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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2022 17:23:45 GMT -5
D" Except you have posted more than once – you god had to react to your satan R" Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? You answer this first.
D"So the New Heaven and Earth contain the choshek of Gen 1:2 R" If the sun is 7 times brighter than ours is today the darkness vanishes.
D"Angels stay angels – they do not turn into demons R" Correct, they have been termed shad, (breast ) because they respond to the masculine provider the chief opposer, who provides the angels with sinning, thus they do more sinning and become milk providers of sinning influence to humans also. The Hebrew Jewish spelling shedim is wrong, the word is spelt shad, meaning breast.
A demon is an angel who sins.
D"TIME – is your only argument – why not argue the evidence insteadWhy must Rom 1:19 and Psa 19:2 be wrong? R" Time is something you ignore, you also ignore global flood, not some local flood. You also ignore prophetic time as well as local earth yom time.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 10, 2022 0:14:40 GMT -5
D" Except you have posted more than once – your god had to react to your satan R" Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? You answer this first.
God made a Plan – and God told man His Plan Gen 2:16 Then Adonai Elohim commanded the man saying, “From all the trees of the garden you are most welcome to eat. Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die!”
God made a Plan – and God told man His Plan And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world – Authoritarian Teaching
R" Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? God’s Plan was always God’s Plan – put in place before the creation of man It is up to man to react – to obey – or NOT = Man’s Free Will choice
D"So the New Heaven and Earth contain the choshek of Gen 1:2 R" If the sun is 7 times brighter than ours is today the darkness vanishes. So the future is different than the past – So how can you use the future to prove the past?
D"TIME – is your only argument – why not argue the evidence instead Why must Rom 1:19 and Psa 19:2 be wrong? R" Time is something you ignore, you also ignore global flood, not some local flood. You also ignore prophetic time as well as local earth yom time.
If your only defense is to misrepresent me and others – you just appear foolish and desperate - as well as - insulting - Christian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 5:26:31 GMT -5
"R" Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? D" God’s Plan was always God’s Plan – put in place before the creation of man It is up to man to react – to obey – or NOT = Man’s Free Will choice R" You did not answer my question.
Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react?
Try an answer the question please.
DP"So the New Heaven and Earth contain the choshek of Gen 1:2 RP" If the sun is 7 times brighter than ours is today the darkness vanishes. D" So the future is different than the past – So how can you use the future to prove the past? R" God does not change. Why is our sun seven times less bright than it should be? Answer" Because it allows darkness to exist. Question" Why must darkness exist? Answer" Because some creatures are wanting to sin, so GOD leaves them alone, causing the light of GOD to be dimmer (God reacts to the sinner's sinnings) and thus we have "the choshek of Gen 1:2"
Not as you claim a natural part and a natural design of GOD intentionally creating a flawed world.
D" If your only defense is to misrepresent me and others – you just appear foolish and desperate - as well as - insulting - Christian R" I do not mock you or rave on bringing up your faults and theories over and over to insult you. But Dave mocks me often.... you bring up the same misquoted remarks over the over. We have discussed many things and that should be the end of it. You ignored my presentation and did not discuss or critique my presentation, only mocked it. I have given you solid answers from Scripture how time is, and thus we have been through this already. So I suggest to you drop bringing up the same old discussions we never finalized because you didn't want to.
Now try to answer my question again
Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react?
This question relates to the very first free will creature that ever chose to sin.
Try to imagine that humans are not the only creature with free will.
Ben elohiym also refers to angels are you claim, than angels have free will. Try and be consistent , imagine a creature with free will wanting to sin....
Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react?
