Alien Origins of Gnosticism: The Dead Sea Scrolls

[Deleted]

D" It (ruwach) has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious

Man is spirit – we pre-exited before our body was conceived – and our spirit return to the heaven when our body dies
R" Provide discussions and proof from Scripture to back up your  claims here Dave.

Scripture says only elohiym is spirit, not man

D"It (ruwach) has absolutely nothing to do with your soul
R" weird.

YHWH-Jesus breathed (nashamah) into the dust of Adam the breath of life (nashamah and ruwach) and Adam became a a living soul (nephesh).

You deny the word ruwach in this verse?

RP"Christ was the angel appointed of God to go before Moses in the wilderness,
D" You think any Christian any where wil belive this?
R" Well that is what Scripture teaches and the SDA support.

D"Gnosis = interment personal relationship – you say this is a Gnostic lie – impossible
You mock the possibility
Or you think a personal relationship with God is reading books and saying prayers
R" thank you for reading my words long before I met you, if some appear Gnostic to you, that is good for you.

Power from God comes via the amanuah of His words, yes you must read His words and speak those words, but the power of Jesus comes from supporting Jesus in your life.

D"It is all for Him and we have an assignment to perform here
R" So I take it the spirit can talk without lips and walk without legs, but chooses to mate a body because that is our assignment, do walk and talk in the body? OK, no further questions for now.


D"And the question become why does your theology replace Judaism – why Christ said Himself he didn’t not come to change a thing
R" My understanding is I am a child of Abraham, a Hebrew grafted into Hebrew. Jews created a different religion to the Hebrew, maybe? Did not Jesus fight Jews over their Hebrew? All the time. And you say Jesus didn't change anything? Jesus changed the errors in the ways humans lived under Hebrew. Many traditions they were doing wrong, Jesus changed that, not the Hebrew Jesus wrote to His prophets like Moses. Some things got added to because as Jesus saw, the stiff necks got hard so Moses was told to add more RA rules to the hebrew.

The original Hebrew intent is preserved in the Hebrew.

Jesus fought the traditions and precepts of men.


D"Why have you been trained to hate the Jews and all their theology if their theology gave us Christ?
R" I do not hate Jews. I hate only the traditions and precepts of men, as Scripture teaches.

We SDA people call ourselves spiritual Jews, in essence pretty much live as Jews do without unnecessary traditions and additional rules.

D"Judaism is the source of Jesus Christ and all the disciples
I’ll stick with this team – instead of Roman doctrine
R" No Hebrew is the source of Jesus doctrines and his disciples.

Hebrew is not the same as Judaism. Jews also come with traditions and precepts of men.

So I take it you follow dozens of rules on Sabbath, since you are following Jewish laws of Sabbath keeping.

One rule we SDA follow is not kindle a fire on Sabbath, so we do not cook food, we may heat or warm it up, but our cooking is done on Preparation Day, the Friday.


D"God cannot be in two places at the same time – do you even hear your own words
R" you wrote this, not my view or my idea? Stop assuming you know when you don't know. What you have done is because Jesus is an expression of the Father, than the Father died for our sins, and our Father left His throne, something you told me the father can't do. So you is confusing who here, you are, not me?


D"Everything you posted is mainstream Christianity and is very much Dave’s view

OK than let's compare

bustedhalo.com/ministry-resources/what-is-the-trinity

The Church shows that because God is “mystery,” meaning that we just can’t pin God down — we’re unable to know everything there is to know about God — God has tried to communicate to us just who He is. Traditionally, the Church expressed this as, God being revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three expressions or “persons” of one divine essence. The Trinity is one. Catholics do not believe in three Gods but rather one God in a unity of three persons with one divine nature. Sound confusing?

One analogy that could be helpful is to think of the different states of matter: solid, liquid, and gas. Ice can become water and water can become steam. All of these are the same essence and contain equal amounts of hydrogen and oxygen but they appear in different forms.

szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.
God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

The Father
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also those of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Deut. 4:35; Ps. 110:1, 4; John 3:16; 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:28; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 John 4:8; Rev. 4:11.)

The Son
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly human, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (Isa. 53:4-6; Dan. 9:25-27; Luke 1:35; John 1:1-3, 14; 5:22; 10:30; 14:1-3, 9, 13; Rom. 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; 2 Cor. 3:18; 5:17-19; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:15-19; Heb. 2:9-18; 8:1, 2.)


The Holy Spirit
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He is as much a person as are the Father and the Son. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; 2 Sam. 23:2; Ps. 51:11; Isa. 61:1; Luke 1:35; 4:18; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7-13; Acts 1:8; 5:3; 10:38; Rom. 5:5; 1 Cor. 12:7-11; 2 Cor. 3:18; 2 Peter 1:21.)

Pick through Dave, what differences do you see?

I see one major one for me, I see the HS expressing feminine love, a simile of "she" not "he" as SDA now claim, but never did claim when I was baptized in 1980. They have changed their words or doctrines since.

What differences do you see?

D"God Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and he hung Himself on the cross to forgive us


R" Scripture says to me the Father gave us his one and only Son Jesus to come down to earth and was suffered, rejected by man, and hung Himself on the cross , so that the Laws of the Father are just for sin, and so that the Father can forgive us, because of the love of Elohiym.

Now I write details of the each member of the Godhead, you seem reluctant to do that Dave. Why is that?

Do you support which of these lines?

1) The Father Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and the Father hung Himself on the cross to forgive us
or
2)Jesus the Son of the Father, Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and Jesus the Son of the Father, hung Himself on the cross to forgive us

Are they different lines? Oh yeah. Either we have a real Father and a real Son, both functioning as GOD, or we have only the Father functioning as GOD, with different expressions.

Shalom

[Dave]

D" It (ruwach) has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious

RP" My point is all things have to be administrated by GOD, otherwise nothing would exist.
D" Agree at the sub-atomic level – the Spirit of God – the HS – is the medium that sustains the ALL – agreed
It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious
R" wow we agree. So why do you hijack the ruwach as some power you own?
It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious
Man is spirit – we pre-exited before our body was conceived – and our spirit return to the heaven when our body dies
R" Provide discussions and proof from Scripture to back up your claims here Dave.
I just did
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Jesus has existed as a SON of the Father since eternity,

RP"Christ was the angel appointed of God to go before Moses in the wilderness,
D" You think any Christian any where wil belive this?
R" Well that is what Scripture teaches and the SDA support.
The SDA deny that Jesus Christ was the Son of God – he was just an angel
Are all angels the Son of God are all angels Christ
So the SDA teach all angels are Christ – and then Christ turn against God

D"Gnosis = intimate personal relationship – you say this is a Gnostic lie – impossible
You mock the possibility
Or you think a personal relationship with God is reading books and saying prayers

Power from God comes via the amanuah of His words, yes you must read His words and speak those words, but the power of Jesus comes from supporting Jesus in your life.
YES as a believer –

But you said gnosis = a personal intimate relationship with God
Please describe what you mean by an intimate personal relationship
Because mainstream Christianity teach it is being Born Again of spirit – becoming a spiritual Christian – to pray in the spirit – to receive gifts from the spirit
You have argued against this idea from day 1 – you say impossible

I say Elisha’s servant was just a believer – and could not spiritually discern
Elisha – could spiritual discern – because He was a spiritual Christian
I have asked you – did this really happen – or not
You never answered

D"It is all for Him and we have an assignment to perform here
R" So I take it the spirit can talk without lips and walk without legs, but chooses to mate a body because that is our assignment, do walk and talk in the body? OK, no further questions for now.
Please answer – what is the meaning of life – why are we here – do you have an answer
Jews do – I do – the disciples did – the prophets did

D"And the question become why does your theology replace Judaism – why Christ said Himself he didn’t not come to change a thing
R" My understanding is I am a child of Abraham, a Hebrew grafted into Hebrew. Jews created a different religion to the Hebrew, maybe? Did not Jesus fight Jews over their Hebrew? All the time. And you say Jesus didn't change anything?
Correct – Jesus said he did not come to change a thing – YES I accept scripture
YES – the call has always been to become a Born Again Christian and know God personally like the Prophets, like Moses, like David, like so many others in the ahl and agl

Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not be surprised that I said to you, ‘You all must be born from above.’
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Joh 3:9 How can these things happen?” Nicodemus said.
Joh 3:10 Yeshua answered him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these things?

If you are a student of the ahl – why don’t you understand these things?
The Sadducees ran the temple – they do not believe in the spirit just like you – for them it was all about profit in this world

The original Hebrew intent is preserved in the Hebrew.
Jesus fought the traditions and precepts of men.
That is what I just said – now tell me where Jesus preached against the Torah?

