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Post by Dave on Dec 26, 2020 5:08:12 GMT -5
D Correct – Jesus calls the First Archon Beelzebub- who has forces working for him Beelzebub is a satan agreed – because he opposes man And his forces working for him are also called satan because they also oppose man
1- you miss the precept - what name did Jesus call the First Archon – Beelzebub I do not think it wise or Christian to contradict the words of Jesus
R wow we agree, First Archon – Beelzebub is Jewish thinking, used by Jesus in His day...the Hebrews call this First Archon – Beelzebub, by a Hebrew word "hey-satan" ... Agree?
And this First Archon – named Beelzebul by King Solomon – and Beelzebub by Jesus Was created for it function Never changed species Was never perfect and had nothing to do with Ezk 28
R God opposed Balaam because Balaam is wicked and would have cursed Israel. D Correct – God is the satan in this situation - anyone can be the satan R great, but you keep using the word "satan" not its English meaning, "oppose" SO GOD opposed Baalim because he is wicked. R: "The term hey-satan is fully completely opposing GOD. D Only in your mind does God oppose God R I don't get you... There are two beings in JOB talking to each other
Way to try to confuse the argument I am speaking of Balaam – so you change it to a conversation about Job and say you don't understand
God was satan to Balaam – and you say satan only opposes God – so your God opposes your God Your logic
AN opposer cannot oppose himself? What are you saying? I have no idea what you are saying – it is your argument I claim – is it NOT a sin to do God’s will – even if God does it Himself
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 13:43:11 GMT -5
Greetings Dave My Bungle keeping playing up, think I need a new one? Losing signals all the time, especially when it gets hot. One question: I have now another Messanic Hebrew friend who emailed me, and says the Angels as created Beings do not exist. This seems to come from the Lion of Judah teachings on videos. Part 1 Angels Did Not Have Sex (who are the sons of God) Pt 1 of 3 - YouTube www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0_OFMpiE3wTry this out, puts an end to your archons having sex with humans idea? How do you prove Angels, cherub, exist as a real Being, not something imaginary? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 31, 2020 8:18:26 GMT -5
Part 1 Angels Did Not Have Sex (who are the sons of God) Pt 1 of 3 - YouTube www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0_OFMpiE3wTry this out, puts an end to your archons having sex with humans idea? How do you prove Angels, cherub, exist as a real Being, not something imaginary? What an excellent video – RELIGION and DOCTRINEThis is exactly why BELIEF is not the end stage of a Personal Relationship with the Father You can believe anything you want What is the point of religion and belief – my opinion – anything that keeps you from the truth The end point / the goal of Christianity is to be Born Again and walk in Spiritual Communion with the Lord Any belief that keeps you from this goal = archon inspired religion Looks like Christianity – smell like it – acts like it – as long as it keeps you from “remembering who you are and your true mission on the this earth” First – Gen 6:2 bane elohiymYour video – 5:05 the false assumptionBecause the Father never told an angel you are my Son – so the bane elohiym can only be ChristIf this is true – then Christ Fathered the Nephilim And there must be multiple Christs because it all happen in the plural This is a perfect example of your cherub chata – allowing words to dominate preceptsAnd I say shame on all these false teachers – who want to downplay the archon just as we enter a time when Jesus said. Mat 24:37 “For just as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Rev 9 Your doctrine must comply with the bulk of scripture Jud 1:6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority but deserted their proper place—He has kept in everlasting shackles under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great Day. 2Pe 2:4 For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into Sheol. He put them in chains of gloomy darkness, to be held until the judgment. Who are Jude and Peter talking about? This cannot be your rev 12:7 dragon and his angels – who are cast into creation / earth of Gen 1:2 If this was about your dragon and his angels – then they would not be available to test Job – or Israel – or Christ – or man Sorry Robert – these ANGELS (angelic being / spirit beings / not 3D mortal beings of flesh and bone) are locked away – held in chains – awaiting Rev 9 The Book of the Secrets of EnochVII. Of how Enoch was taken on to the second heaven. AND those men took me and led me up on to the second heaven, and showed me darkness, greater than earthly darkness, and there I saw prisoners hanging, watched, awaiting the great and boundless judgement, and these angels were dark-looking, more than earthly darkness, and incessantly making weeping through all hours. 2 And I said to the men who were with me: 'Wherefore are these incessantly tortured?' they answered me: 'These are God's apostates, who obeyed not God's commands, but took counsel with their own will, and turned away with their prince, who also is fastened on the fifth heaven.' 3 And I felt great pity for them, and they saluted me, and said to me: 'Man of God, pray for us to the Lord'; and I answered to them: 'Who am I, a mortal man, that I should pray for angels? who knoweth whither I go, or what will befall me? or who will pray for me?' XVIII. Of the taking of Enoch on to the fifth heaven. THE men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori, of human appearance, and their size was greater than that of great giants and their faces withered, and the silence of their mouths perpetual, and there was no service on the fifth heaven, and I said to the men who were with me: 2 Wherefore are these very withered and their faces melancholy, and their mouths silent, and wherefore is there no service on this heaven? 3 And they said to me: These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon 1 and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity. 4 And therefore God judged them with great judgement, and they weep for their brethren and they will be punished on the Lord's great day. Sorry Robert – the bane elohiym were not men – they were bad-angels / bad-angelic beings / archonYES - scripture says they were sinningBut before you get all excited that this validates your cherub chata theologyQuestion - what was their sin and when did it occure Answer - after they took on mortal form - just like Adam and Eve - just like you and me The Grigori were the Nephilim of Gen 6 - and - Enoch wrote 60 chapters about them What was their sin? Enoch says there were two sins against the Lord 1- Each species after its own kind - The Nephilim are dimigods and chimerias 2- They desired worship - set themselves up in positions of authority Lord of the Rings - Battel of the Five Armies - all against the evil wizard Sarin and his trogladite army or Orks Post Flood 'other gods' How do you prove Angels, cherub, exist as a real Being, not something imaginary?What a question for a Christian to ask – how to prove Christ is real or God? This question reeks of doubt – religion has done its job well with you1- I believe scripture 2- I have felt the spirit touch my soul 3- I have encountered something non-physical and very real – a paranormal experience 4- I have listen to or read of thousands of experiences just like my own 5- In 2002 a member of my community church reported the same encounter as mine 6- History – scripture or not – is filled with paranormal reports There is zero doubt in my mind that just outside our field of vision – there are entities that are anything but human – that manipulate this realm from the outside(David Ike)Current scientific revelationThunder Energies Discovers Invisible Terrestrial Entities (ITEs)March 8, 2016 - Original video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRC2q_VLEMThunder Energies Corp (TNRG:OTC) has recently detected invisible entities in our terrestrial environment with the revolutionary Santilli telescope with concave lenses (Trade Mark and patent pending by Thunder Energies). Thunder Energies Corporation has previously presented confirmations of the apparent existence of antimatter galaxies, antimatter asteroids and antimatter cosmic rays detected in preceding tests. In this breaking news, Thunder Energies presents evidence for the existence of Invisible Terrestrial Entities (ITE) of the dark and bright type. WOW – two groups of invisible entities in our world WOW – two groups – brights and darksScience validating scripture – or scripture validating scienceYou can spend all your time and energy into denying the truth and scripture Is it bringing you closer to GodIf we are truly approaching the end times Mat 24:37 “For just as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Rev 9 Then the truth and understanding of Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Could not be more relevant to a Christian One question: I have now another Messanic Hebrew friend who emailed me, and says the Angels as created Beings do not exist. This seems to come from the Lion of Judah teachings on videos.Cool – is this consistent with the bulk of scripture? = NO Perhaps you can convince him that cherub chata are the two most important words in scripture and all scripture must be read through that Ezk 28 filter to make sense I have answered your questions for a year – why do you refuse to answer my questions Please tell me why day 7 is not 24hrs Please explain to me the curse upon Cain And please please explain to me why you think something bad = sin God created nature in a balance – big fish eat smaller fish – God’s ‘Intelligent Design’ Why is nature a sin? God told / commanded Israel to kill – why did God make Israel sin? And according to your logic – this makes God a sinner also Please explain
