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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 12:40:51 GMT -5
Dave writes: Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
I have studied this passage with several types of Christian – none of them even see it as a Messianic-Jew or any Jew For us – this is a clear reference to Ezk 8 and the worship of Tammuz.
Greetings Rakovsky and Dave, your comments are interesting. I have no interest in the discussion, except Dave laments that no Christian group has a different take on Matt 25:15. We are lucky to have a Hebrew English translator, who was a prophet in the end of times, predicted by Scripture, to give us a different view of this verse and others like it. Rather than dismiss Ellen White as false, on the basis of bias, why not read her material just to see the matter for yourself? I would recommend three books, Steps to Christ, Desire of Ages, and the last 10 chapters of the Great Controversy.
If you still find the words unsatisfying, at least you made the effort to study them, rather than take somebody's else's bias. I was game enough to read lots of Gnostic writings, and even listen to Jewish videos. I also want to thank Dave for the time and privilege of these discussions. I found them helpful. While we do not agree, such discussions has allowed me to be more kinder with others who think differently to me.
In a nutshell, Jesus is a saviour and a king of earth, and he is a real estate man as well. He is preparing a mansion for us (John 14:1,2), the new city in heaven comes down to earth on a plain, near the mt of olives, (Zech 14:3) when Jesus touches the earth with his foot during the third coming to earth, after the 1000 year wedding feast is over. Once the new city is placed over the old city on exactly the same spot, the redeemed are inside the city, the wicked lost are outside the city. And one final judgement is given to the lost, so they understand why they are lost.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Interesting verse. Jesus is king over all the people over all the earth, with everybody alive for a short time.
Revelation adds the judgment here, but notice the Zech, prophecy:
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
The lost fall to the ground around the city to a state of nothingness forever.
In Rev we have this story adding to Zech:
Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Satan thinks he can get the lost to battle once more, this is why the war weapons are so engineered today, to fight Jesus and GOD and the city. Satan thinks he can war again and take the city by force. No. Sadly the lost perish, including Satan.
Re 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Added to the story is a final judgement for the lost. All humans see the salvation of Jesus, and come to see why they chose to be lost.
Re 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This new real estate is a new city with new land for the redeemed.
The current news with the coronavirus is a one world government thing where the rich merchants of the earth want to rule as the ten kings of earth, with Satan as their leader.
Jas 5:1 ¶ Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
Notice such kings oppose the redeemed:
Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
We are all going to lose our things, nearly our lives as Job did, because the rich men oppose us, Satan opposes us, and this religion opposes God too. Just as God opposed Baalim, an evil prophet, so Satan opposes GOD as a evil angel who sinned long ago and started a war in heaven. Indeed he even tries to finish with a war on earth, but fails.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (KJV)
The last message of James is nice. We are to encourage our brothers to still to the Hebrew scriptures and truth of Jesus, to be healed of disease, encouraged and filled with joy. If Job endured, so can we, supporting Jesus who will support us back.
Shalom my friends.
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Post by Dave on Mar 11, 2020 11:46:51 GMT -5
Very interesting read Dave. Reference to parallel with Azetecs is interesting. Do you understand what happened on 12/21/2012 Would love to see your documentation on tactical Nukes being used in Kuwait (other than 30mm depleted uranium anti-tank rounds fired from the A10 – used for their hardness not radioactivity – which is depleted) Enviable consequence of being crowded together China is ripe for disease because they mix, people, birds, and pigs together Chinese wet markets now bring all sorts of animal and they by-products under one unregulated environments Cities today are populated into the millions – 10% disease rate = a lot of people – pestilence Count the number of nations on the planet that are food importers Look at the area radiated by Chernobyl NHPs have taken millions of acers of food producing lands out of service The Pacific is poison “Absolutely Every One” – 15 Out of 15 – Bluefin Tuna Tested In California Waters Contaminated with Fukushima Radiation www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-05-29/%E2%80%9Cabsolutely-every-one%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%93-15-out-15-%E2%80%93-bluefin-tuna-tested-california-waters-coWorld agricultural system have been pushed beyond normal capacity with the used of oil bases herbicides, pesticides, and now GMOs - one global drought season = food collapse One world energy / oil crises – say the Middle East was shut down for a few months Transporting existing food to the poorest importing countries would be problematic This is all – consistent with the decline phase of any organism in a closed ecosystem A collapse of the system and a global reset of the population is enevidible - the system is no longer denying it, just trying to postpone it. My fear - is that man is at a level of technology and anxiety - that the next reset will catastropic enough to cause our own exstinction 50 years after a world wide nuclear exchange and a dozen nuclear reactor failures == Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 14:26:15 GMT -5
Yes Revelation 8 sounds like nukes poisoning a 1/3 of our world, already happenings as you show.
