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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2022 12:15:45 GMT -5
Religious Jews depended upon church – tradition – doctrine – law - deeds Practicing Jews and Christians believe by FAITH – a personal walk with God – not the doing of things R" OK show me an article explaining how Jews understand "amanuah" or a video, Your rabbi female video shows amanuah as trust. Again, not clear. Faith is indeed a doing concept, except the doing involves the humans praying on the Lord Jesus for His power to flow through the praying human for support. Trust? Hmm? What does this mean exactly? Not the same as my above sentence?YOU ARE CORRECT – your version of Judaism is NOT Jewish – it is Christian Propaganda designed to dejudize the faith- to separate us – to divide us – to keep us focused on each other (world) instead of God Trust vrs doing prayers asking for helpIf you trust – why would you feel insecure and ask for help? If you trust – you are secure that it is God’s will in your life Rome 8:28 – trust that it all is working for GOD’S GOOD Even if you do not understand what is happening to you – or around you If you trust – then marching off the gas chambers for Hitler is a tov – it all worked for God’s greater plan If you trust – COVID lockdowns – supply chain disruptions – vaccines – is all working for God’s plan – God’s will Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Faith is indeed a doing concept, except the doing involves the humans praying on the Lord JesusYOU ARE CORRECT – your version of Judaism is NOT Jewish – it is Christian Propaganda designed to dejudize the faith- to separate us – to divide us – to keep us focused on each other (world) instead of God Belief in Jesus Christ was NEVER required of the ahl/OT Jews – Jews believe in YHWY They believe in YHWY-YESUAH They believe in the Salvation of the Lord Robert forces YHWY to be a different God than Christ because he denies the Trinity Robert has two gods – and therefore two religions Jew believe in God and Christians believe in ChristABSOLUTE NONSENSE – God came to earth as Jesus Christ – the 3D image of God – God incarnate God came Himself to walk in our shoesGod gave us the Torah in written form God gave us the Torah in oral form = The Gospel – aimed at the Jews first and then the GENTILES The Christian idea that a Jew must stop believing in God – and instead believe in God is REDICULAS Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Christ came to open Messianic Judaism to the Gentiles / world Did Jesus Christ fulfill all the prophesies of the Messiah – NO If you are a devout Jew – faithful Jew – can Jesus Christ be the Messiah – NO Christians call these Jews misguided / wrong God calls them His faithful remnant - held back – to be called upon again – God’s Plan Unless you are willing to move to the Holy Lands and face all the surrounding nations with their God Allah to fight the final battels of prophesy – STOP HATING THE JEWS -------------------- Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, Explained well by Paul What did they do wrong than? Ro 10:3 ....have not submitted ... unto ... God. The key word here is Greek "hupotasso" or Hebrew "chadesh" meaning "subdue" or "surrender" Easy Answer – What church or church doctrine did Abraham have? - NONEPracticing - You either walk with God – led by the spirit (John the Baptist – David – alone with God in a wilderness) Or Religious - you belong to a church – led by the church – serve the church – doing traditional church things Doing things vrs loving GodI love my daughters – I have a long list of things to do – things I force myself to do I wake up early – warm the house – warm the car – provide breakfast – drive them to school – pick them up from school – take them to obligations – and I sit in the car for hours at a time waiting for them. Do I do these things because I want them to love me more? (no guarantee there) Do I do these things to prove that I love them? (they probably do even understand my sacrifices) Or do I just do these things because I love them? (I will do them even if they don’t appreciate it) --------------------------- So if Orthodox Jews do not support Jesus in their lives, they cannot surrender to Jesus in their lives, so their salvation power comes not from GOD, for God says salvation comes only via the Son. This is a complex theme, I chose to show you the Orthodox Jew does not understand true salvation by faith in YHWH-Yashuah. However the examples you posted in the OT are indeed examples of faith flowing, from Jewish prophets. Two types of Jews – Practicing and ReligiousGnostic – 3 types of Christian – Practicing – Religious – and the lost (pretenders)Spiritual Christians / spiritual Jews – led by the spirit Believers / Religious – Christian or Jew – churchians – led by the church Non-believers / pagan – the lost However it's a different story for the common Jew in the OT who wasn't a prophet. But did the common , non-prophet Jew, understand salvation via amanuah? I don't think so. Even Christians fail to understand this. Correct – 3 types of Christians – Spiritual / believers / lost (pretenders)Surrender is seen as a difficult step, but is the first principle to getting Jesus power to flow into you daily. This is an example that following Jewish writings is not going to help you achieve salvation, as you believe. How many Jews read the Hebrew OT sola scriptoria? Funny you should say this – I never met a Jew that did know the ahl/OT better than any Christian Bar Mitzvah at an early age is make all the difference
Very few, they read the human commentaries instead, not ask of the Holy Spirit to be their tutor. You just make up factoids as you go along that fir your views Y OU ARE THE SPIRIT DENIER – no such thing as spirit and spiritual or the baptism of the Holy Spirit
You are supporting the wrong support. You talk and talk – yet openly deny Pentecostalism and call it satanic www.chosenpeople.com/salvation-as-interpreted-by-judaism/This is the best of articles I have read explaining the problems with Jews, please read the article. I present it to you to help you. I quote" Although present-day Judaism denies the need for individual and personal salvation, it acknowledges the need for forgiveness, atonement and repentance." You are saying that - Judaism denies the need for individual and personal salvation, it acknowledges the need for (personal) forgiveness, (personal) atonement and (personal) repentance. As a Christian at least the burden is only of yourself Imagine the burden of your personal forgiveness, atonement, and repentance being necessary for the salvation of your entire nation - your people It's not a long article, and well worth reading. In the Jewish Bible salvation comes from the Lord ABSOLUTELY CORRECT SALVATION IS OF THE LORD – YWHY-YESUAH / God/Christ and is a favor bestowed upon the nation as a whole.ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – ISRAEL is God favored nation – chosen people Judaism believes that in the same way that the Lord saved the children of Israel in the past as a nation, He also promises to restore Israel as a nation, meaning collectively, not individually.YES –A COLLECTIVELY of INDIVIDUALSGod’s pact was not made with the individual Israelite but with the whole nation.A COLLECTIVELY of INDIVIDUALS A nation = a collectivity of individuals What makes America a Christian nation? It is full of Christians – founded by Christians – with Christina values = a collectivity of individuals Is ever American a Christian - NO Judaism stresses the fact that instead of “salvation,” one’s relationship with God has to be based on three elements: repentance – “teshuva“; good deeds resulting from repentance – “tzedakah and mitzvot“; and a life of devotion – “kavanah and tefilah.” WOW – sound very Christian to me – repentance – works resulting from repentance – and a live of devotion TO GOD – THE CREATOR – knowns as YHWY in the ahl/OT and Christ in the agl/NT In a recent debate between Messianic Jewish scholar Dr. Michael Brown, and renowned Orthodox Rabbi, Schmuley Boteach, Rabbi Boteach said, “You make it easy for you because you can sin all you want, and then leave it to Jesus to pay the consequences of your actions.”Correct – misunderstanding just leads to debatesPaul – chapter 7 – the inner struggle Just because I am a Christian – doesn’t mean I stop being an animal with all of its (yester ra) It is my conviction that there was a need for sacrifice and although today there is no Temple to fulfill these requirements, in order for there to be salvation from sin there has to be a sacrifice.Correct – misunderstanding just leads to debatesBlood / animal sacrifices were never REQUIRED for the atonement of sin – individually or collectivelyQuorbats – Korbots - is a mainstream Jewish teaching never taught in Christianity What is a Jew to do when far from the Temple = act like a Christian – personal sacrifice of time, energy, or money – help the widows – feed the poor – give of yourself – community service – tend to God’s children Correct – misunderstanding just leads to debatesJudaism is a theocracy – many of those 613 Laws instruct how to govern Temple sacrifices were totally designed as a community welfare system to feed the poor Christian propaganda will tell youHeb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Means that you must come to church every Sat/Sun to tithe – Bible says soThis was NEVER a Jewish requirement – the entire nation of 3 million Jews did NOT come to the temple weekly – it was more like 6-8 times a year – Feast + specials occasions (8th day of birth – Brisk)The Biblical Commandment is to REMEMBER the Sabbath and KEEP IT HOLY In a fox hole at war – in prison – on a ship at sea – in your own home – wherever you assemble Correct – misunderstanding just leads to debatesBlood / animal sacrifices were never REQUIRED for the atonement of sin – individually or collectively AND THE SACRIFICE OF HUMANS IS FORBIDDEN WITHIN THE TORAHwww.gotquestions.org/human-sacrifice.htmlThe Bible makes it quite clear that God hates human sacrifice. The pagan nations that surrounded the Israelites practiced human sacrifice as part of the worship of false gods. God declared that such “worship” was detestable to Him and that He hates it (Deuteronomy 12:31; 18:10). Furthermore, human sacrifice is associated in the Old Testament with evil practices such as sorcery and divination, which are also detestable to God (2 Kings 21:6). So, if God hates human sacrifice, why did He sacrifice Christ on the cross and how could that sacrifice be the payment for our sins? Deu 12:29 “When Adonai your God cuts off before you the nations that you are going in to dispossess, when you have dispossessed them and settled in their land, Deu 12:30 be careful not to be trapped into imitating them after they have been destroyed before you. Do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods? I will do the same.’ Deu 12:31 You are not to act like this toward Adonai your God! For every abomination of Adonai, which He hates, they have done to their gods—they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Deu 18:9 When you enter the land Adonai your God is giving you, you are not to learn to do the abominations of those nations. Deu 18:10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, 2Ki 21:6 He also made his son pass through the fire, practiced soothsaying and divination, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in Adonai’s eyes to provoke Him. HUMANS SACRIFICE IS FORBIDDEN WITHIN THE TORAH – HATED BY GODAll materialism teaches that this world of flesh and biology is all there is – dead is dead – dead is nothing Crime is only a crime if you are caught – if you escape punishment in this world – you escape punishment Christians will never proselyte Jews by preaching the Sacrifice of Jesus upon the Cross !IT IS THE RESURRECTION THAT PROVES – LIFE LIVESLive lives on – spirit lives on after the body dies – there is a real and active afterlife AND YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN FULL VIEW of those in that after life – they saw everything – they know all about you – and you will stand judgment – FOR EVERYTHINGWho will pass this judgment – NO ONESo then what? – you have a Divine Pardon – or you face Proportional Punishment as you await The First Resurrection Proportional Punishment – 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad. BECAUSE you are a satan believer – you imagine hell fire – torture – brimstoneJews are NOT satan believers – this is a period of torment = shame – regretponderingconfusion.com/papers.php?id=psychology“… if there is a God and an afterlife, and I do eventually meet my maker; will I be able to look Him straight in the eye and shake His hand, or will I be ashamed and embarrassed for who I really am?”i.e. = all agony is self-imposed
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2022 15:24:57 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
This thread is not meant to be discussing Jewish way of salvation, but about whether Jewish ways are not based on the Hebrew torah. You support the Jewish teachings, rather than reading the Hebrew torah ALONE, sola scriptoria. Instead Jews follow traditions found in their commentaries, etc.
