Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2022 15:01:20 GMT -5
Greetings Dave So if my logic is wrong, come up with a better defense Dave? RobPrevious Post " So because the shedim continue to go about like a roaring lion, devouring and possessing human minds, leading humans to sin, tells me the shedim are HOT locked away.Dave: " Correct – only 200 + the Gigori are locked away in chains in a prisionRob" Come on Dave, you cannot say " correct" Stop lying to yourself and start defending your view correctly/ You cannot have archon/shedim sinning, because they cannot sin, they have no free will to sin. To you they are mere RA creatures created to do RA, and hence cannot do moral sinning like humans can. This is you belief, correct? I am not interested in your side line, some are locked away etc. Stop changing your problems with Scripture to another twist. The problem is your creatures cannot morally sin. Is this correct? Did I say what you believe correctly? " your creatures cannot morally sin" ? Your excuses to list Jewish links to "shedim sin" or "shedim sinneth" is FALSE D" Search = Sinning shedim = Jewish demonology = Beelzebub and the shedimR" SHow me a link, post a passage where Jews write the "shedim chata" or "demons sin". Is there such an acknowledgement by the traditional, non Messanic Jew? Or even a Hellenized Non Messanic Jew? Or even a Messanic Jew, that would be the same as my view of the NT torah? Show me your evidence. It's your view, you defend yourself. Stop attacking me, I am not attacking you about your Gnostic views, I know what you believe, but it has holes in it, especially if you also claim to follow the Hebrew OT and NT torah. ------------ RP" So your understanding of the everlasting chains of darkness us wrong Dave. It's an idiom meaning that that the sinner is enslaved in their chains of sin.D" ANOTHER SECOND GREAT AWAKENING REVELATIONR" OK prove to me the everlasting chains of darkness refers to physically locked away than. You can't do this either. 1) How restrictive is a "house of bondage" Dave? The Israelites were slaves to Egyptians. That is another issue. How restrictive is the bondage of sin? Does it stop you from doing things to other humans? Should GOD also lock away the sinning humans from other sinning humans, just as GOD locked away the sinning angels from the sinless angels? Does your logic make sense? No it doesn't. And when you do as a kind master, restrict the temptations of sinning angels from sinless angels? When do you say enough is enough? And banish the sinner, the wicked one to a prison where his influence is restricted, but NOT totally locked away. The phrase "everlasting chains of darkness " tells you it's not a physical chain, but a spiritual one. A simple video for kids scripturelady.com/chains-of-sin-bible-object-lesson-script-by-the-scripture-lady/ 2 minutes, worth listening to Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Obviously sin is a chain of everlasting darkness in you, enslaving you in chains of guilt. youtu.be/qWlpEFNMZFk A link to the chains of sin, 55 second video Some evidence of the everlasting chains of darkness is a reference to the "chains of sin". 1) Psalm 107:14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death And broke their bands apart. "bands" same as Isa 52:2, the "loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion" Obvious reference to physical chains, or the spiritual chains of sin, or both? 2) Nahum 1:13 “So now, I will break his yoke bar from upon you, And I will tear off your shackles.” KJV "Na 1:13 For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder. Same "bonds" as Is 52:2, and Psalm 107:14 , physical chain on the neck, as well as spiritual sinning, look at the context of Nahum. 3) Psalm 2:3 “Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!” KJV" Ps 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. Same idea, chains on the neck, also a simile of "cords" Ps 129:4 The LORD is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked. The cords of the wicked is a simile of a chain about the neck. Isa 5:18 ¶ Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope: Same idea here, in stronger language. 4) Psalm 107:10 There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the shadow of death, Prisoners in misery and chains, Why ? Ps 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, So sinning is the same as being bound in chains od darkness. 5) Isaiah 58:6 “Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke? R" Same idea, only stronger use of words. 6) Ezekiel 7:23 ‘Make the chain, for the land is full of bloody crimes and the city is full of violence. 7) Psalm 68:6 God makes a home for the lonely; He leads out the prisoners into prosperity, Only the rebellious dwell in a parched land. 8) Jeremiah 2:20 “For long ago I broke your yoke And tore off your bonds; But you said, ‘I will not serve!’ For on every high hill And under every green tree You have lain down as a harlot. 10) Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had seized him many times; and he was bound with chains and shackles and kept under guard, and yet he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert. 11) Leviticus 26:13 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt so that you would not be their slaves, and I broke the bars of your yoke and made you walk erect. 12) Jeremiah 28:10 Then Hananiah the prophet took the yoke from the neck of Jeremiah the prophet and broke it. 13) Psalm 129:4 The Lord is righteous; He has cut in two the cords of the wicked. 14) Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 15) Psalm 149:8 To bind their kings with chains And their nobles with fetters of iron, R" I studied a few verses and the Bible is teeming with this idea. Obviously sin is a chain of everlasting darkness in you, enslaving you in chains of guilt or sin.D" Sorry Robert – Judaism teaches a place of torment of Proportional PunishmentR" changing topic Dave. not going there sorry. D" The Second Book of Enoch Of the assumption of Enoch to the third heaven.R" Enoch gave us an oral torah, not a written torah, I suspect Enoch was written down later after Enoch died by Hellenized Jews to deceive people. But this is another topic. Not interested in sidelines right now. One topic at a time, OK? DAVE QUOTES " everlasting chains under darkness " FROM Jude 1:6 If the physical chains are everlasting, and made of darkness, how can this be Dave? Especially when over 15 verses says the chains, bonds, fetters, etc, refer to SIN and SINNING. You are twisting a poetry idom Dave to invent a meaning not there. D" W hy are you afraid to study the Prophesy of Enoch?R" Been there already, the Written account by so called Enoch is false, lies and a deception, not in harmony with torah. Different topic, not going there. Stick to Hebrew scripture like you claim you support. RP" And in Rev 20 the angel comes down with a chain, to bind the chief shedim, so he cannot be chained before hand? ie chained up twice??
D" INCORRECT – none of the trinity of the Beast mentioned in Rev 20 are the bane elohiym of Gen 6 or their Nephilim – that group is locked away
R" Please explain, is this a habit of yours, your brevity mocks me, no discussion " trinity of the Beast mentioned in Rev 20 " the WHAT? Discuss Dave, make your words easy to read.... please.... RP" What happen when there was war in heaven? Nothing was locked away,Dave" Correct – either Jude is wrong – or he is speaking of the bane elohiym of Gen 6
All that happened was the Beast and his archon were ejected into physical creation
R" More of your brevity, that makes no sense " ejected into physical creation" means WHAT? Rev 12:9 he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Says in Bible the sinning messengers were cast into the earth, from other Scriptures, beneath the earth, into hell, way lower than the ground level. A place unknown in Scriptues, shaowl, but written lots about. D" Judaism 101 – angels do not have Free Will –R" This is dead wrong. Ezekiel 28 says the cherub sinned.D" Sorry Robert – Ezk 28 says the King of Tyre got too big for his britches - arogance
R" Well we have a problem don't we. Either the cherub refers to a cherub or it doesn't Dave? Not a reference to humans. Jews talk of cherub as a class of Angel, so what is it you disagree to? Again you quote the simile, King Tyre, can't you see another SIMILE in the poem apart from the human, DUH? You do the same with "everlasting chains of darkness", you can't see the SIMILE in the poem? You see only the physical chains, not the SIMILE in the poetry. ----------------Dave quotes stuff---------------- Do angels have free will according to Judaism? – Quora www.quora.com › Do-angels-have-free-will-accord... No, according to Judaism, angels are task specific creations without free will. Furthermore, according to Judaism, humans are the only part of creation to be ...
If Angels Don't Have Freewill, Do They Know the Difference ... outreachjudaism.org › if-angels-dont-have-freew... Angels do not act upon this knowledge because they do not have free will; they have no independent agency.
Scriptural evidence that angels have no free will - Mi Yodeya judaism.stackexchange.com › questions › scriptu... Aug 28, 2012 — Rabbinic Jews do not believe angels have "free will" because angels are the natural forces (Maimonides).----------Rob replies " I don't care about humans who invent stuff Dave. SOlar Scriptoria says "cherub chata" is very simple in Ezekiel 28 John says the shedim sin like humans sin in 1 John 3:8. Either you obey torah in Bible or you support the precepts of human deceptions. Which is it Dave? RP" Do you choose to support the Hebrew torah or not.D" ABSOLUTELYR" No you don't, you quote Gnostic books all the time. Start posting Hebrew torah only, and see if your views stand under them. D" YES – I ADMIT IT – I follow Jewish Theology and demonology – BECAUSE nothing changedR" Everything has changed, because Jews (some) do not support the OT/NT torah, they follow invented traditions of men, to their peril. RP" Even shedim must have free will to sin, as John says the shedim sinned from the beginning. D" The Beast sinned against entirety - sinned against creation – sinned against nature = ENTROPY The bane elohiym sinned against God because they reproduced out of their kindR" This is BS and you know it Dave. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. It says here the shedim sin like humans sin, BOTH have free will to sin. DUH Stop twisting the Scritpures to suit your views. DO you agree with 1 John 3:8 on this idea? RP" R What an absurd notion, creating a creature to function ? How is this love?D" Ants do what they do because that is their role within nature Frogs do what they do because that is their role within nature Bacteria do what they do because that is their role within natureR" must you pick lowly creatures Dave, twist and mock me again? Alex is a bird, a lowly creature that talks English. If only the ant could be trained to talk English, would that convince Dave, no it wouldn't. Evidence does not change a world view. You are stuck in your deception Dave, unless God comes into your life and you start reading the torah solar scriptoria, like I do. D" Why do you hate nature and call it flawed – R" Dave your Gnostic creation says nature is flawed intentionally...DUH Not my view, everything by GOD is always perfect and unflawed. Sin however changed this. D" A rat can eat your corn – or your rice – their choice Mice can invade your walls – or your attic – or your garage – all their choice Man can chose to go to college or enlist in the Army – or be a plumber – all choice
Has nothing to do with the FREE WILL to choose GodR" OH so we change the idea of defining Free will, do we now? Sure animals cannot choose to be saved by God when they sin, because salvation is not offered to the lowly animals, as Scripture says in Eccel. That does not remove that they could seek salvation if it was offered to them. You change free will into a gift offered by GOD. Yes it is that. so now we cannot tell if angels had this offer or not. BIngo Dave has now made the Bible confusing. DId the cherub that sinned, have an offer to repent and be saved by God? How can we know? What clues are there that man is offered salvation? How do we know this? Answer the questions Dave. D" Sorry Robert – Beast – a biological thing – that has offspringR" I am beginnign to see your problem, you cannot see SIMILES in Bible poetry, not in any theme. You always see the literal and never see the SIMILE. I asked you once to post one of your poems. Have you ever written poetry Dave. Please post a poem so I can help you see what poetry is. " rain bread" is a Bible poetry phrase, the best I have ever see written. How clever is God. What does this mean to you Dave? D" SORRY ROBERT _ quote all the verse Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;R" exactly Dave, you fail to see SIMILES in poetry phrases of the Bible. So did God literally rain bread from heaven for Israel? Literally yes. Manna. Is that all this verse is referring to Dave, just manna falling from heaven? Do you see SIMILES in the verse? D" YES – you have a two word doctrine supported by the Roman catholic Church Precept upon precept, line upon line – you have nothing elseR" DO I need anything else? How many verses of Scripture do you need on a theme Dave? How many verses in the OT on living by faith alone? ONE Just because the the Roman catholic Church supports this verse, I doubt that too, is besides the point. Communism supports Amos verses too, does not make Bible support communism. You are making excuses to not follow Sola Scriptoria RP" The "beast power" became corrupt over time. War in heaven, implies time. D" During creation – the Beast appeared – a by-product of / inherent to physicality = ENTROPYR" Since when is RA a byproduct of creation? RA is a byproduct of SINNING Dave. You twist Scripture often don't you. Look up RA and see where RA comes from? SIN Not a created byproduct of creation. Show me a single verse. D" Search – Sinning Angels = 2 articles about the idea belonging to the New Testament + Articles about Azazel – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6R" OK show me a passage where some creature sinned, written by the Jews Dave, apart from man. DO Jew even acknowledge this idea? I doubt it. From what I have read, Jews find it hard to admit humans sin, let alone other creatures apart from humans. Jews have an idea of doing yester tov, rather than the inclination of yester ra, is not really the idea of SIN, as the Bible implies. But this is another topic. Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Oct 27, 2022 3:58:50 GMT -5
RobPrevious Post "So because the shedim continue to go about like a roaring lion, devouring and possessing human minds, leading humans to sin, tells me the shedim are HOT locked away. Dave: "Correct – only 200 + the Gigori are locked away in chains in a prision Rob" Come on Dave, you cannot say "correct" Stop lying to yourself and start defending your view correctly/ WHAT – Not all of the archon are locked away – I agree with you – only the bane elohiym and their Gigori are locked away – Jude / 2 Peter--------------- To you they are mere RA creatures created to do RA, and hence cannot do moral sinning like humans can. This is you belief, correct? Misrepresent away Robert – it is your only defense
Please explain what is RA about a butterfly Answer = NOTHING – it is only (yester ra) – go forth be fruitful and multiply ---------------- I am not interested in your side line, some are locked away etc. Why do you deny the agl/NT? Jude and 2 peter say the bane elohiym of Gen 6 are locked away------------------- Stop changing your problems with Scripture to another twist. The problem is your creatures cannot morally sin. Is this correct? Did I say what you believe correctly? "your creatures cannot morally sin" ? Only you know what you mean by this religious talk The Beast is a beast = (yester ra) = go forth be fruitful and multiplyThe (yester ra) of ants cause destruction to our world – not theirs The (yester ra) of terminates cause destruction in our world – not theirs The (yester ra) of rats / mice / raccoons / baboons cause destruction in our world – not theirs Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; ---------------------- Your excuses to list Jewish links to "shedim sin" or "shedim sinneth" is FALSE WHAT – can we please have an honest discussion You must lie and misrepresent in every post – it is a false witness – and a sin - Christian You said – “Your view is wrong Dave, the Jews who write about their views are also wrong. Jews never consider a shedim sinning at all.”So I just looked it up in the JEWISH ENCYLOPEDIASaying – “Let’s see if you are factual – or just making up facts about Judaism” D" Search = Sinning shedim = Jewish demonology = Beelzebub and the shedim Don’t Forget – D Search – Sinning Angels = 2 articles about the idea belonging to the New Testament + Articles about Azazel – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6 R" SHow me a link, post a passage where Jews write the "shedim chata" or "demons sin".Easy – Gen 6:1 Now when humankind began to multiply on the face of the ground and daughters were born to them, Gen 6:2 then the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were good and they took for themselves wives, any they chose. It all began in the time of Jerod and ended with the Flood Show me your evidence. It's your view, you defend yourself. Stop attacking me, Why is exposing Ellen White SDA-ism as a replacement Christianity spawn of multiple false doctrines of the Second Great Awakening alongside Mormonism, JW, and Baha Islam – an attack on you?
