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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 5:24:47 GMT -5
I will focus on one point Dave - your posted this
"Cherub is not a creature, it is a function – guardian messengers"
Can to explain how you can say this, when this verse says
Eze 28:15 Thou (cherub) wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
Shalom
PS when I say shalom to you it means I pray peace and good will over you, I am not your enemy but your friend. Sure we disagree over the torah, but we are discussing the torah, seeking it's truth.
You say where are the other numerous texts? How many texts define faith? Only one How many texts explain why Jesus died? Only one, and your webpage didn't discuss that. Must God explain over and over the basic concepts of salvation, if case we don't get it?
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Post by Dave on Oct 5, 2021 5:55:15 GMT -5
"Cherub is not a creature, it is a function – guardian messengers" Can to explain how you can say this, when this verse says
Eze 28:15 Thou (cherub) wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, Who was perfect before he wasn’t = ADAM Who is the guardian of earth – who was given dominion over earth = MAN
You asked why no Jew ever saw your satan in Ezk 28 Answer – because the passage is all about man – the King of Tyre 3 chapters in a row – 83 verses in a row - but Rome says two word from two different sentences is enough to make an entire new religion of satanism to control the people for Rome
You asked why no Jew ever saw your satan in Ezk 28 The answer is – Rome did not invent it yet For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God
You asked why no Jew ever saw your satan in Ezk 28 Because precept upon precept, line upon line it is not validated by the totality of scripture
You asked why no Jew ever saw your satan in Ezk 28 Because the identity of the satanas was not revealed until the Book of Revelation
John, James, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas were all Jews – that became Messianic Jews – all experts in the agl – they wrote the agl Why don’t the agl authors use Hebrew satan instead of Chaldean satanas?
Your solution = He probably didn’t mean what he said, or he wasn’t bright enough to know the difference! Why do you feel so comfortable misrepresenting others work?
PS, I am not your enemy but your friend. Do you treat all your friend with contempt?
You say where are the other numerous texts? How many texts define faith? Many – you have hid yourself away from the bulk of literature – You deliberately disrespect all those text without even reading them – just because Rome tells you to
How many texts explain why Jesus died? Many – you have hid yourself away from the bulk of literature – You deliberately disrespect all those text without even reading them – just because Rome tells you to
Must God explain over and over the basic concepts of salvation, if case we don't get it? scripture says precept upon precept, line upon line And yet you say – only one verse about faith and only one verse proving your satan You say one thing and believe another You do not say what you believe – you are just talking – and why this conversation just goes in circles
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 13:40:50 GMT -5
I will do some research on the Essenes, Dave and get back to you. Did the Essenes have a view of Satan? for example www.ancient-origins.net/history/essenes-001274816:06 not much on after life - Essenes remain immortal for ever. if soul not good, went down to some "hell" like Greek oththeius schools, Jewish with Greek influence? Video here, over 1 hour, listened to first 17 minutes of it. Hmm? The Messanic Jews in their email say this: "A fter the sin of Adam and Eve’s disobedience in the Garden of Eden, they were punished and could no longer enjoy immortal life. Mankind was now doomed to physical and spiritual death. However, God introduced another way to live forever with Him. Right in the beginning of the Bible, He gave a promise that a descendant (the seed) of Eve would crush the head of the serpent — Satan. (Genesis 3:15) And mankind sorely needed such a Messiah! It was only another three chapters later that sin had spread so far that murder and mayhem filled the land. God planned to destroy the evil in the earth with a flood. He told Noah to build an ark, which would save him, his family, and a variety of living creatures to repopulate the earth. But, of course, no one could fulfill these high standards perfectly — not Moses, not David, not even Rabbi Sha’ul, who said he was a Pharisee of Pharisees. This is why God had been preparing the people for a coming Messiah. Someone who would take them off Satan’s road to death and place them back on His road to life. Part of that preparation included a messenger: “I will send My messenger ahead of you, who will prepare Your Way — a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the Way for the Lord, make straight paths for Him.’” (Malachi 3:1; Isaiah 40:3; Mark 1:2) This preparation involved repentance!" Notice the Messanic Jewish writers write Satan as the serpent, not your Greek Satanas serpent. I asked you for a link to any Jewish writings on this term "satanas"? And how, I will get back to you, "For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God" Shalom for now
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 14:38:45 GMT -5
I found this message from an Australian Rabbi, and his words are interesting. www.oztorah.com/2009/09/the-cherubim-some-problems-and-pointers/The following article by Rabbi Raymond Apple originally appeared in booklet form, published by the Women’s Auxiliary of the Great Synagogue, Sydney, Australia, in 1995. Apple" The parallel is not exact, since here it is the cherub himself who has proved unworthy of his responsibility and must be cast out of the garden, but both passages, in Genesis and in Ezekiel, agree that cherubim have a protecting role. Rob" Alluding to the cherub , not man sinning, but a cherub sinning. Apple" The more common Jewish views see them as having human form, either a male and female in marital embrace or a male and a female child. The “marital embrace” theory takes the cherubim as symbolic of the union between God and Israel, frequently represented as it is in terms of betrothal and marriage. Rabbi Kattina is quoted in the Talmud as asserting, “Whenever Israel came up to the festival (presumably any of the three pilgrim festivals) the curtain would be removed from them and the cherubim shown to them with bodies intertwined one with another, and they would be thus addressed: ‘Look! You are beloved before God as the love between man and woman!'” (Yoma 54a).
Rob" weird, but interesting. Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels, explains that there are two of them and not one, because only God is “One” and the angels have no divinity:
Apple" If there had been only one figure of a cherub, the people would have been misled and would have mistaken it for God’s image which was to be worshipped, in the fashion of the heathen; or they might have assumed that the angel (represented by the figure) was also a deity, and would thus have adopted a dualism. By making two cherubim and distinctly declaring ‘The Lord is our God, the Lord is One’, Moses clearly proclaimed the theory of the existence of a number of angels; he left no room for the error of considering those figures as deities, since (he declared that) God is one, and that He is the Creator of the angels, who are more than one (Guide to the Perplexed, 3:45).
Rob" Apple writes the Jews see cherubim as angels. " Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels" does it all for me. I need no other quote from the Jewish Rabbi. Apple" Jewish and Christian thinking now came to see the cherubim as among God’s hosts in heaven rather than on earth. Both traditions accord them a high place in the angelic hierarchy, though opinions differ as to their exact rank. Maimonides lists ten ranks of angels, Rob" Apple writes the Jews see cherubim as angels. Apple" So this is the story of the cherubim. There are many aspects still unclear, many problems still perplexing: but I have enjoyed the investigation, and I hope readers have shared some of my enjoyment.Rob" Thanks Rabbi for your insight and comments. Dave, Jews, at least some Jews see cherubim as angels, often as guardian angels, as you pointed out, but the cherubim clearly are seen as messengers of heaven. Why than do you ignore the cherub sinned verse when Rabbi Apple says " The parallel is not exact, since here it is the cherub himself who has proved unworthy of his responsibility and must be cast out of the garden, but both passages, in Genesis and in Ezekiel, agree that cherubim have a protecting role" The Rabbi is writing of the prophet Ezekiel, of the cherub who sinned and left the presence of God. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 5, 2021 19:30:24 GMT -5
I will do some research on the Essenes, Dave and get back to you. Did the Essenes have a view of Satan? for example They had Enoch, The Book of Creation, The Book of Giants, and the War Scroll
The Messanic Jews in their email say this: "After the sin of Adam and Eve’s disobedience in the Garden of Eden, they were punished and could no longer enjoy immortal life. Mankind was now doomed to physical and spiritual death. Agree 1- man could no longer enjoy immortal life 2- mankind is doomed with 2 deaths – one physical and one spiritual
However, God introduced another way to live forever with Him. Right in the beginning of the Bible, He gave a promise that a descendant (the seed) of Eve would crush the head of the serpent — Satan. (Genesis 3:15) Yes – Gen 3:15 is a curse and a blessing
Notice the Messanic Jewish writers write Satan as the serpent, not your Greek Satanas serpent. Correct the serpent in the garden was the accuser /opposer
"For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God"
Apple" The parallel is not exact, since here it is the cherub himself who has proved unworthy of his responsibility and must be cast out of the garden, but both passages, in Genesis and in Ezekiel, agree that cherubim have a protecting role. Yep – that is what a guardian does – they have a protecting role
Rob" Alluding to the cherub , not man sinning, but a cherub sinning. Apple" The more common Jewish views see them as having human form, either a male and female in marital embrace or a male and a female child. The “marital embrace” theory takes the cherubim as symbolic of the union between God and Israel, frequently represented as it is in terms of betrothal and marriage. Rabbi Kattina is quoted in the Talmud as asserting, “Whenever Israel came up to the festival (presumably any of the three pilgrim festivals) the curtain would be removed from them and the cherubim shown to them with bodies intertwined one with another, and they would be thus addressed: ‘Look! You are beloved before God as the love between man and woman!'” (Yoma 54a). Rob" weird, but interesting. You are just sad that he didn’t validate you view – he says – well, its complicated
Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels, explains that there are two of them and not one, because only God is “One” and the angels have no divinity: Yes Robert already agreed – angels are messengers and there are guardian messengers near God’s throne
Rob" Apple writes the Jews see cherubim as angels. "Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels" does it all for me. I need no other quote from the Jewish Rabbi. Yes Robert already agreed – angels are messengers and there are guardian messengers near God’s throne
Apple" Jewish and Christian thinking now came to see the cherubim as among God’s hosts in heaven rather than on earth. Both traditions accord them a high place in the angelic hierarchy, though opinions differ as to their exact rank. Maimonides lists ten ranks of angels,
Rob" Apple writes the Jews see cherubim as angels. Yes Robert already agreed – angels are messengers and there are guardian messengers near God’s throne
Dave, Jews, at least some Jews see cherubim as angels, often as guardian angels, as you pointed out, but the cherubim clearly are seen as messengers of heaven. You just agreed that angels meant messengers – you even agreed not use the angel term again Now you say there were guardian angels but not angels from heaven Or they were guardian messengers but not messenger from God
"For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God"
Rabbi Raymond Apple … London congregations at Bayswater (1960-1965) and Hampstead (1965-1972), … Great Synagogue, Sydney, from 1972-2005, and guide and mentor to many other synagogues and organizations. Interfaith dialogue has been a lifetime interest. While in England he held the position of chairman of the youth committee of the Council of Christians and Jews, UK, and was a council member of Jews, Christians and Muslims in Europe.
