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Post by Dave on Jun 16, 2022 9:19:01 GMT -5
Robert wants to oppose a world renowned Jewish PhD Physicist and Astro-cosmologist He is kind enough to present such a detailed book report – that to respond would feel disconnected So – I just add my response within his post Full text of "Gerald L Schroeder The Science Of God The Convergence Of Scientific And Biblical Wisdom Free Press ( 2009)" Rob quotes Schroeder" The reason the six pre-Adam days (Genesis 1:1 – 27) were taken out of the calendar is because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis. There the passage of each day is described as “There was evening and morning” with no relationship to human time. Once we come to the progeny of Adam, the flow of time is totally in human terms. Adam and Eve live 130 years before having Seth. Seth lives 105 years before having Enosh, etc. (Genesis chapter 5). From Adam forward, the flow of time is totally human-based, earth -based. But prior to that time, it’s an abstract concept: “Evening and morning.” It’s as if the Bible is looking at those events of Genesis One from a viewpoint other than the earth, a cosmic view of time. What might be the Biblical perception of the timing of those events prior to Adam relative to our earth-based measurements?Rob" I do not find "But prior to that time, it’s an abstract concept: “Evening and morning" this is perfectly the way Hebrew people count time, we worship Sabbath from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, evening to evening. And Hebrew people count a day from evening to morning. G" It’s as if the Bible is looking at those events of Genesis One from a viewpoint other than the earth, a cosmic view of time
R" THis is the only assumption Gerald uses to postulate hsi errors. This cosmic view of time exists if you are in heaven looking down on earth (CORRECT), but does not exist on earth. You could view cosmic time from other stars, changing the frame of reference, otherwise all time on earth is local.We look back in time, and measure of the universe to be 14 billion years old. But as every scientist knows, when we say the universe is 14 billion years old, there’s another half of the sentence that we rarely bother to state. The universe is 14 billion years old as measured from the time-space coordinates of the earth, that is, from our current position in the universe.R" correct and Gerald fails to mention this frame of reference much in his paper, "the time-space coordinates of the earth, that is, from our current position in the universe." Today, we look back in time and we see approximately 14 billion years of history and those years went by. But how would they be perceived from the Bible’s perspective of time? Looking forward from when the universe was very small – billions of times smaller – the Bible teaches that six days passed. In truth, they both are correct. R" confusion. Bait and switch technique. On earth on our frame of reference time is local yom, one after another. From heaven looking on earth, time is different according to that position. Two views of one reality from two vastly different perspectivesarchive.org/stream/GeraldLSchroederTheScienceOfGodTheConvergenceOfScientificAndBiblicalWisdomFreePress2009/Gerald+L++Schroeder-The+Science+of+God_+The+Convergence+of+Scientific+and+Biblical+Wisdom-Free+Press+%282009%29_djvu.txtA simplistic reading of the Torah places our human origins at less than six thousand years in the past. Yet fossils of Homo sapiens extend back sixty thousand years. Neither source of knowledge need alter its view. Nahmanides, seven hundred years ago, Maimonides over eight hundred years ago, and the Talmud, dating back some sixteen hundred years, discuss the existence of beings living before and alongside Adam They were described as human in shape and intelligence but lacking the soul, the neshama, to make them human. There is no trickery here.
R" I suppose Satan, the opposing elohiym power, adds subtle changings in the mind of so called wise, so to promote his dealings later in time. I disagree with the passage of Gerald completely. There are no fossils of that age, such is a made up conjecture of story telling. There were no humanoid creatures before Adam. The writings of Gerald are strange at times" Was it was possible that Adam had an ancestor. “The text of Genesis and the ancient commentaries certainly [certainly, mind you!] leave the door open for that interpretation.” Too often he is swayed by popular Jewish writings outside of the received Hebrew torah.Sorry – Gen 1 = man (Humanoid) – before Gen 2 man (Human Being) = 100% TorahTotal agreement with the fossil record Total agreement with Intelligent Design Total agreement with Torah The medieval philosopher Moses Maimonides wrote that conflicts between science and the Bible arise from either a lack of scientific knowledge or a defective understanding of the Bible. This is a continuing problem.Thank you for this
- this is exactly my teaching - my belief - my point of view things only happened one way - God's Way Why would a believer be threatened when science validate scripture
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R" Hmm? You mean the opposing elohiym power had to add some comprises in his writers over time? The inspired Hebrew torah is inspired, and lacks such additional comments for a reason. It's different to modern science. Why would any believer be threatened when sciece validates scriptureThe universe is tuned for life from its inception. Genesis agrees: when life first appears on the third day, the word creation does not appear. We are merely told “The earth brought forth” life. Earth had within it the necessary properties for life to flourish. R" Gerald alludes to the idea that plant life came about by natural force alone, not created...In other writings he suggests "God made matter from nothing and than shaped of made it" I suggest no such thing. Hab 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power. Something was coming out of the Creators hand, so something does not come from nothing. And God engineered this something, the terms created or made, or formed relate to the OVERALL processes of engineering. Jews are nitpicking over word games to make new additions to the Hebrew torah. Circles were perfect geometric shapes, ellipses defective. An infinitely powerful God would be expected to produce perfect orbits. The Bible did not claim this. The Church did. Rob" Yes God made everything perfect in circles, but when sinning came more of the cursing of God came. Nothing strange about imperfect orbits. REPEAT - The Bible did not claim this. The Church did.The biblical concept of an infinite God is a God that could make all births perfect. I imagine if I were God I would. But the world as described in the Bible does not function according to our demands. Most children are born healthy and physically normal, but not all. Nature has its level of freedom, R" correct, once sinning is allowed to exist, God must allow sinning to exist in all forms, including RA. Not worthy of a comment3. “And God saw the light, that it is good” (Gen. 1:4); “And God saw that it [the oceans and earth] is good” (Gen. 1:10); “And God saw that it [the origin of plant life] is good” (Gen.
1:12); and on and on. God sees that “it is good” seven times in the thirty-one verses of the first chapter of Genesis — the creation chapter. Almost a quarter of all those verses are devoted to God’s discovering that “It is good.” Didn’t God realize from the start that it would be good? Perhaps. But this is not explicit in the text. R" Maybe God forsaw the Gnostics writings that would spoil His words? Gnostic - God had the time and the privalage to enjoy his creation one at a time in an incremental progression Time and again, the Torah implies that the infinitely powerful biblical God withheld control and allowed the world to follow its own course. With this godly approach to world management, the results were not always “good.” The Creator then redirected the flow.