The Jewish demon - Amosdeus: admits that he is the last of those that came down The Jewish demon Beelzebul admits that he is the offspring of an ARCH-angel and the father of offspring ------------ RP" So your understanding of the everlasting chains of darkness us wrong Dave. It's an idiom meaning that that the sinner is enslaved in their chains of sin. NICE SERMON – darkness always = ignorance of God / Light always = truthD" ANOTHER SECOND GREAT AWAKENING REVELATION R" OK prove to me the everlasting chains of darkness refers to physically locked away than. You can't do this either. You have no afterlife – no spirituality – no spiritual realm You have no hell – just peaceful rest in peace sleep of the grave for the wicked You – like the JW – teach earth is hell
1) How restrictive is a "house of bondage" Dave? The Israelites were slaves to Egyptians. You have no afterlife – no spirituality – no spiritual realm You have no hell – just peaceful rest in peace sleep of the grave for the wicked You – like the JW – teach earth is hell
The phrase "everlasting chains of darkness " tells you it's not a physical chain, but a spiritual one. You have no spiritual – you deny your own teachingObviously sin is a chain of everlasting darkness in you, enslaving you in chains of guilt or sin. D" Sorry Robert – Judaism teaches a place of torment of Proportional Punishment R" changing topic Dave. not going there sorry. Correct – the discussion is all about “A” You refuse to discuss it – you need to replace the discussion with “B”---------------------------- D" Why are you afraid to study the Prophesy of Enoch? I asked you directly “A”Your answer R" Been there already, the Written account by so called Enoch is false, lies and a deception, not in harmony with torah. Different topic, not going there. Stick to Hebrew scripture like you claim you support.So you and the SDA deny the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as the Lion of Judah Why do you call yourself a Christian if the Second Coming prophesied by Enoch – quoted by Jude is ‘false, lies and a deception, not in harmony with torah.’------------------------------ RP" And in Rev 20 the angel comes down with a chain, to bind the chief shedim, so he cannot be chained before hand? ie chained up twice?? D" INCORRECT – none of the trinity of the Beast mentioned in Rev 20 are the bane elohiym of Gen 6 or their Nephilim – that group is locked away R" Please explain, is this a habit of yours, your brevity mocks me, no discussion "trinity of the Beast mentioned in Rev 20 " the WHAT? Discuss Dave, make your words easy to read.... please.... Why must I read scripture to you? Mr scripture expert!Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are too, --------------------------- R" More of your brevity, that makes no sense "ejected into physical creation" means WHAT?Rev 12:9 he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Says in Bible the sinning messengers were cast into the earth, from other Scriptures, beneath the earth, into hell, way lower than the ground level. A place unknown in Scriptues, shaowl, but written lots about. If I was in the 4th grade – maybe I would agree However – once you grow you and read scripture at any depth at all – it is obvious The “earth” of Gen 1:1-2 = physical creation The “dirt” of Gen 1:12 = material creation The “soil” of Gen 1:1-2 = the cosmos The “substance” of Gen 1:1-2 = a 10 dimensional reality - 3D + 7H above Planet Earth was not created until Gen 1:9 The Beast and his Archon = Entropy on a multidimensional scale ----------------Dave quotes stuff---------------- Do angels have free will according to Judaism? – Quora www.quora.com › Do-angels-have-free-will-accord... No, according to Judaism, angels are task specific creations without free will. Furthermore, according to Judaism, humans are the only part of creation to be ... If Angels Don't Have Freewill, Do They Know the Difference ... outreachjudaism.org › if-angels-dont-have-freew... Angels do not act upon this knowledge because they do not have free will; they have no independent agency. Scriptural evidence that angels have no free will - Mi Yodeya judaism.stackexchange.com › questions › scriptu... Aug 28, 2012 — Rabbinic Jews do not believe angels have "free will" because angels are the natural forces (Maimonides). ---------- Rob replies " I don't care about humans who invent stuff Dave.Correct – the only way your SDA church doctrine holds water is if Judaism is wrong and that would include all Christianity based upon Messianic Judaism
SOlar Scriptoria says "cherub chata" is very simple in Ezekiel 28 YES – SIMPLE – this is all you have – a metaphor that IS NOT SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE- OR JUDAISM
John says the shedim sin like humans sin in 1 John 3:8. YEP – (yester ra) To animals = go forth be fruitful and multiply (self-preservation and the survival of the species) The Beast – the Archon – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – went forth and multiplied (yester ra) BREAKING the commandment to reproduce within your own kind Gen 6 – Nephilim / chimears – Rephiem Yep – (yester ra)To man - go forth be fruitful and multiply (self-preservation and the survival of the species) + subdue / have dominion / conquer Lust – desire – want – need – greed – self – selfishness all leads man to sin RP" Do you choose to support the Hebrew torah or not. D" ABSOLUTELY R" No you don't, you quote Gnostic books all the time. Start posting Hebrew torah only, and see if your views stand under them. The only relevant factor = THE CONTEXT OF JESUS CHRIST and the GOSPEL What did the disciple believe – what theology framework was Jesus speaking from Jesus Christ spoke to His disciples both before and for about 40 days after His Resurrection – Acts 1
Jesus and all of His disciples were Jewish – all the first Christians were Jewish – their theology is the only CONTEXT that matters
Mat 5:17-18 – NOTHING CHANGED – EXCEPT Jesus Christ is the Messiah and opened the door of Divine Pardon to everyone – not jut the JewsYES – it was always available – from the very beginning – just rare and hard to attain Jesus Christ made it easy for us – John 3:16 John 1:1 The Word = the Word with God = the Word was God The thought behind the Word – the speaking of the Word through a distance – and the image of the Word God – Holy Spirit – Image / Christ God Himself – came to earth and put on flesh to walk a mile in our shoes 1- to fulfill all Torah prophesy 2- to prove to all – that this word is an illusion – we are just visitors here 3- to prove our real home is in heaven with God 4- it is where we came from – we souljourn here – and we return back home to be with God God loves man so much that he entrusted man with a mission for the Lord – a commission – a purpose – a reason to be alive – the meaning of life – Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” And when man returns to God – we will be judge on how well we did our job + all the harm we caused along the way 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad. ----------------- D"YES – I ADMIT IT – I follow Jewish Theology and demonology – BECAUSE nothing changed R" Everything has changed, Rome changed it - denied Pentecostalism and added the Fallen Angels to scare you into church – to force your need for the church For you Luther changed it – by adding the doctrine – that everything is a free will choice For me Calvin originally said - we think we have free will – but we are just unaware of the larger reality around us – some of us are called / predestined / chosen EVEN if we do not want to be – Moses – Jonah - Paul and then your Ellen White changed it some more <200 years ago
because Jews (some) do not support the OT/NT torah, they follow invented traditions of men, to their peril. YEP – scripture full circle – the remnant1- to be called back – from all the nations of the world = 1948 Israel 2- to re-establish a home in the Promised Land – 1948 Israel 3- to face off – once again – with their surrounding neighbor nation and their gods ISLAM 4- Ezk 38 – 40 – Armageddon – the war to end all wars 5- the Second Coming of Christ - TRIBULATION – Rev 9 evil spirits (locus) stinging man for 5 Biblical months – the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse Is Torah prophesy correct – or NOT? Is agl/NT prophesy correct or NOT? --------------------- RP" Even shedim must have free will to sin, as John says the shedim sinned from the beginning. D" The Beast sinned against entirety - sinned against creation – sinned against nature = ENTROPY The bane elohiym sinned against God because they reproduced out of their kind R" This is BS and you know it Dave. If – you say what happened in Gen 1:2 = Sin Then – you have no devils – that are all locked away – Jude / 2 Peter / Enoch What happened in Gen 1:2 = Darkness – and darkness is always ignorance of God / Light is always the truth Sin – came into this world through Eve – Gen 3 Bane elohiym of Gen 6 – sinned – are punished (Jude / 2 Peter / Enoch) 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. DO you agree with 1 John 3:8 on this idea? The choice is always between God and World The devil = world - chose world you are of the devils world----------------------- RP" R What an absurd notion, creating a creature to function ? How is this love? If only the ant could be trained to talk English, would that convince Dave, no it wouldn't. How does it change the parrots role within creation?Does is uncontrollably preach the Gospel? It is evil and tries to harm everyone around it? Or is it just still a talking bird? --------------------------- Evidence does not change a world view. You are stuck in your deception Dave, unless God comes into your life and you start reading the torah solar scriptoria, like I do. Filtered through the wisdom of Ellen White with her Roman satan + earth is hell + 2 gods locked in a cosmic struggle – supported by the advent math of the Islamic Mahdi NO THANK YOU – I will stick with Messianic Judaism of the disciples and the first Pentecostal Christians------------------------- D" Why do you hate nature and call it flawed – R" Dave your Gnostic creation says nature is flawed intentionally...DUH Not my view, everything by GOD is always perfect and unflawed. Sin however changed this. I asked question “A”Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth, Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark. Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image in the form of mortal man Why do you hate nature and call it flawed – does Rom 1:19 + Psa 1+:2 point to God’s Intelligent Design – YES OR NO Why isn’t your teaching consistent with scripture?----------------- R" I am beginnign to see your problem, you cannot see SIMILES in Bible poetry, not in any theme. You always see the literal and never see the SIMILE. The simile or metaphor NEVER replaces scripture"rain bread" is a Bible poetry phrase, the best I have ever see written. How clever is God. What does this mean to you Dave? It just means you want to play word chain games to validate your doctrine The simile or metaphor NEVER replace scripture“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth” (Jeremiah 23:5). Why don’t you argue Jesus is a stick? Or made of wood?“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4). Why don’t you argue Jesus is a rock?“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Why don’t you argue that Jesus is a sheep?But for Ezk 28 – The King of Tyre cannot be a cherub covering his people with outstretched wings The problem is – no one ever considered your satan doctrine until Rome invented itBefore Rome – Jewish demonology represented reality – other gods – beelzebul and the shedim – satyrs - Lilith D"YES – you have a two word doctrine supported by the Roman catholic Church Precept upon precept, line upon line – you have nothing else R" DO I need anything else? How many verses of Scripture do you need on a theme Dave? Answer – precept upon precept, line upon line the teaching must be supported by the bulk of scriptureHow many verses in the OT on living by faith alone? ONE Just because you say so? A Rabbi might say the entire ahl Torah is about living by faith aloneJust because the the Roman catholic Church supports this verse, I doubt that too, is besides the point. Communism supports Amos verses too, does not make Bible support communism. Actually – the Bible very much supports an authoritarian theocracy
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2022 16:08:16 GMT -5
Greetings Dave' As I thought, you do not consider similes D" “ He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4). Why don’t you argue Jesus is a rock?
R" The rock here is " tsuwr" which is a simile of the Father, not Christ who is a simile of "cela", another rock. There are two specific rocks mentioned in Scripture, plus general terms, like "stone". I have studied these similes extensively, but you have not, neither has the RC church, nor Jews I suspect. The study is probably wholly mine. D" But for Ezk 28 – The King of Tyre cannot be a cherub covering his people with outstretched wingsR" correct, but that is a simile and what a simile does. But one also needs to study the other stories of the simile too. Dave does not do this. If Jesus is a branch, He is also a SEED, and thus we can study this simile extensively. Jesus is also the HOME HEAD, where wheat develop their seeds into a head. Notice the Ancient Hebrew in the first verse of Scripture "The HOME HEAD strongly presses with active hands towards an important mark. " The HOME HEAD strongs. The Strong Authority of the Divine Being with active hands flow. Than the actions of this flow is written "creating the heavens and the earth". A seed is made of three parts The seed has three functional parts, the testis, the starch grains and the embryo. The embryo is made of three parts The shoot, the root and fixed central bit from where the growing remains within the seed. One can used your expressions idea to prove the three expressions are the same substance, for the shoot grows upwards towards the light, The root grows downwards seeking the darkness where the water and foods are. Hence the seed has two comforters, the shoot and the root. As an Christian agricultural teacher, I spent months teaching this simile and applying to Jesus and how we Christians also live, as trees too. Sure the human King Tyre functioned as a guarding cherub. But it also says the other simile story as well. But Dave never considers the simile properly. The devils are termed "shad" a Hebrew word meaning "teat" from which "milk" come forth. Once needs to explore what "milk" is as a simile, and what the "teat" is as a simile, to learn why the demon is termed "shad". But instead you insist in following Jewish inventions and precepts invented stories of Jewish men. They say Lilith is some offspring from Adam having sex with we assume other creatures from heaven for 130 years while he was remorsing his one and only sin. You don't expect me to support this Jewish dribble on the shedim, and their origins do you? It's not in the Hebrew torah, so it not inspired. Was not written by God, did not come to us from men inspired to write what God wanted them to write. But the simile of a human sinning like a cherub was sinning, is written in Scripture. But Dave never considers the cherub can sin, nor do Jews. Though some consider this idea, its not universal. D" NO THANK YOU – I will stick with Messianic Judaism R" You don't support Messanic Judaism at all. I showed you a professor Messanic Jew talking of a real Father and a real SON using the term "dual Godhead", but you ignore the quote. ------------- D" So I just looked it up in the JEWISH ENCYLOPEDIA Saying – “Let’s see if you are factual – or just making up facts about Judaism” D" Search = Sinning shedim = Jewish demonology = Beelzebub and the shedim Don’t Forget – D Search – Sinning Angels = 2 articles about the idea belonging to the New Testament + Articles about Azazel – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6 RP" SHow me a link, post a passage where Jews write the "shedim chata" or "demons sin".
D" Easy –R" OK where is your evidence? You don't post any? SO much for " easy". I have tried to find Jewish stuff on Beelzebub, and on shedim and on Beelzebub sins, etc, but it's really, really hard, near impossible to find passages and links about these terms. You must have plenty because you fondly support these ideas? Show me some, about the Beelzebub and how the Beelzebub sin. RP" Stop changing your problems with Scripture to another twist. The problem is your creatures cannot morally sin. Is this correct? Did I say what you believe correctly? "your creatures cannot morally sin" ?D" Only you know what you mean by this religious talk The Beast is a beast = (yester ra) = go forth be fruitful and multiplyR" Are you a Jew so much you cannot fathom my words? Are you so steeped in your defintions you cannot understand my definitions? Why are you avoiding the question. "Yester RA" is some made up dribble which Jews write hardly anything about, and suddenly this is the doctrine of what sinning means? Jews do not even have an idea of sinning, they do not see chata as the missing of God's power in their lives. This is a different topic, so why are you refusing to answer my question? 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. (KJV) 1Jo 3:8 The human that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. So this says a human sins like the devil sins, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Do you agree the human sins like the devil sins? And I am not talking about yester ra, some made up Jewish invention about where sinning comes from. Sin is defined as the transgression of the law. Sin is defined as missing GOD in your life, you choose to miss having His powers flowing into your life. Such an act on your part, is your right to do so, what I call free will. The ability to reason and choose. John is saying the humans sin like the demons sin. The shedim has been sinning like humans sin from thr beginning. This implies the shedim choose to sin, from free will. What kinds of sinning do shedim do? The shedim lies. The shedim murders. The shedim possess human souls, tormenting the humans, so they act dysfunctionally. All of these sins are mentioned by Jesus and Jesus drove out many shedim from humans in His life on the earth. Why do you insist on following Jewish accounts rather than following the torah itself? You seem to love human commentaries rather than God's holy words. 1Jo 3:10 ....the children of the devil: What does this simile mean to you Dave? You say the shedim do not do much to humans, only tempt us to wander in the world. Not what John is saying here. Why did not ignore my 15 verses saying the "Everlasting chains of darkness" refer to the "chains of sin" ? Again you ignore anything that does not fit your bias. You do not follow precept upon precept, you pick and choose and follow your own bias. 1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, What is John saying here, that Cain is of the shedim ? The shedim sins. Cain sins. The shedim murder. Cain murders. 1Jo 3:14 ¶ We know that we have passed from death unto life, What is John saying here? The shedim love death. God loves life. The SINNING leads to death. Loving leads to living. John is saying the shedim sins, and loves death from this sinning, knowing it will soon become non-existent, the shedim continue sinning in spite of God. They make humans sin along with their own sinning. -------------------- Reading chabad.org about free will" Nevertheless, they are limited by their G‑d-given distinct nature and instincts. They may have very strong wills, but not truly free will. They may have strong personalities, but they are not able to override or change their character. Animals may perform destructive acts, but they cannot be considered morally culpable." So animals may do bad things, but the animals cannot morally sin. Same sentence, I write it differently. Dave refuses to understand. " Some attempt to compromise either the extent of G‑d’s knowledge21 while others question the reality of our free will.22 Small wonder that there are those who insist that we are better off leaving this mystery to simple faith, since intellectual prodding can only create more confusion" Yes Jews grapple too much on certain ideas... For G‑d, none of that holds. When we say He say “G‑d is One,” we don’t just mean that there is only one of Him; we mean that He is a perfect unity. In Maimonides’ words, “He is the knower, He is the knowing, and He is the knowledge.” What? More than one of Him? So we ponder confusion, and Dave refuses to discuss if shedim can "morally culpable." for their yester ra. In a simple mind, this is sinning like humans sin. I cannot find any reference anywhere to Jews writing whether shedim sin like humans sin. Are we to even go looking for human traditions, when the torah is clearly before us? Dave seems to want more... Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Oct 29, 2022 0:31:14 GMT -5
As I thought, you do not consider similes D" (Deuteronomy 32:4). Why don’t you argue Jesus is a rock? R" The rock here is "tsuwr" which is a simile of the Father So the scripture is about God – not the rock?Jesus is the Lamb – is the scripture about Jesus or the Lamb? Jesus is the branch – is the scripture about Jesus or a stick of wood?If Jesus is a branch, He is also a SEED OK – is the scripture about Jesus or the seed?
