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Post by Dave on Nov 27, 2021 1:39:50 GMT -5
D"Why did Jesus show such faith to His Father? – because he is the Father R" Can one being support himself? Is this possible? All Presbyterian + the reformed Church + Catholics + Baptist – and especially the evangelical forms of those groups = all believe in the Trinity
Jews had a duality – The Creator + the shekinah- the form of God (Spirit) that comes among the people The ahl says – God the Father is the Creator – and he is the only One (Isa 45:5)
The agl says Christ is the Creator – all things through Him – no one else (John 1:1-4) The ahl says it was the spirit of God that made man (Job 33:4)
God the Father = the One True Creator – no other Christ is the Creator – it is all by Him for Him The HS is the creator of man – Gen 1:25 let US
There is only one true creator – God – The Spirit of God – and the Image of God
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; he saw it and was thrilled.” Joh 8:57 Then the Judeans said to Him, “You’re not even fifty years old and you’ve seen Abraham?” Joh 8:58 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, before Abraham was, I am!”
Exo 3:13 But Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to Bnei-Yisrael and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His Name?’ What should I say to them?” Exo 3:14 God answered Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. ” Then He said, “You are to say to Bnei-Yisrael, ‘I AM’ has sent me to you.”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Godhead - Chuck Missler
I thought the word meaning of support is relational? One being supports another being. The word meaning of support implies that a second entity is required. Why is you God unable to Love His creation? Does creation love God back – who knows – it does not matter – True Love is unrequited
Isa 45:5 I am Adonai—there is no other. Besides Me there is no God. … Psa 86:10 For You are great, and do wonders—You alone are God. … Isa 45:18 For thus says Adonai—He is God who fashioned the heavens, who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it desolate but formed it to be inhabited—“I am Adonai—there is no other!” 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
If Jesus was essentially the Father, than I see no support concept here at all. If the words spoken by Jesus are coming from the mouth of the Father, than there is no support demonstrated here.
You see how many problems your doctrine gets into by denying the spirit Jesus was the Son of Man (Mortal / biology / yester ra) Christ was the Son of God (the definition of yester tov) Jesus + Christ was (man) + (Christ) – (Jesus the man) + (Christ – who is God in an image) Jesus + Christ = man + God = GOD INCATNATE – God incarnated in the form of a man Gen 2:7 – biology + breath = human being Jesus the man = the biology (Son of Man) + God = Jesus Christ = God in the image of a man
I suppose Jesus could be matter in a biological form, and the biological matter speaks the words of the Father, to the Father who is elsewhere as spirit (without matter), is this a form of support? Now you raise the ideas of thinking beyond what is reasonable for a child to understand? E=mc2 E= the Father – ABSOLUTELY BEYOUND DISCRIPTION – UN IMAGINABLE E= is on the other side of the equation
Job 11:7 Can you discover the mysteries of God? Can you find the limits of Shaddai? Job 11:8 They are higher than the heavens—what can you do? They are deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Job 11:9 Its measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea.
D"You teach that you need to practice religion every day to maintain your salvation Why isn’t the cross enough for you? R" Before you mock, how much do you understand my view? Have you read anything from Spiritual Springs? For the MILLIONITH TIME – all that is required is belief = belief the Jesus Christ was God incarnate – who died a mortal death – to open the Divine Pardon to all who believe this
All who believe are saved to eternal life in the end All who are saved are written in the Book of Life All who are saved – are saved from the LAKE OF FIRE – which is the second death Does not matter if you believed for 75 years – or if you believed for 75 seconds
So what is the benefit for believing for 75 years vrs 75 seconds Answer – time to earn reward We are all judged for our DEEDS, WORKS, and FRUIT 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.
Proportional Punishment – is a sliding scale of REWARD More REWARD = less punishment – less time in punishment For a Jew – max time – 12 months and the average = 11 months (because nobody can bell all bad) Gnostic – Proportional – each as they deserve
ALL who believe will arise at the FIRST RESURECTION – saved just as promised (Rev 20:5) BUT- those who are FIRST FRUITS were already near the throne serving God in heaven (Rev 20:4)
R" so isn't being filled by the Spirit, is something we do, and hence according to you a ritual? It is nothing about what we do – there is no incantation or special prayer that forces God to respond All we have to do is believe and ask Are all who ask filled – NO Why – quality of belief? Or something else – or God did choose you to be filled Sometimes the answer to prayer = NO
How are you filled Dave? Mat 7:7 “Ask, and it shall be given to you. Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened to you. Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it shall be opened.
D"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, - is a delusional pretender R" But you mocked me, with doing a ritual? I mock that you say ritual is necessary
So Dave you need to clarify what you are talking about. A doer of the word is one doing amanuah. I agree with your statement - A doer of the word is one doing amanuah. A doer of the word is obeying a written law This is different that fallowing the calling of the spirit
R" OK what's the difference between forced doing and natural doing? Forced doing = A doer of the word is obeying a written law This is different that fallowing the calling of the spirit
Example – scripture tells us to stay away from wicked women What if the spirit moves you to witness to them – should you refuse the calling? I do not want to live in LA – if the spirit moves me to move – should I reuse? It didn’t work for Jonah
So if you do faith using Jesus powers, than the fruits of that faith come from God, not from you doing pious doings using your powers of self. You are speaking of the Gifts of the Spirit
Definitions – are you saying that a head hunter that is nice to his mother – is the HS working through him? DEEDS – the things we do WORKS – how we carry out (Jer 1:5) – woringh the message – working the witness – the only work that matters FRUIT – bringing others to the LORD
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.
The Final Judgment – where you receive the Divine Pardon from the Lake of Fire UNLESS – you already received the Divine Pardon by dying in Christ – Elijah – Enoch – Joshua (Zec 3) the man on the cross next to Jesus in Paradise today – Steven Acts 16 The Parable of Luke 16 (real or parable) one man is in the Bosom of Abraham (First Fruits) and one man is in punishment/ torment / which is proportional – each man his due
FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT – things that happen only because of the power of the HS flowing through you
WORKS – with my own (yester tov) I can witness to you all day long for the Lord FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT – by the laying on of hands – the power of the HS flows through me into the recipient – could be healing – could be an exorcism
FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT – strike the rock for water in the Lords name – or strike the rock out of anger Moses gnosis God – he yada God – first named basis – persona experience But even Moses had to pay for his own DEEDS/WORKS
D"YES - you ignore origins of words and grammar R" The Bible says to let Scripture sentences define the word, not use grammar and origins of the word. Is the sola scriptoria defines the word, not history or origin or precepts of men. 1- you are wrong and you know it – “precept upon precept, line upon line” It is the same concept – the same teaching – the same idea over and over and over until you understand 2- the sola scriptoria – is only the Roman version – written by Erasmus who is banned from reading After watching Caesars messiah – do you still deny the Roman Edit? Or do you support Roman as the only Christian authority? Be Honest – do you know how?
D"Please prove to me that precept upon precept, line upon line – your doctrine is scriptural R" If you look up all the sentences containing cherub in them you find one verse with chata next to the word cherub. Correct – you have one verse D"Please prove to me that precept upon precept, line upon line – your doctrine is scriptural It is the same concept – the same teaching – the same idea over and over and over until you understand
You ignore studying scripture in this way. BS – this is the only way to study scripture – it must validate itself
So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals" Gordon, 2003 Here Gordon us saying what your saying watch the grammar rules. "It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural."(Gordon, 2003). Gordon says what your saying, grammar dictates the meaning of some words in sentences.
Elohiym is a plural noun – it means gods – it means strong authorities All of the ahl’s ‘other gods’ were plural – there are 33 of them in scripture All of the ‘other gods’ of all the 99% were plural – many names – different types
Elohiym is a plural noun – it means gods – it means strong authorities UNLESS it is written as THE ELOHIYM – then there is only one of those
"Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a "great God". On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them. Correct – they are archon – serpent race – ‘other gods’
The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them." Correct – any one of them is NOT THE ELOHIYM – there is only one of those All of them are Archon – many of them – many types
Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods YES they did – and we know them as the Rephiem – who are post Flood Nephilim – and the gods they worship are archon – plural – many of them
I thought Ashtoret was a elohiym power in a family of deities? Correct – just as the Greek gods were a family – just as the Roman gods – or Norse gods – on Indochina gods – or African gods All archon- the ‘other gods’ of the 99%
(1) Ge 20:13 - here Elohim gets a plural verb. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". From this verse alone it indeed appears that Abraham worshipped multiple gods whom he believed had caused him to wander from his father's house. However, this hardly fits the overall picture."
Dave’s comment – you are absolutely incorrect In Hebrew = וַיְהִ֞י כַּאֲשֶׁ֧ר הִתְע֣וּ אֹתִ֗י אֱלֹהִים֮ מִבֵּ֣ית אָבִי֒ וָאֹמַ֣ר לָ֔הּ זֶ֣ה חַסְדֵּ֔ךְ אֲשֶׁ֥ר תַּעֲשִׂ֖י עִמָּדִ֑י אֶ֤ל כָּל־הַמָּקֹום֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר נָבֹ֣וא שָׁ֔מָּה אִמְרִי־לִ֖י אָחִ֥י הֽוּא׃ Grammar Hebrew origin, verb, qal, wayyiqtol form (also known as waw-consecutive) 3rd person, masculine, singular
In Greek = Gen 20:13 ἐγένετο δὲ ἡνίκα ἐξήγαγέν με ὁ θεὸς ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ πατρός μου, καὶ εἶπα αὐτῇ Ταύτην τὴν δικαιοσύνην ποιήσεις ἐπ᾿ ἐμέ· εἰς πάντα τόπον, οὗ ἐὰν εἰσέλθωμεν ἐκεῖ, εἰπὸν ἐμὲ ὅτι Ἀδελφός μού ἐστιν. Grammar = Verb, Tense: Aorist, Voice: Middle, Mood: Indicative Person: third [he/she/it], Number: Singular
What is third person? a set of linguistic forms (such as verb forms, pronouns, and inflectional affixes) referring to one that is neither the speaker or writer of the utterance in which they occur nor the one to whom that utterance is addressed "they" is a pronoun of the third person.
Why is Gen 20:13 written in the 3rd person? Gen 20:11 Abraham said, “Because I thought, ‘There is certainly no fear of God in this place, so they’ll kill me, because of my wife.’ Gen 20:12 And besides, she really is my sister. She’s my father’s daughter, though not my mother’s daughter. Then she became my wife. Gen 20:13 So when God made me wander
Abraham is telling us about what God did – what elohiym in the 3rd person did
(1) Ge 20:13 - here Elohim gets a plural verb. Dave’s comment – you are absolutely incorrect
D"All you have are two words R" No I have more than two words, R" If you look up all the sentences containing cherub in them you find one verse with chata next to the word cherub. Please make up your mind –try to be consistent with your evidence my line upon line study method is completely different to how you read Scripture to begin with Everyone I have ever met accepts scripture – precept upon precept, line upon line Scripture must validate itself Why do you deny scripture? Scripture says precept upon precept, line upon line scripture must validate itself So why do you study scripture any onther wat than taught by scripture?
Please post your commentary of 2 Cor 12:1-9 Paul speaks of some who have visions. 2Co 12:12 - Paul came in signs and wonders and deeds, is this not enough for you?
Sorry – your attempt to blow off the question is rejected 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Messiah (whether in the body I don’t know, or whether out of the body I don’t know—God knows)—fourteen years ago, he was caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows)— 2Co 12:4 he was caught up into Paradise and heard words too sacred to tell, which a human is not permitted to utter.
Please post your commentary of Mark 1:8 There are two phases of the HS, the empowered phase and the non-empowered phase. Only after Jesus died for the penalty of sin-offering could the HS empower supporters with salvation truly. Until Jesus died, those saved were saved on the promise of His death. OK – answer your own question – how do you get this empowered state?
Please post your commentary of Acts 2:17-18 During the Sunday Law decree and maybe before this time, young people will be given visions of the soon return of Jesus to earth.
Sorry – your attempt to blow off the question is rejected Act 2:18 Even on My slaves, male and female, I will pour out My Ruach in those days, and they shall prophesy. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Act 8:14 Now when the emissaries in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the message of God, they sent Peter and John to them. Act 8:15 They came down and prayed for them to receive the Ruach ha-Kodesh. Act 8:16 For He had not yet come upon them; they had only been immersed in the name of the Lord Yeshua. Act 8:17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Ruach ha-Kodesh. LAYING ON OF HANDS AND RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT
Why do you mock scripture – why do you mock the spirit R" I do not mock Scripture nor the HS? Why do you pose such a thing? Act 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be immersed in the name of Messiah Yeshua for the removal of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
Act 2:4 They were all filled with the Ruach ha-Kodesh and began to speak in other tongues as the Ruach enabled them to speak out. Act 2:8 How is it that we each hear our own birth language?
Is this true – or just a story – do you believe this scripture or not You mock the idea – you say it does not happen today – impossible
D" You say man is nothing more that the HS empowered person Why did Jesus promise to send the Comforter – if it is already who you are?
