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Post by Dave on Nov 26, 2020 0:58:04 GMT -5
D: "OK – if you accept the trinity Explain how Christ the man can pray to God the Father –if your God is also Christ Explain what God incarnate means to you Both of these issues were stumbling blocks for you in the past
R How could you explain this when the Father and Son are just expressions of the same Person. There would be no need for communion, for praying of Jesus to the Father would there? Since you have One divine person, you also have one congitive mind. Why would one mind pray to itself?
Cool – I am going to love this conversation 1- one congitive mind 2- Why would one mind pray to itself?
an·thro·po·mor·phism the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.
Cognition is defined as 'the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses. ' (www.cambridgecognition.com)
So your God has a brain made of biology COGNITION mind But you say you do not diminish God or think of Him as a man
Spirit has no boundaries – the HS – the Spirit of God is omnipresent
Question – using your model – what if you and I both pray to God at the same time? Is God overwhelmed – can he listen in Australia and Colorado at the same time There are 7 Billion people on the planet – at any one time 1 Billion might be in prayer to God Does He hear each one individually? – of course he does – because he is God
God can transcend time – if He is in the future – does He leave the past? Stupid question – because God transcends time – is bigger than time – or space time
So your God has a brain made of biology COGNITION mind But you say you do not diminish God or think of Him as a man
2- Why would one mind pray to itself? First – you claim – two biological minds Second – you do not grasp prayer
Prayer is not one man talking to another man – with words Prayer = spirit to spirit communication / communion
Question – can God have a conversation with Bill in Africa and Walter in China at the same time Stupid question – God is omnipresent always and available to everyone at the same time This is why we call Him omnipotent and omniscient
So using your model – just how many biological mind gods do you need to speak to everyone at the same time everywhere? God is Spirit – if you feel God via the Spirit – it is God that you feel If you see Christ in the form of a man – it is God you see And God the Father never leaves His throne – because he is everywhere always
Jesus Christ = God in a carnal body (incarnate) - being within the body changes the spirit from a boundless form to a single locality - trapped within the body
In Prayer - the spirit enjoys rejuvinaltion from the spiritual realm - connection - communication / communion
How can God be in heaven and on the planet at the same time? The exact same way He can be here and in Africa and China and Poland - and and and all at the same time - He is God - He is omnipresent - He is omniscient - and He is omnipotent
Nothing at all like a man - with one mind!
D: "Explain what God incarnate means to you R Isn't this a mystery? How divinity took up humanity, in order to be our sin-bearer for sin-offering. No mystery Jesus the man = (soul + (animal)) Jesus Christ = (God + (animal)) Jesus Christ = (God + (Jesus)) Jesus Christ = (Christ + (Jesus)) and on the cross Christ returned to God in heaven - Jesus suffered a mortal death FRome the Heavens He came - walk among us as a man to witness - and returned to God
D: "OK – if you accept the trinity Explain why you insist that the HS is not God The Shadday (also expressed as a Medium 'HS') is a member of elohiym, just as the Father and Son are. But you deny that the HS has the same abilities and privileges as God – because your HS is not God If the HS = God – then she can do anything God can do – because She is God
R Hmm? Most religions believe in the immortality of the soul. Since the serpent said thou not die. CORRECT word man – no spirit ever has a mortal death – all spirit is immortal Upon the death of our mortal bodies – our immortal soul returns to God
And most believe when we die we are living in heaven, or purgatory? Since the serpent said thou not die Correct – some are FIRST FRUITS – and some are enduring Proportional Punishment And if you are First Fruits or if you survive Proportional Punishment – your name will be in the Book of Life And we will not die – the gift of eternal life – I agree 100%
It's the greatest deceptions of all time. Sure its a sin. I see – Eve can lie – and that’s OK But if you think the serpent lied – that is a sin Sounds like a double standard / double speak - inconsistant
D: "If angels are not spirits – what are they R Yes OK, I can accept this idea Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (KJV)
R: "Yet torah says angels also sinned, but you ignore these verses: D Why is this so important to you – does it affect your walk with God R it is important to understand who is the Father of Lies. But you claim the Father of lies never lied to Eve So your cherub chata = the serpent
and it was Eve herself who chose to sin. Eve didn’t choose to disobey God? – someone forced her – someone chose for her
Either we follow Jesus words, or your Gnostic writings? There is nothing Gnostic here Robert – you are attempting to divert
I stick to torah, the same serpent that spoke to Jews in Jesus times, is still the Father of Lies. So now the serpent of Eden is also the devil of the Gospels – and he is also the cherub chata
Boy how much credit you give your satan god – he does everything But you refuse to discuss the trinity of evil in Rev 20 – that is just satan + satan + satan WOW – your satan is amazing – and hates God also And refuses to obey God at ever chance – Oops! he obeys every time But if God asks satan to do something – satan surely refuses – Oops! Wrong again
Is the Scapegoat important too Jews on the day of Atonement? What did this goat represent? The Father of lies. How funny you give the credit to your satan (Wiki) What is the meaning of the scapegoat in Leviticus? The scapegoat was a goat that was designated (Hebrew: לַעֲזָאזֵֽל) la-'aza'zeyl; "for absolute removal" (for symbolic removal of the people's sins with the literal removal of the goat), and outcast in the desert as part of the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement, Sounds like the promise of Jesus Christ to me
You keeps praising your satan I’ll give my praise to God
D I say – anything God does is done in the name of God and it is not a sin Because my God is absolute R I see. If God cannot sin, why did God die for sinners? Why even have a sin problem? Because we are animals – and animals come with a complete yester ra package called – instinct Man = (soul + (Mind/Body)) Man = (yester tov + (animal)) Man = (yester tov + (yester ra)) And this is why man is the only creature that can choose
It does not say Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other "el's" before me. but Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other elohiym's before me. Why is that important? Because "el" is a single strong authority. And elohiym is many strong authorities. How do I know elohiym refers to many strong authorities? ARCHON – Yes I agree
El does not do ra Of course not – He created the ra – and has a staff for that
Question – who is the God of all these other gods You probably want to say your satan is the leader of all these evil gods OR - each and every 'other god' is just the same satan who singel handedly does everything
Jos 22:22 (TLV) “God of gods is Adonai! God of gods is Adonai! Jos 22:22 (KJV) The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, The G410 el of the G430 elohiym
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Post by Dave on Nov 26, 2020 12:09:14 GMT -5
R Hmm? Most religions believe in the immortality of the soul. Since the serpent said thou not die.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. The serpent did not lie
And most believe when we die we are living in heaven, or purgatory? Since the serpent said thou not die
Jas 1:18 By His will, He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all He created.
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits for salvation through sanctification by the Ruach and belief in the truth.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years. Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
The First Fruits are alive and well – in heaven – with God
This is the entire point of Christianity – be born again – a personal Pentecost – spirit to spirit But you and the SDA deny all of it But you and the SDA deny SPIRIT You say the goal is to be dead in the grave and wait for the first resurrection I say the goal is to be born again of spirit and become the first fruits NOW
It's the greatest deceptions of all time. Sure its a sin I agree – to deny spirit – to deny Pentecost – to deny First Fruits is all a sin Even the Jews of the ahl sought – a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP on a spiritual level
Deny God and scripture – because satan is cherub chata Yes – sounds like sin
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 13:50:29 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I wander through the opinions of men:
The serpent in the Garden of Eden did not lie, for after Adam & Eve ate of the tree of hidden knowledge, they did not die, and their eyes were opened and they knew good & evil but yea, the human race fell under the beguiling of the serpent in the Genesis myth) thence man descended fully from spirit into matter.Feb 15, 2011
Did Eve tell a lie when she said nor shall you touch it, lest you die? The narratives in Genesis are silent about God warning Adam, Eve or both not to touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil until Eve's claim that God says so: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die (Gen. 3:3). Did Eve tell a lie, exaggerate, say what she had heard from the husband, an angel or God Himself? Please give reason(s).