D" But for Ezk 28 – The King of Tyre cannot be a cherub covering his people with outstretched wings R" correct, but that is a simile and what a simile does. But one also needs to study the other stories of the simile too. Dave does not do this. The King of Tyre is the cherub – is the scripture about the King of Tyre – or the cherub?Sure the human King Tyre functioned as a guarding cherub. But it also says the other simile story as well. But Dave never considers the simile properly. You have ZERO consistency -------------------------------------- you insist in following Jewish inventions and precepts invented stories of Jewish men. I ADMIT IT – I accept Jewish Theology and Demonology Because it was/is the CONTEXT of Jesus Christ and the disciples Because it was/is the Theology and demonology of Jesus and His disciples
They say Lilith is some offspring from Adam having sex with we assume other creatures from heaven for 130 years while he was remorsing his one and only sin. You don't expect me to support this Jewish dribble on the shedim LIE – MISSREPRESENT – TWIST – you are NOT honest – you bear false witness – and do it deliberately The story you quote is prefaced as a LEGEND------------- D" So I just looked it up in the JEWISH ENCYLOPEDIA Saying – “Let’s see if you are factual – or just making up facts about Judaism” D" Search = Sinning shedim = Jewish demonology = Beelzebub and the shedim Don’t Forget – D Search – Sinning Angels = 2 articles about the idea belonging to the New Testament + Articles about Azazel – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6 RP" SHow me a link, post a passage where Jews write the "shedim chata" or "demons sin". D" Easy – R" OK where is your evidence? You don't post any?
SO much for "easy".LIE – MISSREPRESENT – TWIST – you are NOT honest – you bear false witness – and do it deliberately You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forum Each time you present CRAP – I will NOT replyIF – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will not understand scripture I have tried to find Jewish stuff on Beelzebub, and on shedim and on Beelzebub sins, etc, but it's really, really hard, near impossible to find passages and links about these terms. W HY DON’T YOU JUST STUDY THE SOURCE?RP" Stop changing your problems with Scripture to another twist. The problem is your creatures cannot morally sin. Is this correct? Did I say what you believe correctly? "your creatures cannot morally sin" ? D" Only you know what you mean by this religious talk The Beast is a beast = (yester ra) = go forth be fruitful and multiply R" Are you a Jew so much you cannot fathom my words? Are you so steeped in your defintions you cannot understand my definitions? Why are you avoiding the question. ANSWER – The bane elohiym of Gen 6 SINNED by reproducing out of their kindThey fathered the Nephilim and made chimeras They are the cause of the Flood – at which 90% were imprisoned Leaving 10 % to remain to father the Rephiem – and become the evil spirits / demons / shedim These creatures are the ‘other gods’ of the Levant – and are all pagan deities – all false gods It is the same answer I have given you 100 times – it will never change"Yester RA" is some made up dribble which Jews write hardly anything about,Why do you call the commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply dribble – is this your opinion of scripture?1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. (KJV) So this says a human sins like the devil sins, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Do you agree the human sins like the devil sins? YEP – totally agree – whoever chooses WORLD over God is of the WORLDR" Are you a Jew so much you cannot fathom my words? Are you so steeped in your defintions you cannot understand my definitions? Sin is defined as the transgression of the law. Sin is defined as missing GOD in your life, IF I knew what you mean it might be simpler – your definitions change as your need them toYour satan is a sinner – and opposes God – Why is it a sin to obey God? Anyone opposing man opposes God – except when God opposes man? It is a sin to oppose man – be when God does it God is not a sinner? IF I knew what you mean it might be simpler – your definitions change as your need them to---------------------- What kinds of sinning do shedim do? The shedim lies. – lying is not a sin – and the serpent did not lie to EveThe shedim murders. – Entropy – the spoiler
The shedim possess human souls, tormenting the humans, so they act dysfunctionally. YES – possession does occur – never by force – always by invitation -------------------------- You say the shedim do not do much to humans, only tempt us to wander in the world. Not what John is saying here. LIE – MISSREPRESENT – TWIST – you are NOT honest – you bear false witness – and do it deliberately You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forum----------------------- Why did not ignore my 15 verses saying the "Everlasting chains of darkness" refer to the "chains of sin" ? Nice sermon – not on topic – we are discussing the bane elohiym being held in chains in a prison --------------------
Reading chabad.org about free will
"Nevertheless, they are limited by their G‑d-given distinct nature and instincts. They may have very strong wills, but not truly free will. They may have strong personalities, but they are not able to override or change their character. Animals may perform destructive acts, but they cannot be considered morally culpable."
So animals may do bad things, but the animals cannot morally sin. Same sentence, I write it differently.
Dave refuses to understand. BEAST do bad things, but are not morally sinning – I agree
If a cow crashes you fence to eat your garden – it is not a sin – it is just (yester ra) If a lion eats an antelope – it is not a sin – it is survival – (yester ra)
But you write it differently? – how else can it be?
So we ponder confusion, and Dave refuses to discuss if shedim can "morally culpable." for their yester ra. What – you just posted that BEAST do not morally sin But – you don’t understand why I agree? It is really hard to grasp what you believe – your theology changes daily
For G‑d, none of that holds. When we say He say “G‑d is One,” we don’t just mean that there is only one of Him; we mean that He is a perfect unity. In Maimonides’ words, “He is the knower, He is the knowing, and He is the knowledge.”
What? More than one of Him? YEP – as you pointed out the Jews have a duality of the male god-head – YWHY-YESUAH – God / Christ The Jews also have the female aspect of God that comes amoung the people to minister to the children of God – the shekinah – the Holy Spirit – the Spirit of God Duality God / Christ + shekinah Holy Spirit = Trinity YHWY-YESUAH-Shekinah God - Christ – Holy Spirit CHRISTIAN TRINITY
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 16:30:09 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Like I said, you have no real understanding of poetry
You have not posted a poem you wrote years ago
So I can only assume you do not understand poetry or how poems work.
Rob wrote " If Jesus is a branch, He is also a SEED Dave replies" OK – is the scripture about Jesus or the seed? R" Jesus is about both. The purpose of poetry is to make things difficult to fathom, easier to understand using word pictures humans can relate to. That is called a simile. By using this word I am also using metaphor, but I like SIMILE better because the word picture is SIMILAR to the object it's trying to teach us, but NOT exactly the same.
Jesus is NOT technically a branch, or a seed or a rock, these are SIMILES. For example when you place a foundation rock down, and lay another rock on top, you are creating a SIMILE of how the GOD HEAD works as ONE structure. And Jewish writings agree with this idea I quote "When we say He say “G‑d is One,” we don’t just mean that there is only one of Him; we mean that He is a perfect unity." If that isn't the biggest confusing idea I have read from Jewish writings. So maybe the Jewish professor was adding only more details, which few Jews discuss.
The real Father and real Son with dual godhead. Really Jews are difficult people to fathom, they do not discuss their views in infinite detail and you cannot read them easily, if at all. Unlike the prophet Mrs White, reading material on what SDA follow is easy, you read Scritpure verses and see how they are detailed in Ellen White comentaries. If I wanted to examine the Ezekiel 28 commentaries Jews write, in the midrash for instance, is this easily achievable? No it's not. Anyway Dave this is one example, that the Jews do in fact support a FAMILY concept of Elohiym, with Father Son and Holy Spirit, and do not see as you view is, that the Son and the HS are mere expressions of the Father.
D"The King of Tyre is the cherub – is the scripture about the King of Tyre – or the cherub? R" The King of Tyre only functions like a cherub. The human is NOT a cherub, but is a SIMILE of a cherub. Again you are mixing poetry similes. There is always two stories in a word picture in poetry.
D"You have ZERO consistency R" No I don't Dave, you simply do not understand SIMILES of how poetry works.
I will give you an example of SIMILES in a poem I wrote aged 17, many, many years ago and the explanation of Both stories in the SIMILE.
Day One Mighty light in labour, Dawns upon the earth, Slowly she awakens, Creation into renewed birth. One humble insect, On wing toiling long, Diligently she gathers, Her portion of nature's fuel, Among coloured rainbows, She sings buzzing song, Obediently her faithful work, Reflects His patterned rule. No fruits of her work, Are easy to see, Let us question our role, Of grace from Thee. One humble servant, Who sings Scripture's Word Diligently he gathers, His manna of Holy Fuel, Faith outward active, For he surrendered heard, Responds without a question, To our blessed Saviour's Rule. For faith is nothing Anyone can see, We should be a worker, In our Lord's mercy.
The similes in these Creation poems are easier to see, and highly detailed. The honey bee is a SIMILE of the human Bee, collecting Faith, which is a SIMILE of honey.
The literal SIMILE for faith shown in the poem is "manna" a "holy fuel" and this is a SIMILE of "Scriptures WORD".
The honey of the WORD is ingested when you surrender to the holy feul (the author does not explain how this is achieved, written so long ago, probably did not fully understand all there is about faith??)
There is in the conclusion a summary of faith, as a worker honey bee in our Lord's mercy.
Why is honey a SIMILE of mercy? There is a suggestion of the deeper meaning, that every day "Creation into renewed birth" is a SIMILE clue to grace and mercy. It suggests that GOD has to supply His love daily to sustain creation, so human honey bees diligently gather the holy words from Scripture to ingest the faith when we surrender to the promise of manna for that moment.
"She sings buzzing song" is a word play and interesting notion for human honey bees. We have to daily have a singing praise of diligence in our minds, a constant knowing of God whom we seek in our work, looking for the flowers God have placed about our world for us to find.
This idea is written as "among coloured rainbows", we too seek and find opportunities to praise God and seek this love. -------------
Mt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Here is a poem Jesus speaks to the Jews listening nearby. Hebrew is a fun language. The painter went to paint a painting with paint. They love to play on words that a similar. The seed here is the SIMILE of JESUS, a little part of HIS words that come with promised power. Just as the honey the human honey bee seeks, the seed is another example of the same idea.
There are two types of seed, the monocot and the dicot. These seed leaves come out in different places. In the monocot seed, the leaf of straightness stays in the ground in the darkness of sin, and the shoot of Jesus grows upwards towards the Father in you, who simply allow this process to happen, when we call surrendering to the faith process. In the dicot seed, the two leaves are seen above the process of sins, and you allow Jesus to grow faster, as the leaves become green with ability to soak up the Father's light. One has to be careful how much of a SIMILE works in the poem, because there is always limitations in the poetry simile. -----------------
D"I ADMIT IT – I accept Jewish Theology and Demonology Because it was/is the CONTEXT of Jesus Christ and the disciples Because it was/is the Theology and demonology of Jesus and His disciples
RP" They say Lilith is some offspring from Adam having sex with we assume other creatures from heaven for 130 years while he was remorsing his one and only sin. You don't expect me to support this Jewish dribble on the shedim
D" LIE – MISSREPRESENT – TWIST – you are NOT honest – you bear false witness – and do it deliberately The story you quote is prefaced as a LEGEND R" OK so you limit yourself here and there collecting your honey making sure its pure.
SO hard to do. I prefer to read sola Scriptoria ONLY, all the words are pure, all is honey and I do not have to second guess if I am off the track in the reading and logic I ingest. How do you know the stuff you read in NOT inspired? YOu don't. It could also be myth and legend.
Like the Jewish ideas on the 7 Noahach laws for instance. They down play the 10 moral laws of God, even though the finger of GOD wrote this 10 rules of love.
D" LIE – MISSREPRESENT – TWIST – you are NOT honest – you bear false witness – and do it deliberately You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forum Each time you present CRAP – I will NOT reply R" Dave I have spend hours trying to read Jewish commentaries of angels, demons and stuff looking for if they understand that demons sin like humans sin. I can't find anything anywhere. Really why do you insist in reading humans commentaries? I was hoping you found some sentences, because I cannot find any. D" WHY DON’T YOU JUST STUDY THE SOURCE? R" I do, is this a link to Jewish midrash where one can easily search for words in the website?
Jewish searches in their websites fail to satisfy. It's as if they do not want you to cross reference their doctrines.
Than they insist most stuff is oral torah, now written down, how convenient....to invent more stuff...
D"ANSWER – The bane elohiym of Gen 6 SINNED by reproducing out of their kind R" Dave you cannot write that. You say the archons cannot sin like humans sin. They were only doing the multiply and go forth thing. Why do you now say the archons sin? And than you imply only one sin, so the rest of their character is sinless is it?
I will not entry your other sentences, as this first one is false. Archons cannot sin like humans sin. This is your view, is it not? When I first pointed out your Gnostic writing "the archon sinned in it's entirety" you did not like my idea, so you took this to mean, arrogant, not reall sinning at all. So Dave what are you going to do?
Your archons cannot really sin like humans sin? Maybe this idea of yours is false. Maybe the archons can sin like humans sin, as John says. Than you have come over to my view.
D"These creatures are the ‘other gods’ of the Levant – and are all pagan deities – all false gods R" I tried to get you to positively agree that other elohiym gods exist, but you refuse, now you agree? Are you coming over to my side, that the archons are really false gods, other elohiym powers, knowing good and evil, because they are sinning shedim as John writes?
RP" "Yester RA" is some made up dribble which Jews write hardly anything about, D" Why do you call the commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply dribble – is this your opinion of scripture? R" Typical Dave, you can't even read sentences I write.
I did not write about "the commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply " did I? I am referring to the 2 only verses that have RA and yester in them, not close together, but Jews assume whole doctrines based on these verses.
While "Aven" has dozens of verses, and not a single use of them as "epigenetic potential for RA".
I seek solid "line upon line" for my ideas, not this made up dribble of "two verses" which does not use "yester ra" at all, it is an invented idea of the Jewish traditions.
RP" 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. (KJV) So this says a human sins like the devil sins, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Do you agree the human sins like the devil sins?
D" YEP – totally agree – whoever chooses WORLD over God is of the WORLD R" I see. Do you agree the shedim also sin like humans sin?
D"IF I knew what you mean it might be simpler – your definitions change as your need them to R" Because you see the Father sinning, you change your views of sin. When the Father asks you to do something evil, it is considered good? I do not have my Father sinning. He obeys His own laws of love as He expects His creatures to. The 10 moral directions of love are universal. God obeys them too. You do not like this idea, for you see whole examples of God allowing bad things to happen to humans. Scripture calls this God's strange act. But you insist on knowing why this happens, so you have a Father who sins? or is associated with sin? or has a Department for doing the Father's bidding, even saying sinning is good if GOD allows it to happen?
Think if you can of my view.