R" Hmm? If sinning is to exist, than God has to allow sinning to naturally take its course, including the natural and moral RA associated with sinning. - OK - Free Will + Gen 3:15 = The Gnostic ContestAt each stage, God withheld control to a greater or lesser extent. This allowed the world to develop according to the laws of nature created at the beginning and the moral responsibility
The gradual evolution, of a trait that only slightly alters the morphology of the animal is referred to as micro-evolution. The change in longevity for post-Flood humans is micro-evolution. It is observed regularly in farmyards and biology laboratories. It finds no dispute in the Bible. Macro- evolution, the evolution of one body plan into another — a worm or insect or mollusk evolving into a fish, for example — finds no support in the fossil record, in the lab, or in the Bible. R" Gerald alludes to micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution. Personally I do not like any terms referencing evolution. Since the first science people were Christians writing of God's world, why must we talk of evolution words? natural selection is a Creationist idea. So how are we to understand creationism? Biblically, creation is a divine act of tsimtsum, contraction — a spiritual contraction by which the Creator removes part of Its infinite unity (“Hear Israel the Eternal our God the Eternal is One,” Deut. 6:4). Complexity now appears where there had been the undifferentiated simplicity of One. The greater the tsimtsum , the more extensive the complexity and the greater the corresponding potential for mperfection.Rob" I can relate to this idea. DUH - it is the definition of ra - the movement away from GodIsaiah in two sentences clarifies this concept: “I am the Eternal, there is nothing else. I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil” (Is. 45:6, 7). The infinite source of light withdraws and darkness is created. The infinite source of peace ( shalom , from the root shalaim meaning whole, complete) withdraws and evil (lack of perfection) is created. The first biblical tsimtsum (Gen. 1:1) allowed the physical complexity of the universe with its laws of nature to emerge. Then followed the creation of the nefesh — the soul of animal life — allowing animals choice strongly dictated by instinct and inclination (Gen. 1:21). The third and final creation was the human soul — the neshama — instilling free will in humans (Gen. 1 :27).R" Hmm? It may come as a surprise that belief in a beginning does not require belief in a Beginner. The laws of nature allow the creation of the universe without the need for a creator. “Quantum uncertainty,” an aspect of the physics known as quantum mechanics, allows the small but finite possibility of something coming into being from nothing via what is nown as a quantum fluctuation.- Since quantum mechanics has a sixty-year track record for predicting and explaining bserved phenomena, this theory of a quantum fluctuation/big bang beginning too may be correct. R" something Gerald says is weird. According to the fossil record, gradual evolution has been found to be false at every major morphological change.R" correct Correct supports INCREMENTAL CREATION Then, 530 million years ago in the Cambrian era, with no hint in earlier fossils, the basic anatomies of all life extant today appeared simultaneously in the oceans.- ------ The Cambrian explosion of life is one of the century’s greatest discoveries.R" Gerald still uses the evolutionary time, that does not exist on our frame of reference. An accurate description of macro-evolution as presented by the fossil record is that it usually takes place somewhere else and all we are left with is the punctuations. Darwin realized this far better than his overly enthusiastic followers. On no less than seven occasions in the Origin of Species, he implored his readers to ignore the evidence of the fossil record as a refutation of his concept of evolution or to “use imagination to fill in its gaps.” The record’s leaps and bounds, he claimed, were the result of its being incomplete.
Biblical time before Adam is so highly compressed that there is simply no opportunity to describe the processes (or even the sequence except in the broadest of terms) that caused life to advance from the simple to the complex. The Bible is eager to get on with the story of humankind. From Adam and forward, biblical time is time as we know it, no longer compressed. But less than six thousand years span the period between biblical Adam and the present, not nearly enough time for macro-evolution to occur, even by the most extreme interpretation of punctuated evolution.R" correct, macro-evolution doesn't exist Also correct is that creationist are in a hurry to race to man - The Bible is eager to get on with the story of humankind.Scientific estimates of fossil ages and a multibillion-year-old universe come from a variety of diverse and independent measurements. Since the 1940s, carbon- 14 has been a standard method for dating fairly young fossils, those with ages up to about thirty thousand years. But with C- 14 there has always been room for suspicion. For the ages to be valid, the amount of radioactive carbon (i.e., C-14) in the atmosphere must always have been constant. Carbon- 14 is produced by cosmic rays smashing into nitrogen atoms near the top of Earth’s atmosphere. If the intensity of cosmic radiation was different in bygone ages, then the C-14 dating system will be in error. There is now evidence that cosmic radiation has not been absolutely constant during the eras that C-14 is used for fossil dating. Rob" correct past radiation was not constant, so clocks based on radioactive decay are irrevelent “A thousand years in Your sight are as a day that passes, as a watch in the night” (Ps. 90:4). Perhaps from a biblical perspective the six days of Genesis include the fifteen billion years we earthbound mortals estimate to be the span of time since the beginning of time, just as a watch in the night might include a thousand years. R" Hmm? Ancient commentaries, those written millennia before the discoveries of paleontology and cosmology disclosed any hints that the universe was billions of years old, state definitively that the six days of Genesis were twenty- four hours each, the total duration of which was “as the six days of our work week.”-, ^ R" so if the commentaries are six 24 hr periods, why does Gerald seek to twist them more? But these same commentators continued and described those six twenty-four-hour days as containing “all the secrets and ages of the universe.”- Now that sounds like Psalm 90:4!R" so for these secrets, we dare to invent further cosmic clocks of enourmous ages? Time is the only argument of a creationistBy the way, atoms to do age. Rock do not age. Humans do not age. We are on average about 3 months old, every protein is replaced daily. We we look old is because of the DNA makes mistakes. No such thing as time anyway... only the mind records the past ahead of us, as Jeff Benner explains. Can you feel any of this? Are the clouds flying by at breakneck speed? No. So why believe it? Well, just as you can’t believe everything you read, you can’t believe everything you see. It takes research, intellectual effort, to find the truth. Our senses may be adequate for getting us to work and back, but when it comes to questions of the cosmos, our senses need help. The secrets of nature are not always revealed by a literal reading of nature.R" Modern science is not very good and discovering truth. The confusion mounts. How can six days contain the ages of the universe? And if they are truly ages, then why refer to them as days? R" Gerald wants to mock the old commentaries, and add the secrets of time... The ancient realization that somehow the days of Genesis contained the generations of the cosmos is based on two biblical verses: “These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created in the day that the Eternal God made earth and heavens” (Gen. 2:4); and “This is the book of the generations of Adam in the day that God created Adam” (Gen. 5: 1). In both verses, generations are juxtaposed to days of Genesis. R" Yes I like this Gerald, relativity is written in Hebrew all this time. Pun intended. Huge changes in gravity (G) or velocity (V) are required to produce easily measurable changes in the flow of time. And even with the needed large variations in G or y the flow of time wherever you happen to be will always appear as normal, just as it does right now. It appears normal because you and your biology are in tune with the local system. Only if we view events across a boundary, looking from one location into another location that has a very different G or Y can we observe the effect of this extraordinary law of nature which was discovered by Einstein. The relativity of time is encountered only when comparing one system relative to another; hence the name the law of relativity. R" IN order to experience huge changes in G you have to visit another frame of reference, something Gerald neglects to tell you... My then eleven-year-old daughter, Hadas, exclaimed, “Dad, this is great! This is just super. Send me to that planet. I’ll stay there for three minutes, do two years of homework, come home and no more homework for two years!”
That’s not quite correct, is it?