R"The HS is just a medium for allowing Jesus to empower us with His powers. You argue man has no spirit – man is biology empowered by the HS How does your HS empower the HS? Why does your HS need to be empowered MY HS = the Spirit of God 24/7
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 16:08:13 GMT -5
Greetings Dave I watch your video of Chuck Missler:” Chuck uses “ us, our “ as references to trinity Chuck say elohim 680 a plural noun. also treated as a singular verb Chuck says God is both plurality and unity at the same time, such like a corporation is one example Chuck says God is like a partnership of three people that get along perfectly 2:44 Chuck says go through Ps 2 make a diagram of who's speaking...who are three people speaking... one if Father, SOn and HS. persons of the Godhead Chuck uses the term “ each member of the Godhead” These are the same words a SDA person would use to describe God Nothing like your view Dave, nothing like your words Nothing that says God is one being, one person, who has three expressions of God Like ? Like what? No example of this on earth… You present a trinity that cannot be explained… You pretend Chuck is explaining your view, when He is not. D” You see how many problems your doctrine gets into by denying the spiritR" What problems? You make a flaw in your first assumption. You assume biology has yester ra already as soon as your born into biology. However I will accept Jesus took on fallen flesh, like humans have, ie was born with yester ra, as you claim. Than you make statements without discussions, so I cannot follow you. D" the Father – ABSOLUTELY BEYOUND DISCRIPTION – UN IMAGINABLER" So than you cannot describe your trinity as three expressions of one Being can you? You don't know? D" For the MILLIONITH TIME – all that is required is belief = belief the Jesus Christ was God incarnate – who died a mortal death – to open the Divine Pardon to all who believe this
All who believe are saved to eternal life in the endR" There you go again, using the word "amanuah" again, behind the "believe" word. Are you saying "all that is required is knowing a certain fact = knowing the fact that the Jesus Christ was God incarnate – who died a mortal death – to open the Divine Pardon to all who know this certain fact ? Why the devils know this certain fact of Jesus, but are not willing to be saved by Jesus? Jas 2:19 ..the devils also believe, and tremble. But what Scripture presents is this all that is required is faith= faith in Jesus Christ who was God incarnate – who died a mortal death – to open the Divine Pardon to all who do this faith in Jesus are saved. Salvation is not largely based on yada, or daath, but on amanuah. D" So what is the benefit for believing for 75 years vrs 75 seconds Answer – time to earn rewardR" Now you turn "knowledge of a fact" into a process of time, hence you are using faith now, so what is the benefit of 75 yrs of faith verses 75 seconds of faith? Answer - the time to earn reward. Dave you are mixing terms, confused. Faith is a word that is a process , an action, using time. Yada or Daath, to "know a certain fact" is not based on time, nor is a process. D" For a Jew – max time – 12 months and the average = 11 months (because nobody can bell all bad) Gnostic – Proportional – each as they deserveR" Now you write statements not found in Inspired Scripture, maybe Jews support ideas not found in the inspired writings, maybe they support secular writings. D" I agree with your statement - A doer of the word is one doing amanuah. A doer of the word is obeying a written law This is different than following the calling of the spiritR" How is faith different to following the calling of the Spirit? You never discuss your ideas Dave? Are you afraid to talk? Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. When the Holy Spirit speaks to you (the voice of the Father, or the voice of the Son, or the voice of the HS - could be any or all of these, it doesn't matter) you are expected to obey. Obviously this is not an example of faith, it's like the Divine speaking to you directly. Ac 10:19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. There are lots of examples that the MEDIUM allows GOD to talk directly to you via your conscience in your mind Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying Even examples in the OT too, that GOD talks to us. D" Forced doing = A doer of the word is obeying a written law This is different that fallowing the calling of the spiritR" You are confused Dave. 1) You can like a child obey the voice of God speaking to you via your conscience 2) You can do the commands of the law, using your own powers of self (while this make you look and seem pious, this effort means nothing to God and you are still in your sins, when you do this) or 3) You can speak in your mind a prayer to God, saying His words, and allowing the flow of His power, empower you, that you are able to do the commandments you speak, seeking the power from God to do them, thus there is a partnership, a co-operation of both your hand and God's hand, doing things together For example you walk and see a woman, Lord keep my eye single, control my tongue, your words, not mine. And you can approach and witness to here without sinning. But if you do not prayer seeking such words of promised power, you will do things using self, and such power means nothing to God, you encounter with the woman will become to you one of sin. I hope this is clear, how faith works inside the person, you cannot tell by looking o the outside if the person is using self or God, but God looks on the inside. By their fruits of love, you will know them. D" You are speaking of the Gifts of the SpiritR" Than you complicate things. Let's get the basics right first. D" DEEDS – the things we do WORKS – how we carry out (Jer 1:5) – woringh the message – working the witness – the only work that matters FRUIT – bringing others to the LORDR" You write definitions that leave God out... Paul speaks of two things" Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh... So one concept is works of the flesh, or when a person does things using self powers Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God Another concept of works is doing faith, a gift from God. Jas 1:3 the trying of your faith worketh patience as a gift of promised power, sometimes God gives it you, and sometimes God doesn't give it to you Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God Wisdom is a power from the HS, so if you lack, ask of the Father Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. Claim the promised powers in the word, without doubting Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James is speaking of faith verses the outflows from that faith, God's works in you, as you claim the powers of God to do, some may claim the promised powers of God, but not do anything with those powers. Such a man is worthless, though he claims the powers from God to do, does nothing with God's powers. Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. No point asking for God's powers to do, if you choose not to use those powers. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James makes a simile here, it is the HS that allows your body to live and function. Just as it is faith that empowers your mind to do righteousness with God. If you try to live without the HS, you are a walking dead person. If you try to do without faith empowering you, your pious deeds mean nothing to God. Or you say you have faith, but do not use God in your life, you are also a dead person. FRUIT, are the works of GOD wrought via your co-operation with God. Not your deeds lest any man should boast. You seem to have different views for FRUIT and FRUIT of the SPIRIT. Hmm? I will not push for complex ideas. FRUIT is often a word for AB, the Father. So is really an aspect of the PROVIDER in Heaven. D" WORKS – with my own (yester tov) I can witness to you all day long for the LordR" Ye can do nothing without Jesus empowering you to do, hence there are no works acceptable in God's eyes. I simply allow HIS WORKS to flow in me, to His glory. I am only a medium to allow this flow of God in me, and it is with great joy that this flow moves me with such a flow, for only when I am yoked with God can I walk with Him, and do as He wants to do in me. D" FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT – by the laying on of hands – the power of the HS flows through me into the recipient – could be healing – could be an exorcismR" I am unworthy for such a thing. My brother has allowed God to achieve this three times, maybe more. He is a Pastor of my church. God bless those gifted to receive a greater flow of His power through them. D" 1- you are wrong and you know it 2- the sola scriptoria – is only the Roman version – written by Erasmus who is banned from reading 3- After watching Caesars messiah – do you still deny the Roman Edit?R" I feel sorry for you Dave. Now you say the entire NT was made up by the Flavians. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: All writings are inspired of elohiym. Did the Flavians know about the "cela" rock that followed them? that rock was "Christ"? How many Internet sources speak of the "cela rock of Jesus" ? Do Jews understand the term "cela" rock being the promised Messiah? Did the Flavians or Joesephus write about the "cela" ? I doubt it. In fact when I studied this, only Mrs White our SDA prophet speaks of the term, nobody else does. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1067.htmI suggest you read this webpage and ask yourself, did the Jews or the Falvians know this? No D" Correct – you have one verseR" yes, and one verse defines faith too, Ex 17:12 yes, one passage defines elohiym power, Ephesians 3:10-16 D" Elohiym is a plural noun – it means gods – it means strong authorities All of the ahl’s ‘other gods’ were plural – there are 33 of them in scripture All of the ‘other gods’ of all the 99% were plural – many names – different types
Elohiym is a plural noun – it means gods – it means strong authorities UNLESS it is written as THE ELOHIYM – then there is only one of thoseR" talk about confusing your readers Dave. D" Elohiym is a plural noun – it means gods – it means strong authoritiesR" correct ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) D" UNLESS it is written as THE ELOHIYM – then there is only one of thoseR" ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? where does Scripture write "THE ELOHIYM" meaning one strong authority? "el" would mean one strong authority. " eloah" is one el (Father el) " el shadday" is one el (Mother el) "a baby born on earth called Mich el" is one el,, (Son el) De 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God "el", Here is a difficult passage, elohiym and adown is referenced also as "el" Possibly the only Scripture that does this. D" Correct – any one of them is NOT THE ELOHIYM – there is only one of those All of them are Archon – many of them – many typesR" Yes these archons are elohiym's but not THE ELOHIYM, ONE strong authority. How does the definite article add another meaning Dave? In Hebrew the only Hebrew meaning "THE" is "AT" used often but never translated. Do you have a verse where "AT" is used next to "elohiym" ? "AT" is used for Gen 1:1, to mean "THE EARTH" not just any planet in space, but a special one. RP" I thought Ashtoret was a elohiym power in a family of deities?D" Correct – just as the Greek gods were a family – just as the Roman gods – or Norse gods – on Indochina gods – or African godsR" so we really agree. Except you have a strange notion with "THE ELOHIYM", a Hebrew phrase that does not exist as I understand in the Hebrew? Doesn't Ephesians 3:10 to 16 declare elohiym (theos) is a FAMILY POWER? This answers my question clearly why not for you? OH, one verse, like cherub sin, one verse, like faith defined, one verse. You are bothered by these one verse definitions ain't you? How many times does God define things? Once. Gordon is quoted by Robert " (1) Ge 20:13 - here Elohim gets a plural verb. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". From this verse alone it indeed appears that Abraham worshipped multiple gods whom he believed had caused him to wander from his father's house. However, this hardly fits the overall picture." Dave’s comment – you are absolutely incorrect
Rob replies, Nehemiah Gordon is a Messianic Jew, just like you, and you disagree with his assessment? D" Why do you deny scripture?R" I don't, you do. Rabbi Apple agrees with me, that a cherub sinned. Rabbi Apple is a Pastor of a Messanic Church in Australia. I have quoted him before to you. D" 2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows)R" Paul is speaking of the function of a vision. Mrs White also had many visions, out of body or in her body, nobody knows, she stopped breathing, and looked blank, weird, and dozens witnessed this many times. D" OK – answer your own question – how do you get this empowered state?R" via faith in Jesus words, which are the words of the Father, empowered by faith in Jesus. D" Act 2:8 How is it that we each hear our own birth language?
Is this true – or just a story – do you believe this scripture or not You mock the idea – you say it does not happen today – impossibleR" Show me a church where people receive the gift of speaking known languages, as the HS empowers them to speak, so they can go out speaking that known language to others who do not know Jesus. For example there are over 7 00 dialects or known languages spoken in PNG alone. Having such a gift would be helpful in spreading the power of the gospel to PNG, but already 80% of the PNG people are SDA, or know SDA and backslide. So maybe the HS gives this gift of speaking languages more in the past. Glossolalia is not speaking a known language. Sure such a gift of the HS happens today. It did to USA English speaking Ron Wyatt a SDA person locked in Jordan in prison, spoke a rare dialect in Muslim language. D" Why does your HS need to be empoweredR" Because until Jesus died and paid for salvation, nobody was truly saved. Now those in the past are saved, the promise is fulfilled. Enoch can rest easy, so can Moses. And so we living are now fully empowered with Jesus who can truly save sinners from sinning. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 28, 2021 10:34:21 GMT -5
Greetings Dave I watch your video of Chuck Missler:” Nothing like your view Dave, nothing like your words Nothing that says God is one being, one person, who has three expressions of God It is exactly what is taught in Christianity There is one One True God – No one in Judaism believes in two gods – there is the Father and the Spirit of the father No one in Christianity believes in 3 gods – there is the Father, the spirit of the father, and the 3D image of the father
No matter how hard you try – no one here us ever going to accept your pantheism of gods God of tov – Gods of man – God that’s is a spirit (no you deny spirit – it is Gos that is a medium - and then you have a man that become a god after he dies and goes to the grave and is still there you say. Plus – you have a god of evil
No Christian or anyone here is ever going to accept your pantheism of gods There is one One True God – end of story!
D” You see how many problems your doctrine gets into by denying the spirit R" What problems? No salvation of the soul Jesus Christ cannot be God The gifts of the spirit cannot come to man Praying in the spirit is a myth
D"the Father – ABSOLUTELY BEYOUND DISCRIPTION – UN IMAGINABLE R" So than you cannot describe your trinity YEP – the Father is beyond description – that is what the scripture says Why do you deny scripture? All we can describe is the Image of God or the Spirit of God- buy God the Father is beyond discretion E cannot be described or understood – it is outside of our reality – the best description we have for E at rest = POTENTIAL But man can measure m and c2 – because they are within our reality Why do you deny scripture?
D"For the MILLIONITH TIME – All who believe are saved to eternal life in the end R" There you go again, using the word "amanuah" again, behind the "believe" word. Are you saying "all that is required is knowing a certain fact = knowing the fact that the Jesus Christ was God incarnate – who died a mortal death – to open the Divine Pardon to all who know this certain fact
I do not understand why a person that calls themselves a Christian print so many lies as a witness to the Lord – You are not having an honest discussion
Are you saying "all that is required is knowing believing a certain fact = knowing believing the fact that the Jesus Christ was God incarnate – who died a mortal death – to open the Divine Pardon to all who know believe this certain fact ?
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Yes Robert – I believe scripture – why don’t you?
But what Scripture presents is this - Jas 2:19 ..the devils also believe, and tremble. Salvation CAN not be based on amanuah. Correct – I agree with you
Mat 8:29 And they screamed, “What’s between You and us, Ben-Elohim? Have You come here to torment us, before the appointed time?”
