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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2022 16:13:33 GMT -5
D" Why can’t you answer a direct question – if Feel Good God of tov loves all mankind why does Israel have to R" Because love is a provider and love is a responder, so God provides for a nation and allows them to respond for the whole of the world. Love functions this way, it is relation, community orientated.
A tomato that fails to share its fruit, dies.
God has called people to be a light from all walks and cultures, not just Israel.
D" Out of the Billions of people that have ever lived – or the millions that were alive during Abraham God only loved one?
R" In that part of the world, yes. All the others worshipped multiple gods of created things.
Is this strange to you, only 8 were saved in a global flood.
Only 4 saved in the Sodom experience and that dwindled down to 3
Only 2 walked in the promised land.
Do you think love is able to conquer self and sinning that easily? Broad is the way to eternal death and many walk that way, but narrow is the way of eternal life and few find it.
D"Why can’t you answer a direct question – if Feel Good God of tov loves all mankind why does Israel have to
R" I answered your question before? Are you dull? God sent Noah to China and the Chinese wrote of God for over a 1000 years. The Chinese were the largest and biggest supporter of God that has ever been, not just Israel. Israel is secondary in size, but also chosen by God as well. And before both of these Job was a large influence on the world, and he was a light to the world, hence why God declared him complete (perfect).
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 28, 2022 7:48:01 GMT -5
D" Why can’t you answer a direct question – if Feel Good God of tov loves all mankind why does Israel have to God has called people to be a light from all walks and cultures, not just Israel. NOT SCRIPTURAL – God introduced Himself to Israel – God’s chosen people
You keep saying your Feel Good God is a God of TOV only – your God is a God of Love and Mercy Why didn’t your God introduce Himself to all the nations – all the people – all the world
R" In that part of the world, yes. All the others worshipped multiple gods of created things. YES – this is the question to you – WHY WHY did God leave them all to ‘other gods’
Is this strange to you, only 8 were saved in a global flood. WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 8
Only 4 saved in the Sodom experience and that dwindled down to 3 WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 4 – I mean 3
Only 2 walked in the promised land. Out of the 2 million that stood at Sinai
I thought your god never causes hurt?
Do you think love is able to conquer self and sinning that easily? So – you teach the world and other gods stronger that your Feel Good God’s love
Broad is the way to eternal death and many walk that way, but narrow is the way of eternal life and few find it. So – your satan god prevented – stopped – didn’t allow your Feel Good God to introduce himself AND - you deny eternal life - LIFE does not LIVE
Your Feel Good God of Love made a tov world - but your satan god changed it all against God’s Will So your satan god is the STRONGER of the two?
Things are as they are because that is how God made things – end of story! THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD and he is ABSOLUTE
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2022 15:48:46 GMT -5
D" NOT SCRIPTURAL – God introduced Himself to Israel – God’s chosen people R" SO God never witnesses to the head hunters, the African tribes and CHinese people and the Inca tribes? Boy you have never heard of missionary stories have you?
D"Why didn’t your God introduce Himself to all the nations – all the people – all the world R" God did.... even in PNG there are gospel keeping tribes... long before the missionaries arrived.
D"WHY did God leave them all to ‘other gods’ R" their choice, God does not violate the free will to choose.
Question " Is sinning a free will choice that opposes God? Y/N?
D"WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 8 R" No, did not kill all, only 8 choose life, the others wanted death, what is sinning anyway? Its a probation time to exist, when in fact you cannot exist.... God allows you exist for a time...
D"WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 4 – I mean 3 R" God didn't kill them, they killed themselves, what do you think sinning is? A free ticket to living forever? No, sin is a state of non existence. Eternal nonexistence.
D" I thought your god never causes hurt? R" correct. God is not mocked a person reaps what they sow, if you sow sins you reap death. God does not cause your death, you do.
God is graceous to keep you alive while you sin.
That is a TOV GOD, if you sin you oppose God and thus face immediate non existence, but God is kind to give you probation time to cross over, but if you don't cross over, your death was caused by your self and your sinnings.
D"So – you teach the world and other gods stronger that your Feel Good God’s love R" sinning cannot exist in God's world, so a god of sinning also cannot exist. There is only one God and one choice, He way, the sinless way. Thou shalt have no opposing elohiiym power before my face, shows us what sinning is. SIn came once, it never comes a second time, hence the moral law was written for sins.
D"So – your satan god prevented – stopped – didn’t allow your Feel Good God to introduce himself R" God talks to wicked people all the time via the conscience, but Satan the sinning power opposes this by drowning out the voice with music, food and drugs. Duh
D" So your satan god is the STRONGER of the two? R" In a world of sinning, the sinning power is stronger than the loving power? Yes, going by the numbers saved. In a sinless world, only the sinless ones get to live. So its no contest. What happens when a sinless one runs into a sinning one on earth? The sinning one hate the sinless one, and try to kill them.
A sinning one would hate being in a sinless world anyway and long for death.
D" Things are as they are because that is how God made things R" No things are as they are because sin is to be played out. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 29, 2022 6:10:11 GMT -5
Question " Is sinning a free will choice that opposes God? Y/N? No – Repeat – Sin is disobeying God or transgressing His Commandments When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide
D"WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 8 R" No, did not kill all, only 8 choose life, the others wanted death D = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide
D"WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 4 – I mean 3 R" God didn't kill them, they killed themselves D = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide
D" I thought your god never causes hurt? R" correct. God is not mocked a person reaps what they sow, if you sow sins you reap death. God does not cause your death, you do. D = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide
God is graceous to keep you alive while you sin. YES – God’s love is unrequited – it is called GRACE
your death was caused by your self and your sinnings. D = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide ------------
R" sinning cannot exist in God's world, so a god of sinning also cannot exist. There is only one God and one choice, He way, the sinless way. Then why do you preach two gods locked in a cosmic struggle – The Great Controversy
D"So – your satan god prevented – stopped – didn’t allow your Feel Good God to introduce himself R" God talks to wicked people all the time via the conscience, Do BEAST have guilty consciousness’? – are do they only have (yester ra) SELF, Self-Preservation, and the survival of the species?
but Satan the sinning power opposes this by drowning out the voice with music, food and drugs. Duh I agree – the mission of the archon is to keep man sidetracked with world The Hypostasis of the Archons Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.
D"So – you teach the world and other gods stronger that your Feel Good God’s love D" So your satan god is the STRONGER of the two? R" In a world of sinning, the sinning power is stronger than the loving power? Yes NO CHRISTIAN or JEW would ever say satan is more powerful than God Your satan must be so pleased with you and your teaching So this is the teaching of Ellen White = 100% Blasphemy
So - in heaven God is locked in a cosmic struggel with your satan and on earth your satan is more powerful than God Your satan must be so pleased with you and your teaching So this is the teaching of Ellen White = 100% Blasphemy
What happens when a sinless one runs into a sinning one on earth? The sinning one hate the sinless one, and try to kill them. A sinning one would hate being in a sinless world anyway and long for death. The archon or your satan are not allowed to kill man – only torment
D" Things are as they are because that is how God made things R" No things are as they are because sin is to be played out. YEP – God’s Plan – God’s Will – 100% Gnostic
Authoritative Teaching And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world
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Post by Richard on Jun 29, 2022 10:15:23 GMT -5
Finally the truth comes out. Robert has gone from, two gods and two kings, to: D"So – you teach the world and other gods stronger that your Feel Good God’s love D" So your satan god is the STRONGER of the two? R" In a world of sinning, the sinning power is stronger than the loving power? YesNO CHRISTIAN or JEW would ever say satan is more powerful than GodYour satan must be so pleased with you and your teachingSo this is the teaching of Ellen White = 100% BlasphemySo - in heaven God is locked in a cosmic struggle with your satan and on earth your satan is more powerful than GodYour satan must be so pleased with you and your teachingSo this is the teaching of Ellen White = 100% Blasphemy Finally the truth comes out.For the longest time I thought you were just wasting your time, but finally the truth comes out.www.livescience.com/56341-where-did-satan-come-from.htmlThe devil goes by many names — Satan, the Prince of Darkness, Beelzebub and Lucifer to name a few — but besides this list of aliases, what do people really know about the brute? That is, how did the story of Satan originate? Many ancient religions have scriptures detailing the struggle between good and evil. For instance, in the Zoroastrian religion, one of the world's earliest, the supreme deity, Ormazd, created two entities: the chaotic and destructive spirit Ahriman and his beneficent twin brother, Spenta Mainyu,... "The ancient world struggled with the coexistence of good and evil," Weiss told Live Science. "They hypothesized a kind of demonic, divine force that was responsible for evil, arising out of the notion that a good god could not be responsible for bad things." However, Satan was not a prominent figure in Judaism. There are few demon-like figures in Hebrew scripture, but the most famous one appears in the Book of Job. In that book, an "adversary" or "tempter" asks God whether the prosperous man Job would continue to praise God after losing everything. God takes up the challenge, and strips Job of his wealth and family, leaving the man wondering why such a horrible fate befell him. But in this story, God wields more power than this adversary; as such, this evil tempter challenges God, who then takes away Job's fortune, Weiss said. "[Judaism] found the notion of God having to share authority as limiting the omnipotence and even the omniscience of God," Weiss said. "And therefore, Satan was never personified as a source of evil that was equally powerful." Christianity's devil Any Sunday school student can tell you that Satan is a fallen angel, but this fall actually isn't described in the New Testament, or the Christian bible, ...