D"Judaism is the source of Jesus Christ and all the disciples
I’ll stick with this team – instead of Roman doctrine
R" No Hebrew is the source of Jesus doctrines and his disciples.
So you reject the agl in its entirity - just waht do you use for scripture Ellen White and St Jerome - did they write hebrew?

So I take it you follow dozens of rules on Sabbath, since you are following Jewish laws of Sabbath keeping.
Duh – I am a NT Christian – it is not the ritual of the body – it is not about following a Law – it is about following Christ

One rule we SDA follow is not kindle a fire on Sabbath, so we do not cook food, we may heat or warm it up, but our cooking is done on Preparation Day, the Friday.
it is not about following a Law – it is about following Christ

D"God cannot be in two places at the same time – do you even hear your own words
R" you wrote this, not my view or my idea? Stop assuming you know when you don't know.

Dec 4, 2021 14:51:51 GMT -5 @robertt said:

D"All Jesus did was release His Spirit into God’s hands
All that happened is that the Spirit of Christ left the flesh and returned to heaven as we all will
R" correct
Than explain how the Spirit of Jesus talked to people in Hades, if the Spirit of Jesus returned to His Father?
Can't be in both places, and the spirit can't talk outside of it's body.

See why are conversation are so hard – you make statements to try and score points
Then later you deny you even said them
Who I am speaking with – Robert of today – or the Robert of yesterday

One analogy that could be helpful is to think of the different states of matter: solid, liquid, and gas.
NO – I do not like this one – because these three are septet and cannot co-exist
A better example is a coin

In America we have a quarter (quarter dollar)
We call it a quarter – but you can never see the whole quarter – never
All you can ever see = the Heads side – or the Tails side

There is only One True God – that we can never see
But we can see Him (Heads) – VISIBLE – IMAGE
And we can experience Him as Spirit (Tails) – INVISIBLE
Quarter (coin) = Heads image (visible) and Tails (the other side) Spirit
Is heads the quarter – YES 100%
Is the tail the quarter – YES 100%
Is the Quarter Heads and Tails – YES 100%
Impossible to separate them

E = mc2 and m= E/c2 and c2=E/c2
Impossible to separate them

There is only One True God
No man can see his face or will surely die –
but we can experience God as Spirit –
and we can experience the image of God
Impossible to separate them

The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.
The Father
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation.
The Son
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created
The Holy Spirit
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He
Pick through Dave, what differences do you see? - NONE

I see one major one for me, I see the HS expressing feminine love, a simile of "she" not "he"
What differences do you see?
TRINITY = HE+ HE + SHE
God is androgynous – neither male or female – he is EVERYTHING = both
Mankind – was/is a male dominated species
Our Kings are men – and our God is male – out of cultural respect
Scripture says
Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them.

D"God Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and he hung Himself on the cross to forgive us
R" Scripture says to me the Father gave us his one and only Son Jesus to come down to earth
YEP that is what I said - D"God Himself
Question – how many times was God born into a man as a Son
Answer once – Jesus Christ

2)Jesus the Son of the Father, Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and Jesus the Son of the Father, hung Himself on the cross to forgive us

Jesus is a man – Jesus did not come down from heaven – Jesus was born on earth - biology
God came down and Gen 2:7 became Jesus Christ – God incarnate (Jesus – Son of man)+(Christ – Son of God)
Jesus Christ was rejected - the Son of Man and the Son of God

[Dave]

D" It (ruwach) has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious

RP" My point is all things have to be administrated by GOD, otherwise nothing would exist.
D" Agree at the sub-atomic level – the Spirit of God – the HS – is the medium that sustains the ALL – agreed
It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious
R" wow we agree. So why do you hijack the ruwach as some power you own?
It has absolutely nothing to do with your soul- which is your spirit – the seat of your conscious
Man is spirit – we pre-exited before our body was conceived – and our spirit return to the heaven when our body dies
R" Provide discussions and proof from Scripture to back up your claims here Dave.
I just did
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Jesus has existed as a SON of the Father since eternity,

RP"Christ was the angel appointed of God to go before Moses in the wilderness,
D" You think any Christian any where wil belive this?
R" Well that is what Scripture teaches and the SDA support.
The SDA deny that Jesus Christ was the Son of God – he was just an angel
Are all angels the Son of God are all angels Christ
So the SDA teach all angels are Christ – and then Christ turn against God

D"Gnosis = intimate personal relationship – you say this is a Gnostic lie – impossible
You mock the possibility
Or you think a personal relationship with God is reading books and saying prayers

Power from God comes via the amanuah of His words, yes you must read His words and speak those words, but the power of Jesus comes from supporting Jesus in your life.
YES as a believer –

But you said gnosis = a personal intimate relationship with God
Please describe what you mean by an intimate personal relationship
Because mainstream Christianity teach it is being Born Again of spirit – becoming a spiritual Christian – to pray in the spirit – to receive gifts from the spirit
You have argued against this idea from day 1 – you say impossible

I say Elisha’s servant was just a believer – and could not spiritually discern
Elisha – could spiritual discern – because He was a spiritual Christian
I have asked you – did this really happen – or not
You never answered

D"It is all for Him and we have an assignment to perform here
R" So I take it the spirit can talk without lips and walk without legs, but chooses to mate a body because that is our assignment, do walk and talk in the body? OK, no further questions for now.
Please answer – what is the meaning of life – why are we here – do you have an answer
Jews do – I do – the disciples did – the prophets did

D"And the question become why does your theology replace Judaism – why Christ said Himself he didn’t not come to change a thing
R" My understanding is I am a child of Abraham, a Hebrew grafted into Hebrew. Jews created a different religion to the Hebrew, maybe? Did not Jesus fight Jews over their Hebrew? All the time. And you say Jesus didn't change anything?
Correct – Jesus said he did not come to change a thing – YES I accept scripture
YES – the call has always been to become a Born Again Christian and know God personally like the Prophets, like Moses, like David, like so many others in the ahl and agl

Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not be surprised that I said to you, ‘You all must be born from above.’
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Joh 3:9 How can these things happen?” Nicodemus said.
Joh 3:10 Yeshua answered him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these things?

If you are a student of the ahl – why don’t you understand these things?
The Sadducees ran the temple – they do not believe in the spirit just like you – for them it was all about profit in this world

The original Hebrew intent is preserved in the Hebrew.
Jesus fought the traditions and precepts of men.
That is what I just said – now tell me where Jesus preached against the Torah?

D"Judaism is the source of Jesus Christ and all the disciples
I’ll stick with this team – instead of Roman doctrine
R" No Hebrew is the source of Jesus doctrines and his disciples.
So you reject the agl in its entirity - just waht do you use for scripture Ellen White and St Jerome - did they write hebrew?

So I take it you follow dozens of rules on Sabbath, since you are following Jewish laws of Sabbath keeping.
Duh – I am a NT Christian – it is not the ritual of the body – it is not about following a Law – it is about following Christ

One rule we SDA follow is not kindle a fire on Sabbath, so we do not cook food, we may heat or warm it up, but our cooking is done on Preparation Day, the Friday.
it is not about following a Law – it is about following Christ

D"God cannot be in two places at the same time – do you even hear your own words
R" you wrote this, not my view or my idea? Stop assuming you know when you don't know.

Dec 4, 2021 14:51:51 GMT -5 @robertt said:

D"All Jesus did was release His Spirit into God’s hands
All that happened is that the Spirit of Christ left the flesh and returned to heaven as we all will
R" correct
Than explain how the Spirit of Jesus talked to people in Hades, if the Spirit of Jesus returned to His Father?
Can't be in both places, and the spirit can't talk outside of it's body.

See why are conversation are so hard – you make statements to try and score points
Then later you deny you even said them
Who I am speaking with – Robert of today – or the Robert of yesterday

One analogy that could be helpful is to think of the different states of matter: solid, liquid, and gas.
NO – I do not like this one – because these three are septet and cannot co-exist
A better example is a coin

In America we have a quarter (quarter dollar)
We call it a quarter – but you can never see the whole quarter – never
All you can ever see = the Heads side – or the Tails side

There is only One True God – that we can never see
But we can see Him (Heads) – VISIBLE – IMAGE
And we can experience Him as Spirit (Tails) – INVISIBLE
Quarter (coin) = Heads image (visible) and Tails (the other side) Spirit
Is heads the quarter – YES 100%
Is the tail the quarter – YES 100%
Is the Quarter Heads and Tails – YES 100%
Impossible to separate them

E = mc2 and m= E/c2 and c2=E/c2
Impossible to separate them

There is only One True God
No man can see his face or will surely die –
but we can experience God as Spirit –
and we can experience the image of God
Impossible to separate them

The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.
The Father
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation.
The Son
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created
The Holy Spirit
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He
Pick through Dave, what differences do you see? - NONE

I see one major one for me, I see the HS expressing feminine love, a simile of "she" not "he"
What differences do you see?
TRINITY = HE+ HE + SHE
God is androgynous – neither male or female – he is EVERYTHING = both
Mankind – was/is a male dominated species
Our Kings are men – and our God is male – out of cultural respect
Scripture says
Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them.

