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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2021 15:32:21 GMT -5
D" You teach that God is weak – cannot even hold on to His own angels Even angels can fall from God’s Grace You teach satan strong – recreated all of God Plan against God’ Will You use to preach that your satan actually rule all men everywhere You have been taught to deny the concept of One True God You have been taught to deny the spirit – you mock it (I really like Jenny Weaver?) You deny that Christians are called to be spiritual – to be the First FruitsR" No need to mock Dave. You teach that God is flawed because he deals with a flawed universe, and cannot create things above this condition. You have atoms that spin and fall apart. You have frictional forces that God cannot create a world without friction. You have natural cycles of eating and decomposing. So God cannot create a life system without eating other animals? So God cannot create a life system without decomposition? You can this a fairy tale, a magic kingdom? I would call this a GOD who is clever and able to create anything He wants. D" God cannot even hold on to His own angels, Even angels can fall from God’s GraceR" Well that is because of angels having free will. But you have angels as robots. You have cows as robots. You have archons doing bad things. What a stupid God is this, all robotic programming, and some programmed to do bad? Why my God created all creatures to have free will (whatever that means)? Even the birds are singing languages according to science studies. Even Alex the parrot had 4 yr old child intelligence, even the ability to mock. Angels with free will choice. wow Why do you assume mankind was first man closest to God? A trillion years ago, why not angels the first creature closest to God? And if one angel sins, what happens than? Free will rebels against God? Oh so it is a weak God ?, when the prodigal wanted to walk away from the Father? Or just a choice, love has a risk associated with it? A risk of walking away... D" You teach satan strong – recreated all of God Plan against God’ WillR" Well sinning has some advantages over GOD, sin can deceive, sin can lie, sin can say truth and error mixed together, God cannot do these things ... Never have I said Satan is stronger than GOD, in fact Satan understands he is weaker than God, because Satan cannot create, Satan only spoils, Satan is not immortal, only God is immortal Satan made the lie, thou shalt not dying die (the lie of the eternal spirit spark) ------------------- D" www.joydigitalmag.com/everyday-life/dead-sea-coming-alive/
this Rift Valley expanse that has been unable to support life since the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, thousands of years ago, useful only for drawing tourists to sample its healing properties while floating unsupported. Freshwater fish have now been seen swimming in the surrounding sinkholes that have opened up in recent years as the sea,R" An interesting read Dave. From a prophet you find difficult to read, remember? D" I have lived my life by LEVY JENNINGS You must plot all the data – to eliminate a bias Then a central theme emerges from the data – some data points are too far from the mean They are outside 3sd – we discard these as OUTLIERS Don Patton – Richard Dawkins – too extremes The more data you add to your data set – the more the mean is revealedR" Oh, so no wonder you can't read Scripture, you reject some verses as extremes, not the majority. Like Gordon on elohiym, you reject the 6 verses in favour of the 3,000 verses. You reject the cherub chata verse in favour of the 90 verses that support something else. I get you now. Why didn't you say this 1 year ago? That is not how I read scripture or deal with life. I evaluate all the data, and reject none. You do not treat word meanings like your LEVY JENNINGS theory. I use all the verses to find one basic meaning for all the verses used and all the contexts used, not the average meaning, rejecting verses you don't like. D" The more data you add to your data set – the more the mean is revealedR" Often God writes one verse, not many. To hide intentionally a truth. Only one verse on salvation in the OT explained by Moses Only one verse defines the origin of sin among angels. Only one symbol of Moses, placed a burning upon the pole, to over come sin. D" Did earth worms come before starfish? – stupid side track – stupid distraction Recognize what is in your sight – things only happened one way – God’s WayR" God doesn't write details like your example, Hebrew is not about details. Sure things happened God's way, beyond understanding. D" There is zero science that teaches magic – science is the study of mechanismR" you are funny. God created all things by simply speaking His words of power.Are there details in that power? Yes, mechanism? yes So what is magic? Some stupid thing Satan invented, and a term you use. God is a powerful force, and just because you cannot fathom His creation does not mean its magic. So is love just mechanical, physical, sex motions, material motions, doing motions? or is love deeper than this? What is an emotion of love? a feeling? a hunch? a joy? a tear? a spirit? things we do not understand? Man can program a computer to play chess, but not to make stupid moves. Love is more than a program, love is irrational at times but always rational... Does this make sense? Only humans can beat humans at chess. The best human was beaten at chess with a computer having input from a human. What did the human supply that the computer couldn't? the emotions of love. (irrational moves) God is beyond the programs of the mechanism, we call it emotion, bliss or stuff we cannot understand Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 26, 2021 16:36:47 GMT -5
D"You teach that God is weak – cannot even hold on to His own angels R" No need to mock Dave. If I repeat the doctrines you present – you say I am mocking Instead of defending your doctrine through scripture – you just attack me personally
D"God cannot even hold on to His own angels, Even angels can fall from God’s Grace R" Well that is because of angels having free will. Only you teach teach this Catholic doctrine – the Jews do not – I do not – scripture does not You use Catholic circular reasoning – Ezk 28 proves angels have free will – therefore Ezk 28 proves your satan – Is there a chance you know any other scripture?
God created the world in a glorious balance we call nature What a stupid God is this, Your words Christian D"You teach satan strong – recreated all of God Plan against God’ Will R" Well sinning has some advantages over GOD, See – you teach satan stong
Never have I said Satan is stronger than GOD, in fact Satan understands he is weaker than God, because Yet - your satan and your God are locked in a great controversy that God is unable to win War they fight – in heaven – toe to toe -------------------
D"I have lived my life by LEVY JENNINGS R" Oh, so no wonder you can't read Scripture, you reject some verses as extremes, not the majority. This might be my last response to you – you have no respect for me or the word of god
D"Did earth worms come before starfish? – stupid side track – stupid distraction Recognize what is in your sight – things only happened one way – God’s Way R" God doesn't write details like your example, Hebrew is not about details. Sure things happened God's way, beyond understanding. Then why do you post it as a fact to discredit Incremental Creation Why do you post garbage as fact - then deny it is relevant Why do you post things as fact - then deny they were really fact at all You are pathological - lieing comes way to easy for you D"There is zero science that teaches magic – science is the study of mechanism R" you are funny. God created all things by simply speaking His words of power. Are there details in that power? Yes, mechanism? yes Answer the question – did you teach mechanism – or magic
R" you are funny. God created all things by simply speaking His words of power. Are there details in that power? Yes, mechanism? yes
For everything under the sun except ceation - double speaker
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2021 5:03:25 GMT -5
D" Is there a chance you know any other scripture?R" There is other Scripture to prove angels have free will. Jesus told the Jews that the devil is a liar, and a murderer. These are transgressions of the law, hence require a creature to willfully sin. Hence free will. This is enough proof already. D" God created the world in a glorious balance we call natureR" OK let's test this "nature theory " of yours Ge 3:10 I was naked; and I hid myself in fear. Natural animals are already clothed in fur and skin and are not afraid. Adam was a mammal, and should be already clothed in fur and skin, but became fearful and naked. Why is this? He sinned and immediately changes happened because of his sin. Ge 3:14 thou art cursed above all cattle, Natural animals like a serpent could fly... But now the serpent was cursed because it sinned too (the angel possessing the serpent sinned), so God cursed the serpent, and the angel possessing it, with permanent affects due their sinning against humans. Ge 3:16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception Natural animals like human child birth was without pain, now it is painful...Why? because God cursed the woman's natural order of nature. Ge 3:17 ¶ And unto Adam he said...cursed is the ground for thy sake The natural ground used to follow blissful laws, now they follow chaos laws because of Adam's sin Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: There is a difference between these two trees, the tree of good and evil causes one who partakes to surely die and become nonexistant. Therefore GOD has nothing to do with this tree, even though God knows the results and consequences of sinning from this tree. Instead the tree of life makes one live forever, hence humans and God live under this tree. If you follow before SIN and after SIN, natural laws changed. God did not create the chaos natural laws originally in the garden or the world, these things came in after sin. D" your God are locked in a great controversy that God is unable to winR" Are you for real? Of course God wins, He has limited the sin problem to just 6,000 years. Satan knows his time is short. Sin never arises a second time. God's love is the most powerful thing over evil. Nothing trumps love and love is victorious, even if the force seems weak to the wicked one. D" Then why do you post it as a fact to discredit Incremental CreationR" I do not discredit your Incremental Creation theory. Never said anything wrong about it? D" Answer the question – did you teach mechanism R" Yes I did. Not sure of all the mechanisms you wish me to know, but yes I taught mechanisms. Periodic table, valency, chemical bonding, natural selection, fossilization process, uplift of land, Noah's flood, assimilation of foods, Krebs cycle, photosynthesis, mathematics equations, and so on. D" double speaker - You are pathological - lieing comes way to easy for youR" sorry you feel that way, but I am always honest and serious in my dealings with you, I am not emotional nor pathological , I present Scripture as I see the HEBREW, as Jeff Benner teaches me. D" This might be my last response to you – you have no respect for me or the word of godR" I took time to read this link, I suggest you do the same, but you are an expert in this process already... www.spcforexcel.com/knowledge/measurement-systems-analysis/levey-jennings-chartsWhat you wrote " I have lived my life by LEVY JENNINGS You must plot all the data – to eliminate a bias Then a central theme emerges from the data – some data points are too far from the mean They are outside 3sd – we discard these as OUTLIERS Don Patton – Richard Dawkins – too extremes The more data you add to your data set – the more the mean is revealedR" If you look at the link, the LEVY JENNINGS method is a method of evaluating the mean, and getting the mean based on the data available. It is a science process to used in the experimental processes. You have confused me, by saying you use this method to eliminate a bias?They are outside 3sd – we discard these as OUTLIERS, OK I get this reading the above link... but than you apply this technique to human religious views... Don Patton – Richard Dawkins – too extremesThe problem is you are forcing the reader to take sides and argue against you.... I don't think the LEVY JENNINGS method should be used in this way at all. And you shouldn't have brought it up. It is fine in pathology but not fine in religious views and reading Scripture. Sorry for misunderstandings, Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 27, 2021 9:20:48 GMT -5
D"Is there a chance you know any other scripture? R" There is other Scripture to prove angels have free will. Let discuss them again – OK – we have done this two or three times nowJesus told the Jews that the devil is a liar, and a murderer. What do angels have to do with the Beast of Revelation – NOTHING!This is enough proof already.That you deny the Beast and our real struggle in favor of the Catholic god of evil in your two god religion – that denies the ONE TRUE GODD"God created the world in a glorious balance we call nature R" OK let's test this "nature theory " of yours Ge 3:10 I was naked; and I hid myself in fear. Natural animals are already clothed in fur and skin and are not afraid. Adam was a mammal, and should be already clothed in fur and skin, but became fearful and naked. Why is this? He sinned and immediately changes happened because of his sin. DUH – the only thing that changed is his knowledge Pigs are pretty naked – are they embarrassed?Ge 3:16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception Natural animals like human child birth was without pain, now it is painful...Why? because God cursed the woman's natural order of nature. Do animals suffer pain as a woman does – ANSWER – NOOnly mammals do the live birth thing – ever hear a mouse or dog scream in pain? And do not say – well they are uncomfortable Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: There is a difference between these two trees, the tree of good and evil This is the last time you will use this phrase on this forumIt is a lie – you are telling a lie – I have asked you to stop lying – but you cannot Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat Ge 3:22 … the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:Respect the word of God! At least on this forum!I will delete all further references to "THE TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL"D"Then why do you post it as a fact to discredit Incremental Creation R" I do not discredit your Incremental Creation theory. Never said anything wrong about it? D"double speaker - You are pathological - lying comes way to easy for you R" sorry you feel that way, but I am always honest and serious in my dealings with you, Why do you post facts =- then deny that they are relevant or were ever facts at all? Does it help build your persona of credibility?D"Answer the question – did you teach mechanism R" Yes I did. Not sure of all the mechanisms you wish me to know, but yes I taught mechanisms. Periodic table, valency, chemical bonding, natural selection, fossilization process, uplift of land, Noah's flood, assimilation of foods, Krebs cycle, photosynthesis, mathematics equations, and so on. Yet you argue this appeared complete and full instantaneouslyR" I took time to read this link, I suggest you do the same, but you are an expert in this process already... www.spcforexcel.com/knowledge/measurement-systems-analysis/levey-jennings-chartsI could teach this link R" If you look at the link, the LEVY JENNINGS method is a method of evaluating the mean, and getting the mean based on the data available. It is a science process to used in the experimental processes. getting the mean based on a random data setOr - Supporting a mean based on all the available data Medical example – Rapid ‘Quick and Dirty’ testing of Step A (or covid) My target mean = 100% specificity – 100% pos are pos and negs are neg Truth – in reality – we get some false pos (above the mean) + some false neg (below the mean) If my SD is large many false results either side – my test is not very specific My job is to make my SD as small as possible - so only a few false results slip through If I have too many fasle pos and rare fals neg - I have a positive bias Too many false negs compared to false pos = a negative bias In the testing process PCR is quantative result - example <100 = Negative Why - 1- because if you run the assay wiout any sample at all you might get a reading of 99 (cross reactivity) 2- if you are exposed - you are exposed - positives range from 100 and greater 3- if I get a 0 as a result - I know it is an out-lyer 4- answers might range from 100-500 - but if I get a result of 20 million - I know it is an out-lyer It is fine in pathology but not fine in religious views and reading Scripture.In scripture – the Torah is the mean – so surprised you don’t now this!If you had a document from the Philistines about taking the Ark of the Covenant - only to give it back the next morning – would there be any truth in it – sure – would it validate the Torah - sure 200 Australians saw a UFO in broad daylight – is there any truth in it – sure - does it validate the Torah - sure The Greeks swore up and down that their gods were real because they had tangible evidence – their gods interacted with man – performed miracles (tricks of nature) – is there any truth in it – sure - does it validate the Torah – sure ‘other gods’ the Greek, Islam, the World all of it is on my data setAll of it supports the target mean – the TorahSome support the Mean really close but not perfect – Mat/Luke – Ezk/Numb History supports the Torah – Even the sub-atomic particles are form by a Trinity of quarks – 2 the same with one different God/Christ –HS You taught science mechanism – don’t you understand you were just teaching scriptureThe Riddle of Steel – I have a broadsword – every male I have ever met wants to swing it about Is it real – yes Is it smooth – yes – not really if you magnified the surface it would be a mountain range of molecules Look at those molecules and they are just a collection of atoms Look at those atoms and they are a trinity of sub atomic particles Look at those sub-atomic particles and they are a Trinity of quarks Look at a quark closely and it is best defined as a cloud of energy All corporeal reality is built upon the non-thing energy Reality just might be one big holographic projection – of forces Hmmmm?Does real science deny creation or God – NO!Why can’t you see it – you say you taught itYou have confused me, by saying you use this method to eliminate a bias?You use this method every time you listen to a politician – the left is on one side – the right the other side – the truth lays somewhere in the middleYou have confused me, by saying you use this method to eliminate a bias?You use this method every time you every time you weigh the pros ans cons of any decisionThey are outside 3sd – we discard these as OUTLIERS, OK I get this reading the above link... but than you apply this technique to human religious views... Don Patton – Richard Dawkins – too extremes the left is on one side – the right the other side – the truth lays somewhere in the middle
The problem is you are forcing the reader to take sides and argue against you.... Both sides are at war with the other - You denounce all science as evolution – it is an extreme opinion Don Patton is no more or less truthful than Richard Dawkins – two extreme positions fighting against one another. Non-linear Time, Relativity and the Logarithmic Days of Creation + Incremental CreationSATIFIES BOTH because they are BOTH SPEAKING ABOUT THE SAME EVENT Things only happened one way – GOD’s WAY!This revelation should make every Christian overwhelmed with joy and validation Your response – I don’t get it!Because you don’t want to get it Don Patton (ICR) is not an educator – he is an agenda pusher – a doctrine promoter Richard Dawkins (atheist) is not an educator - he is an agenda pusher – a doctrine promoter Don Patton (ICR) does the faith as much harm as Richard Dawkins It forces people to take sides – believe this way (above the mean) – not that way (below the mean) – when they are both talking about God’s way (which is the target mean) Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Rom 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: Who teaches the world in evolution – White Western Roman Christendom? What has happened to White Western Roman Christendom?Non-linear Time, Relativity and the Logarithmic Days of Creation + Incremental CreationSATIFIES BOTH because they are BOTH SPEAKING ABOUT THE SAME EVENTand HISTORY VALIDATES SCRIPTUREThings only happened one way – GOD’s WAY!Science validates Genisis 1 - History validates Romans 1 Why isn't every Christian on the planet excited by this - I am Scripture is alive and real - anywhere you look - everywhere you look Your responseD" Why isn't every Christian on the planet excited by this - I am Excited by what?
