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Post by Dave on Nov 2, 2022 21:09:40 GMT -5
D"The King of Tyre is like a cherub – the cherub is a reference to the King of Tyre No one ever saw these similes, parallels, metaphors any differently – UNTIL ROME NOW YOU SAY - the King of Tyre is like a cherub – and your cherub comes alive as a new person with its own separate theology R" I see, you are seeing the simile only as King Tyre functioning as a cherub. You failed to see what each speech of GOD is and how it changes. Give us another example where the simile come s alive with a story all of its ownD"Judaism weights scripture by source – #1 if God said it - #2 If God said it through Moses - #3 if God said it through a Major Prophet - #4 – if God said it through a Minor Prophet - #5 additional to the Tanak the Jews also have the ‘Wisdom of their Fathers’ – many books / scrolls are mentioned within scripture as valid sources of information – Temple Library was a Library - #Last they even have their own legends R" That's some weight on the torah, if only it was true, when I look at Jewish studies, most of their studies jump right into human opinions, precepts and traditions of men, not a thorough study of the torah first. Correct – you need Judaism to be in error so your Ellen White doctrine works If you want to study scripture with the Jews – you need to learn the Torah first(google) In traditional Jewish education, students by the age 6 would attend synagogue schools. By around 10 years of age, they would have learned and memorized the first 5 books of the Bible, called the Torah (yes, even Leviticus!). Jewish rabbis would instruct students with an assortment of memorization methods. As adults – Rabbis assume you know your Torah – they are discussing its depthSo I ask again, why do you term the shedim as false gods, Dave? BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOD – they are just created beingsWhy do your term the shedim as false gods? Because this term implies the shedim sin like humans sin, NO IT DOES NOT – grow up be serious or be gone Worshiping a statue made of rock does not grant that stature free will to sin – REDICULAS ‘other gods’ are given their power by manD"your God is weak – not in control – must respond and react to your powerful angel satan R" SO when your daughter disobeys you, you do not react? God IS NOT A MAN - with man’s frailties - REDICULASD"you teach you can block God with shadows R" Twist, I didn't say that, God is like light, so you can block some of the powers coming from God, ABSOLUTE NONSENSE – you teach a weak godD"your satan god acted against God’s Will – outside of God’s Will – R" If you have free will to SIN, than how is sinning outside of God's will, when GOD created you to choose and make decisions? So you now agree – that God created your satan on purpose for a purposeD"all of God’s creation is corrupted by your satan god R" Last time I checked the Bible, GOD cursed His creation because of Adam's sin, not the Opposer who sinned first. So you admit it – Rom 1:19 + Psa19:2 are proof that your satan is god-------------------- D"No man can comprehend – understand – see the Father – beyond our understanding R" NOT Your arrogance contradicts scriptureIsa 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways.” It is a declaration of Adonai. Isa 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. ---------------------------- OK - D"Let’s study her Hebrew translations of the serpent lying in Eden Let’s study her Hebrew translation of Ezk 28 R" She doesn't do that, she never knew Hebrew either. She just wrote what God told her to write.She never knew Hebrew but you use her as a Hebrew translator No wonder you think less of Jeff Brenner – he has made Hebrew his life workSo you do offer her as additional scripture equal with Paul – as the SDA doJust as Joseph Smith wrote another New TestamentHere is what Rabbi Davis wrote about this theme D" When have you studied the Kabbalah with me? I offered King Solomon to you – your denial drowned out any discussion You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forumR" Are you for real? Kabbalah is not torah, are you saying the Messanic people also still study the Kabbalah along with their torah? ANd king Solomon about shedim is weird, not in harmony with torah. Why should I continue to respond to your post – when you will not respond to mine?----------------- PR" I found a Messanic Website, and find their teachings very different to Dave and Robert. D" NOPE – very much Dave D"YES - Rabbi Davis supports (Reb 12:9 Beast – the serpent race – we call Devil called HaSatan, and founded (fathered)a race of demons (archon) R" Strange, I thought your HaSatan was a good angel doing a bad job as a prosecutor of human sinnings, now you have a different view? I seek your comments on the Rabbi Davis article on fallen angels. You know the answer – you just post this to be an ass – as a good SDA is taught to beHebrew satan – is the prosecutor Jewish satan (devil) has always been beelzebul and the shedim One is the angel of the Lord in service to the Lord One is the Beast of revelation You cannot tell the difference – because you are well studied and play word games
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Post by Dave on Nov 3, 2022 6:14:31 GMT -5
OK - D"Let’s study her Hebrew translations of the serpent lying in Eden Let’s study her Hebrew translation of Ezk 28 R" She doesn't do that, she never knew Hebrew either. She just wrote what God told her to write.She never knew Hebrew but you use her as a Hebrew translator No wonder you think less of Jeff Brenner – he has made Hebrew his life workSo you do offer her as additional scripture equal with Paul – as the SDA doJust as Joseph Smith wrote another New TestamentHere is what Rabbi Davis wrote about this theme D" When have you studied the Kabbalah with me? I offered King Solomon to you – your denial drowned out any discussion You deliberately spoil the discussion – be serious – if that is possible or leave this forumR" Are you for real? Kabbalah is not torah, are you saying the Messanic people also still study the Kabbalah along with their torah? ANd king Solomon about shedim is weird, not in harmony with torah. Why should I continue to respond to your post – when you will not respond to mine?I said this incorrectly The only CONTEXT that matters is the theology of Jesus Christ and His disciples – the original Messianic Jews Why are you unwilling to study the source? Instead you only want to study what others believe in 2022 – and then say – it isn’t even your belief So productive You refuse to study the source I have posted several doctrines here by X-SDA pastors – you refuse to defend your SDA I have posted SDA preachers here defending the SDA – you refuse to validate your own religion
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2022 15:45:16 GMT -5
D"Give us another example where the simile come s alive with a story all of its own R" The simile of trees is an interesting Bible story that comes alive on its own.
Jg 9:8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. 9 But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? 10 And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. 11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? 12 Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. 13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? 14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. 15 And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
Also
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Also
Ps 96:12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice 13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Also
Ho 14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon. 7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon. 8 ¶ Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found. 9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
One of my favorite sermons is to preach about trees, how they grow, and how others come to nest in their branches, and dwell under their shadows.
D"If you want to study scripture with the Jews – you need to learn the Torah first (google) In traditional Jewish education, students by the age 6 would attend synagogue schools. By around 10 years of age, they would have learned and memorized the first 5 books of the Bible, called the Torah (yes, even Leviticus!). Jewish rabbis would instruct students with an assortment of memorization methods. As adults – Rabbis assume you know your Torah – they are discussing its depth R" That's funny, how come they don't quote the torah all the time?
We had a SDA Pastor I knew well who memorized the entire NT in Greek, and talking to him was difficult because He quoted the NT torah all the time. His name Dr Eric Livingstone. I disagreed with much of his details, yet we were friends. He was a lecturer at the SDA college in Australia. I knew him as a preacher/lecture in Sonoma College, PNG. I listened to him preach, he quoted the Scriptures all the time, more than 3 dozen times to get a point across. So idea that knowing the torah from memory but failing to quote it when teaching others, who do not know the torah as well is bogus.
Instead the Jews make much out of two verses, inventing yester ra and yester tov, while the Hebrew word "Aven" is left undiscovered by the Jews? Why is that? Are there any Jewish comments on the word "Aven"?
D"NO IT DOES NOT – grow up be serious or be gone Worshiping a statue made of rock does not grant that stature free will to sin – REDICULAS ‘other gods’ are given their power by man R" Since when are shedim statutes carved using wood and stone, commanding humans to worshsip them? Are you dull ?
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. I don't see a statute or a wood or a stone asking this of Jesus, it was a shedim, in living shape that asked this question of the Son of God, that Jesus called HaSatan. DUH, come on Dave and start answering my question.
D"Worshiping a statue made of rock does not grant that stature free will to sin
R" Humans carve the image, than worship the shedim whom the image represents. DUH The shedim choose to remain unshaped so the mystery of their worship intrigues the human, but they do have a shape, they are sinning cherubims.
Third time I ask of you, you refuse to answer:-
Why did you called the shedim a false god than, if you didn't mean to use the term than?
Because that implies the shedim choose to sin like humans choose to sin. D"God IS NOT A MAN R" OK so when a creature sins, God does nothing about the sinner or the sinning than? Come on Dave, for starters the sinning would not even exist, if God didn't react to the free will request to make sin exist. How can sin exist if God does nothing when the free will decides to sin?
Your theory that entropy can naturally exist is weird, because God , a perfect unflawed God would not allow such imperfection, as you claim. Your Gnostic notions are totally weird.
PD"you teach you can block God with shadows PR" Twist, I didn't say that, God is like light, so you can block some of the powers coming from God, D" ABSOLUTE NONSENSE – you teach a weak god R" SO now you deny basic physical laws.... -------------------------
D"Hebrew satan – is the prosecutor Jewish satan (devil) has always been beelzebul and the shedim One is the angel of the Lord in service to the Lord One is the Beast of revelation You cannot tell the difference – because you are well studied and play word games I will quote Rabbi Davis
"It is profitable for us to know something of Tyre of which this spiritual entity was its spiritual king and underlying power. Israel not heeding YHVH’s warning to be set apart and not to have interaction with unbelieving nations interacted politically and commercially with Tyre, and from the preceding verses we know that the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan. "
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan),
Here, the “mystery of iniquity” is revealed. It is that lawless spirit that has been present since HaSatan set Himself against the Laws of Heaven.
You do not have to be a bible scholar to understand the theme of these scriptures. HaSatan is actively pursuing a program of unrighteousness, punctuated by deception and the greatest of these deceptions is that G-d’s righteousness as proclaimed in His Living and Written Torah is invalid for ‘believers” today. The Bible tells us that HaSatan is the author of lies and that Torah is the truth
The word translated “hell” here is “Tartarus” meaning the deepest pit of gloom, but these angels are scheduled to be released in the time of Noach to once again bring darkness and despair upon mankind.
In Revelation 9:11 we learn that the leader of this group of fallen angels is Apollyon.
Apollyon is interpreted as the “destroying angel.”
Be prepared, for YHVH will unleash these bound demons to work their evil among us. We have been warned and we have been given a time mark to observe for Yahshua says it will be in a time like the time of Noach.
Rabbi Tamah Davis-Hart
R" So Dave, the Jewish Rabbi writes the HaSatan is the same as the satanas and satan. So you are wrong.
The HaSatan was ruling over King Tyre. The Ha Satan was against the Most HIgh.
So I now post and proof Messanic Jews disagree with your views of archons. Rabbi Davis calls them sinning angels, and the chief sinning angel is the HaSatan.
D"Why should I continue to respond to your post – when you will not respond to mine? R" So this is you latest ploy to avoid answering questions you cannot answer? Keep changing the topic so you avoid your own questions you cannot answer?
D"The only CONTEXT that matters is the theology of Jesus Christ and His disciples – the original Messianic Jews R" So are you saying Rabbi Davis has it wrong? Rabbi Davis is almost the same as the SDA on the HaSatan, nearly everything is in agreement. Dave's view is totally different to the view of Rabbi Davis. A whole congregation of Messanic Jews would disagree with you Dave on your HaSatan views, and your Gnostic views of the origin of sin. You cannot answer why are the shedim sinning like humans do, in 1 JOhn 3:8, but Rabbi Davis the Messianic Jew can and does, with a view the same as my view.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 4, 2022 5:26:52 GMT -5
D"Give us another example where the simile come s alive with a story all of its own R" The simile of trees is an interesting Bible story that comes alive on its own.
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Sorry Robert “he” = Psa 1:… the one who has not walked in the advice of the wicked, nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the seat of scoffers. The simile is always about the subject
Also Jg 9:8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. 9 But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? 10 And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. 11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? 12 Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. 13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? 14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. 15 And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
Sorry Robert – this is NOT a story about Olive Oil, a Fig Tree, Trees, or bramble Mathew Henry = His parable is very ingenious - that when the trees were disposed to choose a king the government was offered to those valuable trees the olive, the fig-tree, and the vine, but they refused it,
Trees = the wicked confederacy of Abimelech and the men of Shechem. Olive oil = God’s Blessings Fig Tree = Israel Bramble = the wicked The simile is always about the subject
Also Ps 96:12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice 13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. 1- You deny he second coming as prophesied 2- You deny that your Feel Good God can be the Lion of Judah 3- You refuse to even read the Prophesy of Enoch Do you really teach the Second Coming is to save ‘the field’ and ‘trees’?
Also Hos 14:5 (TLV)“I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely, for My anger will turn away from him. Ho 14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon. 7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon. 8 ¶ Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found. 9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
One of my favorite sermons is to preach about trees, how they grow, and how others come to nest in their branches, and dwell under their shadows.
Sorry Robert His branches shall spread = God his beauty shall be as the olive tree = Israel his shadow = God’s they shall revive as the corn, = Those that dwell under his shadow and grow as the vine: = Those that dwell under his shadow The simile is always about the subject
Instead the Jews make much out of two verses, inventing yester ra and yester tov, while the Hebrew word "Aven" is left undiscovered by the Jews? Why is that? Are there any Jewish comments on the word "Aven"? Why do you consider the commandment – to go forth be fruitful and multiply = EVIL Why do you consider the commandment - to go forth be fruitful and multiply – to subdue, concour, and have dominion = EVIL
You want to teach that God commanded all the beast and all men to go forth and be EVIL RIDICULOUS NONSENSE ---------------------
D"NO IT DOES NOT – grow up be serious or be gone Worshiping a statue made of rock does not grant that stature free will to sin – REDICULAS ‘other gods’ are given their power by man R" Since when are shedim statutes carved using wood and stone, commanding humans to worshsip them? Are you dull ? Repeat = ‘other gods’ are given their power by man Prove to me that the golden calf of Exo 32 – has Free Will Prove to me that the golden calf of Exo 32 – forced man to worship it Prove to me that the golden calf of Exo 32 – was NOT an ‘other god’
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. I don't see a statute or a wood or a stone asking this of Jesus, it was a shedim, Correct – the simile does not come alive with a story all of its own - the simile was always about the subject
Ezk 28 the King of Tyre is like a cherub - but you say the cherub comes alive with its own theology Absoltely contrary to the rest of scripture. Absolute missapplication of the simile
PD"you teach you can block God with shadows PR" Twist, I didn't say that, God is like light, so you can block some of the powers coming from God, D" ABSOLUTE NONSENSE – you teach a weak god R" SO now you deny basic physical laws.... ABSOLUTE NONSENSE – God is NOT a man with human frailties - you teach a weak god God is not goverend by creation - God makes the Laws - it's God's creation - God is sovergien -------------------------
D"Hebrew satan – is the prosecutor Jewish satan (devil) has always been beelzebul and the shedim One is the angel of the Lord in service to the Lord One is the Beast of revelation You cannot tell the difference – because you are well studied and play word games I will quote Rabbi Davis
"It is profitable for us to know something of Tyre of which this spiritual entity was its spiritual king and underlying power. Israel not heeding YHVH’s warning to be set apart and not to have interaction with unbelieving nations interacted politically and commercially with Tyre, and from the preceding verses we know that the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan. "
YES – of Course – GREED – SELFISHINESS – ARROGANCE – SELF IMPORTANCE = (yester ra) This is always the tool of the satan / BEAST – of the accuser – of the oppose – of the shedim
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan),
YES – of Course – GREED – SELFISHINESS – ARROGANCE – SELF IMPORTANCE = (yester ra) This is always the tool of the satan / BEAST – of the accuser – of the oppose – of the shedim
You do not have to be a bible scholar to understand the theme of these scriptures. HaSatan is actively pursuing a program of unrighteousness, punctuated by deception and the greatest of these deceptions
YES – of Course – GREED – SELFISHINESS – ARROGANCE – SELF IMPORTANCE = (yester ra) This is always the tool of the satan / BEAST – of the accuser – of the oppose – of the shedim
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world.