In Hadas ’s time, three minutes will have passed. But for us on Earth, those three minutes will have taken two years. In those two years Hadas will have done only three minutes of homework and aged only three minutes. Upon return to Earth, all her friends will be thirteen while she will still be eleven. R" correct. So why does Gerald invent billions of years into the spaceship called earth. Travelling in the Creation Week the earth space ship took just six days to travel. Where is this other frame of reference you so badly seek? That is the proven nature of time in our awesome universe. Had I watched Hadas from my low-gravity location, her time (and all her events, including her aging) would have passed veryslowly. To me, events in my system were totally normal. From Hadas’s perspective, her watch and her actions were normal, but looking across the reaches of space from her high-gravity system into my lower-gravity system, she would have seen my watch and everything else on Earth going very rapidly Between two beats of her heart, my heart would beat 350,000 times. R" now the imaginary bait and switch, if you see from your reference to another reference, you see time slowing down. Yes correct. But you cares? Nobody on earth was looking into space, nor Creation week looking to another frame of reference. There are any number of ages for our universe, each being correct for the location at which the measurement is made. And there are literally billions of locations where a clock, if we could place one there, would tick so slowly that fifteen billion Earth years would pass while it recorded only six twenty-four-hour days. R" correct, Relativity different locations, different frames of reference have different times. So finding an equality between the six days of Genesis and fifteen billion Earth years is not a problem. But unfortunately, this simple solution is inadequate. Individual locations are not relevant to the opening chapter of Genesis. If we are to discover the basis behind the exclusion from the biblical calendar of those six days of Genesis, we must identity the universal perspective of the Bible’s space-time reference frame for those eductive, six pre- Adam days. R" No we don't have to, on earth the earth time remained six yoms in Creation Week. No need to seek how other worlds saw our time clock across space. The biblical calendar is divided into two sections: the first six days of Genesis and all the time thereafter. Those six days are not, and never have been, included in the calendar of the years which follow Adam. Time in the biblical calendar after Adam must have been Earth-based.R" Not so. COunting time evening to morning is the correct way to record time. In our earth ship we have a single clock. Nobody cares to view another's clock across the trillions of light years of space. Our local based clock is based on the yom, Gerald agrees is six 24 hours. Most important of all, we know that there is no possible way for those first six days to have had an Earth-based perspective simply because for the first two of those six days there was no Earth. As Genesis 1 :2 states “And the earth was unformed. . . . Rob" Assumption and wrong. If there was war in heaven, and messengers were banished to earth, than earth existed long before Creation of Man. Earth was a desert as 2 degrees Kelvin, yes, because sinners lived there. Unformed, so of, but the rock was here, central stage. I have an agenda, to demonstrate a harmony between science and the Bible. To limit my subjectivity, I have restricted my sources of scientific information to peer- reviewed data that are accepted in physics laboratories of leading universities. I have limited my sources of biblical interpretation to the Talmud (redacted in the year 400) and the kabalist Nahmanides (1250), the two mainstream traditional paths to the deeper meanings held within the text of Genesis.R" Yes an agenda to mix modern science into Hebrew science. They do not mix. has the mysterious property of being both a particle and a wave. It is the wave aspect that allows us to measure time over cosmic distances. What we refer to as visible light is only one particular band of wavelengths in a nearly infinite range of electromagnetic radiations all of which travel at the same speed: the speed of light ( c = 300 million meters per second in a vacuum).R" Yes light is both a particles and a wave. A common error in exploring the brief biblical age of the universe relative to the discoveries of cosmology is to view the universe from a specific location rather than choosing a reference frame that embraces the entire universe and retains that universal perspective for the entire six days. The clock of Genesis starts with the creation of the universe and continues till the creation of humankind. It must identify the relative passage of time not between particular places in the universe but between moments in the universe as the universe evolved from the big bang.R" moments? Time is not based on moments, but speeds comparing different frames of reference?' Cosmic proper time does not replace conventional time but rather augments itR" No need for another clock at all Three aspects of the universe produce identical effects on radiation frequency. Positive differences in velocity, gravity, and the stretching of space as the universe expands all increase (stretch) the wavelength of radiation. Since the frequency of radiation (and hence the beat of the cosmic clock) is lowered in direct proportion to the increase in wavelength, this increase in wavelength slows the perceived passage of time. The first two of these three phenomena relate to differences in the flow of conventional time — biological time — between specific locations. The third, the universal stretching of space, equally alters the perception of time’s flow as reckoned by the universal cosmic clock. It is with his third aspect, the stretching of space, that I work — as did Nahmanides. That is to say, neither gravity nor velocity enters the calculations that follow.R" Hmm? similar to Setterfield, a faster light ray produces a slower time clock, as does other things? Hmm? No sure. Not smart enough to fathom this kind of thinking. “And the earth was tohu and bohu .. .” (Gen. 1:2). The usual translation of this verse from the book of Genesis is “And the earth was unformed (tohu) and void (bohu).” Unformed or chaotic is a fair translation of tohu. But bohu does not only mean void. Both the Talmud and ahmanides state that bohu means filled with the building blocks of matter.—,—
A more accurate, though cumbersome, translation of Genesis 1:2 is: “And the earth was in a state of chaos but filled with the building blocks of matter.” R" Gnostics would love that wouldn't they? NO, earth was experiencing RA because sinners were there. That stretching of the light waves has slowed the frequency of the cosmic clock — expanded the perceived time between ticks of that clock — by a million million.R" Not smart enough to fathom this kind of thinking. To measure the age of the universe, we look back in time. From our perspective using Earth- based clocks running at a rate determined by the conditions of today’s Earth, we measure a fifteen- billion-year age. And that is correct for our local view. The Bible adopts this Earthly perspective, but only for times after Adam. The Bible’s clock before Adam is not a clock tied to any one location. R" That's funny I thought Creation Week of earth, was tied to earth....so as the stars raced away from earth they look old, yes, get that, a different frame of reference, but on earth inside the spaceship our time is local, so changes to earth is also local. It is a clock that looks forward in time from the creation, encompassing the entire universe, a universal clock tuned to the cosmic radiation at the moment when matter formed. That cosmic timepiece, as observed today, ticks a million million times more slowly than at its inception. The million millionfold stretching of radiation since bohu caused that million-million-to-one ratio in this perception of time.
This cosmic clock records the passage of one minute while we on Earth experience a million million minutes. The dinosaurs ruled the Earth for 120 million years, as measured by our perception of time. Those clocks are set by the decay of radioactive nuclides here on Earth and they are correct for our earthly system But to know the cosmic time we must divide earth time by a million million.R" Why do we also need a cosmic clock and where is this clock located? It has to be no based on earth. SO the only clock we have on earth is a earth based clock, the six 24 hour yom the Jewish commentaries write. But Gerald wants to add more secrets into them. That’s the peer-reviewed physics and the biblical tradition of this discussion. Now for the modern theology. In terms of days and years and millennia, this stretching of the cosmic perception of time by a factor of a million million, the division of fifteen billion years by a million million reduces those fifteen billion years to six days! Genesis and science are both correct. When one asks if six days or fifteen billion years passed before the appearance of humankind, the correct answer is “yes.”