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2020 14:59:29 GMT -5
You write well Dave Cool – is this consistent with the bulk of scripture? = NOYes nice answer WOW – two groups of invisible entities in our world WOW – two groups – brights and darksnice answer You can spend all your time and energy into denying the truth and scripture Is it bringing you closer to GodYou're right, so maybe it's time to forget teaching them? Evidence does not change a person's view does it? For example, you can show muscle and blood cellular components inside dino bone marrow to evolutionists and they still say dinos are millions of years old. They refute evidence to contrary. And with kindness I say this, the cherub chata with bara, does two things: proves cherubs are created real proves one cherub sinned... funny your book of Enoch says that too YES - scripture says they were sinning But before you get all excited that this validates your cherub chata theologyYou use Gnostic evidence, question, can you prove Enoch wrote scroll? People before flood had perfect memories, the torah was oral, not written down. I suspect somebody else wrote book of Enoch, not Enoch Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 1, 2021 13:25:36 GMT -5
Cool – is this consistent with the bulk of scripture? = NO Yes nice answer And with kindness I say this, the cherub chata with bara, does two things:Cool – is this consistent with the bulk of scripture? = NOI have begged you to show me a single verse to support your theology – it has been over a year now and you have failed to provide your evidence You continually push two unrelated and out of context verses and say it is all you need Evidence does not change a person's view does it?It should if they are honest seekers - honest investigators1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 1Th 5:20 do not despise prophetic messages, 1Th 5:21 but test all things, hold fast to what is good, Evidence does not change a person's view does it?Not if they are brain washed by denominational doctrine You can show these type of people the truth in scripture – and they will try to dismiss it as a metaphor For them - regardless of what scripture says – denominational doctrine is always supreme Evidence does not change a person's view does it?For example, you can show muscle and blood cellular components inside dino bone marrow to evolutionists and they still say dinos are millions of years old. They refute evidence to contrary. So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD? Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture? And your answer isAt least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter if it goes against Catholic doctrine I repeat - Cool – is this consistent with the bulk of scripture? = NOYou can spend all your time and energy into denying the truth and scripture Is it bringing you closer to God proves one cherub sinned... funny your book of Enoch says that tooThe Book of the Secrets of EnochX :3 … This place, O Enoch, is prepared for those who dishonour God, who on earth practise sin against nature … XVIII:3 … and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon … I wish you could read and grasp the English languageWhere did they sin – in heaven as you claim in front of God’s face cherub chata Question = Against whom – did they sin? Answer = nature / man / creation and absolutely NOT GOD can you prove Enoch wrote scroll? I suspect somebody else wrote book of Enoch, not EnochCan you prove Moses wrote the Torah? Who wrote the Book of Hebrews? – it was absolutely not Paul! How many authors are there to the Gospel of Mark – the very first Gospel to be written? (Answer - at least 4 different authors)Enoch is the second most quoted Book in the agl Jesus used names and terms from the writings of King Solomon And the common folk of the day – knew what he was talking about – it was common knowledge Enoch was found among the temple Scrolls Enoch was found complete with the Dead Sea Scrolls You can spend all your time and energy into denying the truth and scripture Is it bringing you closer to God You're right, so maybe it's time to forget teaching them? Evidence does not change a person's view does it?Question – does it matter what you believe – as long as you believe in something religious Dave’s Answer – of course it doesAs of April 1, 2019 1.8 billion Muslims believe that Allah is the One True Creator, Mohammad was his only prophet, and God has no son. As of April 4, 2020 16.5 million Later Day Saints believe that God was once a man who became enlightened and had twin sons Jesus and satan Does it matter what you believe and what is the point of man-made religionThis is exactly why BELIEF is not the end stage of a Personal Relationship with the Father What is the point of religion and belief – my opinion – anything that keeps you from the truth The end point / the goal of Christianity is to be Born Again and walk in Spiritual Communion with the Lord Any belief that keeps you from this goal = archon inspired religion Looks like Christianity – smell like it – acts like it – as long as it keeps you from “remembering who you are and your true mission on the this earth” Joh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Do not be surprised that I said to you, ‘You all must be born from above.’ 99% of Christianity hold these words dear You and your SDA doctrine preach against this – man has no spirit – man has no soul – man is an animal with only memoriesRev 14:4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been redeemed from among mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb. 99% of Christianity hold these words dearYou and your SDA do not even teach this – you only goal is the grave to wait for the First Resurrection100% of Judaism and 99% of Christianity teach that God’s creation is beautiful and gloriousYou and the SDA say as you look around all you can see is the evidence if sin and the credit belongs to satanYou and your SDA Great Controversy is not consistent with the bulk of scripture You and your SDA Great Controversy is a Roman invention and has nothing to do with Judasim It is a different religion than Judaism Jesus says – a house divided against itself cannot stand – it is a stupid ideaYET – your Great Controversy preaches that – God’s Kingdom is divided against itself Roman Christendom is a different religion than Judaism and therefore different then Messianic JudaismIsn’t it fascinating that the true difference has nothing to do with the personage of ChristAnd everything to do with the elevation of satan to a position of strong authority / leader of a large God opposing army / the commander of evil / godhood
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 16:27:25 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Over the year, I have shown you an opposer does oppose GOD. Any creature sinning by definition opposes God. Only in Gnosticism does this definition become negated, since it says God created sinning creatures on purpose to test humans to sin, which God does not allow. I showed you a serpent speaking to Eve is in fact not edifying GOD in doing so, and in fact twists truth, thus is sinning to Eve as it speaks. I also have showed you the opposer speaking to GOD about saving JOB, disagrees that GOD is complete. To disagree with GOD, is by definition a sin as well. You ignore the text that says cherub chata, so yes angels did sin long time ago, and still sin today. So stop writing your mocking material as you do, you place me in a poor light. I believe man has a soul, and the spirit is our character developed by God. www.benwilliamslibrary.com/pdfs/The%20Cherub%20Unmasked%20Pt.%202.pdfI am currently studying this Paul BUnch material, so silly all these religions in the USA. Bunch says cherub are humans, supposed to be guarding things for God. Bunch also does not like the meaning of bara, so changes it. Dave you do the same with Ezekiel, you ignore the poetry similes with man and angels. Bunch says man was guarding the garden. Yes I agree, but guarding the garden from what? An enemy/ BUnch says all enemies are imagined. The enemy is a serpent. a cherub who sinned. But Bunch says cherub are mortal humans. Doesn't anybody read the Hebrew as it reads? DO we understand simile ? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 2, 2021 10:03:44 GMT -5
Over the year, I have shown you an opposer does oppose GOD. No you haven’t – I have listened to you deny scripture
Job 23:13 He is unchangeable, and who can change Him? Whatever His soul desires, He does.