If you understand the archon – this verse makes perfect sense
The Book of Jubilees 4. But do Thou bless me and my sons, that we may increase and multiply and replenish the earth. 5. And Thou knowest how Thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and created in order to destroy. 6. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous from henceforth and for evermore." 7. And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. 1 8. And the chief of the spirits, Mastêmâ, 2 came and said: "Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them hearken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men." 9. And He said: "Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the place of condemnation." 3 10. And one of us 4 He commanded that we should teach Noah all their medicines; for He knew that they would not walk in uprightness, nor strive in righteousness. 11. And we did according to all His words: all the malignant evil ones we bound in the place of condemnation, and a tenth part of them we left that they might be subject before Satan 5 on the earth.
Book of Enock 15:8. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. 9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; ⌈they shall be evil spirits on earth, and⌉ evil spirits shall they be called. [10. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] 11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, ⌈but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded ⌈from them⌉.
Evil spirits of this WORLD have already been judged at the Flood of Noah When is world passes away – so will they
Mat 8:29 And they screamed, “What’s between You and us, Ben-Elohim? Have You come here to torment us, before the appointed time?” 1- did the evil spirit recognize Jesus as the Christ – absolutely 2- did they know him – did they gnosis him – did they believe in Him – absolutely 3- they were judges by Him at the Flood 4- their fate – to always be in/on the earth 5- what is the fate of the earth?
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything done on it shall be exposed. 2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way
the appointed time?” – their fate is already determined 9/10th of them are already being held in chains - Jude and Enoch
D"So what is the benefit for believing for 75 years vrs 75 seconds Answer – time to earn reward Dave you are mixing terms, confused. Faith is a word that is a process , an action, using time. Yada or Daath, to "know a certain fact" is not based on time, nor is a process. You are absolutely correct to "know a certain fact" is not based on time, nor is a process. But – once you believe or gnosis – you can earn Reward in heaven by serving the Lord Do you deny that some reap rewards in heaven?
Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great! For in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
Rev 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to pay back each one according to his deeds.
Do you deny that some reap rewards in heaven? Why do they?
D"For a Jew – max time – 12 months and the average = 11 months (because nobody can bell all bad) Gnostic – Proportional – each as they deserve R" Now you write statements not found in Inspired Scripture, Rev 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to pay back each one according to his deeds. Proportional – each man according to his deeds
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then ‘He will repay everyone according to his deeds.’ Proportional – each man according to his deeds
D"I agree with your statement - A doer of the word is one doing amanuah. A doer of the word is obeying a written law This is different than following the calling of the spirit R" How is faith different to following the calling of the Spirit? You never discuss your ideas Dave? Are you afraid to talk? In Christianity it is taught that the Jew follow the Law – a list of things to do In Christianity it is taught that you cannot follow the law into salvation You say - - A doer of the word is one doing amanuah So give me your list of things to do each day
I say – I wake each morning and Praise God for my life and live the day for His Glory You say – this is not enough – you say there are things I must do each day – or I will lose my salvation So give me your list of things to do each day
Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. When the Holy Spirit speaks to you (the voice of the Father, or the voice of the Son, or the voice of the HS - could be any or all of these, it doesn't matter) because they are all the same entity – there is onle One True God - you are expected to obey. You say – this is not enough – you say there are things I must do each day – or I will lose my salvation So give me your list of things to do each day
Obviously this is not an example of faith, it's like the Divine speaking to you directly. ABSOLUTLY CORRECT – it is not the practice of religion it is God speaking directly to you – and yet you deny the gift of the spirit
Ac 10:19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying Even examples in the OT too, that GOD talks to us. – and yet you deny the gift of the spirit
D"Forced doing = A doer of the word is obeying a written law This is different that fallowing the calling of the spirit R" You are confused Dave.
If you try to live without the HS, you are a walking dead person. How is this possible in your religion – you are a HS empowered animal
D"1- you are wrong and you know it 2- the sola scriptoria – is only the Roman version – written by Erasmus who is banned from reading 3- After watching Caesars messiah – do you still deny the Roman Edit? R" I feel sorry for you Dave. Now you say the entire NT was made up by the Flavians. WHY do you think it is appropriate to lie – you Sir do not repeat the truth – and you do it deliberately? What do you call someone who deliberately tells a lie - a falsehood And you wonder why no takes you seriously – and you wonder why the spirit is missing in your life
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: All writings are inspired of elohiym. I fell sorry for you that you deny scripture You argue that only Roman scripture is valid – yet you claim not to be a Catholic
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1067.htm I suggest you read this webpage and ask yourself, did the Jews or the Falvians know this? No You did not comment on my rebuttal – why should I comment on yours – is this a two way discussion? You explain to me why my rebuttal was a complete error – I will move all my discussion to your website
Gordon is quoted by Robert " (1) Ge 20:13 - here Elohim gets a plural verb. Dave’s comment – you are absolutely incorrect Rob replies, Nehemiah Gordon is a Messianic Jew, just like you, and you disagree with his assessment? I can translate – and I disagree that the verb is bplural in the LXX Greek or the Westminster codex of the ahl Please show me the plural verb – and prove me incorrect
D"2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows) R" Paul is speaking of the function of a vision Deny away Robert – is Enoch in heaven – or is his ascension just a vision?
Glossolalia is not speaking a known language. – it is a spiritual tongue Sure such a gift of the HS happens today. It did to USA English speaking Ron Wyatt a SDA person locked in Jordan in prison, spoke a rare dialect in Muslim language. It happens today or it doesn’t – please make up your mind Or are you saying that only SDA people can receive gifts – not other Christians? Is this more of your diversionist teaching – us vrs them? Just like so called Christion Creationism – us vrs them
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2021 15:57:39 GMT -5
D" No Christian or anyone here is ever going to accept your pantheism of gods There is one One True God – end of story!R" You admit Chuck does not support your view, show me a video that does support your view Dave. I doubt the Jews support your view. They support one Father YHWH. They see ruwach as wind. They do not support Jesus as anything. The messanic Jews may supply you a video. I would love to see it. In fact show me a video of anyone who says the Father the Son and the HS are the same Being, the one and only uncaused cause. Maybe the Muslim video will do this for you, they have Allah only, no other divine being. I doubt you can supply me with a video that speaks of three expressions of the same being. By the way the SDA say there is ONE GOD, but this they mean ONE elohiym POWER which comprises of three unique divine persons of the ONE GODHEAD, the Father Son and HS, who are unifed as ONE. I take this one step further by saying that LOVE is ONE POWER but comprised of Provider love, responder love and collective love. This love is expressed in three separate and unique persons existing love as three personalities of love, the Father, the Mother and the Son, as a simile of human family. This ONE divine Family is not of matter, hence they function in ways beyond matter. However the SON has taken on a biological form of matter in order to save humans from sin. D" No salvation of the soul Jesus Christ cannot be God The gifts of the spirit cannot come to man Praying in the spirit is a mythR" The soul can receive salvation and thus have ongoing living in Jesus, our Saviour. Jesus Christ is fully divine from the divine family, who fully supported His Father's words on earth and lived entirely by faith using His Father's powers, not His own, in order to save humans from sin. Dave is stating that Jesus Christ is an expression of the Father, is not correct. In other words Dave says the father died on the Cross for our sins, is also not correct. The gifts of HS can indeed come to man after you accept salvation in Jesus. Praying in the HS is the only way humans are saved, who presents those prayers to Jesus, who presents those prayers to His Father. Salvation is thus a community effort of divinity. D" YEP – the Father is beyond description – that is what the scripture saysR" If this is so, why do you write of the Father beyond Scripture? You even add things not found in Scripture? E=MC2 is an invention of Einstein, not Scripture, your application is entirely Dave's, not Einstein either, so you are adding Dave's words to your ideas of the Father, not found in Scripture. I don't do this, I only picture the Father as the Scriptures do, nothing more nothing less. ---------------- D" Salvation CAN not be based on amanuah. Correct – I agree with youR" Do you often write oxymoron's? Salvation is based entirely on Amanuah in Jesus.Make a thread called this, and try to disagree Dave. Let's have a positive discussion? ----------------------------- D" Evil spirits of this WORLD have already been judged at the Flood of Noah did the evil spirit recognize Jesus as the Christ – absolutely 9/10th of them are already being held in chains - Jude and EnochR" agree Dave. These creatures you call archons are rulers of darkness, and are cherubim who fell from grace in heaven because they chose to sin. Verses you ignore. D" Do you deny that some reap rewards in heaven?R" correct. some love more, receive more, some love less, receive less. D" Proportional – each man according to his deedsR" OK, but not given out during your mortal death, but after you are raised as a human capable of thinking and watching the gospel in the sky, than Jesus rewards the wicked . The righteous were rewarded a 1000 years earlier. D" So give me your list of things to do each dayR" OK read the Steps to Jesus we do daily and receive your answer. spiritualsprings.org/ss-776.htmThe short study spiritualsprings.org/ss-11.htmThe longer more detailed study spiritualsprings.org/ss-1206.htmA chapter by chapter parallel study of Ellen White and Hosea study Here is a interesting pen by Mrs White spiritualsprings.org/ss-1523.htmIt's on the subject of surrender, the most important attitude to salvation from Jesus. The process of salvation (ie the SEED that grows in you) takes a long time, it makes it's own fruits in you to your Father's glory. I suppose you have no time to read this important subject, you just want a simple list ? Ho 14:1 O SINNER, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine GUILT. 2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips. The attitudes you develop and more important than the things you do, the things you do develop this attitude. The things you do are Your mind decides to turn to Jesus every day. Your mind reads His words, and memorizes those with promised power. Your mind takes those words and speaks them in the mind as a prayer for that specific power. Than you do, or are empowered to do, what that power is promised will do in you. After you praise Jesus for His power you claimed that empowered you specifically. What attitudes does this do to you? It makes you humble not proud. It makes you mourn for the covering you lost, not seek your own covering. It makes you powerfully meek, seeking Jesus words, not seeking Self. It makes you willing to share His love in you with others. D" I say – I wake each morning and Praise God for my life and live the day for His Glory You say – this is not enough – you say there are things I must do each day – or I will lose my salvationR" That is a great start Dave, no you don't lose salvation, you might lose some salvation's power for that day. Salvation is a divine person, He never gives up on you. Missing means losing the powers of Jesus in your life that very day, mainly because you failed to claim Jesus power specifically for your specific needs that day. And every day has different specific needs and journeys. However the basic process is similar. It's like walking and talking with a friend, except this friend is divine, you are not divine. D" ABSOLUTLY CORRECT – it is not the practice of religion it is God speaking directly to you – and yet you deny the gift of the spiritR" Nice ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) , I do not deny the HS. You seem to make your spirit something you call your own. Nothing we develop is ever truly our own, not even the love we developed from Jesus. Yes we are our own, but nothing we do is ever our own, we belong to Jesus, and we are lights of Jesus. We owe all things to Jesus. D" How is this possible in your religion – you are a HS empowered animalThe HS is a medium for power, does not actually talk or walk with you all the time, until you decide to walk and talk to Jesus. A medium is a channel for allowing the Father to flow into you. You can receive power from the Father and than abuse that power, waste it and sin with it. Your choice. The HS as a medium allows you do this. But only for a probation of time. If you seek Jesus, the power of the Father flows differently into you via His Son, and you are experiencing salvation unto eternal life. This process comes to you via the MEDIUM of the HS. D" WHY do you think it is appropriate to lie – you Sir do not repeat the truth – and you do it deliberately?R" sorry maybe I am sensationalizing you ... If I was discussing Bible with a person, I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all. Do not support this idea. God inspired his words, not some Rome edit. Sure Rome burned the writings, stopped people reading them, but did not edit them. Proof the reformation translated the latin into english, is proof they were still holy, because God empowered the reformation. Sure the Rome edit changes things, changed Scripture too, but not every book, God saw the truth prevail To Me, the Hebrew words OT and NT are HOLY, inspired of GOD and very pure. No edit in them. Sure some things we don't know or understand, Jesus birth... D" You argue that only Roman scripture is valid R" There you go again? SO what Hebrew Scripture is true Dave? Are you saying the OT Hebrew is different from Jewish OT Hebrew? My copy of genesis is the same as the Jewish beshish?? The Jewish word for beginning What NT writings are pure Dave? Certainly not the Greek NT. The Greek is a translation of the Hebrew, translate the Greek back to Hebrew, and you have the same teaching across the OT and NT. Should we do this? Yes Ho 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. Jesus comes to us in the former rain and the latter rain, in Hebrew. Does the Hebrew go out into another tongue? Yes Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. But the lips are stammering, to get the message pure, translate the Greek back to hebrew. D" You explain to me why my rebuttal was a complete error – I will move all my discussion to your websiteR" OK what rebuttal? D" Please show me the plural verb R" I am no expert Dave, why "gods" or "God" here? Ge 3:5 (KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Ge 3:5 (ASV) for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. Ge 3:5 (BBE) For God sees that on the day when you take of its fruit, your eyes will be open, and you will be as gods, having knowledge of good and evil. Ge 3:5 (DBY) but God knows that in the day ye eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and ye will be as God, knowing good and evil. Ge 3:5 (MKJV) for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Ge 3:5 (NKJV) "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Ge 3:5 (RSV) For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Ge 3:5 (WEB) for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Ge 3:5 (YLT) for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it--your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.' And Ex 20:3 (KJV) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Ex 20:3 (ASV) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Ex 20:3 (BBE) You are to have no other gods but me. Ex 20:3 (DBY) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Ex 20:3 (MKJV) You shall have no other gods before Me. Ex 20:3 (NKJV) "You shall have no other gods before Me. Ex 20:3 (RSV) "You shall have no other gods before me. Ex 20:3 (WEB) You shall have no other gods before me. Ex 20:3 (YLT) `Thou hast no other Gods before Me. Both of these verses use " elohiym" as a plural. -------------------------- R" Paul is speaking of the function of a visionD" Deny away Robert – is Enoch in heaven – or is his ascension just a vision?R" Who says Paul is speaking of Enoch, not written here? -------------------------- D" – it is a spiritual tongueR" Glossolalia is not a spiritual tongue, the language of angels, etc. God spoke and gave Edenic Hebrew to Adam, a known language, not Glossolalia. Prove to me Glossolalia has grammar rules of a language. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 28, 2021 23:12:29 GMT -5