Imagine, would a sinning creature exist? Or immediately cease to exist?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 10, 2022 12:51:45 GMT -5
"R" Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? D" God’s Plan was always God’s Plan – put in place before the creation of man It is up to man to react – to obey – or NOT = Man’s Free Will choice R" You did not answer my question. Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? Try an answer the question please. This is the fundamental difference between usJudaism and therefore Christianity has and absolute CreatorD:" R" Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change notIsa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? Isa 14:27 For Adonai-Tzva’ot has purposed, so who will annul it? Since His hand is stretched out, who will turn it back? Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. Job 42:2 I know You can do all things; no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained. This is the fundamental difference between us Judaism and therefore Christianity has and absolute CreatorThe idea that your satan god can force the Creator to change is rejected The idea that man can force the Creator to change / respond / react / alter His Plan is rejected The idea that the Creator plays second fiddle to your satan god is rejected Your teaching of a weak god and and a strong satan is rejected "R" Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react?NO – in no way – not in any form or fashionD" God’s Plan was always God’s Plan – put in place before the creation of man It is up to man to react – to obey – or NOT = Man’s Free Will choice Man had a choice – choose obedience and Paradise – or choose disobedience and death God’s Plan was always God’s Plan – and given to man before sinGen 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God made a Plan – and God told man His PlanAnd before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world – Authoritarian TeachingYour teaching that man and angels are able to push God around and force God to change is rejectedThe more you promote this doctrine – the more I will resist / reject it -------------------------- DP"So the New Heaven and Earth contain the choshek of Gen 1:2 R" God does not change. Why is our sun seven times less bright than it should be? Answer" Because it allows darkness to exist. ABSOLUTE made up religious gobbelity gook – scripture pleaseD" If your only defense is to misrepresent me and others – you just appear foolish and desperate - as well as - insulting - Christian R" I do not mock you R" Time is something you ignore, you also ignore global flood, not some local flood. This Forum is dedicated to WEDD + FD-WEDT + Incremental Creation + The Logarithmic Days of Creation - and secondarily the Reality of the ArchonKeep your mocking and your insults top yourself - Christian AND PLEASE STOP MISREPRESENTING ME AND OTHERS – it is a false witness – it is a sin If your only defense is to misrepresent me and others – you just appear foolish and desperate - as well as - insulting - Christian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 18:05:54 GMT -5
D" This Forum is dedicated to WEDD + FD-WEDT + Incremental Creation + The Logarithmic Days of Creation - and secondarily the Reality of the Archon
R" Your welcome to your theories of Creation, I do not take them from you, Gerald Schroeder makes a similar theory to yours. You are both welcome to them. We have discussed, and yet our views remain different. I do not mock your view or Schroders view, only that they are different from my view. And if I ever speak of Dave and your view of Creation, I would present it as you have written, I would not mock your view, or Schroder's view. People are entitled to any theory of faith they like. I hope that ends your agitation.
D" Your teaching that man and angels are able to push God around and force God to change is rejected
R" You seem to think a creature pushes God around? I hardly think so.
Think of the parable of the lost sheep. So God does nothing? I don't think so.
Think of the one who left heaven to sin. The Father did nothing? I don't think so.
Nobody can force God to do anything, love is not a force, but sure does many things. Including seeking a sinning creature.
RP " Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? D" NO – in no way – not in any form or fashion
R" I feel for you....
In the parable of the sinless person who wanted to leave His Father and sin
1) The Father had to sell up 1/2 of property and give it to the sinless son 2) The Father had to endure living away from the son, while he sinned 3) The Father looked out every day for hours looking for him to return 4) The Father RAN towards the sinner and fell compassion over him 5) The Father gave him a ring of acceptance 6) The father made a feast of joy 7) The Father had to reconcile the other sinless son, all it well
If a Father does thus for a sinner returning, what does a Father do for a wicked one who refuses to return?
You need to answer the question again, using Scripture....
When the wicked one refused, did the father leave them to rot at 2 degrees Calvin? No The father created a world for them around them, perfect as it could be, for their kingdom-earth Than the father created another free will creature to give these sinning creatures something to do. Hence a battle, controversy over sin of the free will. In order to witness over SIN.
When the father saw the mischief was unfair to humans, God volunteered to die for the mischief so sinning humans had a second chance.