H7725 – שׁוּב - A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: - circumcise, dig, do evil, weep, (cause to) answer carry again (back), cease, convert, deny, draw back, hinder, pervert, recall, recompense, reverse, say nay, send back, slide back, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn, backward, withdraw
LXX - G2919 - Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, call in question,
Who can oppose God – No One!
Any creature sinning by definition opposes God. Here is your assumption - please defend it Sinning – what is sinning – please define it
You say precepts have only a one word meaning I asked you to define sin – and you gave me a long list of things You even concluded – most everything is sin You insist that looking through a telescope or microscope, out the window – or on the news = all you can see is the result of sin Volcanoes and earthquakes are a result of sin you say You say = There is a sin problem Dave – don’t I know that Yet – you will not define the term
Then you say = Any creature sinning by definition opposes God. OK – what is the definition
I say it is very simple – and I can put it into one word = choice The choice to seek God – listen to God – know God – to obey God And this choice is only afforded to man – because we are the only creature that has choice
This is Free Will – a Free Will choice – to seek and obey God If you make this choice – it is a mitzvah – a right choice
1 Kings 22 – a spirit – a ruwach – either from the right hand or the left hand Volunteers to be a deceiving spirit – to cause harm – to facilitate God’s Will You will not explain to me why it is a sin to obey the Lord – or to act in the service of the Lord Any creature sinning by definition opposes God Is it a sin to be a deceiving spirit?
I showed you a serpent speaking to Eve is in fact not edifying GOD in doing so, and in fact twists truth, thus is sinning to Eve as it speaks. The serpent told the truth – just not the whole truth – and you say that is a sin God told the truth – just not the whole truth also – is your God a sinner
I also have showed you the opposer speaking to GOD about saving JOB, disagrees that GOD is complete. To disagree with GOD, is by definition a sin as well.
Job 1:8 Adonai said to the satan, “Did you notice my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth—a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil.” Job 1:9 Then the satan responded to Adonai, saying, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Job 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him, his household, and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands and his possessions have increased in the land. Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!” Job 1:12 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Everything he has is in your hand. Only do not extend your hand against him!” So the satan departed from the presence of Adonai.
God asked his servant satan a question If satan is a good servant to the Lord – his answer to God must be the truth – the whole truth – and nothing but the truth
Job is every man – we are all Job When we have it well – we are loyal and happy When it is not well – we are grumpy rebels screaming injustice Just ask any government Satan’s answer to God is the truth of 99% of all men everywhere How would your neighbors respond in Job’s situation? Job is that 1% Prodigal Son that God test for
… God created sinning creatures on purpose … Yes – God created man on purpose Only in Gnosticism does this definition become negated, since it says God created sinning creatures on purpose to test humans to sin, which God does not allow. If their design is to test humans – they why is it a sin to fulfil their function within nature
You ignore the text that says cherub chata, so yes angels did sin long time ago, and still sin today. … you ignore the poetry similes with man and angels.
Ezk 28 is all about a man – the King of Tyre And man – is the highest creature in the heavens next to God Man will judge the angels in the end Man was created perfect – and was perfect – until man choose to disobey
So stop writing your mocking material as you do, you place me in a poor light. Nothing personal Robert – but your SDA satanology is an entirely different religion than The Messianic Judaism of the First Christians Your God is not absolute and has a divided kingdom according to your Great Controversy With another strong authority in opposition to God
This is nothing like the absolute One True Creator of Judaism
1Sa 12:15 But if you do not listen to the voice of Adonai and rebel against the command of Adonai, then the hand of Adonai will be against you and against your fathers.
In Judaism satan is the hand of God – a servant of God following God instruction – to facilitate God’s Will In Judaism God test man – to see if man loves God with all his heart, mind, and soul In Judaism God test man looking for that Job 1%
In the agl – we are told – God does not do all this testing and tempting Himself In the agl – we are told – God loves us so much, he lets us go – hoping we return as the Prodigal Son
Everything the agl says about satan is correct Everything the agl says about the devil is correct and a different entity /spirit/being Yes the devil can be called a satan – does not make them the same personage Everything the agl says about the Beast is correct also and a different entity /spirit/being Yes the Beast can be called a satan – does not make them the same personage
It is just surprising that someone with all your satan expertise refuses to properly identify them
Everything the agls says about the network of archon against us is a multi-pronged / multi-layered attack by multiple type entities/spirits/ beings (archons)
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
It is just surprising that someone with all your satan expertise refuses to properly identify them either
I am currently studying this Paul Bunch material, so silly all these religions in the USA. I have no idea who he is – but I see the jab at something in the USA Bunch says cherub are humans, supposed to be guarding things for God. Again – I have no idea who he is – but I do recognize the call – Ezk 28 metaphor equates man to cherub – agree Who are cherub – among the highest order of heavenly beings/angelic beings/archon – and man is there also I also recognize his metaphor – scripturally – cherub guard things / protect things agreed
Dave you do the same with Ezekiel, you ignore the poetry similes with man and angels. No – I think both Bunch and I see man equated with angles You are the one refusing to yield cherub chata
Bunch says man was guarding the garden. Yes I agree, but guarding the garden from what? Hmmmm? A cherub as a man – interesting – I have always seen that cherub as a spirit being angel But angels are often seen as men – cool – won’t argue
But Bunch says cherub are mortal humans. Angels are often seen as men And all mortal men are also spirit beings/entities/ heavenly beings
but guarding the garden from what? DUH Robert – the angel was opposing man – specifically Adam and Eve from reentering the Garden
An enemy/ BUnch says all enemies are imagined. Hmmmm? Would have to hear more – but All agony is self-imposed
Mid-Evil Europe (Catholic) – yourself included – see everyone and everything as sin and evil I say – what dose the weather – my neighbor – my government – my education – my cultural programming – have to do with my choice to Seek God?
Why is submitting to a vaccine – alter my choice to seek God
Rom 12:1 I urge you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice—holy, acceptable to God—which is your spiritual service. Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Mat 22:21 “Caesar’s,” they said to Him. Then He said to them, “Give therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
Living sacrifice - which is your spiritual service Mat_10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Luk_12:4 “I say to you, My friends, you should not be afraid of those who kill the body, since after this they have nothing more they can do.
