorite guy! --------------------------- Dave" You teach - Nothing ever died – had sex – or ate until Adam sinned Then all of your world changed – and its satan’s fault ROb" see you mock, make sport of me, misquote me. Do you deny the teaching of Don Patton YES or NO Vegetarian sharks – or God’s creation – pick one---------------------------- Dave" REJECTED – you only make God less than absolute and elevate your satan to godhood Rob explain how You say - God lost control of His tov creation and Ellen White makes satan a god - DUHDave" God created everything – it is His creation – it is His Plan and His Will ROb" Yes indeed. A parent loves his daughter. As a parent you created free will with love. Love has a risk. True love is about risk. Risk of rejection. Otherwise love in not love. It is true as you say the prodigal that returned came back with more love than the one who did not sin. He was ever grateful for his dad's love. THUS – THE WHOLE PURPOSE FOR THE CONTESTTo seek the Jobs – the prodigal Sons - God seeking true companionship – with man Angels were created to serve and praise – no big deal – it is how they are created The BEAST is created to devour and consume / deceive – no big deal – it is how they were created Man – is the creature that can choose No one made us – it was our Free Will choice Man is the creature that – makes God smile / happy / proud - that is a big deal Man is the creature that gives God Divine Joy THUS – THE WHOLE PURPOSE FOR THE CONTESTGod’s Plan from the very beginning The reason God created in the first place- to reveal Himself So His creation could find their way home – back to Him ----------------- This is the context of the passage. God is always in control. God can make things dysfunctional become functional. Too bad you don’t teach this You claim God made a tov world only – your feel Good God only does tov – now you say he can make thing dysfunctionalYou are contradicting yourself – and I’m sick of itMean what you say – or go away ------------------------------------- Dave" Who sentenced man to muth muth – GOD DID IT Gen 3:14-24 – GOD DID IT – why do you deny scripture – one of us is mocking scripture Job – God sent satan to do his worse to Job – GOD DID IT 1Chr 21:1 satan is the anger of the Lord – GOD DID IT The BEAST appeared – who created it – GOD DID IT Rob" I see your point a bit... Consider Moses song, a summary of 40 years putting up with Israel. Notice GOD tells Moses that Israel with go whoring to another elohiym power, after Moses dies. How did God know this with certainty? God reads future sinning BEFORE it happens. Except Eve – you teach - that was God’s mistake according to you – so God had to change all of His creation to accommodate His mistake-------------------------------------------------- So any opposing elohiym power attacking his creation is attacking the apple of God's own eye, because God cares for his humans as much as God cares for the sparrow that falls to the ground. So any opposer opposing humans, are therefore also opposing God.When God cursed the ground – God was opposing Himself? When God established the Contest of Gen 3 – God was opposing Himself When God opposed Sodom and Gomorrah – God was opposing Himself When God sent a lying spirit to Ahab – God was opposing Himself God opposed Balaam – so God opposed Himself You oppose me – so why do you oppose God?Again - back to your circular argument - a=b so b=c and you can contradict yourself--------------------------- De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, Here the false elohiym power is described as shad, a breast like power feeding false milky doings to Israel. You claim this is Hebrew satan Later Moses adds snake and dragon poetry similes to help hide and thus identify the elohiym power. And you claim this is Hebrew satanDave asked Rob why Moses does not tell readers the elohiym power is headed by the Ha-Satan? If you make the torah plain and easy to read, what would a secular scribe to the sacred holy writings? He would change them out of spite. So poetry hides the truth from preying scribes and makes things hard to fathom. So why can’t you see the truth – all you see is Ellen White’s satan godDave" God sent satan to do his worse to Job – GOD DID IT rob " I would not say it like that... Jews claim the Ha-Satan is a servant to God and has no independence? God often uses even wicked people to do his will. Does not mean the wicked people are servants to the Lord. So if God uses you – you are not helping God facilitate His Will on earth?The Beast thought he could kill Christ God used it for the Cross and Resurrection How does this not help facilitate God Will on earth? I sure do not understand your point – or how you could even think itExplain why you think the Cross and Resurrection opposes God Plan
Explain to me why you think Judas turning in Jesus opposes God’s Plan
Explain to me why you think God using satan to test Job somehow opposes God
Explain to me why you think God sending satan to David in 1Chr 21:1 opposes God
Explain to me why you think the lying spirit of 1King 22 is opposing God
Dave" If your God is more powerful – why does your satan push him around? Rob" Because other sinless creatures are watching love and loving functions in action from God who is love. So you admit it – YOUR SATAN GOD CAN FORCE THE CREATOR TO CHANGEREJECTED SO HARD THAT MY KEY BOARD IS ABOUT TO BREAK!-------------------------------- Dave" Go back and use the 23+49 we originally used Rob" I can't until you prove to me your Satanas creature exists separately to Satan. Correct – you can’t because it will not support your teaching Instead – you want to argue wordsJames Tabor does not teach hebrew satan is the same as NT satan James Tabor asks – how did this shift in paradigm happen I have given you several PhD papers and Books that all say or ask the same question You cannot hear what they say – because you want to argue words--------------------------------------------------- From D to me Yes contradictory – from Mr Flip FlopHe cannot believe both at the same time – therefore Robert doesn’t believe half the stuff he post here
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Post by Dillon on Oct 14, 2023 15:31:02 GMT -5
Dae" 34:45 – the idea of reincarnation ROb" Just because Tabor says this does not make this true in the torah.