D"God Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and he hung Himself on the cross to forgive us
R" Scripture says to me the Father gave us his one and only Son Jesus to come down to earth
YEP that is what I said - D"God Himself
Question – how many times was God born into a man as a Son
Answer once – Jesus Christ

2)Jesus the Son of the Father, Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and Jesus the Son of the Father, hung Himself on the cross to forgive us

Jesus is a man – Jesus did not come down from heaven – Jesus was born on earth - biology
God came down and Gen 2:7 became Jesus Christ – God incarnate (Jesus – Son of man)+(Christ – Son of God)
Jesus Christ was rejected - the Son of Man and the Son of God

Jesus the man died upon the cross – the spirit of Christ (God) returned to heaven

[Deleted]

D"Man is spirit – we pre-exited before our body was conceived – and our spirit return to the heaven when our body dies
I just did
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Jesus has existed as a SON of the Father since eternity,
R" SO what this verse and your discussion says, I have to write it for you, is

Because Jesus pre-existed from eternity, and humans are made in God's image, therefore all humans also have pre-existed from eternity. Is that your view from this verse?

Isn't this a category mistake? Jesus is divine of the family elohiym (ephesians 3:15,16)

Man is mortal of the family (matter with breath of life)

The word "image" does not imply these two categories are the same, only that they are similar.

Now you discuss my discussion.

D"The SDA deny that Jesus Christ was the Son of God – he was just an angel
Are all angels the Son of God are all angels Christ
So the SDA teach all angels are Christ – and then Christ turn against God
R" SDA do not deny Jesus is divine.

The places where Mrs White uses the term angel for Jesus, is a reference to the function of angels, or she is just repeating the fuzzy translations of the KJV, without correcting the translation.


This is angels are messengers. Jesus is the messenger of the Father

Angels are in an army of hosts. Jesus is the archangel, the captain over the hosts of angels, so again functioned within this group, but is NOT of this group.

Before you mock SDA religion, please get your facts correct. I do not mock Gnostic views, nor do I mock your view, but treat you seriously with respect.

D"But you said gnosis = a personal intimate relationship with God
Please describe what you mean by an intimate personal relationship
R" Read through my website for an answer to this "yada" I speak of

D"Because mainstream Christianity teach it is being Born Again of spirit
R" correct, because Jesus cannot physically live in every human physically yoked to them directly and personally, but the HS as a medium can. SO we have Jesus as the mediator of our redemption in human form in heaven in the temple, while His spirit lives in every human, via the medium of the HS. This is the term "being born of the Spirit of Jesus" what was discussed to Nicodemus. We achieve this presence of Jesus, and the Father and the HS via faith in Jesus, taking His words and praying to Him for this power of His presence.


D"becoming a spiritual Christian – to pray in the spirit – to receive gifts from the spirit
R" correct. The presence of Jesus dwells in us, and we become similes of Jesus, lights for Jesus, and thus are witnesses of the Father of lights. The gifts of the spirit is evidence of that love.

D"Please answer – what is the meaning of life – why are we here – do you have an answer
R" to experience God's love and be a witness to that love.


D"Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not be surprised that I said to you, ‘You all must be born from above.’
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Joh 3:9 How can these things happen?” Nicodemus said.
Joh 3:10 Yeshua answered him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these things?

If you are a student of the ahl – why don’t you understand these things?


R" where is your discussion in every verse, showing me your view from your discussions of the verses

You do not make this a serious study. Must I show you again and again how to do a study?

Joh 3:3 Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

How can the spirit and the body be born again, if they are separate. Does this mean ?
reborn the flesh again, or reborn the spirit again? Your view has problems already.

In our view, the soul is both the spirit and the flesh together as one. The whole of the soul must be re-born again, hence why Nicodemus asked, how can a man enter the womb to be re-born?

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Here we have to evaluate what is the difference in these words.

John would have written Hebrew

Basar refers to the flesh of man. The word spirit is hard matter. The Greek translation here is pneuma, ie ruwach.

Does the verse also refer to nashamah? We do not know.

The KJV capitalizes one ruwach and small caps the other ruwach? Why? Obviously they have problems too.

The sad reality we do not know precisely. However we can make a good guess - I will explain here:-

Ge 2:7 nashamah of chay
Ge 6:17 ruwach of chay
Ge 7:22 nashamah ruwach of chay

Notice the Hebrew uses two hebrew words for "spirit"

The KJV does not translate them differently, and since they are used in the same "spirit" term, we have a problem knowing what is going on.

Since my discussions with Dave, I have come to learn "ruwach" refers to the "Spirit" as the KJV terms it and "nashamah" refers to the "spirit", the character developed in man, as the KJV may have termed this.

And again it doesn't matter if you consider this as both ruwach either, for I get the impression the HS administrator of man's spirit anyway, something you disagree with me with.

If God is the administrator of all things, including the observance of evil, why do you be so bold to assume that man's spirit is different? I see this as a pride principle of logic on your part. If I had to err at all, I would prefer to remain a vessel totally serving the Lord and totally dependent upon God for my existence.

I find from logic principles that the claim we are an eternal spirit comes from the serpents lie.

But again, it's funny you do not even consider the serpent lied to Eve.


RP"One rule we SDA follow is not kindle a fire on Sabbath, so we do not cook food, we may heat or warm it up, but our cooking is done on Preparation Day, the Friday.
D" it is not about following a Law – it is about following Christ

R" Well, well, well, my brother Dave who pretends to be a Messanic Jew is not following the commandments of God or the commandments of Jesus. And you say Jesus never changed anything, yet you do not follow the Hebrew laws of the torah. Shame on you. I am probably more Jewish than you give me credit for?

Following Christ, requires you to follow His laws and commandments. DO you need me to proof this to you from Scripture?

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This text is enough already, what commandments did Jesus teach in addition to His Father's commandments, and which are which I wonder?


D" quotes R" saying" Than explain how the Spirit of Jesus talked to people in Hades, if the Spirit of Jesus returned to His Father?
Can't be in both places, and the spirit can't talk outside of it's body.

D" remarks" See why are conversation are so hard – you make statements to try and score points
Then later you deny you even said them


Rob replies, I am talking about your problem from a secular view point, if a person's spirit returns to the Father, how can that same spirit speak to others in Hades at the same time?

Doesn't make sense, and I am not considering that Jesus' spirit is the same as the Father.

You would say both are God the same being, so again it makes no sense. Same logic in Gensis 24 when both expressions of GOD appear at thre same time, one in heaven and one on earth, again this makes no sense, can you have two expressions, make even two minds, two emotions, at the same time.

Again in Genesis 17 the Shadday and YHWH Jesus walk together, so again can this make sense, can a masculine expression and a feminine expression exist as the same BEING at the same time, in two separate bodies and separate personalities. Again I pose to you to make sense of your view.

I have a different view of GOD and the Godhead, and my view makes sense. Your's doesn't.


D"NO – I do not like this one – because these three are septet (separate) and cannot co-exist
A better example is a coin
R" Now you really twist my brain? Explain than how both the Shadday and YHWH-JESUS walked in Gen 17 both at the same time, you say this cannot co-exist.

Ge 17:1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect
Both YHWH-JESUS and the SHADDAY-EL walk together before Abram.

You say "NO – I do not like this one – because these three are (separate) and cannot co-exist"


But here they both walk together before Abram... why must the Shadday walk also before YHWH?

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

This gives a clue, the Shadday expresses mostly as a Medium, known as holy wind.
Having a medium allows GOD to walk before sinful man, and cause sinful man to NOT cease to exist.

D"Impossible to separate them
R" And impossible for both the heads and tails to exist as faces upon mankind? Is that it?
But Scripture shows both faces of GOD existing at the same time.

D"God is androgynous – neither male or female – he is EVERYTHING = both
R" How strange, you use the verse man was created in God's image, so why wasn't man created both male and female, like GOD is? I pity your logic, it never is consistent and it makes no sense?

The only animal I know that is both male and female is the common earthworm. Such animals do exist. Why was most animals created in two separate personalities, something you say God is NOT?

D"D"God Himself – came down to earth – suffered – was rejected by man – and he hung Himself on the cross
YEP that is what I said - D"God Himself
R" SO the Father prayer often to the Father, yep makes a lot of sense Dave.

Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Father-Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father-sitting, the hour is come; glorify thy Father-Jesus-expression, that thy Father-Jesus-expression also may glorify Father-sitting-in heaven:

Yep your logic really makes sense.

D"God came down and Gen 2:7 became Jesus Christ – God incarnate (Jesus – Son of man)+(Christ – Son of God)
R" I see, the Jesus-spirit pre-existed from eternity, but entered a biological body since Mary's time?

