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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 13:52:00 GMT -5
How come the Coptic church has many articles you read, have Sunday School on them? Don't they keep Sabbath Saturday?
Would you attend Coptic Church meetings? Are they closer to your overall faith? than say Messianic church of Jews?
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Post by Dave on Nov 12, 2019 15:09:21 GMT -5
I begans as a Presbyterian - I guess I grew into a Gnostic - reading the literature of Jewish Paul, James, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas (from the Nag Hammadi) Now I see that my Gnostic walk is 100% Messianic Jewish
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 12:44:16 GMT -5
I see, but why is this Coptic church website, promoting Sunday lessons? The seventh day Sabbath is the ceasing day in the Hebrew Scriptures? Here is a direct quote from the Augsburg Confession as recorded by a Roman Catholic scribe, from article 28, Saturday June 25 1530 AD at 3:00pm. Moreover, it is disputed whether bishops or pastors have the right to introduce ceremonies in the Church and to make laws concerning foods, festivals and degrees, that is, orders of ministers, etc. They who claim this right for bishops refer to this passage [John 16:12–13]: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth.” They also refer to the example of the Apostles who commanded to abstain from blood and things strangled in Acts 15:29. They refer to the Sabbath Day as having been changed to Sunday; seemingly contrary to the Ten Commandments. Indeed, there is no other example they make more of than the one concerning the Sabbath Day. Great, they say, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments! For source link see spiritualsprings.org/ss-1121.htm
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Post by Dave on Nov 13, 2019 12:56:58 GMT -5
Unknow - I am not a Coptic
I respect their preservation of the origional script Rome edits, banns, burns, and rewrites
I respect their collection of the Broader Canon I do not respect Rome's attempt at edit and sensure
I respect that they have neve been at war with anyone Rome fights everone - including the Copts - centuries of war and conflict
I respect that the Copts have always lived in harms way I respect that the Copts have lived amoung the Muslims all these years without war - (until these days and the rise of Islam) I respect that it is the Copts and Syrian Christians that are living the tribulation / persecution
You kill a Catholic child and a Catholic wants REVENGE Kill a Copt or Amish child and they pray for the bad guys I respect this
My job is not to change them - detract from them in any way
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 4:29:35 GMT -5
I see, so the Coptics follow Gnostic teachings but are swamped by Catholic traditions and precepts? So in their mixing of confusion, some are persecuted for their faith, some are not. God sees the true intent of the heart.
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Post by Dave on Nov 14, 2019 6:24:57 GMT -5
I see, so the Coptics follow Gnostic teachings but are swamped by Catholic traditions and precepts? The Copts have the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees in their broader canon I see - that you cannt take data without attacking something - You should appoligies to them So in their mixing of confusion, some are persecuted for their faith, some are not. God sees the true intent of the heart. Again - Rome is your authority - if Rome don't like them - just Kill Them - very catholic
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:01:27 GMT -5
I am not attacking anybody's faith personally. People are welcome to the faith they see, in the light of experience they have. Personally I am a little shocked at how different we are, even those who read Hebrew....The closest person I follow is probably Jeff Benner, at least we mostly agree on his Hebrew meaning of words. This book of Enoch, is very large? www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htmAll 60 chapters are inspired according to you? The coptics considered the whole book as resourceful to them? I find Jude quotes Enoch on one material: Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, So if the disciples knew about this book of Enoch, why isn't it quoted much? And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.' For example here Enoch speaks of the Abyss, where inside this place, there is nothing, and as you get more closer, it is a place for the stars and the host of heaven. Who are these? These transgressed the commandments of the Lord. Where does the NT speak of these stars, who transgressed? Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 1. And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray Enoch says these are angels who lead people astray, bound in the Abyss, because they transgressed the laws of the Lord. 1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise. This chapter is concerning to me. It says Michael is an angel. I would expect the bookof Enoch is written in Hebrew. The word angel should be "cherub" ? is it? don't know. Here we read a special book as a translation, where as an interlinear is better. Too hard Dave, get the impression only Greek survives, at beast fragments of Aramaic, I placed enough here to show angels once did transgress, and are placed in the Abyss, this would become a place like "choshek". I have enough trouble reading my KJV Bible already in Hebrew, nobody it seems agrees with the Hebrew meanings there, without adding more material sources to it. We can't even agree over the meaning of elohiym or even amanuah. These are very important words. While this is all very interesting, it only adds to my confusion. I like to keep my theology simple and easy. We can't even agree over the meaning of elohiym or even amanuah. Gordan doesn't like polytheism. Yet you think Jews believe in a Father with a divine Wife. Well well. Really? Which Jew would agree with this? I can't find a single Jewish website backing up your claim. Can you help me out? I have read a book where underground Jews worship a Queen of Heaven, but not publically? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 14, 2019 17:43:33 GMT -5
This book of Enoch, is very large? All 60 chapters are inspired according to you? The coptics considered the whole book as resourceful to them? I find Jude quotes Enoch on one material: Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, So if the disciples knew about this book of Enoch, why isn't it quoted much? The Copts find it useful - why - for the same reason Jude did - he tested it and kept the good I Thes 5:21 (Very Gnostic) Enoch is quoted 63 times in the ahl + agl 57 times in the agl for a total of 83 verses 6 times in the ahl for a total of 7 verses According to you - Jude must consider all 60 chapters inspired alaskandreams.net/ekklesia/Book%20of%20Enoch%20NT%20Verses.htm
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 16:03:20 GMT -5
Fantastic we have found a Coptic Gnostic BOOK totally inspired...
And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place.
Correct choshek and sh@'owl, a place of nothingness
13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.'
Beings who transgress, have free will...
Where does the NT speak of these stars, who transgressed?
Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
1. And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray
Enoch says these are angels who lead people astray, bound in the Abyss, because they transgressed the laws of the Lord.
Comments?
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Post by Dave on Nov 16, 2019 7:27:41 GMT -5
Why does everything have to be absolutes for you – You are saying – if anything in Enoch is valid – then is must be 100% inspired
I so disagree – 1 Thes 5:221 – If you really believe what you preach – PROVE LUKE and ACTS are 100% line for line – word for word - If you cannot – then rip them out of your Roman Canon – because they both fail your test
The first thing Rob would say to this is – what are these words in the original Hebrew? Show them to me! How do you know it isn’t a translation error?
Remember – the Book of Enoch is not about the heavenly host – the elohiym in heaven (a heavenly government) This entire book is about the bane elohiym on earth – (a sub-government under different leadership with different boundaries)
If you are a sanitation worker and break ‘work rules’ - it is the same as - I disobeying your President and breaking a federal law?
Perhaps it is a Bastard text. Like Luke 2:2 and John 6:4 – both very short sentences. Neither of these verses affect the Gospel in any theological way – except casting doubt and confusion to the text
Luk 2:2 This was the first enrolment made when Quirinius was governor of Syria. Joh 6:4 Now the passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.
If they had free will they would have repented right then and there. They admit –their fate is sealed.
