Born Again

[Dave]

Dec 2, 2020 14:35:11 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Dave asks "Question – Is you wife real?
How do you know (gnosis) this?
Do you believe it to be true – do you have faith that it is true – or do you know this is true

My wife said, because she talks to you...does things for you...

THANK YOU - your answer = you have first hand knowledge - gnosis - not belief - or a strong belief

D: "However – spirit is not corporeal it is ethereal – we continue into heaven for judgment
Spirit does not die – because it is not mortal (corporeal) - only the body dies
Life lives

Dec 2, 2020 13:27:45 GMT -5 Dave said:

1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit,

Do not quench the Spirit,
Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of Adonai, searching all his inmost being.

Zec 12:1 … Adonai, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the Good News of His Son.

Rom 8:16 The Ruach Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

2Ti 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

DO you have any evidence of this, I listened to the Rabbi too, but disagree?
Why do you resist the truth of scripture?

Texts for life lives after the body has died?
Mat 17:1 After six days, Yeshua takes with Him Peter and Jacob and John his brother, and brings them up a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 Now He was transfigured before them; His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Yeshua.

Moses and Elijah are not in the grave awaiting a future resurrection - they are First Fruits

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

First Fruits

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Anointed One, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters—the one who accuses them before our God day and night—has been thrown out.

Where is this – heaven
Who are the brothers and sisters – the Bride of Christ – first fruits

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (KJV)
Breath here is ruwach, the spirit in our nephesh.

Stop playing word games and listen to scripture

His ruwach went forth – it returned to God = spirit
He returnith to his earth – dust to dust – Body / animal = flesh
Thoughts – pschie = mind/intellect / animal = flesh

Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
Absolutely – biology does not command spirit

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R: "How is Gen 1:2 speaking of the RA in the universe?

D OH – now choshek is not (missing the light) - evil or ra – I say it is – or evidence of it
D: "And creation is also the home of ra – volcanos – earthquakes – storms – and drout
But ra in itself is not sin

R I beg to differ, anything not perfect is a flaw of GOD, God only creates tov. You make GOD into something less almighty, and yet he calls this tov. God is almighty and He created only tov. Everything flawed only comes from sin, from missing God's perfect powers.

This is Elementary School Stupid 101

Rom 1:19-20 – earth without form – did not change into this in one step

There is ZERO evidence to support magic

The evidence supports – Incremental Creation

If day 7 is not 24hrs then neither are days 1-6 (The Robert Method demands this)
A day must be only 24hrs – each and every time it is used in the Hebrew – this is your lodgic

The evidence supports – Incremental Creation

God asked Job – where were you when I created the Leviathan and the Behemoth

The evidence supports – Incremental Creation

At the time of Adam and Eve there could have been as many as 8 different hominids co-existing on earth

The evidence supports – Incremental Creation

Science is filled with fossils – they tell a story
Rom 1:19-20 says they are supposed to tell a story

The evidence supports – Incremental Creation

And God look at it and said -= it is tov!

[Deleted]

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Medium.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you "wholly"; and I pray God your "whole medium and soul and body" be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 "Amanuah is he" that calleth you, who also will do it.

Do not quench the Medium, the process via which GOD communes to you in relationship, this relationship process is about Amanuah.

Notice the WHOLE medium + SOUL + BODY is all preserved blamess before Jesus.
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Pro 20:27 The spirit "nashamah" of man is the lamp of Adonai, searching all his inmost being.

If you study this Hebrew word, "n@shamah" refers to the "breath of man/ or the blast of GOD" and is a different but similar concept to "ruwach", the Medium via which GOD sustains the n@shamah of man.

This "n@shamah" is paralleled as a "candle of God", or a "light of God".

Your playing word games here assuming both "n@shamah" and "ruwach" mean the same idea, which they don't.

And since you only read Greek, but not Hebrew, you read the English as if it's totally inspired, hence the term "spirit" here does not mean "HS" but the actually biological function of man breathing.
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Zec 12:1 … and formed the spirit of man within him:
formeth <yatsar> the spirit <ruwach> of man <'adam> within <qereb> him.

Jeff Benner sees yatsar as "pressed" as pressing into clay.
Context doesn't say much...
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Joh 4:24 God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The word [is] introduced here is not part of the Hebrew. The hebrew would say

elohiym ruwach, and is a noun-noun in the construct state.

The context is speaking of how and where we worship the Father... Jesus says worship Him via the medium and by amanuah (that same word keeps coming back doesn't it?)
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Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the Good News of His Son.

Rom 8:16 The Ruach Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

2Ti 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

These texts you supply Dave do not say anything we don't already agree on.

We both agree the Medium lives in us so communion to GOD is possible.

But I asked you for texts that this medium is yours alone, that talks and does things AFTER the body dies.

------------------------------------

D: "There ta go – doing things is worship
Did Paul have to respond ?
R Yes,
how does a lover know you love them if you don't respond to that love?
How does your wife know you love her?

R: Everybody has a conscience, a gift of God, where communion can flow. We have all heard GOD speak to our minds personally at least once, so nobody is without excuse.

D Flesh = flesh- mind/body is only biology
R I am very surprised at your remark.

The conscience is a divine part of the medium process in which divinity actually talks to humans. This is a big deal. It is NOT biology, yes made of biology, but GOD himself talking to us, both wicked and straight alike.

D: "How do you get more faith – I guess by strengthening your belief
R No wonder you remark this way,
you have not studied our link,
nor read our studies,
nor considered the Hebrew contexts.
Your answer is circular, without foundation.

Dave, you define amanuah nicely. We agree. But HOW do you get more and more of amanuah flowing in your life daily? That is what our study focuses on.

For example a church in Nambia was praying for food, but only a 4 year old girl prayer was answered. Not the grown ups? Did you notice this? And the manna fell.
And still falls to this day? A miracle nobody studies how? What did this 4 yr old girl do that enabled her faith to flow with manna falling? She heard the big ones praying for food, realized the food was coming down, and so went looking for the food Jesus sent as manna. Simple really. Did you read about this?

But HOW do you get more and more of amanuah flowing in your life daily? That is what our study focuses on.

spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htmspiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm  

And the manna miracle

spiritualsprings.org/ss-1506.htmspiritualsprings.org/ss-1506.htm  

Do not neglect this study, I would study your writings, if you showed me how to be saved by Jesus, so that His powers flowing through you heals others by the touch of God.

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D: "Moses and Elijah are not in the grave awaiting a future resurrection - they are First Fruits

R Yes, but these special first fruits were raised with body and spirit, just as they had on earth before they died. However now both spirit and body are perfect, without sin spoiling anything.

Notice when Jesus rose, he came with a body like before He died, with the fresh scars on the body as well, even convincing doubting Thomas.

D: "Stop playing word games and listen to scripture
R I do listen to torah, the body and the spirit go together always, never can they be separated. Matter requires GOD in order to be living, hence they are always together, and man becomes living energy.

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D: "There is ZERO evidence to support magic
R the pictures you show earth without form and void.... yes, this is dysfunctional, your term Ra. OK

There is ZERO evidence to support magic - you mock amanuah....

Pardon my ignorance, but doing an act of amanuah is supernational, is it not, in a sense, certainly beyond natural processes, hence divine, and therefore somewhat magical?

Our Hebrew English translator on why earth was without void and formless:

"After presenting the scenes of the Lord's second coming and the destruction of the wicked, the prophecy continues: “I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled; and after that he must be loosed a little season.” [Revelation 20:1-3.]

That the expression, “bottomless pit,” represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness, is evident from other scriptures. Concerning the condition of the earth “in the beginning,” the Bible record says that it “was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.” [Genesis 1:2; The word here translated “deep” is the same that in Revelation 20:1-3 is rendered “Bottomless Pit.”]

ANd

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.” Revelation 20:1-3.
That the expression “bottomless pit” represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures. Concerning the condition of the earth “in the beginning,” the Bible record says that it “was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.” Genesis 1:2. Prophecy teaches that it will be brought back, partially at least, to this condition. Looking forward to the great day of God, the prophet Jeremiah declares: “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down.” Jeremiah 4:23-26.
Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight.71The Great Controversy, 658, 659.

ANd

"“I am pained at my very heart; ... I cannot hold my peace, because thou has heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled.” Jeremiah 4:19, 20.
“I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down.” Verses 23-26.
“Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7.
Not all in this world have taken sides with the enemy against God. Not all have become disloyal. There are a faithful few who are true to God; for John writes: “Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Revelation 14:12."

Rob replies: "From these comments, I get the idea that the "formless earth and void, together with darkness" is exactly the kind of state that arises when GOD is not there, and all God's powers are drained, hence everything runs down into choas. Why did this happen? Because Satan and his sinning angels live there, and GOD doesn't sustain this scenario. In other words your looking at what happens when sinning runs God's world, God leaves the world to it's own falling apart and running down.
I suggest to you that GOD does NOT ever create a world like this, He creates only tov all the time, without sinning affects in it. God can tolerate darkness if its the first time a creature sinned, even create a perfect world despite some darkness in it, but you suppose GOD creates darkness all the time intentionally... light cannot normally tolerate darkness.

D: "At the time of Adam and Eve there could have been as many as 8 different hominids co-existing on earth
R no evidence for this before Adam.

However some evidence of Genetically modifed humans before the flood, after Adam and Eve. Man was doing the same evils we are doing today. We do not have GMO humans yet, but this global vaccine jab coming soon with change things, soon along this idea.

D: "And God look at it and said -= it is tov!
R God looked at His Creating a world of tov, and said it was VERY tov, this added Hebrew word is there.
And yet the home where sinning angels lived was also man's home, so earth is the centre of a great controversy , God dealing with a sin problem, but you ignore this idea.
Shalom

[Dave]

Personal witness – My first Colorado home was much farther up the mountains and more remote. I also had a 25hp Kubota tractor. One day sitting on my noise diesel tractor I was surprise by an Emu. I got off the tractor and slowly walked in the house for the camera. I tried to get some nice pictures, but could never get close. Cool

When my wife came home I immediately told he what I saw – her response = disbelief- no I didn’t – I had to be mistaken – was I making it up. I was so angry. If your husband says – he is telling the truth and you doubt him still = you think your hubby a liar - = no respect

I took us into to town to a 1hr photo shop just so I could show her the pictures! A few days later in church, we learned that 12 Emu escaped from a ranch.
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Imagine yourself back in school – you go to the zoo and see an elephant
Back in school you tell all your friends what you saw – but – none of them ever saw an elephant and just doubt you. Maybe they are backwater kids and had never heard of an elephant before.
They tell you - you must have been mistaken
They tell you – they think you are just making it up

Who is correct – you who saw – or those who disbelieve?

Why was this so personal to me – because I have been down this road before
I had an encounter with – what the secular world today would call a shadow person
No one accepted my story – especially in church

I have been to counseling meetings – for people who have seen or experienced something
The UFO crowd. I have heard some UFO witnesses –

Sometime – they do not even know what they saw – other turn their vision into alien little green men

I know a lady that was respected in her community, who one day saw something. Her story cost her – her reputation and her business.

