D: "Is each angel – just a piece of God – NO
Each angel is an independent and unique spirit being
R I am happy to test your theory.
Where does the torah say cherub is a spirit?
Heb 1:14 Are they <eisi> not <ouchi> all <pas> ministering <leitourgikos> spirits <pneuma>, sent forth <apostello> to <eis> minister <diakonia> for <dia> them who shall <mello> be heirs of <kleronomeo> salvation <soteria>?
(KJV)
This verse details and suggests angels are something like a medium. A leitourgikos medium.
Tell me what leitourgikos means?
1 Kings 22 says GOD asked for an angel to volutaneer as a leitourgikos medium, so this is a clue perhaps.
G3008 is used only 3 times:
Ac 13:2 As <de> they <autos> ministered <leitourgeo> to the Lord <kurios>, and <kai> fasted <nesteuo>, the Holy <hagios> Ghost <pneuma> said <epo>, <de> Separate <aphorizo> me <moi> <te> Barnabas <Barnabas> and <kai> Saul <Saulos> for <eis> the work <ergon> whereunto <hos> I have called <proskaleomai> them <autos>.
So the idea of a "leitourgikos medium" is any creature helping doing the work of the "divine medium", notice the humans are doing this, helping the HS it it's medium work of helping GOD with salvation to others.
Ro 15:27 It hath pleased them <eudokeo> ...also <kai> to minister <leitourgeo> unto them <autos> in <en> carnal things <sarkikos>.
The term also suggests helping others with fleshy duties.
Heb 10:11 And <kai> <men> every <pas> priest <hiereus> standeth <histemi> daily <kata> <hemera> ministering <leitourgeo>
The term suggests helping humans with pastor duties.
SO an apostle, a pastor, a doctor can be examples of "leitourgikos medium" , because they assist the HS medium to functionally help GOD in saving others.
But your saying "Each angel is an independent and unique spirit being" . I can't find any torah on this idea.
Ps 104:3 Who layeth the beams <qarah> of his chambers <`aliyah> in the waters <mayim>: who maketh <suwm> the clouds <`ab> his chariot <r@kuwb>: who walketh <halak> upon the wings <kanaph> of the wind <ruwach>:
4 Who maketh <`asah> his angels <mal'ak> spirits <ruwach>; his ministers <sharath> a flaming <lahat> fire <'esh>:
This suggests GOD makes "messenger mediums", and this idea is similiar to the idea of "leitourgikos medium", but you are reading into the word "ruwach" as "spirit", hence the "angels are spirits".
Malak means messenger.
Ruwach means medium.
Sure this is saying angels are messenger mediums. But also humans are messenger mediums.
Heb 1:7 And <kai> of <pros> <men> the angels <aggelos> he saith <lego>, Who maketh <poieo> his <autos> angels <aggelos> spirits <pneuma>, and <kai> his <autos> ministers <leitourgos> a flame <phlox> of fire <pur>.
8 But <de> unto <pros> the Son <huios> he saith, Thy <sou> throne <thronos>, O God <theos>, is for <eis> ever <aion> and ever <aion>: a sceptre <rhabdos> of righteousness <euthutes> is the sceptre <rhabdos> of thy <sou> kingdom <basileia>.
This context suggests the Son of GOD is higher than angels, who are just creatures of creation.
D: "Each man is a unique spirit being – an individual spirit body – unique and different from all the other spiritual entities- this has nothing to do with biology
R I see. So this "spirit entity" cannot talk for humans, so nothing to do with biology? OK so why is it necessary than?
I thought we agree this "thing" is a "spark" a divine power from the Father flowing via the HS-medium into our biology, that causes us to be us, unique, free and independent?
D: "So the power of God works with God
So what happen to the YOU in your example
You demand there is no YOU – then suggest that YOU and God work together
R Hmm? Like a electric jug, the power only makes the jug functionally alive to heat water.
