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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 3:51:24 GMT -5
D" They became like divine beings—like gods, so to speak—immortal and pure. If the people at Mount Sinai had kept the Torah and not sinned, they would have retained their divine, godlike status and been ever after “sons of the Most High.” When they sinned by making the golden calf, however, they lost their divine status:R" I like this D" At least you could clearify if you believe all the rocks and trees have the spirit of God within them yerning to be reunited with the Whole R" NO they don't D" Or you believe nothing has a spirit as you argue against me?R" HUmans have the HS partnered with them, so they can live and develop a nashamah, their own spirit. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 12, 2022 8:37:58 GMT -5
D"At least you could clearify if you believe all the rocks and trees have the spirit of God within them yerning to be reunited with the Whole R" NO they don'tD"Or you believe nothing has a spirit as you argue against me? R" HUmans have the HS partnered with them, so they can live and develop a nashamah, their own spirit.What is their own spirit - are you changing your belief here as well Be consistent - man has a spirit all his own - or man is simply empowered by the HS like all the rocks and treesAlthough the world was without tragedy and suffering when it was created, since the Fall of man (Genesis 3) until today, every person experiences personal tragedy, either natural or man-made. Sometimes those tragedies are sicknesses, which were also brought into the world through sin. Suffering also occurs in natural events such as earthquakes, tornadoes, and tsunamis. Sin brought this kind of suffering into the world, too, and even nature is longing to be redeemed.
Rob notes: The Messanic Jews write the RA affects come from SIN.... Again - you deny what the Jews post - yet you use it as a factoid to prove a pointYou demand - man is just an animal empowered by the HS Question - what empowers / sustains the rocks and trees? - do you have another power I do not know about yet?If the HS within man needs to be redeemed Why doesn’t the HS within the rocks and trees need to be redeemedYou post - rocks and trees long to be redeemed Do you know what you believe?Or do you deliberately post false teachings here to validate your doctrine?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 16:59:01 GMT -5
D"You demand - man is just an animal empowered by the HS Question - what empowers / sustains the rocks and trees? - do you have another power I do not know about yet?
R" Nobody knows, Scripture does not say, how the rocks are empowered by God, the rocks have to be somehow. Must you know all things?
D"man is just an animal empowered by the HS
R" What's wrong with that idea?
Angels is just an animal empowered by the HS
Nothing wrong with that idea as well.
You ask me where does man develop his own spirit (nashamah) come from?
My answer is why must we know all things? Really are you god wanting answers for all things? My two pennies worth is the "me" that makes me "me" comes from GOD living in me, so in this relationship to God, the me develops the "me" inside of me.
Now you can label this "me" with any label you like. Who cares about infinite details? Is this "me" an eternal spirit? No That much I know, because you twist "ruwach" into some called "me" and that is wrong.
Ps 131:1 LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
My amanuah is Jesus does not require me to know all things, nor do I care to know all things. I like to explore the things God gives us to explore, but we are turning over pebbles on the beach while a whole beach of pebbles lie out there waiting to be learned.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 12, 2022 17:52:54 GMT -5
D"You demand - man is just an animal empowered by the HS Question - what empowers / sustains the rocks and trees? - do you have another power I do not know about yet? R" Nobody knows, Scripture does not say, how the rocks are empowered by God, the rocks have to be somehow. Must you know all things?
Rocks and trees yearn to be redeemed You post the theology as a rebuff to me – to prove me wrong – to prove that earthquakes and tornados are the result of sin
Do you beieve what you post? - Or do you deliberately post false doctrins as proof to support Ellen White
D"man is just an animal empowered by the HS R" What's wrong with that idea? Why does your Holy Spirit need to be redeemed? Why does your Holy Spirit choose to sin?
Angels is just an animal empowered by the HS Nothing wrong with that idea as well.
1- You deny the spirit – therefore you have biological angels – all you can see is the physical 2- so there are no angels – it is just the Holy Spirit that comes to man 3- you say – the Holy Spirit angel = your satan 4- why do you think the Holy Spirit is satan 5- The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God – why do you think God is satan
You ask me where does man develop his own spirit (nashamah) come from? My answer is why must we know all things? Who cares about infinite details? You do – you come here and argue AGAINST Judaism and Mainstream Christianity You know for a fact – that everything I teach and stand for is error You have made it your mission to come here and preach satan
You spend all your time praising the wrong god
Ps 131:1 LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
My amanuah is Jesus does not require me to know all things, - Just belief in satan as a god
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2022 4:23:16 GMT -5
D"You post the theology as a rebuff to me – to prove me wrong – to prove that earthquakes and tornados are the result of sin R" Just because the Messanic Jews write the earthquakes and tornados are the result of sin DOES NOT mean the earth, rocks or trees seek salvation.