"For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 14:16:26 GMT -5
D"Notice the Messanic Jewish writers write Satan as the serpent, not your Greek Satanas serpent. Correct the serpent in the garden was the accuser /opposer
"For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God" R" Did you not read my sentence?
The Messanic writers write Satan as the serpent, not Satanas as the serpent, which is what you claim, a archon demigod that is designed to oppose and accuse mankind, test the free will of the mind?
Your satan is only an angel, as a prosecutor, doing the work of God as convicting people of their sins.
You go to lots of trouble to make them two separate beings and functions.
But the Messanic writers do not write this, they write Satan as the serpent, not Satanas as the serpent.
I think you goofed. Not sure?
RP"Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels, explains that there are two of them and not one, because only God is “One” and the angels have no divinity: D" Yes Robert already agreed – angels are messengers and there are guardian messengers near God’s throne R" Again you just did not read my words, or Apple's quote of Moses Maimonides.
They are saying the cherub are angels, some cherubs are guardian angels. You tried to prevent me supporting this idea, now you agree with me.
If this is so, Rabbi Apple also suggests one cherub angel sinned, and thus we have the first creature that sinned before God was the angel cherubs. Man was the second to have sinned.
I now have two Jews who agree with me that the cherub are angels, and Rabbi Apple says one cherub sinned before God...
D""For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God" "R" so now I have to find a Jew who beleived this thousands of years ago?
Moses ben Maimon (1138–1204), commonly known as Maimonides (/maɪˈmɒnɪdiːz/ my-MON-i-deez) and also referred to by the acronym Rambam (Hebrew: רמב״ם), was a medieval Sephardic Jewish philosopher who became one of the most prolific and influential Torah scholars of the Middle Ages. Is this the same person who wrote this " Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels" Than I have my pre-Roman reference Dave? or getting close....
How strong was the Roman Catholics in 11th century?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 7, 2021 7:04:15 GMT -5
"For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God" R" Did you not read my sentence? The Messanic writers write Satan as the serpent, YES Robert – in Gen 3 satan is the opposer to Adam and Evenot Satanas as the serpent, which is what you claim, a archon demigod Gen 3 calls the serpent a creature of biology You say that your satan god is an angel – a Guardian angel You argue at length – angels CANNOT have offspring – Yet – Gen 3 speak specifically about the offspring of the serpentWhen – have I ever claimed the serpent of Gen 3 to be a Nephilim? Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you? And you wonder why I am frustrated with you – are you capable of have a real discussion – without you resorting to exaggerations and innuendos and lies to make your point?Your satan is only an angel, as a prosecutor, doing the work of God as convicting people of their sins. You go to lots of trouble to make them two separate beings and functions.But the Messanic writers do not write this, they write Satan as the serpent, not Satanas as the serpent. You are the one who has laid down the definitions Angels cannot have offspring – impossible you say – except when scripture clearly says satan’s seed You preach one thing and believe something different RP"Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels, explains that there are two of them and not one, because only God is “One” and the angels have no divinity: D" Yes Robert already agreed – angels are messengers and there are guardian messengers near God’s throne R" Again you just did not read my words, or Apple's quote of Moses Maimonides. They are saying the cherub are angels, some cherubs are guardian angels. You tried to prevent me supporting this idea, now you agree with me.I have never denied that there are guardian messengers – NEVER! I disagree that the King of Tyre was an angel – he was just a manSometimes guardians are not angels – sometimes guardians are men You tried to prevent me supporting this idea, - D"Cherub – does not mean an angel – it can mean many things – a guardian R" Well that's your opinion, my opinion is the cherub is an angel, "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbahhttps://www.jstor.org › stable by D Arbel · 2005 · Cited by 14 — Tradition to Commentary: Torah and Its Interpretation in the Midrash Sifre ... "Ezekiel 28: The Fall of Adam," in Literature on Adam Questions about Eve's Iniquity, Beauty, and Fall: The "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbah" Traditions of Eve www.thetorah.com/article/the-cherubim-their-role-on-the-ark-in-the-holy-of-holiesDr. RabbiZev Farber - The Cherubim: Their Role on the Ark in the Holy of Holies The most intriguing and surprising aspect of the Ark, and possibly the whole Mishkan, are the Cherubs on the Ark’s cover. What are cherubs? The Torah describes them in detail in Exodus 25: Tradition has interpreted the Cherubs to represent anything from a child to a man, woman to an angel, from a bird to a Torah scholar. Ancient Near Eastern evidence answers this uncertainty, or at least tells us what the Cherubim originally meant. What is a Cherub?1 Adam Clark - What these were we cannot distinctly say. 2 Adam Clark - The cherubim. Hebrew plurals in the masculine end in general in im: to add an s to this when we introduce such words into English, is very improper; therefore the word should be written cherubim, not cherubims. But what were these? They are utterly unknown. Conjectures and guesses relative to their nature and properties are endless. 3 Mathew Henry - Anointed kings should be to their subjects as anointed cherubim, that cover them with the wings of their power; 4 craigkeener – those who apply the text to the devil declare that it also applies to him, because (they claim) some features of the text cannot apply to anyone but the devil. This argument, as we shall see, is not actually accurate. 5 craigkeener - Ezekiel refers to an arrogant human ruler. 6 craigkeener - even if these two passages referred to the devil as well as to earthly rulers—though in context they do not—why do defenders of this view often apply these passages to the devil yet never apply them also to earthly rulers judged by God for their arrogance? 7 craigkeener - I suspect that many believers simply assume these passages refer to the devil because that is the way we have always heard them interpreted, but many of us never closely examined them in context. Why doesn’t every Christian Commentary support the SDA Robert view?No pre-Roman Jew supports the Robert’s view No Messianic Jew supports Robert’s view No Gnostic Christian support Robert’s view Many – Christian Commentaries do not support Robert’s view Not all types of Christians support Robert’s viewI belong to this groupYes – there is a sub-set within Christianity that do believe in cherub chata That would be those closest to Rome and the Roman doctrine of Fallen Angels – Roman Catholics, Reformed Baptist, and SDA Scripture says – who can oppose God – no oneBut the doctrine of fallen angels is built upon satan opposing God Robert and the SDA make satan into a god - and preach a 4 god pantheon - 3 gods agianist the one god of evil - locked in an eternal battel / struggel - they call it the Great Controversy - absolutley an insult to Christianity and scripture! - an etrirely different religion with different gods than the Jews or the Christians Cherub means the function of a - "guardian" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of Go's throne are gaurdian angels The Cherub at the gate to Eden - were Guardians of the Gate A King - of Tyre or anywhere - is the guardian of his people If Mom and Dad die - grandpa can become a guardian Your word game of absolutes is just a game you playI say guardian - you say angel I say Beast - you say Hebrew satan I say the verb means to make or establish / ordain - you say it means satan rules every man Scripture says 2 deaths - you are confused what this means Scripture says spirit and spiritual - you mock a 'Light Bulb Moment' Either - you are a student - who learns Or you are just preaching a doctrine pushing an agenda in service to your "my way only church" that divides and pollutes Christianity. I would rather be a member of the "Church that is the Bride of Christ" and the only agenda = Jer 1:5Just as it was for the Jew Just as it was for the Messianic Jew Just as it was for the First Christians The need to fight amoungst ourselves - to split Christianity into 2500 registered different "one way churches" - Oh - and the anti-Chtist = Rome Is a distraction - a miss-direction - a pollution/dilution of the the GospelAll the while - as Western Roman Christendom implodes. Scripture is alive and well - unfolding on the nightly news right before our eyes But Robert denies that as well - Israel has nothing to do with tha agl or the end times Ellen White says so - denies 1948 Israel has anything to do with scriptureAll very Christian Robert! All very scriptural! NOT!If this is so, Rabbi Apple also suggests one cherub angel sinned, This how you want it to be – to prove that your god satan is really a god – but he is not You spend all your time focused upon the wrong godThe Messanic writers write Satan as the serpent, YES Robert – in Gen 3 satan is the opposer to Adam and EveD""For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God""R" so now I have to find a Jew who beleived this thousands of years ago?"For two years you have failed to give me one pre-Roman reference about your satan God"How strong was the Roman Catholics in 11th century?You are a true student of Christianity – so I am sure you are very acquainted with church historyThe Love of Jesus Christ made real upon this planet by the Roman Catholic Church The Archon and the Great Contest – pgs 71-74 Before the Emperor Constantine endorsed Christianity different Christian leaders and their followers came under Rome’s scrutiny. As Jonathan Wright says, in his book about heretics, “It was an age of persecution: not quite so swingeing and not quite as ceaseless as is often imagined, but an age of persecution nonetheless. It was clear that Rome detested Christianity and, while it couldn’t really help the fact, this was largely Christianity’s own fault. If you erect a religion that characterizes all other faiths as false, and if some of your brethren refuse to make any compromises with the religious world around them, you are behaving very bravely. You can also expect baleful consequences.”3
We forget that Rome’s adoption of the Christian faith spelled the end for pagan religions within the Empire. In 386 AD, a man named Libanius, who was devastated by the post-Nicaean systematic destruction of the old faiths, pleaded with the emperor to rein in the excesses of Christian officials. They “hasten to attack the temples with sticks and stones and bars of iron, and in some cases, disdaining these, with hands and feet. Then utter desolation follows, with the stripping of roofs, demolition of walls, the tearing down of statues and the overthrow of altars, and the priest must either keep quite or die. After demolishing one, they scurry to another, and to a third, and trophy is piled on trophy.”4