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Post by Dave on Jun 29, 2022 12:49:16 GMT -5
Christianity's devil Any Sunday school student can tell you that Satan is a fallen angel, but this fall actually isn't described in the New Testament, or the Christian bible, ...---------------- Christianity's devil was invented by the Catholic Church to scare the population into the church Catholic satan doctrine comes from a novel written by Dante
Appropriately - it was called The Divine Comedy | |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2022 15:57:42 GMT -5
RP" Explain to me why sinning is not evidence of free will? Question " Is sinning a free will choice that opposes God? Y/N? D"No – Repeat – Sin is disobeying God or transgressing His Commandments When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide R" What word games you play,
So disobeying is not opposing? I think they are the same behaviour? You are so weird/
D" you are committing spiritual suicide R" And spiritual suicide is not opposing? I think they are the same behaviour? You are so weird/
D"Then why do you preach two gods locked in a cosmic struggle – The Great Controversy R" because this is the first time free will was exercised, so the kind God had to let other sinless creatures know the full extent of the free will that chooses to oppose God. It will never happen again. If you choose to oppose God as a sinless being in heaven, using free will, you will immediately cease to exist.
D"Do BEAST have guilty consciousness’?
Rob quotes" "and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety"
From this quote, yes the archons do have free will to sin, and are therefore guilty of their sins, and locked in judgement for that sinning. D" Gen 6 Archon are held in chains – Jude and Enoch + NHL These sinning ‘angels’ are to be released again in Rev 9 – to sting man for 5 months
R" I quote your words, and you agree, sinning angels held in judgement, because they sinned. Chose to sin, makes them sinners. Using the free will to oppose God.
You just agree and disagree, twist and mock.
D"NO CHRISTIAN or JEW would ever say satan is more powerful than God R" depends what you mean by power? Does GOD force the human free will to love Him? No
Does the Opposer force the human free will to worship him? "Yes, sort of"
even using epigenetics to make it near impossible to serve no other, unless the wicked one calls upon God's MORE POWERFUL NAME. D" The archon or your satan are not allowed to kill man – only torment R" Baloney. Look at Job's children, who murdered the children, the humans who were influenced by the shedim, and the chief shedim, the Opposer has power to do so. Where do you think death comes from? God is naturally living.
The shedim is naturally dying. Death comes from the opposer.
Re 12:4 ...the dragon stood before the ..to devour her child as soon as it was born. So this verse is not about the death of the baby? Right?
Re 13:2 ...the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Something wrong with your understanding of the verses?
RIchard says " However, Satan was not a prominent figure in Judaism. There are few demon-like figures in Hebrew scripture, but the most famous one appears in the Book of Job. In that book, an "adversary" or "tempter" asks God whether the prosperous man Job would continue to praise God after losing everything. God takes up the challenge, and strips Job of his wealth and family, leaving the man wondering why such a horrible fate befell him"
Rob replies" Why did the more powerful God take up the challenge Richard? After all GOD knew Job would not sin, BUT the little opposing creature didn't know this.
Sure GOD has ultimate authority and power, but GOD cannot force the free will of choice. However the opposing power has much more influence to damage the free will of man.
Music, drugs, alcohol, sex, movies, games, worldly pleasures, are much more powerful in damaging the free will than we like, but the wicked one rarely seeks to call on the MORE powerful NAME and be SAVED. Richard " For the longest time I thought you were just wasting your time, but finally the truth comes out. D" and on earth your satan is more powerful than God
R" I never said these things, you mock and misquote. If you go by numbers, sinning is more popular. If you go by power, only God is more powerful. There is a promise
"1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." This promise says GOD is more powerful than the OPPOSER, and thus by simply speaking the Name in faith, GOD can rescue you from the OPPOSER.
Richard asks " That is, how did the story of Satan originate? Rob replies, the answer is in the First of ten commandment law
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
No other opposing elohiym power before my face.
So obviously an opposing power exists....this law existed before man existed, and was around when Sabbath was around.... go figure this one....
Richard " However, Satan was not a prominent figure in Judaism. R" I wonder why? Moses wrote about an opposing elohiym power, in Genesis, the Ancient CHinese call it the devil. Richard" Any Sunday school student can tell you that Satan is a fallen angel, but this fall actually isn't described in the New Testament, or the Christian bible, . Rob replies" You don't read Scripture well?
Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. "fall from heaven" "fallen cherub" See Ez 28.
DAVE "Christianity's devil was invented by the Catholic Church to scare the population into the church R" popular pictures yes, pitchfork, eternal fires, yes.
The idea of an opposing elohiym power is written in the Ten Commandments, about the same time as the Sabbath commandment was written for Sabbaths. Long before man even existed. So you are both wrong.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 29, 2022 17:41:52 GMT -5
Question " Is sinning a free will choice that opposes God? Y/N? D"No – Repeat – Sin is disobeying God or transgressing His Commandments When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicideR" What word games you play, Question " Is sinning a free will choice that opposes God? Y/N?No – Repeat – Sin is disobeying God or transgressing His Commandments When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide D"WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 8 R" No, did not kill all, only 8 choose life, the others wanted deathD = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicideD"WOW – some God of Love and Mercy only – killed all but 4 – I mean 3 R" God didn't kill them, they killed themselvesD = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicideD" I thought your god never causes hurt? R" correct. God is not mocked a person reaps what they sow, if you sow sins you reap death. God does not cause your death, you do.D = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicideGod is graceous to keep you alive while you sin.YES – God’s love is unrequited – it is called GRACEyour death was caused by your self and your sinnings.D = When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicide Richard " For the longest time I thought you were just wasting your time, You agree when it fits your doctrine – and you disagree when it doesn’t You do not present a consistent argument – you just oppose whatever is saidSo disobeying is not opposing? I think they are the same behaviour? You are so weird/I’ll teach the boss – I’ll just be unemployed – that harms the boss how? Eventually when you run out of money and opportunities – you just feel stupid – because you choose to disobey D"Then why do you preach two gods locked in a cosmic struggle – The Great Controversy R" because this is the first time free will was exercised, so the kind God had to let other sinless creatures know the full extent of the free will that chooses to oppose God. Why do you deny the New Testament – Gospel?Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. D"Do BEAST have guilty consciousness’? Rob quotes" "and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". This is SELF - only thinking of self = (yester ra) a Jewish concept you refuse to acknowledge The mindset of every BEAST, Fish, or Fowl made of matter Go forth – be fruitful and multiply – The first commandment by GodRobert claims this is sinningWhen he said this, he sinned against the entirety"Against the entirety – to stand up and declare that you are the only one From this quote, yes the archons do have free will to sin,From this quote – the Beast is just a Beast like all the beastD" Gen 6 Archon are held in chains – Jude and Enoch + NHL These sinning ‘angels’ are to be released again in Rev 9 – to sting man for 5 months R" I quote your words, and you agree, sinning angels held in judgement, because they sinned. Chose to sin, makes them sinners. Using the free will to oppose God. The archon took on more of a human form and were able to (yester ra) with womenCorrect – finally you agreeTheir sin was NOT to reproduce after their own kind – the only other commandment for Beast by God 200 - or so – of manyD"NO CHRISTIAN or JEW would ever say satan is more powerful than God R" depends what you mean by power? Does GOD force the human free will to love Him? No NO IT DOES NOT - DEPEND No one compares to the One True God – in any way – in any form – in any fashion Absolutely ridicules This promise says GOD is more powerful than the OPPOSER, and thus by simply speaking the Name in faith, GOD can rescue you from the OPPOSER. You do not preach a consistant doctrineDoes the Opposer force the human free will to worship him? "Yes, sort of"Caesar forced men to worship him The archon tempt you to worship them – the choice of ignorance is always yoursD" The archon or your satan are not allowed to kill man – only torment R" Baloney. Look at Job's children, who murdered the children, the humans CORRECT - man did itwho were influenced by the shedim, and the chief shedim, YES - tempted – suggested – influenced – even dared You are a pussy if you do not go kick someone’s ass – it is the code of the gangsWhere do you think death comes from? God is naturally living.REPEAT - Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT – GOSPEL?Re 12:4 ...the dragon stood before the ..to devour her child as soon as it was born. So this verse is not about the death of the baby? Right? It is about all creation on all levels of creation - AgreedRe 13:2 ...the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.Rev 13:1 Then I saw a beast rising out of the sea, that had ten horns and seven heads. On his horns were ten royal crowns, and upon his heads were slanderous names. Rev 13:2 Now the beast that I saw was like a leopard, his feet like a lion’s, and his mouth like a bear’s. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. Rev 13:3 One of his heads seemed to have been slain, but the fatal wound was healed. The whole earth was amazed and followed the beast. Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon, because he had given authority to the beast. They also worshiped the beast, chanting, “Who is like the beast, and who can make war against him?” Who says – there is no god but Allah – and who can make war against him?
Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
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Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. YES – Christian MartyrsRev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years. First Fruits – in heaven serving the Lord before the First ResurrectionRev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. If you go by numbers, sinning is more popular. If you go by power, only God is more powerful. There is a promiseTheology is not a popularity contest – of course the World is seductive to the worldly - duhWe are talking about the Creator in heaven – who loved you enough to come to earth as a man and die as a man – so that you could avoid the Lake of FireAll you want to talk about is the world and things of this world
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2022 16:51:10 GMT -5
RP" Question " Is sinning a free will choice that opposes God? Y/N?D" No – Repeat – Sin is disobeying God or transgressing His Commandments When you sin – you are not opposing God – you are committing spiritual suicideR" Sin is disobeying God this is same as as opposing God? Transgressing His Commandments Same thing as opposing God? Committing spiritual suicide is the opposite of committing spiritual living, hence you are opposing God. What do you think opposing means> Duh? Please explain you weird notions ? Maybe get Richard to answer the question? I quote " Sin often harms another person, but, ultimately, all sin is against God. The Bible contains many references to people admitting, "I have sinned against God" (Exodus 10:16; Joshua 7:20; Judges 10:10). Genesis 39:9 gives us a closer look at this. Joseph was being tempted to commit adultery with Potiphar’s wife. In resisting her, he said, "My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?" It is interesting that Joseph did not say that his sin would be against Potiphar. This isn’t to say that Potiphar would be unaffected. But Joseph’s greater loyalty was to God and His laws. It was God he did not want to offend. We also know intuitively when we have sinned. Sin is a perversion of God’s perfect design. We all bear the very image of God Himself, and when we sin, we mar that likeness. We were created to be mirrors of the glory of God (Ephesians 2:10; 4:24; Hebrews 2:7). Sin is a big smudge on the mirror, and it diminishes the beauty and holiness we were designed to reflect. When we sin, we step outside the purpose for which we were created, thus violating God’s moral law, and we are accountable to Him for the trespass. Romans 3:23 says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Sin is anything that falls short of God’s plan. So, whether it harms us or someone else, every sin is ultimately against a holy God.1Sa 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them. Interesting verse? seekgrowlove.com/2019/02/16/are-you-opposing-god-0r-facing-opposition-for-him/Are You Opposing God – 0R – Facing Opposition for Him Again we see the religious leaders take offense and try to squash any threat to their power and authority. As they stood up to dispute Stephen they quickly realized they could not outsmart or outwit him. So, as with Jesus, when they were unable to come up with a way to take him out on merit they made something up. They lied – and created a plan with multiple witnesses aligned with a fictional story to take out their problem. And like Jesus – he was put to death. They raised up stones to kill him and also like Jesus he asks for their forgiveness. Wow – to stand in the face of opposition and talk with conviction. If we are not facing opposition, maybe people do not know where we stand. In John 16:33, Jesus tells us we will face trials, trouble, opposition, suffering, sorrows, tribulations (depending on your translation). Not a maybe or some will – instead a certainty that we will all face. As we make a stand for what is right we prepare for opposition knowing we can have peace while dealing with it because the verse doesn’t end there. It continues to say “Take heart, for I have overcome the world”.biblehub.com/sermons/auth/parker/opposing_god_useless.htmProverbs 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered. The uselessness of opposing God must be manifest from every point of view. God is omniscient, and knows all things; is almighty, and can do all things; is omnipresent, and is everywhere: so that no device or counsel or plot can succeed against Him38 Bible Verses about God Opposing Source: bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-OpposingJames 4:6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “ God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” BINGO!! 1 Samuel 12:15 If you will not listen to the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the command of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers. BINGO!! Ezekiel 14:9 “But if the prophet is prevailed upon to speak a word, it is I, the Lord, who have prevailed upon that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel. BINGO!! Psalm 34:16 The face of the Lord is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth. BINGO!! 1 Peter 3:12 “For the eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, And His ears attend to their prayer, But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” Leviticus 26:24 then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. Jeremiah 51:25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys the whole earth,” declares the Lord, “And I will stretch out My hand against you, And roll you down from the crags, And I will make you a burnt out mountain. Who does this destroying mountain represent? 2Ki 23:13 And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile. Obviously the powers of the shedim, the opposing elohiym powers that faced mankind from the beginning of Creation, the serpent being the chief? --------------------------- D" You agree when it fits your doctrine – and you disagree when it doesn’tR" Give me one example of this dribble I am mocked to have written? D: You do not present a consistent argument – you just oppose whatever is saidR" Give me one example of an inconsistent argument I am mocked to have written? Discuss, there is so much to twist? D" I’ll teach the boss – I’ll just be unemployed – that harms the boss how?R" You forget one thing, your boss never loves you, and God loves you all the time, but hates your sinning. Stop making silly comparisons... You write one pithy discussion? D" Why do you deny the New Testament – Gospel?