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Post by Dave on Sept 27, 2021 11:30:43 GMT -5
D"Cherub – does not mean an angel – it can mean many things – a guardian R" Well that's your opinion, my opinion is the cherub is an angel, "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbahhttps://www.jstor.org › stable by D Arbel · 2005 · Cited by 14 — Tradition to Commentary: Torah and Its Interpretation in the Midrash Sifre ... "Ezekiel 28: The Fall of Adam," in Literature on Adam Questions about Eve's Iniquity, Beauty, and Fall: The "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbah" Traditions of Eve www.thetorah.com/article/the-cherubim-their-role-on-the-ark-in-the-holy-of-holiesDr. RabbiZev Farber - The Cherubim: Their Role on the Ark in the Holy of Holies The most intriguing and surprising aspect of the Ark, and possibly the whole Mishkan, are the Cherubs on the Ark’s cover. What are cherubs? The Torah describes them in detail in Exodus 25: Tradition has interpreted the Cherubs to represent anything from a child to a man, woman to an angel, from a bird to a Torah scholar. Ancient Near Eastern evidence answers this uncertainty, or at least tells us what the Cherubim originally meant. What is a Cherub?1 Adam Clark - What these were we cannot distinctly say. 2 Adam Clark - The cherubim. Hebrew plurals in the masculine end in general in im: to add an s to this when we introduce such words into English, is very improper; therefore the word should be written cherubim, not cherubims. But what were these? They are utterly unknown. Conjectures and guesses relative to their nature and properties are endless. 3 Mathew Henry - Anointed kings should be to their subjects as anointed cherubim, that cover them with the wings of their power; 4 craigkeener – those who apply the text to the devil declare that it also applies to him, because (they claim) some features of the text cannot apply to anyone but the devil. This argument, as we shall see, is not actually accurate. 5 craigkeener - Ezekiel refers to an arrogant human ruler. 6 craigkeener - even if these two passages referred to the devil as well as to earthly rulers—though in context they do not—why do defenders of this view often apply these passages to the devil yet never apply them also to earthly rulers judged by God for their arrogance? 7 craigkeener - I suspect that many believers simply assume these passages refer to the devil because that is the way we have always heard them interpreted, but many of us never closely examined them in context. Why doesn’t every Christian Commentary support the SDA Robert view?No Jew supports the Robert’s view No Messianic Jew supports Robert’s view No Gnostic Christian support Robert’s view Many – Christian Commentaries do not support Robert’s view Not all types of Christians support Robert’s viewI belong to this groupYes – there is a sub-set within Christianity that do believe in cherub chata That would be those closest to Rome and the Roman doctrine of Fallen Angels – Roman Catholics, Reformed Baptist, and SDA Scripture says – who can oppose God – no oneBut the doctrine of fallen angels is built upon satan opposing God Cherub means the function of a - "guardian" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of Go's throne are gaurdian angels The Cherub at the gate to Eden - were Guardians of the Gate A King - of Tyre or anywhere - is the guardian of his people If Mom and Dad die - grandpa can become a guardian Your word game of absolutes is just a game you playI say guardian - you say angel I say Beast - you say Hebrew satan I say the verb means to make or establish / ordain - you say it means satan rules every man Scripture says 2 deaths - you are confused what this means Scripture says spirit and spiritual - you mock a 'Light Bulb Moment' Either - you are a student - who learns Or you are just preaching a doctrine pushing an agenda in service to your "my way only church" that divides and pollutes Christianity. I would rather be a member of the "Church that is the Bride of Christ" and the only agenda = Jer 1:5Just as it was for the Jew Just as it was for the Messianic Jew Just as it was for the First Christians The need to fight amoungst ourselves - to split Christianity into 2500 registered different "one way churches" - Oh - and the anti-Chtist = Rome Is a distraction - a miss-direction - a pollution/dilution of the the GospelAll the while - as Western Roman Christendom implodes. Scripture is alive and well - unfolding on the nightly news right before our eyes
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2021 14:21:13 GMT -5
Dave like Jews do not see cherub as angelic beings :- www.thetorah.com/article/the-cherubim-their-role-on-the-ark-in-the-holy-of-holiesThe Cherubim: Their Role on the Ark in the Holy of Holies Exodus 25:18 According to this description, cherubs have faces and wings, and God speaks from in between them. What do the cherubs represent? Why are they placed on top of the ark? According to Rabbi Abahu, a cherub had the face of a child. He bases this on a word play between the Hebrew keruv and the Aramaic ruvya, utilizing the preposition “ke” (=like/as) to make up for the otherwise missing first letter. This suggestion is clearly a midrashic etymology. Ibn Ezra (Exod. 25:18) already noted that the kaf is part of the root of the word. Although suggesting a meaning for the term, Rabbi Abahu does not suggest a meaning for the image. Why should winged children sit atop the Ark? On the total opposite spectrum, R. Bachya ben Asher says they are angels. This interpretation of cherub associates them with another group of winged angels, the Seraphim mentioned in Isaiah 6. (Most biblical angels do not have wings.)R" So Jewish thought is divided. Well my understanding from reading Scripture is the cherub is an angel:- I quote for our Church Prophetess:- " The Great Hope (Condensed), p. 52.6 (Ellen Gould White) Satan seems paralyzed. Once a covering cherub, he remembers whence he has fallen. From the council where once he was honored he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, an angel of majestic presence. He knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his". Now Rob looks for some easy way in Scripture to link cherub to angelic beings:- Ex 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony,... OK I read Scripture and nothing easy to understand pops out. God sits in heaven on a throne between cherub creatures. That makes the cherub closest creatures to God. Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly What a pity this one verse offers so little clues to the cherub. Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Reading chapters later we see this scene of God, and this messengers with God. By association these messengers have to be cherub, the created creatures closest to God. D" 2 Adam Clark - ...But what were these? They are utterly unknown. Rob find comments left out by Dave: "Adam Clarke on Gen 3:24 " Hence it is very likely that the cherubs, to whatever order of beings they belonged, were emblems of the ALL-MIGHTY, and were those creatures by whom he produced the great effects of his power." Adam Clark is suggests cherubs are special angelic beings. www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/2012/102812PM_MartinLuther... Concerning this text, Martin Luther (1483-1546) said, “The evil spirit sleeps not, is cunning and wicked ... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Charles Spurgeon "Now, who can tell us the majesty of Christ? When he was enthroned in the highest heavens he was very God of very God; by him were the heavens made, and all the hosts thereof, by his power he hanged the earth upon nothing; his own almighty arm upheld the spheres; the pillars of the heavens rested upon him; the praises of angels, arch-angels, cherubim and seraphim, perpetually surrounded him; the full chorus of the Hallelujahs of the universe unceasingly flowed to the foot of his throne: he reigned supreme above all his creatures, God over all, blessed for ever." I suppose Dave, the Scripture has some details but not logical proof, so one can doubt it they wish to. ---------------------------------------- This doubting is similar to Dave's idea that the torah must include also the tanak:- I quote the Messanic emails I receive each day or so: - Throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament), the Jewish people read that the Word of God in the Torah (first five books of Moses) is everything they need to live a righteous and long life. As it is written:
The Torah (the Word) is the Way
"Teach them the statutes and the laws [torah], and make known to them the way in which they are to walk and the work they are to do." (Exodus 18:20; see also Psalm 119:1)
The Torah (the Word) is Truth
"Your righteousness is everlasting and your law [torah] is true." (Psalm 119:142)
The Torah (the Word) is Life
"The teaching [torah] of the wise is a fountain of life, turning a person from the snares of death." (Proverbs 13:14; see also Deuteronomy 32:47)
The Torah is Yeshua!
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
In fact, whenever Yeshua refers to Himself as "I" we could replace it with "Torah" because they are one, just as Father God and Yeshua are one.
"I [Torah] and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
Let's look a little closer at what exactly the Torah is comprised of and how the Jewish People celebrate God's Righteous Word here in Israel and around the world.
This morning in the synagogues in Israel we read the last pages of Devarim (Deuteronomy) and the beginning of Bereisheet (Genesis)! The reading of the yearly Torah cycle had come to an end, and a new one began. Hallelujah. The services lasted about three hours, as the men and women relished in the Word given to our people by God Himself through Moses — the most treasured Word in the world — the Torah (Five Books of Moses). In every synagogue across Israel this morning, the men joyfully danced around the bema, proudly holding the sacred Torah Scrolls. In our synagogue, there were 11 Torah Scrolls, and as the silver crowns were removed from the Holy Parchment Scrolls, they glistened in the sunlight. As the Rabbi and cantor sang from Holy Word of God, the whole congregation gathered in one accord singing in Hebrew Although we are still celebrating Simchat Torah here in Israel, elsewhere in the world this wonderful holiday begins at sunset tonight at the conclusion of Shemini Atzeret (Eighth Day of Assembly), a Biblically mandated assembly celebrated the day after Sukkot ends (Leviticus 23:36). Even with Covid-19 and wearing masks, tonight at around 7:30 p.m. people will gather in each city and village square throughout the Holy Land. Hopefully most of Israel's 6.8 million Jewish People will be rejoicing in the Word of God. For the second time in 24 hours they will dance around the Torah Scrolls, and this time, throughout the night. “Oh, how I love Your Torah; It is my meditation all the day. You through Your commandments, have made me wiser than my enemies. … Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” (Psalm 119:97–98, 105) On Simchat Torah, ALL of the ornately decorated Torah scrolls are taken out of the Ark in which they are safeguarded, in contrast to Shabbat and regular holidays when only two are removed from the Ark. Rob, in the country where you live, the Jewish People will parade these precious Torah scrolls around their synagogues in circles called "hakafot," accompanied by joyful singing and dancing. In some synagogues, the celebrations are spilling out of the sanctuary into the street, where participants dance and sing while carrying the scrolls.
What is Torah? This Hebrew word Torah is often translated in English Bibles as "Law;" however, this is a rather poor translation. The word torah comes from the roots yarah, which means to shoot, aim, or point to, and morah, meaning teacher. Therefore, the Torah is God’s instruction to His people. These instructions teach us how to live on this earth and point us to eternal life through Yeshua, who as the Word in flesh, perfectly embodied God's teachings. The Torah contains all the wisdom and instruction we need to live healthy, happy, successful, prosperous lives. Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the instructions [Torah] Moses gave you. Do not deviate from them, turning either to the right or to the left. Then you will be successful in everything you do.
Study this Book of Instruction [Sefer haTorah] continually. Meditate on it day and night so you will be sure to obey everything written in it. Only then will you prosper and succeed in all you do. (Joshua 1:7-8)
The Torah, in its strictest sense, includes the five books of Moses: Genesis (Bereisheet), Exodus (Shemot), Leviticus (Vayikra), Numbers (Bamidbar), and Deuteronomy (Devarim).
However, Yeshua (Jesus) and Paul both quoted from other books of the Bible, including the Psalms and the Prophets, and also called them Torah (law).
For instance, in John 10:34, Yeshua quotes Psalm 82:6 referring to it as the Torah: “Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your Law (Torah), I said, You are gods?” (John 10:34) In 1 Corinthians 14:21, Paul references the prophetic book of Isaiah, calling it the Law: “In the Law (Torah) it is written: ‘With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people.’” (1 Corinthians 14:21; compare to Isaiah 28:11) Another word for Torah often used by Jewish people is the Tanakh, which is a Hebrew name for all the books of the Jewish Scriptures. This word is actually an acronym (T-N-K) for Torah (Five Books of Moses), Nevi’im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings – Psalms, Proverbs, etc).
The word Torah comprises the first three letters of each of these words: T-N-K [Hebrew letters Tav, Nun, Kaf].
Orthodox Jews consider yet another compilation of writings as "Torah." This is the Talmud (which is comprised of the Mishnah, and Gemara), which are rabbinical interpretations and commentaries (oral laws) of the written Torah. They consider both to be the Torah because they believe that the “written Torah” cannot be understood completely without the interpretation of the “oral Torah.” Sadly enough, most Orthodox Jews consider the oral law of greater weight and authority than the written Torah and many spend the majority of their time and study in these rabbinical teachings.
Because Yeshua is the Word (John 1:1), He is the ultimate fulfillment of the Torah (God’s moral guidelines for mankind to live in righteousness). Some Believers in Yeshua think this means that the Torah is abolished. But Yeshua clearly taught that He did not come to abolish the Torah: "Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the Torah of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s Torah will disappear until its purpose is fulfilled. "So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s Torah and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven." (Matthew 5:17–19) As the Jewish People diligently study the Scriptures in the Torah as well as the prophets and other writings, trying to fulfill His teachings on their own, they miss the very essence of God's Word that they so desperately seek to learn and obey. Yeshua said, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me." (John 5:39) Almost 99% of the Jewish People still do not recognize Yeshua as the Messiah who is Himself the Torah.