The Bible tells us that HaSatan is the author of lies and that Torah is the truth The Bible tells us that the devil = The Beast of Revelation – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas
The word translated “hell” here is “Tartarus” meaning the deepest pit of gloom, but these angels are scheduled to be released in the time of Noach to once again bring darkness and despair upon mankind. YEP – the release of the Gigori You deny this when I say it – now you offer it as fact? You admitted earlier that you had no idea what Tartarus is – and didn’t care to discuss it BECAUSE – there is NO after life – only the grave
Rabbi Tamah Davis-Hart R" So Dave, the Jewish Rabbi writes the HaSatan is the same as the satanas and satan. YES - Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. So you are wrong. – I have always taught this
The HaSatan was ruling over King Tyre. YES Robert – the King of Tyre was sucked in by (yester ra)- arrogance – self-importance - SELF
So I now post and proof Messanic Jews disagree with your views of archons. Rabbi Davis calls them sinning angels, and the chief sinning angel is the HaSatan. YES – Rabbi Davis just validated that the ‘sinning angels’ are locked away in Tartarus To be release later in Rev 9 How is this different that the Jewish Enoch version or mine?
D"Why should I continue to respond to your post – when you will not respond to mine? R" So this is you latest ploy to avoid answering questions you cannot answer? Keep changing the topic so you avoid your own questions you cannot answer? WHAT – I have answer every one of your question – consistently and completely – you just do not like the answers Your turn – where are your answers to my question? You have many opportunities to prove that your Ellen White is a prophet equal with Paul as the SDA teach – why won’t you stick up for her or your chosen religion?
If Jesus never begins his Sanctuary Judgment until 1844 – how did Moses and Elijah - be judged and raised in 30AD? – details
Who is the Creator – ahl/OT God – or agl/NT Christ Why do you teach that your satan KILLED god on the cross - (100% satanic) Why do you say – Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 is proof that your satan god is the creator - (100% satanic) Why do you teach 1 Peter 3:19 is error Why do you teach against Act 1, 16, 19 and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit Why do are you anti-Semetic - Jesus and all His disciples were Jewish? - (100% satanic) Why do you teach that - James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas are Heritics - (100% satanic) But - Roman St Iraenus is the father of your doctrine used by Ellen White If Ellen White is inspired by God - why does she controdict scripture? Why are you unwilling to address her errors? Instead - you claim scripture is error and must bend to her view - (100% satanic) - the definition of a CULT
D"The only CONTEXT that matters is the theology of Jesus Christ and His disciples – the original Messianic Jews R" So are you saying Rabbi Davis has it wrong? Let me say this again – I will write very slowly so you can grasp my words The only CONTEXT that matters is the theology of Jesus Christ and His disciples – the original Messianic Jews
I am sure I can find some writing by a recient 'Church of Christ' pastor that disagrees with Ellen White and you I am sure I can find Mormon writings that disagree with you and Ellen White What is the point? I am willing to discuss Ellen White line by line - you refuse to even look at the Hebrew source So serious - so Christian - so academically honest - just more Don Patton style garbage
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2022 15:48:56 GMT -5
Greetings Happy Sabbath I will limit my comments for you
Comments on the trees as a simile of humans in Hosea 14: 5
Ho 14:5 GOD will be as the dew unto Israel: ISRAEL shall grow as the lily, and cast forth ISRAEL's roots as Lebanon. 6 ISRAEL's branches shall spread, and ISRAEL's beauty shall be as the olive tree, and ISRAEL's smell as Lebanon.
Dave" Sorry Robert His branches shall spread = God his beauty shall be as the olive tree = Israel R" Dave thinks the poem reads
"6 GOD's branches shall spread, and ISRAEL's beauty shall be as the olive tree, Not correct Dave, wrong application of the pronouns,
Comments by Rabbi Rashi :Its branches shall go forth: Sons and daughters shall increase. and it shall be: Their beauty shall be like the beauty of the menorah of the Temple, and their fragrance like the fragrance of the incense. like the Lebanon: Like the Temple.
Rabbi Rashi says the simile of the branches are references to humans, sons and daughters.
Correct.
D" his shadow = God’s they shall revive as the corn, = Those that dwell under his shadow and grow as the vine: = Those that dwell under his shadow The simile is always about the subject R" A simile is supposed to remain a parallel to it's other subject? So what are you saying?
Again brevity Dave strikes again, don't you care to write discussions, can't you defend your view, and let other readers understand you?
Funny how you allow humans to dwell under God's shadow, but you oppose the light and shadow idea when I suggest it, flip flop Dave strikes again. -----------------------
RP" Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. I don't see a statute or a wood or a stone asking this of Jesus, it was a shedim, D" Correct – the simile does not come alive with a story all of its own - the simile was always about the subject R" What does correct mean? Your last post you oppose me, now you say correct?
The shedim asked Jesus to worship the shedim, but Jesus refused. This proves to me the shedim is sinning because only GOD is to be worshipped. Thus the shedim have free will to ask Jesus to worship the shedim, but Jesus refused to do so. D"the simile does not come alive with a story all of its own - the simile was always about the subject R" what does this mean? ANd what has it got to do about the fact the shedim sin like humans sin, and thus have free will to choose to sin? Do you agree with this idea now?
D"Ezk 28 the King of Tyre is like a cherub - but you say the cherub comes alive with its own theology Absoltely contrary to the rest of scripture. R" You just agreed the Ha Satan is a simile over King Tyre, the human. Before you denied the existence of this simile at all. You flip flop.
D"YES – of Course R" do you even know what you say "YES – of Course " to ?
Rabbi Davis said "the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan" You cannot agree to that Dave. To agree to this, you now say the simile of the cherub as HaSatan is correct. Before this you ignored and denied the existence of the simile. Now you say, yes - of course.
D"YES – of Course – R" You copy and paste, telling me you are not reading or listening or even caring anymore to see what you are doing. You cannot agree with Rabbi Davis. Rabbi Davis "the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan),"
Dave cannot agree to this, because making the dragon HaSatan goes against Dave's view, where Dave terms the dragon as satanas, a totally differnent being altogether. Dave also says the archons are satanas produced beings using humans and satanas. (NOT fallen angels).
But Daves careless copy and paste, flip flop says "YES – of Course –"
Dave further posts his view "The Bible tells us that the devil = The Beast of Revelation – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas" SO Dave does not see the devil as nothing more than Satanas, a Greek term for archons.
But Rabbi Davis does not say this. Rabbi Davis "the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan),"
The dragon is HaSatan according to Rabbi Davis, not an archon satanas. Dave uses the HaSatan as a term for a good angel doing a bad job as a prosecutor,
but Rabbi Davis does not use this term at all.
Rp"The HaSatan was ruling over King Tyre. D" YES Robert – the King of Tyre was sucked in by (yester ra)- arrogance – self-importance - SELF R" That is NOT what Rabbis Davis is saying Dave. Rabbi Davis said "the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan" Not sucked in by the human kings's own self importance - SELF
NO, Rabbi Davis says "the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan" This is also Robert's view, another higher king is ruling over the human King Tyre, this spiritual king is called HaSatan.
D"YES – Rabbi Davis just validated that the ‘sinning angels’ are locked away in Tartarus To be release later in Rev 9 R" You cannot agree slightly to Rabbi Davis as you write, because you do not have a notion of angels that have free will to choose to sin in the first place.
You do not follow Messanic Jewish ideas at all. Not even close.
You flip flop all the time when I post Jewish writings that challenge your view. -------------------
Job 4: 8 As I have seen, those who plow violence and sow mischief will reap it. חכַּֽאֲשֶׁ֣ר רָ֖אִיתִי חֹ֣רְשֵׁי אָ֑וֶן וְזֹֽרְעֵ֖י עָמָ֣ל יִקְצְרֻֽהוּ:
Comments by Rashi : As I have seen: that those who plow violence and prepare the iniquity in their thoughts, like a plower who prepares [the field] before sowing, afterwards they sow mischief with their deeds. And I saw that they will reap it-i.e., their evil that comes upon them, and I saw that.
Rabbi Rashi fails to make comments about "aven" the Hebrew word.
I throw this comment in just to show you not all Hebrew words are studied carefully by the Jews, Rabbi Rashi fails to pick up on aven. I looked up several verses using aven and Rabbi Rashi does not even notice the Hebrew word exists. ---------
D"I have answer every one of your question – consistently and completely – R" No you haven't. You copy and paste
and fail to read Jewish writings that oppose your view.
D"The only CONTEXT that matters is the theology of Jesus Christ and His disciples – the original Messianic Jews R" If that were true you woudl attend Rabbi Davis assemblies and support all the Messanic doctrines, which you don't. For example, I support feasts, but you don't. Almost all SDA do nto support feasts, for example. So we are different in our understanding of the NT torah, but you do not support Messanic Jews at all. You have invented a theology unique to Dave. A Gnostic blend that is invented by you, and nobody else follows. That's your choice. You need to be honest with me and say Rabbi Davis is writing my view, and NOT supporting your view. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 5, 2022 3:16:25 GMT -5
Ho 14:5 GOD will be as the dew unto Israel: ISRAEL shall grow as the lily, and cast forth ISRAEL's roots as Lebanon. 6 ISRAEL's branches shall spread, and ISRAEL's beauty shall be as the olive tree, and ISRAEL's smell as Lebanon.
D" GOD's branches shall spread, and ISRAEL's beauty shall be as the olive tree, Not correct Dave, wrong application of the pronouns, Rabbi Rashi says the simile of the branches are references to humans, sons and daughters. DUH ----------------------------
D" his shadow = God’s they shall revive as the corn, = Those that dwell under his shadow and grow as the vine: = Those that dwell under his shadow The simile is always about the subject R" A simile is supposed to remain a parallel to it's other subject? So what are you saying? Correct – a simile is always about the subject
Again brevity Dave strikes again, don't you care to write discussions, can't you defend your view, and let other readers understand you? Repeat – a simile is always about the subject – do these branches and olive oil come alive as new people with a theology all of their own
Funny how you allow humans to dwell under God's shadow, but you oppose the light and shadow idea when I suggest it, flip flop Dave strikes again. Light = truth Has nothing to do with photons that are a created thing of corporeal reqality ------------------
The shedim asked Jesus to worship the shedim, but Jesus refused. ½ Correct – the shedim tempted Jesus (because Jesus is biology/flesh) – and Christ (GOD / Spirit) answered
This proves to me the shedim is sinning because only GOD is to be worshipped. Thus the shedim have free will to ask Jesus to worship the shedim, but Jesus refused to do so. The Beast is the master / supreme authority / god of this world - it is his job to test the flesh (Jesus) But Christ said – you cannot test God (which is Christ) – proving that Jesus Christ = (Jesus /flesh)+(God incarnate) --------------------------
D"Ezk 28 the King of Tyre is like a cherub - but you say the cherub comes alive with its own theology Absoltely contrary to the rest of scripture. D"the simile does not come alive with a story all of its own - the simile was always about the subject R" what does this mean? Means – the simile is always about the King of Tyre – the king = cherub like / guarding and protecting his people You say – it stops being about a man- and you make a whole new religion around your cherub god of evil
R" You just agreed the Ha Satan is a simile over King Tyre, the human. Before you denied the existence of this simile at all. You flip flop. The BEAST of Revelation is always the cause of human arrogance and sin The Beast is always there saying – go ahead – do it – always tugging at your (yester ra) D"YES – of Course R" do you even know what you say "YES – of Course " to ? Rabbi Davis said "the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan" Repeat - The BEAST of Revelation is always the cause of human arrogance and sin The Beast is always there saying – go ahead – do it – always tugging at your (yester ra)
You cannot agree to that Dave. To agree to this, you now say the simile of the cherub as HaSatan is correct. Before this you ignored and denied the existence of the simile. NOPE – you are trying to play your word games – but you are obvious NOPE – The simile is always about the subject NOPE – The King of Tyre is always cherub like (protecting and guarding his people) Repeat - The BEAST of Revelation is always the cause of human arrogance and sin – our opposer The Beast is always there saying – go ahead – do it – always tugging at your (yester ra)
D"YES – of Course – R" You copy and paste, telling me you are not reading or listening or even caring anymore to see what you are doing. ALWAYS THE SAME ANSWER Repeat - The BEAST of Revelation is always the cause of human arrogance and sin – our opposer The Beast is always there saying – go ahead – do it – always tugging at your (yester ra)
The simile is always about the subject - The King of Tyre is always cherub like (protecting and guarding his people) you now say the simile of the cherub as HaSatan – the only one saying that is you
You cannot agree with Rabbi Davis. Rabbi Davis "the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan),"
Dave cannot agree to this, because making the dragon HaSatan goes against Dave's view, where Dave terms the dragon as satanas, a totally differnent being altogether. Dave also says the archons are satanas produced beings using humans and satanas. (NOT fallen angels). DUH – the Best of revelation is always man’s opposer/accuser – that never changes DUH – Dave calls them all archon – the Beast – the serpent – the devils – and the satanas - or demons – or other gods – or aliens from space – or evil spirits ---------------------------
Dave further posts his view "The Bible tells us that the devil = The Beast of Revelation – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas" SO Dave does not see the devil as nothing more than Satanas, a Greek term for archons. YEP – nothing more than a super human / invisible or visible / shapeshifting creature of this world YES – they can do parlor tricks – King Solomon tells us they can manipulate nature They are a distraction – the world is a distraction
But Rabbi Davis does not say this. Rabbi Davis "the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); YES – the Beast opposes all creation – it is his function
and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan)," The other messengers did not also recreate themselves against God’s Will – they are the offspring of the Beast
The dragon is HaSatan according to Rabbi Davis, not an archon satanas. Now you want to argue that Rev 12 Is also wrong – the Beast is NOT called G4567 Just how much scripture must you deny to defend your Ellen White Catholic satan doctrine -------------------------------
Dave uses the HaSatan as a term for a good angel doing a bad job as a prosecutor, Correct – Hebrew satan = an angel of the Lord – in service to the lord Correct Jewish satan / devils has always been Beelzebub and the shedim
but Rabbi Davis does not use this term at all. Because he is not talking about Hebrew satan the prosecutor is he - DUH ------------------------
Rp"The HaSatan was ruling over King Tyre. D" YES Robert – the King of Tyre was sucked in by (yester ra)- arrogance – self-importance - SELF R" That is NOT what Rabbis Davis is saying Dave.
Rabbi Davis said "the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan" Not sucked in by the human kings's own self importance - SELF This is also Robert's view, another higher king is ruling over the human King Tyre, this spiritual king is called HaSatan.
Correct you have a 4th god – you need to be the god of evil – and you claim that is satan god rules all men – you claim that Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 prove that your evil satan is god – and that the Creator god must respond and react to your evil god by changing God’s own creation.