Jesus-spirit is really the Father-spirit.

Explain to me this idea than

Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Who is this SON of MAN who comes before the Ancient of Days? 

Must the the Father expression coming to the Father expression, according to you?

I get the impression the Son of Man, looked like humans from eternity, I say looked, not the same as but similar to.

Notice humans were made a little lower than elohiym (not angels) , so Jesus who pre-existed in both body and spirit, looked like Adam from eternity. 
This body is not of matter in the OT. My two pennies worth.

OK, I am running later today, we had a storm, I overslept, and I will post this and get back to your other posts tomorrow. Work calls. Have a great day Dave. God bless.

Shalom

[Dave]

Man is mortal of the family (matter with breath of life)
Correct – mortal biological man is of the dust – agreed
But I am speaking of the spirit – you just deny the spirit

R" SDA do not deny Jesus is divine. - angels are messengers. Jesus is the messenger of the Father
Then why do you argue so hard that angels are not messengers
I am the one that had to prove to the that the man John had angels of his own

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his (messengers) were cast out with him. 

Angels are in an army of hosts. – and Christians are a full part of that army
Who do you serve? For whose cause do you champion here on this form Ezk 28 two words and Catholic doctrine

Jesus is the archangel, - disrespectful blasphemy
It is the correct use of vocabulary - Chief messenger that is all - Christ is not an angel
all you have is a word game

Before you mock SDA religion, please get your facts correct.
All that fact I personally know of about the SDA come straight from you

D"But you said gnosis = a personal intimate relationship with God
Please describe what you mean by an intimate personal relationship
R" Read through my website for an answer to this "yada" I speak of
Unwilling to answer – because you know you have the wrong answer

I asked you if the story of Elisa and his servant was true – or just a story
You failed to answer
Either you beieve in a spiritual reailty - or you do not
Either you believe that the Spirit of God can be all arounds us all the time - or you deny it
Never in my entire life have I ever heard another Christian suggest that God - or Christ acnnot be in two places at the same time
Never in my entire life have I ever heard another Christian suggest that there are places where the light of God cannot exist (shadow experiment)

If you are a student of the ahl – why don’t you understand these things?

In our view, the soul is both the spirit and the flesh together as one.
Whose spirit - I say the spirit of man - you just say it is the HS that empowers you
Correct – all you have is biology (world) – no spiritual component

Joh 3:6 John would have written Hebrew
STOP TRYING TO REWRITE THE AGL – it was Greek – it has always been Greek
Why would Paul write a letter in Hebrew to people that did not know Hebrew –
Your made up logic fails
STOP MAKING UP STUFF - SHOW ME THE DATA

Does the verse also refer to nashamah? We do not know.
The verse says G4151 - πνεῦμα – pneuma
STOP TRYING TO REWRITE THE AGL – it was Greek – it has always been Greek
Why would Paul write a letter in Hebrew to people that did not know Hebrew –
Your made up logic fails
STOP MAKING UP STUFF - SHOW ME THE DATA

The KJV capitalizes one ruwach and small caps the other ruwach? Why? Obviously they have problems too.
Because the translators respected the Spirit of the Lord – God always gets a capital letter
Even your KJV translators understood the spirit

The sad reality we do not know precisely. However we can make a good guess - I will explain here:-
Once you have a spiritual encounter – you will understand the difference

Notice the Hebrew uses two hebrew words for "spirit"
So does English - Spirt and soul

The KJV does not translate them differently, and since they are used in the same "spirit" term, we have a problem knowing what is going on.
Because the spirit is free – and the soul is a spirit within a body

Since my discussions with Dave, I have come to learn "ruwach" refers to the "Spirit" as the KJV terms it and "nashamah" refers to the "spirit", the character developed in man, as the KJV may have termed this.

And again it doesn't matter if you consider this as both ruwach either, for I get the impression the HS administrator of man's spirit anyway, something you disagree with me with.
YES Robert – the HS is the base matrix that sustains the ALL
But that has nothing to do with your conscious – the spirit with you – your soul

If God is the administrator of all things, including the observance of evil, why do you be so bold to assume that man's spirit is different?
So to you man is no different than an ant – or a cockroach
So what makes man so special to God – if we are just like all the other animals?

I find from logic principles that the claim we are an eternal spirit comes from the serpents lie.
Funny – Judaism and Christian preach / teach salvation of the soul
Which one of us is the denier

But again, it's funny you do not even consider the serpent lied to Eve.
Scripture doesn’t even say the serpent lied – He deceived

R" Well, well, well, my brother Dave who pretends to be a Messanic Jew is not following the commandments of God or the commandments of Jesus. And you say Jesus never changed anything, yet you do not follow the Hebrew laws of the torah. Shame on you. I am probably more Jewish than you give me credit for?

I have no doubt you have religious laws to follow – you teach that following laws is necessary for salvation – you teach God respects the law obeyed

Dave cannot be a Messanic Jew - I have admitted this -
But I am a Gnostic Christian - spiritual decendent of Abraham

www.phildrysdale.com/2013/10/37-scriptures-that-prove-christians-are-not-under-the-law/
37 Scriptures That Prove Christians Are Not Under The Law

Rom 3:20 For no human, on the basis of Torah observance, will be set right in His sight—for through the Torah comes awareness of sin.

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Salvation-Not-By-Works
32 Bible verses about Salvation Not By Works

Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Following Christ, requires you to follow His laws and commandments. DO you need me to proof this to you from Scripture?

Please make me a list – I can only find two
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Correct – if you walk in the spirit – everything takes care of itself

Rob replies, I am talking about your problem from a secular view point, if a person's spirit returns to the Father, how can that same spirit speak to others in Hades at the same time?
Well I am speak of a theological view – God is spirit and he is omnipresent
You deny this claim – you say God is not capable of witness to two different people in different locations at the same time
Can you God hear two prayers at the same time?
What if the prayers are separated by many miles – other side of the planet
You God is too small – you just disrespect God

Doesn't make sense, and I am not considering that Jesus' spirit is the same as the Father.
Correct – you have multiple gods – which one do you pray to?
Or do you teach it doesn’t matter which god you pray to?

I have a different view of GOD and the Godhead, and my view makes sense. Your's doesn't.
You deny that there is One True God - and seem to say it with pride

Ge 17:1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect
Both YHWH-JESUS and the SHADDAY-EL walk together before Abram.
YES – Christ in the ahl

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
This gives a clue, the Shadday expresses mostly as a Medium, known as holy wind.
YES this proves that man was created by the HS –
The HS = Creator - the agls says Christ is the Creator – and the ahl says God is the creator
TRINITY

D"Impossible to separate them
R" And impossible for both the heads and tails to exist as faces upon mankind? Is that it?
But Scripture shows both faces of GOD existing at the same time.
Why do you think God is so small – is it because you have been taught that God is second to your satan
According to you Gof cannot create a world as he Wills – satan is stronger and changes it

R" How strange, you use the verse man was created in God's image, so why wasn't man created both male and female, like GOD is? I pity your logic, it never is consistent and it makes no sense?
So in the species of man – there are no males and females?

The only animal I know that is both male and female is the common earthworm.
So – what does that have to do with my words? – an earthworm is not androgynous
(google) Earthworms are simultaneous hermaphrodites, meaning worms have both male and female reproductive organs.

A student – usually builds vocabulary
Please check you facts before presenting them – you make up wild statements that are just not true
It is a watse of time – it only harms your tarnished credibility

I get the impression the Son of Man, looked like humans from eternity, I say looked, not the same as but similar to.
YES – you often anthropomorphize the heavens – it is all biology to you

[Deleted]

D"Jesus is the archangel, - disrespectful blasphemy
It is the correct use of vocabulary - Chief messenger that is all - Christ is not an angel
all you have is a word game
R" angel means messenger.

D"Then why do you argue so hard that angels are not messengers
R" Angels are messengers, I do not deny this function of the cherubims.

Jesus is the archangel, means arche, chief over the messengers, does not imply Jesus is cherub, but does imply Jesus is the chief messenger for His Father.

Something you deny, for you have Jesus as the Father expression, not a messenger at all.

D"All that fact I personally know of about the SDA come straight from you
R" not all, you make up stuff I never said, misquote me.

D"I asked you if the story of Elisa and his servant was true – or just a story
You failed to answer
R" the story is true, yes.


D"Never in my entire life have I ever heard another Christian suggest that God - or Christ acnnot be in two places at the same time
R" this will never make sense to you because your Jesus is a Father expression, so yes I agree it does not make sense. Never will make sense until you see the Father as distinct from His Son.

The Father is a spirit being without mater around Him.
The Son is also a spirit being but is clothed in humanity, so that changes / restricts some functions of divinity within Jesus, who is our personal high human priest before the Father.