Yes – Robert – reincarnation is 100% a Jewish teaching Every Jew sets an extra plate at the seder meal for Elijah
If there is no such thing as reincarnation how doe Elijah come back? In fact, there are two witness that come back How does Jesus return? Robert is suggesting that all of it is impossible!
Predestination is both Jewish and NT Christian Yes it is. Not everyone all the time, but those God selected to do his bidding good and bad.
If I present your teaching back to you – you call it mocking Even when Robert hears his own teaching he doesn’t like it. Why does he think others will like it?
Dave" God created everything – it is His creation – it is His Plan and His Will ROb" Yes indeed. A parent loves his daughter. As a parent you created free will with love. Love has a risk. True love is about risk. Risk of rejection. Otherwise love in not love. It is true as you say the prodigal that returned came back with more love than the one who did not sin. He was ever grateful for his dad's love.
THUS – THE WHOLE PURPOSE FOR THE CONTEST To seek the Jobs – the prodigal Sons - God seeking true companionship – with man
Angels were created to serve and praise – no big deal – it is how they are created The BEAST is created to devour and consume / deceive – no big deal – it is how they were created Man – is the creature that can choose No one made us – it was our Free Will choice Man is the creature that – makes God smile / happy / proud - that is a big deal Man is the creature that gives God Divine Joy
THUS – THE WHOLE PURPOSE FOR THE CONTEST God’s Plan from the very beginning The reason God created in the first place- to reveal Himself So His creation could find their way home – back to Him
This a Jewish teaching. Adding the prodigal son is just the NT version. Doesn’t your gnostic teaching say, the purpose of the contest is to flee to the one who exist?
Why can’t Robert see this as a Jewish / Christian teaching?
So any opposer opposing humans, are therefore also opposing God. You oppose me – so why do you oppose God? Again - back to your circular argument - a=b so b=c and you can contradict yourself Robert opposes scripture isn’t that opposing God? Just how many times has he told us that scripture must be wrong? Isn’t that opposing God.
If Robert teaches we are judged and saved before our death, why does he teach about loosing his salvation. Isn’t this just contradictory? Yes contradictory – from Mr Flip Flop He cannot believe both at the same time – therefore Robert doesn’t believe half the stuff he post here
No comment, just wanted to reapeat this
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Post by Dave on Oct 14, 2023 15:50:08 GMT -5
If there is no such thing as reincarnation how doe Elijah come back? Robert is suggesting that all of it is impossible!
Not sure if he accepts the return of the witnesses, or the Second Coming But Robert will argue the word – just to obstruct scripture Remeber - he teaches scripture does not mean reincarnation - it means something different
Predestination is both Jewish and NT Christian Yes it is. Not everyone all the time, but those God selected to do his bidding good and bad. I agree, but Robert will argue the word
If I present your teaching back to you – you call it mocking Even when Robert hears his own teaching he doesn’t like it. Why does he think others will like it? Interesting point
THUS – THE WHOLE PURPOSE FOR THE CONTEST God’s Plan from the very beginning The reason God created in the first place- to reveal Himself So His creation could find their way home – back to Him This a Jewish teaching. Adding the prodigal son is just the NT version. Doesn’t your gnostic teaching say, the purpose of the contest is to flee to the one who exist? Why can’t Robert see this as a Jewish / Christian teaching?
Because it does not revolve all around his god satan For Robert to be happy there must be Catholic evil to blame it all on
So any opposer opposing humans, are therefore also opposing God. You oppose me – so why do you oppose God? Again - back to your circular argument - a=b so b=c and you can contradict yourself Robert opposes scripture isn’t that opposing God? Just how many times has he told us that scripture must be wrong? Isn’t that opposing God.