Rob comments" Sadly 99% of Jews do not understand the 11 scrolls of the torah depict Yeshuah. I note " They consider both to be the Torah because they believe that the “written Torah” cannot be understood completely without the interpretation of the “oral Torah.” Sadly enough, most Orthodox Jews consider the oral law of greater weight and authority than the written Torah and many spend the majority of their time and study in these rabbinical teachings" Many Jews consider the traditions and precepts of men more important that the torah of Jesus. ------------------------------ Dave also has a different view on the death of Jesus and his soul (nephesh) poured out like water. " Yeshua was poured out like water, as described in the Messianic Psalm 22:14.
It was only after He poured out His soul to death that God poured out the rain of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) upon the earth (Acts 2:1–4).
Water is a powerful symbol in this hot, dry country of Israel, where it's easy to become dehydrated if we don't drink enough water.
Sadly, few realize that they are perishing without the water of the Spirit of God. These final days of Sukkot are the perfect time to consider Yeshua's invitation to come to Him when we are weary or full of sorrow, and to be refreshed by the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit). Rob comments" Ps 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Again Dave the Messanic Jewish emails state as I see it also, that Jesus poured out his soul unto death like water, so the sinner's soul can have eternal life, there is an exchange of one soul's living for another soul's living. Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, The principle of life for life is written here. ------------------------------------------------------ D" Scripture says – who can oppose God – no oneR" I thought sinning is an action that opposes God? Care to explain your difference? D" Cherub means the function of a - "guardian" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of Go's throne are gaurdian angels The Cherub at the gate to Eden - were Guardians of the Gate A King - of Tyre or anywhere - is the guardian of his people If Mom and Dad die - grandpa can become a guardian
R" And you don't play word games?? First the word "guardian" is not a Hebrew word. perhaps "guard" Eze 38:7 Be thou prepared and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard <mishmar> unto them. Mishmar? De 17:19 ...to keep <shamar> all the words <dabar> of this law <towrah> Shamar? perhaps the idea of guard? But no concept that I know of "guardian" in Hebrew? Than Dave says this " The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of Go's throne are gaurdian angels" I thought you said cherub are not angels, now you say guardian angels? D" Your word game of absolutes is just a game you play I say guardian - you say angel
R" And you don't play word games? So today we don't call my Mum and Dad, parents, we call them guardians? in fact due to this sex fluid stupidity we have to call them "significant carers". So who is playing the word games here? D" Just as it was for the Jew Just as it was for the Messianic Jew Just as it was for the First ChristiansR" In this post, I quote Messanic Jew writings that differ from your views Dave. ------------------------------------ You state the Rabbi Singer agrees with you, but Singer doesn't. So you say Signer is uninformed. But I posted " Satan is always opposed to God" A Singer statement. D" can Chuck Missler help from being a traditional Christian – with traditional Christian vocabulary?R" you dismiss some of SInger's ideas as He being deceived a little here and there... You state the satan in Job is a prosecutor I posted a thought God gave me on this but you didn't comment on it. The salvation process of God never requires a prosecutor because the sinner confesses to his sinning before the judge. Guilty I am O judge, the sinner says. The confession is all about admitting our guilt to a sin bearer, this offering is called chataah. One does not need a prosecutor, guilty as charged. Only wicked people need a prosecutor because they do nto admit they are sinning or breaking God's laws. SO your whole comments on Satan's purpose in Job is totally wrong. D" What is the difference between a covalent bond and an ionic bond – different magicR" Why are you difficult at times? What is magic Dave? A Satanic word in my view. God never uses magic. But God does powerful miracles that do not follow his natural principles of maths and laws, it's called a wonder in Hebrew. In fact God holds the entire atomic world together with His power. You call it ? I call it His wonder.D" There is zero science that teaches magic – science is the study of mechanismR" Really? What is the science of quantum physics Dave? It is the study of the wonder of God? Not something we can define or understand. What about the science of salvation? You assume salvation is not even a science... I suppose we had better define our terms first... what is science? knowledge? Hmm? Jesus was poured out like water. Water is a community substance with two male atoms and one female atoms, arranged in a certain angle as echad, one, Compound unity. A trinity if you will. The bonding is both covalent and ionic , how strange, the properties also weird. The female atom responds the the two male atoms, who function as providers of quantum bonding. They are one. And you consider water as one atom, ??; having three different expressions of the same thing? Science does not support your idea. What is the atom anyhow? Another wonder we cannot fathom. Water is a family simile. God is a family simile. But you ignore this idea of "family". You say this is polytheism, but when the Hydrogen and the Oxygen marry for eternity as water, they lose their independent personalities, and become echad, one. This is monotheism. The natural science clearly teaches this idea. Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Notice the KJV says the power of the Godhead, once bonding occurs the three atoms of wonder become one godhead. Natural science teaches this idea, but you refuse to acknowledge the science teacher. You say the woman is a expression of the man, made in each other's image. No. Physically a clone maybe, but in terms of loving, their loving style were different. So much science teaches us if we look closely. Water. a simile of mankind, and also a simile of God. God created mankind in their image. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 28, 2021 17:21:14 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong quoting other people's ideas, to help you witness. I have used a JW Epiglott to win over JW's in their publications. This is why our libraries have other books apart from the Scriptures. Agreed – a true student would investigate all the resources availableHowever – you and Don Patton prove beyond any shadow of doubt that you missrepreseny anothers work – to mock it – or discredit it in some wayDon Patton did topic after topicIs this where you get the authority to lie about another work?You miss-represented Scoreder to me for two years – at first I let it go – then tried to correct you – but to this day – you continue to misrepresent his words Dave like Jews do not see cherub as angelic beings :-BINGO – there ya go – you are pathological – quote me instead of putting words in my mouthCherub means the function of a - "guardian" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of Go's throne are gaurdian angels The Cherub at the gate to Eden - were Guardians of the Gate A King - of Tyre or anywhere - is the guardian of his people If Mom and Dad die - grandpa can become a guardian Well my understanding from reading Scripture is the cherub is an angel:- I quote for our Church Prophetess:-"The Great Hope (Condensed), p. 52.6 (Ellen Gould White)Precepts of men – and your girl is just repeating Catholic Doctrine – word for wordStop telling people you only listen to Torah – you just prove it is a lieNow Rob looks for some easy way in Scripture to link cherub to angelic beings:-Yes – you want to play a word game – I will stick to scriptureD" 2 Adam Clark - ...But what were these? They are utterly unknown. Rob find comments left out by Dave:"Adam Clarke on Gen 3:24 " Hence it is very likely that the cherubs, to whatever order of beings they belonged, were emblems of the ALL-MIGHTY, and were those creatures by whom he produced the great effects of his power." ManTherefore, the Torah is God’s instruction to His people. These instructions teach us how to live on this earth and point us to eternal life through Yeshua, who as the Word in flesh, perfectly embodied God's teachings. The Torah, in its strictest sense, includes the five books of Moses: Genesis (Bereisheet), Exodus (Shemot), Leviticus (Vayikra), Numbers (Bamidbar), and Deuteronomy (Devarim). However, Yeshua (Jesus) and Paul both quoted from other books of the Bible, including the Psalms and the Prophets, and also called them Torah (law). For instance, in John 10:34, Yeshua quotes Psalm 82:6 referring to it as the Torah: “Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your Law (Torah), I said, You are gods?” (John 10:34) In 1 Corinthians 14:21, Paul references the prophetic book of Isaiah, calling it the Law: “In the Law (Torah) it is written: ‘With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people.’” (1 Corinthians 14:21; compare to Isaiah 28:11)Correct – the Torah is not a Book Gen 26:5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Abraham kept God’s Torah long before the first scroll was ever writtenI HAVE ALWAYS SAID THIS------------------------------ Dave also has a different view on the death of Jesus and his soul (nephesh) poured out like water.Again Dave the Messanic Jewish emails state as I see it also, that Jesus poured out his soul unto death like water, so the sinner's soul can have eternal life, there is an exchange of one soul's living for another soul's living. Robert teaches that his satan was able to kill God on the cross Or he teaches that Christ was not God incarnate Either teaching is in conflict with mainstream Judeo-ChristianityChristianity teaches that the Soul of Christ – was poured out of the Body and returned to God just as Jesus is quoted as saying upon the cross Christianity then teaches that Christ went to save those that died at the time of the Flood of Noah Just as the disciple Peter tell is in scripture Robert says this is impossible – because Jesus was deadWho was it that retuned at the resurrection if you Christ is dead – extinguished for ever ------------------------------------------------------ D"Scripture says – who can oppose God – no oneR" I thought sinning is an action that opposes God? Care to explain your difference?Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained. Isa 14:27 For Jehovah of hosts hath purposed, and who shall annul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? D"Scripture says – who can oppose God – no oneRobert has an entire religion based on the fact his evil god satan can and does oppose God Which is contradictory to scripture - so he has to start denying scripture to keep his doctrine trueOnly wicked people need a prosecutor because they do nto admit they are sinning or breaking God's laws. SO your whole comments on Satan's purpose in Job is totally wrong.STOP MISSREPRESENTING ME!- engage in a serious dicussionSorry Robert – Hebrew satan being a prosecutor is in Zec 3 In the Book of Job – Hebrew satan is just a servant of the Lord – helping to facilitate God’s WillYou present scripture as honestly as you present other peoples work It only damages your credibilityD"There is zero science that teaches magic – science is the study of mechanism R" Really? What is the science of quantum physics Dave? It is the study of the wonder of God? Not something we can define or understand. And yet three main quantum theories exist to describe MECHANISMString Theory says the universe is composed of tiny vibrating strings - rememinse of the Big Bag that yeilded that energy - and if you fracture those strings into smaller and smaller fractions they seem to dissappear These disappearing fragmants violated te best theory og the day These dissappearing fragments violate the laws of thermo-dynamics E can not be created ot destroyed - only translated ot tranmuted String Theory andwers this with a 17th Century math problem - very old math - drug out of an old book that solves the question of how and where this missing E goes - it leaves our D and enters another D The Best Science mechanism today says - all of reality is built upon the non-thing E You must deny thisand there are 10D of space and 1 D of timeYou must deny this as wellFor us the math is E=mc2 String Theory says E=(10D)(10c2) Reality is so much larger than you can imagineThe 10D of String Theory fits perfectly with Multidimensionality and scripture 1D - is a singularity - that cannot be located or measured - and contains all E omnipotence and omniscient 2D - is the 1D spread out - expressed - expaned - the ether / matrix/ medium of all treality (HS) Spirit/spiritual 3D - is the First expressed through the Second (Chirist) and our phsyical reality Trinity - the word is - the word was with God (HS) - the word is God (Christ) threw whom all things were created But this must be far to complex for you to understand
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 4:51:07 GMT -5
D" However – you and Don Patton prove beyond any shadow of doubt that you missrepreseny anothers work – to mock it – or discredit it in some wayR" If that were true, why do the evolutionists present the rapid burial of fossils, and than speak of the fossils also being a million years old? How can one rationalize these two times correctly? Where does the million years come from? Between the layers? The evidence is not there? When the flood happened there are many layers totalling over 3,000 metres thick, with hundreds of sediment rock layer on top of each other. Similar to Mt Helens that blew, 100 metres of sediment with dozens of layers between. Similar to plane buried in snow in Greenland, 60 metres of ice and snow, with dozens of layers between. No hint of lots of time between the layers in these examples. All rapid catastrophic events. Rapid. You speak of relativistic time. When the clock on earth moves slower than a clock in a plane travelling fast, it does not mean the clock on earth is older in age. Both clock have aged the same , it's just one clock appeared slower than the other, because time is not an absolute, it's based on motion. Just because dinosaurs and humans lived together does not make them both living for a million years, sure the clock time might indicate that, but the movement of yom events was just the same as our is today. In rough terms both dinosaurs and humans lived probably a few hundred years. So the evolutions assume the dinosaur was buried for a million years. This is false also, because the Scriptures tell us that man has not been around that long. My problem with you Dave, is you cannot marry evolution events of order, even with Creation events of order, why would you want to anyhow?, just too witness to others, how close both theories are? Many say I am old, but I am technically always 3 months in age, my protein is rebuilt all over the body every 3 months or so, so why do I look old when I am young? Mutation mistakes, DNA errors in protein folding, etc. As you say time is not linear and cannot be considered. I agree with you on this. Your papers try to marry Creation order to Evolution assumptions of the past. Man get's assumptions wrong. Why must we know the details anyhow? Your papers do not make it easier to believe in God's creation? They are fine papers, but beleivers have to see GOD through faith, and not all things are clearly known. SO why do evolutionists push this old time thing myth? because they want time to be the hero, the Creator of all living things, instead of GOD. But we know better. This is what Patton is fighting, the idea that time is a hero, a Creator of living systems, is false. --------------------------------- D" BINGO – there ya go – you are pathological – quote me instead of putting words in my mouthR" OH so now you agree that cherub is an angel, only the function of a guardian angel? You want to quote you? Dave says , I quote" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of Go's throne are gaurdian angels So why are you fighting me if cherub is a guardian angel? Now you agree? D" you want to play a word game – I will stick to scriptureR" I thought Scripture is made of words, each with Scripture defined meaning? What is a word game Dave? D "Robert teaches that his satan was able to kill God on the crossR" what are you saying now Dave? I quote your Messanic Jews back to you " Yeshua was poured out like water, as described in the Messianic Psalm 22:14. It was only after He poured out His soul to death that God poured out the rain of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) upon the earth (Acts 2:1–4)." Now you tell me what they are saying? Death means kill does it not? You can leave out the word satan, because I never said that, you misquote me all the time. Now try to argue against your Messanic jews words here? D" Robert has an entire religion based on the fact his evil god satan can and does oppose God Which is contradictory to scripture.R" so your Rabbi SInger is wrong? Again I quote your words " D" I have great respect for Chuck Misler - his presentation of satanSatan is always opposed to God. A direct quote from Chuck Missler. You say He is not all informed ? that's your answer... D" Sorry Robert – Hebrew satan being a prosecutor is in Zec 3R" Look carefully Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (1) Joshua the high priest has all the sins confessed to a yeshua in heaven for the day of atonement A prosecutor's role is not required for salvation. (2) Joshua is a type of Jesus. Jesus saves who He wants to save, the wicked ones who confess their guilt to Jesus personally, hence a prosecutor is not necessary. (3) Jersaleum is a holy city plucked from the fires of God, Satan is not a person of fire, not even a place of fire. In fact Satan has no function role with God at all. What is satan than? an opposer, an accuser of the brethren, the KJV says. satan opposes salvation. Or Satan opposes Jesus. So does a judge require a prosecutor when the person charged pleads guilty? NoD" In the Book of Job – Hebrew satan is just a servant of the Lord – helping to facilitate God’s WillR" No, the opposer even opposes God's declaration of Job, who was perfect. Is this not true? Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? I read this as Satan opposes God's declaration of Job? Is this true? How do you see this verse Dave? D" You present scripture as honestly as you present other peoples work It only damages your credibilityR" I do? DAVE " Your word game of absolutes is just a game you play I say guardian - you say angelR" so what are you doing here Dave? Than you say Sep 28, 2021 at 2:30am Dave said: Cherub means the function of a - "guardian" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of God's throne are gaurdian angelsR" SO now you say cherubs are guardian angels. Where as without the details, being child like, I say cherubs are angels. So who is playing word games here? you are. So do you agree with me Dave that cherubs are guardian angels? So if the cherub is a guardian angel, the cherub must be an angel as well? Do you agree with this idea Dave? D" And yet three main quantum theories exist to describe MECHANISMR" Dave as interesting as theories are, I do not pretend to know God's ways. Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. D" But this must be far to complex for you to understandR" It must be for you, because I said the two male Hydrogen atoms leave their independent personalities and marry the one oxygen female atom, making water, a compound unity that is a simile of the family of God. I also said their independent atomic personalities vanish when they bond to become water, an elohiym power, with a new overall personalities of love, this is NOT polytheism, but monotheism. I posted this, but no comment from you, simple chemistry and physics, but you posted quantum string theory and other complex ideas. This picture of God must be too difficult for you to fathom. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 30, 2021 8:48:48 GMT -5
