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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2022 5:41:49 GMT -5
Greetings
Ethel Nelson is not much help.
I will get back to you one day....must be somebody out there who understands the Ancient Chinese.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 18, 2022 7:33:16 GMT -5
I will get back to you one day....must be somebody out there who understands the Ancient Chinese.
I bet you will find - the serpent was in the Garden
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2022 16:34:52 GMT -5
Funny aren't you today..
SHalom
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 4:47:02 GMT -5
I found this, that some view Jewish ideas not the same as mot Jews do
I quote"
DID THE JEWS BELIEVE SATAN WAS “REAL?”
Some today are theorizing that belief in a personal Satan has NEVER been in the Hebraic mindset. These theorizers suggest that the concept of “the Satan,” as a REAL ontological being, is a Greek or Babylonian notion and NOT a Jewish idea, and in fact, NEVER was a Hebraic belief.
Here is my response.
First, to which exact Hebrew mindset are these theorizers referring? Their proposal seems based on the fact that there is only one pure and unadulterated Hebrew mindset floating around out there like some sort of helmeted Holy Grail. In reality, there is no such helmeted Grail we can put on and start officially thinking Hebraically. So, when the term “Hebrew mindset” is used, we need to define WHICH Hebrew mindset.
The Hebrew mindset affected and heavily influenced by their slavery to Egypt?
The Hebrew mindset affected and heavily influenced by their Babylonian captivity?
The Hebrew mindset displayed by the original 12 tribes, the 10 lost tribes, the two remaining tribes, or each separate tribe in each different epoch?
The Hebrew mindset affected and heavily influenced by their divided kingdom, by their wars and comminglings with the Philistines, Canannites, Samaritans, and all the other surrounding tribes and peoples at different times and places over four thousand years?
Here is my point. In identifying any current cultural mindset, how far back should we go to identify a legitimate religious mindset? 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, 200 years? Under any analysis, surely, going from 400 years back to the present would provide ample data as to what legitimately comprised a major cultural or religious mindset during any major era.
Here is why this matters.
The argument referenced above claims that the Jews of Jesus’ day were ONLY highly developed in their “diabology,” (their beliefs in the devil) because of their captivity in Babylon during the 400-year Intertestamental period preceding the coming of Christ.
This argument proposes that Jesus, by repeatedly recognizing, referencing and rebuking Satan and devils as He did, was only really “rolling with the punches” of a primitive mindset which was never really Hebrew to begin with. This mindset, rather, came about only as the result of the Israelite’s time spent in Babylonian captivity combined with later Greek influence. Thus, New Testament diabology is alleged to come from Babylonian and Greek religious influence rather than from genuine evolutionary Hebrew belief.
The bottom line of this argument is that there was no “authentic” Hebrew mindset regarding diabology from the 400 years preceding Jesus’ coming up until His resurrection and ascension.
Obviously, this theory has profound problems.
Rob " I agree, so the Jews must have a Satan view, all along, and not some Satanas either as you claim.
Rather than seeing New Testament diabology as a quantum leap FORWARD in divine revelation and realization, proponents of this theory just “blow off” New Testament demonology altogether, writing-it-off instead as a “flat world” superstition that was not legitimately Hebrew and thus should be ignored. The Jews over this 400 year period can’t really be considered Hebraically-minded, so this theory says, and therefore their cosmology can’t be said to be legitimately Jewish.
Of course, proponents of this theory quizzically claim that WE can only understand the New Testament if we learn to read it with a Hebrew mindset. But, the obvious question arises… IF, IF, IF the writers of the New Testament did NOT have an authentically Hebrew mindset (at least by the reckoning of these theorizers), then why, oh why, would we need a Hebrew mindset to then understand it.
And, with what do these theorizers suggest we replace New Testament diabology? Well, they suggest we go 2,400 years back in history to find and pick up what the Jews REALLY think about Satan. The only legitimate view of Satan, this theory says, is the ancient pre-400 A.D. view where Satan may or may not have been considered by Hebrew thought as an ontological being. And since there is scant extra-biblical literature from this ancient time, we are left pretty much with just what the Old Testament says.
But, even here, we see that Job, considered by many scholars to be the oldest book in the Old Testament, portrays Satan as an ontological being who accesses and assails the heavenly court with hostile accusations and violent proposals to destroy certain men. While the relationship between Satan and God in this Old Testament narrative is not as combative as subsequently portrayed in the New Testament, it nonetheless can be seen as an earlier and less differentiated version of a belief in an ontological Satan who is in cosmic rebellion to God.
As for those who claim we can’t take Job literally, but need to see it rather as literature, that misses the point. First, there is no proof on its face that presents or demands that it is to be read as a fictional work. Second, even assuming, arguendo, that Job is fictional, or an amalgam of fact and poetry, then the story still indicates that Jewish thought believed in an ontological Satan who brought destructions and accusations against mankind.
Scholar Jeffrey Burton Russell, who has written multiple volumes on the historical development of our understanding of Satan, notes that the reason early Jewish thought saw Satan as God’s servant is as follows: “Since the God of Israel was the only God, the supreme power in the cosmos, and since, unlike the abstract God of the Greeks, He had personality and will, no deed could be done unless He willed it. Consequently, when anyone transgressed morality, God was responsible for the transgression as well as for its punishment.” THE PRINCE OF DARKNESS: RADICAL EVIL AND THE POWER OF GOD IN HISTORY, Cornell University Press, 29-30.
Russell goes on to trace that later in Jewish history, closer to Jesus’ day, more and more Jews began to see Satan as an evil entity acting independently of God’s approval. This is easily proven by considering the incident in which King David sinned by numbering Israel. This incident is first recorded in 2 Samuel 24:1, and then centuries later in 1 Chronicles 21:1. In the earlier entry, David’s sin is caused by “the anger of God,” while in the later passage “Satan” is the cause of David’s sin. Same sin, same event, entirely different cause. The Jews were beginning to see that they could not attribute BOTH sin and punishment to God, good and evil to God, love and hate to God. They began to develop the idea that Satan was an enemy to God’s purposes rather than an obedient servant.
Rob" This is interesting the account in 1 Samuel and Chronicles happened hundred years later?
In fact, the ontological “death angel” of Exodus, which nobody would deny as a Hebraic belief, has been interpreted by Jewish scholars as one of the earliest references to Satan. As THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JEWISH CONCEPTS by Philip Birnbaum says, “Satan…is…identified with the angel of death. He leads astray, then he brings accusations against man, whom he slays eventually. His chief functions are those of temptation, accusation, and punishment. Under the control of God, he acts solely with the divine permission to carry out his plots.” (Sanhedrin Press, page 594). Rabbi Benjamin Blech similarly writes, “Judaism sees Satan as a servant of God whose function is to set up choices between good and evil so that we can exercise our free will…. [His] apparent harshness is merely camouflage for divine concern and love.” IF GOD IS SO GOOD, WHY IS THE WORLD SO BAD? Simcha Press, pages 7-9.