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned.R" It doesn't say chata entered the world it says chataah entered the world. Death through chataah, or sin-offering. Why did God allow a sheep to be killed when Adam sinned the very first time? Because mischief happened.... ANd the penalty for mischief is life for life. ANd that means the mischief maker life must die, The future children of the womb also die And any divine Saviour has to swap eternal death for eternal living, quite a infinite sacrifice. I have a Bible verse for this sin-offering process.... you twist and allow fuzzy translations to confuse. If man was the first sinning creature ever, why did God allow a sheep to symbolize death, and why did Jesus have to die, you asked the question and never answered it.... I liked your website for the question, but you never answered the question. What you don't understand if mischief maker makes us sin, than the mischief maker has spoiled the DNA of the womb forever, hence why we are born condemned biologically speaking... and why Jesus came to die to restore our bodies as well as satisfy the law. But you don't even have a universal law to be obeyed do you? DO you follow the torah at all? D" Go forth – be fruitful and multiply – The first commandment by God Robert claims this is sinning
When he said this, he sinned against the entirety" Against the entirety – to stand up and declare that you are the only oneR" Dave can't you read, are you blind? I see the word "sinned" there and Dave sees " Go forth – be fruitful and multiply – The first commandment by God"Rob sees the word "sinned" there and Dave sees " to stand up and declare that you are the only one"
I pity your poor reading ability and comprehension skills. You can twist a word like "sin" into meaning anything you like. D" From this quote – the Beast is just a Beast like all the beastR" So the beast " sinned against the entirety" means nothing to you, it didn't sin....? Rp : This promise says GOD is more powerful than the OPPOSER, and thus by simply speaking the Name in faith, GOD can rescue you from the OPPOSER.D" You do not preach a consistant doctrineR" Maybe you should back up and rethink what I am saying? I am clear, but you are not. D" Caesar forced men to worship him The archon tempt you to worship them –R" Pathetic you are Dave, stubborn even Re 13:2 ....and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And the archons gave the Roman governments his power, and his seat, and great authority. Can't you read my posts on the verses I post and put two and two together? Rome acted in the way the archon powers wanted, so man was forced to worship Rome, thus worship the dragon as well. The archons had a department to do their dirty work of killing...duh. D" CORRECT - man did itR" Re 13:2 ....and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority SO the dragon never kills any humans, he has a department of humans to kill other humans, and this makes it all OK to Dave? D" YES – Christian MartyrsR" But not caused by the opposing elohiym power? Only humans did this? D" Theology is not a popularity contest – of course the World is seductive to the worldly - duhR" well in that case saving 2 out of 3 million is fine, saving 8 out of several billion is fine saving 144,000 our of countless billions of fine, And all this shows God is more powerful than the opposing elohiym powers God opposes. D" We are talking about the Creator in heaven – who loved you enough to come to earth as a man and die as a man – so that you could avoid the Lake of FireR" wow, a verse and thought Dave knows.... Which law says Jesus must die ? You didn't find that did you?
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Post by Dave on Jun 30, 2022 18:12:53 GMT -5
biblehub.com/sermons/auth/parker/opposing_god_useless.htm Proverbs 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered. the wicked shall not be unpunishedWHAT – you die – you sleep in a restful peacefull sleep – to wake up and die One punishment for everyone – contradictory to scripture Why do you deny the New Testament and then call yourself a Christian?2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad. The uselessness of opposing God must be manifest from every point of view. YES - ABSOLUTELY AGREE – your presentation of satan is uselessGod is omniscient, and knows all things; is almighty, and can do all things; is omnipresent, and is everywhere: so that no device or counsel or plot can succeed against HimYES - ABSOLUTELY AGREE – your presentation of the Great Controversy is useless------------ 38 Bible Verses about God Opposing Source: bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Opposing Bingo 38 verses about the Lord being the opposerJames 4:6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” God is the opposer - BINGO!!1 Samuel 12:15 If you will not listen to the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the command of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers. rebel against the command of the Lord, = disobey God or transgress His Commandment the Lord will be against you = BINGO!!Ezekiel 14:9 “But if the prophet is prevailed upon to speak a word, it is I, the Lord, who have prevailed upon that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel. The Lord is the destroyer - BINGO!!Psalm 34:16 The face of the Lord is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth. Who is cutting them off = BINGO!!1 Peter 3:12 “For the eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, And His ears attend to their prayer, But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” the Lord is against = the Lord is the opposerLeviticus 26:24 then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. Who is doing the striking = BINGO!!Jeremiah 51:25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys the whole earth,” declares the Lord, “And I will stretch out My hand against you, And roll you down from the crags, And I will make you a burnt out mountain. Who does this destroying mountain represent?DUH ROBERT SERIOUSLY - YOU ASK THIS OF MERev 12:9 And the great dragon … the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world.
Bingo 38 verses about the Lord being the opposerObviously your understanding of this word / concept / teachis is error I thought your satan was the opposerYou preach such a controdictory doctrine - we know you are not serious --------------- 2Ki 23:13 And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile. Obviously the powers of the shedim, the opposing elohiym powers that faced mankind from the beginning of Creation, the serpent being the chief? YES – Absolutely Agree – FINALLY YOU SEE THE LIGHTObviously the powers of the shedim, the opposing elohiym powers that faced mankind the serpent being the chiefAs put in place by God – Gen 3:13-20 As put in place by God as described in the Gnostic Contest Absolutely opposite of two opposing gods in an eternal cosmic struggle--------------------------- D" Why do you deny the New Testament – Gospel? Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. R" It doesn't say chata entered the world it says chataah entered the world.Death through chataah, or sin-offering.TOTALLY REJECT YOUR WORD GAMEThe word is - G266 - ἁμαρτία – hamartia - From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful). Total KJV occurrences: 174 G264 - ἁμαρτάνω - hamartanō - Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass. Death through chataah, or sin-offering.TOTALLY REJECT YOUR WORD GAMEjewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13764-sin-offeringThe sin-offering proper is a sacrifice consisting of either a beast or a fowl and offered on the altar to atone for a sin committed unwittingly. NO ONE IS MAKING A SACRIFICE FOR SIN – one man committed a sin – as all men commit sinsWhat you don't understand if mischief maker makes us sin, The serpent DID NOT MAKE EVE SIN – all he did was deceive – suggest – tempt – dared evenSTOP BLAMING your satan for your own choices STAND UP – REPENT - Psa 51:19 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and a contrite heart, Re 13:2 ....and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And the archons gave the Roman governments his power, and his seat, and great authority. Can't you read my posts on the verses I post and put two and two together? I agree with your statement – the archon usurped the First Century Messianic Christianity was replaced with Roman Catholicism Rome acted in the way the archon powers wanted, so man was forced to worship Rome, thus worship the dragon as well. I agree with your statement – the archon usurped the First Century Messianic Christianity was replaced with Roman CatholicismYET – you promote Roman Catholic doctrine as Gospel
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2022 0:48:25 GMT -5
D" One punishment for everyone – contradictory to scriptureR" Don't you read my earlier posts? Don't you remember what you read about my view, each is rewarded as his works, Scripture says?
Some die in the flames in seconds, some minutes and finally the Opposer takes the longest to die, from which there is no return or memory of the lost. D" YES - ABSOLUTELY AGREE – your presentation of the Great Controversy is uselessR" Yes I agree the the Great Controversy is useless, but contrary to your stubbornness the royal law, the ten commandments, universal laws of God, that God must obey Himself, says "You cannot have other opposing elohiym powers before my face" Exodus 20:1 So these opposing powers do exist, and contrary to your stubborn twist of words, any creature who by definition sins, is opposing God, and all the nature about God. Disobey, rebel, transgress laws, hate not love, are all saying the same thing, you are opposing God, and no longer wanting to hold His hands in love. D" Who does this destroying mountain represent? DUH ROBERT SERIOUSLY - YOU ASK THIS OF ME Rev 12:9 And the great dragon … the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world.