1 If we recall that the narratives in Genesis were written in the 1st Temple period, if I recall my linguistics correctly no earlier than the 9th century BCE, quite possibly more recently, it becomes obvious that they could not have been written as historical accounts, but rather theological. As such, this question becomes looking for an answer that the text never intended to give. I suspect though that whomever the author was, they would respond that Eve spoke according to her understanding of what she had been told, and then followed up with an observation about people who did not understand what the story was telling them. 2 Effah, Genesis 2:16-17 states "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." God told Adam and Adam probably told Eve not to eat of the tree. Satan deceived the woman by implying that God had lied. So she ate of the tree. When Adam realized what she had done, he was not strong enough to rebuke her he was a weak man. He followed her in this rebellion. They both became spiritually separated from God. They died spiritually. They were not pure and innocent anymore. They died spiritually. God did not lie. God told Adam he would die and he did. The natural death came later. Effah, do not let a rebellious woman lead you away from God told you not to do.
3 According to Gen. 2:16-17 ("And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou latest there of thou shalt surely die." ) God does not say that if Adam will touch the tree he will die. God says only that he shall not eat of it. God says these words to Adam, for Eve was not yet created. In Gen. 3:3 it is Eve that says to the snake: "of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die", that is not exactly what God said to Adam. Now, according to the logic, there are these possibilities: 1) Adam lied to Eve, therefore Eve did not lie; 2) Adam unwilling said to Eve a different version, therefore Eve (nor Adam) did not lie; 3) Adam said to Eve the exact words of God, but Eve lied; 4) Adam said to Eve the exact words of God, but Eve unwilling said a different version; 5) There was a special revelation to Eve by God that was not accounted in the Bible. According to the pure deductive logic, the question remains unsolved. If we want to give an interpretation above the pure text and its inner logic, we can say that Eve's words "nor shall you touch it" seem to give a bad image of God, such as a strict guardian. But, of course, it remains only a personal interpretation. What is not interpretation, but a matter of fact, is that the snake, i.e. the devil, is "the father of lies".
4 Interpretations and beliefs regarding Adam and Eve and the story revolving around them vary across religions and sects; for example, the Islamic version of the story holds that Adam and Eve were equally responsible for their sins of hubris, instead of Eve being the first one to be unfaithful.
5 If we are going to understand temptation, we must first know the tempter. The text of Genesis identifies the tempter as “the serpent” (Genesis 3:1), a creature whom Adam and Eve should have exercised dominion over (Genesis 1:28). The serpent is compared to the other beasts of the field yet characterized as “crafty” (arum). This word is used positively elsewhere in the Bible (“prudent” in Proverbs 12:16, 14:8) but it is also used in a negative sense, (Job 5:12, 15:5) such as the case in this narrative. The serpent is not only described as being crafty or cunning; Scripture also tells us that this creature spoke. The Bible later identifies this particular serpent as Satan (see Revelation 12:9, 20:2; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:3, 14). As Christians, we need to be aware of Satan’s devices so that we are not outwitted by him (2 Corinthians 2:11), for his nature is that of being a liar (John 8:44). Satan’s temptation of Eve in Genesis 3 gives us several insights into the nature of temptation that Christians should be alert to. Distorting God's Word
As Adam and Eve found out, there are only tragic consequences when we reject God’s Word as the sole authority for our lives. Temptation almost always begins by distorting authority. This was the approach Satan used when he came to Eve in the garden, taking God’s command and reshaping it, saying, “Did God actually say?” (Genesis 3:1). Satan’s words, which were designed to get Eve to debate God’s command, entertained the possibility that God did not know what was best. While God had commanded Adam not to eat from one tree, Satan told Eve it was “any tree in the garden.” In other words, Satan presents God as the cosmic killjoy, someone who comes along and likes saying no to everything and everyone. In his temptation, Satan did not just point to the tree and say, “Go on—eat it,” but he described reality in a way that is false. Satan’s first step in deceiving Eve was having her question the truthfulness of God’s word. As Adam and Eve found out, there are only tragic consequences when we reject God’s Word as the sole authority for our lives
Responding to Temptation Eve’s response to Satan’s temptation, which is often like ours, was initially appropriate: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden” (Genesis 3:2–3). So far, Eve is telling the truth. But her mistake was to set her sights on what God had commanded not to do rather than on what God had blessed them with (i.e., all the other trees in the garden). This often happens to us when we are tempted: we focus on what God has commanded us not to do rather than on all that he has already bestowed upon us as his children (cf. Ephesians 1:3). So, Eve exaggerates what God had forbidden: “Neither shall you touch it, lest you die” (see Genesis 2:17, 3:3). Yet, knowing enough of what God was like, Eve should have responded, “This is Eden. God made it, and it’s very good. It’s unthinkable that we should even challenge him. If he says not to do something, then it is for our good. Get out of here!” Eve’s response, however, entertained the possibility of standing in judgment over God, which leads Satan to challenge what God had said by telling her, “You will not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). Now, as a result of the deception, Eve has doubt in her mind and has fallen into unbelief.
The Half Truth in Temptation For temptation to be appealing, it usually contains some degree of truth. For temptation to be appealing, it usually contains some degree of truth. What Satan promised Eve was partly true, but its ultimate end was a lie. The truth was that by succumbing to this temptation, her “eyes will be opened” (Genesis 3:5), and according to God, they were (see Genesis 3:22). On the other hand, it was a total misrepresentation of what God had said. Satan’s lie was that “you will not surely die.” Adam and Eve’s mistake was to believe the lie of Satan over the truth of God and to think that they could determine truth for themselves. For us to try to determine truth apart from God is in fact saying, “I won’t accept God’s rules. I’ll make my own.” This determination is the beginning of idolatry. When God becomes too uncomfortable for us, we make our own rules. We fashion other gods, more domesticated gods, which are idols (Romans 1:22–23).
Denying the Consequences
When temptation comes, the first thing we usually do is deny or convince ourselves that there will be no consequences. The first denial of God’s words in Scripture was to deny God’s judgment. Often when Satan begins a fresh attack on biblical revelation, we first doubt whether there is judgement or not. For example, because of the idea of inherent human goodness in Western society, today people often say, “God surely wouldn’t send innocent people to Hell, would he?”1 Once you get rid of the idea of judgement as a consequence of our disobedience toward God’s commands, then you can entertain anything (racism, abortion, euthanasia, same-sex “marriage,” gender neutrality, covetousness), because people believe there are no consequences to their actions (see Judges 17:6, 21:25), particularly if it’s arbitrarily assumed someone’s good deeds can outweigh their bad (which Scripture makes clear is impossible; see biblia.com/bible/esv/Isa%2064.6
The Consequences
There are always consequences when we give into temptation, as Adam and Eve found out (Genesis 3:13–19). Although once naked and without shame, after they disobeyed God, Adam and Eve realized they were naked and became ashamed. In that shame, they were alienated from God (Genesis 3:7). Eve gave in because she saw that the tree was (1) good for food, (2) pleasing to the eye, and (3) desirable for gaining wisdom (Genesis 3:6). These temptations correspond to John’s description of the things of this world: “The desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16). This is a pattern of sin that runs through Scripture: (1) start listening to the creature instead of the Creator; (2) follow our own impressions instead of God’s instructions; (3) make self-fulfillment the goal. The prospect of these things seems good to life when in fact it leads to death. If you rebel against the God who gives life, what else is there but death?
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death (Proverbs 14:12). In light of Satan’s temptation of Eve, the Puritan Richard Sibbes exhorted believers, “In all temptations let us consider not what he offers, but what we shall lose.”\l "
Dealing with Temptation The temptation of Jesus by Satan (Luke 4:1–13) is counterpart to that of Adam and Eve and gives us insight in how to respond to temptation. Just as Jesus was tempted, so temptation will also come to those who follow him (Matthew 18:7). And the way we overcome temptation is by looking to the one who has already overcome the world (John 16:33). Just as Jesus was tempted, so temptation will also come to those who follow him (Matthew 18:7). After Jesus went into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, he was filled with the Holy Spirit when he returned (Luke 4:1, 14). The way Jesus overcame Satan’s temptation was not by denying God’s Word but by relying on it to defeat Satan in his temptations (Luke 4:4, 8, 12). Jesus overcame Satan’s temptations by quoting Scripture, saying to him, “It is written,” which has the force of or is equivalent to “that settles it.” Jesus understood that the Word of God was sufficient for this. Jesus also faced temptation in the Garden of Gethsemane when he prayed about his impending crucifixion, “Let this cup pass from Me” (Matthew 26:39). Nevertheless, he overcame it by committing himself to the Father’s will during the same prayer (Luke 22:42–44).