So, the claim against ANY Hebraic belief in an ontological Satan pre-400 A.D. is unfounded. “As an ADVERSARY: in the Bible, the term ‘Satan’ is used attributively (1 Samuel 29.4), or when personified it refers to a divine being who answers to God (Job 1.6-12; 1 Chronicles 21.1), rather than to an independent entity whom is God’s adversary. The concept only later developed into “the devil.” THE JEWISH STUDY BIBLE, TANAKH TRANSLATION, Jewish Publication Society, page 329, note 22, 2004.
Some Messianic Jewish commentators do disagree with their orthodox brethren above, however, as to WHEN Satan began to be seen as a cosmic rebel rather than an obedient servant angel, even though there is uniform agreement under either view that Satan was an ontological being. “Both the Tanakh and the New Testament take for granted the existence of a supernatural realm of good, obedient angels who serve God and evil, rebellious (demons) who serve the Adversary.” JEWISH NEW TESTAMENT COMMENTARY, David H. Stern, JNTP, 1996.
The non-Job verses in the OT which mention Satan are scant, brief and largely undeveloped. We do know that Judaism interprets the Old Testament to allow for Satan’s ontological reality.
The scapegoat in the Bible is actually called the Azazel goat, a well known alternate name of Satan. Leviticus 16:8 “And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. [1 Footnote [1] 16:8 The meaning of Azazel is uncertain; possibly the name of a place or a demon, traditionally a scapegoat; also verses 10, 26 ESV.]”
The great church father Origen equated Azazel with Satan. One translation of this word is rendered Za-za-e’il (the strong one against God), according to the Syriac Peshitta Version, as in Qumran fragment 4Q180.
The medieval mystic Nachmanides (1194–1270) identified the Hebrew text as referring to a demon and identified this “Azazel” with Samael, one of the well-known appellations of Satan in Jewish tradition. Interestingly, Azazel is one of the several names Muslims use for Satan. Many other Christian, Hebrew and other early sources clearly link Azazel as either a high-ranking captain of Lucifer or, in the alternative, as Satan himself.
The link between Satan and goats doesn’t stop there. There are several passages which seem to link “goats” to demonic activity involving the powers and principalities “of the nations” (Isaiah 13:21; 14:9; Zechariah 10:3). “Sa’yrim,” the Hebrew word for “goat,” is used in all these verses. Some Bibles translate the word “sa’yrim” in the English as “satyr,” “goats,” “goat-like demons,” or “goat-shaped demons.” The word sa’yrim is translated “demons” in 2 Chronicles 11:15.
Historically, the word sa’yrim has always been interpreted as referring to demons or goat demons. The targum of Onkelos paraphrases this as sidim, which means demons or devils. Israel Drazin’s translation of the Onkelos Leviticus targum states: “MT’s ‘goats’ is interpreted as a euphemism for ‘demons’ by most translators and commentators. They are called goats here and in Isa. 13:21 and 34:14 because they dance and skip about like goats (Rashi). The root syrm, ‘goats,’ may be related s’r, ‘hair’ or ‘horror,’ and they may be called ‘goats’ because they appear in the form of goats (Radak, Nachmanides). The word is actually translated ‘demons’ in Deut 32:17 where the word is in MT.” [Drazin p 157-158].
Even modern commentators have understood these verses as referring to demons. Otto Kaiser wrote the following in his commentary to the Westminster Commentary series: “So the place will become the refuge of the desert animals, which occupy a curious position between the world of animals and that of demons, and whose presence helps to increase the uncanny nature of the ruins. Owls and ostriches will dwell there. Among them will leap the ‘hairy ones’, the satyrs or goat demons, whose cult, probably deriving from Canaanite popular belief, seems to have had a location in Jerusalem itself before the time of Josiah.” [Kaiser, p. 20 21].
The Soncino Bible commentary and the Jewish Publication Society translation that it uses both translate this word as “satyr,” and the commentator’s footnote reads: “Goat-shaped demons. The Hebrew also means goats.” [Slotki, p. 66]. Other translations pickup on the demonic nature of these creatures. The Italian Diodati has “i demoni.” The Spanish Reina Valera has pelugos meaning “hairy creatures.” Luther’s Bible has Feldgeister, which means “field-spirits” or “satyrs.” The Living Bible has “demons.” The Amplified Bible has “wild goats [like demons] will dance there.” The CEV adds a footnote “or demons.”
Substituting “goat-like leaders” or “goat-like demons” in these passages produces some interesting possibilities, particularly along “the principalities and powers” line which the New Testament takes in defining certain spiritual structures as fallen and demonically driven.
“Even the pit underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in. At you it has awakened those impotent in death, ALL THE GOAT-LIKE LEADERS OF THE EARTH. It has made all the kings of the nations get up from their thrones. All of them speak up and say to you,`Have you yourself also been made weak like us? Is it to us that you have been made comparable? Down to the pit your pride has been brought. Beneath you, maggots are spread out as a couch and worms are your covering.'” Isaiah 14:9.
“Against the shepherds, my anger has grown hot, and AGAINST THE GOAT-LIKE LEADERS I SHALL HOLD AN ACCOUNTING; for God has turned his attention to his drove.” Zechariah 10:3.
“And there the haunters of waterless regions will certainly lie down, and their houses must be filled with eagle owls. And there the ostriches must reside, and the GOAT-SHAPED DEMONS themselves will go skipping about there. And the jackals must howl in her dwelling towers, and the big SNAKE will be in the palaces of exquisite delight. And the season for her is near to come, and her days themselves will not be postponed. God has broken the rod of the wicked ones, the staff of the RULING ONES, the one striking peoples in fury with a stroke incessantly, the one subduing nations in sheer anger with a persecution without restraint.” Isaiah 13:21.
“The Israelites will then stop sacrificing to the demons (sa’yer) who [continue to] tempt them.” Leviticus 17:7. THE LIVING TORAH: A NEW TRANSLATION BASED ON TRADITIONAL SOURCES, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Mazneim 1981.
Many of these above verses are the basis for the image of the goat being so prevalent in Satanic rituals, from its image overlaying the pentagram to the severing of goats heads during Satanic rituals, the goat symbolizes demonic rule and power.