You would think so Cannot blame it on ignorance that is Gnostic Therefore it must be a deliberate opposition to scripture and God Interesting point
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Post by rob on Oct 14, 2023 15:56:19 GMT -5
Greetings Gentlemen, I am not used to all Jewish beliefs, so I need enlightened ----------------- Dave" Why do you assume – quote him - Why do you need to deny what is said and reinvent it in your assumed wordsRob" Because he speaks too fast, Just how many hours do you wish me to waste on Tabor who really speaks nothing really, no details at all for my liking? Dave" Correct – how did the change in belief happened How did Hebrew satan – a servant of God – become God’s enemy That is his point – lets see if you understand his point or notROb" NO I didn't get that from his speaking at all. Hence the reason why I like written words. Sorry Dave, I am no listener and cannot stand phone talkings. I am also not a social person much, I prefer physical things and physical written words too. Rob" Notice Tabor lists titles for Satan, satanas is not one of those titles. Nor is archon.Dave" Yep – you want to argue wordsROb" Did Tabor lists all these words for one creature or didn't he Dave? When is a fact a fact based on evidence? DO you base evidence on words he spoke or thought he said? I based my evidence on what he wrote down as written material and the facts speak for themselves. Dave" Yes you should read it - you would hate this bookRob" Dave, I don't care to learn Satan, SDA people do not care for such things. You can read accounts of what happened in Sodom, but I do not read such accounts, I do not attend X rated movies either. Or R rated. Some things are best left alone. I spend my time talking and trusting God, I do not need to know my Opposer. Dave" Correct – somewhere inbetweenROb" so my listening skills must be OK? Dave" Oops – your Great Controversy is between two god in the cosmos for God's right to rule the universe Tabor is describing The Creator – vrs the god of this world ROb" really Dave Tabor says the god of this world on earth. His cosmic kingdom is here, the center of our universe, not God's universe, but ours. Jesus came to destroy the god of this world on earth, is clear and you also agree. Stop trying to make the cosmos bigger , the Opposer is only allowed here, on earth. God saw to that, hence the conflict is only restricted to earth. Dave" the god of this world – the BEASTROb" Not once does Tabor use the word "beast" he uses the word "Satan". Dave" all the way through God is the creator of the world Now satan is the god of this world So how did this shift happen – THE GREATEST SHIFT in human thought the history of the worldROb" Does Tabor explain this? NOT that I see? Dave" STOP IT! - right now - LIE – make up LIES – I am sick of itROb" Oh I am sorry. OK great. Tabor says Satan is the god of this world. I wouldn't use the word god, but seems you are ok with this. Now do you agree the god of this world is limited to earth only as his kingdom and the true GOD of all creation resides in heaven? Thus we have two elohiym powers, one in heaven and one on earth? Tabor does not add details, so I an assuming his thoughts?' Wrong of me to do this... so why did you have a video of speaking that says very little? Dave" You need to pause and replay if you do not know what is said – Mr serious – with all your esxcusesROb" NO excuses Dave, I have spent hours on this Tabor already/ Next time show me written articles. Dave" Lies and more lies I teach Rev 12:7 = Gen 1:3 Just how hard is it for your god to separate the Light from the Darkness- you teach god is still in that conflict
Your squirmish lasted seconds, not days and years in heaven as I imagine the battle of sinning unfolding.
Correct – my God is absolute Who can oppose God – who can change God – NO ONE!ROb" Sorry if I misrepresent you. I now ask you to supply me with Jewish written materials so I understand clearly. Dave" My post is my opinion – where have I misrepresented Mr Tabor?ROb" OK Dave" STOP IT – satan does not oppose GodROb" OK why than does the god of this world on earth has a kingdom among men, and why Jesus came down to begin to make cracks in his kingdom, as Tabor says "I saw Satan fall from heaven" meaning his kingdom on earth is being destroyed by Jesus. If Satan is allowed to be a god on earth with a kingdom on earth, why does Jesus come to destroy his kingdom? Hence Jesus is opposing the god of this world. Since Tabor speaks so little, I can't quote his words, but this is what he was saying, my opinion too. Dave" Why must you misrepresent others – MEROb" I never misrepresent you Dave on purpose or mock you, your brevity makes it hard to fathom your thoughts, so now I require you to publish Jews studies on this topic, so I can understand your thoughts better.