D"Why does your Holy Spirit need to be redeemed? R" no, the HS remains holy
D" Why does your Holy Spirit choose to sin? R" The HS doesn't sin, only sinners sin.
Are you OK with your questions? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 13, 2022 7:36:13 GMT -5
D"You post the theology as a rebuff to me – to prove me wrong – to prove that earthquakes and tornados are the result of sin R" Just because the Messanic Jews write the earthquakes and tornados are the result of sin DOES NOT mean the earth, rocks or trees seek salvation.
Please make up your mind All creation yearns to be redeemed – because all creation has a Spirit Or – nothing has a spirit but is only the Holy Spirit
D"Why does your Holy Spirit need to be redeemed? R" no, the HS remains holy If man is the HS – why does man need to be redeemed If all creation is just the HS – why does it need to be redeemed
D" Why does your Holy Spirit choose to sin? R" The HS doesn't sin, only sinners sin. Who is the sinner – men and nature is just the HS to you Why does your HS need to be redeemed
R" Just because the Messanic Jews write the earthquakes and tornados are the result of sin DOES NOT mean the earth, rocks or trees seek salvation. It is the point you post to me = all creation yearns to be redeemed Proving that earthquakes and tornados are the result of sin
Are you OK with your questions? NO – still no clarification from you – you present contradictory theologies
There is no spirit and everything is just the HS – and the HS within rocks and trees and man yearns to be redeemed – because it sins
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2022 17:50:03 GMT -5
D"Please make up your mind All creation yearns to be redeemed – because all creation has a Spirit Or – nothing has a spirit but is only the Holy Spirit R" Hang on Dave We cannot go what is revealed in Scripture
Ro 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
I read this and my two pennies are
Those creatures with soul bodies, with corrupted DNA long and mourn for the renewed DNA they one had.
D"If man is the HS – why does man need to be redeemed If all creation is just the HS – why does it need to be redeemed R" Can't you understand my words? I say partnered...
Partner, relationship.
TWO entities
Divine entity is perfect, still holy, always holy Other entity is imperfect, fallen because of missing powers from God, because some one sinned.
It's this entity that longs to be restored.
Only man can be redeemed.
D"There is no spirit and everything is just the HS – and the HS within rocks and trees and man yearns to be redeemed – because it sins R" What is wrong with you?
I never said man has no spirit. The partnership of man to GOD (via the HS) allows man to develop his own spirit termed in Hebrew as Nashamah. Can't you fathom this?
When man sinned, God allowed his powers to be missing from our entire universe (God's curse) so as a result of man sinning, the entire universe is wearing out, mourning for the original powers of God in its fullest glory.
Only man can experience redemption, the rest of nature seeks restoration. The terms are different.
Redemption allows man in his older life to be restored into his life for eternity. Restoration means the older atoms arranged as things are lost forever and a brand new arrangement replaces them for eternity.
Now does my words make sense to you?
Rocks and trees and cats and dogs and lions and snakes do not sin per se' because they are not held accountable for their missing. Only humans are. My understanding is the Rocks and trees and cats and dogs and lions and snakes are all removed and replaced with brand new Rocks and trees and cats and dogs and lions and snakes .