The validity of this approach, cosmic time relative to local time, has been given the stamp of approval both by the prestigious, peer reviewed journal Nature (volume 342, 23; 1989) and the American Journal of Physics (volume 52:2; 1990).R" I will check this out later. The Bible limited its description of this period to the creation, and then to light separating from darkness (Gen. 1 :4). It mentions here an event that appears nowhere else in the entire Hebrew Bible, a one-time phenomenon described as the spirit of God hovering over the universe (Gen. 1 :2). Biblically, this was required to start the making of the universe following its creation. Physics also calls for a one-time phenomenon which it named inflation. This was a sudden and brief expansion of the universe immediately following the big bang. In a minuscule fraction of a second, the universe stretched from its point at creation to a size similar to that of today’s solar system. Shortly thereafter, it is thought, the expansion “settled” into a rate similar to the currently measured value.R" I do not like the way Gerald disrespects the MEDIUM that hovering over our Creation, or its purpose. This is followed by plant life (Gen. 1:11). Though a simple reading of the text implies that all types of plants appeared on this day, kabalah corrects this misunderstanding, stating that “there was no special day assigned for this command for vegetation alone since it is not a unique work.”— Of all the events listed for the six days, this is the only one that tradition states occurred over an extended period not limited to that particular day.R" SO plants emerged from natural laws? Science and Bible are complementary, not mutually exclusive.R" I don't think so. Can be, but science people are generally opposed to divine science. At the Israelite Exodus from Egypt, the Bible tells us that God used a wind that blew all night to split the Sea of Reeds (Ex. 14:21). Why an all-night wind rather than perhaps a hand from heaven? That would have been much more impressive. R" Was it really the Sea of Reeds? God’s reply was short and to the point: “Is anything too hard for the Eternal?” (Gen. 18:14). Rob" Ge 18:14 Is <pala'> any thing <dabar> too hard <pala'> for the LORD <Y@hovah>? Gerald is adding meaning not in the Hebrew? He is Jewish and does not like speaking YHWH, I get his pious nature. I n his closing address, Moses adjures the people to “Remember the days of old, consider the years of each generation” (Deut. 32:7). Kabalah tells us these “days of old” are the six days of Genesis, and “the years of each generation” are the historical records of civilization.^ Understanding the events of our cosmic and social past is a key to discovering the immanence of God. The Bible insists the evidence is there for us to discover God in this world: “ You shall know that I am the Eternal” (Ex. 6:7; Ex. 29:46; Deut. 4:39).
God led the Israelites through the wilderness by a pillar of cloud in the day and a pillar of fire in the night. Cloud and fire, around the clock, inform us that God was leading every step of the way. As they marched directly toward their goal of Mount Sinai, God told the Israelites to change course, to turn around and head back along part of the path they had just traversed (Ex. 14:2). This placed the Israelites in great danger. The Gulf of Akaba/Eilat now blocked their escape from the pursuing Egyptians.R" so if Akaba, why also speak of the Sea of Reeds? H owever improbable we regard this event [ the start of all life] , or any of the steps which it involves, given enough time it will almost certainly happen at least once. And for life as we know it... once may be enough.
Time is in fact the hero of the plot. The time with which we have to deal is of the order of two billion years. What we regard as impossible on the basis of human experience is meaningless here. Given so much time the “impossible” becomes the possible, the possible probable, and the probable virtually certain. One has only to wait: time itself performs the miracles.-
These words were written by Nobel laureate and Harvard University biology professor George Wald and published in the widely read journal Scientific American.
In short, life could not have started by chance. R" correct. The Bible has no problem with this concept of life’s beginnings: “And the Earth brought forth” life (Genesis 1 : 12). In biblical language we are being told that the Earth itself had within it the properties to encourage the emergence of life. There is no biblical mention of a special creation for the origin of life. The laws of nature, created along with the creation of the universe, and the very special conditions on adequate to orchestrate the flow of the universe toward life.
So how can the development of life be explained? R" Why must we know:? Species of modern algae and protozoans have the space in their DNA for this neutral information.
Each of their cells contains as much as one hundred times more DNA than a cell of any mammal, including humans.— R" wow? what does this tell us? Since micro-fossils of primordial algae and protozoans have shape and size similar to modern specimens, it may be inferred that their genetic library was equally large.
The list divides animals into categories: the insects in one place, fish in another, and so forth. In Leviticus 11:18 birds are listed. Among them we find the tinshemet. Twelve verses later (Lev. 1 1 :30), the reptiles are listed. And behold, the tinshemet appears again. The same name, spelled identically ( tuf nun shin mem tuf in the Hebrew) is given for a bird and for a reptile because at one level of biblical meaning the animal fell into both categories.
In the entire Bible, there is the one reference to an animal that falls into two categories, the tinshemet. In the entire fossil record there is one fossil that falls exactly midway between two classes of animals, the archaeopteryx. And both the archaeopteryx and the tinshemet are part reptile, part bird. It is the “link” that never was missing. Rob" Hmm? This move toward order from chaos is not impossible provided the system had direction. There was and still is usable energy present to power the emergence of order. Order out of chaos is, however, such an unusual and improbable trend of events that the Torah mentions it six times.
R" SOunds Gnostic, I prefer God made this functional from the beginning in milliseconds, no need for chaos, no need for natural ra either. Nature strives toward complexity because complexity carries with it survivability through intelligent adaptability. The simplest form of life, bacteria, lacks this feature. Though as a group bacteria have been on Earth longer than any other form of life, as individuals they are not a success story. Their genetic DNA lacks any mechanism to retard or correct for mutant errors in the transcription. Every mutation produces either a new variety or a dead cell. Massive numbers of mutations occur, the overwhelming number of which are nonfit and perish. As a group they survive by sacrifice of the individual.R" I will check if bacteria have error checking DNA systems? Something wrong here? It is possible to explain the hominid fossils that predate Adam as having been placed there as a test by the Creator. And that may be true. There certainly is no way of disproving this hypothesis. Here, I argue from a different tack: that the fossils record a true account of history, that they present no threat to Torah, and most important, that major ancient commentaries anticipated these discoveries.R" wishful thinking on Geralds part? Not sure? When I was first struggling with the questions of our origins, I steeled my courage to ask the renowned biblical scholar, Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein, if it was possible that Adam had an ancestor. Not knowing what to expect, I skirted the issue for a few awkward minutes. When I finally presented the question, his matter-of-fact reply almost bowled me over: “The text of Genesis and the ancient commentaries of Nahmanides on that text certainly [certainly, mind you!] leave the door open for that interpretation.” R" My understanding is God made Adam in minutes from soil Three billion years passed. The universe was now approximately ten billion years old. Thirty thousand light years from the Milky Way’s center and just north of the central plane of the disk, primordial hydrogen that had mixed with the stardust of bygone supernovae agglomerated, drawn together by mutual gravitational attraction. Most of the mass of the agglomeration was drawn into its center. Rob" Time does not age things. Gerald is wrong. Space stretching does not make matter old, the term looks old is OK, as an imaginary idea, but time itself cannot make matter age. Matter does not age, it is measured or perceived to look old. Tell me how can you get an old looking H atom? Or how can a photon age? Its silly to say such things. By 150,000 years ago, Neanderthal had appeared. The fossil record for this period is more complete. Neanderthals were similar to modern humans in many morphological respects. Amain difference was the shape of their skull. Although their cranial capacity was about that of modern humans, 1.4 liters, their jaw was more massive and their brow more sloped than ours. Stone tools found with the fossils appear to have been formed by deliberate chipping, a possible indication of ability to plan and to execute plans.Rob" I saw living Neanderthal man in the poeple of Ranuangi New Britian in PNG back in 1987. Gerald is way off track here. By forty thousand years ago Neanderthal had disappeared, replaced by Cro-Magnon, though the two had coexisted for tens of thousands of years. The morphology of the new hominids was essentially what you and I are today. With the appearance of Cro-Magnon, we find a marked increase in motor skills.