Do not be conformed to this world Question – does this mean we should join a Christian pro-life movement or join a protest or even a boycott of GMO goods
The enemy is a serpent. a cherub who sinned. Catholic mythology You only enemy is your SELF – your very own yester ra that came with the animal body you are wearing True there are powers and principalities – sometime demons – sometimes satan – sometime God that put obstacles in our path – because God test His people
Bunch also does not like the meaning of bara, so changes it. Bara = to fatten E= mc2 – E fattened into m and c2 If you say it can only mean to engineer – then God violates His own Laws by creating something out of nothing E cannot be created or destroyed – only translated or transmuted
I believe man has a soul, and the spirit is our character developed by God. Sorry Robert – you and I are not discussing the same thing at all
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 15:08:57 GMT -5
You asked me to defined chata: it means to miss.
Since everything of matter comes from GOD, than humans are matter with the ability to choose GOD or not choose GOD. Hence you say "sin" is a choice. Yes a choice, but only if you have free will. Volcanoes blowing up are matter but have no ability to choose God.
Adam was given charge over the entire matter on earth, a prince if you will. Thus all sense of missing GOD comes from man directly. Adam was a prince over the entire Creation. So when ADAM chose to miss God, all of the matter also began missing.
You say when Adam missed God he did not daily immediately die that instant. I say Adam did. That is what missing means. Adam did begin decaying that very instant. In fact some Hebrew words imply that living in missing, requires the continuous grace of God. Hence when GOD removes His grace your mortal being ends suddenly in mortal death.
So when the serpent said you will not dying die, this is a lie.
Just because the serpent sinned long time before and did not die, he assumes that one can be sinning and still live with God, despite missing God.
It is impossible for one to live without perfection, living while not perfect is impossible, yet humans are able to achieve this, only because God is kind, ie grace, each day is a miracle to allow you more probation.
So missing GOD is a very big deal, but God's grace overcomes our missing.
When you seek salvation from missing, God ignores sin-offerings not unto death, and you as a sinner now declared straight, fight daily the fight of faith.
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You say bara involved filling the quantum from nothing. I would disagree.
one Hebrew word, used once, so we cannot discuss it much
Hab 3:4 And his brightness <nogahh> was as the light <'owr>; he had horns <qeren> coming out of his hand <yad>: and there was the hiding <chebyown> of his power <`oz>.
Something, not nothing came from the Creators hand, during Creation.
You say the opposing angel only answered the question of God over Job's perfect completion in Salvation.
That there is nothing opposing in the angel's answer?
Answer these questions Dave
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge <suwk> about him,
Why is salvation (the person) hedging us? From whom? Why do we need protecting?
Doth Job <'Iyowb> fear <yare'> God <'elohiym> for nought <chinnam>?
Why does the supporter of God have to fear God ? What charge is this opposer bringing up here?
I need not battle so much over the subtil words of the opposing angel, I need only ask, where Adam's missing come from? From Himself? From God? or from Somebody else who deceived Adam to miss GOD?
Missing is about relationship. Hence to miss requires one to miss having a relationship. So how come Adam chose to miss having a relationship perfectly with God?
You say God intentionally designed a Being to Test man, having this perfect relationship already, and wants the perfect relationship to be end in missing. That kind of creation is a violation of GOD, Dave; you cannot have a God of love wanting to test His love by ending that love.
The torah does not agree with you. Missing God was never designed by God. God created creatures to remain perfectly with GOD for eternity. Including angels.
But now Scripture speaks of an opposing angel.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
The angels were perfect in the days of their creation, just like man, could also miss God if they chose to. Hence the poetry simile parallel. They were also assigned to guard the laws of God, the words. Again just as man was to guard his garden, and protect the garden from enemies.
What enemies were in the Eden garden? Well darkness was there, in the darkness were angels who sinned long time ago.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
See the angels sinned, just as man sinned, and lost his first beginnings, just as many angels also lost their first beginnings. Its a parallel in poetry.
As soon as you lose GOD, miss out on GOD, you miss the perfection of GOD and this is termed sin.
It happened to angels a long time ago.
One of these angels is speaking to God over God's right to save Job from missing.
You hedge him, the angel says.
Now hedging, just like guarding, tells us that salvation is about protecting the sinner from further missing. So somebody is influencing the follower to keep on sinning. The hedge prevents this influence.
Notice GOD has a hedge to prevent this influence.
You say GOD intentionally want his love to be tested.
I say the hedge prevents His love from being tested, to protect the sinner from missing.
True the tempter does tempt us to do missing. Scripture say resist the devil and He will flee from you. Sounds like a fight, rather than a test. A fight to support God, rather than miss God.
Notice the power of the opposing angel is administrated by GOD, even though they oppose each other, just as sinning sinners also oppose GOD, the sinner is still supported by God for a probation time.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 3, 2021 0:09:37 GMT -5
You asked me to defined chata: it means to miss. Since everything of matter comes from GOD, than humans are matter with the ability to choose GOD or not choose GOD. Hence you say "sin" is a choice. Yes a choice, but only if you have free will. Absolutely agree – choice – a free will choice – and man is the only creature that can choose – this is why man is special above all animal’s and angels
Volcanoes blowing up are matter but have no ability to choose God. YES! Nature have nothing to do with sin It is not a sin for a lion to kill to feed its self-preservation – it is the only choice the lion has If God tell Joshua to go to war – then Joshua tells General A to tell Captain B – to tell Sargent C to tell private D to kill without mercy – kill women – and children hiding behind their mothers – kill everyone – a complete genocide – which one of these men following God’s Will is the sinner – all of them? This is nature – and has nothing to do with each individual’s choice to Seek God
For the earth to grow and stretch into the world we know today – there was a lot of RA Volcanoes and earth quakes and floods rearranged the globe several times over And all of it caused harm in the process
Dinos could have roamed the earth for a million years fighting over food and territory Sharks could have ate the weak and tired of the oceans – the function they were designed for Plants grew – and some had thorns and thistles All of it nature – so much Ra in Balance with life And none of it has anything to do with sin
Because sin belongs to the creature that can sin / make the choice to sin / MAN
Rom 5:17 For if by the one man’s transgression, death reigned through the one, how much more shall those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Messiah Yeshua. Rom 5:18 So then, through the transgression of one, condemnation came to all men; likewise, through the righteousness of one came righteousness of life to all men. Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many will be set right forever.
Rom 5:17 God said if you die (present tense) you will die (future perfect tense)
So when the serpent said you will not dying die, this is a lie. The difference between us is the spirit You deny the spirit and can only see the physical world
You say when Adam missed God he did not daily immediately die that instant. I say Adam did. That is what missing means. Adam did begin decaying that very instant. In fact some Hebrew words imply that living in missing, requires the continuous grace of God. Hence when GOD removes His grace your mortal being ends suddenly in mortal death.