You deny the sovereignty of God – you share it with your satan -------------------------------
D"YES – Rabbi Davis just validated that the ‘sinning angels’ are locked away in Tartarus To be release later in Rev 9 R" You cannot agree slightly to Rabbi Davis as you write, because you do not have a notion of angels that have free will to choose to sin in the first place. NOPE – no free will for angels – or archon – only man is the creature that can choose
The commandment was – go forth be fruitful and multiple Rabbi Davis says – evidently these archon have the “SAME COMPLUSION” If - you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then - you will not understand scripture -------------------
Job 4: 8 As I have seen, those who plow violence and sow mischief will reap it. חכַּֽאֲשֶׁ֣ר רָ֖אִיתִי חֹ֣רְשֵׁי אָ֑וֶן וְזֹֽרְעֵ֖י עָמָ֣ל יִקְצְרֻֽהוּ:
Comments by Rashi : As I have seen: that those who plow violence and prepare the iniquity in their thoughts, like a plower who prepares [the field] before sowing, afterwards they sow mischief with their deeds. And I saw that they will reap it-i.e., their evil that comes upon them, and I saw that. YEP – Correct – their own deeds – man’s doings – man’s choices
2Co 5:10 for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil;
All proportionally fair
Rabbi Rashi fails to make comments about "aven" the Hebrew word. I throw this comment in just to show you not all Hebrew words are studied carefully by the Jews, Rabbi Rashi fails to pick up on aven. I looked up several verses using aven and Rabbi Rashi does not even notice the Hebrew word exists. No one doubts that (yester ra) leads to sin No one is denying that (yester ra) leads to evil (ra) or even wickedness (aven) You just want to play a word game ---------
D"I have answer every one of your question – consistently and completely – R" No you haven't. You copy and paste YEP - same answer – over and over – it is called consistency When your theology is complete – you do not have to explain away the many exceptions you invent
Where are your answers to questions - got any?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 15:41:24 GMT -5
Dave's previous posts" YES – Rabbi Davis just validated that the ‘sinning angels’ are locked away in Tartarus To be release later in Rev 9 How is this different that the Jewish Enoch version or mine?Than later about same theme Dave posts" NOPE – no free will for angels – or archon – only man is the creature that can choose
The commandment was – go forth be fruitful and multiple Rabbi Davis says – evidently these archon have the “SAME COMPLUSION” If - you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then - you will not understand scriptureRob replies" Dave you are totally ignoring that Rabbi Davis is opposing your view, and disagreeing with you. If fact you are completely ignoring any Rabbi Davis is saying. You are twisting the Rabbi's words and placing your words and your views over the top of the Rabbi Davis view. You also demonstrate you have a poor understanding of English grammar. Rob wrote a sentence you must agree to, but Dave didn't agree. "RP" You cannot agree slightly to Rabbi Davis as you write, because you do not have a notion of angels that have free will to choose to sin in the first place.
SInce this is YOUR VIEW, you reply should have been " CORRECT– no free will for angels – or archon – only man is the creature that can choose But instead Dave wrote D" NOPE – no free will for angels – or archon – only man is the creature that can choose You are not even listening to me, or when I write your view, you completely post your views over the top and anything anybody writes about you. That is arrogance and the fact you do not listen to other people. It is clear in your view, that angels do not have free will, nor archons have free will. It is clear your messengers came from the chief archon, to go forth and multiple as his function, a commandment from God. BUT this is NOT what Rabbi Davis is saying. Dave posts" The commandment was – go forth be fruitful and multiple
Rabbi Davis says – evidently these archon have the “SAME COMPLUSION”
R" You are completely ignoring what Rabbi Davis is saying and posting your views over the top of the Rabbi Davis view. Rob quotes Rabbi Davis " I suggest to you that these demigods with their superhuman powers: Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, and a pantheon of others might very well have had their origins in, and be identical with the fallen angels of the Bible.Rabbi Davis says the origin of the shedim come from fallen angels. " We need first to examine the word Nephilim. Its root is from the Hebrew word naphal that contains in its definition, one who is “cast down.” Nephilim means: of superhuman statue and strength, and conveys the idea of one that is cast down or fallen down. Ergo the Biblical “fallen angels.”Rabbi Davis speaks of the idea that the Nephilim comes from the idea of "cast down" hence the term fallen. This is different to Rob's view, with the idea than fallen means, to have sinned. Does Rabbi Davis see the angels as sinning angels? " The first Biblical reference I gave refers to angels that left their first estate and by their ability to transform themselves into humanoid creatures cohabited with women that established a satanic line in the lineage of humankind. Some of these entities are free to roam the planet with their leader, HaSatan, while others are bound to be released during the time of Tribulation.
This is speaking along Dave's view. I say sort of. Dave has a chief archon termed satanas, who made other messengers as his demigods, from the command to go forth and multiply. But Rabbi Davis terms the chief as HaSatan, not satanas. . In the Book of Enoch to which Jude refers in the B’rit Chadashah, we find written in chapter 6, 1, 2 an ancient view of the event I have just spoken on. “And it came to pass, when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. “And the Angels, the children of heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: “Come let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.”
This text predates Yahshua by centuries as does the “Book of Jubilees, that says, “And against His angels whom He has sent to earth he was very angry. He commanded that they be uprooted from all their dominion, And told us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold, are in the midst of them and they are isolated.”
Rob sees some problems here. Rabbi Davis is making the Gen 6 thing true, adding that Jude speaks about this idea, and that the Book of Jubilees is a inspired book of the OT torah? Rabbi Davis is supporting Dave's view here.... Rabbi Davis uses a term "chief of these beings" " In Ezekiel 28: 12-15 we read of the chief of these beings."And says" Ezek. 28:15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
And compares this being with Then we read in Isaiah 14:12- 15 that this being was cast from heaven: It is profitable for us to know something of Tyre of which this spiritual entity was its spiritual king and underlying power. Israel not heeding YHVH’s warning to be set apart and not to have interaction with unbelieving nations interacted politically and commercially with Tyre, and from the preceding verses we know that the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan. One of Tyre’s most coveted exports was purple dye so sought after by the world, (HaSatan always makes sin attractive)
Rabbi Davis writes the spiritual king of Tyre was HaSatan, a fallen angel, cast down from heaven, who makes sin attractive to humans. Rob also wants confirmation the HaSatan also sins. I note the Rabbi Davis leaves out the Ezekiel quote that the cherub sinned. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (the dragon being HaSatan); and the dragon fought and his angels (fallen angels that followed HaSatan), Rabbi Davis does not detail how these fallen angels came to be with the HaSatan, so did these angels sin? We need to know that the earth is Satan’s dominion. This is a good quote. There we have it. Our struggle is not against fleshly powers, but against spiritual entities we have categorized as demons
Rabbi Davis is equating the demons (shedim) as "fallen angels" along with the HaSatan. In the B’rit Chadashah generally, in James 2:19 and in Rev. 16:14 these supernatural spirits are spoken of as at enmity with G-d, Rabbi Davis is saying the shedim are at enimity with God, obviously opposing God. This is not Dave's view. Here, the “mystery of iniquity” is revealed. It is that lawless spirit that has been present since HaSatan set Himself against the Laws of Heaven. It is with us today in the pulpits in the form of antinomianism.
Rabbi Davis is saying HaSatan set Himself against the laws of heaven, obviously opposing God. This is not Dave's view. I quote wiki" In some Christian belief systems, an antinomian is one who takes the principle of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments.[2][3] The distinction between antinomian and other Christian views on moral law is that antinomians believe that obedience to the law is motivated by an internal principle flowing from belief rather than from any external compulsion" motivated by an internal principle flowing from belief rather than from any external compulsion" Confusing? Scripture says the commandments are faithful, (Ps 119:86 ) ie prayer promises of power. If a straight person sees a need for the power but does not speak the prayer promise, it is missing (sin) because he does not ask in faith. Therefore a straight person must always and continually pray the prayer promises of faith, to guard even the ten commandments that define love as a power flow from GOD into the human who asks for this power. However, Rabbi Davis is saying HaSatan set Himself against the laws of heaven, obviously opposing God. This is not Dave's view. You do not have to be a bible scholar to understand the theme of these scriptures. HaSatan is actively pursuing a program of unrighteousness, punctuated by deception and the greatest of these deceptions is that G-d’s righteousness as proclaimed in His Living and Written Torah is invalid for ‘believers” today. The Bible tells us that HaSatan is the author of lies and that Torah is the truth. Rabbi Davis is saying the HaSatan is opposing God. If the HaSatan is the author of lies, deceptions and therefore sins against God. 2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Rabbi Davis quotes this verse, saying the fallen angels are obviously sinning angels. The word translated “hell” here is “Tartarus” meaning the deepest pit of gloom, but these angels are scheduled to be released in the time of Noach to once again bring darkness and despair upon mankind.Rabbi Davis says the fallen angels are to be released soon upon mankind. Be prepared, for YHVH will unleash these bound demons to work their evil among us. We have been warned and we have been given a time mark to observe for Yahshua says it will be in a time like the time of Noach. Rabbi Davis says YHWH is in control of their release upon man. We are warned. ------------------------ Rob previous Post" Dave uses the HaSatan as a term for a good angel doing a bad job as a prosecutor,D" Correct – Hebrew satan = an angel of the Lord – in service to the lord Correct Jewish satan / devils has always been Beelzebub and the shedimRP" but Rabbi Davis does not use this term at all. D" Because he is not talking about Hebrew satan the prosecutor is he - DUHR" Clearly you are ignoring what Rabbi Davis is saying. If Rabbi Davis said " the Spiritual King of Tyre was HaSatan" than the HaSatan cannot be a prosecutor, if the prosecutor is also a king over King Tyre? Really Dave, starting reading Rabbi Davis carefully. RP" This is also Robert's view, another higher king is ruling over the human King Tyre, this spiritual king is called HaSatan.D" Correct you have a 4th god – you need to be the god of evil – and you claim that is satan god rules all men R" Yes but Dave, Rabbi Davis believes this also, not just me. Rabbi Davis does not support your view. The Rabbi has some things different from my view also, some things support Dave's view, but overall is following my view of the Opposer opposing God first, than opposing man. This is not your view. You are welcome to you own ideas Dave, but do you agree that Rabbi Davis is NOT supporting your view? The only person so far I have found supporting your view is David Icke, he uses the term archons. You are not following Messanic ideas at all, especially with the idea of the HaSatan, as Rabbi Davis outlines. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 6, 2022 6:00:08 GMT -5
Does Rabbi Davis see the angels as sinning angels? "The first Biblical reference I gave refers to angels that left their first estate and by their ability to transform themselves into humanoid creatures cohabited with women that established a satanic line in the lineage of humankind. Some of these entities are free to roam the planet with their leader, HaSatan, while others are bound to be released during the time of Tribulation. Robert’s word game The opposer – opposes man The acuser – accuses man The term satan = a function NOT a god
This is speaking along Dave's view. I say sort of. Dave has a chief archon termed satanas, who made other messengers as his demigods, from the command to go forth and multiply. But Rabbi Davis terms the chief as HaSatan, not satanas. Robert’s word game Rev 12:9 – The Beast = the ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas (G4567) The opposer – opposes man The acuser – accuses man The term satan = a function NOT a god
In the Book of Enoch to which Jude refers in the B’rit Chadashah, Rob sees some problems here. Rabbi Davis is making the Gen 6 thing true, adding that Jude speaks about this idea, and that the Book of Jubilees is a inspired book of the OT torah? Rabbi Davis is supporting Dave's view here.... Correct – you are the only one who denies the truth of scripture If – you do noy understand Gen 6 Then – you will not understand the ahl/OTEzek. 28:15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. Correct – cannot be the Beast – it appeared in a plurality read to devour (Rev 12:3-4)And compares this being with Rabbi Davis writes the spiritual king of Tyre was HaSatan, Correct – the Beast – that old serpent race – that we call devils and satanas = The opposer The Beast is the master of this world – lust – greed – selfishness – self-importance - SELFISHNESSRabbi Davis is equating the demons (shedim) as "fallen angels" along with the HaSatan. In the B’rit Chadashah generally, in James 2:19 and in Rev. 16:14 these supernatural spirits are spoken of as at enmity with G-d,
Jas 2:19 thou—thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder! Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, 'Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth;' Rev 16:2 and the first did go away, and did pour out his vial upon the land, and there came a sore—bad and grievous—to men, those having the mark of the beast, and those bowing to his image. Rev 16:3 And the second messenger did pour out his vial to the sea, and there came blood as of one dead, and every living soul died in the sea. Rev 16:4 And the third messenger did pour out his vial to the rivers, and to the fountains of the waters, and there came blood, Rabbi Davis is saying the shedim are at enimity with God, obviously opposing God. This is not Dave's view.WHERE DO YOUR VERSES SUPPORT YOU STATEMENTJas 2:19 – the archon know there is only One True God Rev 16:4 – the messengers are pouring out the wrath of God Why do you teach it a sin to obey God? Is obeying God wrong in your SDA Ellen White teaching = 100% NOT a Christian teaching
Here, the “mystery of iniquity” is revealed. It is that lawless spirit that has been present since HaSatan set Himself against the Laws of Heaven. Rabbi Davis is saying HaSatan set Himself against the laws of heaven, obviously opposing God. This is not Dave's view. NOPE – God established the enmity between man and archon Gen 3:14 And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, … Gen 3:15 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee—the head, and thou dost bruise him—the heel.'
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Rabbi Davis quotes this verse, saying the fallen angels are obviously sinning angels. YES – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 = the sinning messengers 100% Jewish – 100% Christian – 100% Gnostic Christianity And these sinning angels are locked away – separated from man (Jude 1:6 + 2 Peter 2:4)The word translated “hell” here is “Tartarus” meaning the deepest pit of gloom, but these angels are scheduled to be released in the time of Noach to once again bring darkness and despair upon mankind. Rabbi Davis says the fallen angels are to be released soon upon mankind. Correct – Rev 9 – to again be used by God to facilitate God’s plan Why do you teach it a sin to obey God – why is it a sin to be used by God
Be prepared, for YHVH will unleash these bound demons to work their evil among us. We have been warned and we have been given a time mark to observe for Yahshua says it will be in a time like the time of Noach. Rabbi Davis says YHWH is in control of their release upon man. We are warned. Y ou disagree with Rabbi Davis – you say the archon disobey God – oppose God – hate God ------------------------ The only person so far I have found supporting your view is David Icke, What of all the other evidence I have posted for you What of all the videos I posted for you Deny away Robert – lie or misrepresent – whatever it takes to support your Ellen White satan beliefs Where are your answers to questions - got any? Evidently NOT! I will watch your videos later SURE YOU WILL – still waitingIn fact I have been waiting for 3 years for you to answer the simplest of questions WHY DO YOU TEACH IT A SIN TO OBEY GOD? Rabbi Davis says YHWH is in control of their release upon man. We are warned. SOUNDS LIKE GOD'S PLAN - GOD IS IN CONTROL - GOD'S WILL
because God is absolute and sovereign – why do you deny it?Psa 103:19 Jehovah in the heavens Hath established His throne, And His kingdom over all hath ruled. Psa 103:20 Bless Jehovah, ye His messengers, Mighty in power—doing His word, To hearken to the voice of His Word. Psa 103:21 Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers—doing His pleasure. Psa 103:22 Bless Jehovah, all ye His works, In all places of His dominion. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 14:12:18 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Sorry for the long delay, but I have been reading as many Messianic synagogues as I could find, to ascertain what Messianic Jewish religion is. Yashua came from heaven
May 21, 2022 Psalm 49 - Rabbi Greg Hershberg
youtu.be/j4sUK45wDqI
18 minute
A Messanic Rabbi of a Synagogue of supporters.
Resurrection is very Jewish
Even rich people die, 1 out of one people finally die.
Ps 49:15 ¶ But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
I study words, careful with my words. God receives us, not takes us.Rob" Nothing from this Messianic Rabbi on demonology doctrine. ----------------- Greg Hershberg Beth Yeshua International Born in the Bronx section of New York City in 1959, when Dwight D. Eisenhower was President, the L.A. Dodgers won the World Series, Ben Hur won a record 11 academy awards, and everyone loved Lucy. ------------------- www.bethimmanuel.org/about/questionsR" Nice assembly. But lacking articles and details of their doctrines/ ----------------------- rabdavis.org/demonology/Seems to follow Daves view, so Dave claims From this deduction, it would seem that demons are not angels, but a prehistoric race of personal moral agents who lived here on earth before Adam in the first Paradise of G-d in which HaSatan as Lucifer lived and ruled. They might have been his subjects then. He had a kingdom here on earth, as G-d of this age, Prince (Ruler) of this world, and still holds that sway. THis is Dave's view. --------------------- www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1987422/jewish/Nephilim-Fallen-Angels-Giants-or-Men.htmThe Midrash3 relates that when the generation of the Flood went astray, G‑d began to regret having created man. Then two angels, Shamchazai and Azael,4 came before G‑d and said, “Did we not warn You before You created man, saying, ‘What is man, that You should be mindful of him?’”5 G‑d replied: “Then what shall become of the world?” “We will suffice instead,” they replied. G‑d answered, “I know that would you live on that world, the evil inclination would rule you just as much as it controls man, but you would be even worse.” But the angels persisted, saying: “Let us descend to the world of men, and we will show You how we will sanctify your name.” And G‑d said: “Go down and dwell among them.”