Like the dead mozzie squashed up, suddenly the spark comes back and the biology is up and running again, and the mozzie flies away.
When a human lies sleeping in a coma, suddenly the spark comes back and the biological machinery is alive, and so the human becomes unique independent and free to develop it's love that flows from GOD.
Dave this spark is a tiny flow of love, we run on love, this love is our electrical power required for living. Once you get love flowing into you, you become "living energy", this is the term "soul". The "living energy" is now free and unique to develop love from the love shop (GOD) into any form of love, this human wishes. Love comes in three basic fundamentals, with 4 traits and 12 personality types. SO everybody is unique. But remove this spark of love, and the living energy stops living. Is this so hard to understand?
D:"while having a sinning attitude.
The archon are self-centered – they are self-driven – this I agree with
Is this a sin? – NO
A cow is 100% self-centered – the cow is not given the opportunity to choose salivation
R whoo hang on. YOu agree this creature has a sinning attitude.
You say its it's not sin though.
A cow is NOT 100% self centered. Cows today are affected by Adam's sin, because humans were stewards of Creation.
Just because lower animals do not have access to choosing salvation does not mean lower animals can't sin.
D: "A cow is just an animal – there is nothing there to save – no soul to save
R sorry cows do have a "soul" the same as humans have? Read the Gen account yourself.
It's just their souls are downward and human souls are upward, as Eccel says, so lower animals are not recorded unto salvation, only humans are.
D: "Baboons wreak havoc and chaos throughout the jungle – because they are just self-driven selfish animals
Do baboons sin when they cause trouble – NO
It is just what they do
R Sorry, I would see this a sin, but since lower animals are NOT held accountable, their sinning does not matter to God.
Anything missing perfection is a consequence from sin.
Nuclear decay, is the result of sin. Some Atoms do missing, but a human caused the atoms to experience decay, or sin. That human was Adam. Why Adam? Because was once a "prince over creation on earth".
D: "But you say man has no soul – no spirit within – we are just like ants and cows
You deny the spirit
R I have never said man has no "breath of medium" the spark of GOD that allows us to become living energy.
You add additional features to the "spirit idea" which is not there in the torah, that is our difference.
SO I don't deny a spirit relationship with GOD.
D: "The archon were ejected from heaven in Gen 1:2 and hidden away in the choshek - Agree
R good. And why were these angels ejected from heaven and hidden away, Dave?
Because of their sinning? DO you agree with this?
Why do you twist angels into archon? A term not found in the NT as a brand new type of creature?
D: "But now all the angels changed form into demons
R My experience with PNG natives and their black magic is that the sinning angels can enter any animal and become any form of creature they like, they seem not to be bound to a human body like humans have.
As you say angels have "ethreal bodies"....
D: "But according to you – angels can change their own species into different creatures
R I am hearing you brother.... not sure of their angelic powers....
They seem to enter the minds of animals and possess them somehow, not become that animal, more like taking over the animals mind.
Many humans are also taken over by these sinning angels. Movie stars worship these angels because they give them a famous life, in exchange for their human soul.
D: "Questions are not a sin
R Now I have heard averything Dave.
A sinning angel sins by saying to Jesus, worship me... this is not a question anyhow? Its a command.
Of course questions can be sinful?
Any flow of words that is not perfectly edifying others is a sin.
Mt 4:9 And saith the sinning angel unto Jesus, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
This is no question Dave, it's a cop out command. Worship me and I will make your journey here on earth easy.
D: "Jesus – the Son of Man – MUST be tested and tempted as every man – or He is an unworthy sacrifice
R you use a contradiction here.
The Hebrew word you use has ONE meaning, or its OPPOSITE meaning. But NOT BOTH meaning.
"MUST be tested and tempted " NO NO NO NO NO you are SO WRONG
Nobody can CURSE and BLESS
Nobody can LOVE and HATE
Nobody can TEST and TEMPT
There three examples us a single word meaning in Hebrew, or its opposite. You cannot do BOTH.