I see kindness all the way, and God knows the future and planned it all anyway. However the players do not know the future and do as they seem fit.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 11, 2022 4:31:02 GMT -5
D" This Forum is dedicated to WEDD + FD-WEDT + Incremental Creation + The Logarithmic Days of Creation - and secondarily the Reality of the Archon R" Your welcome to your theories of Creation, I do not take them from you, Gerald Schroeder makes a similar theory to yours. You are both welcome to them. WOW – we have your permission
I do not mock your view or Schroders view You misrepresented him in spades – for years And if I ever speak of Dave and your view of Creation, I would present it as you have written Then why do you misrepresent me to me
We have discussed, and yet our views remain different. only that they are different from my view. Correct – you must deny reality and scripture to hold your view as valid ------------
D" Your teaching that man and angels are able to push God around and force God to change is rejected R" You seem to think a creature pushes God around? I hardly think so. WHAT? You teach – all of God’s tov creation was change because of your satan You teach – that all of biology changed because of your statan You teach – your satan spoiled God’s Plan- forced God to react You teach - a cosmic battel between two gods in heaven
Rom 1:19 + Psa – is not evidence of God’s creation it is only evidence of the change to God’s creation because of your satan --------------------
RP " Question: When a sinning creatures sins, does God have to react? D" NO – in no way – not in any form or fashion
R" I feel for you.... BINGO - you cannot teach God is sovereign – if your satan can force Him to react and change
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 16:44:04 GMT -5
D" WOW – we have your permissionR" My respect, D" Then why do you misrepresent me to meR" I have said I liked your WEDD + FD-WEDT + Incremental Creation didn't I? I just point out Scripture where you wander off track. D" Correct – you must deny reality and scripture to hold your view as validR" Hmm? That is our right to choose. You deny Ezek 28 a poetry simile you refuse to adopt, yet you speak of sinning angels? This proves to me I am right and your omission and confusion helps my cause. However in your defense, you have taught me many things I didnt know, so thank you D" W HAT? You teach – all of God’s tov creation was change because of your satan You teach – that all of biology changed because of your statan You teach – your satan spoiled God’s Plan- forced God to react You teach - a cosmic battel between two gods in heavenR" If God created free will for ALL creatures, this implies GOD understood the pathway of sin and sin's affects. So nothing is new with God, not even choosing to sin. R" I feel for you....D" BINGO - you cannot teach God is sovereign – if your satan can force Him to react and changeR" In the parable of the sinless person who wanted to leave His Father and sin 1) The Father had to sell up 1/2 of property and give it to the sinless son 2) The Father had to endure living away from the son, while he sinned 3) The Father looked out every day for hours looking for him to return 4) The Father RAN towards the sinner and fell compassion over him 5) The Father gave him a ring of acceptance 6) The father made a feast of joy 7) The Father had to reconcile the other sinless son, all it well But Dave teaches the Father does not react to sinners or sinning? If a Father does thus for a sinner returning, what does a Father do for a wicked one who refuses to return? You need to answer the question again, using Scripture.... When the wicked one refused, did the father leave them to rot at 2 degrees Calvin? No The father created a world for them around them, perfect as it could be, for their kingdom-earth Than the father created another free will creature to give these sinning creatures something to do. Hence a battle, controversy over sin of the free will. In order to witness over SIN. When the father saw the mischief was unfair to humans, God volunteered to die for the mischief so sinning humans had a second chance. I see kindness all the way, and God knows the future and planned it all anyway. However the players do not know the future and do as they seem fit. But Dave teaches the Father does not react to sinners or sinning? Not even to wicked sinnings?Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 12, 2022 5:21:44 GMT -5
R" My respect, D" Then why do you misrepresent me to me Some strange form of Christian respect D" Correct – you must deny reality and scripture to hold your view as valid R" Hmm? That is our right to choose. Why choose ignorance over the empirical evidenceWhy must Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 + thousands of museums filled with empirical evidence – all be denied to keep you doctrine valid? ------------------ R" If God created free will for ALL creatures, this implies GOD understood the pathway of sin and sin's affects. So nothing is new with God, not even choosing to sin. So – you teach that every form of biology ever created CHOSE to oppose god You teach that all creation opposes your god R" I feel for you.... D" BINGO - you cannot teach God is sovereign – if your satan can force Him to react and change If a Father does thus for a sinner returning, what does a Father do for a wicked one who refuses to return? You need to answer the question again, using Scripture.... God’s Plan was always God’s Plan – no one ever forced God to change / alter / revise His PlanGen 2:16 Then Adonai Elohim commanded the man saying, “From all the trees of the garden you are most welcome to eat. Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die!” But Dave teaches the Father does not react to sinners or sinning? Not even to wicked sinnings?Correct – God does not have to react – God laid down the LAW from the beginningGod does not change – and no one – not even your angel can force God the change / alter / react / or revise His Plansov·er·eign1. a supreme ruler, especially a monarch. Similar: monarch, supreme ruler, Crown, crowned head, head of state, potentate 2. possessing supreme or ultimate power. Similar: supreme, absolute, unlimited, unrestricted, unrestrained, unbounded, boundless, infinite, ultimate, total, unconditional, full, utter, paramount, principal, chief, dominant, predominant, ruling, royal, regal, kingly, monarchical
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2022 16:56:57 GMT -5
D" Some strange form of Christian respect R" Would you rather I leave you alone in your confusion?
D" So – you teach that every form of biology ever created CHOSE to oppose god R" When God cursed the ground, what does that mean, after Adam sinned?
It means the entire Creation went over to the Opposer, who now rules it, as well as man.
How does a weak pathetic opposing elohiym power rule over the Creation, well the Spoiler spoils. down hill , loss of DNA information, chaos , a wearing out of things.
All DNA is impacted by this missing of God's power. D" You teach that all creation opposes your god
R" No, stop assuming. Read the above sentences. All DNA is impacted by this missing of God's power. Not their fault, it causes behaviour change as the DNA changes. Does to humans too, its called epi-genetics, a Hebrew word too "aven".