If the angels have free will, and sinned like humans sin, than God gives them a chance to repent, like humans are given a chance to repent. so this war continues for maybe 6,000 years. One has to allow the sinning angel time to get his reasoning straight. SO than what happens? When the sinning angels have finally locked their reasoning into one decision for their eternal destiny? God banishes them to a lonely rock, once lovely, but becomes void and dark, because God leaves the sinning angels to their own sinning. Notice there is no locking up sinning angels because they sinned for the first time. God is love, not a tyrant. -------------------
RP"What kinds of sinning do shedim do? The shedim lies. D" – lying is not a sin – and the serpent did not lie to Eve RP" The shedim murders. D" – Entropy – the spoiler Rp" The shedim possess human souls, tormenting the humans, so they act dysfunctionally. D" YES – possession does occur – never by force – always by invitation R" Look at your answers Dave, you have watered down your pet archons into mere friendly creatures who have respect for humans. So telling lies is not a sin, is it?
Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
What is a "ed" ?
Ex 23:1 ¶ Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Somebody that brings a false report.
Ps 35:11 ¶ False witnesses did rise up;
What is a false witness?
Pr 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies,
And what is a lie?
Pr 14:5 ¶ A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie;
So God does not kazab, or make lies.
Job 24:25 And if it be not so now, who will make me a liar, and make my speech nothing worth?
So kazab is when your speech has nothing...no power...no truth, no uplifting in it.
Ps 78:36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
Kazab, when one flatters you with speech.
Pr 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Here is a difinition of kazab, adding to your speech,
embellishment, flattery, confusion, double negatives, etc.
Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually,...like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Kazab is a speech of water that fails to supply thirst.
In PNG the natives call this "mouse water" a great saying.
So yes the serpent did "lie" he spoke riddles, used false report, added to God's words and negated what God said. As Jeff aptly says the serpent decieved the woman with the truth, is another way of saying the serpent was clever to twist what God said into a false report, making the speech of God dry up and lack promise.
D"YES – possession does occur – never by force – always by invitation R" Yes the process is controlled by GOD intentionally otherwise the shedim would consume mankind. Such is the power and entropy of sin.
---------- D"Nice sermon – not on topic – we are discussing the bane elohiym being held in chains in a prison R" What do you mean, not on topic? You say the "everlasting chains of darkness" is a literal locking sinning angels from further sinning. I says the Scripture says the everlasting chains of darkness refers to the chains of sin, and that sinning angels are free to enslave humans with sinning.
D"If a cow crashes you fence to eat your garden – it is not a sin – it is just (yester ra) R" What is better to say Dave, is the cow does things we humans consider dysfunctional to us and God, hence is a sin, but the cow is not "considered morally culpable." is the way the Jewish writing say this, is correct. The cows sin is not recorded against the cow, for it's spirit goeth downward, not upward as in the case of humans. How do we know if a creature is "considered morally culpable" ? When the Scritpure uses the term "sin" with the creature? Yes
1 JOhn 3:8 says humans sin as the shedim sin, so both creatures are "considered morally culpable" for their sinning. DUH really Dave, do you consider the verse at all?
A angel living in heaven next to God, praising and singing and talking and with free will, is not the same as a lowly cow. The cherub that sinned, is as guilty of sin, as the humans that sin, as John says.
D"Jews have a duality of the male god-head R" And yet they hate Christians with their polytheism, which we do not have. Really so technically difficult Jews are to fathom? Could we get a Jewish detail article on these wordings of theirs? I doubt this. They just keep on keeping you in confusion. SHalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Oct 30, 2022 11:35:37 GMT -5
Like I said, you have no real understanding of poetry D"The King of Tyre is the cherub – is the scripture about the King of Tyre – or the cherub? R" The King of Tyre only functions like a cherub. The human is NOT a cherub, but is a SIMILE of a cherub. Again you are mixing poetry similes. There is always two stories in a word picture in poetry. Jesus is NOT technically a branch, or a seed or a rock, these are SIMILES.
Correct – in each simile = Jesus is the subject – the lamb, the rock, the seed, and the branch - Are NOT New and different entities – Are not new and different people – Are not a new and different subjects - in each simile = Jesus is the subject
But for Ezk 28 – The King of Tyre is the subject – (3 chapters in a row – 83 verse in a row – The King of Tyre is the subject) – but this time the simile IS a different entity, a different person The King of Tyre in no longer the subject – your simile is a new subject that has come alive as a new god
D"You have ZERO consistency R" No I don't Dave, you simply do not understand SIMILES of how poetry works. ONE OF US DOES NOT UNDERSTAND ONE OF US FORCE SIMILES INTO THIS VERSE TO FIT THEIR SATAN DOCTRINE -------------
D"I ADMIT IT – I accept Jewish Theology and Demonology Because it was/is the CONTEXT of Jesus Christ and the disciples Because it was/is the Theology and demonology of Jesus and His disciples
RP" They say Lilith is some offspring from Adam having sex with we assume other creatures from heaven for 130 years while he was remorsing his one and only sin. You don't expect me to support this Jewish dribble on the shedim D" LIE – MISSREPRESENT – TWIST – you are NOT honest – you bear false witness – and do it deliberately The story you quote is prefaced as a LEGEND R" OK so you limit yourself here and there collecting your honey making sure its pure.
It is called academic honesty – how arrogant to criticize anything without knowing what your talking about Facts are facts – and honesty is honesty – why can’t to take the time to know the difference -----------------------------------
I prefer to read sola Scriptoria ONLY, all the words are pure, all is honey and I do not have to second guess if I am off the track in the reading and logic I ingest. EASY ANSWER 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for restoration, and for training in righteousness,
How do you know the stuff you read in NOT inspired? YOu don't. It could also be myth and legend. EASY ANSWER Isa 28:9 To whom will He teach knowledge? To whom will He explain the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just taken from the breast? Isa 28:10 For it must be ‘precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.’ Isa 28:11 For through stammering lips and a foreign tongue He will speak to this people, Isa 28:12 To whom He said, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary, here is repose”—but they would not listen. Isa 28:13 So the word of Adonai is to them ‘precept on precept, precept on precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.’
The message is never given only once – the message is never just one verse The same message is given over and over – replayed over and over – line by line – repeated – so even the most dull can finally understand.
Your claim there is only one verse about faith is ABSOLUTE NONESENSE Your claim that two words taken out of context of one verse make a new god is REDICULAS -----------------------------
I prefer to read sola Scriptoria ONLY, all the words are pure, all is honey and I do not have to second guess if I am off the track in the reading and logic I ingest. EASY ANSWER Your – your limited view – is not a complete doctrine – and you are unable to answer simple questions Judaism is the foundation of Christianity – Christ did not come to rewrite the ahl/OT (Mat 5:17-18)
1Th 5:16 Rejoice always, 1Th 5:17 pray constantly, 1Th 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Messiah Yeshua. 1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 1Th 5:20 do not despise prophetic messages, 1Th 5:21 but test all things, hold fast to what is good, 1Th 5:22 keep away from every kind of evil.
HERE is the difference between you and I – I believe scripture Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth, Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse—
ME – all creation MUST point to the Creator – things only happened one way – GOD’S WAY YOU – cannot admit that science is uncovering – revealing – an Intelligent Design YOU - claim there is only evidence of your satan YOU – praise a false god
Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark. Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image in the form of mortal man and birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.
ME – there is a spiritual realm – alive and active YOU – only WORLD – only FLESH – no spiritual ------------------------------------
Like the Jewish ideas on the 7 Noahach laws for instance. They down play the 10 moral laws of God, even though the finger of GOD wrote this 10 rules of love. Every time I present a Jewish Rabbi to you – you just say he is wrong Either the Rabbi does not know Judaism as well as you – or you are delusional You argue from ignorance – you make up fatcs – you are anti-semetic and refuse to admit it Your argument that every Jew must stop believing the in YHWY-YESUAH – to believe in "JESUS ONLY" is REDICULAS and anti-semetic
Messianic Judaism = Judaism + the Messiah Jesus is NOT a different god - Jesus Christ was God incarnate Your claim real Messanic Judaism denies Judaism and must adopt a Roman Catholic satan doctrine – is REDICULAS – it is satanic
D" LIE – MISSREPRESENT – TWIST – you are NOT honest – you bear false witness – and do it deliberately You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forum R" Dave I have spend hours trying to read Jewish commentaries of angels, demons and stuff looking for if they understand that demons sin like humans sin. I can't find anything anywhere. Really why do you insist in reading humans commentaries? I was hoping you found some sentences, because I cannot find any.
D" WHY DON’T YOU JUST STUDY THE SOURCE? R" I do, is this a link to Jewish midrash where one can easily search for words in the website? PROOF you are dishonest and make up factoids to support your position When have you studied the Kabbalah with me? I offered King Solomon to you – your denial drowned out any discussion You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forum ----------------
Jewish searches in their websites fail to satisfy. It's as if they do not want you to cross reference their doctrines. You are just looking for a shortcut – easy answers – you should study scripture – learn to translate – understand what you are trying to criticize – speak from and educated view – instead of just speaking out your ass
Than they insist most stuff is oral torah, now written down, how convenient....to invent more stuff... They are God's choosen people - your Jealiouse is showing ----------------------------
D"ANSWER – The bane elohiym of Gen 6 SINNED by reproducing out of their kind R" Dave you cannot write that. You say the archons cannot sin like humans sin. They were only doing the multiply and go forth thing. IF YOU QUOTE ME DO IT ACCURATELY – and when they multiplies out of their kind – they sinned – disobeyed God’s commandment to BEAST
Gen 1:24 Then God said, “Let the land bring forth living creatures according to their species—livestock, crawling creatures and wild animals, according to their species.” And it happened so. Gen 1:25 God made the wild animals according to their species, the livestock according to their species, and everything that crawls on the ground, each according to its species. And God saw that it was good.
Why do you now say the archons sin? DUH – Gen 6 bane elohiym (archon) fathered the Nephilim - reproducing out of their kind If – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will not understand scripture
And than you imply only one sin, SIN = transgression of God commandments – disobeying God
so the rest of their character is sinless is it? If – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will not understand scripture Those 200 or so bane elohiym and their Gigori are locked away in prision The 10% that remain are Human + ben elohiym demi gods – Nephilim and Rephiem – all mixed with humanity
When I first pointed out your Gnostic writing "the archon sinned in it's entirety" you did not like my idea, so you took this to mean, arrogant, not reall sinning at all. So Dave what are you going to do? YOU POSTED THIS GNOSTIC TEXT? – I doubt your truthfulness
You refuse to discuss what ‘sinned against the entirety means’ – how does the BEAST sin against rocks and trees – stars and planets – galaxies and universes = ENTROPY ---------------------------
D"These creatures are the ‘other gods’ of the Levant – and are all pagan deities – all false gods R" I tried to get you to positively agree that other elohiym gods exist, but you refuse, now you agree? Are you coming over to my side, that the archons are really false gods WHAT IS THIS - YOU HONEST MAN
I have always taught that the ‘other gods’ of the Levant are archon You – pretend they didn’t exist – not real – imaginary
AGAIN – THERE ARE NOT TWO GODS IN HEAVEN AT WAR WITH ONE ANOTHER All of the ‘other gods’ = Archon – created beings – the serpent race – on/in earth (all physical creation)
RP" "Yester RA" is some made up dribble which Jews write hardly anything about, D" Why do you call the commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply dribble – is this your opinion of scripture? I did not write about "the commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply " did I? While "Aven" has dozens of verses, and not a single use of them as "epigenetic potential for RA". Correct – you refuse to discuss “A” – you have to switch it to “B” so you can argue against yourself A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF YOUR WORD GAMES ---------------------------
I do not have my Father sinning. He obeys His own laws of love as He expects His creatures to. The 10 moral directions of love are universal. God obeys them too. Why does your FEEL GOOD GOD command / order a genocide 7 times? Why does your FEEL GOOD GOD KILL AND MURDER?
Your FEEL GOOD GOD opposes man on occasion – your definition of opposing God for your satan Why do you teach your god opposes himself? Why do you teach that your god is satan?