Scripture says
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
(KJV)
So you have one master or the other master, you cannot have BOTH masters.
Your theology does not have two masters wanting to rule over the soul?
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
What is mammon? Where does mammon come from?
D: "Not only is God is an accessory - he ordered the hit upon Job - He sent the angel of death
R NO
God did not order a hit upon Job. God simply allowed the opposer some more powers of opposing GOD.
God did not send the "angel of death".
Death comes from SIN, not GOD. Sin causes separation from GOD and hence death.
God would only cause living. If any creatures die it's because they choose separation from GOD.
Or because the opposer is given powers to fully do the RA He likes doing.
D: "God gave man the ability to choose – the ability to sin – correct
God’s love includes risk – your view – I agree
God is the author of the Prodigal Son – He loves us enough to let us go hoping that we return on our own
R All creatures have this ability to love, freely, even angels, even parrots, even the baboon.
So if creatures choose not to love, why do you say this makes GOD less powerful? It doesn't.
D: "Sin is a choice – how does a volcano choose to disobey God?
R choose to sin? Hmm? How much of our own sinning is done without us knowing about it?
About 75 % of our sinning is natural, without our sinning conscious of sinning.
If I was perfect I would ever step on a nail, never allow dust in my eye, never miss a word in coversation.... We sin all the time, without choosing.
God hold us accountable to the sin we fully are known for... that is fair...
D: "Sin did not originate from GOD.
God gave man the ability to choose – therefore God gave man the ability to sin
Sin is a relationship that opposes GOD.
Sin is not a relationship – sin is a choice to respect that relationship or not
R So sin is a choice of respect, no opposing in it? Are you kidding? Chata is defined as missing.
And missing is no respect thing, its a tangible visible thing, you miss, you break relationship. Sure looks like opposing GOD to me, when you sin you actually become an opposer.
The verb and noun for the same Hebrew means, you start opposing GOD a little, and become fully an opposer later on, when you are fully evil.
Respect is an attitude, Greek thinking. Not Hebrew thinking, is about verbs and actions.
D: "Poetry is not literal – to say that a man fought like a tiger
R so if poetry is not literal, than 50% of BIble is not literal. Wow you just made the Tanak a book of fiction.
D: "Their argument is – if children play with a quwigi board - they are opening themselves up to possession
R correct. Whatever is holy, noble and of GOD, think of these things.
D: "Gnostics are open to information – regardless of source – because all things point to the creator
R wow no wonder you are confused. Gnostic wrtings is full of Greek weird ideas, pagan ideas, as well as snippets of truth from torah. That is how people are deceived.
D: "You have taught me several things
The use of the term SELF – I like it
R SELF is our biggest enemy of SIN, the Hebrew term for SELF is BAAL. We have a daily strugle to remove the BAAL from our lives.
D What does an academic inquiry into demonology yield
All evil – all ra – all sin – everything is credited to one single angel named satan who cherub chata
Then is one angel named satan – ruined everything everywhere – even convinced 1/3rd of all God’s angels to TURN AGAINST GOD
This is 100% satan worship – all praise to satan
You even take it so far as to think God plays defense
All of this thinking is satan worship – it is 100% Catholic – because it is 100% Catholic Mythology
I reject all this satan worship!
R Why is knowing about sinning angels, worshipping sinning angels?
Only when you sin, might you be worshipping these angels who also sin, and decieve you to sin with them? Otherwise we fight the good fight of faith?
Mr 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
If Satan doesn't exist, why did Jesus speak of this parable about His Kingdom?
Mr 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where "JESUS" is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away "JESUS" that was sown in their hearts.
If Satan doesn't exist, why did Jesus speak of this parable about SATAN opposing JESUS, directly preventing salvation working inside humans. This is more than just testing humans.