Paul quotes how Jews are saved in the OT torah
Ro 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Ro 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Paul is quoting De 30:12-13 and 14.
De 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
What I notice here is the word "amanuah" is missing. Did Paul misquote the OT torah? I don't think so.
In Moses last song to the Jews, Moses speaks and sings a song to help them remember salvation:-
De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth (Amanuah)
I read the whole passage, their is nothing about Jews required to have amanuah in God. All they have to do is guard the words of the torah in their heart.
Did they miss something?
Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.
This is wrong approach to the God of heaven. How can humans guard and do all the torah has written?
Reading before there is only this story of amanuah, the first time the word appears
Ex 17:12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
So how did the Jews get salvation wrong? All the Lord has said , we will do?
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Only one small prophet writes how salvation is achieved in the OT yet such a verse is easily missed.
And in the saddest book we read a wonderful promise
La 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness
So if GOD is Amanuah, how are His children to respond? Like Moses (a simile of god) required help on the battlefield, Aaron and Hur did "Amanuah" to Moses, they responded with amanuah.
I would like to know how Jews read their prayer books and what's inside them, so I can understand how they pray and what prayers they pray? Never been able to read inside their prayer books, in English? Are these verses from the OT? So if they pray verses from the OT, isn't this amanuah, faithfully responding to God? Sometimes I am puzzled by the Jewish view of salvation, why it didn't work for them?
Were they like James said
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Reading words, is not the same as asking for those words to empower you?
Dave quotes" Judaism stresses the fact that instead of “salvation,” one’s relationship with God has to be based on three elements: repentance – “teshuva“; good deeds resulting from repentance – “tzedakah and mitzvot“; and a life of devotion – “kavanah and tefilah.”
D" WOW – sound very Christian to me – R" Yes, but no mention of "amanuah" here?
RP" Very few, they read the human commentaries instead, not ask of the Holy Spirit to be their tutor.
D"You just make up factoids as you go along that fit your views
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Paul describes the two methods of salvation very well
"doing works of the law" is very Jewish "hearing of amanuah" is also from OT times, but not known very well by Jews
Ga 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Abraham had amanuah and for this reason GOD responded to his amanuah with His amanuah.
Ga 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Paul is not doing away with LAW, but the way the LAW is followed, not by "doing works of the law" but by having faith in the law.
Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
As Paul says here.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
ANd how does the works of the law, as our schoolmaster come to us? By the HS, we have a conviction to obey the law, hence the Jews do the works of the law. But the HS also convicts us to respond to the law with faith, and this is a renewed breath of salvation from Jesus, who redeemed us from the curse of the LAW.
Heb 5:10 ¶ Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
So Jesus sets up the heavenly sanctuary for atoning humans in salvation. The earthly sanctuary is required no more.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
So God raises up in the OT a renewed way to salvation, based on faith, not works of the Law using human powers alone.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
So do you have an article that explains how Jews use "amanuah" in their daily walk of life? Do Jews understand the purpose of "amanuah" in their lives? Or is it just "trust" ? Whatever that means?
Why is "amanuah" not written so much in the OT? Perhaps God wanted to set up obedience by doing, because the people were stiff necks and He knew they would seek Him this way? Not as Abraham did, by faith.
My point in all this is you do not follow the torah as it reads, it says in the NT torah, the shedim sinned from the beginning, so the shedim are with free will to sin, and are opposing elohiym powers we humans are not to support by faith. You need to change your view of the shedim and recognize them as sinning angels deceiving humans so they sin more, thus forget God.
SHalom
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Post by Dillon on Oct 20, 2022 15:35:44 GMT -5
The Fourth Wise Man | Full Movie | Martin Sheen | Alan Arkin | Eileen Brennan
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2022 15:10:22 GMT -5
Thank you for the post Dillon.
I have no means to watch a 1 hour long movie, and my WWW credit would be exhausted too soon. So I read the script, yes its a wonderful story.
"The Fourth Wise Man is a 1985 American television film directed by Michael Ray Rhodes and starring Martin Sheen, Eileen Brennan and Alan Arkin. The story was adapted from Henry van Dyke Jr.'s 1895 short story, The Other Wise Man. But there is another story, about another wise man, a fourth one, first told by Henry VanDyke, and then retold in similar words many times over. This is how the story goes.
The day came when he put aside the name Artaban, which meant “great magician”, and chose another name, Simon, which means, “the man who listens”. And for more than 30 years he listens for any word that tells him of a man who will become king of the nations. Throughout those long years he read the words of the prophets, and listens and waits. And then it happens. In Palestine there has arisen a man called Jesus from Nazareth. He is a wonderful teacher, a healer of the sick, and a man whom people call “the Son of David.”
Simon rushes home, retrieves the pearl from its hiding place, and makes plans to return to far-off Palestine. Perhaps this Jesus is the baby, now grown and ready to become the King of the world.
Simon looks at the face of the terrified girl, and the old dilemma faces him. What can he do? How can he help? As the soldier continues to pull the girl on down the street, Simon shouts for him to stop! “Will this pay the bill?” he asks, anguish suffusing his face. He has reached into that pocket and brought out the pearl that he had been saving all these years. The soldier eyes that gem with greedy eyes and says, “sure!” and taking the pearl, he lets the girl return to the family home.
As he lifts the weight, Simon catches Jesus looking him straight in the eye, and in those moments, when their eyes meet, Simon knows that he found the one he has been looking for.
With tears streaming down his face he says, “Oh, my Lord, I am so sorry I am so late. I’m so sorry that I have no gift to help you.” It was then that Jesus reached out and touched Simon on the arm. “You have come just in time, Simon, and that is gift enough. You have given yourself. That is all the gift I have ever wanted.”
Children you and I do not have gifts like gold, or frankincense or myrrh, nor do we have sapphires, rubies or pearls. So what could we give him during these days of Christmas? Any guesses?
It's a powerful movie Dillon, when you give yourself to Jesus, you give up everything to Him.
These acts of kindness came from where? The man empowered by self, or the man empowered by GOD ? Looking on the outside, one cannot tell, for "amanuah" is a gift of power that one cannot see, but it hoped for, that comes from heaven into the human who asks for it. I find this is the story of the movie, and a faith that is more than knowledge, has actions of loving flow, because God is love.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 22, 2022 6:27:34 GMT -5
In Moses last song to the Jews, Moses speaks and sings a song to help them remember salvation:- De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth (Amanuah) I read the whole passage, their is nothing about Jews required to have amanuah in God. All they have to do is guard the words of the torah in their heart. Did they miss something?
Deu 32:4 Perfect is the worke of the most mightie God, for all his wayes are iudgement: He is a God of trueth, without wickednesse, righteous and iust is he.
Deu 32:4 The Rock—blameless is His work. Indeed, all His ways are just. God of faithfulness without iniquity, righteous and upright is He.
Deu 32:4 The Rock! —perfect is His work, For all His ways are just; God of stedfastness, and without iniquity: Righteous and upright is He.