Brown, Driver, Briggs has as its third definition: “satyr, demon (with he-goat’s form, or feet, hairy demons inhabiting desolate ruins, so pl wa’yrim; name for idols…” Fuerst’s Dictionary has: “rough, hairy,…the shaggy, hairy one; hence a buck, specially a he-goat…” and most importantly: “A goat-shaped deity, which was idolatrously worshipped beside the bamot and egelim, a thing which was strictly forbidden the Israelites Lev. 17,7; 2 CHR. 11,15. It was believed that such hostile beings inhabited the deserts and woods (Is. 12:21; 34:14), and that they must be appeased by divine worship. Hence the LXX have daimonia, the Targ. and Pesh. Sheddin; and Jerome describes them “vel incubones vel satyros vel silvestres quosdam homines &c.” This superstition was probably derived from Egypt, where a goat (Josephus contra Ap. 2,7) or Pan who was depicted with a goat’s head and feet (Herod. 2,46. 145; Strabo 17. page 802), was worshipped. The latter symbolized the procreative and male power (Steph. Byz. s.v. Panos polis; Horap. 1, 48).”
Peter France in his An Encyclopedia of Bible Animals theorizes about the purport of the word satyr in these verses:
“The same word appears in 2 Chronicles 11:15 where it is translated as devils, ‘And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.’ Tristram convincingly argues that these devils are the half goat half man gods that were worshiped in Egypt. These devils, or se’irim, Bocharrt and many other commentators consider to be the goat-gods of Egypt, an idol half goat, half man, with the worship of which the Israelites had been familiar in Egypt, and which Jerobaom re-introduced from thence; and consequently, the se’irim of Isaiah’s prophecy would mean really what we understand by Satyrs i.e., demons of the woods and desolate places with the human head and arm, and the body and legs of a goat. The popular superstitions of Arabia and Syria are full of such fabled monsters, which people all the ruins.” [France, p. 132] It might be added here as an aside that Masons to this day still worship Baphomet, a demonic creature that is part goat part man in his iconological images. In this case, it is the head of a goat on the body of a man. The goat’s head itself shows up in Satanic imagery to this day and also is depicted in Masonic imagery, including the upside-down five-pointed star of Mendes.”
So, in the New Testament, devils clearly had the power to inhabit animals (such as pigs), while in the Old Testament they appeared to have some form of habitation with or as goat-like creatures. Jesus mentioned devils went to dry places. The Old Testament seems to concur.
My point in all this is that an ontological Satan is warranted by a fair reading of both Old and New Testaments. Concerning Jewish writings the Intertestamental period, consider this: Satan’s role, as the leader of fallen angels, is elaborated upon in Jubilees 4:22; 1 Enoch 6-8; Life of Adam and Eve 12-17.
Rob" Wow these books speak of the fallen angel leader?
Demons are subject to Mastema aka Satan until the messianic age (Jubilees 10.8; 23:29; cf Assumption of Moses 10.1). Satanael is called the prince of the rebellious angels (2 Enoch 18:3; 29:4-5). Satan, or Beliar, tempts human beings through seven spirits, which are the personified lists of men (Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs passim). According to the rabbinical literature, Sammael, the chief of all Satans, said to have been created on the sixth day and to be a fallen angel (b. Pesachim 54a). With his threefold office as accuser, seducer, and destroyer, Satan is identified as the yetzer hara, the evil impulse in man. Source: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF EARLY CHRISTIANITY, Editor Everett Ferguson, Satan entry (1990).
But what if the Jews were unduly influenced by their time in Babylonian captivity? What if the idea of a personal Satan is a Babylonian invention which infected Hebrew thought, rather than an evolutionary step forward in their cosmology?
First, the Jews have been impacted by every nation they have encountered, just like all the other ancient races were likewise affected by the Jews. That’s the way culture encounter works. Israel was impacted by dozens of other cultural encounters, so to act as if the Babylonian exile was the ONLY one to leave a significant fingerprint of change on Israel is extremely errant.
Second, even if true, does that mean that the evolution of Jewish thought over the 400 year period between testaments was wrong or misguided? Do we have so little confidence in the Lord’s ability to prepare the people for the coming Messiah? Is it so inconceivable that the Spirit would wisely posture the people conceptually so that they could better grasp the unseen realities of the kingdom of God about which His son would be teaching?
Third, the Old Testament DOES present an ontological Satan, not a highly differentiated and developed Satan, but definitely a real being with a real personality.
Fourth, the early church clearly believed in the ontology of Satan. Ignatius of Antioch warns of the “snares” and “torments” of the devil (Trall; Romans 5; 8. False teachings have a “bad odor” as “inventions of the devil” (Ephesians 17; cf Trall. 10). The devil invents falsehoods against Christian martyrs (M. Polyc.). We are not to fear the devil, but doubt, adulterous lust and coveting luxuries are the “daughter of the devil” (Hermas, Mand. 7; 9; 12.2, 6).
Justin Martyr speaks much of the serpent and Satan’s role in temptation (Dial. 100; 125). The Gospel of Nicodemus dramatizes Satan’s role in Jesus’ harrowing of Hell (2:21-24). To Iranaeus, Satan is a fallen angel who introduced murder thorough Cain’s corruption, but who thereafter was the strongman whom the stronger man, Jesus, bound so that all men could thereafter be perfected into the image of God. He said the Antichrist will come in the power of the devil. (Haer. 3.8.2; 3.18.6; 3.23.1; 5.22. 2-3; 5.22.3; 5.22.1; 5.24.1; 25.1; Dem.16-17).
Clement of Alexandria calls Satan our true adversary, a thief and robber, the serpent, and ruler of death, from whom Christ set us free (Str. 1.17; 4.14; Exh. 9;11). Origen believed that Jesus was delivered as a ransom to a deceived or tricked devil, whom Jesus overcame via resurrection (Comm. in Mt. 13.8-9; 16.8; Cels. 7.17; 8:54; Hom. in Lc. 6.6). The Christian life is a daily struggle against the missiles and nets of Satan. (Cant. 3.8, 13; Princ. 3.2.5; Or. 22.4).
Origen is a crucial source because he makes a clear statement as to what the majority of the early church believed about Satan and his devils. “Regarding the devil and his angels, and the opposing forces, the teaching of the church is that these beings do indeed exist. However, the church has not explained with sufficient clarity what they are, or how they exist. Most Christians, however, hold this opinion: that the devil was an angel and that, having become an apostate, he induced many of the angels as possible to fall away with him.” (c. 225, E), 4.240.
Tertullian believed Satan deceived Eve (Cult. fem. 1), is responsible for the making of idols (Idol.3), is the originator of impatience (Pat. 5) and the instrumental agent for persecution (Fuga 2-3), and blinds the hearts of unbelievers (Marc. 5.11). The violent “shows” of the gladiatorial games were instituted for the devil’s sake (Spec. 24).
So here then is the bottom line. Core Hebraic thought has always believed in a personal Satan. It evolved significantly in the Intertestamental period from a “friendly” ontology of Satan who serves God to a “hostile” ontology of Satan who resists God, but under either view, Satan WAS an actual personage. Thus, Hebrew thought has always believed in the actuality of Satan.