Bingo 38 verses about the Lord being the opposer Obviously your understanding of this word / concept / teachis is error I thought your satan was the opposer You preach such a controdictory doctrine - we know you are not seriousR" Look how twisted you have become? You agree the destroying mountain is the dragon. So if God is opposing the opposing power, that makes God an opposer, yes, but not THE opposer. You forget and you twist. Why is God an opposer of the opposer? Because the opposer loves to sin, hates love, and therefore hates GOD with a passion. That is why He is called " hey-satan" " THE opposer" and God is sometimes termed " an opposer" of anybody who sins. DO you agree the dragon is an opposing power? SInce you agree the LORD will destroy the destroying mountain, the dragon, you agree the dragon is opposing God. D" YES – Absolutely Agree – FINALLY YOU SEE THE LIGHT Obviously the powers of the shedim, the opposing elohiym powers that faced mankind the serpent being the chiefR" how and now you agree Next post you will disagree. So God has an opposing power before His face, Exod 20:1. Why is this power opposing God making God an opposer to THE opposing power? Because it sins, and loves to sin continually. D" As put in place by God – Gen 3:13-20 As put in place by God as described in the Gnostic Contest
Absolutely opposite of two opposing gods in an eternal cosmic struggleR" OH, because the war in heaven lasted 6 seconds, and God put the opposing elohiym power in it's place, the great controversy doesn't it in heaven, as God is absolute in power, and on earth the opposing elohiym power is used to test/tempt man to sin? Question: Did the opposing power sin in the first place? Gnostic writings say yes Ezekiel 28 says yes but Dave says no Funny how you don't read your own Bibles you like to twist? D" Death through chataah, or sin-offering. TOTALLY REJECT YOUR WORD GAMERob" OK try to render the meaning of chataah in the LXX please for me? Exodus 29:14 LXX τὰ δὲ κρέα τοῦ μόσχου καὶ τὸ δέρμα καὶ τὴν κόπρον κατακαύσεις πυρὶ ἔξω τῆς παρεμβολῆς ἁμαρτίας γάρ ἐστιν Romans 5:12 dia touto wsper di enoV anqrwpou h amartia eiV ton kosmon eishlqen kai dia thV amartiaV o qanatoV kai outwV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV o qanatoV dihlqen ej w panteV hmarton (TR) What Greek word does the Hebrew word chataah end up as ? hamartia or hamartano ? Serious enough question, can you help me out? D" NO ONE IS MAKING A SACRIFICE FOR SIN – one man committed a sin – as all men commit sinsR" DOn't you understand what sin-offering means? DOn't Jews understand this term? D" I agree with your statement – the archon usurped the First Century Messianic Christianity was replaced with Roman CatholicismR" I agree with this too we agree on something In fact Roman edit is archon inspired, using your view.D" YET – you promote Roman Catholic doctrine as GospelR" No I promote the Ezek 28 inspired writings. Not all Jews understand their writings.... Seems like they do not understand chataah, the sin-offering. They have forbidden verses they cannot, like in Daniel and Isiah 53. So any wonder, they miss much. They do not understand amanuah either. Jewish writings do not explain where the shedim came from, but the Ezekiel 28 explains it. Sadly many verses in the Hebrew Jews do not read correctly. You claim I follow Roman Edit. Well you have life after death, and so do the Roman Catholics, they say the spirit of the man never dies and lives in heaven. I don't support this idea at all. You are following a Roman Edit idea. Funny how you pick on me. Catholics also have a punishing place for spirits too. Another Roman edit you also follow. You also follow the Roman edit trinity too. But hey I liked this post because we both agreed on something.... that is nice....enjoy your day... Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 1, 2022 20:30:40 GMT -5
D" One punishment for everyone – contradictory to scripture R" Don't you read my earlier posts? Don't you remember what you read about my view, each is rewarded as his works, Scripture says? MORE CONTRODICTION – proportional reward – but not punishment Why do you deny the New testament Why do you deny Jewish theology
D"YES - ABSOLUTELY AGREE – your presentation of the Great Controversy is useless R" Yes I agree the the Great Controversy is useless, Finally you admit – the teaching of Ellen White is errorBingo 38 verses about the Lord being the opposer Obviously your understanding of this word / concept / teachis is error I thought your satan was the opposer You preach such a contradictory doctrine - we know you are not serious R" Look how twisted you have become?You posted 38 verse about the Lord being satan – your definition I thought your satan was the opposer You preach such a contradictory doctrine - we know you are not serious DO you agree the dragon is an opposing power?Opposes man - AgreedD" YES – Absolutely Agree – FINALLY YOU SEE THE LIGHT Obviously the powers of the shedim, the opposing elohiym powers that faced mankindthe serpent being the chief R" how and now you agree I have always taught that the archon oppose manD" Death through chataah, or sin-offering. TOTALLY REJECT YOUR WORD GAME Rob" OK try to render the meaning of chataah in the LXX please for me? We are discussing the New Testament – Roman 5:12 LXX – only one occurrence = Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. We know the word means a sacrifice because of context – not spellingH2401 – חֲטָאָה - chăṭâ'âh - Feminine of H2399; an offence, or a sacrifice for it: G4376 – προσφορά – prosphora - From G4374; presentation; concretely an oblation (bloodless) or sacrifice: - offering (up). G3646 - ὁλοκαύτωμα - holokautōma - From a derivative of a compound of G3650 and a derivative of G2545; a wholly consumed sacrifice (“holocaust”): - (whole) burnt offering. Exo 29:14 and the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, thou dost burn with fire at the outside of the camp; it is a sin-offering. H2403 – חַטָּאת - chaṭṭâ'âh - From H2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, Exo 29:14 τὰ δὲ κρέα τοῦ μόσχου καὶ τὸ δέρμα καὶ τὴν κόπρον κατακαύσεις πυρὶ ἔξω τῆς παρεμβολῆς· ἁμαρτίας γάρ ἐστιν. A +B + C you will burn with fire – (ἁμαρτίας γάρ ἐστιν) = for your sin (G266)
Rom 5:12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι᾿ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν, ἐφ᾿ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον· What Greek word does the Hebrew word chataah end up as ? hamartia or hamartano ? Serious enough question, can you help me out?G266 - ἁμαρτία - From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful).D"NO ONE IS MAKING A SACRIFICE FOR SIN – one man committed a sin – as all men commit sins R" DOn't you understand what sin-offering means? DOn't Jews understand this term?Correct this is your only defense – the Jews do not understand their own language –culture – or theology But you have great respect for the Jews you sayD"I agree with your statement – the archon usurped the First Century Messianic Christianity was replaced with Roman Catholicism R" I agree with this too we agree on something In fact Roman edit is archon inspired, using your view. D"YET – you promote Roman Catholic doctrine as Gospel R" No I promote the Ezk 28 inspired writings.You have not given me one pre-roman evidence of your Ezk 28 satan doctrine It began with the Catholic church fathers - not before Not all Jews understand their writings.... Correct this is your only defense – the Jews do not understand their own language –culture – or theologySeems like they do not understand chataah, the sin-offering.You refuse to even look at the concept of KORBATS Therefore – you do not understand what you criticize – you just criticize They do not understand amanuah either.I posted a Jewish sermon on the word – why didn’t you correct the sermon – you didn’t even point out one error in the sermon Therefore – you do not understand what you criticize – you just criticizeJewish writings do not explain where the shedim came from,King Solomon said – Belzeebul is the offspring of an ARCH-ANGEL – and then had more offspring Gnostic – all archon – are offspring of the First Archon = Arch-Archon but the Ezekiel 28 explains it.Ezk 28 – is a commentary on Man or EveYou claim I follow Roman Edit. Well you have life after death, and so do the Roman Catholics, they say the spirit of the man never dies and lives in heaven.So does Jewish theology - your teaching is the oppositeI don't support this idea at all.Correct – satan has you convinced – it is all about biology and this world Catholics also have a punishing place for spirits too. Another Roman edit you also follow.So does Jewish theology - your teaching is the oppositeYou also follow the Roman edit trinity too.YES – I DO
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 4:06:36 GMT -5
RP " DO you agree the dragon is an opposing power? D" Opposes man - Agreed R" Why only oppose Man? Why would a creature want to oppose man in the first place?
You do not see the dragon as a sinning power? Why is that?
When your Gnostic writings says "He sinned...." ?
D"I have always taught that the archon oppose man R" OK Why?
For a creature to intentionally oppose man, makes that creature have something hateful to humans... I remember your Gnostic writings saying the shedim refused to bow down to humans? DO you have some logical reason for this hate attitude?
It makes more sense if the shedim is a sinning power, hence they attack humans so we also become sinning agents. But you do not consider this idea? Why is that?
D"It began with the Catholic church fathers - not before R" Not so, Noah gave the Chinese a devil creature, which sins and causes humans to sin, long before the Jews even existed...
D"Correct this is your only defense – the Jews do not understand their own language –culture – or theology R" Jews do not accept Jesus, or Jesus as a sin-offering sacrifice for sins, hence a problem here.
D"I posted a Jewish sermon on the word – why didn’t you correct the sermon – you didn’t even point out one error in the sermon R" The video did not discuss amanuah much, perhaps a little talk about it being "trust". I get the impression Jews do not do torah word studies, they assume everybody knows the Hebrew word meanings?
D"So does Jewish theology - your teaching is the opposite R" Yes my view is opposite.