Many would come to resent this new Roman Christian world: a place in which coercion was acceptable and in which religious faith and political power were so closely intertwined. Coercion in any form is always counterproductive: it produces a congregation of hypocrites who pretended to believe in the prevailing religion in order to avoid ostracism or punishment. As such, the state could never become directly involved in the policing of belief because the focus of a true religion is the inward full persuasion (of the mind). The care of souls cannot be given to the civil magistrate because his power consist only in a corporeal force; but salvation through religion consist in the inward conversion of the mind.5 When Pope Adrian died in 795 AD, the papal treasurer, the keeper of the wardrobe, was elected as his successor. Pope Leo III took the issue of papal authority and finance to a whole new level. Whether he was consumed with the arrogance of papal infallibility, or just plan greedy is a question for history. In any case, he thought that he, the Pope, was better qualified to rule the populations of the world than the kings of the various nations. He also thought that taxes should go directly to the Vatican. His first move was to praise King Charlemagne as the protector of the Christian faith, which added to Pope Leo’s immediate wealth. Also, by stoking the King in the eyes of the Christian population Pope Leo gained favor by Charlemagne. He then instituted decrees that were designed to tax the population at large. As a result he was hated by the elite of Rome and almost killed by a mob, but he escaped bloodied and ran to Charlemagne for help and protection. 6 Charlemagne escorted Pope Leo back to Rome in safety. While there Charlemagne went to the Christmas mass at the Vatican, as a good Christian King and protector of the faith should. However, to his surprise, in front of the masses crowding the Vatican hall, Pope Leo placed a crown upon Charlemagne and declared him to be the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.7 This was such a clever move by Pope Leo. In the eyes of the general population just who has the greater authority, the one being crowned or the one doing the crowning? It appears as if the position of Pope is the higher authority bestowing such a great honor upon the King. A tradition that continued to carry throughout most of the future Kings of Europe. Chosen by the court, or people, but empowered and legitimized by the church, a tradition that continues into our modern age. As if the Council of Nicaea wasn’t enough, for the second time in history there is a close marriage between the Church and State elevating the Church’s ultimate power. By 1095, Pope Urban II had 37,000 combat troops marching off in the First Crusade to liberate the Holy Lands in the holy cause of Christianity. This might have been a good idea on paper, but in the name of Christianity it resulted in the wholesale slaughter of millions of Muslim and Jewish men, women, and children. Pope Innocent III sponsored the Fourth crusade, in 1200, but no one had the funds to support the crusaders on their mission. In need of money and supplies, they became a mercenary army for the city of Venice against the city of Zara. Pope Innocent was so furious about this that he excommunicated all the crusaders from the Church. Without papal support and provision to return home, these crusaders wandered over to Constantinople, where ended up sacking the city for personal supplies and private loot, and all done in the name of Christianity. In fact, “By the last Crusade, many in Europe had come to see the Pope as just another war-mongering king, not the guardian of souls who stands before heaven's gate” 8 (Albigensian Crusade 1209 killed the last remaining Messianic Jews of France)During the reign of Pope Alexander VI, 1492-1503, clean living pious priest were a very small minority indeed. The great majority kept mistresses and indulged in every sort of vice. On one occasion, for his guest’ amusement, the Borgia Pope engaged one hundred of Rome’s most beautiful prostitutes, had them strip naked in his ballroom and copulate with his men-in-arms. He offered valuable prizes for the couples who performed in the most lascivious positions, while his daughter, Lucretia, and other ladies from his court looked on and applauded.9 John Colet, dean of St Paul’s Cathedral in London complained in 1512 that, “Priest were now men of the world, carnal not spiritual, and defined by covetousness: ‘All things in the church are either the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, or the pride of life.’ Just look at the endless competition to secure bigger and better clerical jobs: ‘a breathless race from one benefice to benefice.’ Just look at all the ‘feasting and banqueting … vain babbling … hunting and hawking’ to which priest were addicted: they are drowned in the delights of the world.” … If “the priest and bishops, the very lights, are in the dark ways of the world, how dark must the lay people be?”10 One French theologian, Sebastian Castellio, 1515-1563, prayed openly, O Christ, “I beg you in the name of your father, do you now command that those who do not understand your precepts be drowned in water, cut with lashes to the entrails, dismembered by the sword, or burned at a slow fire?” While his congregation Pondered, if Christ really approved of these things being done in His name; he continued to pray aloud. Concluding with, “O blasphemous and shameful audacity of men, who dare to attribute to Christ that which they do by the command and the instigation of Satan.”11 Moses ben Maimon (1138–1204 - I have my pre-Roman reference Dave? or getting close....Getting close – only 1200 years to late
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 15:19:13 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, this post has taken many hours to compile and many days of research:- D" Gen 3 calls the serpent a creature of biology You say that your satan god is an angel – a Guardian angel You argue at length – angels CANNOT have offspring – Yet – Gen 3 speak specifically about the offspring of the serpent YES Robert – in Gen 3 satan is the opposer to Adam and EveR" Wow, so much agreement. Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Isn't this talking about the seed of sin, rather than the biological nature of the serpent to sexually impart seeds of sin to future offspring, thus create a genetic hybrid, which in my view is impossible to achieve? In order to cause mischief within the compassion centre of the HS, the mischief maker only has to interfere with the development of the humans inside this compasssion centre. Interfere? How so? Epi-genetics. This is one example. A parent doing evil, inherits evil unto the next seed. You have assumed to only way is by shape shifting and making a biological hybrid, ie demigod, half cherub half human, you call an archon. ---------------------from Messanic emailed writings: ---------------- " Last week in Parasha Bereisheet, Adam and Chava (Eve) were exiled from the Garden of Eden because of sin. They became fruitful and multiplied, as God intended, but sin manifested in their son Cain when he murdered his brother Abel. Tragically, Cain did not take the opportunity God gave him to repent (change his thinking and behavior to follow God). Murder manifested five generations later in his descendant Lamech, who also refused to repent" Rob sees this are Cain's line becoming opposite to Seth's line. If we assume the "sons of God" are supporters of faith in God, than Seth's line matches this idea, as do all contexts of the term "sons of God". Thus the Son of Cain, represent the evil and wayward children of God. Genesis 6 talks about the mixing of these human lines, until only Noah is the one straight one left. " The faith of Noach is something of a parallel with our own walk with God and entrance to the "New Jerusalem." It is by faith that we inherit the promises, not good deeds, though good deeds and obedience are essential hallmarks of a living faith. After all, Noach did not establish his faith only with words; he demonstrated it with faithful obedience. “But someone will say, ‘You have faith; I have deeds.’ Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.” (James 2:18)" Rob notes" I love the way the Messanic writers write about faith, paralleling it to Noah. ------------------------------------------- You say the serpent is an Opposer to humanity. Nice idea. However you restrict the opposition only to humans, not opposing God. You say, this satan is also a prosecutor, but no prosecutor function is here, only that of getting the humans to sin and disobey God, isn't this a conflict of interest? Your prosecutor idea is totally wrong than. ------------------------------ D" Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you?R" Oh sorry. So the prosecuting angel here as the serpent, is opposing humans, and getting them to sin, is this not a conflict of interest? This angel is also a cherub, getting humans to sin. And this cherub is not a Nephilim. I agree. Correct. In fact if a cherub is trying to get humans to sin, is because the cherub is used to sinning himself. But you don't like this idea. You seem to think the cherubims are just robotic machines programmed to love God back. By definition such a response is not love at all, and makes God into a tyrant. How much you belittle God with your programmed ideas of God, and creatures God creates, especially the cherub who is created as a creature closest to God. The Bible tells us the cherub were the first creatures to have sinned. But again you dismiss this idea, and even though Rabbi Apple notes the verse, the Jewish culture does not make applications of this verse at all. I wonder why? ---------------------------- D" I have never denied that there are guardian messengers – NEVER! I disagree that the King of Tyre was an angel – he was just a manR" Great. KIng Tyre was never a cherub, he was just a man. I agree with you Great the cherub can be guardian cherub, the cherub can be cherub messengers too. We both agree finally.D" Why doesn’t every Christian Commentary support the SDA Robert view? No pre-Roman Jew supports the Robert’s view No Messianic Jew supports Robert’s view No Gnostic Christian support Robert’s view Many – Christian Commentaries do not support Robert’s view Not all types of Christians support Robert’s view I belong to this groupR" What are you saying Dave? Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels, Therefore some Jews see cherubims as angels. Rabbi Apple notes the cherub sinned before God. Therefore some Jews agree with my view. How many must follow God and God's view? Of the 3 million saved in the Exodus, only 2 walked into the promised land. There only some Jews were saved. The rest face a lake of fire of non-existence. D" The need to fight amoungst ourselves - R" do we agree like Moses Maimonides, like Rabbi Apple? or don't we, Dave? Cheribum are angels, some do "shamar" some do "malak", but all cherubs are angels. Some Jews agree with Robert's view. Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (example 2,999,998 - though some saved not reaching the promised land, like Moses, due to his one sin) 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (example just 2 Joshua and Caleb) Some humans follow Robert's view, which Rabbi Apple alluded to:- Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself.... Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness.... Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. 20 The Desire of Ages, 21, 22. bibleanswers.study/covering-cherubim-at-gods-throne-who-are-theyConservative view of cherubim. we simply don't much much about them? How convenient. answersingenesis.org/sin/original-sin/who-sinned-first-adam-or-satan/Nice explanation of the deception. God says: Don’t eat or you will begin to die. Eve says: We can’t eat or we will die immediately. Serpent says: You will not begin to die?Thus the serpent deceived Eve, and deception is itself, making a false witness, thus the serpent cherub lied against GOD by becoming a false witness to God and to his creatures such as Eve. www.christianity.com/wiki/sin/did-evil-exist-before-adam-and-eve-sinned.htmlHope Bolinger is an editor at Salem, a multi-published novelist, and a graduate of Taylor University's professional writing program. She supports my view Dave. oldearthcreationism.wordpress.com/2018/02/06/what-if-adam-and-eve-had-not-sinned/Interesting, what if Adam had not sinned? Hmm? Very few webpages on the theme " cherub sinned"... on the Internet. --------------------------- D" Scripture says – who can oppose God www.holyspiritspeaks.org/all-who-do-not-know-god-are-those-who-oppose-god-2/R" People who sin, oppose GOD. Cherubs who sin, also oppose GOD. www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmWebpages like these, obviously Jewish falsehoods are terrible views on the torah Yehuda Shurpin " only man has been given free choice to choose either one. An angel, on other hand, has no evil inclination and therefore no free choice. This would seem to mean that an angel is something like a robot, which cannot rebel or sin." "Even the oft-cited example of the Satan as a rogue angel is a gross misunderstanding. Satan is merely the name of an angel whose divinely assigned task is to seduce people towards sin. This angel is also the prosecutor who levels charges in front of the heavenly court against those who succumb to his crafty seductions. The word satan simply means prosecutor in Hebrew. If the Heavenly court decides that it is time for someone to die, then the Satan is the one sent down to take his life. In fact, the Talmud tells us that "Satan, the urge to do evil, and the Angel of Death are all one."2 All these titles are simply multiple job descriptions for one angel. An angel fulfilling its divine duty is hardly in conflict with its own Creator.3" Rob" Hebrew word "satan" means "prosecutor" . Absolutely not. Angel of Death = "angel sent by GOD to destroy things" ? 1Ch 21:1 Are Prosecutors allowed to cause humans to sin? Is this a prosecutor's function? No , I would call this a conflict of interest. Prosecutors prosecute, they are not allowed to get you sin, and than prosecute you for that sin. Nu 22:22 wrong context. A Prosecutor cannot block access to a person on a road, hence the wrong meaning of the Hebrew word. Ps 109:29 How can a Prosecutor be clothed with shame, if it's working for the Lord. Wrong meaning of word. Zec 3:1 The Prosecutor standing on the right hand of Joshua to prosecute Joshua for his sins? Isn't this context the Day of Atonement, the conclusion of the the salvation process, not the beginning of salvation, since when does GOD require a prosecutor in the salvation process? Wrong meaning of the word. Ps 38:20 Since when do prosecutors term evil as good? Wrong meaning the Hebrew word. " Angel of Death " no such theme in Hebrew torah, Please supply me the Bible texts? Destroyer Angel asked to slay soldiers Nothing on the "angel of death" These webpage writers make up stuff, and twist Hebrew word meanings. Yehuda Shurpin" All this, however, is seemingly contradicted by the verse in Job which states: Can a mortal be more righteous than God, or can a man be purer than his Maker? Behold, He does not trust His servants and He casts reproach upon His angels.4
And we say in the liturgy of Yom Kippur: The angels are dismayed, they are seized by fear and trembling as they proclaim: Behold the Day of Judgment! For all the hosts of heaven are brought for judgment. They shall not be guiltless in Your eyes. Both of these quotes clearly imply that in spite of what we have said, angels do somehow manage to sin even without having an evil inclination, and are judged on Yom Kippur." Rob" This folly is just as bad, does the writer imply angels sin or not? Yehuda Shurpin " Furthermore, we find various instances in the Midrash and Talmud of angels being punished. A punishment implies that one had a choice in the matter.
Rob" How can Jews sway between two opinions? Do angels sin or not? Simple enough question. ------------------------------------ D "Robert and the SDA make satan into a god - and preach a 4 god pantheon - 3 gods agianist the one god of evil - locked in an eternal battel / struggel - they call it the Great Controversy - absolutley an insult to Christianity and scripture! - an etrirely different religion with different gods than the Jews or the Christians
R" Dave and the Gnostic Christian view is a god who cannot create all things perfect, and created a flawed world on purpose, so the sinless humans are tempted to sin, so their free will minds are tested if they can truly love God or not? Free will minds require testing. Your God both loves and hates, can kill or give life, is the sustainer of all things, including sin. Our worldly battle is simply with creatures God ordained to tempt man, to keep man from the salvation by God, so our free will is truly develped, from the salvation GOD wants for man. The prodigal returns to God, after being tempted "by God" to leave God. I will correct Dave's post of my view a little Robert and the SDA make satan into the origin of sin, and so opposes the family of god, who in love give up their independent functions to function as one source of elohiym power, thus divinity enters into conflict over creatures of free will, who sin. This conflict over the first angels who sin, and over the humans these angels cause also to sin, the Great Controversy. The free will of all creatures are examined, both angels and humans, by God who sends His son that whosoever supports His SON, has eternal life and is spared the condemnation GOD has for those who decide continually sin, and live without God's power in their lives. Dave has one God who has three expressions of the same God. How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God? Why does one expression need to pray to another expression? Why does the one expression seem feminine and another expression seem masculine, no need for this different of personality is the two expressions are cognitively the same being. It such a thing is possible, than one can truly one one's self, and thus the gender male can become his own gender female, and both a provider for his own love and a responder to his own love, there is no need for a help mate. Does Scripture align to this idea? Man can love his own shadow, his own expressions and project different expressions of himself? The homosexual view of fluid gender stems from this view. Another view. Consider the cells of the heart, the cells of the brain and the cells of the kidneys. Each cell has the information of all the cells and a truly independent of each other, yet these cells give up some aspects of freedom to work together in a community as echad. One. In doing this compound unity, have any of the cells lost anything, or do they gain by working as a machine, rather than single components? We have one body of DNA but separate and distinct personalities of love, in the Adam and Eve clone. They are identical in DNA, yet different in their styles of loving. Do the couples gain more by working as a team, or by living entirely and independently alone? In the concept of marriage with Adam and Eve, how many personalities were there? Two How many persons were there ? One. Le 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. ------------------ D" researches " Many would come to resent this new Roman Christian world: a place in which coercion was acceptable and in which religious faith and political power were so closely intertwined. Coercion in any form is always counterproductive: it produces a congregation of hypocrites who pretended to believe in the prevailing religion in order to avoid ostracism or punishment. As such, the state could never become directly involved in the policing of belief because the focus of a true religion is the inward full persuasion (of the mind). The care of souls cannot be given to the civil magistrate because his power consist only in a corporeal force; but salvation through religion consist in the inward conversion of the mind.5R: Well saidNotice the rise against Australian freedom www.youtube.com/watch?v=09maaUaRT4MWatch this 23 minute video A flood of negative emotions, using advanced technology is causing Australia to become lost We have to stop, cut ourselves from too much technology, get back to the basics of human joys and love Build parallel structures, show the unvaccinated can live a life of freedom without excessive rules. Similar to the same religious totalitarianism happening to Australia right now. D" As if the Council of Nicaea wasn’t enough, for the second time in history there is a close marriage between the Church and State elevating the Church’s ultimate powerR" Nice Yes the religious totalitarianism happened once before... D" Borgia Pope engaged one hundred of Rome’s most beautiful prostitutes,R" Makes you sick of religion doesn't it? RP" Moses ben Maimon (1138–1204 - I have my pre-Roman reference Dave? or getting close.... D" Getting close – only 1200 years to lateR" smile Enjoy your day my friend, make America great again, fight for our freedoms to make discussions like this, one day they may round us up as witches in a witch hunt, just because we want to live simple and happy lives. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 9, 2021 23:09:47 GMT -5