By Richard K. Murray
SO it seems the Jews did and do have a proper understanding of Satan, the opposer of God
SHalom
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Post by Dave on May 19, 2022 12:13:44 GMT -5
I quote" DID THE JEWS BELIEVE SATAN WAS “REAL?” DUH – Hebrew has always had an accuser
Some today are theorizing that belief in a personal Satan has NEVER been in the Hebraic mindset. Not me or the Gnostics – we know exactly who Paul’s archon are
First, to which exact Hebrew mindset are these theorizers referring? Their proposal seems based on the fact that there is only one pure and unadulterated Hebrew mindset floating around out there like some sort of helmeted Holy Grail. In reality, there is no such helmeted Grail we can put on and start officially thinking Hebraically. So, when the term “Hebrew mindset” is used, we need to define WHICH Hebrew mindset. Exactly – Jews usually offer 5 opinions
The Hebrew mindset affected and heavily influenced by their slavery to Egypt? YES – face to face – they lived it
The Hebrew mindset affected and heavily influenced by their Babylonian captivity? YES – face to face – they lived it
Here is my point. In identifying any current cultural mindset, how far back should we go to identify a legitimate religious mindset? 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, 200 years? Under any analysis, surely, going from 400 years back to the present would provide ample data as to what legitimately comprised a major cultural or religious mindset during any major era.
MY POINT = it was the Jewish mnd set at the time of Jesus Christ – His disciples – His followers – and His audience – that is all that matters – the cultural context of Jesus Christ
This argument proposes that Jesus, by repeatedly recognizing, referencing and rebuking Satan and devils as He did, was only really “rolling with the punches” of a primitive mindset which was never really Hebrew to begin with. WOW – do you trust a Jewish presentation of what Jesus thought?
Rob " I agree, so the Jews must have a Satan view, all along, and not some Satanas either as you claim. DUH – Hebrew has always had an accuser
Rather than seeing New Testament diabology as a quantum leap FORWARD in divine revelation and realization, proponents of this theory just “blow off” New Testament demonology altogether, writing-it-off instead as a “flat world” superstition that was not legitimately Hebrew and thus should be ignored.
So – we should ignore Revelations Chapter 12 in it entirety – it is not scripture according to this Jew Ans why would he – he is a Jew
Of course, proponents of this theory quizzically claim that WE can only understand the New Testament if we learn to read it with a Hebrew mindset. But, the obvious question arises… IF, IF, IF the writers of the New Testament did NOT have an authentically Hebrew mindset (at least by the reckoning of these theorizers), then why, oh why, would we need a Hebrew mindset to then understand it.
DUH – DUH – and double DUH Jesus Christ was a Jew – His disciples were Jews – His followers were Jews – His audience was Jewish
But, even here, we see that Job, considered by many scholars to be the oldest book in the Old Testament, portrays Satan as an ontological being who accesses and assails the heavenly court with hostile accusations and violent proposals to destroy certain men. While the relationship between Satan and God in this Old Testament narrative is not as combative as subsequently portrayed in the New Testament, it nonetheless can be seen as an earlier and less differentiated version of a belief in an ontological Satan who is in cosmic rebellion to God.
ABSOLUTLY CORRECT – Old Testament narrative is not as combative Catholic satan = who is in cosmic rebellion to God ABSOLUTLY CORRECT – Catholic satan IS NOT Hebrew satan
Russell goes on to trace that later in Jewish history, closer to Jesus’ day, more and more Jews began to see Satan as an evil entity acting independently of God’s approval. YES – ABSOLUTLY AGREE and people like your buddy Iraneus made sure everyone became Catholic -------------
Rob" This is interesting the account in 1 Samuel and Chronicles happened hundred years later? “Satan…is…identified with the angel of death. He leads astray, then he brings accusations against man, whom he slays eventually. His chief functions are those of temptation, accusation, and punishment. ENTROPY + their mission is to keep ma sidetracked with world - so we do not have the time to devote to the Holy Spirit
Under the control of God, he acts solely with the divine permission to carry out his plots.” (Sanhedrin Press, page 594). Rabbi Benjamin Blech similarly writes, “Judaism sees Satan as a servant of God whose function is to set up choices between good and evil so that we can exercise our free will…. Absolutely Agree
So, the claim against ANY Hebraic belief in an ontological Satan pre-400 A.D. is unfounded. “As an ADVERSARY: in the Bible, the term ‘Satan’ is used attributively (1 Samuel 29.4), or when personified it refers to a divine being who answers to God (Job 1.6-12; 1 Chronicles 21.1), rather than to an independent entity whom is God’s adversary. Absolutely Agree
The medieval mystic Nachmanides (1194–1270) identified the Hebrew text as referring to a demon and identified this “Azazel” with Samael, one of the well-known appellations of Satan in Jewish tradition. Interestingly, Azazel is one of the several names Muslims use for Satan. Many other Christian, Hebrew and other early sources clearly link Azazel as either a high-ranking captain of Lucifer or, in the alternative, as Satan himself. YES – and as you taught us earlier – Azazal was the leader of the Gen 6 bane elohiym
The link between Satan and goats doesn’t stop there. There are several passages which seem to link “goats” to demonic activity involving the powers and principalities “of the nations” (Isaiah 13:21; 14:9; Zechariah 10:3). “Sa’yrim,” the Hebrew word for “goat,” is used in all these verses. Some Bibles translate the word “sa’yrim” in the English as “satyr,” “goats,” “goat-like demons,” or “goat-shaped demons.” The word sa’yrim is translated “demons” in 2 Chronicles 11:15.
Oops! Archon everywhere
“The Israelites will then stop sacrificing to the demons (sa’yer) who [continue to] tempt them.” Leviticus 17:7. THE LIVING TORAH: A NEW TRANSLATION BASED ON TRADITIONAL SOURCES, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Mazneim 1981.
Many of these above verses are the basis for the image of the goat being so prevalent in Satanic rituals, from its image overlaying the pentagram to the severing of goats heads during Satanic rituals, the goat symbolizes demonic rule and power.
Brown, Driver, Briggs has as its third definition: “satyr, demon (with he-goat’s form, or feet, hairy demons inhabiting desolate ruins, so pl wa’yrim; name for idols…” Fuerst’s Dictionary has: “rough, hairy,…the shaggy, hairy one; hence a buck, specially a he-goat…” and most importantly: “A goat-shaped deity, which was idolatrously worshipped beside the bamot and egelim, a thing which was strictly forbidden the Israelites Lev. 17,7; 2 CHR. 11,15. It was believed that such hostile beings inhabited the deserts and woods (Is. 12:21; 34:14), and that they must be appeased by divine worship. Hence the LXX have daimonia, the Targ. and Pesh. Sheddin; and Jerome describes them “vel incubones vel satyros vel silvestres quosdam homines &c.” This superstition was probably derived from Egypt, where a goat (Josephus contra Ap. 2,7) or Pan who was depicted with a goat’s head and feet (Herod. 2,46. 145; Strabo 17. page 802), was worshipped. The latter symbolized the procreative and male power (Steph. Byz. s.v. Panos polis; Horap. 1, 48).”