D"However – you and Don Patton prove beyond any shadow of doubt that you missrepreseny anothers work – to mock it – or discredit it in some way R" If that were true, why do the evolutionists present the rapid burial of fossils,Yes Robert – the fossilization process requires the living thing to be buried somehowand than speak of the fossils also being a million years old? The timeline is a statement of order – dating it scientifically places it in its proper orderHow can one rationalize these two times correctly?Time is a false argument – Order is the correct argument All you have to argue is time - Where does the million years come from? Between the layers? The evidence is not there?Time is a false argument – Order is the correct argument All you have to argue is time –When the flood happened there are many layers totalling over 3,000 metres thick, with hundreds of sediment rock layer on top of each other.If you say so – multiple layers from a global flood event – OK The Siberian Traps alone could have covered the entire earth in lava 10 feet thickSimilar to Mt Helens that blew, 100 metres of sediment with dozens of layers between.Academic Honesty – (google) Ash and pumice piled 6 miles (9.7 km) northeast of the volcano to a thickness of 3 feet (0.9 m); 50 miles (80 km) away, the ash was 2 inches (5 cm) deep.Can you help yourself from presenting lies as fact? And each layer represents an eruptive event – a puffCan you help yourself from presenting lies as fact? Where do you get your information - Don Patton - The Creation Institute? Or do you just make it up as you go along?Why are you so missled? Who has taught you to repeat these lies? Why do you need to lie to defend your point of view? What is honest - or Christian - about presenting lies as fact. How does presenting lies help your witness for the Lord? How does presenting lies bring Glory to God - Christian? If I know you are in the habit of presenting lies as fact (commentary on the modern church and creation extremist) How do you expect me to believe your are present the truth when you witness scripture to me? Similar to plane buried in snow in Greenland, 60 metres of ice and snow, with dozens of layers between.Each layer represents a snow fall event – or a winter season (actually - my observation here living in the snow = each layer = a melt event It snows - all the snow is fuffy The sun comes out and the snowfall reduces - as it melts - the surface become crunchy If it snows again - that crunchy layers is still visible in a cross section repeat - new layer - repeate new layer - all winter long)No hint of lots of time between the layers in these examples. Happening one at a time – once a snow fall or season = layering 1 snow fall makes 1 layer - not ,many 1 volcanic puff = one layer – not manyThis image is from Denmark - but there is a similuar formation here in Colorado Puzzel - how did stiff rock bend so fluidly? It didn't bend - these layers were laid down in a small valley - or over a small hump Here in Colorado each dark layer = volcanic ash from 29 Mile Mountain Each lighter colored layer on top = mud - secondary to the volcanic eruption followed by ash layer and secondary mud - then ash layer and secondary mud As 29 Mile Mountain destroyed itself As you travel across Colorado - it it one mountain after another - but in Hartsel Colorado you are in the middle of an amazingly flat meadow that is about 15 miles in diameter. The monumant in the middle of town says - you are now staning in the peak of 29 Mile Mountain - because you are in the center of the remaining Caldera crater as the largest volcano in Colorado blew it self apart. Science say it took a long time to generate all the layers Time is a stupid argument All the layers indicate is that it happened in many different spurts of ash and mud How long was it? Time is not the correct argument Mt St Hellens - we speak of it as if it was one singular event www.fs.usda.gov/pnw/page/mount-st-helens-frequently-asked-questionsOn the morning of May 18, 1980, after weeks of small tremors, a magnitude 5.1 earthquake shook beneath Mount St. Helens and triggered an enormous eruption. The eruption involved a complex series of events that unfolded over the next 12 hours, with many events going on simultaneously. These volcanic events buried some areas in debris avalanches and mudflows, scoured other areas with hot gases, blew down or scorched forests on slopes several miles away, and dusted forests farther away with volcanic ash. The collapse of the north side was just one major event amoungst many events occuring over time weeks - 12 hours of hell- followed by Ash from the eruption fell on Northwest cities and towns like snow and drifted around the globe for two weeks. Not one singular event - but a series of events = layering You speak of relativistic time. When the clock on earth moves slower than a clock in a plane travelling fast, it does not mean the clock on earth is older in age. NO IT DOESN’T – it means one is moving fasterPlease try to stick to the factsJust because dinosaurs and humans lived together does not make them both living for a million years, Time is not linear – do you have a valid argument?ahl says – time is different depending on your perspective agl says – time is different depending on your perspective science says – scripture is validated – time is different depending on your perspective Schroeder says - two time scales - two clanadars - man's time - and Bible time (I call it God's time)Time is not linear – do you have a valid argument? You say you respect Schroeder - but you disagree with himMy problem with you Dave, is you cannot marry evolution events of order, even with Creation events of order, why would you want to anyhow?, Why would anyone want to validate scripture to his fellow man Why would any Christian want to show all those evolutionist that they really believe scripture Why would any Christian want to witness God’s Glory to another You say you are a Christian – and you ask why should we witness the truth? Just exactly what is Christian about your SDA Teaching?Why would anyone want to validate scripture to his fellow manIs a sataninic teaching - it is ant-Christ teachingBECAUSE IT IS NOT A NT CHRISIAN TEACHING or an OT JEWISH TEACHING As you say time is not linear and cannot be considered. I agree with you on this. And yet – time is your only argument – over and over You say one thing and continue to do another Your papers try to marry Creation order to Evolution assumptions of the past.My paper points out that correct science is not in disagreement with the order expressed in Genesis chpt 1 – you do not want to see it – because then you would have nothing to attackSO why do evolutionists push this old time thing myth? Becaue radiometric time measurements are based upon 2 false assumptions The amount of isotope available today is the same as yesterday And the earth has always been the same diameterRadiometric dating IS NOT a measure of time - IT IS a maeasure of volume In the past - earth WAS NOT geometrically older - IT WAS geometrically larger--------------------------------- D"BINGO – there ya go – you are pathological – quote me instead of putting words in my mouthR" OH so now you agree that cherub is an angel, only the function of a guardian angel?D"BINGO – there ya go – you are pathological – quote me instead of putting words in my mouthDave like Jews do not see cherub as angelic beings :-BINGO – there ya go – you are pathological – quote me instead of putting words in my mouthCherub means the function of a - "guardian" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of Go's throne are gaurdian angels The Cherub at the gate to Eden - were Guardians of the Gate A King - of Tyre or anywhere - is the guardian of his people If Mom and Dad die - grandpa can become a guardian (google) What is the Archangel Michael known for? Michael the Archangel, in the Bible and in the Qurʾān (as Mīkāl), one of the archangels. He is repeatedly depicted as the “great captain,” the leader of the heavenly hosts, and the warrior helping the children of Israel. Robert demands – that every time you see the word warrior it means the angel Michael Warrior always means – can only mean – the angel MichaelGuardian cannot be a King – cannot be another man – Robert demand that the word guardian means only an angelWhy isn’t Jesus a stick? Word man – He is the Branch – is he made of wood?YOUR WORD GAME FAILS YOUSo why are you fighting me if cherub is a guardian angel? Now you agree?You are pathological – are you capable of having a serious discussion or not?What is a word game Dave?Your pretend ignorance is not becoming or cute – it is insulting!The verb - to make or establish - means that satan rule all mankind The term guardian - means only an angel The word archon cannot mean a govenor - or authority - it can only mean in the begining The word WORD cannot mean God if it means Christ - they are two different independent and individual gods ruawach cannot mean spirit - it only means the Holy Spirit Man cannot have a spirit because ruawach only means Holy Spirit God cannot be spirit - because spirit means the Holy Spirit and that is a different individual and independed god satan cannot be a prosecutor because the word means oppoing God satan always opposes God - except when he obeys God - buy you refuse to answer what it is a sin to obey God - how is it in opposition to God to obey God Radiometric dating is flawed - but science time is your only argument It is impossible for love to be unrequited - there must be two or more gods to exist so love can be reciprical. Anything from the Zohar is bad - anything from Jewish Kabbalah is error - but you respect Schroeder and Eistein for repeated it - and critisize me for knowing about it There can no truth in it - you say Enoch must be error - zero truth in Enoch - yet I still have not recieved a picture of your deleting those 64 verses from your KJV The Tanak was the Jewish Bible at the time of Christ - complete and whole Your recieved text is Hebrew Tanak - it is the Greek LXX Your recieved text is the one and only approved Bible by God - Sorry - only Rome Roman Christiaity is the only Christianity and all of scripture is only about <.01% of the world's population cornered only in ancient Canaan You totally ignore that God is the creator and father of the whole world - all of the 100% You and your catholic friends teach that all those other god's of the ahl are myth You and your catholic friends teach that Eph 6:12 is error - no such thing as a Prinicipality You and your catholic friends say your satan is responsible for all the ra - scripture says God made the tov and the ra You and your catholic friends say your satan is responsible for all the demons - scripture says they wer all made by God for God You teach evolution - satan begans as a good angel then evolved into a bad angels - by his own power - but you say you denty evolution You say you deny evolution - but thing changed and adapted by natural selection just as Darwin says What is a word game Dave?Your pretend ignorance is not becoming or cute – it is insulting!D"Robert teaches that his satan was able to kill God on the cross R" what are you saying now Dave?You teach that the soul – the spirit – the essence of Christ was extinguished / murdered / killed / put to death – you teach that Jesus poured out his soul and died like any animal. You deny that Christ commended His spirit to the Lord contrary to scripture. You deny that Christ went in spirit and preached to the dead from them time of the Flood.Are you now denying that you deny? This is so helpful! Please pick a theology and stick with it I quote your Messanic Jews back to you "Yeshua was poured out like water, as described in the Messianic Psalm 22:14. It was only after He poured out His soul to death that God poured out the rain of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) upon the earth (Acts 2:1–4)." Now you tell me what they are saying? Death means kill does it not?You teach that Jesus poured out his soul and died like any animal. You deny that Christ commended His spirit to the Lord contrary to scripture. You deny that Christ went in spirit and preached to the dead from them time of the Flood. Are you now denying that you deny? This is so helpful! Please pick a theology and stick with itYou can leave out the word satan, because I never said that, you misquote me all the time. Now try to argue against your Messanic jews words here?OK – your satan force man’s to kill your god Christ because your satan rules man D"Robert has an entire religion based on the fact his evil god satan can and does oppose God Which is contradictory to scripture. R" so your Rabbi SInger is wrong?Or your entire religion is built upon satan and satanologyD"You present scripture as honestly as you present other peoples work It only damages your credibilityR" I do?It is the Tree of Good and Evil The prosecutor in Job is there to accuse Christ The serpent of Gen 3 is a biological creature – but you say your satan is an angel Scripture says who can oppose God – No One – you have an entire religion built around your satan opposing GodSep 28, 2021 at 2:30am Dave said: Cherub means the function of a - "guardian" The Cherub angels at the 4 corners (archon) of God's throne are gaurdian angels R" SO now you say cherubs are guardian angels. DUH – ARRRRRRG! – How can you possibly be serious? You are pretending to play a game with me! Academic Honesty – you have a problem with the truth – you are pathological
Yes there were guardian angels around the throne – there were cherub angels around the throne Michael was a warrior So you say every time we see the word warrior it means the Angel Michael Branch means Christ – so Jesus Christ must have been a stick Where as without the details, being child like, I say cherubs are angels. So who is playing word games here? you are.YEP – Jesus is a stick – and warrior always means the angel MichaelIF the word guardian only means an angel in heaven Then God Commanded man to violate the 10 Commandments in Exo 25 - NO GRAVEN IMAGES OF ANYTHING IN HEAVEN Cherunb are guardians - and the wings / arms / love of a guardians covers
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 14:59:05 GMT -5
RP" Similar to Mt Helens that blew, 100 metres of sediment with dozens of layers between.D" Academic Honesty – (google) Ash and pumice piled 6 miles (9.7 km) northeast of the volcano to a thickness of 3 feet (0.9 m); 50 miles (80 km) away, the ash was 2 inches (5 cm) deep. Can you help yourself from presenting lies as fact? And each layer represents an eruptive event – a puffR" Seriously Dave you owe me and Don Patton an anology. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_eruption_of_Mount_St._HelensNow read this general link carefully:- The landslide, the largest in recorded history, traveled at 110 to 155 mph (177 to 249 km/h) and moved across Spirit Lake's west arm. Part of it hit a 1,150 ft-high (350 m) ridge about 6 mi (10 km) north.[9] Some of the slide spilled over the ridge, but most of it moved 13 mi (21 km) down the North Fork Toutle River, filling its valley up to 600 feet (180 m) deep with avalanche debris.[30] An area of about 24 sq mi (62 km2) was covered, and the total volume of the deposit was about 0.7 cu mi (2.9 km3).[9]
Most of St. Helens' former north side became a rubble deposit 17 mi (27 km) long, averaging 150 ft (46 m) thick; the slide was thickest at 1 mi (1.6 km) below Spirit Lake and thinnest at its western margin.[9] The resulting blast directed the pyroclastic flow laterally. It consisted of very hot volcanic gases, ash, and pumice formed from new lava, as well as pulverized old rock, which hugged the ground. Initially moving about 220 mph (350 km/h), the blast quickly accelerated to around 670 mph (1,080 km/h), and it may have briefly passed the speed of sound.[9][30] In total, Mount St. Helens released 24 megatons of thermal energy, seven of which were a direct result of the blast. This is equivalent to 1,600 times the size of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.[46]