I doubt the Jews support your view. They support one Father YHWH. They see ruwach as wind. Shekhinah: The Divine Feminine | My Jewish Learninghttps://www.myjewishlearning.com › Evergreen In contemporary Jewish discourse, the term shekhinah most commonly refers to the divine feminine, or to the feminine aspect of God — God as mother, ... Your made up ignorance of Judaism is showingThe messanic Jews may supply you a video. I would love to see it.I have Jewish videos on this forum – you said you watched them long ago D"No salvation of the soul R" The soul can receive salvation and thus have ongoing living in Jesus, our Saviour.Yet you say the soul is not immortal? Dave is stating that Jesus Christ is an expression of the Father, is not correct. In other words Dave says the father died on the Cross for our sins, is also not correct. We have been over and over this –why do you consider lying an effect form of Christian witness?Jesus the man died upon the cross – no one killed Christ – Christ returned to heaven and witnessed to those from the Days of NoahD"YEP – the Father is beyond description – that is what the scripture says R" If this is so, why do you write of the Father beyond Scripture? I say it because scripture says it - Isaiah 55:8-9, Job 36:26, Deut 29:29, Job 5:9, Job 11:7, Job 36:22-23, Psa 139:1-6, Pro 25:2, Isa 40:28, Rom 11:33:34, 1 Cor 2:11, 1 Cor 2:16, Ecc 3:11 God is beyond our understanding – beyond our comprehension – he cannot be located or measured ---------------- D"Salvation CAN not be based on amanuah. Correct – I agree with you R" Do you often write oxymoron's? Salvation is based entirely on Amanuah in Jesus.the devils know this certain fact of Jesus, but are not willing to be saved by Jesus? Jas 2:19 ..the devils also believe, and tremble. Salvation is not largely based on yada, or daath, but on amanuah. Jas 2:19 G4100 – πιστεύω - to have faith (amanuah) So – according to you – all devils are saved top eternal life – they πιστεύω - to have faith (amanuah) and you claim you do not preach satanism D"Do you deny that some reap rewards in heaven? R" correct. some love more, receive more, some love less, receive less. How do you love more? – Tell me which of your loved ones do you love more? Tell me which of your 4 gods do you love more R" That is a great start Dave, no you don't lose salvation, Then why do you preach that you can lose your salvationSalvation is a divine person, He never gives up on you. Then why do you preach that you can lose your salvationD"WHY do you think it is appropriate to lie – you Sir do not repeat the truth – and you do it deliberately? R" sorry maybe I am sensationalizing you ...Correct - at the expense of accuracy.If I was discussing Bible with a person,What the hell are you doing on this forum if you are not discussing scripture and it implications?So – you admit – you are not serious with me – or even trying to be?I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all. I know – you ignored history – call it fake – only Rome Knows best You also ignore the other major branches of Christianity – for you it is Rome and Rome only I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all.Sure Rome burned the writings, stopped people reading them, but did not edit them. I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all. Sure the Rome edit changes things, changed Scripture too, but not every book, I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all To Me, NT are HOLY, inspired of GOD and very pure. No edit in them.Yet you refuse to discuss the baster verses or the Luke Mathew conflict, or the Steven ahl conflict, or the Ezk Numbers conflict – you just pretend thet donlt exist Yet you refuse to that the sum total of scripture is more than Rome allows You acknowledge that Rome filtered out many texts – destroyed themI would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all.What NT writings are pure Dave? Certainly not the Greek NT.I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all.D"You explain to me why my rebuttal was a complete error – I will move all my discussion to your website R" OK what rebuttal?So serious it is amazing - D"Please show me the plural verb R" I am no expert Dave, why "gods" or "God" here?Ge 3:5 (KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. OH good one – your KJV sucks doesn’t it Elohiym is plural both places
Why is the first elohiym God singular in English Answer – because the translators understand who the speaker is – the One True God – singular Why is the second elohiym plural at times – Answer – because the translators understand it could be God singular –or- ‘other gods’ plural Why doesn’t it matter – because the elohiym singularity is a plurality called the Trinity Ge 3:5 - Ex 20:3 - Both of these verses use "elohiym" as a plural.When referring to non-God gods – correct – there are many of them-------------------------- R" Paul is speaking of the function of a vision D" Deny away Robert – is Enoch in heaven – or is his ascension just a vision? R" Who says Paul is speaking of Enoch, not written here? Paul is speaking of himself – too bad you cannot read and understand English-------------------------- Prove to me Glossolalia has grammar rules of a language.Are you 5 years old on a school yard? - Prove it doesn’t!
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Post by Dave on Nov 29, 2021 11:27:26 GMT -5
Dave is stating that Jesus Christ is an expression of the Father, is not correct.Dave is just repeating mainstream Christianity - and the Trinitywww.learnreligions.com/basic-christian-beliefs-700357Get to Know the Basic Beliefs of Christianity
Core Christian beliefs are summarized in the gospel of Jesus Christ While many theological differences exist among Christians, most hold a set of beliefs in common
God the Father There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; Galatians 4:8-9). God is omniscient, meaning he "knows all things" (Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20). God is omnipotent, meaning he is "all-powerful" (Psalm 115:3; Revelation 19:6). God is omnipresent, meaning he is "present everywhere" (Jeremiah 23:23, 24; Psalm 139). God is sovereign (Zechariah 9:14; 1 Timothy 6:15-16). God is holy (1 Peter 1:15). God is just or "righteous" (Psalm 19:9, 116:5, 145:17; Jeremiah 12:1). God is love (1 John 4:8). God is true (Romans 3:4; John 14:6). God is the creator of everything that exists (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24). God is infinite and eternal. He has always been and will ever be God (Psalm 90:2; Genesis 21:33; Acts 17:24). God is immutable. He does not change (James 1:17; Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 46:9-10).
The Trinity God is three in one or a Trinity; God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; John 14:16-17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Acts 2:32-33, John 10:30,17:11, 21; 1 Peter 1:2).
Jesus Christ the Son Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1, 14, 10:30-33, 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:8). Jesus was born of a virgin (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:26–35). Jesus Christ became a man (Philippians 2:1-11). Jesus is fully God and fully man (Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus Christ is perfect and sinless (1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15). Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).
The Holy Spirit God is Spirit (John 4:24). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:11-12; 2 Corinthians 13:14).Dave is just repeating mainstream Christianity - and the TrinityThere is only one GodGod is Spirit The Holy Spirit is GodJesus Christ is God Jesus is fully GodThe Trinity God is three in one or a Trinity; God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy SpiritDave is just repeating mainstream Christianity - and the TrinityMainstream Christinity does NOT support 3 different gods worlking together so love can exist between them as Robert preaches Mainstream Christianity does NOT support Roberts idea that Christ died on the cross and is still in the grave in some way as Ellen White teaches Mainstream Christianity does support that as Jesus the Son of Man died a mortal death upon the cross- the spirit of Christ was released back into God's hands and then went to preach in HADES to those that died at the time of Noah. Dave is just repeating mainstream Christianity - and the TrinityRobert is just attacking mainstream Christianity as a good SDA Christian is taught to do
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2021 13:46:40 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D"Your made up ignorance of Judaism is showingwww.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-divine-feminine-in-kabbalah-an-example-of-jewish-renewal/R" Jews do not consider the Holy Spirit as a separate mother like being," In contemporary Jewish discourse, the term shekhinah most commonly refers to the divine feminine, or to the feminine aspect of God — God as mother," is considered a part of the Father. D" I have Jewish videos on this forum – you said you watched them long agoR" Yes Jewish videos, but none showing Gnostics views from a Jewish view? D" Yet you say the soul is not immortal?R" correct the soul is not immortal D" Jesus the man died upon the cross – no one killed Christ – Christ returned to heaven and witnessed to those from the Days of NoahR" so you agree with the "unlearn video" you deny that Jesus actually died in the flesh? 1Jo 2:22 He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Dave said and I quote" Jesus the man died upon the cross – no one killed Christ " so do we have two Jesus forms on Jesus, one died on the cross, but another form did not die? Please explain. ----------------- D" So – according to you – all devils are saved top eternal life R" The devils have those who support their words of power, but the devils do not support Jesus words. The word "amanuah" is not a sacred word only for the divine, the word means "supporting a power using words of promised power" Harry Potter is a good example of amanuah in the Devils Spells. D" How do you love more? R" Lu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. (KJV) D" Then why do you preach that you can lose your salvationR" I don't, but there is this verse Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. D" I know – you ignored history – call it fake – only Rome Knows bestR" Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Better to edify Scripture than pull it down. D" Yet you refuse to discuss the baster verses or the Luke Mathew conflict, or the Steven ahl conflict, or the Ezk Numbers conflict – you just pretend thet donlt existR" I don't see these errors are you claim D" I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all.R" You first introduced this idea to me? ------------------------ RP" Paul is speaking of the function of a vision DP" Deny away Robert – is Enoch in heaven – or is his ascension just a vision? RP" Who says Paul is speaking of Enoch, not written here? DP" Paul is speaking of himself – too bad you cannot read and understand EnglishR" Well if Paul is speaking of himself here, why do you add " is Enoch in heaven?" you are confusing me. Paul is taken to heaven in a vision, whether in the body or out of the body, Paul doesn't know. Just the same way other prophets have experienced visions. Is not proof that humans live outside of the body, as you allure to. ---------------- D" Are you 5 years old on a school yard? - Prove it doesn’t! R" Glossolalia has been studied extensively, and is more jibberish, not following the rules of a language. www.meta-religion.com/Linguistics/Glossolalia/contemporary_linguistic_study.htm#:~:text=Samarin%20concluded%20that%20glossolalia%20is%20a%20%22pseudo-language.%22%20He,systematically%20derived%20from%20or%20related%20to%20known%20language.%22 The highly respected 1972 study of John P. Kildahl (The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues) concludes that "from a linguistic point of view, religiously inspired glossolalic utterances have the same general characteristics as those that are not religiously inspired." In fact, glossolalia is a "human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior." (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements by Spittler, P. 340).
Experts in the field of linguistics have diligently studied the phenomenon of glossolalia over a period of many years. One of the early investigations was made in the early 1960's by Eugene A. Nida. He provided a detailed list of reasons why glossolalia cannot be human language. Another early study, that of W.A. Wolfram in the year 1966, also concluded that glossolalia lacks the basic elements of human language as a system of coherent communication.
In a massive study of glossolalia from a linguistic perspective by Professor William J. Samarin of the University of Toronto's Department of Linguistics published after more than a decade of careful research, he rejected the view that glossolalia is xenoglossia, i.e. some foreign language that could be understood by another person who knew that language. Samarin concluded that glossolalia is a "pseudo-language." He defined glossolalia as "unintelligible babbling speech that exhibits superficial phonological similarity to language, without having consistent syntagmatic structure and that is not systematically derived from or related to known language." (William J. Samarin, "Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia," Language in Society, ed. Dell Haymes, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1972 pgs. 121-130)
Now Dave, prove to me glossolalia is a real language. -------------------------------- Dave quotes many verses of God the Father " There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; Galatians 4:8-9). God is omniscient, meaning he "knows all things" (Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20). God is omnipotent, meaning he is "all-powerful" (Psalm 115:3; Revelation 19:6). God is omnipresent, meaning he is "present everywhere" (Jeremiah 23:23, 24; Psalm 139). God is sovereign (Zechariah 9:14; 1 Timothy 6:15-16). God is holy (1 Peter 1:15). God is just or "righteous" (Psalm 19:9, 116:5, 145:17; Jeremiah 12:1). God is love (1 John 4:8). God is true (Romans 3:4; John 14:6). God is the creator of everything that exists (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24). God is infinite and eternal. He has always been and will ever be God (Psalm 90:2; Genesis 21:33; Acts 17:24). God is immutable. He does not change (James 1:17; Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 46:9-10)Rob replies" If you want to convince me that there verses refer to the Father, you are not very convincing. Only verses that include "ab" or "eloah" refer to the Father. "Elohiym or theos" does not mean Father, it means "elohiym power" according to Jeff Benner, a power like that of a community perhaps? For example, study this passage: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (theos or elohiym)
Now the word is broken down to the members of the Godhead, Chuck Missler words, your video, remember? Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Two mentioned here , "AB" and "YHWH Yashuah Messiah" Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; And the third HS is mentioned here. Also with term family. This passage is the only passage that defines elohiym . D" Dave is just repeating mainstream Christianity - and the TrinityR" Yes but you have to find me a video that says the trinity are expressions of the Same Being.You have not done that. D" Mainstream Christinity does NOT support 3 different gods worlking together so love can exist between them as Robert preachesR" I do not call elohiym power as three separate gods. Do not misquote me. As Chuck Missler says they are members of the ONE Godhead. D" Mainstream Christianity does NOT support Roberts idea that Christ died on the cross and is still in the grave in some way as Ellen White teachesR" I never said that, why do you misquote me Dave, and you have never apologized for doing this? Jesus died and rose from the grave, is established in Scripture. D" and then went to preach in HADES to those that died at the time of Noah.R" That is your view, not generally found in other churches. D" Dave is just repeating mainstream Christianity - and the Trinity Robert is just attacking mainstream Christianity as a good SDA Christian is taught to doR" No Dave I am not, I am asking you for a video that speaks your view of God as three expressions of the same Being. If this view is so common among mainstream Christianity it should be easy for you to do so? Please present your video? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2021 18:13:15 GMT -5
D"I have Jewish videos on this forum – you said you watched them long ago R" Yes Jewish videos, but none showing Gnostics views from a Jewish view? Jesus and all of the disciples were Jewish – the disciples were the very first Messianic Jews – the First century Christians were Messianic Jews You call them all Gnostic – so I guess Judaism is Gnostic It is outside of Rome
D"Yet you say the soul is not immortal? R" correct the soul is not immortal Then your soul dies and return to the dust and is extinguished for everD"Jesus the man died upon the cross – no one killed Christ – Christ returned to heaven and witnessed to those from the Days of Noah R" so you agree with the "unlearn video" you deny that Jesus actually died in the flesh? Repeat - D"Jesus the man died upon the cross Dave said and I quote" Jesus the man died upon the cross – no one killed Christ " so do we have two Jesus forms on Jesus, one died on the cross, but another form did not die? Please explain.Jesus Christ Man is a duality – Body + Spirit / (yester ra)+(yester tov) Jesus Christ = (Jesus /flesh)+(Christ (who is actually God) Spirit) Jesus – the Son of Man – biology/flesh died upon the cross – dead as a doornail Christ – Non-biology Spirit – returned to God from which it came Mat 27:50 And Yeshua cried out again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. Luk 23:46 And Yeshua, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I entrust My spirit.’” When He had said this, He breathed His last. Your Adam Clark - Into thy hands I commend my spirit - Or, I will commit my spirit - I deposit my soul in thy hands. Another proof of the immateriality of the soul, and of its separate existence when the body is dead.