D" God laid down the LAW from the beginning R" what law, I thought God has no universal law, according to your view?
Question, DId Adam keep the very first Sabbath on day 7 of Creation? If he did, where's your law?
D" Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die!” R" What law requires this verse?
Can only be this one
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a simile of the opposing elohiym power. DO you agree?
D" God does not change – and no one – not even your angel can force God the change / alter / react / or revise His Plan R" Question, when a sinner sins, does God react?
Question, a million years before the sinner begins thinking to sin under free will choice, did God plan for this already in His design of Creating Free Will?
Therefore if the design is already planned before hand, the Father has emotions to react to the free will and thus the sinning. Are you so cruel?
Dave cries when the daughter brings home a baby granddaughter. Dave gets angry when a daughter throws a tantrum and storms out never to return.
If you design free will, you design love and you design emotional reactions to that action of love. God gets sad when sinners sin, how can you be so cruel?
"God does not change" God cries when sinners sin, how can you be so cruel?
The Father looked every day for the lost son to return, "God does not change" how can you be so cruel?
D" sov·er·eign 1. a supreme ruler, especially a monarch. R" Does sovereign also mean , unable to sin? If the majority of creatures are robotic they are unable to sin, hence the Father need not love them. SO according to Dave the Father does not love the angels, only loves humans, the only ones to have free will.
What is free will anyway? a choice? must be more than choice? decision ? thinking? Can Dave define this term?
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 12, 2022 22:49:36 GMT -5
D" So – you teach that every form of biology ever created CHOSE to oppose god R" When God cursed the ground, what does that mean, after Adam sinned?Gen 3:17 Then to the man He said, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate of the tree which I commanded you, saying, ‘You must not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground because of you—with pain will you eat of it all the days of your life. Gen 3:18 Thorns and thistles will sprout for you. You will eat the plants of the field, Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow will you eat food, until you return to the ground, since from it were you taken. For you are dust, and to dust will you return.” R" When God cursed the ground, what does that mean, after Adam sinned?It means that life will be hard – and man will have to work for it R" When God cursed the ground, what does that mean, after Adam sinned? It means the entire Creation went over to the Opposer, who now rules it, as well as man. D" So – you teach that every form of biology ever created CHOSE to oppose godHow does a weak pathetic opposing elohiym power rule over the Creation,You do NOT teach a weak and pathetic opposing godD" you teach two equivalent gods in a controversyR" twist again, since when is an opposer equal to the one it opposes? The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe.
GOD’S RIGHT TO RULE THE UNIVERSE?R" Have you never read the opposes objective? Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler. D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy well the Spoiler spoils. down hill , loss of information, chaos , a wearing out of things.You speak of ENTROPY – but have denied it for 3 yearsD" You teach that all creation opposes your god R" No, stop assuming. Read the above sentences. R” It means the entire Creation went over to the Opposer, who now rules it, as well as man.D" Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die!” R" What law requires this verse?DUH – the commandment NOT to eat of that tree
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2022 4:44:58 GMT -5
D"How does a weak pathetic opposing elohiym power rule over the Creation, You do NOT teach a weak and pathetic opposing god D" you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy R" No I don't. Stop assuming and mocking Dave.
D"You speak of ENTROPY – but have denied it for 3 years R" You preached God creates with natural entropy, ....very different to God cursing Creation, hence entropy comes over the Creation because of God's cursing Creation.
My view has entropy coming out of SIN. Very different to your view. ----------------------------------
You fail to read my previous post
D" DUH – the commandment NOT to eat of that tree R" You assume that was the only LAW for Adam.
The LAW defining changing from one elohiym to another elohiym power, yes, but Adam had other laws governing his duty to love. COnsider these questions below:-
1) Question, DId Adam keep the very first Sabbath on day 7 of Creation?
2) Question: "the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" is a simile of the opposing elohiym power. DO you agree?
3) Question, a million years before the sinner begins thinking to sin under free will choice, did God plan for "free will sinning" already in His design when Creating Free Will?
4) "God does not change" God cries when sinners sin, how can you be so cruel? The Father looked every day for the lost son to return, "God does not change" how can you be so cruel?