I will not judge – if you tell me you saw something – I am the last guy to think you mistaken

If a Muslim man says he had a vision of Christ on the Cross and converted – I believe him
If scripture says that an angel appeared out of thin air to people – I believe it
If scripture says Jacob saw something while dreaming –I believe it
If scripture says John time traveled to the future as wrote what he saw whit his own eyes

Guess what – I believe it all

Why do I believe it – because I have firsthand knowledge (gnosis – fact) of it (something)
My quest has been to fully describe / explain my own experience

My own church – Cody Park Community Church, Westcliffe Colorado
One of the most respected ladies there – had a similar experience to mine
Religion sent her to a mental health professional

R: Everybody has a conscience, a gift of God, where communion can flow. We have all heard GOD speak to our minds personally at least once, so nobody is without excuse.

You see Robert – we are just speaking of the same thing at all
You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit

God speaking English in your conscious is just your own yester tov urging you from the inside

When Moses came down from the mountain – he did not say – my conscious told me – he said God told him

Mat 3:17 And behold, a voice from the heavens said, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased!”

Mat 17:5 While He was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice from out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”
Mat 17:6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down, terrified.

You see Robert – we are just NOT speaking of the same thing at all
You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit

R: Everybody has a conscience, a gift of God, where communion can flow. We have all heard GOD speak to our minds personally at least once, so nobody is without excuse.

The conscience is a divine part of the medium process in which divinity actually talks to humans. This is a big deal. It is NOT biology, yes made of biology, but GOD himself talking to us, both wicked and straight alike.

Conscious is a function of biology you are correct
Conscious can be altered by drugs and conditioning

Blitzkrieg - what does it mean? – the German moved really fast – right?
No – the term is a medical term – every one of those German soldiers were issued methamphetamines (speed)

Stockholm’s syndrome and straight up brainwashing / hypnotizing

What about the mentally ill – the sick – are you denied access to God if you are unconscious?
You see Robert – we are just speaking of the same thing at all
You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit

D: "There ta go – doing things is worship
Did Paul have to respond ?
R Yes,
Just as everyone who sees something / experiences something – the only reaction they can have it to WITNESS to what they saw

If you do not believe them – to them who know better – you just look immature - denial

D: "How do you get more faith – I guess by strengthening your belief
No one is diminishing belief here – it is salvation
No one is diminishing faith here – it is steadfast conviction of belief
Fantastic – YES – grow in your belief of God and scripture – not doctrine

You see Robert – we are just NOT speaking of the same thing at all
You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit

But HOW do you get more and more of amanuah flowing in your life daily? That is what our study focuses on.
There are many way to increase your beliefs
Your relentless addiction to SDA satanology – is a strongly held conviction – much faith in SDA satanology

But to be honest – that is not your real question – your real question is how to be born of Spirit / Born Again

YET - You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit
And your faith is in SDA satanology

Rob replies: "… I get the idea that the "formless earth and void, together with darkness" is exactly the kind of state that arises when GOD is not there, and all powers are drained, hence everything runs down into choas. Why did this happen? Because Satan and his sinning angels live there, and GOD doesn't. In other words your looking at what happens when sinning runs God's world, God leaves the world to it's own falling apart and running down.

I suggest to you that GOD does NOT ever create a world like this, He creates only tov all the time, without sinning affects in it.

Psa 19:2 + Rom 1:19-20 I give all the credit and all the praise to God – for he is absolute
You just gave all the credit to your satan – then therefore your praise
But your SDA has taught you to elevate satan as worship

D: "At the time of Adam and Eve there could have been as many as 8 different hominids co-existing on earth
R no evidence for this before Adam.
If your only source of reference is the Creation Institute - I MOCK all your credibility
The only way you can say there is no evidence – is to deny 95% of scientific reality
You can scream there are no elephants – but to those who know better – you just look stupid

D: "Moses and Elijah are not in the grave awaiting a future resurrection - they are First Fruits
R Yes, but these special first fruits
Agree – those who die in Christ – First Fruits

were raised with body and spirit,
Never raises because they never died – only their bodies died

just as they had on earth before they died.
Might look the same to you – but not flesh – ethereal bodies -

Notice when Jesus rose, he came with a body like before He died, with the fresh scars on the body as well, even convincing doubting Thomas.
Really – this is why Jesus could appear out of thin air – walk through walls – and re-ascend at will

1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

So – you deny scripture – when it says we shall be changed
You insist we are - raised with body and spirit, just as they had on earth before they died.

D: "Stop playing word games and listen to scripture
R I do listen to torah, the body and the spirit go together always, never can they be separated. Matter requires GOD in order to be living,

You see Robert – we are just NOT speaking of the same thing at all
You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit

[Deleted]

D: "God speaking English in your conscious is just your own yester tov urging you from the inside

When Moses came down from the mountain – he did not say – my conscious told me – he said God told him

Mat 3:17 And behold, a voice from the heavens said, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased!”

Mat 17:5 While He was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice from out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”
Mat 17:6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down, terrified.

You see Robert – we are just speaking of the same thing at all
You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit

R Our own thoughts do and can talk to us, true, so can the Devil talk to us, but GOD also talks to us via the conscience:

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Here is a clue in the OT.

Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

Again in the NT, our conscience is a talking medium, where GOD talks to us.

You are denying these Scriptures?

D: "You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit

R why do you say I keep denying the spirit? I do not deny the HS? Explain yourself better?

D: "There are many way to increase your beliefs
Your relentless addiction to SDA satanology – is a strongly held conviction – much faith in SDA satanology
R are you kidding, there is not a single SDA person who understands amanuah as I do, my brother Pastor of SDA has read my writings, maybe only him, a little. The rest know nothing. I am alone in their study.

"in SDA satanology" I showed you two texts, but you ignore them. cherub chata, and war in heaven. Now three texts, also Jude, but you say GOD created some creatures with sinning as normal functional ways to test humans. That violates Scripture, now we have no way of defining sin, if God creates sin in some creatures and calls it tov, but with humans who sin it is called bad. Your logic is not sound and you use texts not found in the Hebrew, but in Gnostic writings.

D: "your real question is how to be born of Spirit / Born Again

R OK, where does the torah define how to be born again?

D: "But your SDA has taught you to elevate satan as worship

R your write mocking words Dave, I do not mock you, or your Gnostic words.

D: "If your only source of reference is the Creation Institute - I MOCK all your credibility
R I see, so you are stuck in your evidence and your confusion?
I do not follow man's logic, I use Scripture first and only Scripture.

R: were raised with body and spirit,
D Never raises because they never died – only their bodies died

R just as they had on earth before they died.
D Might look the same to you – but not flesh – ethereal bodies -

Where does Scritpure say a complete Spirit is given to the body to become a man?

Scripture says:

Ge 2:7 And the LORD <Y@hovah> God <'elohiym> formed <yatsar> man <'adam> of the dust <`aphar> of <min> the ground <'adamah>, and breathed <naphach> into his nostrils <'aph> the breath <n@shamah> of life <chay>; and man <'adam> became a living <chay> soul <nephesh>.

The Hebrew uses "breath <n@shamah> " the biology only.

Ge 7:22 All in whose nostrils <'aph> was the breath <n@shamah> <ruwach> of life <chay>, of all that was in the dry <charabah> land, died <muwth>.

Only here are both Hebrew words together in one place.

Prove to me the "spirit" is a whole talking speaking immortal thing that is the man apart from the body? You can't, because there are no texts in the torah? To me ruwach means medium, the way the HS administrates the communion of GOD within us as a n@shamah of living.

D: "Really – this is why Jesus could appear out of thin air – walk through walls – and re-ascend at will
R Does this surprise you?

Ac 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Lord caught away Philip, hyperspace, beam me up Scottie. Can't GOD do anything he likes with matter, even flesh? You limit God to your own experiences.

Are you saying Jesus scars Thomas saw was not His old body?

D: "So – you deny scripture – when it says we shall be changed
R what needs changing in our body Dave?

The aven in it. That is all. The RA embedded in it. The DNA with it's logical errors. In other words remove the SIN from our bodies physically too.

The sin-offering first removes our spiritual sins, immediately,  but not our physical sins of RA, these are gradually removed later, one at a time. See Exodus 23:30. Our complete restoration takes time, as a relationship is a time process too.

D: "You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit
R there you go again.

OK define your term, do not mess about, define your term.

What do you mean? Use torah to back up your statments.

Nicodemus asked tthe same question, how can a man be born again?
Jesus said you have to be born again of spirit... what does this mean?

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

If Scripture is so easily understood, why isn't Scripture easily understood?
How is a man born again?

I showed you my only text, now you show me, Scripture.

Be sure to detail what "spirit" means,
Shalom

[Dave]

R Our own thoughts do and can talk to us, true, so can the Devil talk to us, but GOD also talks to us via the conscience:
I agree – you can have a conversation with yourself – we often do as we struggle between yester ra and yester tov

Again in the NT, our conscience is a talking medium, where GOD talks to us.
You are denying these Scriptures?

If you think your thoughts are equal to the voice of God as he spoke to many in the ahl and agl
Then you really are stuck in animal land

D: "You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit
R why do you say I keep denying the spirit? I do not deny the HS? Explain yourself better?
NO Robert – I am not speaking of the HS – and you know exactly what I mean
I am speaking of your spirit – and my spirit – the spirit of man – the spirit within man

D: "You refuse to see beyond the animal – you deny the spirit
R there you go again.
OK define your term, do not mess about, define your term.
Be sure to detail what "spirit" means,

In the ocean – the term fish means multiple different and independent life forms in the water
In the sky – fowl is a term used to describe many different and independent flying things of the air
In the ground – ants is a term used to describe many different and independent life forms of the ant hill
On the ground cattle is a term used to describe many different and independent cows in the pasture
People is a term to describe many different and independent people

In the heavens – outside of this 3D universe - in the invisible spirit realm
Spirit is a term used to describe many different and independent life forms (spirit beings)
Who lives in heaven – angels – and angels are different and independent spirit life forms (spirit beings)
Who lives in heaven – God – who is spirit – the Holy Spirit – who is Christ (Spirit Beings)
Who also lives in the –invisible heavens – evil spirits – deceiving spirits – all different and independent life forms – (spirit beings)

Who else is in heaven = man – as a spirit being – different and independent from one another
And this spirit being (man) – comes into this world at conception and now we are having a physical souljourn – on a mission to remember and witness the Glory of God
Upon mortal death of our physical body – our immortal soul is released back into heaven as spirit for judgment
If you die in Christ – only your animal mortal body dies – our immortal soul retunes to God as First Fruits
At the final judgment - judged - angelic spirit beings - archon spirit beings - false prophets - both spirit beings and man spirit bings - and sinner spirit beings are cast into the Lake of Fire - which iis the Second Death - the death of spirit

D: "There are many ways to increase your beliefs
Your relentless addiction to SDA satanology – is a strongly held conviction – much faith in SDA satanology
R are you kidding, there is not a single SDA person who understands amanuah as I do, my brother Pastor of SDA has read my writings, maybe only him, a little. The rest know nothing. I am alone in their study.
Are you kidding – all SDA hang their hat on their SDA satanaology – as you do
D: "But your SDA has taught you to elevate satan as worship
R your write mocking words Dave, I do not mock you, or your Gnostic words.
Do you deny that when you look at creation – you deny that is an intelligent design by God – but a corrupted design by satan
TO WHOM DO YOU GIVE THE CREDIT – THE POWER – and the PRAISE
As long as you insist that satan is all powerfull - and can uspurp God's Will -I will mock your satanology

D: "Really – this is why Jesus could appear out of thin air – walk through walls – and re-ascend at will
R Does this surprise you?
If Jesus is just a 3D mortal body of flesh – then yes it would surprise me that he could appear and disappear or walk through walls – not many bodies of flesh can do that – show me another body of flesh that can do that

D: "So – you deny scripture – when it says we shall be changed
R what needs changing in our body Dave?