Archon – ‘other gods’
My point in all this is that an ontological Satan is warranted by a fair reading of both Old and New Testaments. Concerning Jewish writings the Intertestamental period, consider this: Satan’s role, as the leader of fallen angels, is elaborated upon in Jubilees 4:22; 1 Enoch 6-8; Life of Adam and Eve 12-17.
Rob" Wow these books speak of the fallen angel leader? YES – and they are talking about Gen 6 - Jude 1:6 - 2 peter 2:4 Enoch wrote an entire Book about him and his Watchers
Demons are subject to Mastema aka Satan until the messianic age (Jubilees 10.8; 23:29; cf Assumption of Moses 10.1). YES – quoted to you many times
Satanael is called the prince of the rebellious angels (2 Enoch 18:3; 29:4-5). YES – Enoch and Gnostic Gospels - NHL
Fourth, the early church clearly believed in the ontology of Satan. Ignatius of Antioch = Catholic Justin Martyr = Catholic
The Gospel of Nicodemus – where did you get this – is this a Roman approved text – why isn’t it canon?
Iranaeus = Doctor of the Catholic Church
Clement of Alexandria = who taught at the Catechetical School of Alexandria.
Origen is a crucial source because he makes a clear statement as to what the majority of the early church believed about Satan and his devils. “Regarding the devil and his angels, and the opposing forces, the teaching of the church is that these beings do indeed exist. However, the church has not explained with sufficient clarity what they are, or how they exist. Most Christians, however, hold this opinion: that the devil was an angel and that, having become an apostate, he induced many of the angels as possible to fall away with him.” (c. 225, E), 4.240.
Origen is very much a Gnostic – he taught that we are all to become a Christ on earth He is hated by the Catholic Church – his ideas find their way into Coptic Christianity
Most Christians, however, hold this opinion: that the devil was an angel and that, having become an apostate, he induced many of the angels as possible to fall away with him.” Question – in 200AD who were MOST CHRISTIANS? – Iraneus, Justyn Marter
Tertullian – is not recognized by the Catholic Church Buy his greatest contribution = Trinitarianism He also wrote against Heresies
SO it seems the Jews did and do have a proper understanding of Satan, the opposer of God NO ROBERT no one can oppose God
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. Job 23:13 He is unchangeable, and who can change Him? Whatever His soul desires, He does. Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
SO it seems the Jews did and do have a proper understanding of Satan, the opposer of God What you mean to say = no one believed in your Catholic satan until the Catholics invented him
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 17:15:17 GMT -5
D"Origen is very much a Gnostic
R" Hmm? Show me some quotes of this Origen Gnostic supporter?
D"What you mean to say = no one believed in your Catholic satan until the Catholics invented him
R" I also support the idea that the cela rock is founded upon the tswur rock, and these two rocks are salvation rock for every stone that is built into the living stones of the temple.
Are there any religions that proclaim this idea in the Hebrew? None. I am alone in this. Though Mrs White does allude to some ideas along these lines. Nobody else talks about this, not even Jews. Just because some religions use the Hebrew a little here and there does not mean you also cannot use the Hebrew....
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 20, 2022 11:17:29 GMT -5
D"Origen is very much a Gnostic R" Hmm? Show me some quotes of this Origen Gnostic supporter?(Wiki) Origen founded the Christian School of Caesarea, where he taught logic, cosmology, natural history, and theology, and became regarded by the churches of Palestine and Arabia as the ultimate authority on all matters of theology. He was tortured for his faith during the Decian persecution in 250 and died three to four years later from his injuries. He taught science - logic - history - along side of theology = 100% Gnostic(wiki) The Decian persecution of Christians occurred in 250 AD under the Roman Emperor Decius. He had issued an edict ordering everyone in the Empire to perform a sacrifice to the Roman gods and the well-being of the emperor. The sacrifices had to be performed in the presence of a Roman magistrate, and be confirmed by a signed and witnessed certificate from the magistrate. Although the text of the edict has been lost, many examples of the certificates have survived. Decius' edict was intended to act as an Empire-wide loyalty oath to the new emperor (who had come to power in 249 AD), sanctified through the Roman religion Question to Robert – How did the fathers of the Catholic Church survive this?Iraneus and others – made the compromise to maintain control over the church and the people (google) What did Origen contribute to Christianity?
Origen produced the Hexapla, the first critical edition of the Hebrew Bible, which contained the original Hebrew text as well as four different Greek translations of it, and one Greek transliteration of the Hebrew, all written in columns, side by side. WOW - Rome hated this - the public is not allowed to read scripture - only priest
Dissemenation of knowledge / information = 100% Gnostic
(google) What did Origen say about Jesus?Origen writes that Jesus was "the firstborn of all creation [who] assumed a body and a human soul." He firmly believed that Jesus had a human soul and abhorred docetism (the teaching which held that Jesus had come to Earth in spirit form rather than a physical human body). Christ assumes a human body - incarnate = 100% Jewish / 100% Gnsostic / 100% Mainstream Christianity(google) What did Origen say about the Trinity?He is the first theologian to state unequivocally that the “three hypostases” which constitute the Trinity are eternal not only in nature, but in their hypostatic character; there was never a time when wisdom was the latent thought of the Father and had not yet come forth as speech. (google) What was Origen condemned for?In the year 400, Theophilus summoned a council in Alexandria, which condemned Origen and all his followers as heretics for having taught that God was incorporeal, which they decreed contradicted the only true and orthodox position, which was that God had a literal, physical body resembling that of a human. (google) Did Origen believe in universal salvation?Origen took Peter at his word: all things, all the fallen minds, including Satan, must be restored—in other words, he insisted on universal salvation, but worked out across many lifetimes and successive worlds—in other words, reincarnation. In the end, the apokatastasis, the last to be saved will be Satan. plato.stanford.edu/entries/origen/At First Principles 4.4.1 Origen scoffs that only a fool would suppose that God had really planted a garden in Eden, as the second chapter of Genesis records. This has been taken to mean that he regards Eden not as a physical locality but as the state in which all souls enjoy the presence of God before they descend to bodies (Martens, 2013).Man created on day 1 - in heaven as spirit - that come to eath for a physical souljourn100% Jewish - 100% Gnostic To distinguish only two senses of scripture is to forget that Christ, the true Word, became incarnate in a threefold human nature.The Word became INCARNATE = 100 jewish + 100% Gnsotic + 100 Mainstream ChristianityOrigin is rejected by Roman Christendom – therefore he is gnostic according to RomeD"What you mean to say = no one believed in your Catholic satan until the Catholics invented himR" I also support the idea that the cela rock is founded upon the tswur rock, AVOID - evade – divert – why do you deny the demonology of the whole world and replace it with catholic doctrin
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2022 1:54:43 GMT -5
D"Origen produced the Hexapla, the first critical edition of the Hebrew Bible, which contained the original Hebrew text as well as four different Greek translations of it, and one Greek transliteration of the Hebrew, all written in columns, side by side.