Lu 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
It's obvious to me Satan has a kingdom, where the subjects (humans) are meant to be always sinning, like the sinning angels also sin.
D: "The Rabbis never treated all of the library as scripture
They divided the writings into different groups – Torah - Neviʾim, and Ketuvim
They also had commentaries by Rabbinic scholars – the Kabbalah
They also had books now considered Gnostic – Enoch – the Book of Giants – the Book of Creation – Adam and Eve – Jashar
They also had Books considered MidRash – ancient thought
I have a Zohar – it is such a complicated read – and never yeild an answer but a set of up to five opinions
Rabbi A says this – but Rabbi B say another thing – and Rabbi C disagrees with both
R I see. What scrolls did Jesus read as a boy growing up? Obviously Jesus disagree somewhat to the Jews of His day?
Lu 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
What books of the torah did Jesus read? to be so different from Jewish thinking?
D: "Question – why is Jewish thought satanic – while Rome embraces cherub chata and makes satan a god?
R You seem to think ALL of the Jewish thought is inspired, and none of it is confusing?
The scroll of Ezekiel was written by a Jew was it not?
Is this correct or not?
SO why do you bring Roman edit into things? The scroll of Ezekiel was written by a Jew was it not?
I would imagine Satan has inspired other Jewish writers to hide Satan, so eventually he failed to exist in Jewish writings.
Do you think All Jewish writings are inspired?
The scrolls of Moses was written by Moses by and large, was it not? So how does this have anything to do with Rome?
So if I use three scrolls, Moses, Ezekiel and Isaiah, I can detail all the matters concerning an opposing angel who sinned, and is termed "THE OPPOSER".
Now you tell me that Moses, Ezekiel and Isaiah are all edited by Rome, when in fact Jews wrote these scrolls?
Inspired torah must all agree with other torah, otherwise it's not inspired.
D: "SECOND MYTH – the official Bible – Eastern Orthodox Bible – Coptic Bible – Syric Bible – the Catholic Bishops Bible and the Protestant Bible are not the same – as to books – as to verses – as to words
If you pick and choose Rome – admit that you are picking and choosing Rome
R so do these other Bibles do they have all the same words of the these scrolls:-
Moses, Ezekiel and Isaiah ?
I do not require any other scrolls.
Are the words more or less the same?
----------------------------
D: "Man is the only creature that can choose – so man is the only creature that can choose to sin
R If man is the only creature that can sin, but we have both archons and angels can sin, than you violate LAW,
but you get around this by saying the LAW does not apply to all of created creatures.
So convenient, you have an absolute GOD but not absolute LAW, which is used to measure absolutness.
If GOD does not follow his own laws, God is not absolute is He?
Sorry man is not the only creature that sinned. Scripture says angels sinned, but you gignore the Jewish writing of Ezekiel.
D: "I have selfish creatures – jealous that man gets dominion over their home archon land
R Really? If archons cannot sin, because they are programmed robots without free will, why are they jealous than? Are they programmed to be also jealous which by the way is a free will response?
Your words never stand logic.
It is easier to admit, all creatures have free will, but not all creatures are able to access salvation.
Alex the grey parrot had a free will to love her master, but Alex could not be saved, only her master human could be saved.
It's so much easier to say angels sinned, especially when torah says so, than to follow your confusing mess.
You don't even have absolute laws. I have both an absolute GOD and his absolute Law, which GOD follows absolutely.
D: "You fight for words – and a daily dose
Question – why do you have to turn Christ on every day – do you have to remember your wife every day
Dave how often does this happen?
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
This womb creative experience from our Father, via the Medium? How often?
Once?
Daily?
You tell me?
This is the only verse in all Scripture that details HOW the creative womb experience of the Father works, via the Medium, using His SON, the imrah of the WORD.
Yashuah 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
How often do you take Jesus words? experience Jesus grace? And render praise of Jesus on our lips?
Once?
Daily?
You tell me?
Shalom