Dave" WHAT! - Your Ellen White Controversy is between two godsROb" Dave, Ellen White writes Hebrew in English, and the English is a language with a stammering tongue. She does not read Hebrew, she was a messenger for God's messages, which MUST be in HEBREW, not English. The word "god" refers to "elohiym powers" SO yes there are clearly two "elohiym powers" one in heaven and one on earth. Tabor says the same thing. "god of this world" remember? Dave quote me " Rob – Yes, I have two gods and two kings, what’s wrong with that?" Yes I sometimes write for laypeople in simple terms. Ellen White did the same. The correct words are found in Hebrew, not English. -------------- ROb" I would not agree Tabor says this. "you have that nature as well" means what exactly?Dave" (yester ra)Rob" Tabor never said that. Stick to what he said, not what you want him to say. RobPP" Tabor says Satan deceives as an angel of light, not some Satanas, nor does Tabor use the word archon. He uses the word angel.Dave" Are you arguing against the message or just words?Rob" If I was you, I would get me to watch a video that talks about archons, and yester ra, and Satan as a good angel doing the dirty work of prosecutor. And a Satanas creature in the NT? Does such a video exist on the www? Seems not. Dave" I bet I can find 1000s of different names for the BEASTROb" FInd me a video that speaks of a creature called satanas then. Dave" Just which words do you want to argue Jehovah – HYWY – Adoni – Lord – God – father Savior – Creator – Elohiym – FATHER, Abba, LORD MASTER, THE BEGINNING AND END, Alpha and Omega, THE ANCIENT OF DAYS, Attiyq Youm, THE ANOINTED ONE, Christos, LIVING GOD, El Chay, THE GOD WHO GAVE YOU BIRTH, El Chuwl, THE GOD OF KNOWLEDGE, El Deah, THE GOD, MOST HIGH, El Elyon, THE MIGHTY GOD, El Gibhor, THE EVERLASTING GOD, El Olam, THE GOD WHO SEES, El Roi, GOD, ALMIGHTY, El Shaddai, GOD WITH US, Immanuel, THE SELF-EXISTENT ONE, Jehovah-Bore, THE LORD OUR PROVIDER, Jehovah-Jireh’ THE LORD WHO SANCTIFIES, Jehovah-M'Kaddesh, THE LORD OUR BANNER, Jehovah-Nissi, THE LORD OUR HEALER, Jehovah-Rapha, THE LORD OUR SHEPHERD, Jehovah-Rohi, THE LORD OF HOSTS, Jehovah-Sabbaoth, THE LORD IS PEACE, Jehovah-Shalom, THE LORD IS THERE, Jehovah-Shammah, THE LORD OUR, RIGHTEOUSNESS, Jehovah-Tsidkenu, THE LORD OUR ROCK, Jehovah-Tsuri, THE LORD SAVES, Jesus, THE WORD, Logos, OUR DWELLING PLACE, Ma'on,ROb" nice list If you read JOB the oldest Hebrew we have, therfore the most reliable in terms of Hebrew words, we have only three names of elohiym power eloah shadday YHWH Why three? Two of those three do borning functions in Luke 1 :35 to add humanity to YHWH (SON). That proves the elohiym power is a simile of a real divine family, heavenly parents. How many verses of Scripture do you deny and get confused with? Dave" THEN THERE IS A PARADIGM SHIFT – the biggest in human thoughout and historyROb" OH, so Tabor does speak about satanas, just runs out of time in the video? I see. OK I will get your point, email him and let me see his exact words, get him to write the words satanas, archon and in a NT PARADIGM SHIFT . Dave" How did Hebrew satan – an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord – change – into your Catholic Satan?ROb" Is Tabor really speaking about this? Boy I must have terrible ears. SO are you saying Tabor is speaking in riddles just to misinform simple people like me, and really is pushing a Jewish undertanding of Satan, that has not become a Catholic understanding to Satan. Wow, I misssed that? Dave" Yes – he does - 33:30 – discussing neo-platenism – Christian overlay on the Greek view ROb" I see. I thought he was adding a Greek view Dave" Robert – reincarnation is 100% a Jewish teaching Every Jew sets an extra plate at the seder meal for ElijahROb" wow, I see. Dave" Why the shift in paradigm Why did satan stop being God’s servant and become God’s opponent And the shift in paradigm happened when Rome took over the faith And it happened when Rome Hellenized the faithROb" Why doesn't Tabor say that? Does he plainly? not to me he does? ---------------- Dave" Except Eve – you teach - that was God’s mistake according to you – so God had to change all of His creation to accommodate His mistakeROb" No Dave, God knew Eve would sin. He knew Adam would sin. He knew one day free will would get tested by sinning. Billions of years before they were even created. Dave" You oppose me – so why do you oppose God?ROb" OK I get your point. well said. Dave" You claim this is Hebrew satanROb" OK let's get Jews to answer that question, shall we? Dave" So why can’t you see the truth – all you see is Ellen White’s satan godROb" OK let's get Jews to answer that question, shall we? Dave" YOUR SATAN GOD CAN FORCE THE CREATOR TO CHANGE REJECTED SO HARD THAT MY KEY BOARD IS ABOUT TO BREAK!ROb" I smiled and LOL. Have you never had your daughters rebel while you loved them, did you change your love towards them, maybe love them more? That is a change. ===================== Greetings Dave I am going to try a brand new approach with your viewpoint You are required to quote only Jewish articles and find them for me Such articles and discussions will help me understand your view much better. Too date your brevity is "driving me mad", so I wish to read details behind why you think the way you do. Some Jews like Gordon Nehemiah are great, detailed studies. Perhaps one day I will get you to read his 2 part PDF document, as you have not done so I think?, like I have, about the word meaning of elohiym. I have both articles on my C drive, and comments about his studies. But for now, the topic at hand is Jewish discussions of Satan, the Opposer.