Make a mockery of a priest before the Father, if Jesus is the Father in expression. Is not a mockery if both members of the divine are real Father and real Son.


D"Never in my entire life have I ever heard another Christian suggest that there are places where the light of God cannot exist (shadow experiment)
R" Technically light travels in straight lines in all places of 3D. However when subject to constraints, such as a ball of light and a solid object, maths shows there is a umbra shadow and a pre umbra shadow. The umbra shadow is a region of less light in this place. Not technically no light, but less light.

Have you read my study on this Dave, or are you shooting from the hip?

D"STOP TRYING TO REWRITE THE AGL – it was Greek – it has always been Greek
Why would Paul write a letter in Hebrew to people that did not know Hebrew –
Your made up logic fails
STOP MAKING UP STUFF - SHOW ME THE DATA

R" Paul was a Hebrew person, He also could speak Rome Latin and Athens Greek, lucky for him.

All other Jews were forced to speak Hebrew. Some Gentile Jews could speak both Hebrew and Greek.

Those that went to the Jewish churches had sermons in Hebrew, never Greek.

Paul wrote in Hebrew and later was translated into Hebrew

Do you want proof of this idea?

SO you think I am making up stuff? Explain to me why Thomas said  My YHWH and MY ELOHIYM, the Greek never says this?

The Greek does not say this, does it?

How much Hebrew is lost by the lousy Greek translation?


D"Because the translators respected the Spirit of the Lord – God always gets a capital letter
Even your KJV translators understood the spirit
R" Or were they biased?

D"So what makes man so special to God – if we are just like all the other animals?
R" Only that man's ruwach goes upwards to God and the other animals goes downwards.

D"Scripture doesn’t even say the serpent lied – He deceived
R" so deceiving isn't lying?

D"Can you God hear two prayers at the same time?
What if the prayers are separated by many miles – other side of the planet
R" the HS takes your prayers to Jesus in human form in His sanctuary who processes them to His Father.

D"Correct – you have multiple gods – which one do you pray to?
R" I do not have multiple gods, please define what this means?

Provider love and collective love and Responder love cannot function on their own, love is the echad of a circuit of love working as ONE source of love, not three springs of love. Your thinking is way off track.


D"You deny that there is One True God - and seem to say it with pride
Define your Father and define the term God, they are not the same meanings.

There is only ONE source of love, yes.

D"YES – Christ in the ahl
R" SO el shadday the feminine expression is the same as YHWH, the masculine expression?
Both walked together before Abram.

D"YES this proves that man was created by the HS –
R" No it doesn't, create not mentioned.

D"So in the species of man – there are no males and females?
R" I would not call my wife a Robert expression of myself.

You say the Father is both male and female. Explain

D"So – what does that have to do with my words? – an earthworm is not androgynous
(google) Earthworms are simultaneous hermaphrodites, meaning worms have both male and female reproductive organs.
R" explain in simple words Dave?

Shalom

[Dave]

all you have is a word game
R" angel means messenger.
D"Then why do you argue so hard that angels are not messengers
R" Angels are messengers,

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
You spent 6 months arguing that Rev 12:9 proved that the messengers of the Beast are angels – according to you they must be God’s angels because of the word used – angelos

So – were you serious then – or are you serious now?
Which Robert am I speaking with today?

D"All that fact I personally know of about the SDA come straight from you
R" not all, you make up stuff I never said, misquote me.
D"Never in my entire life have I ever heard another Christian suggest that God - or Christ acnnot be in two places at the same time
R" this will never make sense to you because your Jesus is a Father expression, so yes I agree it does not make sense. Never will make sense until you see the Father as distinct from His Son.
I quoted you before and Ill quote you again – Mr Academically serious

D"I asked you if the story of Elisa and his servant was true – or just a story
You failed to answer
R" the story is true, yes.
Then why do you deny it happens today?
You either believe scripture - or you mock it - please decide

Those that went to the Jewish churches had sermons in Hebrew, never Greek.
Paul wrote to the Romans – (not Hebrew) to the Galatians (Greek not Hebrew) to the Ephesians (Greek not Hebrew) to Timothy (in Greek Ephesus) To Philippi (Greek not Hebrew) to Thessalonica (Greek not Hebrew) To Corinth (Greek not Hebrew) Luke was not a Hebrew or a Jew - He was a Greek physician

Paul wrote in Hebrew and later was translated into Hebrew Greek
Do you want proof of this idea?
SO you think I am making up stuff? Explain to me why Thomas said My YHWH and MY ELOHIYM, the Greek never says this?

More Robert method is it
So Gnostic Thomas – whom you swear is garbage – and not written by Thomas – in a text that you swear has zero value - you even say it is from satan
Is proof that Paul wrote Hebrew in his letters to the Greek gentile population
Please explain your logic – please –
Herodotus wrote in Latin – does that mean Shakespeare did also?

D"Because the translators respected the Spirit of the Lord – God always gets a capital letter
Even your KJV translators understood the spirit
R" Or were they biased?
Belief in the spirit has always been a Jewish and Christian belief of mainstream Christianity
Obviously you have not been brought up with mainstream Christian beliefs
Or you think arguing against mainstream Christian beliefs is he way you support Christ
You admit that you do not support Christ as the Creator - therefore do not support Christ as the One True Creator

You teach that we must support Christ in order to be saved
No wonder you dislaike everything Jewish - they / we Christians support YHWY who is the Christ - Trinity

D"So what makes man so special to God – if we are just like all the other animals?
R" Only that man's ruwach goes upwards to God and the other animals goes downwards.
But you argue that man has no spirit – we are just animals like cows empowered by the HS
I have no idea – who I am speaking with – your beliefs change with the wind

D"Scripture doesn’t even say the serpent lied – He deceived
R" so deceiving isn't lying?
If deceiving was lying – you could have your used car salesman or politician jailed for missrepresentation

D"Can your God hear two prayers at the same time?
What if the prayers are separated by many miles – other side of the planet
R" the HS takes your prayers to Jesus in human form in His sanctuary who processes them to His Father.
And the answer to my question is where – I cannot find it
all I see are multiple gods - Can't your God hear you when yo pray?
What type of personal intiment relationship do you call that
Did Moses or John speak to God - or did they send off a messange and wait for the answer to come back via the grape vine?

D"Correct – you have multiple gods – which one do you pray to?
R" I do not have multiple gods, please define what this means?
You say Jesus Christ cannot possible be God the Father – and you say neither of them are the HS
So which of your 3 gods do you pray to

D"You deny that there is One True God - and seem to say it with pride
Define your Father and define the term God, they are not the same meanings.
TRINITY – end of story – not complicated – just as simple as John 1:1-4

D"YES this proves that man was created by the HS –
R" No it doesn't, create not mentioned.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me,
Job 33:4 The Ruach of God has made me;
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me,

Job 26:13 By His Spirit the heavens He beautified, Formed hath His hand the fleeing serpent.
Oops! the HS made the serpent - it was the hand of God
Psa 33:6 By Adonai’s word were the heavens made, and all their host by the breath of His mouth.
Psa 104:30 You send forth Your Ruach—they are created,

D"So in the species of man – there are no males and females?
R" I would not call my wife a Robert expression of myself.
More of Roberts exagerations - is it helpful - is it academically serious
DUH – she is an expression of God – are you God Robert – do you think your God
You claim to be the embodiment of the HS walking around in an animal body – are you God?

D"So – what does that have to do with my words? – an earthworm is not androgynous
R" explain in simple words Dave?
androgynous
Neither male or female; of indeterminate sex.

hermaphrodite.
having the physical characteristics of both sexes;

Robert seriously – your word games are tiring
You avoide direct questions by claiminmg ignorance - you pretend you don't understand - you claim English is hard for you to grasp - yet claim to be a Hebrew taranslation expert - but you can't translate
If you turn in your homework and tell the teacher – I didn’t understand the vocabulary
What would your teacher suggest to help you be serious and more successful student?

Usually, student build vocabulary
But you just choose to stumble all over it - because you think its respectful to play word games with scripture

Dec 6, 2021 9:13:59 GMT -5 Dave said:

ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/536/nebuchadnezzar-dream-refers-islam?page=1&scrollTo=6734
Lay our difference aside for the moment

Please comment on this thread - at the end - I post 2 videos
Chuck Missler - a good summery of all Christian views
Walid Shoebat - the view from the Islamic side

[Deleted]

D" You spent 6 months arguing that Rev 12:9 proved that the messengers of the Beast are angels – according to you they must be God’s angels because of the word used – angelos

So – were you serious then – or are you serious now?
Which Robert am I speaking with today?
R" You have not proved to me or any readers reading this, that your archons even exist. Sure the term archon means rulers of darkness, ( A Greek word) but that does not mean they have an origin, as a kind. The only created creatures we can easily fathom that live and guard God's throne is the cherub. These are messengers , and hence we call the cherub angels in English.