Amanuah = truth – faithfulness – steadfastness All different terms than your demand it is prayers to Jesus – or adherence to a diet law - or which Day you call Sabbath
Too bad you cannot grasp the meaning of - guard the words of the torah in their heart. ----------------------------
This is wrong approach to the God of heaven. How can humans guard and do all the torah has written? DUH – man cannot – even the Jews knew this
So how did the Jews get salvation wrong? Your teaching that Jews like Elish and Elijah – or Isaiah and Abraham – did not believe in YHYW and were NOT saved – is REJECTED – as paramountly stupid and 100% ANTI-Semetic
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. You teach man has no soul – only the HS Why do you teach that the HS might NOT be upright with you? -------------------
La 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness YEP – ever day that you awake are able to serve God is a good day – the older you get – the more you realize it
Dave quotes" Judaism stresses the fact that instead of “salvation,” one’s relationship with God has to be based on three elements: repentance – “teshuva“; good deeds resulting from repentance – “tzedakah and mitzvot“; and a life of devotion – “kavanah and tefilah.” D" WOW – sound very Christian to me – R" Yes, but no mention of "amanuah" here?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Paul describes the two methods of salvation very well
"doing works of the law" is very Jewish "hearing of amanuah" is also from OT times, but not known very well by Jews YES Robert – there are three types of Christians or Jews HEARING GOD – Spiritual – Robert and the SDA absolutely deny the the spirit and the Baptism of the Spirit – they call it satanaic – secret knowledge - unknown to them so they MOCK it DOING THINGS – believers – dietary laws – special prayers at special times And the lost
So Jesus sets up the heavenly sanctuary for atoning humans in salvation. But that did even begin until 1844 – we are discussing the ahl/OT --------------------------
My point in all this is you do not follow the torah as it reads, it says in the NT torah, the shedim sinned from the beginning, CORRECT ROBERT _ IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture
the shedim are with free will to sin, They do what they do – as spirits or as mortals They do what they do because that is their commandment from God Gen 1:22 And God blesseth them, saying, 'Be fruitful, and multiply, ---------------------------
The Fourth Wise Man With tears streaming down his face he says, “Oh, my Lord, I am so sorry I am so late. I’m so sorry that I have no gift to help you.” It was then that Jesus reached out and touched Simon on the arm. “You have come just in time, Simon, and that is gift enough. You have given yourself. That is all the gift I have ever wanted.”
It's a powerful movie Dillon, when you give yourself to Jesus, you give up everything to Him. These acts of kindness came from where? The man empowered by self, or the man empowered by GOD?
If you wouldn’t take a short cut – and do your homework proper – you would not ask such rediculas questions
Too bad you cannot grasp the meaning of - guard the words of the torah in their heart.
Qurobats / Korbots – what do you do when you are not at a Temple – you act like Christ The reason the 4th Wise Man was late – is because he stopped and ministered to his servant – then then the sick Jesus says to him – “Every time you were ministering to another – you were ministering to ME”
These acts of kindness came from where? The man empowered by self, or the man empowered by GOD? Answer – NO these events were NOT examples of miracles performed by the HS through man These were just examples of a man – KNOWING WHAT IS RIGHT – sacrificing of himself for others – at his own expense and peril – even if it caused him to be late
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Post by Dave on Oct 22, 2022 10:36:57 GMT -5
Too bad you cannot grasp the meaning of - guard the words of the torah in their heart.Qurobats / Korbots – what do you do when you are not at a Temple – you act like a Christian jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9468-korbanḲORBAN (lit. "an offering"):1. A sacrifice of any kind, whether bloody or bloodless; term used by Josephus in the sense also of a vow-offering, or of something devoted to God ("Ant." iv. 4, § 4; "Contra Ap." i. 22; Mark vii. 11). 2. The sacred treasury in which the gifts for the Temple, or the alms-box in which the gifts for the poor, were kept (Josephus, "B. J." ii. 9, § 4; comp. Matt. xxvii. 6). 2. The term "ḳorban" was frequently used in vows. By saying, "Let my property be to you ḳorban"—that is, a gift consecrated to God Korban - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Korban The term Korban primarily refers to sacrificial offerings given from humans to God for the purpose of doing homage, Understanding Biblical Sacrifice (Korbanot)www.myjewishlearning.com › Evergreen These sacrifices were called korbanot. The word korban means “something which draws close.” Their purpose was to bring people closer to God. The Korban Minchah - Torah.org torah.org › Parsha Classes The word Korban, on the other hand, comes from the Hebrew root “K*R*B – meaning “to come close”. A Korban is a vehicle for Man to come close to God. For ... korban - Wiktionaryhttps://en.wiktionary.org › wiki › korban From Ancient Greek κορβᾶν (korbân), from Hebrew קָרְבָּן (qorbān, “offering, sacrifice”). Too bad you cannot grasp the meaning of - guard the words of the torah in their heart. Mat 22:36 'Teacher, which is the great command in the Law?' Mat 22:37 And Jesus said to him, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding— Mat 22:38 this is a first and great command; Mat 22:39 and the second is like to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; Mat 22:40 on these—the two commands—all the law and the prophets do hang.' The reason the 4th Wise Man was late – is because he stopped and ministered to his servant – then then the sick Jesus says to him – “Every time you were ministering to another – you were ministering to ME” Gnostic – it is not enough just to follow Christ – we are to be a Christ These acts of kindness came from where? The man empowered by self, or the man empowered by GOD?These were just examples of a man – KNOWING WHAT IS RIGHT – TRYING TO SERVE HIS KING - (yester tov) sacrificing of himself for others – at his own expense and peril – even if it caused him to be late – even onto death Joh 15:12 'This is my command, that ye love one another, according as I did love you; Joh 15:13 greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends; FYI – I love this movie – have told you about it before – suggested it to you before(even if it was produced by the Church of Later Day Saints)It was written by (wiki) - Henry Jackson van Dyke Jr. was an American author, educator, diplomat, and Presbyterian clergyman. United States Ambassador to Luxembourg (1913–1917), 100% Mainstream Presbyterian ChristianityRobert – with his SDA teaching – just didn’t get it – missed the point – confused These acts of kindness came from where?I have asked Robert before - why does Rabbi Friedman understand the spiritual nature of Christianity better than the average SDA Now I have to ask - why does a Persisan Zorasterian Magi - understand Christianity better than the average SDA
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2022 14:56:50 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, you write alot, and the only bit that makes us different, you barely discussed.
RP" These acts of kindness came from where? The man empowered by self, or the man empowered by GOD?
D"These were just examples of a man – KNOWING WHAT IS RIGHT – TRYING TO SERVE HIS KING - (yester tov) sacrificing of himself for others – at his own expense and peril – even if it caused him to be late – even onto death
R" So you admit the man is empowering himself, using human powers to do these yester tov good deeds?
Scriptures really describe your notions well
"Isa 64:6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name,"
These acts of kindness came from where? The man empowered by self.
And for such deeds, God sees them
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
As I said before, you do not understand the functional role of faith...
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Paul describes the two methods of salvation very well
"doing works of the law" is very Jewish "hearing of amanuah" is also from OT times, but not known very well by Jews
Ga 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Abraham had amanuah and for this reason GOD responded to his amanuah with His amanuah.
So this is yet another example why following the Jewish talmud, and their commentaries on the Hebrew torah leads you to wrong theology.
D" Too bad you cannot grasp the meaning of - guard the words of the torah in their heart.
R" Explain yourself than?
RP" My point in all this is you do not follow the torah as it reads, it says in the NT torah, the shedim sinned from the beginning, D"CORRECT ROBERT _ IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture
RP" the shedim are with free will to sin,
D"They do what they do – as spirits or as mortals They do what they do because that is their commandment from God Gen 1:22 And God blesseth them, saying, 'Be fruitful, and multiply,
R" how can you say "correct Robert" than say IF I knew the archons did as they did, shape shifted and changed form, and so their deeds are not considered sinning deeds at all, not even fornication, not even murder, not even lying to sexually produce offspring under their kind? Are you mad Dave? you twist scripture to suit your own inventions...
Jesus said the shedim is a murderer and lies, and a father of no truth in him. John says the shedim sin like humans do, from the beginning.
Humans were also blessed to go forth and multiply? But our deeds are sinning, but the archons are not? You have no angels that can sin, no archons that sin, none of your creatures has free will except humans, is nothing but a myth.
And now you follow the Jewish idea you can do yester tov using humans powers of self. And this grants you access to heaven for eternity, is pure myth.
Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
You are saved by Jesus living His life in you, not by humans doing yester tov using human living powers of self. IF you understood your spark has to die in baptism and you are raised under the spirit of Jesus, He lives in you, He walks for you, He does deeds through you.
No, Dave writes instead
D" Gnostic – it is not enough just to follow Christ – we are to be a Christ
R" How can you be "a Christ" if your deeds are done by yourself?
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
THis verse says after baptism, Jesus spirit dwells in me daily, He lives in, He works through me, He talks His words using my lips, this is what faith means.