The good news is that Christians don’t face temptation alone, for we have a Savior whom we can go to and who has fought and struggled with temptation yet was always victorious (Hebrews 2:18, 4:15–16). Jesus’ life of obedience and faithfulness is an example to us when we face temptation since we have the same resources that he relied on to fulfill his ministry: the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and prayer (Ephesians 5:18, 6:17–
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Rob's comments, from these opinions of men:
The answers are rather unexpected Dave, nobody seems to follow your arguments. Notice it is Satan that lied first to Eve:
Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
The Devil questions God's loyalty? It's a killjoy question.
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
You say that death is something we experience in the future? You have a totally different definition of death to me, Dave, and hence why we have different view.
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Later I wander through my Hebrew English translator:
Ellen White comments on "dissolution"
They had looked with horror upon his shriveled form, and said, We cannot raise one from the dead; dissolution has already commenced. Not satisfied with the agony thus inflicted, they had declared that he was suffering the curse of God for his sins. All these things came fresh to their minds when they saw the sick man before them.
The sentence of death pronounced upon him by his Maker, which at first appeared so terrible to him, after he had lived some hundreds of years, looked just and merciful in God, to bring to an end a miserable life. As Adam witnessed the first signs of decaying nature in the falling leaf, and in the drooping flowers, he mourned more deeply than men now mourn over their dead. The drooping flowers were not so deep a cause of grief, because more tender and delicate; but the tall, noble, sturdy trees to cast off their leaves, to decay, presented before him the general dissolution of beautiful nature, which God had created for the especial benefit of man.
It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change.
If it were true that the souls of all men passed directly to heaven at the hour of dissolution, then we might well covet death rather than life. Many have been led by this belief to put an end to this existence. When overwhelmed with trouble, perplexity, and disappointment, it seems an easy thing to break the brittle thread of life, and soar away into the bliss of the eternal world.
And now the Lord of life and glory was dying, a ransom for the race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon him as ma n's substitute, that made the cup he drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. Death is not to be regarded as an angel of mercy. Nature recoils from the thought of dissolution, which is the consequence of sin. {3SP 161.2}
Rob's comments: "When Jesus died on the cross, it was a broken heart that died, this means the relationship to His Father and Mother became broken.
Death is the consequence of sin, and brings in dissolution. This means when Adam and Eve sinned, entropy, chaos, mutations, decay and such things of RA, all came flooding in immediately upon sin, because the relationship to GOD was broken, but not completely, because in His mercy GOD still loved them, and stays connected to them, despite the broken relationship.
This is the true defintion of death. It's a process because God loves us despite our sinning. Death comes in many forms, first there is daily dissolution, second there is sleep, and finally there is non-existence.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 27, 2020 13:15:40 GMT -5
I wander through the opinions (precepts) of men: The serpent in the Garden of Eden did not lie, blogs.depaul.eduDePaul – I know this campus – near my home in Indiana 100% Catholic The narratives in Genesis are silent about God warning I Agree – We do not have the complete story – we do not have all of the conversation between all the parties. All Catholic ASSUME the missing information is not important
1- William Mayor a Catholic priest 2- Liberty University = Jerry Falwell - Baptist pastor, televangelist, 3- Emanuele Angiola - Fu Jen Catholic University 4- Wikipedia – a Judeo-Christian centered source (Roman Christendom) 5- answersingenesis.org – in partnership with the Creation Museum of ICR The answers are rather unexpected Dave, nobody seems to follow your arguments. Notice it is Satan that lied first to Eve:Your right – no catholic would agreeAnd then you offer the astounding credibility of the Institute of Creation Research Why do you continually turn to a Catholic sourse for validation - yet calim not to be CatholicYou say that death is something we experience in the future? You have a totally different definition of death to me, Dave, and hence why we have different view. So – you do not believe in the gift of eternal life This is the entire point of being a ChristianRev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years. Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. The First Fruits are alive and well – in heaven – with God This is the entire point of Christianity – be born again – a personal Pentecost – spirit to spiritBut you and the SDA deny all of it But you and the SDA deny SPIRIT You say the goal is to be dead in the grave and wait for the first resurrectionI say the goal is to be born again of spirit and become the first fruits NOWDeath is the consequence of sin, and brings in dissolution. This means when Adam and Eve sinned, entropy, chaos, mutations, decay and such things of RA, all came flooding in immediately upon sin, (came upon man - because man sinned)You are Correct and I absolutely agreeRom 6:23 For sin’s payment is death, But as a Christian – I like to read the entire versebut God’s gracious gift is eternal life in Messiah Yeshua our Lord. And the serpent is correct – even tho we enter into mortal death – through Christ – we will survive the Lake of Fire Personally – I cannot imagine a true Christian claiming this promise is a lie
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Post by Dave on Nov 27, 2020 13:42:13 GMT -5
Dave , look up U tube video by Trey Smith
try this one? m.facebook.com/watch/?v=400574631131941&_rdr about donald trump, the ancient Hebrew Resh, He says look like Trump? Hmm? And the counterfeit Shin, the crown, coronavirus thing, take away out crown.
Really good video.
OH YA – I know all about Trey Smith HE is 100% GNOSTICWithout the benefit of the Nag Hammadi – he is still stuck I fallen angel alnd But – he preaches the Book of Enoch as valid scripture He preaches that the Nephilim of yesterday are the aliens and UFOs of today He preaches against 6 24hr days He preaches the Spirit ½ of this video revolves around Kim Clement Who is a spiritualist – 100% He preaches the prophetic nature of the Nation of Israel today He says all three Abrahamic religions are tied together into one bigger story The prophesies of ahl + agl + Koran all align He lives opn the fact that scripture has multiple means at multiple depths Israel has been Babylon – Assyria has been Babylon – America as Babylon – Rome as Babylon – Islam as Babylon – YES! The metaphor is alive Absolutely 180* opposite from – each word only means one thing and cannot refer to anything else He pretty much stands for everything you denyThe video – I don’t like Trey Smith as a presenter (My wife watched it all) If his videos were 15 minutes – I would watch them all But at 1hr long or more – I get bored with him Kim Clement – I have been following him for several years Kim was in association with Chuck Missler – whom I hold in very high regard I cannot watch Kim Clement on YouTube without breaking into tears He moves me – he moves the spirit within me
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 15:26:11 GMT -5
D He pretty much stands for everything you deny
The video – I don’t like Trey Smith as a presenter (My wife watched it all) If his videos were 15 minutes – I would watch them all But at 1hr long or more – I get bored with him
R this is good summary of Trey Smith... you are right... but He did know Ancient Hebrew. Funny how people mixed truth with false ideas....I didn't know about his other views.
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R You say that death is something we experience in the future? You have a totally different definition of death to me, Dave, and hence why we have different view.
D So – you do not believe in the gift of eternal life This is the entire point of being a Christian
R Eternal life (chay) is not a gift, its a person, who is the gift, called "salvation" or "yashua" the one who saves us, and as long you support his words in relationship to Him, every day, the ongoing presence of this divine person, guarantees you eternal life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life. Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: Re 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (KJV)
SO where does eternal life come from? From relationship. You have to remain sinlessly connected to Jesus, supporting Him for all eternity.
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D You say the goal is to be dead in the grave and wait for the first resurrection
I say the goal is to be born again of spirit and become the first fruits NOW
R What are the first fruits Dave? What did Jesus mean by being born of spirit?
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
How is one born of spirit?
Only David's prayer answers this question:
Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
David describes the mission for sinners here:
(1) Do something about the SIN problem in you. (2) Ask the HS to create a new "heart" in you, and daily this renewed right spirit comes into me...
(3) David labels this process coming from the "holy spirit", one of few places the Hebrew is named completely.
(4) Give me the joy of salvation.
(5) Than shall I go and help others discover your salvation.