The Hebrew word adam has its root in the Hebrew adamah, meaning soil. The creation of Adam relates to the human soul, the neshama. Since legend tells us that Adam was created twenty years old, is it possible that an Adam-like being lived for those first nineteen years without the neshama, and then became human at twenty with the neshama' s creation? R" My understanding is God made Adam in minutes from soil For Adam, the order was reversed. The fact that Adam was first “made” (Gen. 1 :26) and only later “created” (Gen. 1 :27) informs us unequivocally that some amount of time passed during which Adam was fashioned. The neshama was implanted only after that vessel was complete. Whether that time was measured in microseconds or millions of earth years is not certain from the text. What is certain is that the making of Adam’s body was not instantaneous and that its making preceded the introduction of the neshama. Making takes time. The ultimate change from the final form into a human was instantaneous, the creation of the neshama.Rob" Hmm? chapter 8 In an attempt to explain the amazingly rapid morphological changes observed in the fossil record, theories of evolution today talk of genetic bottlenecks in which very small herds undergo very large mutational changes. The herd’s small size allows a mutation to spread rapidly through it by breeding. But the smaller the herd, the fewer the number of mutations per generation and therefore the greater the number of generations required for a mutation to occur. The larger the herd the more mutations per season, but also, the more generations required for the mutation to spread through the herd. Confirmed evolutionists agree that you just cannot win if the classic concept of randomness at the point molecular level of DNA is the driving force behind the mutations.— The time is just not there.In Genesis 1: 1 we are told: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1:1). In Exodus 3 1 : 17, we learn a significantly different account of our cosmic roots: “For six days the Eternal made the heavens and the earth” (Ex. 3 1 : 17). Is it “In the beginning” the heavens and the earth were created, or is it that it took six days for the heavens and the earth to be made? The objects of the two verbs, created and made, are identical in both verses: “the heavens and the earth.” So we are talking of the same end product.R" too much word games over words.... The universe was first created (Gen. 1:1) and then made (Ex. 31:17). That order was essential. Before the creation there was nothing with which to make. For Adam, the order was reversed. The fact that Adam was first “made” (Gen. 1 :26) and only later “created” (Gen. 1 :27) Hebrew has two words for soul, nefesh and neshama. They are represented by two divine creations mentioned in Genesis 1 : “And God created. . .every animal. . (Gen. 1 :2 1). All animals, humans included, share this first creation related to life. It signifies the infusion of the nefesh, the soul of animal life. A few verses later when the text tells of humans, there is a further creation, one in which lower animals did not share. “And God created the adam. . .” (Gen. 1:27). That creation marks the soul of humankind, the neshama. This dual nature of humankind appears with the first mention of mankind: “And God said let us make adam. . .” (Gen. 1 :26). The “us” refers to the partnership, found in humankind, of the spiritual and material aspects of the world. Man has within him the animal as well as the godly. R" Hmm? Yes man is partnered to God Nahmanides concludes his extensive commentary on the implications of this lamed as: “Or it may be that the verse is stating that [prior to receiving the neshama ] it was a completely living being and [by the neshama ] it was transformed into another man.”— Another man! According to Nahmanides, who is the major kabalistic commentator on the Bible, the biblical text has told us that before the neshama there was something like a man that was not quite a human. R" Not only word games, but letter games too? From these unions came children that “were not human in the true sense of the word. They had not the spirit of God. . .It is acknowledged that a being who does not possess this spirit is not human but a mere animal in human shape and form [!]. Yet such a creature has the power of causing harm and injury, a power which does not belong to other creatures. For those gifts of intelligence and judgment with which he has been endowed for the purpose of acquiring perfection,. . .are used by him for wicked and mischievous ends.”- — R" seems like Gerald is almost speaking of Dave's archon creatures, created by humans? Hmmm? Here we have ancient accepted sources that describe animals with human shape, form, intelligence, and judgment. Suddenly cave paintings that predate Adam by twenty thousand years and ten-thousand-year-old inception of agriculture become understandable. These less-than-human creatures had human-like skills. What they lacked was human spirituality. R" predate Adam by 20,000 years? I don't think so. With whom did Adam have relations? Eve was the only other human woman there. The ancient commentaries imply that there were other mates available to Adam though they were not human. The fossil record might refer to them as Cro-Magnon creatures. Having been deprived of Eve’s spiritual contribution, the offspring of such relations would indeed be less than human. R" weird idea Gerald Creation of the universe from absolute and complete nothing marked the beginning of space, time, and matter. Theology has held that position for over three thousand years. Cosmology in the last decade or so has come to agree. These three parameters are characteristics of our universe, not of the Creator. Just as the biblical God is not composed of space or matter, God is also not bound by time. God is outside of time. And being outside of time means to exist in an “eternal or unending now,” an eternal present that includes past, present, and future simultaneously
Animals have choice because, according to the Bible, animals have a nefesh, and the nefesh provides the freedom to process and evaluate information. Biblically an animal is defined as nefesh hiyah — a living nefesh (Gen. 1:20). R" yes Animals also have intelligence There were all kinds of wonderful trees in the Garden, even one that gave eternal life and another that gave knowledge of good and evil. Now their Master and Maker and Creator had permitted Adam and Eve to eat from every tree therein. Well, almost every tree. There was one that was forbidden: the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And the punishment for eating from that tree was death. Luckily there was a loophole. To get around the promised calamity of death if they transgressed the prohibition, they could eat first from the tree of life and then later from the tree of knowledge. The choice was between eating from a tree that would grant life or from a tree that would bring death. In basic terms the choice was between life and death, not between good and evil. R" correct. It caught Zeng Li by surprise when I showed him where dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. In Genesis 1:21 we are told that on day five God created the basis for all animal life. Among the categories of animals listed is one named taninim gedolim. Gedolim means big, and so we read “the big taninim .” Pickup five different English translations of the Hebrew Bible and you’re likely to find five different meanings for the word taninim: whales, alligators, sea monsters, even dragons. Yet taneen, the singular of taninim, is a word that appears elsewhere in the Bible and its meaning is known. R" Yes, and Gerald says mammals also lived with dinosaurs In Exodus 3, the Eternal spoke to Moses from the burning bush and told him to return to Egypt to lead the enslaved Hebrews to freedom. Moses felt incapable of the task and so the Eternal gave him several signs, one related to his shepherd’s staff. When Moses was told to throw his staff on the ground “it became a nahash ” (Ex. 4:3). Nahash is the Hebrew word for snake. After Moses’ return to Egypt, when Pharaoh asked for a sign, Moses’ staff was again thrown to the ground and “became a taneen ” (Ex. 7:10). Why didn’t it become a nahash, a snake? And just five verses later, the Eternal tells Moses: “Get to Pharaoh in the morning, behold he goes to the water, and stand by the river’s edge and the staff which turned into a nahash take in your hand” (Ex. 7:15). It’s the same staff. The change is first referred to as a nahash, then as a taneen, then as a nahash. We know that nahash means snake from its use elsewhere. Taneen must be a general category of animals since it appears in the creation chapter of Genesis where, other than Adam, only general categories of life are listed. So taneen must be the general category within which nahash — snake — falls. The general category for snakes is reptile. R" Hmm? "The change is first referred to as a nahash, then as a taneen, then as a nahash." Yes the snake is a simile of something else, a serpent creature? In fact the passage of local proper time may be the same in both eras, but due to the stretching of space as the information passed between them (known as the redshift when referring to radiation frequency), the perception of relative time is very different. In this manner, the days of Genesis, as viewed from the start of day one, might indeed remain days and yet contain all the bygone ages of the universe, as we view those ages looking from the present back through the distant reaches of space and time.