Ro 8:26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
Even the Spirit of Jesus, shows us the prayer promises to pray for, as we humans might not understand all His words of power as we ought.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Jesus intercedes for us daily, and his spirit works according to the will of God. So Jesus makes us a candle out of us, and we do as He does, walks as He walks, and talk as He talked.
Paul explains how it is to live under YHWH-Yashua
"Ro 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"
Who is this stumbling stone?
Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Paul quotes the OT
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence
Both eben and tsuwr is quoted here
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Quoted also, the corner "eben" comes to us by "aman" a related word of "amanuah" faith.
D" Now I have to ask - why does a Persisan Zorasterian Magi - understand Christianity better than the average SDA
R" Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
All our human yester Tov is like filthy rags, the Scripture says.
Isa 64:6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name,
However if we call upon the name of God who is faithful, then we humans also respond in faith, and God's power flows into us and the yester tov deeds are God's deeds flowing through us.
Scripture describes this process easily
Ho 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
Take with you His words, and His powers will fill your lips and hands, you will become candles for Jesus.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 23, 2022 4:47:22 GMT -5
As I said before, you do not understand the functional role of faith... Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
If you understand - Tell me of your SDA miracles you perform
Paul describes the two methods of salvation very well "doing works of the law" is very Jewish "hearing of amanuah" is also from OT times, but not known very well by Jews YEP – Spiritual – Born Again Christians / Believers / and the lost
Ga 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Abraham had amanuah and for this reason GOD responded to his amanuah with His amanuah.
YEP – before the Torah was ever written – Abraham GAURDED THE WORDS OF THE TORAH IN HIS HEART Gen 26:5 because that Abraham hath hearkened to My voice, and keepeth My charge, My commands, My statutes, and My laws.' D" Too bad you cannot grasp the meaning of - guard the words of the torah in their heart. ---------------
RP" My point in all this is you do not follow the torah as it reads, it says in the NT torah, the shedim sinned from the beginning, D"CORRECT ROBERT - IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture
RP" the shedim are with free will to sin, D"NO - They do what they do – as spirits or as mortals They do what they do because that is their commandment from God Gen 1:22 And God blesseth them, saying, 'Be fruitful, and multiply,
R" how can you say "correct Robert" than say IF I knew the archons did as they did, shape shifted and changed form, and so their deeds are not considered sinning deeds at all, not even fornication IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture
Jesus said the shedim is a murderer and lies, and a father of no truth in him. John says the shedim sin like humans do, from the beginning. IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture
Humans were also blessed to go forth and multiply? But our deeds are sinning, but the archons are not? When humans reproduce out of their own kind – they commit the same sin as the archon D" Gnostic – it is not enough just to follow Christ – we are to be a Christ R" How can you be "a Christ" if your deeds are done by yourself? YEP – how can Peter be a satan – you demand that a disciple of the Jesus Christ is possessed by your satan -------------------------------
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
THis verse says after baptism, Jesus spirit dwells in me daily, He lives in, He works through me, He talks His words using my lips, this is what faith means.
Your claim to be Christ is rejected – you do not even preach a Christian message Your claim to be a Born Again Christian is rejected – you deny the spirit You teach that every man is a Born Again Christian empowered by the Holy Spirit
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2022 15:34:14 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" If you understand - Tell me of your SDA miracles you perform R" Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee,
I pray this prayer promise (faith) every night, asking God to call on me at exact times I choose, and He does.
I often have trouble sleeping, and use these promises
Ge 2:21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall
And
2 Corinthians 10:5 ...captivate every thought
And
Psalm 141:3 Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips.
When temptations comes I pray for these promises
"Show me your way of escape" "You promise I can bear the temptation" "Resist the devil and He will flee" "Lead me not into temptation" "Deliver me from evil"
So praying these prayer promises of faith, cause small but meaningful miracles of His grace in my life, even just last night.
You speak of major and public miracles. One needs to fast and pray fervently for these Jesus tells us, one also requires meekness and humility on a grand scale. Ye are not to test the Lord Scripture says,
RP" Ga 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Abraham had amanuah and for this reason GOD responded to his amanuah with His amanuah.
D" YEP – before the Torah was ever written – Abraham GAURDED THE WORDS OF THE TORAH IN HIS HEART Gen 26:5 because that Abraham hath hearkened to My voice, and keepeth My charge, My commands, My statutes, and My laws.' D" Too bad you cannot grasp the meaning of - guard the words of the torah in their heart.
Rob replies"
Why do you mock and twist, obviously both words run in the salvation process.
Once you practice praying prayer promises of faith, your heart (mind) is guarding the words of the torah, etc.
What you are presenting is you can guard the words of the torah without praying for the powers of God to enter you, is a practice Paul called works of the Law, and does not mean anything to God. Such works are as filthy rags, scripture says.
So you are wrong to say I cannot understand "shamar" to guard, these is a fruit arising from using faith in the torah.
You have to make harmony from all the verses on a theme, not pick and isolate one verse over another, as you do.
RP" RP" My point in all this is you do not follow the torah as it reads, it says in the NT torah, the shedim sinned from the beginning, D"CORRECT ROBERT - IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture R" What is the point in talking to you Dave?
You wrote an oxymoron, a single sentence. Where is your discussion, your view clearly defined?
The bulk of Scripture says the shedim sinned.
What is your problem?
The bulk of Scripture says the problem's is always about sin.
Not as you claim, creatures do what they were created as.
You repeat your verbose brevity to mock, Dave does not follow Scripture.
Shedim sinned.
But Dave has no archons that can sin. Dave has no devils that can sin. Dave has no angels that can sin either.
So you make up stuff. "IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture" And this "verbose brevity " is supposed to satisfy ...
Gen 6 is NOT in the beginning. Scripture says many times, the shedim sinned in the beginning, long before man even existed.
Dave ignores this. You even ignore time lines.
D" When humans reproduce out of their own kind – they commit the same sin as the archon R" How is a technical lab experiment supposed to be natural intercourse causing offspring outside of our kind?
Really Dave you come up with some twists.
The word "arche" means "rulers" not some specific creature Scripture tells us nothing about.
Instead you use Gnostic lies to fill in the Scripture. You invent stuff.
John says shedim sinned from beginning as humans sin.
What is so twisting to understand this?
Jude says the angels that sin are to be punished as humans who sin in Sodom were, with everlasting fire.
Jesus says the shedim is a murder, a liar and has not truth in him, in John 8. But Dave ignores all this.
Your shedim have no free will ans cannot sin, yet they shape shift and do evil yet this is not considered moral evil by you. So your shedim never sin, only tempt man to sin. Your Jewish writing certainly add support to Dave, because not a single Jewish writing says the "shedim sin", so this proves Dave is not following the NT torah, which speaks of Shedim that sin, nor are you following the OT torah which says the cherub sin (Ezekiel 28).
You stick to your talmud commentaries and precepts of the Jews, for they are really helping you to follow Hebrew torah well.
D" how can Peter be a satan – you demand that a disciple of the Jesus Christ is possessed by your satan R" It's easy to listen to Satan at times, even while being a supporter of Jesus, we have free will to choose between two masters. Your words of possession is not true. Some of us lose our free will to choose and become possessed, our conscience is seared like a hot iron and we fail to hear God speaking to us.
D" Your claim to be Christ is rejected – you do not even preach a Christian message Your claim to be a Born Again Christian is rejected – you deny the spirit You teach that every man is a Born Again Christian empowered by the Holy Spirit R" You can't even read my words correctly can you?
THis is what I posted"
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
THis verse says after baptism, Jesus spirit dwells in me daily, He lives in, He works through me, He talks His words using my lips, this is what faith means.
And this is what Dave replied
D" Your claim to be Christ is rejected – you do not even preach a Christian message R" No reasons given, no explanation, no discussion.
D" Your claim to be a Born Again Christian is rejected – you deny the spirit R" No reasons given, no explanation, no discussion. What does Dave mean by "the spirit" ? No idea. He does not explain his view. D" You teach that every man is a Born Again Christian empowered by the Holy Spirit R" This is untrue. I never said that.
"Jesus spirit dwells in me daily,"
You are not empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Jesus spirit, that is breathed upon you daily, by the Holy Spirit.
Where does Scripture speak of this?
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
David prays for a daily creative process from the compassion-centre of the HS, to elohiym to give David a right spirit. The NT torah tells us who this right spirit is,
Ro 8:11 ....by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
And how is this achieved in us daily....?
Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
By the HS as the OT torah writes here plainly.
Why is salvation so complex?
Ps 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Because elohiym brings salvation to us, from the entire divine family of the godhead, this is further explained here
Ps 91:1 ¶ He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Both the Father and the Shadday come together, with faith
Isa 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour (yasha)( Jesus OT name and NT name in Hebrew). 9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Notice Yashua has with Him the Holy Spirit, and we have the feminine love (ahabuh) of Jesus over His people, is in fact a community flow of elohiym. Notice the flow is written as "his HS" and "his feminine love".
Notice I try to discuss and defend my views with Dave,
But Dave just mocks and posts brevity...