This prayer is most powerful in what it says. The right spirit is the same idea as John who says
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Here is one passage, is explained the "sons of GOD", refers to those saved by GOD, not as you claim to be archons, or angels, having sex with humans, etc. Notice this passage lists three divine strong Authorities involved in salvation through their Son, but again you deny this words written here, it is just an expression of the same solitary being. And finally it says we saved humans become children and son of God, like a family picture. This makes Jesus our biological father, the one who redeemed us from SIN.
And now you say the "spirit" is some immortal gift man received from eternity, that makes us truly us. If that is so, how come the wicked ones lost this immortality at the lake of fire? Why does Scripture say only God is immortal and in the final journey to heaven, the raised ones "put on" immortality, in other words once connected to Jesus, remaining with Jesus, we have ongoing living in us via restored relationship. We also eat of the tree of life every month, another sign that ongoing living requires us to keep on keeping...doing what? Having that relationship.
If you think for one moment once your saved in heaven, you can jump for joy,
"I am saved, I am free to be on my own, do as I like",
you just made one sin already... nothing exists without God flowing in you and through you. You are never alone, your choice now is to serve GOD for eternity, and this begins Now.
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R: "Death is the consequence of sin, and brings in dissolution. This means when Adam and Eve sinned, entropy, chaos, mutations, decay and such things of RA, all came flooding in immediately upon sin,(came upon man - because man sinned)
D You are Correct and I absolutely agree
Rom 6:23 For sin’s payment is death,
But as a Christian – I like to read the entire verse
but God’s gracious gift is eternal life in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.
And the serpent is correct – even tho we enter into mortal death – through Christ – we will survive the Lake of Fire
Personally – I cannot imagine a true Christian claiming this promise is a lie
R You will have to detail all these words here...I am confused.... You cannot agree with me that death is a consequence of sin, causing RA, which brings in dissolution.
You have GOD creating a RA world before SIN came from Adam. I have a RA world came with dissolution AFTER Adam sinned.
GOD told Adam and Eve about an angel who sins and is a father of lies. Any creature who sins is by definition opposing God, but you deny this. You say the creature never sinned getting Eve to sin with her.
Ge 3:13 And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
The woman says the serpent sinned, and deceived me to also sin.
You also do not understand Romans 6:
Ro 6:23 For the wages of "sin-offering is death"; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)
This passage is not speaking to wicked people, but those who seek salvation. The wages of sin-offering is death. This is why sacrifice required death. The death was a symbol of life offered. In other words some innocent life died so you the sin-offering could receive life. But you a creature cannot die and live at the same time, because you're only a creature, so animals cannot offer you life. Only divinity can, hence only a member of heavenly elohiym could offer sinners life.
Where does the law say "life for life" for the death for death idea come from?
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Here, talking about mischief to the woman's womb with child.
Was Jesus born as a human from the womb of the HS?
Ps 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
This verse is remarkable, speaking of the HS and the "womb function"...
Yes, so Jesus came as our sin-offering, to exchange His death for His life.
How is this possible? Jesus had two sources of living in Him, being divine, with one source active, the other source inactive. The humanity part had the breath of life via the HS from the Father, was active.
The divinity part was not used to empower Jesus, was emptied so humanity could reign, but the divinity part was always there in Jesus, just not used or expressed, so inactive.
Upon the second death, Jesus gave us our humanity with the breath of life that was sinless, we take this perfect body of flesh, Jesus takes the body with scars, and uses His own divinity to empower this body in heaven.
That is why Romans 6 says the wages of sin-offering is death, but the gift of Jesus is eternal life. The verse is about Jesus, not sinners who sin, per se.
Does Scripture speak of wicked ones who sin?
Eze 18:4 ... the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (verb - not get death immediately)
Here is the defined fate for the wicked ones who sin...
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die (verb - not get death immediately).
How the Hebrew here, is this understood to mean, die in the future, or to begin dying now, immediately?
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
SO what is death defined as? Relationship to GOD.
SO if you break relationship, you die immediately. This does not mean God divorces you immediately upon sin, because God is kind. Relationships strain, and the process of divorce is sudden but with love.
Jeff Benner
V) ( MWT) — Die: [freq. 835] (vf: Paal, Hiphil, Hophal) |kjv: die, dead, slay, death| {str: 4191} Nm) ( MWT) — Death: [Hebrew and Aramaic] [freq. 163] |kjv: death, die, dead, deadly,
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure <chaphets> in the death <maveth> of him that dieth <muwth>, saith <n@'um> the Lord <'Adonay> GOD <Y@hovih>: wherefore turn <shuwb> yourselves, and live <chayah> ye. (KJV)
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure <chaphets> in the death <maveth> of him that dieth <muwth>, saith <n@'um> the Lord <'Adonay> GOD <Y@hovih>: wherefore turn <shuwb> yourselves, and live <chayah> ye. (Jeff Benner would agree with this)
Ge 2:17 thou shalt surely <muwth> die <muwth>. (KJV)
So this must read :
Ge 2:17 thou shalt dying <muwth> die <muwth>. (Jeff Benner)
The Hebrew does not have the idea of death completed here (maveth).
But the verb incomplete use of dying to die.
So the serpent lied, when it said:
Was it a higher plane of living to know a broken relationship, forcing GOD to restore that relationship with His own dissolution of relationship within the Godhead? No sinning brings on broken relationships, dissolution and chaos, ra and decay, as well as GOD trying to hold this chaos together using creative ra, so we humans have some probation time. You call this a higher plane of living?
Oh how grateful we are to have a Saviour who died for sin, but I would never have welcomed sin in our world.
Shalom my friend Happy Shabbat May GOD overlook our short fallings and accept our walk with Him. May we be ever mindful of the magnificence of His glory shed upon the Cross for us, that the mischief nature of SIN is removed for ever.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 27, 2020 23:32:50 GMT -5
R You say that death is something we experience in the future? You have a totally different definition of death to me, Dave, and hence why we have different view. D So – you do not believe in the gift of eternal life This is the entire point of being a ChristianDeath – to cease to exist – to stop - There are two deaths Mortal death Adam and Eve were made immortal If they had not disobeyed God they would have lived forever – still be here today But they did disobey and now all men are subject to mortal death – death of flesh Spiritual death = the second death in the Lake of Fire You will grow old – you will age – you will become infirmed – you will die a mortal death you say the "spirit" is some immortal gift man received from eternity, that makes us truly us. If that is so, how come the wicked ones lost this immortality at the lake of fire?First – word man – you do not understand the term MORTAL No one loses their ability to die in the flesh at the lake of Fire – they have already suffered the death of fleshThere is no 3D flesh in heavenEcc 12:7 (TLV) Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecc 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7 (LXX) καὶ ἐπιστρέψῃ ὁ χοῦς ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν, ὡς ἦν, καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα ἐπιστρέψῃ πρὸς τὸν θεόν, ὃς ἔδωκεν αὐτό. H7307 – ruach G4151 – pneuma Only SPIRIT in heaven – no 3D bodiesSo does your 3D body stand at the Lake of Fire – NO It is your ethereal body / heavenly body – NOT 3D FLESH – NOT MORTAL It is spirit that is judged at the throne It is spirit that is thrown into the Lake of Fire This is the second death – death of spirit The Beast – The devil – and the false prophets and your satan are all spirits This is the death of spirit – you are no more – cease to exist You deny the spiritYou argueRom 8:16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God; Man cannot have his own spirit – ruach only means HS therefore this verse only says Rom 8:16 The (HS) doth testify with (the HS within us), that we are children of God; Because we have no soul – no spirit – were are animals ADMINISTERED by the HS You spent months on this argument – I do not misquote you ------------------- D You say the goal is to be dead in the grave and wait for the first resurrection I say the goal is to be born again of spirit and become the first fruits NOWI do not misquote you – the best a man can hope for is that when the body dies Only are memories are taken into heaven by the HS and recorded We are just in the grave waiting the resurrection Then after the FIRST RESURRECTION – our memories are returned to our mortal bodies to stand judgment If we are found worthy – we continue on in the New Heaven and Earth as Mortals again R What are the first fruits Dave?Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God; Rom 8:23 And not only so , but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting—the redemption of our body; Jas 1:18 having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures. The first of the harvestSpiritual Christians – that have been born again – who die in Christ Example = Moses and Elijah standing next to Christ in the transfiguration They are not in the grave waiting anything – they are in the court of God – serving God Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; Rev 20:5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again. First Fruits - They are not in the grave waiting anything – they are in the court of God – serving God This is my goal - this should be everyone's goal You are in the grave until the First Resurrection - as in you missed the boat What did Jesus mean by being born of spirit? Joh 3:6 How is one born of spirit?Man = (spirit/soul + (Mind/Body)) (Mind/Body) = flesh – intellect – education – cognition – thinking – dreaming – believing You cannot learn to be a Christian from a book – you cannot teach yourself to be a Christian You can learn and study and gain knowledge – become a Priest – become and Elder in the Church- you can worship hard every day – but this does not make you a Christian So many people go down this road for 20 years – just to give it up Or they become so knowledgeable and educated that they can no longer believe in magicPs 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. David describes the mission for sinners here: (1) Do something about the SIN problem in you. It has nothing to do with what man does – it has everything to do with what Jesus Christ did(2) Ask the HS to create a new "heart" in you, and daily this renewed right spirit comes into me... Renewed spirit – Correct – spirit to spirit communion is a renewal a gift of energy(3) David labels this process coming from the "holy spirit", one of few places the Hebrew is named completely. YES – the indwelling of the HS – Christ in us(4) Give me the joy of salvation. YES! – this personal relationship = salvation – agreed (5) Than shall I go and help others discover your salvation. YES! – then I can better complete my mission To remember and witness to all the nations of the worldRo 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Here is one passage, is explained the "sons of GOD", refers to those saved by GOD, not as you claim to be archons, or angels, having sex with humans, etc. So the evil Nephilum were fathered by Christians? Strange theology you haveAnd now you say the "spirit" is some immortal gift man received from eternity, that makes us truly us. If that is so, how come the wicked ones lost this immortality at the lake of fire? Why does Scripture say only God is immortal and in the final journey to heaven, the raised ones "put on" immortality, in other words once connected to Jesus, remaining with Jesus, we have ongoing living in us via restored relationship. We also eat of the tree of life every month, another sign that ongoing living requires us to keep on keeping...doing what? Having that relationship.1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or is able to see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. Immortality – you sure do not grasp the meaning of this wordG110 - ἀθανασία - a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; = deathlessness: G1 – α - negate G2288 – θάνατος – death In Greek – if you put an α in front of a word it negates the word Example – theos = God – atheos = no God – atheist Des means to see / be seen – ades (Hades) = unseen Immortality = a+death = no death Correct God will never suffer a mortal death = immortal Angels are not flesh – they will never suffer a mortal death = immortal Your satan is not flesh – he will never have a mortal death = immortal Demons will never have a mortal death = immortal If you think for one moment once your saved in heaven, you can jump for joy, "I am saved, I am free to be on my own, do as I like",Oh Robert – you really do not look at the bulk of scripture After all this time – why would you say such a thing – I am so surprised you don’t know betterThe Gospel of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." Rom 7:14 for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; Rom 7:15 for that which I work, I do not acknowledge; for not what I will, this I practise, but what I hate, this I do. Rom 7:16 And if what I do not will, this I do, I consent to the law that it is good, Rom 7:17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me, Rom 7:18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, Rom 7:19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise. Rom 7:20 And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me. ------------------------- R: "Death is the consequence of sin, and brings in dissolution. This means when Adam and Eve sinned, entropy, chaos, mutations, decay and such things of RA, all came flooding in immediately upon sin,(came upon man - because man sinned) D You are Correct and I absolutely agree Rom 6:23 For sin’s payment is death, But as a Christian – I like to read the entire verse but God’s gracious gift is eternal life in Messiah Yeshua our Lord. And the serpent is correct – even tho we enter into mortal death – through Christ – we will survive the Lake of Fire Personally – I cannot imagine a true Christian claiming this promise is a lie R You will have to detail all these words here...I am confused.... You cannot agree with me that death is a consequence of sin, causing RA, which brings in dissolution.OK – I will employ the Robert MethodSearch – dissolution – all of KJV = 0 verses found King James use = 0 Therefore there can be no theological precept that included the word dissolution Just like TrinityNow that’s overYou cannot agree with me that death is a consequence of sinScripture says – the wages of sin = mortal death – I accept scripture You have GOD creating a RA world before SIN came from Adam. I have a RA world came with dissolution AFTER Adam sinned.DOCTRINE - So many people go down this road for 20 years – just to give it up Or they become so knowledgeable and educated that they can no longer believe in magic Once before you failed to address my question of the 7th day of restOne last point – about precept upon preceptHeb 4:4 For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works,” Heb 4:5 and again in this passage: “They shall never enter My rest.” Heb 4:6 So then it remains for some to enter into it; If a day to God is only 24 today hours – as 6 - 24 hour days of creation Shouldn’t this day of rest be over 5779 years ago? How can it - remains for some to enter into it? The Gnostic answer – Time is not linear and any argument about time from man’s perspective is just error Let’s talk Incremental Creation – which is just the 6 days of Genesis spread out over a much longer time than just 6 – 24hr days I love the Lord – and I allow Him the right to appreciate his own creation I allow God to play – experiment – and enjoy the process Day three comes around – God makes something in the morning – and enjoys it – watches it grow like a gardener with a prize rose Later that same day – he makes something else – again God has time to enjoy his creation – watches it grow – being a proud father – enjoying His creation Let’s talk day 5 and the beast – the age of the dino – starting small – growing larger and more dominate over the planet – yester ra instinct expressed fully as a predator – the sum of all chaos God had time to watch all of this unfold – appreciating His creation – watching it grow and expressing it’s yester ra to its extremes Let’s talk day 6 – it ended Gen 1:31 So God saw everything that He made, and behold it was very good. So there was evening and there was morning—the sixth day. Day 7- Oops! Not a 24hr day – so far it has been 5779 years long according to the Jewish Calendar Robert Method – a day = 24hrs – or it doesn’tFor the scripture of Paul in the agl to be correct – a day cannot be only 24hrs If there is time for us to enter into God’s day of rest - then - There was plenty of time for God to enjoy and appreciate watching His creation grow and mature – as every father does The rush to make the 6 days of creation only 24hr man days – is man centric Creation is God centric - it is all about God’s creation – not just man Man is just one small part of it – it is our part and in our arrogant limited view we just think it is all about us We are a part of God’s creation Only the Jehovah Witness preach God made all of this for man only What is man supposed to do – while in this physical ContestJer 1:5 – remember and witness God’s Glory How are we to do this as Christians Eph 6:12 (TLV) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers (archie), against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist when the times are evil, and after you have done everything, to stand firm. Eph 6:14 Stand firm then! Buckle the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. Eph 6:15 Strap up your feet in readiness with the Good News of shalom. Eph 6:16 Above all, take up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, keep alert with perseverance and supplication for all the kedoshim. The very first amour of God = TRUTH – not doctrine – especially not a satanic doctrineFrom TRUTH = righteous and faith – salvation – and the SPIRIT = the Word (John 1:1-4) God / HS/ Christ So we can PRAY IN THE SPIRIT = Communion – spirit to spirit It has nothing to do with biology or intellect And everything to do with heart and soul SO – 6 days of creation – if they are not 24hr days then how long are theyPsa 90:4 For a thousand years in Thine eyes are as yesterday, For it passeth on, yea, a watch by night. 2Pe 3:8 And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; If nothing ever died until Adam – then everything would have been 1000s or millions of years old This does not sit well with the bulk of scripture Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them, Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead—to their being inexcusable; Sorry Robert planet earth did not go fromTo – in one step – like magicThis is obvious in the telescope and microscope And it has nothing to do with evolution GOD told Adam and Eve about an angel who sins and is a father of lies.Where did God say this to Adam and Eve before the “fall” SCRIPTUR PLEASEAny creature who sins is by definition opposing God, but you deny this.So you oppose God huh – and Paul was opposing God in Rom 7You say the creature never sinned getting Eve to sin with her. OMG Robert – you are so in love with your satanHere is your game you play – every time you see the word satan – you insert cherub chata the opposer of God 1 King 22:19-23 – God asked for a volunteer spirit to be a spirit of deception – to facilitate God Will Was this spirit of deception sinning as it obeyed God? Job – satan obeyed God and tested Job harshly – is it a sin to obey God? Egypt – God sent an angel of death into the land – was than angel sinning by obeying God? Please tell me why it is a sin to obey God How can you claim to be a Christian – promoting the idea that it is a sin to obey God?1 King 22:19-23 – volunteer spirit to be the deceiving spirit – obeying God – not sinning Gen 3:1-15 – was the serpent another volunteer – like satan was to Job – like the angel of death in Egypt – or like the volunteer spirit deceiving the prophets of Ahab Ge 3:13 And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. The woman says the serpent sinned, and deceived me to also sin. YES – Eve lied – involved Adam - then lied again to blame it on the serpent POINT – man is a lierGe 2:17 thou shalt surely <muwth> die <muwth>. (KJV) So this must read : Ge 2:17 thou shalt dying <muwth> die <muwth>. (Jeff Benner) This is why you don’t learn anything – I showed you the truth here – you just refuse to see it It does not say מות מות It says מות תְּמֻתוּן: The first מות is an infinitive absolute (death) תְּמֻתוּן: Verb Qal Imperfect 2nd Mas. Pl. Root: עַד + מות Infinitive Definition: perpetuity, forever, continuing future If you death(absolute) you will die in perpetuity, forever, continuing future
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 7:00:55 GMT -5
You write well Dave.