WOW - Rome hated this - the public is not allowed to read scripture - only priest
Dissemenation of knowledge / information = 100% Gnostic R" And this is a Gnostic trait ?
I would call it empowering the common people with power from the word. Excellent
D"In the year 400, Theophilus summoned a council in Alexandria, which condemned Origen and all his followers as heretics for having taught that God was incorporeal, which they decreed contradicted the only true and orthodox position, which was that God had a literal, physical body resembling that of a human. R" Is this it? The only conflict, can't people hold to opinions?
Where does Scripture say the Father and the HS has a shape like humans? It doesn't.
Gen 1:26 comes close, let us make mankind in our image? But this could refer to the functions of maleness and femaleness love. Not biological shape.
D"Did Origen believe in universal salvation?
R" More evidence of his statements please?
D"At First Principles 4.4.1 Origen scoffs that only a fool would suppose that God had really planted a garden in Eden, as the second chapter of Genesis records. This has been taken to mean that he regards Eden not as a physical locality but as the state in which all souls enjoy the presence of God before they descend to bodies (Martens, 2013).
Man created on day 1 - in heaven as spirit - that come to eath for a physical souljourn 100% Jewish - 100% Gnostic R" SO this is Gnostic, and it is disharmony with Scripture.
Eden was a real place. Humans are not spirits, not do we have in us some spirit form.
D"D"What you mean to say = no one believed in your Catholic satan until the Catholics invented him R" Well Uncle Noah taught a devil sneaking causing the heart to be full of devil. SO you are wrong with your ideas, written in Chinese words, before Abram even existed.
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Post by Dave on May 21, 2022 9:42:55 GMT -5
Dissemenation of knowledge / information = 100% Gnostic R" And this is a Gnostic trait ? YES – it is 100% the call of the NHL authors – recognize what is in your sight because it all speaks to the One true Creator I would call it empowering the common people with power from the word. Excellent
NOT the attitude or the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church – until Luther Man was not allowed to read scripture – common man would not understand – only a Catholic Priest can properly discern scripture
D"In the year 400, Theophilus summoned a council in Alexandria, which condemned Origen and all his followers as heretics for having taught that God was incorporeal, which they decreed contradicted the only true and orthodox position, which was that God had a literal, physical body resembling that of a human. R" Is this it? The only conflict, can't people hold to opinions? This was not the only issue can't people hold to opinions? – the only opinion allowed was ROME’S And the who point of the Roman Index – to control the information
D"Did Origen believe in universal salvation? YES – even satan would be saved in the end – because His God was a God of Love
D"At First Principles 4.4.1 Origen scoffs that only a fool would suppose that God had really planted a garden in Eden, as the second chapter of Genesis records. This has been taken to mean that he regards Eden not as a physical locality but as the state in which all souls enjoy the presence of God before they descend to bodies (Martens, 2013).
Man created on day 1 - in heaven as spirit - that come to eath for a physical souljourn 100% Jewish - 100% Gnostic R" SO this is Gnostic, and it is disharmony with Scripture. NO – IT IS 100% JEWISH – and in complete harmony with Jewish theology
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2022 5:23:46 GMT -5
D"YES – even satan would be saved in the end – because His God was a God of Love R" God might be a God of love, but that does not mean the free will is easily won over by love. Thus not everybody is saved by love. In fact many wicked people hate love with a vengeance.
There is no way Satan would be saved in the end, along with over 99% of the humans and 30% of the angels, many are doomed to a state of non-existence.
Put a wicked person in heaven, and he would hate being there, nothing to do, everybody is a goody two shoes, too much gold lying around, no point stealing it. All the people talk of God, nobody talks about self. It's boring to him. He would rather cease to exist.
If everybody is saved, what's this
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
I consider this the third coming of Jesus to earth, after the 1000 years of the wedding feast, He returns to earth, and allows the new city to come down from heaven, bringing the original EDEN with it in the same perfect soil it once had.
It comes down in Jerusalem to the Dead Sea region.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Jeff Benner terms this striking, and is better. God finally strikes all the wicked ones, and their flesh falls from their bodies, the punishing is finite, according to their works and the punishment is infinite. They cease to exist.
More details in Revelation
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Satan devil is cast into the Lake of fire, which is really God's love of fire, wrapping His arms of love around them one last time, but the wicked are not fire proof and are burned up. The righteous are fireproof and withstand the burning love of God. The this burning love is infinite and blazing forever and ever.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 22, 2022 7:39:33 GMT -5
There is no way Satan would be saved in the end, along with over 99% of the humans and 30% of the angels, many are doomed to a state of non-existence.
WOW – some God of LOVE - 99% of all humans are created just to die
You know I do not teach Origen – but still
I – want nothing to do with your god – who struggles helplessly against his own angels and is able to only save a few
What is omnipotent - or loving - or mercifull about that? It is not a Jewish teaching or a Christian teaching Sounds satanic to me - God can't control his own angels or save his own chosen people
WHO TAUGHT YOU THIS? Is this the end teaching of Ellen White? She contradicts scripture in so many ways it is a JOKE!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2022 16:45:09 GMT -5
OK how many of the millions of Israel saved in the Exodus, were saved for heaven, the promised land?
Over 3 million, men, women and children
Only Joshua and Caleb allowed in, 2 saved for promised land.
Moses did NOT make it, a sinner.
Some like Moses were forgiven and raised to enter the promised land later. Yes so maybe some were saved through repentence. But many were lost,
I ask you how does love conquer a room full of wicked students in class? I used to be a teacher. In the older days the stick conquered the wickedness.
What do teachers use today? Nothing, bluff and use high pitched words....
How strong is love overpowering wickedness? What would you do if you had a wayward daughter?
My Uncle had one, Christian misery it was, until she left. My friend had one, Christian misery it was, until she left. Peer group pressure from teenage kids.
Why is divorce mentioned in Scripture than?