5) Does sovereign also mean , unable to sin? If the majority of creatures are robotic they are unable to sin, hence the Father need not love them. SO according to Dave the Father does not love the angels, the Father only loves humans, the only ones to have free will. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 13, 2022 8:31:05 GMT -5
D"How does a weak pathetic opposing elohiym power rule over the Creation, You do NOT teach a weak and pathetic opposing god D" you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy R" No I don't. Stop assuming and mocking Dave. The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe. GOD’S RIGHT TO RULE THE UNIVERSE? R" Have you never read the opposes objective? Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler. D"You speak of ENTROPY – but have denied it for 3 years R" You preached God creates with natural entropy,Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being. Isa 45:5 I am Adonai—there is no other. Besides Me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known Me, Isa 45:6 so they may know, from the rising to the setting of the sun, that there is no one besides Me. I am Adonai—there is no other. Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things. My view has entropy coming out of SIN. Very different to your view.CORRECT – I only have One True Creator – you have two – one for tov and one for ra---------------------------------- You fail to read my previous post D" DUH – the commandment NOT to eat of that tree R" You assume that was the only LAW for Adam. This is the Law that Eve disobeyed - that resulted in Rom 5:122) Question: "the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" is a simile of the opposing elohiym power. DO you agree? IT IS THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE of good and evil3) Question, a million years before the sinner begins thinking to sin under free will choice, did God plan for "free will sinning" already in His design when Creating Free Will? IT IS ALL GOD’S PLAN – IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD’S PLAN – GOD IS SOVEREIGN – GOD IS IN CONTROL
THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD – no one makes Him change – deviate – react – revise – or adjustDoes sovereign also mean , unable to sin? It does for God SIN = disobeying God or transgressing His commandment YES – God is unable to not obey Himself
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2022 16:55:19 GMT -5
D" 2) Question: "the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" is a simile of the opposing elohiym power. DO you agree? D" IT IS THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE of good and evil R" Afraid to answer the question, is the tree a simile / representation of the opposing elohym power?
RP" 3) Question, a million years before the sinner begins thinking to sin under free will choice, did God plan for "free will sinning" already in His design when Creating Free Will? D" IT IS ALL GOD’S PLAN – IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD’S PLAN – R" THAN (since you agree with me) If the father designed the free will with ability to sin, than the father will react to the sinning and emotions from that sinning. You goofed, the Father does change, react. He plans and because He plans, He acts and reacts. He waited every day for the prodigal to return, react.
D" THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD – no one makes Him change – deviate – react – revise – or adjust R" wow you are stubborn, or arrogant.
The Father does act, react , get emotional when a sinner sins.
He has to, because you agreed He designed free will with the ability to sin, therefore the Father must react to his own designing.
D" YES – God is unable to not obey Himself R" Yes correct, but creatures can sin and disobey God, and God reacts to their sinning, what on earth is repentance?
Is a process of action and reaction on both parties?
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This messanic email came in today,
it totally blow your One Father trinity, three clones of the Father idea out of the water.
The Jews knew of two Beings of elohiym all along, but refuse to acknowledge this.
I quote "
"From the beginning with wisdom the Memra (Word) of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth … And the Memra (Word) of the LORD said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light by His Memra (Word). (Genesis 1:1–3; Targum Neofiti) In this Targum, the Word or Memra is doing, being, and acting as God and yet we see that he is also with God, a distinct essence apart from Him. In fact, the Memra is the one who rested after all his work: “On the seventh day, the Memra of the LORD completed his work which he had created, and there was Sabbath.” (Genesis 2:3; Targum Neofiti) The Apostle John grabbed hold of this very Jewish understanding of the Memra (Word of the LORD) to introduce Messiah Yeshua, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God. He writes: “In the beginning was the Memra/Word, and the Memra/Word was with God, and the Memra/Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being.” (John 1:1–3) John is telling Jewish readers that Yeshua as the Word of God is responsible for bringing forth life from the very beginning of our world. But John doesn’t stop there. He reveals even deeper truths about this Word using the Jewish understanding of light.
“In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.” (John 1:4) In a Hebrew poem called “The Four Nights,” the Targums write that on the First Night of creation, when darkness spread over the surface of the deep, “the Memra/Word of the LORD shone and gave light.” (fragmentary Targums P and V) In other words, the Word of the LORD not only created light, it is Light itself. This poem was part of the Passover liturgy among many of the Jews living in and around Jerusalem at the time, so when John refers to the Word as light, he is reminding them that the Light of this Word is so powerful, not even the darkness of space could overcome it. As we follow the Light into the book of Exodus, we see the Memra (Word of the LORD) lighting up the night for the Israelites in a pillar of fire, leading them to safety. At the same time, the Memra (Word of the LORD) also remained in the cloud, keeping them in darkness. (Exodus 13:21–22, 14:19–20, 23–25) In a form the Israelites could finally see and understand, the darkness (Egyptians) could not overcome the light (Israelites and the Word of the LORD). The Jewish People could finally see how Light and God's salvation from darkness were inseparable.