I will not keep arguing with you.
But one question I will raise:
Dave: "Ge 2:17 thou shalt dying <muwth> die <muwth>. (Jeff Benner)
This is why you don’t learn anything – I showed you the truth here – you just refuse to see it
It does not say מות מות
It says מות תְּמֻתוּן:
The first מות is an infinitive absolute (death) תְּמֻתוּן: Verb Qal Imperfect 2nd Mas. Pl. Root: עַד + מות
Infinitive Definition: perpetuity, forever, continuing future
If you death(absolute) you will die in perpetuity, forever, continuing future
Rob's reply: "OK forgive my child like understanding
Gen 2:17 Verb - Verb - Suffix (tav)
Does the suffix change the verb that much?
Verb (muwth) means to "die", incomplete action of "maveth" the noun, "to be dead".
How does a suffix (tav) change the verb that much the dying is a future dying? rather than an immediate dying, that later becomes future?
So you don't see chaos coming from Adam's sin, because it was already designed by God before Adam sinned?
How do Jews see this verse Gen 2:17?
Quote: "Jewish tradition does not understand human imperfections as being the result of an “original sin” by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.1 Sin is the result of our negative human tendencies or inclinations,2 known in Hebrew as the yetzer hara (the inclination toward evil)3, which must be channeled in ways that affirm life by the influence of the yetzer hatov (the inclination to goodness). The word in Hebrew for sin (ḥet) literally means something that goes astray, like an arrow that misses the mark.
Why do Jews not see sin as breaking relationship with GOD? Rather they see sin as a negative human tendency?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 28, 2020 10:44:26 GMT -5
Gen 2:17 Verb - Verb - Suffix (tav) Does the suffix change the verb that much? Verb (muwth) means to "die", incomplete action of "maveth" the noun, "to be dead".
How does a suffix (tav) change the verb that much the dying is a future dying? rather than an immediate dying, that later becomes future?
I do not translate Hebrew – but you can trust my Greek Also – your precious KJV – is from the Greek not the Hebrew
Θανατω αποθανεισθε
It is obvious these are two completely different words – spelled differently Both are built upon the rood word G2348 – θνήσκω -; to die (literally or figuratively): - be dead,
Θανατω – is a noun – singular – masculine – and in the dative case How do we know it is in the dative because of its spelling – it ends with ω
Dative case gives it meaning – the meaning of being an object of a preposition (whether the preposition is written or not) Dative case give things “movement into” (in / through/ into the center)
The noun does not mean – to die (this is an action – a verb) This noun means an absolute condition – death
If you/ if she/ when you/ when she enters death – moves into death
αποθανεισθε – is a verb – future tense – indicative – middle voice - plural
Future tense = in the future Indicative = makes it an a sure thing – definitely MIDDLE VOICE: The subject is part or all of the action. In other words, the subject is both the cause and the focus, the agent and experiencer, of a verbal action. I moved (myself).
So αποθανεισθε is translated as – in the future you will absolutely be responsible for your own death
Translation – if/when – you enter death (an absolute – not slowly dyeing – but dead) in the future you will absolutely be responsible for your own death
If /when you enter death – in the future you shall surely die (because of your own actions)
I do not translate Hebrew but there are two different words here – two different spellings
מותH4191 תמות׃H4191
This cannot mean simply if you die you die
It means if you die (infinitive absolute) + תְּמֻתוּן: Verb Qal Imperfect 2nd Mas. Pl. - Infinitive Definition: perpetuity, forever, continuing future It means - perpetuity, forever, continuing future
If/when you die (absolute death- no return) – you will die forever, you will always die in the future – you will die for all perpetuity
This is translation because we are considering the word forms and their true meanings It includes GRAMMAR
I have taught Greek for many years – I will stand by my Greek statements 100% This is not doctrine – I am not trying to make the words fit into anything prteconcieved This is translation – let the text speak
How do Jews see this verse Gen 2:17? Quote: "Jewish tradition does not understand human imperfections as being the result of an “original sin” by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.1 Sin is the result of our negative human tendencies or inclinations,2 known in Hebrew as the yetzer hara (the inclination toward evil)3, which must be channeled in ways that affirm life by the influence of the yetzer hatov (the inclination to goodness). The word in Hebrew for sin (ḥet) literally means something that goes astray, like an arrow that misses the mark.
Why do Jews not see sin as breaking relationship with GOD? Rather they see sin as a negative human tendency?
1- Sin is the result of our negative human tendencies or inclinations,2 known in Hebrew as the yetzer hara (the inclination toward evil)
This is our INSTINCTIVE need for “SELF” preservation – to promote self – to protect self All animals – are born with this instinct Two starving dogs will kill one another over food / territory / and females – survival of self
You and I are captured by head hunters – one has to die and one gets to live My yester ra – says take Robert and spare me – let me go – don’t harm me My yester tov – says – take me and save Robert – I will give my life for you – Jesus would/ Jesus did
All animals are driven by their yester ra – self preservation
Only man has a soul (Gen 2:7) Jewish Man is the only animal that can choose
The word in Hebrew for sin (ḥet) literally means something that goes astray, like an arrow that misses the mark.
God created nature in a glorious balance – God’s design – evidence of intelligent design Is it a sin for a big fish to swallow a little fish to maintain his existence – NO Is it a sin for a fruit to drop to the ground and rot and decay – in order to give new life – NO Is it a sin for a lion to kill a buffalo to feed the pride – NO
None of these actions has any bearing upon – choosing God
The choice is between – seeking / obeying GOD – or not The choice is between – seeking God – or serving self
Fish, fruit, and lions have nothing to repent of
1 Kings 22 a volunteer stepped up to be the deceiving spirit in service / in obedience to the Lord How can obedience to the Lord be a sin?
God told Joshua – to kill every last man woman and child of Jericho Did God tell Joshua to sin? Did Israel sin – by obeying God?
God told satan – do your worst to Job Why do you insist it is a sin to obey God?
God was satan to Balaam – Is God a sinner?