1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Please read scripture– all of it together as a whole – not pick-a-verse satanology

[Dave]

Dec 4, 2020 15:09:22 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Nicodemus asked the same question, how can a man be born again?
Jesus said you have to be born again of spirit... what does this mean?

If Scripture is so easily understood, why isn't Scripture easily understood?
How is a man born again?

Several points to consider
1- belief is a hope – faith is a belief held strongly – with conviction
Each and every prophet spoke of a personal relationship with God – a two way conversation
A two way conversation that is NOT a figment of your conscious
So powerful of an experience that –belief / faith changed into – a firsthand gnosis (knowledge)

IF we listed all the named characters of the ahl +agl – they all have a firsthand knowledge (gnosis)
David – John the Baptist – the disciples after the resurrection – all had firsthand gnosis (knowledge)
Of all the Jews that lived before Christ – many had firsthand knowledge (gnosis)
There were (statistically) many more – unsung heroes for the Lord

Through the history of the Roman Church – many had firsthand gnosis (knowledge)
There were (statistically) many more – unsung heroes for the Lord

Today in the church – many have firsthand knowledge (gnosis)
(statistically) there are many more – unsung heroes for the Lord

2- can you worship your way to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? – no

3- can you learn your way to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – no
To be Born Again is not reward for education

4- can anyone force God to respond – this is testing God
Can anyone get on their knees and force God to Baptize you in the spirit – no

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless My Father who sent Me draws him

2Ti 1:9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling—not because of our deeds but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Messiah Yeshua before time began,

Christ given to man before the end of ‘Day One’ – man was there in the heavens

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

YES! - Jer 1:5 – remember and witness God Glory to this world – that is our mission

Joh 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I selected you so that you would go and produce fruit, and your fruit would remain.


The attempt to force God to do something is just testing God

Instead

Act 3:19 (TLV) Repent, therefore, and return—so your sins might be blotted out,
Act 3:20 so times of relief might come from the presence of Adonai …

Act 3:19 (YLT) reform ye, therefore, and turn back, for your sins being blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Act 3:19 (KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

What is repentance – true repentance – is it just a promise to do better? – NO

The Exegesis on the Soul - The Nag Hammadi Library
For the beginning of salvation is repentance. Therefore (cf. Acts 13:24), "Before Christ`s appearance came John, preaching the baptism of repentance."

And repentance takes place in distress and grief. But the father is good and loves humanity, and he hears the soul that calls upon him and sends it the light of salvation. Therefore he said through the spirit to the prophet (cf. 1 Cl 8:3), "Say to the children of my people, 'If your sins extend from earth to heaven, and if they become red like scarlet and blacker than sackcloth, and if you return to me with all your soul and say to me 'my Father!', I will heed you as a holy people.'"

Again another place (Is 30:15), "Thus says the lord, the holy one of Israel: "If you return and sigh, then you will be saved and will know where you were when you trusted in what is empty."

Again he said in another place (Is 30:19-20), "Jerusalem wept much, saying, 'Have pity on me.' He will have pity on the sound of your weeping. And when he saw, he heeded you. And the lord will give you bread of affliction and water of oppression. From now on, those who deceive will not approach you again. Your eyes will see those who are deceiving you."

Therefore it is fitting to pray to God night and day, spreading out our hands towards him as do people sailing in the middle of the sea: they pray to God with all their heart without hypocrisy. For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves. Indeed, it is in order that he might know who is worthy of salvation that God examines the inward parts and searches the bottom of the heart. For no one is worthy of salvation who still loves the place of deception.

Psa 51:16 (KJV) For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Psa 51:19 (TLV) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves.

A broken spirit only cries out to the Creator
A heart filled with doctrine only seeking the SDA good God of the controversy – might be looking in the wrong direction

[Deleted]

R Again in the NT, our conscience is a talking medium, where GOD talks to us.
You are denying these Scriptures?

D If you think your thoughts are equal to the voice of God as he spoke to many in the ahl and agl
Then you really are stuck in animal land

R You are denying these Scriptures, Dave, You don't believe GOD talks you via your conscience do you?

D Spirit is a term used to describe many different and independent life forms (spirit beings)
Who lives in heaven – angels – and angels are different and independent spirit life forms (spirit beings)

R OK. Where is this torah text that the term "spirit" refers to different spirit beings?

I do get your idea angels live differently than humans, I think? So little written about angels, so I do not have much to say about them.

D Upon mortal death of our physical body – our immortal soul is released back into heaven as spirit for judgment
If you die in Christ – only your animal mortal body dies – our immortal soul retunes to God as First Fruits
R You write confusing terms: You could say

Upon mortal death of our physical body – our "spirit body" is released back into heaven as spirit being for judgment.
If you die in Christ – only your animal mortal body dies – our "spirit body" returns to God as First Fruits

Before your mixing terms, nepesh is a term that is flesh + breath of breathing/Ruwach (HS).
So looking at nepesh it has two general terms in it, flesh and Ruwach (HS), which you term as a "spirit being" given to mankind by GOD.

You also write that this spirit being is immortal, yet can be cast unto a Lake of Fire and therefore spirit being can end, so the spirit being is not immortal is it?

Your terms are not clearly defined, nor is there any evidence of this in Scripture.

You say angels are "spirit beings", yet they don't have free will like man, and yet man has free will and is a "spirit being" ? How can you have differences in the same term? And if these "spirit beings" are immortal, how is it they were given by GOD? Something given is not by definition, immortal.
Only elohiym is immortal.

D TO WHOM DO YOU GIVE THE CREDIT – THE POWER – and the PRAISE
As long as you insist that satan is all powerfull - and can uspurp God's Will -I will mock your satanology

R Dave, I have never said any of this.

Once long before man existed "cherub chata" tells me the highest ranking angel near the Godhead sinned. This free will angel chose to sin more over time, causing other angels to also leave their first estate (what Jude says). Than there was war in heaven (what Rev says) so the angel assumed to take over the Most High (what Isaiah says). So the Father banished all these angels to planet earth (what Rev says). This leaving GOD caused darkness, chaos and entrophy to run over the earth, as these sinning creatures wanted their individual freedom without much of GOD's power in their lives. This is why the earth was void, formless and dark.

After the sin problem, the other countless sinless creatures wondered what now? Is the Father a tyrant or a God of love?

So the Son and the Father decided to deal with this sin problem, by creating a world that could, if chosen, do both sides of relationship with GOD, live under RA, a condition GOD allows in a sinning world, or live under tov, what GOD naturally prefers to live under. So our Creation is special and while it was also perfectly tov, it also had the presence of sinning with it, from the sinning angels who lived there.
God was kind enough to limit the sinning angels to the chief sinning angel, and the test to a single act of disobedience, the eating of one special tree.

Also GOD spoke to Adam and Eve for over 30 years about this sinning angel, and to be wary of him, lest you sin as He sins. So the sinning angel waited and waited for a weakness in Eve.

But you even deny this angel sinned in getting Eve to sin.

You deny GOD made a perfect world for Adam.

You keep on saying Satan created this RA world of man? Your Gnostic writings say this? I don't believe a bar of anything like this. Only GOD created man, the angels just looked on, and never took part. Only GOD can create, angels are just like mankind, we can engineer somewhat like God but we cannot make matter exist from nothing. Only God can do this. You have in Gnostic writings the HS gave creative powers to some archon she created without her consort. Really Dave, you're the one bragging about Satanic creative act's over man, I never entertain such a thing.

Only God created man. The angels only looked on in praise. The sinning angels were banished on earth and never allowed to take part. The terrible fall of our perfect world came from Adam's sin, but the RA that entered only came in because GOD designed it that way. Nothing to do with Satan, Dave. Maybe after Satan gained control of Creation and Man after sin came, Scripture says Satan sowed weeds, but nothing during the fall of man and the subsequent fall of Creation because of man's sin.

Now this is plain writing from me, it's not all SDA, but most is, since our meetings you have taught me something about darkness during Creation.

D If Jesus is just a 3D mortal body of flesh – then yes it would surprise me that he could appear and disappear or walk through walls – not many bodies of flesh can do that – show me another body of flesh that can do that
R Can't GOD override the natural laws of matter? Why does this surprise you. Philip experienced "beam me up Scottie" didn't he? Can't GOD do miracles? Why don't they happen today? Lack of faith.

D Please read scripture– all of it together as a whole – not pick-a-verse satanology


R "1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Dave, the context here is about "tekon of GOD or "huios of GOD ?

When we become children of GOD "tekon" does this also mean we become "son" (huios) of GOD? How much do we become like Jesus? This is the overall context.

D Each and every prophet spoke of a personal relationship with God – a two way conversation
A two way conversation that is NOT a figment of your conscious
R so if a two way communion is possible via your conscience, why do you deny this and yet write this is so?

D So powerful of an experience that –belief / faith changed into – a firsthand gnosis (knowledge)
R you adding confusing here. If God talks back to me, I have joy. No need for anything to be added. Simple divine to creature talk. Wow. Problem is most people deny the presence of the "Spirit". Like you do, it's just your yester rov talking to you, not GOD, you say.

D "For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves.
R How does one pray hypocritically?

My answer to this is not doing amanuah? But than you have not studied amanuah with me? So have I got the understanding of amanuah wrong?
It is important to me that you read through my amanuah studies, surely the torah has to make sense?
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm  

I would love your comments on how we get amanuah?
Shalom

[Dave]

D If you think your thoughts are equal to the voice of God as he spoke to many in the ahl and agl
Then you really are stuck in animal land
R You are denying these Scriptures, Dave, You don't believe GOD talks you via your conscience do you?
Sure Robert – scripture says God spoke directly to Moses, to Paul, and to many more
And you think those scriptural references are just a little voice from your conscious
But – you claim – you don’t diminish or belittle God and His presence


D Spirit is a term used to describe many different and independent life forms (spirit beings)
Who lives in heaven – angels – and angels are different and independent spirit life forms (spirit beings)
R OK. Where is this torah text that the term "spirit" refers to different spirit beings?