A third dome began to form within 30 minutes after the final explosion on October 18, and within a few days, it was about 900 ft (270 m) wide and 130 ft (40 m) high
Depth of deposit: Buried North Fork Toutle River to average depth of 150 ft (46 m) with a maximum depth of 600 ft (183 m)
Volume and depth:
(volume based on uncompacted deposits) 0.029 cu mi (0.12 km3); multiple flows 3 to 30 ft (1 to 9 m) thick; cumulative depth of deposits reached 120 ft (37 m) in places
RP"N o hint of lots of time between the layers in these examples.D" Happening one at a time – once a snow fall or season = layeringR" So are you agreeing with me now? D" Science say it took a long time to generate all the layers Time is a stupid argument All the layers indicate is that it happened in many different spurts of ash and mud How long was it? Time is not the correct argument Mt St Hellens - we speak of it as if it was one singular eventR" SO are you agreeing with me now or not? D" NO IT DOESN’T – it means one is moving faster Please try to stick to the factsR" I do stick to the facts, so if the two clocks have not aged any differently, why than does science say they are millions of years apart in time? This is why I do not like evolution and there premise that time is the hero of the plot. Time is not a Creator. Only God is our Creator. Do you agree with this idea. You never say so plainly. D"S chroeder says - two time scales - two calandars - man's time - and Bible time (I call it God's time) Time is not linear – do you have a valid argument? You say you respect Schroeder - but you disagree with himR" I have never said I disagreed with Schroeder, even if you point out he uses the Kabbalah at times? D"W hy would any Christian want to show all those evolutionist that they really believe scriptureR" Dave, evolutionists do not believe in the Scripture, or the order of natural progress as the Scripture presents. Evolutionists use only nature, random chance to make things happen, physical laws, and time (lots of time) is the hero of the plot, the creator if you will. They do not allow a divine foot in the door. (I quote from their books, and assume Don Patton shows the evolution statements correctly as a quote) In the Biblical account of Creations, the progress of events is ordered by Jesus words, as his words flow, the progress flows according to His words. I do not see any natural events following natural laws and God waiting for those natural events to occur at some Incremental Speed. If you want to evaluate how Creation works have a look at how Jesus spoke sick humans into wellness, simply by speaking His words. Did the sick person get well gradually using natural laws? No, it was rapid, a wonder, and the miracles happened rapidly. D "And yet – time is your only argument – over and overR" Have you never read Evolution books Dave. That is their argument, over and over, not mine. I am a Creationist and I believe Jesus called the granite rocks into existence is just under a few milliseconds of time to lock the isotopes in the zircon crystals (See robert Gantry's work) D" Radiometric dating IS NOT a measure of time - IT IS a maeasure of volume In the past - earth WAS NOT geometrically older - IT WAS geometrically largerR" Not sure what you mean. Explain. If you present a new idea, why do you not explain yourself? To me, radioactive is a process, not a decay event based on time, but based on processes within and around the atoms. Hence when Mt Helens erupted, some radioactive stuff decayed rapidly, ( the blast quickly accelerated to around 670 mph (1,080 km/h), and it may have briefly passed the speed of sound.[9][30] In total, Mount St. Helens released 24 megatons of thermal energy, seven of which were a direct result of the blast. This is equivalent to 1,600 times the size of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.[46]) causing the atoms to decay rapidly, nothing to do with time decay gradually, hence the rock layer upon testing were found to be millions of years old, rather than decades old. Nothing to do with your volume idea?? Not sure? D" Why isn’t Jesus a stick? Word man – He is the Branch – is he made of wood? YOUR WORD GAME FAILS YOUR" I have asked you is the word cherub a guardian angel, and all I get from you is emotional blurb D" BINGO – there ya go – you are pathological R" How about just answering my question? Instead you get emotional? RP" So why are you fighting me if cherub is a guardian angel? Now you agree?D" You are pathological – are you capable of having a serious discussion or not?R" How about just simply saying what you support? What is a cherub? If the cherub is truly unknown and nothing is known, than the messengers from heaven are also unknown and anything unknown cannot be spoken about. What is a word game Dave? D Your pretend ignorance is not becoming or cute – it is insulting!R" So in the Hebrew language, words have multiple meanings when translated into English, why not as Jeff Benner shows one English word can be placed for each Hebrew word mechanically every time perfectly. It is possible. It's not a word game. Maybe a translation game. But surely the word cherub must mean some word in English? You say it mean "guardian, a function", I say cherub means "Angel" a creature kind. I have not considered the functions of the cherub, but than you say the cherub angels are guarding the throne of God, hence you combine the function with my term for the creature kind, and now you still disgree? So how about explaining yourself? D The term guardian - means only an angelR There you go, nit picking. "guardian is a function of cherub" yes. I am not saying guardian means an angel. noThere are many verses or so on cherub, a word that means in English (angel), and some of those verses refer to the cherub/angels as guardian, doing the function of guarding something. In English we have an adjective/noun construct, hence guardian angel. Hebrew is not like this. Hebrew has only nouns, which are verbs techically, completed actions. We assume the hebrew contruct of noun-noun, is something. A scholar opinion. But details aside Dave, what confusion are you saying? Can't you make simple statements, like I do? If you follow the world, they add confusion to the reading of Scripture: " The Hebrew word for angel is " malach, " which means messenger, for the angels are G‑d's messengers to perform various missions."' So why don't they simply use the word "messenger" for malak all the time? And what English word do they use for "cherub" ? www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htmThere is so much garbarge written here, is this all Jewish ideas? Surely not? (1) angels programmed (2) angels have different intellictual status before God (3) some angels vanish after their tasks are finished (4) humans who fail to do commandments get bad angels? (5) angels rush to sing at certain times of the day (6) human souls are greater than angels (7) Furthermore, angels have no free-choice and are pre-programmed to serve G‑d, (8) angels who "trapped" in a consistent level of spiritual consciousness. Rabbi VIDEO on do Angels ... "book of Daniel, vision of awesome being with powerful voice, I saw this vision, The people with me didn't see it, but overcome with fear. Talmud answers their repesentative angels saw it, a spiritual counterpart, watches over individual. Your angel saw something you could not see, and spoke it into your soul, the spirit within, receives this email message, so you react in a certain manner". Enough listening. Where do Jews get all this weird stuff from? Certainly not the 11 scrolls they term the torah. ------------------------------------------- D The word archon cannot mean a govenor - or authority - it can only mean in the beginingR learned since Greek archon, means "ruler". D The word WORD cannot mean God if it means Christ - they are two different independent and individual godsR I quote the Messanic writers" Where Is Yeshua (Jesus) in Creation? “In the beginning God [Elohim] created [barah] the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1) While El is the singular form of God, the im ending of Elohim indicates plurality. This doesn’t mean that there are many Gods creating the earth, but it does indicate that the nature of God involves a plurality as well as unity." And "However, in Genesis 1:22 and 3:22, the identity of this one person is clearly a plurality of some kind: “Let us make man [Adam] in our image, after our likeness.” (Genesis 1:26) “The man has now become like one of us.” (Genesis 3:22) Who is in the "us"? In the first verses of Genesis, we see God (Elohim) as Creator, and the Spirit (Ruach) of God is hovering (breathing) over the waters. But where is Yeshua (Jesus)? The Apostle John tells us that Yeshua was not only "with God" but He accomplished His work as the Word of God itself: “In the beginning [Bereisheet] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made, that was made… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us….” (John 1:1-3, 14)" One reason we know this is because even though Elohim is plural, the Hebrew verb barah (created) is singular. If more than one person was involved in the act of creation, the verb would be plural — baroo and not barah. Rob, so this plurality thing they speak of, where is Yeshua thing? SOunds like they see a family creating but only one member of that family does the speaking? Is this correct Messanic message here? Y/N? D" ruawach cannot mean spirit - it only means the Holy SpiritR" technically " medium", the common medium in context is the HS administrating the power flow of God. D" Man cannot have a spirit because ruawach only means Holy SpiritR" misquote me, what about "nashamah" also used with "ruwach" in breath of life? D" God cannot be spirit - because spirit means the Holy Spirit and that is a different individual and independed godR" the reference you speak of is a hebrew construct "elohim ruwach" meaning what in English? "Ruwach elohiym" is translated "spirit of God" but "elohim ruwach" is translated "god is spirit", is this fair in grammar rules? I would translate it as elohiym's spirit. D" satan cannot be a prosecutor because the word means opposing GodR salvation and confession of guilt does not ever require a prosecutor in court, so you invented term is meaningless, satan is opposing God's declaration that Job was saved. That is an accuser. D" satan always opposes God - except when he obeys God - buy you refuse to answer what it is a sin to obey God - how is it in opposition to God to obey GodR" No verse that says Satan obeys God, you apply context, word game, sure the opposer has respect for the almighty, and once the almighty asked for a lying medium to go to Ahab. D" Radiometric dating is flawed - but science time is your only argumentR" yes I agree Radiometric dating is flawed D" It is impossible for love to be unrequited - there must be two or more gods to exist so love can be reciprical.R" I quote" Is there any evidence that Unrequited Love Hurts? This might not help you much, but there is evidence that unrequited love hurts the person who is loved as well as the one who is doing the loving. In a study of more than 200 incidents of unrequited love, Baumeister found that rejecters suffered from guilt and anxiety and often reported feeling like they were victims." God hurts when people fail to respond to His providing. Therefore love must include one who is responding, and this implies a community. Therefore a single cardinal one god is NOT capable of love or loving, as unrequited love hurts himself. And loving creation or robotic creatures is not really a responder responding... God saw Adam became lonely. God would be lonely too if on his own. You don't get this idea.D" Anything from the Zohar is bad - anything from Jewish Kabbalah is error - but you respect Schroeder and Eistein for repeated it - and critisize me for knowing about it There can no truth in it - you sayR" To the torah we are told, not the commands and opinions of men and science ideas. That is what the 11 scrolls of the torah says. D" Enoch must be error - zero truth in Enoch - yet I still have not recieved a picture of your deleting those 64 verses from your KJVR" It takes only one error to make another book or scroll fail to be inspired. Again I follow the torah teachings. D" The Tanak was the Jewish Bible at the time of Christ - complete and wholeR" Can you prove this idea? The Messanic writers say the 11 scrolls are the torah, not the additional books of the tanak. D" Your recieved text is Hebrew Tanak - it is the Greek LXX Your recieved text is the one and only approved Bible by God - Sorry - only RomeR" I posted the Messanic writers who say the 11 scolls of the torah are torah, not other books. " In the days of Yeshua, a method of studying known as havruta became the preferred way to understand the Torah (first five books of the Bible) and the whole Tanakh (Old Testament) as well as the oral traditions." "The services lasted about three hours, as the men and women relished in the Word given to our people by God Himself through Moses — the most treasured Word in the world — the Torah (Five Books of Moses). In every synagogue across Israel this morning, the men joyfully danced around the bema, proudly holding the sacred Torah Scrolls. In our synagogue, there were 11 Torah Scrolls, and as the silver crowns were removed from the Holy Parchment Scrolls, they glistened in the sunlight. As the Rabbi and cantor sang from Holy Word of God, the whole congregation gathered in one accord singing in Hebrew."
"Even with Covid-19 and wearing masks, tonight at around 7:30 p.m. people will gather in each city and village square throughout the Holy Land. Hopefully most of Israel's 6.8 million Jewish People will be rejoicing in the Word of God. For the second time in 24 hours they will dance around the Torah Scrolls, and this time, throughout the night. “Oh, how I love Your Torah; It is my meditation all the day. You through Your commandments, have made me wiser than my enemies. … Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” (Psalm 119:97–98, 105) On Simchat Torah, ALL of the ornately decorated Torah scrolls are taken out of the Ark in which they are safeguarded, in contrast to Shabbat and regular holidays when only two are removed from the Ark. Rob, in the country where you live, the Jewish People will parade these precious Torah scrolls around their synagogues in circles called "hakafot," accompanied by joyful singing and dancing." How about supporting your Messanic writers Dave, 11 scrolls of the torah. Additionally some Orthodox Jews add a broader tanak, sadly 99% of Jews do not support Yeshua. D" Roman Christiaity is the only Christianity and all of scripture is only about <.01% of the world's population cornered only in ancient Canaan You totally ignore that God is the creator and father of the whole world - all of the 100% You and your catholic friends teach that all those other god's of the ahl are myth You and your catholic friends teach that Eph 6:12 is error - no such thing as a PrinicipalityR" I do not follow Roman Catholic ideas. D" You and your catholic friends say your satan is responsible for all the ra - scripture says God made the tov and the raR" It says God creates the RA, not made the ra. Ra on it's own cannot exist unless God creates it, alien to God normally, God normally does not tolerate sin or the fruit of sin. D" You and your catholic friends say your satan is responsible for all the demons - scripture says they wer all made by God for GodR" Scripture says the devil was a murder and a liar, not made by God, became a sinner...but your Jews say the angels do not have free will... how about that? Where in the 11 scrolls does this idea come from? D" You teach evolution - satan begans as a good angel then evolved into a bad angels - by his own power - but you say you denty evolutionR" I do not teach evolution, why do you say this? D" You say you deny evolution - but thing changed and adapted by natural selection just as Darwin saysR" Animals that adapt to a changing world is a Creation idea, written and published long before Darwin existed. Get your facts right Dave, D" What is a word game Dave? Your pretend ignorance is not becoming or cute – it is insulting!R" You have to stop misquoting me. -------------------------- I quote your Messanic Jews back to you
"Yeshua was poured out like water, as described in the Messianic Psalm 22:14. It was only after He poured out His soul to death that God poured out the rain of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) upon the earth (Acts 2:1–4)." Now you tell me what they are saying? Death means kill does it not?D" You teach that Jesus poured out his soul and died like any animal. You deny that Christ commended His spirit to the Lord contrary to scripture. You deny that Christ went in spirit and preached to the dead from them time of the Flood. D"Please pick a theology and stick with itR" Yes "Please pick a theology and stick with it" instead your reply does not respond to the Messanic writings I posted for you. DO you agree with this Messanic writing or not?
D "Yes there were guardian angels around the throne – there were cherub angels around the throneR" You use the term guardian as an adjective I see, a function. OK what and who are angels than? Provide Hebrew verses showing the creation of the term angels? www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htmTHis link is useless, what are angels? no malak , that is a function, messenger. Where does Scripture say angels are created? www.myjewishlearning.com/article/angels/The Hebrew word for angel, mal’ach, means messenger, and the angels in early biblical sources deliver specific information or carry out some particular function. A parallel vision is recorded in the 10th chapter, only there the angels are described as cherubs. The Midrash identifies Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael as the four chief angels who surround the divine throne, each of whom has particular attributes.