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Post by Dave on Nov 28, 2020 11:16:05 GMT -5
You are all wrapped up in sin and satan doctrine You deny any scripture that does not fit your cherub chata scenario
You read cherub chata into scripture Not one of those 49 +23 verses indicate that satan opposes God – but obeys God every time This frustrated you enough for you to say – at least you have cherun chata and a war in heaven
Sorry Robert two verse do not override the bulk of scripture The war/conflict in heaven was over and done with in Gen 1:2
No Jew sees cherub chata as anything other than a metaphor about King Cyrus Or any man that gets too big for his britches
You want to get really Jewish
Job never existed – Job is a metaphor of everyman – every man is Job Adam and Eve never existed – they are a metaphor of man in general Every man is born without sin – everyman is given the choice to obey God or not – and every man always chooses self – because we are animals
You were born sinless and in full knowledge of God – Just like Adam You were given a choice – self or God – and because man is animal we all chose self (it is who we are) Just like Eve
The wages of YOUR sin is YOUR mortal death (Adam and Eve were just an example of how it works)
But as the serpent told Eve – just because you die a mortal death – does not mean you are mandated to also die a spiritual death because of your sin choice
I believe the serpent – I believe in John 3:16 – and I believe that my soul/spirit (not my mortal body) will survive the Lake of Fire
The serpent told the truth – so why was Eve deceived – because she did not know better – because she did not understand the consequences – because she was stupid
The fault is hers – and hers alone Just as your fault is your fault alone – your sin does not harm my soul – your sin does not harm the fish or the birds or the weeds your fault = your fault alone – and only between you and your Creator
How did Eve respond when busted – she lied again and blamed it upon the serpent
Between you and your God – a personal relationship Satan – the archon – demons – or God - are not to blame – it is not someone else’s fault your fault alone – and only between you and your Creator
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 15:45:39 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I wish to borrow your translating skills:
Θανατω αποθανεισθε
It is obvious these are two completely different words – spelled differently Both are built upon the rood word G2348 – θνήσκω -; to die (literally or figuratively): - be dead,
Notice the Hebrew has the same verb, verb verb + suffix (tav). They are not two different words.
Your LXX Greek has different words, a noun and a verb, with suffix.
I see a problem here.
You say the KJV followed the Greek LXX? Hmm?
OK show me some NT verses that use both of these Greek words, so I can check the context, please.
Seing you read LXX so easily than me, look up these verses in the LXX and get back to me
Le 16:1 ¶ And the LORD <Y@hovah> spake <dabar> unto Moses <Mosheh> after <'achar> the death <maveth> of the two <sh@nayim> sons <ben> of Aaron <'Aharown>, when they offered <qarab> before <paniym> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and died <muwth>;
COmpare the LXX results for maveth and muwth, these are the same Hebrew word, one is verb, the other a noun.
What does the LXX do for these? How do they compare with Gen 2:17, the use of muwth?
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D: "This is translation because we are considering the word forms and their true meanings It includes GRAMMAR
R Yes, but grammar shouldn't distort word meanings that much should they? I was in PNG and heard Pidgin English for 10 years, not understanding it much, I listened for words I heard, not the complete grammar, and understood a little.
If I heard "dewai" I knew it meant, log, stick, wood, but not sure which.
If I heard "haus lotu" I knew it meant "house church" or similar.
If I heard "lookout him" it meant watch out.
If I heard "pikinni" it meant child, baby, small person.
If I heard "Em i gat bigpela hevi" it means "em" He "gat" got" bigpela "big something" "hevi" heavy.
It can mean "He has a big something" a "big worry" a "difficult task to do"
My point is in learning translation, you get a fair idea from the basic words themselves without having to worry about grammar, otherwise nobody could learn as a baby until they were fully born in that mother tongue.
I got a friend to write out a sermon once and I preached the entire thing in Tok Pisin.
SO yes I know understanding words in sentences includes grammar, but a baby begins first with the words.
And the fact is Gen 2:17 is "verb verb suffix (tav). "
Why is the verb repeated twice? What does the suffix tav do?
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OK you are Greek expert for the LXX.
Look up these verses
Le 16:1 Gen 2:17,
How do they translate maveth and muwth, compare them to NT verses where same Greek words are used and show me your results. apothnesko is linked to maveth or muwth ?
This is an interesting study:-
Ex 21:17 shall surely <muwth> be put to death <muwth>.
Mt 15:4 let him die <teleutao> the death <thanatos>.
Ac 2:29 he is <teleutao> both <kai> dead <teleutao> and <kai> buried <thapto>,
Mt 2:19 ¶ But <de> when Herod <Herodes> was dead <teleutao>,
Why does KJV do these ? Why not
Ac 2:29 And David died and is buried... Mt 2:19 and when Herod died...
It seems to me, teleutao means "die" from Hebrew "muwth" "meaning to die".
And
Lu 1:79 <skia> of death <thanatos>
Isaiah 9:2 the shadow of death <tsalmaveth>
Notice tsel and maveth are combined into one word, So thanatos = maveth meaning "death".
Notice the Hebrew is "verb verb- suffix" same verb is repeated twice. Now help me out
Gen 2:17 Θανατω αποθανεισθε
Should be "teleutao" "teleutao", but the translators do NOT do this: they do
Mt 15:4 let him die <teleutao> the death <thanatos>.
They change the Hebrew words to make a new Greek meaning:
Gen 2:17 muwth maveth.
But the Hebrew does NOT say this.
Clearly the translators are changing the Hebrew for some reason?
To me the words are saying: "thou shall dying die"
It does not have the word as a noun, hence the meaning of "death" is not there.
What do you think of this so far?
I think the Greek translators are leading you astray here?? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 28, 2020 17:31:32 GMT -5
I wish to borrow your translating skills:
Θανατω αποθανεισθε
It is obvious these are two completely different words – spelled differently Both are built upon the rood word G2348 – θνήσκω -; to die (literally or figuratively): - be dead, They are not two different words.
Drank – drunk – drink – and drinking – are all of the same root But these are four different words that mean specific things Drink is present tense – I drink now If I drink now that verb drink can become a participle noun I am drinking drunk refers to it and drank refers to who did it - and – it all happened before now
θάνω is the ultimate root to die (literally or figuratively θνήσκω – is a different word – different spelling = A strengthened form of a simpler primary word θάνω - be dead, . αποθανεισθε – is compound word – different from the other two – with a different meaning
ἀπό - G575 - A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
θανεισθε – is a verb it is a Verb, Future Tense, Middle Voice, 2nd person. Plural We know this because of the way it is spelled
(Future tense) In the future –(2nd person plural) you all – (Middle Voice)will die – because of you own actions
ἀπό - In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion + in the future you will surely die because of your own actions
I see a problem here. You say the KJV followed the Greek LXX? Hmm? Textus Receptus – the received text – google it yourself – we have been all through this
OK show me some verses that use both of these Greek words, so I can check the context, please. Seing you read LXX so easily than me, look up these verses in the LXX and get back to me
Jer 22:26 (TLV)So I will cast you out, with your mother who bore you, into another country where you were not born—and there will you die. Gen 42:20 And your youngest brother, bring to me so that your words can be verified—and you won’t die.” So they did.
This says not and correctly so – the sentence in Greek – but – if – but (Grammar)
Le 16:1 ¶ And the LORD <Y@hovah> spake <dabar> unto Moses <Mosheh> after <'achar> the death <maveth> of the two <sh@nayim> sons <ben> of Aaron <'Aharown>, when they offered <qarab> before <paniym> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and died <muwth>;
After the τελευτησαι G5053 – verb, aorist, active, infinitive When they offered before the Lord they ετελευτησαν G5053 – verb, aorist, active, indicative, 2n person plural to finish life, that is, expire (demise), die.