1Ki 22:20 Then Adonai said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ One suggested this and another that,
1Ki 22:21 until a certain spirit (H7307 – רוּחַ - rûach) came forward and stood before Adonai and said, ‘I will entice him.’ So Adonai asked him, ‘How?’
1Ki 22:22 And he said: ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit

(H8267 - an untruth; by implication a sham (often adverbially): - without a cause, deceit (-ful), false (-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.)+(H7307 – רוּחַ - rûach)

D Upon mortal death of our physical body – our immortal soul is released back into heaven as spirit for judgment
If you die in Christ – only your animal mortal body dies – our immortal soul retunes to God as First Fruits
R You write confusing terms: You could say

Upon mortal death of our physical body – our "spirit body" is released back into heaven as spirit being for judgment.
If you die in Christ – only your animal mortal body dies – our "spirit body" returns to God as First Fruits

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE except for you to argue words

Before your mixing terms, nepesh is a term that is flesh + breath of breathing/Ruwach (HS).
So looking at nepesh it has two general terms in it, flesh and Ruwach (HS), which you term as a "spirit being" given to mankind by GOD.

So – you are saying there is no such thing as independent and individual beings – everyone everywhere angels, demons, and man are simply the HS

You also write that this spirit being is immortal, yet can be cast unto a Lake of Fire and therefore spirit being can end, so the spirit being is not immortal is it?
So your God is mortal – just a man with a beginning – just as all mortals - and cognitive mind
Im (not) mortal – will never suffer a mortal / physical / corporeal death

God will never suffer a mortal death
Angels will never suffer a mortal death
Archon will never suffer a mortal death
And the soul of man does not suffer a mortal death

If you say that they do – then all your beings are just flesh

You say angels are "spirit beings", yet they don't have free will like man, and yet man has free will and is a "spirit being" ? How can you have differences in the same term?

Man is different
Man is the creature that can choose
Man is the only creature that is both (spirit body) + (animal body)

There I uses your wording – is it easier to understand

I always said man = (spirit + (animal Body)) – and you cannot understand this
Now I’ll say man = (spirit body + (animal body)) – this is much different

Angels are only spirit bodies who love, praise, and serve God
Ants do what they do – fish do what they do – and angels do what they do – by assignment from God
Ants were created for their function – fish were created for their function – so were angels

Archon were created differently – with some matter – and by the left hand
Regardless - they were created for a function and they do what they do by assignment from God

Man is an animal with instinctive yester ra – SELF preservation – it comes with being an animal
Man also has a soul – a spirit body – that is the home of yester tov

Man is the only creature who can choose

And if these "spirit beings" are immortal, how is it they were given by GOD? Something given is not by definition, immortal.
Only elohiym is immortal.
You stumble over words in English as well as Hebrew
Immortal is not the same word as eternal

D TO WHOM DO YOU GIVE THE CREDIT – THE POWER – and the PRAISE
As long as you insist that satan is all powerfull - and can uspurp God's Will -I will mock your satanology
R Dave, I have never said any of this.

You live and breath it

Dec 3, 2020 13:48:06 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Rob replies:
I suggest to you that GOD does NOT ever create a world like this,

Once long before man existed "cherub chata" tells me the highest ranking angel near the Godhead sinned.
The highest ranking heavenly being is MAN – man will judge the angels
Man is the sinner

This free will angel chose to sin more over time, causing other angels to also leave their first estate (what Jude says).
Not only can you God NOT make a perfect world
You God cannot even create love in another beings – beings specifically created to love and praise
1/3rd of all God’s creation TURN ITS BACK ON GOD because of your satan
But – you claim – you don’t diminish or belittle God and His presence

Even if I yield to say Rev 12 means that the dragon and 1/3rd of all the heavenly belings were cast to earth
Then as a Gnostic I would say – 1/3rd of all the heavenly beings must have been the archon – the offspring of the dragon

Than there was war in heaven (what Rev says) so the angel assumed to take over the Most High (what Isaiah says).
WOW – you dark side is so powerful – can war against God Himself – can oppose God
Even tho scripture clearly says no one can oppose God – you deny that scripture to empower your satan
But – you claim – you don’t diminish or belittle God and His presence

So the Father banished all these angels to planet earth (what Rev says).
YES! – this was your war – God said get out and they left kicking and screaming – because that is what they do

This leaving GOD caused darkness, chaos and entrophy to run over the earth, as these sinning creatures wanted their individual freedom without much of GOD's power in their lives. This is why the earth was void, formless and dark.
Correction – the darkness was created to hide away the ugly archon – the Abyss – Gahanna or Tartarus

After the sin problem, the other countless sinless creatures wondered what now? Is the Father a tyrant or a God of love?
OH – now your God is a tyrant - But – you claim – you don’t diminish or belittle God and His presence

So the Son and the Father decided to deal with this sin problem,
OH – so God doesn’t create out of love
God is forces to react by your powerful satan
God plays defense to your satan's offense
I think this jusr pagan talk

But you even deny this angel sinned in getting Eve to sin.
Even if the serpent lied – evidently lying is not a sin
Eve lied – and nothing happened – until she deliberately choose to disobey a law given by God

THE CONTEST

Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”

H342 – אֵיבָה - hostility: - enmity, hatred. - between you and the woman - between your seed and her seed

Not between satan and God
Not even between Good and Evil

The Contest - - hostility: - enmity, hatred – Is between MAN and Archon

D "For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves.
R How does one pray hypocritically?
Dear Mormon God, who used to be man that became enlightened – please forgive my sins
Dear Allah – please help me kill Christians today
Dear Zeus – I brought fresh fruit for you – please make it rain
Dear SDA feel good only God – please tell the other gods I said hello and every day I pray you will save me again today
Dear SDA God – please don’t take away your salvation
Dear SDA feel good God – I hope you war with the evil god is going well

I would love your comments on how we get amanuah?
What does it matter if you spend it all on the wrong god

How much amanuah does it take for a Muslim to be a suicide bomber?
Man that has to be faith with conviction!
Is this really the goal – to become a blindly obedient as possible to a doctrine

Personal relationship is the goal – if you gnosis God as a fact you become new – you change

Christians all make this to be some magical type of event – look Jimmy is not retarded anymore
Look David never gets mad again – and always has nice thoughts because he is a Christian now
David used to be manic depressive – now he is cured – no more mood swings

What a bunch of religious crap – Paul found that being a Born Again Christian was troubling

Rom 7:14 (TLV) For we know that the Torah is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold to sin.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand what I am doing—for what I do not want, this I practice; but what I hate, this I do.

Rom 7:21 So I find the principle—that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
(evil is present in me = yester ra = SELF = animal) + (one who wants to do good – yester tov / soul / my true self / my spirit body)
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Torah of God with respect to the inner man,
(Torah of God with respect to the inner man – yester tov – soul / my true self / my spirit body)
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts.
(the law of my mind / brain / biology / animal) = (law of sin which is in my body parts – biology – animal)
Rom 7:24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
(rescue me / my true self / my spirit body / my soul) FROM (an animal body of mortal death)

Miserable man that I am!
I didn’t realize how much I need the Divine Pardon until after my conversion
As a believer – I could tell myself – I’m OK – I’m trying hard – I’m not that bad
As a Gnostic – I can only apologies to God for being so blind

Repentance - why does the Gnostic text suggest - repentance takes place in distress and grief.
Jesus told Peter – before the cock crows Peter will deny Christ three times
Peter defensively proclaimed no way – not happening – not possible
Imagine – Peter’s heart – his broken spirit – a broken and contrite heart – when the rooster crowed

Just to mouth the words - "I'm sorry" - I promse not to do it again till next time
Does not compare with Peter's pain and tears screaming shame from his heart
No words necessary - no words adaquite

R How does one pray hypocritically?
As a believer – I could tell myself – I’m OK – I’m trying hard – I’m not that bad
As a Gnostic – I can only apologies to God for being so blind

[Deleted]

D: "So – you are saying there is no such thing as independent and individual beings – everyone everywhere angels, demons, and man are simply the HS
R

Creatures require GOD to make them living? Is this correct?

This does not imply God is you, but that GOD allows you to develop you as you, from your free will.

Simple. That is what the medium Hebrew word is saying.

Stop saying you can control the medium, you can't. Only GOD controls the medium.

D: "God will never suffer a mortal death
Angels will never suffer a mortal death
Archon will never suffer a mortal death
And the soul of man does not suffer a mortal death

If you say that they do – then all your beings are just flesh

R Hmm?

Who is immortal? Only God is.

Creatures require GOD to stop them from dying. So only GOD is living.

Matter cannot live without GOD.

"God will never suffer a mortal death", GOD is not of matter, so yes correct.

But you ignore my definition of death. Death is the dissolution of relationship to GOD.

 "Angels will never suffer a mortal death"
I see. So angels have spiritbodies that cannot die? So if they enter the lake of fire, angels cannot die?

:Archon will never suffer a mortal death"
I see. So we expect archons testing us in the future new heavens the the new earth than?

D: "Man is different
Man is the creature that can choose
Man is the only creature that is both (spirit body) + (animal body)

There I uses your wording – is it easier to understand

R wow, not heard of this before... weird... where is your torah on this?

D: "Angels are only spirit bodies who love, praise, and serve God
Ants do what they do – fish do what they do – and angels do what they do – by assignment from God
Ants were created for their function – fish were created for their function – so were angels

R do you have proof ants cannot praise God from free will?
do you have proof birds cannot praise God from free will?
do you have proof trees cannot praise God from free will?

I told you about Alex the grey parrot, loved her master, based on free will, NOT a programmed response.

This on the balance of probabilities suggest to me, all animals have have ability to praise GOD.

But only the character development of man, is recorded by GOD and credited to our records in heaven.

D: "Archon were created differently – with some matter – and by the left hand
Regardless - they were created for a function and they do what they do by assignment from God

Not a single torah to say this...only your Gnostic writings say this, not the torah of Moses.

D: "Man is an animal with instinctive yester ra – SELF preservation – it comes with being an animal

R instinctive? no, our Self came from Adam's sinning, inherited in us.


-------------------

D: "You God cannot even create love in another beings – beings specifically created to love and praise

R OH, so you think GOD cannot create creatures perfectly with love?
Why did these angels sin? They chose to. Are you saying God has to control even free will?

You don't have angels with free will do you? In that case angels could not sin. But they did sin.

You ignore "cherub chata" verse, and so make up an entirely different theology.

You don't follow Hebrew torah at all.

D: "1/3rd of all God’s creation TURN ITS BACK ON GOD because of your satan
R Is that bad? Not God's fault. If I choose not to follow GOD, how is this God's fault?