Sure enough, as soon as the angels descended, their evil inclination overpowered them.6 When they saw the beautiful “daughters of man,”7 they became corrupted and sinned with them. They and their descendants are the nephilim, the giants and mighty ones referred to later on in the narrative.8
This story is often seen as support for the notion of “fallen angels.” But a careful reading reveals that this is not the case. G‑d sent them down knowing full well—and indeed expecting—that they would end up sinning.
In fact, in Judaism there is no such thing as fallen angels or conflict in heaven. There is only one Creator in charge of it all, with no forces opposing Him. Even “Satan” is merely the name of an angel whose divinely assigned task is to tempt people to sin.9
Rob" This is Dave's view. Completely made up from my opinion, to allow human invented ideas and traditions of men to be added to the torah. --------------------- blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-devious-way-that-messianic-jews-are-trying-to-destroy-judaism/They want to remove the lines between faiths and to break down theological boundaries between us. This is why Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, z”l, was so opposed to the use of the term “Judeo-Christian” when referring to heritage or tradition, because we need to keep tight hold of our tradition and not allow it to slide into Christianity.They view themselves as “completed Jews”, who have replaced us (the real Jews) because God rejected us. If they call themselves Jewish, they mean it, because to their way of thinking they are real Jews. They think they are establishing a new utopia where there’s no difference between Jew and Christian.Imagine there’s no Jews, it isn’t hard to doMessianic Jews want to get rid of the differences between Jews and non-Jews.Make no mistake, Messianic Jews, like all missionary Christians, want nothing other than the total destruction of the Jews as a distinct nation. No, that’s not an exaggeration. They want us to lose everything that sets us apart from Christianity. The goal of every missionary, no matter how sweet and nice they are, is no different to that of the Muslim Brotherhood, or the Bolsheviks, or the Islamic Caliphate, or of the Catholic church for centuries: to replace every other religion in the world with belief in their own religion. Okay, I grant you that they do not use violence to achieve their goal. Hooray.Rob" Messanic Jews cannot mix traditional Jewish bits and pretend to be Jewish, it seems traditional Jews do not like this.-------------------------------- Reading what others think of messanic Jews and real JewsFirst of all, let's look at where Judaism is currently on the question of "who is a Jew"?. Some people like to perpetuate the false notion that Jewishness is only a matter of religious belief alone, and they'll even play the "anti-Semitism" card on you and compare you to Hitler if you don't swallow that idea wholesale...but that's obviously just a smoke screen as you can be a complete atheist and still be a considered a Jew. There are totally non-religious Jews and even homosexual Jews who are still considered Jewish, so Jewish identity obviously goes far beyond simply a matter of religious belief or even practice. Jewish identity involves being a part of the House of Israel, a son or daughter of Abraham, and being a part of Jewish peoplehood. Yes, people of other races and ethnic backgrounds can join the House of Israel, but when they do, it is assumed that they are becoming part of a Jewish heritage--not just changing religions. They'll tell you that if you converted to Judaism or if your mother was a Jew, then you're a Jew--even if you subsequently stop practicing the religion---but then they'll turn around and look at someone whose mother was a full-fledged practicing Jew and who grew up in a synagogue and say he somehow "quit being a Jew", just because he believes in Jesus. I know it sounds crazy, but this is really what is being perpetuated.Now let's look at Christianity. Christianity was considered a branch of Judaism from its inception, and so it was. Jesus was a Jew. The apostles of Christ were all Jewish. Thousands of Jews were believers in Jesus. Even the Apostle Paul, the "apostle to the gentiles" was a Jew. Unlike Buddhism, Paganism, Hinduism, or Islam, Christianity was a direct outgrowth of Judaism, and the early Jewish believers in the Jewish messiah never "stop being Jewish" or "morphed into gentiles" (as though that would even be possible), or somehow "gave up" their Jewish identity or status.Things came to a head after the "Bar Kochba" revolt against Rome. Simon Bar Kochba was proclaimed to be the messiah. Jewish believers in Jesus refused to march under the banner of a false messiah and defected. Because there were so many thousands of Jews who believed in Jesus, their refusal to support a false messiah had devastating consequences for the revolt. The Jews lost and were barred from Jerusalem. At that point, Jews who did not believe in Jesus began pretending that those who DID believe had somehow "lost their Jewish status" or "stopped being Jewish" and had somehow turned themselves into non-Jews. This silliness continues to this very day, and it often rips families apart.Whether you are or aren't a Jew according to Halacha (Jewish Law) isn't relevant, the religion you are practicing is not Judaism. At worst you are an observer of Avodah Zara, a middle route just makes you an apostate, at best you are a Tinkok Shenishba (someone who is Halachically Jewish, but because you were raised by non-Jews and are ignorant of the religion you are not held as accountable for those actions which violate Jewish Law).Call your religion something else, go back to calling yourself Hebrew-Christians and most Jews will no longer care what you do or say. It's because you're claiming to be part of our religion, when you're antithetical to it, which is why it has to be made clear you are not Jews, and are denounced as such.Rob" I agree. I am a Hebrew-Christian. It allows the Jews to see their own religion, unstained.To relate that to my personal experience it is like when I tell a Christian bent on converting me "No thanks I am Lakota" and they say "I know native people who are Christian, you can be Native and Christian". Well in my opinion you can't. Our teachings are clear on not mixing teachings. Rob" Mixing one's religion with other traditions and practices destroys the religious culture you used to have. ------------------- A Jew who accepts Christianity might call himself a “Jewish Christian,”
but he is no longer a Jew[1]. He can no longer even be counted as part of a
Jewish congregation[2].
Conversion to another faith is an act of religious treason in Judaism. It is one of
the worst possible sins that a Jew can ever commit. Along with murder and
incest, it is one of the three cardinal sins which may not be violated even
under pain of death. [3] It’s a big deal.
Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. (One who practices idolatry denies the whole of the Torah.)[4]
He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.
Maimonides himself wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew (Yad, loc. cit. 2:5.). Also see Maimonides, Hilchot Mamrim Perek 3, Halacha 1-3, as well as in Maimonides's Mishnah Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5.Summary by Rob" So a Jewish person cannot accept Yashuah and remain Jewish, such a stand is considered by Jews as committing adultery, or apostacy. One thing I have learned from reading about Jews (and there is only one source of knowledge for this it seems, the traditional Jew) is they invent much stuff, and do not adhere to the torah, as they claim to adhere. RabbiDavis, and others like this are mixing Christian torah with traditional Jewish torah, and according to the traditional Jew, this is not allowed. So Dave, you are not supporting traditional Jewish writings. All you are doing is adding some Jewish stuff to your Christianity and pretending to be both Gnostic and Christian and Jewish, very much mixing. Adding more confusion. In contrast, I support sola scriptoria to the Hebrew torah. I consider myself Hebrew, and I support Yashua who was also Hebrew. I would like a link to reading the Book of Jubilees online. Dave do you have such a link. Most are hard to find. I find Rabbi Davis comment terrible, do not throw out the baby with the baby water. The Rabbi is suggesting that it is OK to read some good bits with the bad bits, not how the torah says to read writings. The Jews invent the story that GOD allowed sinless angels to go down to earth to help humans, but the sinless angels became corrupted by earth?? it's really bogus fables, causes the fact that sin no longer entered the world via free will from some angel that sinned. Violates Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. It's obvious Jews ignore this verse and pretend the simile does not exist. I tried to email Rabbi Davis, but no reply. Typical. Dave is the only person willing to stand by me. How many Jews would stand to defend their faith? None I have found. SDA are also the same, they do not like defending their faith either. It seems people are afraid to discuss matters with you. They expect you to first be culturalized into their thinking first. Imagine a 8 to 13 year boy memorizing torah plus midrash and tulmud, by the time is enters Jewish world how much non-bias does he have for sola scriptoria torah ? none Just like Nemiah Gordon, you ignore the verses you don't like and invent terms to get around theology you wish to ignore. And you cannot email them. Oh no. "Maimonides himself wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew" tells me Dave that you cannot mix Jewish stuff with the NT torah. So you cannot mix OT Jewish ideas with NT torah. Thus I doubt a traditional Jew would view your three expressions of the Father, as ONE FATHER either. You are mixing religions and being disrespectful to both Christianity and Jewish writings. Since you can't talk to Jews about their religion, we are stuck learning own religion of being saved. Therefore adding your Jewish idea of yester ra is also wrong, because you are not a Jew, nor wish to live as a Jew. Maimonides says you must come over to being a Jew and forget the NT torah. You are mixing both Jewish OT and Christian NT. Not allowed according to the Jew. In my world, the Hebrew Scriptures speak their messages clearly. The Hebrew Scriptures, is not Jewish nor Christian, but Hebrew. A sore point with you is the evidence of "satan" as a fallen angel long before Catholic invented this idea? But the cherub sinned verse already existed in the Hebrew torah, but no Jew supported it, does not make the verse wrong, it makes the Jewish ignorance of the verse wrong. I could also add the Jewish idea of elohiym as well. And their idea of echad. And their idea of amanuah. And the fact the Jew does not support "aven", the genetic propensity that govern our thoughts and behaviours. The NT says the shedim sins like a human sins. Dave has no answer to this verse. It cannot be angels God allowed to come down to earth, because angels have no free will to sin. It cannot be archons because they have no free will either. SO Dave has to twist the NT to fit into Jewish thinking to invent a religion he chooses to follow. Hence your Gnostic religion does not follow Jew nor Christian nor Hebrew ideas. It is a brand new idea invented by you, a mixing of bits and pieces, adding the OT and NT torah as you do. I hope it works out for you. I can still be a friend even though we disagree. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2022 10:45:08 GMT -5
Sorry for the long delay, but I have been reading as many Messianic synagogues as I could find, to ascertain what Messianic Jewish religion is. No shame in doing your homework – refreshing actually----------------------- May 21, 2022 Psalm 49 - Rabbi Greg Hershberg A Messanic Rabbi of a Synagogue of supporters. Resurrection is very Jewish Yes – All Jew will be resurrected in the end – ahl Resurrection of the faithful comes from the Book of Maccabees – introduced to Judaism during the inner-testament period Ps 49:15 ¶ But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. I study words, careful with my words. God receives us, not takes us. YES – from God we came – and to God we returnRob" Nothing from this Messianic Rabbi on demonology doctrine. Yet – you still disagree / deny what you have posted----------------- rabdavis.org/demonology/ Seems to follow Daves view, so Dave claimsFrom this deduction, it would seem that demons are not angels, but a prehistoric race of personal moral agents who lived here on earth before Adam in the first Paradise of G-d in which HaSatan as Lucifer lived and ruled. They might have been his subjects then. He had a kingdom here on earth, as G-d of this age, Prince (Ruler) of this world, and still holds that sway. This is Dave's view.1- a prehistoric RACE of beings – Correct 2- on /in earth since Gen 1:2 = all physical creation not just planet earth -Correct 3- physical reality = their kingdom / domain – Correct 4- I do not use the terminology of Lucifer – it is a Roman Catholic invention BUT – as long as you understand who you are talking about – names do not matter a prehistoric RACE of beings – Correct – The Beast of Revelation that appeared in a plurality--------------------- www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1987422/jewish/Nephilim-Fallen-Angels-Giants-or-Men.htmThe Midrash3 relates that when the generation of the Flood went astray, G‑d began to regret having created man. YES – 100% scripture Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Then two angels, Shamchazai and Azael,4 came before G‑d and said, “Did we not warn You before You created man, saying, ‘What is man, that You should be mindful of him?’”5 G‑d replied: “Then what shall become of the world?” “We will suffice instead,” they replied. G‑d answered, “I know that would you live on that world, the evil inclination would rule you just as much as it controls man, but you would be even worse.” But the angels persisted, saying: “Let us descend to the world of men, and we will show You how we will sanctify your name.” And G‑d said: “Go down and dwell among them.” 1- Azazal – Azael – the leader of the bane elohiym 2- G‑d answered, “I know that would you live on that world, the evil inclination would rule you just as much as it controls man, but you would be even worse.” (yester ra) – Rabbi Davis called it a COMPULSION The commandment for all biology – go forth be fruitful and multiply 3- God is omniscient – God knew exactly what would happen - AND 4- And G‑d said: “Go – God’s Plan – God’s Will – God is in controlSure enough, as soon as the angels descended, their evil inclination overpowered them. Correct - (yester ra) – Rabbi Davis called it a COMPULSION The commandment for all biology – go forth be fruitful and multiply6 When they saw the beautiful “daughters of man,”7 they became corrupted and sinned with them. They and their descendants are the nephilim, the giants and mighty ones referred to later on in the narrative.8 This story is often seen as support for the notion of “fallen angels.” But a careful reading reveals that this is not the case. G‑d sent them down knowing full well—and indeed expecting—that they would end up sinning. Correct – no such thing as ‘Fallen Angels’ 3- God is omniscient – God knew exactly what would happen - AND 4- And G‑d said: “Go – God’s Plan – God’s Will – God is in control
In fact, in Judaism there is no such thing as fallen angels or conflict in heaven. There is only one Creator in charge of it all, with no forces opposing Him. Even “Satan” is merely the name of an angel whose divinely assigned task is to tempt people to sin.9 YES – 3- God is omniscient – God knew exactly what would happen - AND 4- And G‑d said: “Go – God’s Plan – God’s Will – God is in control 5- who can oppose God or force God to change – NO ONE!