The dead flesh of Jesus was fully in the grave The living spirit of Christ went into hades and preached to those lost at the time of the Flood At resurrection – the body and spirit were reunited – but the body is changed Changed to what exactly - 1 John 3 – it has not been revealed yet 1Jo 2:22 He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Who is this in our reality? Who teaches Gods has no son and there is no God but Allah----------------- R" Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Shall I think upon your postings here? Honest and pureD"Yet you refuse to discuss the baster verses or the Luke Mathew conflict, or the Steven ahl conflict, or the Ezk Numbers conflict – you just pretend thet donlt exist R" I don't see these errors are you claim Because you have never studyied scripture at that depthD"I would never entertain the Roman edit thing at all. R" You first introduced this idea to me? Because you have never studyied scripture or history at depth------------------------ RP" Who says Paul is speaking of Enoch, not written here? DP" Paul is speaking of himself – too bad you cannot read and understand English R" Well if Paul is speaking of himself here, why do you add "is Enoch in heaven?" you are confusing me. D"2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows) R" Paul is speaking of the function of a visionDeny away Robert – is Enoch in heaven – or is his ascension just a vision? You deny that Paul went into heaven – you say it’s only a vision And the reason you say it is because you deny the spirit and spiritual I ask – is Enoch in heaven – or was that story just a vision Is not proof that humans live outside of the body, as you allure to.I ask – is Enoch in heaven – or was that story just a vision-------------------------------- Dave quotes many verses of God the Father " D"Dave is just repeating mainstream Christianity - and the Trinity R" Yes but you have to find me a video that says the trinity are expressions of the Same Being. You have not done that. All trinity believeing Believe in One True God in thee expressions Only you deny the unity of the Trinity Only you have 3 individual gods D"Mainstream Christianity does NOT support Roberts idea that Christ died on the cross and is still in the grave in some way as Ellen White teaches R" I never said that, why do you misquote me Dave, and you have never apologized for doing this?I will spend the time to seek out your quote – not right now – but I will quote you And that will be my appologyOnly took 13 minutesRob" My understanding Ellen White calls the sacrifice of Jesus an infinite sacrifice, and yes, part of Jesus is in the grave forever. The exchange for sin is eternal. Well, did He stay dead for eternity? You are supposed to stay in the grave. � The Serpent Speaks , p. 12.This is also what the SDA say – you only hope is the grave and await Rev 20:5Rob" My understanding Ellen White calls the sacrifice of Jesus an infinite sacrifice, and yes, part of Jesus is in the grave forever. = GRABAGE – what part of God is in the grave? More academic honesty from RobertD"and then went to preach in HADES to those that died at the time of Noah. R" That is your view, not generally found in other churches.Sorry Robert – it is mainstream Christian teaching everywhere(google) What did Jesus do when he descended into hell? The early church believed that after his death Christ descended into hell in order to rescue the souls of the righteous, such as Adam and Eve. Jesus descends and breaks down the doors of hell, unbinds the prisoners and leads the just to heaven (goggle) What did jess do when he descended into Hades After Christ died, he went and preached to people in Hell, offering them a second chance of salvation." "View 3: After Christ died, he went and preached to people in Hell, proclaiming to them that he had triumphed over them and their condemnation was final."
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Post by Dave on Dec 1, 2021 9:44:44 GMT -5
1Pe 3:18 For Messiah once suffered for sins also—the righteous for the unrighteous—in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Ruach. 1Pe 3:19 Through the Ruach He also went and preached to the spirits in prison. 1Pe 3:20 Long ago they disobeyed while God kept waiting patiently, in the days of Noah as the ark was being built.
D"and then went to preach in HADES to those that died at the time of Noah. R" That is your view, not generally found in other churches.
Mat 27:50 And Yeshua cried out again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. Luk 23:46 And Yeshua, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I entrust My spirit.’” When He had said this, He breathed His last.
Your Adam Clark - Into thy hands I commend my spirit - Or, I will commit my spirit - I deposit my soul in thy hands. Another proof of the immateriality of the soul, and of its separate existence when the body is dead
History lesson - This is an academic discussion Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season and a time for every activity under heaven: There is an interesting mathematical rhythm to church history
The Parade of Israel – for 1500 years it was a 5 part parade – Beginning, Atonement, Tabernacles, -- Passover, Pentecost The Ester added Purim (Salvation is by the Lord) right in the middle to make it a 6 part parade Beginning, Atonement, Tabernacles, - PURIM - Passover, Pentecost
½ of the age of the Jews Paraded the Promise - ½ of it includes Salvation by God/Christ ½ of the story happed before Christ (age of the Jew) and ½ after Christ (age of the gentile)
The 500 years before Christ are so interesting 500BC is the origin of several ‘christian’ style religions 1- Nebuchadnezzar -the Babylonian captivity of the Jews 587 - Daniel
2- Mithrasism becomes a Persian religion circa 500BC Mithrasism becomes a Roman religion – imported from Persia 340BC Alexander takes Jerusalem in 332BC
3- 500BC Zoroastrianism is born in Persia Alexander takes Persia in 334 BC
4- 500 BC Socrates dies in open forum – preaching the spirit realm
5- 164 BC The Maccabean rededicated the Temple to God ON THE 25th of KISLEV (December)
After Christ About 500 years Christianity was unorganized as a whole 500BC Rome become the absolute authority by FORCE Crusades begin 1095 and England becomes anglo-saxon-NORMON in 1066 For Islam – this is when the WEST official began and their anti-christ entered the world 500 years later Luther and Calvin both REFORMED Catholicism 500 years after that and we arrive at today
Certain dates and times stand out in history –
The Great Awakening a religious revival that impacted the English colonies in America during the 1730s and 1740s. The movement came at a time when the idea of secular rationalism was being emphasized, and passion for religion had grown stale. ... The result was a renewed dedication toward religion
The 2nd Great Awakening - Evangelicalism, Revivalism – 1800s Joseph Smith begins the Mormon Church – writes The Other Testament of Jesus Christ Charles Russel begins the Jehovah Witness movement – Jesus returned Miller begins the Adventist movement – Ellen White become a prophet – Jesus returned
1844 - But what about the Muslim world? Did they have a witness in the 19th Century? And did the movement actually make a lasting impression on Muslims? The answer is yes. To most people, the Baha’i Faith seems to be a random, independent world religion springing up in the 1840’s. But in fact it is a relic of the Advent Movement in Islam, misguided after the Great Disappointment in 1844. The existence of the Baha’i movement is a testimony to the fact that Muslims on a large scale expected the Second Coming of Christ in the same year as the Christians. It shows a close eschatological connection between the two religions, and adds credibility to the Seventh-Day Adventist claim that God was preparing the whole world for the Second Coming in the early 19th Century.
Does Isalm validate SDA? Or does SDA validate Islam? There has always been a question about the connection between the SDA and the Bahai Faith I didn’t know what it was actually until now – they have the same math
To Newton, the SDA, the Bahai, and any end times date setter No one knows the math – not the angels, not the Son, only the father alone
What is the Reformation 1500 AD Luther and Calvin (google) Calvinism salvation belief is that of predestination (chosen few) whereas Lutheranism believes any one can attain salvation through faith. ... Calvinism stresses the absolute sovereignty of God whereas Lutheranism believes man has some control over certain aspects in his life
Today these two factions are basic Presbyterianism and Lutheran / Baptist
Lutheranism believes man has some control over certain aspects in his life – Free Will Salvation is man’s responsibility – man must exercise his Free Will and want salvation first and then seek it out. And Salvation is open to everyone
In the extreme– God is Good and Loving – in the end even satan will be saved Universalism is the religious doctrine that every created person will sooner or later be reconciled to God, the loving source of all that is, and will in the process be reconciled to all other persons as well.
Presbyterianism – salvation is based on predestination I disagree that all will be saved – the Beast, the devil, stanas, and the false prophets are thrown into the Lake of Fire I agree – some are called against their will – Paul I agree – some are hardened and made stubborn – Jews after Christ – Pharaoh
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless My Father who sent Me draws him—and I will raise him up on the last day.
Eph 1:11 In Him we also were chosen, predestined according to His plan. He keeps working out all things according to the purpose of His will—
Is Predestination compatible with man’s Free Will IT’s NOT – is this a Christian theological contradiction – it split Christianity into the very first two protestant groups.
So what does Calvinist Predestination mean? No one can come to the father – unless he is called by the father AND - we are all called to the father However, God can reach down and use anyone He wants for anything he wants
Paul – hated Christ was killing Christians on Monday – woke up Tuesday and wrote 85% of the agl Was it’s Paul’s Free Will choice - NO Paul was predestined from the beginning to be Paul
Judas – was a disciple on Monday, Tuesday he gave Christ up for $30 Was it’s Judas’s Free Will choice, or did God reach down and use him? Was Judas predestined from the beginning to be Judas?
Was it Jonah’s Free Will Choice to preach to Minava? - NO God reach down and use him?
Was it Balaam’s Free Will Choice to prophesy for God? – NO God reach down and use him?
Does man have total control of his own life – NO Can satan repent and be saved in the end – NO
Why can’t satan repent and be saved? The same reason why ants and bacteria, or cows don’t repent The same reason why the ‘Legion’ did not repent before Jesus Christ Ra is a by-product / inherent to creation – Entropy It / They (yester ra) do not exist in the tov only New Heaven and Earth
Jews say – Adam and Eve stepped down into the Lower World Adam and Eve stepped down from “Paradise” into the Lower World “Paradise” = Enoch heaven #3 Where did Paul go? – heaven #3
Christians say – This 3D world will pass away – next world = New Heaven and Earth – paradise – a return to Eden
Gnostic – we will be raptured from this 3D world - we will be changed – we will be like He is - he is a multi-dimensional being (not of this world anymore) The idea of accretion – moving upwards in energy – entering a higher dimension – returning to heaven
God created the heavens (spiritual) and the earth (3D physicality – that comes with Entropy) and the earth (3D physicality – that comes with Entropy) – will pass away Mankind moves into a higher dimension – paradise - New Heaven and Earth Messianic Jewish combo – we return from whence we came – we are restore to the Perfect race of man – we are regain all that we lost – WE ARE RESTORED
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
D"and then went to preach in HADES to those that died at the time of Noah. R" That is your view, not generally found in other churches.
This came to me via Richard – he belongs to a group called “Friends” – it is 21st Century Quakerism. They are basically just Presbyterian Calvinist – Mainstream Christianity Baylor University = Lutheran – Baptist -
Copyright © 2014 Institute for Faith and Learning at Baylor University “He Descended into Hell”
… what if we interpreted the meaning of Christ’s descent primarily in light of the living Jesus Christ himself? The Apostle’s Creed, after all, is a confession of faith, and the primary object of our faith is the God who has come to us in Jesus Christ. He is not in hell but What if we explained the descent differently? Instead of importing the events of Sunday into Saturday, or Saturday into Friday, or extending Friday into Saturday, what if we interpreted Christ’s descent primarily in light of the living Jesus Christ himself?
He is not in hell but lives and reigns here and now through his Holy Spirit. And one of the ways he does so is through us: “it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me” (Galatians 2:20). When we confess that Christ “descended into hell,” we are not merely making a claim about an event that happened in the past; we are making a claim about the One who lives in and through us in the present. To make this confession is to say that the Christ who dwells in us is the same Christ who did not regard the borders of death and hell as barriers blocking him from saving us. This insight adds a distinct dimension to Christ’s statement that the “gates of Hades shall not prevail” against his Church (Matthew 16:18). In one sense, he means that the Church has nothing to fear from any external enemy, even death and hell. As Paul puts it, “Who will separate us from the love of Christ?” (Romans 8:35). Yet might Christ not also mean that death and hell pose no barrier for the Church? That is, because Christ crossed the borders of death, are we not free to do so as well? Doesn’t Christ’s saving work allow us to follow him wherever he may lead, even if doing so means “becoming like him in his death” (Philippians 3:10)? Is not the Church able to go to any place in this world and face any horror because we know that Christ has been to the “darkest valley” and faced our enemies before us (Psalm 23:4-5)?