"My fear - is that man is at a level of technology and anxiety - that the next reset will catastrophic enough to cause our own extinction" yes
I would disagree PNG as a importer of food? Yes rice and fish, but they eat all their other food from the land.
The Kuwait utube videos are no longer on the www. They lasted only 2 weeks or so. Gov filters stuff these days.
You don't see 5G and corona electricity virus spread as a possibility?
SHalom
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Post by rakovsky on Mar 11, 2020 18:04:05 GMT -5
Dave, It is nice hearing from you and that you watched the documentary.
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Post by Dave on Mar 12, 2020 13:14:35 GMT -5
Rakovsky – of course I watched, intently with note paper and pen in hand. I crave to hear alternative views. All of us are sheltered by our own cultures. Your video made me think – caused some personal introspection of my own. The first thing I did was research the Christian Zionist movement as your video presented.
To my surprise – there are some major ‘christian’ leaders that push the – it’s Biblical therefore the State of Israel is justified.
Not only is this not my opinion – having it presented as the main stream of the heart of America was shocking to an American of the heartland
I am not sure how it works in your culture – but in the American culture all leaders (religious as well as political) are followed by ideological agreement
Perhaps, at one time in history leaders got more respect. The Kings words were law. Men went to war for their King – their countries – or their God. If a King said a thing – it was not only fact and true, but beyond reproach Men would lay down their lives to protect their leaders In many religious camps – whatever the leader says – is fact, is true, and beyond approach Men leaid down their lives protecting their leaders – both from the Pope and for the Pope
99% of Americans – never trust their leaders to be honest or actual fact based – and it has been a long time since we voluntarily stuck our necks out of our leaders
I am a ‘get off my lawn conservative’ – I voted Trump Not because he represented everything I believe or even want – but of the choice available he represented enough ideological agreement with my views
In every American town there is always a selection of church buildings to choose from – we attend the one that we may not totally agree with – but it represents enough ideological agreement with our personal theology to be palatable
ONE WAY religious experience Because of the selection of Catholicism available (Protestantism) we have all had our share of one-way-ism
Therefore – as an end result of the 2000 years of Roman Christendom – we are overwhelmed by all the different ‘one ways-ism’ that it becomes obvious that any religious movement that preaches only ‘one way’ / ‘their way’ seems arrogant and even cultish
The Creator created the entire globe and any holistic theology must include the entire globe Roman Christendom is selfish – if it is all about Rome – or even if it is all about Israel – what of the rest of the world – what of China or India
I can see how someone can make the argument that Islam is a part of the theology because of the struggle over the Holy Lands – it takes two to struggle
Your video made a big point about ethnic cleansing by Israel Ethnic cleansing by Israel is the request to move over Ethnic cleansing by Islam is the complete and utter destruction of the Israeli State and the Israeli people
It is not an honest argument against Israel
American Evangelism – the do gooders that want to save everyone There must be programs available to save the lost souls – help the homeless – feed the needy – and save everyone
IMO – Christ sent his disciple out to teach – if the people don’t like what we have to teach – walk away and leave them to their own ignorance
IMO – I do not feel obligated to supply housing and education for the homeless and stupid – just so they can return to the street corner begging
How to read prophesy A big difference between Judaism and Christianity is in how to read prophesy A Christian is arrogant enough to be able to read prophesy forward – predicting dates – but they always end up WRONG
Example – Robert here is a Seven Day Adventist (or has those roots originally) That entire movement was started because a Methodist Preacher – who teaches a method Read prophesy forward and 1834 was supposed to be the 2nd Coming Hundreds of people sold all their possession and waited with him in the Utah desert 1834 is known as the year of Great Disappointment
A Jew would NEVER be so arrogant as to pretend he alone understands God’s plan Why did not Rabbis sit around awaiting Jesus Christ Why didn’t the Rabbi recognize Jesus Christ