2 Sam 24:1 + 1 Chr 21:1 – your god = satan / or your satan = god Or your word games and flexible definitions are meaningless -------------------
D"Jews have a duality of the male god-head R" And yet they hate Christians with their polytheism, which we do not have. YOU FORCE IT INTO POLYTHIESM – God and Christ cannot be the same entity, YOUR PROOF = They talk to one another – Christ prayed to the father
Really so technically difficult Jews are to fathom? Could we get a Jewish detail article on these wordings of theirs? I doubt this. They just keep on keeping you in confusion. You say this because you do NOT know your scripture as a whole – you know the few verses that support your Ellen White Doctrine – based on Catholic doctrine – with some JW and Bahia Islam thrown in for measure If you spent as much time actually studying scripture like a genuine student – as you do criticizing others from a position of ignorance – perhaps you could rise to their level of understanding
Than they insist most stuff is oral torah, now written down, how convenient....to invent more stuff... It was PENTECOSTAL JEWS that wrote the Torah – they walked and talked with God – one on one It was PENTECOSTAL MESSANIC JEWS that wrote the agl/NT You are just jealous – because as a believing SDA – you refuse to let it ever happen to you Pentecostal Judaism and Pentecostal Christianity are things of the past you claim – not relevant to SDA theology – works of your satan – satanic
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2022 14:45:30 GMT -5
D" But for Ezk 28 – The King of Tyre is the subject – (3 chapters in a row – 83 verse in a row – The King of Tyre is the subject) – but this time the simile IS a different entity, a different person The King of Tyre in no longer the subject – your simile is a new subject that has come alive as a new godR" Is this an excuse Dave? You are also lying, or sinning by presenting a false report about Ezekiel. There are no 3 chapters on only King Tyre. (1) Eze 27:1 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Each subject theme is reconized by this phrase "word""YHWH" "Amar" CHapter 27 is about the city of Tyre. Eze 27:2 Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus; Not the KING of Tyre. (2) Eze 28:1 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Next the PRINCE of TYRE is mentioned (3) Eze 28:11 ¶ Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king "malak" (ruler) of Tyrus, Next the RULER of Tyre is mentioned. (4) Eze 28:20 ¶ Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 21 Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it, Next the subject changes again to Zidon. Now I see a pattern in the way the LORD is speaking, first about the CITY in general. Next about the actual human PRINCE, the King of Tyre as a human. Than about the RULER over King Tyre, the Cherub who sinned, that is the real sinning power over PRINCE Tyre. And finally God speaks a prophecy against Zidon. There is 20 verses about the sinning cherub, who is a RULER over the PRINCE of Tyre.In fact if you study "Malak" in both verb and noun cases, each from has to mean uncompleted or completed actions of the same meaning. So "REIGN/ REIGNER " is the best fit for all verses of these word forms in the Bible. The word "nagiyd" is also different to "sar", which means "prince", so the titles of each part of Ezekiel is a little more complex than simply being 3 chapters on a single King Tyre, is false Dave. D" ONE OF US DOES NOT UNDERSTAND ONE OF US FORCE SIMILES INTO THIS VERSE TO FIT THEIR SATAN DOCTRINER" I see, write clearly how you see a simile in the Bible when it comes Dave. How do you know when Scritpure speaks of poetry parallels and similes? -------------------- D" Isa 28:13 So the word of Adonai is to them ‘precept on precept, precept on precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.’ The message is never given only once – the message is never just one verse The same message is given over and over – replayed over and over – line by line – repeated – so even the most dull can finally understand.R" That is false understanding of the verse Dave. God does not repeat over and over again His messages of truth. Maybe as a concept, yes I agree with you, but the not repeat the details over and over. Often He speaks truth ONCE. And you have to discover and search and dig up the precious pearl yourself. Learning how to receive salvation is the most important subject to a human enslaved in the everlasting chains of darkness, our chains of sin. And how easy is this topic presented in the OT? You begin quoting Isa 28:9 Isa 28:9 To whom will He teach "yarah".... what does this mean? 2Ch 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law. This verse is saying GOD is "emeth" a word related to "faith" and there is NO "yarah" priest, therefore without "torah". So the term "yarah" means to "teach" and the term "torah" means the "teachings". It's interesting the passage also speaks of the milk from the breast, the term is "shad", the same term used to describe "shad", the creatures who teach false teachings. Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: These verses tell you what the teacher teaching from the teachings should do. He should line up each precept unto the foundation stone, and add more stones upon the foundation makes sure each new teaching is in line with the foundation stone using a plumb bob. It's not saying the messages are repeated over and over many times, you have an entirely wrong assessment even how to read and study the teachings. Where is the saying Adam received salvation using faith? Where is the saying Noah received salvation using faith? Abraham was saved because of his faith, but the details of faith are missing. WHere is the theme of faith in the Moses? At best we catch little glimpses of the words faith, and GOD in His kindness unfolds his grand theme of salvation gradually, yes over and over, adding more details to the theme over time. D" Your claim there is only one verse about faith is ABSOLUTE NONESENSER" Really? Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.How often is this word used in the OT? 49 times Used for humans 2Ki 12:15 Moreover they reckoned not with the men, into whose hand they delivered the money to be bestowed on workmen: for they dealt faithfully 2Ki 22:7 Howbeit there was no reckoning made with them of the money that was delivered into their hand, because they dealt faithfully. 2Ch 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart. 2Ch 34:12 And the men did the work faithfully: Pr 12:17 ¶ He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: Pr 28:20 ¶ A faithful man shall abound with blessings: These are all the "faith" contexts with humans, a total of 6 verses, not many that say a human is saved by His Faithful ness to God. How many verses say a man lives by His Faith? ONE. D" Your claim that two words taken out of context of one verse make a new god is REDICULASR" Funny, not more than 2 posts ago, you said the shedim are false gods. Are you consistent Dave? D" Your – your limited view – is not a complete doctrine – and you are unable to answer simple questionsR" SOLA SCRIPTORIA is perfectly capable of answering every question we need to know answers to. D "Judaism is the foundation of Christianity – Christ did not come to rewrite the ahl/OT (Mat 5:17-18)R" Judaism is a place, not a pile of teachings, Christ had to unravel the talmud from the torah, and bring the torah into it's true light, apart from the talmud that mudded the torah with precepts of men and traditions, so in essence Jesus really was presenting a different slant and Jesus was from Judah. D" Your argument that every Jew must stop believing the in YHWY-YESUAH – to believe in Jesus only is REDICULAS and anti-semeticR" OK show me a MESSANIC Jewish website, with dozens of doctrines fully explained using the torah only. I should be happy than to read and follow this, as Messanic Jews is the same as spiritual Jews from which I am, a spiritual Hebrew following only the OT and NT torah, as any Messanic supporter also does. Does such a website exist, that is so easy to read and study their doctrines? You can go to m.egwwritings.org/ANd find anything in great details on any topic the SDA have with out prophet Ellen White, search any word and read any theme, so easily in minutes, all fully indexed and electronic reading of over 700,000 words. Is there a Messanic Jewish website like this? D" Your claim realm Messanic Judaism denies Judaism and must adopt a Roman Catholic satan doctrine – is REDICULAS – it is satanicR" Are you saying they don't? SHow me the links.... D" When have you studied the Kabbalah with me? I offered King Solomon to you – your denial drowned out any discussion You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forumR" Are you for real? Kabbalah is not torah, are you saying the Messanic people also still study the Kabbalah along with their torah? ANd king Solomon about shedim is weird, not in harmony with torah. Do Messanic people really adopt King Solomon scroll with the common torah as well? Show me some links to Messanic people than. Gordan Nemehiah claims to be Messanic Jew? and I did n't like his articles on elohiym? Hmm? But I welcome any links to Messanic people? Have you got any? D" You are just looking for a shortcut – easy answers – you should study scripture R" Sorry, but time is limited, and if you click on my link m.egwwritings.org/The themes are easy to read, although some themes are too big to read easily. D" I have always taught that the ‘other gods’ of the Levant are archonR" Than you also have a great controversy over false gods sinning and over the true GOD who never sins. But you really do not like me saying this, but you are saying it also ? D" AGAIN – THERE ARE NOT TWO GODS IN HEAVEN AT WAR WITH ONE ANOTHERR" Really Dave. nit picking exactness, OK agree, but there used to be. The other gods’ of the Levant are archon, are now fighting GOD limited to earth, who try to destroy humans with sinning. But you do not even see these false other gods’ of the Levant are archon, as opposing GOD in heaven in their sinning. And yet you have these archon false gods sinning along with humans? I don't get you. Now you say the other gods’ of the Levant are archons, are sinning as humans sin? Are you consistent? Can you rewrite your terms and ideas clearly? D" Why does your FEEL GOOD GOD KILL AND MURDER? R" He doesn't and never has. So does your "Gnostic Father God" kill and murder humans Dave? D" Your FEEL GOOD GOD opposes man on occasion R" Yes every time a human sins, we oppose GOD, by definition. ( but often for a saved person our missing is not unto death, though technically a sin, God's grace covers over us, while we have relationship to God) D "Why do you teach you god opposes himself? Why do you teach that your god is satan?R" Now who plays word games? "Oppose" is the meaning of Hebrew "satan". You cannot oppose ALONE. There is a minimum of two Beings for the term oppose to exist. On a tennis match BOTH become opposers of each other, a friendly contest. On the heavenly scene, TWO elohiym powers are required for the term "oppose" to exist. One elohiym power opposes the other elohiym power, they both oppose each other. The reason for this opposition is because of sin. You cannot be an OPPOSER on your own. Not possible. An opposer always is in opposition to some other being. So you sentence you wrote makes no sense "Why do you teach you god opposes himself?" God has never sinned, never violated the royal law, that God also upholds, so cannot oppose His own laws. D" Or your word games and flexible definitions are meaninglessR" Makes sense to me, only you do not read my sentences correctly and mock and misquote me. You see your Gnostic Father as sinning, telling humans to sin and murder, is all OK if GOD says so. I do not see the verses this way. We have been through this before. My Father is sinless, and has never tempted any human to sin, nor has ever broken His own royal law teachings of love. My Father is always loving. D" YOU FORCE IT INTO POLYTHIESM – God and Christ cannot be the same entity, YOUR PROOF = They talk to one another – Christ prayed to the fatherR" And Daves view, is the Father on earth is praying to the Father in heaven, a sort of self talk. Are you mad Dave? Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; Joh 17:8 ...and they have believed that thou didst send me. Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; Joh 17:11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Joh 17:22 ...even as we are one: Joh 17:23 ...as thou hast loved me. Joh 17:24 ...for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Joh 17:25 ...but I have known thee, So how can a Father expression know a Father expression from eternity as two different entities? Really Dave, you make up stuff. D" You say this because you do NOT know your scripture as a wholeR" You think, I study every verse on a word Dave, even Gordan Nemeniah did not like 6 verses out of the thousand on elohiym. and so ignores them. D" perhaps you could rise to their level of understandingR" What and accept their human precepts and traditions? The easiest way to settle this, is for you to show me your Messanic people as a link, with lots of doctrines fully explained. Can you do this? Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Oct 31, 2022 12:24:49 GMT -5
Simile - (Definitions from Oxford Languages) Noun - a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., as brave as a lion, crazy like a fox ).
The man is as brave as a lion – the lion does not become a new and different person The man is crazy like a fox – the fox does not become a new person
(google) What is a simile easy definition? A simile is a phrase that uses a comparison to describe.
For example, “life” can be described as similar to “a box of chocolates.” You know you've spotted one when you see the words like or as in a comparison
Life is as a box of chocolates – the box of chocolates does not become a new person
R” Jesus is NOT technically a branch, or a seed or a rock, these are SIMILES. Correct Jesus is like a branch – the branch does not come alive as a new person Jesus is like a seed – the seed does not come alive as a new person Jesus is like a rock – the seed does not come alive as a new person
But Ezk 28 – the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person
R" Is this an excuse Dave? You are also lying, or sinning by presenting a false report about Ezekiel. There are no 3 chapters on only King Tyre.
Ezk 26 = Prophecy Against Tyre Ezk 27 = A Lament for Tyre Ezk 28 = Prophecy Against the Prince of Tyre Ezk 28 = A Lament over the King of Tyre YEP 3 chapters in a row all about The KINGDOM OF TYRE and its KING ZERO references to your satan god -------------------
D" Isa 28:13 So the word of Adonai is to them ‘precept on precept, precept on precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.’ The message is never given only once – the message is never just one verse The same message is given over and over – replayed over and over – line by line – repeated – so even the most dull can finally understand. R" That is false understanding of the verse Dave.
God does not repeat over and over again His messages of truth. Maybe as a concept, yes I agree with you, but the not repeat the details over and over.
Often He speaks truth ONCE. And you have to discover and search and dig up the precious pearl yourself. Your claim that scripture is a secret – and that only you have the secret knowledge – is arrogant beyond compare -----------------
D"Your – your limited view – is not a complete doctrine – and you are unable to answer simple questions R" SOLA SCRIPTORIA is perfectly capable of answering every question we need to know answers to.
NOW WHO HAS AN EXCUSE To the questions – why is it a sin to obey God – why does God command a genocide – why does Ellen White deny the Second Coming of God – why does Ellen White contradict scripture – why did God leave 99% of the World to the Archon (other gods) – and if what happened in Gen 1:2-3 (Rev 12:1-5) was a sin, why did God call it tov?
Your doctrine is not complete
You can go to m.egwwritings.org/ ANd find anything in great details on any topic the SDA have with out prophet Ellen White, search any word and read any theme, so easily in minutes, all fully indexed and electronic reading of over 700,000 words.
Then why do you refuse to answer my questions – you just skip over them and pretend they were not asked of you – this is a 2 way discussion – isn’t it?
D"Judaism is the foundation of Christianity – Christ did not come to rewrite the ahl/OT (Mat 5:17-18) R" Judaism is a place, not a pile of teachings, ABSOLUTE NONSENSE – ANTI-SEMETIC
D"Your argument that every Jew must stop believing the in YHWY-YESUAH – to believe in Jesus only is REDICULAS and anti-semetic
D"Your claim realm Messanic Judaism denies Judaism and must adopt a Roman Catholic satan doctrine – is REDICULAS – it is satanic -----------------------
R" Are you for real? Kabbalah is not torah, Neither is Ellen White – yet you offer it as your own personal Kabbalah
Gordan Nemehiah claims to be Messanic Jew? and I did n't like his articles on elohiym? Of course not – you probably did not understand what he was talking about – he and I come from a different religion than you
D"You are just looking for a shortcut – easy answers – you should study scripture R" Sorry, but time is limited, and if you click on my link Not enough time to study scripture – the most asinine thing I have ever heard
D"I have always taught that the ‘other gods’ of the Levant are archon R" Than you also have a great controversy over false gods sinning and over the true GOD who never sins. But you really do not like me saying this, but you are saying it also ? Because you teach two gods in heaven opposing one another – a god of good and a god of evil ABSOLUTE NONSENSE You refuse to admit that Rom 1:19+ Psa 19:2 point to God’s Intelligent Design Another question you and Ellen White cannot answer - You give your praise to satan It is proof of your satan corrupting the world Why do you controdict scripture
D"AGAIN – THERE ARE NOT TWO GODS IN HEAVEN AT WAR WITH ONE ANOTHER R" Really Dave. nit picking exactness, OK agree, but there used to be. NEVER – ABSOLUTE NONSENSE – You just want to validate your satan as a god -----------------
D"Why does your FEEL GOOD GOD KILL AND MURDER? R" He doesn't and never has. Proof you have never read the ahl/OT for yourself
D"Your FEEL GOOD GOD opposes man on occasion R" Yes every time a human sins, we oppose GOD, by definition. NOT WHAT I SAID – God opposes man You teach anyone opposing man is opposing God
D"Why do you teach you god opposes himself? Why do you teach that your god is satan? R" Now who plays word games? YOU DO – answer the questions before you – if you have a complete theolofy
You cannot oppose ALONE. There is a minimum of two Beings for the term oppose to exist. YES - YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO PASS THE BLAME OFF ONTO YOUR SATAN ---------------------
D"YOU FORCE IT INTO POLYTHIESM – God and Christ cannot be the same entity, YOUR PROOF = They talk to one another – Christ prayed to the father R" And Daves view, is the Father on earth is praying to the Father in heaven, a sort of self talk. Are you mad Dave? REPEAT - D"YOU FORCE IT INTO POLYTHIESM – God and Christ cannot be the same entity You deny that your god can be in two places at the same time – while Judeo-Christianity teaches God is Omnipresent
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2022 14:45:24 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" Life is as a box of chocolates – the box of chocolates does not become a new person But Ezk 28 – the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person R" That's because SIMILES are also parallels and are used to parallel similar functions to the thing it represents.
For example, Joushua is a SIMILE/PARALEL to Jesus.
Not a single sin is recorded of Joshua, and he runs as a champion saving Israel and preparing the way into the promised land.
Another example:
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:2
A thief is sneaky, unannounced and sudden, so is the arrival of the coming of Jesus.
Another example Martin Luther spoke of is why is the Holy Spirit like an eagle and also like a dove? Why the depiction of two very different birds?
In order to answer this question, it is OK to talk about the functions of both eagles and doves and apply these functions to the HS. That is what parallel similes do, they allow us to compare. One can also study the eagle on her nest with her young, as a perfect comparison to the HS as a feminine member of Elohiym watching of her humans as well.
D"But Ezk 28 – the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person R" That's because the cherub is a being. One can study the life of Joshua and learn things about the life of Jesus.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
From this simile parallel, we can learn Jesus mediated upon the torah and was prosperous and successful because of this.
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
It is interesting the prince-YHWH (Jesus) meets human Joshua face to face. ---------------
D"Ezk 26 = Prophecy Against Tyre Ezk 27 = A Lament for Tyre Ezk 28 = Prophecy Against the Prince of Tyre Ezk 28 = A Lament over the King of Tyre YEP 3 chapters in a row all about The KINGDOM OF TYRE and its KING ZERO references to your satan god R" No apology that you goofed, saying three chapters on King Tyre, you agree with me, the chapters on the Prince of Tyre is much smaller.
Yet you write "King of Tyre" is incorrect.
I wrote my reasons, not a single discussion from you, only you are dogmatic to repeat your "king of Tyre" thing. What is the difference between the prince of Tyre and your king of Tyre Dave?
Are you blind so you do not even read my comments?
-------------------
D"Your claim that scripture is a secret – and that only you have the secret knowledge – is arrogant beyond compare R" Of course Scripture is hidden/secret
Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
If you ask of GOD, the wisdom will come, otherwise the Bible is a book of hidden poetry and meanings.
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
GOD promises to make us meek, when we read Scripture with humility, asking the HS for help. ---------------------
D"NOW WHO HAS AN EXCUSE To the questions – why is it a sin to obey God – why does God command a genocide – why does Ellen White deny the Second Coming of God – why does Ellen White contradict scripture – why did God leave 99% of the World to the Archon (other gods) – and if what happened in Gen 1:2-3 (Rev 12:1-5) was a sin, why did God call it tov?
Your doctrine is not complete R" I will not enter into your mock and doubt Dave. If you wish to begin a new topic, do so. Currently I am asking you why you do not see the sinning shedim in the NT as aslo being that sin like humans sin, as 1 JOhn 3:8 says. You agree the archons are false elohiym powers, than you have essentially the same view as I do.