Man is the only entity who can pass over from one world into the next world. And only if he chooses this.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 14, 2022 5:18:10 GMT -5
D"Please make up your mind All creation yearns to be redeemed – because all creation has a Spirit Or – nothing has a spirit but is only the Holy Spirit Those creatures with soul bodies, with corrupted DNA long and mourn for the renewed DNA they one had. What does this mean – what is a soul body – you argue man has no spirit – no such thing
D"If man is the HS – why does man need to be redeemed If all creation is just the HS – why does it need to be redeemed R" Can't you understand my words? I say partnered... You post – all nature yearns to be redeemed – to prove ra is the result of sin Do you believe what you say – it is hard to tell on this end
Only man can be redeemed. Then why do you post a panethistic view – all rocks and trees have a spirit that yearn for redemption
I never said man has no spirit. - WHAT A LIE! Man has no spirit - he is just empowered by the HS - do you deny your own teaching? What's the matter – is Ellen White wrong after all?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2022 16:32:06 GMT -5
D"What does this mean – what is a soul body – you argue man has no spirit – no such thing R" A soul body is DNA + matter (biologically arranged) + presence of GOD(via the HS as a medium) Man develops his nashamah upon partnered with God, it's called our nashamah, our spirit. This developed is recorded by the HS every day, as we are yoked together with God.
D"You post – all nature yearns to be redeemed – to prove ra is the result of sin R" Yes the DNA was spoiled by entropy and intentional losses on the part of the Opposer opposing God. Sir where did the tares come from? Jesus replied, an enemy did this. Here the mischief maker spoils the womb of creation in nearly all creatures, including weeds.
D"Then why do you post a panethistic view – all rocks and trees have a spirit that yearn for redemption R" I didn't post this idea? Show me the sentence again?
D"I never said man has no spirit. - WHAT A LIE! R" OH, show me the sentence you get this idea from? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 14, 2022 17:38:15 GMT -5
D"What does this mean – what is a soul body – you argue man has no spirit – no such thingR" A soul body is DNA + matter (biologically arranged) + presence of GOD(via the HS as a medium)Correct – you teach man is biology partnered with the HSD"You post – all nature yearns to be redeemed – to prove ra is the result of sin R" Yes the DNA was spoiled by entropy and intentional losses on the part of the Opposer opposing God. Now you say yes – last post you denied that rocks and trees has spiritsJust more double speakD"Then why do you post a panethistic view – all rocks and trees have a spirit that yearn for redemption R" I didn't post this idea? Show me the sentence again? Although the world was without tragedy and suffering when it was created, since the Fall of man (Genesis 3) until today, every person experiences personal tragedy, either natural or man-made. Sometimes those tragedies are sicknesses, which were also brought into the world through sin. Suffering also occurs in natural events such as earthquakes, tornadoes, and tsunamis. Sin brought this kind of suffering into the world, too, and even nature is longing to be redeemed. [/font] Rob notes: The Messanic Jews write the RA affects come from SIN.... [/quote] R"I never said man has no spirit. - WHAT A LIE!R" OH, show me the sentence you get this idea from?The only ruach is the HS – Man has no spirit – upon death the HS just takes our memories to heaven You deny your own teaching?You even asked me many time – what is this spirit thing I speak about Your pretend ignorance does not a serious conversation make
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2022 5:09:24 GMT -5
Happy Special Sabbath Jewish Passover
RP " R" A soul body is DNA + matter (biologically arranged) + presence of GOD(via the HS as a medium) D" Correct – you teach man is biology partnered with the HS
R" What other theories are there? Your spirit idea has no Scripture. You say this eternal spirit thing gifted to man as us, is not made of matter, so is similar to the ID of Freud or the spark we once thought we had from GOD that made us lighter when we died. In fact there is no evidence of anything spirit, the term is a word game on your part.
The word "ruwach" means "wind" not spirit anyway, so it's your word game to make the word mean "spirit" and not "wind".
Using natural science like Roman 1 :20 says we are to use, the word "wind" ie "ruwach" is a "medium", and mediums are not made of matter, a medium is a function between media which is made of matter.
For example wind is the affect of the medium moving energy from the air media to another air media.
Another example is light enters the air media and is refracted as it enters the water media, the medium affect is called refraction.
So your "ruwach"/"wind"/"medium" make no sense, as a thing like this is just a function, not made of matter, so cannot talk or speak or move or do anything much.
Most medium affects are also virtual, hence are illusions to the observer.
So Dave it's up to you to prove this word, means something else, but if you introduce polysemy into Hebrew, you spoil the purity of a language given to us by God to Adam. D"Now you say yes – last post you denied that rocks and trees has spirits Just more double speak R" DO you discuss ? Or just post confusion? Because you are confusing me with your brevity.
D"Apr 9, 2022 at 8:47am robertt said: Although the world was without tragedy and suffering when it was created, since the Fall of man (Genesis 3) until today, every person experiences personal tragedy, either natural or man-made. Sometimes those tragedies are sicknesses, which were also brought into the world through sin.