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Isn't this talking about the seed of sin, rather than the biological nature of the serpent You posted a Messanic Jewish document discussing the proper way to study scripture 1- Scripture says what it means – means what it says 2- There is a deeper meaning 3- and deeper still You demand that scripture always means something else – you call it the Robert methodYou say the serpent is an Opposer to humanity. Nice idea. However you restrict the opposition only to humans, not opposing God.Gen 3:14 God cursed the serpent Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Where does it say the contest is between your satan and God?You say the serpent is an Opposer to humanity. Nice idea. However you restrict the opposition only to humans, not opposing God.Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? God does what he doesJob 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. Job 23:13 He is unchangeable, and who can change Him? Whatever His soul desires, He does. Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. Psa 135:6 Whatever Adonai pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. Psa 135:6 Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps; God does what he does – no one can alter God’s Will or God’s PlanYou say, this satan is also a prosecutor, but no prosecutor function is here, only that of getting the humans to sin and disobey God, isn't this a conflict of interest? Your prosecutor idea is totally wrong than. D"Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you?R" Oh sorry. So the prosecuting angel here as the serpent, is opposing humans, and getting them to sin, is this not a conflict of interest? This angel is also a cherub, getting humans to sin. D"Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you?I seek and honest conversation without you with you misrepresenting me, scripture, and others to make your doctrine come true. In fact if a cherub is trying to get humans to sin, is because the cherub is used to sinning himself. All you have is one assumption – built upon another assumption I seek and honest conversation without you with you misrepresenting me, scripture, and others to make your doctrine come true. But you don't like this idea. You seem to think the cherubims are just robotic machines programmed to love God back. www.aish.com/atr/Angels.htmlAngels are defined as metaphysical beings who are messengers of God. They are spiritual, but they have no free will. They can only do exactly what they have been commanded to do by their Creator. www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmIn other words, only man has been endowed with the inclination for both good and bad. And only man has been given free choice to choose either one. An angel, on other hand, has no evil inclination and therefore no free choice. This would seem to mean that an angel is something like a robot, which cannot rebel or sin. www.myjewishlearning.com/article/angels/Angels in Early Rabbinic Literature Rabbinic literature expounds significantly on the nature of angels and their roles in biblical stories. The Midrash identifies Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael as the four chief angels who surround the divine throne, each of whom has particular attributes. The Talmud identifies Michael, Gabriel and Raphael as the three angels who visited Abraham to deliver the news that his wife will bear a son. Though the Bible records that the men ate a meal that Abraham had prepared for them, the rabbis stipulate that the trio only appeared to eat — since, being angels, they are not physical beings, but merely resemble them. Maimonides’ Angelic Hierarchy Maimonides, the 12th-century scholar, devotes a section of his Mishneh Torah to the nature of angels. They are incorporeal beings, he writes, possessing form but no substance. Descriptions of angels as winged or made of fire, Maimonides says, are merely “enigmatical” prophetic visions — that is, inevitably inadequate attempts to describe the formless and the spiritual within the confines of human language. Maimonides describes a 10-level hierarchy of angels, with different types such as holy creatures (chayot hakodesh) flying serpents and chariot bearers. All of these forms are alive and know God intimately, Maimonides writes, but while they all know God more deeply than human beings do, even the highest among them, knowing more than all those below, cannot know the full truth of God. They are incorporeal beings, he writes, possessing form but no substance since, being angels, they are not physical beings, but merely resemble themRobert disagrees – he claims they are biology and have free will Robert say – no such thing as a spirit body
You seem to think the cherubims are just robotic machines programmed to love God back.It is Jewish theology – Jesus did not come to rewrite the past – Mat 5:17-20Rome is the one that wants to rewrite scripture – The doctrine of satan and his Fallen Angels did not exist until Rome invented itBy definition such a response is not love at all, and makes God into a tyrant. Your respect for God and His absolute sovereignty is notedThe Bible tells us the cherub were the first creatures to have sinned.Only if you make assumption and play a word game I will just stick to Judaism and scripture---------------------------- R" What are you saying Dave? Moses Maimonides, who sees the cherubim as representing angels, Therefore some Jews see cherubims as angels.YES Robert – there are guardian messengers in heaven – already agreed D"Why doesn’t every Christian Commentary support the SDA Robert view? No pre-Roman Jew supports the Robert’s view No Messianic Jew supports Robert’s view No Gnostic Christian support Robert’s view Many – Christian Commentaries do not support Robert’s view Not all types of Christians support Robert’s view I belong to this group Rabbi Apple notes the cherub sinned before God.Is Rabbi Apple a pre-Roman source Robert – you cannot use Roman edit to prove Roman edit Can we stop all this man-made doctrine of yours ang get back to the ahl and agl Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- I accept scriptureR" Dave and the Gnostic Christian view is a god who cannot create all things perfect, and created a flawed world on purpose, so the sinless humans are tempted to sin, so their free will minds are tested if they can truly love God or not? Robert calls Intelligent Design – the proof that only God could have dine it - is a flawed world – The delicate of balance in nature should cause us praise – Robert says God world is flawed Psa 19:2 + Rom 1:19-20 = satan’s handiwork – not God’s according to RobertFree will minds require testing. Your God both loves and hates, can kill or give life, is the sustainer of all things, including sin. including sin. – are you sure you just are making your argument an impossible extreme Scriptures clearly says – God test man to see if we will truly keep his Mitzvah or notI do not deny scriptureOur worldly battle is simply with creatures God ordained to tempt man, D"Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you? I seek and honest conversation without you with you misrepresenting me, scripture, and others to make your doctrine come true. Dave has one God who has three expressions of the same God. How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God? YES ABSOLUTELY – There is only ONE TRUE GODExo 33 – no one can see the face of God ( E ) – but we can experience His Glory /Spirit (c2) – and we can see his image/back (m) God the singularity is beyond our comprehension / understanding But man can experience His spirit – which is Holey = HS / Shekinah / Comforter And man is able to experience / see God incarnate / the image of God = Christ Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, Heb 1:3 This Son is the radiance of His glory and the imprint of His being, Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.” Joh 14:9 Yeshua said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and you haven’t come to know Me, Christ = God / God = ChristWhy does one expression need to pray to another expression? To complete the Gospel – to explain the Gospel – in as many ways as possible to prove - What – Mar 14:36 And He was saying, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You! Take this cup from Me! Yet not what I will, but what You will.” Mat 26:42 Again for a second time He went away and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, let Your will be done.” Luk 22:42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” You talk of your satan killing Christ – and the Jews killing Christ and even Rome killing ChristIt was God’s Will / God’s PlanJoh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Given away – a gift - God’s Will / God’s Planhow does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God? Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, Mat 6:4 so that your tzedakah may be in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, shall reward you. The Right Hand is the hand of instruction and salvation - the hand of tzedakah The Left Hand is the hand of mystery But you claim this is a Jewish concept - therefore you refuse to undertand - because you don't want to understand - too complicated you say Why does the one expression seem feminine and another expression seem masculine, no need for this Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness! Why do you deny scriptureAnother view. Consider the cells of the heart, the cells of the brain and the cells of the We have one body of DNA but separate and distinct personalities of love, All Robert believes in biology and this WORLD of flesh D" As if the Council of Nicaea wasn’t enough, for the second time in history there is a close marriage between the Church and State elevating the Church’s ultimate power R" Nice Yes the religious totalitarianism happened once before...You admitted that you never heard of – or studied anything about the Council of Nicaea You didn’t know or understand why it was called – or the issues decided
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2021 16:46:32 GMT -5
D" Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Where does it say the contest is between your satan and God?R" Write the pronouns out Dave to avoid confusion for readers to read. Gen 3:15 and Jesus/GOD will put enmity between Satan/Serpent and the woman, and between Satan/Serpent 's seed and woman' seed: Jesus/GOD shall bruise Satan/Serpent , and thou shalt bruise his heel youtu.be/SHKSzvsa6XgAfter watching Jeff's video, why does GOD put enmity between Satan and the Humans? ---------------------- D" Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you?R" OH so now you refuse to comment upon my comments? Is the serpent, a prosecutor sent by God to tempt humans to develop free will? Y/N Did the prosecutor tempt the humans the sin Dave? Y/N In fact developing man's free will is silly? How can God develop man's free will unless man sins? Therefore testing the free will of man, is essentially wrong in itself, this is an evil to begin with. SO your god is evil to want to test man's free will, with a creature designed to test man's free will? You cannot test the free will unless mankind sins, thus experiencing what it means not to have GOD with you. ---------------------- RP" You seem to think the cherubims are just robotic machines programmed to love God back.D" It is Jewish theology – Jesus did not come to rewrite the past – Mat 5:17-20 Rome is the one that wants to rewrite scripture – The doctrine of satan and his Fallen Angels did not exist until Rome invented itR" I see. OK let's try another doctrine in the Hebrew, that ROME doesn't know about. GMO. DO the Jews understand this verse as GMO of humans Dave? DO the Catholics have any edit of this verse? H 3610 "kilayim" DO Jews understand this term to mean GMO of humans? I used to think the verse meant Hybridization of plants, animals and humans. But since technology has grown, I now know the verse refers to GMO of of plants, animals and humans. Here is a Hebrew word, I am sure is not invented with meaning by either Jews or Catholics, only by Robert in recent times, is my prediction to you Dave. Prove me wrong. God puts Hebrew in the Bible for times like us, to find and dig out, not Jewish and not Catholic. Just like Gerald Schroeder did on the Hebrew " yom echad" God puts Hebrew in the Bible for times like us, as gemstones, to find and dig out, not Jewish and not Catholic. Did the Jews write about " yom echad" before the Einstein theory of relativity? Or did the Catholic? Well Schroeder discovered this? Or did Jews before him? You seem to think Jews wrote the Hebrew? Hmm? I thought God did using Jews hands. Therefore there are gemstones of stuff not known by Jews or Catholics. R" " The Bible tells us the cherub were the first creatures to have sinned.D" Only if you make assumption and play a word game I will just stick to Judaism and scriptureR" So now