Tell me, can you get your departed soul to come back to earth in a séance and allow it to talk via a medium to loved ones?
Saul did this for Samuel , so do Jews support this idea, and do you also? Can you speak to the souls after they have left their bodies?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 3, 2022 6:20:06 GMT -5
RP " DO you agree the dragon is an opposing power? D" Opposes man - Agreed R" Why only oppose Man? Why would a creature want to oppose man in the first place?
Fact – the archon are out real struggle Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Fact – they were made by God for God Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
R" Why only oppose Man? Why would a creature want to oppose man in the first place?
Fact – God test man Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
25 Bible verses about God Testing Peoplehttps://bible.knowing-jesus.com › topics › God-Testing-... “I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways,
Fact – God does not do the testing Himself Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Jas 1:15 Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death.
dragged away and enticed by his own desire.
Gen 3:6 Now the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a thing of lust for the eyes, and that the tree was desirable for imparting wisdom. So she took of its fruit and she ate. She also gave to her husband who was with her and he ate.
You do not see the dragon as a sinning power? Why is that? They were made by God for God – they are a deliberate part of the God’s Plan There is only God’s Will – there is only God’s Plan Everything was made by God – for a purpose No created creature ever changed its own form and purpose / function against God’s Will and then change all of God’s Plan against God’s will – absolute ridicules
When your Gnostic writings says "He sinned...." ? 1- arrogance – not transgression of a commandment 2- 200 or so of millions – did not reproduce after their own kind – and they are held in chains to be released at Rev 9
I remember your Gnostic writings saying the shedim refused to bow down to humans? DO you have some logical reason for this hate attitude? ABSOLUTE INSULTING ERROR The Gnostic writings of Jams, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas - DO NOT ENDORSE ISLAM OR THE KORAN
D"It began with the Catholic church fathers - not before R" Not so, Noah gave the Chinese a devil creature, which sins and causes humans to sin, long before the Jews even existed... No one denies the Beast
D"Correct this is your only defense – the Jews do not understand their own language –culture – or theology R" Jews do not accept Jesus, or Jesus as a sin-offering sacrifice for sins, hence a problem here. So all of the Jewish Theology of Jesus Christ – His disciples – His audience – and His followers is error So all of the Context of Jesus Christ and the Gospel is error Everything that Jesus believed – and taught before the Cross was all error YOUR ELLEN WHITE SDA CULT IS ERROR and anti-Jewish – thus anti-Christian
D"I posted a Jewish sermon on the word – why didn’t you correct the sermon – you didn’t even point out one error in the sermon R" The video did not discuss amanuah much, perhaps a little talk about it being "trust". I get the impression Jews do not do torah word studies, they assume everybody knows the Hebrew word meanings? YES - when you listen to a Rabbi speak – you are not in (Sunday School for children) a CONFIRMATION CLASS learning to read Hebrew scripture YES – when you listen to a Rabbi speak – they assume you have already been confirmed – bar mitzvahed YES – when you listen to a Rabbi speak – he assume you already know your scripture
D"So does Jewish theology - your teaching is the opposite R" Yes my view is opposite. Why are your views – opposite of Jesus Christ and His Theology?
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees and Torah scholars, you shall never enter the kingdom of heaven!
Tell me, can you get your departed soul to come back to earth in a séance and allow it to talk via a medium to loved ones? Saul did this for Samuel , so do Jews support this idea, and do you also? Can you speak to the souls after they have left their bodies?
If Saul did it for Samuel – then it is scripture – and YES I believe scripture I would not presume to mock or deny the words of scripture Why are you so comfortable doing so?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 16:50:10 GMT -5
www.gnosticdoctrine.com/2020/06/satan-devil.htmlThe theology of orthodox Christianity places the devil in juxtaposition with God. As the one is presented for worship as the source and embodiment of all good, so the other is held up for detestation and dread, as the instigator and promoter of all evil. Practically, the one is regarded in the light of the good God, and the other as the bad god. It is the polytheism of paganism in its smallest form: and the philosophy of the ancients embodied in names and forms supplied by the Bible.R" I seeThe first thing we have to address is the definition of Satan. While fundamentalists will tell you that Satan was present in the Bible from the very foundations laid in Genesis, history tells us a different story. The words Satan, Devil, demon, Lucifer, fallen angel etc. simply don't occur in the whole of the book of Genesis. Throughout the Old Testament, the one and only God is presented as all powerful, without equal and in no competition with any other cosmic force. The Old Testament makes it clear that any 'adversary' to God's people was ultimately under the control of God Himself.R" I see, so GOD is also our Opposer? Sure God opposes our sins, but can we also say God is THE-OPPOSER? Did not some cherub first sin, becoming THE-OPPOSER? The period between the Old and New Testaments saw the production of a huge volume of Jewish literature advocating a personal Satan. Jewish writings speak of a figure called Beliar, a kind of personal Satan figure. The Book of Enoch and the story of the "watchers" became accepted as dogma amongst the Jews- i.e. that the "watcher" Angels had sinned and come to earth at the time of Genesis 6 and married beautiful women. Thus the Book Of Jubilees, dating from around 104 B.C., claims that God placed "over all nations and peoples, spirits in authority, to lead them astray" (15:31). Why would the righteous God place His people under the authority of those who would lead them astray- and then judge us for going astray? Jubilees 5:2 blames the flood on the fact that the earth was morally corrupt, but it claims that the animal creation also sinned and brought about the state of corruptness which required the destruction of the flood- thereby taking the spotlight off human sin as the sole cause for the flood.R" I see, so angels sinned, Jewish idea now, but later abandoned?The Bible clearly states that the suffering and disease that there is in the earth is a result of Adam's sin; but Jubilees claims that all such illnesses were a result of evil spirits, "And we explained to Noah all the medicines of their diseases, together with their seductions, how he might heal them with herbs of the earth" (Jub. 10:12-13).After the fall of the second temple Rabbinical scholars rejected all of the Enochian writings mentioning Satan as a literal, heavenly figure and fallen angels, and viewing Satan to symbolize evil inclination (malicious impulses) yetzer hara (Hebrew: יֵצֶר הַרַע)Satan
SATAN is a Hebrew word that has been transferred to the New Testament and to the English. It denotes an adversary, an opponent or an enemy. It has been translated seven times: “adversary”; five times: “be an adversary”; once each: “resist” and “to withstand”; nineteen times: “satan” (as in Numbers 22:22; Matthew 16:23).The Accuser (often said by clergy to be Satan) in the Book of Job is literally an agent of the court, much like Prosecutors in the modern legal system. There’s no indication that this is a fallen angel. (One has to ask, how on earth did a fallen angel even appear before God if said fallen angel is supposed to be suffering in the fires of Hell?) The original Hebrew word HaSatan simply means adversary or accuser.The first place where it occurs is Num. 22:22 :--"And God's anger was kindled because he (Balaam) went; and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary (SATAN) against him."It next occurs in the same chapter, verse 32 :--"And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? Behold, I went out to withstand (marg., to be AN ADVERSARY--a Satan to) thee."In this case, Satan was a holy angel. Understanding "Satan" to mean adversary in its simple and general sense, we can see how this could be; but, understanding it as the evil being of popular belief, it would be a different matter. The following are other cases in which the word is translated "adversary," in the common version of the Scriptures:--"Let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary (SATAN) to us" (1 Sam 29:4)."And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries (SATANS) unto me?" (2 Sam 19:22)."But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary (SATAN) nor evil occurrent" (1 Kings 5:4)."And the Lord stirred up an adversary (SATAN) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom" (1 Kings 11:14)."And God stirred him up another adversary (SATAN), Rezon, the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah.""And he was an adversary (SATAN) to Israel all the days of Solomon" (1 Kings 11:23, 25).Matthew 16:23 - “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of MEN.”The foregoing literal definitions indicate certain characteristics applicable to mankind and NOT to a superhuman evil god of the lower regions.These definitions indicate characteristics of mankind, NOT a superhuman evil god.The devil of popular opinion (the demigod of the lower region) cannot be found in the Hebrew Old testament writings.R" I see, only the demigod God created the shedim, programmed to do RA on purpose, to tempt humans to sin? Does not this make God guilty of helping us be tempted? The deceiving phase of mind in man