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D: "This is translation because we are considering the word forms and their true meanings It includes GRAMMAR R Yes, but grammar shouldn't distort word meanings that much should they? I kill you - present I will kill you -future I might kill you sometime in the future - future perfect I am killing you right now – verb used as a noun I killed you – past tense I should have killed you - past perfect I might have killed you - past pluperfect
Notice the Hebrew has the same verb, verb verb + suffix (tav). And the fact is Gen 2:17 is "verb verb suffix (tav). " According the Hebrew I have available – the first muwth –is an infinitive absolute To die absolutely – not partially – but completely dead into infinity – The second muwth (תְּמֻתוּן Verb Qal Imperfect 2nd Mas. Pl. - Infinitive Definition: perpetuity, forever, continuing future It means - perpetuity, forever, continuing future
Why is the verb repeated twice? What does the suffix tav do? It changes the tense of the verb and the subject
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OK you are Greek expert for the LXX. Not an expert – but I have been doing it a long time and I have taught it more than once
Ex 21:17 shall surely <muwth> be put to death <muwth>. Θανατω G2288 (Noun, Dative, singular, masc) τελευτατω G5053 (Verb, present, active, declaritive-3rd person Singular) Translation = enter death right now, right this minute
Mt 15:4 let him die <teleutao> the death <thanatos>. Θανατω G2288 Noun, Dative, masc) τελευτατωG5053 (Verb, present, active middle voice 3rd person singular) Translation – enter death right now and it is because of their own actions
Ac 2:29 he is <teleutao> both <kai> dead <teleutao> and <kai> buried <thapto>, Ετελευτησεν G5053 (Verb, aorist, active, indicative, 3rd person singular) και εταφηG2290 (Verb-2nd aorist, indicative, 3person singular) He is absolutely dead right now – and I have already shared his funeral rights
Mt 2:19 ¶ But <de> when Herod <Herodes> was dead <teleutao>, Τελευτησαντος G5053 (Verb, aorist, active, participle) But Herod expired (finished life)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2020 16:03:43 GMT -5
Dave replies
Ex 21:17 shall surely <muwth> be put to death <muwth>. Θανατω G2288 (Noun, Dative, singular, masc) τελευτατω G5053 (Verb, present, active, declaritive-3rd person Singular) Translation = enter death right now, right this minute
Mt 15:4 let him die <teleutao> the death <thanatos>. Θανατω G2288 Noun, Dative, masc) τελευτατωG5053 (Verb, present, active middle voice 3rd person singular) Translation – enter death right now and it is because of their own actions
Notice Dave in the Greek they add different words to suit the Hebrew meaning of the verbs repeated twice.
Ex 21:17 shall surely 'muwth "Θανατω G2288"' be put to death 'muwth"τελευτατω G5053 "'.
And you translate this as
"Translation = enter death right now, right this minute"
Well isn't this the same idea as Genesis 2:17?
Ge 26:11 shall surely be put to death. Ex 19:12 shall be surely put to death: Ex 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. Ex 21:15 shall be surely put to death.
Isn't these the same idea as Gen 2:17
Ge 2:17 thou shalt surely die.
Notice the image below:
In Exodus 19:12 and others like Gen 26:11, the word stem "tent-peg" changes, and the "active-hand" is used for suffix.
The phrase reads "Flowing secure toward an important mark, flowing toward this important mark, securely by an active hand"
The important mark is the end of you as you, your decision to make, be with Jesus or not, decided by the cross, the important mark. Notice the suffix "securely by an active hand" implies you are killed than and there.
But in Gen 2:17 the suffix is different:
The phrase reads "Flowing secure toward an important mark,Flowing secure toward an important mark, towards the important mark". This seems to suggest, not an active hand is killing you immediately, but you progress towards the important mark, the decision that ends your life or not.
The question asked by me, and questioned by Dave is, is the "Flowing secure toward an important mark" meant to mean "you are dying daily as you progress towards the important mark"? I say yes, Dave says no.
The flowing secure is interesting. The tent-peg letter is a symbol of the heavenly Father, so in essence your flow of power from the Father is secure as you progress towards your mark.
I am not experienced enough in reading Ancient Hebrew letters to answer this question, I would have to view other verses, and my software does not allow me to read Ancient Hebrew letters, as Jeff Benner taught me. Notice I do not read as scholars do in my understanding of the letters, Jeff Benner explains that letters have meanings on their own.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 29, 2020 16:41:35 GMT -5
Here is your misunderstanding – you make it sound as if Greeks translated the Hebrew Sorry Robert – (Wiki) The full title (Ancient Greek: Ἡ μετάφρασις τῶν Ἑβδομήκοντα, lit. 'The Translation of the Seventy') derives from the story recorded in the Letter of Aristeas that the Hebrew Torah was translated into Greek at the request of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–247 BCE) by 70 Jewish scholars or, according to later tradition, 72: six scholars from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who independently produced identical translations. The (LXX) is a Jewish translation of their own language into Greeks by Jewish Rabbis – long before Christ or the agl Your King James – (Wiki) The translation was done by 6 panels of translators (47 men in all, most of whom were leading biblical scholars in England) who had the work divided up between them: the Old Testament was entrusted to three panels, the New Testament to two, and the Apocrypha to one.[9] In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament from Hebrew and Aramaic, and the Apocrypha from Greek and Latin. 1- Textus receptus – the “received text” – contains many bastard verses that do not exist in any older copy 2- Translation of Hebrew – not by Rabbis and Hebrew speaking experts – but ROMAN CATHOLICS youtu.be/up-R0rFz0bAThe King James Version: Translating the World's Most Popular Book. You say you want to return to the Hebrew – but doubt the Jews knew and understood their own language or theology Here is why you dislike Greek – it is very specific It is the language of law and treaties because it is so specific Hebrew is a pictograph language and the father is just a tent post I want to see the Torah through the eyes of the Jew – not after it has been filtered by ROME I want to see the Torah through the eyes of a Jew – before the Roman Edit
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2020 8:45:18 GMT -5
Notice Dave in the Greek they add different words to suit the Hebrew meaning of the verbs repeated twice. Ex 21:17 shall surely 'muwth "Θανατω G2288"' be put to death 'muwth"τελευτατω G5053 "'. And you translate this as "Translation = enter death right now, right this minute"Well isn't this the same idea as Genesis 2:17? You don not understand what it is to translate To translate = to fully express the meaning of the textAll you do is transliterate – You play word substation games – and you want to force each word into a one word definitionI have no Idea what one word definition arePlease describe the taste of milk with one word Please explain hurt with only one word Please explain Love – using only one word If translation was a word game – all translations would all have the same words – they don’t Please translate this short phraseκαὶ εὑρεθῇ ἐν αὐτῷ, θανάτῳ τελευτάτω και - conjunction and, but, sometimes if / when, sometime just a sentence break ευρεθη Verb, aorist, passive voice, subjective, 3rd person singular of εὑρίσκω It can be no other – because of its spelling Aorist Tense. The aorist tense is the Greek grammarian's term for a simple past tense. Unlike the other past tenses (imperfect and perfect), the aorist simply states the fact that an action has happened. In Greek the passive is used to express reflexive verbs, i.e. the idea of doing something to oneself, or to describe someone's own physical or mental state, or cases where the verb can't take an object (for example I sleep). Κρύβω τα λεφτά. The SUBJUNCTIVE mood expresses unreal or hypothetical actions, such as wishes, conditions, and possibilities: she might run, if he could stop… G2147 A prolonged form of a primary word εὕρω heurō; which (together with another cognate form, εὑρέω heureō) is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect; to find (literally or figuratively): - find, get, obtain, perceive, see. εν (simple – in / into + a dative noun) A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep. αυτω Dative (object of a prep) singular, masc G846 – MY FAVORITE WORD - αὐτός From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Θανατω Dative (object of a prep) singular, masc of θάνατος G2288 - death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death. Τελευτατω Verb, present tense, active voice, declarative, 3rd person singular of τελευτάω G5053 From a presumed derivative of G5055; to finish life (by implication of G979), that is, expire (demise): - be dead, The ACTIVE voice indicates that the subject of the verb is carrying out the action Translation – 1And – but - so You already (found, got, obtained) passive (for yourself) subjective makes it a hypothetical So when you found – for your self But if you found – for yourself Εν αυτω Θανατω = a prepositional phrase – Prep + dative + dative In your death Τελευτατω – to finish life / expire – present tense (now) active voice (you are responsible) declarative (!) This declarative at the end of the sentence can be reflected back upon the condition of the sentence Translation – 2You MUST obtain (for yourself) your own death – and expire NOW You MUST obtain death NOW – and it is your own doing And you translate this as "Translation = enter death right now, right this minute"Well isn't this the same idea as Genesis 2:17? You MUST obtain death NOW – and it is your own doing – using more words of the sentence enter death right now, right this minute" – using only two words as you requested Why would Gen 2:17 θανάτῳ ἀποθανεῖσθε· Translate the same as Ex 21:17 θανάτῳ τελευτάτω.
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