you choose to ignore Rabbi Moses Maimonedes and Rabbi Raymond Apple now? Prove me wrong that H 3610 "kilayim" refers to the GMO of God's creation? Does Judaism talk of this? spiritualsprings.org/ss-1126.htm My paper on GMO. with 15 www references too. D" Is Rabbi Apple a pre-Roman source Robert – you cannot use Roman edit to prove Roman edit Can we stop all this man-made doctrine of yours ang get back to the ahl and aglR" OK, prove to me the meaning of H 3610 "kilayim" refers to the GMO of God's creation? That pre flood humans were doing GMO of humans. creating humanoids too? nothing to do with cherubs having physical sex with humans, only the idea of seeding more evil and ra into man's mind. I am sure the Jew and the Catholic do not comment on GMO, arising from H 3610 "kilayim" referring to the GMO of God's creation? Only two Bible texts, so is an easy study to read. Literally seems to refer to mixing DNA kinds, like hybrids, but no, the literally shooting DNA into the DNA of other species with a gene gun. D" The delicate of balance in nature should cause us praise – Robert says God world is flawedR" The idea of natural death, decomposing animals and flesh eating sharks, all before Adam sinned, is a perfect example of God's perfect Creation. How odd. D" Scriptures clearly says – God test man to see if we will truly keep his Mitzvah or notR" SO free will is not tested unless free will chooses to disobey. For example Mummy says do not touch the hot stove baby. But baby only knows the Mitzvah, so later when Mummy is looking the baby touches the hot stove and is painfully burnt. Question: Does the baby have free will developed now? Does testing the will to sin, develop free will? Or shoudl the baby have listened in the first place? DO boundaries require testing? Does the bird struggle to fly to the moon? Or does the bird fly in the boundaries of love it has? Free will Dave never requires testing. Your notion of this idea is odd and silly. If a cherub sinned already before man sinned, than yes the idea of testing makes sense, because man was placed in the world with sinning cherubs, and with TWO trees of choice. But you ignore the TWO trees of choice, and focus on one tree, that required man to sin so free will could be developed. How blind you are to Scripture plainly before you. D"D" Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would youR" I have listened to your talk for a long time Dave. I try not to misquote you. You misquote me all the time. You say I do not have a soul, You say I do not have a spirit. You misquote me all the time. " Our worldly battle is simply with creatures God ordained to tempt man", This is a fair assessment of your theory Dave. You say GOD created the archons to test man's free will. This means GOD intentionally created archons, which suddenly thought of self, and thus do bad, but not sin, because archons are programmed machines to test/tempt man to sin, only man can sin. The archon cannot sin because the archon has no free will. Only man does. You agree cherubs can sin. But angels can't sin. They are programmed to praise only. Only man can sin because only man has free will. RP" Dave has one God who has three expressions of the same God. How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God?D" YES ABSOLUTELY – There is only ONE TRUE GODR" SO can't you comment upon my logic? R"How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God? D" Dave makes no answer. Dave don't know. Sure my left foot rises off the nail I trod on without my mind knowing, but hey creating archons is a little different than treading on a nail, it requires talking with the mouth of GOD, not the left or right hand. Creation was spoken into existence, hence with one head, not the left or right hand. Dave your theories make not sense. God was fully aware of His creating creation. Dave dribbles on with 10 sentences, nice Bible quotes ( see I write compliments about you too) but Dave, you did not answer my question? What was my question to you? R"How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God? RP " Why does one expression need to pray to another expression?D" To complete the Gospel – to explain the Gospel – in as many ways as possible to prove - What – R" Again you are not answering my question. How can one mouth speak to the ears the same head? SO the mouth speaks to the ears, and you say to complete the Gospel? The hebrew word amanuah, requires TWO intelligent beings Dave, one supports the other. That is two mouths that speak of the same words, both mouths are using the same words, the words that come with divine power. That is what amanuah means, but you have not studied this word with me, another word game you say. How many webpages/ websites/ Christians understand amanuah? faith ? Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: Imrah personified eloah, is the Hebrew in this verse. D" Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Given away – a gift - God’s Will / God’s PlanR" You quote a verse you do not understand even. Joh 3:16 “For Divine Family POWER so loved the world that ELOAH FATHER gave His one and only YASHA SON, that whoever AMANUAH in SON-YHWH shall not perish but have eternal life. The verse does not say: Joh 3:16 “For ELOAH-FATHER so loved the world that ELOAH FATHER gave His one and only ELOAH FATHER , that whoever AMANUAH in ELOAH FATHER shall not perish but have eternal life How can ELOAH FATHER give ELOAH FATHER ? Give something that is yourself? Maybe give a clone of yourself? Oh so the verse says:- Joh 3:16 “For ELOAH-FATHER so loved the world that ELOAH FATHER gave His one and only CLONE, that whoever AMANUAH in the CLONE shall not perish but have eternal life Now this is possible, the clone is the Father in a different expression. But not a personality expression? Your theory is now much the same as my theory. You say you have three clones of the the Father. I say we have three clones of the Divine. You say your three clones of the Father are one god I say my three clones of the Divine are one god. Question: How many cells made up mankind? 16 sixtrillion or 32 sixtrillion? Is mankind adam or eve or both adam and eve,? Is a clone any different to the original ? I have always said, mankind was one being, but two personalities of loving. That is one god, the human. D" The Right Hand is the hand of instruction and salvation - the hand of tzedakah The Left Hand is the hand of mystery But you claim this is a Jewish concept - therefore you refuse to undertand - because you don't want to understand - too complicated you sayR" without mocking you too much, I would say you are playing a word game. D "All Robert believes in biology and this WORLD of fleshR" OH, the atomic world is made of three subatomic particles, the positive spin, the negative spin and the no spin particles. Yet these three particles of motion give up their individual powers to become compound unity, and hence adopt a new power for each element. Is hydrogen a one god of power, or three gods of power? ANd strangely enough we have three forms of this one element, H H+ and H++. Dave thinks the creation of compound quantum unity only exists in biology, but it exists in the quantum world too. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 11, 2021 2:33:16 GMT -5
R" Write the pronouns out Dave to avoid confusion for readers to read. Gen 3:15 and Jesus/GOD will put enmity between Satan/Serpent and the woman, and between Satan/Serpent 's seed and woman' seed: Jesus/GOD shall bruise Satan/Serpent , and thou shalt bruise his heel I agree – but I would say Christ/God – jesus was a man – Christ is Godwhy does GOD put enmity between Satan and the Humans?And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world
---------------------- D"Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you? Is the serpent, a prosecutor sent by God to tempt humans to develop free will? Y/NYou already know my answer Hebrew satan is heaven’s prosecutor The Beast of Revelation is the serpent race that are our real struggleDid the prosecutor tempt the humans the sin Dave? Y/NYou already know my answerIn fact developing man's free will is silly? How can God develop man's free will unless man sins? Therefore testing the free will of man, is essentially wrong in itself, this is an evil to begin with. SO your god is evil to want to test man's free will, Deu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. Jer 17:10 I Adonai search the heart, I try the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds. 1Ch 29:17 I know, my God, that You search the heart and take pleasure in uprightness. With integrity of heart I have willingly offered all these things. Psa 11:5 Adonai examines the righteous. Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.” Psa 66:10 For You have tested us, O God—You have purified us, as silver is refined. Ezk 21:13 For there is a testing; and what if even the [k]rod which despises will cease to be?” declares the Lord God. Therefore testing the free will of man, is essentially wrong in itself, this is an evil to begin with. SO your god is evil to want to test man's free will,So sad you deny scripture – not only do you have a god of evil – now you suggest that the One True god is evil – you are so full of evil – it is all you see and speakRP" You seem to think the cherubims are just robotic machines programmed to love God back. D" It is Jewish theology – Jesus did not come to rewrite the past – Mat 5:17-20 Rome is the one that wants to rewrite scripture – The doctrine of satan and his Fallen Angels did not exist until Rome invented it R" I see. LOOK – you deliberately miss the entire point of my ministry – you spend all your time repeating it in error just so it is corrupt – Oh how I long for an honest discussion!When Jesus spoke – How did the people take his words? How did they understand his words. What was the beliefs of the First Christians? How did the disciples understand what Jesus said.Fact – every one of them was Jewish with Jewish theology Fact – Who is the satan of the agl – Jesus spoke of Beelzebub and his shedim – no one was confused who Jesus was talking about. Fact – 64 time Enoch was quoted in the agl Fact – Enoch – was known to the Jews of the day Fact – at the time of Jesus – absolutely no one saw Ezk 28 as an angel becoming the god of evil Fact – absolutely no one ever dream that an angel could oppose God – until Rome invented it Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Roman Christendom – base entirely upon Rome and their doctrine of Fallen Angels – IS NOT the same theology as ahl Judaism. It is a replacement theology that empowers satan as a god while diminishing God. H 3610 "kilayim" DO Jews understand this term to mean GMO of humans? Agreed -= the Jews do allow genetic manipulation – in the cause of preserving lifeI used to think the verse meant Hybridization of plants, animals and humans. Agreed – the Jews today allow GMO crops – in the cause of preserving lifeBut since technology has grown, I now know the verse refers to GMO of of plants, animals and humans. OKHere is a Hebrew word, I am sure is not invented with meaning by either Jews or Catholics, only by Robert in recent times, is my prediction to you Dave. Prove me wrong.Why would I want to prove you wrong – I sort of agree with youGen 6:1-4 – archon/mortal women hybrids – demi-gods – mixed seeds - agreedDid the Jews write about "yom echad" before the Einstein theory of relativity? Or did the Catholic? Well Schroeder