that has fixed ideas in opposition to Truth (adversary, lier in wait, accuser, opposer, hater, an enemy). Satan assumes various forms in man's consciousness, among which may be mentioned egotism, a puffing up of the personality; and the opposite of this, self-deprecation, which admits the "accuser" into the consciousness. This "accuser" makes man believe that he is inherently evil.Satan is the "Devil," a state of mind formed by man's personal ideas of his power and completeness and sufficiency apart from God. Besides at times puffing up the personality, this satanic thought often turns about and, after having tempted one to do evil, discourages the soul by accusing it of sin. Summed up, it is the state of mind in man that believes in its own sufficiency independent of its creative Source.Satan--The Adversary, the great universal negative whose power is derived from the unlawful expression of man's own being. The serpent as "Satan" is sensation suggesting indulgence in pleasures beyond the law fixed by creative Mind.The DevilIn the New Testament, the word DEVIL is derived from the Greek word ‘diabolos’ which literally means a slanderer, a false witness, or a liar, which can only apply to mankind and not to one of God’s heavenly hosts.As Jesus applied "Satan" to Peter, so he applied "devil" to Judas: "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is A DEVIL?" (John 6:70). Judas proved a liar, a betrayer, a false accuser, and, therefore, a devil. Paul, in 1 Tim 3:11, tells the wives of deacons not to be devils. His exhortation, it is true, does not appear in this form in the English version. The words, as translated, are "Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers (diabolous)." The same remark applies to 2 Tim 3:2, 3 "For men shall be... without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers (diaboloi)"; and to Titus 2:3: "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers (diabolous).""Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might DESTROY him that had the power of death, THAT IS, THE DEVIL."On the supposition that the devil here referred to is the orthodox devil, or a personal devil of any kind, there are four absurdities on the face of this passage.In the first place, to take on the weakness of flesh and blood was a strange way of preparing to fight a powerful devil, who, it would be imagined, would be more successfully encountered in the panoply of angelic strength, which Paul expressly says Jesus did not array himself in; for he says, "He took not on him the nature of angels" (Heb. 2:16).In the second place it was stranger still that the process of destroying the devil should be submission to death himself! One would have thought that to vanquish and destroy the devil, life inextinguishable, and strength indomitable, would have been the qualification. Undoubtedly they would have been so, if, the Bible devil had been the orthodox devil--a personal monster.In the third place, the devil ought now to be dead, or whatever else is imported by the word "destroyed," for Christ died nineteen centuries ago, for the purpose of destroying him by that process. How comes it then, that the devil is clerically represented to be alive and busier than ever in the work of hunting immortal souls with gin and snare, and exporting them to his own grim domain? The devil Christ has come to destroy is sin. If anyone doubts this, let .him reconsider Paul's words quoted above. What did Christ accomplish in his death? Let the following testimonies answer:--"He put away SIN by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26)."Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor 15:3)."He was wounded for our transgressions; he was bruised for our iniquities" (Isa. liii, 5)."His own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (2 Pet 2:24)."He was manifested to take away OUR SINS" (1 John 3:5).Christ, through death, destroyed, or took out of the way, "the sin of the world ". In this, he destroyed the Bible devil. He certainly did not destroy the popular devil in his death, for that devil is supposed to be still at large, but in his own person, as a representative man, he extinguished the power of sin by surrendering to its full consequences, and then escaping by resurrection, through the power of his own holiness, to live for evermore. This is described as "God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. viii, 3). Sin in the flesh, then, is the devil destroyed by Jesus in his death. This is the devil having the power of death, for it is sin, and nothing else but sin that causes death to men. Does anyone doubt this ? Let him read the following testimonies:By one man sin entered into the world, and death BY sin" (Rom. v, 12)"By man CAME DEATH (I Cor. xv, 21)."The wages of sin is DEATH" (Rom. vi, 23). "SIN hath reigned unto death" (Rom. v, 21). "SIN... bringeth forth death" (James i, 15). "The sting of death is SIN" (I Cor. xv, 56).The devil, a Bible synonym for sin - abstract and concrete - existing as the spirit of disobedience in the children of men and embodied and manifested in the persons and institutions of present order of things.Satan The devil is a personification of human nature this is not an abstraction but that physical principle of the animal nature, which is the cause of all its diseases, death, and resolution into dust. It is that in the flesh "which has the power of death" and it is called sin, because the development, or fixation, of this evil in the flesh, was the result of transgression. Inasmuch as this evil principle pervades every part of the flesh, the animal nature is styled "sinful flesh," that is, "flesh full of sin"; so that sin, in the sacred style, came to stand for the substance called man. In human flesh "dwells no good thing" (Rom. 7:17,18); and all the evil a man does is the result of this principle dwelling in him.R" I see, so no fallen cherub sinned? the devilSame as Satan, which see. The "devil" signifies the mass of thoughts that have been built up in consciousness through many generations of earthly experiences and crystallized into what may be termed human personality, or carnal mind. Another name of the "devil" is sense consciousness; all the thoughts in one that fight against and are adverse to Truth belong to the state of mind that is known to metaphysicians as the Devil.The "devil" is a state of consciousness adverse to the divine good. Other names for this state of consciousness are the Adversary, carnal mind, the accuser, and the old man. There is no personal devil. God is the one omnipresent Principle of the universe, and there is no room for any principle of evil, personified or otherwise.Devil, how to overcome the--The Devil is overcome by denying his existence and by affirming universal Christ love for God and all men. The devils that we encounter are fear, anger, jealousy, and other similar negative traits, and they are in ourselves. Christ gives us the power to cast out these devils, thereby cleansing our consciousness.Who is Satan in Gnosticism?If we take, for example, the Valentinian Gnostic cosmogony, the Christian notion of Satan doesn’t come into play at all.According to the sethian Gnostics The God of the Jews and the Christians is either Yaldabaoth or Sabaoth the ill-begotten son of Sophia, who gave birth outside of the normal pattern of reproduction for the Divine Syzygies in the Pleroma.It is I who am God, and there is none apart from me.’ When he said this, he sinned against the whole place. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, “You are wrong, Samael,” that is, “God of the blind.” . . . And he said, “If anything else exists before me, let it become visible to me!”Samael is an archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore; a figure who is the accuser (Ha-Satan), In the Apocryphon of John, On the Origin of the World, and Hypostasis of the Archons, found in the Nag Hammadi library, Samael is one of three names of the creator God, whose other names are Yaldabaoth and Saklas. In the system depicted by the sethians there is no satan and there is no need for one, for “Yahweh”—the God of Jews and Christians alike—himself acts as chief of the fallen angels who seduces and enslaves human beings. By declaring himself to be the supreme and unique God of the universeR" What? YHWH acts as chief of the fallen angels, and the shedim? The Albigenses or Cathari believed that the "the creator of the material world is the source of all evil (Albigenses by Nicholas Weber in Catholic Encyclopedia, 1907)In the Old testament Yahweh is referred to as Satan by comparing 1 Chronicles 21, and 2 Samuel 24 In the Book of Samuel, Yahweh himself is the agent in punishing Israel, while in 1 Chronicles an "adversary" is introduced. The adversary seems to have been God; for we read in 2 Sam. 24:1, "The anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and HE moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." The angel of God was a Satan to Balaam, as we have seen, and, in this case, God proved a Satan to Israel. Moved, doubtless, by the general perversity of the people, He impelled David to a course which resulted in calamity to the nation.R" I see, so Gnostics say YHWH acts as the Satan in the OT ? In contrast, Ptolemy, and other Valentinians steadfastly maintained that "the creation is not due to a god who corrupts but to one who is just and hates evil" (Letter to Flora 3:6). He carefully distinguished the Demiurge from both God and the Devil. According to Ptolemy, "he is essentially different from these two (God and the Devil) and is between them, he is rightly given the name, Middle" (Letter to Flora 7:4). He is "neither good nor evil and unjust, can properly be called just , since he is the arbitrator of the justice which depends on him" (Letter to Flora 7:5)In the gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Philip Satan and the devil never appear. however the devil appeas once in the Gospel of Truth Be concerned about yourselves. Don’t be concerned about other things which you’ve rejected from yourselves. Don’t return to eat your vomit. Don’t