D" Then why do you refuse to answer my questions – you just skip over them and pretend they were not asked of you – this is a 2 way discussion – isn’t it? R" You refuse to answer my question Dave, about why you do not see sinning shedim like humans sinning in 1 John 3:8, this make the shedim morally culpable for their sinning as humans are, so the shedim have free will also. I have presented this to you many times, and you ignore the verse, It is plain to read, but you refuse to support the idea the shedim sin like humans sin.
D"Neither is Ellen White – yet you offer it as your own personal Kabbalah R" Have a read of Ellen White writings and ask yourself is this a personal Kabbalah, or is it simply a Hebrew English translation of the torah. You decide.
Read Desire of Ages for instance. D"Not enough time to study scripture – the most asinine thing I have ever heard R" If you study our Spiritual Springs, you find I do not beat around the bush but present stuff rapidly, in detail and with discussion. I do not like wasting time.
I often wondered why Mrs White beats around the bush sometimes in explaining faith for instance. Apparently when dealing with stiff neck, you write stiff neck dribble. I find the Bible provides space for doubters to doubt and mockers to mock. Do not throw your pearls to pigs, the Bible says. It's good advice.
--------------
D"Because you teach two gods in heaven opposing one another – a god of good and a god of evil ABSOLUTE NONSENSE R" How is this different to your view of 6 second war in heaven over the true God and his angels fighting the false shedim elohiym power and his sinning angels? It was a war in heaven, for 6 seconds wasn't it, according to your view? Now the war is on earth, still between false elohiym powers and the true elohiym power in heaven.
DO you agree with what I said?
RP" Really Dave. nit picking exactness, OK agree, but there used to be. D" NEVER – ABSOLUTE NONSENSE R" Oh,
so there never was a war in heaven? Never was a false elohiym power? Never are there sinning shedim?
Is this your final answer Dave? Just deny Scripture?
D"You just want to validate your satan as a god R" NO Dave, I am just talking facts of Scripture, you have problems with false shedim powers that sin, not me.
D"You teach anyone opposing man is opposing God R" Are humans the apple of God's eye or not Dave?
If the shedim seek to destroy humans, than God get very angry about their sinning against humans. DUH
DO you agree with this idea?
RP" You cannot oppose ALONE. There is a minimum of two Beings for the term oppose to exist. D" YES - YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO PASS THE BLAME OFF ONTO YOUR SATAN R" Are you OK? You cannot reason. You seem to have lost your marbles? I was talking about how the word "oppose" exists. Not talking about some "Satan cherub". Not even interested in your fetish for a "Satan archon cherub".
The word "oppose" requires two beings, so they oppose each other. The word "adversary" requires two beings, so they are both adversaries to each other. The word "missing" requires two beings too, so one misses the relationship demands of the other. DUH
You cannot sin alone. You cannot oppose alone. You cannot play tennis on your own either.
( I suppose you can pretend... play tennis against the wall, so the wall becomes the resistance force of opposing. As Newton says to every action is an opposite and equal opposing reaction. DUH it's a physical law of relationship)
D"You deny that your god can be in two places at the same time – while Judeo-Christianity teaches God is Omnipresent R" Weird. When God is Omnipresent, it means the presence of GOD is everywhere. Like ? Hmm? Like as if a human had the ability to hear any thinking from any humans he chooses to listen to.
But you present the weird idea that GOD is two beings of the Father in physical form. maybe three beings of the Father in physical form. Maybe a million Father's all over the earth, listening to each human. Why not just ONE Father who can listen to all humans all over the earth? Come on Dave, get real.
So which is it? Is the elohiym power a million Fathers with some masculine and some feminine? Or is the elohiym power like a Family concept?
Ephesian 3:15,16 answers this for us. Of course this Family has omnipresence powers. You deny Scripture Dave, A Jewish professor wrote of a real Father and a real son with dual godhead. Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
It this translation wrong according to you? Must be.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
It this translation wrong according to you? Must be.
Even Jews write, that GOD is not one, and confuses those who understand trinity?
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
DO Jews detail what they mean by godhead?
Now I asked you for a Messanic Website with articles about their doctrines of faith? Can't you supply one?
Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Oct 31, 2022 16:26:10 GMT -5
Simile - (Definitions from Oxford Languages) Noun - a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., as brave as a lion, crazy like a fox ). The man is as brave as a lion – the lion does not become a new and different person The man is crazy like a fox – the fox does not become a new person(google) What is a simile easy definition? A simile is a phrase that uses a comparison to describe. For example, “life” can be described as similar to “a box of chocolates.” You know you've spotted one when you see the words like or as in a comparison Life is as a box of chocolates – the box of chocolates does not become a new person R” Jesus is NOT technically a branch, or a seed or a rock, these are SIMILES. Correct Jesus is like a branch – the branch does not come alive as a new person Jesus is like a seed – the seed does not come alive as a new person Jesus is like a rock – the seed does not come alive as a new person
----------------------- D" Life is as a box of chocolates – the box of chocolates does not become a new person But Ezk 28 – the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person R" That's because SIMILES are also parallels and are used to parallel similar functions to the thing it represents. For example, Joushua is a SIMILE/PARALEL to Jesus. OK when does the paralle end and and the two become different?Another example: - the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 When does the thief stop referring to the Lord and become a different person with a theology of its own? Another example Martin Luther spoke of is why is the Holy Spirit like an eagle and also like a dove? Why the depiction of two very different birds?When does the eagle become different than the Holy Spirit and become a different person with its own theology When does the dove become different than the Holy Spirit and become a different person with its own theology
In order to answer this question, it is OK to talk about the functions of both eagles and doves and apply these functions to the HS. That is what parallel similes do, they allow us to compare. One can also study the eagle on her nest with her young, as a perfect comparison to the HS as a feminine member of Elohiym watching of her humans as well. D"But Ezk 28 – the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person R" That's because the cherub is a being So is a lamb – so is an eagle, so is a dove, so is JoshuaOne can study the life of Joshua and learn things about the life of Jesus. Not a single sin is recorded of Joshua, and he runs as a champion saving Israel and preparing the way into the promised land. Why did Joshua need a Divine Pardon?--------------------- D"NOW WHO HAS AN EXCUSE To the questions – why is it a sin to obey God – why does God command a genocide – why does Ellen White deny the Second Coming of God – why does Ellen White contradict scripture – why did God leave 99% of the World to the Archon (other gods) – and if what happened in Gen 1:2-3 (Rev 12:1-5) was a sin, why did God call it tov? Your doctrine is not complete R" I will not enter into your mock and doubt Dave. If you wish to begin a new topic, do so. CORRECT – you cannot answer – so you will not even tryCurrently I am asking you why you do not see the sinning shedim in the NT as aslo being that sin like humans sin, as 1 JOhn 3:8 says. Answered many times – you just have no room in your theology for Jewish demonology – your theology revolves around your satan god in a cosmic struggle against the Creator. IF – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will not understand scripture You agree the archons are false elohiym powers, than you have essentially the same view as I do. NOT EVEN CLOSE!Yes – I have two gods and two kings - what's wrong with that? Jews and Christians have only ONE TRUE GOD and ONE TRUE KING – it’s called monotheism
-------------- D"Because you teach two gods in heaven opposing one another – a god of good and a god of evil ABSOLUTE NONSENSE R" How is this different to your view of 6 second war in heaven over the true God and his angels fighting the false shedim elohiym power and his sinning angels? It was a war in heaven RP" Really Dave. nit picking exactness, OK agree, but there used to be. D" NEVER – ABSOLUTE NONSENSER" Oh, so there never was a war in heaven? - what childish nonsense – Mr seriousNever was a false elohiym power? – what nonsense – Mr seriousNever are there sinning shedim? – what nonsense – Mr seriousWhy is lying and misrepresenting your Christian approach to study? – it is very Don Patton – very SDA Why does your religion see lying as an appropriate form of witness?D"You just want to validate your satan as a god R" NO Dave, I am just talking facts of Scripture, you have problems with false shedim powers that sin, not me. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth. Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water. Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness. Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought, Rev 12:8 but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. IF – you say what happened in Gen 1:2 = SIN Then God is wrong – Gen 1:31 God said it was tov IF – you say what happened in gen 1:2 = SIN and the Beast is still free to bother man Then God is wrong – Gen 1:31 God said it was tov Then Jude and 2 Peter are wrong – because the sinning angels are locked away If - you understand that what happened in Gen 1:2 = DARKNESS = ignorance Then God did NOT lie – Gen 1:31 God said it was tov Then Jude and 2 Peter are speaking about Enoch’s Watchers of Gen 6 ------------------------ D"You teach anyone opposing man is opposing God R" Are humans the apple of God's eye or not Dave? How does this support your teaching than anyone opposing man is opposing God?D"Neither is Ellen White – yet you offer it as your own personal Kabbalah R" Have a read of Ellen White writings and ask yourself is this a personal Kabbalah, or is it simply a Hebrew English translation of the torah. You decide. Either you offer her as addition scripture equal with Paul – as the SDA do Or she is your Kabbalah – your commentary on scripture that you follow
D" Then why do you refuse to answer my questions – you just skip over them and pretend they were not asked of you – this is a 2 way discussion – isn’t it? ------------------------ D"You deny that your god can be in two places at the same time – while Judeo-Christianity teaches God is Omnipresent R" Weird. When God is Omnipresent, it means the presence of GOD is everywhere. Like ? Hmm? Like as if a human had the ability to hear any thinking from any humans he chooses to listen to. But you present the weird idea that GOD is two beings of the Father in physical form.ABSOLUTELY NOT MY TEACHING = lie and misrepresent
|
|
|
Post by Dillon on Oct 31, 2022 21:03:53 GMT -5
D"But Ezk 28 – the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person R" That's because the cherub is a being
Don’t you see what Robert does? Scripture says the King of Tyre is like a cherub Robert changes it around so the cherub is like the King of Tyre
Robert is playing switch-a-word to corrupt scripture in his favor
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2022 2:25:37 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" OK when does the parallel end and and the two become different?R" It doesn't. Joshua was a parallel of Jesus his entire life. In fact Joshua is in Hebrew Yashua, they have the same names even. What is different, is Jesus is divine, and becomes a human as well. D" Answered many times – you just have no room in your theology for Jewish demonology –R" You have only shown me Orthodox Jewish demonology, and they do not read the NT. What about the link or posting some Messanic Jewish thoughts on demonology? What do the Messanic Jews says about the shedim that sins like humans sin? RP" You agree the archons are false elohiym powers, than you have essentially the same view as I do.D" NOT EVEN CLOSE!R" OK why do you call the archons false gods than? D" Jews and Christians have only ONE TRUE GOD and ONE TRUE KING – it’s called monotheismR" OK en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_JudaismJews traditionally believe in a monotheistic conception of God (God is only one),[3][5][6] ......, and further held to be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and completely infinite in all of his attributes, who has no partner or equal, being the sole creator of everything in existence.[3][7]
Pretty clear. Prove to me using Jewish writings, that allow your Jesus to be a mere expression of the Father. Show me your Jewish writings on this as a post, include the links so I can read further. RP " so there never was a war in heaven? - D " what childish nonsense – Mr seriousRp" Never was a false elohiym power? – D" what nonsense – Mr seriousRp" Never are there sinning shedim? – D" what nonsense – Mr serious Why is lying and misrepresenting your Christian approach to study? – it is very Don Patton – very SDA Why does your religion see lying as an appropriate form of witness?R" OK, show me how the Messanic Jews see the shedim. Post me their writings, show me links so I can read their doctrines on the shedim further. It must be Messanic Jewish, not the Orthodox Jew as they do not like Jesus nor do they read the NT Jesus got written about Himself. D" Either you offer her as addition scripture equal with Paul – as the SDA do Or she is your Kabbalah – your commentary on scripture that you followR" I see, what about using her as a Hebrew English translator? D" ABSOLUTELY NOT MY TEACHING = lie and misrepresentR" You hardly ever write your views, so I am getting tired of your lack of discussion. Instead, show me the Jews writings that agree with your view, and allow me to read the source links too. Show me that Jewish writings agree with you. Especially Messanic Jews 1) What do they mean by godhead? 2) How does Jesus fit into the elohiym picture? 3) How do the Messanics see the shedim that sin like humans sin? 4) How do Messanics relate to "satan/opposer" ? DO they see Exekiel 28 as a cherub that sinned, or do they present tradtional Orthodox Jewish views. Post their statments please. ------------------------------------ Greetings Dillon
No I am not playing switch a word. I am trying to validate what Dave believes in. Now I will try to see what Messanic Jews believe, and see what these people say about the OT and NT torah. Shalom On a more positive note I finally finished my thermal chimney design that Dave talked about long ago A close up looking inside the glass chamber, that heats up the air and sucks out the air in the kitchen. The lid is bolted 3 cms about the top to allow hot air to escape. Not real big I know, but that is all the materials I could find. Thanks for showing me the inspiration. Not everything is bad about Dave. He really does have some great ideas, and lots of patience. Shalom --------------------------Postscript Greetings I found a Messanic Website, and find their teachings very different to Dave and Robert. I didn't see that coming. Strange even. But at least it is a beginning, as you seem not to follow the Torah, so I have to find other sources of authority. rabdavis.org/demonology/BETH ELOHIM MESSIANIC SYNAGOGUE Demonology Here is a sermon article on demons, as the Messanics believe:- The Scriptures give abundant proof of the existence of a vast order of spirit beings that are under the control of HaSatan and do his bidding. Their number may be seen from the fact that a legion indwelt one man or two men of Gadara. The fact of their existence is seen from the personal contact that Yahshua had with them in casting them out of possessed persons. He dealt with them as with personal responsible creatures who could understand His commands, could obey them, possessing knowledge saying to Yahshua, “We know thee who Thou art” (Lk. 4:35). They worshipped the Messiah (Mk. 5:6). They can believe (Jas. 2:19) anticipation to judgment, or have a foreknowledge of impending doom (Mt. 8:29).
The authorized version of the Scriptures has mistranslated the Greek words daimonion and daimon, from which our English word demon is derived, by the oft repeated word Devil or devils when it should be demon or demons. The word Devil is always reserved for the original devil or HaSatan, except in three cases where the word Diabolos or “accuser” or “slanderer” is used of men (I Tim. 3:1,11; 3:3; Tit. 2:3). Used more than 30 times of HaSatan, but the words daimonion and daimon in both the singular and plural is never used interchangeably with diabolos.
Their origins are shrouded in the mystery of the prehistoric past.
Nevertheless, we can deduce that from their New Testament or B’rit Chadasha activity of seeking embodiment, it would seem to indicate that they are disembodied spirits. Angels never had a body, and therefore would not seek embodiment. However, wherever demons seek to be active in the B’rit Chadasha (New Testament) it is for embodiment, or possession of human beings. They seem to have man’s own temperament or soulish nature (but not man’s spirit), which must have a body to express itself and be happy. Sha’ul (Paul) speaks of a groaning not to be disembodied, but clothed upon with a glorified body. We could never be complete or happy in eternity without a body. Our soulish natures need a body for complete expression. It would seem that demons must have this same compulsion, for we read in the story of the demons of Gadarea, that they sought to be embodied in the swine rather than be cast out altogether.
From this deduction, it would seem that demons are not angels, but a prehistoric race of personal moral agents who lived here on earth before Adam in the first Paradise of G-d in which HaSatan as Lucifer lived and ruled. They might have been his subjects then. He had a kingdom here on earth, as G-d of this age, Prince (Ruler) of this world, and still holds that sway.