You are correct – Adam and Eve would have never suffered a mortal death – if they had not sinned You are correct – Adam and Eve (man / humanity) became mortal that day as all other animal are / were / have always been
God said if you die (present tense) you will die (future perfect tense) The Serpent said not - if you die (present tense) you will die (future perfect tense) So when the serpent said you will not dying die, this is a lie. Every Christian is given the promise of eternal life through simple belief and a Divine Pardon So even tho you may die a mortal death does not mean you must suffer the Lake of Fire You consider this a lie – really – are you sure
Adam was given charge over the entire matter on earth, a prince if you will. Thus all sense of missing GOD comes from man directly. Adam was a prince over the entire Creation. So when ADAM chose to miss God, all of the matter also began missing.
Rom 5:18 So then, through the transgression of one, condemnation came to all men; likewise, through the righteousness of one came righteousness of life to all men. Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many will be set right forever.
Through one man sin is translated – passed on to – inherited by all men / humanity = man not sharks
Just because the serpent sinned long time before and did not die, he assumes that one can be sinning and still live with God, despite missing God. Gosh Robert – for a Christian this is called salvation in exchange for repentance – and true repentance results in the Baptism of the HS – a Divine pardon – so we can what – have eternal life with God – even tho we were once sinners
So missing GOD is a very big deal, but God's grace overcomes our missing. Agreed – for man And God’s grace is extended to man
Jude 1:6 / 2Pe 2:4 - the bane elohiym angels of Gen 6 than sinned against man and nature are not given any hope of reprieve
God’s grace is extended to man -------------------
You say bara involved filling the quantum from nothing. I would disagree. Something, not nothing came from the Creators hand, during Creation. And it fattened – enlarged – expanded into all creation - Agreed
I need not battle so much over the subtil words of the opposing angel, I need only ask, where Adam's missing come from? From Himself? From God? or from Somebody else who deceived Adam to miss GOD? Why do you need to asign blame for your sin on someone or something else Not my fauly - the devil made me do it is an EXCUSE
The torah does not agree with you. Missing God was never designed by God. God created creatures to remain perfectly with GOD for eternity. Including angels. Correct - then God gifted man with the Free Will choice to leave and God loves us so much - He lets us go - into the world
Mat 10:16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
The Archon were cast into physical creation in gen 1:2 – Correct This was Archon land until dominion was given to man – Correct See the angels sinned, just as man sinned, and lost his first beginnings, just as many angels also lost their first beginnings. Its a parallel in poetry. It happened to angels a long time ago. Jude 1:6 and 2 Pe 2:4 Ezk 28 comes a long time after Gen 6
One of these angels is speaking to God over God's right to save Job from missing. YES! – this is the function of a prosceutor You hedge him, the angel says. Now hedging, just like guarding, tells us that salvation is about protecting the sinner from further missing. So somebody is influencing the follower to keep on sinning. The hedge prevents this influence.
So somebody is influencing the follower to keep on sinning. What is sin = choice – the archon and their world do try to keep you sidetracked – so you do not have the time to choose Their mission = to keep man from remembering who we are – spirit that once was in the presence of God – and to whom God gave each of us a personal commission / asignmnet / mission to remember and witness to the Glory of God in this world – for all the heaven to see
Notice GOD has a hedge to prevent this influence. It is called being in communion with the Lord spirit to spirit Can you hear the influencing voices of the archon wile praying in the spirit – NO And you see these archon for who they are
Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
You say GOD intentionally want his love to be tested. God says / scriptures says – God test man to see if man loves God with all his heart, mind, and soul I do not know why you deny scripture Shall I list the verse yet again
True the tempter does tempt us to do missing. Scripture say resist the devil and He will flee from you. Sounds like a fight, rather than a test. A fight to support God, rather than miss God. OK – how do these temptations cause man to miss/choose not to seek God They side track us / keep us busy with something else / keep us focuses on anything other than seeking God
This is the Gnostic Contest between man and the world Is is not about two opposing gods at war with one another
Notice the power of the opposing angel is administrated by GOD, even though they oppose each other, just as sinning sinners also oppose GOD, the sinner is still supported by God for a probation time. Correct – absolutely agree
1Sa 12:15 But if you do not listen to the voice of Adonai and rebel against the command of Adonai, then the hand of Adonai will be against you and against your fathers.
The archon are used like a tool by God – the (left)hand of God - for God – to facilitate God’s Will This is their function within creation – it does not give them mankind’s gift of Free Will Choice
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 15:46:04 GMT -5
There is a lot of similar thoughts between us Dave.
But also differences.
I do not deny the spirit within us. This gift given to us is a quality of GOD, allowing mere matter to be a little lower than elohiym, as the torah says. We have no power over this quality of God after we die in sleep because the torah says so. Only when this quality of God is partnered to matter, does the human soul come into living energy.. Thus only than does the combination of humanity with divinity, allow the human living energy to speak and do and think.
Why do you say angels have no free will? Are they not intelligent able to worship God because they choose to. Ezekiel 28 says some angels sinned, suggesting to me that angels can choose to sin. And this further suggests if angels can choose to sin, they can also choose to repent back to the Father-YHWH again, and remain loyal to GOD as before. But this leads to the question why did God have to die for man's sins over angelic mischief, when God did not die for angels who sinned and repented back to God again? Some things are hard to fathom.
D" God says / scriptures says – God test man to see if man loves God with all his heart, mind, and soul I do not know why you deny scripture
You fail here to imagine the utopia bliss of a universe without sinning and without ra of any kind. If such a universe can exist, why not since God is perfectly absolutely powerful, than nothing imperfect exists. No need to test love with Ra if love is based on choice. No need to test choice ever again, if the follower knows the outcome of a ra-choice.
This is why Nahum says sin will never come a second time. Because all the creatures know to outcome of their choice, so they choose love all the time.
DO you even consider that GOD could and will create a perfect universe without ra and sin?
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You say sinning angels was a tool to test man to sin? That is an oxymoron.
God does not create sinning agents to test man to sin, while not wanting man to sin.
If there was a perfect universe without ra and sin, there is no need for testing the choice to love.
If I write a DNA program to respond in certain ways, I do not need to test my creatures to respond negatively to my program. But if I foreknew ra and sin existed already in my world, I would have to write a DNA program to cope with both possibilities, since man can choose a negative outcome, so the DNA program has to cope with this choice also, hence I need error checking software, etc, etc.
In fact your whole "The archon are used like a tool by God " idea is a way to negating the origin of sin. In fact you have the origin of sin with GOD, designed by God.
That is NOT how the Moses torah teaches us.
The serpent Being was not designed sinning by GOD at all.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
For both man and angels, as this poetry simile parallels, King Tyre and King Angel, were both perfect until iniquity was found in both creatures.
Where does the iniquity come from? Its origin? It's a choice. Doesn't need an origin, it starts by the creature choosing to negate God.
This is NOT an excuse for my choice to sin, but simply an account about where sinning came from.
A long time ago, some angel decided to sin. And He being an angel is more subtil at sinning than humans are at sinning.
Yes I agree, when you are praying to GOD, there is no room for a third party, hence sinning is not possible, and the sinning angels leave you alone.
Our sinning stems always when we forget to support God second by second with our thoughts, instead we do things using human power, self. We have no excuse for our choice. I agree.