D: "Even if I yield to say Rev 12 means that the dragon and 1/3rd of all the heavenly belings were cast to earth
Then as a Gnostic I would say – 1/3rd of all the heavenly beings must have been the archon – the offspring of the dragon
R not offspring, angels cannot procreate. ALso you make archons into something that is not of angelic origin. Scripture torah does not suggest this idea. You follow Gnostic Greek ideas, not Hebrew torah.

Yes one sinning angel talked millions to other sinning angels to follow him, rather than God. Free will choice.

D: "WOW – you dark side is so powerful –
R your weird, what's powerful about darkness? Even slept in a cemetry all night? I have many times, no powerful things in it at all, all are dead and quiet.

D: "Even tho scripture clearly says no one can oppose God
R Really?

Baalim opposed GOD and died as a wicked one.
Simon Magnus opposed GOD and died as a wicked one.
Even GOD opposed Baalim blocking his way on the road as an opposer to his journey.
Clearly the Hebrew word exists in Scripture for a reason.

R: "Is the Father a tyrant or a God of love?
D "OH – now your God is a tyrant -
R Can't your read a question, is has a LOGIC OR in the question STEM?
A question cannot become a statement unless the reader is biased. I never said GOD is a tyrant. I say GOD is always a strong authority of LOVE.

D: "OH – so God doesn’t create out of love
God is forces to react by your powerful satan
God plays defense to your satan's offense
I think this just pagan talk

R Well is more logical than your ideas:-

"That God is both hate and love.
That God can do killing and loving creatures.
That God creates only flawed worlds, not perfect worlds.
That God intentionally creates creatures sinning by program, to test humans to not sin".

Your ideas are so weird, and so unloving. Cruel and illogical even.

D: "God is forces to react by your powerful satan
R Why did you use the word "force" ? Love never forces anyone....
Only satan uses force, removes free will.
God never removes free will.

D: "God plays defense to your satan's offense
R Are you sure? Where is your proof ? How did God react to the Opposer over Job?
Who knew the outcome before it began? God did. The opposer didn't know.

D" Even if the serpent lied – evidently lying is not a sin
R today under the royal torah, lying is a transsgression, rule 9.
In Edenic days, the royal torah was not given, it was just one rule, do not eat one tree.
Does this mean the serpent was also free from all those royal torah rules also?
I don't think so. The war in heaven tells me, the sin was defined by creatures breaking laws.
SO the laws defining sin exist for angels.
The same laws for defining sin, was simplified to one rule for Eden. It made the demands on the humans easier.
God is love, so make love easy to do, one rule.
However the serpent did lie, Eve's lie, assuming it was, was not credited as sin to her.

D: "until she deliberately choose to disobey a law given by God

R correct

D: "Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”

H342 – אֵיבָה - hostility: - enmity, hatred. - between you and the woman - between your seed and her seed

Not between satan and God
Not even between Good and Evil

R you don't read Hebrew torah very well, do you?
So the Seed only refers to man not God?
The woman is just a reference to woman, not the HS?

Ps 2:7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 ¶ Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(KJV)

What's here? A prophecy. ABout whom, Yahsuah-YHWH, the SON of Elohiym, who is a SEED.

Verse 12 says "kiss the SEED" not Son, the KJV had a strange context, so they assumed to make it easier for readers, it really means Seed, but refers to a divine Son, who is the Seed.

Another word for Seed is Word, another simile.

SO this crushing is entirely over the Divine crushing the head of the SIN problem.
Your so off course with your ideas.

Would you read my study on this? spiritualsprings.org/ss-1531.htm

D: "Dear SDA feel good only God – please tell the other gods I said hello and every day I pray you will save me again today
Dear SDA God – please don’t take away your salvation
Dear SDA feel good God – I hope you war with the evil god is going well

R you mock. I don't mock you.

R I would love your comments on how we get amanuah?
D What does it matter if you spend it all on the wrong god
R OH, OK, than our discussions have to end, you choose not to be saved??

D: "Miserable man that I am!
I didn’t realize how much I need the Divine Pardon until after my conversion
R Yes
There is a torah, sow seed with tears.

D: "As a Gnostic – I can only apologies to God for being so blind
R I am inviting you to read Hebrew, not Greek ideas
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm  
Shalom

[Dave]

D: "So – you are saying there is no such thing as independent and individual beings – everyone everywhere angels, demons, and man are simply the HS
R This does not imply God is you, but that GOD allows you to develop you as you, from your free will.
Stop saying you can control the medium, you can't. Only GOD controls the medium.

So – you are an independent person – but you are just the HS not you
This is SDA lodgic? Just sounds like political double speak

"Angels will never suffer a mortal death"
I see. So angels have spiritbodies that cannot die? So if they enter the lake of fire, angels cannot die?
:Archon will never suffer a mortal death"
I see. So we expect archons testing us in the future new heavens the the new earth than?
You choose not to see
You only wish to corrupt scripture to suit yourself
The Lake of Fire is the second death – the death of spirit
But you deny the spirit – so you cannot see

Man is the only creature that is both (spirit body) + (animal body)
R wow, not heard of this before... weird... where is your torah on this?
Gen 2:7 – but you deny the spirit - so you cannot see
Rom 8:16 The Ruach Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
Joh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

D: "Archon were created differently – with some matter – and by the left hand
Regardless - they were created for a function and they do what they do by assignment from God
Not a single torah to say this...only your Gnostic writings say this, not the torah of Moses.
Does it threaten you that I think your satan network is a pathetic a lost race of beings
Do – you hold your satan in such high regard – that you will not allow him to be slandered

D: "Even if I yield to say Rev 12 means that the dragon and 1/3rd of all the heavenly belings were cast to earth
Then as a Gnostic I would say – 1/3rd of all the heavenly beings must have been the archon – the offspring of the dragon
R not offspring, angels cannot procreate. ALso you make archons into something that is not of angelic origin. Scripture torah does not suggest this idea. You follow Gnostic Greek ideas, not Hebrew torah.
Archon are not angels - they were created differently - and creatures of matter have offspring
Just because our catholic doctrine has hidden the creation story of the demons and devils - does not mean it does not exist

You passover the text of Lillith or the shedim
You deny that King Solomon - the wisest man of all time - knew anything and all of his input is to be hidden away and held in ridicule

Just as you passover the 23 + 49 verses about satan
if they do not support your doctrine - toss them out

Just as you deny the lodgoic of man and his ability to see God in creation
You refuse all of it - to hold to your doctrine

Your UFO neighbor and you live in the same world
His is filled with reality - yous is filled with satanology and denial
You guys live in two different worlds and are unable to communicate
What a good witness for God's Glory you are - because you can only see SDA doctrine - not reality

Yes one sinning angel talked millions to other sinning angels to follow him, rather than God. Free will choice.
OMG – Praise satan – he is so powerful and God is so weak and cannot even control his own heavens or creation

D: "OH – so God doesn’t create out of love
God is forced to react by your powerful satan
God plays defense to your satan's offense
I think this just pagan talk

R Well is more logical than your ideas:-
It is only more logical is satan is strong and powerful - praise satan and all his power
It is only logical if your satan is the offensive player and your weak God has to play catch up and defense

"That God is both hate and love.
Isa 45:6 so they may know, from the rising to the setting of the sun, that there is no one besides Me. I am Adonai—there is no other.
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
That God can do killing and loving creatures.
Exo 12:29 So it came about at midnight that Adonai struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh sitting on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn cattle.
Who do you think Adonai is? = your satan not God?
That God creates only flawed worlds, not perfect worlds.
You opinion only – God said it was tov – I have no idea why you do not believe God

That God intentionally creates creatures sinning by program, to test humans to not sin".
You do not understand the word sin
You think everything is a sin – I can even quote you as saying – if Isa 45:7 is true then that makes God a sinner
You think if God tells the angel of death to kill the firstborn of all Egypt - it is a sin for the angel to obey God
You think if God tells satan to do his worst to Job - it is a sin for satan to obey God
1 Kings 22 - this ruwach became a decieving / lying ruwach

Question - why does the SDA teach it is a sin to obey God?

D: "Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”

H342 – אֵיבָה - hostility: - enmity, hatred. - between you and the woman - between your seed and her seed

Not between satan and God
Not even between Good and Evil

R you don't read Hebrew torah very well, do you?
So the Seed only refers to man not God?
The woman is just a reference to woman, not the HS?

So SDA logic says – Adam fell – therefore satan hates God
It is just doctrine that you keep reading into the text

Dear SDA feel good God – I hope your war with the evil god is going well
R you mock. I don't mock you.
Is this not the point of the SDA GREAT CONTROVERSY - two opposing gods locked in a struggel between good and evil - how can I be mocking you?
As long as you promote satan as a powerful god – I will call you on it
God is absolute – no one can oppose God – no one can force God to do anything

R I would love your comments on how we get amanuah?
D What does it matter if you spend it all on the wrong god
R OH, OK, than our discussions have to end, you choose not to be saved??
If you want me to give up my spiritual relationship with my Creator – you are only going to be disappointed
Once you stick your hand into the fire - you no longer believe - you have FIRSTHAND GNOSIS
I embrace the spirit – you deny the spirit

Joh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

You deny this is possible – you say it is a sin to even think of such a thing.
Spirit talking to man is only our biological conscious and our only hope is the grave

Your satanology fails you –
If you choose NOT to be the First Fruits – how can you be
How can you be born again of spirit – if you deny the spirit
AND - WHY is it a sin to obey God?

[Deleted]

D: "So – you are an independent person – but you are just the HS not you
This is SDA lodgic? Just sounds like political double speak
R If I made a robot with neural network sensors, ability to think and react and do,
Does this mean everything the robot does comes from me? no

I am just the robot's creator. The robot has life to do as it sees fit.
Is this logic so hard for you?

D: "Gen 2:7 – but you deny the spirit - so you cannot see
Rom 8:16 The Ruach Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
Joh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

R Gen 2:7 does not say (spirit body) + (animal body)

It says flesh empowered by divinity makes the flesh living.

Now enter sin, and you have a flesh fallen with DNA chaos etc. SO the flesh is able to die. No longer perfect.

So GOD offers a renewed way to get the fallen flesh restored as before the sin corrupted it. How?

The recreative powers of the compassion centre by the HS, known as salvation.

It's not a independent spirit, but that changes to your flesh, renewed by the HS, into a new way o f thinking.

Nowhere in Ps 51, does David imply a second spirit enters our animal body.

The Ruach Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Yes, the HS witnesses the changes to our flesh that our flesh is becoming renewed by the HS, and this process is called "our spirit" because we are essentially "us" becoming like GOD.

You have to prove from Scripture that ruwach is a spirit body separate to animal body that becomes a soul. Creation is NOT animal body + spirit body.

Creation is animal body + divine energy that allows matter to become living matter.

The divine part entering humans is a force from GOD, not a spirit body that is immortal given to you.

If this were so, you should be able to control your spirit body upon animal body death, but you can't. Scripure says so plainly.