BECAUSE – it didn’t become clear from prophesy until after Christ was crucified
The State of Israel only becomes prophetic after the fact
All those years of being cast all over the world – no one ever understood Ezk 38 or Jer 5 After 1948 – those passages again appear to be “Accurate” and “Prophetic”
This is why I am not a date setter – even tho I firmly believe in my own heart that the Global Financial system is doomed for a global readjustment – that readjustment will not survive military conflict – a military conflict fought as a last desperation – is extremely volatile in an area of 1000s of nuclear weapons – which are dirty weapons
Nuclear Dirty Weapons Just look at what Chernobyl did for the USSR
Look at what Fukushima has done for Japan – 100 years from now there will be no Japanese Both from contamination and a birth rate far less than the death rate of its people
God’s hand on History Part of the Gnostic approach is to evaluate all the data possible – rather than belong to any ‘one-way-ism’
America’s role in Prophesy – IMO – America has provided the peace that makes Armageddon possible Assuming that Armageddon is the final military style conflict before the 2nd Coming Armageddon is located – the West Bank of Israel Curious – what is the conflict centered upon today – the West Bank of Israel
All through history there were educated countries dominating weaker nations Wars and conflict was the normal human existence Since America became the world policeman – the world has been at peace (more than normal) Even in the Middle-East – since WWII there have been less military conflicts than at any other time in history
Allowing a build-up of technology of war
God’s hands on the money The Bretton Woods Agreement was a financial alliance American’s are told the USSR fell because President Reagan outspent them on Star Wars When actually, I think history bears out that it was the cleanup of Chernobyl In America we have long worried about ‘who was going to pay our debt?’ Look at the EU Budget this year – France is the best positioned to survive the Global reset Every other EU member is crapping their pants about the loss of UK’s contribution – ¼-1/3 of the entire budget – Macron in France is all for spending imaginary future money debt
WHY – because these countries already know – no one is ever repaying the debt – it will reset / collapse
Allowing a build-up of the oil-dollar A retraction of the money or the oil (Energy Markets) could collapse a country – the whole point of sanctions
Why don’t we want Iran to have a Nuke – because as a democracy the people have a voice in the decision to use it – in a theocracy not so. The theocracy of Iran has made it clear they are on a mission to eliminate Israel – because it is Israel – then Saudi Arabia for being a whore to the West
Islamic predictions do not center of Iran bombing Israel – then center on Iran bombing Mecca because the Saudi’s have her a whore to the West – destroying Saudi’s hold on Islam More than one Komanihi has said publically – the destruction of Saudi Arabia would be like saying ‘Good-Bye to bad Rubbish’
Why would ‘Christian America’ defend Mecca? – an act of postponement – because when it happens – global recession – and collapse
Does this pending collapse have a correlation with 1948 Israel? As I look out my window I see God everywhere and His hand on everything I live at the center of the Roman 1 prophesy - my governor is gay and married A democratic presidental hopeful , Butagedge, is gay and married Rome 1 sure looks revieled to me and my culture - my time
I suppose it depends on if you belive humanity can survive a WWIII nuclear exchange of any scale EMP weapons can send entire nation back to the stone age over night Nuclear radiation is already impacting health on a global scale - how much can we stand
The Aztecs read believed that Cortez was a white beadred god that came to cause the end of the world 50 years latter - no Aztecs we left
What would modern humanity look like 20-30-50 years after a nuclear winter? Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven fallen unto the earth: and there was given to him the key of the pit of the abyss. Rev 9:2 And he opened the pit of the abyss; and there went up a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Rev 9:3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth; and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Rev 9:4 And it was said unto them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads. Rev 9:5 And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when it striketh a man. Rev 9:6 And in those days men shall seek death, and shall in no wise find it; and they shall desire to die, and death fleeth from them.