But NO, Dave argue the aggelos are messengers, not angels, and not cherub, but some unknown kind of creature called archons, fathered by GOD intentionally for the earth to test humans to sin.

What kind of GOD do you worship that intentionally tempts humans to sin rather than to love?

So God can see if their love is genuine? What game are you presenting Dave?

Who would want a God that did such a thing? create creatures to harm humans and keep them away from God?

And again to confuse matters you speak of Satanas , not the hebrew Satan, you invent another term for these bad creatures.

But never have you every convinced anybody that such confusion is proved from Scripture, you have to use Gnostic writings instead.

Still waiting for a scholar to prove Satanas is a creature from OT times or NT times, different to satan.

Still waiting for a Bible proof of the origin of archons, your ben elohiym, is not the same hebrew words.

Where does the shedim come from? The OT doesn't say.

D"Then why do you deny it happens today?
R" what exactly am I denying? Again your brevity is serious discussion?


D"Paul wrote to the Romans – (not Hebrew) to the Galatians (Greek not Hebrew) to the Ephesians (Greek not Hebrew) to Timothy (in Greek Ephesus) To Philippi (Greek not Hebrew) to Thessalonica (Greek not Hebrew) To Corinth (Greek not Hebrew) Luke was not a Hebrew or a Jew - He was a Greek physician
R" The Gentiles went to Jewish churches for sermons? Jews do not normally associate with those who cannot speak hebrew. The Gentiles Paul associated with would have been Hebrew and Greek speaking. Maybe later the Hebrew speaking gentiles translated Pauls words into Greek for Greek speaking Gentiles.


D"Belief in the spirit has always been a Jewish and Christian belief of mainstream Christianity
Obviously you have not been brought up with mainstream Christian beliefs
R" mainstream Christian beliefs say when you die you go straight to heaven as a spirit, yes they say that. We SDA people do not support this idea.


D"You teach that we must support Christ in order to be saved
R" correct

D"If deceiving was lying – you could have your used car salesman or politician jailed for missrepresentation
R" Typical Dave. You do not support Sola Scriptoria do you?

Secular you are.

My definitions for all things spiritual come only from the Hebrew Scriptures. Deception is a SIN according to Scripture. Who cares what man's precepts define deception as.



D"Can't your God hear you when yo pray?
What type of personal intiment relationship do you call that
R" One that is personal, and uses a heavenly sanctuary with a human high priest there called Jesus, the Son of GOD.

Your view has no personal human form, all you have is the Father, who hears prayers and answer them. I suspect you have no heavenly sanctuary either and no human high priest either. Only a Father doing everything.

D"You say Jesus Christ cannot possible be God the Father – and you say neither of them are the HS
So which of your 3 gods do you pray to?
R" I ask you a question and you do not answer/

D"you have multiple gods – which one do you pray to?
R" please define what you mean by "multiple gods"? no such thing in my view of GOD
Are you suggesting your God is just one Father and that is all? Why than do you make three expressions?

My GOD is a FAMILY, and a family comes with three members. A member is just a member.
If the Australian government is a FAMILY power, each voted member is just elected to belong. Does not make the voted member an Australian authority or god as you claim.

Only the Australian government is GOD, not the individual members? I

have tried to discuss things with government to individual members and they always pass the buck, why? Because the individual members are not god, not in charge of policies they write, so in essence you never get answers from government. What you are presenting Dave about multiple gods is Greek and pagan notions, that make no sense to me or anybody else. How can Zeus have Athena doing what she likes in a Greek deity of family powers? Weird and why nobody today follows such notions.

This is why the Bible does not name the opposing government elohiym with a name. It is just an elohiym power that opposes GOD who is the true elohoiym power. The Hebrew word satan simply means Oppose.

SO you either walk with God or you oppose God.

Strange you twist the word to mean prosecutor... you play word games Dave. Try substituting prosecutor for every time the word satan is used in Hebrew. It will not work, but oppose/opposer works for every verse. The word adversary cannot fit all verses either, as the word come in verb and noun forms.


RP"Define your Father and define the term God, they are not the same meanings.
D" TRINITY – end of story – not complicated – just as simple as John 1:1-4
R" Again Dave cannot defend his view. I asked you to define Father and to define GOD.

They cannot be the same meanings.

I can do this easily. GOD = GOVERNMENT = FAMILY

Father is a member .

For example in Hebrew JUDGES are elohiym power.
A judge is one member of the bar.

Dave cannot define his terms when asked to. Please define your terms.

D"Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me,
Job 33:4 The Ruach of God has made me;
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me,
R" Job 33:4 The Spirit <ruwach> of God <'el> hath made <`asah> me,

Since when is "asah" meaning "do" the same as "bara" meaning "Create" ?

By the way what does the MEDIUM do?

The HS does alot, it empowers the medium conduit through which the powers of GOD flow to us, either as the breath of life or as the breath of salvation or both. This the HS does.


Dave discussion " Job 26:13 By His Spirit the heavens He beautified, Formed hath His hand the fleeing serpent.
D" Oops! the HS made the serpent - it was the hand of God

R" Job 26:13 By his spirit <ruwach> he hath garnished <shiphrah> the heavens <shamayim>; his hand <yad> hath formed <chuwl> the crooked <bariyach> serpent <nachash>.

Last time I checked using all the verses to define "chuwl" Dave, it means to "bring forth" in the way a "baby is brought forth from its womb".

Jeff Benner translates as "twist" as in twisting with joy during delivery of baby.

So I get the impression the sinning serpent came forth. Was not made or created by God to be sinful or sinning, but came forth as a sinning agent.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,

Speaking of the cherub

Nu 21:6 And the LORD <Y@hovah> sent <shalach> fiery <saraph> serpents <nachash>

Notice the serpents are also described as saraph, a term that means burning.

Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

THis verse equates the serpent with the saraph serpent.

Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

And here the serpent that is equated with a sparaph serpent, is also equated with the dragon in the sea

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Same idea here, all the same being.

So was the crooked serpent made that way ? No "chuwl" means, it came forth that way.
Dave discussion "

D" Psa 33:6 By Adonai’s word were the heavens made, and all their host by the breath of His mouth.

R" Dave is implying the HS creates, makes or made. NO. The HS does, and allows to come forth.

The YHWH speaks the word of creating and the HS does what is commanded.

D"More of Roberts exagerations - is it helpful - is it academically serious
R" Dave, can't you defend your view? How can a Being be both a male and a female, what that means?
Stop mocking me and answer your own theory?

D"androgynous
Neither male or female; of indeterminate sex.

hermaphrodite.
having the physical characteristics of both sexes;

Robert seriously – your word games are tiring
You avoide direct questions by claiminmg ignorance - you pretend you don't understand - you claim English is hard for you to grasp - yet claim to be a Hebrew taranslation expert - but you can't translate
R" Dave I think and write as a child, anything wrong with that?

Ps 131:1 LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. 2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.

So keep your sentences really simple. OK

So you are saying your Father being is neither masculine nor is feminine, but can express itself as masculine and as feminine when ever it wants to? Is that it?

Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Seems to my child simple mind this verse is saying the Father, the Son and the HS (mother) are divine members of the FAMILY in heaven, from which we humans are named.

This view aligns with Provider Love (ab) responder love (am) and collective love (Ben) views of Hebrew love too.


D"Usually, student build vocabulary
But you just choose to stumble all over it - because you think its respectful to play word games with scripture
R" Dave, the Bible says the Bible is the only book you read, do not add words to the Bible we are warned, do not take words away. You do. You ignore Prophet Ezekiel words. You add Gnostic words to the torah.

I do not need the wisdom of men, androgynous or hermaphrodite. I just need the child like Scripture only.


D"yet claim to be a Hebrew taranslation expert - but you can't translate
R" Jeff says the meaning of letters in Hebrew explain the words on Hebrew, so translation may be useful, but than we do not even agree on the words, let alone the sentences.

Shalom

[Dave]

Still waiting for a scholar to prove Satanas is a creature from OT times or NT times, different to satan.
Thank you for your respect
What is a scholar - want to comapre credentials? I can show you PhDs on both sides of every argument.
But your respect is duely noted

Still waiting for a Bible proof of the origin of archons, your ben elohiym, is not the same hebrew words.
Why do you deny Rev chapter 12?

Where does the shedim come from? The OT doesn't say.
Why do you deny Rev chapter 12?