R: "Not a single torah to say this...only your Gnostic writings say this, not the torah of Moses.
D: Does it threaten you that I think your satan network is a pathetic a lost race of beings
R I am not threatened. You cannot supply one torah about archons to begin with. Such a term doesn't exist in Scripture to begin with.

All you have is Greek 746, arche meaning first, or beginning.

Jude 1:6 And <te> the angels <aggelos> which kept <tereo> not <me> their <heautou> first estate <arche>, but <alla> left <apoleipo> their own <idios> habitation <oiketerion>, he hath reserved <tereo> in everlasting <aidios> chains <desmon> under <hupo> darkness <zophos> unto <eis> the judgment <krisis> of the great <megas> day <hemera>.

This verse relates arche to aggelos, suggesting the angels in the beginning left their love with GOD and began sinning. Judgement, Dave is only about those who sin.

D: "Archon are not angels - they were created differently
R not according to Jude 1:6

D: "Just because our catholic doctrine has hidden the creation story of the demons and devils - does not mean it does not exist
R Nothing in the torah is hidden, it's Hebrew and anybody can read the received Text.

D: "You passover the text of Lillith or the shedim
You deny that King Solomon - the wisest man of all time - knew anything and all of his input is to be hidden away and held in ridicule
R Hmm? Our torah that comes to us, was validated by Dead Sea Scrolls. I hear your plight, but sacred men chose the torah I have today. Moses torah is a beginning. No mention of lillith there, or shedim

But mention of serpent, a saraph. Who deceives Eve and Adam to sin. Why do you look for another answer?

D:"Just as you passover the 23 + 49 verses about satan
if they do not support your doctrine - toss them out

R All these verses say the context of 'satan' is about oppose/opposing/opposer.

Don't you agree with this?

If Bible speaks of relationships, than you require a oppose/opposing/opposer, word meaning?
Is this not true?

D: "You do not understand the word sin
You think everything is a sin – I can even quote you as saying – if Isa 45:7 is true then that makes God a sinner
You think if God tells the angel of death to kill the firstborn of all Egypt - it is a sin for the angel to obey God
You think if God tells satan to do his worst to Job - it is a sin for satan to obey God
1 Kings 22 - this ruwach became a decieving / lying ruwach
R These are valid verses for your ideas Dave,
I don't have convincing opposing views on these verses, but you are not wanting to view GOD as a God of love, as Scripture says, but look at the rarer negative comments.

Isa 45:7 is about shadows and light, you can make shadows of ra, without doing ra itself.
I have answered this one, I feel.

"You think if God tells the angel of death to kill the firstborn of all Egypt " first the destroyer, is not an angel, it's the HS, a medium, so GOD is removing his powers of living from certain creatures under Pharoah's care.

I answer this before saying God is NOT wounding those here. He gave them 9 signs to repent to GOD, and only this time removes his gift of living.... this is not murder.... it's the strange act of doing what the people want...they don't want GOD. So if you don't want GOD, you choose non-existence.

1 Kings 22 - this ruwach became a decieving / lying ruwach. Hmm? It doesn't say the Medium becomes a lying medium. What does it say

1Ki 22:21 (YLT) `And the spirit goeth out, and standeth before Jehovah, and saith, I--I do entice him; and Jehovah saith unto him, By what?

1Ki 22:22 (YLT) and he saith, I go out, and have been a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets; and He saith, Thou dost entice, and also thou art able; go out and do so.

Verse 21 says the Medium will go... Not as most translations "a medium, but the medium"
The Medium becomes a medium of falsehood.

This seems to suggest the Medium becomes evil? Notice another clue from other verses:

1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

The Hebrew does not separate The Medium from the RA Medium, unlike KJV tries to.
Does God really do RA, as this suggests? no it says the Medium departed Saul, and a RA Medium took over Saul.

One has to understand where does this RA medium come from?
Another question is to ask who is the father of Ra?
Or who is the father of sinning?

Isa 45:7 does not suggest God is the father of RA, but only creates RA, but allowing RA to happen because SIN demands RA to happen. But who does the SIN? Surely not GOD Himself, but the SINNER?

You seem to think when God creates RA, God is OK doing sin to create RA.

You seem to think God enjoys removing life from those who refuse to have life.

A sinner should not be allowed living, as only God is living and sin opposes GOD.

SO if a sinner is alive at all it is because GOD's love is bigger .

You do not in your theology have a real origin of sin, except that GOD created it.
God did not create Sin, nor can GOD create sinning creatures, calling this OK.

D: "Is this not the point of the SDA GREAT CONTROVERSY - two opposing gods locked in a struggel between good and evil - how can I be mocking you?
R Scripture says to fight the good fight of amanuah, not talk about satan, an opposer?
Fight the good fight of talking about Jesus. That is my goal.

D: "no one can oppose God – no one can force God to do anything

R correct

But this does not stop the SIN problem from happening. You do not have a true origin of SIN, only that GOD created Sin and Sinning creatures, and called this OK?

D: "I embrace the spirit – you deny the spirit
R what spirit?

D: "AND - WHY is it a sin to obey God?
R God told a prophet to bake with human dung. The prophet refused.
Does this answer your question?

God follows His own royal torah rules written with his own finger.

Creating creatures that intentionally sin, is an abomination . Sin is transgress of law.
Law defines love and the qualities of love. God follows His own laws.

A miracle is GOD going beyond his ownn phhysical laws, but GOD cannot go beyond his own moral laws.

God never told the opponent to kill and destroy, God only said do not take his life.
What did the opponent do with Job? Influenced men to kill and destroy.
You call this obedience? I call this sin, wickedness and pure evil, something GOD is NOT.

The opponent was doing exactly what he was, opposing God, and his right's of love over Job.

Shalom

[Dave]

D: "So – you are an independent person – but you are just the HS not you
This is SDA lodgic? Just sounds like political double speak
R If I made a robot with neural network sensors, ability to think and react and do,
Does this mean everything the robot does comes from me? no

YES! = everything comes from the creator

I am just the robot's creator. The robot has life to do as it sees fit.
Is this logic so hard for you?
I totally agree with these statements
Where we differ is upon mortal death – when the robot dies – you say the life ends
I and the Rabbi say – life lives

The divine part entering humans is a force from GOD, not a spirit body that is immortal given to you.
So the life within us is just God
And by the way – you still do not understand what mortal means – it is a simple English word

Jude 1:6 And <te> the angels <aggelos> which kept <tereo> not <me> their <heautou> first estate <arche>, but <alla> left <apoleipo> their own <idios> habitation <oiketerion>, he hath reserved <tereo> in everlasting <aidios> chains <desmon> under <hupo> darkness <zophos> unto <eis> the judgment <krisis> of the great <megas> day <hemera>.

This verse relates arche to aggelos, suggesting the angels in the beginning left their love with GOD and began sinning. Judgement, Dave is only about those who sin.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha – this would be so funny if it wasn’t so sad
The adjitive arche belongs to the word estate – not angels
Proof you do not even try to translate – you just word pick

D: "Archon are not angels - they were created differently
R not according to Jude 1:6
Jude 1:6 says nothing about their creation

D: "Just because our catholic doctrine has hidden the creation story of the demons and devils - does not mean it does not exist
R Nothing in the torah is hidden, it's Hebrew and anybody can read the received Text.
Show me the formula for ammonium triphostphate
Show me the engineering behind the telephone or the internet
These things exist – they must be in your Torah

You sound just like Pope Urban the VIII
“If Galileo saw mons around Jupiter through his telescope the moons must be inside the telescope because that are not in scripture!”

D: "You passover the text of Lillith or the shedim
You deny that King Solomon - the wisest man of all time - knew anything and all of his input is to be hidden away and held in ridicule
R Hmm? Our torah that comes to us, was validated by Dead Sea Scrolls. I hear your plight, but sacred men chose the torah I have today. Moses torah is a beginning. No mention of lillith there, or shedim
Hmmm? Gnostic text were also discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls –
And the Dead Sea Scrolls validate them as well as a major part of the Essenes library

D:"Just as you passover the 23 + 49 verses about satan
if they do not support your doctrine - toss them out
R All these verses say the context of 'satan' is about oppose/opposing/opposer.
Don't you agree with this?
All these text say satan opposes man not God
You deny this!

Isa 45:7 is about shadows and light, you can make shadows of ra, without doing ra itself.
I have answered this one, I feel.
I see – you say God makes ra- but doesn’t do ra Himself
I say – God doesn’t do ra Himself – He has a staff for that – and I am wrong

"You think if God tells the angel of death to kill the firstborn of all Egypt " first the destroyer, is not an angel, it's the HS, a medium, so GOD is removing his powers of living from certain creatures under Pharoah's care.

So then – you admit it – the Holy Spirit is a killer
But – you also say that the Holy Spirit is not God – it is a different and separate being from God

1Ki 22:22 (YLT) and he saith, I go out, and have been a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets; and He saith, Thou dost entice, and also thou art able; go out and do so.

Verse 21 says the Medium will go... Not as most translations "a medium, but the medium"
The Medium becomes a medium of falsehood.
YES! This spirit becomes a satan
You claim – that the Holy Spirit is actually satan – but you wouldn’t elevate sartan in his position would you

You seem to think when God creates RA, God is OK doing sin to create RA.
Ra and sin have nothing to do with one another
A volcanic explosion is ra – it is not a sin
For my dog to die – it is not a sin
For a fruit to rot and decay to give new life – is not a sin

You do not in your theology have a real origin of sin, except that GOD created it.
God did not create Sin, nor can GOD create sinning creatures, calling this OK.
Sin is the choice not to seek God
Sin is the choice not to obey God
Eve disobeyed God when she took from the fruit – not Adam – Eve did it
The very first recorded evidence of a being disobeying God is Eve
Cherub chata is a metaphor about a man – every man - Eve

But this does not stop the SIN problem from happening. You do not have a true origin of SIN, only that GOD created Sin and Sinning creatures, and called this OK?
You love to misrepresent me – to make you point
But if you misrepresent the my text – you just appear desperate top make a point

D: "I embrace the spirit – you deny the spirit
R what spirit?
There ya go – man has no spirit – any talk of spirit to spirit communion is impossible

D: "AND - WHY is it a sin to obey God?
R God told a prophet to bake with human dung. The prophet refused.
Does this answer your question?
NO – you evade the question – God sent the angels on specific task to perform to facilitate Gods will

Creating creatures that intentionally sin, is an abomination . Sin is transgress of law.
Law defines love and the qualities of love. God follows His own laws.
So God transgressed His own law to make man – this is your theology

[Dave]

Dec 9, 2020 4:38:31 GMT -5 @robertt said:

D: "Is this not the point of the SDA GREAT CONTROVERSY - two opposing gods locked in a struggel between good and evil - how can I be mocking you?
R Scripture says to fight the good fight of amanuah, not talk about satan, an opposer?
Fight the good fight of talking about Jesus. That is my goal.

D: "no one can oppose God – no one can force God to do anything
R correct

But this does not stop the SIN problem from happening. You do not have a true origin of SIN, only that GOD created Sin and Sinning creatures, and called this OK?