In Lev 16, the scapegoat is a symbol of the first angel who chose sinning, and all the sinning the righteous did, paid for by Jesus, is transferred unto this scapegoat and lead into the desert to die from those sins. Its a story of where sin came from. Not about making excuses, but about where sin first came from, and Gods ways to removing sin as a choice forever.
In the new earth and universe, there are no traces of ra and sin, except the scars in the hands and feet of Jesus, this is the only physical ra evidence for eternity. Everything else is perfect. So yes God is capable of making a perfect world without ra for some creatures, while some other creatures have ra, and this is still perfect. Jesus will for eternity have a traces of ra on his body and will cause both tears of joy to the saints everytime we see Him in this way.
No need to test or try our choices to love, because we have already been tried and tested in a ra world. Now there is no ra world for us, but only Jesus remains a memorial of ra and sin, and we humans along with angels will never choose to negate God ever again.
D" YES! – this is the function of a prosecutor
Show me Scripture of an angel in judgement with GOD over humans functioning as a prosecutor? There are not any Dave.
There are some where the opposing angel opposes man's right to being saved, because the opposing angel is jealous, for several reasons:
1) every time a man is saved, that is a witness against sin, and the origin of sin 2) every time a man is saved, that spells the end of the kingdom of sin, and those who do sin
The sinning angels like to sin like man does, and does not want their kingdom of sinning to end. But it will end in the Lake of Fire and sinning by man or angels will be no more.
God has a different process to judging than human courts, all the books record everything. Every hidden thought and deed written down and recorded. How? Well the DNA is a recording system too, chemically writes every action we do. Angels also record things. God records things. No need for any court process, but simply creatures to read the books.
D" They side track us / keep us busy with something else / keep us focuses on anything other than seeking God
R Yes they do. Stop us making choices to support God.
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No comment about a hedge Dave?
What does a hedge do? Protect, prevent archon tempting us to sin.
Any creature who says GOD remove your hedge, is saying a sin.
Jesus, also called salvation is a shield, a wall, a hedge, to protect humans from influences.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Sinning influences come from the devil, the first of angels who sinned. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. There is a war here already in this verse. That is why we have a hedge when we come to Jesus.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus speaks of the first angel who sinned as a father of sins, and the Jews sadly in his day were supporting the father of sins, and sinning with this sinning angel also.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The Prince of Planet Earth is to be destroyed by Jesus, when He is lifted up on the pole, the two saraph Beings are in conflict. Both were lifted up on the pole in Moses time. One was a Saviour the other a Destroyer. Both burning Beings, both surrounded the throne of the Father. One saraph decided to sin, the other remains sinless and with divinity.
When did Jesus call this sinning angel and his kingdom a prince? Because He is a prince, or was. Jesus is prince of earth now, but allows the other prince some time before Jesus ends all things.
Fisherman take weeks to bring fresh fish back to market. One fisherman always had the freshest fish. His secret was to place the best fish in cages in the sea, caught alive they swam in the cage. To keep the fish alert he place a baby shark in the cage as well. If the shark was not there, the fish would tire from a lack of freedom and so sleep in the cage. So the shark tempts the fish, and the fish stay alert. This works only in a world of ra, Dave.
There is a curse when we follow Jesus:
Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
When we have Jesus we are happy, than we forget Jesus cause no bad things happen.
Our bodies are wired to experience tov and ra because of the sin of Adam, so how do we overcome this problem? Easy, give away your blessings to others, and you will never tire of Jesus flowing into you.
No need for archons, just give away your fruit, and in serving others we are served by Jesus.
Shalom my friend, Thanks for you words and our relationship If we agreed to everything, we would not write so, and our lives would be bored That is why GOD made torah confusing and difficult to fathom It keep us digging for truth
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2021 0:48:14 GMT -5
Why do you say angels have no free will? Are they not intelligent able to worship God because they choose to. Ezekiel 28 says some angels sinned, suggesting to me that angels can choose to sin. And this further suggests if angels can choose to sin, they can also choose to repent back to the Father-YHWH again, and remain loyal to GOD as before. But this leads to the question why did God have to die for man's sins over angelic mischief, when God did not die for angels who sinned and repented back to God again? Some things are hard to fathom.I do not believe angels have free will – nor does any RabbiI spent some time in research today for this post – to make it as simple as possible I will just put it into my own words – as I understand Free Will – only means the freedom to choose – the freedom to seek God or notJudaism says – angels cannot have free will because it is not their functionEach level of hierarchy of angels represents a function Luk 1:19 – angels have names – because they are individual beings / entities / spirit beings Michaels function is to be a warrior – it is his job – Gab-briel (whom I ponder as female) – is always associated with child birth and trouble Raphael is a healer And every angel has an assignment – a job – a function Enoch tells us that some angels stoke the furnaces of the stars – and some angels maintain the orbits – some angels act as jailers – and some angels keep the store houses – etc Christian theology also says some good-guy angels serve as ‘guardian angels’ Christian theology says that the lowest order of angels are called principalities (archon) They are the ones closest to man From Eph 6 – we know these archon to be in opposition to man – as in Gen 3:15 Every angelic being was made for a purpose – a function within God’s KingdomImagine creation if the angels stopped doing their job This is as stupid as saying wake up tomorrow and all the cows will be quantum physicistJude 1:6 and 2 Pe 2:4 – the sinning angels (the bane elohiym that sinned against man and nature) are not given to opportunity to repent for their sinns against man and nature in Gen 6Mat 8:29 And, behold,(possessing demons/archon) they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? No opportunity for repentance – their fate is sealed and they know it
Your satan and all the archon know full well their fates You suggest – that 1/3rd of all God’s angels choose this fate deliberately Question – why don’t your satan fall to his knees and beg forgiveness Answer – no option for repentance Answer – the remaing prophesies of scripture would fail to be completed Is this the Will of God - for scripture to be unfulfilled Sorry Robert - the archon are locked into their role as much as man is - or the angels The Powers were deliberately made for a function The Principalities (archon) were made for a function Satan is a function – satan serve a purpose The archon serve a functionNo Free Will Choice to repent – no free will choice to choose God They simply perform their role within creation as assigned – as created Man’s function – the creature that can choose – the creature that has that Free will ChoiceWhy do you say angels have no free will? Are they not intelligent able to worship God because they choose to.NO – they only do as they are designed Cows only do with they do / ant/ fish/ birds/ all designed for a different role within creation There is NO EVOLUTION – each species after its own kindA good-guy angel did not recreate himself into a different creature called satan Other good-guy angels did not evolve into the ugly shedim described by King Solomon D" God says / scriptures says – God test man to see if man loves God with all his heart, mind, and soul I do not know why you deny scripture You fail here to imagine the utopia bliss of a universe without sinning and without ra of any kind. If such a universe can exist, why not since