D"Then why do you deny it happens today?
R" what exactly am I denying? Again your brevity is serious discussion?
Your pretend ignorance is not endearing – you Mock Pentecostalism is all its forms – tyou argue against the spirit – you argue against being Born Again by the spirit – you dent that the spirit is immortal

The Gentiles Paul associated with would have been Hebrew and Greek speaking.
Absolute rubbish – not consistent with history – stop making up crap
The WORLD spoke Greek – Hebrew was a rare subset spoke only by the Jewish religious elite
Check your fact before you speak – it make you look better prepaired

D"Belief in the spirit has always been a Jewish and Christian belief of mainstream Christianity
Obviously you have not been brought up with mainstream Christian beliefs
R" mainstream Christian beliefs say when you die you go straight to heaven as a spirit, yes they say that. We SDA people do not support this idea.
You pretend Christianity teaches Jesus as a get out of jail card – an reprieve from our actions
Christianity does not teach your version of events
You pretend that you can avoid Proportional Punishment – just sleep though it
Christianity teaches – each man his due – Deeds, Works, and Fruit
And Christianity teaches First fruits

D"you have multiple gods – which one do you pray to?
R" please define what you mean by "multiple gods"? no such thing in my view of GOD
My GOD is a FAMILY, and a family comes with three members.
And you say that God the Father cannot be Christ the Son – impossible you say

Are you suggesting your God is just one Father and that is all? Why than do you make three expressions?
Because God the Father is beyond man’s ability to comprehend
Because God in the image of man –Christ – is something man can relate to
Because – the Spirit of God is all around us all the time – and it is Holy

Dave discussion " Job 26:13 By His Spirit the heavens He beautified, Formed hath His hand the fleeing serpent.
D" Oops! the HS made the serpent - it was the hand of God
R" Job 26:13 By his spirit <ruwach> he hath garnished <shiphrah> the heavens <shamayim>; his hand <yad> hath formed <chuwl> the crooked <bariyach> serpent <nachash>.

Last time I checked using all the verses to define "chuwl" Dave, it means to "bring forth" in the way a "baby is brought forth from its womb".
Jeff Benner translates as "twist" as in twisting with joy during delivery of baby.

Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child.

So I get the impression the sinning serpent came forth. Was not made or created by God to be sinful or sinning, but came forth as a sinning agent.
YES – came forth as the BEAST of Revelation – Not perfect in all his ways Ezk 28
Why do you deny Rev chapter 12?

Re 20:2 Same idea here, all the same being.
YEP – that is what I have always said – the exact same being – The Beast of revelations, the serpent race, the devils, the satans

So was the crooked serpent made that way ? No "chuwl" means, it came forth that way.
YES – came forth as the BEAST of Revelation – Not perfect in all his ways Ezk 28
Why do you deny Rev chapter 12?

D"androgynous
Neither male or female; of indeterminate sex.
hermaphrodite.
having the physical characteristics of both sexes;
R" Dave I think and write as a child, anything wrong with that?
I teach my children to use a dictionary -

So you are saying your Father being is neither masculine nor is feminine, but can express itself as masculine and as feminine whenever it wants to? Is that it?
It is not an off and on proposition – God is always on His throne 24/7 – His Spirit is always here 24/7 – Christ is always here 24/7 and has always been here
God is male out of male dominated culrural respect - Jesus Christ was male
Spirit - is a feminie word - is associated with the womb of creation

Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
I do not disagree with your family idea as a nice sermon
However – the only begotten Son = Jesus Christ – the one and only time God was born as a man
D"Usually, student build vocabulary
But you just choose to stumble all over it - because you think its respectful to play word games with scripture
R" Dave, the Bible says the Bible is the only book you read, do not add words to the Bible
This does not mean avoid dictionaries when trying to have an intelligent conversation
Change languages and all the vocabulary changes with new and different issues

[Deleted]

D"Thank you for your respect
What is a scholar - want to comapre credentials? I can show you PhDs on both sides of every argument.
But your respect is duely noted
R" sorry my friend, show me a link study that proves Satanas is a different term to satan.
I see the Greek, but have no understanding why the Greek is different.

D"The WORLD spoke Greek – Hebrew was a rare subset spoke only by the Jewish religious elite
Check your fact before you speak – it make you look better prepaired
R" that is a myth my friend, Hebrew was common in Pauls day, the slang Jeff Benner speaks, shows in 30 AD, Hebrew was common, not rare

Sorry Jeff's website is so big and different I can't find the relic. "He isn't here" a relic of a war in AD, hebrew doesn't have slang, proves the language was common, not rare.


D"Christianity does not teach your version of events
You pretend that you can avoid Proportional Punishment – just sleep though it
Christianity teaches – each man his due – Deeds, Works, and Fruit
And Christianity teaches First fruits
R" Well defend your view Dave, show me your texts

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
(KJV)

This one text over rides all others, when you die, your body ceases to think.

I suppose you say the ruwach / HS returns and speaks for you? you have an immortal spirit in the body that can speak without it's body? Prove this idea?


D"Because God the Father is beyond man’s ability to comprehend
Because God in the image of man –Christ – is something man can relate to
R" This theory is modalism, one Father does all things for himself, including expressing Himself as a man on earth for saving humans.

SO how does the Father die on a cross while the Father in heaven lives on?

"beyond man’s ability to comprehend" so your theory cannot be explained?

D"YES – came forth as the BEAST of Revelation – Not perfect in all his ways Ezk 28
Why do you deny Rev chapter 12?
R" I don't. Came forth, yes, not created to be sinful, but came forth to be sinful, decided to sin, free will sin.


D"YEP – that is what I have always said – the exact same being – The Beast of revelations, the serpent race, the devils, the satans
R" Oh so we agree now, the Devil, Serpent and Beast, the same power that came forth sinning?

D"I teach my children to use a dictionary -
R" BIble says do not learn the traditions and precepts of men.

D"It is not an off and on proposition – God is always on His throne 24/7 – His Spirit is always here 24/7 – Christ is always here 24/7 and has always been here
SO if your Father exists as a Father and the expressed masculine side is a SOn and the feminine side is a HS, "and has always been here"; how is this any different to a Divine Family with a Father, Mother and Son? You speak twisting themes?

Explain how your theory is different to mine?

Explain why wouldn't the Jew see the "always been here as a masculine SON expression" as a multiple god?

D"I do not disagree with your family idea as a nice sermon
However – the only begotten Son = Jesus Christ – the one and only time God was born as a man
R" correct? SO what now you agree with me?

D"This does not mean avoid dictionaries when trying to have an intelligent conversation
Change languages and all the vocabulary changes with new and different issues
R" That is what exactly the Bible means, do not learn man's traditions and man's precepts. DO not add to the Bible words man invents. trinity for example is a man made invented word. 
I prefer to use Hebrew words only, such as family for elohiym. Example a family of judges. 

SHalom

[Dave]

R" show me a link study that proves Satanas is a different term to satan.
I see the Greek, but have no understanding why the Greek is different.
You force words together regardless of grammar, spelling, syntax, context, or origin
Do you understand how to read a dictionary?

H7854 – שָׂטָן - śâṭân -
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan,: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
H7853 – שָׂטַן - śâṭan - A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse:

These are Hebrew words – from Hebrew – their origin is the Hebrew language

G4566 Σατᾶν – Satan Of Hebrew origin [H7854]; Satan, that is, the devil:
Here is the Greek equivalent – it only appears once in the agl
2Co 12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself.
The work of a prosecutor – a reminder

G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan.
This is not a Hebrew word – it is not of Hebrew origin – it is not Hebrew H7854 Hebrew satan
This word is of Chaldean origin – from the 99% - the world of ‘other gods’

You force words together regardless of grammar, spelling, syntax, context, or origin
Your Robert method is flawed – it has failed you in thr past – and it only prevents you from seeing the obviouse

D"The WORLD spoke Greek – Hebrew was a rare subset spoke only by the Jewish religious elite
Check your fact before you speak – it make you look better prepaired
R" that is a myth my friend, Hebrew was common in Pauls day,

D"Paul wrote to the Romans – (not Hebrew) to the Galatians (Greek not Hebrew) to the Ephesians (Greek not Hebrew) to Timothy (in Greek Ephesus) To Philippi (Greek not Hebrew) to Thessalonica (Greek not Hebrew) To Corinth (Greek not Hebrew) Luke was not a Hebrew or a Jew - He was a Greek physician

Rome 4,000 km from Jerusalem – prove to me that Hebrew was a common in a place with no Jews
Galcia – 2580hm away – prove to me that Hebrew was a common in a place with no Jews
Thessalonica – 2430Km away – prove to me that Hebrew was a common in a place with no Jews
Ephesis 1821Km away– prove to me that Hebrew was a common in a place with no Jews
Phillipi 2550 KM away – prove to me that Hebrew was a common in a place with no Jews
Corinth 3000Km away – prove to me that Hebrew was a common in a place with no Jews

Sorry Jeff's website is so big and different I can't find the relic. "He isn't here" a relic of a war in AD, hebrew doesn't have slang, proves the language was common, not rare. - IN ISRAEL
Only Mathew wrote to the Hebrews - IN ISRAEL
Swahili is spoken in Zimbabwe – does this prove that everyone in Australia speaks Swahili

D"Christianity does not teach your version of events
You pretend that you can avoid Proportional Punishment – just sleep though it
R" Well defend your view Dave, show me your texts

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.