The Midrash includes many fanciful portrayals of angels. According to one source, Michael is made entirely of snow and Gabriel entirely of fire, but despite their proximity they don’t harm one another — a symbol of God’s power to make peace in his lofty heights.
The Talmud records a teaching that two ministering angels — one good and one evil — accompany a person home from synagogue on Shabbat evening. If they find the person’s home prepared for Shabbat, the good angel declares: “May it be Your will that it shall be like this for another Shabbat.” And the evil angel answers against his will: “Amen.” If the home is not prepared, the reverse happens: The evil angel voices a wish for it to be this way for another week and the good angel responds “Amen.” Shalom Aleichem, a liturgical song welcoming angels into the home before the Sabbath meal, is inspired by this teaching.
Maimonides, the 12th-century scholar, devotes a section of his Mishneh Torah to the nature of angels. They are incorporeal beings, he writes, possessing form but no substance. Descriptions of angels as winged or made of fire, Maimonides says, are merely “enigmatical” prophetic visions — that is, inevitably inadequate attempts to describe the formless and the spiritual within the confines of human language.
Maimonides describes a 10-level hierarchy of angels, with different types such as holy creatures (chayot hakodesh) flying serpents and chariot bearers. All of these forms are alive and know God intimately, Maimonides writes, but while they all know God more deeply than human beings do, even the highest among them, knowing more than all those below, cannot know the full truth of God.R" Not a single detail how angels are created, what a pile of precepts and traditions of men. Maimonides lists angels as flying serpents ? really? Where? Can't find reference? No wonder you are confused, I have trouble reading this stuff. Why do Jews miss the Ezekiel chapter 10 parallels to cherubs? Cherubs are created we are told. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 3, 2021 9:31:04 GMT -5
Where does the million years come from? Between the layers? The evidence is not there? When the flood happened there are many layers totalling over 3,000 metres thick, with hundreds of sediment rock layer on top of each other. Similar to Mt Helens that blew, 100 metres of sediment with dozens of layers between. RP" Similar to Mt Helens that blew, 100 metres of sediment with dozens of layers between.D" Academic Honesty – (google) Ash and pumice piled 6 miles (9.7 km) northeast of the volcano to a thickness of 3 feet (0.9 m); 50 miles (80 km) away, the ash was 2 inches (5 cm) deep. Can you help yourself from presenting lies as fact? And each layer represents an eruptive event – a puff R" Seriously Dave you owe me and Don Patton an anology.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_eruption_of_Mount_St._Helens Now read this general link carefully:-The landslide, the largest in recorded history See what you do – we were speaking of sediments – you were referring to the sediment laid down by flood waters. Now you bait and switch and post evidence of a landslideMost of St. Helens' former north side became a rubble deposit 17 mi (27 km) long, averaging 150 ft (46 m) thick; No sediment here – just a rubble pileThe resulting blast directed the pyroclastic flow laterally. It consisted of very hot volcanic gases, ash, and pumice formed from new lava, as well as pulverized old rock, which hugged the ground. (volume based on uncompacted deposits) 0.029 cu mi (0.12 km3); multiple flows 3 to 30 ft (1 to 9 m) thick; cumulative depth of deposits reached 120 ft (37 m) in places YEP – and that flow ripped the canyon open – exposing 600 million year old rockRP"No hint of lots of time between the layers in these examples. DUH – it says ); multiple flows 3 to 30 ft (1 to 9 m)It does not say one continuous flowRP"No hint of lots of time between the layers in these examples.D" Happening one at a time – once a snow fall or season = layering R" So are you agreeing with me now?I have no idea of your point If it snowed continually – non-stop – their would only be one layer Multiple layers indicate multiple snow falls - one a day – one every other day – once a week – each with a quite spell in-between for the crusty layer to form D"NO IT DOESN’T – it means one is moving faster Please try to stick to the facts R" I do stick to the facts, so if the two clocks have not aged any differently, why than does science say they are millions of years apart in time? WHAT – have you been watching cartoons? – the two clocks are compared at the end side by side. The statement is – one lost time and one gained time Any you say - , why than does science say they are millions of years apart in time?You are pathological Robert - - why do you need to make up facts?D"Schroeder says - two time scales - two calandars - man's time - and Bible time (I call it God's time) Time is not linear – do you have a valid argument? You say you respect Schroeder - but you disagree with him R" I have never said I disagreed with Schroeder, even if you point out he uses the Kabbalah at times? Everything you claim about the 7 Days of creation disagrees with SchroederD"Why would any Christian want to show all those evolutionist that they really believe scripture R" Dave, evolutionists do not believe in the Scripture, or the order of natural progress as the Scripture presents.You teach – not to witness to those most lostWhat a Christian message you preach – do tell them the truth – make them the enemy Jesus sad – love your fellow man – but you don’t even care enough to witness to them , why than does science say they are millions of years apart in time? D"And yet – time is your only argument – over and over R" Have you never read Evolution books Dave. That is their argument, over and over, not mine. If it is not your argument – why do you depend on it?D"Radiometric dating IS NOT a measure of time - IT IS a maeasure of volume In the past - earth WAS NOT geometrically older - IT WAS geometrically larger R" Not sure what you mean. Explain. If you present a new idea, why do you not explain yourself?If you are not aware of WEDD or FD-WEDT by now – your respect is lackingYOUR WORD GAME FAILS YOU R" I have asked you is the word cherub a guardian angel, and all I get from you is emotional blurbYes Robert – some angels function as a cherub Some angels act as warrior – does the word warrior mean angel?RP"So why are you fighting me if cherub is a guardian angel? Now you agree?D" You are pathological – are you capable of having a serious discussion or not? R" How about just simply saying what you support? What is a cherub? If the cherub is truly unknown and nothing is known, than the messengers from heaven are also unknown and anything unknown cannot be spoken about. What an intelligent statement!D Your pretend ignorance is not becoming or cute – it is insulting! D The term guardian - means only an angel R There you go, nit picking. "guardian is a function of cherub" yes. But details aside Dave, what confusion are you saying? Can't you make simple statements, like I do? I do not know how much more simple to make it Robert No Jew ever closed on the fact that Ezk 28 was about an angel If Ezk 28 cherub is an angel (an nothing else) then God commanded the Jews to violate the 2nd Commandment when they built the Ark of the Covenant
Scripture must validate scripture – precept upon precept, line upon line"The Hebrew word for angel is " malach, " which means messenger, for the angels are G‑d's messengers to perform various missions."' So why don't they simply use the word "messenger" for malak all the time? If they did – you would not be so confused about Jude and the sinning angels you love so much They were sinning massagers of the Beast (archon) www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htmThere is so much garbarge written here, is this all Jewish ideas? Surely not?Yes – you have been taught to say Jewish Garbage like a good little Roman ------------------------------------------- D" Roman Christiaity is the only Christianity and all of scripture is only about <.01% of the world's population cornered only in ancient Canaan You totally ignore that God is the creator and father of the whole world - all of the 100% You and your catholic friends teach that all those other god's of the ahl are myth You and your catholic friends teach that Eph 6:12 is error - no such thing as a Prinicipality R" I do not follow Roman Catholic ideas.You have an entire religion built around the Catholic doctrine of Fallen AngelsD" You teach evolution - satan begans as a good angel then evolved into a bad angels - by his own power - but you say you denty evolution R" I do not teach evolution, why do you say this?But you satan change his form and function – you say natural selection to help him be more competitive and successful – improve his survivability Thorns were created by god – but they didn’t appear until they were natural selected over time as your creation wore out D" You say you deny evolution - but thing changed and adapted by natural selection just as Darwin says R" Animals that adapt to a changing world is a Creation idea, written and published long before Darwin existed.- So you teach that natural selection and changing of forms is not evolution?D"Yes there were guardian angels around the throne – there were cherub angels around the throne R" You use the term guardian as an adjective I see, a function. OK what and who are angels than?MESSENGERS!www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htmTHis link is useless, what are angels? no malak , that is a function, messenger.So – you disagree – angels are not messengers Why did you just say - So why don't they simply use the word "messenger" for malak all the time?Where does Scripture say angels are created?Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. It says when – Day 1 No wonder you are confused, I have trouble reading this stuff.I agree with you statement – when you read – you read into it what you want it to say – instead of scrutinizing the information like a true scholar willing to learn and understand
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 16:29:40 GMT -5
D" If it snowed continually – non-stop – their would only be one layer Multiple layers indicate multiple snow falls - one a day – one every other day – once a week – each with a quite spell in-between for the crusty layer to formR" What about 15 snow storms in the one day, with 15 layers of snow laid in one day? D" You teach – not to witness to those most lostR" I have witnessed to Evolutionists before. I was a Science Teacher remember. D" If it is not your argument – why do you depend on it?R" Quote me depending upon time Dave? spiritualsprings.org/ss-979.htmThese verses tell us that Jesus Christ created the world as He spoke; the Holy Spirit empowered the words into actions using the hiding power of the Father. Thus all three Beings were involved in Creation, but the director of the whole Creation was the Son of GOD. Out of His hands from a central point the matter of the universe exploded into space, creating time along with it. While we see some similar lines with the Big Bang theory, we will later see Creationism is an Intelligent Designer at work skillully engineering our universe in just six literal days The Hebrew word deep here normally means a deep sea or water. But the Ancient Hebrew suggests any flowing active flow is also correct. Thus it seems the Holy Spirit was moving over the "hidden energy" flow of a primordial universe.
Hab 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
Science is only just coming to verify Bible accounts of Creation. Many Christian scientists like to bridge recent science developments with Bible Creation, to make harmony out of both, but this may be flawed. Perhaps we have not reached the wisdom to be able to discern the experiences of GOD at Creation. Perhaps we still have must more to discover and learn. As the Christian scientist Isaac Newton says we are only picking up sand grains of wisdom while vast oceans of sand beaches remain with undiscovered truths. Shalom
D" If you are not aware of WEDD or FD-WEDT by now – your respect is lackingR" I understand the violence of a bang, and the speed of atoms clashing causes nuclear reactions to speed up, but what about the earth expanding in volume, is this meant to mean violence, and with atoms clashing down in the magma chamber? Maybe we are have two theories speaking of the same thing? D" Yes Robert – some angels function as a cherubR" OK and this English word "angel" comes from "malak" meaning messenger. But the messenger is never created, so why use the term angel, why not messenger? And why ignore the cherub was created for guardian purpose. Since it is never a messenger, why do you use the term angel for cherub, they are simply guardian cherub. Leave it at that. Jews mix terms and confuse people. Question: why use the term "angel" is they are never created? ANd yet Jews say not following commands causes bad angels to come to being? Really? D" If Ezk 28 cherub is an angel (an nothing else) then God commanded the Jews to violate the 2nd Commandment when they built the Ark of the CovenantR" How is that relevant? Clearly the Jews made cherubims over the curtains. They wove them into the curtain, ie manufactured images, so isn't this an image? breaking the law ? Since when is making a temple picture as God wants, breaking his laws? D" If they did – you would not be so confused about Jude and the sinning angels you love so muchJude 1:6 And the messengers which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. How is this confusion? Its truth. Messengers. Leave it at that. Who are these messengers? The NT does not say? Or does it? Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the chief-messenger, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. RP" Where does Scripture say angels are created?D" Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. It says when – Day 1R" I though this is the creation of man, not these messengers. So is this the only text you have on the creation of these messengers? So these messengers are unknown creatures? www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htmAre you going to help me understand Jewish idea of messengers, because it's weird to say the least. Not a single Hebrew verse on these messengers, according to your theory. So Scripture never speaks of the messengers... what a silly Bible we have, not explaining things. Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? This passage negates your " RP"Where does Scripture say angels are created? D" Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. It says when – Day 1" idea. Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: If "songs of god" and "morning stars" shouted during the foundations laid of earth, ie Genesis 1:2, than these creatures must preexist BEFORE CREATION, and were with GOD during Creation. 37 verses use stars Ex 32:13 , I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, (can refer to humans) Nu 24:17 ..there shall come a Star out of Jacob, (can refer to divine beings) De 1:10 ..ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. (used as a simile for many) Ne 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, (used as a simile for many) Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang (maybe other stars from other universes sang? ) Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: ( a human, or another star exalts itself above God) Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. (not literal stars? Cast human stars to the ground, or other messenger stars to the ground from heaven?) Da 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Stars are similes of righteous beings Am 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, Moloch is a star elohiym, which humans are tricked to worship as stars from heaven. Where did this star elohiym come from? Moloch was built in Solomon's time, and also in Baal worship. Ac 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. Again no clues to what or where Moloch was but Babylon is a clue . Nimrod made Babylon in Genesis 10, but Dave notes in Genesis 6, the star elohiym gods may have arisen when the archons had sex with humans, causing a rise on star elohiyms upon the earth. This only adds to the confusion, where does Scripture speak of archons "rulers" ? We have no origin of "messengers"? No origin of "rulers" and no origin of "shedim" the devils ? D" I agree with you statement – when you read – you read into it what you want it to sayR" Perhaps? Must be something in Scripture to resolve this problem. I will ask God to show me something new. However, you ignore Ezekiel 28, the cherub creature sinned. This was written by a prophet. No where are we told the cherub are messengers? Is this conclusion true however? Let's begin here. Cherub exist closest to God around his throne in heaven. Why can't cherub be messengers? SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 3, 2021 19:44:13 GMT -5