God is perfectly absolutely powerful, than nothing imperfect exists. No need to test love with Ra if love is based on choice. You fail here to imagine the utopia You are right Robert – I do not spend time in fantasy – I tend to deal with reality If such a universe can exist, why not Because the Contest came first Established by God in gen 3:15 And the contest is not yet complete DO you even consider that GOD could and will create a perfect universe without ra and sin?YES! God will – Rev chpt 21-22 It is in the future – it is not the reality we live in today This is why Nahum says sin will never come a second time. Because all the creatures know to outcome of their choice, so they choose love all the time. BS – because the Beast, the devil, the false prophets, and your satan were all cast into the lake of fire – which is the second death----- You say sinning angels was a tool to test man to sin? That is an oxymoron.Yes it is – nice try to misrepresent the words – word manI know you understand my position – yet you keep using incorrect vocabulary to mock scripture 1- you have not proven to me that obeying the Lord is a sin Again you confuse this word sin as something you do 2- no one except you say the archon test you to sin The test = they temp you to sin – the choice is yours They cannot force you to sin – they do not make your choices for you – stop making excuses God does not create sinning agents to test man to sin, while not wanting man to sin.All you have to do is tear the Book of Job out of your Bible In fact your whole "The archon are used like a tool by God " idea is a way to negating the origin of sin. In fact you have the origin of sin with GOD, designed by God.Sin = a man only thing – only man sins – and Adam = all humanity All men are sinners – we are the only creature that can chooseThe serpent Being was not designed sinning by GOD at all. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. You just assume that the serpent is the same being as Ezk 28’s King of TyreWhere does the iniquity come from? Its origin? It's a choice. Doesn't need an origin, it starts by the creature choosing to negate God.You asked me to defined chata: it means to miss. Since everything of matter comes from GOD, than humans are matter with the ability to choose GOD or not choose GOD. Hence you say " sin" is a choice. Yes a choice, but only if you have free will. Sin = a Free Will Choice by man The first sin was Eve – then Adam – then all humanityD" YES! – this is the function of a prosecutor Show me Scripture of an angel in judgement with GOD over humans functioning as a prosecutor? There are not any Dave.We have been all over this – Judaism, Christianity, and Gnosticism are all in agreement here You look at the words and only see your doctrine Either you deliberately choose to deny scripture in defense of your satan doctrine Or you simple have a reading comprehension problem
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2021 1:29:00 GMT -5
R is this a bias? God is love we are told. God does not sin. You asked me to defined chata: it means to miss. Since everything of matter comes from GOD, than humans are matter with the ability to choose GOD or not choose GOD. Hence you say " sin" is a choice. Yes a choice, but only if you have free will. Volcanoes blowing up are matter but have no ability to choose God. I am confused as to which Robert to followSin = the choice for God or not Rather the sin is the wrong choice between God or not Question – if this is your definition of sin How can you now say God does not sin – as if was something to do You use terms interchangeably and you do not stick to your own definitions
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 14:15:16 GMT -5
OH I see. Good point.
This depends upon how you define elohiym powers.
You have cardinally one elohiym powers, with three members that are expressions of each other. I find this kind of thing hard to fathom, bit like an octopus with say 3 arms, each is connected to one mind. With your theory Elohiym powers cannot love for love is relational, and so having three expressions of yourself is more or less loving self. Except self doesn't exist in a perfect world, as everything God is truly rational.
For example, consider the way the royal law is a summary of love
Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Bible writers have a habit of writing short cuts, this is not the full torah.
Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge <naqam>, nor bear any grudge <natar> against the children <ben> of thy people <`am>, but thou shalt love <'ahab> thy neighbour <rea`> as thyself <k@mow>: I am the LORD <Y@hovah>
Jeff Benner points out this Hebrew word "k@mow" does not mean "thyself" it means "like", to compare with.
SO we love our neighbour as GOD loves us. Its a comparison.
Notice Jesus says 2 great laws of love, not 3 great laws of love, self love is not described.
Here is another example
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie,
If God cannot lie, than God cannot sin. In order to sin, God must break having a relationship with GOD.
This proves God is relational, with three members of elohiym powers, which is a divine family kind.
You describe this as polytheism, but these are not three gods of creative power, nor can they create on their own without their consort, despite your Gnostic writings, hence why I reject your writings so.
Love in Hebrew comes in three forms, there are two Hebrew words for love
The ahab and the ahabuh. A child like love can have both.
SO the Oscars Razor is to have one family of love. This love only becomes creative when the love sparks as one source of love, One love provides, the other love responds and the third love collects. Thus you have one source of love, not three sources of love, as each personality of loving is unique and different.
Hebrew call this compound unity "echad". When two become one flesh in marriage. This term was invented by God in Eden.
So if The HS created without her consort, that would be a sin. Yet you have Gnostic writings saying this. You say the left hand of YHWH alone does things without right hand knowing. That statement makes God a liar, God knows all things of Himself, and GOD cannot lie, meaning GOD cannot sin. Therefore GOD is a family of love.
I have shown you before if the members of elohiym powers separate, this causes a "death" experience, not the first death of sleeping under God's watchful eye, but the second death where God does not exist as love that provides and responds.
When Jesus was on the earth, the opposing angel had to get Jesus to do one act of sin. If Jesus is of divine origin, as well as having humanity added, than Jesus had a choice to choose which powers to respond to, His own divinity or that of humanity. Humans who are humans also have two sources of power, to use our own powers of self (break away from God) or allow GOD's powers to flow through us.
Everything Jesus did, He did via the power of the Father flowing through Him. We term this faith. Jesus always supported His Father.
The opposing angel tried to get Jesus to sin, jump off the cliff he said for torah says the Father will stop you falling. But Jesus replied saying
De 6:16 Ye shall not tempt <nacah> the LORD <Y@hovah> your God <'elohiym>, as ye tempted <nacah> him in Massah <Maccah>.
Notice the negative context of nacah is used, to get GOD to sin. The positive context of nacah is to test, but Jesus didn't say that. So using the torah to increase your own presumption is getting GOD to sin, and God will not do that.
Here is an example of the angel trying to get Jesus to sin, proves the angel is opposing God, for to get Jesus to sin, Jesus had to break off divinity with His Father.
These are two examples where in fact GOD could sin, but doesn't. They show that elohiym powers is a family of powers considered as compound unity.
Judges is a example of this. Each judge is the same in authority as the other judges.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2021 17:06:20 GMT -5
This depends upon how you define elohiym powers. You have cardinally one elohiym powers, with three members that are expressions of each other. I find this kind of thing hard to fathom, bit like an octopus with say 3 arms, each is connected to one mind. Your example is a deliberate miss-representation of the Trinity There is only one God (E) – there is no other personage Man cannot experience God (E) – or man will surely die But man can experience God as spirit (c2) = HS or in the form of a man = (m) Christ
With your theory Elohiym powers cannot love for love is relational, and so having three expressions of yourself is more or less loving self. Except self doesn't exist in a perfect world, as everything God is truly rational.