Though flood stories are common to many ancient cultures, lines of native American civilizations show no break at the time of the biblical Flood. R" Maybe they lived in the USA after the flood? I do not know of any traditional commentaries that totally satisfy this discrepancy between science and Bible. There are, however, some clues that may be relevant. Nahmanides notes that there may have been persons other than Noah and his family who survived the Flood (based on Gen. 6:4). The ark rested on a mountain in Ararat, a region believed (but not definitely known) to be in Armenia (Gen. 8:4). But as Nahmanides notes, there are many other mountains in the world higher than those of Armenia (on Gen. 8:5). The Mediterranean Sea may not have been affected according to a two-thousand-year-old tradition.- These sources indicate that the flood may have been local, not global. R" Gerald is way off track now, a local flood? Occasionally I hear the complaint: “Why didn’t the biblical calendar become earth-based on day three, when earth appeared?” This is a reasonable, though not a valid, question. The biblical calendar is a given and has been fixed for well over two thousand years. The biblical description of time is the same for the entire six-day period. It changes to earth-based time only near the end of the sixth day, at the creation of the soul of Adam (Gen. 1 :27). The Bible chose to use universal time, not earth-based time, until Adam. We are not here to rewrite the Bible. We are trying to understand it as it is .
R" assumptions, "The Bible chose to use universal time, not earth-based time" Where is the proof for this idea? In a bit of irony the Greek word for big or terrible reptiles is dinosaurus. If Genesis 1:21 were translated into Greek we’d read dinosaurus. R" Maybe -------------------------------------------------- D" This is assuming that you are standing still (static) and the universe is moving away from you Technically – if the light source was moving toward you – time would blue shift (accelerate)R" Gerald explains this with his daughter Hadras. On another world she does homework in 3 minutes, She comes back to earth to meet her friends now aged 3 years more than she has. Only to us looking at the other world does time seem OLD On earth the friend aged 3 years. On another world Hadras aged 3 minutes. Both had normal clocks ticking away. Now if nobody leaves earth and all remains on earth, earth time ticks away a yom at a time. Only looking across space does the time become different. D" Time is not linear – it is dependent upon speed and gravityR" Yes, but each clock ticks away on its own gravity. Earth yoms tick away with a 24 hour period of time. have down right back to Creation Week. Why do you insist in measuring time outside of our reference frame with a different gravity and speed? RP " But on my space ship, nothing about time slows down, because all things are inside the same frame of reference. Can't you see that?D" You are correct and everyone sees thatR" great, than a earth based yom spaceship has it's own clock that is linear with time ticking away one 24 hour period at a time. Our Creation week began around 6000 yoms ago. Simple really. I do not need to fathom the time on another gravity system or speed. D" God is NOT trapped inside your space ship – His frame of reference – His perspective is so much LARGERR" nor do I need to care about God's time or gravity system or speed. D" AN observer on a different reference, say earth, (HEAVEN) trillions of miles (and 7 dimensions) away would see time from my spaceship slowing down. (and/or differently)R" correct. But for us on earth time, we experience a day like all the days before us, Creation started 6000 yoms ago. D" During the first 6.5 Days (Schroeder) – there was only God’s frame of reference – there was no human frame of referenceR" I see. Fair enough. So our first yom from God's view took a billion yoms to reach God's face? Hmm? OK relativity. Our second yom also took a long time to reach God's face? But you are assuming earth was travelling away from God? Not sure I agree. If earth was the centre of the Creation, than earth based time and cosmic based time would be the same yom? D" Now – man looks BACK on those days of creation and they appear to us (the only way we know how to define them) – the only experience of time we have = our frame of referenceR" yes they (the stars) seem to look old. D" Time seems to slow down – take longer – red shift – as we look backwards in timeR" Arrh no, not time in general, just our perception of the age of the stars... D" Psa 90:4 For a thousand years (from the human frame of reference/perspective) = in Your sight (God’s frame of reference/perspective) are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night.R" Yes, God gives us a week for SIN. ROb notes your kind post about maths and Dillon's request. Thanks.