All of us not exceptions – period (Zec 3)
Proportional Punishment or Divine Pardon – the only two options

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne. The books were opened, and another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what was written in the books, according to their deeds.

Even at the end – your DEEDs matter

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
This one text over rides all others, when you die, your body ceases to think.
Absolutely agree – the biology – the brain – your ability to animal think - STOPS

I suppose you say the ruwach / HS returns and speaks for you?
NO – you (your spirit – your real self) returns to God and speaks for yourself

you have an immortal spirit in the body that can speak without it's body? Prove this idea?

100 Bible Verses about Salvation Of The Soul - OpenBible.infohttps://www.openbible.info › topics › salvation_of_the_...
Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, ...

87 Bible Verses about Salvation - DailyVerses.nethttps://dailyverses.net › salvation
Bible Verses about Salvation - Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other… Truly my soul finds rest in God; my salvation comes from him…

bibleone.net/SOS_01.htm
Salvation of the Soul, Saving of the Life
By Arlen L. Chitwood

D"Because God the Father is beyond man’s ability to comprehend
Because God in the image of man –Christ – is something man can relate to
"beyond man’s ability to comprehend" so your theory cannot be explained?

Dec 12, 2021 9:46:17 GMT -5 Dave said:

www.adventist.org/trinity/
We have to remember that God is not confined by time, space, or matter. God is beyond our human comprehension. God is the “High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). This is one of the mysteries of the Christian faith. If we, as human beings, could explain the existence of God, He would not be God. If we could totally understand the mysteries of God, He would not be worthy of our worship.

I agree with your SDA doctrine - why donlt you?
Instead you force the Godhead into something you can understand as biology

It is called
Anthropomorphize Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
to attribute human form or personality to things not human.
I argue God is a trinity -
You argue god is man like with a a family of multiple members
Your own church doctrine says you teach a god that is not worthy of our worship

SO how does the Father die on a cross while the Father in heaven lives on?
SEE - you deny that God is God - you argue biology
Your satan or man did not kill God – your teaching is an abomination to Christianity
Jesus – the biological Son of man died upon the cross – dead as a doornail
Christ – the Spirit of God / God incarnate – returned to heaven
Why do you work so hard to deny scripture and the amazing gift of the cross
www.ephesus.org/about-us/what-we-believe/
THE EPHESUS SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH CORE BELIEFS
What We Believe
God (the eternal Son) became incarnate in Jesus Christ.
You do not even support your own church doctrine

So whose doctrine do you preach = Mormon / Latter-day Saints - Jehovah's Witnesses - Christian Science - Unification Church - Scientology – Dianetics
Do you really support these religions = why do you claim to be a SDA?
None of these groups even know of Ellen White

D"I teach my children to use a dictionary -
R" BIble says do not learn the traditions and precepts of men.

The Bible never teaches YOU TO PRETEND IGNORNACE
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist when the times are evil, and after you have done everything, to stand firm.
Eph 6:14 Stand firm then! Buckle the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness.

Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, keep alert with perseverance and supplication for all the kedoshim.
Praying in the spirit – why do you work so hard to deny Christianity

(google) What are the 7 spiritual gifts in the Bible?
The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.
The Bible never teache YOU TO PRETEND IGNORNACE

R" BIble says do not learn the traditions and precepts of men.
The Bible never teach YOU TO PRETEND IGNORNACE
Only the Beast wants to hide the truth – why do you work so hard to hide the Reality of the Archon?
It is obvious which god you defend

Why are so resistant to the discussion?
Why do you avoid ths topic at all cost?
Why do you tell others to be ignornat of reality
But also tell them that your satan is a god
Yes - I have two gods an two kings, what's wrong with that

Eph 6:12 specifically says the archon are our real stuggel
You spent months missrepresenting scripture trying to hide this truth

For more than two years you have absolutely failed to give me a pre-Roman source for your satan
For more than teo years you have failed to answer - why does your satan obey God - Or why is it a sin for an angel of the Lord to obey God
Still waiting

One the one hand - you call the Rpoman Catholic Church a Jesuit Satanic Cult - the anti-Christ you say
But on the other hand - you say the Roman doctrine of satan is the standard we should all live by
Jesus said - He did NOT come to change a thing
You claim everything changed

[Deleted]

Sorry Dave, I choose things I would like to hear more from you...

RP"I suppose you say the ruwach / HS returns and speaks for you?
D NO – you (your spirit – your real self) returns to God and speaks for yourself

Do you have a video that explains your real self returns to God after you die and speaks for yourself to God? Please allow the video to use Bible texts too, because this is weird to say the least.

So if your real self, can speak to God after you die without the need of the body, or lips or even a mind, or a brain, why than does the spirit of me, require a body to express me? Please explain. A short video would be nice.

Shalom

[Dave]

Sorry Dave, I choose things I would like to hear more from you...
Correct – you avoid answering questions that expose Rome as a satanic Cult
Correct – you avoid answer questions that expose holes in your theology
Correct – you deflect and change the subject

RP"I suppose you say the ruwach / HS returns and speaks for you?
D NO – you (your spirit – your real self) returns to God and speaks for yourself

Do you have a video that explains your real self returns to God after you die and speaks for yourself to God? Please allow the video to use Bible texts too, because this is weird to say the least.


So if your real self, can speak to God after you die without the need of the body, or lips or even a mind, or a brain, why than does the spirit of me, require a body to express me? Please explain. A short video would be nice.
No video necessary – you do not have ‘A Meaning of Life Answer’ – you do not understand your purpose – your specific role within creation

Man comes into this world to: Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1- Man comes by choice – Let me go Lord – I want to go
Eve knew she could not witness to the lower world from Eden – so she chose to follow he evangelic calling

2- Moses got his draft notice – you are sent for a specific purpose
Jonah – Balaam – did not have a choice – they were used to facilitate God Will / God’s Plan

37 Interesting Bible Verses About Predestination | Ryan Harthttps://www.ryanhart.org › predestination-bible-verses
Dec 20, 2018 — Romans 8:28-30 ... And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

25 Important Bible Verses About Predestination And Electionbiblereasons.com › predestination
Nov 15, 2021 — “A man may be so bold of his predestination, that he forget his conversation.

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Acts 2:23. 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men ...

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9 Bible verses about Predestined Peoplebible.knowing-jesus.com › topics › Predestined-...
Romans 8:29-30 - For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conform

3- Sometimes you are sent here to learn a lesson?

4- Sometimes you are sent here in fairness to you – if God used you to facilitate His Will / His Plan / His love / His judgment – was it your Free Will choice? NO

Little jimmy dying at age 2 – aborted babies – murdered children – war – accident
The sons and daughters of Job – pawns in another’s contest

You spoke of the sins of the father visited upon the generation of the father
OK – Mr. Lutheran – Mr. X-Catholic priest - Free Will – man’s fate is in man’s hands – all man’s responsibility
Therefore you preach some never have an equal opportunity for salvation

Calvinist Presbyterians differ by accepting scripture – some are predestined – as in the sins of the father
But in fairness – predestination must come with an equal opportunity for salvation

[Deleted]

Rp"So if your real self, can speak to God after you die without the need of the body, or lips or even a mind, or a brain, why than does the spirit of me, require a body to express me? Please explain. A short video would be nice.
D" No video necessary – you do not have ‘A Meaning of Life Answer’

D"37 Interesting Bible Verses About Predestination
R" you did not answer my question?

What has Predestination got to do with a spirit talking to God after the body has died and the spirit talks to God outside of its body after the body has died?

Try an answer my question, and a short video on this would be nice, not a video about predestination.

Sure GOD knows us before we are born, so. God is almighty. I am talking about your notion of your spirit talking after you die? Where is your data, as you term this?

SHalom

[Dave]

R" you did not answer my question?

Dec 12, 2021 17:37:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

So if your real self, can speak to God after you die without the need of the body, or lips or even a mind, or a brain, why than does the spirit of me, require a body to express me? Please explain.
No video necessary – you do not have ‘A Meaning of Life Answer’ – you do not understand your purpose – your specific role within creation

Man comes into this world to: Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

What has Predestination got to do with - why than does the spirit of me, require a body to express me
Answer - Man comes into this world to: Jer 1:5 [/quote]
Sometimes we come by our own choice – sometime we are sent for a purpose

I am talking about your notion of your spirit talking after you die? Where is your data, as you term this?
Rabbi Friedman - Journey of the Soul and the Afterlife
Your biggest comment taken away from that video was - LIFE LIVES
And - You totally rejected everything he said because he is a Jew - and Jews don't know their own language or theology