The Memra (Word) Lived Among Us "The [Memra] Word became flesh and lived among us." (John 1:14) Israel not only lived under earthly darkness of Roman rule, they lived in spiritual darkness of their own sins. To save them from that spiritual oppression, "the true light that gives light to everyone" came into the world, freely offering it to anyone who accepted it. "My light will shine for you just a little longer," Yeshua said. "Walk in the Light while you can, so the darkness will not overtake you. (John 12:35; see also John 8:12, 12:46) Sadly, even when the Light walked among them, too many “loved darkness instead of light.” (John 1:11, 3:19) Still, Yeshua pleaded with them, "Believe in the Light, so that you may become Children of Light." (John 12:36)
Children of Light don't stumble and fall on the dark path through the woods of anger, jealousy, deceit, greed, gossip, and all those deeds that lead us away from entering God's Kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:9). Children of Light walk upright, on the path that is brightly lit by the Word of God Himself. That path leads straight into our Father's house. Yeshua "came to His own creation," seeking sinners who would repent and enter the Light of God's Kingdom with Him. "Yet His own people did not receive Him." (John 1:11)
The Memra (Word) Is the Door to Salvation The One who saves people out of eternal darkness into the light of eternal life has always been the Memra—the Word. In the Targums, God established His covenant between Abraham and the Memra. (Genesis 9:12–15, Targums Onkelos and Palestine) And Abraham believed in the name of the Memra (Word of the LORD), and the LORD counted it to Him as righteousness. (Genesis 15:6, Targum Neofiti) This Divine power of the Memra to save someone from the eternal darkness of their sins is not a new concept for the Jewish People. This Targum says the Memra would be thought of as a deity: “My Memra (Word) shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people." (Targum Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12, as quoted in Jewish Encyclopedia)
If there is still any doubt who this redeemer deity is, one Targum written 200–600 years after Yeshua gives us a striking clue: “When the Word of the LORD (Memra) shall be revealed to redeem his people, he shall say to all the nations, ‘See now that I am he who is and was, and I am he who will be in the future.…’ and he, by his Word (Memra), will make atonement for the sins of his land and of his people.’” (Deuteronomy 32:39, 43; Targum Pseudo Jonathan) Throughout the Gospel of John, Yeshua gives more than clues about His identity as the saving Word that would atone for the sins of the people. He tells us that He is the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Gate, the Door, the Shepherd, the Light. (John 8:12, 10:9, 10:11, 14:6) He says that He is the One who is and was and will be—“Before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58)
“As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world,” Yeshua said, as He brought forth light to a blind man (John 9). Yeshua is still offering His healing light to the Jewish People so that they can see Him for who He really is—their long-awaited Messiah, their atonement, their redeemer. It is our privilege to continue the work that John so valiantly began and share the identity of the Light, the Word, the Memra that was with God and is God with the Jewish People—Yeshua. We are bringing Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) to the Jewish People through articles like these and the development of the Messianic Prophecy Bible, which will highlight not only the prophecies of Yeshua’s coming in the Hebrew Scriptures but also in the Targums. Rob, you, too, can be a part of this great move of God’s Word in these end times to reach the Jewish People. "How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, 'Your God reigns!'" (Isaiah 52:7)
The Father and the Memra, are divine beings, members of the heavenly elohiym.
Your idea of three clones of the Father is wrong.
Messanic Jews would disagree with you, three clones of the Father idea.
They can't be three expressions as one is on earth in bodily form while another is in heaven in a shape we do not know, hence two different locations, so the expressions idea is not valid, however I use "clones" to make two shapes of the father exist in two different locations both at the same time and place. Gen 19:24 Also one prays to another in the NT.
How you clone a Father to be a HS feminine Being, is another notion you fail to define?