First you claim – that we are to fight the good fight
My Question - what are you fighting against?
According to you – satan opposes God not man

Second – you agree that no one can oppose God –
My Question – if you agree then why do you insist that satan opposes God not man

You double speak – you are not consistent

[Deleted]

D: "Where we differ is upon mortal death – when the robot dies – you say the life ends
I and the Rabbi say – life lives

R I see. But Dave, you know only the Great Uncaused Cause is living. Matter, quantum, atomic energy alone cannot ever be living. Only God is living. Matter cannot be living.
But you say the Great Uncaused Cause is able to give matter a part of itself, and this is called a "spirit entity that is living" ?
Is this possible? No

Can I, the creator of my robotic machine, of electronics, computer code and algothimns give my complex machine, a part of myself, that makes me different from my Creation? No, I can't.

Every programmer is puzzled by this, for example, EMOTIONS cannot be programmed by code, you can sort of emulate something, but it's not truely possible. WHY? Because EMOTIONS do not come from our matter, they are I believe a response from divinity, some spark that comes from the breath of divinity that keeps on empowering us.

So this is about as far as I would move in your idea direction, and I am happen to move your way, because not everything about human life is easy to fathom. This "spark" is a divine presence from GOD, that does more to the relationship with matter than most people realize, so Jews take it a bit too far, while I don't.

All I can say is, the Medium that is partnered to you, both entities of our soul work together as "one" similiar to our human marriage, they are a compound unity upon our living, and the mortal death is a simile of our divorce, so the divine medium simply returns to GOD, and the relationship is over for now. Sure I get your view when the relationship is over, the Spirit Entity lives. But the relationship is over. You cannot say the spirit entity is "you", it's not, it's just the medium that allowed the Father to empower you with divinity, the only power the lives.

This is why evolution as a process is dead. Rocks cannot become living. DNA alone is not living. You can squash a mozzie with all conponent machinery there, but it's spark of living is gone? So life has to have something that does not come from matter, but from the divine. So this makes evolution in totality impossible, as divinity is not of matter.

What you're doing is saying divinity can give man a part of divinity to become our own? Sorry I cannot see this. It cannot be possible.

YOur GNostic writings suggest the CHief Yalobaeth took power from its Mother to create things in mankind on its own, while having a sinning attitude. This my friend is totally impossible. Totally weird. and totally wrong. . Not based on GOD and His torah.

If you are allowed to create anything using GOD's power flowing through you, it is because God wills this, you have to be humble, meek and loving in order for this even to occur, and it is GOD flowing via you as a medium, that this power creation works.

If it is not like this, the spirit empowering you comes from the father of lies, the satan, the creature who first sinned in the heavens.

D: "So the life within us is just God
R Yes correct

D: "Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha – this would be so funny if it wasn’t so sad
The adjitive arche belongs to the word estate – no angels
Proof you do not even try to translate – you just word pick
R Happy you laughed. Well show me a verse where both arche and angels exist, where the arche is not of angelic origin, but a created creature by GOD to test man? You can't. There isn't any text. That's why you laugh.

D: "Jude 1:6 says nothing about their creation
R correct. but it does say many angels left their beginings, and sinned....so now face judgement?
Is this correct?

D: "Show me the formula for ammonium triphosphate
R Hmm? Hebrew is a language not about details, only about functional verbs.

Ge 6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

According to models discovered on the mountain, the ark seems to be of 72 ribs, making 144 ribs on both sides of a long beam, using laminated timber and pitch? The details are lacking, but the boat was built.

Are you mocking that demons don't exist? Of course they exist. They are sinning angels , banished to earth, awaiting judgement, and a final end.

D: "Hmmm? Gnostic text were also discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls –
And the Dead Sea Scrolls validate them as well as a major part of the Essenes library
R Yes, this is why I respect your presentation all this time.

I have a copy of James Barr in my library too, but I hate the contents of his book. He has done more to destroy Hebrew than any other person.

You said yourself, one must study our enemies.

D: "All these text say satan opposes man not God
You deny this!
R really?

A sinning angel approached Jesus and said to Jesus, bow down and worship me?
Is this a sin to ask this question even , Dave? Y/N?

Was this angel asking Jesus as a Man only or as a GOD as well?

It doesn't matter because the question asked is a sin, and a sin by definition is opposing GOD, hence why the Hebrew term "satan" opponent/oppose is used.

D: "I say – God doesn’t do ra Himself – He has a staff for that – and I am wrong
R That woudl still make GOD the author of the RA, the sin and the evil. In our world it's also a crime. AN accessory to the crime.

D: "So then – you admit it – the Holy Spirit is a killer
But – you also say that the Holy Spirit is not God – it is a different and separate being from God
R how can the HS be a killer, it's just a medium. The Father is the source of living. DOes not the Father have the right to remove His living in creatures, if they refuse to accept it?

The command "no wounding" is not speaking of removing living, it's referring to the removal of your right to access GOD and make a choice to be eternally living.
Does your choosing have limits of time? Yes, we all live under probation.

D: "The Medium becomes a medium of falsehood.
YES! This spirit becomes a satan
R wow, you twist.

Take the metal medium, the gun. The gun is not a killer. It only takes the users choice to do, and empowers that choice with violent explosion, using the power from GOD, who also has His energy packaged in the quanta.
It's the choice above the medium that causes the flow of action into the medium, not the medium at all is doing anything but obeying the users wishes.

D: "Ra and sin have nothing to do with one another
A volcanic explosion is ra – it is not a sin
For my dog to die – it is not a sin
For a fruit to rot and decay to give new life – is not a sin

R pardon, I would disagree. Anything not perfectly flowing from GOD is missing, and by definition a sin.
So when you drink coffee the poison in the drink makes you less functional and is a sin on your part.
The cosmic rays that enter our bodies to damage the DNA is the result of a sin somewhere in the universe, the original sinning of Adam.

In a perfect Eden the ground was red-brown, not black, no humus there, nothing ever died. All food was eaten and no pooh ever came out of any animal. Weird I know. But you ignore the power of perfection God is capable of.

D: "The very first recorded evidence of a being disobeying God is Eve
R maybe
D: "Cherub chata is a metaphor about a man – every man - Eve
R Dave a poetry simile is used to explain one world different from ours using pictures our world has, so we can understand things. You say all poetry is fiction. It's not fiction. It's real, but different.

Jesus said a poetry that caused most Jews to leave him. He said unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh there is no living in you?

This is a metaphor about a man ? Yes. But hard to fathom.

The cherub that chata is real, but from a different world to ours, hence the poetry.
If you deny this poetry you also deny Jesus living in you, also explained by metaphor.

D: "You love to misrepresent me – to make you point
R sorry I am not trying to belittle your views, I like you because you are willing to discuss.
I wish SDA would discuss. They don't. Not even my Pastor will discuss. But you do.

Sin did not originate from GOD.
Sin is a relationship that opposes GOD.

D: "God sent the angels on specific task to perform to facilitate Gods will

R Yes.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
(KJV)
This also uses the term "ruwach" so maybe angels help the HS in helping humans choose salvation?

----------------------

D: "So God transgressed His own law to make man – this is your theology
R what laws did God transgress in creating man?
---------------------------------------

D: "First you claim – that we are to fight the good fight
My Question - what are you fighting against?
According to you – satan opposes God not man

Second – you agree that no one can oppose God –
My Question – if you agree then why do you insist that satan opposes God not man

You double speak – you are not consistent

R: Yes something is wrong between us

My question to you is, what are you fighting against?
Your answer is our own inherent yester ra.
What are we fighting for ?
Your answer is the godly yester tov GOD placed in us, but we forget to do.
This model has no origin of sin, except both tov and ra were created in mankind from the beginning. We have creatures of RA testing man to do RA. Our journey is to disdain the RA and do the tov.

My question to me is, what are you fighting against?
My answer is SIN.
What are we fighting for ?
My answer is we are fighting to use Jesus words of promised power, and sow those words of power in our minds daily. As we support Jesus in this way our love response to HIs salvation gift to us, bears fruits of His love in us. Such a doing we do is not earning our salvation, but our responding to His salvation flowing in us. Summarized in one word: this word is amanuah.

Now these two models are different between us. I could tell you where our first SIN came from that caused our propensities of sin to be inherited, that would Adam. I could tell you further where Adam's sinning influence came from, and that would a sinning angel who deceived Eve to sin.

But the bottom line is my model speaks of SIN, and how God and Man both overcome the sin problem.

Shalom

[Dave]

D: "Where we differ is upon mortal death – when the robot dies – you say the life ends
I and the Rabbi say – life lives

R I see. But Dave, you know only the Great Uncaused Cause is living. Matter, quantum, atomic energy alone cannot ever be living. Only God is living. Matter cannot be living.
But you say the Great Uncaused Cause is able to give matter a part of itself, and this is called a "spirit entity that is living" ?
Is this possible? No

What you're doing is saying divinity can give man a part of divinity to become our own? Sorry I cannot see this. It cannot be possible.

D: "So the life within us is just God
R Yes correct

What you are quoting is called Dianetics

L. Ron Hubbard Dianetics - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Dianetics
Dianetics (from Greek dia, meaning "through", and nous, meaning "mind") is a set of ideas and practices regarding the metaphysical relationship between the mind and body created by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. Dianetics is practiced by followers of Scientology and the Nation of Islam (as of 2010).

All of us are God because we are each just a piece of God within us

What a bunch of pagan crap!

If I have a herd of 100 cows – each cow is unique and different from the other – an individual
Each angel is a unique and different individual angelic being – an angelic spirit being

Why do we call them spirit – BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT 3D FLESH AND BONE
They are different from mortal animals – not made of 3D matter from our reality
Is each angel – just a piece of God – NO
Each angel is an independent and unique spirit being

Each man is a unique spirit being – an individual spirit body – unique and different from all the other spiritual entities- this has nothing to do with biology and the brain or your mind
YOU DENY THE SPIRIT

First you say
You cannot say the spirit entity is "you", it's not, it's just the medium that allowed the Father to empower you with divinity, the only power the lives.

Then you say
All I can say is, the Medium that is partnered to you, both entities of our soul work together as "one"

So there is no you – it is just the power of God
Then BOTH ENTITIES – our soul – and another entity work together
So the power of God works with God
So what happen to the YOU in your example

You demand there is no YOU – then suggest that YOU and God work together

Your Gnostic writings suggest the CHief Yalobaeth took power from its Mother to create things in mankind on its own, while having a sinning attitude. This my friend is totally impossible. Totally weird. and totally wrong. . Not based on GOD and His torah.