D" You teach that every man is a Born Again Christian empowered by the Holy Spirit R" I do not teach no such thing Dave.
The Hebrew torah teaches this
"We are empowered by Jesus daily by using the words of the Father, that flow because of Jesus victory of sin, on our behalf; His words flow into us daily by faith, as we pray them, this salvation process of growing in Jesus, is administrated in us by the second Comforter, the Holy Spirit, while Jesus our first Comforter is a human high priest in the heavenly sanctuary, mediating for us in all the divinity of elohiym. "
Such a process causes born again humans to guard the torah in our hearts so the Scriptures declare
Re 12:17 Born Again Remnant ... which keep (guard) the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 24, 2022 5:16:13 GMT -5
D" If you understand - Tell me of your SDA miracles you perform R" Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, I often have trouble sleeping, and use these promises And you eventually tire and fall to sleep? - LEGENDARY!RP" RP" My point in all this is you do not follow the torah as it reads, it says in the NT torah, the shedim sinned from the beginning, D"CORRECT ROBERT - IF you DO NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 THEN – you will not understand the bulk of scripture R" What is the point in talking to you Dave? You wrote an oxymoron, a single sentence. Where is your discussion, your view clearly defined? Proof you do not pay attention – More than 3 years now – and you still refuse to hear me Proof you do NOT study scripture – you only present your church dogmaThe bulk of Scripture says the shedim sinned. Absolutely – If you do NOT understand what happened in Gen 6 Then you will not understand much of the ahl/OT – nor the agl/NT evidentlyThe bulk of Scripture says the problem's is always about sin. YEP – man’s problem – Rom 5:12But Dave has no archons that can sin. Dave has no devils that can sin. Why does Ellen White SDA-ism use LIES and misrepresentation to witness for the Lord Very Christian – it is a FASLE WITNESS – and it is your only argumentGen 6 is NOT in the beginning. Scripture says many times, the shedim sinned in the beginning, long before man even existed. The word ‘archie’ beginning – just means the beginning – Does NOT mandate Gen 1:1D" When humans reproduce out of their own kind – they commit the same sin as the archon R" How is a technical lab experiment supposed to be natural intercourse causing offspring outside of our kind? Pig + human = cimera Monkey + human = chimera Archon + human = Nephilim Archon + animal = chimeraJude says the angels that sin are to be punished as humans who sin in Sodom were, with everlasting fire. Jesus says the shedim is a murder, a liar and has not truth in him, in John 8. But Dave ignores all this. J ude also tells us that those ‘sinning messengers’ are locked away in chains But Robert overlooks scripture to make his SDA doctrine fitYour shedim have no free will ans cannot sin, yet they shape shift and do evil yet this is not considered moral evil by you. So your shedim never sin, only tempt man to sin. Why does Ellen White SDA-ism use LIES and misrepresentation to witness for the Lord Very Christian – it is a FASLE WITNESS – and it is your only argument------------------------------------- You stick to your talmud commentaries Why does Ellen White SDA-ism use LIES and misrepresentation to witness for the Lord Very Christian – it is a FASLE WITNESS – and it is your only argument------------------------------------- D" how can Peter be a satan – you demand that a disciple of the Jesus Christ is possessed by your satan R" It's easy to listen to Satan at times, even while being a supporter of Jesus, IF the disciples were possessed by satan – doesn’t this make your Christianity just satanic------------------------------ Notice I try to discuss and defend my views with Dave, But Dave just mocks and posts brevity... YES – you attempt to spread your Ellen White satanology here – IT IS NOT WORKINGD" You teach that every man is a Born Again Christian empowered by the Holy Spirit R" I do not teach no such thing Dave. Why does Ellen White SDA-ism use LIES and misrepresentation to witness for the Lord Very Christian – it is a FASLE WITNESS – and it is your only argumentYOU TEACH – man is not spirit – man has no soul – man has no spirit of his own All man is = biology – empowered by the HS And why man dies – man has no spirit to enter the afterlife – the HS only takes our memories to heaven You also teach only ONE judgment for all – lake of fire – regardless of the amount of your sin You teach that even the most wicked – have the comfort of a peaceful rest in peace – until resurrected to be put to death You teach a Zoroastrian brand of pantheism - we are all god – (fragments of god) You deny that each man is an individual soul – an individual spirit of his won Man is just biology – driven around by the HS But refuse to answer – why your HS sins within each man But you refuse to answer why you teach that the HS is a sinner You deny that Christ is the Creator – the image of God – Col 1:15 You deny that God created the archon – Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Jo 1:3 You deny that the Nephilim exist You do not understand the iniquity of the Amorite – the Sons of Anak You do not understand the God commanded GENOCYDE of the Amorite – tried to deny that it even happened – tried to deny scripture itself You do not understand the origin of the ‘other gods’ of the ahl/OT Levant – tried to deny that even existed You do not understand the origin of all pagan gods – all space gods – all space aliens You deny the connection between Gen 6 and the shadow governments of this world You deny that Jesus Christ is God Himself – God incarnate You preach against the idea of One True God – YHWY and YESUA must be two different individuals for you You deny the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God You deny that Jesus spoke to the disciples after the passion – Acts 1 You deny the promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – Acts 1 You deny there is a difference between the Baptism of John and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – Acts 1, 16, 19 You deny Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 – it is not God’s creation of perfection science uncovers – but satan’s corruption = God’s flawed world You teach that a created being – changed his own role within God’s creation against God’s Will – Then changed God’s Plan – also against God’s Will You teach a weak god and empower your satan angel to godhood and the ruler of all men You even teach that your satan and man KILLED GOD THE CREATOR And all you have to do to make it work = deny the bulk of scripture and teach a different religion Ellen White scripture is NOT mainstream Judeo-Christianity – it is pagan Zorasterism – two gods – a god of good and a god of bad locked in an eternal struggle – the Yin and the Yang Judeo-Christianity teaches – there is only ONE TRUE GODWho created everything and everything for a purpose – even the ra – Gen 1:1 Who created the WORLD – allowing for DARKNESS (IGNORANCE) - Gen 1:2 So God could introduce the LIGHT – TRUTH – CHRIST – Gen 1:3 AND GOD SAID IT WAS TOV – Gen 1:31 IF – you demand that what happened in Gen 1:2 = SIN Then God is wrong (Gen 1:31) + Jude + 2 Peter = all your satan and the sinning angels no longer exist They are locked away IF you say that what happened in Gen 1:2 is a SIN – but satan and the archon are still here Then God is wrong (Gen 1:31) and Jude and 2 Peter are wrong (wiki) The First Great Awakening or the Evangelical Revival was a series of Christian revivals that swept Britain and its thirteen North American colonies in the 1730s and 1740s. The revival movement permanently affected Protestantism as adherents strove to renew individual piety and religious devotion. (wiki) The Second Great Awakening was a Protestant religious revival during the early 19th century in the United States. The Second Great Awakening, which spread religion through revivals and emotional preaching, sparked a number of reform movements Mormonism and their additional New Testament – is a NEW REPLACEMENT Christianity Jehovah’s Witness and their Watch Tower - – is a NEW REPLACEMENT Christianity Miller / Ellen White and her additional writings – is a NEW REPLACEMENT Christianity And all you have to do to make it work = deny the bulk of scripture and teach a different religion Ellen White scripture is NOT mainstream Judeo-Christianity It is a different religion introduced in the 2nd Great Awakening SDA advent math – also comes from the Second Great Awakening – of the Bahai Faith of Islam The Advent math of the coming of the Islamic Madhi = SDA Advent math Robert claims that I MOCK him and his Ellen White SDA teaching I say Robert has proven beyond any shadow of doubt – he teaches a different religion opposed to mainstream Judeo-Christianity
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 16:07:12 GMT -5
56 verses use arche Mt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, From first time humans male and female were created. Mt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. From first time humans were married, created feature by God, bringing Eve to Adam Mt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Not enough context. Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. From first time humans experienced tribulation until experiencing tribulations even now. Mr 1:1 ¶ The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; We can assume "beginning" to imply Jesus taught a gospel to Adam and Eve, after they sinned, thus required Jesus as their Saviour to save them. Mr 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. From first time humans experienced creation Mr 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. {sorrows: the word in the original importeth "the pains of a woman in travail"} Already commented on Mr 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Already commented on Lu 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; Beginning, from the first time eye witnesses saw things of Jesus. This verse speaks of AD 30 to AD 33 as the Beginning of witnessing to Jesus costly salvation process for humans, his death on the Cross, his life of holiness, etc. Lu 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates "archie", and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: Lu 20:20 ¶ And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power "archie" and authority of the governor. Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Beginning, implying Jesus was with the Father from eternity Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. as above Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. beginning, the first time Jesus did miracles on earth as a God-Man Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Beginning, God knows all things in a human before they do anything good or bad Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. Already commented on Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. {of his own: or, from his own will or disposition} From context, humans and shedim are in this context, beginning implies the shedim sinned before humans sinned, (or at the same time as humans sinned? does not fit?) Jesus declares the sinning shedim to be a father (ab) of lies, sinning etc. "Ab" means a provider to falsehood. Thus the sinning shedim are providers of sin, agents of sinning. Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Beginning, from when Jesus called them to witness for Him Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. Already commented on Ac 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners "archie", and let down to the earth: Ac 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners "archie"; and it came even to me: Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Beginning, when this occurs first in time. Ac 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first "achie" among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities "archie", nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, not a reference to when things first happened in time, perhaps to the first ? 