Enoch says these are (elohiym) who lead people astray, bound in the Abyss, ARCHON Enoch is entirely about the bane elohiym and their parent Archon (authority) Archon – elohiym of RA – created as a by-product of creation – a consequence of creation Just as entropy is the natural consequence of creation
There is only one parent Archon – the Chief Archon – the first one – it multiplied
IMO – think of a tall cool glass of crystal clear water – pure – TOV Add just one drop of dark red iodine RA – and over time – it disseminates throughout the water turning the whole pink Your car develops a rusty spot – ‘un-restrained’ it will just grow and spread
There is only one parent Archon – the Chief Archon – the first one – it multiplied into archon Satan is an elohiym, all angels are elohiym, this Chief Archon is an elohiym because elohiym = spirit being = heavenly beings
I am from Colorado = I am an American My friend Helen is from England = she is English At church – Corabelle (sp) was an Estonian Beings from the land of “el” = elohiym
Children to / offspring of the Chief Archon are bane elohiym
Gnostic Archon = The Chief Archon (Rev Great Dragon) – Her offspring ‘bane elohiym’ / archon – their disembodied spirts archon, those chained in hades are archon – any agent that works for the archon are archon – demons / Jinn / Shades / Lillith / Lilu / Shedim – spooks – goblins – whatever = all archon As in all RA – all working for RA – all enemy to man – all opponents to creation in the Great Contest
I am surprise that you reject the Gnostic Great Contest – don’t SDA people have the Great Contoversy?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 15:45:37 GMT -5
Interesting reply Dave. Thanks
quote: "Satan is an elohiym, all angels are elohiym, this Chief Archon is an elohiym because elohiym = spirit being = heavenly beings
Your theory of faith is really difficult for me because I can't find the Hebrew word you use for "archon". You don't seem to admit it is "sar" in the OT. In the NT the Greek word "archon" translated as "princes" makes sense, but you use in a slang way "the Beings of RA" a byproduct of Creation.
However saying Satan is an elohiym, and saying all angels are elohiym is very different. These two statements are very wrong.
Nowhere in Scripture (KJV) does it say these things. Prove these statements to me.
As far as I read, the only Beings of the elohiym kind are the one and only divine Family in heaven, the Father, Son and Mother (HS).
Man is the only Being made a little lower than elohiym.
Ps 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than "elohiym", and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
The KJV has "angels" here for some reason, a wrong translation.
You talk about bad translations, I notice something wrong in the Scriptures....I am fair to you, and myself...to say this....
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels "aggelos"; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Here somebody who is a Greek scribe is translating from the Hebrew, assuming the Author originally wrote this line in Hebrew. The Hebrew word should be "elohiym", so the Greek word should be "theos", but this is not written, and I cannot understand why "aggelos" is used instead?
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,
The same mistake is made here as well. It should read "theos" not "aggelos".
What is happening is the Greek Scribe is not just translating, he is also making the text suit an interpretation for Greeks, this is the same thing KJV does a lot for English readers, what NIV does to the Hebrew, its called a dynamic translation. I can't stand these sort of translations.... I prefer like Jeff Benner a purely mechanical Hebrew translation, however jagged it reads in English, and the most common mechanical translation we have is still the KJV Bible.
I can't find anywhere where it says what the order of "cherub" was in relation to creation as a kind.
You use "bane elohiym" at lot, to suppose these are angels? I don't see this term that way... If you look up all the contexts of "bane elohiym" is suggests beings other than angels, like humans and other unfallen creatures.
If you look at the way Jesus describes Humans as a Kind:
Ps 82:6 ¶ I have said, Ye "mankind" are gods "elohiym"; and all of you are children of the most High.
Contexts like this suggest the Divine Family is a special kind unique to the universes. Second, a little lower than GOD is the human kind. Angels are not listed as a creature kind in relation to man, that I know of? I would list angels are lower than humans, in third place IMO...but not sure if I should even say this?
We have differences in this, so I can't change your view...
Mt 4:6 He shall give his angels charge concerning thee:
Here the Greek quotes the Hebrew:
Ps 91:11 For he shall give his angels "malak" charge over thee,
Again it doesn't say "angels" it says "messengers". The Greek scribe is following the LXX translation guide, which also uses "aggelos" for "malak", and so begins a spoiling of the Hebrew into Greek.
The LXX also translates many different Hebrew words into the same Greek word... so much, one is at a loss to use the NT much to align it with the OT, because of a loss of meaning. For example is Jesus referenced as YHWH in the NT? Where Thomas says "my YHWH, my elohiym" has to be one context, but the doubt is written, because the Greek doesn't say that.