I will stop here is posting the article. So Rabbi Davis supports a Devil called HaSatan, and it seems the HaSatan founded a race of demons that do His bidding. SHalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Nov 1, 2022 14:10:13 GMT -5
D"But Ezk 28 – the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person R" That's because the cherub is a being Don’t you see what Robert does? Scripture says the King of Tyre is like a cherub Robert changes it around so the cherub is like the King of Tyre Robert is playing switch-a-word to corrupt scripture in his favor D"OK when does the parallel end and and the two become different? R" It doesn't. Joshua was a parallel of Jesus his entire life. Correct – simile – parallelism – metaphor - rules of language Ezk 28 – The King of Tyre is like a cherub (protecting guardian covering his people with his wings) Jesus is the lamb – the lamb is always a reference to Jesus Jesus is a rock – the rock is always a reference to Jesus Jesus is a branch – the branch is always a reference to Jesus Jesus is like Joshua - R" Joshua was a parallel of Jesus his entire life. The King of Tyre is like a cherub – the cherub is a reference to the King of Tyre No one ever saw these similes, parallels, metaphors any differently – UNTIL ROME NOW YOU SAY - the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person with its own separate theology---------------------------------------- D"Answered many times – you just have no room in your theology for Jewish demonology – Your theology revolves around your satan god in a cosmic struggle against the Creator. IF – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will not understand scripture R" You have only shown me Orthodox Jewish demonology, and they do not read the NT. Judaism weights scripture by source – #1 if God said it - #2 If God said it through Moses - #3 if God said it through a Major Prophet - #4 – if God said it through a Minor Prophet - #5 additional to the Tanak the Jews also have the ‘Wisdom of their Fathers’ – many books / scrolls are mentioned within scripture as valid sources of information – Temple Library was a Library - #Last they even have their own legends
Jesus Christ said Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. I believe Jesus Christ – the Torah is still the Torah – Nothing changedBeelzebub and the shedim, Lilith, satyrs, Nephilim, and Rephiem of the ahl/OT + the ‘other gods’ of the ahl/OT + the evil spirits of the ahl/OT ARE STILL REAL AND ALIVE AND MAINSTREAM REALITYThe only difference – Luke + James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas called them ‘Principalities’ – which is a 1611 translation for archon Jewish demonology has always been real – it is the base for every satanic / magic / witchcraft / black arts movement all around the world – it all has its origins in the exact same source = KING SOLOMON The only thing that has ever changed – are their names through history “… some people call them demonic, some call them the serpent race, Islam calls them Jinn” – David Ike In Greek they are called archon Jewish demonology has always been real – it is the base for every – ‘other god’ of this world 33 other gods of the Levant – or 20 other gods of Rome – or 20 other gods of Asgard – or the 20 other gods of Egypt Jewish demonology has always been real – it is the base for every – ancient astronaut / space gods / aliens with UFOs – little green men – intra-dimensional visitors Jewish demonology has always been real – it is the base for every paranormal event – ghosts – mediums – necromancers Jewish demonology has always been real – it is the base for - Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers (ARCHON), against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. I believe Jesus Christ – the Torah is still the Torah – Nothing changedBeelzebub and the shedim, Lilith, satyrs, Nephilim, and Rephiem of the ahl/OT + the ‘other gods’ of the ahl/OT + the evil spirits of the ahl/OT ARE STILL REAL AND ALIVE AND MAINSTREAL REALITYThe only difference – Luke + James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas called them ‘Principalities’ – which is a 1611 translation for archon ----------------------- RP"You agree the archons are false elohiym powers, than you have essentially the same view as I do. D" NOT EVEN CLOSE! R" OK why do you call the archons false gods than?Same reason Caesar is a false god Same reason Emperor Ito is a false god Same reason Pharaoh is a false god Is the same reason Baal, Molech, Dogon, Chermosh, etc are false gods
THEY ARE NOT GOD – THEY ARE CREATED BEINGS OF THIS WORLD!------------------------- D"Jews and Christians have only ONE TRUE GOD and ONE TRUE KING – it’s called monotheism R" OK - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism Jews traditionally believe in a monotheistic conception of God (God is only one),[3][5][6] ......, and further held to be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and completely infinite in all of his attributes, who has no partner or equal, being the sole creator of everything in existence.[3][7] Pretty clear. Judaism is the foundation of Christianity – I grew up mainstream Presbyterian – same beliefYou deny each and every pointa monotheistic conception of God (God is only one) – you absolutely deny the TRINITY and force three different beings working together + your god of evil = at a least a 4 godsomnipotent, - your God is weak – not in control – must respond and react to your powerful angel satanomnipresent,- you teach you can block God with shadowsomniscient, - your satan god acted against God’s Will – outside of God’s Will – and completely infinite in all of his attributes, - all of God’s creation is corrupted by your satan godwho has no partner or equal, - you have a family of 3 equal beings working together so love can exist between thembeing the sole creator of everything in existence – your god could not create ra or the beast – your satan recreated himself against God’s Will – then changed God’s Plan against God’s WillJudaism is the foundation of Christianity – I grew up mainstream Presbyterian – same belief You deny each and every point------------------------------ Prove to me using Jewish writings, that allow your Jesus to be a mere expression of the Father. Col 1:15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Christ is the image of God – God in 3D form – every time God appeared as a man it was ChristCol 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. Christ is the CREATOR – Christ = GOD – Christ is the 3D image of God – YHWY-YESUAH – Jewish duality Col 1:17 He exists before everything, and in Him all holds together. Christ is the CREATOR – Christ = GOD – Christ is the 3D image of God – YHWY-YESUAH – Jewish dualityCol 1:18 He is the head of the body, His community. He is the beginning, … Christ is the CREATOR – Christ = GOD – Christ is the 3D image of God – YHWY-YESUAH – Jewish dualityJewish Duality - YHWY-YESUAH + Jewish ShekinahSHEKINAH (; lit. "the dwelling"): The majestic presence or manifestation of God which has descended to "dwell" among men. Like Memra (= "word"; "logos") and "Yeḳara" (i.e., "Kabod" = "glory"), the term was used by the Rabbis in place of "God" where the anthropomorphic expressions of the Bible were no longer regarded as proper (see Anthropomorphism). The word itself is taken from such passages as speak of God dwelling either in the Tabernacle or among the people of Israel (see Ex. xxv. 8, xxix. 45-46; Num. v. 3, xxxv. 34; I Kings vi. 13; Ezek. xliii. 9; Zech. ii. 14 [A. V. 10]). Occasionally the name of God is spoken of as descending (Deut. xii. 11; xiv. 23; xvi. 6, 11; xxvi. 2; Neh. i. 9). It is especially said that God dwells in Jerusalem (Zech. viii. 3; Ps. cxxxv. 21; I Chron. xxiii. 25), on Mount Zion (Isa. viii. 18; Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 17, 21; Ps. xv. 1, lxxiv. 2), and in the Temple itself (Ezek. xliii. 7). Allusion is made also to "him that dwelt in the bush" (Deut. xxxiii. 16, ); and it is said that "the glory of the Lord abode upon Mount Sinai" (Ex. xxiv. 16). Jewish Duality - YHWY-YESUAH + Jewish Shekinah Father – Son – Holy Spirit = Christian TrinityExo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” No man can comprehend – understand – see the Father – beyond our understandingExo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. The Spirit of God – the Holy Spirit – the Glory of GodExo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.” Christ – the 3D image of GodR” But you present the weird idea that GOD is two beings of the Father in physical form. D"ABSOLUTELY NOT MY TEACHING = lie and misrepresent R" You hardly ever write your views, so I am getting tired of your lack of discussion. Jesus Christ = God incarnate – because Christ = God / YHWY-YESUAH---------------------------- D"Either you offer her as additional scripture equal with Paul – as the SDA do Or she is your Kabbalah – your commentary on scripture that you follow R" I see, what about using her as a Hebrew English translator? Let’s study here Hebrew translations of the serpent lying in Eden Let’s study her Hebrew translation of Ezk 28----------------------- Show me that Jewish writings agree with you. Especially Messanic Jews What about the link or posting some Messanic Jewish thoughts on demonology? It must be Messanic Jewish, not the Orthodox Jew as they do not like Jesus nor do they read the NT AGAIN – JESUS DID NOT COME TO REWRITE THE ahl/OT – Nothing changedposting some Messanic Jewish thoughts There is a range of Messianic Judaism – just as there is a range of Christianity Today there are JEWS FOR JESUS Non-practicing Jews – that became Christians later – Many attend Christian church – and have Roman Christian views – but try to return to some of the values and practices of Judaism Lion Of JudahPracticing Jews – that accept Jesus as the Messiah Their answer sounds very Jewish - very Jewish Kabbalah – they offer 3 opinions Do I agree with them – NOT all 3 opinionsThe Angels You Have Never Heard Of - You Might Want To Watch This Video Right AwayLion of Judah – 12:34min 1- Evil spirit are not evil – they just seem evil to man because of their assignments by God They are not evil – but get a bad rep because of the jobs they do They are not evil – man just does not understand the larger picture 100% Gnostic and agl/NT – made by God for God 2- Evil spirits are evil(ra) – but they are used by God Also consistent with Gnostic and agl/NT (ra – entropy) 3- some angels rebelled - consistent with Robert But then the video talks about the evil rebelling angels working for God – used by God Even making the point that the prophets of Baal were listening to angels sent by God And leaves you with the choice to believe what you want Their POINT – and my original POINT with you is just to make you pause and consider – to Ponder all the angles - test it all – if God created it all – it all must point to Him – Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 ------------------------- Satan’s Appearance Exposed! // Fallen Angels, Nephilim & The DevilLion of Judah – 12:45 Robert – you will love the beginning of this video – sounds very RomanThe devil – that old serpent and dragon – LUCIFER – his name is satan – HA SATAN – the oppose or adversary 0:48-52 Robert – you will deliberately NOT hear – these 4 seconds – overlook their meaningThe name describes the function of this Beast as – THE OPPOSER OF GOD’S CREATIONYES – entropy – the dragon is poised to devour / spoil whatever is physically created – Rev 12:4 100% Gnostic – the Beast sinned against the entirety 1:00 – OH – sounds very Catholic – Robert will be very pleased1:36 – even quotes Ezk 24:14 1:50 – quotes Jesus seeing satan fall from heaven like lightening 2:00 – satan is NOT in hell – he is on earth 2:05 – satan is NOT locked up in chains of darkness 2:10 – on earth satan has a satanic kingdom 2:12-2:22 - BUT - Robert – you will deliberately NOT hear – these 10 seconds – overlook their meaningThe main function of the satanic kingdom is to wage war – AGAINST GOD’S CREATION!Gnostic Point #1 - NO WAR IN HEAVEN – no cosmic struggle between 2 gods in heaven – no 2 gods (one of tov and one of ra) Gnostic Point #2 – The BEAST – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas OPPOSE CREATION – NOT GOD YES – Rev 12:4 – ready to devour whatever is physically created = entropy – sinned against the entirety Gnostic Point #3 – This world is the kingdom / domain of the Beast and his archon They were here first – God placed Adam and Eve into their domain later Parallelism – simile – metaphor – God gave Canaan to Abraham 3:00 – a very real devil – the god of this world – the deceiver and a liar 3:48 – the devils can appear in another form – shapeshifting – mind control image implanting 3:55 – satan is powerful – but not in the same league as the Creator – NO CONTEST Satan is just a created being of this world God is Absolute 4:19 – the devil is no match for God 4:35 – calls satan a malignant person 5:00 – PROOF this is a Jewish presentation – presenting multiple theories – multiple opinions Lay it all out there side by side and compare 1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 1Th 5:20 do not despise prophetic messages, 1Th 5:21 but test all things, hold fast to what is good, Pre-Adamic race – Gap theory – between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 Gnostic version = The First Age – a spiritual race of Adamus Jewish version – Adam and Lilith LEGEND 7:00 – demons are fallen angels –or- Nephilim 7:15 – there is a very real spirit realm all around us YES – “Just beyond out field of vision are entities that are anything but human …” David Ike YES – dimensionally – the 4th dimension – just beyond our reach – but we are within their reach 8:00 – Gen 6 Fallen Ones = come down from space or heaven Wrong – the archon have always been here since Gen 1:28:25 – IT MAKES IT CLEAR – the Nephilim are NOT Fallen Angels – they are superhuman demi-gods Gen 6:1-4 – Sons of God / bane elohiym 9:30 – The Sons of God / bane elohiym ARE angelic Beings – Archon – Messengers of the Beast Jude 1:6 – all about Gen 6 Job 38:7 – my verse – two groups – angels and bane elohiym If – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will NOT understand much of the ahl/OT
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Nov 2, 2022 4:34:38 GMT -5
Postscript I found a Messanic Website, and find their teachings very different to Dave and Robert. NOPE – very much Dave I didn't see that coming. Strange even. Because you have been taught a different Roman religion that is anti-Semitic – with a different god(s)
rabdavis.org/demonology/ - BETH ELOHIM MESSIANIC SYNAGOGUE Here is a sermon article on demons, as the Messanics believe:-
The Scriptures give abundant proof of the existence of a vast order of spirit beings that are under the control of HaSatan and do his bidding. Spirit beings – spiritual
The authorized version of the Scriptures has mistranslated the Greek words daimonion and daimon, from which our English word demon is derived, by the oft repeated word Devil or devils when it should be demon or demons.
Devil = Rev 12:9 The beast – the serpent race – we call devils and satanas
The word Devil is always reserved for the original devil or HaSatan, except in three cases where the word Diabolos or “accuser” or “slanderer” is used of men (I Tim. 3:1,11; 3:3; Tit. 2:3). Used more than 30 times of HaSatan, but the words daimonion and daimon in both the singular and plural is never used interchangeably with diabolos.
Their origins are shrouded in the mystery of the prehistoric past. Correct – within Judaism – the oldest they have = King Solomon Beelzebul is the offspring of an ARCH-angel and fathers offspring
Christianity has – Rev 12:1-5 – the moment of creation of everything – Gen 1:1-3 The Beast appears in a plurality ready to devour
Only the Nag Hammadi adds – they/he was created by the Holy Spirit – without her consort knowing By the LEFT HAND – the Jewish hand of mystery and Judgment From the WOMB – the MOTHER – the medium – the sustainer – the ether – the matrix – the Spirit
Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
Nevertheless, we can deduce that from their New Testament or B’rit Chadasha activity of seeking embodiment, it would seem to indicate that they are disembodied spirits. Angels never had a body, and therefore would not seek embodiment.
B’rit Chadasha activity of seeking embodiment – Gen 6 – LA MARZULI – I had an alien baby
However, wherever demons seek to be active in the B’rit Chadasha (New Testament) it is for embodiment, or possession of human beings. They seem to have man’s own temperament or soulish nature (but not man’s spirit),
YES – the Nephilim were man + archon = mixed with humanity
which must have a body to express itself and be happy. Sha’ul (Paul) speaks of a groaning not to be disembodied, but clothed upon with a glorified body. We could never be complete or happy in eternity without a body. Our soulish natures need a body for complete expression.
YES – Jews teach the spirit of man cannot do Jer 1:5 unless he is here in a body Eve understood – she could not Jer 1:5 in paradise
It would seem that demons must have this same compulsion, (yester ra) go forth be fruitful and multiply
for we read in the story of the demons of Gadarea, that they sought to be embodied in the swine rather than be cast out altogether.
From this deduction, it would seem that demons are not angels, but a prehistoric race of personal moral agents who lived here on earth before Adam in the first Paradise of G-d in which HaSatan as Lucifer lived and ruled.
Archon are NOT angels Archon are a prehistoric race – Rev 12:9 – the Beast – the serpent race – called devils and satanas Here on/in earth since Gen 1:2 – and God called His creation tov Gen 1:31
They might have been his subjects then. He had a kingdom here on earth, as G-d of this age, Prince (Ruler) of this world, and still holds that sway.
YEP – Eph 6:12 – our real enemy – made by God for God – Col 1:16
So Rabbi Davis supports a Devil called HaSatan, and it seems the HaSatan founded a race of demons that do His bidding.
YES - Rabbi Davis supports (Reb 12:9 Beast – the serpent race – we call Devil called HaSatan, and founded (fathered)a race of demons (archon)
YES – this is more Gnostic than King Solomon’s shedim story – King Solomon only speaks to –the serpent race the Beast fathered “HaSatan founded a race of demons that do His bidding.”