Suffering also occurs in natural events such as earthquakes, tornadoes, and tsunamis. Sin brought this kind of suffering into the world, too, and even nature is longing to be redeemed R" I didn't write that Dave, I posted the words of the Messanic Jews, and I overall agree with their words.
Ro 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
These are the verses. Dave implies these sentence imply "all rocks and trees have a spirit that yearn for redemption" Now perhaps you can highlight where in these sentences and verses suggest your concern?
Where does the sentence say the rocks and tree groan for salvation?
If you practiced discussion Dave you would reduce these posts from 5 to 1, but you love to tease your readers with brevity and confusion.
D"The only ruach is the HS – Man has no spirit – upon death the HS just takes our memories to heaven You deny your own teaching? R" You didn't show me my sentence.
D"Man has no spirit?
R" Not so
Ro 8:16 The Ruwach itself beareth witness with our Nashamah, that we are the children of God:
This verse has been supplied to you before, more than 3 times, can't you read my words?
SO yes Man does have a spirit of our own that makes us "us", it is developed by partnership with GOD (via the HS)
D"upon death the HS just takes our memories to heaven
R" Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Yes the HS records our nashamah and takes our character to heaven when we die. SO no, I do not deny my teachings of the torah.
D"You even asked me many time – what is this spirit thing I speak about R" Because your "spirit thing" is not "nashamah" but some "eternal spark" gifted to use from our conception.
You claim "this spirit" can live independent of the body and independent of God. You also claim this spirit can talk and feel shame outside of its body, so it receives proportional punishment from God prior to its divine pardon.
SO I have asked you "what is this spirit thing I speak about" and you cannot supply me any Scripture on this theme at all, you don't even have a Hebrew word for this thing you term "spirit".
D"Your pretend ignorance does not a serious conversation make R" I do not pretend. We SDA have never heard of some "eternal spark", and your Gnostic views are totally alien to me also. Now you play a word game. "Spirit" is not a meaning you can give to "ruwach" because "ruwach" means "wind" and a "wind" is a medium function, something NOT made of matter.
That might suit you, because your spirit thing is not made of matter either. OK. so how can it talk or feel shame after the body dies? Your answer might be "spirits" are like "god" who is not of matter either.
OK, now you have assumed GOD can give us something that belongs only to God. Now you really scare me with theories of blasphemy. How can GOD give us anything only God is? If God is living, why can't God give us the ability to be living without God, but God doesn't and therefore GOD can't. Only God is immortal. So you have a massive job to explain, something not made of matter, something of qualities like god, given to man.... Yet you have no Scripture for this idea?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 15, 2022 6:28:36 GMT -5
RP " R" A soul body is DNA + matter (biologically arranged) + presence of GOD(via the HS as a medium) D" Correct – you teach man is biology partnered with the HS R" What other theories are there? God created man as spirit along with all the host of heaven Gen 2:7 God place the spirit of man into the animal mam – and man became a human being
Your spirit idea has no Scripture. Correct you deny the spirit and the spiritual – all you can see is the WORLD of biology
In fact there is no evidence of anything spirit, the term is a word game on your part. Correct you deny the spirit and the spiritual – all you can see is the WORLD of biology
The word "ruwach" means "wind" not spirit anyway, so it's your word game to make the word mean "spirit" and not "wind". So now you don’t even have a Holy Spirit – it is just the wind
D"Now you say yes – last post you denied that rocks and trees has spirits Just more double speak R" DO you discuss ? Or just post confusion? Because you are confusing me with your brevity. R" I didn't write that Dave, I posted the words of the Messanic Jews, and I overall agree with their words.