Perhaps these ideas can direct us to the work that the confession of Christ’s descent actually does for the Church. Our limited information leaves us speculating about what it truly means to say that Christ “descended into hell.” For everything that we cannot know about the descent, however, we can say this much with confidence: to confess these creedal words is to declare that we can face outward into the world, toward the sometimes brutal and terrifying edges of human life, without fear. To say this phrase is to declare that we the Church—the people who exist in and with Christ—are free to cross any border, confront any evil, and take upon ourselves any suffering as we seek to obey the commission Christ gave us. We can do so with full confidence that Christ himself, “the pioneer and perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2), has gone before us into the depths and goes with us still.
Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. Psalm 139:7-8
In short, to say these words is to declare that we are free—free to love our enemies, to face sin in its stark reality, and to embrace the world without fear of the cost.
Free to face the archon head on, our real struggle, without the fear of death – because death is not the end – life lives
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 13:58:08 GMT -5
D" Then your soul dies and return to the dust and is extinguished for everR" correct, unless GOD raises the soul back to living again. This happens for every human who ever lived, for a second time only. The straight get to keep on living and the crooked are raised to find they miss out on living forever. D" Jesus Christ Man is a duality – Body + Spirit / (yester ra)+(yester tov) Jesus Christ = (Jesus /flesh)+(Christ (who is actually God) Spirit) Jesus – the Son of Man – biology/flesh died upon the cross – dead as a doornail Christ – Non-biology Spirit – returned to God from which it cameR" Our differences are subtle, but you do not explain your lines. Man is a duality -> Body + Holy Spirit who empowers living from the Father into the body. Jesus = Jesus human body (Body + Holy Spirit who empowers living from the Father into the body) + Jesus divine nature, who of itself is immortal and divine. First the biological body Jesus had that was laid into the tomb, didn't decay. So in this sense , the body of Jesus didn't really die. We have to therefore, re-define dying the second death clearly, because the cessation of biochemistry doesn't work, AND because Scripture says Jesus really died as a sin-offering for all sins. Most humans figure dying means the cessation of biochemistry . This is NOT so. Scripture defines death as something else : the permanent separation from GOD. This implies all living comes from God who alone is all living. Thus a separation from God, causes a permanent state of non-existence, ie death. Thus Jesus truly died in this definition, because he was separated from His Father. This makes no sense to you Dave, because you have the Father and the Son as the same being, so they cannot become separated in the meaning of the word. So you define death as the separation of spirit from body. (1) You therefore imply the spirit is immortal and drives the body with it's sense of living. If the spirit is immortal how come God can extinguish the wicked spirit during the second death experience? Therefore the spirit is not immortal. Scripture says only God has immortality. (2) Second you imply the Spirit of Jesus spoke to the dead in the days of Noah. This implies the spirit can talk outside of the body. Why than does the spirit require a body if it can function without a body? You have never answered this question properly to me. (3) Third you say the flesh of Jesus died on the Cross, dead as a door-nail. But this implies the body becomes living when its connected with it's spirit, and thus you give the spirit some from of immortal powers of living, that only belong to God. And if the spirit can impart living to the flesh, than there is no need of God? Scripture does not teach this idea, for Jesus bent down on the ground and breathed into Adam the HS/breath of living, and Adam became a living soul. The word nephesh the noun, implies Adam became living energy. Normally energy is like electricity and without life, but somehow God who is energy can become living and alive, ie a personal form of energy. Therefore nothing natural can become living, unless God empowers living into it. How this is done is a mystery. (4) Fourth you say the spirit of Jesus returned to the Father from which it came. If that is true, than Jesus is the Father, and not His Son, and you have denied the Father and a Son, as Scripture teaches. You also have removed an important aspect of love, to give. The Father gave himself. That is not love, as deeply as a Father giving up his only and only Son, upon which the allegory of Abraham and Issac was founded and storied as a lesson for us. In fact if you have ONE divine Being, love is no longer supreme, for many elements of love are removed, such as collective love, parental love, and love that responds to its provider. You also remove the concept of faith, meaning supporting, one cannot support himself, alone. Support, love and faith are all relational terms. Community terms. Now I would appreciate you write an answer with your discussion, explain yourself and the differences in our views clearly, so I see you understand me and I understand you. I don't mind you having a different view to my own, but I do care if I don't understand you. So far your views are illogical and do not follow Scripture as I see the Sacred Writings given to us by God and copied exactly by the Jews, not some Roman Edit. D" The dead flesh of Jesus was fully in the grave R" Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. The body of Jesus never really died, because the body never corrupted. Therefore you cannot say the dead flesh of Jesus was fully in the grave. Yet we know Jesus died. So our Bible definition of death is wrong. You have never considered this idea. D" The living spirit of Christ went into hades and preached to those lost at the time of the FloodR" you base this on an idiom. mentioned this to you before. Our sinful fallen bodies trap our souls in prison is spoken many times in Scripture, but you ignore the line upon line principle when it suits your theories. D" At resurrection – the body and spirit were reunited – but the body is changed Changed to what exactly - 1 John 3 – it has not been revealed yetR" Than why separate the spirit the body at death to await proportional punishment? Why not wait until the spirit re-unites with the body again, as you pose? This is what Scripture clearly teaches. Enoch is in heaven with his body and spirit together, also Moses was raised with spirit in his body, Also Elijah went to heaven in his body and his spirit. You pose no evidence for your theory, except Paul speaking of a vision he had and Paul wasn't sure if he went to heaven in fully body form or just spirit form (whatever that means). Mrs White also has a similar experience, but you ignore this idea. D" Who teaches Gods has no son and there is no God but AllahR" Yes, but you also have a Father with no Son, only a "Father expression as a Son". You do not have a literal divine Son and a literal divine Father. You see this as two gods. So you reject this idea, and reject love as well. Perhaps you should re-define what a god is,, according to the Scriptures? D" Because you have never studied scripture at that depthR" If you love God, why go mocking His messages? If the writings are God breathed, than surely they are pure and true, not written in error? God would not allow the primary source of His Hebrew words go edited before humans have a chance to read them, That would God weak, unable to preserve His words among sinful men. D" I ask – is Enoch in heaven – or was that story just a visionR" Oh I see. You think since Enoch is in heaven , both his body and spirit is in heaven. Paul is saying he went to heaven, in spirit or in both, he wasn't sure. What you are arguing is that Paul's spirit went to heaven, when Paul said he didn't know. D" All trinity believeing Believe in One True God in thee expressionsR" carm.org/doctrine-and-theology/what-is-the-trinity/Weird read www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/the-trinity/At Mass, the priest’s prayers frequently mention the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as well. The reason for this is that Catholics believe that God is not merely Unity (as all monotheists believe), but also Trinity. But what does this mean?
What we mean when we say that God is a Trinity is that there is one divine nature, one divine substance. A “substance” or “nature” is what something is. God, as a Trinity, exists in three Persons. A person is “who” someone is. In our experience, one human person each possesses one human nature. A husband and wife, no matter how closely united, are still two separate beings. In God, however, three Persons possess the same divine nature. If you were to ask each Person in the Trinity, “Who are you?” each person would answer something differently: “I am the Father;” “I am the Son;” “I am the Holy Spirit.” If you were to ask each Person, “Who are you?” you would get the same answer from each Person: “I am God.” Not, “I am a God,” as a human would say, “I am a human.” Rather, each divine Person, while not identical to the other divine Persons, is one in being with the other two divine Persons and is fully God. The word we use to describe this in the Nicene Creed is consubstantial. While we say in the Nicene Creed that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, it is also true that the Spirit is consubstantial with the Father and the Son.Interesting definition by Catholics. I would add more to this. Elohiym is a family power. Ephesians 3:10 to 16 According to Scripture the husband and the wife are indeed cardinally one. Scripture says so. However since sinning this ideal principle never reaches it's ideal nature like is does with GOD. This does not mean GOD is like humans, as GOD is not comprised of matter, however the personalities of love and loving are the same . --------------------------- D" It shows a close eschatological connection between the two religions, and adds credibility to the Seventh-Day Adventist claim that God was preparing the whole world for the Second Coming in the early 19th Century. R" ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) D" No one knows the math – not the angels, not the Son, only the father aloneR" ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) D" Universalism is the religious doctrine that every created person will sooner or later be reconciled to God, the loving source of all that is, and will in the process be reconciled to all other persons as well.R" I hope you do not believe this idea? D" I disagree that all will be savedR" ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) D"Do es man have total control of his own life – NO Can satan repent and be saved in the end – NOR" Hmm? D" The same reason why ants and bacteria, or cows don’t repent The same reason why the ‘Legion’ did not repent before Jesus Christ Ra is a by-product / inherent to creation – EntropyR" You make a higher intelligence flaw in your thinking, The only higher intelligence mentioned in heaven apart from humans are cherub (a verse you ignore) that also sinned ( a concept you don't like). Higher forms of intelligence are required to reason with their free will, subject to judgment, ants and cows are not. The unpardonable sin condition we call pride, prevents many from repenting, including cherubims that sinned. D" Adam and Eve stepped down into the Lower World Adam and Eve stepped down from “Paradise” into the Lower World “Paradise” = Enoch heaven #3R" Proof please, from Scripture that Adam once lived in heaven and was raised to walk on earth? You entirely misquote Scripture. D" we will be raptured from this 3D world - we will be changed – we will be like He is - he is a multi-dimensional being (not of this world anymore)R" This is incorrect. The Scripture do not talk about a brand new earth, but a renewed earth. Look at the meaning of chadesh, the Hebrew scriptures. Re 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. The traces of the older earth haven fallen under the curse of sin, is removed. Not the entire earth. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. If your theory were true, upon baptism we would become brand new humans of spirit, but this is NOT the case. kainos = chadesh, does not mean brand new, but renewed, like the new mooon, is renewed each month (Jeff Benner) D" God created the heavens (spiritual) and the earth (3D physicality – that comes with Entropy) and the earth (3D physicality – that comes with Entropy) – will pass awayR" The earth with entropy came from God's curse, when Adam sinned. Another verse you ignore. D" Mankind moves into a higher dimension – paradise - New Heaven and EarthR" Not higher, no. Simply restored to what Adam originally had, utopia and paradise, not a trace of ra anywhere. D" we are restore to the Perfect race of man – we are regain all that we lost – WE ARE RESTOREDR" ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) yes correct. D" In short, to say these words is to declare that we are free ...because death is not the end – life livesR" I would suggest you understand what death is, and where this concept truly comes from? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 2, 2021 20:31:53 GMT -5
D you are saying that Christ, who is the HS, which is the Spirit of God, which is just God at distance died upon the cross – you preach that your satan killed God – and your proud of it D"Then your soul dies and return to the dust and is extinguished for ever R" correct, unless GOD raises the soul back to living again. This happens for every human who ever lived, Correct – you think Jesus was just a man – not divine
D"Jesus Christ Man is a duality – Body + Spirit / (yester ra)+(yester tov) R" Our differences are subtle, but you do not explain your lines. Man is a duality -> Body + Holy Spirit who empowers living from the Father into the body. Trinity – HS=God=Christ
You claim that every man is Jesus Christ, every man is the HS, that every man is God Pantheism teaches that everything that exists is part of one single reality and that reality is called god. God is all and all is god. There is no distinction between the creature and the creator in pantheism.
R" Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. The body of Jesus never really died, Did Jesus die on the cross for our sins – or didn’t He Please make up your mind – double speaker, flip flopper Oh you say only God (spirit) died on the cross - the biology didn't Don’t you see the contradiction within your own teaching – or is doubt your goal?
I define Mortal death as the death of biology Death of the spirit happens at the Second death – Lake of Fire
(1) You therefore imply the spirit is immortal and drives the body with it's sense of living. If the spirit is immortal how come God can extinguish the wicked spirit during the second death experience? Therefore the spirit is not immortal.
Robert’s word game- some thimgs never change Mortal = biology – will have a mortal death – a mortal wound is one that causes the biology to die Immortal – not of biology = therefore will never have a mortal death God will never have a mortal death =- immortal Angels will never have a mortal death = immortal Spirit is not biology – spirit is immortal
(2) Second you imply the Spirit of Jesus spoke to the dead in the days of Noah. This implies the spirit can talk outside of the body. Why than does the spirit require a body if it can function without a body? You have never answered this question properly to me.
D" The living spirit of Christ went into hades and preached to those lost at the time of the Flood R" you base this on an idiom. Nope – based on the words of Gnostic Christian Peter
Why do you deny scripture? 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: Biology dead as a door nail – Spirit lives – is alive – and busy 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(3) Third you say the flesh of Jesus died on the Cross, dead as a door-nail. But this implies the body becomes living when its connected with it's spirit, and thus you give the spirit some from of immortal powers of living, that only belong to God. And if the spirit can impart living to the flesh, than there is no need of God? Life lives – you just deny the spirit
(4) Fourth you say the spirit of Jesus returned to the Father from which it came. Why do you deny scripture
If that is true, than Jesus is the Father, and not His Son, and you have denied the Father and a Son I am sorry Robert if your mind it too small to understand spiritual things Question – give your list of things that are impossible for your God of biology
100 Bible Verses about Nothing Is Impossible - OpenBible.infohttps://www.openbible.info › topics › nothing_is_impos... 'Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.