discovered this? Or did Jews before him?Jewish Rabbis discussing the Kabbalah 1600 years ago! – He quotes them by name.You seem to think Jews wrote the Hebrew? Hmm? I thought God did using Jews hands. Therefore there are gemstones of stuff not known by Jews or Catholics.You can choose to be an ASS if you want to – is it helpfulR" "The Bible tells us the cherub were the first creatures to have sinned. D" Only if you make assumption and play a word game I will just stick to Judaism and scripture R" So now you choose to ignore Rabbi Moses Maimonedes and Rabbi Raymond Apple now? D"Is Rabbi Apple a pre-Roman source Robert – you cannot use Roman edit to prove Roman edit Can we stop all this man-made doctrine of yours ang get back to the ahl and agl D"The delicate of balance in nature should cause us praise – Robert says God world is flawed R" The idea of natural death, decomposing animals and flesh eating sharks, all before Adam sinned, is a perfect example of God's perfect Creation. How odd.Absolutely – nature in a delicate balance proving that it could only be an Intelligent Design Yes – there is overwhelming evidence that nature was nature before the flood and before man. I do not have to deny reality in order to support my doctrine Instead – my reality validate scripture and God – Rom 1:19 / Psa 19:2 – no matter where – or when – you look D"Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you R" I have listened to your talk for a long time Dave. I try not to misquote you. You misquote me all the time. You say I do not have a soul, You say I do not have a spirit. You misquote me all the time.Your soul is your spirit within your body – you absolutely deny this I do not misrepresent you – you say the soul of man is just the HS empowering us"Our worldly battle is simply with creatures God ordained to tempt man", This is a fair assessment of your theory Dave. You say GOD created the archons to test man's free will.D"D"Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you The Beast was created – of course – its only thought was of self (yester ra) The Beast and all its forms – serpent race, devils, demons, archon, satanas are biological (made with some matter) – they are driven by (yester ra) How does the Beast fit into creation? Rev 12:4 …. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. Whatever is created is eventually devoured – ENTROPY Rocks, molecules, atoms, stars, galaxies – all of it This is the function of the Beast It is inherent to creation – it is a by-product of creation – of the Left Hand This means GOD intentionally created archons, which suddenly thought of self, and thus do bad, but not sin, Entropy is not bad – it is balance because archons are programmed machines to test/tempt man to sin, D"Please quote me - to make sure you are Honest in what you say – as a Honest academic student – you would never misrepresent another’s work would you Cows are programmed machines with (yester ra) are they designed to get man to sin? Termites are programmed with (yester ra) are they designed to get man to sin? only man can sin. YES – man is the only creature hat is (yester tov)+(yester ra) The archon cannot sin because the archon has no free will. 2 answers - (A) Cows are (yester ra) creature – do cows sin? / Termites are (yester ra) creatures – do termites sin? (B) – 200 archon – chose to take on human form – when they did this (yester ra) desire / lust / power fathered the Nephilim – ½ archon + ½ human = demi-gods Did this grow sin in full human form – YES What was their sin – reproduce after your own kind – the only God given commandment given to the beast of the field / nature – other than be fruitful and multiply This group is held in chains awaiting to be used again in Rev 9 RP"Dave has one God who has three expressions of the same God. How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God? D" YES ABSOLUTELY – There is only ONE TRUE GOD R" SO can't you comment upon my logic? Bingo – this Jewish expression is clearly written in the agl – word for wordWhy do you deny scripture to make your doctrine palatable?Dave makes no answer. Dave don't know.Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, Mat 6:4 so that your tzedakah may be in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, shall reward you. The Right Hand is the hand of instruction and salvation - the hand of tzedakah The Left Hand is the hand of mystery But you claim this is a Jewish concept - therefore you refuse to undertand - because you don't want to understand - too complicated you say You just want to deny scripture – you think it a fun game to playR"How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God?DUH – read the passage – one is done in secret - one is a mysteryRP " Why does one expression need to pray to another expression? D" To complete the Gospel – to explain the Gospel – in as many ways as possible to prove - What – R" Again you are not answering my question. How can one mouth speak to the ears the same head? Mock God if you want to – limit Him to the same abilities as a man, because all you know is the WORLD and flesh of biology My God is absolute – unimaginable / incomprehensible I accept scripture – you mock GodIsa 40:18 To whom then will you liken God? To what likeness will you compare Him? Job 36:26 Behold, God is exalted—beyond our knowledge! The number of His years is unsearchable. You say you have three clones of the the Father.STOP IT – or this conversation will end! I TIER OF YOUR TWIST THE WORDS GAME
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2021 4:29:01 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" Deu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
Jer 17:10 I Adonai search the heart, I try the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.
1Ch 29:17 I know, my God, that You search the heart and take pleasure in uprightness. With integrity of heart I have willingly offered all these things.
Psa 11:5 Adonai examines the righteous.
Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.”
Psa 66:10 For You have tested us, O God—You have purified us, as silver is refined.
Ezk 21:13 For there is a testing; and what if even the [k]rod which despises will cease to be?” declares the Lord God.
Therefore testing the free will of man, is essentially wrong in itself, this is an evil to begin with. SO your god is evil to want to test man's free will, So sad you deny scripture – not only do you have a god of evil – now you suggest that the One True god is evil – you are so full of evil – it is all you see and speakRob replies " So sad you deny logic Dave. These verses are written AFTER mankind has SINNED, not BEFORE mankind sinned. If you are a fallen person, steeped with missing DNA from GOD, and missing powers from GOD, than yes, GOD requires to test your freewill, if you will indeed return to Him via faith in His words. In the garden of Eden, the creation of the universe for Adam was perfect, and Adam was perfect, but Scripture says a close Cherub sinned and His cherubims sinned with Him, so GOD banished them to earth, with Adam, but they were not allowed to rule over Adam, unless Adam chose to SIN. A tree represented that power in the garden, and the chief cherub could only tempt Adam from that one tree. The other tree was for eternal living, and was called the Tree of Life, indeed eating it's fruit guaranteed you would live forever. I quote your passage back to you " He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear," is correct, a great contest, is just another word for great controversy. D" When Jesus spoke – How did the people take his words? How did they understand his words. What was the beliefs of the First Christians? How did the disciples understand what Jesus said.R"Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? D" Fact – every one of them was Jewish with Jewish theologyR" Ac 23:6 ¶ But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. D" Fact – Who is the satan of the agl – Jesus spoke of Beelzebub and his shedim – no one was confused who Jesus was talking about.R"Ac 17:22 ¶ Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. D" Fact – 64 time Enoch was quoted in the aglR" Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints D" Fact – Enoch – was known to the Jews of the dayR" yes, but did Enoch write any scrolls? D" Fact – at the time of Jesus – absolutely no one saw Ezk 28 as an angel becoming the god of evilR" Mr 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: Ro 16:25 ...according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, Re 17:7 ..I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. D"Fact – absolutely no one ever dream that an angel could oppose God – until Rome invented itR" Hmm? --------------- D" H 3610 "kilayim" DO Jews understand this term to mean GMO of humans?Agreed -= the Jews do allow genetic manipulation – in the cause of preserving life
I used to think the verse meant Hybridization of plants, animals and humans.Agreed – the Jews today allow GMO crops – in the cause of preserving life
But since technology has grown, I now know the verse refers to GMO of of plants, animals and humans.OK
Here is a Hebrew word, I am sure is not invented with meaning by either Jews or Catholics, only by Robert in recent times, is my prediction to you Dave. Prove me wrong.Why would I want to prove you wrong – I sort of agree with you
Rob is amazed Dave. wow. Oh wow. This insight has come to me in recent times Dave. I think is it truly wrong to have anything to do with GMO, at any level, we are imply playing God. And this is why God caused a great flood, to get rid of GMO humanoids, and other abominations happening on the earth before the flood. My point in raising this, is we can find gemstones of truth not found by Jews or Catholics or anybody, because God placed them there, for insightful humans to read and discover them, and hence become a little more inspired by the words of God. Thanks for your agreement with me ------------------- D" I do not misrepresent you – you say the soul of man is just the HS empowering usR" I am happy with your assessment of this idea, yes. you write correctly of my view. ---------------------- D" Entropy is not bad – it is balanceR" Can you unpack this theme a little more please? Entropy: friction, decomposition and death of animals, chaos, randomness. Take friction. Does not friction wear out the energy pulse of God every time friction is employed? What would happy in a universe without friction? All energy would be directed perfectly by God. ------------------ D" Cows are programmed machines with (yester ra) are they designed to get man to sin?R" OK, than why was an archon allowed to talk to Eve in the garden and tempt her to sin? D" Did this grow sin in full human form – YES What was their sin – reproduce after your own kind – the only God given commandment given to the beast of the field / nature – other than be fruitful and multiply This group is held in chains awaiting to be used again in Rev 9R" Are you saying the archon was just an intelligent animal like others, but began to sin causing havoc among man, by having sex with them, and thus sinning wilfully against humans? How is this possible if archons have no free will to do anything except it's own programming? You seem to be saying the archons sinned, and now help humans to sin? D "Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, Mat 6:4 so that your tzedakah may be in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, shall reward you.