1- CHief Yalobaeth took power from its Mother to create things in mankind on its own,
The archon does not create – he procreates – there is a huge difference that you choose to ignore word man
Man procreates – cows procreate – things of matter procreate
Create domains for himself – as in any man carving out his own homestead – community - nation

2- while having a sinning attitude.
The archon are self-centered – they are self-driven – this I agree with
Is this a sin? – NO
A cow is 100% self-centered – the cow is not given the opportunity to choose salivation
A cow is just an animal – there is nothing there to save – no soul to save
A cow is just an animal – with a biological brain that has the ability to think
And what does a cow think – self=-preservation – INSTINCT
Instinct comes with being an animal
Does a cow sin – NO
Baboons wreak havoc and chaos throughout the jungle – because they are just self-driven selfish animals
Do baboons sin when they cause trouble – NO
It is just what they do

Man is different that all the other animals – because man has a soul which is the home of yester tov
But you say man has no soul – no spirit within – we are just like ants and cows
You deny the spirit

D: "Jude 1:6 says nothing about their creation
R correct. but it does say many angels left their beginings, and sinned....so now face judgement?
Is this correct?
The archon were ejected from heaven in Gen 1:2 and hidden away in the choshek - Agree


D: "Show me the formula for ammonium triphosphate
R Hmm? Hebrew is a language not about details, only about functional verbs.
Yet – you demand that details are not possible because they are not in the Torah
You argue both sides of your own argument

Are you mocking that demons don't exist? Of course they exist. They are sinning angels , banished to earth, awaiting judgement, and a final end.
So – not only can you satan changed himself from an angel to a devil
But now all the angels changed form into demons
As if a cow could change into a pig

Gen 1:12 each according to its species, each according to its species. (Plants)
Gen 1:21 according to their species, according to their species.
Gen 1:24 according to their species.
Gen 1:25 according to their species, according to their species, each according to its species.

But according to you – angels can change their own species into different creatures
Precept upon precept – you preach it then deny it

D: "All these text say satan opposes man not God
You deny this!
R really?
Shall we revisit all 23 + 49?

A sinning angel approached Jesus and said to Jesus, bow down and worship me?
Is this a sin to ask this question even , Dave? Y/N?
Was this angel asking Jesus as a Man only or as a GOD as well?
Questions are not a sin
AND – if satan here was sent by God to ask the question – as God uses satan all throughout scripture – then no – it it not a sin to obey God

Jesus – the Son of Man – MUST be tested and tempted as every man – or He is an unworthy sacrifice
Christ – the Son of God – is beyond temptation – PROVEN BY JESUS CHRIST
This is extremely fundamental to Christianity – why have you been taught to deny this?

Is it a sin to ask question?
You have been asking me questions doubting the absolute sovernity of God
are you sinning now?

D: "I say – God doesn’t do ra Himself – He has a staff for that – and I am wrong
R That woudl still make GOD the author of the RA, the sin and the evil. In our world it's also a crime. AN accessory to the crime.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God is the author of ra – correct
Not only is God is an accessory - he ordered the hit upon Job - He sent the angel of death
Not only is He an accessory - He is the designer of all creation and His Will be being carryied out exactly as God Planned
God gave man the ability to choose – the ability to sin – correct
God’s love includes risk – your view – I agree
God is the author of the Prodigal Son – He loves us enough to let us go hoping that we return on our own

D: "The Medium becomes a medium of falsehood.
YES! This spirit becomes a satan
R wow, you twist.
So now you want to ague that a deceiving spirit – a lying spirit – is not a satan?

D: "Ra and sin have nothing to do with one another
A volcanic explosion is ra – it is not a sin
R pardon, I would disagree
Sin is a choice – how does a volcano choose to disobey God?

Sin did not originate from GOD.
God gave man the ability to choose – therefore God gave man the ability to sin
Sin is a relationship that opposes GOD.
Sin is not a relationship – sin is a choice to respect that relationship or not

D: "The very first recorded evidence of a being disobeying God is Eve
R maybe
D: "Cherub chata is a metaphor about a man – every man - Eve
R Dave a poetry simile is used to explain one world different from ours using pictures our world has, so we can understand things. You say all poetry is fiction. It's not fiction. It's real, but different.

Poetry is not literal – to say that a man fought like a tiger
In no way shape or form means that the man is a tiger with fangs and fur

D: "You love to misrepresent me – to make you point
R sorry I am not trying to belittle your views, I like you because you are willing to discuss.

I have hung out my shingle (do you understand that expression?)
In the old west – people did not display their college diplomas on the wall (because they had none)
You just hung up a sign – a shingle – a marquee

If that sign said doctor – then you were a doctor
If that sign said lawyer –then you are a lawyer

I wish SDA would discuss. They don't. Not even my Pastor will discuss. But you do.
The reason is – they are Roman Christian and they never have to defend their chosen doctrines

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Richard says – I should not encourage you

Here is the real reason behind their attitudes – YES I include you Richard (I know your reading)
Roman Christendom claims that they are protecting us by not allowing us to investigate demonology. Their argument is – if children play with a quwigi board - they are opening themselves up to possession
And there is scripture to validate their view

However, Rome has edited the attitude until today
People will actually argue that the Nag Hammadi is bunk because Rome never approved it
Rome is afraid that if you study demonology – the demons will draw you in and corrupt you

Gnostics are open to information – regardless of source – because all things point to the creator
Recognize what is in your sight

You have taught me several things
The use of the term SELF – I like it

What does an academic inquiry into demonology yield
Roman demonology is just Roman mythology and used for population control
Roman demonology is the worship of satanology

All evil – all ra – all sin – everything is credited to one single angel named satan who cherub chata
Then is one angel named satan – ruined everything everywhere – even convinced 1/3rd of all God’s angels to TURN AGAINST GOD

This is 100% satan worship – all praise to satan
You even take it so far as to think God plays defense

All of this thinking is satan worship – it is 100% Catholic – because it is 100% Catholic Mythology

I reject all this satan worship!

What was the truth before Rome?

First MYTH – Judaism did not use the Christian OT as their one and only Bible
Each Temple was exactly like the Deas Sea Scrolls – a collection of writings – a library
Did each temple have the same library – NO – they would share scrolls / writings

Rome took a collection of the most popular and authenticated it for Christians as the Bible
What did they leave out – many of the writings for study in the Temple were op-eds – writings of Rabbinic scholars - opinion pieces – let’s call these Extra Writings

The Rabbis never treated all of the library as scripture
They divided the writings into different groups – Torah - Neviʾim, and Ketuvim
They also had commentaries by Rabbinic scholars – the Kabbalah
They also had books now considered Gnostic – Enoch – the Book of Giants – the Book of Creation – Adam and Eve – Jashar
They also had Books considered MidRash – ancient thought

I have a Zohar – it is such a complicated read – and never yeild an answer but a set of up to five opinions
Rabbi A says this – but Rabbi B say another thing – and Rabbi C disagrees with both

Christianity has many different commentaries – Arthur Clark is one we share – do we hold these men as inspired – NO – it is just their learned opinion
Does every Christian Commentary agree – NO – sometimes they disagree a lot

The difference between Roman Christendom and Judaism =
The Christian will pick and choose which commentary they like best – and disregard he rest
Jews – keep all the opinions and discuss all the opinions – and it is so refreshing opposed to Christian one-way-ism

The difference between Roman Christendom and Judaism =
Rome encourages you to use commentaries to study and if you are a deep Christian student – you will study Rome
As for Rabbinic commentary – you were taught that the Jewish Kabbalah was satanic

Question – why is Jewish though satanic – while Rome embraces cherub chata and makes satan a god?

SECOND MYTH – the official Bible – Eastern Orthodox Bible – Coptic Bible – Syric Bible – the Catholic Bishops Bible and the Protestant Bible are not the same – as to books – as to verses – as to words

If you pick and choose Rome – admit that you are picking and choosing Rome

D: "God sent the angels on specific task to perform to facilitate Gods will
R Yes.
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits,
YES! They are all spirits (ruwach) serving the Lord – some good – some bad – BUT ALL in service to the Lord

----------------------

D: "So God transgressed His own law to make man – this is your theology
R what laws did God transgress in creating man?
I was asking you – it is your argument

Dec 9, 2020 4:38:31 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Creating creatures that intentionally sin, is an abomination . Sin is transgress of law.
Law defines love and the qualities of love. God follows His own laws.

Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous person on earth who does what is good and doesn’t sin.
D: "So God transgressed His own law to make man – this is your theology

---------------------------------------

My question to you is, what are you fighting against?
Your answer is our own inherent yester ra.
YES! – there is an inner struggle between SELF and Spirit striving to be reunited with God
Call it yester ra vrs yeater ton – OK – it is our inner struggle
There is also the external struggle – called life in archon land and the millions of ways mortal existence traps us – sidetracks us – with the obligations of Gen 3:15 – Life is hard
There is also the external struggle with ‘satan’s seed’ – the archon
AND – there is direct testing by God – through the staff he has for that
All of it causes man – and man alone and individually – to choose

What are we fighting for ?
Your answer is the godly yester tov GOD placed in us, but we forget to do.
I am not fighting for yester tov – I am fighting with my yester tov to =
To – remember God and return to full awareness as we once knew
To – remember our assignment – or mission – our commission from God before the womb
To remember the meaning of life – our purpose – the reason why we are here

To witness God’s Glory to all the nations

How do I do this – by what method has God provided for me to complete my mission
By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – God within us – Christ within us – Baptism of the Holy Spirit

When a prophet from the ahl says – God spoke to me – or God told me to say
To me – this is a hell of a lot more than their conscious

Each of them had a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with their creator
As you have a personal relationship with your wife – you don’t believe she is real – you don’t have faith she is real – you gnosis because you have firsthand / tangible knowledge of the FACT

This model has no origin of sin, except both tov and ra were created in mankind from the beginning.
Man is the only creature that can choose – so ma is the only creature that can choose to sin
Eve was the first to prove – all mankind are sinners

We have creatures of RA testing man to do RA.
We do? -I have selfish creatures – jealous that man gets dominion over their home archon land

Our journey is to disdain the RA and do the tov.
No do the tov – as a thing to do
But use the tov – to rise above the physical and remember
Use the tov – to embrace the spirit – to reunite with the Spirit in a spirit to spirit communion
To be Born Again –

My question to me is, what are you fighting against?
My answer is SIN.
Yet – you think everything is a sin – are you fighting against a crime in Africa
Be serious – you are fight against your own sin (that comes from your yester ra)
What are we fighting for ?
My answer is we are fighting to use Jesus words of promised power, and sow those words of power in our minds daily. As we support Jesus in this way our love response to HIs salvation gift to us, bears fruits of His love in us. Such a doing we do is not earning our salvation, but our responding to His salvation flowing in us. Summarized in one word: this word is amanuah.

You fight for words – and a daily dose
Question – why do you have to turn Christ on every day – do you have to remember your wife every day

Now these two models are different between us. I could tell you where our first SIN came from that caused our propensities of sin to be inherited, that would Adam. I could tell you further where Adam's sinning influence came from, and that would a sinning angel who deceived Eve to sin.
Cool Robert – you have someone else to blame it on
You are lucky you have someone else to blame it on –
A Jew and a Gnostic only have themselves to blame for their own choices