I will start with ONE Jewish source:- www.myjewishlearning.com/article/satan-the-adversary/BY MY JEWISH LEARNING " In Hebrew, the term Satan is usually translated as “opponent” or “adversary,” and he is often understood to represent the sinful impulse (in Hebrew, yetzer hara) or, more generally, the forces that prevents human beings from submitting to divine will. He is also sometimes regarded as a heavenly prosecutor or accuser, a view given expression in the Book of Job, where Satan encourages God to test his servant." 1) Show me a Jewish study proving why they choose a word meaning for Satan, the Hebrew word and for the prefix, hey. 2) Show me a Jewish study that actually discusses in great detail why they put two verses together and assembly a Hebrew construct from two Hebrew words, that are never found side by side in any Hebrew passage. 3) Find me any Jewish commentary on the Hebrew word "aven", I would love to discuss why Jews never consider this Hebrew word, as the inherited inclination towards doing sinful habits. 4) The phrase "the forces that prevents human beings from submitting to divine will" what does this mean to a Jew? Again I want Jewish detailed discussions on why they see the Opposer doing this function? 5) He is also sometimes regarded as a heavenly prosecutor or accuser, a view given expression in the Book of Job, where Satan encourages God to test his servant. FInd me a Jewish article that discusses in great detail why they consider Job to have a heavenly prosecutor. What do Jews mean by this term, why do they consider Satan to be a heavenly prosecutor in the first place, and how do Jews arrive at this conclusion from reading Job. In the OT we only have to consider the Ha-Satan twice. a) Job b) Zech 3 This makes finding Jewish articles easier for you. I will prove to you that the Opposer is not as Jews say, and that the Opposer truly opposes God as well, as I have done already. "Only twice in the Hebrew Bible does Satan appear as a specific figure, as HaSatan — the Satan". I agree the prefix "hey" implies a personal opposer in this passage. "Behold the Being, the Opposer" is my word meaning for the Hebrew word with the prefix hey. 6) Your job is to find a Jewish article that arrives at this conclusion of mine, and discusses why the prefix "hey" means what it means. I agree with the author here, but where is the Jewish discussion? " Satan makes many appearances in the Talmud." Rob" SInce I find the talmud uninspired, I suggest you limit your articles to Jews discussing the torah I understand as inspired torah. I am surprised at your belief with Jews, for example Adam having a shedim wife called Lilith for over 100 years, is really weird, so are inventions of sentences by Jews such as the Bava Batra, comments from so called holy writers, etc. I will limit Jewish commentary to discussions from and about the torah, though I do allow you to add other material Jews might add because Jews do follow humans precepts of men, something the torah warned us about. Unlike you I do not mock Jewish weird additions like Lilith, and Solomon playing around with demons, however true to my convictions of the torah, I do not wish to discuss this material, we have been there already. So try to stick to Jewish discussions about the torah OK? Thanks. 7) However one aspect of weird writing interests me for your sake, show me a Jewish article that says Jews accept the GNostic writings you so love. I would like to see this written somewhere by Jews and read how they came up with this idea? I suspect these Jewish might be Hellenisitic in nature? I might ask you to show me an old fashion Moses torah loving Jew, but I do not have the term for this kind of Jew. 8) Some of these Christian ideas are echoed in Jewish tradition, but some also point to fundamental differences — most notably perhaps the idea that, in the Hebrew Bible at least, Satan is ultimately subordinate to God, carrying out his purpose on earth.
It is rare to find Jewish articles on the NT. Messanic Jews I would love to read their discussions. In fact if a Messanic Jewish church existed in 100 miles of my home, I would go there every Sabbath. At this moment in time, I love Messanic Jews, though I have only met a SDA Jew like this once, and at best she was not very Jewish. I understand Gordon Nemiah is a Messanic Jew, yet we totally disagree over the word meaning of elohiym? So this is why I say "at this moment" if I did attend a Messanic CHurch, how long would I be allowed to attend there? Jews say we can agree to disagree over torah, so as long as we have salvation, we ponder torah for all eternity, makes Hebrew poetry fun. OK find me a Jewish article that discusses why Satan is seen as insubordinate to God, or God's servant, or lacking power of independence. "all is in your power" Where do Jews discuss this phrase?