be eaten by worms, because you’ve already shaken it off. Don’t become a dwelling-place for the devil, because you’ve already brought him to naught. Don’t strengthen your obstacles which are collapsing, as though you’re a support. For the lawless one is nothing, to be treated more harshly than the just, doing his works among others. (Gospel of Truth)To be “a dwelling-place for the devil” implies that the Devil enters us. “The lusts of other (sinful) things entering in” (Mk. 4:19) cause us to sin. Our lusts are described several times as physically moving into our heart from our evil nature where they are stored "an evil man brings forth evil things from his evil storehouse, which is in his heart, and says evil things. For out of the abundance of the heart he brings forth evil things." (Gospel of Thomas Saying 45)Do not become a place for the Devil, for you have already defeated him defeating the devil or bringing him to naught refers to 1 John 2:13: ‘because you have overcome the evil one.’From the use of the word in Matthew 6:13; 13:19, it is obvious that it is the flesh that John is referring to, and which these ''young men had conquered by their acceptance of Christ. The evil propensities of the flesh dominate the world (1 John 3:12; 5:18-19), but these "young men had come out of the world, and had learned to conquer the flesh.The Gospel of Philip like the book of Isaiah (45:7) does not see good and evil as cosmic opposites instead—“light and dark, life and death, good and evil”—are in reality pairs of interdependent terms in which each implies the other.R" I see, so Gnostics see GOD as the author of both sinning and archons helping humans to sin, a sort of tempting the humans on purpose? Philip, on the other hand, interprets the human inclination to sin without recourse to SatanThe gospel of Thomas and Philip teach that within each person's heart lies the root of wickedness. This is Philip’s interpretation of the traditional Jewish teaching of the yetzer hara, which the rabbis called the “evil inclination.” So long as we remain unaware of “the root of evil” within us, Philip says, “it is powerful; but when it is recognized, it is destroyed.” 45. Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit. Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."The Root of EvilLet each of us also dig down after the root of evil within us and pull it out of our hearts from the root. It will be uprooted if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces fruit in our hearts. It dominates us. We are its slaves, and it takes us captive so that we do what we do [not] want and do [not] do what we want. [cf. Rom. 7:14—15] It is powerful because we do not recognize it. As long as [it] exists, it stays active. .Essential to gnosis is to “know” one’s own potential for evil. According to Philip, recognizing evil within oneself is necessarily an individual process: no one can dictate to another what is good or evil; instead, each one must strive to recognize his or her own inner state, and so to identify acts that spring from the “root of evil,” which consists in such impulses as anger, lust, envy, pride, and greed. This teacher assumes that when one recognizes that a certain act derives from such sources, one loses the conviction needed to sustain the action. In order to do evil— whether to indulge in an angry tirade, commit murder, or declare aggressive war—one seems to require the illusion that one’s action is justified, that one is acting for right reasons. This author holds, then, the optimistic conviction that “truth ... is more powerful than ignorance of error.”90 Knowing the truth in this way involves more than an intellectual process; it involves transformation of one’s being, transformation of one’s way of living: “If we know the truth, we shall find its fruits within us; if we join ourselves with it, we shall receive our fulfillmentRob asks Dave" I found this, and the Gnostic view of Satan, is that God is our Satan, our Adversary who does the bad along with the good? Is this what the Author is saying? I found this " The Gnostics didn’t disagree with all of that, but they did disagree with parts of it, and they would have taken issue with its emphases and ultimately found it too superficial to do much good. In their own writings on Christ and his teachings, they countered that Christ had taught that the true God who sent him to earth didn’t create the earth. Creation had instead been the work of a lesser, foolish, and largely evil being. That being, the demiurge, had inadvertently mixed some bits of divinity in with his otherwise absurd creation. God the Father had sent Christ the Son into the world to remedy the catastrophe that creation had caused. The world and its demonic rulers crucified Jesus, but the Son of God came back to life and thereby overcame the world. Christ’s work was carried forward whenever someone achieved gnosis, not whenever someone recited a list of merely verbal beliefs or performed a set of merely physical actions.R" What is your opinion of this ? But the majority Gnostic position[18] was one that modern scholars call “separationism:” the idea that Jesus did have a material body, but that his body and his spirit were two separate entities, such that no matter how many pains were inflicted on his body, his spirit never suffered.[19] This made perfect sense within the Gnostics’ sharply dualistic worldview, wherein spirit and matter were categorically different, and even opposing, phenomena. R" What is your opinion of this ? In this view, the heavenly being Christ temporarily entered into and took over the body of the man Jesus. The Gnostic text Three Forms of First Thought declares that a divine power “put on Jesus” like a garment.[20] The Second Treatise of the Great Seth has Christ say, “I approached a bodily dwelling and evicted the previous occupant, and I went in.”[21]R" What is your opinion of this ? The Gnostics answered that blood, and more broadly the material nature of which blood is a part, was precisely what the savior had come to earth to save us from. In the words of the Gospel of Philip, Christ “came to crucify the world.”[39] And he succeeded, even though the archons, the demonic rulers of the world, tried and failed to crucify him to stop his mission.
By descending into the material world and overcoming it by surviving the death of his body, the Gnostic Christ enabled others to overcome it and achieve a spiritual resurrection (gnosis) as well.[40] As the Gnostic Treatise on Resurrection puts it, “The Savior swallowed death. … When he laid aside the perishable world, he exchanged it for an incorruptible eternal realm. He arose and swallowed the visible through the invisible, and thus he granted us the way to our immortality.”[41]R" What is your opinion of this ? Other early church fathers writing and speaking out against Gnostic teachings included Hippolytus (c170-236) and Tertullian (c 160-220). These early Church leaders made it clear to their congregations that these texts were in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus, His Apostles, and the Church. No, there is nothing “secret” about these teachings — the early Church fathers new about these over 1,500 years ago, and were exposing these false and twisted teachings for precisely what they were
Contrary to what The Da Vinci Code claims, these Gnostic texts are not evidence of an “alternative” Christianity. Plain and simple they are evidence of an attack on the very core truths of Christianity — an intense struggle by heretical sects against the teachings of Jesus, the apostles and the early church. In fact, Gnosticism began to infiltrate the early church in the early to mid-second century, many decades after the life of Jesus, the apostles, and the formation of the Church. Think of those that today try to re-create the civil war battles of the 1860’s — that is how far removed the Gnostic texts and movement was from the writings of the New Testament and the birth of the Church. Indeed,Gnosticism arouse outside the bounds of the Church, then sought to infiltrate and destroy it with its false teachings.
R" What is your opinion of this ? Gnostic writings came after the true gospel, not before it. According to the Gnostic writings, the transcendent Father is utterly spiritual and had no contact with the created material world. In opposition to Him is the Creator of the physical world, and arrogant being who believes He is the one and only God, So in Gnosticism you have two opposing gods, both believing themselves to be immutable and all powerful.R" What is your opinion of this ? --------------------------------------- Dave" T hey were made by God for God – they are a deliberate part of the God’s Plan There is only God’s Will – there is only God’s Plan Everything was made by God – for a purpose No created creature ever changed its own form and purpose R" So you are saying the archon shedim are created as RA tempting creatures for man. That is their function. OK D"W hen your Gnostic writings says "He sinned...." ? 1- arrogance – not transgression of a commandmentR" OK how can I verify this ? SHow me the original word under the word "sinned" and another Gnostic context that means something else? D" when you listen to a Rabbi speak – he assume you already know your scriptureR" I see. No wonder videos do not teach you.... D" If Saul did it for Samuel – then it is scripture – and YES I believe scripture I would not presume to mock or deny the words of scripture Why are you so comfortable doing so?R" So is OK to speak to the spirits of dead people? Le 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God. Le 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. 1Sa 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. 1Sa 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? Why was the woman afraid to do this request? Duh not allowed in Israel. Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. Scripture says NOT to speak or seek such wizards....so which Scriptures, line upon line, why are you inconsistent? Shalom
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