Evidently Robert disagrees with scripture and mainstream Christianity I wonder if the Jews thought things were too hard for YHWY to do Most Jews or Christians would find it hard to believe in a God that has limitations
In fact if you have ONE divine Being, love is no longer supreme, for many elements of love are removed, All love is unrequited God loves us even if we do not love him back
D"Who teaches Gods has no son and there is no God but Allah R" Yes, but you also have a Father with no Son, only a "Father expression as a Son". You – deny the Trinity therefore you have no idea what I believe Twist away – so you can try to score a point – it is your modus aparaendi
D"Universalism is the religious doctrine that every created person will sooner or later be reconciled to God, the loving source of all that is, and will in the process be reconciled to all other persons as well. R" I hope you do not believe this idea? Ha ha ha giggle giggele – it is a Lutheran / Baptist / SDA / Universalism teaching
It is not Presbyterian / Calvin / mainstream Christianity D"I disagree that all will be saved
D"Adam and Eve stepped down into the Lower World Adam and Eve stepped down from “Paradise” into the Lower World “Paradise” = Enoch heaven #3 R" Proof please, from Scripture that Adam once lived in heaven and was raised to walk on earth? You entirely misquote Scripture. Twist away – misrepresent – pretend you don’t understand Jewish theology says – Adam and Eve stepped down from paradise / Eden So you disagree that Adam and Eve were ejected from Eden into a Fallen Worlrd
D"God created the heavens (spiritual) and the earth (3D physicality – that comes with Entropy) and the earth (3D physicality – that comes with Entropy) – will pass away R" The earth with entropy came from God's curse, when Adam sinned. Another verse you ignore. Why do you deny scripture Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
D"In short, to say these words is to declare that we are free ...because death is not the end – life lives R" I would suggest you understand what death is, and where this concept truly comes from?
Why do you deny scripture – you say the body is the soul Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Why do you deny scripture – to fear mortal death is bondage/slavery Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Why do you deny scripture you say all must perish – even Christ Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Even the Jews teach from the ahl – life lives – spirit lives
Mainstream Judaism or Christian stress there is Only One True God Robert argues againt the concept of the Trinity – he has multiple gods – and his base theology = Hebrew satan is another god - the god of evil – who killed God on the cross – and in some way Christ is still in the grave awaiting resurrection – but his biological body rose from the dead on the 3rd day.
Mainstream Christianity teaches – once saved always saved Robert argues that you must practice religion daily to maintain your salvation
Mainstream Judaism and Christianity teach the salvation of the soul and a spiritual reality Robert denies the spirit in every shape or form
The question is - why are his views so anti-mainstream CHRISTian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2021 17:07:58 GMT -5
D" you think Jesus was just a man – not divine R" Absolutely NOT.
Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD (YHWH-FATHER) possessed me (YHWH-YASHUAH) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Jesus has existed as a SON of the Father since eternity, Some SDA mock and say Jesus must have had some going forth to be a Son of the Father But Mrs White never says this, they have existed together from eternity, both have divinity. Always existed as three members of the Godhead. Neither are they role playing as some SDA mock this verse.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Jesus is fully divine, fully elohiym, added humanity to His divinity. So Dave, what you wrote of me is wrong.
D"You claim that every man is Jesus Christ, every man is the HS, that every man is God Pantheism teaches that everything that exists is part of one single reality and that reality is called god. God is all and all is god. There is no distinction between the creature and the creator in pantheism R" NO Dave I do not support this idea. What you are saying since the electric body requires electrical power, than the energy that powers the body, means the body is the same as the Creator who powers the Creature? You term this pantheism? So since all matter is empowered by quantum energy, than all matter is quantum energy. Since GOD is light, and thus quantum energy, than all matter is essentially GOD as well? You term this pantheism? Since GOD invented language, than every word that creatures speak is the same words the Creator speaks. You term this pantheism? Since GOD created the human body to be living, using power via the MEDIUM, than all the body as a creature does and functions under free will, is totally subject to the will of the Creator? Than it's no longer free is it? True the Creator might know all things, but surely the Creature can do as it wants to do under free will.
Just because the MEDIUM (administrated by the HS) enables matter to be living, does not make creatures who are living essentially robotic clones of the Creator? You claim GOD created spirits for each human, how is this no different to my theory? Is not the spirit within each man, a gift from God to man? therefore you have a little of God within you, even so God can take that spirit back if God wishes at the second death.
Essentially you mock the same logic in my theory is the same logic in your theory? My point is all things have to be administrated by GOD, otherwise nothing would exist. Maths exists, does this mean every number has God personally in it? Energy exist, does this mean all energy directly come from God?
You raise such difficult questions, that you promote confusion. --------------------------
R" Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. The body of Jesus never really died, D" Did Jesus die on the cross for our sins – or didn’t He Please make up your mind – double speaker, flip flopper Oh you say only God (spirit) died on the cross - the biology didn't Don’t you see the contradiction within your own teaching – or is doubt your goal?
I define Mortal death as the death of biology Death of the spirit happens at the Second death – Lake of Fire R" Misquote me? Dave defines the first death as the death of biology and the second death as the death of the spirit. How come Dave when you die the first death, the nails keep growing for months? Therefore the biology of many cells do not die, when the nephesh dies? So your definition is wrong,
I showed you another definition, but you ignore my statements.
"neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." it is clear the body of Jesus never decayed when the nephesh of Jesus died, so your definitions about death are wrong. -------------------------
(2) Second you imply the Spirit of Jesus spoke to the dead in the days of Noah. This implies the spirit can talk outside of the body. Why than does the spirit require a body if it can function without a body? You have never answered this question properly to me. R" still awaiting an answer to this question Dave?
D" Biology dead as a door nail – Spirit lives – is alive – and busy R" so if the spirit can be busy outside of the body, why does the spirit need the body, to talk for example?
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(3) Third you say the flesh of Jesus died on the Cross, dead as a door-nail. But this implies the body becomes living when its connected with it's spirit, and thus you give the spirit some from of immortal powers of living, that only belong to God. And if the spirit can impart living to the flesh, than there is no need of God? D" Life lives – you just deny the spirit R" You did not answer my questions? Are they too hard for you? ------------------------------------
(4) RP" Fourth you say " the spirit of Jesus returned to the Father from which it came. Why do you deny scripture? " end of Dave's statement
RP" If that is true, than Jesus is the Father, and not His Son, and you have denied the Father and a Son D" I am sorry Robert if your mind it too small to understand spiritual things R" Again you do not answer my question, if the Father expression returns his Father spirit to the Father, than we do not have a Father and a SON, we have a Father expression spirit returning to the Father of spirits.
D"Ha ha ha giggle giggele – it is a Lutheran / Baptist / SDA / Universalism teaching R" I made you laugh, how entertaining I am. SDA do not teach Universalism, some off shoots do.
D"So you disagree that Adam and Eve were ejected from Eden into a Fallen World R" I agree that Adam was in paradise and stepped down into a lower world, only after He sinned.
D"Adam and Eve stepped down from “Paradise” into the Lower World -“Paradise” = Enoch heaven #3 R" Your words Dave imply paradise is in heaven, and Adam stepped down to come to earth.
Not wonder you twist words. To me, Adam was created on earth already in paradise on earth, and stepped down into a fallen earth after He Sinned. The entropy of earth came after God cursed the ground after Adam sinned.
You imply Adam was in heaven and stepped down to earth. I asked you for proof of this idea?
D"Why do you deny scripture – you say the body is the soul Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. R" The body is NOT totally the soul. Scripture says breath of life (nashamah / ruwach) + body -> becomes a soul.
There are four Hebrew words here, nashamah, ruwach, basar and nehpesh.
Nashamah is breathing from the basar. Ruwach is divine presence of God administrating your living ability Nephesh is the overall relationship of GOD with matter, so you are living. God gives you the ability to make free will choices, and thus you can be you, independently of God influencing you.
First death : many of the basar cells die, and the nashamah stops. Not all biology ends. The nephesh relationship is partly severed, and so that very day your thoughts perish Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
SO how do you have a Jesus spirit talking to the dead in Hades in Noahs time? if the thoughts perish?
You deny Scripture.
Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
How does Jesus have power over his spirit on the day of his death, when Scripture says nobody has power of the spirit upon the day of his death?
You deny Scripture.
Second death . What is the second death?
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, (third coming of Jesus to earth)
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth (third coming of Jesus to earth, all humans are raised and stand under this great kind)
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague (Jeff Benner / a striking) wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth
The wicked are destroyed with the atoms falling from their faces, they cease to exist. What would cause this dissolution of matter? The separation of GOD from the living, and even the non-living. Under this definition, did Jesus experience a separation of the Father and the HS? Yes
But his body did not decay. Why is that? Because Jesus is fully divine.
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D"Even the Jews teach from the ahl – life lives – spirit lives R" What Hebrew word is this Dave? Ruwach. Of course the ruwach lives. Who said the ruwach is the nephesh? Jews mix terms, they play word games.
D"Robert argues againt the concept of the Trinity – he has multiple gods – R" I showed you a Catholic reading, they do not say trinity is multiple gods - why do you mock the Catholic Trinity I showed you?
I quote "
What we mean when we say that God is a Trinity is that there is one divine nature, one divine substance. A “substance” or “nature” is what something is. God, as a Trinity, exists in three Persons. A person is “who” someone is. In our experience, one human person each possesses one human nature. A husband and wife, no matter how closely united, are still two separate beings. In God, however, three Persons possess the same divine nature. If you were to ask each Person in the Trinity, “Who are you?” each person would answer something differently: “I am the Father;” “I am the Son;” “I am the Holy Spirit.” If you were to ask each Person, “Who are you?” you would get the same answer from each Person: “I am God.” Not, “I am a God,” as a human would say, “I am a human.” Rather, each divine Person, while not identical to the other divine Persons, is one in being with the other two divine Persons and is fully God. endquote"
This is nicely written but you argue not a single word against the Catholics who define their own doctrine.
Trinity is not found in Hebrew, but family is. Eph 3:10 - 16 But not a single comment from you.
Which of the words of this quote do you mock Dave? You do not support trinity at all.
Your view is you have "Rather, each divine expression, is exactly from the ONE Being, the expressions of this ONE Being differ as persons, some express masculine love on earth (the Son) and some express feminine love on earth (the HS), but these expressions originate from the ONE being of the Father."
The Catholic trinity definition is not like this view of yours.
Your views are anti mainstream Christianity. You have added to mainstream Christianity secret additional knowledge, called Gnostic scrolls.
Which Paul writing to Timothy warns
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of GNOSIS falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 3, 2021 21:51:16 GMT -5
D" you think Jesus was just a man – not divine R" Absolutely NOT. Then why do you keep saying he was killed by your satan You say man Jesus has no spirit – and Jesus died on the cross You argued that the soul died – spirit died – you used all those terms You say Jesus was only body and body died on the cross Then you say his body didn’t really die So I ask again – did he die for our sins or not?
Jesus has existed as a SON of the Father since eternity, Now you are saying Jesus existed before he was conceived – this is my teaching Have you changed your mind?
D"You claim that every man is Jesus Christ, every man is the HS, that every man is God R" NO Dave I do not support this idea. Yet – you say man has no spirit of his own – all of us only have the HS You are double speaking so loud it crazy
You claim GOD created spirits for each human, how is this no different to my theory? Is not the spirit within each man, a gift from God to man? therefore you have a little of God within you, Absolutely NOT - Animism – is the teaching that God spread himself out into all the animals and man – we are all god Dianetics is a set of ideas and practices regarding the metaphysical relationship between the mind and body created by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard ... – and teaches that we are all just fractions of god – all together we are the Creator Today it is called Scientology
Each and every creature is a unique and independent individual Each and every angel is different and unique from each other Each and every cow is different and unique from each other Each and every man is different and u8nique from each other
My point is all things have to be administrated by GOD, otherwise nothing would exist. Agree at the sub-atomic level – the Spirit of God – the HS – is the medium that sustains the ALL – agreed It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious
You raise such difficult questions, that you promote confusion. You spend all your energy in denying everything that it is all you can see You only confuse yourself – because you will not look at reality honestly or scripture
-------------------------- D" Biology dead as a door nail – Spirit lives – is alive – and busy R" so if the spirit can be busy outside of the body, why does the spirit need the body, to talk for example? Does it – How does the HS talk to you – is it biology? How does God talk to you – is He biology? ----------------------------------
And if the spirit can impart living to the flesh, than there is no need of God? D" Life lives – you just deny the spirit R" You did not answer my questions? Are they too hard for you? No your question are redundant and of track
Gen 1 God created man – that creature lived – just as all the animals live Gen 2:7 man’s spirit is mated to his animal body and the lineage of Adam is created 100% Biology + 100% Spirit (soul) ------------------------------------
(4) RP" Fourth you say " the spirit of Jesus returned to the Father from which it came. Why do you deny scripture? " end of Dave's statement RP" If that is true, than Jesus is the Father, and not His Son, and you have denied the Father and a Son R" Again you do not answer my question, if the Father expression returns his Father spirit to the Father, than we do not have a Father and a SON, we have a Father expression spirit returning to the Father of spirits. I am sorry Robert if you are too small minded to grasp the concept of the Trinity – you just keep talking in circle to hear yourself roar God is always on his throne 24/7 never leaves The Spirit of God – is God at a distance – the essence of God – the invisible glory that mingles among the people shekinah God in 3D image = Christ God = Christ = HS = Trinity The is only one E – but you can experience that E as (m) or (c2) E=mc2 No matter how you look at it you cannot separate one from the other – because they are all God Man can experience God as Spirit = HS Man can experience God in 3D form = Christ But no man can ever experience E directly or he will surely die
D"Ha ha ha giggle giggele – it is a Lutheran / Baptist / SDA / Universalism teaching R" I made you laugh, how entertaining I am. SDA do not teach Universalism, some off shoots do. Did I say you did – all I said was it represents the extreme view of Lutheranism D"So you disagree that Adam and Eve were ejected from Eden into a Fallen World R" I agree that Adam was in paradise and stepped down into a lower world, only after He sinned. D"Adam and Eve stepped down from “Paradise” into the Lower World -“Paradise” = Enoch heaven #3 R" Your words Dave imply paradise is in heaven, and Adam stepped down to come to earth. You imply Adam was in heaven and stepped down to earth. I asked you for proof of this idea? Hey Mr academic Honesty person you - I repeat is as the Jewish metaphysical view We have been over this many times You said you even watch Rabbi Freidman’s presentation Do you have a learning disability? Or do you deliberately pretend your ignorant?