I think of this passage as I walked the halls of hospital over my career So many still here physically and gone mentally - what a gift this modern medicine?
Why won't all this biohazard contamination matter as Christ sets up the New Kingdom
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Christians teach this is a change into something we are not yet Gnostics see this a s a restoration to what we once were - like Adam
Gnostic - what was Adam like?
The First Book of Adam and Eve - Chapter VIII THEN Adam wept and said, "O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us." 2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish." 3 When Adam and Eve had heard these words from God, they went their way; praising and worshipping Him with a sorrowful heart.
The "Bright Nature" of man is taken away. - Now restored and we can see as in 2 Kings 6:17-20 - Elisha servant seeing God's army Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36 and the transfiguration of Jesus
An awakening to a larger reality -
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Post by rakovsky on Mar 12, 2020 14:16:54 GMT -5
Are you familiar with Christian refutations of "Christian Zionism"? Thank you for perspective – It is not my perspective and it is always educational to look at opinions from several sides I haven’t considered for myself if I fit the “Christian Zionist” label – perhaps I do However, as a Christian within America I was surprised at how I/we were misrepresented in entirety I have spent several hours reviewing the “Christian Zionist” propaganda, by some major named ‘christian’ leaders, and they do say some outrageous stuff – However – it does not accurately represent the American corner church mentality I grew up in church in the Mid-West, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan. I went to school and church in Massachusetts. I can even say I spent some time at the Episcopal Seminary in Alexandria (Wash DC). I have lived and churched in Arizona, Colorado, Washington State, and the County of Japan, and my wife was raised catholic in Mindanao, Philippines. At the end of my career, I traveled for dot.gov and my family churched in several US states. In all this exposure over my 64 years – in all my days of Sunday School and Bible Study NEVER have I heard anything like the “Christian Zionist” presented The nearest Messianic-Jewish group to me is 50 miles away – In all my interaction with them, I doubt they are “Christian or even Jewish Zionist” – but I have never asked 1- Your video paints the “Christian Zionist” position as – it Biblical therefore State of Israel Therefore violence and in-humane conduct by Israel is justified IMO – most American ‘Christians’ would be offended by this Perhaps this was the argument in 1947. I was not a part of that argument – were you? No-longer the reality of the argument. OK. It sounds like you are saying that you don't consider yourself a religion-based Apologist for Israeli policies and actions, as if the government of the Israeli state was like the Vatican. You would want to define more exactly what it means to "support", because it sounds like you are generalizing for the whole American people. For instance, does it mean that they support there being a state there set up the way that it is? That they don't want it invaded? Or that they want to support it financially, militarily, and believe strongly that the way that its political system has worked and its policies are right? For example, you can "support" America in 1850, but does that mean that you support the way that it is set up, including slavery or its wars with the Native Americans and with Mexico? If you base supporting the state based on the Torah, then it creates lots of problems. One problem is that the Torah says that Israel is supposed to be rather theocratic in terms of observance. But Israeli official state observance of Halakha is not very theocratic. A second problem is that the Torah apparently says that obeying Torah leads to worldly success for the state, whereas disobedience leads to ruination, like plagues and military defeat. So if you are going to say that the state's success should be applauded because it shows divine favor, then you just made a big political-theological problem for yourself, because then you are stuck with how to deal with tragedies like European pogroms, the Holocaust, the defeat in the Yom Kippur War, etc. etc. You have chained yourself down with your reasoning as if tragedies are also supposed to be applauded and supported because they show God's will. A third problem is that when you are dealing with the Old Testament, you are dealing with a pre-Christian paradigm and aren't taking that into account. So for instance, back in 1000 BC, the Israelites were in conflict with neighboring other nations and groups who did not believe in Israel's God. But in 1000 AD, you are dealing with religious communities, rabbis, Christians, Muslims, who all have a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish descendants and who all profess faith in the God of Abraham and Moses. So for instance, in your response to Hank Hanegraaff's presentation, your reply comes up against each of these problems: For instance, Ezekiel is talking about Israel in 530 BC, which was based on Torah observance and was in conflict with pagan non-Jewish neighbors, and at a time when the Israelite ethnic and religious divide of the Christian period had not yet occurred. Plus, Ezekiel in his prophecy in Ezk 37-38 when he talks about Israelites coming together again is talking about an apocalyptic future period when the Resurrection happens and the Israelites are all under the Messiah. So these are two very different paradigms and groups - Ezekiel's in 550 BC and the spiritual Israel of rabbis, Christians, and Muslims in 2000 AD.