The targums clearly show another divine being apart from the Father. The memra, Jesus.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2022 7:55:02 GMT -5
D" 2) Question: "the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" is a simile of the opposing elohiym power. DO you agree? D" IT IS THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE of good and evil R" Afraid to answer the question, is the tree a simile / representation of the opposing elohym power? NO ROBERT IT IS NOT ABOUT TWO OPPOSING GODS It is knowledge (gnosis) understanding of the consequences of disobedience / SINRP" 3) Question, a million years before the sinner begins thinking to sin under free will choice, did God plan for "free will sinning" already in His design when Creating Free Will? D" IT IS ALL GOD’S PLAN – IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD’S PLAN –You goofed, the Father does change, react. D:" R" Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not Please decide which doctrine you preach today – different than yesterday – and will change again tomorrow – do you know what you believe?D" THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD – no one makes Him change – deviate – react – revise – or adjust R" wow you are stubborn, or arrogant. Unlike you – I accept scripture – I do not have to rewrite it to fit my doctrineD:" R" Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not The Father does act, react , get emotional when a sinner sins.YES – I am sure when we sin the Father is disappointed with us / in us This does not cause God to alter His Plan in any shape form or fashionR" Yes correct, but creatures can sin and disobey God, and God reacts to their sinning, what on earth is repentance?YES – It makes the Father happy / joyous when the Prodigal Son retunes of his own Free Will This does not cause God to alter His Plan in any shape form or fashion------------------------------------------------------------------- This messanic email came in today, it totally blow your One Father trinity, three clones of the Father idea out of the water."From the beginning with wisdom the Memra (Word) of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth … And the Memra (Word) of the LORD said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light by His Memra (Word). (Genesis 1:1–3; Targum Neofiti)
In this Targum, the Word or Memra is doing, being, and acting as God and yet we see that he is also with God, a distinct essence apart from Him. In fact, the Memra is the one who rested after all his work:YES – this is Christianity 101Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was madeThe Apostle John grabbed hold of this very Jewish understanding of the Memra (Word of the LORD) to introduce Messiah Yeshua, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God. He writes:Yeshua, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God.YES – ABSOLUTELY = Trinity In other words, the Word of the LORD not only created light, it is Light itself.Robert calls this modality – so he ca mock the TrinityThe Memra (Word) Lived Among Us "The [Memra] Word became flesh and lived among us." (John 1:14) Yeshua "came to His own creation," seeking sinners who would repent and enter the Light of God's Kingdom with Him. "Yet His own people did not receive Him." (John 1:11)YES – Jesus Christ = God incarnate = Trinity Robert absolutely denies that the Word became FleshThe Memra (Word) Is the Door to Salvation The One who saves people out of eternal darkness into the light of eternal life has always been the Memra—the Word.YES – TRINITY – GOD = the ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR = Christ Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Rob, you, too, can be a part of this great move of God’s Word in these end times to reach the Jewish People.It’s true Robert – as a Jewish Messiah believer – you could witness to the Jews But you choose to deny everything they teach and replace it with some form of satan worship Your idea of three clones of the Father is wrong. Messanic Jews would disagree with you, three clones of the Father idea.More of Robert’s misrepresentation I am a Trinitarian (3=1 / 1=3) – just as this Messianic Jewish email indicates------------- As I re-read this - I know Robert is going to be all confused withYeshua, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God.YES – ABSOLUTELY = Trinity My Right Hand is apart from my Left Hand My Right Hand is seperate from My Left Hand With my Right Hand I can pat my head - with my Left Hand I can rub my tummy Each Hand can be doing something different and seperate - at the same time Play a piano - or a gutar - or any musical instument Each Hand can be doing something different and seperate - at the same time Yeshua, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God. - The Right Hand Holy Spirit, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God - The Left hand I am a Trinitarian (3=1 / 1=3) – just as this Messianic Jewish email indicates
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2022 16:05:05 GMT -5
D" NO ROBERT IT IS NOT ABOUT TWO OPPOSING GODSR" I didn't say this did I? You twist and mock my words, can't you discuss my discussion? Instead you invent your own words. Question: "the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" is a simile of the opposing elohiym power. DO you agree?The question does NOT say elohiym power is a "god" or a picture of "THE G_D", stick to the words of my question, stop assuming things.