D"Why do you deny scripture – you say the body is the soul R" The body is NOT totally the soul. Scripture says breath of life (nashamah / ruwach) + body -> becomes a soul. You are just trying you best to deny that there is a spirit within man
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;
Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And why the Catholics say you soul is held with you by a silver cord
You deny Scripture. Ec 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: Scripture is exactly correct – no man can force his spirit into heaven – or save his spirit from hell
How does Jesus have power over his spirit on the day of his death, when Scripture says nobody has power of the spirit upon the day of his death? All Jesus did was release His Spirit into God’s hands All that happened is that the Spirit of Christ left the flesh and returned to heaven as we all will ----------------------
D"Even the Jews teach from the ahl – life lives – spirit lives R" What Hebrew word is this Dave? Ruwach. Of course the ruwach lives. Who said the ruwach is the nephesh? Jews mix terms, they play word games. You just spend all your emery arguing that soul does not mean spirit You also leave out all the verse that speak about the spirt of man
D"Robert argues againt the concept of the Trinity – he has multiple gods – R" I showed you a Catholic reading, they do not say trinity is multiple gods - why do you mock the Catholic Trinity I showed you? OH – so you have given up on your pantheon of 3 independent gods so love can exist between them Now you embrace Father – Son – and Holy Ghost You Catholicism is showing through – why do you deny your full support for Catholic doctrine
Which Paul writing to Timothy warns That is Gnostic Paul according to you
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2021 14:51:51 GMT -5
D" this is my teaching - Have you changed your mind?R" no. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1327.htmRead this study (before I met you) not biased towards you in any way. Why Jesus died. QUote me some words from my study so I know you understand, Write me questions, rather than mock. Its one webpage, not a long study... RP" My point is all things have to be administrated by GOD, otherwise nothing would exist.D" Agree at the sub-atomic level – the Spirit of God – the HS – is the medium that sustains the ALL – agreed It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your consciousR" wow we agree. So why do you hijack the ruwach as some power you own? --------------- DP" Biology dead as a door nail – Spirit lives – is alive – and busyRP" so if the spirit can be busy outside of the body, why does the spirit need the body, to talk for example?D" Does it – How does the HS talk to you – is it biology? How does God talk to you – is He biology?R" wow, are you confusing me? You say a divine spark of you, YOUR spirit lives on after you die, and talks even... NOW you say the divine spark is the HS that lives on and talks FOR you.... Agreed You are agreeing with my view? Which view are you promoting Dave? D" Gen 2:7 man’s spirit is mated to his animal body R"Now you say man's spirit is mated to it's body, scripture says man become a living soul when God breathed the breath of life in the dust, not mated anything. So if man's spirit can talk without the body, why does man's spirit require a body to be mated unto? D" No matter how you look at it you cannot separate one from the other – R" Why than does the Bible choose to speak of Father and Son, if it's not a real father and a real son? Do you have a Hebrew word to describe elohiym, that humans understand? I have mine, from Scripture, Ephesians 3:10 to 16, it's called family. D" Did I say you did? (make you laugh)?R" Well you wrote emotions of laughing, "Ha ha ha giggle" so the words you write do not mean anything? D" You said you even watch Rabbi Freidman’s presentationR" You think listening to error over and over again makes it ring as truth. I asked you for proof because you keep repeating errors all the time. D" You are just trying you best to deny that there is a spirit within man Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;R" Been through our discussion of this... you ignore scripture words This would have been translated as Rom 8:16 The Ruwach doth testify with our Nashamah , that we are children of God Both Ruwach and Nashamah are written together in the term breath of life. Ruwach is the Spirit of GOD, Nashamah is the spirit of Man. I do not deny a spirit in man, Dave. I have the Nashamah in man. It is our character that is developed within the soul. D" All Jesus did was release His Spirit into God’s hands All that happened is that the Spirit of Christ left the flesh and returned to heaven as we all willR" ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) correct Than explain how the Spirit of Jesus talked to people in Hades, if the Spirit of Jesus returned to His Father? Can't be in both places, and the spirit can't talk outside of it's body. D" You just spend all your emery arguing that soul does not mean spiritR" Of course ruwach does not mean nephesh. If words have meanings like that, nobody could read anything. D" OH – so you have given up on your pantheon of 3 independent gods so love can exist between themR" Can't you read ? I quote " What we mean when we say that God is a Trinity is that there is one divine nature, one divine substance. A “substance” or “nature” is what something is. God, as a Trinity, exists in three Persons. A person is “who” someone is. In our experience, one human person each possesses one human nature. A husband and wife, no matter how closely united, are still two separate beings. In God, however, three Persons possess the same divine nature. If you were to ask each Person in the Trinity, “Who are you?” each person would answer something differently: “I am the Father;” “I am the Son;” “I am the Holy Spirit.” If you were to ask each Person, “Who are you?” you would get the same answer from each Person: “I am God.” Not, “I am a God,” as a human would say, “I am a human.” Rather, each divine Person, while not identical to the other divine Persons, is one in being with the other two divine Persons and is fully God. endquote" I agree is a hard read, but where exactly in this quote is it saying there is one divine nature expressed as three different, while not identical to the other divine persons, is one in being with the other two divine person, and is fully God. I will try a different website: I google ( three expressions in the trinity) Brian S. Holmes , Pastor, Teacher, Owner of MPoweredChristian.org Answered 2 years ago · Author has 3.3K answers and 2.6M answer views The true God has not revealed Himself to us as a thousandity, but as a Holy Trinity.
While God could be more than three persons, if He so willed to be, this is not what is True, what He has revealed to us, or what would be beneficial to us.
Nor would it glorify Him more to do so.
His most intimate revelation of Himself is this triunity because it maximizes His glory, maximizes the mysterious inner workings of His purposes of the creation and plan of redemption, and also maximizes the ways in which we can best know Him and experience Him.
This is because His triune nature is all that is necessary for us to have complete knowledge of who He is, relate to and experience Him, and then glorify Him, and celebrate His glory, in relationship with Him, for eternity. He has revealed Himself as God Almighty, Yahweh, Jehovah, God Most High, etc. But the Holy Trinity allows us to experience Him more intimately. God the Father who created us, purposed us, calls us, adopts us, fathers us, and loves us. God the Son who we were created through, who became a man, died for our sins, saves us, unites us to God, redeems us, shepherds us, leads us, advocates for us. God the Spirit whose spirit powered our creation, who assisted in our calling, who draws us, stirs us, regenerates us, counsels us, heals us, empowers us. They are all the One God, coequal, coeternal. Each “person” with a unique role, called persons only because they relate to each other in personal ways, but all in absolute perfect agreement, eternally. To add any more personhoods would serve only to distract from the focus of worshipping God alone. Wow, I found a website that supports Dave view of trinity bustedhalo.com/ministry-resources/what-is-the-trinityCatholics do not believe in three Gods but rather one God in a unity of three persons with one divine nature. Sound confusing? One analogy that could be helpful is to think of the different states of matter: solid, liquid, and gas. Ice can become water and water can become steam. All of these are the same essence and contain equal amounts of hydrogen and oxygen but they appear in different forms.
Rob" Hmm? One analogy that is helpful is love in Hebrew exists as two words, abah and ahabuh. Thus there are three common forms of love in Scripture, Provider love, Responder love and child like or collective love. All of these are the same essence of LOVE, contain the same properties of love, but they function as these unique personalities of loving. Thus Love is expressed in three unique personalities of loving, like the simile family, but one spring of love, one flow of love. Website " While the Son and the Holy Spirit are not “lesser gods” they do proceed from the Father as God’s own self-gift to humanity.
Rob" Confusing? Father as God;s own self gift? "proceed" , is this Daves idea, the father can express the father as a masculine Son expression and a feminine HS expression? Website " The second person of the Trinity is the Son — Jesus himself, God become man. Rob" Confusing? Website " The third person of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
Rob" Confusing? proceed from both the Father and SOn? Website " Still confused? Let’s try thinking of these things in yet another way. Instead of “persons” let’s substitute the word “expressions” of God.R" Is this Dave's idea? Website " 1 God is “beyond us.” 2 God is also “among us.” 3 God is also “within us.”R" Not really the same as Dave's idea, but close? Do you have a website Dave that explains your three expression ideas Dave would approve of, because I can't find anything remotely like your view. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 4, 2021 19:32:52 GMT -5
RP" My point is all things have to be administrated by GOD, otherwise nothing would exist. D" Agree at the sub-atomic level – the Spirit of God – the HS – is the medium that sustains the ALL – agreed It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious R" wow we agree. So why do you hijack the ruwach as some power you own? It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious
Man is spirit – we pre-exited before our body was conceived – and our spirit return to the heaven when our body dies Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Jesus has existed as a SON of the Father since eternity, D"this is my teaching - Have you changed your mind? R" no. Read this study (before I met you) not biased towards you in any way.
Christ was the angel appointed of God to go before Moses in the wilderness, You think any Christian any where wil belive this?
Thus the ancient Mesopotamian code of Hammurabi could never be changed or altered, is a reflection of GOD's laws that cannot be changed, or altered either. Such laws of GOD are written in stone so to speak, as permanent codes of love. You use a source other than Rome You use a source from the Levant According to you – this is a lie and must be doubted – why do you post this pagan
Scripture talks about a special word "yada" which is often translated as "know" but also means to be "intimate". You cannot have a relationship with Jesus, unless you "know" Him, and this implies "knowledge" but the "knowledge" is not "knowing about" Jesus, but "intimately supporting Jesus with His words" Gnosis = interment personal relationship – you say this is a Gnostic lie – impossible You mock the possibility Or you think a personal relationship with God is reading books and saying prayers ---------------
RP" so if the spirit can be busy outside of the body, why does the spirit need the body, to talk for example? NOW you say the divine spark is the HS that lives on and talks FOR you.... Agreed NO – way to attempt to twist Mr Honest Man is an independent spirit unique individual independent – himself So if man's spirit can talk without the body, why does man's spirit require a body to be mated unto? To perform our function – or commission – or job – our assignment You do not have a meaning for life – you think you are here for your own sake – its all for you It is all for Him and we have an assignment to perform here
D" No matter how you look at it you cannot separate one from the other – R" Why than does the Bible choose to speak of Father and Son, if it's not a real father and a real son? God in heaven on the throne – and God’s spirit in the form of a man on the ground
D"You said you even watch Rabbi Freidman’s presentation R" You think listening to error over and over again makes it ring as truth. And the question become why does your theology replace Judaism – why Christ said Himself he didn’t not come to change a thing
I asked you for proof because you keep repeating errors all the time. YES – Rembert if you study Hebrew you are studying Judaism not Roman Christendom Why have you been trained to hate the Jews and all their theology if their theology gave us Christ?
Judaism is the source of Jesus Christ and all the disciples I’ll stick with this team – instead of Roman doctrine
Than explain how the Spirit of Jesus talked to people in Hades, if the Spirit of Jesus returned to His Father? Can't be in both places, and the spirit can't talk outside of it's body. God cannot be in two places at the same time – do you even hear your own words
I google (three expressions in the trinity) I will try a different website: Wow, I found a website that supports Dave view of trinity
I will try a different website: Catholics do not believe in three Gods but rather one God in a unity of three persons with one divine nature. Rob" Sound confusing? – No just TRINITY
I will try a different website: Rob" Confusing? Father as God;s own self gift? "proceed" , is this Daves idea, the father can express the father as a masculine Son expression and a feminine HS expression? Website " The second person of the Trinity is the Son — Jesus himself, God become man. Rob" Confusing? – No just TRINITY
" The third person of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from both the Father and the Son. Rob" Confusing? proceed from both the Father and SOn? – No just TRINITY
R" Is this Dave's idea? R" Not really the same as Dave's idea, but close? Exactly Dave’s idea – TRINITY 1 God is “beyond us.” – YES – uncomprehend able – no man can see or die 2 God is also “among us.” – YES the Spirit of God = HS 3 God is also “within us.” – YES God in the image of a man = Christ
Do you have a website Dave that explains your three expression ideas Dave would approve of, because I can't find anything remotely like your view. Everything you posted is mainstream Christianity and is very much Dave’s view The Trinity – there is only one God period – but he is beyond us However – we can interact with his Spirit – His presence And we have seen his image – hanging on the Cross
God Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and he hung Himself on the cross to forgive us anyway – because LOVE IS UNREQUITED!
If this revelation does not move you to tears or to your knees than you do not appreciate the magnitude of the gift
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