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Post by Dave on Mar 12, 2020 16:36:42 GMT -5
I am generalizing heart land America – because I am one and have co-existed as one for 64 years I have been fortunate enough to have gotten around
Politically – I am aware of the Moral Majority Movement I didn’t really realize they were also the Christian Zionist group until now This has always been a fringe movement – not mainstream It is seen by most Americans as do gooders trying to tell us how to behave in our own bedrooms
Support for a democracy – the American attitude Before WWI – Kings and Queen rule the world and the people were cannon fodder After WWII – The American alliance has respect for any people that choose to rule themselves If the government is population driven then two different peoples / populations can have a conversation
I was sort of involved in Viet Nam – under the French – the government was elected by the people Leaders could change at the will of the people – North Viet Nam was Communist – which all American see as oppressive and again treats the people like cannon fodder
If the people of the land are able to realistically pick their own leaders – then then hope is that the leaders will be pro-people
Israel has free and open elections – it is lop-sided YES! – But the people have a voice Islam and Communism – replace the King and Queen of old with single party leaders and religious authoritarianism –
Americans support Israel from the heartland because it is democracy - it has nothing to do with theology
For 20 years American have wanted out of the Middle East – Trump is delivering
People make a big prophetic deal of Trump moving the Embassy to Jerusalem In the heartland we LOVE Trumps decision – and that also has nothing to do with theology For 40 years America has promise to move the Embassy to Jerusalem – but withheld out of consideration – as a concession to the Palestinians – as part of the peace process – each offer rejected by the Palestinians Trump comes along – makes an offer with another concession to leave the Embassy alone – again the Palestinians said no – so Trump moved the Embassy – the result of 40 years of concessions that go nowhere
Here is the next biggest world shock coming from the heartland of America The fall of both North and South Korea and why the South will ultimately win
Over the last 10 year America has spent one trillion dollars defending South Korea Over the last 50 years nothing has changed Trump goes to North Korea acting like a hard ass In return- Moon starts reunification talks with Kim – completely undermining Trumps diplomacy To satify Kim – Moon pulled out of the shared Japan, USA, South Korea Intelligence Program In return Trump and most of heartland American’s walked away Why should we spend another dime to protect them if they are not 100% in our pocket
What will happen – heartland America says – let Kim invade the South Look at what happened to East Germany – when the East saw the liberty and wealth of the West It all fell to the West Look at the satellite states of the USSR – most fall Westward What will happen when the North Korean soldiers hang out in South Korea for long? It will be the end of the Kim regime – and again free market capitalism will win the people If America pulled out every stick of military would Kim invade? He also knows the inevidible outcome The DMZ is there to keep his own people in - a vacation from North Korea is called an ESCAPE
Agreed - Does the average America go around thinking of what is Biblicial - NO and Biblicial guiadance is hardly our bases for our voting practices
Israelites coming together again – YES! – and this could happen on more than just one level 1- Christians united with State of Israel 2- IMO – Caucasians represent the gene pool of the lost tribes of Israel The union between Christian West and Jewish Israel This is the remarriage of Israel to Judea This could also be the gathering required from all the nations
an apocalyptic future – YES! When other prophesies also are fulfilled like Ezk 47
That must happen before – actually just before - when the Resurrection happens and the Israelites are all under the Messiah.
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Post by rakovsky on Mar 12, 2020 22:34:49 GMT -5
Good discussion.
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