D"If it snowed continually – non-stop – their would only be one layer Multiple layers indicate multiple snow falls - one a day – one every other day – once a week – each with a quite spell in-between for the crusty layer to form R" What about 15 snow storms in the one day, with 15 layers of snow laid in one day?Sure if it snowed 1.5-2” – then the clouds parted and the sun warmed the snow enough to retract – then the clouds came back and it snowed 1.5-2” – then the clouds parted and the sun warmed the snow enough to retract – then the clouds came back and it snowed 1.5-2” – then the clouds parted and the sun warmed the snow enough to retract – then the clouds came back and it snowed more 15 time in one day – sure possible – but probable? D"You teach – not to witness to those most lost R" I have witnessed to Evolutionists before. I was a Science Teacher remember.Evidently they kicked your ass – because you have given up Did you attempt to present the facts in their own vocabulary – or did you speak creationism to them?D"If it is not your argument – why do you depend on it? R" Quote me depending upon time Dave?Rather than mock my mention of time, you do not mention your view of time, only that you twist time based on different frames of reference.D"Time does not matter - is a stupid argument - Time is not linearWhat do you mean by saying "Time is not linear" Dave? I thought you said time does not matter?D" If it took 1 billion years per day - or 6000 years per day - or 24hrs a day or 2 seconds per day Time does not matterIn our own reality – Einstein taught – I got on a rocket ship and went as fast as light – time would slow for me – but not for you If I return in 1 day – you many have aged 60 years – or I might be looking at your great grandchildren Time is relative – to the viewer Gen 1 = God’s time – 6 days Gen 1 – does not = 1 day from man’s perspective – it appears much longer Man – knows that Day 7 is still ongoing and that is not 24 earth hours scripture show us - time can stand still and even run backwards1 billion years per day - or 6000 years per day - or 24hrs a day or 2 seconds per dayARE ALL EQUALLY POSSIBLE DEPENDENT UPON THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE VIEWER ARGUMENTS OF TIME ARE STUPID AND JUST A DISTRACTIONR" Well if time does not matter, why do science videos present it so much Dave?BECAUSE THE REAL FACT IS THE ORDER Every evolutionist on the planet agrees – Day 1 then Day 2 than Day 3 then Day 4 then Day 5 than Day 6 and here we are man LET’S DISCUSS CREATION – NOT A FLAWED SCIENTIFIC MATH PROBLEM!The Genesis Creation ? took 6 literal days of linear time.From God’s perspective – NOT man’sman wasn't even here to witness it according to youSo what confusing ideas are you presenting? You even introduce gap time? What is that?LET’S DISCUSS CREATION – NOT A FLAWED SCIENTIFIC MATH PROBLEM!D"The only voice arguing linear time is a Creationist – just so you can mock it R" DO you even understand the relativity of time?LET’S DISCUSS CREATION – NOT A FLAWED SCIENTIFIC MATH PROBLEM!So the science speaks of millions of years of relative time? What does that mean? So they say the dinosaur is millions of years old? Now that is not a relativity statement?Time yields order LET’S DISCUSS CREATION – NOT A FLAWED SCIENTIFIC MATH PROBLEM! D"If you are not aware of WEDD or FD-WEDT by now – your respect is lackingR" I understand the violence of a bang, and the speed of atoms clashing Your respect is noted
D"Yes Robert – some angels function as a cherub R" OK and this English word "angel" comes from "malak" meaning messenger. But the messenger is never created, so why use the term angel, why not messenger? Ok use the word mesengerAnd why ignore the cherub was created for guardian purpose. No one ignores the guardian messengersSince it is never a messenger, why do you use the term angel for cherub, they are simply guardian cherub. Leave it at that.I do not understand what you are trying to make upJews mix terms and confuse people. Question: why use the term "angel" is they are never created? Angels are not created? – Now what garbage are you preachingD"If Ezk 28 cherub is an angel (an nothing else) then God commanded the Jews to violate the 2nd Commandment when they built the Ark of the Covenant R" How is that relevant? Now you say the 10 Commandment are not relevant – you spent months suggesting God must follow those same 10 Commandments – now they are not relevant? Clearly the Jews made cherubims over the curtains. They wove them into the curtain, ie manufactured images, so isn't this an image? breaking the law ? Correct – it is not forbidden to make an image of a warrior – because warrior is not an messengerSince when is making a temple picture as God wants, breaking his laws?Now you say the 10 Commandment are not relevant – you spent months suggesting God must follow those same 10 Commandments – now they are not relevant?RP"Where does Scripture say angels are created? D" Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. It says when – Day 1 R" I though this is the creation of man, not these messengers.G en 2:1 And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. Now you are saying that the angels are not part of the host in heaven – or life on earth So where do angels exist?www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htmAre you going to help me understand Jewish idea of messengers, because it's weird to say the least.Weird? – This is the traditional Judeo-Christin view and has been for 5000 years1-According to Jewish tradition, an angel is a spiritual being and does not have any physical characteristics. The angelic descriptions provided by the prophets – such as wings, arms etc. – are anthropomorphic, referring to their spiritual abilities and tasks. 1- Angels are not 3D biology – they are spiritual beings (meaning beings of higher dimensions) Man attempts to put arms and legs on them like man’s is anthropomorphic2- Maimonides explains that all angels fall under one of ten ranks. Namely: Chayot Hakodesh, Ophanim, Erelim, Chashmalim, Seraphim, Malachim, Elokim, Bene Elokim, Cheruvim, and Ishim.8 These ranks refer to the degree of the angel's comprehension of G‑d; some have a greater understanding of G‑d and His ways than others. 2- Maimonides – Zohar based Judeo-Christian teaching 10 orders of angels Each order – different with different responsibilities Gnostic – we are 3D – principalities / archon are 4D (next to us – interfering with us) Arch-Angels – in the highest heavens near God – closer to the throne Enoch – traveled 10 heavens – say different activities in each heaven3- Angel Functions The Hebrew word for angel is "malach," which means messenger, for the angels are G‑d's messengers to perform various missions. Every angel is "programmed" to perform certain tasks; such as Michael who is dispatched on missions which are expressions of G‑d's kindness; Gavriel, who executes G‑d's severe judgments; and Rafael, whose responsibility it is to heal.9 Some angels are created for one specific task, and upon the task's completion cease to exist. According to the Zohar10 one of the angels' tasks is to transport our words of prayer and Torah-study before G‑d's throne. 3- programmed with a specific function – they just do what they do4- Assuming Human Form There is some debate among the great Jewish philosophers whether the angels that the Torah describes as appearing actually assumed a visible physical form,14 or they appeared in the course of a spiritual vision or prophecy—in which the angels appeared as physical beings.15 According to all approaches, however, seeing an angel requires extra-sensory perception, as the bodies of the angels are not comprised of all the basic elements of a physical being. 4- YES – angels or archon – do they really take human form – or do they just make man see whatever they want man to see Shape-shifting – doesn’t happen in truth – you just see it in your mind – a planted image - hypnosis5- Angels vs. Humans Notwithstanding the great spiritual level of the angels, the holiness of the Jewish soul supersedes that of the angel. Only the Jewish soul has the ability to descend to this physical and corporeal world and refine and elevate it.16 For the human's divine soul is a "veritable piece of G‑d Above," a "piece" of the Creator; as opposed to the angels which are creations—albeit very holy ones. This reflects itself in that fact that angels are one-dimensional: each angels has one specific form of Divine service. The human soul, on the other hand, serves G‑d in many different ways, expressing itself through love, awe, etc. 5- Angels and archon are spirits – but on the spirit of man can come to earth as a human being6- Furthermore, angels have no free-choice and are pre-programmed to serve G‑d, whereas the human is entrusted with the mission of serving G‑d—but is given the freedom to choose to do otherwise. As such, the mitzvot performed by the human are of much greater value than the angels' service, and propel him or her to infinitely greater spiritual heights, as opposed to the angels who are "trapped" in a consistent level of spiritual consciousness. 6- Angels have no free will – they just do as thay are programmed – to serve and praiseD"I agree with you statement – when you read – you read into it what you want it to say R" Perhaps? Must be something in Scripture to resolve this problem. Yep – it is called precept upon precept, line upon line – scripture must validate it self
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 13:58:28 GMT -5
D" Did you attempt to present the facts in their own vocabulary – or did you speak creationism to them?R" both . They stubbornly adhere to evolution, because evolution is a religious belief. ------------- R" Quote me depending upon time Dave?You posted stuff, but nothing there Dave, so I do not use long time periods in my view. When Jesus spoke the Creative Powers of creation took hold immediately and things happened. Much like the way Jesus healed the sick and overcame dysfunctional biological processes rapidly as well. -------------- (FD-WEDT2) January 7th, 2011 by David Freed MLS(ASCP)cm
Your paper states" while a 65% smaller planetoid with all of the continents fitting together to form a continuous concentric crust shell simultaneously Evidence from the fossil record has long been used to argue evidence of large scale flooding.13.
from STEVEN J. ROBINSON, Can Flood Geology Explain the Fossil Record? 1996, CENTech. J., vol. 10, no. 1
As a laboratorian, I would compute this data as 67.5 Million years ago +/- 2.5 Million.
As an abstract thinker, I would suggest that absolute understanding of all the variables used to guestimate ancient dates and the reality from Relativity that time isn’t always exactly linear yields variance in the guestimation process. Therefore, a +/- 2.5 Million year variance at 67.5 Million years ago is only a 3.7% variance over such a great time span.R" I thought you say time is not linear, but here you are happy to guestimate within 2 million years, that a great flood event happened 67 million years ago. The following decompression sequence was sudden and catastrophic and the fluid dynamics of gasses and fluids cracked the planetoid into its continental plates followed by rapid decompression. R" what decompression sequence? Your paper lacks this detail and finishes a few sentences on. Question: Does a reader from your paper see you supporting the Noachian Flood? Yes/No? You do not explicitly say. You also place 67 million years of time in there, as local time reference, therefore Noah can be traced back in time 67 million years ago, is not my view. It seems you do not support young earth creation model. Whereas I do. Your second paper " January 1st, 2011" The sequence of decompression was violently rapid.R" What sequence of decompression? Doesn't Scripture say the deep broke up and water came forth? Now that water is on top of the earth rather than under the earth? This caused an expansion in the crust as the water came through, moving the plates. The mechanism required for this was simply spoken by God at a certain time when Noah was ready to embark. D" Herndon sees an eruptive solar event R" This is a hypothesis...no evidence...cannot get evidence from the past, only make theories based on what you see as evidence. D" Once Protoplanet Earth’s giant gaseous atmosphere was reducedR" Again, a theory which is OK, but it is a theory about the past. D" Based on what they witnessed in their lab, the researchers concluded that more water probably exists deep within the Earth than is present on Earth's surface—as much as five times more.12R" Interesting. D"To this list, I add both the Grand Canyon and the new decompression crack forming in the Horn of Africa between the Red Sea Rift and the Gulf of Arden Rift.R" Interesting. D" During the millions of years of growing and stressing to lift the highest peaks to their zenith, slow and gradual erosion carved out the American West. Just look at the millions of years to carve the Grand Canyon alone.17R" by quoting this, you seem to support such a time scale? -------------- I read your source document paperCan Flood Geology Explain the Fossil Record? STEVEN J. ROBINSON creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j10_1/j10_1_032-069.pdfThere are no pre-Flood monuments, no petrified forests, no primordial mountains: 7 have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them along with the earth.' (Genesis 6:13) The surface of the Earth was destroyed (Genesis 9:11). In these circumstances the idea that any man or animal had time or opportunity to escape the waters is utterly inconceivable. There was no escape even for winged a Terrestrial animals are totally absent from strata of the Lower Palaeozoic because they were obliterated: Steven J. Robinson has an M.A. degree (Cantab.), lives in England and is currently co-editor of the Journal of the Ancient Chronology Forum, a journal which is at the forefront of research into the lack of correspondence between the records of ancient Israel, Egypt and modern archaeology. R" Interesting person, I note this paper comes from Creation.com
-------------------------------- RP" And why ignore the cherub was created for guardian purpose. D" No one ignores the guardian messengersR" Are you right? You cannot argue the cherub are guardian messengers, you would be supporting my view entirely. You have to support the idea that the cherub are never messengers, otherwise the cherub are created as the messengers in the NT, than the devil and his messengers are cherubs, my view. You just posted a goof here. Your only defense is to say the angels as messengers have no origin, not created specifically and are never related to cherub, otherwise you are supporting my view. Dave replies "I do not understand what you are trying to make up" Either we have clearly defined views, or you agree with me. You also have satan (Hebrew) different from satanas (Greek). Are there any scholars out there you can link you agree with you on this idea? D" Angels are not created? – Now what garbage are you preachingR" If simply doing yester ra from transgressing mitsvah causes a bad angel to appear, than how does this entity come to being, ie not created by God is it? Have the Jewish talmud, midrash and Kabbalah thought this through, after all nothing like this is in the Hebrew torah (11 scrolls only)? --------------------------- RP" Clearly the Jews made cherubims over the curtains. They wove them into the curtain, ie manufactured images, so isn't this an image? breaking the law ?D" Correct – it is not forbidden to make an image of a warrior – because warrior is not an messengerR" But earlier you post cherub are guardian angels? Not you post warriors. Which is it? D" Now you are saying that the angels are not part of the host in heaven – or life on earth So where do angels exist?R" angels I see is now some human made up term, that has no origin, except from Jewish talmud, midrash and Kabbalah. Not found in Hebrew torah, except clearly presented in Ezekiel. I will not use the term "angels" ever again, its a bogus made up term by humans. For the lay person "angels" are OK, but they do not know, where the term came from. Like the term "trinity", a Roman Catholic term very hard to define properly because people have different views, its a human invented term. The cherub are messengers. These cherub are guarding God's throne, and in fact sit closest to God. Hence when God sends a messenger it is always a cherub. One day long ago, a close cherub of God sinned and caused other cherubims to follow. God banished the cherubims to earth in a dark place, where light did not exist. If one cherub can lie and murder, than the cherubim have free will and love God intelligently, not robotically. I would suggest sticking to the Hebrew torah, the 11 scolls of the torah, not the tanak, which includes the bogus inventions of angels, and weird made up stuff about angels, which as messengers, have no origin, but in the minds of men. At least the cherub was created. A messenger is a function, and requires no creation. D" Weird? – This is the traditional Judeo-Christin view and has been for 5000 yearsR" The Hebrew torah is older than the traditional Judeo-Christin view . D" Angels are not 3D biology – they are spiritual beings (meaning beings of higher dimensions) Man attempts to put arms and legs on them like man’s is anthropomorphicR" isn't that funny? Ge 18:2 ...lo, three men stood by him: Ge 18:16 And the men rose up from thence, (they also ate a meal Abram made) The Hebrew word to describe this is "enowsh" D"M aimonides explains that all angels fall under one of ten ranks. Namely: Chayot Hakodesh, Ophanim, Erelim, Chashmalim, Seraphim, Malachim, Elokim, Bene Elokim, Cheruvim, and Ishim Maimonides – Zohar based Judeo-Christian teaching 10 orders of angelsR" Seraphim is not a creature, it is a function meaning to burn. The cherubim are also seraphim. Simply look up the verb and noun verses in the torah. D" Shape-shifting – doesn’t happen in truth – you just see it in your mind – a planted image - hypnosisR" Yes D" Angels have no free will – they just do as thay are programmed – to serve and praiseR" DO you have any torah (11 scrolls only) to back up this claim? My view is a cherub sinned, hence has free will. Therefore all cherubims have free will. The cherubim is the messenger, the guardian, and the angelic beings closest to God. Cherubims have lots of functional jobs to do for God because they love God freely. One cherub became a devil shedim and lies and murders. That also implies free will. We know the cherub is closest to God, hence by association is also a heavenly messenger (function). Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 4, 2021 20:47:14 GMT -5