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule "archie" and all authority and power. Eph 1:21 Far above all principality "archie" , and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities "archie" and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities "archie", against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. {flesh...: Gr. blood and flesh} {spiritual...: or, wicked spirits} {high: or, heavenly} ?? Php 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. beginning when the gospel started in time Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities "archie", or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. {in...: or, among all} ??Jesus is the beginning of the NT assembly? Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality "archie" and power: Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities "archie" and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. {in it: or, in himself} 2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning "archie" chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Tit 3:1 ¶ Put them in mind to be subject to principalities "archie" and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: This Greek word "arche" has to be the same as Hebrew word "re'shiyth" So we should look as the meanings of re'shiyth as well. Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first "archie" began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; ?? Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; beginning of our first time seeking Jesus in time Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first "archie" principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. First time things were taught Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles "archie" of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of rep Beginning principles of knowing Jesus Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning "archie" of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. {without descent: Gr. without pedigree} Jesus has no beginning of origin, like this High Priest simile. 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. Already commented on 1Jo 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; Beginning, when we first heard the gospel 1Jo 2:7 ¶ Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Referring to when in time, the beginning of Jesus on earth, or the beginning of Jesus to Adam, with the gospel? or both? 1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. As above 1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, bec Already comments on 1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. Already comments on 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. When humans sin, our sinning is the same as the shedim. The shedim sins from the beginning of the shedim's creation. Ezekiel 28 tells us the cherub was sinless but after a while chose to sin, becoming a sinning cherub. The cherub are also termed messengers for God. The NT speaks of a war over messengers, fighting ans being ejected from heaven. 1Jo 3:11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. {message: or, commandment} Already commented on 2Jo 1:5 ¶ And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. Already commented on 2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Already commented on Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first "archie" estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {first estate: or, principality} Some messengers did not live under the created beginnings God provided for them, but these messengers choose a different beginnings themselves. This happens when they sin. This is paralleled to humans as Sodom, who also sin, and make a new beginning of sinning for themselves. So God ends their sinning existence as an example of what God will do to these sinning messengers. "These everlasting chains under darkness" refer to what? Being phsycially locked up in a prison, or being enslaved by sinning, which once started and pursued one cannot return from, it becomes a passion of chaos, you are enslaved by the sinning and your thinking even loses control. Again this is a parallel to Sodom and why God could end their existence, as an example of what is going to happen to the sinning angels too. Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the begi The begininning when things first happen Re 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; {of the Laodiceans: or, in Laodicea} Already comments on Re 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Already comments on Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Already comments on -------------- Dave " The word ‘archie’ beginning – just means the beginning – Does NOT mandate Gen 1:1Rob" So you have an excuse to change Scripture to twist to a different meaning. Your choice. My understanding of "archie" is the first time something happens. (so I agree with you, but ) SO when did SINNING first happen? Dave says Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: SO death entered only after Adam sinned? Not what Dave says, Gnostics says natural death happens along with living, a flawed creation? Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Since "death" and the "death death" second death, is mentioned here before Adam sins, so the concept of death had already existed before Adam sinned, including the second death. So humans are not the first creatures to have sinned, otherwise why would GOD give a rule to bring death unto man, through sin? This process must already exist. " A poetry parallel. If a 2 yr old child comes near the stove. Don't touch mother says. Instinctively the child reaches out to touch. Hot burnie. The child hears but does not understand. How can it? So the Mother smacks the child and lets it cry so as not experience what disobeying means? Or does the Mother allow the child to touch and stove and get 2nd degree burns? Can you introduce rules in if the creature cannot understand you? True love would trust and not need to experience the affects of disobeying.
Dave might say the Lord wants to test Adam's obedience. So we introduce death penalty rule that the creature does not understand, and create a creature to beguile them into sin? Is that fair?
I would say it is not fair, and not what Scripture teaches "The shedim sinned from the beginning, refers to when the shedim on it's own, some time long ago, sinned just like Adam chose to sin" Except Adam did not sin on his own, nor did Eve sin on her own, they had an agency to help them choose sinning.". In fact the shedim speaking to Eve , negating God's words proves the shedim is an agency for sinning. The sinning of shedim cannot refer to Gen 6 either. Since the death of creatures experiencing "second death" is a rule spoken by God to Adam, this tells us the sin from breaking that rule has to have already been broken, otherwise why have a rule with a death penalty in the first place?
God is a God of love, not death and dying. So this shows me the shedim sinned from the beginning long before humans even existed. ----------------- I am going to ignore the long list of insults you posted to me, you seem not able to defend yourself very well, you mock instead. Scripture says the shedim sinned from the beginning. You cannot explain this at all. You don't have any creatures apart from humans with free will to choose to sin. SO how on earth can you ignore such a verse as 1 John 3:8 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. This term "beginning" has to refer to "sinning" before humans existed. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, The messengers left their beginnings designed by GOD How is this possible? Obviously these messengers have free will. Again Dave has to disagree, as you do not consider angels with free will. Even the royal law has references to false elohiym powers.... Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. So did GOD write these laws after humans began sinning? Makes no sense Dave. No, the plain logic is some creature is functioning as a false elohiym power long ago, as a result of sinning. And their sinning is so bad they are enslaved under everlasting chains of darkness. Lost their conscience to freely return to God, trapped in a pride without feelings of remorse, so evil is their chaos that they are chained by their own depravity. Such beings have to already exist, otherwise why write a LAW telling humans not to follow false powers. To post doubt Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. I could help Dave, and say the royal law was only written during Israel stay in Egypt. So no laws existed before this time? Or is the word Egypt a reference to something else, the first black cloud of sin? chaos? Where did chaos come from? Obviously sin. You can ponder confusion all day long and twist the Scriptures at will. Scripture says the shedim sinned from the beginning. How can Dave answer this when you have no creatures apart from humans who can sin? Something tells me your theology is wrong. Try rethinking along Scripture, including the NT torah, something traditional Jews avoid. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 24, 2022 19:03:11 GMT -5
56 verses use arche OH Goody a Robert word studyMt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, From first time humans male and female were created. YEP – Biological man was created on Day 6 - NOT Day 1
Mt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. From first time YEP – from the first timeMt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Not enough context. Still means from the first timeMt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. From first time humans experienced tribulation until experiencing tribulations even now. YEP – Gen 3:13-19 – The Great Contest – set in motion by GodMr 1:1 ¶ The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; We can assume "beginning" to imply Jesus taught a gospel to Adam and Eve, after they sinned, thus required Jesus as their Saviour to save them. OK – do not disagree - Lu 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; Beginning, from the first time eye witnesses saw things of Jesus. YEP – from the first timeThis verse speaks of AD 30 to AD 33 as the Beginning of witnessing to Jesus costly salvation process for humans, his death on the Cross, his life of holiness, etc. YEP – and Jude and 2 Peter are speaking of the bane Elohim of Gen 6Lu 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates "archie", and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: YEP – sometimes a ruler is just a ruler – just a man Just as Peter could be the satan to Jesus- both ruler and satan are functionsLu 20:20 ¶ And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power "archie" and authority of the governor. YEP – sometimes a ruler is just a ruler – just a manJoh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Beginning, implying Jesus was with the Father from eternity NOPE – Christ = God = only one word – God – Christ – Holy SpiritJoh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. beginning, the first time Jesus did miracles on earth as a God-Man YEP – from the first timeJoh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Beginning, God knows all things in a human before they do anything good or bad ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – ALL GOD’S PLAN – ALL GOD’S WILLJoh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. {of his own: or, from his own will or disposition} the devil – lusts = (yester ra) He was a murderer from the beginning = ENTROPY there is no truth in him – IGNORANCE = DARKNESS – Gen 1:2