I have no idea of your point here There is only one God and He loves his creation – this love is perfect and pure and because it is absolute it seems very harsh at times
In all of God’s creation – there is only one special creature that can choose to love God back of their own Free Will = man This is why man is more special than the angels – they simply obey and serve God’s love is so amazing – that He lets man go into the world
The world and its yester ra is an powerful biological instinctive part of being an animal
Yet – some men rise above this world to recognize what is in our sight There is only One True Absolute Creator and it is our mission / commission to witness to this fact Abraham No matter what the world threw at Job – his awareness and respect of God never faltered Job is a Prodigal Son – the one who returns to the Father out of his own choice
In all of God’s creation – there is only one special creature that can choose to love God back of their own Free Will – the Prodigal Son And God test His people looking for them Except God temps no man directly – He has a staff for that
For example, consider the way the royal law is a summary of love SO we love our neighbour as GOD loves us. Its a comparison.
Notice Jesus says 2 great laws of love, not 3 great laws of love, self love is not described. How did God love us – He came to earth in the body of Jesus to witness of God Glory – then he gave up His mortal body and returned to God Man is made in God’s image – From God we came – we souljourn here to witness God’s Glory – we die a mortal death and we return to God
If God cannot lie, than God cannot sin. In order to sin, God must break having a relationship with GOD. How is a lie a choice for God or not If I tell Ugly Betty that she looks pretty today – does this mean I refuse to love God? When my wife asks if her ass is fat – if I do not hurt her feeling or my marriage – does this mean I do not choose God?
If I lie to God – that is a sin If I lie and say there is no God – or God has no Son – that is a sin But – If I say I am 6 foot tall when I am only 5’10” – does this mean I hate God
Please define sin again -
For example, consider the way the royal law is a summary of love SO we love our neighbour as GOD loves us. Its a comparison. This proves God is relational, with three members of elohiym powers, which is a divine family kind.
There is only One God – and God expressed His love as creation – God loves His creation
You describe this as polytheism, but these are not three gods of creative power, nor can they create on their own without their consort, despite your Gnostic writings, hence why I reject your writings so. This proves you have a pantheon of three individual Gods God is the Creator in the ahl Christ is the creator in the agl And the spirit is the substrate and the womb All three Words are the one and the same word – John 1:1-3
When Jesus was on the earth, the opposing angel had to get Jesus to do one act of sin. If Jesus is of divine origin, as well as having humanity added, than Jesus had a choice to choose which powers to respond to, His own divinity or that of humanity. Humans who are humans also have two sources of power, to use our own powers of self (break away from God) or allow GOD's powers to flow through us. I will not disagree – if Jesus would have taken satan’s offer – then Jesus Christ would have been just a man like the rest of us – because all men are sinners
The opposing angel tried to get Jesus to sin, jump off the cliff he said for torah says the Father will stop you falling. But Jesus replied saying
Gosh Robert – what type of Sunday School classes do you grow up in First – satan tempted Just the man Jesuswith worldly things Then – satan tempted Christ to prove He was beyond mortal death – this is the test of the divinity But Jesus Christ told satan that test was not allowed – Jesus Christ did not even consider that test Not that He passed the test – but refused to play satan’s game YES! Satan tempted Jesus the mortal man with worldly things And No – satan’s was not allowed to temp Christ the divinity
For who can oppose God – No One
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2021 13:26:45 GMT -5
D In all of God’s creation – there is only one special creature that can choose to love God back of their own Free Will = man R What? SO in the billions of planets, trillions of worlds, nothing exists with free will except man? Not even angels?
Why not?
You limit the vast complexity of love don't you?
To me trillions of other planets have princes on them, each sinless and unfallen, these beings look similar to humans, but are not similar, they are creatures able to love God freely because they choose to. Just as angels also freely love God because they choose to.
"sons elohiym" meet with God every Sabbath, a prince from each unfallen world. See Job.
Paul Bunch says this meeting happens on earth? No. God always meets in His temple, and the earth temple was a pattern after a heavenly temple.
In previous posts you admit some angels sinned. Yes this proves they have free will, because they choose to sin. You say these angels are all chained up awaiting judgement. Not all are chained up Dave, many are free to work with the chief archon sinning angel, to help humans to sin, just as these angels also love to sin.
D How is a lie a choice for God or not If I tell Ugly Betty that she looks pretty today – does this mean I refuse to love God? When my wife asks if her ass is fat – if I do not hurt her feeling or my marriage – does this mean I do not choose God?
R Hmm? There are two ways human speak, using self powers originating from you alone (hence you are broken off having contact with God) or from a personal connection to God, waiting for God to tell you what to say to others. You would sow a Bible promises, Lord control my tongue, what do I say to them now? Everything you do and speak is relational based. Does this help answer your question?
D But – If I say I am 6 foot tall when I am only 5’10” – does this mean I hate God Please define sin again - R If you speak using Baal master powers of Self, alone without God influencing your words, that is defined as missing relationship to God, and hence a sin. Surrender to God is our hardest to overcome, we must press close to GOD and touch HIm every time we speak, so they are His words, not our words, a community based voice, not our voice alone using Baal master powers of human self. Get the idea?
D: "This proves you have a pantheon of three individual Gods R Why does it prove 'a pantheon of three individual Gods'? The Father the Son and the HS all do things as a community based flow of power,
In Hebrew marriage, the community is considered as one (echad) compound unity.
Le 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
What does this verse tell you? A simile. The HS is the same as the Father ?
When a Hebrew wife did things for her husband, it was as if the husband did those things, they are one. The same. That is what this verse is telling me. Echad, they work as one.
Just as the liver cells work as one with my brain cells, no cell is independent from each other, they work as a community. Hence why Hebrew word echad exists.
Other Hebrew words like yaccid, and ashtey, also exist meaning cardinal one, but these are NOT used to reference elohiym.
D: "I will not disagree – if Jesus would have taken satan’s offer – then Jesus Christ would have been just a man like the rest of us – because all men are sinners
Rob "The opposing angel tried to get Jesus to sin, jump off the cliff he said for torah says the Father will stop you falling. But Jesus replied saying
D "Gosh Robert – what type of Sunday School classes do you grow up in First – satan tempted Just the man Jesus with worldly things Then – satan tempted Christ to prove He was beyond mortal death – this is the test of the divinity But Jesus Christ told satan that test was not allowed – Jesus Christ did not even consider that test Not that He passed the test – but refused to play satan’s game YES! Satan tempted Jesus the mortal man with worldly things And No – satan’s was not allowed to temp Christ the divinity
For who can oppose God – No One D Some bad past in your Catholic experience is preventing you from seeing this opposing angel tried to oppose the divinity in Christ, that is the only way Jesus could have sinned, to use his divinity over his humanity inside of Him.
Some Jews say Jesus made chairs slightly imperfect and moved His hand over the mistake making it perfect as a joint. NO this would have been a sin. Jesus made perfect chairs because he was fully working with His Father's powers flowing through Him, a power based on faith, we Christians have access to as well.
I agree with you, no angel can oppose GOD telling God what to do, but nevertheless one angel did sin, making millions of other angels sin, causing a sin problem for God.
When you break in relationship you develop pride. Pride opposes GOD. That is what pride is. And hence why the Hebrew word "oppose/opposer" exists.
Humility the opposite of pride, is a love trait making you your brother's keeper. It's a community based thing... totally opposite to pride, a solitary based thing.
SHalom
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