9) Or that he isn’t real at all, but is merely a metaphor for sinful impulses. Show me Jewish articles that discuss why Satan is merely a poetry illusion for inclinations to sin, not a real personal being. Seems to me the prefix "hey" is ignored in the word stem "Satan". 10) Articles written with the My Jewish Learning byline are authored and edited by our staff. My Jewish Learning's staff includes leading Jewish scholars and journalists. Rachel Scheinerman, who holds a doctorate in Ancient Judaism from Yale University, is My Jewish Learning's Editor, and Ben Harris, a longtime, award-winning journalist covering Jewish topics, is Managing Editor. Is this website, Jewish enough to be truly Jewish? Is there a website that truly is from Messanic Jews? Now Dave, I have tried really hard to find Jewish material on this topic and the details of the topic, but its a hard task. I have to go to work now, so you have many days to find such Jewish studies. I prefer textual studies, not videos. The words they say or not say, is hard to fathom. Tabor for instance says very little indeed on the topic at hand. True for you he says the word Gnostic a few times, but that is all he does for you. I remember once we discussed a Messanic female writer on Satan from the USA, but she also lacked details, and seemed to support you if I remember? Others like Rabbi Apple, you did not like. So I want you to collect all the Jews articles you can on this topic. They must be written by Jews discussing the torah. This way I can understand your Jewish heritage better and why you believe the way you do? As for me, I follow sola scriptoria, so my belief system is much easier to find and study, but yours is not so easy. Take your time and find these discussions for me, I would love to read them so I can understand your belief process better. I hope if I understand your belief system better, and can at least remain a friend with you, despite our differences, and I would really love to understand Messanic Jewish thinking more. So I get something out of this study too. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 14, 2023 16:23:08 GMT -5
The -as here is actually the Greek masculine ending -ᾱς. It's a dialectal variation on the -ης (-ēs) you see in names like Socrates, Euripides, Achilles, and so on: probably the most common ending for male names in Ancient Greek. So when people started translating the Bible and the Torah into Ancient Greek, and came across the word שָׂטָן (satan, "adversary"), they had two choices for how to represent it. One option was to translate it literally, with the Greek word διάβολος (diábolos, "betrayer"). The other option was to take the word satan and just respell it in the Greek alphabet as σαταν. This has been bugging me – and Robert wouldn’t post his sourceI found it – this was on a blog - latin.stackexchange.com/questions/2918/what-is-the-meaning-of-satanasanswered by Draconis♦Apr 29, 2019 at 20:48 But if you read the blog the very next two posts say:“I am not entirely happy with the implication that Greek Σατανᾶς is from a non-Ionic dialect. Another option is that it comes not directly from Hebrew śāṭan, but via Aramaic sāṭānā, adorned with Greek case endings.” By - fdb * Sep 24, 2021 at 16:30 “@fdb A good point! I should go through and update this answer at some point, looking back at it I made several mistakes here”. – Draconis♦ Sep 24, 2021 at 16:36
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Post by Dave on Oct 14, 2023 19:53:07 GMT -5
Dave" Why do you assume – quote him - Why do you need to deny what is said and reinvent it in your assumed words Rob" Because he speaks too fast, You say you were an educator – does some one have to tell you to slow down and listen – reply if you miss something – DUH Just how serious are you?Just how many hours do you wish me to waste On studying scripture – you call it a waste Just how serious are you?Dave" Correct – how did the change in belief happened How did Hebrew satan – a servant of God – become God’s enemy That is his point – lets see if you understand his point or not ROb" NO I didn't get that from his speaking at all. Hence the reason why I like written words. youtu.be/lKItbUWnymA A request by Dave:- How and When Did Satan Become the God of this World?by James Tabor Dave" Yes you should read it - you would hate this book Rob" Dave, I don't care to learn Satan, SDA people do not care for such things. Yet - you teach satan as the bases of all your traditionsAnd – the book is not about satan – so judge away The book is about the unseen realm ---------------------------- ROb" Tabor says Satan is the god of this world. I wouldn't use the word god, but seems you are ok with this. Now do you agree the god of this world is limited to earth (physical matter) only as his kingdom and the true GOD of all creation resides in heaven? Thus we have two elohiym powers, one in heaven and one on earth? Finally you admit it – NOT TWO GODS IN HEAVEN IN A CONTROVERSYBut an absolute creator above it all in control of the ALLand way below in the muck of physical creation there is a bully – a BEAST – a created being - a dragon – that ancient serpent – we call devils and satanas Yes – I will support this statement and the created bully / BEAST – is created by God for God