Rob" This is Dave's view. Completely made up from my opinion, to allow human invented ideas and traditions of men to be added to the torah. Correct – you do NOT teach that God is absolute or in control You teach that your satan angel is so powerful – he can oppose God and corrupted all of God creation You teach that Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 prove the hand of satan as god ABSOLUTE SATANIC NONESENSE--------------------- blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-devious-way-that-messianic-jews-are-trying-to-destroy-judaism/ They want to remove the lines between faiths and to break down theological boundaries between us. This is why Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, z”l, was so opposed to the use of the term “Judeo-Christian” when referring to heritage or tradition, because we need to keep tight hold of our tradition and not allow it to slide into Christianity. YES – Messianic Jews are NOT Roman Catholic and never will be I absolute reject the title – I am NOT a Roman Catholic or a Protestant I am a Gnostic Christian – because I lack the genetic heritage o be a Messianic JewThey view themselves as “completed Jews”, who have replaced us (the real Jews) because God rejected us. If they call themselves Jewish, they mean it, because to their way of thinking they are real Jews. They think they are establishing a new utopia where there’s no difference between Jew and Christian. Messianic Jew = completed Jews – OK Jesus came to fulfill NOT replaceRob" Messanic Jews cannot mix traditional Jewish bits and pretend to be Jewish, it seems traditional Jews do not like this. Correct – there is a reanimate of Jews left behind – all God’s Plan – all God’s Will For the fulfillment of prophesy – all God’s Will – all God’s Plan – all God’s designRom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. -------------------------------- Now let's look at Christianity. Christianity was considered a branch of Judaism from its inception, and so it was. Jesus was a Jew. The apostles of Christ were all Jewish. Thousands of Jews were believers in Jesus. Even the Apostle Paul, the "apostle to the gentiles" was a Jew. Unlike Buddhism, Paganism, Hinduism, or Islam, Christianity was a direct outgrowth of Judaism, and the early Jewish believers in the Jewish messiah never "stop being Jewish" or "morphed into gentiles" (as though that would even be possible), or somehow "gave up" their Jewish identity or status. ABSOLUTE CORRECT – ABSOLUTELY MY POINT CONTEXT of the Gospel = Jewish theology + Jewish demonology of Jesus and His disciples and the First True Christians we all Pentecostal, Messianic Jews -------------------------------- Things came to a head after the "Bar Kochba" revolt against Rome. Excuse me – 132AD – 100 years after Jesus ChristCall your religion something else, go back to calling yourself Hebrew-Christians and most Jews will no longer care what you do or say. It's because you're claiming to be part of our religion, when you're antithetical to it, which is why it has to be made clear you are not Jews, and are denounced as such. Rob" I agree. I am a Hebrew-Christian. It allows the Jews to see their own religion, unstained. What – you denounce all Jewish teaching – You embrace Roman Christendom------------------- Summary by Rob" So a Jewish person cannot accept Yashuah and remain Jewish, such a stand is considered by Jews as committing adultery, or apostacy.Correct – there is a reanimate of Jews left behind – all God’s Plan – all God’s Will For the fulfillment of prophesy – all God’s Will – all God’s Plan – all God’s designOne thing I have learned from reading about Jews (and there is only one source of knowledge for this it seems, the traditional Jew) is they invent much stuff, and do not adhere to the torah, as they claim to adhere. This is your claim – you pigeonhole yourself to SDA teaching You do not adhere to the ahl/OT – you use the writings of Ellen White to change it / rewrite it into your own version RabbiDavis, and others like this are mixing Christian torah with traditional Jewish torah, and according to the traditional Jew, this is not allowed. WHY DO YOU DENY JESUS CHRIST Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. So Dave, you are not supporting traditional Jewish writings. All you are doing is adding some Jewish stuff to your Christianity and pretending to be both Gnostic and Christian and Jewish, very much mixing. Adding more confusion. Judaism + the Messiah = Messianic Judaism – NOT Roman Christendom Messianic Judaism + the Nag Hammadi – changes NOTHING – just reinforces the original Jewish demonologyIn contrast, I support sola scriptoria to the Hebrew torah. I consider myself Hebrew, and I support Yashua who was also Hebrew. INCORRECT – you follow the writing of you own personal prophetess – Ellen White Yet – you refuse to defend her – or explain her writings - or able to answer questions I would like a link to reading the Book of Jubilees online. Dave do you have such a link. I have given you the links many times – take notes – or pay attention Your pretend ignorance is tiringwww.sacred-texts.com/bib/jub/index.htmMost are hard to find. I find Rabbi Davis comment terrible, do not throw out the baby with the baby water. The Rabbi is suggesting that it is OK to read some good bits with the bad bits, not how the torah says to read writings. 1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, All reality validate the One True Creator You insist this prove satan is a god – you are satanic and insulting----------------------- The Jews invent the story that GOD allowed sinless angels to go down to earth to help humans, but the sinless angels became corrupted by earth?? it's really bogus fables, WHY DO YOU DENY SCRIPTURE Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. causes the fact that sin no longer entered the world via free will – WRONG Eve’s Free Will – Rom 5:12 WHY DO YOU DENY SCRIPTUREcauses the fact that sin no longer entered the world via free will from some angel that sinned. Violates Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. It's obvious Jews ignore this verse and pretend the simile does not exist. YOUR CATHOLIC SIMILE DOES NOT EXIST Never does a simile – a parallelism – or a metaphor come alive with a story all of its own The King of Tyre is as a cherub (protecting guardian of his kingdom) – end of simile---------------------------- I tried to email Rabbi Davis, but no reply. Typical. You probably did not come across as an academic – you are a cantankerous ass – and you do NOT speak factually – you present attitudes and call it studyHow many Jews would stand to defend their faith? None WHAT – the Jews have been defending their faith at the point of death for 5000 years – your disrespect is obviousI have found. SDA are also the same, they do not like defending their faith either. It seems people are afraid to discuss matters with you.YES – WE HAVE NOTICED THIS – YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS You are afraid to answer – because your doctrine does not fit the bulk of scriptureIF – you say what happened in Gen 1:2 – SIN Then – all your sinning angels are locked away from mankind IF - you say what happened in Gen 1:2 is a SIN and the satans and devils remain Then God is wrong – he said His creation was tov Gen 1:31 And Jude 1:6 + 2 Peter 2:4 are also wrong -------------------- They expect you to first be culturalized into their thinking first. Imagine a 8 to 13 year boy memorizing torah plus midrash and tulmud, by the time is enters Jewish world how much non-bias does he have for sola scriptoria torah ? none REPEAT - You probably did not come across as an academic – you are a cantankerous ass – and you do NOT speak factually – you present attitudes and call it study WHY DID YOU HAVE TO MAKE THIS UP – where is your documentation?----------------------------- "Maimonides himself wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew" DUH – New Covenant – same calling to a personal relationship with the Creator and to witness Since you can't talk to Jews about their religion, WHAT TYPE OF STATEMENT IS THISThere are volumes of literature – there are mountains of online services – there communities of scholarly debate all the time – there are schools to attend – classes to take YOUR PRETEND IGNORANCE is tiring--------------------- In my world, the Hebrew Scriptures speak their messages clearly. The Hebrew Scriptures, is not Jewish nor Christian, but Hebrew. Roberts WORD GAME REPEAT - I have found. SDA are also the same, they do not like defending their faith either. It seems people are afraid to discuss matters with you. YES – WE HAVE NOTICED THIS – YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS You are afraid to answer – because your doctrine does not fit the bulk of scripture------------------------- A sore point with you is the evidence of "satan" as a fallen angel long before Catholic invented this idea? But the cherub sinned verse already existed in the Hebrew torah, but no Jew supported it, does not make the verse wrong, it makes the Jewish ignorance of the verse wrong. Correct – the only way Ellen White satanology is correct – is if Judaism is error / wrong – a different religion – you have made this pint very clear------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ OK – Let’s be factualThere are two types of Messianic Jews(wiki) Messianic Judaism (Hebrew: יַהֲדוּת מְשִׁיחִית or יהדות משיחית, Yahadút Mešiḥít) is a modernist and syncretic movement of Protestant Christianity that incorporates some elements of Judaism and other Jewish traditions into evangelicalism. It emerged in the 1960s and 1970s from the earlier Hebrew Christian movement, and was most prominently propelled through the non-profit organization "Jews for Jesus" YES – Jews for Jesus That have been long time non-religious and became Christian These are Roman Christians that are trying to embrace their Jews heritage Some / many of them are comfortable with the idea or terminology of Fallen Angels REPEAT – This is a modernist and syncretic movement of Roman Christendom’s Protestant ChristianityHowever, adherents of Messianic Judaism believe that the movement is instead a form of Judaism. In the Hebrew language, they tend to identify themselves with the terms maaminim (מאמינים, lit. 'believers') and yehudim (יְהוּדִים, lit. 'Jews') in opposition to being identified as notzrim (נוצרים, lit. 'Christians'). Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Messianic Judaism believe that the movement is instead a form of Judaism + The Messiah = Messianic Judaism From 2003 to 2007, the movement grew from 150 Messianic houses of worship in the United States to as many as 438, with over 100 in Israel and more worldwide; congregations are often affiliated with larger Messianic organizations or alliances.[25][26] As of 2012, Messianic population estimates were between 175,000 and 250,000 members in the United States, between 10,000 and 20,000 members in Israel, and an estimated total worldwide membership of 350,000 ----------------------------- free.messianicbible.com/feature/angels-midst/What we do First and foremost, our mission is ministering to Jewish people with love and comfort. “Comfort, comfort my people (Israel), says your God.” Isaiah 40 Located in the Holy Land, the Bibles For Israel ministry is producing the first-ever Messianic Prophecy Bible. We educate Jewish people on the prophecies about the Messiah in the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures), showing the truths by defining the Messianic and rabbinical points of view. WHO IS THIS GROUP – Messianic Jews in Israel witnessing to JewsWhat and Who Are Angels? (messengers)“Praise the LORD, you his angels [malakh], you mighty ones who do His bidding, who obey His word.” (Psalm 103:20) God created angels (messengers) in a variety of forms for the purpose of serving. YES – 9/10 forms with 9/10 functionsBecause of their supernatural nature, it is easy to think that angels (messengers) possess a God-like quality; yet, that is not accurate. YET – some (messengers) do become worship as ’other gods’ Angels(messengers) are created beings ruled and governed by God. Traditional Judaism also contends that angels (messengers) are not created from the same basic elements that a physical being such as a human being is created. In fact, within Judaism, there is debate whether the Torah actually describes them as assuming physical form at all. Maimonides contends that they only appeared as a physical being during a vision or prophecy. (Chabad) Nevertheless, whether they actually assume physical form or simply appear as a physical being, they are spiritual, supernatural beings. Worship of Angels (messengers)The grandeur, power and mystery of angels makes it tempting to worship them, even though we know that worship of anything other than God is a violation of the First Commandment. YES – anything other than the Creator = science – a stature = a man – or an archon (messengers)There are both good and evil angels (messengers) (malakhei habbalah or destroying agents). Originally, the phrase indicated demons in Judaism, Good angels + malakhei habbalah DEATH, ANGEL OF.In the Bible death is viewed under form of an angel sent from God, a being deprived of all voluntary power. The "angel of the Lord" smites 185,000 men in the Assyrian camp (II Kings xix. 35). "The destroyer" ("ha-mashḥit") kills the first-born of the Egyptians (Ex. xii. 23), and the "destroying angel" ("mal'ak ha-mashḥit") rages among the people in Jerusalem (II Sam. xxiv. 15). In I Chron. xxi. 15 the "angel of the Lord" is seen by David standing "between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem." Job (xxxiii. 22) uses the general term "destroyer" ("memitim"), which tradition has identified with "destroying angels" ("mal'ake ḥabbalah") (Bacher, "Ag. Pal. Amor." iii. 279, note 9), and Prov. xvi. 14 uses the term the "angels of death" ("mal'ake ha-mawet"). See Demonology. The Rabbis found the angel of death mentioned in Ps. lxxxix. 45 (A. V. 48), where the Targum translates: "There is no man who lives and, seeing the angel of death, can deliver his soul from his hand" (compare also Targ. to Job xviii. 13; Ps. xci. 5; Hab. iii. 5). Eccl. viii. 4 is thus explained in Midr. R. to the passage: "One may not escape the angel of death, nor say to him, 'Wait until I put my affairs in order,' or 'There is my son, my slave: take him in my stead.'" REPEAT - an angel sent from God, a being deprived of all voluntary power. (NO FREE WILL – just following orders – serving the lord – helping to facilitate God Will / God’s Plan on earth) —In Rabbinical Literature: The angel of death occurs very frequently in rabbinical literature. Where the angel of death appears there is no remedy (Ned. 49a; Ḥul. 7b). If one who has sinned has confessed his fault, the angel of death may not touch him (Tan., Balaḳ, ed. Buber, 139). God protects from the angel of death (Gen. R. lxviii.). By acts of benevolence the anger of the angel of death is overcome; when one fails to perform such acts the angel of death will make his appearance (Derek Ereẓ Zuṭa, viii.). The angel of death receives his order from God (Ber. 62b). As soon as he has received permission to destroy, however, he makes no distinction between good and bad (B. Ḳ. 60a). In the city of Luz the angel of death has no power, and when the aged inhabitants are ready to die they go outside the city (Soṭah 46b; compare Sanh. 97a). A legend to the same effect existed in Ireland in the Middle Ages ("Jew. Quart. Rev." vi. 336). Form and Functions. The angel of death was created by God on the first day (Tan. on Gen. xxxix. 1). HELLO – host of heaven Day 1 – Gen 1:2His dwelling is in heaven, whence he reaches earth in eight flights, whereas pestilence reaches it in one (Ber. 4b). He has twelve wings (Pirḳe R. El. xiii). "Over all people have I surrendered thee the power," said God to the angel of death, OVER ALL – ALL CREATION - ENTROPY "only not over this one which has received freedom from death through the Law" (Tan. to Ex. xxxi. 18; ed. Stettin, p. 315). It is said of the angel of death that he is full of eyes. In the hour of death he stands at the head of the departing one with a drawn sword, to which clings a drop of gall. As soon as the dying man sees the angel, he is seized with a convulsion and opens his mouth, whereupon the angel throws the drop into it. This drop causes his death; he turns putrid, and his face becomes yellow ('Ab. Zarah 20b; in detail, Jellinck, "B. H." i. 150; on putrefaction see also Pesiḳ. 