Jesus declares the sinning shedim to be a father (ab) of lies, sinning etc. "Ab" means a provider to falsehood.. Sorry Robert – man’s own (yeater ra) – sin is always man’s choiceThus the sinning shedim are providers of sin, agents of sinning SORRY Robert – SIN entered the world through Eve – Rom 5:12---------------------- Ac 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners "archie", and let down to the earth: Ac 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners "archie"; and it came even to me: Archie means – First in order, rank, or place The corner of a building is the first of the wall The corner of the blanket / sheet - the first of the blanket / sheet (edge)--------------- Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Beginning, when this occurs first in time. YEP – from the first timeRo 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities "archie", nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, not a reference to when things first happened in time, perhaps to the first ? NOPE – just a reference to the serpent race – The Beast – we call devils and satanas1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule "archie" and all authority and power. YEP - just a reference to the serpent race – The Beast – we call devils and satanasEph 1:21 Far above all principality "archie" , and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: YEP - just a reference to the serpent race – The Beast – we call devils and satanasEph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities "archie" and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, YEP - just a reference to the serpent race – The Beast – we call devils and satanasEph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities "archie", against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. {flesh...: Gr. blood and flesh} {spiritual...: or, wicked spirits} {high: or, heavenly} YEP - just a reference to the serpent race – The Beast – we call devils and satanasCol 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities "archie", or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: YEP - just a reference to the serpent race – The Beast – we call devils and satanasCol 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. {in...: or, among all} ??Jesus is the beginning of the NT assembly? OK – still means from the first timeCol 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality "archie" and power: YEP – Christ has authority over everything everywhere – rules – magistrates – or even archon / devilsCol 2:15 And having spoiled principalities "archie" and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. {in it: or, in himself} Yep - just a reference to the serpent race – The Beast – we call devils and satanas2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning "archie" chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: YEP - from the first time - predestinationTit 3:1 ¶ Put them in mind to be subject to principalities "archie" and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, YEP – sometimes a ruler is just a ruler – just a manHeb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: This Greek word "arche" has to be the same as Hebrew word "re'shiyth" So we should look as the meanings of re'shiyth as well. Used 51 times – never means the corner – never means the Beast Only 7 times translated as chief------------------ Ezekiel 28 tells us the cherub was sinless but after a while chose to sin, becoming a sinning cherub. The cherub are also termed messengers for God. The Beast was never perfect The Beast was never God best friend The Beast appeared in a plurality ready to devour
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first "archie" estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {first estate: or, principality} Some messengers did not live under the created beginnings God provided for them, but these messengers choose a different beginnings themselves. This happens when they sin. YEP – 200 of them in Gen 6his is paralleled to humans as Sodom, who also sin, YEP – a sexual SIN – it is called BEASTIALITYSo God ends their sinning existence as an example of what God will do to these sinning messengers. YEP – if you say what happened in Gen 1:2 was a sin – then all the devils and demons are locked away
-------------- SO when did SINNING first happen? Dave says Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: SO death entered only after Adam sinned? Not what Dave says, Gnostics says natural death happens along with living, a flawed creation? YEP – Dave says it – Christians say it – Jews say it – science says it – and the museums are filled with it Once the TREE OF LIFE was withheld – the ANTIDOTE for mortal death was removed and Adam and Eve grew old and diedDave might say the Lord wants to test Adam's obedience. So we introduce death penalty rule that the creature does not understand, and create a creature to beguile them into sin? Is that fair? It is fair – because Adam and Eve were in the full presence of God – and they c\hose to disobey anyway Deu 8:2 … in order to humble thee to try thee, to know that which is in thy heart, whether thou dost keep His commands or not. I would say it is not fair, and not what Scripture teaches God does NOT care if you think it fair"The shedim sinned from the beginning, refers to when the shedim on it's own, some time long ago, sinned just like Adam chose to sin" Except Adam did not sin on his own, nor did Eve sin on her own, they had an agency to help them choose sinning.". STOP BLAMING YOUR CHOICES ON ANOTHER The serpent did not lie – no one agrees with youGod is a God of love, not death EXPLAIN why your Feel Good God commanded multiple genocides Explain why your Feel Good God KILLED all the First Born of Egypt----------------- I am going to ignore the long list of insults you posted to me, you seem not able to defend yourself very well, you mock instead. Why do you consider question about scripture that you cannot answer as insults Have I misrepresented your teaching?Dave has to disagree, as you do not consider angels with free will. Judaism 101 – angels do not have Free Will – they are created to serve and praise
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2022 15:28:02 GMT -5
YEP – if you say what happened in Gen 1:2 was a sin – then all the devils and demons are locked away
So because the shedim continue to go about like a roaring lion, devouring and possessing human minds, leading humans to sin, tells me the shedim are NOT locked away.
So your understanding of the everlasting chains of darkness is wrong Dave. It's an idiom meaning that that the sinner is enslaved in their chains of sin.
Just as the Hebrew word "servant" in one context, means the "house of bondage"
And in Rev 20 the angel comes down with a chain, to bind the chief shedim, so he cannot be chained before hand? ie chained up twice??
So your physical removal of sinning creatures from spoiling God's creation is wrong.
What happen when there was war in heaven? Nothing was locked away, instead the sinning messengers were ejected to earth, which became void, formless and dark. The resultant condition from sinning, ie GOD leaving them.
Discuss my logic and my view, as it makes more sense. Do you have an opposing view even?
Instead you quote Jewish writings.... which are dead wrong.
D" Judaism 101 – angels do not have Free Will –
R" This is dead wrong. Ezekiel 28 says the cherub sinned.
Do you choose to support the Hebrew torah or not. Obviously, some Jews don't and write things against the Hebrew torah,
Even shedim must have free will to sin, as John says the shedim sinned from the beginning.
So you either support Johns words or you don't?
D" they are created to serve and praise
R What an absurd notion, creating a creature to function ? How is this love? Humans in heaven will praise and serve, because that is what love is, and we choose to. No different to angels. DUH
Why do you assume God can create functions in creatures?, thus removing their free will?
Why even Alex the parrot chooses to love, speak nice or speak rudely. Thus Alex had free will?
You even post this idea again
D" The Beast was never perfect The Beast was never God best friend
R" The term "beast" is not a "creature kind" used in this context. Sure the word refers to "animals", but its used as a poetry simile to represent another creature, but not the creature as a kind, but as a function.
Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
A beast is a functional description of a power that rules on the earth, either a human power, or a non human power.
It's not the "beast" itself, ie referring to the animal as a kind.
Now you say the "power that rules" was never kind or friendly to God.
That's strange, that implies GOD creates "wicked creatures from their beginning" implying GOD is the source of SIN.
You do not really believe this do you Dave?
Here is what the cherub that sinned was before the cherub sinned.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
SO GOD only ever always ever only creates sinless creature kinds, that choose to not sin.
SIN never comes from GOD, but from the creature choosing to sin, and thus develop it's own selfishness over time, ruler itself from SELF.
Scripture even describes the gradual development of the cherub sinning
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
So that is no such thing as a "beast power" created as unkind immediately that way. The "beast power" chooses to become unkind and unfriendly to God.
Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Scripture describes "Hell" beneath the earth, not in some "heaven dimension" as you claim.
Here is more poetry, the trees are symbols of humans living under the LORD of trees.
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
So this "beast power" that claims to be higher than the Most High, is where exactly? Below the earth, the lowest position one can go, at "Hell".
Not as you claim in some dimension heaven, but beneath the earth, as the torah says. Why is the beast power ejected to this place? Because it chooses to sin.
Poetry parallels
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
One thing I read is GOD says the man as a power sinning, has "opened" the "house of his prisoners"?
I get the impression that once you sin, you become a prisoner of sin, and the chains of sin bind you forever in your sins.
Does Scripture really imply this?
Pr 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.
Yes indeed.
Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
So humans are brought out from their houses of bondage. Does that mean the humans were locked away because of their sinning as Dave implies? Not at all.
D" Have I misrepresented your teaching?
R" You do not supply a logical defense for your own view, you attack mine instead. Rather than attack my view, start defending your view, using logic and Bible verses, begin by explaining how the shedim sins, can exist in your view.
You say angels cannot sin, have no free will. I completely prove this idea dead wrong, the Ezekiel 28 Hebrew torah says cherub did sin.
You say shedim cannot sin, is also dead wrong, as the NT says the shedim sin.
You say God created the Beast unfriendly immediately from it's creation, is also dead wrong.
The "beast power" became corrupt over time. War in heaven, implies time. Yet you consider this to mean a bustle of 6 seconds. Again you twist Scripture.
If GOD reasons with his creatures about sinning, how can a beast power be sinning immediately upon it's creation? Again you twist, saying GOD created the RA in it, designed it that way, is also dead wrong.
How do I know it's dead wrong?
Because John says
1Jo 3:8 The human that committeth sin is of the shedim; for the shedim sinneth from the beginning.
But Dave says the shedim cannot sin, like humans can, with free will.
Yet you say 200 shedim sinned and were locked away because of their sinning? Another strange idea? Locked away...awaiting to no longer live? Why the delay of judgement than? Why judge them at all? Really Dave consider your weird views?
Why when a human sins we are not locked away, from other humans. Sometimes I wish it was like this for really bad sins, Ivan Malat for instance. Yes they are holden in chains of their sins, in a house of bondage, in a prison of darkness with chains of slavery to sin, yes. But not locked away from others. Why even in prison humans came to talk to Malat about his sinning
Why did GOD restrict the shedim that were sinning from His kingdom? Because the sinning was spoiling His world, turning it into darkness. Not that sin does this itself, but GOD reacts to the sinning, by moving away from it, creating darkness.
SO the shedim sinning creatures were ejected to earth and remain there. Rev 12.
Your view is wrong Dave, the Jews who write about their views are also wrong. Jews never consider a shedim sinning at all. You need to abandon the inventions and commentaries of men, and follow the true Hebrew torah, the writings God asked Hebrew people to write, not the same message as from the Hellenized Jew.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2022 2:10:35 GMT -5
YEP – if you say what happened in Gen 1:2 was a sin – then all the devils and demons are locked away
So because the shedim continue to go about like a roaring lion, devouring and possessing human minds, leading humans to sin, tells me the shedim are HOT locked away.