You quibble over :
Luk 2:2 This was the first enrolment made when Quirinius was governor of Syria. Joh 6:4 Now the passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.
is a historical one, which I can't answer well, because science does not objectively measure events in the past. I have enough problems with translation issues and convincing you what Hebrew words really mean. That task is already big enough for us, isn't it?
The biggest difference in our theories of faith, is you say GOD is both tov and Ra, but I don't see this.
In fair to you, I will say God intentionally created our universe with what seems Tov and RA, with RA on a limited scale. When I looked into the meaning of "choshek" it is a place of relationship to GOD, and it based on faith, sin and thus tells us that angels had done sinning long before man was ever created. The term abyss on earth also aligns to "choshek". So it seems GOD created tov with RA since Satan and many other angels had sinned already.
( you didn't like the Enoch quotes on this theme) OK, no wonder I stick to Hebrew... it's all I have left...
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
This tells you logically Satan, the angel, had sinned before saying this, because He hadn't died...so neither would Eve... in fact no angel had seen anything die? Can you describe something you don't know? no... you pick on me for not replying to some of your words, but if I don't know the word, it's not my experience, so I don't reply.
You have ignored me too, on the word 'medium'. I have on your word 'sherim' (spelling ?) So for a serpent to speak as He does, he must have experienced this... is this not logical to say this?
It also suggests this Being wanted His own kingdom. So Jesus had no choice but to create one... so how do you give what a sinning angel demands? A universe with tov and ra in it? But not totally run with ra, only limited ra. That's what I see with the day and night thing.
In a brand new universe, with tov, only day will exist. no night. no cold, no snow, no rain, no friction, no entropy. Weird for us?
When Adam sinned, the quantum code unravelled, the DNA code switched on, and thing began a gradual switch to more RA. no second creation required. It was built in, only as a possibility, based on choice.
You asked once, if the testing was successful, Satan and his tree, would be removed, and man would live in a world of tov with limited ra. Until Satan is removed forever, and we would get a renewed universe without night. IMO But since GOD sees all, Satan did test mankind to sin. And so more RA entered.
I note Alan does NOT see almighty GOD putting up with sinning for a moment. I agree. He doesn't understand 'medium' properties. When this first prince angel began to sin, creating "choshek' in the Father's secret place, there would have to be a medium affect to allow RA to exist with Tov. This function does not require the Father to know RA personally, nor the HS to know RA personally, its a natural function of medium properties.
When you look into magnifying glass at a sinful image, are you involved directly with the image? no, is the Holy Spirit? no. But the image can be sinning, but it doesn't affect the Father or the HS or the function of light, the medium affect only changes the properties of light. This is a fundamental reason why the Divine family requires more than one Being... so one Being looks through another Being, and thus is not personally affected by the sinning, nor destroys the sinner.
So I would disagree with Alan's statement, one can exist as a sinner next to the Father, and not perish...so a war in heaven is possible..
This is why this darkness choshek is a secret place of the Father. If you place a magnifying glass over the sunlight, the glass creates darkness automatically as the glass focuses the light tov, into a single point, leaving the regions of Ra to come around the point.
The salvation experience is also created in this Isaiah verse
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Both verse 7 and 8, must be read together. Salvation is created too using the same tov and ra properties.
A magnifying glass also explains this too. There is a special point called the focal change over point, when and image changes from upside down to GOD, to rightside up righteous to GOD, thus all ra vanishes and only tov grows in you.
The salvation affect is not caused by the Father alone (light) nor the Holy Spirit alone (glass) nor Jesus alone (speaking to you as His Saviour), but by al three as relational Beings. The medium properties create the affect, but the Father nor the HS does Ra personally.
Now this natural simile or object lesson does not answer all the problems we could ask, maybe we should NOT ask them?
Dave: "I am surprise that you reject the Gnostic Great Contest – don’t SDA people have the Great Controversy?