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Post by Dave on Jun 16, 2022 5:29:41 GMT -5
D" Your SDA Great Controversy has two opposing gods opposing each other NOT JEWISH THEOLOGY – NOT SCRIPTURAL
R" Why isn't it scriptural Dave? (1) there are NOT 2 opposing gods struggling against one another in heaven – a COSMIC STRUGGLE Ellen White says
This is a pagan religion born in Iran and India Zorasterism – The God of tov Ahura Masda –vrs- Angra Mainyu (also known as Ahriman)
This is the bases for the pagan religion of Taoism / Daoist – The continuous struggle between Yin and Yang
(2) There is only One God – There is only One God in heaven The Beast – the old serpent – who we call archon were ejected from heaven
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
there are NOT 2 opposing gods struggling against one another in heaven – a COSMIC STRUGGLE Ellen White says
(3)Interesting that your SDA Controversy is between satan and Jesus You claim that Christ cannot be the One True God – Jesus in NOT God incarnate But you claim your Controversy is between your satan and God You claim words matter – you play all types of word games Yet - you preach religious contradiction
(4) there are NOT 2 opposing gods struggling against one another in heaven – a COSMIC STRUGGLE Ellen White says The Beast is the ‘sar’ of the physical WORLD The WORLD is the domain / kingdom of the Beast and all his archon / shedim / Jinn / demons / shades
The controversy – Contest – takes place NOT in heaven – but in the WORLD
There is only One God – There is only One God in heaven The Beast – the old serpent – who we call archon were ejected from heaven in Gen 1:2 And choshek / chaos – ignorance – physical selfishness (yester ra) APPEARED – within physical creation
You just agreed there is an opposing elohiym power before the Father's face. Caesar called himself a god – forced people to worship him as a god – in the end – he was just a man A demon can pretend to be god – he can even do magic tricks – in the end – he is just a demon
something had to become an opposing elohiym power. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
(yester ra) – you refuse to even look at the real definition or meaning of the Hebrew concept
Gerald" So how are we to understand creationism? Biblically, creation is a divine act of tsimtsum, contraction — a spiritual contraction by which the Creator removes part of Its infinite unity ... (google) The tzimtzum or tsimtsum is a term used in the Lurianic Kabbalah to explain Isaac Luria's doctrine that God began the process of creation by "contracting" his Ohr Ein Sof in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which finite and seemingly independent realms could exist. Rob" I can relate to this idea, God moved so the sinning can continue to develop as some sinning creature wanted. NOTHING FORCES GOD TO MOVE – the beast was removed from God’s heaven and thrown into physical creation YES – God separated the Light from the Darkness – absolutely agree
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
My point is some opposing elohiym power began long time ago, Your point is that God tried to make a tov reality – but could not because your satan spoiled id all against God’s Will My point – YES – the Beast that devours appeared and was cast OUT of heaven and into EARTH
there are NOT 2 opposing gods struggling against one another in heaven – a COSMIC STRUGGLE Ellen White says -----------------
D"No created creature ever changed his form and function/purpose against God’s Will – impossible Questions" 1 Can sinning become a change of function ? NO – if you can sin – you were created with the ability to sin – definition of man
2 Can sinning change your form? Ridicules – cows never become pigs – man never turns into a demon - angels never turn into demons – grandma never became an angel with wings
3 For sinning to exist at all, God would have to do something to allow sinning to exist. Correct – he gave man FREE WILL – the ability to choose And there is only one choice – obey God and His commandments or NOT The definition of SIN = obey His commandments or NOT
Answer these questions.... D"No created creature then altered God original Plan against God’s Will – impossible R" I see, than how would a sinning creature sin than? impossible? Answer – by disobeying God’s commandments - he definition of sin - DUH
God only lives in a TOV universe in LOVE. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
The Teaching of the Torah / Gospel written in the first stanza of the Torah God is the Creator Ra exist in the world But God offers the Light out of the darkness of ignorance
And God called it H2896 – טוֹב - ṭôb - good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; SEVEN TIMES Gen 1:4-31 ----------------------------
D"All these ‘other gods’ – are created biological creatures – they are nothing more than demons and devils R" I don't care That is so obvious you have made it veryt clear - you recognise satan as a god
There is no opposing god in heaven opposing God There are only created being within this world that oppose man – keeping man sidetracked so he does not have the time to devote to the Holy Spirit They are not gods - they are just things of this world - and all they have to offer is this world
SO STOP changing the theme THIS IS THE THEME - THERE IS NOT TWO OPPOSING GODS FACING OFF IN HEAVEN D" Your SDA Great Controversy has two opposing gods opposing each other – Ellen Whites Cosmic Struggle NOT JEWISH THEOLOGY – NOT SCRIPTURAL
The idea elevates / promotes a demon to a position of power in heaven 100% satan worship
The idea diminishes God – because God’s Will and God’s Plan can be changed You teach – God tried to make a tov world – BUT COULDN’T – what an insult to the Creator BECAUE your powerful satan god changed it all – spoiled it – you give the credit and praise to the wrong god ------------------
D"...the Torah was not given to the animals R" I beg to differ with you, and so does Gerald. Animals have intellect and reasoning powers to live within the boundaries of love. That love is defined in the directions given by the royal torah, so my friend you are wrong, unless you supply my with verses to the contrary.
Intellect has nothing to do with the Free Will choice to obey God or not If you preach only the intelligent can be saved – you should worry
D"the Torah was not given to the angels – The Torah was not given to the Beast These creatures are the same. There is no Hebrew verse describing the creation or making of shedim as you claim. Give me your scripture where a cow can change into a pig You say beautiful angels of spirit can change into gross looking biological creatures Give me your scripture this can happen If it exist God made it – there is only one Creator ----------------
The writings of Gerald are strange at times" Was it was possible that Adam had an ancestor. “The text of Genesis and the ancient commentaries certainly [certainly, mind you!] leave the door open for that interpretation.” Too often he is swayed by popular Jewish writings outside of the received Hebrew torah. Sorry – Gen 1 = man (Humanoid) – before Gen 2 man (Human Being) = 100% Torah Total agreement with the fossil record Total agreement with Intelligent Design Total agreement with Torah
D"The angel of the Lord murdered all the first born of Egypt R" I told you before, first you have to convince me it was from GOD, which I doubt this. So – who else sent the 10 plagues upon the Egyptians?
Are you suggesting it was your satan that liberated the Jews from Egypt? Exo 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. Exo 9:2 For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still, Exo 9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon
Exo 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, Are you suggesting it was your satan that liberated the Jews from Egypt?
You pray to the wrong god
D” God instructed Israel to perform genocide upon the Amorite from Jericho to Saul R" I told you before, first you have to convince me it was from GOD, which I doubt this.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: Are you suggesting it was your satan that gave the Promised land as heritance?
You pray to the wrong god
D"You refuse to answer why it is a sin to obey God R" This question is an oxymoron and thus cannot be answered. God would never transgress His own royal torah nor ask any creature to do so. So who sent the plagues onto Egypt – including the angel of death? So who commanded Israel to commit genocide? D"You refuse to answer why it is a sin to obey God
D"You speak a bunch of religious talk – the Sabbath came about as God rested on Day 7 R" Can't you dare to discuss with me, not what I am saying. So if Sabbath came about because God rested, than Sabbath existed as a law before God rested. If Day 7 happened on Day 7 then the Sabbath existed before Day 7 – is this your question?
DO you agree with this idea? - NO Days 1 through 6 = God was not resting – He was creating
Next question: Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Who is this opposing elohiym power, that the Father hates ?
And Dave avoids the question, talking about Mammon. Dave quoted Jesu Christ – God incarnate – this answer should be the best answer possible D"Jesus is quoted as saying D"Mammon – money – wealth – fame or fortune - = WORLD R" Dave you did not answer my question.... Do you deny the words of Jesus Christ ? Is money a god to worship Is power and fame a god to worship Is football – or sports – or your academic / political career a god to worship YES – if that is you treasure – your focus – what you think is valuable – what you think is important Anything that draws you away from God toward (yester ra)
None of this requires an angel named satan You are a man- there were times in your life that you LUSTED and DESIRED None of this requires an angel named satan
You are a man – there were times in your life when you – had less than the love of Christ for your boss and your government – you have been angry – you have been malicious None of this requires an angel named satan All it requires is the BEAST of this WORLD and the (yester ra) of your nature
Next question: Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Who is this opposing elohiym power, that the Father hates ?