Correct – only 200 + the Gigori are locked away in chains in a prision
So your understanding of the everlasting chains of darkness us wrong Dave. It's an idiom meaning that that the sinner is enslaved in their chains of sin.
ANOTHER SECOND GREAT AWAKENING REVELATION The Jehovah’s Witness also teach there is no hell – here on earth is all there is – just world
Sorry Robert – Judaism teaches a place of torment of Proportional Punishment
The Second Book of Enoch Of the assumption of Enoch to the third heaven.
VIII.1 AND those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; Blah blah blah → X.1 Here they showed Enoch the terrible place and various tortures.
AND those two men led me upon to the Northern side, and showed me there a very terrible place, and there were all manner of tortures in that place: cruel darkness and unillumined gloom, and there is no light there, but murky fire constantly flameth aloft, and there is a fiery river coming forth, and that whole place is everywhere fire, and everywhere there is frost and ice, thirst and shivering, while the bonds are very cruel, and the angels fearful and merciless, bearing angry weapons, merciless torture, and I said:
2 'Woe, woe, how very terrible is this place.'
3 And those men said to me: This place, O Enoch, is prepared for those who dishonour God, who on earth practise sin against nature, which is child-corruption after the sodomitic fashion, magic-making, enchantments and devilish witchcrafts, and who boast of their wicked deeds, stealing, lies, calumnies, envy, rancour, fornication, murder, and who, accursed, steal the souls of men, who, seeing the poor take away their goods and themselves wax rich, injuring them for other men's goods; who being able to satisfy the empty, made the hungering to die; being able to clothe, stripped the naked; and who knew not their creator, and bowed down to soulless (sc. lifeless) Gods, who cannot see nor hear, vain gods, who also built hewn images and bow down to unclean handiwork, for all these is prepared this place amongst these, for eternal inheritance.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The Second Book of Enoch Of the taking of Enoch on to the fifth heaven.
XVIII.1 THE men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori, of human appearance, and their size was greater than that of great giants and their faces withered, and the silence of their mouths perpetual, and there was no service on the fifth heaven, and I said to the men who were with me:
2 Wherefore are these very withered and their faces melancholy, and their mouths silent, and wherefore is there no service on this heaven?
3 And they said to me: These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon 1 and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity.
4 And therefore God judged them with great judgement, and they weep for their brethren and they will be punished on the Lord's great day.
5 And I said to the Grigori: 'I saw your brethren and their works, and their great torments, and I prayed for them, but the Lord has condemned them to be under earth till heaven and earth shall end for ever.'
Jud 1:6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,
And a few verses later
Jud 1:14 And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam—Enoch—saying, 'Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads, Jud 1:15 to do judgment against all, and to convict all their impious ones, concerning all their works of impiety that they did impiously, and concerning all the stiff things that speak against Him did impious sinners.'
Why do you deny Jude? Why are you afraid to study the Prophesy of Enoch?
And in Rev 20 the angel comes down with a chain, to bind the chief shedim, so he cannot be chained before hand? ie chained up twice?? INCORRECT – none of the trinity of the Beast mentioned in Rev 20 are the bane elohiym of Gen 6 or their Nephilim – that group is locked away
What happen when there was war in heaven? Nothing was locked away, Correct – either Jude is wrong – or he is speaking of the bane elohiym of Gen 6 All that happened was the Beast and his archon were ejected into physical creation
Instead you quote Jewish writings.... which are dead wrong. D" Judaism 101 – angels do not have Free Will – R" This is dead wrong. Ezekiel 28 says the cherub sinned. Sorry Robert – Ezk 28 says the King of Tyre got too big for his britches - arogance
Do you choose to support the Hebrew torah or not. ABSOLUTELY
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
YES – I ADMIT IT – I follow Jewish Theology and demonology – BECAUSE nothing changed Why do you follow post Gospel Roman Catholic satan?
Even shedim must have free will to sin, as John says the shedim sinned from the beginning. The Beast sinned against entirety - sinned against creation – sinned against nature = ENTROPY The bane elohiym sinned against God because they reproduced out of their kind
D" they are created to serve and praise R What an absurd notion, creating a creature to function ? How is this love? Ants do what they do because that is their role within nature Frogs do what they do because that is their role within nature Bacteria do what they do because that is their role within nature R What an absurd notion, creating a creature to function ? How is this love?
Why do you hate nature and call it flawed – does Rom 1:19 + Psa 1+:2 point to God’s Intelligent Design – YES OR NO
Why do you assume God can create functions in creatures?, thus removing their free will? Animals have the free will to do what they do – a cow can crash down your fence or walk across the road – his choice A rat can eat your corn – or your rice – their choice Mice can invade your walls – or your attic – or your garage – all their choice Man can chose to go to college or enlist in the Army – or be a plumber – all choice
Has nothing to do with the FREE WILL to choose God
A beast is a functional description of a power that rules on the earth, either a human power, or a non human power. It's not the "beast" itself, ie referring to the animal as a kind.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Sorry Robert – Beast – a biological thing – that has offspring ------------------
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
So this "beast power" that claims to be higher than the Most High, is where exactly? Below the earth, the lowest position one can go, at "Hell".
SORRY ROBERT _ quote all the verse Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
D" Have I misrepresented your teaching? R" You do not supply a logical defense for your own view, you attack mine instead. If I do NOT misrepresent your Ellen White teaching – why do you say I MOCK YOU WHY IS IT MOCKING TO EXPOSE ELLEN WHITE? You say angels cannot sin, have no free will. I completely prove this idea dead wrong, the Ezekiel 28 Hebrew torah says cherub did sin. YES – you have a two word doctrine supported by the Roman catholic Church Precept upon precept, line upon line – you have nothing else
You say shedim cannot sin, is also dead wrong, as the NT says the shedim sin. Why does Ellen White SADA-ism use LIES and misrepresentations to make their point No wonder you love Don Patton – you try to use his debate style
You say God created the Beast unfriendly immediately from it's creation, is also dead wrong. Why does Ellen White SADA-ism use LIES and misrepresentations to make their point No wonder you love Don Patton – you try to use his debate style
The "beast power" became corrupt over time. War in heaven, implies time. During creation – the Beast appeared – a by-product of / inherent to physicality = ENTROPY Rev 12:1-3 = Gen 1:1-2 - and God said it was tov Gen 1:31
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2022 4:53:18 GMT -5
Do you choose to support the Hebrew torah or not. ABSOLUTELYMat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. YES – I ADMIT IT – I follow Jewish Theology and demonology – BECAUSE nothing changed – EXCEPT the introduction of the Messiah and the Age of the GentileWhy do you follow THE FALSE PROPHET ELLEN WHITE – who plagiarized a post Gospel Roman Catholic satan doctrine + The Second Great Awakening revelation that there is no hell and no Proportional Punishment and teach earth is hell just like the JW + a pagan Zoroastrian dual god concept – one good vrs one bad – and promote the Islamic advent math of the coming of the Madhi? Your view is wrong Dave, the Jews who write about their views are also wrong.Correct – the only way your religious teaching is valid is if Judaism is wrong BECAUSE – you teach a different religion with a completely different theology and demonology born in the Second Great Awakening – appearing alongside the Jehovah’s Witness, Mormonism, and the Bahia Islam (google) The Epistle of Jude is the penultimate book of the New Testament. It is traditionally attributed to Jude, brother of James the Just, and thus brother of Jesus as well. Jude is a short epistle written in Koine Greek. Jude quotes EnochJud 1:14 And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam—Enoch—saying, 'Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads, Jud 1:15 to do judgment against all, and to convict all their impious ones, concerning all their works of impiety that they did impiously, and concerning all the stiff things that speak against Him did impious sinners.' Why do you deny Jude? Why are you afraid to study the Prophesy of Enoch?Robert – you must deny most of the ahl/OT because your Feel Good god – is NOT allowed to cause hurt Question – Does Ellen White support the Second Coming of God or NOT?How can the FEEL GOOD SDA god of LOVE – also be the LION OF JUDAH? “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he ‘has put everything under his feet’” (1 Corinthians 15:24-26). Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Your view is wrong Dave, the Jews who write about their views are also wrong.Correct – the only way your religious teaching is valid is if Judaism is wrongAND you argue - The Jews who authored the agl/NT who write about their views must also be wrong James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas – and now Jude Correct – the only way your religious teaching is valid is if Judaism is wrong and the agl/NT is error Your view is wrong Dave, the Jews who write about their views are also wrong. Jews never consider a shedim sinning at all. Let’s see if you are factual – or just making up facts about JudaismSearch = Sinning shedim = Jewish demonology = Beelzebub and the shedimSearch – Sinning Angels = 2 articles about the idea belonging to the New Testament + Articles about Azazel – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6
If you don't understand what happened in Gen 6 Then you will not understand much of the ahl/OT - and evidently the agl/NT as well
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