54b; for the eyes compare Ezek. i. 18 and Rev. iv. 6). The expression "to taste of death" originated in the idea that death was caused by a drop of gall ("Jew. Quart. Rev." vi. 327; see Death, Views of). The soul escapes through the mouth, or, as is stated in another place, through the throat; therefore the angel of death stands at the head of the patient (Jellinek, l.c. ii. 94, Midr.Teh. to Ps. xi.). When the soul forsakes the body its voice goes from one end of the world to the other, but is not heard (Gen. R. vi. 7; Ex. R. v. 9; Pirḳe R. El. xxxiv.). The drawn sword of the angel of death, mentioned by the Chronicler (I. Chron. xxi. 15; comp. Job xv. 22; Enoch lxii. 11), indicates that the angel of death was figured as a warrior who kills off the children of men. "Man, on the day of his death, falls down before the angel of death like a beast before the slaughterer" (Grünhut, "Liḳḳuṭim," v. 102a). R. Samuel's father (c. 200) said: "The angel of death said to me, 'Only for the sake of the honor of mankind do I not tear off their necks as is done to slaughtered beasts'" ('Ab. Zarah 20b). In later representations the knife sometimes replaces the sword, and reference is also made to the cord of the angel of death, which indicates death by throttling. Moses says to God: "I fear the cord of the angel of death" (Grünhut, l.c. v. 103a et seq.). Of the four Jewish methods of execution three are named in connection with the angel of death: burning (by pouring hot lead = the drop of gall), slaughtering (by beheading), and throttling. The angel of death administers the particular punishment which God has ordained for the commission of sin. Robert denies both the soul and EnochA peculiar mantle ("idra"—according to Levy, "Neuhebr. Wörterb." i. 32, a sword) belongs to the equipment of the angel of death (Eccl. R. iv. 7). The angel of death takes on the particular form which will best serve his purpose; e.g., he appears to a scholar in the form of a beggar imploring pity (M. Ḳ. 28a). "When pestilence rages in the town, walk not in the middle of the street, because the angel of death [i.e., pestilence] strides there; if peace reigns in the town, walk not on the edges of the road. When pestilence rages in the town, go not alone to the synagogue, because there the angel of death stores his tools. If the dogs howl, the angel of death has entered the city; if they make sport, the prophet Elijah has come" (B. Ḳ. 60b). The "destroyer" ("saṭan ha-mashḥit") in the daily prayer is the angel of death (Ber. 16b). Midr. Ma'ase Torah (compare Jellinek, "B. H." ii. 98) says: "There are six angels of death: Gabriel over kings; Ḳapẓiel over youths; Mashbir over animals; Mashḥit over children; Af and Ḥemah over man and beast." Identical with Antichrist.When the Messiah comes all the dead will arise, and there will be an end to death; for the angel of death himself will be destroyed by the Messiah (Pesiḳ. R., ed. Friedmann, p. 161b). Satan, as the angel of death, is identified here with Antichrist. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. xv. 26; compare Heb. ii. 14). The same idea seems to be expressed in the Book of Jubilees xxiii. 29: "And they shall fulfil all their days in peace and joy, and shall live on, since there will be no Satan and no evil to destroy them." Satan, as the angel of death, is identified here with Antichrist Robert must deny this because - The angel of death was created by God on the first dayThe angel of death, who is identified with Satan, immediately after his creation had a dispute with God as to the light of the Messiah (Pesiḳ. R. 161b). Robert must deny this because – Gen 1:1, 2, 3 come before Gen 1:31 and its tovWhen Eve touched the tree of knowledge, she perceived the angel of death, and thought: "Now I shall die, and God will create another wife for Adam" (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., end; compare Targum Yer. to Gen. iii. 6, and Yalḳ. i. § 25). Adam also had a conversation with the angel of death (Böklen, "Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Parsischen Eschatologie," p. 12). The angel of death sits before the face of the dead (Jellinek, l.c. ii. 94). While Abraham was mourning for Sarah the angel appeared to him, which explains why "Abraham stood up from before his dead" (Gen. xxiii. 3; Gen. R. lviii. 5, misunderstood by the commentators). Samuel told Sarah that Abraham had sacrificed Isaac in spite of his wailing, and Sarah died of horror and grief (Pirḳe R. El. xxxii.). It was Moses who most often had dealings with the angel. At the rebellion of Korah, Moses saw him (Num. R. v. 7; Bacher, l.c. iii. 333; compare Sanh. 82a). It was the angel of death in the form of pestilence which snatched away 15,000 every year during the wandering in the wilderness (ib. 70). When Moses reached heaven, the angel told him something (Jellinek, l.c. i. 61). When the angel of death came to Moses and said, "Give me thy soul," Moses called to him: "Where I sit thou hast no right to stand." And the angel retired ashamed, and reported the occurrence to God. Again, God commanded him to bring the soul of Moses. The angel went, and, not finding him, inquired of the sea, of the mountains, and of the valleys; but they knew nothing of him (Sifre, Deut. 305). Really, Moses did not die through the angel of death, but through God's kiss ("bi-neshiḳah"); i.e., God drew his soul out of his body (B. B. 17a; compare Abraham in Apocryphal and Rabbinical Literature, and parallel references in Böklen, l.c. p. 11). Legend seizes upon the story of Moses' struggle with the angel of death, and expands it at length (Tan., ed. Stettin, pp. 624 et seq.; Deut. R. ix., xi.; Grünhut, l.c. v. 102b, 169a). As Benaiah bound Ashmedai (Jew. Encyc. ii. 218a), so Moses binds the angel of death that he may bless Israel (Pesiḳ. 199, where "lifne moto" [Deut. xxxiii. 1] is explained as meaning "before the angel of death"). Solomon once noticed that the angel of death was grieved. When questioned as to the cause of his sorrow he answered: "I am requested to take your two beautiful scribes." Solomon at once charged the demons to convey his scribes to Luz, where the angel of death could not enter. When they were near the city, however, they both died. The angel laughed on the next day, whereupon Solomon asked the cause of his mirth. "Because," answered the angel, "thou didst send the youths thither, whence I was ordered to fetch them" (Suk. 53a). In the next world God will let the angel of death fight against Pharaoh, Sisera, and Sennacherib (Yalḳ., Isa. 428). WHAT KING SOLOMON – Robert must deny it all – God never gave King Solomon that much wisdom----------------------------- BACK TO - free.messianicbible.com/feature/angels-midst/Angels War and Protect Angels are involved in warfare and protection. They war with the angels of darkness who try to prevent ministering angels from performing their service to us. After many days of intense praying, an angel appeared to Daniel explaining why he came three weeks late: “The prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.” (Daniel 10:13) YES – the CONTEST is all about MAN------------------------- Jewish satan has always been Beelzebub and the shedim – validated by Jesus Christ Himself Mark 3:22, Luke 11:15, 18-19, Matthew 10:25, 27, 12:24, 27, 2 Kings 1:2The agl/NT tells us that Jewish satan = the Beast of Revelation – a serpent race – we call them devils and satans (satanas) MADE BY GOD FOR GOD – Col 1:16 The angel of death was created by God on the first The angel of death, who is identified with Satan, immediately after his creation had a dispute with God as to the light of the Messiah (Pesiḳ. R. 161b). Rev 12:1-5 = Gen 1:1, 2, 3 – and Gen 1:31 it is tov MADE BY GOD FOR GOD – Col 1:16 The angel of death was created by God on the first Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. THE ONLY THING THE NAG HAMMADI ADDS is that the Beast of Revelation – that First Archon – was of the Left Hand of God – the hand of mystery and judgment
The BEAST is Jewish satan – beelzebul and the shend = the archon The BEAST is NOT Hebrew satan – heavens prosecuorwww.jstor.org/stable/10.15699/jbibllite.133.2.251Satan, Yhwh's ExecutionerIn recent decades, scholars have taken great care not to assume that “the śāṭān” of Job 1–2 and of Zechariah 3 is supposed to be the archenemy of God and the opponent of good, as is Satan in later Jewish and Christian literature. Nevertheless, scholars have yet to eliminate anachronistic assumptions from their discussions of this figure as he is presented in the Hebrew Scriptures, maintaining that the śāṭān in Job and Zechariah holds the office of heavenly “prosecuting attorney” or “accuser.” ------------------------- Conclusion / Summary Either you accept that God is absolute sovereign – that God is greater than His creation – master of His creation – and everything that happens is all God’s design – God’s Plan – God’s Will – and therefore you can TRUST God and all His prophesies – you can TRUST God in His salvation Or – you believe in a weak god that lost control of his creation - because an angel recreated himself – changed his own created role within creation against God Will – then you insist your satan god changed all of God creation also against God’s Will – you teach that your satan god forces god to react and respond You even deny Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 as PROOF OF THE CREATOR You teach your satan god successfully killed god on the cross You teach that Jesus Christ was just a man SDA Ellen White Satanism is NOT Jewish in origin – it is 100% Roman Catholic All based on a false simile of Ezk 28 The King of Tyre is like a cherub – you demand it has nothing to do with the King of Tyre and all about the simile The Apocalypse of Peter"For many will accept our teaching in the beginning. And they will turn from them again by the will of the Father of their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e., the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And the guileless, good, pure one they push to the worker of death, and to the kingdom of those who praise Christ in a restoration. And they praise the men of the propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."
"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching. And they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: (those) who stand in (the) strength of the archons, of a man and a naked woman who is manifold and subject to much suffering. And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption."One of us does his best to deny everything mainstream Judeo-Christian and replace it with a new prophetess1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. The only way your Ellen White satanic religion is valid – is if you deny and rewrite scripture to fit your needs It requires an understanding of Gnostic literature in include women into the priesthood – an you deny every word of itNOT EVEN CLOSE!Yes – I have two gods and two kings - what's wrong with that? Jews and Christians have only ONE TRUE GOD and ONE TRUE KING – it’s called monotheism IF – you say what happened in Gen 1:2 = SIN Then God is wrong – Gen 1:31 God said it was tov IF – you say what happened in gen 1:2 = SIN and the Beast is still free to bother man Then God is wrong – Gen 1:31 God said it was tov Then Jude and 2 Peter are wrong – because the sinning angels are locked awayIf - you understand that what happened in Gen 1:2 = DARKNESS = ignorance Then God did NOT lie – Gen 1:31 God said it was tov Then Jude and 2 Peter are speaking about Enoch’s Watchers of Gen 6
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2022 14:15:33 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Thanks for the link to Jubilees
Book of Jubilees
" For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before Him--the angels 2 of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, 3 and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, 4 and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, 5 and the angels of the voices 6 and of the thunder and of the lightning, 7 and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer, 8 and of all the spirits of His creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide (and night), and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of His heart. 3. And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day. "
" R" So this is where you get the idea the angels were created on the first day of Creation.
And there were altogether two and twenty kinds.
R" What only 22 kinds of animals families? not many??
And after the completion of the seven years, which he had completed there, seven years exactly, and in the second month, on the seventeenth 8 A.M.day (of the month), the serpent came and approached the woman
R" SO precise, so the serpent only waited seven years before convincing Eve to sin?
According to Ber. rabba xviii., Sanh. 38b, Adam was only six hours in the Garden; cf. Pirḳe de R. Eliezer xviii. (Adam entered the garden at the seventh hour and was driven forth at twilight, i. e. the twelfth hour on Friday the eve of the Sabbath).
R" What so the Rabbi do not agree? And there is already a conflict?
And on that day on which Adam went forth from the garden, he offered as a sweet savour an offering, frankincense, galbanum, and stacte, and spices 2 in the morning with the rising of the sun from the day when he covered his shame. 28. And on that day was closed the mouth of all beasts, and of cattle, and of birds, and of whatever walketh, and of whatever moveth, so that they could no longer speak: 3 for they had all spoken one with another with one lip and with one tongue R" Hmm?
I quote from Ellen White
Chapter 1—Why Was Sin Permitted? Where do evil and suffering come from? Is God responsible? If not, why doesn't He at least stop it? Will it ever come to an end? What has God done to solve the problem, and what does that say about His character?
The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all created beings depended upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love—homage that springs from an intelligent appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced allegiance, and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service. "R" This includes angels, who also have free will to obey God and love God.
But there was one that chose to pervert this freedom. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and who stood highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Before his fall, Lucifer was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. “Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering.... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” Ezekiel 28:12-15." R" But sin originated in the first and closest and highest created creature of all created creatures, a cherub, that chose to sin.
I note that Jews (except Rabbi Apple, whuch you refuse to support) have nothing to say of Ezekiel and the cherub that sinned. I pity the discourse Jews follow, wandering off the track.
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D"The Rabbis found the angel of death mentioned in Ps. lxxxix. 45 (A. V. 48), where the Targum translates: "There is no man who lives and, seeing the angel of death, can deliver his soul from his hand" (compare also Targ. to Job xviii. 13; Ps. xci. 5; Hab. iii. 5). Eccl. viii. 4 is thus explained in Midr. R. to the passage: "One may not escape the angel of death, nor say to him, 'Wait until I put my affairs in order,' or 'There is my son, my slave: take him in my stead.'"
R" I cannot find anywhere in torah about an "Angel of death" , no such thing. D"REPEAT - an angel sent from God, a being deprived of all voluntary power. (NO FREE WILL – just following orders – serving the lord – helping to facilitate God Will / God’s Plan on earth) R" I see, angels have no free will. Got it.
D"The angel of death occurs very frequently in rabbinical literature. R" The "Angel of death" appears no where in the torah.
Somebody is making up stuff, and it is NOT the torah.
D"The angel of death was created by God on the first day (Tan. on Gen. xxxix. 1). R" really?
D"The angel of death, who is identified with Satan, immediately after his creation had a dispute with God as to the light of the Messiah (Pesiḳ. R. 161b). R" more made up stuff?
D"When Eve touched the tree of knowledge, she perceived the angel of death, and thought: "Now I shall die, and God will create another wife for Adam" (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., end; compare Targum Yer. to Gen. iii. 6, and Yalḳ. i. § 25). Adam also had a conversation with the angel of death (Böklen, "Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Parsischen Eschatologie," p. 12). The angel of death sits before the face of the dead (Jellinek, l.c. ii. 94). R" More made up stuff?
D"Angels War and Protect Angels are involved in warfare and protection. They war with the angels of darkness who try to prevent ministering angels from performing their service to us. R" explain your angels of darkness? so these are created by God too? FOrced to function as angels of darkness?
More made up stuff?
D"YES – the CONTEST is all about MAN R" so all this stuff is made up on day 1, before a man is even created, for what purpose? None I can see.
We have angel of death, angels of darkness, all doing what GOD commands, from force....angels have no free will....and this is called a contest for man, BEFORE man is even consisted as an idea, the only creature with free will....
More made up stuff.
So what Dave is presenting here is the SHEDIM are angels forced to function as angels of darkness, even as an angel of death, (there are at least six types??) and this is where the SHEDIM come from, from GOD. Yet there sinning is not sinning, as they have no free will, they do bad things because GOD wants them that way.... Really Dave.... 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
1Jo 3:8 The HUMAN that committeth sin is of the SHEDIM; for the SHEDIM sinneth from the beginning.
1Jo 3:8 The HUMAN that committeth sin is of the SINNING ANGELS for the ANGELS sinneth from the beginning.