The Right Hand is the hand of instruction and salvation - the hand of tzedakah The Left Hand is the hand of mystery But you claim this is a Jewish concept - therefore you refuse to undertand - because you don't want to understand - too complicated you sayR" Hmm? OK, is this not a idiom, only known to Jews in Jewish language? What does this mean? Mt 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men.Verse 2 tells you what this means Dave? When you love somebody do not make a big deal of your love to others, so others reward you of your works. But do your love responding quietly without getting others to notice your love. God hates a show off and a boaster of his love. This is what this alms love thing is about Dave. D" Mock God if you want to – limit Him to the same abilities as a man, because all you know is the WORLD and flesh of biologyR" I do not mock God, I study the verses about GOD Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named Why is elohiym stated as a family picture here Dave? And to add to this family picture idea is the birth of their eternal SON with humanity, just as earthly parents might:- Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. How many parents are required to add humanity to the seed? two How many expressions of GOD come over the SON of GOD, to add humanity to divinity? two These two expressions are similes of masculine love and feminine love. I just follow the Scriptures Dave. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 11, 2021 10:54:36 GMT -5
D" Deu 8:2 …in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. These verses are written AFTER mankind has SINNED, not BEFORE mankind sinned.More Robert logic – the serpent was not in the garden until after Eve took a bite The same as – Eve only had one choice (tov) – (yester ra) did not exist until Eve chose it The gun appeared in your hand – only after you pulled the tirggerIn the garden of Eden, the creation of the universe for Adam was perfect, And – in full balance the serpent was right thereI quote your passage back to you "He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear," is correct, a great contest, is just another word for great controversy.You Great Controversy is between your god of tov vrs your god of raThe Gnostic Contest is between man and WORLD and man and archon as scripute says STOP MISREPRESENT ME – can you ever post anything with exaggerating the facts to fit your argument D"When Jesus spoke – How did the people take his words? How did they understand his words. What was the beliefs of the First Christians? How did the disciples understand what Jesus said. D"Fact – every one of them was Jewish with Jewish theology R" Ac 23:6 ¶ But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.Correct – I have tried to make this very clear to you – but you do not want to know There are two types of Jews – Pharisees and Sadducees Pharisees preach the spirit, resurrection, and the afterlife - Nicodemus – all the disciples – Jesus They are the authors of the Kabbalah Sadducees do not believe in the spirit – they preach the law – they are the authors of the Talmud
D"Fact – Who is the satan of the agl – Jesus spoke of Beelzebub and his shedim – no one was confused who Jesus was talking about. You did not know who he was talking about – did you – modern Roman ChristianD"Fact – 64 time Enoch was quoted in the agl D"Fact – Enoch – was known to the Jews of the day R" yes, but did Enoch write any scrolls?Show me a Torah in the hand writing of Moses Show me a Gospel written by John Instead of examining the information – you just want to discredit the source Where do you that this attitude that most of Jewish literature about themselves and their God is heresy? Answer – this is the Roman edit and you are such a good Catholic.D"Fact – at the time of Jesus – absolutely no one saw Ezk 28 as an angel becoming the god of evil Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, AgreedRe 17:7 ..I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. YES – agreed – Mystery Babylon D"Fact – absolutely no one ever dream that an angel could oppose God – until Rome invented it R" Hmm? Let’s see your documenttion Robert – I have been waiting for more than 2 years now--------------- D"H 3610 "kilayim" DO Jews understand this term to mean GMO of humans? Agreed -= the Jews do allow genetic manipulation – in the cause of preserving life I used to think the verse meant Hybridization of plants, animals and humans. Agreed – the Jews today allow GMO crops – in the cause of preserving life The Jewish view is obvious – if you understood JudaismWhat is the meaning of Life? Why am I Here – Answer –to Jer 1:5 A Jew cannot do his assignment if he is not in the body – so medicine – GMOs are seen as the gift of intelligence – in the cause of preserving life – so they can serve GodHere is a Hebrew word, I am sure is not invented with meaning by either Jews or Catholics, only by Robert in recent times, is my prediction to you Dave. Prove me wrong. Why would I want to prove you wrong – I sort of agree with you Rob is amazed Dave. wow. Oh wow. This insight has come to me in recent times Dave. Sorry – you are wrong – Enoch spoke of the Nephilim long before Jesus------------------- D"Entropy is not bad – it is balance R" Can you unpack this theme a little more please? What would happy in a universe without friction? All energy would be directed perfectly by God.It did exist – why do you deny scripture?Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens … This is the First Age – the age of spirit – spiritual - a lot happened during this age – the age of tov Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth. Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, Entropy: friction, decomposition and death of animals, chaos, randomness. Take friction. Does not friction wear out the energy pulse of God every time friction is employed?YES!------------------ D"Cows are programmed machines with (yester ra) are they designed to get man to sin? R" OK, than why was an archon allowed to talk to Eve in the garden and tempt her to sin?Gen 3:1 But the serpent was shrewder than any animal of the field that Adonai Elohim made. A Cow is a dumb animal – the archon are not Baboons cause mischief just to have fun and entertain themselves – are they evil? Why do baboons cause mischief to entertain themselves – satisfying (yester ra) And the archon are even more clever and devious than the baboons – by far Dose this add pressure upon man – sure Dose this added pressure cause man to see WORLD or God? Dose this added pressure cause man to sin – to focuse upon WORLD instead of God – sure Is the motive of a baboon to make you sin? – Or to make itself laugh? The Great ContestFather alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.There is only One God and he is the One True Creator – He is absolute – His Will / His PlanHe, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.all those who contend leave behind – their gnosis of the Lord – we forgetEcc 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done will be done again. There is nothing new under the sun. Ecc 1:10 Is there anything about which is said, “Look! This is new!”? It was already here long ago, in the ages long before us. Ecc 1:11 There is no remembrance for former things, and things yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow. and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge – be resistant – be confused – multiple doctrines instead of one Messianic Judaismflee to the one who exists. – return to the Father – Prodigal SonAnd (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the worldWe have knowledge because we know God – deep inside (yester tov) before conceptionWe have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world – it is not about this WORLD – we long for the next It is not about a world of biology – it is about a spiritual reality What is your satan’s kingdom – just this WORLD - dust Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.distraction - life of toil - occupied by worldly affairs – no time devoted to the holy spirit.Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.” The Contest is man vrs WORLD + man vrs archon (the Beast, devil, serpent race, satanas, and all of them are false prophets – because their only message is WORLD)This is reality! It has always been the Jewish realityAre there ra gods – yes many – more than any Roman Christin would ever admitGod’s scripture is for the 100% - the entire globe Israel is only the 1% - the 99% are left to the archon – left to the WORLD Zeus – Apollo – Set – Horus – Oden – Hercules – Aboriginal fairies – native American Kachinas – African spirits – the papavu – aliens creatures – UFOs – Catholic demons – Japanese Shades – Jewish Beelzebub and the shedim – ancient alien gods – space gods = ALL 100% REAL – ALL 100% SCRIPTURE – ALL ARCHON IT DOES NOT REQUIRE – a god of evil – or a kingdom called hellSatan the god of evil who is out to drag you to hell is a Catholic invention that diminishes God and scripture – designed as a form of population control to humanely govern the peopleD"Did this grow sin in full human form – YES What was their sin – reproduce after your own kind – the only God given commandment given to the beast of the field / nature – other than be fruitful and multiply This group is held in chains awaiting to be used again in Rev 9 R" Are you saying the archon was just an intelligent animal like others, but began to sin causing havoc among man, by having sex with them, and thus sinning wilfully against humans? How is this possible if archons have no free will to do anything except it's own programming?I said – as they took on human form they also took they fell for the same (yester ra) lust, greed, powerYou seem to be saying the archons sinned, and now help humans to sin?YES – Enoch tells us that the 200 – took on human form and lusted – correct The flood was to eliminate them – but 10% remain The Jews were to eliminate them – the Genocide of the 7 tribes of Amorite – but they didn’tJdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’” They remain – to this very day D"Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, Mat 6:4 so that your tzedakah may be in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, shall reward you. The Right Hand is the hand of instruction and salvation - the hand of tzedakah The Left Hand is the hand of mystery But you claim this is a Jewish concept - therefore you refuse to undertand - because you don't want to understand - too complicated you say R" Hmm? OK, is this not a idiom, only known to Jews in Jewish language? What does this mean?YES – it is a Jewish idiom - IT IS A JEWISH conceptVerse 2 tells you what this means Dave? When you love somebody do not make a big deal of your love to others, so others reward you of your works. But do your love responding quietly without getting others to notice your love. God hates a show off and a boaster of his love. This is what this alms love thing is about Dave. R"How is this possible, and how does the right hand of God do things the left hand of God does not know about? Is God not fully cognitive of all the functions of the left and right hands of God?DUH – read the passage – one is done in secret - one is a mystery D"Mock God if you want to – limit Him to the same abilities as a man, because all you know is the WORLD and flesh of biology R" I do not mock God, I study the verses about GODAnthropomorphism - the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.God is beyond man’s ability to comprehend or understandWhy is elohiym stated as a family picture here Dave?Because God is the father of the ALL
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2021 14:38:06 GMT -5
RP"You seem to be saying the archons sinned, and now help humans to sin? D" YES – Enoch tells us that the 200 – took on human form and lusted – correct
D"The Contest is man vrs WORLD + man vrs archon (the Beast, devil, serpent race, satanas, and all of them are false prophets – because their only message is WORLD)
This contest had archon creatures subtle, advanced thinkers, saw women, sinned in having sex with them, now God will punish them for their sins, as the archons also sin in getting humans to sin, keeping them in the world.
How is this any different to my view?
Your archon was sinless originally, my cherub was sinless originally Your archon chooses to sin with women, my cherub chooses to sin against the Most High Your archon was in the garden tempting humans to sin, My cherub was in the garden tempting humans to sin, Your archon has many others who help him, My cherub has many other cherub who help him too.
You cannot argue the archon was programmed because the chief archon chose to sin, seeing the woman, and self rose in it's mind. This action is the same sort of action humans do, it's called sinning. Caused by freewill.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 12, 2021 18:02:19 GMT -5
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