D"The BEAST is the serpent that deceives the whole WORLD – The WORLD is his kingdom Man is just passing through the WORLD – having a physical experience here – a souljourn R"so Dave, are you saying this opposing elohiym power is the beast power, the serpent, who deceives the whole world, and according to the royal torah, opposes God, because GOD does not want any creature worshipping this elohiym power.
OK – I give in You are correct – God does not want anyone to choose WORLD over a spirituals relationship with Him I will agree to this You are correct – God does not want you to world anything of this world over Him I will agree to this You are correct – God does not want you to bow to the serpent – or devils – or satanas I agree with you - - because God is a jealous God – Royal Law
D" I will not be bothered by false gods – I will not bow to them – I will not honor them – I will not validated them as a god – they are demons – nothing more – they are shedim / archon / Jinn / demons / shades R" correct Then why do you call them god – and say things like I have two gods and two kings As if they were equal in any way Then why do you give them the power to change God’s Plan against God’s Will
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Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2022 10:40:08 GMT -5
RP" First you need to acknowledge that this Beelzebub is actually an opposing elohiym power, opposing the Father. D" I do not acknowledge anyone can oppose God – Beelzebub opposes man
R" SO the Father never wrote absolute immutable laws? These laws were written only for mankind? YES – the Torah was not given to the animals – the Torah was not given to the angels – The Torah was not given to the Beast
The Torah was directly given to man 3 times Before Birth – at Sini – at Pentecost
The angel of the Lord murdered all the first born of Egypt God instructed Israel to perform genocide upon the Amorite from Jericho to Saul You refuse to answer why it is a sin to obey God
Let's test that Dave theory OK? Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. DO you agree these laws had to have existed before mankind existed? Why do I say this, because there is a command to remember Sabbath, and Sabbath is the work of a Creator creating, is to be remembered. So the ten commandments had to have existed before Sabbath was created. DO you agree with this logic? You speak a bunch of religious talk – the Sabbath came about as God rested on Day 7
Next question: Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Who is this opposing elohiym power, that the Father hates ?
Jesus is quoted as saying Mat 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. Mat 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in or steal. Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Mat 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. Therefore if your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. Mat 6:23 But if your eye is bad, your body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! Mat 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick by one and look down on the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
Mammon – money – wealth – fame or fortune - = WORLD
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Be NOT of this WORLD – long for the next
The BEAST is the serpent that deceives the whole WORLD – The WORLD is his kingdom Man is just passing through the WORLD – having a physical experience here – a souljourn
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, Here – WORLD – physicality – our 3D mortal reality
I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. I will not be bothered by false gods – I will not bow to them – I will not honor them – I will not validated them as a god – they are demons – nothing more – they are shedim / archon / Jinn / demons / shades
If God has no law, than God cannot judge. It is also important the judge guards the same laws, otherwise we do not have a fair judge. Correct - Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So who are these opposing elohiym powers, as written in the Ten commandments, that existed before Creation Week), Agreed since Gen 1:2 / Rev 12:1-5
Answer: HAS TO THE CREATURES THAT WARRED IN HEAVEN AND WAS BANISHED TO EARTH, ALONG WITH THE SERPENT, THE CHIEF LEADER OF THE OPPOSING ELOHIYM POWER. Agreed - Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satanas, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
pretend or not pretend, fake / deceivers, creatures, whatever, they have to be opposing elohiym powers, otherwise this law is violated. Now do you agree with me? YES Robert the serpent race = the ‘other gods’ of the Levant
They are not angels – as you define the word They are not – from God messengers – good guy messengers = angels of the Lord They are from the Beast messengers – bad guy messengers = angels of the beast – archon / principalities / demons / devils / satanas
They are not eternal or immortal They are some form of biological creature as described in Gen 3 Don’t skip over scripture
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: - biological Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. – serpent’s seed = offspring
pretend or not pretend, fake / deceivers, creatures, whatever, they have to be opposing elohiym powers, otherwise this law is violated. Now do you agree with me? YES Robert the serpent race = the ‘other gods’ of the Levant YES Robert they are the shedim of King Solomon – they are the archon Gnostic NHL – they are the Principalities of the agl/NT – they are the Jinn of Islam – they are the demons of Christianity – they are VERY REAL – the REALITY OF THE ARCHON
They are not GODS – they are ‘other gods’ – they are demons in disguise pretending to be a god They are created beings – thriving on vanity (yester ra) They are no more a god than Caesar – he is just a man Sure Caesar can kill me – but he can only kill the mortal flesh – not the immortal spirit
My Filipino wife prayed to the Pope until she was 25 – he is just a man and heard nothing and answered nothing The Christian Pope and Christian Rome has killed how many?
Allah is not a God – he is the devil in disguise – pretending to be God Allah is only Baal with a more modern Arabic name Satan is only Baal with a Catholic name Beelzebub is only Baal with a Jewish name
Baal = the god of self (yester ra) if it feels good do it – if you want it take it To prove you worship Baal – human sacrifice – especially the first born baby
Rev 12:4 … the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And why you cannot argue the human sacrifice of Jesus to a Jew A Jew will say – big deal all men die – proof Jesus was just a man
You must argue the Resurrection – because resurrection / reincarnation are Jewish Theology All Jews believe Life Lives
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ proves Life Lives Is Jesus Christ dead – NO – he came back and walk and talk with the disciples for up to 50 days Jesus Christ is NOT dead – He is alive and well working miracles in the WORLD every day Jesus Christ is NOT dead = Life Lives and the Resurrection is the Proof
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Deliberate – God’s Plan – God’s Will – necessary to prove jesus was tempted just like any man
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Proof Jesus Christ is God incarnate
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
The WORLD – the devils Kingdom – it is all your satan has to offer – just WORLD
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Proof Jesus Christ was God incarnate
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. YEP – reject – deny – do not elevate in any way – do not validate – look upon the snake on the pole and it becomes just a snake in the grass – a nuisance – an obstacle
Your SDA Great Controversy has two opposing gods opposing each other NOT JEWISH THEOLOGY – NOT SCRIPTURAL – your god of evil is a Catholic Invention
Elevating a demon to godhood – while diminishing the sovereignty of God NONSENCE SATAN WORSHIP No created creature ever changed his form and function/purpose against God’s Will – impossible No created creature then altered God original Plan against God’s Will – impossible
It is all God’s Plan – it is All God’s Will If God made a thing – it remains If God made you for a predestine purpose – you cannot escape God’s Plan for your life – Jonah
God is Absolute – there is Only One True God He made it all by Him for Him = nothing exist that was not made by Him for Him – His pleasure
All these ‘other gods’ – are created biological creatures – they are nothing more than demons and devils YES – they can do parlor tricks – wind / rain / fertility / strength in battel – it is JUST WORLD Who cares – Only God is the Creator – Only God can save your immortal soul – Only God came to earth incarnate to Prove Life Lives
There is no escape to the restful sleep of the grave We will all meet our maker – SOONER not LATER We will all answer for our DEEDS – WORKS – and FRUIT → First Resurrection Or we will receive the Divine Pardon through Christ → First Fruits Or - our DEEDS – WORKS → throw us into the Lake of Fire – the Second Death
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