There is a verse that agrees with this, Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. FUnny that. Two verses declare the angels have free will, and the angels sin like humans sin. Dave denies this verse. Angels have no free will. Archons have no free will. I guess we have to accept our differences. You choose to follow made up stuff by the Jews. I choose to follow the Hebrew torah.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 10, 2022 7:09:00 GMT -5
Book of Jubilees " For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before Him--the angels 2 of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, 3 and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, 4 and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, 5 and the angels of the voices 6 and of the thunder and of the lightning, 7 and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer, 8 and of all the spirits of His creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide (and night), and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of His heart. 3. And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day. " " R" So this is where you get the idea the angels were created on the first day of Creation. Nope – have never read this before – Gen 2:1-4 all the host of heaven were created on the Day God made heaven and earth (Day 1) Not surprising that the Book of Jubilees agrees with scripture
The Book of Jubilees is 220 pages long divided into 50 chapters – so kind and academically professional for you to post the chapter and verse so someone else can look at the context------------------------------------ And there were altogether two and twenty kinds. R" What only 22 kinds of animals families? not many?? The Book of Jubilees is 220 pages long divided into 50 chapters – so kind and academically professional for you to post the chapter and verse so someone else can look at the context Usually the 22 refer to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet that God used as the template to mold creation------------------------------- And after the completion of the seven years, which he had completed there, seven years exactly, and in the second month, on the seventeenth 8 A.M.day (of the month), the serpent came and approached the woman R" SO precise, so the serpent only waited seven years before convincing Eve to sin? Any discussion of time is useless / meaningless – time is not linearAccording to Ber. rabba xviii., Sanh. 38b, Adam was only six hours in the Garden; cf. Pirḳe de R. Eliezer xviii. (Adam entered the garden at the seventh hour and was driven forth at twilight, i. e. the twelfth hour on Friday the eve of the Sabbath). You claim something like 33 years – but you would never yield your referenceR" What so the Rabbi do not agree? And there is already a conflict? There is your ass – that pretends he doesn’t know that Jewish commentary always presented with 5 views – only arrogant Roman Christians claim ‘their view only’----------------------- I quote from Ellen White Ellen White is NOT scripture – 50 contradictions with scripture that you are unwilling to discussR" But sin originated in the first and closest and highest created creature of all created creatures, a cherub, that chose to sin. WHY DO YOU DENY SCRIPTUREScripture says – sin entered the world through Eve – Rom 5:12I note that Jews (except Rabbi Apple, whuch you refuse to support) have nothing to say of Ezekiel and the cherub that sinned. I pity the discourse Jews follow, wandering off the track. 1- The Jews do not need Ezk 28 as the creation story for the aarchon They already have Beelzedul and the shedim
2- The simile = They King of Tyre is like a cherub – but you claim the simile comes alive with a theology of its own It is a violation of how similes – parallelisms – and metaphors work - I asked you to show me another example where the simile is more important than its subject – or is different that its subjects – but all you have is this one verse Ezk 28
3- we have been over each and every occurrence of the satan – 23+49 verses In each of the 23+49 verses – satan was opposing man in the service of the lord----------------------- D"The Rabbis found the angel of death mentioned in Ps. lxxxix. 45 (A. V. 48), where the Targum translates: "There is no man who lives and, seeing the angel of death, can deliver his soul from his hand" (compare also Targ. to Job xviii. 13; Ps. xci. 5; Hab. iii. 5). Eccl. viii. 4 is thus explained in Midr. R. to the passage: "One may not escape the angel of death, nor say to him, 'Wait until I put my affairs in order,' or 'There is my son, my slave: take him in my stead.'" R" I cannot find anywhere in torah about an "Angel of death" , no such thing. Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
H3068 – יְהֹוָה - yehôvâhRoberts contradiction - either Jehovah Himself is the destroyer – the killer – the murderer Or God sends another to do the deed
2 Sam 24:1 - 1 Chr 21:1 is God satan - or is satan a servent of GodD"The angel of death occurs very frequently in rabbinical literature. R" The "Angel of death" appears no where in the torah. Somebody is making up stuff, and it is NOT the torah. Play your word games – and pretend ignorance – whatever it takes to keep your Ellen White teaching superior to scripture
(wiki) Destroying angel (Bible) In the Hebrew Bible, the destroying angel (Hebrew: מַלְאָך הַמַשְׁחִית, malʾāḵ hamašḥīṯ), also known as mashḥit (מַשְׁחִית mašḥīṯ, 'destroyer'; plural: מַשְׁחִיתִים, mašḥīṯīm, 'spoilers, ravagers'), is an entity sent out by YHWH on several occasions to kill the enemies of the Hebrews. These angels (mal'akh) are also variously referred to as memitim (מְמִיתִים, 'executioners, slayers')[citation needed], or Angel of the Lord. The latter is found in Job 33:22, as well as in Proverbs 16:14 in the plural, "messengers of death". Mashchith was also used as an alternate name for one of the seven compartments of Gehenna. In 2 Samuel 24:15-16, the destroying angel kills the inhabitants of Jerusalem. In I Chronicles 21:15, the same "Angel of the Lord" is seen by David to stand "between the earth and the heaven, with a drawn sword in his hand stretched out against Hebrews's enemies". Later, in II Kings 19:35, the angel kills 185,000 Assyrian soldiers. ------------------------------------ D"The angel of death, who is identified with Satan, immediately after his creation had a dispute with God as to the light of the Messiah (Pesiḳ. R. 161b). R" more made up stuff? WHY DO YOU DENY SCRIPTUREGen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water. Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness. D"Angels War and Protect Angels are involved in warfare and protection. They war with the angels of darkness who try to prevent ministering angels from performing their service to us. R" explain your angels of darkness? so these are created by God too? FOrced to function as angels of darkness? More made up stuff? WHY DO YOU DENY SCRIPTURERev 12:9 … the great dragon … the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. … ----------------------- D"YES – the CONTEST is all about MAN We have angel of death, angels of darkness, all doing what GOD commands, from force....angels have no free will....and this is called a contest for man, BEFORE man is even consisted as an idea, the only creature with free will.... More made up stuff. We have angel of death, angels of darkness, all doing what GOD commands, from forceCow are forced to be cows – because they were created to be cows – their role within creation Ants are forced to be ants – because they were created to be ants – their role within creation Mice are forced to be mice – because they were created to be mice – their role within creation The Beast is the Beast – it is who he is – who he was created to be – Entropy a necessary by-product / inherent to physical creation – ready to devour whatever comes from the womb of creation....angels have no free will....They have independent thought – but only within the limits of serving and praising Angels are forced to serve and praise because that is their role within creationThe Beast is the Beast – it is who he is – who he was created to be – Entropy a necessary by-product / inherent to physical creation – ready to devour whatever comes from the womb of creationSo what Dave is presenting here is the SHEDIM are angels forced to function as angels of darkness, even as an angel of death, (there are at least six types??) and this is where the SHEDIM come from, from GOD. Yet there sinning is not sinning, as they have no free will, they do bad things because GOD wants them that way.... Really Dave.... Yet there sinning is not sinning,In each of the 23+49 verses – satan was opposing man in the service of the lord But you refuse to answer why it is a sin to obey God1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. There is a verse that agrees with this, Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. FUnny that. Two verses declare the angels have free will, and the angels sin like humans sin. Look at how you force contradictions together to make your doctrine true Did your cherub sin from the beginning – or was he perfect in all his ways from the beginningDave denies this verse. Dave is amazed that you cannot see your own contradictions I guess we have to accept our differences. You choose to follow made up stuff by the Jews. I choose to follow the Hebrew torah. INCORRECT – you follow the writing of you own personal prophetess – Ellen White Yet – you refuse to defend her – or explain her writings - or able to answer questionsGood – now your turn to answer questions I have found. SDA are also the same, they do not like defending their faith either. It seems people are afraid to discuss matters with you.YES – WE HAVE NOTICED THIS – YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS You are afraid to answer – because your doctrine does not fit the bulk of scriptureIF – you say what happened in Gen 1:2 – SIN Then – all your sinning angels are locked away from mankind IF - you say what happened in Gen 1:2 is a SIN and the satans and devils remain Then God is wrong – he said His creation was tov Gen 1:31 And Jude 1:6 + 2 Peter 2:4 are also wrong Where are your answers to questions - got any? Evidently NOT! Conclusion / SummaryEither you accept that God is absolute sovereign – that God is greater than His creation – master of His creation – and everything that happens is all God’s design – God’s Plan – God’s Will – and therefore you can TRUST God and all His prophesies – you can TRUST God in His salvation Or – you believe in a weak god that lost control of his creation - because an angel recreated himself – changed his own created role within creation against God Will – then you insist your satan god changed all of God creation also against God’s Will – you teach that your satan god forces god to react and respond You even deny Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 as PROOF OF THE CREATOR You teach your satan god successfully killed god on the cross You teach that Jesus Christ was just a man SDA Ellen White Satanism is NOT Jewish in origin – it is 100% Roman Catholic All based on a false simile of Ezk 28
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2022 14:15:46 GMT -5
D"In the Hebrew Bible, the destroying angel (Hebrew: מַלְאָך הַמַשְׁחִית, malʾāḵ hamašḥīṯ), also known as mashḥit (מַשְׁחִית mašḥīṯ, 'destroyer'; plural: מַשְׁחִיתִים, mašḥīṯīm, 'spoilers, ravagers'), is an entity sent out by YHWH on several occasions to kill the enemies of the Hebrews.
R" study H7843 'destroyer' 136 verses in OT torah
Pr 6:32 [But] whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] doeth it destroyeth his own soul. {understanding: Heb. heart}
When a human sins, He destroys his own soul. (Severs the connection of the MEDIUM, that connects the human to GOD)
Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor? {were...: or, made himself ready}
The word destroyer is in the context of creating earth:
Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When Jesus-YHWH created the creation for earth, "I" was there also.
Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Here the "RUWACH" empowers when Jesus speaks, using the flow from the Father, so the creation for earth, was a community effort, but ONE member Jesus-YHWH, spoke.
The destroyer here is identified as the HS, the MEDIUM, that allows things to exist.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
D" The simile = They King of Tyre is like a cherub – but you claim the simile comes alive with a theology of its own It is a violation of how similes – parallelisms – and metaphors work - I asked you to show me another example where the simile is more important than its subject – or is different that its subjects – but all you have is this one verse Ezk 28
R" Dave wants a simile that becomes more important than it's subject. The subject here is "wolf" and "lamb" paralleled to "lion" and "ox", and this is parallel to "serpents bread", all these animals are similes of "mountain". These animals are similes of "destroyers" . Jer 2:30 In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.
"destroying lion" is interesting. In the context of "MEDIUM" we have this verse
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
God allows and controls the "lying spirit", the same word for ruwach.
1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him
If the function MEDIUM departs and a dysfunction MEDIUM comes over Saul, than GOD is the administrator of the MEDIUM, and the human chooses which BEING is using the medium, whether the medium for good, or the medium for sinning.
Choosing a medium for sinning becomes to the human, a destroyer, just as the similes above show, in the "destroying lion"
Jer 11:19 But I [was] like a lamb [or] an ox [that] is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, [saying], Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered. {the tree...: Heb. the stalk with his bread}
Here is a SIMILE which is greater than it's subject, according to the poetry here. Subject of the poem is "lamb" "ox" paralleled to "tree" and "fruit".
The destroyer destroys the "tree" from the "land of the living". Who is the SIMILE of the "tree", the "lamb" and the "ox"? Jesus is. And Jesus is a greater subject than the objects of the similes in this verse. Dave looks for excuses to ignore the Ezekiel 28 simile, because it is the only case of a simile where the simile is more important than it's subject. Scripture is full of similes, many of them complex, makes torah interesting.
Jer 51:1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; {midst: Heb. heart}
The verse that identifies the "destroyer" the "destroying RUWACH"
Jer 51:25 Behold, I [am] against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
"destroying mountain" Dave wants a simile more important than it's subject. The subject here is mountain. But the simile is more important to us than a mountain. The simile is "destroyer", the "destroying lion" the "destroying serpent", the "cherub that destroys the mountain of God"
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Here, the "mountain" again, is a SIMILE of a POWER, in this case GOD. Here we see the cherub that sins, is a destroying mountain. Da 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. {peace: or, prosperity}
The destroyer opposes the prince of princes (Jesus) and removes Jesus system of salvation. is a major theme in Daniel, proof the OPPOSER is really opposing Jesus and His salvation system.
Ho 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
GOD who administers His MEDIUM, does not wish to destroy any human
Ho 13:9 ¶ O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help. {is...: Heb. in thy help}
Humans destroys themselves, when they sin.
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D"In each of the 23+49 verses – satan was opposing man in the service of the lord R" only if you play your word game, and twist. I do not see it this way.
D"Play your word games – R" I do not play word games, I use sola scriptoria to teach me what the Hebrew word means.
Jews play word games, they invent terms like destroying angel, when the word "malak" does not even mean "cherub" it means "messenger".
D"These angels (mal'akh) are also variously referred to as memitim (מְמִיתִים, 'executioners, slayers')[citation needed], or Angel of the Lord. R" see.... the term "malak" means "Angel" ?
NO it doesn't.
It means "messenger", can be human messengers, YHWH messengers, and cherub messengers.
But NOT assume every time, an angel.
RP" angels have no free will.... D" They have independent thought – but only within the limits of serving and praising R" so now angels can choose, have intelligence to ask GOD "let us go down to earth" but as soon as they become sinning like the evil they try to prevent, they angels cannot repent and return back to GOD? Really Dave, all invented myths, this Jewish stuff is a fable. So now you say angels have free will but don't have free will.
Really Dave, back track, dribble, "maus water" definitions. D"Did your cherub sin from the beginning – or was he perfect in all his ways from the beginning R" He was both. He decided over a million years to allow his self exaltation to increase. D"Dave is amazed that you cannot see your own contradictions R" Prove to me that a sinless cherub is NOT allowed to make decisions to sin.
Your fable writings says the angels asked God if they could go down to earth.... proves what I say, intelligence can make decisions.
D"Where are your answers to questions - got any? Evidently NOT! R" I asked you, 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
1Jo 3:8 The HUMAN that committeth sin is of the SHEDIM; for the SHEDIM sinneth from the beginning.
1Jo 3:8 The HUMAN that committeth sin is of the SINNING ANGELS for the ANGELS sinneth from the beginning.
There is a verse that agrees with this, Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. FUnny that. Two verses declare the angels have free will, and the angels sin like humans sin.
Dave denies this verse. Angels have no free will. Archons have no free will.
So explain how the SHEDIM sin like HUMANS sin, Dave? No answer from you. Can't answer a simple Bible verse?
Same question from Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned, but in John, it's no simile.
It's plain and easy to read, and Dave has no answers.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 11, 2022 5:34:46 GMT -5
D"In the Hebrew Bible, the destroying angel (Hebrew: מַלְאָך הַמַשְׁחִית, malʾāḵ hamašḥīṯ), also known as mashḥit (מַשְׁחִית mašḥīṯ, 'destroyer'; plural: מַשְׁחִיתִים, mašḥīṯīm, 'spoilers, ravagers'), is an entity sent out by YHWH on several occasions to kill the enemies of the Hebrews. R" study H7843 'destroyer' 136 verses in OT torah Pr 6:32 [But] whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] doeth it destroyeth his own soul. {understanding: Heb. heart} When a human sins, He destroys his own soul. (Severs the connection of the MEDIUM, that connects the human to GOD) ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING When a man sins – he is committing spiritual suicide – his soul/spirit is on its way to the Lake of Fire When a man sins he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himself-------------------------------- Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor? {were...: or, made himself ready} The word destroyer is in the context of creating earth:Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When Jesus-YHWH created the creation for earth, "I" was there also. ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHINGGen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth. Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. TO - whatever she gave birth = Entropy = temporary = here today gone tomorrow – decay – spoilage It is a by-product of / inherent to physicality It is one of God’s basic Laws of Nature
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water. Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness. Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God so they might take care of her for 1,260 days. Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought, Rev 12:8 but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Anointed One, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters—the one who accuses them before our God day and night—has been thrown out. The accuser of our brothers and sisters – NOT THE OPPOSER OF GODRev 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives even in the face of death. Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you with great rage, knowing that his time is short. Time is short – Entropy – fleeting – temporary – here today one tomorrow – spoilage - decayRev 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he stalked the woman who had given birth to the male child. Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life. Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.” Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHINGThe HS is the breath of God – the Spirit of God – God at a distance – the Shekinah, the female aspect of God that comes among the people God spoke the word – and the breath of God carried the word throughout the distance – and the word became flesh All of it – all creation – made by God For God – Col 1:16 Everything that is – was created by God – John 1:3 For God own pleasure – purpose – Rev 4:11 The tov and the ra – Isa 45:5-7The destroyer here is identified as the HS, the MEDIUM, that allows things to exist.NOW YOU SUGGEST THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE BEAST OF REVELATIONYou suggest that The Spirit of God is the Beast of Revelation You suggest that the Shekinah (the female aspect of God) is the Beast of RevelationYOU ARE SICKHowever – the Beast was created by the female aspect of God (without her escorts consent) The Beast came from the LEFT HAND OF GOD – the hand of mystery and judgment The Beast came from the feminine aspect of God – the HS – the womb of everything God never said – “Let there be” - from the RIGHT HAND OF GOD – Christ the male aspect/image of God ------------------------- D" The simile = They King of Tyre is like a cherub – but you claim the simile comes alive with a theology of its own It is a violation of how similes – parallelisms – and metaphors work - I asked you to show me another example where the simile is more important than its subject – or is different that its subjects – but all you have is this one verse Ezk 28 R" Dave wants a simile that becomes more important than it's subject. Isa 65:25 The subject here is "wolf" and "lamb" paralleled to "lion" and "ox", and this is parallel to "serpents bread", all these animals are similes of "mountain". These animals are similes of "destroyers" . Here is a SIMILE which is greater than it's subject, according to the poetry here. Subject of the poem is "lamb" "ox" paralleled to "tree" and "fruit". Who is the SIMILE of the "tree", the "lamb" and the "ox"? Jesus is. And Jesus is a greater subject than the objects of the similes in this verse. THANK YOU FOR YOUR VALIDATIONThe wolf never became a separate being with its own theology The lamb never became a separate being with its own theology The ox never became a separate being with its own theology The tree never became a separate being with its own theology The fruit never became a separate being with its own theology Dave looks for excuses to ignore the Ezekiel 28 simile, because it is the only case of a simile where the simile is more important than it's subject. Scripture is full of similes, many of them complex, makes torah interesting.So – you admit it – you violate the language, grammar, synyax, and parallelism to keep your cherub a separate being with its own theology------------------------------------ Jer 51:1, Jer 51:25 , Eze 28:16 , Da 8:25 , Ho 11:9 GOD who administers His MEDIUM, does not wish to destroy any human Ho 13:9 ¶ O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help. {is...: Heb. in thy help} Humans destroys themselves, when they sin. REPEAT - When a human sins, He destroys his own soul. (Severs the connection of the MEDIUM, that connects the human to GOD)
ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING When a man sins – he is committing spiritual suicide – his soul/spirit is on its way to the Lake of Fire When a man sins he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himself---------------------- D"In each of the 23+49 verses – satan was opposing man in the service of the lord R" only if you play your word game, and twist. I do not see it this way. Correct - First your were frustrated that scriptre does not support your teaching All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, apart from Ezek, I have Rev 12. There was war in heaven? Then - you tried to make up a justification by saying - "amyone opposing man is opposing God' But when I asked you about the times God opposes man - is God your satan or opposing Himself You have NEVER given an answer------------------------ D"Play your word games – R" I do not play word games, I use sola scriptoria to teach me what the Hebrew word means. Jews play word games, they invent terms like destroying angel, when the word "malak" does not even mean "cherub" it means "messenger". D"These angels (mal'akh) are also variously referred to as memitim (מְמִיתִים, 'executioners, slayers')[citation needed], or Angel of the Lord. R" see.... the term "malak" means "Angel" ? NO it doesn't. It means "messenger", can be human messengers, YHWH messengers, and Beast messengers. YOU ARE NOT AN HONEST MAN – You say - Jude calls the ‘sinning angels’ – proof they are good angels of God that sinnedI argued that the term angelos = messenger - God has them – John had them – and the Beast has themTHE ONLY REAL QUESTION IS:Were you full of shit then Or are you full of shit now ------------------------------------- RP" angels have no free will.... D" They have independent thought – but only within the limits of serving and praising R” So now you say angels have free will but don't have free will. MOCK AWAY – FREE WILL IS THE CHOICE BETWEEN GOD AND WORLD Choosing to eat an apple or a peach – to be a plumber or a doctor – is NOT what scripture is discussing-------------------- D"Dave is amazed that you cannot see your own contradictions R" Prove to me that a sinless cherub is NOT allowed to make decisions to sin. THAT IS NOT THE QUESTIOND"Did your cherub sin from the beginning – or was he perfect in all his ways from the beginning R" He was both. HOW IS THIS NOT A CONTRADICTION?R" I asked you, 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. 1Jo 3:8 The HUMAN that committeth sin is of the SHEDIM; for the SHEDIM sinneth from the beginning. 1Jo 3:8 The HUMAN that committeth sin is of the SINNING ANGELS for the ANGELS sinneth from the beginning. There is a verse that agrees with this, Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. 1Jo3:8 says the Beast sinned against the entirety at the moment of creation Ezk 28 says the King of Tyre (man) was perfect from the beginning You peach a contradictionEze 28:12 .. thus says Adonai Elohim: ‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering—ruby, topaz and diamond, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and emerald—your settings and your sockets a workmanship of gold—in the day you were created they were prepared. Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cheruv. I placed you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among stones of fire. Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created,
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2022 15:20:38 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Shabbat
D"ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING When a man sins – he is committing spiritual suicide – his soul/spirit is on its way to the Lake of Fire When a man sins he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himself
R" Now who is playing word games?