The whole idea of a lowly created being changing his form and function – then changing others form and function then changed all of creations form and function against Gods Will is so stupid only a complete idiot would believe this Or a Catholic – which are you? ---------------------------------- Dave" STOP IT – satan does not oppose God ROb" OK why than does the god of this world on earth has a kingdom among men, and why Jesus came down to begin to make cracks in his kingdom, For the 300th time - The BEAST was throw into physical creation This is his kingdom – this is the domain of the archon Man is spirit – but we are born into flesh (of this world) and (yester ra) end up sinners (all before we even realize what sin is) Even if we turn to God at age 4 – that selfish thing we did at age 3 is going to sent us to hell – unless forgiven The Apocryphon of JamesBut I answered and said to him, "Lord, we can obey you if you wish, for we have forsaken our fathers and our mothers and our villages, and followed you. Grant us, therefore, not to be tempted by the devil, the evil one." The Lord answered and said, "What is your merit if you do the will of the Father and it is not given to you from him as a gift while you are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan, and persecuted, and you do his (i.e., the Father's) will, I say that he will love you, and make you equal with me, and reckon you to have become beloved through his providence by your own choice. as Tabor says "I saw Satan fall from heaven" meaning his kingdom on earth is being destroyed by Jesus. Or – Rev 12:7 war → Rev 12:9 thrown downIf Satan is allowed to be a god on earth with a kingdom on earth, why does Jesus come to destroy his kingdom? Hence Jesus is opposing the god of this world.Because this world – is a trap – all men fall for its selfish desires – we cannot help it – we are animalJesus did not come to save the animal – but the inner man To aid the spirit of man – to return to God as a Prodigal Son Scripture says no man can do it on his own – needs help And for every soul saved – this world looses it attractiveness This world leads to sin – greed – lust – hate Why would a Christian want this? Why wouldn’t a Christian hate this? making cracks in his kingdomRev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.they loved not their lives unto the death. How does Ellen White teach this?Adam Clark Rev 12:11 They regarded not their present temporal estate, but even gladly delivered up their lives to the fury of their persecutors, and thus sealed the truth of what they spake with their blood. 100% Gnostic teaching
The Apocryphon of JamesDo you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before> you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour. For the good will not enter into the world. Scorn death, therefore, and take thought for life! Remember my cross and my death, and you will live!" The Book of Thomas the ContenderWoe to you who hope in the flesh and in the prison that will perish! How long will you be oblivious? And how long will you suppose that the imperishables will perish too? Your hope is set upon the world, and your god is this life! You are corrupting your souls! -------------- RobPP" Tabor says Satan deceives as an angel of light, not some Satanas, nor does Tabor use the word archon. He uses the word angel. Dave" Are you arguing against the message or just words? Rob" If I was you, I would get me to watch a video that talks about archons, and yester ra, and Satan as a good angel doing the dirty work of prosecutor. AND YOUR ANSWER IS? Again – are you arguing the message of scripture or are you just arguing words?---------------------------------- Dave" Except Eve – you teach - that was God’s mistake according to you – so God had to change all of His creation to accommodate His mistake ROb" No Dave, God knew Eve would sin. He knew Adam would sin. He knew one day free will would get tested by sinning. Billions of years before they were even created.OK – I’ll play your game Why would God create a sinning creature?You have asked this of me many times about the archon So now answer your own question ===================== I am going to try a brand new approach with your viewpoint You are required to quote only Jewish articles and find them for me I am required to do your home work – sorry I already have a life The topic at hand is Jewish discussions of Satan, the Opposer.I will start with ONE Jewish source:- www.myjewishlearning.com/article/satan-the-adversary/BY MY JEWISH LEARNING 1) Show me a Jewish study proving why they choose a word meaning for Satan, the Hebrew word and for the prefix, hey. In Hebrew, the term Satan is usually translated as “opponent” or “adversary,”2) Show me a Jewish study that actually discusses in great detail why they put two verses together and assembly a Hebrew construct from two Hebrew words, that are never found side by side in any Hebrew passage. What?3) Find me any Jewish commentary on the Hebrew word "aven", I would love to discuss why Jews never consider this Hebrew word, as the inherited inclination towards doing sinful habits. (yester ra) = God’s commandment for the animals for self -preservation and the survival of the species ‘go forth, be fruitful, and multiply – and fill the earth’ Why do you want to teach this as evil and wicked?4) The phrase "the forces that prevents human beings from submitting to divine will" what does this mean to a Jew? Not Hebrew satan’s function – so no discussion availableAgain I want Jewish detailed discussions on why they see the Opposer doing this function? Doing what function? Hebrew satan is a servant of the Lord 5) He is also sometimes regarded as a heavenly prosecutor or accuser, a view given expression in the Book of Job, where Satan encourages God to test his servant. I will prove to you that the Opposer is not as Jews say, and that the Opposer truly opposes God as well, as I have done already. "Only twice in the Hebrew Bible does Satan appear as a specific figure, as HaSatan — the Satan". We have been all over Zec 3 and Job - what havent you said already? I am surprised at your belief with Jews, for example Adam having a shedim wife called Lilith for over 100 years Buy a dictionary and look up the definition of Legend 8) Some of these Christian ideas are echoed in Jewish tradition, but some also point to fundamental differences — most notably perhaps the idea that, in the Hebrew Bible at least, Satan is ultimately subordinate to God, carrying out his purpose on earth. Yep - Hebrew satan is not the BEAST of RevelationIt is rare to find Jewish articles on the NT. DUH – how many SDA articles are their on Taoism Show me someOK find me a Jewish article that discusses why Satan is seen as insubordinate to God, or God's servant, or lacking power of independence. "all is in your power" Where do Jews discuss this phrase? Look at Jewish Encyclopedia – satan Have posted it for you several timesThis way I can understand your Jewish heritage better and why you believe the way you do? As for me, I follow sola scriptoria, so my belief