Why do I make my question like this? Because Hebrew compels me to... Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other "oppposing elohiym powers" before me. DO you agree with Jeff Benner and me, that this verse is written correctly here in English? DO you also agree with ten commandment verse was written when Sabbath was written, the day before man even existed, so the commandments do NOT reference humans, so this oppposing elohiym power" has to be something else. DO you agree with this idea? You have agreed with me the oppposing elohiym powers" refers to SHAD, the simile of breast fuunction creatures pretending to provide milk as a creator might, hence elohiym power, but these SHAD are NOT creators, NOT G_D and have no powers at all like G_D. so are no equivalent to G_D, at all. And the only "milk" these SHAD provide to humans is the "milk of RA, that leads to sinning" Do you agree with this idea, more or less? Now who is the SHAD, also termed "serpent" or "beast" or "dragon" ? And where do they come from? I will come to this origin idea later. Now the two trees has to represent the two elohiym powers (notice how I use my words, stick to the words the Bible uses). One tree is called "tree of living" hence describes G_D. Do you agree with this description? The other tree is described as the knowledge of "tov and ra" to describe the opposing elohiym power, who could only talk from his tree in the Garden. Do you agree with this description? -------------------------------- D" D" IT IS ALL GOD’S PLAN – IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD’S PLAN – You goofed, the Father does change, react. robertt Avatar Jul 8, 2022 at 8:01am robertt said: D:" R" Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not Please decide which doctrine you preach today – different than yesterday – and will change again tomorrow – do you know what you believe?R" Oh so now you mock me again, because the father does not change, he does not react, so this verse confirms Dave's view? Is this why you posted this mocking? In my view the Father planned free will and thus planned the ability to have sinning, so planned to rescue those from sinning (repent) and thus GOD designed free will and the reaction to sinning should it ever happen, so the verse GOD changes NOT refers to the fact GOD, does not change "his reaction" to things. DO you discuss your discussions or are you afraid to? D" Unlike you – I accept scripture – I do not have to rewrite it to fit my doctrineR" Just as I thought, God does not change, means what according to you, that God does not react to sinning? If you have trouble reading a verse, look at its context DUHMal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.GOD is dealing with sinners who sin. and judges them God separates the good from the bad Those that love Him from those that hate Him Those that fear Him from those who don't 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
God does not change in the way God acts, it is always like this. 7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.People claiming to love God stop doing things that demonstrate a love to God. so the people have changed. But God has not changed his laws and ordinances of love. Now you tell me in these verses how does God fit your view? The verses speak of GOD reacting to sinners, and does not change how he reacts, the reaction is fair, logical and consistent. D" YES – I am sure when we sin the Father is disappointed with us / in us This does not cause God to alter His Plan in any shape form or fashionR" You owe me an apology , you now agree with me, I didn't say sinning changes God's plans, he designed for sinning in the first place, should it ever happen, it was never supposed to happen but it did. D" YES – I am sure when we sin the Father is disappointed with us / in usR" So God reacts. Well done Dave, stop arguing against me all the time D" YES – It makes the Father happy / joyous when the Prodigal Son retunes of his own Free Will This does not cause God to alter His Plan in any shape form or fashionR" So God reacts. Well done Dave, stop arguing against me all the time You are quick to add things I never said or spoke about, " This does not cause God to alter His Plan in any shape form or fashion"
God planned for free will, and never wanted sinning in the first place to ever happen. Woudl you agree with this design of GOD? But it did happen. DO you agree with this idea? And so the plan for God reacting to this design was allowed to unfold, planned from the foundation of the world, billions of years before sinning ever took place. DO you agree? Question? Who sinned first, expressing his free will? Answer. Has to be the chuerb, and angel. But you ignore Scripture, deny Scripture even. It is one verse, the only verse answering this question, but Dave denies the Scripture. What would happen if I denied every verse that is written once? How many verses speak of faith? One How many verses speak of a feminine HS? One SO I can deny these verses because they do not fit into the majority of other verses? Is that your theology?
I support every verse in the torah is inspired and true. You do not support this idea, you happily quote "bastard texts" to me. I humbly admit I do not know all texts, and so my comments are limited. Nor do I have all the answers, must we? ------------------------------------------------- D" Yeshua, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God. YES – ABSOLUTELY = TrinityR" wooo.... you cannot quote the text and agree with it? " apart from God",, and you say " yes" ? So the Father expression called Jesus is " a distinct essence apart from the Father", you say "trinity" Well this is two Fathers than isn't it? D" Robert calls this modality – so he ca mock the Trinity Robert absolutely denies that the Word became Flesh
D"I am a Trinitarian (3=1 / 1=3) – just as this Messianic Jewish email indicatesR" Now I am confused.... RP" Your idea of three clones of the Father is wrong. Messanic Jews would disagree with you, three clones of the Father idea.D" More of Robert’s misrepresentationR" So you are saying the Father is like a Star fish with three arms, one expressing a masculine person, and another as a feminine person, three expressions of the Father. Not sure what modalism means, so I leave big words alone. D" As I re-read this - I know Robert is going to be all confused with Yeshua, who is God and yet a distinct essence apart from God.R" Yes I am confused, it suggest three clones of the Father is your trinity, one Being but three persons. And these persons are separate are they not? Or like your left hand and right hand? Like a star fish with three hands or persons? My view is a little different, the trinity is like a family, with Provider, Responder and Collector. Similes of human family, made in our image. So we have both 3 in 1, So we have both three persons , You have persons, but one being, Father I have three persons, but One elohiym family power. We are different, but I have Eph 3:15,16, you ignore this verse too. And it is written once, so in Dave's mind does not fit his view, so ignores it, Paul was writing something else you say. Shalom
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