D"Did you attempt to present the facts in their own vocabulary – or did you speak creationism to them? R" both . They stubbornly adhere to evolution, because evolution is a religious belief.So why don’t you present science on this forum?------------- R" Quote me depending upon time Dave? You posted stuff, but nothing there Dave, so I do not use long time periods in my view. The only argument you offer against evolution is an argument about time You say it is a flawed science – yet it is the only argument you make I have asked you and asked you – do you have any other argument – a valid argument And you just keep arguing time -------------- (FD-WEDT2) January 7th, 2011 by David Freed MLS(ASCP)cm Your paper states" As a laboratorian, I would compute this data as 67.5 Million years ago +/- 2.5 Million. As an abstract thinker, I would suggest that absolute understanding of all the variables used to guestimate ancient dates and the reality from Relativity that time isn’t always exactly linear yields variance in the guestimation process. Therefore, a +/- 2.5 Million year variance at 67.5 Million years ago is only a 3.7% variance over such a great time span. R" I thought you say time is not linear, but here you are happy to guestimate within 2 million years, that a great flood event happened 67 million years ago.R" Quote me depending upon time Dave?The only argument you offer against evolution is an argument about time You say it is a flawed science – yet it is the only argument you make I have asked you and asked you – do you have any other argument – a valid argument And you just keep arguing timeOne last try – time is an indicator of orderArguments of time are worthless and stupid – you prove my pointThe only argument that matters is order and cause Scripture list and order and give us the cause True science has rediscovered the same order – validating Genesis Even history validates scripture (Rom 1) By what power – do you wish to keep that from people? – Christian? The following decompression sequence was sudden and catastrophic and the fluid dynamics of gasses and fluids cracked the planetoid into its continental plates followed by rapid decompression. R" what decompression sequence?Your respect is noted – it is now compounded with contempt for me and my theory D" Herndon sees an eruptive solar event R" This is a hypothesis...no evidence...cannot get evidence from the past, only make theories based on what you see as evidence. There is a volume of evidencePsa 19:2 we see it happening in our telescopes – the handiwork of God I do not deny scripture The earth will be cleansed by the sun again in the future2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything done on it shall be exposed. 2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people should you be? Live your lives in holiness and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God. In that day the heavens will be dissolved by fire, and the elements will melt in the intense heat. D"Once Protoplanet Earth’s giant gaseous atmosphere was reduced R" Again, a theory which is OK, but it is a theory about the past. There is a volume of evidenceMuch of it is obviously beyond your understandingponderingconfusion.com/papers.php?id=expandingExpanding Earth Theory and NoahProtoplanet Theory Investigations into heavy-metal metallurgy led two different World War II German scientists to publish papers on Protoplanet Formation Theory. Carl von Weizsacker was born in 1912 and worked as one the the leading German physicist of the 1930s. Together with Bethe, he published the formula that describes the nuclear processing within stars called, to this day, The Bethe-Weizsacker Formula. During the 1940s he joined Werner Heisenberg and the German atomic bomb research team. Weizsacker's comments, about the earth's metallurgical and mineral composition being more easily explained if they formed within a high pressure and high temperature protoplanet, were published in 1944 (http://library.thinkquest.org/27930/planet_formation.htm.) Arnold Eucken, 1884 - 1950, received his PhD in 1906 and worked with Nernst in Berlin, on specific heats and quantum effects at low temperatures. In 1915 Eucken was appointed director of the physicochemical institute at the Technische Hochscule Breslau. In 1929, he was also appointed director of the Gottingen physicochemical institute. He wrote textbooks on physical chemistry, molecular vibrations, internal rotations, homogeneous and heterogeneous gas kinetics, supercritical solutions, and chemical engineering (http://www.nernst.de/ipc-directors.htm.) Eucken described the formation of earth's composite elements as a raining out from within a large gaseous protoplanet atmosphere, with high temperatures and high pressures, possibly as much as 1000 to 10,000 times present pressures (http://understandearth.com/Solar%20System%20Processes.htm.) Eucken published his Primordial Protoplanet Theory also in 1944. His theories proposes a large gaseous protoplanet, perhaps as large as 300 times the total earth mass of today. A rock core planetoid surrounded by a large, Jupiter like, gaseous atmosphere. Then as primordial elements were swept up by this protoplanet, they were condensed and concentrated toward the center by gravity. Raining down on the planetoid in concentric layers of matter (http://understandearth.com/Solar%20System%20Processes.htm.) This protoplanet concept works very well to explain many of the mysteries of The Nebular Hypotheses and The Standard Solar System Formation Theory. The extreme pressures and temperatures of the early protoplanet environment easily explains the mechanism for the liquefaction of the central planetoid. The high pressures and temperatures of the primordial protoplanet best explains the formation of heavy elemental compounds and minerals currently found in the earth's crust. This theory also easily explains why the earth appears to be layered in concentric shells of matter. However, the flaw with this theory is the fact that it leaves us on a Jupiter like giant gas planet. Expanding Earth Theory and the Super-continent of PangiaAlfred Wegener, 1880 - 1930, a German climatologist and geophysicist published his book, The Origins of Continents and Oceans, originally in 1912, and then again in 1915. His work was the first to suggest the concept of continental drift and plate tectonics. He suggested that a super-contentent he called, Pangia, had existed in the past, broke up, and the respective pieces drifted to their present locations (http://pangia.org/wegener.htm.) Wegener was fascinated by the new science of archeology and the implications of the fossil record to anthropology. Correlations of similar fossils found on different sides of the Atlantic lead Wegener to conclude that the two sides of the Atlantic must have been land bridged together. He then pushed all of the continents together in the Atlantic and the landmasses do seem to fit together like jig-saw puzzle pieces. Anthropologist have since used the super-contentent Pangia theory to explain many migratory patterns by herding animals Evidenced by the fossil record and hemispheric migration patterns of today (http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/wegener.html.). The super-contentent Pangia theory has had many consequences for geology, geophysics, oceanography, and paleontology; especially the concept of plate tectonics, that has become a scientific discipline all of its own. Super-continent Pangia Playing with the continental pieces of the Pangia puzzle, another German scientist, Otto Hilgenberg, presented yet another bizarre theory in 1933. Hilgenberg noticed that not only did the continents fit together in the Atlantic, but they also fit together in the pacific. He cut away all of the oceans and found that the continents fit nicely together to form a planetoid 64% smaller than present day earth. In a sense, he found that it was never the super-contentent of Pangia, but it was rather the planetoid Pangia. Hilgenberg's Expanding Earth Theory then speculates that some unexplained mechanism caused the planetoid to expand and grow to its present size. However, there were no imaginable mechanisms to explain the expansion of the planet and the concept of Expanding Earth Theory quickly fell by the wayside (http://understandearth.com/Earth%20Ezpansion%201.htm.) So here we have several theories about the formation of the earth, but none of them hold water. All of them have failed to explain the total process of earth formation. However, if you remember back to the "Psychology of our Understanding," any good detective knows that each perspective may not always contain the whole story. Each perspective can be wrong in detail, but if witness to a real event, each perspective will contain threads of the central truth. "Scientist still do not appear to understand sufficiently that all earth sciences must contribute evidence toward unveiling the state of our planet in earlier times, and that the truth of the matter can only be reached by combing all this evidence ... Further, we have to be prepared always for the possibility that each new discovery, no matter what science furnishes it, may modify the conclusions we draw." (Wegener, Alfred, The Origins of Continents and Oceans, 1915.) Dr J. Marvin Herndon - Whole earth decompression dynamics - WEDD(www.understandearth.com) Finally, a scientific thinker of today that finally comprehends how all these different planet formation theories blend together. The Nebular Hypothesis of solar system formation is a good start. However, from those early low temperature and low pressure beginnings, giant gaseous protoplanets are allowed to form. Dr Herndon, a geophysicists with a PhD in Nuclear Chemistry, reaffirms that a protoplanet as large as 300 times earth's total mass would easily generate the temperatures and pressures necessary to forge our planet into what it contains today. Conditions would easily generate earth's massive iron/nickel core and finally explain the process that liquefied earth's interior. Conditions would have also supported the formation of the many unusual compounds and minerals that form the crust. Additionally, the extreme gravity of 300 times earth's mass would also compress the central planetoid to 64% of today's diameter, which brings us right back to Otto Hilgenberg's Expanding Earth Theory. It is actually the planetoid Pangia at the heart of a large gaseous protoplanet, with possibly as much as 300 times earth present mass and the new perspective brought to the equation by Dr Herndon is the introduction of stellar mechanics. Astronomers have long known that early stars are often unstable and often have violent explosive events that eject massive amounts of stellar matter into space. Combined that revelation with the fact that the interior of our solar system appears swept clear of much of the debri of solar system formation. All of the planets inside the asteroid belt have minimal atmospheres compared to the gaseous giants beyond the asteroid belt. Photo evidence indicates that even the face of Mercury has the scars of some of its surface being ripped away. Dr Herndon suggest when our sun went through one of these eruptive events the tsunami type wave of ejected stellar matter swept away much of the inner solar system. Sweeping the atmospheres away from the inner planets. Sweeping away, or pushing away, the more loosely held space bodies and debris. Perhaps the asteroid belt was formed by this sweeping mechanism and the inner solar system became cleared of the many objects that generated the impact craters of our past. Perhaps the asteroid belt merely represents the extent of this stellar tsunami wave front. A wave front that was finally slowed to a standstill by the gravitational pull of the sun and leaving its accumulated rock and inner-solar-system debris in a well deformed ring, we call the asteroid belt. This stripping mechanism ripped much of the earth's gaseous atmosphere away. Without the gravitational effect of all that missing mass, the compressed planetoid Pangia was allowed to decompress into present day earth. Finally, explaining the geophysical mechanism that expanded the earth to today's present diameter. Dr Herndon called this his "Whole-Earth Decompression Dynamics." It is as simple as squeezing a rubber ball in your hand as hard as possible, then letting go. The ball will decompress back to its larger diameter. Isn't this as obvious as a forest full of trees? --------------------- D"To this list, I add both the Grand Canyon and the new decompression crack forming in the Horn of Africa between the Red Sea Rift and the Gulf of Arden Rift. R" Interesting. Totally un-address by Walter BrownD"During the millions of years of growing and stressing to lift the highest peaks to their zenith, slow and gradual erosion carved out the American West. Just look at the millions of years to carve the Grand Canyon alone.17 R" by quoting this, you seem to support such a time scale?You can choose to be an ASS if you want to Robert (science time) is a measure of order – do you have any other argument that is not about time?R" Quote me depending upon time Dave?You posted stuff, but nothing there Dave, Correct – one of us has a real issue with ACADEMIC HONESTY – just make up stuff-------------- I read your source document paper Can Flood Geology Explain the Fossil Record? STEVEN J. ROBINSON R" Interesting person, I note this paper comes from Creation.com This was my quote – “Evidence from the fossil record has long been used to argue evidence of large scale flooding.” – is this a lie? Are you going to disagree with this now? Or are you going to suggest that 1 sentence validates the entire Creation Institute? -------------------------------- RP"And why ignore the cherub was created for guardian purpose. D" No one ignores the guardian messengers R" Are you right? You cannot argue the cherub are guardian messengers, you would be supporting my view entirely. Correct – no one can deny that some messengers act as guardians You have to support the idea that the cherub are never messengers,If cherub are never messengers than how can they be guardian messengers?Dave replies "I do not understand what you are trying to make up" Either we have clearly defined views, or you agree with me.Yes – I have a clearly defined view – and I absolutely disagree with your word gameYou also have satan (Hebrew) different from satanas (Greek). Are there any scholars out there you can link you agree with you on this idea? I have linked – presented and quoted many Rabbi – there are several Rabbinic video specifically on topic You just do not like what any of the m / all of them say--------------------------- You are agrguing that the angels are not a part of the host of heaven – so I ask D"Now you are saying that the angels are not part of the host in heaven – or life on earth So where do angels exist?R" angels I see is now some human made up term, that has no origin, So – you think most of scripture is just made up – fairy tale is what you called Luke 16The cherub are messengers. These cherub are guarding God's throne, and in fact sit closest to God. Hence when God sends a messenger it is always a cherub. You have to support the idea that the cherub are never messengers, Double speak – flip flop – word game
D"Weird? – This is the traditional Judeo-Christin view and has been for 5000 years R" The Hebrew torah is older than the traditional Judeo-Christin view .The SDA and you seems to be on only denomination that deny the theology (google) What percentage of Christians believe in angels? Belief is primarily tied to religion, with 88 percent of Christians, 95 percent of evangelical Christians and 94 percent of those who attend weekly religious services of any sort saying they believe in angels.D"Angels are not 3D biology – they are spiritual beings (meaning beings of higher dimensions) Man attempts to put arms and legs on them like man’s is anthropomorphic R" isn't that funny? Ge 18:2 ...lo, three men stood by him: Ge 18:16 And the men rose up from thence, (they also ate a meal Abram made) 4- Assuming Human Form There is some debate among the great Jewish philosophers whether the angels that the Torah describes as appearing actually assumed a visible physical form,14 or they appeared in the course of a spiritual vision or prophecy—in which the angels appeared as physical beings.15 According to all approaches, however, seeing an angel requires extra-sensory perception, as the bodies of the angels are not comprised of all the basic elements of a physical being. 4- YES – angels or archon – do they really take human form – or do they just make man see whatever they want man to see Shape-shifting – doesn’t happen in truth – you just see it in your mind – a planted image - hypnosis D" Shape-shifting – doesn’t happen in truth – you just see it in your mind – a planted image - hypnosisR" Yes You disagree with yourself - are you sure you know what you believe?Doubble speaking flip floppin D"Maimonides explains that all angels fall under one of ten ranks. Namely: Chayot Hakodesh, Ophanim, Erelim, Chashmalim, Seraphim, Malachim, Elokim, Bene Elokim, Cheruvim, and Ishim Maimonides – Zohar based Judeo-Christian teaching 10 orders of angels R" Seraphim is not a creature, it is a function meaning to burn. – burning messengersCherub is not a creature, it is a function – guardian messengersWarrior is not a creature, it is a function – warrior messengersDeath is not a creature, it is a function - messenger of death
D"Angels have no free will – they just do as thay are programmed – to serve and praise R" DO you have any torah (11 scrolls only) to back up this claim? My view is a cherub sinned, hence has free will. Therefore all cherubims have free will. Yes – you have a circular argument – Ezk prove that an angel turned against god – that proves angels have free will – that proves an angel turned against God For two years I have been begging for more scripture evidence from you Precept upon precept, line upon line – an all you have is Ezk 28One cherub became a devil shedim and lies and murders. That also implies free will.Also implies you teach evolution – your angel changed it form and function against God’s WillI quote "This learning process involves asking a lot of questions about the text and about each other’s ideas about the text"Academic Honesty – Integrity – seriousness and honest is required – or the study is worthless
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