system is much easier to find and study, but yours is not so easy.Sure – keep looking in Catholic libraries and you will find much pro-Catholic information Roman Edit – they hide – or discourage any other views - DUHThere is nothing complicated about Judeao-Christain theologyThose who pass the “LIFE TEST” and choose God over world are saved Those who have a spiritual ‘Born Again’ communion – have gifts – not all the same – but all to facilitate God’s Will on earth Sure there are devils and other gods – made by God for God We are born into this world to witness – Jer 1:5 Our judgment will depend on – belief – then deeds, works, and fruit – proportional for everyone because God is fair (how well do we Jer 1:5) There is even an option for a ‘DO-OVER’ to be fair And there is the promise of being First Fruits Those who have been touched – cannot keep it a secretIf my co-worker saw a movie star he would brag it to everyone If he met the president – he would be locally famous Paul hated Christians – met Christ – and became the biggest Apostle James – faith without works = no faith Those who have been touched – cannot keep it a secret Yes – there is evil in the world – yes there are many satanas / many devils / many serpents – and they take many many forms None of them are GOD – at the most a few became false gods They were made by God – Col 1:16 – John 1:3 – Rev 4:11 Why were they made by God There is nothing complicated about Judeao-Christain theologyI will add another – ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why did God create Gen 1:1? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why did God introduce the Light into the Darkness Gen 1:3? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’ - ChristWhy did God separate the Light from the Darkness? Gen 1:4 ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why did God created man? Gen 1:26 ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why did God create the BEAST? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why did God put the serpent and Eve together in the garden – if as you say – God knew exactly what would happen? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’ - ChristWhy did God call Abram out from Ur? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why promise the land, but end up as slaves in Egypt? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why did God allow the iniquity of the Amorite to complete? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why did God only give the Torah to the 1% and set them against the 99%? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why John 3:16 – Jesus Christ the Cross and Resurrection? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why pause for the Age of the gentile? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why leave some Jews behind – to be called together – for the end times? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why allow Allah to become so powerful as he has? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’What is the point of the Last great battle? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Why a new Heaven and earth? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’And in all of this – sure satan, devils, serpents, play a role Jewish belief #2 – God test His people - If an obstacle is in the way – God put it there as a testThere is nothing complicated about Judeao-Christain theologyMY THEOLOGYJewish – Eden is a separate location then the world Jewish – Eden still exist as heaven 3 Jewish – at the end all Jews will be resurrected into bodies like Adam’s before Gen 3 Jewish – the resurrected will return to Eden = Jewish eternal life Me – Eden was a separate location – an Oasis here on earth Outside of Eden = Incremental Creation – Entropy – Life cycle Gen 3 – the only thing that happen = Adam and Eve changed locations Adam and Eve entered the world outside A cherub guarded the way back to Eden Now in the world – they are removed from the tree of life and began to die as all biology does My TheologyJewish Theology – Adam and Eve - may not be two people – but the story of the first humans Rom 5:12 is not about one person – but of mankind - the story of the first humans Gen 3 is not the story of one person – but of mankind - the story of the first humans Me – God knew what would happen – God is omniscient (all knowing) It is His creation therefore He created it – knowing man would sin To answer your own question – why would God make sinning creatures ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’There Gen 3:14-24 – the CONTEST on earth – was always God’s Plan Why? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’And those worthy of passing the test are worthy to commune with God Spirit to spirit God seeking the Jobs (who might not be one guy but - the story of the first humans – or a human) God seeking the Prodigal Sons – for one to one communion Why to introduce the Messiah? ‘Jewish teaching #3 Why? - To reveal Himself – To reveal His power and glory’Helping those who believe – to be worthy of passing the test My TheologyJewish Theology – there have always been two groups of angels Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy cried an alarm? Two groups Angels and the Sons of GodHebrew satan – is an angel working for God – the 99% are filled with shedim / other gods / devils Hebrew satan of the Angeles (1%) - the 99% filled with the BEAST – serpent – devils – satanas Hebrew satan of the Angels (1%) - Chaldean satanas of the BEAST – serpent – devils OT Hebrew satan – NT BEAST of Revelation called archon – a whole army of devilsTwo groups Angels and the Sons of GodJob Hebrew satan + Sons of God Gen 6:1-4 (no angels mentioned ) + Sons of God = Nephilim Gen 1:1-4 two groups – heaven + earth Gen 1:1-4 two groups – Light and Darkness In heaven – two groups Those at the Righ Hand Those at the Left Hand Two choices - God or world (yester tov) or (yester ra) Two options / choces Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Our real struggle Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: God DID ITNot complicated at all
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