Your theory is testing over the natural tov and ra in us, the archons and good satanic angels test your willingness for more ra, it a fight over ra and tov. Your GOD is Tov but disdains the RA, is really saying GOD personally created both.
My SDA theory is over the Persons of Tov (GOD) and the Persons of Ra (Satan and his fallen angels). We fight the fight of faith, to walk I GOD and his tov, and not the Devil and his kingdom of all Ra. We are born with RA, only because our first parents sinned. So Ra came into all humans. Our GOD is only all TOV. Our theory says RA came only from Satan who sinned first with GOD.
With your theory, if Satan is a good angel doing a bad job, and both tov and ra exist naturally in us, than all literature is valid for doctrine , the Jewish kabbalah, the midrash, the Hebrew scriptures, and even some of the Gnostic writings, are seen as potentially valid.
With my theory, Satan sinned first, thus hates GOD, and it literally means a war in heaven still, but now limited to earth. He deceives people, lies and hides his ways... thus literature is deliberately confusing and deceiving. Truth is preserved in only a narrow way, the first five books of Moses first, and other witnesses to these books second. no kabbalah, no traditions of men, no commentaries. Satan has deceived the whole world, even the very elect? who are these? the Jews. the true followers even. All of us. Deception is His game.
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Post by Dave on Nov 17, 2019 7:08:41 GMT -5
sar: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince – sure chief rulers = chief archon ruler – archon when they are agents of RA – What do I need to admit? I have offered you many reference to the OT archon - The KJV translates Strong's H430 in the following manner: God (2,346x), god (244x), judge (5x), GOD (1x), goddess (2x), great (2x), mighty (2x), angels (1x), exceeding (1x), God-ward (with H4136) (1x), godly (1x). ulers, judges divine ones, angels, gods, (plural intensive - singular meaning) god, goddess, godlike one, works or special possessions of God, the (true) God, God, So your Lucifer was an angel (elohiym) then became your satan who is not an elohiym? Are you just a little lower than God? I think you think too much of man – or two little of God Surely you are not suggesting your 100% inspired Texus Recptus Greek OT is wrong somehow? Explain? bane elihiym are the “sons / children / offspring of the elohiym. Now what elohiym are we told had offspring? – The Chief Archon! Humans were not in heaven standing with satan in from of God NO – I say God created everything – including the RA If Ra exists – God created it – or there is a second creator I didn’t? Ok so there was a long duration war in the beginning of the story – then (you’re the first guy to suggest) there is no war in heaven for a while because it is limited to earth – then there is another war later in Rev 12? Let’s be – young earthers - - 6000 yrs – are you suggesting that for 6000 yrs God has been unable to quash you satan god and the angels of heaven that prefer satan to God – you MAKE the Creator very weak indeed. Hope he wins in the end?As a Gnostic Jew – our God is omnipotent! Point 1 Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. What ever is happening in heaven or earth = God’s Will You say – satan’s will changed God’s will – satan’s will is more powerful than Gods In this aeon – (our time) – you say IMO – you don’t KNOW this – you assume this You assume - In all of the ocean of galaxies – in all of the star systems – and on all of the possible planets – IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU Gnostics have such a bigger reality – because the universe is massive in scale – and is just one verse of the multiverse Point 2 You also assume that linear time began with Gen 1:1 – I do not – science does not God suspended time for Joshua and ran time backward for Hezekiah Gnostic creation has more than one aeon (time periods) In the First aeon (IMO – the age of elohiym) Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. In Gnostic literature – this was entire (Gen – Rev) chapter in creation - the spirit realm Read more: ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/417/first-aeon-creation#ixzz65XBaQyhjLook at Rev 12:7 ‘war - G4171 – πόλεμος -From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war This war – might be just one quick bustle – one singular event – as God said – “Michael – keck them out – and out they went kicking and screaming because they are being kicked out of heaven. Chief Archon First you say Then you say You are discussing Proportional punishment vrs rewards in heaven – it is a sliding scale The closer to the TOV you are the more God can tolerate you The closer to RA the more He cannot TOV________________________I____________________________RA I agree – it is a by-product – a natural consequence – inherent to - a natural function of medium properties. I appreciate your validation
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 13:19:31 GMT -5