SHalom
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Post by Dave on May 22, 2022 22:06:50 GMT -5
Some like Moses were forgiven and raised to enter the promised land later. Yes so maybe some were saved through repentence. But many were lost,jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12005-penitenceREPENTANCE (Hebr. "teshubah"): By: Kaufmann Kohler, Max Schlesinger The noun occurs only in post-Biblical literature, but it is derived from the vocabulary of the Bible. Maimonides' dictum, "All the prophets preach repentance" ("Yad," Teshubah, vii. 5), echoes the opinion of Talmudic authority (Ber. 34b). In Biblical as well as post-Biblical literature repentance is postulated as the indispensable condition on which the salvation and redemption of the people of Israel, as well as of every individual man, depend (Gen. iv. 7; Lev. iv., v.; Deut. iv. 30, xxx. 2; I Kings viii. 33, 48; Hosea xiv. 2; Jer. iii. 12, xxxi. 18, xxxvi. 3; Ezek. xviii. 30-32; Isa. liv. 22, lv. 6-10; Joel ii. 12; Jonah ii. 10). The noun occurs only in post-Biblical literature – meaning it only appears in the agl/NT and post ahl/OT literatureMaimonides' dictum, "All the prophets preach repentance" – The Christian concept of REPENTANCE comes from the Jewish KabbalahScope and Function. The full meaning of repentance, according to Jewish doctrine, is clearly indicated in the term "teshubah" (lit. "return"; from the verb ). This implies: (1) All transgression and sin are the natural and inevitable consequence of man's straying from God and His laws (comp. Deut. xi. 26-28; Isa. i. 4; Jer. ii. 13, xvi. 11; Ezek. xviii. 30). (2) It is man's destiny, and therefore his duty, to be with God as God is with him. (3) It is within the power of every man to redeem himself from sin by resolutely breaking away from it and turning to God, whose loving-kindness is ever extended to the returning sinner. "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Isa. lv. 7; comp. Jer. iii. 12; Ezek. xviii. 32; Joel ii. 13). (4) Because "there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Eccl. vii. 20; I Kings viii. 46), every mortal stands in need of this insistence on his "return" to God. The Jewish concept of repentance is different – in the fact that they are all saved by birth rightMost Jews believe in YHWY – it is all that is required After a period of Proportional Punishment – only the very worse remain in torment 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad. Some like Moses were forgiven and raised to enter the promised land later. Yes so maybe some were saved through repentance. But many were lost,Why do you teach that salvation is unattainable? Why do you teach that salvation is only available to your own little special group?Do you believe in the promise of salvation – or is that for other people too – like gifts of the spirit – or the call to be a disciple? --------------- How strong is love overpowering wickedness? What would you do if you had a wayward daughter?I have two daughters and I think on this very subject. My witness to my daughter has been very pragmatic – I have never hidden anything from them God sees it all – if I lie God knows I am a liar God sees it all – if I cheat God knows If God is as real as the door – how can you misbehave in front of the door If you believe that God sees all – God is the best baby sitter My Uncle had one, Christian misery it was, until she left.I won’t speak to anyone’s family problems BUT – isn’t this the problem with the church – You are a sinner – You are wrong - you are going to hell – You don’t measure up – You need to try harder -Christian guilt trip! The Preacher’s daughter is always the wildest girl – once released from oppression If I criticized my girls for almost anything – I would only be a hypocrite My Uncle had one, Christian misery it was, until she left. NOT CRITICISING ANYONE – but why would anyone leave the place they feel loved and cherished? Peer group pressure from teenage kids.1- Parental choices – we fell into home school by circumstance We enrolled my oldest daughter into a private Christian school in our town December of her 1st grade - I quit my job – and my next job was only 13 weeks 1500 miles away from home What to do? – Lucky for us – that private school – just used an ABBECKA home school program So we got to take all her years’ work with her That next year we enrolled both girls into Christian Academy of America – a home school program from Dallas, Texas. We sampled several – too many had too much God – God put the molecules together – God made it rain This program is very heavy math and science But also has always had a Bible class on the side – as 10th and 11th graders in high school my girls know their Bible better than most. Peer group pressure from teenage kids. 2- as a home schooler we are the peer group But we also have done or are doing – Community Church Choir – Adult Choir with the Sande de Christo Community Theater – and took part in a Community theater play So the other peer group is very adult and retired – nice folk from professional backgrounds I hung out with guys who smoked cigarettes and drank beer My girls had to deal with Chardonnay with cheese and crackers The only other peer group they have been exposed to in a large way = The Figure Skating Club We live 100 miles south of Colorado Springs – the home of the US Olympic Figure Skating training center Once we joined the club – everyone wanted to be an athlete Peer pressure was for diets and exercise – and hours on the ice My girls loved it – until they became Freestyle level 2 – to move on they need to master a double jump We watched people continually fling themselves onto the ice – over and over – need more strength and loose weight My girls had enough – what was fun was becoming work – and spoiled the joy But – we satisfied all our (Physical Ed) requirement for homeschooling Lastly – we church at times - my girls asked to attend services this morning In 2019 – 50-60 people This morning = 16 – and my girls were praised for their singing Soon I will be pushing my daughters out – to a college – far from home Are they too sheltered? In a bubble? – yes – sure – maybeHowever – with others in my family – I have seen – if you are not a believer at the age of 12 Or if you don’t discuss belief as a family before adolescence The battel to unlearn WORLD is so difficult -------------------------- Why is divorce mentioned in Scripture than?Which one – the worldly level or spiritual level?Worldly – man is an animal – LAW is practical – reasonable God divorces Israel – the Northern Kingdom – Samaria (Phoenicia) The FIRST WAVE of losing the 10 tribes = the Phoenicians across the Meddatranian When Cyrus let Israel go – many went north – over the Caucus Mountains into INDO-EURASIA When Cyrus let Israel go – some went East – small pockets in Iran – China – When Cyrus let Israel go – small pockets in Chili and Easter Island - and New Zealand And they are all White – as in CaucasianThis represents White Roman Christendom – the lost 10 tribesRemarried – reunited with Judah for the last battel As in 1948 Israel + America + UN Recognition
Preach the Gospel to the Jews first – then the Gentile!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 4:48:19 GMT -5
Your daughters sing well, and skate well, but found the hard work of getting to the next level taking away the joy of skating. Yeah I can relate to that, Jonathon my second boy was training 6 hours a day for Bejing OLympics and got a PB in the events leading to the 400m race but missed the final group selection. I used to watch him do leg lifts of 400kg on the weights machine. It was hard work and my other son gave up. Now Johnny doesn't train anymore.
I get the impression Salvation is difficult to achieve in a fallen world encumbered with temptations of sin. People follow their own powers of self, and rarely seek God's power in their lives. Narrow is the path than leads to eternal life, but wide and broad the way to a state of non-existence. Seems like most do not want to be loved by our loving Saviour.
It's not enough to live your life your way, and seek Jesus at the end of your life. The salvation process is by faith, so every day we walk in his power, or we remain sinners walking in our own powers.