YES – the only addition the Nag Hammadi adds = The Beast is of the Left Hand of God God never said – let there be the Beast – from the Right Hand - through Christ the creator – the image of God the Beast just appeared – from the Left Hand - from the womb – the feminine – a by-product of / inherent to physical creation = Entropy
I will stop here is posting the article. WHY – it is perfectly on point!
Messianic Jews are Jews that add Jesus Christ as the Messiah Jesus did not come to change history – Jewish theology + Jewish demonology remain
Roman Christianity is a different religion – with a new and different doctrine – giving praise to the wrong god – you cannot even admit that Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 are proof of God’s handiwork
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 15:22:00 GMT -5
D"The King of Tyre is like a cherub – the cherub is a reference to the King of Tyre
No one ever saw these similes, parallels, metaphors any differently – UNTIL ROME NOW YOU SAY - the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person with its own separate theology R" I see, you are seeing the simile only as King Tyre functioning as a cherub.
You failed to see what each speech of GOD is and how it changes.
FIrst GOD speaks to the "prince" of Tyre. Than GOD speaks to the "Reigner" over Tyre. You see these two means as one meaning, the "King of Tyre" , whereas I don't. I get my reasons from other Scripture, like this
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
There are TWO powers mentioned here, but only ONE power is functioning visibly on earth, the BEAST power humans see. But the humans also worship the dragon power, which they do not see.
The dragon power is giving his power to the beast power. The same idea is in Ezekiel.
The REIGNER over Tyre gives powers to the PRINCE of Tyre.
Translators term it "King of Tyre", and yes the "chief cherub" is KING over Prince Tyre. In fact even Jesus acknowledged the sinning shedim cherub as a PRINCE of this world, or a KING.
D"Judaism weights scripture by source – #1 if God said it - #2 If God said it through Moses - #3 if God said it through a Major Prophet - #4 – if God said it through a Minor Prophet - #5 additional to the Tanak the Jews also have the ‘Wisdom of their Fathers’ – many books / scrolls are mentioned within scripture as valid sources of information – Temple Library was a Library - #Last they even have their own legends R" That's some weight on the torah, if only it was true, when I look at Jewish studies, most of their studies jump right into human opinions, precepts and traditions of men, not a thorough study of the torah first.
RP" R" OK why do you call the archons false gods than? D" Same reason Caesar is a false god Same reason Emperor Ito is a false god Same reason Pharaoh is a false god R" But these are HUMANS acting as false gods, and we already know humans have free will to sin. Why don't you do a discussion of the other created creatures, if they are false gods, than they have free will to sin just like humans do, but Dave does not discuss this. Your twist and avoid the real discussions I want you to discuss.
So I ask again, why do you term the shedim as false gods, Dave?
D"THEY ARE NOT GOD – THEY ARE CREATED BEINGS OF THIS WORLD! R" What a dumb thing to say, of course shedim are not God, nor are humans God, but Dave you refuse to discuss the shedim as a created creature.
Why do your term the shedim as false gods?
Because this term implies the shedim sin like humans sin, and thus have free will to function as a false elohiym power, knowing both good and evil, as Jeff Benner defines the term.
Try answering the question with a correct discussion Dave.
D"your God is weak – not in control – must respond and react to your powerful angel satan R" SO when your daughter disobeys you, you do not react? Since when is when a person sins, does it make the other person in the relationship weak? It doesn't. If you have free will and you choose to walk away from GOD, it's not God's fault, nor does God become weak. DUH come on Dave get real.
D"you teach you can block God with shadows R" Twist, I didn't say that, God is like light, so you can block some of the powers coming from God, hence make shadows. DO you agree with me that sinning is a broken relationship, where less powers from GOD flow into you because of your sinning?
D"your satan god acted against God’s Will – outside of God’s Will – R" If you have free will to SIN, than how is sinning outside of God's will, when GOD created you to choose and make decisions?
D"all of God’s creation is corrupted by your satan god R" Last time I checked the Bible, GOD cursed His creation because of Adam's sin, not the Opposer who sinned first. Even when the sinning angels were banished to earth, than GOD left earth, taking away 99% of His powers of presence, earth became 2degrees Kelvin, dark, formless and void, so that is what GOD does if sinning abounds. Not a burning hell of energy at all, but a formless cold and dreary place where even the atoms find it difficult to have motion.
D"you have a family of 3 equal beings working together so love can exist between them
R" I quote from Rabbi Davis, a Messanic Rabbi in the USA since 1970's. "Doctrinal Statement
· We believe in the One “Echad,” True Elohim as declared in the Shema (Deut.6: 4), Eternally existent as a “compound unity” of THE FATHER (YHVH); THE SON (Adonai); and THE HOLY SPIRIT (Ruach HaKodesh)." I will attempt to find more on this as I read their website for you, but they differ from you already.
D"Jewish Duality - YHWY-YESUAH + Jewish Shekinah Father – Son – Holy Spirit = Christian Trinity R" Show me Jewish writings that agree with you. I showed you two already
A Jewish professor speaks of a real Father and real SON, using the term godhead And Rabbi Davis, "compound unity" for Echad. "Eternally existent as a “compound unity” of THE FATHER (YHVH); THE SON (Adonai); and THE HOLY SPIRIT (Ruach HaKodesh)."
This is NOT saying the same as you, three expressions of the Same Father.
D"No man can comprehend – understand – see the Father – beyond our understanding R" NOT so, some things are hard yes, but we have Eph 3:15,16, elohiym is a simile of FAMILY.
In all your examples, you quote Scripture with a pithy brief discussion, not enough for my mind to understand you, write more, add Jewish writings that agree with you, etc.
D"Let’s study here Hebrew translations of the serpent lying in Eden Let’s study her Hebrew translation of Ezk 28 R" She doesn't do that, she never knew Hebrew either. She just wrote what God told her to write.
You place too much on the human, she was a pen writer, the messages came from God. God does not spell out His words over and over for minds to fathom. You have to seek and dig them out like pearls.
D"There is a range of Messianic Judaism – just as there is a range of Christianity R" OH, so some Jewish writings do do not support, because you do not like their theology?
OK the Jews for Jesus and the Lion of Judah are different assemblies of Jewish people following the torah as they see the torah.
No different to the SDA Jewish assemblies, we are all trying to follow the torah as we see the torah.
Your video on angels and fallen angels...
Here is what Rabbi Davis wrote about this theme
I quote"
Fallen Angels Beth Elohim Messianic Synagogue Fallen Angels
The subject of fallen angles has been coming up more frequently, especially with all of the publicity regarding UFOs. The curiosity about these beings prompted me to post this teaching. Most people woefully lack understanding when it comes to fallen angels. However, the subject is something we should not ignore for greater than our own struggle is the struggle that is now taking place in the spiritual realm. The battles there, between good and evil spiritual powers, influence our dimension and our place in it. Most modems have concluded concerning these entities that they were fragments of ancient imaginations. However, using an old cliché, “where there’s smoke there’s fire,” it behooves us to take a closer look at these ancient civilizations, principally the Greek, and the Roman imitators of Greek culture and examine the origin of these stories, myths, and legends. They give extra-biblical evidence that once there were powerful beings with superhuman powers that walked upon the earth and that these beings became the gods subject to worship of ancient civilizations. I suggest to you that these demigods with their superhuman powers: Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, and a pantheon of others might very well have had their origins in, and be identical with the fallen angels of the Bible.
In Gen. 6:4 we see the first reference to these fallen angles. Here they are referred to as the “sons of G-d.” Let me read: Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. We need first to examine the word Nephilim. Its root is from the Hebrew word naphal that contains in its definition, one who is “cast down.” Nephilim means: of superhuman statue and strength, and conveys the idea of one that is cast down or fallen down. Ergo the Biblical “fallen angels.” Then, we must ask ourselves, do these spiritual entities constitute the basis for the ancient tales of superhuman creatures that walked the earth and interacted with humankind? This is our mission should we choose to accept.
In seminary, demonology if not entirely omitted is the last subject taught to aspiring ministerial candidates. As a result, most believers have trouble discerning spiritual “feelings,” because as a group we are inadequately prepared and lack knowledge concerning these entities, since the leaders are not prepared. As a result the assemblies are not prepared. Most believers are unarmed when it comes to spiritual warfare and do not know an alien spirit from YHVH’s spirit.
The first Biblical reference I gave refers to angels that left their first estate and by their ability to transform themselves into humanoid creatures cohabited with women that established a satanic line in the lineage of humankind. Some of these entities are free to roam the planet with their leader, HaSatan, while others are bound to be released during the time of Tribulation. In the Book of Enoch to which Jude refers in the B’rit Chadashah, we find written in chapter 6, 1, 2 an ancient view of the event I have just spoken on. “And it came to pass, when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. “And the Angels, the children of heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: “Come let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.” This text predates Yahshua by centuries as does the “Book of Jubilees, that says, “And against His angels whom He has sent to earth he was very angry. He commanded that they be uprooted from all their dominion, And told us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold, are in the midst of them and they are isolated.” Josephus in his antiquities of the Jews, says, “For many angels of G-d accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of their confidence they had in their own strength, for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants.” In Ezekiel 28: 12-15 we read of the chief of these beings.
Ezek. 28:12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation over king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Adonai YHVH, “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.”
Ezek. 28:13 “You were in Eden, the garden of Elohim; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created. They were prepared.”
Ezek. 28:14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of Elohim; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.”
Ezek. 28:15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Then we read in Isaiah 14:12- 15 that this being was cast from heaven:
12. “How art thou fallen from heaven, Oh Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13. “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of Elohim: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit …”
It is profitable for us to know something of Tyre of which this spiritual entity was its spiritual king and underlying power. Israel not heeding YHVH’s warning to be set apart and not to have interaction with unbelieving nations interacted politically and commercially with Tyre, and from the preceding verses we know that the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan. One of Tyre’s most coveted exports was purple dye so sought after by the world, (HaSatan always makes sin attractive) and the Bible tells us that Joshua could not conquer the territory (Josh. 13:3-4). David employed Tyrian stonemasons and carpenters and used cedars from that area in building a palace (2 Sam. 5:11). The construction of the Temple in Jerusalem during Solomon’s reign depended heavily on the materials and craftsmen from Tyre, and we see about 870 B.C.E., Ahab married Jezebel, the daughter of the Phoenician king, bringing Baal worship to Israel’s court. Ezekiel 28 characterizes the king of Tyre as the ultimate example of pride. In 1 Tim 4: 1, the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) tells us clearly that in the “last times” some will tum away from orthodox belief; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons. That these demonic teachers are hypocrites and liars. They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead. And we read, commencing in Rev. 12:7
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan), 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our G-d, and the power of his Anointed: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our G-d day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
We need to know that the earth is Satan’s dominion. We as believers are the intruders and aliens for now for Satan rules until Yahshua exercises His right to the Key of David, gained on the execution stake, and establishes His Throne upon earth. YHVH never leaves His people without a defense and in Ephesians 6: 11-12 we are told how to resist these alien spirits:
“Put on the whole armour of G-d, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
There we have it. Our struggle is not against fleshly powers, but against spiritual entities we have categorized as demons. In the B’rit Chadashah generally, in James 2:19 and in Rev. 16:14 these supernatural spirits are spoken of as at enmity with G-d, and having power to afflict man not only with disease, but, as is marked by the frequent epithet “unclean,” with spiritual pollution. James tells us they “believe” knowing the power of G-d “and tremble,” James 2:19; they recognized Yahshua as the Son of G-d, Matt. 8:29; Luke 4:41, and acknowledged the power of his name, used in exorcism, in the conjunction with the name of YHVH, by his appointed messengers, Acts 19:15; and looked forward in terror to the judgment to come. Matt. 8:29. The description of these spiritual beings is precisely that of a nature akin to the angelic in knowledge and powers, but without the Will of G-d. Application in our generation is that we must come to the understanding that “like in the days of Noach, these evil powers that have been restrained from the event of the flood will again be released. Since I believe we are living in the time of Noach it is incumbent upon all believers to know exactly who and what these evil powers can and will do. In 2 Thessalonians 2: 7-12 we are told:
2 Th. 2:7 For the mystery of doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2 Th. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Th. 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Th. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they be saved. 2 Th. 2:11 And for this cause G-d shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Th. 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Here, the “mystery of iniquity” is revealed. It is that lawless spirit that has been present since HaSatan set Himself against the Laws of Heaven. It is with us today in the pulpits in the form of antinomianism.
You do not have to be a bible scholar to understand the theme of these scriptures. HaSatan is actively pursuing a program of unrighteousness, punctuated by deception and the greatest of these deceptions is that G-d’s righteousness as proclaimed in His Living and Written Torah is invalid for ‘believers” today. The Bible tells us that HaSatan is the author of lies and that Torah is the truth. A clear-cut choice lays herein, the great theme of Deuteronomy, choosing life or death, G-d’s truth His Torah choosing s untruth antinomianism.
Much of what is predicted is already among us. Yahshua said in Luke 21:11 that His second coming would be preceded by “fearful sights and great signs.” It would profit you to read this whole chapter for there are great spiritual powers at work right now hastening in our day of redemption.
Soon if not already, we will have among us the ancient “sons of Elohim” mentioned in the earlier part of this message. Peter spoke of this in 2 Peter 2:4:
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; The word translated “hell” here is “Tartarus” meaning the deepest pit of gloom, but these angels are scheduled to be released in the time of Noach to once again bring darkness and despair upon mankind.
In Revelation 9:11 we learn that the leader of this group of fallen angels is Apollyon. Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Apollyon is interpreted as the “destroying angel.” When his troupe are released from their prison their only thought will be of vengeance. They tried to destroy humankind during the period preceding Noah, and without the intervention of G-d they would have done just that. They are coming back if not already here and we must remember that their mission has not changed. We must be forever ready, armed with G-d’s Torah. We cannot trust feelings, great signs, nor our emotions for they are all weapons employed by HaSatan and his demons to destroy and guide us away from the truth.
Be prepared, for YHVH will unleash these bound demons to work their evil among us. We have been warned and we have been given a time mark to observe for Yahshua says it will be in a time like the time of Noach. If we are honest, we know that this is the time. Be prepared and follow truth: the Living and Written Torah. That is our defense and protection from these fallen angels. He is my defense, I will not be moved (Psalm 62:6)
Shalom, Rabbi Tamah Davis-Hart ----------------------- Very different to your view Dave, more in line with the SDA view, don't you think? I don't agree with everything the Rabbi says, but it's speaking of sinning angels, even the spiritual king over King Tyre is mentioned, very different to Dave's view.
-------------------
I will watch your videos later ----------------- PR" I found a Messanic Website, and find their teachings very different to Dave and Robert. D" NOPE – very much Dave R: you think?
Previous Post Rabbi Davis " From this deduction, it would seem that demons are not angels, but a prehistoric race of personal moral agents who lived here on earth before Adam in the first Paradise of G-d in which HaSatan as Lucifer lived and ruled.
D" Archon are NOT angels Archon are a prehistoric race – Rev 12:9 – the Beast – the serpent race – called devils and satanas R" Hmm? Read through Rabbi Davis on Fallen ANgels, posted here. It's different to this account? It joins satanas with HaSatan as one meaning, not as you do Dave
The Bible tells us that HaSatan is the author of lies and that Torah is the truth.
Here.
D"YES - Rabbi Davis supports (Reb 12:9 Beast – the serpent race – we call Devil called HaSatan, and founded (fathered)a race of demons (archon) R" Strange, I thought your HaSatan was a good angel doing a bad job as a prosecutor of human sinnings, now you have a different view?
I seek your comments on the Rabbi Davis article on fallen angels. SHalom
|
|