There is throughout our discourse Dave, where we have harmonious thoughts, we agree, but we have different terms... But than I read your link: The descriptions of the Father are glorious and very unlike anything I have read before: thanks for the share Than I read of the Holy Spirit in the presence of the Father, and the language (is not Hebraic) considers "her along with him" is not the way Hebrew works in a relational setting. So the passage is adding things, its deceptive... " she who had appeared before him in the shine of his light". This is correct Hebrew saying. "She is the forethought of the All - her light shines like his light" This is NOT Hebrew. Deceptive IMO. While Scripture does not say the moon is a simile of the Holy Spirit, but the Hebrew words (ruwach and yareach) they are related, we see naturally moonlight comes wholly from sunlight. This means the Holy Spirit is an agency for the Father's light. Not a provider of light, a responder to light. I am not aware of any Bible context where the Holy Spirit functions using it's own inherent power. In a universe of all TOV, this might be possible, but in the constraints of allowing RA to exist by creation, the Holy Spirit has to function always as a medium power. I have mentioned this "medium" thing to you many times, hope you understand it, "wind" is not an inherent power, air (media) carries a kinetic flow from a source, the whole thing functions as a medium affect. Much like electricity flows from a source, the EMF, but the actual electrons only carry the flow along, in the copper (media) and the atoms (media) the overall thing of electricity is a medium affect. Some science people say the duality pulse flows in two different directions all at once, the EMF at the speed of light, the current very slowly? The passage continues: This is the first thought, his image; she became the womb of everything, for it is she who is prior to them all, the Mother-Father, the first man, the holy Spirit, the thrice-male, the thrice-powerful, the thrice-named androgynous one, and the eternal aeon among the invisible ones, and the first to come forth.Weird, but no comment at this stage? And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration. And though the person of her maleness had not approved, and she had not found her agreement, and she had thought without the consent of the Spirit and the knowledge of her agreement, (yet) she brought forth. And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfectThe passage gets more deeper off track... truth at first, than slightly off track, now deeply off track... this is how deception works... " She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit" Who is she? Who is the Spirit? There are two she's here? " without her consent" is by definition a sin? Divinity cannot sin. " because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect" Thus the Father's wisdom is imperfect...thus the Father also sins...? An Agency only does what Jesus says, using the powers of the Father during Creation. Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: What was brought forth? Wisdom, the wise instructions of the Father and the Son, carried by the Holy Spirit... all that wisdom has to be perfect and fully TOV. Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: An agency only does as it's told to do.... Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Again an Agency only does as it's told to do...the him here is both the Father and the Son... Pr 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. (KJV)Not a hint of RA, only sin, choice and GOD. What is RA than? is a relationship concept, as this passage shows here... a choice...engineered by GOD, but your choice... And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. This is interesting, but based on few texts: Eze 1:4 ¶ And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind (ruwach) Holy Spirit.... so the passage begins... the same book you don't like... Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures.It's hard to fathom what this means...did these living creatures come out of the Holy Spirit? The Gnostic texts indicate so? Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.Here the Gnostic texts refer to the lion faced power? " it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent". Scripture does NOT say this... " serpent" NO " She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance" Who are the two she's here? " she had created it in ignorance" No Scripture anywhere of the Holy Spirit creating anything. This is wrong, and clearly deception IMO. Can the Holy Spirit create? I don't know. Can Jesus create? I don't know Can the Father create? I don't know. Scripture does not answer these questions. As far as I know, no divine member on its own creates... the function of creating is a relational effort it seems. Each member has it's own divinity and powers, and we see that power in them individually, Scripture on that, but creating on their own? Scripture is silence on this. " This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother. And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born. He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now." This is ridiculous. the first archon (prince archon) gets power from his mother? No Not Hebrew. A feminine divine being cannot become a provider of power. " and created for himself" Creatures cannot create. This implies the Holy Spirit creates other Beings who create... NO Only GOD creates, creatures cannot. GOD cannot create divine Being like themselves... only GOD is immortal, without matter, time and space... I can see why the Devil, Satan, chief Archon, would want to write Gnostic writings like this...to give him a reason for sinning...it a good angel doing a bad thing, but GOD designed it all...NO NO NO Sin is the cause of RA, GOD made it manifest. Satan opposes GOD all the way through since sin came into him. The first Being to have sinned, before Adam sinned. Your quotations from your link, are way off. Sorry.