I find been humble is difficult to achieve, and learning to be meek and seeking Jesus in faith is also difficult to attain. For a child unencumbered without baggage of sins, a bit easier, but as you get older your mistakes over a whole life, add burdens to you.
I am happy your daughters seek church now and than. It's good they look up to you and like you as their dad. You must be getting your spring now, time to grow veggies and sweep the snow off the path. It's getting cold here and I am trying to put shadecloth over my [pawpaw trees] so they can ward off the cold air, and keep growing. Love the fruit off the pawpaw tree.
Australian elections was rigged, the Labor Party got in, so we are into the worst one time order, and lots of restrictions. And even sold to the UN for pandemic issues. The end of time is not far way I feel. Take care and be that great dad I have learned you to be.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on May 23, 2022 7:52:14 GMT -5
I get the impression Salvation is difficult to achieve in a fallen world encumbered with temptations of sin. Who taught you this? - Not Jesus Christ! - Not scripture!Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Why is it so hard for you to believe? – Belief is all that is required!People follow their own powers of self, and rarely seek God's power in their lives. Narrow is the path than leads to eternal life, but wide and broad the way to a state of non-existence. Seems like most do not want to be loved by our loving Saviour. You are bearing a false witness against scripture You and your word games have rewritten scripture into something it does not saybiblereasons.com/narrow-path/Narrow PathMatthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. You do not understand the calling of the Gospel We are to be more than followers – we are called to be disciples for the Lord – to Jer 1:5 We are called to be FIRST FRUITS – you totally deny the conceptEnter the NARROW GATEJoh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Enter the NARROW GATE – become a Born Again Christian – and witness Become a disciple – more than just a followerLuke 13:23-25 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them. Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Did Jesus say 99% of people are doomed – NO Jesus restated the call to become a disciple – to become First FruitsMatthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Pretenders Mark 4:15-17 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Correct – many believers – simply just stay believers and beliefs can change or waneMatthew 23:28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. God knows who you are 1 John 3:8-10 The person who lives a sinful life belongs to the devil, because the devil has been committing sin since the beginning. The reason that the Son of God appeared was to destroy what the devil does. Those who have been born from God don’t live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can’t live sinful lives. They have been born from God. This is the way God’s children are distinguished from the devil’s children. Everyone who doesn’t do what is right or love other believers isn’t God’s child. Those who have been born from God don’t live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can’t live sinful lives.This requires communion with the Lord – Communion with the Spirit = God lives in them if God is standing beside you- you will not sin If God is looking right at you – you will not sinIs a Born Again Christian always in Communion with the Spirit? If we were – we would just be Christ Paul Romans 7 – we are not only spirit – we are also trapped with a body of Flesh – and flesh comes with (yester ra) Rom 7:14 For we know that the Torah is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold to sin. Rom 7:15 For I do not understand what I am doing—for what I do not want, this I practice; but what I hate, this I do. Rom 7:16 But if I do what I do not want to do, then I agree with the Torah—that it is good. Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I doing it, but sin dwelling in me. Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me—that is, in my flesh. For to will is present in me, but to do the good is not. Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do; but the evil that I do not want, this I practice. Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I doing it, but sin that dwells in me. Is a Born Again Christian always in Communion with the Spirit? If we were – we would just be Christ But now we are so aware of our own flesh and embarrassed by itIt's not enough to live your life your way, and seek Jesus at the end of your life. The salvation process is by faith, so every day we walk in his power, or we remain sinners walking in our own powers.Salvation is not a process – you are saved by belief – or you do not believe Salvation is only the first step – the next step is Pentecost – Personal Pentecost – HarvestAct 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. All of the disciples were believers – and they followed The next step is Personal Pentecost – and they resumed Christ’s work on earthI find been humble is difficult to achieve,You are righteously arrogant – only you know the right answer – and you can make limits for God to obey and learning to be meek and seeking Jesus in faith is also difficult to attain.Why is it hard for you to believe that Jesus Christ was God incarnate and belief is all that is required for salvation and eternal life?
God could not make it any easier for you – why do you make it hard?----------- Origen taught universalism – all will be saved in the end If you look into it – there is a strong argument for it – God is Love and Merciful 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some consider slowness. Rather, He is being patient toward you—not wanting anyone to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But Origen goes too far saying satan will be saved – not scriptural (Rev 20) Why is Orgen wrongEASY ANSWER – the Beast is made with SOME MATTER – and all the physical world will pass away! Rev 20 – when hell and the grave spill their contents into the Lake of Fire – we have no idea how many are still in there – might be empty – we are not told Gen 18:32 Then he said, “Please, let not my Lord be angry, so I may speak once more. Perhaps ten will be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.” --------- Before I studied Judaism or The Nag Hammadi – I justified it for myself by saying Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, AND when we wake up in heaven face to face with our creator – we will believe – guaranteed ------------ But with the addition of Judaism and the bag Hammadi I have come to see the truth of 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad. Proportional Punishment – or Proportional RewardJews – cross over with earthly clothing that is stained with sin – that clothing must be cleansed / purified before entering the Bosom of Abraham Jews cross over with earthly clothing that stinks of sin – but in the presence of the Lord that small wears off Jews cross over with earthly clothing riddled with guilt – and our own shame is our own personal hell But Jews also teach – the Divine Pardon – totally Zech 3 Joshua is being judged after death Satan – and angel of the Lord is the prosecutor – is Joshua guilty of sin – of course he is God – the Judge – gives the Divine Pardon Christians have – 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad. OR – the Divine Pardon – Death in Christ – First Fruits – in paradise with Christ TODAY Gnostic - Asclepius 21-29 - NHLThere is a great demon. The great God has appointed him to be overseer or judge over the souls of men. And God has placed him in the middle of the air, between earth and heaven. Now when the soul comes forth from (the) body, it is necessary that it meet this daimon. Immediately, he (the daimon) will surround this one (masc.), and he will examine him in regard to the character that he has developed in his life. And if he finds that he piously performed all of his actions for which he came into the world, this (daimon) will allow him ... (1 line missing) ... turn him [...]. But if he sees [...] in this one [...] he brought his life into evil deeds, he grasps him, as he flees upward, and throws him down, so that he is suspended between heaven and earth, and is punished with a great punishment. And he will be deprived of his hope, and will be in great pain. Without the Divine Pardon – Death in Christ – First Fruits – in paradise with Christ TODAY = Proportional Punishment until purifiedI cannot find the quote right now – but I have quoted Enoch to you before He says – we are tormented until we forget what we forgotOR – until we remember There are 3 types of ChristiansFirst Fruits – receivers of the Divine Pardon – Born Again Believers – saved but not a Divine pardon until after purification – Proportional Punishment And the lost – who never graduate from Proportional Punishment God is Loving and merciful = fair – to each man his due – proportional God is Loving and merciful = fair – and the opportunity for a do-over (reincarnation)
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