Dave writes "When a man "misses" he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himself
"sin" is "chata" a Hebrew word meaning "to miss"
Question: - "Miss what?" having a relationship to God. OK, but missing what? missing a flow of God's power through your life, while you are missing God.
Now if you are missing something, arn't you opposing something also? When a person rises in pride and in a relationship with you, starts missing having you in their relationship, what happens?
The relationship of human to human fades, it goes away, less talking happens, anger feelings rise, one or both stop talking, feelings go cold. Dave suggests the human is disobeying the other human? Are their commands in a relationship? You MUST talk to me at all times. etc? I don't think so.
The directions of love and loving are NOT commands that you must obey or disobey, they are directions of attitudes, pathways for freedom, for God's power flow to flow into you and out of you as a complete circuit of love. Love is not commanded, but directed.
Dave thinks when a man is missing, he is only missing himself, opposing himself and disobeying himself?
Weird. What does Scripture say about missing?
Isa 1:8 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 21 ¶ How is the faithful city become an harlot!
First Scripture begins with free will, to reason, to talk together with GOD, the verse says. Missing begins with a human missing God. If fact missing only occurs when your missing God, it is impossible to be sinning while you have God positively and actively in your life that very minute while in faith, His faith flows because you remain abiding in God. Next if you are "willing" and "obedient" are poor KJV translations.
Jeff Benner says "shama" means to "hear" Jeff Benner says "abah" means to "??" Jeff does not investigate "strong home Behold the Person" a word meaning "Father" Strong's H14.
There are 53 verses using H14
Isa 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: This one is good context to explain H14.
H14, seems to mean "willing" Are you willing to have relationship to your heavenly Father?
I do not find any verses showing a Hebrew word that means to "obey or disobey", these are very strong meanings, as if God's love is forced upon you.
So the next verses say, are you willing to have the Father in heaven in relationship, to "hear" the Father speaking His words to you?
Verse 20, but ye are not willing and are destroyed by the sword, a SIMILE of the WORD.
Here is an interesting verse
Ps 119:86 All thy commandments <mitsvah> are faithful <'emuwnah>:
All the mitsvah are amanuah.
All the Father's words come to human in faith. Not as commands, but as promises of power, based on love. You speak the words of the Father and they are promised to flow into you.
But you have to be willing, to hear the words, and allow the promises to flow. If you are not willing to hear the words, than you are a harlot.
SO yes, when you are missing having those words flow into you, it is because you are in pride, opposing the words because you did not speak the words, and thus you are opposing God.
Dave what you say makes no sense to me, please explain your words carefully as I have done with many verses and sentences of discussion. --------------------
Rp" The word destroyer is in the context of creating earth:
Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When Jesus-YHWH created the creation for earth, "I" was there also.
D" ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING R" How can this be your teaching ?
, you follow the Jews who say the destroyer is some angel? Whereas this verse is saying the destroyer is a MEDIUM, a something administrated by the Father, termed the Holy Spirit, who allows somethings to happen. The medium is controlled by the SHADDAY, the divine "mother of elohiym" a "family elohiym power" something you disagree with me about, but I use Ephesians 3:15,16 for my verses for this, but there are many others as well. D"TO - whatever she gave birth = Entropy = temporary = here today gone tomorrow – decay – spoilage It is a by-product of / inherent to physicality It is one of God’s basic Laws of Nature R" Here is your Gnostic teaching speaking falsely about the MEDIUM. A medium cannot create on her own without her consort. Not possible. Mediums do not create, they are "somethings" that "carry the somethings", like space carrying light, like water carrying a sun beam, like air carrying sound waves. Like a spirit medium carrying a message to a human seeking to commune with the dead, something Scripture says we are NOT to do. But King Saul did.
D"TO - whatever she gave birth = Entropy
R" The HS cannot give birth to entropy.... what a contradiction of terms...
What does Scripture speak of this idea?
Ps 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. 12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. 13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors. 14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief shall return upon his own head,
The context of this passage is a sinning human.
And the result of sinning, guilt and sinning fruit is the idea of "yalad" "born" "sheqer" "falsehood".
109 verses use "sheqer" "falsehood".
Ex 5:9 ...vain words. Ex 20:16 ...false witness Ex 23:7 Keep thee far from a false words Ps 31:18 Let the lying lips Ps 109:2 ...with a lying tongue.
So as a result of sinning, our words from the Father stop, and we start a flowing our own words, that promise lies, vanity and powerlessness in our life.
And these words SELF are born in us, they become epi-genetic propensities. Ps 7:14
D"It is a by-product of / inherent to physicality R" No, according to Scripture, this comes from our own sinning.
D"It is one of God’s basic Laws of Nature R" No, it comes from our own sinning.
God cursed the ground when Adam sinned. Before Adam sinned all things in Creation was very functional, and entropy in any form is not functional.
D" Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; " R" Not possible, not allowed, no Bible verses on this, a MEDIUM never creates, it only responds to inputs given to it.
D"When he said this, he sinned against the entirety R" You ignore the Gnostic teachings that say you archon sinned. You deny your own teachings.
You also deny Scripture. 1 John 3:8 says the humans sin like the shedim sin.
D"The accuser of our brothers and sisters – NOT THE OPPOSER OF GOD R" talk about word games Dave. What the difference between accusing and opposing? nothing.
I quote Rabbi Davis "
Rev. 12:1-4 The woman referred to in these passages is Israel. Note: the twelve stars is a metaphor for the twelve tribes. The child (compare with Isaiah 66:7 and Ps. 2) being delivered is the Messiah. V. 4 refer to Hasatan (the Dragon) who was ready to devour her son (Yahshua) when he was born, but failed. Yahshua the second Adam defeated hasatan and legally won back humanity. The reference to 7 heads and ten horns is from Daniel 7:7, 24 that is the time of the rule of the anti-Messiah-Satan incarnate) The reference to the 1/3 part referred to is the fallen angels that followed Satan and were cast down to earth"
Note the words in the passage.
D"ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING The HS is the breath of God – the Spirit of God – God at a distance – the Shekinah, the female aspect of God that comes among the people God spoke the word – and the breath of God carried the word throughout the distance – and the word became flesh... R" Not so Dave, you contradict yourself.
D" Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; " How is this sentence of yours, the same as this sentence of yours "and the breath of God carried the word throughout the distance " totally different and contradictory.
Yes the MEDIUM carries the words spoken and using the power from the Father, the creative power flows.
But your Gnostic teachings teach that Pistis can create on her own, without her consort....
You flip flop, not consistent.
D"NOW YOU SUGGEST THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE BEAST OF REVELATION You suggest that The Spirit of God is the Beast of Revelation You suggest that the Shekinah (the female aspect of God) is the Beast of Revelation YOU ARE SICK R" I didn't say that. AN "RA RUWACH" that came over Saul after He sinned, the Ruwach left him. So who is this RA RUWACH? Cannot be the HS/medium. Must be another being using the medium. In 1 Kings 22, "I will be a lying spirit" another being comes to do this function, the HaSatan. ---------------
D" THANK YOU FOR YOUR VALIDATION The lamb never became a separate being with its own theology The ox never became a separate being with its own theology The tree never became a separate being with its own theology The fruit never became a separate being with its own theology So – you admit it – you violate the language, grammar, synyax, and parallelism to keep your cherub a separate being with its own theology R" you are weird Dave. You quote the subjects of the verse, not the similes. You wanted a simile that becomes greater than the subjects of the verse. But you quote the subjects. What is the simile of the lamb? What is the simile of the ox? What is the simile of the tree? What is the simile the fruit?
And WHOM is the simile about that is greater than the subjects in this verse? Jesus is, DUH.
But you did not comment about my discussion, only posts the subjects and added "you violate the language, grammar, synyax, and parallelism to keep your cherub a separate being with its own theology"
I do no such thing. Are you saying that Jesus is NOT a simile of the lamb, NOT a simile of the ox, NOT a simile of the tree? and NOT a simile of the fruits ?
D" - First your were frustrated that scriptre does not support your teaching Dave quotes RObert saying" Dec 28, 2019 at 8:33am robertt said: All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, R" I was frustrated because of your twisting contexts of the verse.
I give you TODAY one problem
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the "messenger of " LORD stood in the way as an OPPOSER against Balaam (on the ass on the road).
Question" Why is JESUS-YHWH, a messenger for His Father, opposing Balaam on the road?
Does Jesus oppose humans for humans sake? or does Jesus oppose sinning in the humans?
Nu 22:20 And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do
This verse tells you why ""messenger of " LORD stood in the way as an OPPOSER against Balaam " because Balaam did not want to speak God's words, so GOD was opposing the sinning in Balaam, even though Balaam was a false prophet, God still loved him.
Why do I say "satan" here is to "oppose" rather than to be an "adversary " ?
Because the context is about blocking the passage movement of the ass, not anything else, certainly not being an opponent to the human.
The human kicks the ass for not moving. The oppose opposes the motion of the ass.
Hence, "oppose/opposer" not the meaning of opponent/adversary.
God is not an adversary against the human, but merely wanting to block the flow of human words. And get the human to speak Gods words instead. So the word "satan" means to "oppose to flow" of .
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Both noun and verb forms in the same verse.
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the "messenger of LORD", and the OPPOSER standing at his right hand to OPPOSE him.
Question" WHAT is the OPPOSER opposing in this verse? Some flow is being opposed? Joshua the high priest is a clue. The flow of salvation. a flow of God's grace of those missing His flow, the flow flows despite the human sinnings.
But an OPPOSER opposes this flow of grace. Why?
Because He is a prosecutor? This is NOT a court room scene, but a temple scene, with a high priest.
Perhaps because the OPPOSES opposes the flow, because the opposer himself sins, and hates any humans that seeks to become sinless through faith in GOD. Is there any evidence the opposers loves to sin?
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
The Opposer sins like the humans sin. The opposer sinneth from the beginning. For this reason the Messenger of YHWH came to destroy the works of opposing by the opposer.
God finally showed me a verse Dave cannot answer.
D"But when I asked you about the times God opposes man - is God your satan or opposing Himself You have NEVER given an answer R" You have to stop making "OPPOSE/OPPOSER into "satan" it simply is a word that means a function to block the flow of something. I do not like how Christians make HaSatan into a word meaning on it's own. It simply means a CHERUB who opposes the flow. Just as GOD also opposes the flow. God opposes the flow of vain human words, the words of vanity we term sin. The cherub also opposes the flow. But Dave says when humans sin, they oppose themselves. Hmm? Humans do not have their own powers. Yes we have "self" but it still a RA power, God creates for us because we wish to sin, but really we must faithfully use His words, not our own human words. So what flow does the cherub oppose?
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
The opposer opposes salvation, the flow of GOD wanting to save sinning sinners our of the the fires of God's love. God's love is a consuming fire.
The opposer wants to oppose this flow.
Can the word be used as two opponents? Maybe, if we get back to adversary. But the context of God and Baalam on the road, the movement of the ass was being blocked, not the movement of the human sitting on the ass. Mute point I know.
If two opponents stand side by side, are they opposing anything? No, not until one opposes the flow of the other wishing to flow something.
God is wanting to save humans from the fires of love, this is a flow of salvation. and the opposer opposes this flow.
As a prosecutor? No. its a high priest in a temple, the holy place, between the holy place and the most holy place, not a court room scene.
Zec 3:8 ¶ Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Does the OPPOSER wish to oppose this flow? Yes
Because if Jesus comes to remove the "the iniquity of that land in one day" the kingdom of the sinning cherubims will end. Hence 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil
Jesus comes to destroy the opposing of the opposer.
That is the purpose of the day of atonment. To cleanse sin, and restore sinlessness to the people seeking the flow of GOD.
D"YOU ARE NOT AN HONEST MAN – You say - Jude calls the ‘sinning angels’ – proof they are good angels of God that sinned I argued that the term angelos = messenger - God has them – John had them – and the Beast has them THE ONLY REAL QUESTION IS: R" SINCE WHEN did I say Jude writes about sinning angels, such a term Jude never writes, only implied from context, not plainly written "sinning angels" ?
You make up stuff, misquote Jude and invent twisting words.
If you use the term "messengers" why do you support Jewish idea of the "angel of death" if such a term does not exist in Scripture? You are not honest to yourself.
DP" D"Did your cherub sin from the beginning – or was he perfect in all his ways from the beginning RP" He was both. D" HOW IS THIS NOT A CONTRADICTION? R" Explain please. A sinless creature with reasoning ability can choose to be missing the Father's powers flowing in his life. How is this a contradiction?
D"There is a verse that agrees with this, Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. 1Jo3:8 says the Beast sinned against the entirety at the moment of creation Ezk 28 says the King of Tyre (man) was perfect from the beginning You peach a contradiction
Eze 28:12 .. thus says Adonai Elohim: ‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering—ruby, topaz and diamond, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and emerald—your settings and your sockets a workmanship of gold—in the day you were created they were prepared. Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cheruv. I placed you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among stones of fire. Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, R" Why do you stop there?
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
You intentionally leave out a change in the cherub.
Why? free will minds can reason and change their thinking. God terms this idea "missing".
Shalom
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