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Post by Dave on Nov 18, 2019 4:27:24 GMT -5
You are just unaware of the “ALL”
Your definition – I do not place limits on an OMNIPOTENT God
John1:1-3? I believe in the Trinity! Catholics just are afreaid of feminine vocabulary
Again – I believ in the Trinity and I do not place limits on an Omnipotent Creator
By your definition. The Jews say – Thank God for satan. Thank God for the choice. Thank God for the opportunity to have virtue. This is wisdom. Periapsis the wises thing God can do for man – give him a choice – or we would be robots
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 4:57:22 GMT -5
Rob: No Scripture anywhere of the Holy Spirit creating anything. This is wrong, and clearly deception IMO. Can the Holy Spirit create?
Dave: John1:1-3? I believe in the Trinity!
John 1 1-3, uses words like elohiym, and nothing about bara.
You have to show a verse with ruwach and bara. Such a verse doesn't exist.
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (KJV)
This is the only verse that comes close, except it uses "elohiym" "bara" and "ruwach"
SO the second birth experience created via the womb of the Holy Spirit, is using a power of Jesus or the Father (elohiym) not solely by the Holy Spirit.
Why is it this way? Well if you read Jeff Benner, Scripture and Hebrew thinking, in the presence of masculine and feminine, the masculine takes precedence.
And in the function of an agency working as a medium (ie manifesting RA) you can't have a divine Being making powers next to RA sinners, directly, they would cease to exist. You have to create mediums, and this by definition requires a source of power flowing through a conduit acting as a medium or agency. Hence the Holy Spirit never is a source of power in a universe full of tov and ra.
It can be in your theory, because you say RA and TOV are natural elements of GOD design, thus you don't need 3 members of GOD. The Father could save sinners on His own. Maybe have a Son die? But no need of a Spirit. The Father could speak to sinners via the conscious living in every sinner, after all GOD creates RA right?
What does Scripture say about the Father and RA?
Ex 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Why can't RA-sinners see the Father YHWH and live? With your theory they should be able to because GOD creates both Tov and Ra. You can't answer this question. You might say God is too big... doesn't Paul say GOD is unapproachable light?
However my theory answers the question easily, and answers why we must have a minimum of three divine members. To make a medium function you need a minimum of two divine Beings, one as a source of light, the other as a media to conduit that light, hence a medium affect.
The biggest proof for this is "wind" is a function for the Holy Spirit.
If your theory was true, GOD authors both tov and ra naturally, than only the Shadday would be required for salvation, the personal form of the Mother. But Scripture doesn't say this. The Shadday shows in Scripture as the ruwach, "wind". Why this dual nature?
To make agency and medium properties so Ra can exist in God's world of Tov.
Every time YHWH came to see Ra-sinners He came through a medium.
Ge 17:1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
How many divine members appeared to Abram? one... but there were two divine Beings, causing one appearance. YHWH flowed through the Shadday to appear to Abram.
You didn't answer my question: Holy Spirit doing something on it's own...ie creating...
Can't be done in a world of Tov and Ra...
Shalom
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