Correct you post what you consider false teachings to prove your point Then you say – you do not even believe what you post You just post crap – then deny you mean it It is how you operate – and it is why we are not sure what you believe – because you consistently post conflicting theologies
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Post by Dave on Apr 15, 2022 7:57:42 GMT -5
On the one hand you say you do not believe in panethism The teaching that we are each a small fragment of God Himself
Then you offer it as a defense of your views
Your misrepresentation of Judaism + mainstream Christianity – and me – is so tiring
You teach man is only the HS – you teach each man is just empowered by the HS You teach that when man dies – only the HS return to God You DO believe in panethism – you do believe that each man is a small fragment of the HS
THIS IS NOT MY TEACHING – NOT IS IT JUDAISM OT MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANITY
Each Cow is an independent and unique individual When you speak to a Cow – you are not speaking to the HS – you are just speaking to a Cow When I speak to you – I am not speaking to the HS – I am speaking to you
You are not the Holy Spirit – your claim of Divinity is rejected
You are just a man – created as in independent unique individual Created on Day 1 – having a temporary physical experience in this world
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2022 16:34:59 GMT -5
D"You DO believe in panethism – you do believe that each man is a small fragment of the HS
THIS IS NOT MY TEACHING – NOT IS IT JUDAISM OT MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANITY
Each Cow is an independent and unique individual When you speak to a Cow – you are not speaking to the HS – you are just speaking to a Cow When I speak to you – I am not speaking to the HS – I am speaking to you
You are not the Holy Spirit – your claim of Divinity is rejected
R" You see to have trouble reading words.
D"you do believe that each man is a small fragment of the HS
R" NO, we are not a small fragment of the HS.
As I told you before the word ruwach means medium, its a function to allow GOD to empower us with living, the breath of life, than comes to us via the medium, and is administrated in us personally by the Shadday, (HS for laypeople) , we are therefore PARTNERED to the DIVINE, not fragments of the divine.
Is this clear to you?
When you connect your hand to the hand of GOD you are alive. Does not mean you have a piece of God, only His powers flow into you, so you can live.
Like a child sitting on Daddies legs driving the Holden Car over the tracks on the private property, you feel empowered...you drive where ever you like. Within the loving boundaries of Daddy, but hey, you are driving the powers of Dad !
It's like that.
We are not fragments of God .... what a silly idea. God cannot gift us a fragment of Himself. Only God is immortal. Only God is living. God is not of matter, time or space, so cannot grant you a part of Himself, even if God could, which He can't. So much for your "spirit" bogus idea. The word is translated badly my friend. The term means "wind" in natural meanings, or "medium" for every context. The "holy medium" refers to the special way GOD flows into His creation via the Shadday functioning as the Ruwach.
You play word games, hijacking the term "ruwach" to mean something it doesn't mean. Too many people are confused with the term "spirit", hence I do not like this term for that reason, its a tradition of men, and you fall for it in your English, but I prefer to translate the Hebrew word into English correctly for every context, and that context is "medium". Some verses the medium is wind, and in other verses the medium is "the flow of God administrated in the medium" which others term "God's spirit", and on other occasions the context suggests "the flow of our character administrated in the medium" which other term "our spirit".
Hope this helps.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 16, 2022 6:24:32 GMT -5
D"you do believe that each man is a small fragment of the HS R" NO, we are not a small fragment of the HS.
As I told you before the word ruwach means medium, its a function to allow GOD to empower us with living, the breath of life, than comes to us via the medium, and is administrated in us personally by the Shadday, (HS for laypeople) , we are therefore PARTNERED to the DIVINE, not fragments of the divine. Is this clear to you? Absolutely on the sub-atomic scale
When you connect your hand to the hand of GOD you are alive. Does not mean you have a piece of God, only His powers flow into you, so you can live. Absolutely on the sub-atomic scale
It's like that. We are not fragments of God .... what a silly idea. God cannot gift us a fragment of Himself. Only God is immortal. (deliberate misuse of the word – word man)
Only God is living – so all the animals and men are what – just an illusion – we are not alive this is your teaching?
God is not of matter – you teach him as biology – heart cells al working together
You play word games, hijacking the term "ruwach" to mean something it doesn't mean. Too many people are confused with the term "spirit", YOU HAVE MADE YOURSELF VERY CLEAR – YOU REFUSE TO BELIEVE But ask how can you get more faith
Who makes your choices – who inside you choose to sin or do mitzvah – Inside of man is empty according to you – only the HS
Who makes your choices – your brain and your thought all return to dust Only your spirit retunes to God – but you say that is only the HS
Who makes your choices – is your satan telling your HS what to do? You claimed than Rom 5:19 meant that satan rules man – why do you say your satan rule the HS?
YOU ANSWER – you just keep talking in circles – asking questions but refusing to answer Who is inside you making your choices – your brain and its thought perish the day you die
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